Messages in vintageHO group. Page 1 of 1.

Group: vintageHO Message: 12838 From: Chris B Date: 1/1/2010
Subject: Crescent kit E unit on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 12839 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/1/2010
Subject: Re: Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
Group: vintageHO Message: 12840 From: jim heckard Date: 1/1/2010
Subject: Re: Crescent kit E unit on ebay [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12841 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/2/2010
Subject: Re: Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
Group: vintageHO Message: 12842 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/2/2010
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12843 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/2/2010
Subject: Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12844 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 1/2/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12845 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/3/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12846 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/3/2010
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 12847 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12848 From: RalphB Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12849 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific HO 50 foot mech. reefer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12850 From: RalphB Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific HO 50 foot mech. reefer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12851 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Protoype color scheme question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12852 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12853 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12854 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12855 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12856 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12857 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12858 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12859 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12860 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12861 From: Wobbly913 Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12862 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12863 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12864 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12865 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12866 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12867 From: Larry Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12868 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12869 From: Donald D Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12870 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Group: vintageHO Message: 12871 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12872 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12873 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12874 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12875 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12876 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12877 From: jay matz Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12878 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12879 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, rotary dumper
Group: vintageHO Message: 12880 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, rotary dumper
Group: vintageHO Message: 12881 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, rotary dumper
Group: vintageHO Message: 12882 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, rotary dumper
Group: vintageHO Message: 12883 From: madchemep2@aol.com Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12884 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/7/2010
Subject: Varney Plastic rolling stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 12885 From: Karl Peters Date: 1/7/2010
Subject: Car Dumper in Kalmbach book.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12886 From: Garry Spear Date: 1/8/2010
Subject: Re: Globe and Athearn All metal Tanks Cars: HERCULES & MOBILGAS
Group: vintageHO Message: 12887 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/9/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12888 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/9/2010
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12889 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/9/2010
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12890 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/9/2010
Subject: Sure am glad for HOSeeker's data
Group: vintageHO Message: 12891 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/10/2010
Subject: Clean-up work
Group: vintageHO Message: 12892 From: DOM ST.JOHN Date: 1/10/2010
Subject: Re: Sure am glad for HOSeeker's data
Group: vintageHO Message: 12893 From: comox11 Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Red Ball Side dump Hopper/Stone car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12894 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Side dump Hopper/Stone car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12895 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Varney caboose question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12896 From: comox11 Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Side dump Hopper/Stone car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12897 From: toytrain13 Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
Group: vintageHO Message: 12898 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Side dump Hopper/Stone car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12899 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
Group: vintageHO Message: 12900 From: ottsm Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12901 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12902 From: Denny Anspach Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Varney caboose question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12903 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Varney caboose question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12904 From: Jeff Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12905 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Varney caboose question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12906 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Varney caboose question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12907 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12908 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Re: Varney caboose question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12909 From: ottsm Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12910 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12911 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Backshopping old brass steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 12912 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12913 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12914 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Group: vintageHO Message: 12915 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12916 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12917 From: Carl Neste Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney caboose question
Group: vintageHO Message: 12918 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
Group: vintageHO Message: 12919 From: Richard White Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
Group: vintageHO Message: 12920 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 1/14/2010
Subject: Re: Backshopping old brass steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 12921 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/14/2010
Subject: Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
Group: vintageHO Message: 12922 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12923 From: John Hagen Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM
Group: vintageHO Message: 12924 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12925 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Looking for.....
Group: vintageHO Message: 12926 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: Looking for.....
Group: vintageHO Message: 12927 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 12928 From: Garry Spear Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: FS: OSCAR PIKER Plus
Group: vintageHO Message: 12929 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12930 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12931 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: Looking for.....
Group: vintageHO Message: 12932 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12933 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: FS: OSCAR PIKER Plus
Group: vintageHO Message: 12934 From: ho6471trains Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: D&RG Western Stock cars, gondolas and Caboose Early 1900's
Group: vintageHO Message: 12935 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12936 From: Denny Anspach Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12937 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Beware the Cat
Group: vintageHO Message: 12938 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12939 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12940 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Group: vintageHO Message: 12941 From: Garry Spear Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: FS: OSCAR PIKER Plus
Group: vintageHO Message: 12942 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12943 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Group: vintageHO Message: 12944 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Group: vintageHO Message: 12945 From: glutrain Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Group: vintageHO Message: 12946 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/17/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Group: vintageHO Message: 12947 From: Fred Stevens K2FRD Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Group: vintageHO Message: 12948 From: chianrsteele Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12949 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12950 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Group: vintageHO Message: 12951 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12952 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Athearn 0-6-0 photos needed, please
Group: vintageHO Message: 12953 From: Wobbly913 Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12954 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12955 From: jim heckard Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12956 From: trainliker Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Group: vintageHO Message: 12957 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12958 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12959 From: jim heckard Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12960 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12961 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12962 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: And another thing I'm looking for......
Group: vintageHO Message: 12963 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Athearn HiF parts still available
Group: vintageHO Message: 12964 From: jim heckard Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12965 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12966 From: Askerberg Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Recent acquisitions
Group: vintageHO Message: 12967 From: jim heckard Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12968 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12969 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0 [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 12970 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12971 From: John Hagen Date: 1/19/2010
Subject: Re: CM
Group: vintageHO Message: 12972 From: jim heckard Date: 1/19/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12973 From: chianrsteele Date: 1/19/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12974 From: John H Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12975 From: Tom Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Penn Line Crusader
Group: vintageHO Message: 12976 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12977 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12978 From: jbark76 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 12979 From: jbark76 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: And another thing I'm looking for......
Group: vintageHO Message: 12980 From: jbark76 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12981 From: jim heckard Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 12982 From: corv9 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 12983 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 12984 From: jim heckard Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 12985 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 12986 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 12987 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 12988 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12989 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 12990 From: John Barlow Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12991 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...
Group: vintageHO Message: 12992 From: Russ Shiel Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12993 From: jbark76 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12994 From: jbark76 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 12995 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 12996 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 12997 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12998 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 12999 From: jim heckard Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 13000 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 13001 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 13002 From: jim heckard Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Switch Machimes
Group: vintageHO Message: 13003 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Ambroid Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13004 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 13005 From: Michael Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Soldering track together?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13006 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Soldering track together?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13007 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Group: vintageHO Message: 13008 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Mantua Couplers (Picture Attached)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13009 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Couplers (Picture Attached)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13010 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Couplers (Picture Attached) [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13011 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Couplers (Picture Attached)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13012 From: Karl Peters Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: BOYS LIFE Model Railroad
Group: vintageHO Message: 13013 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: BOYS LIFE Model Railroad
Group: vintageHO Message: 13014 From: jim heckard Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Ebay item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13015 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13016 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13017 From: jim heckard Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13018 From: oljoe@bex.net Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13019 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13020 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13021 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13022 From: jim heckard Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13023 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13024 From: trainm7 Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13025 From: jim heckard Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13026 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 1/27/2010
Subject: eBay item 250565385531
Group: vintageHO Message: 13027 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/27/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531
Group: vintageHO Message: 13028 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/27/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531
Group: vintageHO Message: 13029 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/27/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531
Group: vintageHO Message: 13030 From: Robert Driggers Date: 1/27/2010
Subject: Smoke box front
Group: vintageHO Message: 13031 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531
Group: vintageHO Message: 13032 From: jim heckard Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: keeping records
Group: vintageHO Message: 13033 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: Re: keeping records
Group: vintageHO Message: 13034 From: Garry Spear Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: FS: ARDEN Baggage and BINKLEY Peerless Beer Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13035 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: eBay item 250565385531
Group: vintageHO Message: 13036 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13037 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13038 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13039 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13040 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13041 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13042 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Who made this loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 13043 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Second set of photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 13044 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Second set of photos [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13045 From: jim heckard Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Second set of photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 13046 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Second set of photos - Who made it
Group: vintageHO Message: 13047 From: jim heckard Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Chuck's Unknown Consy
Group: vintageHO Message: 13048 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Second set of photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 13049 From: jim heckard Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: me
Group: vintageHO Message: 13050 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: me
Group: vintageHO Message: 13051 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Chuck's Unknown Consy [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13052 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13053 From: John Hagen Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13054 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13055 From: Jim Waterman Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: eBay item 250565385531
Group: vintageHO Message: 13056 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Second set of photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 13057 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531
Group: vintageHO Message: 13058 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13059 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13060 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13061 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13062 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13063 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13064 From: George Frey Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13065 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13066 From: George Frey Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13067 From: orangetrainman Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: more E-BAY
Group: vintageHO Message: 13068 From: George Frey Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: MORE EBAY
Group: vintageHO Message: 13069 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Varney freight cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13070 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: MORE EBAY
Group: vintageHO Message: 13071 From: Askerberg Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: 8 Ball Mogul question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13072 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13073 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Who was looking for a plastic Varney B unit?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13074 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: Who was looking for a plastic Varney B unit?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13075 From: nvrr49 Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: more E-BAY
Group: vintageHO Message: 13076 From: CinderCrusher Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: 8 Ball Mogul question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13077 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: 8 Ball Mogul question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13078 From: jim heckard Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: 8 Ball Mogul question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13079 From: CinderCrusher Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: 8 Ball Mogul question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13080 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: 1932K Varney tender question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13081 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/2/2010
Subject: eBay item 250565385531 - They have arived!
Group: vintageHO Message: 13082 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531 - They have arived!
Group: vintageHO Message: 13083 From: jim heckard Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Sean's diesels.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13084 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Varney F3B
Group: vintageHO Message: 13085 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Sean's diesels.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13086 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 13087 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Sean's diesels.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13088 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Sean's diesels.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13089 From: jim heckard Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: check these
Group: vintageHO Message: 13090 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: Sean's diesels.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13091 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: check these
Group: vintageHO Message: 13092 From: jim heckard Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: check these
Group: vintageHO Message: 13093 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: PRR postal/baggage decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 13094 From: Robert Driggers Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Draw bar screws
Group: vintageHO Message: 13095 From: Wally Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Parts for an Athearn/Lionel 0591 Rectifier New Haven Electric locomo
Group: vintageHO Message: 13096 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: check these
Group: vintageHO Message: 13097 From: jim heckard Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: Parts for an Athearn/Lionel 0591 Rectifier New Haven Electric lo
Group: vintageHO Message: 13098 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: PRR postal/baggage decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 13099 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 2/5/2010
Subject: Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 13100 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/5/2010
Subject: Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7
Group: vintageHO Message: 13101 From: Charlie Date: 2/5/2010
Subject: Re: Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 13102 From: George Frey Date: 2/5/2010
Subject: Re: Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 13103 From: jim heckard Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7
Group: vintageHO Message: 13104 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Train show
Group: vintageHO Message: 13105 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Megow's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13106 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13107 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13108 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13109 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13110 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13111 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Another question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13112 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13113 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: Another question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13114 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: Megows
Group: vintageHO Message: 13115 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: Megows [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13116 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: Megows [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13117 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: Megows [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13118 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13119 From: jim heckard Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13120 From: Garry Spear Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Ols kit on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13121 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13122 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13123 From: Chris B Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: ebay listing for DMC A&B E units
Group: vintageHO Message: 13124 From: trainliker Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: ebay listing for DMC A&B E units
Group: vintageHO Message: 13125 From: jim heckard Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: ebay listing for DMC A&B E units
Group: vintageHO Message: 13126 From: jim heckard Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: ebay listing for DMC A&B E units
Group: vintageHO Message: 13127 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Flatcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13128 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13129 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: Flatcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13130 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13131 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: Flatcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13132 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Megow -- and pre-War Cataloging -- and the War Effort
Group: vintageHO Message: 13133 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Megow [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13134 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13135 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13136 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13137 From: Bill Daley Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13138 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13139 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13140 From: herb1013 Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13141 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13142 From: ron plyler Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13143 From: herb1013 Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13144 From: nvrr49 Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13145 From: Bill Daley Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13146 From: RalphB Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 13147 From: bob d Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 13148 From: bob d Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13149 From: Don Grant Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13150 From: Charlie Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 13151 From: Matthew Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Pony Tail Bands -- was: Re: Athern Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13152 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13153 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (
Group: vintageHO Message: 13154 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 13155 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13156 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (
Group: vintageHO Message: 13157 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13158 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13159 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Steve
Group: vintageHO Message: 13160 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: Steve
Group: vintageHO Message: 13161 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13162 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13163 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13164 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13165 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13166 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13167 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: MRH Newsletter Available Now Free
Group: vintageHO Message: 13168 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Latest project
Group: vintageHO Message: 13169 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Latest project
Group: vintageHO Message: 13170 From: wetabor Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13171 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13172 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13173 From: Lester Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13174 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Card-Sided Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13175 From: roger Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13176 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13177 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13178 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Mantua sides and cars Was: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort
Group: vintageHO Message: 13179 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13180 From: Larry Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13181 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13182 From: George Frey Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13183 From: jim heckard Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13184 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13185 From: jim heckard Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: : Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13186 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13187 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13188 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13189 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13190 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13191 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13192 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13193 From: Bigdaddy Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: I am looking for an Athearn Black Widow Shell, F7A.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13194 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13195 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Paper Side-Printing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13196 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13197 From: Larry Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Side-Printing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13198 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Varney 2nd version reefer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13199 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Cardstock and wood caboose
Group: vintageHO Message: 13200 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Side-Printing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13201 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13202 From: wetabor Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13203 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Cardstock and wood caboose
Group: vintageHO Message: 13204 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13205 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Cardstock and wood caboose
Group: vintageHO Message: 13206 From: George Frey Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Side-Printing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13207 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Cardstock and wood caboose
Group: vintageHO Message: 13208 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Side-Printing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13209 From: George Frey Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Side-Printing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13210 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: : Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13211 From: RalphB Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: : Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13212 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Super Scale 3-Power B-B loco kit? Was: Central Valley Oil-Electrics
Group: vintageHO Message: 13213 From: jim heckard Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: : Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13214 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13215 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Varney 2nd version reefer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13216 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Varney 2nd version reefer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13217 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13218 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13219 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: MEGOW Reporting Numbers
Group: vintageHO Message: 13220 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Varney 2nd version reefer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13221 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13222 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13223 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13224 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13225 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13226 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13227 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13228 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13229 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13230 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: MEGOW Reporting Numbers
Group: vintageHO Message: 13231 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13232 From: mrrwarehouse Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- When Did Red Ball Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13233 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13234 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- When Did Red Ball Was Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13235 From: Garry Spear Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Varney G3 Gondola Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13236 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney G3 Gondola Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13237 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
Group: vintageHO Message: 13238 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Open Apology to Garry, was: Varney G3 Gondola Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13239 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Varney Boxes - a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13240 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Effort
Group: vintageHO Message: 13241 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Effort
Group: vintageHO Message: 13242 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Boxes - a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13243 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Boxes - a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13244 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War...
Group: vintageHO Message: 13245 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Boxes - a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13246 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Boxes - a question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13247 From: wetabor Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War...
Group: vintageHO Message: 13248 From: Garry Spear Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War...
Group: vintageHO Message: 13249 From: Lester Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War...
Group: vintageHO Message: 13250 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Group: vintageHO Message: 13251 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- Wa
Group: vintageHO Message: 13252 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- Wa
Group: vintageHO Message: 13253 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Eff
Group: vintageHO Message: 13254 From: Russ Shiel Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Group: vintageHO Message: 13255 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War...
Group: vintageHO Message: 13256 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Group: vintageHO Message: 13257 From: RalphB Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Different box, old instructions, but....
Group: vintageHO Message: 13258 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Eff
Group: vintageHO Message: 13259 From: Wally Weart Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Strombecker cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13260 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Strombecker cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13261 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Eff
Group: vintageHO Message: 13262 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Strombecker cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13263 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13264 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13265 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Group: vintageHO Message: 13266 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Group: vintageHO Message: 13267 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Group: vintageHO Message: 13268 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Group: vintageHO Message: 13269 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Jordan Spreader
Group: vintageHO Message: 13270 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Jordan Spreader
Group: vintageHO Message: 13271 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Group: vintageHO Message: 13272 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Car...
Group: vintageHO Message: 13273 From: jay matz Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Jordan Spreader
Group: vintageHO Message: 13274 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Jordan Spreader
Group: vintageHO Message: 13275 From: mrncartoon Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: WTB: Plans for Red Ball HO Scale Water Tank
Group: vintageHO Message: 13276 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Group: vintageHO Message: 13277 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Strombecker cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13278 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Group: vintageHO Message: 13279 From: rayzef Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Strombecker cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13280 From: Dr. Lester D. Morris Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Group: vintageHO Message: 13281 From: Garry Spear Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Laconia Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13282 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Group: vintageHO Message: 13283 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Car...
Group: vintageHO Message: 13284 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Car...
Group: vintageHO Message: 13285 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 13286 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: Card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 13287 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: Laconia Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13288 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Group: vintageHO Message: 13289 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 13290 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 13291 From: Chris B Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13292 From: jim heckard Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update [7 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13293 From: Chris B Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13294 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Greater Houston Train Show
Group: vintageHO Message: 13295 From: Askerberg Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13296 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Card sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 13297 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: HOwen
Group: vintageHO Message: 13298 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: HOwen
Group: vintageHO Message: 13299 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13300 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13301 From: John H Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13302 From: bob d Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13303 From: sottguy Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13304 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13305 From: sottguy Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13306 From: sottguy Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13307 From: Chris B Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13308 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: American Beauty PRR "Florida Cars"
Group: vintageHO Message: 13309 From: Jeff Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13310 From: jim heckard Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: American Beauty PRR "Florida Cars"
Group: vintageHO Message: 13311 From: John H Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
Group: vintageHO Message: 13312 From: Russ Shiel Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Glory Trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 13313 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: American Beauty PRR "Florida Cars"
Group: vintageHO Message: 13314 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: American Beauty PRR "Florida Cars"
Group: vintageHO Message: 13315 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13316 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13317 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13318 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13319 From: jim heckard Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13320 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13321 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13322 From: Riverboy Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13323 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13324 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13325 From: Riverboy Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13326 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13327 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13328 From: Riverboy Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13329 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13330 From: trainliker Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13331 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13332 From: Riverboy Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13333 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13334 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13335 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13336 From: jim heckard Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13337 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13338 From: Chris B Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13339 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13340 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13341 From: Chris B Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13342 From: Riverboy Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13343 From: Fred Krause Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13344 From: RalphB Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Varney "Casey Jones"
Group: vintageHO Message: 13345 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
Group: vintageHO Message: 13346 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
Group: vintageHO Message: 13347 From: Dale Smith Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13348 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13349 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13350 From: Dale Smith Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13351 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13352 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13353 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13354 From: jim heckard Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: It's over
Group: vintageHO Message: 13355 From: rcjge Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13356 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Mantua Portable Uncouplers - Trade Offer
Group: vintageHO Message: 13357 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Group: vintageHO Message: 13358 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Group: vintageHO Message: 13359 From: Nelson B Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13360 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Group: vintageHO Message: 13361 From: RalphB Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
Group: vintageHO Message: 13362 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Group: vintageHO Message: 13363 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13364 From: Dale Smith Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13365 From: Howard R Garner Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Ebay item of interest
Group: vintageHO Message: 13366 From: Nelson B Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Group: vintageHO Message: 13367 From: Nelson B Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Group: vintageHO Message: 13368 From: Garry Spear Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Paper Sided Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13369 From: Russ Shiel Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Sided Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13370 From: Russ Shiel Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Sided Cars - red herring
Group: vintageHO Message: 13371 From: Russ Shiel Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Sided Cars - another herring
Group: vintageHO Message: 13372 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Sided Cars - another herring
Group: vintageHO Message: 13373 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/23/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13374 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: ID these please
Group: vintageHO Message: 13375 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
Group: vintageHO Message: 13376 From: Wobbly913 Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
Group: vintageHO Message: 13377 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
Group: vintageHO Message: 13378 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
Group: vintageHO Message: 13379 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
Group: vintageHO Message: 13380 From: John H Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
Group: vintageHO Message: 13381 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: ID: Screened Brass Grommetts AKA Diesel Radiator Screens
Group: vintageHO Message: 13382 From: jim heckard Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13383 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13384 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13385 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13386 From: jim heckard Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13387 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13388 From: jim heckard Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Trackside Specialties numbers.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13389 From: trainliker Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13390 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question: Trackside Specialties PRR P-5a kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13391 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question: Trackside Specialties PRR P-5a kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13392 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question: Trackside Specialties PRR P-5a kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13394 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13395 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13396 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13397 From: Chris B Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13398 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13399 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13400 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13401 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13402 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13403 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13404 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13405 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13406 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: question: Trackside Specialties PRR P-5a kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13407 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: question: Trackside Specialties PRR P-5a kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13408 From: jim heckard Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Saved
Group: vintageHO Message: 13409 From: jim heckard Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Mantua ID MAYBE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13410 From: Riverboy Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Mantua Tyco Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13411 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Tyco Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13412 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Tyco Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13413 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Disney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13414 From: Joe Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Red Ball Flat Car Instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 13415 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: Disney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13416 From: jim heckard Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: 6 wheel trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 13417 From: jim heckard Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: 6 wheel trucks
Group: vintageHO Message: 13418 From: Chris B Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: 6 wheel trucks [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13419 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: INQUIRY
Group: vintageHO Message: 13420 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Saved
Group: vintageHO Message: 13421 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Tyco Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13422 From: bigmama856 Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Flat Car Instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 13423 From: nvrr49 Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Flat Car Instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 13424 From: bigmama856 Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley 56' Open Well Flat Car - need instruction
Group: vintageHO Message: 13425 From: Marlene Mahoney Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Fw: need instructions a.s.a.p for (listed below)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13426 From: rcjge Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Strombecker Rock Island Rocket Train Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13427 From: bob d Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rock Island Rocket Train Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13428 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13429 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Metal Train Shells
Group: vintageHO Message: 13430 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Group: vintageHO Message: 13431 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13432 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13433 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13434 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13435 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13436 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13437 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13438 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13439 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: More oldies
Group: vintageHO Message: 13440 From: Russ Shiel Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Group: vintageHO Message: 13441 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Group: vintageHO Message: 13442 From: rcjge Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Lionel husky bottom cover needed/sought
Group: vintageHO Message: 13443 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: More oldies
Group: vintageHO Message: 13444 From: Russ Shiel Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Group: vintageHO Message: 13445 From: bigmama856 Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Flat Car Instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 13446 From: toytrain13 Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Red Ball Wagon Top cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13447 From: jim heckard Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: He's back
Group: vintageHO Message: 13448 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back
Group: vintageHO Message: 13449 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Group: vintageHO Message: 13450 From: dickybee2000 Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Mystery GN boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13451 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13452 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back, Package Arrived
Group: vintageHO Message: 13453 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Wagon Top cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 13454 From: jim heckard Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back, Package Arrived
Group: vintageHO Message: 13455 From: jim heckard Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back, Package Arrived
Group: vintageHO Message: 13456 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back, Package Arrived
Group: vintageHO Message: 13457 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back, Package Arrived
Group: vintageHO Message: 13458 From: Russ Shiel Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13459 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 3/3/2010
Subject: New MRH Released
Group: vintageHO Message: 13460 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/3/2010
Subject: Question about emailing this group with my vintage Ho eBay listings.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13461 From: Jim Waterman Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: New MRH Released
Group: vintageHO Message: 13462 From: Chris B Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: more about Adams & Son O ga
Group: vintageHO Message: 13463 From: Chris B Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Adams & Son O ga ABBA set on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13464 From: Chris B Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Adams & Son O ga E unit [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13465 From: jim heckard Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Adams & Son
Group: vintageHO Message: 13466 From: RalphB Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
Group: vintageHO Message: 13467 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
Group: vintageHO Message: 13468 From: dickybee2000 Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13469 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13470 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13471 From: dickybee2000 Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13472 From: jim heckard Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: package arrived
Group: vintageHO Message: 13473 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 13474 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Friction Clutches, Fluid Drives and Planetary Transmissions
Group: vintageHO Message: 13475 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13476 From: tom leen Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13477 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13478 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13479 From: John H Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13480 From: bob d Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13481 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13482 From: Chris B Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13483 From: jim heckard Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13484 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13485 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13486 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13487 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13488 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13489 From: Chris B Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13490 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13491 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13492 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13493 From: Dave Royer Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13494 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13495 From: James B Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Instructions wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 13496 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13497 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Fwd: a69mustang4me has sent a question about item #190378502168, end
Group: vintageHO Message: 13498 From: jim heckard Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: odd ebay item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13499 From: John H Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13500 From: bob d Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13501 From: Chris B Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13502 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13503 From: Bigdaddy Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Wanted - Athearn F7A Black Widow Shell
Group: vintageHO Message: 13504 From: jim heckard Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13505 From: Nelson B Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13506 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing - tezz55 reply to me
Group: vintageHO Message: 13507 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13508 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13509 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13510 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: odd ebay item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13511 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13512 From: jim heckard Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: odd ebay item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13513 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13514 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Friction Clutches, Fluid Drives and Planetary Transmissions
Group: vintageHO Message: 13515 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: odd ebay item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13516 From: jim heckard Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: odd Ebay item.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13517 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: odd Ebay item.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13518 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: odd Ebay item.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13519 From: tebee2 Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Help identifying an early Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 13520 From: fchlupp Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Vintage Varney and Athearn Tank Car Parts Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 13521 From: rrdrigg Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Athearn 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 13522 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 13523 From: Dale Smith Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13524 From: Dale Smith Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 13525 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13526 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 13527 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 13528 From: jim heckard Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 13529 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13530 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: odd Ebay item.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13531 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 13532 From: tebee2 Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 13533 From: jim heckard Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 13534 From: Robert Driggers Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 13535 From: DOM ST.JOHN Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 13536 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Ulrich 52'6" composite gondola
Group: vintageHO Message: 13537 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Ulrich 52'6" composite gondola
Group: vintageHO Message: 13538 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Ulrich 52'6" composite gondola
Group: vintageHO Message: 13539 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Ulrich 52'6" composite gondola
Group: vintageHO Message: 13540 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Ulrich 52'6" composite gondola
Group: vintageHO Message: 13541 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Friction Clutches, Fluid Drives and Planetary Transmissions
Group: vintageHO Message: 13542 From: jim heckard Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP
Group: vintageHO Message: 13543 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: More Ulrich
Group: vintageHO Message: 13544 From: al45390 Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13545 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13546 From: jim heckard Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP
Group: vintageHO Message: 13547 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13548 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP
Group: vintageHO Message: 13549 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13550 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, endin
Group: vintageHO Message: 13551 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Group: vintageHO Message: 13552 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13553 From: Walter Bayer Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13554 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13555 From: bob d Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13556 From: Chris B Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13557 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13558 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13559 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13560 From: Chris B Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13561 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Group: vintageHO Message: 13562 From: John Hagen Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13563 From: Chris B Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13564 From: Nelson B Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13565 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13566 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13567 From: Russ Shiel Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: mystery cars for ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 13568 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: mystery cars for ID [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13569 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: mystery cars for ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 13570 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13571 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, endin
Group: vintageHO Message: 13572 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13573 From: jim heckard Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Fake ?????
Group: vintageHO Message: 13574 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Fake ?????
Group: vintageHO Message: 13575 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, endin
Group: vintageHO Message: 13576 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, endin
Group: vintageHO Message: 13577 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Group: vintageHO Message: 13578 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13579 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13580 From: jim heckard Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Group: vintageHO Message: 13581 From: Paul Stevenson Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Group: vintageHO Message: 13582 From: grassball2003 Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Mantua Automatic Car Coupler Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13583 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Automatic Car Coupler Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13584 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168
Group: vintageHO Message: 13585 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168
Group: vintageHO Message: 13586 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Estate Planning Handout
Group: vintageHO Message: 13587 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Estate Planning Handout
Group: vintageHO Message: 13588 From: trainliker Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Estate Planning Handout
Group: vintageHO Message: 13589 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, endin
Group: vintageHO Message: 13590 From: Chris B Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Group: vintageHO Message: 13591 From: RalphB Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Estate Planning Handout
Group: vintageHO Message: 13592 From: jim heckard Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Group: vintageHO Message: 13593 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: FA:Thomas Roma Wine Car & APCO Parts/Project Car & Laconia PRR X31a
Group: vintageHO Message: 13594 From: Nelson B Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Group: vintageHO Message: 13595 From: jim heckard Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13596 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13597 From: John H Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13598 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13599 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13600 From: RalphB Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13601 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13602 From: IAN Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: hi all
Group: vintageHO Message: 13603 From: John H Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13604 From: jim heckard Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: hi all
Group: vintageHO Message: 13605 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13606 From: jim heckard Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: keepimg a record
Group: vintageHO Message: 13607 From: rcjge Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13608 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13609 From: Chris B Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13610 From: rcjge Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13611 From: rcjge Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13612 From: Marlene Mahoney Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: how do I?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13613 From: Wally Weart Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13614 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13615 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13616 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13617 From: corv9 Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13618 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13619 From: Chris B Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13620 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168
Group: vintageHO Message: 13621 From: Chris B Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13622 From: Nelson B Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13623 From: corv9 Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13624 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13625 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13626 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13627 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 13628 From: still just frank Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13629 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13630 From: tebee2 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13631 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13632 From: tebee2 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13633 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13634 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13635 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13636 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13637 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13638 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13639 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13640 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13641 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13642 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13643 From: Chris B Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13644 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13645 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13646 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13647 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13648 From: jim heckard Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Super Scale NW-2, Lindsay Sw-7?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13649 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13650 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Super Scale NW-2, Lindsay Sw-7?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13651 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13652 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13653 From: Chris B Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: layout progress report, ran first run with old Athearn sw chassi
Group: vintageHO Message: 13654 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13655 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13656 From: chianrsteele Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13657 From: jbark76 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13658 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: RMC 1978
Group: vintageHO Message: 13659 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: RMC 1978
Group: vintageHO Message: 13660 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: RMC 1978
Group: vintageHO Message: 13661 From: Chris B Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13662 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Super Scale NW-2, Lindsay Sw-7?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13663 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: layout progress report, ran first run with old Athearn sw chassi
Group: vintageHO Message: 13664 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: MDC 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13665 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Brass Varney made in 1936 Triplex
Group: vintageHO Message: 13666 From: Wobbly913 Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Brass Varney made in 1936 Triplex
Group: vintageHO Message: 13667 From: rcjge Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13668 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13669 From: rcjge Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13670 From: rcjge Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13671 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0 [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13672 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13673 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13674 From: rcjge Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13675 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13676 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 13677 From: rcjge Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: RMC 1978
Group: vintageHO Message: 13678 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13679 From: rcjge Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13680 From: Nelson B Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Brass Varney made in 1936 Triplex
Group: vintageHO Message: 13681 From: bob d Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Need Help with ID and Price
Group: vintageHO Message: 13682 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
Group: vintageHO Message: 13683 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
Group: vintageHO Message: 13684 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
Group: vintageHO Message: 13685 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
Group: vintageHO Message: 13686 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Ebay 0-4-0 item
Group: vintageHO Message: 13687 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Help With ID and Info
Group: vintageHO Message: 13688 From: Chris B Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Fw: Ebay - 1951 WINTON HO BRASS 2-6-6-6 ARTICULATED LOCOMOTIVE KIT
Group: vintageHO Message: 13689 From: John H Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
Group: vintageHO Message: 13690 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Laconia "Ultra Detail" kit.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13691 From: rcjge Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: Roundhouse 0-6-0 Gorre & Dapheid
Group: vintageHO Message: 13692 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: Laconia "Ultra Detail" kit.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13693 From: jay matz Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 Gorre & Dapheid
Group: vintageHO Message: 13694 From: Wally Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Winans Camelback
Group: vintageHO Message: 13695 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
Group: vintageHO Message: 13696 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
Group: vintageHO Message: 13697 From: Lester Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
Group: vintageHO Message: 13698 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
Group: vintageHO Message: 13699 From: Chris B Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
Group: vintageHO Message: 13700 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 13701 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Laconia "Ultra Detail" kit.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13702 From: rcjge Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13703 From: Chris B Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13704 From: still just frank Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: HObbyline responce to Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 13705 From: jim heckard Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13706 From: jim heckard Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: HObbyline responce to Hobbytown
Group: vintageHO Message: 13707 From: Wally Weart Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
Group: vintageHO Message: 13708 From: Carl Neste Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13709 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13710 From: bob d Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13711 From: Matthew Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
Group: vintageHO Message: 13712 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13713 From: tom bell Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13714 From: Chris B Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13715 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13716 From: jim heckard Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Silvine
Group: vintageHO Message: 13717 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Silvine
Group: vintageHO Message: 13718 From: ho_in_hancock Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Silvine
Group: vintageHO Message: 13719 From: Chris B Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Silvine
Group: vintageHO Message: 13720 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: 0-6-6-0 Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 13721 From: tom bell Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: 0-6-6-0 Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 13722 From: jim heckard Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 13723 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: 0-6-6-0 Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 13724 From: jim heckard Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: 0-6-6-0 Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 13725 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Silvine
Group: vintageHO Message: 13726 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: 0-6-6-0 Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 13727 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 13728 From: tom bell Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: 0-6-6-0 Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 13729 From: jim heckard Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 13730 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 13731 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13732 From: Chris B Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 13733 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13734 From: railroadmodeler Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 13735 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 13736 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2010
Subject: Fake ?????
Group: vintageHO Message: 13737 From: trainm7 Date: 3/26/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody? HOBBYTOWN FOREVER!
Group: vintageHO Message: 13738 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/26/2010
Subject: Idea Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13739 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/26/2010
Subject: Re: Idea Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13740 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 3/26/2010
Subject: Re: Fake ?????
Group: vintageHO Message: 13741 From: jim heckard Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Fake
Group: vintageHO Message: 13742 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: Fake ?????
Group: vintageHO Message: 13743 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: FA: LACONIA CHATEAU-MARTIN WINE KIT on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13744 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: Idea Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13745 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: Idea Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13746 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: Idea Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13747 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: GSFS: Ideal Cars, Kits, and a Comet Kit For Sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 13748 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Fwd: GSFS: Ideal Cars, Kits, and a Comet Kit For Sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 13749 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: Idea Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13750 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: GSFS [vintageHO] Idea Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13751 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: GSFS: Ideal Cars, Kits, and a Comet Kit For Sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 13752 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: GSFS: Ideal Cars, Kits, and a Comet Kit For Sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 13753 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/28/2010
Subject: Re: GSFS [vintageHO] Idea Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 13754 From: jim heckard Date: 3/28/2010
Subject: Progress on gift
Group: vintageHO Message: 13755 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: Re: Progress on gift
Group: vintageHO Message: 13756 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13757 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: mystery power truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 13758 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13759 From: jim heckard Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: K&O power
Group: vintageHO Message: 13760 From: Don Grant Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: Re: mystery power truck [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13761 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: New Acquisition
Group: vintageHO Message: 13762 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: mystery power truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 13763 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: mystery power truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 13764 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: mystery power truck
Group: vintageHO Message: 13765 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: New Acquisition
Group: vintageHO Message: 13766 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: New Acquisition
Group: vintageHO Message: 13767 From: dayers2666 Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Comet slag car ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13768 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: New Acquisition
Group: vintageHO Message: 13769 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/2/2010
Subject: Re: Comet slag car ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13770 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 4/2/2010
Subject: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13771 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/2/2010
Subject: Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13772 From: Dale Smith Date: 4/2/2010
Subject: Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13773 From: louis niederlander Date: 4/2/2010
Subject: Re: Silvine
Group: vintageHO Message: 13774 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/3/2010
Subject: Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13775 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/3/2010
Subject: Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13776 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/3/2010
Subject: Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13777 From: rcjge Date: 4/3/2010
Subject: Lionel HO collecting
Group: vintageHO Message: 13778 From: Matthew Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO collecting
Group: vintageHO Message: 13779 From: rcjge Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO collecting
Group: vintageHO Message: 13780 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Happy Easter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13781 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Lionel Plastic HO Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13782 From: oljoe@bex.net Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel Plastic HO Pacific [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13783 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel Plastic HO Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13784 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Re: Happy Easter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13785 From: oljoe@bex.net Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel Plastic HO Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13786 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13787 From: tom leen Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13788 From: dayers2666 Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: Comet slag car ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13789 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13790 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13791 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13792 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13793 From: John Barlow Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C....They're There!
Group: vintageHO Message: 13794 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13795 From: John Barlow Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: E&H (was: A.H.C.)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13796 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13797 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13798 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13799 From: Walter Bayer Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13800 From: Matthew Date: 4/6/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel Plastic HO Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13801 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 4/6/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13802 From: John Barlow Date: 4/6/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13803 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/8/2010
Subject: Rest of Story Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner - Vintage HO Kit or Scratch
Group: vintageHO Message: 13804 From: tomvanhoy Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Rest of story
Group: vintageHO Message: 13805 From: Matthew Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Rest of Story Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner - Vintage HO Kit or Scratch
Group: vintageHO Message: 13806 From: RalphB Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Old Kadee couplers
Group: vintageHO Message: 13807 From: The Danish Duke Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Rest of story
Group: vintageHO Message: 13808 From: dhopf1 Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Vintage Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13809 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13810 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13811 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Parts Catalogs
Group: vintageHO Message: 13812 From: John H Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Parts Catalogs
Group: vintageHO Message: 13813 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Parts Catalogs
Group: vintageHO Message: 13814 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13815 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: In need of a boxcar end
Group: vintageHO Message: 13816 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Rest of Story Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner - Vintage HO Kit or Scratch
Group: vintageHO Message: 13817 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Re: In need of a boxcar end
Group: vintageHO Message: 13818 From: rcjge Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: A Bowser or PL instead of varney?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13819 From: jim heckard Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Ebay Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13820 From: hooligan Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13821 From: toytrain13 Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Re: A Bowser or PL instead of varney?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13822 From: jim heckard Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13823 From: rcjge Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13824 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13825 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13826 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13827 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13828 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13829 From: JimW Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13830 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13831 From: rcjge Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13832 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13833 From: jbark76 Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: In need of a boxcar end
Group: vintageHO Message: 13834 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13835 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13836 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: American Beauty Cars with Walthers Sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 13837 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13838 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Penn Line, Varney, Cary, Mantua ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13839 From: bob d Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13840 From: Carl Neste Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13841 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: In need of a boxcar end
Group: vintageHO Message: 13842 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13843 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13844 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13845 From: Fred Krause Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13846 From: David J. Starr Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 13847 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13848 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13849 From: Chris B Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: new ebay listings for vintage cast diesel shells
Group: vintageHO Message: 13850 From: Carl Neste Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13851 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/12/2010
Subject: More New Vids
Group: vintageHO Message: 13852 From: rcjge Date: 4/12/2010
Subject: Hobbytown Kit number List?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13853 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/13/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Kit number List?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13858 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/13/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 13859 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
Group: vintageHO Message: 13860 From: Roger Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
Group: vintageHO Message: 13861 From: Roger Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Group: vintageHO Message: 13862 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 13863 From: Roger Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
Group: vintageHO Message: 13864 From: al45390 Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: Question for "Ambroid" Roger
Group: vintageHO Message: 13865 From: Roger Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question for "Ambroid" Roger
Group: vintageHO Message: 13866 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: new ebay listings for vintage cast diesel shells
Group: vintageHO Message: 13867 From: Walter Bayer Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question for "Ambroid" Roger
Group: vintageHO Message: 13868 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
Group: vintageHO Message: 13869 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Correction Re: new ebay listings for vintage cast diesel shells
Group: vintageHO Message: 13870 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Odd cast brass F units plus progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 13871 From: Carl Neste Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Damaged Decal
Group: vintageHO Message: 13872 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
Group: vintageHO Message: 13873 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
Group: vintageHO Message: 13874 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
Group: vintageHO Message: 13875 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13876 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13877 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
Group: vintageHO Message: 13878 From: Garry Spear Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13879 From: bob d Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
Group: vintageHO Message: 13880 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13881 From: Chris B Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13882 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13883 From: Chris B Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13884 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13885 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: quill drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 13886 From: Roger Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
Group: vintageHO Message: 13887 From: Garry Spear Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13888 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
Group: vintageHO Message: 13889 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13890 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13891 From: Denny Anspach Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Group: vintageHO Message: 13892 From: Roger Date: 4/16/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
Group: vintageHO Message: 13893 From: bob d Date: 4/16/2010
Subject: Need ID on Brass Tender
Group: vintageHO Message: 13894 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/17/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / New Haven Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 13895 From: bigmama856 Date: 4/17/2010
Subject: Link or Web site address needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 13896 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/17/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 13897 From: Roger Date: 4/17/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / New Haven Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 13898 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/18/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / New Haven Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 13899 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 4/18/2010
Subject: Door needed for Chester Combine
Group: vintageHO Message: 13900 From: Robert Date: 4/19/2010
Subject: America's Hobby Center
Group: vintageHO Message: 13901 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 4/19/2010
Subject: Re: America's Hobby Center
Group: vintageHO Message: 13902 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 4/20/2010
Subject: Re: America's Hobby Center
Group: vintageHO Message: 13903 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/20/2010
Subject: Unknown Coupler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13904 From: Wobbly913 Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13905 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13906 From: Garry Spear Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13907 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13908 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13909 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13910 From: David J. Starr Date: 4/23/2010
Subject: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13911 From: jim heckard Date: 4/23/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13912 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 4/23/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13913 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/23/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13914 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13915 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13916 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13917 From: David J. Starr Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13918 From: David J. Starr Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13919 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13920 From: Chris B Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13921 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13922 From: Chris B Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13923 From: caroline Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: ebay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13924 From: Nelson B Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Group: vintageHO Message: 13925 From: MikeS Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13926 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13927 From: tomvanhoy Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13928 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13929 From: Graeme Eldred Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13930 From: MikeS Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13931 From: tom bell Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13932 From: tomvanhoy Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Trix
Group: vintageHO Message: 13933 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13934 From: MikeS Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13935 From: MikeS Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Trix
Group: vintageHO Message: 13936 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Trix Twin - UK
Group: vintageHO Message: 13937 From: al45390 Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Varney V-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 13938 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Varney Motor on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13939 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Motor on eBay [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13940 From: Chris B Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Motor on eBay [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13941 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Motor on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13942 From: Chris B Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Motor on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13943 From: rcjge Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: another Varney NOT! on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13944 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: another Varney NOT! on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13945 From: rcjge Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Another Ebay oddity? Hobbytown Shark
Group: vintageHO Message: 13946 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: DMC item on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13947 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: another Varney NOT! on ebay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13948 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: Another Ebay oddity? Hobbytown Shark
Group: vintageHO Message: 13949 From: Chris B Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13950 From: Chris B Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13951 From: Robert Hoffman Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13952 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13953 From: Robert Hoffman Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Tyco 0-4-0 Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13954 From: The Danish Duke Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13955 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13956 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13957 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13958 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13959 From: jim heckard Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 13960 From: Dick Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13961 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13962 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13963 From: Chris B Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13964 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13965 From: herb1013 Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13966 From: John H Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Tyco 0-4-0 Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13967 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 13968 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: America's Hobby Center
Group: vintageHO Message: 13969 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13970 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13971 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 13972 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13973 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13974 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13975 From: toytrain13 Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Red Ball Kit #62 paint scheme
Group: vintageHO Message: 13976 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 13977 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Kit #62 paint scheme
Group: vintageHO Message: 13978 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 13979 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 13980 From: Robert the N. Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 13981 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 13982 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Multiple C&O F Units (was Dallas Model Craft)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13983 From: David J. Starr Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 13984 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Multiple C&O F Units (was Dallas Model Craft) [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13985 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 13986 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Harris
Group: vintageHO Message: 13987 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Group: vintageHO Message: 13988 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Fw: Pa scale models drive mech
Group: vintageHO Message: 13989 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: Pa scale models drive mech
Group: vintageHO Message: 13990 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: Pa scale models drive mech
Group: vintageHO Message: 13991 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: PSM dual shaft, dual flywheel
Group: vintageHO Message: 13992 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: J S Cambron ? mystery
Group: vintageHO Message: 13993 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13994 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: additional detail picture
Group: vintageHO Message: 13995 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13996 From: Ken Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: New member and old user
Group: vintageHO Message: 13997 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/30/2010
Subject: Re: Cambron and Mystery PA's
Group: vintageHO Message: 13998 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/30/2010
Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
Group: vintageHO Message: 13999 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/1/2010
Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
Group: vintageHO Message: 14000 From: jim heckard Date: 5/1/2010
Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
Group: vintageHO Message: 14001 From: Chris B Date: 5/1/2010
Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
Group: vintageHO Message: 14002 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/1/2010
Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
Group: vintageHO Message: 14003 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/2/2010
Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
Group: vintageHO Message: 14004 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2010
Subject: J S Cambron
Group: vintageHO Message: 14005 From: rcjge Date: 5/2/2010
Subject: Re: New member and old user
Group: vintageHO Message: 14006 From: Robert Date: 5/2/2010
Subject: Atlas Buildings
Group: vintageHO Message: 14007 From: herb1013 Date: 5/2/2010
Subject: Welcome to the Atlas Model Railroad Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14008 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/2/2010
Subject: Re: Atlas Buildings
Group: vintageHO Message: 14009 From: Robert Date: 5/2/2010
Subject: Steam engines that puff smoke
Group: vintageHO Message: 14010 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/2/2010
Subject: PSM dual shaft, dual flywheel
Group: vintageHO Message: 14011 From: Ken Date: 5/2/2010
Subject: HTB Was: New member and old user
Group: vintageHO Message: 14012 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 5/2/2010
Subject: Re: Steam engines that puff smoke
Group: vintageHO Message: 14013 From: still just frank Date: 5/3/2010
Subject: HO scale smoke units
Group: vintageHO Message: 14014 From: jerrygart5 Date: 5/3/2010
Subject: Re: Steam engines that puff smoke
Group: vintageHO Message: 14015 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 5/5/2010
Subject: The next free edition of Model Railroad Hobbyist is availale now
Group: vintageHO Message: 14016 From: Tom H Date: 5/6/2010
Subject: Varney PRR Merchandise Service boc car numbers?????
Group: vintageHO Message: 14017 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/6/2010
Subject: Re: Varney PRR Merchandise Service boc car numbers?????
Group: vintageHO Message: 14018 From: Garry Spear Date: 5/6/2010
Subject: Re: Varney PRR Merchandise Service boc car numbers?????
Group: vintageHO Message: 14019 From: Tom H Date: 5/6/2010
Subject: Re: Varney PRR Merchandise Service boc car numbers?????
Group: vintageHO Message: 14020 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 5/7/2010
Subject: Re: What have I got here?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14021 From: Robert Date: 5/7/2010
Subject: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14022 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/7/2010
Subject: Re: What have I got here?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14023 From: louis niederlander Date: 5/7/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14024 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/7/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14025 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14026 From: jbark76 Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: What have I got here?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14027 From: nvrr49 Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: What have I got here?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14028 From: bob d Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14029 From: John Barlow Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14030 From: jim heckard Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14031 From: bob d Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14032 From: Robert Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Lionel HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14033 From: John Barlow Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14034 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14035 From: rcjge Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Athearn 1950's round roof box car parts?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14036 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14037 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14038 From: bcerestrains Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Lionel HO 0805 Seaboard Radioactive Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 14039 From: jcashook Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Which Kadee type coupler for Penn Line D-2 Midget switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14040 From: Wobbly913 Date: 5/8/2010
Subject: Re: Which Kadee type coupler for Penn Line D-2 Midget switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14041 From: RalphB Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
Group: vintageHO Message: 14042 From: ron plyler Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Which Kadee type coupler for Penn Line D-2 Midget switcher?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14043 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 1950's round roof box car parts?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14044 From: pmonti Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Lionel HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14045 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: winning bidder
Group: vintageHO Message: 14046 From: Chris B Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Re: winning bidder
Group: vintageHO Message: 14047 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Re: winning bidder
Group: vintageHO Message: 14048 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14049 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14050 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14051 From: Carl Neste Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Need Ambroid Kit Instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14052 From: Phillip M Date: 5/9/2010
Subject: Lionel HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14053 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/10/2010
Subject: Re: winning bidder
Group: vintageHO Message: 14054 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/10/2010
Subject: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947
Group: vintageHO Message: 14055 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/10/2010
Subject: Additional Re: The Red Ball EMC SW-1 Switcher from 1947
Group: vintageHO Message: 14056 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/10/2010
Subject: Lionel HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14057 From: jim heckard Date: 5/10/2010
Subject: Re: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947 [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14058 From: Chris B Date: 5/10/2010
Subject: Re: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947
Group: vintageHO Message: 14059 From: Roger Date: 5/10/2010
Subject: Re: Need Ambroid Kit Instructions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14060 From: jim heckard Date: 5/10/2010
Subject: Re: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947
Group: vintageHO Message: 14061 From: Chris B Date: 5/10/2010
Subject: Re: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947
Group: vintageHO Message: 14062 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW-1 Switcher from 1947 [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14063 From: rcjge Date: 5/11/2010
Subject: John english FA ABA set
Group: vintageHO Message: 14064 From: jim heckard Date: 5/11/2010
Subject: Re: John english FA ABA set
Group: vintageHO Message: 14065 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/11/2010
Subject: Out of print magazine article
Group: vintageHO Message: 14066 From: rcjge Date: 5/11/2010
Subject: Re: John english FA ABA set
Group: vintageHO Message: 14067 From: jim heckard Date: 5/12/2010
Subject: Re: John english FA ABA set
Group: vintageHO Message: 14068 From: still just frank Date: 5/12/2010
Subject: Who made these ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14069 From: bob d Date: 5/12/2010
Subject: Re: John english FA ABA set
Group: vintageHO Message: 14070 From: jim heckard Date: 5/12/2010
Subject: Re: John english FA ABA set
Group: vintageHO Message: 14071 From: DarylO Date: 5/13/2010
Subject: AHI Trains??
Group: vintageHO Message: 14072 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 5/13/2010
Subject: Re: Empire City Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 14073 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/13/2010
Subject: Re: Empire City Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 14074 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/13/2010
Subject: Re: AHI Trains??
Group: vintageHO Message: 14075 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/13/2010
Subject: Goodyears model room
Group: vintageHO Message: 14076 From: Daryl Olszeski Date: 5/13/2010
Subject: Re: AHI Trains??
Group: vintageHO Message: 14077 From: jim heckard Date: 5/13/2010
Subject: A H I iems
Group: vintageHO Message: 14078 From: Daryl Olszeski Date: 5/13/2010
Subject: Re: A H I iems
Group: vintageHO Message: 14079 From: jim heckard Date: 5/13/2010
Subject: Re: A H I iems
Group: vintageHO Message: 14080 From: DarylO Date: 5/13/2010
Subject: Info Found on AHI
Group: vintageHO Message: 14081 From: Chris B Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: Info Found on AHI
Group: vintageHO Message: 14082 From: Daryl Olszeski Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: Info Found on AHI
Group: vintageHO Message: 14083 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: Empire City Models
Group: vintageHO Message: 14084 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: AHI Trains??
Group: vintageHO Message: 14085 From: Daryl Olszeski Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: AHI Trains??
Group: vintageHO Message: 14086 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: A H I iems
Group: vintageHO Message: 14087 From: Daryl Olszeski Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: A H I iems
Group: vintageHO Message: 14088 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: Info Found on AHI
Group: vintageHO Message: 14089 From: Chris B Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: A H I iems
Group: vintageHO Message: 14090 From: Chris B Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: A H I iems
Group: vintageHO Message: 14091 From: RalphB Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Old Time Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14092 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: Info Found on AHI
Group: vintageHO Message: 14093 From: Dale Smith Date: 5/14/2010
Subject: Re: Info Found on AHI
Group: vintageHO Message: 14094 From: Graeme Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Re: A H I iems
Group: vintageHO Message: 14095 From: Chris B Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Re: A H I iems
Group: vintageHO Message: 14096 From: kool57@att.net Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Model Railroaders for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 14097 From: jim heckard Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: DMC FT unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14098 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: PRR question
Group: vintageHO Message: 14099 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Re: PRR question
Group: vintageHO Message: 14100 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Re: PRR question
Group: vintageHO Message: 14101 From: JimW Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Trackside Specialties L6 Parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 14102 From: JimW Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Re: PRR question
Group: vintageHO Message: 14103 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties L6 Parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 14104 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14105 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Re: Model Hobbies Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 14106 From: Chris B Date: 5/17/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14107 From: jim heckard Date: 5/18/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14108 From: Chris B Date: 5/18/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14109 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/18/2010
Subject: low profile drives - an lost art?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14110 From: Chris B Date: 5/18/2010
Subject: Re: low profile drives - an lost art?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14111 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/18/2010
Subject: Re: low profile drives - an lost art?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14112 From: Chris B Date: 5/18/2010
Subject: Re: low profile drives - an lost art?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14113 From: jim heckard Date: 5/18/2010
Subject: DMC FT A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14114 From: bob d Date: 5/18/2010
Subject: Varney F-unit on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 14115 From: Russ Shiel Date: 5/18/2010
Subject: Shay billboard boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 14116 From: tom bell Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: Shay billboard boxcar [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14117 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14118 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14119 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: One correction, one addition
Group: vintageHO Message: 14120 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Catalog
Group: vintageHO Message: 14121 From: rcjge Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's
Group: vintageHO Message: 14122 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14123 From: rcjge Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14124 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14125 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14126 From: Neal Chapman Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: (no subject)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14127 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14128 From: bearbon Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
Group: vintageHO Message: 14129 From: bob d Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14130 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14131 From: bob d Date: 5/19/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14132 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
Group: vintageHO Message: 14133 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
Group: vintageHO Message: 14134 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
Group: vintageHO Message: 14135 From: bob d Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
Group: vintageHO Message: 14136 From: jim heckard Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Evilbay Mantua Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 14137 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Re: Evilbay Mantua Engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 14138 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
Group: vintageHO Message: 14139 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
Group: vintageHO Message: 14140 From: John H Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
Group: vintageHO Message: 14141 From: jim heckard Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Low profile dual drive dual flywheel
Group: vintageHO Message: 14142 From: Chris B Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Re: Low profile dual drive dual flywheel
Group: vintageHO Message: 14143 From: RalphB Date: 5/20/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
Group: vintageHO Message: 14144 From: RalphB Date: 5/21/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
Group: vintageHO Message: 14145 From: comox11 Date: 5/21/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14146 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/21/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14147 From: Chris B Date: 5/21/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
Group: vintageHO Message: 14148 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/21/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14149 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/21/2010
Subject: Re: low profile drives - an lost art?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14150 From: Nelson B Date: 5/21/2010
Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
Group: vintageHO Message: 14151 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/21/2010
Subject: Re: low profile drives - an lost art? [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14152 From: jim heckard Date: 5/21/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14154 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/22/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific memories
Group: vintageHO Message: 14155 From: jim heckard Date: 5/22/2010
Subject: Mantua Cataliog
Group: vintageHO Message: 14156 From: jim heckard Date: 5/22/2010
Subject: Mantua Catalog
Group: vintageHO Message: 14157 From: bob d Date: 5/22/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Cataliog
Group: vintageHO Message: 14158 From: jim heckard Date: 5/22/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Cataliog
Group: vintageHO Message: 14159 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/22/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Cataliog
Group: vintageHO Message: 14160 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 5/23/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific memories
Group: vintageHO Message: 14161 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/23/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific memories
Group: vintageHO Message: 14162 From: bob d Date: 5/23/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific memories
Group: vintageHO Message: 14163 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/23/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit - Illustrated Ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 14164 From: jim heckard Date: 5/24/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit - Illustrated Ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 14165 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/24/2010
Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit - Illustrated Ad
Group: vintageHO Message: 14166 From: bob d Date: 5/24/2010
Subject: Vintage Megow NKP Hopper on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 14167 From: garyp552002 Date: 5/25/2010
Subject: Varney Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 14168 From: Red Ranger Date: 5/27/2010
Subject: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14169 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/27/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14170 From: jim heckard Date: 5/27/2010
Subject: Pre war Varney Consolidation.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14171 From: Riley K Date: 5/27/2010
Subject: Seeking Con-cor Wood-metal Kits from 1960's
Group: vintageHO Message: 14172 From: Red Ranger Date: 5/27/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14173 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/27/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14174 From: Red Ranger Date: 5/27/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14175 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 5/27/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14176 From: Nelson B Date: 5/27/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14177 From: Red Ranger Date: 5/28/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14178 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/28/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14179 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/28/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14180 From: Garry Spear Date: 5/28/2010
Subject: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14181 From: greg10562 Date: 5/28/2010
Subject: Ambroid Skybox Decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 14182 From: Nelson B Date: 5/29/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14183 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/29/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14184 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/29/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14185 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/29/2010
Subject: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14186 From: Joe Date: 5/29/2010
Subject: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14187 From: Graeme Date: 5/29/2010
Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14188 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/29/2010
Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14189 From: Ken Date: 5/29/2010
Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14190 From: jim heckard Date: 5/29/2010
Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14191 From: Ken Date: 5/29/2010
Subject: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14192 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14193 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14194 From: jim heckard Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14195 From: 23weldon Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14196 From: Ken Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14197 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14198 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14199 From: rcjge Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14200 From: Ken Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14201 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14202 From: docdenny34 Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14203 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14204 From: John H Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14205 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14206 From: hooligan Date: 5/30/2010
Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14207 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/31/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14208 From: Mike Sloane Date: 5/31/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14209 From: bob d Date: 5/31/2010
Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14210 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 5/31/2010
Subject: Metal Alloy Discussion
Group: vintageHO Message: 14211 From: The Danish Duke Date: 5/31/2010
Subject: Needing Athearn metal crane boom
Group: vintageHO Message: 14212 From: ron_tallyho Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14213 From: Mike Sloane Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14214 From: Ken Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14215 From: Denny Anspach Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14216 From: Nelson B Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14217 From: bluenosedviking Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14218 From: bob d Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14219 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14220 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14221 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Off topic post (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14222 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Dollar Tree Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14223 From: rcjge Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14224 From: bob d Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Dollar Tree Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14225 From: Larry Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Caterpillar To pay $820 Million for EMD
Group: vintageHO Message: 14226 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Dollar Tree Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14227 From: bob d Date: 6/1/2010
Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14228 From: Robert Karnisky Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14229 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14230 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14231 From: rcjge Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14232 From: 23weldon Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14233 From: Nelson B Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14234 From: bluenosedviking Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14235 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14236 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14237 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14238 From: bob d Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Varney Kits on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 14239 From: jerrygart5 Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14240 From: rcjge Date: 6/2/2010
Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14241 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/3/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14242 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/3/2010
Subject: Printing and Early Walther's Box
Group: vintageHO Message: 14243 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/3/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14244 From: Nelson B Date: 6/3/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14245 From: bluenosedviking Date: 6/4/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14246 From: greg10562 Date: 6/4/2010
Subject: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14247 From: bob d Date: 6/4/2010
Subject: Re: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14248 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 6/4/2010
Subject: Re: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14249 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/4/2010
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO Message: 14250 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/4/2010
Subject: Re: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14251 From: morgantownrr Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Cadmium
Group: vintageHO Message: 14252 From: louis niederlander Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: Cadmium
Group: vintageHO Message: 14253 From: Ken Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: Cadmium
Group: vintageHO Message: 14254 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: Cadmium
Group: vintageHO Message: 14255 From: jim heckard Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: Cadmium
Group: vintageHO Message: 14256 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: Cadmium
Group: vintageHO Message: 14257 From: Chris B Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: Cadmium
Group: vintageHO Message: 14258 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: Cadmium
Group: vintageHO Message: 14259 From: madchemep2@aol.com Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14260 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14261 From: ron_tallyho Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14262 From: greg10562 Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14263 From: orangetrainman Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14264 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14265 From: George Frey Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14266 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14267 From: George Frey Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14268 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/5/2010
Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14269 From: Glenn476 Date: 6/6/2010
Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14270 From: Nelson B Date: 6/6/2010
Subject: Re: Rubber bands
Group: vintageHO Message: 14271 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/6/2010
Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14272 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/6/2010
Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14273 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/6/2010
Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14274 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/6/2010
Subject: Athearn Pacific (was rupper bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14275 From: George Frey Date: 6/6/2010
Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
Group: vintageHO Message: 14276 From: bluenosedviking Date: 6/7/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rupper bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14277 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 6/7/2010
Subject: Pirated Carsides
Group: vintageHO Message: 14278 From: Nelson B Date: 6/7/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14279 From: Nelson B Date: 6/7/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific & Neodymium Magnets (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14280 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/7/2010
Subject: Re: Pirated Carsides
Group: vintageHO Message: 14281 From: bob d Date: 6/7/2010
Subject: Re: Pirated Carsides
Group: vintageHO Message: 14282 From: David J. Starr Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14283 From: comox11 Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Pirated Carsides
Group: vintageHO Message: 14284 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14285 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14286 From: Chris B Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14287 From: greg10562 Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Help ID boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 14288 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14289 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14290 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14291 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14292 From: Nelson B Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14293 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14294 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14295 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14296 From: Chris B Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14297 From: Chris B Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14298 From: Chris B Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14299 From: Russ Shiel Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help ID boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 14300 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14301 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14302 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14303 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14304 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14305 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14306 From: Chris B Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14307 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14308 From: Nelson B Date: 6/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14309 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14310 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14311 From: jim heckard Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14312 From: greg10562 Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Help ID boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 14313 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14314 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14315 From: jim heckard Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14316 From: Chris B Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14317 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Help ID boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 14318 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14319 From: Chris B Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
Group: vintageHO Message: 14320 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: trolley drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 14321 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Help ID boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 14322 From: toytrain13 Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14323 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14324 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14325 From: Russ Shiel Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14326 From: Richard White Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14327 From: Nelson B Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14328 From: Richard White Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14329 From: rcjge Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14330 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14331 From: Chris B Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: trolley drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 14332 From: greg10562 Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: Help ID boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 14333 From: jim heckard Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14334 From: jim heckard Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14335 From: Garry Spear Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Info. Request - Varney? DAVISON covered hopper
Group: vintageHO Message: 14336 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14337 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: Info. Request - Varney? DAVISON covered hopper [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14338 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: Info. Request - Varney? DAVISON covered hopper [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14339 From: jim heckard Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14340 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14341 From: Richard White Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14342 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Re: Pirated Carsides
Group: vintageHO Message: 14343 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 6/10/2010
Subject: Red Ball Wreck Crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14344 From: bob d Date: 6/11/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14345 From: Robert Karnisky Date: 6/11/2010
Subject: 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14346 From: Mike Sloane Date: 6/11/2010
Subject: Re: 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14347 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/11/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14348 From: Nelson B Date: 6/11/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14349 From: jim heckard Date: 6/11/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14350 From: Richard White Date: 6/11/2010
Subject: Re: 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14351 From: Nelson B Date: 6/11/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14352 From: Mike Sloane Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Re: 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14353 From: oljoe@bex.net Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14354 From: bob d Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Re: 200-ton wrecking crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14355 From: Chris B Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Fw: Samhongsa trolley drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 14356 From: rcjge Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Re: 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14357 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Re: 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14358 From: Chris B Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Re: Samhongsa trolley drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 14359 From: Douglas Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Pittman Bride and Groom
Group: vintageHO Message: 14360 From: Roger Aultman Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Re: Pittman Bride and Groom
Group: vintageHO Message: 14361 From: Chris B Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: ebay ID?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14362 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/12/2010
Subject: Re: ebay ID?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14363 From: CinderCrusher Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Re: ebay ID?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14364 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Re: ebay ID?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14365 From: jim heckard Date: 6/15/2010
Subject: Varney Streamlined Hudson
Group: vintageHO Message: 14366 From: jim heckard Date: 6/16/2010
Subject: Real vs. Reproduction
Group: vintageHO Message: 14367 From: greg10562 Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Tyco Wrecking Crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14368 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14369 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: Real vs. Reproduction [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14370 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: Real vs. Reproduction
Group: vintageHO Message: 14371 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Repr
Group: vintageHO Message: 14372 From: jim heckard Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14373 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14374 From: jim heckard Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Varney Streamlined Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 14375 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 14376 From: jim heckard Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 14377 From: Ken Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: PRR R1 was Re: Varney Streamlined Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 14378 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14379 From: John Barlow Date: 6/17/2010
Subject: Re: PRR R1 was Re: Varney Streamlined Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 14380 From: rcjge Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14381 From: greg10562 Date: 6/18/2010
Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14382 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 6/19/2010
Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14383 From: rcjge Date: 6/19/2010
Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14384 From: rcjge Date: 6/19/2010
Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
Group: vintageHO Message: 14385 From: Fred Chlupp Date: 6/20/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Electric
Group: vintageHO Message: 14386 From: jim heckard Date: 6/20/2010
Subject: TYCO engine modification
Group: vintageHO Message: 14387 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 6/20/2010
Subject: Lockhart-Laconia car question
Group: vintageHO Message: 14388 From: Chris B Date: 6/20/2010
Subject: update on vintage W&OD Rosslyn branch WWII era layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 14389 From: man.ukin Date: 6/20/2010
Subject: FS H0 Scale Bowser Kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 14390 From: jim heckard Date: 6/20/2010
Subject: Re: update on vintage W&OD Rosslyn branch WWII era layout [12 Attach
Group: vintageHO Message: 14391 From: Chris B Date: 6/20/2010
Subject: Re: update on vintage W&OD Rosslyn branch WWII era layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 14392 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/21/2010
Subject: Re: Lockhart-Laconia car question
Group: vintageHO Message: 14393 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 6/21/2010
Subject: Re: Lockhart-Laconia car question
Group: vintageHO Message: 14394 From: Denny Anspach Date: 6/22/2010
Subject: Re: Lockhart-Laconia car question
Group: vintageHO Message: 14395 From: rcjge Date: 6/23/2010
Subject: Re: TYCO engine modification
Group: vintageHO Message: 14396 From: jim heckard Date: 6/24/2010
Subject: wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14397 From: Matthew Date: 6/24/2010
Subject: Re: wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14398 From: jim heckard Date: 6/24/2010
Subject: Re: wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14399 From: garyp552002 Date: 6/24/2010
Subject: Revell SW7 Diesel
Group: vintageHO Message: 14400 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 6/25/2010
Subject: Re: Revell SW7 Diesel
Group: vintageHO Message: 14401 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/25/2010
Subject: Model Retailer News
Group: vintageHO Message: 14402 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 6/25/2010
Subject: Re: Model Retailer News
Group: vintageHO Message: 14403 From: Matthew Date: 6/25/2010
Subject: Lindberg SW1/SW600 was: Re: wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14404 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 6/25/2010
Subject: Re: Revell SW7 Diesel
Group: vintageHO Message: 14405 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/26/2010
Subject: Original Mantua Parts Available @ Bowser
Group: vintageHO Message: 14406 From: jim heckard Date: 6/26/2010
Subject: Additional Updated Varney Tender Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 14407 From: Chris B Date: 6/26/2010
Subject: vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster
Group: vintageHO Message: 14408 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/26/2010
Subject: Re: vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14409 From: Chris B Date: 6/26/2010
Subject: Re: vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster
Group: vintageHO Message: 14410 From: jim heckard Date: 6/26/2010
Subject: Re: vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14411 From: Matthew Date: 6/27/2010
Subject: Re: Revell SW7 Diesel
Group: vintageHO Message: 14412 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 6/27/2010
Subject: Free Mantua & Varney loop couplers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14413 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/27/2010
Subject: Re: Free Mantua & Varney loop couplers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14414 From: Chris B Date: 6/28/2010
Subject: Fw: [brasscollectors] Re: another what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14415 From: jim heckard Date: 6/28/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: [brasscollectors] Re: another what is it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14416 From: rcjge Date: 6/28/2010
Subject: Athearn Metal Freight car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 14417 From: Wobbly913 Date: 6/28/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Freight car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 14418 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/28/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Freight car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 14419 From: Donald Dellmann Date: 6/28/2010
Subject: Re: Revell SW7 Diesel
Group: vintageHO Message: 14420 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Amazing Technology
Group: vintageHO Message: 14421 From: jim heckard Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Red Ball SW-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 14422 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Freight car kits
Group: vintageHO Message: 14423 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Re: "Athearn" (Kar Line) Plastic Freight cars, was: Athearn Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 14424 From: Wobbly913 Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Re: Amazing Technology
Group: vintageHO Message: 14425 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 14426 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 14427 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 14428 From: RalphB Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Re: "Athearn" (Kar Line) Plastic Freight cars, was: Athearn Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 14429 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 14430 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: 1938-40 Walthers Cast Bronze Alco High Hood Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 14431 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Re: 1938-40 Walthers Cast Bronze Alco High Hood Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 14432 From: garyp552002 Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Revell SW7
Group: vintageHO Message: 14433 From: jim heckard Date: 6/29/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 14434 From: RalphB Date: 6/30/2010
Subject: Re: "Athearn" (Kar Line) Plastic Freight cars, was: Athearn Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 14435 From: Richard Date: 7/1/2010
Subject: Pilot for Old Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 14436 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 7/2/2010
Subject: Matching 410M Paints
Group: vintageHO Message: 14437 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/2/2010
Subject: Re: Pilot for Old Athearn Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 14438 From: jim heckard Date: 7/3/2010
Subject: DMC papersides for EB unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14439 From: Matthew Date: 7/4/2010
Subject: Re: DMC papersides for EB unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14440 From: jim heckard Date: 7/4/2010
Subject: mint DMC paper sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 14441 From: Matthew Date: 7/5/2010
Subject: Re: mint DMC paper sides
Group: vintageHO Message: 14442 From: jim heckard Date: 7/5/2010
Subject: Nice Varney Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 14443 From: Douglas Date: 7/5/2010
Subject: Photos for interurban article
Group: vintageHO Message: 14444 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/5/2010
Subject: Re: Photos for interurban article
Group: vintageHO Message: 14445 From: MikeS Date: 7/7/2010
Subject: Collectible Toy Train Paper Yahoo Group
Group: vintageHO Message: 14446 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/7/2010
Subject: Convention
Group: vintageHO Message: 14447 From: James Bartelt Date: 7/7/2010
Subject: Re: Convention
Group: vintageHO Message: 14448 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 7/7/2010
Subject: Re: Convention
Group: vintageHO Message: 14449 From: rcjge Date: 7/8/2010
Subject: ebay auction ID?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14450 From: John H Date: 7/9/2010
Subject: Re: ebay auction ID?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14451 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 7/9/2010
Subject: Re: Convention
Group: vintageHO Message: 14452 From: Lawrence Date: 7/9/2010
Subject: Ladder Upgrades for Globe/Athearn/Varney stamped metal box and refri
Group: vintageHO Message: 14453 From: Jim Waterman Date: 7/9/2010
Subject: ebay auction ID?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14454 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/9/2010
Subject: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14455 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/9/2010
Subject: Re: GMC? [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14456 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/9/2010
Subject: Re: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14457 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/9/2010
Subject: Re: Convention
Group: vintageHO Message: 14458 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/9/2010
Subject: Re: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14459 From: jay matz Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: GMC? [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14460 From: MikeS Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: GMC? [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14461 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14462 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14463 From: jay matz Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14464 From: Robert Karnisky Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14465 From: Denny Anspach Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Ladder Upgrades for Globe/Athearn/Varney stamped metal box and refri
Group: vintageHO Message: 14466 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14467 From: rcjge Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: ebay auction ID?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14468 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14469 From: jay matz Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14470 From: Richard White Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: ebay auction ID?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14471 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14472 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/10/2010
Subject: Re: GMC?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14473 From: RalphB Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14474 From: Mike Sloane Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14475 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14476 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14477 From: keith gutshall Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14478 From: Dale Hokanson Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Ladder Upgrades for Globe/Athearn/Varney stamped metal box and refri
Group: vintageHO Message: 14479 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14480 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14481 From: Carl Neste Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?) [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14482 From: Ken Date: 7/11/2010
Subject: MDC Athearn Crown and others,,,,Heavy-duty flats
Group: vintageHO Message: 14483 From: rcjge Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14484 From: rcjge Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Nice Varney Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 14485 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14486 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Nice Varney Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 14487 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Nice Varney Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 14488 From: rcjge Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Nice Varney Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 14489 From: rcjge Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14490 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14491 From: jim heckard Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Nice Varney Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 14492 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14493 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14494 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14495 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/12/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14496 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14497 From: Denny Anspach Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14498 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 7/13/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14499 From: Ralph in SYR Date: 7/14/2010
Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14500 From: driven280 Date: 7/14/2010
Subject: Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 14501 From: Wobbly913 Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Re: Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 14502 From: Dale Hokanson Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Re: Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 14503 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Re: Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 14504 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Re: Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 14505 From: jim heckard Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: First Athearn Globe Drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 14506 From: driven280 Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 14507 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 14508 From: trolleynut Date: 7/15/2010
Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 14509 From: jim heckard Date: 7/16/2010
Subject: Repaired Athearn 0-6-0 Drives
Group: vintageHO Message: 14510 From: Dale Hokanson Date: 7/16/2010
Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 14511 From: Mike Sloane Date: 7/16/2010
Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 14512 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/16/2010
Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 14513 From: jim heckard Date: 7/16/2010
Subject: Red Ball SW-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 14514 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14515 From: jim heckard Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 14516 From: jim heckard Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14517 From: George Frey Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14518 From: jim heckard Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14519 From: Riverboy Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14520 From: George Frey Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14521 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14522 From: George Frey Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14523 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14524 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14525 From: John Hagen Date: 7/17/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14526 From: erieberk Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14527 From: erieberk Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14528 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14529 From: Nelson B Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14530 From: jim heckard Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14531 From: erieberk Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14532 From: jim heckard Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14533 From: jim heckard Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14534 From: erieberk Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14535 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 7/18/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. Wanted [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14536 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14537 From: jim heckard Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: I.D. Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14538 From: jim heckard Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14539 From: John H Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14540 From: erieberk Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14541 From: erieberk Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14542 From: erieberk Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14543 From: Nathan Stackhouse Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14544 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14545 From: jim heckard Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14546 From: jim heckard Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14547 From: bob d Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14548 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14549 From: Nathan Stackhouse Date: 7/19/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14550 From: erieberk Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14551 From: erieberk Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14552 From: Nathan Stackhouse Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14553 From: jim heckard Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Re: I. D. Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14554 From: jim heckard Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: I. D. Wanted odd engine
Group: vintageHO Message: 14555 From: VtHam Date: 7/20/2010
Subject: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14556 From: Jim Waterman Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14557 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14558 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14559 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14560 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
Group: vintageHO Message: 14561 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Answers to odd I D Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14562 From: erieberk Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Answers to odd I D Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14563 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14564 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14565 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14566 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14567 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14568 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14569 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14570 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: odd engine modifications
Group: vintageHO Message: 14571 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: odd engine modifications
Group: vintageHO Message: 14572 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Basket case rebuild
Group: vintageHO Message: 14573 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: Answers to odd I D Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 14574 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Right basket case rebuild pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 14575 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14576 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14577 From: erieberk Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14578 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Not sure how far to go
Group: vintageHO Message: 14579 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14580 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14581 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14582 From: John H Date: 7/21/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14583 From: jim heckard Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14584 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14585 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Right basket case rebuild pictures [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14586 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14587 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14588 From: Walter Bayer Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14589 From: Walter Bayer Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14590 From: Wobbly913 Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14591 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14592 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14593 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14594 From: Nelson B Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Not sure how far to go
Group: vintageHO Message: 14595 From: jim heckard Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
Group: vintageHO Message: 14596 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14597 From: jim heckard Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Not sure how far to go
Group: vintageHO Message: 14598 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14599 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14600 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14601 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/22/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14602 From: jim heckard Date: 7/23/2010
Subject: The red is gone
Group: vintageHO Message: 14603 From: jim heckard Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14604 From: George Frey Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14605 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Test
Group: vintageHO Message: 14606 From: jim heckard Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14607 From: Gary Woodard Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14608 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14609 From: George Frey Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Test
Group: vintageHO Message: 14610 From: gary pardue Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14611 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14612 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14613 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14614 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14615 From: Gary Woodard Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14616 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/25/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14617 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14618 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14619 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14620 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14621 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14622 From: John H Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14623 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14624 From: rcjge Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: posting problems, Moderator please contact me
Group: vintageHO Message: 14625 From: David Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14626 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14627 From: rcjge Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Positive ID on This?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14628 From: David Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
Group: vintageHO Message: 14629 From: rcjge Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Unknown Steamer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 14630 From: Mike Sloane Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 14631 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Steamer ID
Group: vintageHO Message: 14632 From: rcjge Date: 7/26/2010
Subject: Test Post
Group: vintageHO Message: 14633 From: bluenosedviking Date: 7/27/2010
Subject: Painting Amercan Flyer HO Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 14634 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 7/27/2010
Subject: Re: Positive ID on This?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14635 From: prr_homewood_jct Date: 7/27/2010
Subject: question : old athearn hi f drives ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14636 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/27/2010
Subject: Re: Positive ID on This?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14637 From: jim heckard Date: 7/27/2010
Subject: Progress during Step 5
Group: vintageHO Message: 14638 From: jim heckard Date: 7/27/2010
Subject: Change made already
Group: vintageHO Message: 14639 From: charlie@tech-j.biz Date: 7/27/2010
Subject: Athearn DD40
Group: vintageHO Message: 14640 From: charlie@tech-j.biz Date: 7/27/2010
Subject: Athearn based Turbine ! from late 60's
Group: vintageHO Message: 14641 From: rcjge Date: 7/27/2010
Subject: Re: Positive ID on This?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14642 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/27/2010
Subject: Re: Positive ID on This?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14643 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/28/2010
Subject: Re: Positive ID on This?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14644 From: jim heckard Date: 7/28/2010
Subject: Success 18" Radius
Group: vintageHO Message: 14645 From: jim heckard Date: 7/28/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn DD40
Group: vintageHO Message: 14646 From: Chris B Date: 7/28/2010
Subject: Re: Success 18" Radius [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14647 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/28/2010
Subject: Re: Success 18" Radius [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14648 From: jim heckard Date: 7/28/2010
Subject: Re: Success 18" Radius
Group: vintageHO Message: 14649 From: jim heckard Date: 7/28/2010
Subject: Re: Success 18" Radius
Group: vintageHO Message: 14650 From: driven280 Date: 7/28/2010
Subject: Couplers for Varney F3
Group: vintageHO Message: 14651 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/28/2010
Subject: Re: Couplers for Varney F3
Group: vintageHO Message: 14652 From: driven280 Date: 7/29/2010
Subject: Re: Couplers for Varney F3
Group: vintageHO Message: 14653 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/29/2010
Subject: Re: Couplers for Varney F3
Group: vintageHO Message: 14654 From: jim heckard Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14655 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: Re: high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14656 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: Re: high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14657 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: Re: high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14658 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14659 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14660 From: jim heckard Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: step / coke effect almost gone
Group: vintageHO Message: 14661 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14662 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone
Group: vintageHO Message: 14663 From: jim heckard Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: Re: high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14664 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: Re: high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14665 From: jim heckard Date: 7/30/2010
Subject: Penn Line Crusader decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 14666 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/31/2010
Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14667 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/31/2010
Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14668 From: Chris B Date: 7/31/2010
Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14669 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/31/2010
Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14670 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/31/2010
Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
Group: vintageHO Message: 14671 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 7/31/2010
Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14672 From: jim heckard Date: 7/31/2010
Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone
Group: vintageHO Message: 14673 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/31/2010
Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone
Group: vintageHO Message: 14674 From: jim heckard Date: 8/1/2010
Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone
Group: vintageHO Message: 14675 From: jim heckard Date: 8/1/2010
Subject: Update on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14676 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 8/1/2010
Subject: MRH August Newsletter Available On Line
Group: vintageHO Message: 14677 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: Update on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14678 From: Chris B Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: Update on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14679 From: MikeS Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: Update on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14680 From: jim heckard Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: Update on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14681 From: jim heckard Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: train ride, please indulge me
Group: vintageHO Message: 14682 From: gary pardue Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: train ride, please indulge me
Group: vintageHO Message: 14683 From: Chris B Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: train ride, please indulge me
Group: vintageHO Message: 14684 From: Garry Spear Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Varney Cardboard Sided Cars Listed on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 14685 From: jim heckard Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: Update on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14686 From: rcjge Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: Nice Varney, Steam Now Mantua Shark
Group: vintageHO Message: 14687 From: rcjge Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14688 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14689 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14690 From: rcjge Date: 8/2/2010
Subject: Re: train ride, please indulge me
Group: vintageHO Message: 14691 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: train ride, please indulge me
Group: vintageHO Message: 14692 From: jim heckard Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Boiler band
Group: vintageHO Message: 14693 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14694 From: Dick Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14695 From: jim heckard Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Tender of the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14696 From: jim heckard Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Much better
Group: vintageHO Message: 14697 From: rcjge Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14698 From: Ken Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Old DC motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 14699 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Old DC motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 14700 From: Ken Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Old DC motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 14701 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Old DC motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 14702 From: louis niederlander Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Old DC motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 14703 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14704 From: jim heckard Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14705 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14706 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14707 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14708 From: Ken Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Old DC motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 14709 From: tom leen Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14710 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/3/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14711 From: Joe Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14712 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14713 From: jim heckard Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight
Group: vintageHO Message: 14714 From: John H Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14715 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14716 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14717 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14718 From: jim heckard Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14719 From: Mike Sloane Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14720 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14721 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14722 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14723 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14724 From: trainliker Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14725 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14726 From: Chris B Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14727 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14728 From: Matthew Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Much better
Group: vintageHO Message: 14729 From: jbark76 Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Old DC motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 14730 From: jbark76 Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Old DC motors -GOOF-
Group: vintageHO Message: 14731 From: rcjge Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14732 From: RalphB Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Old DC motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 14733 From: John H Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14734 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14735 From: Nelson B Date: 8/4/2010
Subject: Re: Much better
Group: vintageHO Message: 14736 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: odd engine modifications; Articulated Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14737 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14738 From: jim heckard Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: odd engine modifications; Articulated Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14739 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: odd engine modifications; Articulated Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14740 From: RalphB Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14741 From: Fred Stevens K2FRD Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
Group: vintageHO Message: 14742 From: jim heckard Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Tender detail
Group: vintageHO Message: 14743 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
Group: vintageHO Message: 14744 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
Group: vintageHO Message: 14745 From: Richard Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
Group: vintageHO Message: 14746 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
Group: vintageHO Message: 14747 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
Group: vintageHO Message: 14748 From: jim heckard Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14749 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14750 From: Carl Neste Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
Group: vintageHO Message: 14751 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14752 From: tom leen Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
Group: vintageHO Message: 14753 From: rcjge Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
Group: vintageHO Message: 14754 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/5/2010
Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
Group: vintageHO Message: 14755 From: rcjge Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
Group: vintageHO Message: 14756 From: rcjge Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14757 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
Group: vintageHO Message: 14758 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14759 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: SP Stuff for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 14760 From: jbark76 Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Re: Old DC motors
Group: vintageHO Message: 14761 From: Dick Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
Group: vintageHO Message: 14762 From: Dick Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14763 From: John H Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14764 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14765 From: pineconelumberng@sbcglobal.net Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Vintage Rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14766 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/6/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14767 From: Matthew Date: 8/7/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Rolling Stock
Group: vintageHO Message: 14768 From: Randolph Torres Date: 8/8/2010
Subject: Selling old discontinued kits, e-mail off group for avaliability
Group: vintageHO Message: 14769 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/8/2010
Subject: Re: Selling old discontinued kits, e-mail off group for avaliability
Group: vintageHO Message: 14770 From: leetrains Date: 8/8/2010
Subject: Re: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
Group: vintageHO Message: 14771 From: rcjge Date: 8/8/2010
Subject: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
Group: vintageHO Message: 14772 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Winton 2-6-6-6 Auction
Group: vintageHO Message: 14773 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Auction
Group: vintageHO Message: 14774 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14775 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
Group: vintageHO Message: 14776 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14777 From: Rick Jones Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14778 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Auction
Group: vintageHO Message: 14779 From: Richard Kurz Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14780 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14781 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14782 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14783 From: nvrr49 Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14784 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14785 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
Group: vintageHO Message: 14786 From: VtHam Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS
Group: vintageHO Message: 14787 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Overland Oil Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 14788 From: Chris B Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
Group: vintageHO Message: 14789 From: Chris B Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
Group: vintageHO Message: 14790 From: Roger Aultman Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14791 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14792 From: tomvanhoy Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Hobbyline tanker repair help
Group: vintageHO Message: 14793 From: rcjge Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
Group: vintageHO Message: 14794 From: toytrain13 Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Red Ball Borden's Milk Tank Car kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14795 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Globe / Lindsay L-1180 drive
Group: vintageHO Message: 14796 From: Marlene Mahoney Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: no more member? how did that happen
Group: vintageHO Message: 14797 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/9/2010
Subject: Re: no more member? how did that happen
Group: vintageHO Message: 14798 From: Mike Sloane Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Re: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14799 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Re: Overland Oil Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 14800 From: Richard Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Re: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14801 From: jim heckard Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: The beast is back
Group: vintageHO Message: 14802 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Re: The beast is back [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14803 From: John H Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Re: The beast is back
Group: vintageHO Message: 14804 From: Nelson B Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Re: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14805 From: nvrr49 Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14806 From: nvrr49 Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Borden's Milk Tank Car kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 14807 From: rcjge Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Globe F-7
Group: vintageHO Message: 14808 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Re: Globe F-7
Group: vintageHO Message: 14809 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 8/10/2010
Subject: Re: Globe F-7
Group: vintageHO Message: 14810 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: Globe F-7
Group: vintageHO Message: 14811 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14812 From: jim heckard Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14813 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14814 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14815 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14816 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14817 From: Ken Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History Highliners... A bit OT but important
Group: vintageHO Message: 14818 From: Chris B Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: ID? vintage sheet metal F unit on ebay?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14819 From: Lawrence Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14820 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 14821 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 14822 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 14823 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Colored Plastic
Group: vintageHO Message: 14824 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14825 From: jim heckard Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Globe / Athearn & Carnation Milk Promo
Group: vintageHO Message: 14826 From: jim heckard Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: ID? vintage sheet metal F unit on ebay? [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14827 From: Dale Smith Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14828 From: trainliker Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14829 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History Highliners... A bit OT but important
Group: vintageHO Message: 14830 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14831 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14832 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14833 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: ID? vintage sheet metal F unit on ebay?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14834 From: Roger Aultman Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: VARNEY PLASTIC
Group: vintageHO Message: 14835 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: VARNEY PLASTIC [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14836 From: rcjge Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: HO scale Rotating Mars light?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14837 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: F7 Model History
Group: vintageHO Message: 14838 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/11/2010
Subject: Re: Colored Plastic
Group: vintageHO Message: 14839 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Re: HO scale Rotating Mars light?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14840 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Re: HO scale Rotating Mars light?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14841 From: Lawrence Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 14842 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14843 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Re: Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14844 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 14845 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
Group: vintageHO Message: 14846 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Re: Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14847 From: Chris B Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Re: Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14848 From: jim heckard Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Schrader EP-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 14849 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Re: Schrader EP-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 14850 From: jim heckard Date: 8/12/2010
Subject: Re: Schrader EP-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 14851 From: jim heckard Date: 8/13/2010
Subject: Schrader EP-4
Group: vintageHO Message: 14852 From: jim heckard Date: 8/13/2010
Subject: Schrader Box and Guarantee card
Group: vintageHO Message: 14853 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Varney V-1 motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 14854 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: "Unpainting"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14855 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 14856 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 14857 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 14858 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: "Unpainting"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14859 From: Rick Jones Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: "Unpainting"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14860 From: rcjge Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14861 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 14862 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
Group: vintageHO Message: 14863 From: jerrygart5 Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: Jim's "beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14864 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: Jim's "beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14865 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14866 From: rcjge Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14867 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: some "Beast" progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 14868 From: ron plyler Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14869 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14870 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Penn Line, Bowser OR John English ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14871 From: gary pardue Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: Jim's "beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14872 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: some "Beast" progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 14873 From: Jim Waterman Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14874 From: jbark76 Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14875 From: trainliker Date: 8/14/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14876 From: Chris B Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14877 From: rcjge Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14878 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14879 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: JE Tender sold to PL
Group: vintageHO Message: 14880 From: rcjge Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14881 From: Nelson B Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: "Unpainting"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14882 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: PL in oval
Group: vintageHO Message: 14883 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: Band for Mantua beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14884 From: jbark76 Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: JE Tender sold to PL
Group: vintageHO Message: 14885 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
Group: vintageHO Message: 14886 From: gary pardue Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14887 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
Group: vintageHO Message: 14888 From: gary pardue Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
Group: vintageHO Message: 14889 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
Group: vintageHO Message: 14890 From: gary pardue Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
Group: vintageHO Message: 14891 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
Group: vintageHO Message: 14892 From: Nelson B Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
Group: vintageHO Message: 14893 From: Randolph Torres Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Freight cars for sale unbuilt, some plastic most wood.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14894 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 8/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
Group: vintageHO Message: 14895 From: gary pardue Date: 8/16/2010
Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
Group: vintageHO Message: 14896 From: jim heckard Date: 8/16/2010
Subject: epoxy used
Group: vintageHO Message: 14897 From: Nelson B Date: 8/16/2010
Subject: Re: epoxy used
Group: vintageHO Message: 14898 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: epoxy used
Group: vintageHO Message: 14899 From: al45390 Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14900 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14901 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: adding detail to the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14902 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: adding detail to the Beast [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14903 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: adding detail to the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14904 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14905 From: John H Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14906 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14907 From: John H Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14908 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Albums, Photos, Thumbnails, Pixels, Attachments
Group: vintageHO Message: 14909 From: Nelson B Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: epoxy used
Group: vintageHO Message: 14910 From: John H Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14911 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Just a test
Group: vintageHO Message: 14912 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: Just a test [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14913 From: John H Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: Just a test
Group: vintageHO Message: 14914 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Just a test Part 2
Group: vintageHO Message: 14915 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
Group: vintageHO Message: 14916 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: Just a test [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14917 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: Just a test [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14918 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/17/2010
Subject: Re: Just a test
Group: vintageHO Message: 14919 From: jim heckard Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: small details on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14920 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: small details on the Beast [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14921 From: jim heckard Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14922 From: CinderCrusher Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14923 From: Garry Spear Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14924 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14925 From: Garry Spear Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14926 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14927 From: Garry Spear Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14928 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14929 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14930 From: CinderCrusher Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14931 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/19/2010
Subject: Re: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
Group: vintageHO Message: 14932 From: jerrygart5 Date: 8/20/2010
Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14933 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/20/2010
Subject: for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 14934 From: jim heckard Date: 8/20/2010
Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14935 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/20/2010
Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14936 From: rcjge Date: 8/20/2010
Subject: ID help?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14937 From: Richard Date: 8/20/2010
Subject: Rebuilding an Athearn B&M P4 Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 14938 From: David J. Starr Date: 8/21/2010
Subject: Re: Rebuilding an Athearn B&M P4 Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 14939 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/21/2010
Subject: Re: Rebuilding an Athearn B&M P4 Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 14940 From: Nelson B Date: 8/21/2010
Subject: Re: Rebuilding an Athearn B&M P4 Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 14941 From: jbark76 Date: 8/22/2010
Subject: Re: ID help?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14942 From: rcjge Date: 8/22/2010
Subject: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
Group: vintageHO Message: 14943 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 8/22/2010
Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
Group: vintageHO Message: 14944 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/22/2010
Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
Group: vintageHO Message: 14945 From: Ken Date: 8/22/2010
Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
Group: vintageHO Message: 14946 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/22/2010
Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
Group: vintageHO Message: 14947 From: Mike Sloane Date: 8/22/2010
Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
Group: vintageHO Message: 14948 From: jim heckard Date: 8/23/2010
Subject: Need to find
Group: vintageHO Message: 14949 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/23/2010
Subject: Re: Need to find [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14950 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/23/2010
Subject: Re: Need to find
Group: vintageHO Message: 14951 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/23/2010
Subject: Re: Need to find [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14952 From: jim heckard Date: 8/23/2010
Subject: Re: Need to find
Group: vintageHO Message: 14953 From: jim heckard Date: 8/23/2010
Subject: Re: Need to find
Group: vintageHO Message: 14954 From: jim heckard Date: 8/23/2010
Subject: Re: Need to find
Group: vintageHO Message: 14955 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/23/2010
Subject: Re: Need to find
Group: vintageHO Message: 14956 From: Nelson B Date: 8/23/2010
Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
Group: vintageHO Message: 14957 From: charlie@tech-j.biz Date: 8/23/2010
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 14958 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/24/2010
Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
Group: vintageHO Message: 14959 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/24/2010
Subject: resin dome
Group: vintageHO Message: 14960 From: John Hagen Date: 8/24/2010
Subject: Re: Need to find
Group: vintageHO Message: 14961 From: jim heckard Date: 8/24/2010
Subject: Re: Need to find [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14962 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/24/2010
Subject: Re: Need to find [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14963 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 8/24/2010
Subject: UP Gas Turbine
Group: vintageHO Message: 14964 From: al45390 Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: American Beauty HO Aluminum C & O 85' Coach B862
Group: vintageHO Message: 14965 From: jim heckard Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Slow Progress on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14966 From: Walter Bayer Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14967 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14968 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14969 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14970 From: John H Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Photos not shpwing (Re: Slow Progress on the Beast)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14971 From: John H Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Photos not showing (Re: Slow Progress on the Beast)
Group: vintageHO Message: 14972 From: jim heckard Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Slow Progress on the Beast
Group: vintageHO Message: 14973 From: jim heckard Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 14974 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 14975 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14976 From: jbark76 Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: American Beauty HO Aluminum C & O 85' Coach B862
Group: vintageHO Message: 14977 From: John H Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14978 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14979 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: UP Gas Turbine
Group: vintageHO Message: 14980 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 14981 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: American Beauty HO Aluminum C & O 85' Coach B862
Group: vintageHO Message: 14982 From: charlie@tech-j.biz Date: 8/25/2010
Subject: Re: UP Gas Turbine
Group: vintageHO Message: 14983 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/26/2010
Subject: Re: UP Gas Turbine
Group: vintageHO Message: 14984 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/26/2010
Subject: Re: American Beauty HO Aluminum C & O 85' Coach B862
Group: vintageHO Message: 14985 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/26/2010
Subject: Re: American Beauty HO Aluminum C & O 85' Coach B862
Group: vintageHO Message: 14986 From: Lawrence Date: 8/26/2010
Subject: Dale's Aluminum Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 14987 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/26/2010
Subject: Re: UP Gas Turbine
Group: vintageHO Message: 14988 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/26/2010
Subject: Re: Dale's Aluminum Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 14989 From: jbark76 Date: 8/26/2010
Subject: photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 14990 From: jim heckard Date: 8/27/2010
Subject: Beast before paint
Group: vintageHO Message: 14991 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/27/2010
Subject: Re: Beast before paint [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14992 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 8/27/2010
Subject: Re: Beast before paint
Group: vintageHO Message: 14993 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/27/2010
Subject: Re: Beast before paint [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14994 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Beast before paint [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14995 From: jim heckard Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14996 From: tom leen Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 14997 From: rcjge Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14998 From: jim heckard Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
Group: vintageHO Message: 14999 From: George Frey Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15000 From: Roger Aultman Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15001 From: Richard White Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15002 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15003 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15004 From: rcjge Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15005 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15006 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15007 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15008 From: jim heckard Date: 8/28/2010
Subject: Thanks for the responses
Group: vintageHO Message: 15009 From: midpoint37 Date: 8/29/2010
Subject: Re: Thanks for the responses
Group: vintageHO Message: 15010 From: Matthew Date: 8/29/2010
Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15011 From: jim heckard Date: 8/29/2010
Subject: Fantasy Classification and Decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 15012 From: Nelson B Date: 8/29/2010
Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15013 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 8/29/2010
Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15014 From: VtHam Date: 8/29/2010
Subject: Thanks for the responses
Group: vintageHO Message: 15015 From: jim heckard Date: 8/30/2010
Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15016 From: fchlupptrains Date: 8/30/2010
Subject: Globe tank car parts wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 15017 From: RalphB Date: 8/30/2010
Subject: Re: Fantasy Classification and Decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 15018 From: Joe Date: 8/30/2010
Subject: Re: Fantasy Classification and Decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 15019 From: jim heckard Date: 8/30/2010
Subject: The search is on
Group: vintageHO Message: 15020 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 8/31/2010
Subject: Re: [Fantasy Classification and Decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 15021 From: Nelson B Date: 8/31/2010
Subject: Re: Fantasy Classification and Decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 15022 From: jim heckard Date: 8/31/2010
Subject: Re: [Fantasy Classification and Decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 15023 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/31/2010
Subject: Re: Fantasy Classification and Decals [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15024 From: Joe Date: 9/1/2010
Subject: Re: [Fantasy Classification and Decals
Group: vintageHO Message: 15025 From: Russ Shiel Date: 9/2/2010
Subject: Bee-Jay models
Group: vintageHO Message: 15026 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Re: Bee-Jay models
Group: vintageHO Message: 15027 From: jbark76 Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Re: The search is on
Group: vintageHO Message: 15028 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Re: The search is on
Group: vintageHO Message: 15029 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Re: The search is on
Group: vintageHO Message: 15030 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Re: The search is on
Group: vintageHO Message: 15031 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Re: The search is on
Group: vintageHO Message: 15032 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Re: The search is on
Group: vintageHO Message: 15033 From: John H Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Re: The search is on
Group: vintageHO Message: 15034 From: Garry Spear Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: FS: MANTUA Sinclair tank Car, Paper Wrapper, Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 15035 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Re: FS: MANTUA Sinclair tank Car, Paper Wrapper, Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 15036 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: open pix
Group: vintageHO Message: 15037 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Conover S-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 15038 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Re: FS: MANTUA Sinclair tank Car, Paper Wrapper, Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 15039 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
Subject: Original Conover -1 castings
Group: vintageHO Message: 15040 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 9/4/2010
Subject: Another of the what is it questions
Group: vintageHO Message: 15041 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/4/2010
Subject: Re: Another of the what is it questions [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15042 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/4/2010
Subject: Re: Another of the what is it questions [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15043 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/4/2010
Subject: Re: Another of the what is it questions [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15044 From: nvrr49 Date: 9/4/2010
Subject: Re: Another of the what is it questions [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15045 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 9/7/2010
Subject: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15046 From: jim heckard Date: 9/7/2010
Subject: Beast update
Group: vintageHO Message: 15047 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 9/7/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15048 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15049 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15050 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15051 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15052 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15053 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15054 From: rcjge Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15055 From: RalphB Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15056 From: jim heckard Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15057 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15058 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15059 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15060 From: rcjge Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15061 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15062 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Fwd: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 15063 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15064 From: John Barlow Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: Fwd: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 15065 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Fwd: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures, Thank you for the link to "
Group: vintageHO Message: 15066 From: jim heckard Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15067 From: Rick Jones Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15068 From: Rick Jones Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15069 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15070 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15071 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15072 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15073 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15074 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 9/8/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15075 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/9/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15076 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/9/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15077 From: Denny Anspach Date: 9/9/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15078 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/9/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15079 From: Morgan Smith Date: 9/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lancaster and shops
Group: vintageHO Message: 15080 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/9/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15081 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lancaster and shops
Group: vintageHO Message: 15082 From: jim heckard Date: 9/9/2010
Subject: HO Museums
Group: vintageHO Message: 15083 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 9/9/2010
Subject: Re: Lancaster and shops
Group: vintageHO Message: 15084 From: rcjge Date: 9/9/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15085 From: rcjge Date: 9/10/2010
Subject: Re: HO Museums
Group: vintageHO Message: 15086 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/10/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15087 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 9/10/2010
Subject: New MRH eZine is Available Free
Group: vintageHO Message: 15088 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/10/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15089 From: Chris B Date: 9/10/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15090 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/10/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15091 From: Chris B Date: 9/10/2010
Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15092 From: Randolph Torres Date: 9/10/2010
Subject: Books, magazines and art work which might be of interest to this gro
Group: vintageHO Message: 15093 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 9/11/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15094 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 9/11/2010
Subject: Willy's Boxcar - (Walthers' Silver Streak)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15095 From: Garry Spear Date: 9/12/2010
Subject: Re: FS: MANTUA Sinclair tank Car, Paper Wrapper, Winton 2-6-6-6
Group: vintageHO Message: 15096 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 9/15/2010
Subject: Missed one this past week!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15097 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 9/15/2010
Subject: Pre-war H0 to trade
Group: vintageHO Message: 15098 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/15/2010
Subject: Re: Pre-war H0 to trade
Group: vintageHO Message: 15099 From: jim heckard Date: 9/16/2010
Subject: Any ideas ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15100 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/16/2010
Subject: Re: Any ideas ??? [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15101 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/16/2010
Subject: Re: Any ideas ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15102 From: Chris B Date: 9/16/2010
Subject: Re: Any ideas ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15103 From: jim heckard Date: 9/16/2010
Subject: any ideas ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15104 From: jim heckard Date: 9/16/2010
Subject: Re: Any ideas ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15105 From: Chris B Date: 9/16/2010
Subject: Re: Any ideas ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15106 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/17/2010
Subject: Re: Pre-war H0 to trade
Group: vintageHO Message: 15107 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 9/17/2010
Subject: Re: Pre-war H0 to trade
Group: vintageHO Message: 15108 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 9/17/2010
Subject: Re: Pre-war H0 to trade
Group: vintageHO Message: 15109 From: Brent Date: 9/18/2010
Subject: Con Cor SW7
Group: vintageHO Message: 15110 From: RalphB Date: 9/18/2010
Subject: Re: Con Cor SW7
Group: vintageHO Message: 15111 From: toytrain13 Date: 9/18/2010
Subject: Unknown passenger cars on EBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15112 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/18/2010
Subject: Re: Con Cor SW7
Group: vintageHO Message: 15113 From: jim heckard Date: 9/19/2010
Subject: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15114 From: George Frey Date: 9/19/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15115 From: jim heckard Date: 9/19/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15116 From: Riverboy Date: 9/19/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15117 From: jim heckard Date: 9/19/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15118 From: jim heckard Date: 9/20/2010
Subject: New Project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15119 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/20/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15120 From: Gary Woodard Date: 9/20/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15121 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 9/22/2010
Subject: 1 Geared Wheel Set for a Rivarossi GG1 Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 15122 From: Nelson Date: 9/22/2010
Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set for a Rivarossi GG1 Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 15123 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/22/2010
Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set for a Rivarossi GG1 Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 15124 From: Nelson Date: 9/22/2010
Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set for a Rivarossi GG1 Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 15125 From: krh54 Date: 9/22/2010
Subject: Diecast Athearn Crane instructions Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 15126 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 9/22/2010
Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
Group: vintageHO Message: 15127 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/23/2010
Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
Group: vintageHO Message: 15128 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/23/2010
Subject: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15129 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/23/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15130 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 9/23/2010
Subject: Re: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15131 From: Gary Woodard Date: 9/23/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15132 From: jim heckard Date: 9/23/2010
Subject: Conover items
Group: vintageHO Message: 15133 From: jim heckard Date: 9/23/2010
Subject: Question about post war Conover owner
Group: vintageHO Message: 15134 From: RalphB Date: 9/23/2010
Subject: Re: Con Cor SW7
Group: vintageHO Message: 15135 From: jim heckard Date: 9/23/2010
Subject: winning bid, new project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15136 From: litant@yahoo.com Date: 9/23/2010
Subject: Re: Diecast Athearn Crane instructions Needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 15137 From: Larry Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: A Bunch of Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 15138 From: jbark76 Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15139 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15140 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15141 From: erieberk Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15142 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: A Bunch of Varney
Group: vintageHO Message: 15143 From: rcjge Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15144 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15145 From: rcjge Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15146 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15147 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15148 From: Brent Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: Con Cor SW7
Group: vintageHO Message: 15149 From: jbark76 Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15150 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15151 From: Nelson Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
Group: vintageHO Message: 15152 From: erieberk Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: Original Conover -1 castings
Group: vintageHO Message: 15153 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: Original Conover -1 castings
Group: vintageHO Message: 15154 From: erieberk Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 15155 From: Nelson Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15156 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 15157 From: erieberk Date: 9/24/2010
Subject: Re: Question about post war Conover owner
Group: vintageHO Message: 15158 From: erieberk Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Re: Lockhart Freight Car Additions, and Charlen
Group: vintageHO Message: 15159 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Conover 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 15160 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15161 From: erieberk Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 15162 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 15163 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Stock GG-1 / Schrader GG-1
Group: vintageHO Message: 15164 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Re: Lockhart Freight Car Additions, and Charlen
Group: vintageHO Message: 15165 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 15166 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 15167 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 15168 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO Message: 15169 From: jim heckard Date: 9/26/2010
Subject: Album Pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 15170 From: jim heckard Date: 9/26/2010
Subject: your comment
Group: vintageHO Message: 15171 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 9/26/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 15172 From: erieberk Date: 9/27/2010
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 15173 From: Robert the N. Date: 9/27/2010
Subject: Mystery wheel sets
Group: vintageHO Message: 15174 From: jbark76 Date: 9/27/2010
Subject: Re: Album Pictures
Group: vintageHO Message: 15175 From: jbark76 Date: 9/27/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery wheel sets
Group: vintageHO Message: 15176 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery wheel sets
Group: vintageHO Message: 15177 From: Robert the N. Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Further on the mystery wheel sets
Group: vintageHO Message: 15178 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 15179 From: James Bartelt Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Further on the mystery wheel sets
Group: vintageHO Message: 15180 From: jim heckard Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Cliff Line 33" Freight Car Wheels
Group: vintageHO Message: 15181 From: Walter Bayer Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Further on the mystery wheel sets
Group: vintageHO Message: 15182 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery Wheelsets
Group: vintageHO Message: 15183 From: Randolph Torres Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Railroad books for sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 15184 From: dickybee2000 Date: 9/28/2010
Subject: Vintage cars needing identification
Group: vintageHO Message: 15185 From: Garry Spear Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage cars needing identification
Group: vintageHO Message: 15186 From: Robert the N. Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage cars needing identification
Group: vintageHO Message: 15187 From: erieberk Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage cars needing identification
Group: vintageHO Message: 15188 From: dickybee2000 Date: 9/29/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage cars needing identification
Group: vintageHO Message: 15189 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 9/30/2010
Subject: Wheelsets
Group: vintageHO Message: 15190 From: jim heckard Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Conover project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15191 From: Randolph Torres Date: 10/1/2010
Subject: Items for sale which might interest this group.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15192 From: Nelson Date: 10/2/2010
Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
Group: vintageHO Message: 15193 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/2/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15194 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/2/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15195 From: hooligan Date: 10/2/2010
Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
Group: vintageHO Message: 15196 From: George Frey Date: 10/2/2010
Subject: Re: something wrong
Group: vintageHO Message: 15197 From: Nelson Date: 10/3/2010
Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
Group: vintageHO Message: 15198 From: Don Hud Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15199 From: jbark76 Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15200 From: Robert Karnisky Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15201 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15202 From: trainliker Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15203 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15204 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15205 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15206 From: John H Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15207 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15208 From: John H Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15209 From: Don Hud Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15210 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Varney question(s)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15211 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15212 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/8/2010
Subject: Re: Varney question(s)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15213 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15214 From: Fred Krause Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15215 From: George Frey Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: reserve feesE-bay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15216 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: reserve feesE-bay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15217 From: George Frey Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: reserve feesE-bay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15218 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: reserve feesE-bay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15219 From: George Frey Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: reserve feesE-bay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15220 From: George Frey Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: appoligy/ebay reserve fees
Group: vintageHO Message: 15221 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: appoligy/ebay reserve fees
Group: vintageHO Message: 15222 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: Varney question(s)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15223 From: George Frey Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: appoligy/ebay reserve fees
Group: vintageHO Message: 15224 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: SP Overnite Merchandise Boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 15225 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: SP Overnite Merchandise Boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 15226 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: SP Overnite Merchandise Boxcar
Group: vintageHO Message: 15227 From: nvrr49 Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15228 From: nvrr49 Date: 10/9/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15229 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15230 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: Shipping cost (was eBay question about reserves)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15231 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15232 From: John H Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15233 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15234 From: Robert Karnisky Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15235 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15236 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15237 From: George Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15238 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15239 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15240 From: John H Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15241 From: trainliker Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15242 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15243 From: trainliker Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15244 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15245 From: pineconelumberng@sbcglobal.net Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15246 From: George Date: 10/10/2010
Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
Group: vintageHO Message: 15247 From: John Barlow Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15249 From: John H Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15250 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15251 From: jay matz Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15252 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15253 From: jay matz Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15254 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15255 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15256 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15257 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15258 From: John Hagen Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15259 From: CinderCrusher Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15260 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15261 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/11/2010
Subject: Late 40's Varney stock car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15262 From: Russ Shiel Date: 10/12/2010
Subject: Quality Craft build sheet
Group: vintageHO Message: 15263 From: Denny Anspach Date: 10/12/2010
Subject: Late 40's Varney stock car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15264 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/12/2010
Subject: Re: Late 40's Varney stock car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15265 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/12/2010
Subject: Late 40's Varney stock car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15266 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/12/2010
Subject: Late 40's Varney stock car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15267 From: John H Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15268 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15269 From: John H Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter morphed into Mantua Booster and morphing into Var
Group: vintageHO Message: 15270 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter morphed into Mantua Booster and morphing into Var
Group: vintageHO Message: 15271 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15272 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15273 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15274 From: John H Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15275 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15276 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15277 From: 23weldon Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Late 40's Varney stock car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15278 From: Roger Aultman Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15279 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15280 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15281 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
Group: vintageHO Message: 15282 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Help identify year or years, please
Group: vintageHO Message: 15283 From: Russ Shiel Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Help identify year or years, please
Group: vintageHO Message: 15284 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Re: Help identify year or years, please
Group: vintageHO Message: 15285 From: Russ Shiel Date: 10/13/2010
Subject: Menzies 50' round-roof NP autobox
Group: vintageHO Message: 15286 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Re: Menzies 50' round-roof NP autobox
Group: vintageHO Message: 15287 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Re: Menzies 50' round-roof NP autobox
Group: vintageHO Message: 15288 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Re: Menzies 50' round-roof NP autobox
Group: vintageHO Message: 15289 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: String of cars with Mantuas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15290 From: jbark76 Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Re: String of cars with Mantuas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15291 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Re: String of cars with Mantuas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15292 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Puzzled.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15293 From: jim heckard Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Conover Progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 15294 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Mantua Loop Couplers - Question about locomotives
Group: vintageHO Message: 15295 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Couplers - Question about locomotives
Group: vintageHO Message: 15296 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Couplers - Question about locomotives
Group: vintageHO Message: 15297 From: jim heckard Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: One for the books
Group: vintageHO Message: 15298 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Re: One for the books
Group: vintageHO Message: 15299 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
Subject: Amazing
Group: vintageHO Message: 15300 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Amazing
Group: vintageHO Message: 15301 From: John H Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Amazing
Group: vintageHO Message: 15302 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15303 From: Mike Sloane Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15304 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15305 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15306 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Amazing
Group: vintageHO Message: 15307 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15308 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15309 From: John H Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15310 From: John H Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15311 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15312 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Conover Progress [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15313 From: hooligan Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15314 From: John H Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15315 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15316 From: hooligan Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15317 From: 23weldon Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: String of cars with Mantuas >> Baker couplers
Group: vintageHO Message: 15318 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: String of cars with Mantuas >> Baker couplers
Group: vintageHO Message: 15319 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Amazing
Group: vintageHO Message: 15320 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15321 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Mantua Cab Forward
Group: vintageHO Message: 15322 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Cab Forward
Group: vintageHO Message: 15323 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15324 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/15/2010
Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15325 From: Nelson Date: 10/16/2010
Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15326 From: hooligan Date: 10/16/2010
Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15327 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/16/2010
Subject: Some New Stuff
Group: vintageHO Message: 15328 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/16/2010
Subject: Fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15329 From: railroads@slingshot.co.nz Date: 10/16/2010
Subject: Photo on Groups - ID Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 15330 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: Fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15331 From: Fred Krause Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: (no subject)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15332 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: (unknown)-This is SPAM!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15333 From: Nelson Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: Photo on Groups - ID Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 15334 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: Photo on Groups - ID Wanted
Group: vintageHO Message: 15335 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: (unknown)-This is SPAM!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15336 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: (unknown)-This is SPAM!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15337 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: Fun!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15338 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: (unknown)-This is SPAM!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15339 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Staples
Group: vintageHO Message: 15340 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: Staples
Group: vintageHO Message: 15341 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: Staples
Group: vintageHO Message: 15342 From: Wally Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Can one of the group supply some information?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15343 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: Re: Can one of the group supply some information?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15344 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/17/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 15345 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 10/18/2010
Subject: Re: Can one of the group supply some information?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15346 From: jim heckard Date: 10/18/2010
Subject: Re: Can one of the group supply some information?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15347 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/18/2010
Subject: Re: Some New Stuff
Group: vintageHO Message: 15348 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/18/2010
Subject: Re: Some New Stuff
Group: vintageHO Message: 15349 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/18/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 15350 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/18/2010
Subject: Re: Some New Stuff
Group: vintageHO Message: 15351 From: jim heckard Date: 10/18/2010
Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15352 From: Matthew Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15353 From: Howard R Garner Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15354 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15355 From: jim heckard Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15356 From: jim heckard Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15357 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15358 From: jim heckard Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15359 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15360 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15361 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15362 From: earlyrail Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15363 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15364 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/19/2010
Subject: Bit the parts bullet
Group: vintageHO Message: 15365 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/20/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15366 From: Matthew Date: 10/20/2010
Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15367 From: jim heckard Date: 10/20/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15368 From: jim heckard Date: 10/20/2010
Subject: one small step forward
Group: vintageHO Message: 15369 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/20/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15370 From: Matthew Date: 10/21/2010
Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15371 From: jim heckard Date: 10/21/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15372 From: Richard White Date: 10/21/2010
Subject: Re: one small step forward [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15373 From: Matthew Date: 10/22/2010
Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15374 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/22/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15375 From: Matthew Date: 10/23/2010
Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
Group: vintageHO Message: 15376 From: scrimjimmy Date: 10/23/2010
Subject: Help needed Identifing Vintage CNW Pacific Steam Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 15377 From: jim heckard Date: 10/23/2010
Subject: Winton Information
Group: vintageHO Message: 15378 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/23/2010
Subject: Re: Help needed Identifing Vintage CNW Pacific Steam Loco
Group: vintageHO Message: 15379 From: jim heckard Date: 10/23/2010
Subject: Unknown Pacific ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15380 From: jim heckard Date: 10/23/2010
Subject: Unknown Pacific
Group: vintageHO Message: 15381 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/23/2010
Subject: Those Pacific photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 15382 From: James Bartelt Date: 10/23/2010
Subject: Re: Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15383 From: jim heckard Date: 10/24/2010
Subject: Re: Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15384 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/24/2010
Subject: Re: Those Pacific photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 15385 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/24/2010
Subject: Re: Those Pacific photos
Group: vintageHO Message: 15386 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/24/2010
Subject: Re: Gate video
Group: vintageHO Message: 15387 From: jim heckard Date: 10/24/2010
Subject: Re: Gate video
Group: vintageHO Message: 15388 From: Richard White Date: 10/24/2010
Subject: Re: Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15389 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/24/2010
Subject: Couple of parts needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 15390 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/24/2010
Subject: Re: Gate video
Group: vintageHO Message: 15391 From: jim heckard Date: 10/25/2010
Subject: Winton HO Live Steam Drawings
Group: vintageHO Message: 15392 From: jim heckard Date: 10/25/2010
Subject: Winton HO Live Steam
Group: vintageHO Message: 15393 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/25/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 15394 From: Ralph in SYR Date: 10/26/2010
Subject: Re: Shipping cost (was eBay question about reserves)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15395 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/29/2010
Subject: converting Athearn switcher to 33" wheels
Group: vintageHO Message: 15396 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/31/2010
Subject: Re: Gate video
Group: vintageHO Message: 15397 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 10/31/2010
Subject: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15398 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 10/31/2010
Subject: REQUEST
Group: vintageHO Message: 15399 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 10/31/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15400 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 11/1/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15401 From: al45390 Date: 11/1/2010
Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 15402 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/1/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15403 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/1/2010
Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 15404 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/1/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15405 From: al45390 Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15406 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15407 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15408 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15409 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15410 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15411 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15412 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15413 From: jodanjackkayla@yahoo.com Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15414 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15415 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15416 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/2/2010
Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15417 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/3/2010
Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15418 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/3/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15419 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/3/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15420 From: bbbogart56 Date: 11/3/2010
Subject: Selling??
Group: vintageHO Message: 15421 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/3/2010
Subject: Re: Selling??
Group: vintageHO Message: 15422 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/3/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15423 From: bbbogart56 Date: 11/3/2010
Subject: Re: Selling??
Group: vintageHO Message: 15424 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/3/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15425 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/3/2010
Subject: Re: Selling??
Group: vintageHO Message: 15426 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/4/2010
Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15427 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/4/2010
Subject: Mystery salvage passenger cars
Group: vintageHO Message: 15428 From: Richard White Date: 11/6/2010
Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15429 From: Jim Waterman Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15430 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15431 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15432 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Ideal Bridge
Group: vintageHO Message: 15433 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Ideal Bridge [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15434 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ideal Bridge
Group: vintageHO Message: 15435 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/7/2010
Subject: Re: Ideal Bridge [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15436 From: Rod Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Am I at the right place?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15437 From: Tod D Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15438 From: jim heckard Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Conover 2-10-2 Project
Group: vintageHO Message: 15439 From: jim heckard Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15440 From: Riverboy Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15441 From: jim heckard Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Am I at the right place?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15442 From: jim heckard Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15443 From: Riverboy Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15444 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Am I at the right place?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15445 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2 Project [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15446 From: al45390 Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15447 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/9/2010
Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15448 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 11/10/2010
Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15449 From: Graeme Date: 11/10/2010
Subject: Re: Am I at the right place?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15450 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/10/2010
Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15451 From: jim heckard Date: 11/10/2010
Subject: Marx Passenger vs Tenshodo
Group: vintageHO Message: 15452 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 11/10/2010
Subject: Re: Marx Passenger vs Tenshodo [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15453 From: Rod Date: 11/10/2010
Subject: Re: Am I at the right place?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15454 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/10/2010
Subject: Re: Marx Passenger vs Tenshodo [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15455 From: midpoint37 Date: 11/10/2010
Subject: Re: Ideal Bridge [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15456 From: jim heckard Date: 11/11/2010
Subject: HObbyline 40' Gondola, Rarity
Group: vintageHO Message: 15457 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/11/2010
Subject: Reducing collection.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15458 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/11/2010
Subject: Couple of parts needed
Group: vintageHO Message: 15459 From: jim heckard Date: 11/11/2010
Subject: Two steps forward, none back
Group: vintageHO Message: 15460 From: Riverboy Date: 11/11/2010
Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola, Rarity
Group: vintageHO Message: 15461 From: Riverboy Date: 11/11/2010
Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola, Rarity (Photo)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15462 From: jay matz Date: 11/11/2010
Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15463 From: Riverboy Date: 11/11/2010
Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15464 From: jim heckard Date: 11/11/2010
Subject: Hobbyline 40" Gondola
Group: vintageHO Message: 15465 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/11/2010
Subject: Crescent A Unit
Group: vintageHO Message: 15466 From: Chris B Date: 11/13/2010
Subject: vintageHO on ebay (I'm not selling or bidding, just admiring a large
Group: vintageHO Message: 15467 From: jim heckard Date: 11/13/2010
Subject: More Conover baby steps
Group: vintageHO Message: 15468 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/14/2010
Subject: Trainfest 2010
Group: vintageHO Message: 15469 From: Roger Aultman Date: 11/14/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15470 From: jim heckard Date: 11/14/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15471 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/14/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15472 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/15/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
Group: vintageHO Message: 15473 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/15/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15474 From: RalphB Date: 11/15/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
Group: vintageHO Message: 15475 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 11/15/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
Group: vintageHO Message: 15476 From: hooligan Date: 11/15/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15477 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/15/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
Group: vintageHO Message: 15478 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/15/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
Group: vintageHO Message: 15479 From: RalphB Date: 11/16/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
Group: vintageHO Message: 15480 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 11/16/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
Group: vintageHO Message: 15481 From: al45390 Date: 11/17/2010
Subject: eBay listing says, "American Beauty", but ...
Group: vintageHO Message: 15482 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/17/2010
Subject: Re: eBay listing says, "American Beauty", but ...
Group: vintageHO Message: 15483 From: Nelson Date: 11/17/2010
Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
Group: vintageHO Message: 15484 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/17/2010
Subject: What the heck is this train ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15485 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/17/2010
Subject: Re: What the heck is this train ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15486 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/17/2010
Subject: Re: What the heck is this train ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15487 From: Rick Jones Date: 11/17/2010
Subject: Re: What the heck is this train ??? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15488 From: John H Date: 11/18/2010
Subject: Re: What the heck is this train ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15489 From: jim heckard Date: 11/18/2010
Subject: Further Conover Progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 15490 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/19/2010
Subject: Re: Further Conover Progress [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15491 From: jim heckard Date: 11/19/2010
Subject: Re: Further Conover Progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 15492 From: jim heckard Date: 11/19/2010
Subject: For Sale
Group: vintageHO Message: 15493 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/22/2010
Subject: Old Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 15494 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 11/22/2010
Subject: Re: Old Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 15495 From: David J. Starr Date: 11/22/2010
Subject: Re: Old Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 15496 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 11/22/2010
Subject: Re: Old Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 15497 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 11/22/2010
Subject: Re: Old Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 15498 From: RalphB Date: 11/22/2010
Subject: Hobbytown of Boston on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15499 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/23/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15500 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/23/2010
Subject: Re: Old Metal
Group: vintageHO Message: 15501 From: RalphB Date: 11/23/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15502 From: jim heckard Date: 11/24/2010
Subject: Gooble Gooble
Group: vintageHO Message: 15503 From: jim heckard Date: 11/24/2010
Subject: Conover baby step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15504 From: al45390 Date: 11/24/2010
Subject: Re: Conover baby step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15505 From: Jay Date: 11/24/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15506 From: Jay Date: 11/24/2010
Subject: Re: Conover baby step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15507 From: Jay Date: 11/24/2010
Subject: Turkey Day Wishes
Group: vintageHO Message: 15508 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/25/2010
Subject: Re: Gooble Gooble
Group: vintageHO Message: 15509 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 11/25/2010
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving, Fellow Vintage modelers!
Group: vintageHO Message: 15510 From: jim heckard Date: 11/26/2010
Subject: With luck right parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15512 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/27/2010
Subject: Re: (unknown)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15513 From: Tertius Coetzee Date: 11/28/2010
Subject: SHAY PROMOTIONAL CABOOSES
Group: vintageHO Message: 15514 From: Howard R Garner Date: 11/28/2010
Subject: Re: SHAY PROMOTIONAL CABOOSES
Group: vintageHO Message: 15515 From: Sean Naylor Date: 11/29/2010
Subject: Re: With luck right parts [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15516 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/29/2010
Subject: Re: With luck right parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15517 From: jim heckard Date: 11/29/2010
Subject: Conover Problem and Fix ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15518 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/29/2010
Subject: Re: Conover Problem and Fix ??? [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15519 From: jim heckard Date: 11/29/2010
Subject: Conover Problem and Fix ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15520 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 11/29/2010
Subject: Re: With luck right parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15521 From: RalphB Date: 11/30/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston on eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 15522 From: Nelson Date: 11/30/2010
Subject: Re: Conover Problem and Fix ???
Group: vintageHO Message: 15523 From: jim heckard Date: 11/30/2010
Subject: Conover Boiler / Frame Height
Group: vintageHO Message: 15524 From: Nelson Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Re: Conover Boiler / Frame Height
Group: vintageHO Message: 15525 From: jim heckard Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 15526 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15527 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15528 From: al45390 Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15529 From: John H Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15530 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 15531 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 15532 From: Nelson Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15533 From: Nelson Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 15534 From: John Webster Date: 12/1/2010
Subject: Re: SHAY PROMOTIONAL CABOOSES
Group: vintageHO Message: 15535 From: John Webster Date: 12/2/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 15536 From: jim heckard Date: 12/2/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15537 From: RalphB Date: 12/2/2010
Subject: Re: SHAY PROMOTIONAL CABOOSES
Group: vintageHO Message: 15538 From: John H Date: 12/2/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 15539 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 12/2/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 15540 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 12/2/2010
Subject: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15541 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/2/2010
Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15542 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/2/2010
Subject: Famoco GG1 parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15543 From: CinderCrusher Date: 12/2/2010
Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15544 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/2/2010
Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15545 From: RalphB Date: 12/3/2010
Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15546 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/3/2010
Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15547 From: Chris B Date: 12/3/2010
Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15548 From: Nelson Date: 12/3/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 15549 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 12/3/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 15550 From: theresebanks@verizon.net Date: 12/3/2010
Subject: Re: Famoco GG1 parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15551 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/4/2010
Subject: Re: Famoco GG1 parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15552 From: tieplatejunction Date: 12/4/2010
Subject: Doughnuts...
Group: vintageHO Message: 15553 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/5/2010
Subject: Re: Doughnuts...
Group: vintageHO Message: 15554 From: Nelson Date: 12/5/2010
Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
Group: vintageHO Message: 15555 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/5/2010
Subject: RedBall parts question
Group: vintageHO Message: 15556 From: Robert the N. Date: 12/5/2010
Subject: Re: RedBall parts question
Group: vintageHO Message: 15557 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 12/6/2010
Subject: Red Ball Turnbuckles
Group: vintageHO Message: 15558 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/6/2010
Subject: Car Identification
Group: vintageHO Message: 15559 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/6/2010
Subject: Re: Car Identification
Group: vintageHO Message: 15560 From: al45390 Date: 12/6/2010
Subject: Re: Car Identification
Group: vintageHO Message: 15561 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/6/2010
Subject: Re: Car Identification
Group: vintageHO Message: 15562 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/6/2010
Subject: Re: Car Identification
Group: vintageHO Message: 15563 From: tomvanhoy Date: 12/6/2010
Subject: Winton at auction
Group: vintageHO Message: 15564 From: jim heckard Date: 12/6/2010
Subject: Re: Winton at auction
Group: vintageHO Message: 15565 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/6/2010
Subject: Re: Winton at auction
Group: vintageHO Message: 15566 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/6/2010
Subject: Re: Winton at auction
Group: vintageHO Message: 15567 From: tomvanhoy Date: 12/7/2010
Subject: winton
Group: vintageHO Message: 15568 From: dennyanspach Date: 12/7/2010
Subject: Re: Winton at auction
Group: vintageHO Message: 15569 From: jim heckard Date: 12/7/2010
Subject: Red Ball ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15570 From: jim heckard Date: 12/7/2010
Subject: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15571 From: Richard White Date: 12/7/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15572 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 12/7/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15573 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/7/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball ? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15574 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15575 From: Matthew Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15576 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor
Group: vintageHO Message: 15577 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15578 From: Model RailRoad Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball ? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15579 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15580 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15581 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball ?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15582 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15583 From: Nelson Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15584 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15585 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15586 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15587 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15588 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15589 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor
Group: vintageHO Message: 15590 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15591 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/8/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15592 From: Jay Date: 12/9/2010
Subject: Trackside Specialties Connection Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tra
Group: vintageHO Message: 15593 From: Jay Date: 12/9/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15594 From: Jay Date: 12/9/2010
Subject: Re: Use for Red Ball Turnbuckle "Lugs"
Group: vintageHO Message: 15595 From: Nelson Date: 12/10/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15596 From: jim heckard Date: 12/10/2010
Subject: Re: Big Conover step
Group: vintageHO Message: 15597 From: JimW Date: 12/10/2010
Subject: Trackside Specialties Connection Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tra
Group: vintageHO Message: 15598 From: jim heckard Date: 12/11/2010
Subject: Started Conover Details
Group: vintageHO Message: 15599 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/12/2010
Subject: Re: Started Conover Details [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15600 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: Started Conover Details [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15601 From: Askerberg Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Nice Penn Line find
Group: vintageHO Message: 15602 From: Jay Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Trackside Specialties Connection Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tra
Group: vintageHO Message: 15603 From: Jay Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: Started Conover Details
Group: vintageHO Message: 15604 From: Jay Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: Nice Penn Line find
Group: vintageHO Message: 15605 From: jim heckard Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: Started Conover Details
Group: vintageHO Message: 15606 From: sottguy Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: Nice Penn Line find
Group: vintageHO Message: 15607 From: Askerberg Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: JC Silver Sides B60
Group: vintageHO Message: 15608 From: jim heckard Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
Group: vintageHO Message: 15609 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
Group: vintageHO Message: 15610 From: sottguy Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
Group: vintageHO Message: 15611 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
Group: vintageHO Message: 15612 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
Group: vintageHO Message: 15613 From: sottguy Date: 12/13/2010
Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
Group: vintageHO Message: 15614 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/14/2010
Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
Group: vintageHO Message: 15615 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 12/15/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15616 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/15/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15617 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 12/15/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15618 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 12/15/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15619 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/15/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15620 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 12/15/2010
Subject: New Layout
Group: vintageHO Message: 15621 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/15/2010
Subject: Re: New Layout [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15622 From: jim heckard Date: 12/16/2010
Subject: Red Ball item for Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15623 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 12/16/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15624 From: jim heckard Date: 12/16/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15625 From: jim heckard Date: 12/17/2010
Subject: Another addition
Group: vintageHO Message: 15626 From: Model RailRoad Date: 12/17/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15627 From: RalphB Date: 12/17/2010
Subject: Re: Another addition
Group: vintageHO Message: 15628 From: RalphB Date: 12/17/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15629 From: jim heckard Date: 12/17/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15630 From: John H Date: 12/17/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15631 From: jim heckard Date: 12/17/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15632 From: jim heckard Date: 12/17/2010
Subject: Comparison of RS-2's
Group: vintageHO Message: 15633 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/17/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15634 From: Model RailRoad Date: 12/18/2010
Subject: Re: Comparison of RS-2's
Group: vintageHO Message: 15635 From: jim heckard Date: 12/18/2010
Subject: Looking for information,
Group: vintageHO Message: 15636 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/18/2010
Subject: Re: Comparison of RS-2's
Group: vintageHO Message: 15637 From: jim heckard Date: 12/18/2010
Subject: Christmas Present
Group: vintageHO Message: 15638 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/18/2010
Subject: Ford cab over versions
Group: vintageHO Message: 15639 From: John Webster Date: 12/18/2010
Subject: Fw: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15640 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 12/19/2010
Subject: Walthers HH-660's
Group: vintageHO Message: 15641 From: jim heckard Date: 12/19/2010
Subject: Re: Walthers HH-660's
Group: vintageHO Message: 15642 From: jim heckard Date: 12/19/2010
Subject: Project for someone
Group: vintageHO Message: 15643 From: jim heckard Date: 12/19/2010
Subject: Forgot to mention
Group: vintageHO Message: 15644 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/19/2010
Subject: Re: Forgot to mention
Group: vintageHO Message: 15645 From: jim heckard Date: 12/19/2010
Subject: Re: Forgot to mention
Group: vintageHO Message: 15646 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/19/2010
Subject: Re: Forgot to mention
Group: vintageHO Message: 15647 From: Randolph Torres Date: 12/19/2010
Subject: I have moved and have way too many model railroad items, theyÂ’ll ne
Group: vintageHO Message: 15648 From: Nelson Date: 12/20/2010
Subject: Cab Backward?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15649 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/20/2010
Subject: Re: Cab Backward?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15650 From: jim heckard Date: 12/20/2010
Subject: Arden-IMP-Red Ball RS's
Group: vintageHO Message: 15651 From: Nelson Date: 12/20/2010
Subject: Re: Cab Backward?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15652 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/20/2010
Subject: Re: Cab Backward?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15653 From: jim heckard Date: 12/20/2010
Subject: Correction
Group: vintageHO Message: 15654 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/20/2010
Subject: Re: Correction
Group: vintageHO Message: 15655 From: jim heckard Date: 12/20/2010
Subject: Re: Correction
Group: vintageHO Message: 15656 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/20/2010
Subject: Red Ball brass (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15657 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/20/2010
Subject: Red Ball brass (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15658 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: Cab Backward?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15659 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball brass (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15660 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15661 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15662 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 15663 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 15664 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15665 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball brass (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15666 From: John Hagen Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15667 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15668 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: Walthers HO 660's
Group: vintageHO Message: 15669 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 15670 From: Nelson Date: 12/21/2010
Subject: Re: Cab Backward?
Group: vintageHO Message: 15671 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/22/2010
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO Message: 15672 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 12/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15673 From: cheez_eric Date: 12/23/2010
Subject: Grant Hobbycraft
Group: vintageHO Message: 15674 From: Jay Date: 12/23/2010
Subject: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15675 From: jim heckard Date: 12/23/2010
Subject: Grant Hobbycraft
Group: vintageHO Message: 15676 From: John Barlow Date: 12/23/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15677 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 12/23/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15678 From: cheez_eric Date: 12/23/2010
Subject: Re: Grant Hobbycraft
Group: vintageHO Message: 15679 From: Model RailRoad Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: White Tank Car was Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15680 From: jim heckard Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Grant Hobbycraft
Group: vintageHO Message: 15681 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Merry Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15682 From: Riverboy Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15683 From: gary pardue Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15684 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15685 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Grant Hobbycraft
Group: vintageHO Message: 15686 From: jim heckard Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Package delivered
Group: vintageHO Message: 15687 From: John H Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15688 From: John H Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15689 From: gary pardue Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15690 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas
Group: vintageHO Message: 15691 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15692 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Package delivered
Group: vintageHO Message: 15693 From: John H Date: 12/24/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15694 From: Riverboy Date: 12/25/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15695 From: John H Date: 12/25/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15696 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 12/25/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15697 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/25/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15698 From: nvrr49 Date: 12/26/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15699 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/26/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15700 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 12/26/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15702 From: John H Date: 12/26/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15703 From: Duane Porter Date: 12/26/2010
Subject: Re: Grant Hobbycraft
Group: vintageHO Message: 15704 From: RalphB Date: 12/27/2010
Subject: Dean Freytag - a legend passes
Group: vintageHO Message: 15705 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/27/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15706 From: internagy Date: 12/27/2010
Subject: Kemtron detail parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15707 From: John H Date: 12/27/2010
Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15708 From: Dale Smith Date: 12/27/2010
Subject: S. Soho & Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15709 From: cheez_eric Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: Grant Hobbycraft
Group: vintageHO Message: 15710 From: dennyanspach Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: Kemtron detail parts
Group: vintageHO Message: 15711 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Plastic coaling tower
Group: vintageHO Message: 15712 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
Group: vintageHO Message: 15713 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: S. Soho & Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15714 From: John Hagen Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Ohio Seamless Tube Car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15715 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: S. Soho & Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15716 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube Car [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO Message: 15717 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
Group: vintageHO Message: 15718 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
Group: vintageHO Message: 15719 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
Group: vintageHO Message: 15720 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
Group: vintageHO Message: 15721 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
Group: vintageHO Message: 15722 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/28/2010
Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
Group: vintageHO Message: 15723 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/29/2010
Subject: Re: S. Soho & Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15724 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/29/2010
Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
Group: vintageHO Message: 15725 From: jim heckard Date: 12/29/2010
Subject: Red Ball Alco Switcher
Group: vintageHO Message: 15726 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/29/2010
Subject: Re: S. Soho & Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15727 From: Dale Smith Date: 12/29/2010
Subject: Re: S. Soho & Co.
Group: vintageHO Message: 15728 From: John Hagen Date: 12/29/2010
Subject: OSTUCO Tube car
Group: vintageHO Message: 15729 From: RalphB Date: 12/30/2010
Subject: Re: Arbour Models (was S. Soho & Co.)
Group: vintageHO Message: 15730 From: Jim Waterman Date: 12/30/2010
Subject: Re: Dean Freytag - a legend passes
Group: vintageHO Message: 15731 From: jim heckard Date: 12/31/2010
Subject: Some Conover Progress
Group: vintageHO Message: 15732 From: Richard White Date: 12/31/2010
Subject: Re: Some Conover Progress [1 Attachment]



Group: vintageHO Message: 12838 From: Chris B Date: 1/1/2010
Subject: Crescent kit E unit on ebay
Attachments :
I would never know items like this were, or their importance in the vintage HO timeline; but for the knowledge shared in this group. 

Even my complete ignorance of early Varney steam details hasn't stopped me from enjoying the seminar of Varney experts.

Not bidding myself, but thought it might be of interest. 
Happy New Year!



3 Bids$10.50Dec-27 20:22



"This auction is for a Brass HO EMC 2800 A unit powered kit made by Crescent Model Company. This kit has not been started. It appears to be complete, but has not been inventoried. There are several brass stamped parts, screws, brass wiring, and screens in the bottom of the box. Also included is a Precision Model Products 6-wheel powered truck and dummy truck. This kit comes with instructions. The original box is falling apart. "

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 12839 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/1/2010
Subject: Re: Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
Sean,

That caboose is a beauty of a kit and model and as a self confessed "caboose fiend," wonder why I have never learned of it before. I have no Exacta paper, but will go over their ads as I go though the back issues of MR again. Will also check later today to see if the kit was ever reviewed.

W Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
>
> See attached photos!
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, December 31, 2009 7:46:15 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
>
>  
> Hi all!
> I hope everyone has a safe and happy new year
> I am looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
> If I can not add pics with this message, I will do it as soon as I can reply to it.
> I would really like so info on its history and or maker.
> The wood base is marked:
> "Exacta" Scale Models Inc.
> Patent Pending
> 4216 No. Vancouver Ave.
> Portland 11, Oregon
> Any takers?
> Thanks and Happy New Year!
> Sean
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12840 From: jim heckard Date: 1/1/2010
Subject: Re: Crescent kit E unit on ebay [1 Attachment]
Chris B,
 
    All in all not a bad kit to finish. It actually has 2 noses that have already been started. When bought new this kit had a instruction plan to show you how to bend,shape and solder these pieces to get the right profile. Based only on my one engine that came with boxes the nose pieces and instructions came in a separate box much like some Varney steam engine kits. While there are minor small detail parts missing (but nothing you could not make or replace) it would assemble into a nice vintage collectable engine or be modified to suit anyone's needs.
 
   If this was a "B" unit ( which I need for my collection ) I would be tempted to bid.
 
                                                          Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 11:10 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Crescent kit E unit on ebay [1 Attachment]

 

I would never know items like this were, or their importance in the vintage HO timeline; but for the knowledge shared in this group. 

Even my complete ignorance of early Varney steam details hasn't stopped me from enjoying the seminar of Varney experts.

Not bidding myself, but thought it might be of interest. 
Happy New Year!



3 Bids $10.50 Dec-27 20:22



"This auction is for a Brass HO EMC 2800 A unit powered kit made by Crescent Model Company. This kit has not been started. It appears to be complete, but has not been inventoried. There are several brass stamped parts, screws, brass wiring, and screens in the bottom of the box. Also included is a Precision Model Products 6-wheel powered truck and dummy truck. This kit comes with instructions. The original box is falling apart. "

Group: vintageHO Message: 12841 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/2/2010
Subject: Re: Looking for some info on a strange Copper caboose..
the_plainsman wrote:
>
>
> Sean,
>
> That caboose is a beauty of a kit and model and as a self confessed
> "caboose fiend," wonder why I have never learned of it before. I have
> no Exacta paper, but will go over their ads as I go though the back
> issues of MR again. Will also check later today to see if the kit was
> ever reviewed.
>
> W Jay W.
>

Hi Jay . hi Sean ,

I have checked all - well maybe I may have overlooked one or two issues - MR and MRC issues for Exacta/ Central Lines ads and reviews , beginning with 1945. Nowhere they mention any caboose .... streamlined cars, heavyweights, old time passenger cars, even E-units... no caboose.

I also look for Exacta items at ebay all year, no other caboose until now.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 12842 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/2/2010
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Are these ladders cast?
And not brass ladder stock?
Reason I ask, is sifting through parts, I find enough for the auto box of silver painted cast ladders.
Dave


> Dave, I think you can be pretty safe in using grab irons or ladders as
> they've been stated. Going back as for as 1950, Silver Streak/Pacific H0 used
> ladders for their reefers and Auto Box Cars -- and grab irons for their
> regular box cars. 1953 seemed to be the only year that I can find where they
> used grab irons on their auto cars and ladders on their box cars (and reefers).
> Checking various other years coming forward, still under Pacific H0, in
> 1961, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971, ladders were used for auto cars and reefers
> with grab irons being used for box cars. After Walthers took them over, they
> (Walthers) still continued with using ladders for their Silver Streak auto
> cars and reefers and grab irons for box cars; my early through late kits
> bear this out. Ray F.W. </HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12843 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/2/2010
Subject: Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
http://hoseeker.net/pacificho/pacifichogsmechanicalreeferpg1.jpg
http://hoseeker.net/pacificho/pacifichogsmechanicalreeferpg2.jpg

This kit indicates it come with trucks, but not couplers.
The photo is inconclusive as to type of truck.
In my stash of parts that came with this stuff, I have a set of (what looks like Bettendorf) roller bearing trucks.

Appropriate for the car?

Thanks.
Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12844 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 1/2/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
Hi Dave -
This kit came with 70-ton roller bearing sprung trucks, I think they are Hyatt, but good prototype pictures of the car and trucks are in "Classic Freight Cars"  - Vol 9
(Insulated Box Cars and Mechanical Reefers), pages 60-61.  Reed


-----Original Message-----
From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jan 2, 2010 7:20 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer

 
http://hoseeker. net/pacificho/ pacifichogsmecha nicalreeferpg1. jpg
http://hoseeker. net/pacificho/ pacifichogsmecha nicalreeferpg2. jpg

This kit indicates it come with trucks, but not couplers.
The photo is inconclusive as to type of truck.
In my stash of parts that came with this stuff, I have a set of (what looks like Bettendorf) roller bearing trucks.

Appropriate for the car?

Thanks.
Dave

Group: vintageHO Message: 12845 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/3/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
Okay......I don't have that book, but did some research, the ones I have look right....and fit....so they're on!


> Hi Dave -
> This kit came with 70-ton roller bearing sprung trucks, I think they are Hyatt, but good prototype pictures of the car and trucks are in "Classic Freight Cars" - Vol 9 (Insulated Box Cars and Mechanical Reefers), pages 60-61. Reed
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, Jan 2, 2010 7:20 pm
> Subject: [vintageHO] Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
>
>
>
>
>
> http://hoseeker.net/pacificho/pacifichogsmechanicalreeferpg1.jpg
> http://hoseeker.net/pacificho/pacifichogsmechanicalreeferpg2.jpg
>
> This kit indicates it come with trucks, but not couplers.
> The photo is inconclusive as to type of truck.
> In my stash of parts that came with this stuff, I have a set of (what looks like Bettendorf) roller bearing trucks.
>
> Appropriate for the car?
>
> Thanks.
> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12846 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/3/2010
Subject: Re: SilverStreak cars
Dave, Yes, the ladder stock is cast.  Ray
Group: vintageHO Message: 12847 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
Dave, Just thought I'd let you know that when Walthers was carrying these "Golden Spike Series" reefers under their own name as a Division of theirs, they included Roller Bearing style trucks.  While they previously carried these same cars under the Pacific H0 brand, they never went into a long description of them but only listed them, not giving much more information.  

"Bettendorf" trucks do not look like "Roller Bearing" trucks though, as any Bettendorf trucks I've ever seen in modeling are the 50-Ton friction bearing type having a square "cap" on the frame at the ends of the axles, representing the prototype's cover lid to gain access to the lubricant packing.  There were conversions by the prototype railroads, of Bettendorf trucks to include roller bearings in them, but I don't recall seeing them offered in modeling.

"Roller Bearing" trucks have much heavier frames (noteably with a straight upper beam -- not arch-shaped), as they're rated usually at 100-Ton (most often offered in modeling), or sometimes at 70-Ton and have a round cap at the ends of the axles.  Ray F.W.   

Group: vintageHO Message: 12848 From: RalphB Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific H0 50 foot mechanical reefer
If you want to learn a little bit about freight car trucks, go here:
http://www.trains.com/mrr/objects/pdf/mr_pi_5-06_freightcartrucks.pdf

A couple of things I'll point out in this message. First, there's really no such thing as a "Bettendorf" truck; Bettendorf was simply the first foundry to produce integral cast sideframes. Most model trucks are simply an AAR design produced by several manufacturers.

Second, most roller bearing trucks for model cars, at least in HO, are 100-ton designs with 33-inch wheelsets, something that you'll never see on the prototype. Trucks are frequently referred to by the nominal net weight capacity of the car, that is, 50-ton trucks are used under cars with a capacity of approximately 100,000 to 110,000 pounds. The relationships are:
50-ton 33-inch wheels 5'6" wheelbase 5-1/2x10 bearing
70-ton 33-inch wheels 5'8" wheelbase 6x11 bearing
100-ton 36-inch wheels 5'10" wheelbase 6-1/2x12 bearing
125-ton 38-inch wheels 6' wheelbase 7x12 bearing

The allowable maximum gross weight for a pair of 2-axle trucks for each bearing size is:
5-1/2x10 177,000 pounds
6x11 220,000 "
6-1/2x12 286,000 " (it used to be 263,000 pounds)
7x12 315,000 "

Bowser produces correct 70-ton roller bearing trucks, available both with and without wheels. One of these days I'm going to order a hundred pair of sideframes and change out all those 100-ton sideframes under my 70-ton cars; I already put 36" wheelsets under my 100-ton cars.

Oh, yeah; I have the Walthers-issued Silver Streak reefer and mine is equipped with incorrect 50-ton roller bearing trucks, but I think they're replacements because there's another set of wheels without sideframes in the box (something I did before I knew better).

Ralph B

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
> Dave, Just thought I'd let you know that when Walthers was carrying these
> "Golden Spike Series" reefers under their own name as a Division of theirs,
> they included Roller Bearing style trucks. While they previously carried
> these same cars under the Pacific H0 brand, they never went into a long
> description of them but only listed them, not giving much more information.
>
> "Bettendorf" trucks do not look like "Roller Bearing" trucks though, as any
> Bettendorf trucks I've ever seen in modeling are the 50-Ton friction
> bearing type having a square "cap" on the frame at the ends of the axles,
> representing the prototype's cover lid to gain access to the lubricant packing.
> There were conversions by the prototype railroads, of Bettendorf trucks to
> include roller bearings in them, but I don't recall seeing them offered in
> modeling.
>
> "Roller Bearing" trucks have much heavier frames (noteably with a straight
> upper beam -- not arch-shaped), as they're rated usually at 100-Ton (most
> often offered in modeling), or sometimes at 70-Ton and have a round cap at the
> ends of the axles. Ray F.W.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12849 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific HO 50 foot mech. reefer
Hi Ray F.W., Dave, All,

Excellent styrene sideframe & bolster kits for the roller bearing converted friction bearing trucks, AKA "Bettendorf" trucks, are manufactured by Eastern Car Works, kit # 9056. An illustration of them may be seen on Merle Rices' Model RR Warehouse page here:
http://mrrwarehouse.com/images/EASTERN/ecwtrks1.jpg

They assemble easily and you can add the wheelsets of your choice. My home road, Erie Lackawanna, sometimes skipped ordering new cars in the 1960's with roller bearings, then applied the conversions later. One example were their early ACF cylindrical covered hoppers which came from ACF with 100 ton, friction bearing trucks, a rarity in themselves (also available from Eastern CW). Ironically, the fine Atlas models of the EL cars came with great rolling, but roller bearing sideframes!

I like those Pacific HO Golden Spike series of 50' mechanical reefers, though they do take a while to assemble. The only alteration I have made is to substitute a Kadee "see-through" roof walk running board. I have several more of the Walther's version waiting to be done, more EL's and a PC and Monnon each. The Walther's versions were packed l/t, l/c.

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
> Dave, Just thought I'd let you know that when Walthers was carrying these
> "Golden Spike Series" reefers under their own name as a Division of theirs,
> they included Roller Bearing style trucks. While they previously carried
> these same cars under the Pacific H0 brand, they never went into a long
> description of them but only listed them, not giving much more information.
>
> "Bettendorf" trucks do not look like "Roller Bearing" trucks though, as any
> Bettendorf trucks I've ever seen in modeling are the 50-Ton friction
> bearing type having a square "cap" on the frame at the ends of the axles,
> representing the prototype's cover lid to gain access to the lubricant packing.
> There were conversions by the prototype railroads, of Bettendorf trucks to
> include roller bearings in them, but I don't recall seeing them offered in
> modeling.
>
> "Roller Bearing" trucks have much heavier frames (noteably with a straight
> upper beam -- not arch-shaped), as they're rated usually at 100-Ton (most
> often offered in modeling), or sometimes at 70-Ton and have a round cap at the
> ends of the axles. Ray F.W.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12850 From: RalphB Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: Pacific HO 50 foot mech. reefer
Back in the '70s and '80s I used to see a lot of CN boxcars assigned to newsprint service. The cars were in the CN 400001-401957, CVC 402000-402999, and DWC 403000-403749 series. I remember seeing them with solid-bearing trucks initially, but they were all converted to roller bearings when solid (a.k.a. friction) bearings were outlawed for interchange.

As far as historical dates in railroading, here's a good web site:
http://www.hosam.com/grd/dates.html It hasn't been updated since the mid-90s, but it goes all the way back to 1804. It's great for things like finding out that Allied full-cushion trucks (what was under WW II troop sleepers) were outlawed in 1955.

Ralph B

--- In W Jay W., "the_plainsman" wrote:
> My home road, Erie Lackawanna, sometimes skipped ordering new cars in the 1960's with roller bearings, then applied the conversions later. One example were their early ACF cylindrical covered hoppers which came from ACF with 100 ton, friction bearing trucks, a rarity in themselves (also available from Eastern CW).
Group: vintageHO Message: 12851 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Protoype color scheme question
I have an early Roundhouse all-cast boxcar, Great Northern, Billy Goat yellow sides.

The roof and ends are Boxcar Red, chassis is black.
For some reason, the doors are unpainted.

Are the doors body-side color (yellow) or roof/end color (boxcar red)?

Easier to ask first that to do it twice.

Thanks!

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12852 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: O/T, CPU usage
Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.

No place else.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12853 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???

On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:

> Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
> SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
>
> No place else.
>
> Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12854 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
I looked and I'm using about 3-percent of cpu going through my email
program, and the same while also running the group's Yahoo page in my
browser.

On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:55 PM, Mike Bauers wrote:

> What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???
>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
>
>> Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
>> SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
>>
>> No place else.
>>
>> Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12855 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
XP Pro, IE 6, never had this before.
When I simply open this page, it goes to 98%.

Dave

> What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???
>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
>
> > Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
> > SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
> >
> > No place else.
> >
> > Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12856 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
You not running anything too old.

The system is running away on you.

I'll speak in general terms. If this was happening to me, I'd google
for a free internet monitor that will detail is going in and out of
the system while connected to the web.

This is one I would try..... Free for home use......

http://www.netveda.com/consumer/safetynet.htm

I know I won't recognize some of the programs or sites that will be in
a monitor's report. I would make note of which I suspect and then
Google to find what they are.

Found through Shellcity.net ........ a fantastic app/utility search
site I've used for a great many years !!!

I'd also get the free malware hunter/killers and run them.

Two I've used for a long time are

http://www.lavasoft.com/products/ad_aware.php [get the free version]

also Spybot-search/destroy.....

http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html

Run first one, then the other....... It may find a spy program in your
computer.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 4, 2010, at 9:28 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:

>
>
> XP Pro, IE 6, never had this before.
> When I simply open this page, it goes to 98%.
>
> Dave
>
>> What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
>>
>>> Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
>>> SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
>>>
>>> No place else.
>>>
>>> Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12857 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
I'm running the same combination on a Pentium 4 machine. With IE open and
the group home page open, if I don't scroll around CPU usage is 0%.
Scrolling around the page it averages about 15%, and jumps as high as
40-60%, but only for a second, and drops back to zero as soon as I stop
scrolling.

You've got something else running in background, spyware or a worm.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:28 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: O/T, CPU usage


>
>
> XP Pro, IE 6, never had this before.
> When I simply open this page, it goes to 98%.
>
> Dave
>
>> What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
>>
>> > Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
>> > SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
>> >
>> > No place else.
>> >
>> > Dave
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12858 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
I run SpyBot regularly.
Have AVAST running, and Super Anti-Spyware.
Lavasoft does not play nice on this old box (BTDT).
It is ONLY yahoo groups doing it.
No other page does it.
I cleared temp files, still doing it.
I'll try the netveda and see.
Odd.


> You not running anything too old.
>
> The system is running away on you.
>
> I'll speak in general terms. If this was happening to me, I'd google
> for a free internet monitor that will detail is going in and out of
> the system while connected to the web.
>
> This is one I would try..... Free for home use......
>
> http://www.netveda.com/consumer/safetynet.htm
>
> I know I won't recognize some of the programs or sites that will be in
> a monitor's report. I would make note of which I suspect and then
> Google to find what they are.
>
> Found through Shellcity.net ........ a fantastic app/utility search
> site I've used for a great many years !!!
>
> I'd also get the free malware hunter/killers and run them.
>
> Two I've used for a long time are
>
> http://www.lavasoft.com/products/ad_aware.php [get the free version]
>
> also Spybot-search/destroy.....
>
> http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html
>
> Run first one, then the other....... It may find a spy program in your
> computer.
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi
>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 9:28 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > XP Pro, IE 6, never had this before.
> > When I simply open this page, it goes to 98%.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >> What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???
> >>
> >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
> >>
> >>> Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
> >>> SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
> >>>
> >>> No place else.
> >>>
> >>> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12859 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
CWShredder came up clean.
HiJackThis came up clean.
SpyBot is running.
FSecure Blacklight Beta Rootkit Revealer came up clean.
Yet, process explorer shows yahoo drawing (no scrolling) 24-48% right now.
Odd.

Anybody know on door color on the GN box?

Dave
>
> I'm running the same combination on a Pentium 4 machine. With IE open and
> the group home page open, if I don't scroll around CPU usage is 0%.
> Scrolling around the page it averages about 15%, and jumps as high as
> 40-60%, but only for a second, and drops back to zero as soon as I stop
> scrolling.
>
> You've got something else running in background, spyware or a worm.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:28 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: O/T, CPU usage
>
>
> >
> >
> > XP Pro, IE 6, never had this before.
> > When I simply open this page, it goes to 98%.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >> What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???
> >>
> >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
> >>
> >> > Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
> >> > SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
> >> >
> >> > No place else.
> >> >
> >> > Dave
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12860 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Might some malware have set IE to run something in the background via
a script???

Is there away to reset IE to a default config ???

It may be preset to go somewhere on-line and work through commands
waiting there.

Can you filter the firewall to only allow Yahoo ? Are there traces of
other sites working at the same time???

This was my thinking for using a network-monitor program.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:03 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:

> CWShredder came up clean.
> HiJackThis came up clean.
> SpyBot is running.
> FSecure Blacklight Beta Rootkit Revealer came up clean.
> Yet, process explorer shows yahoo drawing (no scrolling) 24-48%
> right now.
> Odd.
>
> Anybody know on door color on the GN box?
>
> Dave
>>
>> I'm running the same combination on a Pentium 4 machine. With IE
>> open and
>> the group home page open, if I don't scroll around CPU usage is 0%.
>> Scrolling around the page it averages about 15%, and jumps as high as
>> 40-60%, but only for a second, and drops back to zero as soon as I
>> stop
>> scrolling.
>>
>> You've got something else running in background, spyware or a worm.
>>
>> Don
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "trainsnwrcs"
>>>
>>>
>>> XP Pro, IE 6, never had this before.
>>> When I simply open this page, it goes to 98%.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>> What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
>>>>> SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> No place else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12861 From: Wobbly913 Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
If you haven't done it already you might try pressing ctrl alt del to bring up the task manager. Click "task manager" to look at appllications running to see if something else besides Internet explorer is running. If you find nothing there look at "processes" running. Whatever else is running may show up there. If you see something unfamiliar  you can stop that process.  If it turns out to be what you are looking for you should know fairly quickly. If you stop something you should not have stopped simply reboot and start over.
 
That has actually worked for me when my computer had a worm once.
 
Wobbly913
--- On Mon, 1/4/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: O/T, CPU usage
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 9:03 PM

CWShredder came up clean.
HiJackThis came up clean.
SpyBot is running.
FSecure Blacklight Beta Rootkit Revealer came up clean.
Yet, process explorer shows yahoo drawing (no scrolling) 24-48% right now.
Odd.

Anybody know on door color on the GN box?

Dave
>
> I'm running the same combination  on a Pentium 4 machine.  With IE open and
> the group home page open, if I don't scroll around CPU usage is 0%.
> Scrolling around the page it averages about 15%, and jumps as high as
> 40-60%, but only for a second, and drops back to zero as soon as I stop
> scrolling.
>
> You've got something else running in background, spyware or a worm.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
>
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 12862 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
First thing I did.
Then, I opened "Process Explorer", which is like a really big Task Manager, you can follow all the lines.

I did some research on-line, got this:
"I checked my spybot results in detail and found all the irremovable problems were by Yahoo. I had an account with it and I can't live without it."

So, maybe.


> If you haven't done it already you might try pressing ctrl alt del to bring up the task manager. Click "task manager" to look at appllications running to see if something else besides Internet explorer is running. If you find nothing there look at "processes" running. Whatever else is running may show up there. If you see something unfamiliar  you can stop that process.  If it turns out to be what you are looking for you should know fairly quickly. If you stop something you should not have stopped simply reboot and start over.
>  
> That has actually worked for me when my computer had a worm once.
>  
> Wobbly913
> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: O/T, CPU usage
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 9:03 PM
>
>
> CWShredder came up clean.
> HiJackThis came up clean.
> SpyBot is running.
> FSecure Blacklight Beta Rootkit Revealer came up clean.
> Yet, process explorer shows yahoo drawing (no scrolling) 24-48% right now.
> Odd.
>
> Anybody know on door color on the GN box?
>
> Dave
> >
> > I'm running the same combination  on a Pentium 4 machine.  With IE open and
> > the group home page open, if I don't scroll around CPU usage is 0%.
> > Scrolling around the page it averages about 15%, and jumps as high as
> > 40-60%, but only for a second, and drops back to zero as soon as I stop
> > scrolling.
> >
> > You've got something else running in background, spyware or a worm.
> >
> > Don
> >
> > Don Dellmann
> > don.dellmann@
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> > Owner
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
> >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12863 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/4/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
that's the way they were made. Is it the "plywood side" version? the seams
in the sides would have double rows of "rivets"--probably actually were
bolts--and I think the panel joints had what looks like channels. a regular
boxcar had lapped seams in the side sheets, with single rows of rivets. gj
----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:16 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Protoype color scheme question


>I have an early Roundhouse all-cast boxcar, Great Northern, Billy Goat
>yellow sides.
>
> The roof and ends are Boxcar Red, chassis is black.
> For some reason, the doors are unpainted.
>
> Are the doors body-side color (yellow) or roof/end color (boxcar red)?
>
> Easier to ask first that to do it twice.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10
08:24:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 12864 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Dave,  Sounds like you have an MDC # 602 GN "Plywood Panel" type box car (no doubt numbered 44070).  The roof and ends should not be Box Car Red.  The doors should be Reefer Yellow to match the sides, and the roof and ends (and underframe) are Black -- as per Roundhouse/MDC instructions.  Ray F.W.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12865 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Yeah, late last night I figured out it was a 602, as opposed to an orange 601.

I was assembled in this pile of stuff, brown/red roof and ends, black chassis, yellow sides, and "natural" doors.

Maybe the original assembler didn't have yellow paint?

Dave


> Dave, Sounds like you have an MDC # 602 GN "Plywood Panel" type box car
> (no doubt numbered 44070). The roof and ends should not be Box Car Red. The
> doors should be Reefer Yellow to match the sides, and the roof and ends (and
> underframe) are Black -- as per Roundhouse/MDC instructions. Ray F.W.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12866 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Yeah, it's a 602.
Funny someone would go to the trouble of painting all but the doors.
Dave



> that's the way they were made. Is it the "plywood side" version? the seams
> in the sides would have double rows of "rivets"--probably actually were
> bolts--and I think the panel joints had what looks like channels. a regular
> boxcar had lapped seams in the side sheets, with single rows of rivets. gj
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 6:16 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Protoype color scheme question
>
>
> >I have an early Roundhouse all-cast boxcar, Great Northern, Billy Goat
> >yellow sides.
> >
> > The roof and ends are Boxcar Red, chassis is black.
> > For some reason, the doors are unpainted.
> >
> > Are the doors body-side color (yellow) or roof/end color (boxcar red)?
> >
> > Easier to ask first that to do it twice.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.124/2599 - Release Date: 01/04/10
> 08:24:00
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12867 From: Larry Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Yaheck won't admit it, but some of the ads that are linked are causing problems as they try to download too much into their ads. It's been an excellerating problem and YahKnowWho doesn't want to lose advertisers so they put up with it. Some of these advertisers are attempting to download huge background files and compressed animations that go beyond what the cpu's can handle. Notice how long it takes for the banner ads at the top of Yahoozle page takes to open up... if takes more than a few second, the advertiser is dumping a large file into your temporary folder to do the devil knows what.
 
Ever wonder why their servers lock up and go down such much? Wonder no more.
 
Larry Miller III 

--- On Mon, 1/4/10, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:

From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] O/T, CPU usage
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 9:06 PM

I looked and I'm using about 3-percent of cpu going through my email 
program, and the same while also running the group's Yahoo page in my 
browser.

On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:55 PM, Mike Bauers wrote:

> What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???
>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
>
>> Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
>> SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
>>
>> No place else.
>>
>> Dave


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

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Group: vintageHO Message: 12868 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
Mike B, and Larry M., Thanks for the information. I thought it was just my problem here that developed during the past week as I linked a third group on the E-L to my mailbox, not a yahoo group. But knowing this additional information now, as long as I stay away from my Yahoo mailbox page, all is OK, so I am visiting our group page and reading and responding from there with no problem. Whew! I might link that non Yahoo group to a g-mail page instead. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Larry <mrncartoon@...> wrote:
>
>
> Yaheck won't admit it, but some of the ads that are linked are causing problems as they try to download too much into their ads. It's been an excellerating problem and YahKnowWho doesn't want to lose advertisers so they put up with it. Some of these advertisers are attempting to download huge background files and compressed animations that go beyond what the cpu's can handle. Notice how long it takes for the banner ads at the top of Yahoozle page takes to open up... if takes more than a few second, the advertiser is dumping a large file into your temporary folder to do the devil knows what.
>  
> Ever wonder why their servers lock up and go down such much? Wonder no more.
>  
> Larry Miller III 
>
> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] O/T, CPU usage
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 9:06 PM
>
>
> I looked and I'm using about 3-percent of cpu going through my email 
> program, and the same while also running the group's Yahoo page in my 
> browser.
>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:55 PM, Mike Bauers wrote:
>
> > What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???
> >
> > On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
> >
> >> Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
> >> SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
> >>
> >> No place else.
> >>
> >> Dave
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12869 From: Donald D Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Yours truly is now the owner of the eBay car referenced below. It does appear to be Ulrich, the sides are wood with a one piece cast brace assembly. The lettering and number do NOT match the later "Cars of the Roaring 20's" model, the end detail and the quality of the lettering place it nuch more like a 1950's vintage, I'd say it's the L08 car, but the particular road name and number do not appear in the listing in the files section. FWIW this car is SL&SF 126874. The roaring 20's car is SL&SF 126887.

I should get a photo up later tonight or tomorrow.

Don

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
>
>
> Dave, The car being offered on eBay as item 190359672287, which you have a
> link to, is not a Silver Streak as advertised, but instead an Ulrich car.
> The wood sides, as seen through the open doorway on the inside of the
> opposite side is only one feature that sets it apart from MDC, besides the
> lettering and number. Yes, MDC did offer an StL&SW car too (#126878). This Ulrich
> Frisco O/B Boxcar was the second kit (of three) of their "Cars of the
> Roaring Twenties" Series (1st kit of this Series was an ART Reefer and the 3rd
> kit was an Enterprise General Service Gondola). Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12870 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: O/T, CPU usage
If the advertisements are the problem (And that does sound about right), get the firefox web browser. Then get the free 'Adblock Plus' addon, and subscribe to the USA 'Easylist' filter.

Voila, ads gone! Works on nearly any page - blocks the coding that shows the ads, making the web run faster and safer.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Tue, 1/5/10, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: O/T, CPU usage
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 1:13 PM

 

Mike B, and Larry M., Thanks for the information. I thought it was just my problem here that developed during the past week as I linked a third group on the E-L to my mailbox, not a yahoo group. But knowing this additional information now, as long as I stay away from my Yahoo mailbox page, all is OK, so I am visiting our group page and reading and responding from there with no problem. Whew! I might link that non Yahoo group to a g-mail page instead. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Larry <mrncartoon@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> Yaheck won't admit it, but some of the ads that are linked are causing problems as they try to download too much into their ads. It's been an excellerating problem and YahKnowWho doesn't want to lose advertisers so they put up with it. Some of these advertisers are attempting to download huge background files and compressed animations that go beyond what the cpu's can handle. Notice how long it takes for the banner ads at the top of Yahoozle page takes to open up... if takes more than a few second, the advertiser is dumping a large file into your temporary folder to do the devil knows what.
>  
> Ever wonder why their servers lock up and go down such much? Wonder no more.
>  
> Larry Miller III 
>
> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] O/T, CPU usage
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 9:06 PM
>
>
> I looked and I'm using about 3-percent of cpu going through my email 
> program, and the same while also running the group's Yahoo page in my 
> browser.
>
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:55 PM, Mike Bauers wrote:
>
> > What OS, and what program are you using for Yahoo ???
> >
> > On Jan 4, 2010, at 8:34 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:
> >
> >> Anybody else have yahoo groups using over 50% of CPU?
> >> SLOW, and I opened Process Explorer, and that's what it is.
> >>
> >> No place else.
> >>
> >> Dave
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 12871 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Ray,

Funny how the prototype is - I have an old O Scale 2-rail boxcar that is converted to 3-rail. It is a plywood side GN boxcar, and it has boxcar red roof, ends and doors, that look painted by the modeler. Funny how two different modelers came up with the same artistic license on the same design of car.

Mine looks good the way it is, though, so I do not plan to change it. However, if I ever have a reason to repaint the doors, roof, or ends, now I know what is proper.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Tue, 1/5/10, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:

From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Protoype color scheme question
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 6:21 AM

 

Dave,  Sounds like you have an MDC # 602 GN "Plywood Panel" type box car (no doubt numbered 44070).  The roof and ends should not be Box Car Red.  The doors should be Reefer Yellow to match the sides, and the roof and ends (and underframe) are Black -- as per Roundhouse/MDC instructions.  Ray F.W.

Group: vintageHO Message: 12872 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
While going through my dialy Ebay routine, I happened along this thing,
http://cgi.ebay.com/Custom-Built-Operating-Hopper-Car-Dumper_W0QQitemZ170426875343QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item27ae3bbdcf

Anybody have any info on it, be interesting to here as I've never seen one of these before.

Larry L Doub
Davenport Iowa
Group: vintageHO Message: 12873 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/5/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Steve, I can't vouch for MDC/Roundhouse's color recommendations as being
true to prototype. I mentioned what colors the H0 kit manufacturer stated
for this GN car in question, but not necessarily what the prototype could have
used. It's probable that the prototype Great Northern Railway may well
have used black on the roof and ends of these plywood panel cars -- and may
also have used red as well, which wouldn't be incorrect then if the modeler
wanted only to duplicate the prototype. Since Dave appears to want to adhere
to original model manufacturers' practices/specifications -- as per his
previous posts, to keep the models authentic as produced -- I offered only what
MDC/Roundhouse stated to be used.

As I recall, there have been discussions in the past on what color is
proper (or allowable) on the roofs and ends of the metal orange GN cars offered
by Athearn and Modelmaster. While I don't recall the exact outcome as to
what color (or colors) were correct, I do recall other colors, like Box Car
Red, were being said to be used by some modelers -- possibly even being correct
to prototype in some cases (depending on car number?) although I can't
verify if it is. For the B-601 GN (Orange) Plywood Panel box car, again,
MDC/Roundhouse specifies Black for the roof and ends of this car too. MDC may
have researched the specific car numbers they produced for their GN cars,
possibly finding that black was used on these cars, but that's only a guess. Ray
F.W. </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12874 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
Way back then, MDC/Roundhouse had their own line of paints--I used them a
lot--characteristics were similar to 4-10-M--bottles were similar--who
knows--could have been the same. gj

----- Original Message -----
From: <erieberk@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Protoype color scheme question


>
>
> Steve, I can't vouch for MDC/Roundhouse's color recommendations as being
> true to prototype. I mentioned what colors the H0 kit manufacturer stated
> for this GN car in question, but not necessarily what the prototype could
> have
> used. It's probable that the prototype Great Northern Railway may well
> have used black on the roof and ends of these plywood panel cars -- and
> may
> also have used red as well, which wouldn't be incorrect then if the
> modeler
> wanted only to duplicate the prototype. Since Dave appears to want to
> adhere
> to original model manufacturers' practices/specifications -- as per his
> previous posts, to keep the models authentic as produced -- I offered only
> what
> MDC/Roundhouse stated to be used.
>
> As I recall, there have been discussions in the past on what color is
> proper (or allowable) on the roofs and ends of the metal orange GN cars
> offered
> by Athearn and Modelmaster. While I don't recall the exact outcome as to
> what color (or colors) were correct, I do recall other colors, like Box
> Car
> Red, were being said to be used by some modelers -- possibly even being
> correct
> to prototype in some cases (depending on car number?) although I can't
> verify if it is. For the B-601 GN (Orange) Plywood Panel box car, again,
> MDC/Roundhouse specifies Black for the roof and ends of this car too. MDC
> may
> have researched the specific car numbers they produced for their GN cars,
> possibly finding that black was used on these cars, but that's only a
> guess. Ray
> F.W. </HTML>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.126/2602 - Release Date: 01/05/10
19:35:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 12875 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
I'm not sure in what context the Sellers means by, "Custom-Built."
especially when the description reads further that he's not sure of the
"manufacturer." Quite often, "custom-built" means just that -- built (from scratch) as
the only existing item by the hobbyist, whereby there may not have been a
commercial manufacturer being involved. You may want to ask more questions in
this case. I don't recall ever seeing a model like this (with this
appearance) being produced, although that's not to say there wasn't one.

Ulrich produced an operating hopper car dumper though, but I don't recall
it as even being similar to this eBay offering. Come to think of it, I don't
believe I mentioned it in the Ulrich spread sheet now in the files, even
though I may have one (or two) buried somewhere in my collection. As for the
one being offered, it does look like it could be interesting to operate,
whether or not it was actually "produced." Ray F.W. </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12876 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
Thanks for the input,
I'm not interested in this piece,
just found it to be quite intersting to say the least.
But I found that misleading as well where it stats custom build kit.
Who knows..... it is Ebay, and lord knows what a guy can find in there at times.

Larry L Doub
Davenport Iowa

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm not sure in what context the Sellers means by, "Custom-Built."
> especially when the description reads further that he's not sure of the
> "manufacturer." Quite often, "custom-built" means just that -- built (from scratch) as
> the only existing item by the hobbyist, whereby there may not have been a
> commercial manufacturer being involved. You may want to ask more questions in
> this case. I don't recall ever seeing a model like this (with this
> appearance) being produced, although that's not to say there wasn't one.
>
> Ulrich produced an operating hopper car dumper though, but I don't recall
> it as even being similar to this eBay offering. Come to think of it, I don't
> believe I mentioned it in the Ulrich spread sheet now in the files, even
> though I may have one (or two) buried somewhere in my collection. As for the
> one being offered, it does look like it could be interesting to operate,
> whether or not it was actually "produced." Ray F.W. </HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12877 From: jay matz Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
Larry
Back in the 60s there was a book of plans this was one of them. Build an operating coal dumper, to dump coal into a barge. It was one of the Kalmbach books.
Jay
 
On Wed, 1/6/10, Mr Larry L. Doub <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:

From: Mr Larry L. Doub <larry_l_doub@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 6, 2010, 1:10 AM

 
While going through my dialy Ebay routine, I happened along this thing,
http://cgi.ebay. com/Custom- Built-Operating- Hopper-Car- Dumper_W0QQitemZ 170426875343QQcm dZViewItemQQptZM odel_RR_Trains? hash=item27ae3bb dcf

Anybody have any info on it, be interesting to here as I've never seen one of these before.

Larry L Doub
Davenport Iowa


Group: vintageHO Message: 12878 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
It does remind me of some article I read ages ago about how to build
one of these.

I remember something very similar as a detailed construction article
in a Kalmbach softcover book I bought before 1970.

Best to ya'
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee Wi, USA


On Jan 6, 2010, at 2:26 AM, Mr Larry L. Doub wrote:

> Thanks for the input,
> I'm not interested in this piece,
> just found it to be quite intersting to say the least.
> But I found that misleading as well where it stats custom build kit.
> Who knows..... it is Ebay, and lord knows what a guy can find in
> there at times.
>
> Larry L Doub
> Davenport Iowa
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure in what context the Sellers means by, "Custom-Built."
>> especially when the description reads further that he's not sure
>> of the
>> "manufacturer." Quite often, "custom-built" means just that --
>> built (from scratch) as
>> the only existing item by the hobbyist, whereby there may not have
>> been a
>> commercial manufacturer being involved. You may want to ask more
>> questions in
>> this case. I don't recall ever seeing a model like this (with this
>> appearance) being produced, although that's not to say there
>> wasn't one.
>>
>> Ulrich produced an operating hopper car dumper though, but I don't
>> recall
>> it as even being similar to this eBay offering. Come to think of
>> it, I don't
>> believe I mentioned it in the Ulrich spread sheet now in the
>> files, even
>> though I may have one (or two) buried somewhere in my collection.
>> As for the
>> one being offered, it does look like it could be interesting to
>> operate,
>> whether or not it was actually "produced." Ray F.W. </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12879 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, rotary dumper
Larry D., All,

Besides the MR plans, in the fifties or sixties, there was a kit by "Robbi-Models" or "Mobi-Models" something like that, for a rotary car dumper. It included parts and templates for the ramp and kick-back track as well, that when comnnstructed measure 60" I believe that ad said. They show up on eBay occasionally.

I've seen that "custom built" term used often by those outside our modeling mainstream to describe what we would call an assembled kit. To further muddy the waters, sometimes even shops would advertise that they "custom-build" kits for unskilled buyers as well.

Sometimes these poor eBay descriptions can hide some good finds, too!

W Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the input,
> I'm not interested in this piece,
> just found it to be quite intersting to say the least.
> But I found that misleading as well where it stats custom build kit.
> Who knows..... it is Ebay, and lord knows what a guy can find in there at times.
>
> Larry L Doub
> Davenport Iowa
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure in what context the Sellers means by, "Custom-Built."
> > especially when the description reads further that he's not sure of the
> > "manufacturer." Quite often, "custom-built" means just that -- built (from scratch) as
> > the only existing item by the hobbyist, whereby there may not have been a
> > commercial manufacturer being involved. You may want to ask more questions in
> > this case. I don't recall ever seeing a model like this (with this
> > appearance) being produced, although that's not to say there wasn't one.
> >
> > Ulrich produced an operating hopper car dumper though, but I don't recall
> > it as even being similar to this eBay offering. Come to think of it, I don't
> > believe I mentioned it in the Ulrich spread sheet now in the files, even
> > though I may have one (or two) buried somewhere in my collection. As for the
> > one being offered, it does look like it could be interesting to operate,
> > whether or not it was actually "produced." Ray F.W. </HTML>
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12880 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, rotary dumper
I would consider "custom built" to be synonymous with "professionally
built". I have engaged in such work--one loco I rebuilt from a brass model
recently sold on eBay. from the estate of the fellow I built it for. If an
item is "custom built" or "pro built" the lister should provide the name of
the builder if at all possible. gj

----- Original Message -----
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:17 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Interesting EBay Listing, rotary dumper


> Larry D., All,
>
> Besides the MR plans, in the fifties or sixties, there was a kit by
> "Robbi-Models" or "Mobi-Models" something like that, for a rotary car
> dumper. It included parts and templates for the ramp and kick-back track
> as well, that when comnnstructed measure 60" I believe that ad said. They
> show up on eBay occasionally.
>
> I've seen that "custom built" term used often by those outside our
> modeling mainstream to describe what we would call an assembled kit. To
> further muddy the waters, sometimes even shops would advertise that they
> "custom-build" kits for unskilled buyers as well.
>
> Sometimes these poor eBay descriptions can hide some good finds, too!
>
> W Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the input,
>> I'm not interested in this piece,
>> just found it to be quite intersting to say the least.
>> But I found that misleading as well where it stats custom build kit.
>> Who knows..... it is Ebay, and lord knows what a guy can find in there at
>> times.
>>
>> Larry L Doub
>> Davenport Iowa
>>
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not sure in what context the Sellers means by, "Custom-Built."
>> > especially when the description reads further that he's not sure of the
>> > "manufacturer." Quite often, "custom-built" means just that -- built
>> > (from scratch) as
>> > the only existing item by the hobbyist, whereby there may not have been
>> > a
>> > commercial manufacturer being involved. You may want to ask more
>> > questions in
>> > this case. I don't recall ever seeing a model like this (with this
>> > appearance) being produced, although that's not to say there wasn't
>> > one.
>> >
>> > Ulrich produced an operating hopper car dumper though, but I don't
>> > recall
>> > it as even being similar to this eBay offering. Come to think of it, I
>> > don't
>> > believe I mentioned it in the Ulrich spread sheet now in the files,
>> > even
>> > though I may have one (or two) buried somewhere in my collection. As
>> > for the
>> > one being offered, it does look like it could be interesting to
>> > operate,
>> > whether or not it was actually "produced." Ray F.W. </HTML>
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.126/2602 - Release Date: 01/05/10
19:35:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 12881 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, rotary dumper
I recall a car dumper kit by UMPCo back in the fifties--I built some of
their car kits for chlorine and helium cars. gj

----- Original Message -----
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:17 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Interesting EBay Listing, rotary dumper


> Larry D., All,
>
> Besides the MR plans, in the fifties or sixties, there was a kit by
> "Robbi-Models" or "Mobi-Models" something like that, for a rotary car
> dumper. It included parts and templates for the ramp and kick-back track
> as well, that when comnnstructed measure 60" I believe that ad said. They
> show up on eBay occasionally.
>
> I've seen that "custom built" term used often by those outside our
> modeling mainstream to describe what we would call an assembled kit. To
> further muddy the waters, sometimes even shops would advertise that they
> "custom-build" kits for unskilled buyers as well.
>
> Sometimes these poor eBay descriptions can hide some good finds, too!
>
> W Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the input,
>> I'm not interested in this piece,
>> just found it to be quite intersting to say the least.
>> But I found that misleading as well where it stats custom build kit.
>> Who knows..... it is Ebay, and lord knows what a guy can find in there at
>> times.
>>
>> Larry L Doub
>> Davenport Iowa
>>
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not sure in what context the Sellers means by, "Custom-Built."
>> > especially when the description reads further that he's not sure of the
>> > "manufacturer." Quite often, "custom-built" means just that -- built
>> > (from scratch) as
>> > the only existing item by the hobbyist, whereby there may not have been
>> > a
>> > commercial manufacturer being involved. You may want to ask more
>> > questions in
>> > this case. I don't recall ever seeing a model like this (with this
>> > appearance) being produced, although that's not to say there wasn't
>> > one.
>> >
>> > Ulrich produced an operating hopper car dumper though, but I don't
>> > recall
>> > it as even being similar to this eBay offering. Come to think of it, I
>> > don't
>> > believe I mentioned it in the Ulrich spread sheet now in the files,
>> > even
>> > though I may have one (or two) buried somewhere in my collection. As
>> > for the
>> > one being offered, it does look like it could be interesting to
>> > operate,
>> > whether or not it was actually "produced." Ray F.W. </HTML>
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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19:35:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 12882 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Re: Interesting EBay Listing, rotary dumper
Yeah I know all about Ebay discriptions, Rare, hard to find, custom built and so on... seems everyone likes using these terms very loosely to try to up a sale,
But I have found some sellers that do use he builders names on items that were acually custon build or scratch built,
the sad one is the Kits that are assembled are getting tagged RTR.

But I figured this dumper to something vintage and pretty intersting as a piece as why I shared it here as well.

Larry L Doub
Davenport Iowa

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
>
> I would consider "custom built" to be synonymous with "professionally
> built". I have engaged in such work--one loco I rebuilt from a brass model
> recently sold on eBay. from the estate of the fellow I built it for. If an
> item is "custom built" or "pro built" the lister should provide the name of
> the builder if at all possible. gj
Group: vintageHO Message: 12883 From: madchemep2@aol.com Date: 1/6/2010
Subject: Interesting EBay Listing, any info on this?
Hello: I saw a similar unit on a layout at the Greenburg show in Wilmington MA last Nov. The young lady seemed quite proud of it and insisted on demonstrating it. It worked smoothly and seemed prototypical. I think it was a one of a kind for that layout. Regards, Al Campbell
Group: vintageHO Message: 12884 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/7/2010
Subject: Varney Plastic rolling stock
Stock cars, specifically.

I am cleaning "weathering" (read: splattering) off this bunch of stuff I got.

I have a yaller MKT stock, the sides flex and the floor comes right out.
I have an ATSF red stock, the floor has no parting line to the sides (cleaned and looked, carefully).
It appears they cast this as floor/sides, with the roof glued on.
Weights were loose, PITA trying to play "ship in a bottle" getting them in with silicone on them.

When did they change the production?
I am trying to figure out vintages of the two.

Thanks.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12885 From: Karl Peters Date: 1/7/2010
Subject: Car Dumper in Kalmbach book.
The book you are thinking of is 'BRIDGES AND BUILDINGS FOR MODEL RAILROADS'  copyright is 1965. I believe that the chapters are reprints of Model Railroader articles from the late fifty's-early sixtes. 
 
The article is "Operating Car Dumper" written by Frank R. Titman, a well known S scale modeler. 
 
Karl Peters
Group: vintageHO Message: 12886 From: Garry Spear Date: 1/8/2010
Subject: Re: Globe and Athearn All metal Tanks Cars: HERCULES & MOBILGAS
Athearn:  All Metal Mobilgas Tank #8034.  Some assembly and paint
done.  The kit appears to be complete.  Look at the Pictures.  $15 + 5
shipping: $20.

http://home.att.net/~twotwotrain/S881a.jpg
http://home.att.net/~twotwotrain/S881b.jpg
http://home.att.net/~twotwotrain/S881c.jpg
http://home.att.net/~twotwotrain/S881d.jpg

Globe:  All Metal Hercules Tank #573.  Some assembly done.  The kit
appears to be complete.  Look at the Pictures.  $20 + 5 shipping: $25.

http://home.att.net/~twotwotrain/S882a.jpg
http://home.att.net/~twotwotrain/S882b.jpg
http://home.att.net/~twotwotrain/S882c.jpg
http://home.att.net/~twotwotrain/S882d.jpg
http://home.att.net/~twotwotrain/S882e.jpg

$35 for both cars.  Reasonable Offers considered.

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 12887 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/9/2010
Subject: Re: Protoype color scheme question
As I understand it, the five different color schemes offered by MDC on that
car were actually "experimental" colors that GN applied to only a few cars
each/

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Neubaum" <computersystemrebuild@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Protoype color scheme question


Ray,

Funny how the prototype is - I have an old O Scale 2-rail boxcar that is
converted to 3-rail. It is a plywood side GN boxcar, and it has boxcar red
roof, ends and doors, that look painted by the modeler. Funny how two
different modelers came up with the same artistic license on the same design
of car.

Mine looks good the way it is, though, so I do not plan to change it.
However, if I ever have a reason to repaint the doors, roof, or ends, now I
know what is proper.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Tue, 1/5/10, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:

From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Protoype color scheme question
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 6:21 AM

















Dave, Sounds like you have an MDC # 602 GN "Plywood Panel" type box
car (no doubt numbered 44070). The roof and ends should not be Box Car Red.
The doors should be Reefer Yellow to match the sides, and the roof and ends
(and underframe) are Black -- as per Roundhouse/MDC instructions. Ray F.W.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12888 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/9/2010
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
BTW, the eBay car that started this thread is now pictured in my album "zdon
dellmann's stuff, Ulrich" or click on "new photos".

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 11:12 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ANOTHER question




Not quite.
On this one, the bracing is two piecs total, one piece per side, with ledges
for doorways.
End steps are cast as part of side bracing casting.
Car ends are separate castings.
Wood center sill, with the metal cross braces only on each side of the
center sill.
Same at bolsters.
The wood sides actually sit on a lip at the bottom of the braces.
I can't get any photos until Sunday, try then.

Dave


>
> I think I have one of those cars, where the outside bracing is all cast as
> one piece (Four total - one for each quarter of the car either side of the
> door.
>
> Unfortuantely, mine is pretty bad up - my back kicked out, and I fell
> over, right into a box of vintage model trains, which went all over the
> place. Mostly salvagable, but this outside braced car needs LOTS of help.
>
> I do think mine is an Ulrich, so if you can provide a picture of the car,
> I can tell you if it is like mine (Which is lettered for the Seaboard).
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12889 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/9/2010
Subject: Re: ANOTHER question
Yup, that's it. At least now I know what the doors are supposed to look like, and I can start searching for them.
I don't think mine was ever finished enough to be placed in service.

Dave


>
> BTW, the eBay car that started this thread is now pictured in my album "zdon
> dellmann's stuff, Ulrich" or click on "new photos".
Group: vintageHO Message: 12890 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/9/2010
Subject: Sure am glad for HOSeeker's data
I have this gondola, straight sides, N&W, black, had it in the family for over 50, probably 55 years.

We got all our stuff used, so didn't know who made it, or even how old it is.

Searching tonight, none of the 'regulars" fit the bill.

Gilbert.

All plastic Gilbert.

Another one identified.
Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12891 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/10/2010
Subject: Clean-up work
Decided this afternoon to put trucks and couplers (if couplers were available) on all the "partial" pieces I am currently working on.

Matching up sideframes and wheelsets to a specific car seems to take some time (and there are some, specifically cabeese, that have mis-matched trucks...have to fix that).

So, last one is this Mantua shell on a PennLine chassis.

Those PennLines have odd bolster kingpins.
Too wide to fit through any trucks I have.

Then, digging through the "bits", I see a truck bolster with a recess on both sides...one for the screw head, the other......fits perfectly over the kingpin boss.

So, I dig for another.
Next one had one sideframe, so I knew what they were supposed to look like.

Dug out wheels, springs, and finished it off, until I get the door and guide from Missouri.

In the process, I found a box of "bits" I had orderd a year ago......then found my F-3 A and B unit Varneys, the replacement ladders were in this box of bits.....so, I'm back to the shop, get the parts fitted, ready for paint.

I now have over 20 die-cast, vintage locomotives, restored and running, a couple running, but not yet repainted.

Next week I will be able to triple-head Version 2 Mantua Mikados on the nose, and triple-head pusher of Varney Old Lady 2-8-0's on the back, with 5 or 6 Varney cabeese at the end of the train.

This is nutz.

Certainly never had this amount of stuff as a kid.

One Mantua Mike, a couple of rubber-band F's, a Hustler, and broken stuff.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12892 From: DOM ST.JOHN Date: 1/10/2010
Subject: Re: Sure am glad for HOSeeker's data
If the number on the gondola is 505 or 33505 it is Gilbert. Or the most rare 33122 is also Gilbert. Usually though the last car is found broken or badly bent.
Dom

--- On Sat, 1/9/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Sure am glad for HOSeeker's data
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 9, 2010, 11:57 PM

 

I have this gondola, straight sides, N&W, black, had it in the family for over 50, probably 55 years.

We got all our stuff used, so didn't know who made it, or even how old it is.

Searching tonight, none of the 'regulars" fit the bill.

Gilbert.

All plastic Gilbert.

Another one identified.
Dave

Group: vintageHO Message: 12893 From: comox11 Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Red Ball Side dump Hopper/Stone car
Hi folks.
I have a Red Ball #4319 with no instructions. I have not even a drawing of the car, would anyone out there have this info. Thanks in advance, Guy
Group: vintageHO Message: 12894 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Side dump Hopper/Stone car
Hi Gary, I have the kit and wil check on the instructions and confirm later tonight. If so, I can copy them on Wednesday and mail out then. No scanner here. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "comox11" <ghbrooke@...> wrote:
>
> Hi folks.
> I have a Red Ball #4319 with no instructions. I have not even a drawing of the car, would anyone out there have this info. Thanks in advance, Guy
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12895 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Varney caboose question
I am rebuilding/repairing an old metal Varney caboose.
I know from research they had these in the catalog from 1939 or so until at least 1950.
Granted, trucks can be swapped out over the years, but this one has the old non-sprung, non-equalized units shown in the upper corner of this page:
http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1941pg25.jpg

Is there any other way to date these older units than the trucks?

Thanks!

Oh, one more thing......what did the stack look like?
Hard to tell from the catalogs...

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12896 From: comox11 Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Side dump Hopper/Stone car
Thanks Jay that would be greatly appreciated, i can give you my street address off list. Guy

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Gary, I have the kit and wil check on the instructions and confirm later tonight. If so, I can copy them on Wednesday and mail out then. No scanner here. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "comox11" <ghbrooke@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi folks.
> > I have a Red Ball #4319 with no instructions. I have not even a drawing of the car, would anyone out there have this info. Thanks in advance, Guy
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12897 From: toytrain13 Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
Hello- On the subject of missing instruction sheets, I would like to obtain a copy of the instruction sheet for Red Ball #K-197 ARA Box Car. This is the kit with the aluminum foil sides, ends and roof, and frankly, it looks like a difficult kit to build in a workmanlike manner. I would appreciate any help. Richard White
Group: vintageHO Message: 12898 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Side dump Hopper/Stone car
OK Guy, Have the instructions right here, will copy and mail them out to you Wed. afternoon, send me your address off list. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "comox11" <ghbrooke@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Jay that would be greatly appreciated, i can give you my street address off list. Guy
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Gary, I have the kit and wil check on the instructions and confirm later tonight. If so, I can copy them on Wednesday and mail out then. No scanner here. Jay W.
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "comox11" <ghbrooke@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi folks.
> > > I have a Red Ball #4319 with no instructions. I have not even a drawing of the car, would anyone out there have this info. Thanks in advance, Guy
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12899 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
Hi Richard W., Sorry, that is one kit I do not have. Howell Day manufactured two other kits using that embossed aluminum, too, a version of the N&W high side gon and the mill gon. A photograph of the assembled box car is in Catalog 11 on HO Seeker, but not much help as to assembly. Perhaps someone else has one here. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...> wrote:
>
> Hello- On the subject of missing instruction sheets, I would like to obtain a copy of the instruction sheet for Red Ball #K-197 ARA Box Car. This is the kit with the aluminum foil sides, ends and roof, and frankly, it looks like a difficult kit to build in a workmanlike manner. I would appreciate any help. Richard White
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12900 From: ottsm Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Normally I'm into S gauge American Flyer sets. A couple of years back I started purchasing American Flyer HO scale stuff. My sons getting old enough now and soon we will be building a layout. I like to avoid modifying the couplers as this effects the value of the items. This eliminates using Kadee couplers as replacements.

If I have to live with the hold X2F hook horn couplers, what options are best for Decoupling?

As a side note, I looked at what Kadee recommends to modify American Flyer hook horn couples to Kadee. Seems to me a less invasive way could be done (cutting the coupler box up just isn't an option). They make a double whisker shank, if they would just make the hole smaller I don't see why one of those wouldn't work. I though about getting some. Not sure if they are too big to fit in the box housing for the old hook horns. If they are not, then a hollow spacer could be used to makeup the smaller pin difference. Anyone try this?

To repair the existing X2F couplers on American Flyer I take old Tyco style couplers and cut the plastic spring off so its rounded around the hole for the pin. I save the old style whisker spring and reuse.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12901 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/11/2010
Subject: Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Same screwdriver you use for Kadees works on horn-hooks.
However, they made an uncoupler....a piece of black plastic with two pieces of music wire parallel to each other (altho I think I remember solid plastic units).
Generally did not uncouple under load, just when you backed into it, and left the car.

Dave
> Normally I'm into S gauge American Flyer sets. A couple of years back I started purchasing American Flyer HO scale stuff. My sons getting old enough now and soon we will be building a layout. I like to avoid modifying the couplers as this effects the value of the items. This eliminates using Kadee couplers as replacements.
>
> If I have to live with the hold X2F hook horn couplers, what options are best for Decoupling?
>
> As a side note, I looked at what Kadee recommends to modify American Flyer hook horn couples to Kadee. Seems to me a less invasive way could be done (cutting the coupler box up just isn't an option). They make a double whisker shank, if they would just make the hole smaller I don't see why one of those wouldn't work. I though about getting some. Not sure if they are too big to fit in the box housing for the old hook horns. If they are not, then a hollow spacer could be used to makeup the smaller pin difference. Anyone try this?
>
> To repair the existing X2F couplers on American Flyer I take old Tyco style couplers and cut the plastic spring off so its rounded around the hole for the pin. I save the old style whisker spring and reuse.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12902 From: Denny Anspach Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Varney caboose question
I am rebuilding/repairin g an old metal Varney caboose

H-mm. I am unaware of metal Varney caboose models- at least prior to c. 1950.  The ATSF-prototype caboose kits that Varney produced prior to 1948-9 did have embossed aluminum foil facing (on Bristol board) prior to WWII, but I would not think that that would be confused as "metal".  

Mantua?  American Flyer?

Denny
 
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento



Group: vintageHO Message: 12903 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Varney caboose question
Didn't say it was solid.
Some kind of light metal over wood framing, exactly like the catalog photos on HO Seeker, Varney on back of cast steps, Varney on trucks, end beams (looks like), so, yes, metal over wood framing, just like the Athearn kits were metal over wood framing.

http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varney1939catalogpg17.jpg
http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1950spg08.jpg
http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1941pg06.jpg

Now, I don't think I'd call this "embossed aluminium foil on bristol board", as there does not seem to be any backing to the metal, which is far, far thicker than any foil I've ever seem.

The drawings shown in the last link (1941 catalog) show no backing, in fact, the header calls it a "Varney embossed metal caboose kit", not a "Varney embossed aluminum foil facing (on Bristol board) kit".

As you can see from the links, 1939, 1941, and the same caboose kit seems to appear in 1950 brochure.

Just quoting the Varney literature, and looking at what I have in-hand.

Dave


> H-mm. I am unaware of metal Varney caboose models- at least prior to c. 1950. The ATSF-prototype caboose kits that Varney produced prior to 1948-9 did have embossed aluminum foil facing (on Bristol board) prior to WWII, but I would not think that that would be confused as "metal".
>
> Mantua? American Flyer?
>
> Denny
>
> Denny S. Anspach, MD
> Sacramento
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12904 From: Jeff Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Some other options: Atlas used to have a snap-track piece with a spring ramp that would uncouple from one direction but not the other. I also once had a ramp raised by a pull-string to do the job when required.


Jeff Cornelius

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "ottsm" <ottsm@...> wrote:
>
> Normally I'm into S gauge American Flyer sets. A couple of years back I started purchasing American Flyer HO scale stuff. My sons getting old enough now and soon we will be building a layout. I like to avoid modifying the couplers as this effects the value of the items. This eliminates using Kadee couplers as replacements.
>
> If I have to live with the hold X2F hook horn couplers, what options are best for Decoupling?
>
> As a side note, I looked at what Kadee recommends to modify American Flyer hook horn couples to Kadee. Seems to me a less invasive way could be done (cutting the coupler box up just isn't an option). They make a double whisker shank, if they would just make the hole smaller I don't see why one of those wouldn't work. I though about getting some. Not sure if they are too big to fit in the box housing for the old hook horns. If they are not, then a hollow spacer could be used to makeup the smaller pin difference. Anyone try this?
>
> To repair the existing X2F couplers on American Flyer I take old Tyco style couplers and cut the plastic spring off so its rounded around the hole for the pin. I save the old style whisker spring and reuse.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12905 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Varney caboose question
Hi Dave ("trainsnwrcs"),

Yes, Varney produced their AT&SF stle caboose with either embossed card sides and ends, or with embossed thin brass sheet stock, or embossed thin sheet aliminum; not foil covered card or what one would think of as aluminum foil. One side/end and a seperately embossed cupola side/end are on each small sheet of metal, which is finished with an embossed, round-corner frame, and the Varney name; a miniture work of model art! All types were supposed to be cut and fitted to the same type of wood car body sub-structure.

According to the Varney Guide,
(pub by Greenburg and worth locating a copy)

C-1 embossed brown card was sold - 1938-1940
C-1 with red bristol card was sold - 1940-1942
C-1 with embossed brass sides was sold - 1940-1942
C-1 again with Bristol card sides from 1946-1949
C-2 with the embossed aluminum sides - 1948-1950

I found an uncut, but factory painted brown aluminum set in a junk lot last year and they are very nicely done, rivets appear to be scale sized and correctly placed. Also have two partially completed card ones that I found in one long Varney box and should complete at least one!

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
>
> Didn't say it was solid.
> Some kind of light metal over wood framing, exactly like the catalog photos on HO Seeker, Varney on back of cast steps, Varney on trucks, end beams (looks like), so, yes, metal over wood framing, just like the Athearn kits were metal over wood framing.
>
> http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varney1939catalogpg17.jpg
> http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1950spg08.jpg
> http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1941pg06.jpg
>
> Now, I don't think I'd call this "embossed aluminium foil on bristol board", as there does not seem to be any backing to the metal, which is far, far thicker than any foil I've ever seem.
>
> The drawings shown in the last link (1941 catalog) show no backing, in fact, the header calls it a "Varney embossed metal caboose kit", not a "Varney embossed aluminum foil facing (on Bristol board) kit".
>
> As you can see from the links, 1939, 1941, and the same caboose kit seems to appear in 1950 brochure.
>
> Just quoting the Varney literature, and looking at what I have in-hand.
>
> Dave
>
>
> > H-mm. I am unaware of metal Varney caboose models- at least prior to c. 1950. The ATSF-prototype caboose kits that Varney produced prior to 1948-9 did have embossed aluminum foil facing (on Bristol board) prior to WWII, but I would not think that that would be confused as "metal".
> >
> > Mantua? American Flyer?
> >
> > Denny
> >
> > Denny S. Anspach, MD
> > Sacramento
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12906 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Varney caboose question
Hard to tell, yet, whether aluminium or brass.
Had to straighten a "ding" in one of the toolbox ends, felt like brass, but not sure.

The main question earlier was the vintage of the trucks, with a link, as far as trying to "date" the caboose.

So, now, I shall attempt to find out if it's brass or aluminium!

Thanks!

Dave


> Hi Dave ("trainsnwrcs"),
>
> Yes, Varney produced their AT&SF stle caboose with either embossed card sides and ends, or with embossed thin brass sheet stock, or embossed thin sheet aliminum; not foil covered card or what one would think of as aluminum foil. One side/end and a seperately embossed cupola side/end are on each small sheet of metal, which is finished with an embossed, round-corner frame, and the Varney name; a miniture work of model art! All types were supposed to be cut and fitted to the same type of wood car body sub-structure.
>
> According to the Varney Guide,
> (pub by Greenburg and worth locating a copy)
>
> C-1 embossed brown card was sold - 1938-1940
> C-1 with red bristol card was sold - 1940-1942
> C-1 with embossed brass sides was sold - 1940-1942
> C-1 again with Bristol card sides from 1946-1949
> C-2 with the embossed aluminum sides - 1948-1950
>
> I found an uncut, but factory painted brown aluminum set in a junk lot last year and they are very nicely done, rivets appear to be scale sized and correctly placed. Also have two partially completed card ones that I found in one long Varney box and should complete at least one!
>
> W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Didn't say it was solid.
> > Some kind of light metal over wood framing, exactly like the catalog photos on HO Seeker, Varney on back of cast steps, Varney on trucks, end beams (looks like), so, yes, metal over wood framing, just like the Athearn kits were metal over wood framing.
> >
> > http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varney1939catalogpg17.jpg
> > http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1950spg08.jpg
> > http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1941pg06.jpg
> >
> > Now, I don't think I'd call this "embossed aluminium foil on bristol board", as there does not seem to be any backing to the metal, which is far, far thicker than any foil I've ever seem.
> >
> > The drawings shown in the last link (1941 catalog) show no backing, in fact, the header calls it a "Varney embossed metal caboose kit", not a "Varney embossed aluminum foil facing (on Bristol board) kit".
> >
> > As you can see from the links, 1939, 1941, and the same caboose kit seems to appear in 1950 brochure.
> >
> > Just quoting the Varney literature, and looking at what I have in-hand.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > > H-mm. I am unaware of metal Varney caboose models- at least prior to c. 1950. The ATSF-prototype caboose kits that Varney produced prior to 1948-9 did have embossed aluminum foil facing (on Bristol board) prior to WWII, but I would not think that that would be confused as "metal".
> > >
> > > Mantua? American Flyer?
> > >
> > > Denny
> > >
> > > Denny S. Anspach, MD
> > > Sacramento
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12907 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
So far as using whisker coupler spring Kadees, I have bought some 1/8" Evergreen tubing, and cut it to shim the thin center post on Varney plastic cars to the right diameter for Kadees.

Think that might work on Gilbert cars? Not sure what you have in front of you, so I am only suggesting this on my personal experience.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Mon, 1/11/10, ottsm <ottsm@...> wrote:

From: ottsm <ottsm@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 9:49 PM

 

Normally I'm into S gauge American Flyer sets. A couple of years back I started purchasing American Flyer HO scale stuff. My sons getting old enough now and soon we will be building a layout. I like to avoid modifying the couplers as this effects the value of the items. This eliminates using Kadee couplers as replacements.

If I have to live with the hold X2F hook horn couplers, what options are best for Decoupling?

As a side note, I looked at what Kadee recommends to modify American Flyer hook horn couples to Kadee. Seems to me a less invasive way could be done (cutting the coupler box up just isn't an option). They make a double whisker shank, if they would just make the hole smaller I don't see why one of those wouldn't work. I though about getting some. Not sure if they are too big to fit in the box housing for the old hook horns. If they are not, then a hollow spacer could be used to makeup the smaller pin difference. Anyone try this?

To repair the existing X2F couplers on American Flyer I take old Tyco style couplers and cut the plastic spring off so its rounded around the hole for the pin. I save the old style whisker spring and reuse.

Group: vintageHO Message: 12908 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Re: Varney caboose question
I have the unbuilt and uncut metal sides of one of these cabooses.

I'm convinced mine is raw copper sheet.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 12, 2010, at 12:02 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:

>
>
> Hard to tell, yet, whether aluminium or brass.
> Had to straighten a "ding" in one of the toolbox ends, felt like
> brass, but not sure.
>
> The main question earlier was the vintage of the trucks, with a
> link, as far as trying to "date" the caboose.
>
> So, now, I shall attempt to find out if it's brass or aluminium!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave
>
>
>> Hi Dave ("trainsnwrcs"),
>>
>> Yes, Varney produced their AT&SF stle caboose with either embossed
>> card sides and ends, or with embossed thin brass sheet stock, or
>> embossed thin sheet aliminum; not foil covered card or what one
>> would think of as aluminum foil.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12909 From: ottsm Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Some of the cars American Flyer used were made by Varney. Which model number of Kadees did you use?

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
>
> So far as using whisker coupler spring Kadees, I have bought some 1/8" Evergreen tubing, and cut it to shim the thin center post on Varney plastic cars to the right diameter for Kadees.
>
> Think that might work on Gilbert cars? Not sure what you have in front of you, so I am only suggesting this on my personal experience.
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
> --- On Mon, 1/11/10, ottsm <ottsm@...> wrote:
>
> From: ottsm <ottsm@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 9:49 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Normally I'm into S gauge American Flyer sets. A couple of years back I started purchasing American Flyer HO scale stuff. My sons getting old enough now and soon we will be building a layout. I like to avoid modifying the couplers as this effects the value of the items. This eliminates using Kadee couplers as replacements.
>
>
>
> If I have to live with the hold X2F hook horn couplers, what options are best for Decoupling?
>
>
>
> As a side note, I looked at what Kadee recommends to modify American Flyer hook horn couples to Kadee. Seems to me a less invasive way could be done (cutting the coupler box up just isn't an option). They make a double whisker shank, if they would just make the hole smaller I don't see why one of those wouldn't work. I though about getting some. Not sure if they are too big to fit in the box housing for the old hook horns. If they are not, then a hollow spacer could be used to makeup the smaller pin difference. Anyone try this?
>
>
>
> To repair the existing X2F couplers on American Flyer I take old Tyco style couplers and cut the plastic spring off so its rounded around the hole for the pin. I save the old style whisker spring and reuse.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12910 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/12/2010
Subject: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
No real idea what this is, closest seems to be Thomas.

Brass (seemingly) tube, ends, die-cast frame with a series of holes in the floor for (center two) ladder, not sure on the others.

Cleaning splatter/weathering off, lettered APCO Petroleum Products.

Did a search on da google, inconclusive, so I thought I'd hit the font of knowledge.

Thanks!

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12911 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Backshopping old brass steam
Some of you might remember that brass 4-8-2 steam engine I posted about last year,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/2111784903/pic/2068691381/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

I was wondering, how easy is backshopping these,
reason being, I worked on it a little bit, cleaning areas of contact so it would run smooth, or so thought they were, but seems I did something someplace I wasn't suppose to when I last had track up, and it sorry to say, it stopped working after that.
I would like to get it running again, and run well,
I can't make up my mind if I want to strip the paint and polish it up or do a repaint on it when it gets worked on,

Any Thoughts or help are most wanted,

Larry L Doub
Davenport Iowa
Group: vintageHO Message: 12912 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:22 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?


> No real idea what this is, closest seems to be Thomas.
>
> Brass (seemingly) tube, ends, die-cast frame with a series of holes in the
> floor for (center two) ladder, not sure on the others.
>
> Cleaning splatter/weathering off, lettered APCO Petroleum Products.
>
> Did a search on da google, inconclusive, so I thought I'd hit the font of
> knowledge.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave

Can you give us some pictures?

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
Group: vintageHO Message: 12913 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
Dave, Thomas did produce an Anderson-Prichard (APCO) tank car (I don't
know of any other manufacturer who did). I'm fairly sure we did a spread-sheet
on this manufacturer also -- just check the files to match the car number
with yours. Ray</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12914 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer
Atlas (i think) made (makes?) a nine inch straight section with a white
plastic insert to uncouple horn-hook couplers. My dad didn't like Kadee's so
his pike had the uncoupling ramps.


Steve W.
www.prrh.org
www.marx-trains.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 12:09 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Decoupler for X2F couplers American Flyer



Same screwdriver you use for Kadees works on horn-hooks.
However, they made an uncoupler....a piece of black plastic with two pieces
of music wire parallel to each other (altho I think I remember solid plastic
units).
Generally did not uncouple under load, just when you backed into it, and
left the car.

Dave
> Normally I'm into S gauge American Flyer sets. A couple of years back I
> started purchasing American Flyer HO scale stuff. My sons getting old
> enough now and soon we will be building a layout. I like to avoid
> modifying the couplers as this effects the value of the items. This
> eliminates using Kadee couplers as replacements.
>
> If I have to live with the hold X2F hook horn couplers, what options are
> best for Decoupling?
>
> As a side note, I looked at what Kadee recommends to modify American Flyer
> hook horn couples to Kadee. Seems to me a less invasive way could be done
> (cutting the coupler box up just isn't an option). They make a double
> whisker shank, if they would just make the hole smaller I don't see why
> one of those wouldn't work. I though about getting some. Not sure if
> they are too big to fit in the box housing for the old hook horns. If
> they are not, then a hollow spacer could be used to makeup the smaller pin
> difference. Anyone try this?
>
> To repair the existing X2F couplers on American Flyer I take old Tyco
> style couplers and cut the plastic spring off so its rounded around the
> hole for the pin. I save the old style whisker spring and reuse.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12915 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
Well, according to research done late last night, it appears at least Athearn did, but they were white or light grey, not black.

The Globe drawings for a tank car looked somewhat the same, but not quite.

I found a photo this morning of a different road name Thomas that seems to have the extra holes in the running boards not shown in the Thomas drawings.

Dave


> Dave, Thomas did produce an Anderson-Prichard (APCO) tank car (I don't
> know of any other manufacturer who did). I'm fairly sure we did a spread-sheet
> on this manufacturer also -- just check the files to match the car number
> with yours. Ray</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12916 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
Dave, I don't know what you were researching late last night -- but as I
told you -- Thomas offered an APCO tank car. I know of no others by any other
manufacturer -- Athearn DID NOT produce a metal APCO tank car of ANY
color(s), but you may believe whatever you wish in your research. Ray </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12917 From: Carl Neste Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney caboose question
I have one of these Varney caboose kits, partially completed. The box calls it "Caboose, Embossed Metal Sides, C2". The embossed metal is definitely aluminum (shiny silver, non-ferrous). The kit originally came with solid cast zamac sideframe trucks with brass bolsters and wheels (which I've replaced with Central Valley trucks with Kemtron caboose leaf springs). The instructions refer to the 'stove smoke pipe', which is made of a short piece of wood dowel, to be capped with a paper piece cut from the instruction sheet, bent and attached to the top of the dowel. The instructions don't show any kind of guy wires. The instructions, by the way, have a date of 3-49.
Carl


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 7:49 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Varney caboose question

 

I have the unbuilt and uncut metal sides of one of these cabooses.

I'm convinced mine is raw copper sheet.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 12, 2010, at 12:02 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:

>
>
> Hard to tell, yet, whether aluminium or
brass.
> Had to straighten a "ding" in one of the toolbox ends, felt like
> brass, but not sure.
>
> The main question earlier was the
vintage of the trucks, with a
> link, as far as trying to "date" the
caboose.
>
> So, now, I shall attempt to find out if it's brass or
aluminium!
>
> Thanks!
>
>
Dave
>
>
>> Hi Dave
("trainsnwrcs" ),
>>
>> Yes, Varney produced their
AT&SF stle caboose with either embossed
>> card sides and ends, or
with embossed thin brass sheet stock, or
>> embossed thin sheet
aliminum; not foil covered card or what one
>> would think of as
aluminum foil.

Group: vintageHO Message: 12918 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: Thomas single-dome tankcar photo?
Not metal,,,,just APCO.

>
> Dave, I don't know what you were researching late last night -- but as I
> told you -- Thomas offered an APCO tank car. I know of no others by any other
> manufacturer -- Athearn DID NOT produce a metal APCO tank car of ANY
> color(s), but you may believe whatever you wish in your research. Ray </HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12919 From: Richard White Date: 1/13/2010
Subject: Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
Hi Jay- Thanks for the information regarding the photo of the K-197 ARA boxcar on HO Seeker. The photo was helpful in resolving an issue regarding how the sides meet the ends. It seems that the ends are still too wide however! And I've just learned that the foil sides, etc., have a peel-and-stick design. I wonder if that still works after forty-three years! Regards- Richard
  

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: the_plainsman@...
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:58:47 +0000
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet

 
Hi Richard W., Sorry, that is one kit I do not have. Howell Day manufactured two other kits using that embossed aluminum, too, a version of the N&W high side gon and the mill gon. A photograph of the assembled box car is in Catalog 11 on HO Seeker, but not much help as to assembly. Perhaps someone else has one here. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hello- On the subject of missing instruction sheets, I would like to obtain a copy of the instruction sheet for Red Ball #K-197 ARA Box Car. This is the kit with the aluminum foil sides, ends and roof, and frankly, it looks like a difficult kit to build in a workmanlike manner. I would appreciate any help. Richard White
>




Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12920 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 1/14/2010
Subject: Re: Backshopping old brass steam
Larry; it's a shame you don't live closer to Cleveland. I enjoy working on those. I'll assume that it's a Bowser/Penn Line, or at least using the mechanism from one of the Bowser 4-8-2's.

I do a clinic on repairing brass locomotives, and you might find the handout useful. I'll post the handout to the list's files if I can find it on the hard drive.

But generally, if it's not running, try to find out (using a meter if you have one)if it's a short or an open circuit. If it's mechanical, disassemble step by step until it's running; then reassemble carefully, checking for absence of binds. I find that the older pieces are often a bit easier to work on because the parts are larger and the details aren't so delicate.

Go slowly and have patience. Needed parts are still, I think, available from Bowser.

That's the one paragraph version. The clinic takes an hour or more depending on audience participation.

Good luck. Please e mail me off list if you have any questions.

Frank Bongiovanni



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Mr Larry L. Doub" <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
>
> Some of you might remember that brass 4-8-2 steam engine I posted about last year,
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/2111784903/pic/2068691381/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
>
> I was wondering, how easy is backshopping these,
> reason being, I worked on it a little bit, cleaning areas of contact so it would run smooth, or so thought they were, but seems I did something someplace I wasn't suppose to when I last had track up, and it sorry to say, it stopped working after that.
> I would like to get it running again, and run well,
> I can't make up my mind if I want to strip the paint and polish it up or do a repaint on it when it gets worked on,
>
> Any Thoughts or help are most wanted,
>
> Larry L Doub
> Davenport Iowa
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12921 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/14/2010
Subject: Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
Richard W., Glad the photo was of some help. The earlier similarly constructed N&W High Side Gon kit I have from that catalog seems to have a water activate gum adhesive. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Jay- Thanks for the information regarding the photo of the K-197 ARA boxcar on HO Seeker. The photo was helpful in resolving an issue regarding how the sides meet the ends. It seems that the ends are still too wide however! And I've just learned that the foil sides, etc., have a peel-and-stick design. I wonder if that still works after forty-three years! Regards- Richard
>
>
>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> From: the_plainsman@...
> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:58:47 +0000
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Richard W., Sorry, that is one kit I do not have. Howell Day manufactured two other kits using that embossed aluminum, too, a version of the N&W high side gon and the mill gon. A photograph of the assembled box car is in Catalog 11 on HO Seeker, but not much help as to assembly. Perhaps someone else has one here. W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello- On the subject of missing instruction sheets, I would like to obtain a copy of the instruction sheet for Red Ball #K-197 ARA Box Car. This is the kit with the aluminum foil sides, ends and roof, and frankly, it looks like a difficult kit to build in a workmanlike manner. I would appreciate any help. Richard White
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12922 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Hi, this is a long shot, but I need decals for the LaBelle kit of their 1900 observation car of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul railroad.
 
In a message dated 1/14/2010 9:51:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_plainsman@... writes:
Richard W., Glad the photo was of some help.  The earlier similarly constructed N&W High Side Gon kit I have from that catalog seems to have a water activate gum adhesive.  W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Jay- Thanks for the information regarding the photo of the K-197 ARA boxcar on HO Seeker. The photo was helpful in resolving an issue regarding how the sides meet the ends. It seems that the ends are still too wide however! And I've just learned that the foil sides, etc., have a peel-and-stick design. I wonder if that still works after forty-three years! Regards- Richard
>  
>
>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> From: the_plainsman@...
> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:58:47 +0000
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
>
>  
>
>
>
> Hi Richard W., Sorry, that is one kit I do not have. Howell Day manufactured two other kits using that embossed aluminum, too, a version of the N&W high side gon and the mill gon. A photograph of the assembled box car is in Catalog 11 on HO Seeker, but not much help as to assembly. Perhaps someone else has one here. W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello- On the subject of missing instruction sheets, I would like to obtain a copy of the instruction sheet for Red Ball #K-197 ARA Box Car. This is the kit with the aluminum foil sides, ends and roof, and frankly, it looks like a difficult kit to build in a workmanlike manner. I would appreciate any help. Richard White
> >
>
>
>
>
>                    
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
>




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Group: vintageHO Message: 12923 From: John Hagen Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM
Re: [vintageHO] Re: CM

If you can't fid them I ca print them. Need a photo or diagram though.

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO Message: 12924 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Hi "luvprr",

Have you tried getting them direct from La Belle?
https://www.labellemodels.com/

W Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
>
> Hi, this is a long shot, but I need decals for the LaBelle kit of their
> 1900 observation car of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul railroad.
>
>
> In a message dated 1/14/2010 9:51:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> the_plainsman@... writes:
>
> Richard W., Glad the photo was of some help. The earlier similarly
> constructed N&W High Side Gon kit I have from that catalog seems to have a water
> activate gum adhesive. W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Jay- Thanks for the information regarding the photo of the K-197 ARA
> boxcar on HO Seeker. The photo was helpful in resolving an issue regarding
> how the sides meet the ends. It seems that the ends are still too wide
> however! And I've just learned that the foil sides, etc., have a peel-and-stick
> design. I wonder if that still works after forty-three years! Regards-
> Richard
> >
> >
> >
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> > From: the_plainsman@
> > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:58:47 +0000
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Richard W., Sorry, that is one kit I do not have. Howell Day
> manufactured two other kits using that embossed aluminum, too, a version of the N&W
> high side gon and the mill gon. A photograph of the assembled box car is
> in Catalog 11 on HO Seeker, but not much help as to assembly. Perhaps
> someone else has one here. W Jay W.
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello- On the subject of missing instruction sheets, I would like to
> obtain a copy of the instruction sheet for Red Ball #K-197 ARA Box Car. This
> is the kit with the aluminum foil sides, ends and roof, and frankly, it
> looks like a difficult kit to build in a workmanlike manner. I would
> appreciate any help. Richard White
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12925 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Looking for.....
Cheap.......probably since I'm cheap, eh?

An Athearn 0-4-2T "Lil' Monster" Vulcan switcher, basket case, not running is just fine, or at least a shell.

I have "bits" of two from my childhood, would like to piece one together.

Thanks!

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12926 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: Looking for.....
Have one, whats your address.
Don



-----Original Message-----
From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 12:30 pm
Subject: [vintageHO] Looking for.....

 
Cheap....... probably since I'm cheap, eh?

An Athearn 0-4-2T "Lil' Monster" Vulcan switcher, basket case, not running is just fine, or at least a shell.

I have "bits" of two from my childhood, would like to piece one together.

Thanks!

Dave

Group: vintageHO Message: 12927 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
group.

File : /LEMONAID; HANDOUT.doc
Uploaded by : bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...>
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bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12928 From: Garry Spear Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: FS: OSCAR PIKER Plus
Offering:

Walthers OSCAR & PIKER Complete Kits In OBs - $25
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S887a.jpg
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S887b.jpg

Riviarossi B&O 0-4-0 L&T $10 Note broken Tender step - Running
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S888a.jpg
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S888b.jpg

New One Metal 0-4-0 Engine Only $10 - not running
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S888c.jpg
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S888d.jpg

Multi-Item purchases will be discounted. Shipping will added. All
prices (and shipping) are negotiable.

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 12929 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
I don't recall that decals ever came with the LaBelle passenger cars. I
know the freight car kits came with dry transfers. You might try Champ, I
think they're still around.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
----- Original Message -----
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:23 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: CM&StP decals


> Hi "luvprr",
>
> Have you tried getting them direct from La Belle?
> https://www.labellemodels.com/
>
> W Jay W.
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
>>
>> Hi, this is a long shot, but I need decals for the LaBelle kit of their
>> 1900 observation car of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul railroad.
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/14/2010 9:51:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> the_plainsman@... writes:
>>
>> Richard W., Glad the photo was of some help. The earlier similarly
>> constructed N&W High Side Gon kit I have from that catalog seems to have
>> a water
>> activate gum adhesive. W Jay W.
>>
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Jay- Thanks for the information regarding the photo of the K-197
>> > ARA
>> boxcar on HO Seeker. The photo was helpful in resolving an issue
>> regarding
>> how the sides meet the ends. It seems that the ends are still too wide
>> however! And I've just learned that the foil sides, etc., have a
>> peel-and-stick
>> design. I wonder if that still works after forty-three years! Regards-
>> Richard
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> > From: the_plainsman@
>> > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:58:47 +0000
>> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Richard W., Sorry, that is one kit I do not have. Howell Day
>> manufactured two other kits using that embossed aluminum, too, a version
>> of the N&W
>> high side gon and the mill gon. A photograph of the assembled box car is
>> in Catalog 11 on HO Seeker, but not much help as to assembly. Perhaps
>> someone else has one here. W Jay W.
>> >
>> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Hello- On the subject of missing instruction sheets, I would like to
>> obtain a copy of the instruction sheet for Red Ball #K-197 ARA Box Car.
>> This
>> is the kit with the aluminum foil sides, ends and roof, and frankly, it
>> looks like a difficult kit to build in a workmanlike manner. I would
>> appreciate any help. Richard White
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
>> > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12930 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Don, I think you're right about LaBelle not providing decals. You would think the added cost for the kit would not be enough to discourage buyers, and would add to the general appeal. Champ is still hangin' in, but they don't carry what I need.
 
In a message dated 1/15/2010 8:36:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, don.dellmann@... writes:
I don't recall that decals ever came with the LaBelle passenger cars.  I
know the freight car kits came with dry transfers.  You might try Champ, I
think they're still around.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
----- Original Message -----
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:23 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: CM&StP decals


> Hi "luvprr",
>
> Have you tried getting them direct from La Belle?
> https://www.labellemodels.com/
>
> W Jay W.
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
>>
>> Hi, this is a long shot, but I need decals for the LaBelle kit of  their
>> 1900 observation car of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul railroad.
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/14/2010 9:51:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> the_plainsman@... writes:
>>
>> Richard  W., Glad the photo was of some help.  The earlier similarly
>> constructed  N&W High Side Gon kit I have from that catalog seems to have
>> a water
>> activate gum adhesive.  W Jay W.
>>
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com,  Richard White <toytrain13@> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Jay-  Thanks for the information regarding the photo of the K-197
>> > ARA
>> boxcar on HO  Seeker. The photo was helpful in resolving an issue
>> regarding
>> how the sides  meet the ends. It seems that the ends are still too wide
>> however! And I've  just learned that the foil sides, etc., have a
>> peel-and-stick
>> design. I wonder  if that still works after forty-three years! Regards-
>> Richard
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To:  vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> > From: the_plainsman@
>> > Date: Tue,  12 Jan 2010 03:58:47 +0000
>> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: K-197 Red Ball  instruction sheet
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Richard W., Sorry, that is one kit I do not have. Howell Day
>> manufactured two other kits using that embossed aluminum, too, a version
>> of  the N&W
>> high side gon and the mill gon. A photograph of the assembled box  car is
>> in Catalog 11 on HO Seeker, but not much help as to assembly. Perhaps
>> someone else has one here. W Jay W.
>> >
>> > --- In  vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
>> >  >
>> > > Hello- On the subject of missing instruction sheets, I would  like to
>> obtain a copy of the instruction sheet for Red Ball #K-197 ARA Box  Car.
>> This
>> is the kit with the aluminum foil sides, ends and roof, and frankly,  it
>> looks like a difficult kit to build in a workmanlike manner. I would
>> appreciate any help. Richard White
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  _________________________________________________________________
>> >  Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
>> >  http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo!  Groups Links
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO Message: 12931 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: Looking for.....
Sent you my address via e-mail.
Did you get it?

Dave



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dst8596587@... wrote:
>
>
> Have one, whats your address.
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 12:30 pm
> Subject: [vintageHO] Looking for.....
>
>
>
>
> Cheap.......probably since I'm cheap, eh?
>
> An Athearn 0-4-2T "Lil' Monster" Vulcan switcher, basket case, not running is just fine, or at least a shell.
>
> I have "bits" of two from my childhood, would like to piece one together.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12932 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Since I was wrong about LaBelle passenger car kits coming with decals, I'll try again. How about Clover House's extensive line? Their catalog is available as a pdf download on line. W Jay W.
http://www.cloverhouse.com


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
>
> Don, I think you're right about LaBelle not providing decals. You would
> think the added cost for the kit would not be enough to discourage buyers, and
> would add to the general appeal. Champ is still hangin' in, but they don't
> carry what I need.
>
>
> In a message dated 1/15/2010 8:36:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> don.dellmann@... writes:
>
> I don't recall that decals ever came with the LaBelle passenger cars. I
> know the freight car kits came with dry transfers. You might try Champ, I
>
> think they're still around.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 9:23 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: CM&StP decals
>
>
> > Hi "luvprr",
> >
> > Have you tried getting them direct from La Belle?
> > https://www.labellemodels.com/
> >
> > W Jay W.
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi, this is a long shot, but I need decals for the LaBelle kit of their
> >> 1900 observation car of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul railroad.
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 1/14/2010 9:51:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> >> the_plainsman@ writes:
> >>
> >> Richard W., Glad the photo was of some help. The earlier similarly
> >> constructed N&W High Side Gon kit I have from that catalog seems to
> have
> >> a water
> >> activate gum adhesive. W Jay W.
> >>
> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi Jay- Thanks for the information regarding the photo of the K-197
> >> > ARA
> >> boxcar on HO Seeker. The photo was helpful in resolving an issue
> >> regarding
> >> how the sides meet the ends. It seems that the ends are still too wide
> >> however! And I've just learned that the foil sides, etc., have a
> >> peel-and-stick
> >> design. I wonder if that still works after forty-three years! Regards-
> >> Richard
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> >> > From: the_plainsman@
> >> > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 03:58:47 +0000
> >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: K-197 Red Ball instruction sheet
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi Richard W., Sorry, that is one kit I do not have. Howell Day
> >> manufactured two other kits using that embossed aluminum, too, a
> version
> >> of the N&W
> >> high side gon and the mill gon. A photograph of the assembled box car
> is
> >> in Catalog 11 on HO Seeker, but not much help as to assembly. Perhaps
> >> someone else has one here. W Jay W.
> >> >
> >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Hello- On the subject of missing instruction sheets, I would like
> to
> >> obtain a copy of the instruction sheet for Red Ball #K-197 ARA Box
> Car.
> >> This
> >> is the kit with the aluminum foil sides, ends and roof, and frankly,
> it
> >> looks like a difficult kit to build in a workmanlike manner. I would
> >> appreciate any help. Richard White
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _________________________________________________________________
> >> > Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
> >> > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12933 From: Thomas Parsons Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: Re: FS: OSCAR PIKER Plus
I would like to purchase the two 0-4-0's if they are still available. Zip is 92505     Tom Parsons

--- On Fri, 1/15/10, Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> wrote:

From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] FS: OSCAR PIKER Plus
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 5:14 PM

 
Offering:

Walthers OSCAR & PIKER Complete Kits In OBs - $25
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S887a.jpg
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S887b.jpg

Riviarossi B&O 0-4-0 L&T $10 Note broken Tender step - Running
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S888a.jpg
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S888b.jpg

New One Metal 0-4-0 Engine Only $10 - not running
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S888c.jpg
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S888d.jpg

Multi-Item purchases will be discounted. Shipping will added. All
prices (and shipping) are negotiable.

Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO Message: 12934 From: ho6471trains Date: 1/15/2010
Subject: D&RG Western Stock cars, gondolas and Caboose Early 1900's
I am looking for some steam engines also. Tom Parsons
Group: vintageHO Message: 12935 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
luvprr@... wrote:
>
>
> Don, I think you're right about LaBelle not providing decals. You
> would think the added cost for the kit would not be enough to
> discourage buyers, and would add to the general appeal. Champ is still
> hangin' in, but they don't carry what I need.
>
>
LaBelle offered a number of Interurban decals, and the then owner ( Jim
Wilhite? ) even did custom printing ... he did some beautiful Piedmont
& Northern decals for me on his Alps printer. No idea about ready made
decals for the Milw car, but it should be easy to put it together from
individual letters. I suggest to buy a set for another road that
includes the necessary letters, this often is the better deal than a
number jungle that gives several sizes lettering , most of them useless.
A good example is Pullman car names, this provides plenty of letters in
the same size.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 12936 From: Denny Anspach Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
The last commercial producer of passenger CM&StP decals was Walthers
(produced by Bill Walthers himself), and they have been gone for at
least 30 years. Ted Schnepf <railsunl@...> produces
freight decals for CM& StP, but the last time I knew he has not
produced the passenger version (different layout and font size,
different color). To my knowledge Champ never produced any.

I too have wanted CM&StP passenger decals for some time. I used up my
Walthers cache some time ago, the last set going on to a LaBelle
baggage car!

One could always alter available Chicago Milwaukee St Paul & Pacific
decals to Chicago Milwaukee & St. Paul. Not exact (font and spacing),
but not bad- even acceptable.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento
Group: vintageHO Message: 12937 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Beware the Cat
Attachments :
Group,

Recently I got a new cat. She is a Siamese, named by the shelter I got her from. The shelter named her Loki. Now, go look up Norse Gods. Loki was, in mythology, the god of mischief.

So far, as far as my railroad is concerned, she has more than lived up to the name.

I got her this past Monday. Wednesday evening she jumped up onto my railroad, and sat next to the mainline. There was still enough space to run a train past, so I put on an A-B-A lashup of Hi-F drive diesels. Custom painted Warbonnet units. The motors make a fair bit of noise, and I wanted to scare her off so she wouldn't climb onto the railroad again.

Well I throttled up, and ran the diesels past her. Instead of getting scared and bolting, she knocked the three units off the rails, and camped out further from the tracks. I've attached a picture of the aftermath.

Now today I am in my bedroom working on a small N Scale layout there, and heard a loud thump in the living room. There was Loki on the railroad again, and on the floor was a Penn-Line K-4. No damage to the cast boiler, but the left side valve gear and valve gear hanger, were both seriously damaged. Of course, Loki gives me her best 'cute' look. Thankfully the hobby shop owner (Also a cat owner) understood and thinks he might have a spare set from a dead engine.

Cats. Got to love them!

-Steve Neubaum
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 12938 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat [1 Attachment]
The late layout-planning guru John Armstrong's family were cat people.  When I was there in the mid sixties one--named "Stephanie Jane"--was a railfan cat. We had to be sure that the door to the basement was latched so that she could not get down to the layout.  She would walk the tracks (O Gauge--and I don't know how she avoided getting zapped by the outside third rail)--and at times she would nap in one of the tunnels
 
As a teenager my brother and I had a room over the garage.  I had my HO layout there.  A favorite model was the Athearn die-cast crane. Those who have them know what a P.I.T.A. it was to rig the boom and hooks.  A neighbor's cat liked to come up and visit the layout--he would always knock over the crane, necessitating re-stringing all that thread.    gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:24 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Beware the Cat [1 Attachment]

Group,

Recently I got a new cat. She is a Siamese, named by the shelter I got her from. The shelter named her Loki. Now, go look up Norse Gods. Loki was, in mythology, the god of mischief.

So far, as far as my railroad is concerned, she has more than lived up to the name.

I got her this past Monday. Wednesday evening she jumped up onto my railroad, and sat next to the mainline. There was still enough space to run a train past, so I put on an A-B-A lashup of Hi-F drive diesels. Custom painted Warbonnet units. The motors make a fair bit of noise, and I wanted to scare her off so she wouldn't climb onto the railroad again.

Well I throttled up, and ran the diesels past her. Instead of getting scared and bolting, she knocked the three units off the rails, and camped out further from the tracks. I've attached a picture of the aftermath.

Now today I am in my bedroom working on a small N Scale layout there, and heard a loud thump in the living room. There was Loki on the railroad again, and on the floor was a Penn-Line K-4. No damage to the cast boiler, but the left side valve gear and valve gear hanger, were both seriously damaged. Of course, Loki gives me her best 'cute' look. Thankfully the hobby shop owner (Also a cat owner) understood and thinks he might have a spare set from a dead engine.

Cats. Got to love them!

-Steve Neubaum



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.145/2626 - Release Date: 01/16/10 07:35:00

Group: vintageHO Message: 12939 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat [1 Attachment]
With the addition of the newest trio I now have 9.  Moochie, Petunia, Jane, Fussy, Jeffro, Pauline, Minnie, Junior and Spot.  I had to learn to park the locos in places where they won't hit the floor, if the herd does decide to play trains.
Bowser MIGHT still have repair parts for that loco but better find out quick.
Bill
Group: vintageHO Message: 12940 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
I had a cat named Annie, who passed away in April 2008. I had her since I was maybe nine years old. At the time I had Lionel trains, and Annie started sleeping in the tunnel.

Well, one day I had an express engine running with a few coaches. Got to the tunnel, and the heavy die cast Lionel steamer (Running at express speed), came to a sudden stop, and out the other portal, came Annie. Seems the engine got her square in the backside.

That was the last time she ever slept in the tunnel!

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 1/16/10, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Beware the Cat
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 1:56 PM

 

The late layout-planning guru John Armstrong's family were cat people.  When I was there in the mid sixties one--named "Stephanie Jane"--was a railfan cat. We had to be sure that the door to the basement was latched so that she could not get down to the layout.  She would walk the tracks (O Gauge--and I don't know how she avoided getting zapped by the outside third rail)--and at times she would nap in one of the tunnels
 
As a teenager my brother and I had a room over the garage.  I had my HO layout there.  A favorite model was the Athearn die-cast crane. Those who have them know what a P.I.T.A. it was to rig the boom and hooks.  A neighbor's cat liked to come up and visit the layout--he would always knock over the crane, necessitating re-stringing all that thread.    gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:24 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Beware the Cat [1 Attachment]

Group,

Recently I got a new cat. She is a Siamese, named by the shelter I got her from. The shelter named her Loki. Now, go look up Norse Gods. Loki was, in mythology, the god of mischief.

So far, as far as my railroad is concerned, she has more than lived up to the name.

I got her this past Monday. Wednesday evening she jumped up onto my railroad, and sat next to the mainline. There was still enough space to run a train past, so I put on an A-B-A lashup of Hi-F drive diesels. Custom painted Warbonnet units. The motors make a fair bit of noise, and I wanted to scare her off so she wouldn't climb onto the railroad again.

Well I throttled up, and ran the diesels past her. Instead of getting scared and bolting, she knocked the three units off the rails, and camped out further from the tracks. I've attached a picture of the aftermath.

Now today I am in my bedroom working on a small N Scale layout there, and heard a loud thump in the living room. There was Loki on the railroad again, and on the floor was a Penn-Line K-4. No damage to the cast boiler, but the left side valve gear and valve gear hanger, were both seriously damaged. Of course, Loki gives me her best 'cute' look. Thankfully the hobby shop owner (Also a cat owner) understood and thinks he might have a spare set from a dead engine.

Cats. Got to love them!

-Steve Neubaum



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.145/2626 - Release Date: 01/16/10 07:35:00

Group: vintageHO Message: 12941 From: Garry Spear Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: FS: OSCAR PIKER Plus
Tom, Thanks for your interest, but I have already sold these two items.  The Oscar & Piker kits are all that's left.

Garry Spear

On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Thomas Parsons <ho6471trains@...> wrote:
 

I would like to purchase the two 0-4-0's if they are still available. Zip is 92505     Tom Parsons

--- On Fri, 1/15/10, Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> wrote:

From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] FS: OSCAR PIKER Plus
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 15, 2010, 5:14 PM


 
Offering:

Walthers OSCAR & PIKER Complete Kits In OBs - $25
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S887a.jpg
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S887b.jpg

Riviarossi B&O 0-4-0 L&T $10 Note broken Tender step - Running
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S888a.jpg
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S888b.jpg

New One Metal 0-4-0 Engine Only $10 - not running
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S888c.jpg
http://dgstrains. fileave.com/ S888d.jpg

Multi-Item purchases will be discounted. Shipping will added. All
prices (and shipping) are negotiable.

Garry Spear


Group: vintageHO Message: 12942 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat [1 Attachment]
I've also had cats for many years.

I've had similar problems with cats and train layouts. I soon figured
out that the cat wanted a good spot to watch everything from. So I set-
up a tall stool that I added a larger square 'seat' to, and tacked
down a new, comfy sofa pillow to that.

That solved the problem, the cat would settle into the Cat Chair,
watch me, watch the action on the layout, and settle into sound cat-
naps at his whim.

I did much the same in the computer room with some always empty
shelves and something comfortable for him to settle into. Since it was
in the days of CRT's, I would often have a cat snoozing on top of a
19" monitor. You ever try to use a computer as a sleeping cat paw
drapes over the edge of the screen or chases the on-screen pointer???

It's time for me to get another cat after being without one for a
while, and I'll be doing about the same for the new cat. It's a
combination of accommodating the Cat's wants and keeping him within
certain bounds and limits.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 16, 2010, at 1:24 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:

> [Attachment(s) from Stephen Neubaum included below]
>
> Group,
>
> Recently I got a new cat. She is a Siamese, named by the shelter I
> got her from. The shelter named her Loki. Now, go look up Norse
> Gods. Loki was, in mythology, the god of mischief.
>
> So far, as far as my railroad is concerned, she has more than lived
> up to the name.
>
> I got her this past Monday. Wednesday evening she jumped up onto my
> railroad, and sat next to the mainline. There was still enough space
> to run a train past, so I put on an A-B-A lashup of Hi-F drive
> diesels. Custom painted Warbonnet units. The motors make a fair bit
> of noise, and I wanted to scare her off so she wouldn't climb onto
> the railroad again.
>
> Well I throttled up, and ran the diesels past her. Instead of
> getting scared and bolting, she knocked the three units off the
> rails, and camped out further from the tracks. I've attached a
> picture of the aftermath.
>
> Now today I am in my bedroom working on a small N Scale layout
> there, and heard a loud thump in the living room. There was Loki on
> the railroad again, and on the floor was a Penn-Line K-4. No damage
> to the cast boiler, but the left side valve gear and valve gear
> hanger, were both seriously damaged. Of course, Loki gives me her
> best 'cute' look. Thankfully the hobby shop owner (Also a cat owner)
> understood and thinks he might have a spare set from a dead engine.
>
> Cats. Got to love them!
>
> -Steve Neubaum
Group: vintageHO Message: 12943 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Not a cat--but one evening when I was still in Marina (Monterey) I came home
about 10:30 PM and saw a skunk walking up the track of my garden railway.
couldn't get to a camera without disturbing it--so no picture--but after
that I always made sure the tunnels were clear before starting to run
trains. gj

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Beware the Cat


> I've also had cats for many years.
>
> I've had similar problems with cats and train layouts. I soon figured
> out that the cat wanted a good spot to watch everything from. So I set-
> up a tall stool that I added a larger square 'seat' to, and tacked
> down a new, comfy sofa pillow to that.
>
> That solved the problem, the cat would settle into the Cat Chair,
> watch me, watch the action on the layout, and settle into sound cat-
> naps at his whim.
>
> I did much the same in the computer room with some always empty
> shelves and something comfortable for him to settle into. Since it was
> in the days of CRT's, I would often have a cat snoozing on top of a
> 19" monitor. You ever try to use a computer as a sleeping cat paw
> drapes over the edge of the screen or chases the on-screen pointer???
>
> It's time for me to get another cat after being without one for a
> while, and I'll be doing about the same for the new cat. It's a
> combination of accommodating the Cat's wants and keeping him within
> certain bounds and limits.
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi
>
> On Jan 16, 2010, at 1:24 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
>
>> [Attachment(s) from Stephen Neubaum included below]
>>
>> Group,
>>
>> Recently I got a new cat. She is a Siamese, named by the shelter I
>> got her from. The shelter named her Loki. Now, go look up Norse
>> Gods. Loki was, in mythology, the god of mischief.
>>
>> So far, as far as my railroad is concerned, she has more than lived
>> up to the name.
>>
>> I got her this past Monday. Wednesday evening she jumped up onto my
>> railroad, and sat next to the mainline. There was still enough space
>> to run a train past, so I put on an A-B-A lashup of Hi-F drive
>> diesels. Custom painted Warbonnet units. The motors make a fair bit
>> of noise, and I wanted to scare her off so she wouldn't climb onto
>> the railroad again.
>>
>> Well I throttled up, and ran the diesels past her. Instead of
>> getting scared and bolting, she knocked the three units off the
>> rails, and camped out further from the tracks. I've attached a
>> picture of the aftermath.
>>
>> Now today I am in my bedroom working on a small N Scale layout
>> there, and heard a loud thump in the living room. There was Loki on
>> the railroad again, and on the floor was a Penn-Line K-4. No damage
>> to the cast boiler, but the left side valve gear and valve gear
>> hanger, were both seriously damaged. Of course, Loki gives me her
>> best 'cute' look. Thankfully the hobby shop owner (Also a cat owner)
>> understood and thinks he might have a spare set from a dead engine.
>>
>> Cats. Got to love them!
>>
>> -Steve Neubaum
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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07:35:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 12944 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Our first owner, Napoleon, used to like to sleep on the layout right on top
of a crossover. Any time I wanted to run I had to throw the turnout
underneath him a couple time to make him move.

Now that I have trolley overhead up, the basement is strictly verboten.

Don
Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Beware the Cat


The late layout-planning guru John Armstrong's family were cat people. When
I was there in the mid sixties one--named "Stephanie Jane"--was a railfan
cat. We had to be sure that the door to the basement was latched so that she
could not get down to the layout. She would walk the tracks (O Gauge--and I
don't know how she avoided getting zapped by the outside third rail)--and at
times she would nap in one of the tunnels

As a teenager my brother and I had a room over the garage. I had my HO
layout there. A favorite model was the Athearn die-cast crane. Those who
have them know what a P.I.T.A. it was to rig the boom and hooks. A
neighbor's cat liked to come up and visit the layout--he would always knock
over the crane, necessitating re-stringing all that thread. gj
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Neubaum
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 11:24 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Beware the Cat [1 Attachment]


[Attachment(s) from Stephen Neubaum included below]

Group,

Recently I got a new cat. She is a Siamese, named by the shelter I
got her from. The shelter named her Loki. Now, go look up Norse Gods. Loki
was, in mythology, the god of mischief.

So far, as far as my railroad is concerned, she has more than lived
up to the name.

I got her this past Monday. Wednesday evening she jumped up onto my
railroad, and sat next to the mainline. There was still enough space to run
a train past, so I put on an A-B-A lashup of Hi-F drive diesels. Custom
painted Warbonnet units. The motors make a fair bit of noise, and I wanted
to scare her off so she wouldn't climb onto the railroad again.

Well I throttled up, and ran the diesels past her. Instead of
getting scared and bolting, she knocked the three units off the rails, and
camped out further from the tracks. I've attached a picture of the
aftermath.

Now today I am in my bedroom working on a small N Scale layout
there, and heard a loud thump in the living room. There was Loki on the
railroad again, and on the floor was a Penn-Line K-4. No damage to the cast
boiler, but the left side valve gear and valve gear hanger, were both
seriously damaged. Of course, Loki gives me her best 'cute' look. Thankfully
the hobby shop owner (Also a cat owner) understood and thinks he might have
a spare set from a dead engine.

Cats. Got to love them!

-Steve Neubaum



Attachment(s) from Stephen Neubaum

1 of 1 Photo(s)

loki_derail.jpg




------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.145/2626 - Release Date:
01/16/10 07:35:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 12945 From: glutrain Date: 1/16/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
As I have built and rebuilt my layout over the years, we have had any number of cats take up residence with the usual amount of monster mash antics, as well as frequent loss of HO sized people to purry, furry predators. I have long favored resuse of native materials ; local gravel,twigs and mosses for trees , etc.Big error in pursuit of carrying this philosophy out to its logical extreme.Never under estimate the attractiveness of driveway gravel mixed with fresh from the bag kitty litter. Prior to the arrival of the feline member of the household, this mixture made a nice looking rockery/rip rap to support an embankment. The layout recovered, but only after extended physical therapy. Naturally,my dear bride took the side of the cat, so I conceded defeat before running the risk of losing railroad real estate.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12946 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/17/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Yes.....

Loki decided a paper and wood mail car on a siding made for a very attractive litter box for herself.

The mess has been cleaned off the car, but as it will never be the same, I am stripping trucks, couplers, and any other useful hardware before scrapping it. Might get four or six ventilators off the roof, and most of the brake hardware.

Gotta love those cats just the same!

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 1/16/10, glutrain <glutrain@...> wrote:

From: glutrain <glutrain@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Beware the Cat
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 11:43 PM

 


As I have built and rebuilt my layout over the years, we have had any number of cats take up residence with the usual amount of monster mash antics, as well as frequent loss of HO sized people to purry, furry predators. I have long favored resuse of native materials ; local gravel,twigs and mosses for trees , etc.Big error in pursuit of carrying this philosophy out to its logical extreme.Never under estimate the attractiveness of driveway gravel mixed with fresh from the bag kitty litter. Prior to the arrival of the feline member of the household, this mixture made a nice looking rockery/rip rap to support an embankment. The layout recovered, but only after extended physical therapy. Naturally,my dear bride took the side of the cat, so I conceded defeat before running the risk of losing railroad real estate.

Group: vintageHO Message: 12947 From: Fred Stevens K2FRD Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
I've been on the road as fulltime RVer since 2003, have had a covered outdoor HO layout for over four years . My first cat died of cancer in 2006 (she loved my RR) and now my current 3 1/2 year old kitten (appropriately name Earthquake) lives up to her name by tromping all over my layout as if she were a tectonic plate.

Generally, I permit EQ to have the run of my layout and most of the time, she will watch the consists go by but every once in awhile, she'll decide the train is prey and will knock it over after which she gets yelled at and decides it's safer for her to go just sit and watch the trains (while comfortably ensconced in her bed) rather them chase them.

Life with model railroading is a compromise between wives, pets, girl friends, the climate elements, wild critters, and whole bunches of everything else which screw up our model operations if it attracts their attention. More recently, several bushy-tailed woodrats (Neotoma spp aka "packrats") decided that my orange-coated RR power cord looked tasty. Despite the indoor PCB (mothballs), the packrats decided PCB would not keep it away and the power cable look good enough tfor them to take the chance. They fought the Law, and I won.

In my experience, a kitty on the table is far less harmful than a mohave rattlesnake which might also think there might be supper on the table. Some six years ago, a mohave tried to take over my site. I no longer kill if I don't have to, so I managed to pick it up, put it in a bucket, and moved it five miles away. Kitten, rattlesnake, and I were were all pleased with the result. My outdoor HO layout has not been disturbed since then, cat notwithstanding; a little yelling goes a long way. :-) As result, I've not had to worry about critters on my early 1900s. Cat (Earthquake) has learned appropriate model RR protocols.

Fred Stevens
Currently in the SW AZ desert for the winter

At 8:38 AM +0000 18/1/10, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>\___________________________________________________
>1a. Re: Beware the Cat
> Posted by: "Stephen Neubaum" computersystemrebuild@... railwaymodeler
> Date: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:48 pm ((PST))
>
>Yes.....
>
>Loki decided a paper and wood mail car on a siding made for a very attractive litter box for herself.
>
>The mess has been cleaned off the car, but as it will never be the same, I am stripping trucks, couplers, and any other useful hardware before scrapping it. Might get four or six ventilators off the roof, and most of the brake hardware.
>
>Gotta love those cats just the same!
>
>-Steve Neubaum
Group: vintageHO Message: 12948 From: chianrsteele Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
They're right, there have never been any decals included in the LaBelle Passenger cars, and I've been building them since about 1964.

You want to get hold of Jim Wilhite jwilhite@... . Jim used to own LaBelle before I bought it and he is the current supplier of the decals that LaBelle now uses in their kits. Jim does business under the moniker of "Valley Car Works" He is reasonable and fast, and he probably has the decals on file.

Remember, that particular observation was painted in the Milwaukee Orange, Maroon and Black scheme at one time.

Rick Steele
Group: vintageHO Message: 12949 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Rick,
Thanks for the email address of Jim Wilhite, but my mail was returned as user unknown.
 
Art
 
In a message dated 1/18/2010 2:51:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rntsteele@... writes:
They're right, there have never been any decals included in the LaBelle Passenger cars, and I've been building them since about 1964.

You want to get hold of Jim Wilhite jwilhite@... . Jim used to own LaBelle before I bought it and he is the current supplier of the decals that LaBelle now uses in their kits. Jim does business under the moniker of "Valley Car Works" He is reasonable and fast, and he probably has the decals on file.

Remember, that particular observation was painted in the Milwaukee Orange, Maroon and Black scheme at one time.

Rick Steele




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Group: vintageHO Message: 12950 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
Have you surrendered to the cat's demand and now keep a litter box in
the train room ???

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 16, 2010, at 11:43 PM, glutrain wrote:

>
> As I have built and rebuilt my layout over the years, we have had
> any number of cats take up residence with the usual amount of
> monster mash antics, as well as frequent loss of HO sized people to
> purry, furry predators. I have long favored resuse of native
> materials ; local gravel,twigs and mosses for trees , etc.Big error
> in pursuit of carrying this philosophy out to its logical
> extreme.Never under estimate the attractiveness of driveway gravel
> mixed with fresh from the bag kitty litter. Prior to the arrival of
> the feline member of the household, this mixture made a nice looking
> rockery/rip rap to support an embankment. The layout recovered, but
> only after extended physical therapy. Naturally,my dear bride took
> the side of the cat, so I conceded defeat before running the risk of
> losing railroad real estate.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12951 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
luvprr@... wrote:
>
>
> Rick,
> Thanks for the email address of Jim Wilhite, but my mail was returned
> as user unknown.
>
> Art
>
I remember I have read somewhere , maybe half a year ago, that Jim has
closed his business.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 12952 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Athearn 0-6-0 photos needed, please
I am restoring this one......cleaned, paint as necessary (saved the "PENNSYLVANIA" on tender sides, even....).

But:

I have a bunch of loose bits, from Lord only knows where.

What does the bell look like?
What does the whistle look like?

Just so I know what I am looking for in this pile.

I see the whistle is a 90 degree unit, so that limits my search, and I see some shots on HOSeeker, but with my screen resolution, the bell and any bracket is difficult if not impossible to see.

Thanks.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12953 From: Wobbly913 Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
On the La Belle website is this blurb:
 

"The custom decal service formerly offered by

LaBelle through Jim Wilhite of Valley Car Shops has been

permanently discontinued. We regret that this service is no

longer available. The technology for the printers used to

make these decals has been purchased by a larger

conglomerate and discontinued by them. Technology is

marching bravely backward into the future!"
 
 
Wobbly913


--- On Mon, 1/18/10, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:

From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: CM&StP decals
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 18, 2010, 1:56 PM

luvprr@... wrote:

>
> Rick,
> Thanks for the email address of Jim Wilhite, but my mail was returned
> as user unknown.

> Art
>
I remember I have read somewhere , maybe half a year ago, that Jim has
closed his business.

Gerold



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Group: vintageHO Message: 12954 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Wobbly913 wrote:
>
>
> On the La Belle website is this blurb:
>
>
> "The custom decal service formerly offered by
>
> LaBelle through Jim Wilhite of Valley Car Shops has been
>
> permanently discontinued. We regret that this service is no
>
> longer available. The technology for the printers used to
>
> make these decals has been purchased by a larger
>
> conglomerate and discontinued by them. Technology is
>
> marching bravely backward into the future!"
>
>
> Wobbly913
>
Does this relate to the Alps printer? Have heard long ago that its a
problem to get parts and colors for them.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 12955 From: jim heckard Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Athearn 0-6-0
Dave,
 
     Maybe these pictures of my Athearn 0-6-0 will help. Also look again at hoseeker at the drawing for the Athearn 0-4-2t Lil Monster which should be a little clearer.. It used the same bell part no 11952.
 
   What whistle are you talking about on the 0-6-0?
 
                                                      Jim H
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 12956 From: trainliker Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Beware the Cat
It's interesting to read about the plight of machines versus felines leading to derailments and such.

But it is also a little prototypical. After all, one engine part is called a "cow catcher".

Chuck Kinzer

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
>
> Have you surrendered to the cat's demand and now keep a litter box in
> the train room ???
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi
>
> On Jan 16, 2010, at 11:43 PM, glutrain wrote:
>
> >
> > As I have built and rebuilt my layout over the years, we have had
> > any number of cats take up residence with the usual amount of
> > monster mash antics, as well as frequent loss of HO sized people to
> > purry, furry predators. I have long favored resuse of native
> > materials ; local gravel,twigs and mosses for trees , etc.Big error
> > in pursuit of carrying this philosophy out to its logical
> > extreme.Never under estimate the attractiveness of driveway gravel
> > mixed with fresh from the bag kitty litter. Prior to the arrival of
> > the feline member of the household, this mixture made a nice looking
> > rockery/rip rap to support an embankment. The layout recovered, but
> > only after extended physical therapy. Naturally,my dear bride took
> > the side of the cat, so I conceded defeat before running the risk of
> > losing railroad real estate.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12957 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Those photos help.
One question......I knew the part number from HOSeeker, and it is NOT current in Athearn parts.....is the bell one piece, or does it "ring"?

On the side of the steam dome, engineer's side, is a small hole, like for a whistle.

Apparently added by a previous owner, eh?

Dave


> Dave,
>
> Maybe these pictures of my Athearn 0-6-0 will help. Also look again at hoseeker at the drawing for the Athearn 0-4-2t Lil Monster which should be a little clearer.. It used the same bell part no 11952.
>
> What whistle are you talking about on the 0-6-0?
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12958 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Would someone be kind enough to point me to some pics of these cars where the lettering is easy to see?

I could use some of these sets and I can make my own decals via Alps and laser printers and a sweet graphics program with very generous font sets. I tweak the closest font to be as best as possible.

Can someone please also advise me on the proper colors of the lettering.

thanks.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Jan 15, 2010, at 4:01 AM, luvprr@... wrote:



Hi, this is a long shot, but I need decals for the LaBelle kit of their 1900 observation car of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul railroad.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12959 From: jim heckard Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Dave,
 
        I doubt Athearn would have this bell listed today as the 0-6-0 was made around 1960. It was used on the 0-4-2t, 0-6-0 and 4-6-2 Pacific's from that period.  Bell was plastic,one piece which didn't move. I know nothing about the 0-6-0 having a whistle. Nothing I have has one and the drawings on hoseeker show none that I see. I'm thinking the one you have might have been added by a previous owner.
 
       I have a bell very similar in black plastic around here. I would mail one to you but it is so small I would have to put it in an envelope, protected as best I could. If you send an address off site to jimheck@... I will try to find one and send it.
 
                                                                                           Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:57 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-6-0

 


Those photos help.
One question.... ..I knew the part number from HOSeeker, and it is NOT current in Athearn parts.....is the bell one piece, or does it "ring"?

On the side of the steam dome, engineer's side, is a small hole, like for a whistle.

Apparently added by a previous owner, eh?

Dave

> Dave,
>
> Maybe these pictures of my Athearn 0-6-0 will help. Also look again at hoseeker at the drawing for the Athearn 0-4-2t Lil Monster which should be a little clearer.. It used the same bell part no 11952.
>
> What whistle are you talking about on the 0-6-0?
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 12960 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
True, but you never know.
Couple of years ago, my brother voiced that he really missed his Athearn Hustler.
So, I found him one.....and all the parts one would need to build one on the Athearn parts site.

Got the bits I needed, and he got a Christmas Present.

Dave


> Dave,
>
> I doubt Athearn would have this bell listed today as the 0-6-0 was made around 1960. It was used on the 0-4-2t, 0-6-0 and 4-6-2 Pacific's from that period. Bell was plastic,one piece which didn't move. I know nothing about the 0-6-0 having a whistle. Nothing I have has one and the drawings on hoseeker show none that I see. I'm thinking the one you have might have been added by a previous owner.
>
> I have a bell very similar in black plastic around here. I would mail one to you but it is so small I would have to put it in an envelope, protected as best I could. If you send an address off site to jimheck@... I will try to find one and send it.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: trainsnwrcs
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 6:57 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-6-0
>
>
>
>
> Those photos help.
> One question......I knew the part number from HOSeeker, and it is NOT current in Athearn parts.....is the bell one piece, or does it "ring"?
>
> On the side of the steam dome, engineer's side, is a small hole, like for a whistle.
>
> Apparently added by a previous owner, eh?
>
> Dave
>
> > Dave,
> >
> > Maybe these pictures of my Athearn 0-6-0 will help. Also look again at hoseeker at the drawing for the Athearn 0-4-2t Lil Monster which should be a little clearer.. It used the same bell part no 11952.
> >
> > What whistle are you talking about on the 0-6-0?
> >
> > Jim H
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12961 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Couple of more questions, now that I inspect you photos more closely.
The handrails on the boiler----
Mine (4114 PRR) shows evidence of being cut off at the front.....slight bend, then "WHACK!
Looking at the HOSeeker instructions, it seems there was a 90 degree at the front, went down and fit into the cast in dogs at the lower sides of the smokebox just behind the front.

Yes?
No?

Also, is that unit heavily used?
My drivers are all still plated, yours are brass on 1 and 3.
For all I know, that's a variation, or a really good cleaning!

Fun.

Dave




> Dave,
>
> Maybe these pictures of my Athearn 0-6-0 will help. Also look again at hoseeker at the drawing for the Athearn 0-4-2t Lil Monster which should be a little clearer.. It used the same bell part no 11952.
>
> What whistle are you talking about on the 0-6-0?
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12962 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: And another thing I'm looking for......
I just picked up a set of Globe trucks, and driveshafts, have a motor, and shells.
Anybody got a spare old Globe (or Dual-Geared Athearn GEEP) frame?
I can dummy this up into an old HiF Athearn F-unit frame, but just thought I'd ask before I go through the process.

(I have a dual-geared Athearn Geep, figured, hey, to "spread the load" on pickups, I'd run a small plug between the two)

Thanks.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12963 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Athearn HiF parts still available
90565 LARGE INSULATOR, HI-F DRIVE
90566 SMALL INSULATOR, HI-F DRIVE
90506 WHEEL ASSY, 42 HI F (HUSTLER)
90508 RDC WHEEL ASSEMBLY
90509 SNOW PLOW WHEEL ASSY - HI F
90101 DRIVE BELTS (RUBBER BAND)

These are still on the Athearn parts list.
Two years or so ago, you could get motors, sideframes, wheels, couplers, and even cabs for Hustlers, and a whole lot of HiF parts.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 12964 From: jim heckard Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Athearn 0-6-0
Dave,
 
            You have pretty good eyes for detail. My Athearn 0-6-0 was salvaged by using parts from two to make one. They both were used.
 
  The first picture will show you the way the handrail should be. I used the better overall body on my engine but it did not have the handrail holders for the 90 degree bend hence the shortened handrails on my running engine. I had hoped to "add" the 2 missing holders and use the original full handrail.
 
  As for the drivers and wear as the second picture shows my extras. I can only assume that these engines were either used or the drivers cleaned off.  I believe you are right that the originals had a complete silver in color coating. I don't believe there would be two versions as far as the drivers surfaces.
 
                                                                    Jim H
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 12965 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Your handrail holders are, in fact, present, on photo 1.
And Photos 2 and 3.
They are little square parts cast into the boiler (smokebox, actually) with small vertical holes for the handrail, just above the extended line drawn from the top of the running boards, right butted up to the smokebox front.

Near as I can tell, you dropped the handrail into the boss, installed the cotter keys on the horizontal portion of the rail, and worked them down into the boiler going back.

Once in, bend over the tabs (without pulling the "knob" on the cotter key shank through).

I carefully re-worked mine to "repair" that knob, as several were collapsed.

Worked once, don't think I could do it again on these cotter keys.

Dave



> Dave,
>
> You have pretty good eyes for detail. My Athearn 0-6-0 was salvaged by using parts from two to make one. They both were used.
>
> The first picture will show you the way the handrail should be. I used the better overall body on my engine but it did not have the handrail holders for the 90 degree bend hence the shortened handrails on my running engine. I had hoped to "add" the 2 missing holders and use the original full handrail.
>
> As for the drivers and wear as the second picture shows my extras. I can only assume that these engines were either used or the drivers cleaned off. I believe you are right that the originals had a complete silver in color coating. I don't believe there would be two versions as far as the drivers surfaces.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12966 From: Askerberg Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Recent acquisitions
I have posted photos of two new acquisitions in the Photos section
under Al2's stuff. One is an unbuilt JC Silversides 70' Pennsy coach
kit. The other is a rather remarkable Mantua 8 Ball Mogul pulling a
train with an unidentified box car (help) and a nicely assembled
Labelle 50' open end coach with CV trucks also recently
acquired. The Mogul is remarkable for the enhancements very well
done by the builder. A brass capped stack and fluted domes have been
added, or at least I presume so. I have another one that has small
domes cast on the boiler. Perhaps this is an earlier version? I
believe this new one has a brass wrap boiler.. In any case, it is
quite nice and runs well.

Al Askerberg
Group: vintageHO Message: 12967 From: jim heckard Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
     Sorry Dave but the handrail holders for the 90 degree bend are missing from the first set of 3 pictures I sent. That is my running engine. 
 
     The next message of 2 pictures (picture 1 ) shows the holder with the rail in the holder on an entirely different boiler.
 
                                                                                     Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:58 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-6-0

 

Your handrail holders are, in fact, present, on photo 1.
And Photos 2 and 3.
They are little square parts cast into the boiler (smokebox, actually) with small vertical holes for the handrail, just above the extended line drawn from the top of the running boards, right butted up to the smokebox front.

Near as I can tell, you dropped the handrail into the boss, installed the cotter keys on the horizontal portion of the rail, and worked them down into the boiler going back.

Once in, bend over the tabs (without pulling the "knob" on the cotter key shank through).

I carefully re-worked mine to "repair" that knob, as several were collapsed.

Worked once, don't think I could do it again on these cotter keys.

Dave

> Dave,
>
> You have pretty good eyes for detail. My Athearn 0-6-0 was salvaged by using parts from two to make one. They both were used.
>
> The first picture will show you the way the handrail should be. I used the better overall body on my engine but it did not have the handrail holders for the 90 degree bend hence the shortened handrails on my running engine. I had hoped to "add" the 2 missing holders and use the original full handrail.
>
> As for the drivers and wear as the second picture shows my extras. I can only assume that these engines were either used or the drivers cleaned off. I believe you are right that the originals had a complete silver in color coating. I don't believe there would be two versions as far as the drivers surfaces.
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 12968 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Hmm.
Sure looks like them, from what I can see with the resolution.
On photo 3, what is right at the edge of the smokebox front, almost in line with the running board?
Not the washout above and behind it.


Looks like the shadow of the hole through the squarish boss I have on mine.

Dave


> Sorry Dave but the handrail holders for the 90 degree bend are missing from the first set of 3 pictures I sent. That is my running engine.
>
> The next message of 2 pictures (picture 1 ) shows the holder with the rail in the holder on an entirely different boiler.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: trainsnwrcs
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:58 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-6-0
>
>
>
> Your handrail holders are, in fact, present, on photo 1.
> And Photos 2 and 3.
> They are little square parts cast into the boiler (smokebox, actually) with small vertical holes for the handrail, just above the extended line drawn from the top of the running boards, right butted up to the smokebox front.
>
> Near as I can tell, you dropped the handrail into the boss, installed the cotter keys on the horizontal portion of the rail, and worked them down into the boiler going back.
>
> Once in, bend over the tabs (without pulling the "knob" on the cotter key shank through).
>
> I carefully re-worked mine to "repair" that knob, as several were collapsed.
>
> Worked once, don't think I could do it again on these cotter keys.
>
> Dave
>
> > Dave,
> >
> > You have pretty good eyes for detail. My Athearn 0-6-0 was salvaged by using parts from two to make one. They both were used.
> >
> > The first picture will show you the way the handrail should be. I used the better overall body on my engine but it did not have the handrail holders for the 90 degree bend hence the shortened handrails on my running engine. I had hoped to "add" the 2 missing holders and use the original full handrail.
> >
> > As for the drivers and wear as the second picture shows my extras. I can only assume that these engines were either used or the drivers cleaned off. I believe you are right that the originals had a complete silver in color coating. I don't believe there would be two versions as far as the drivers surfaces.
> >
> > Jim H
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12969 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0 [3 Attachments]
Hi Jim,

Do my eyes deceive me, or is that a Gilbert coupler on the front of the engine?

Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 6:48 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
 
[Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]

Dave,
 
     Maybe these pictures of my Athearn 0-6-0 will help. Also look again at hoseeker at the drawing for the Athearn 0-4-2t Lil Monster which should be a little clearer.. It used the same bell part no 11952.
 
   What whistle are you talking about on the 0-6-0?
 
                                                      Jim H



--
Regards,
Walter
Group: vintageHO Message: 12970 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/18/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Finally figured out how to blow up the photos and keep some semblance of clarity.
Photo 2 shows the support broken through the hole, but, easy fix, make new wire, drill a hole just below the "mount", bend another 90 and insert it into the smokebox below the mount.

Photo 3, still hard to say from what I can see.
Looks like it's there, but I believe you.
If not, same fix.
Little engine black on a brush to hide the work.

Dave


> Sorry Dave but the handrail holders for the 90 degree bend are missing from the first set of 3 pictures I sent. That is my running engine.
>
> The next message of 2 pictures (picture 1 ) shows the holder with the rail in the holder on an entirely different boiler.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: trainsnwrcs
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:58 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn 0-6-0
>
>
>
> Your handrail holders are, in fact, present, on photo 1.
> And Photos 2 and 3.
> They are little square parts cast into the boiler (smokebox, actually) with small vertical holes for the handrail, just above the extended line drawn from the top of the running boards, right butted up to the smokebox front.
>
> Near as I can tell, you dropped the handrail into the boss, installed the cotter keys on the horizontal portion of the rail, and worked them down into the boiler going back.
>
> Once in, bend over the tabs (without pulling the "knob" on the cotter key shank through).
>
> I carefully re-worked mine to "repair" that knob, as several were collapsed.
>
> Worked once, don't think I could do it again on these cotter keys.
>
> Dave
>
> > Dave,
> >
> > You have pretty good eyes for detail. My Athearn 0-6-0 was salvaged by using parts from two to make one. They both were used.
> >
> > The first picture will show you the way the handrail should be. I used the better overall body on my engine but it did not have the handrail holders for the 90 degree bend hence the shortened handrails on my running engine. I had hoped to "add" the 2 missing holders and use the original full handrail.
> >
> > As for the drivers and wear as the second picture shows my extras. I can only assume that these engines were either used or the drivers cleaned off. I believe you are right that the originals had a complete silver in color coating. I don't believe there would be two versions as far as the drivers surfaces.
> >
> > Jim H
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12971 From: John Hagen Date: 1/19/2010
Subject: Re: CM
Re: [vintageHO] Re: CM

Some good photos would be necessary. Do not have to be straight on, just good enough to show the font and location/layout on the car.

I believe this car would use a modified railroad roman font however if not, I can (and will) design a font to match the original. I have just done so for the font as used during the 20's - 30's and thereabouts on the Milw.

Also the color. If it is a dulux gold I have a good one in my repertoire.

I have just received a brand new Alps MD 5500 printer last week to go along with my two functional (but very cantankerous) older models and should be able to print decals for the foreseeable future.

John Hagen
OBS-CALS

Group: vintageHO Message: 12972 From: jim heckard Date: 1/19/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
Hi Walter,
 
    No it is the normal Athearn plastic horn hook coupler. The picture has cut off  part that might make it look different.
 
                                                                                          Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 0-6-0

 

Hi Jim,

Do my eyes deceive me, or is that a Gilbert coupler on the front of the engine?

Regards,
Walter

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 6:48 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
 
[Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]

Dave,
 
     Maybe these pictures of my Athearn 0-6-0 will help. Also look again at hoseeker at the drawing for the Athearn 0-4-2t Lil Monster which should be a little clearer.. It used the same bell part no 11952.
 
   What whistle are you talking about on the 0-6-0?
 
                                                      Jim H



--
Regards,
Walter

Group: vintageHO Message: 12973 From: chianrsteele Date: 1/19/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
Hi Wobbly,

Thanks for quoting my website to me as far as Jim Wilhite goes. I put that up when he was having trouble getting supplies.

I checked his web address and the CORRECT address is jwilhite1@...

Sorry about the mistake, that's what I get for trusting my ever aging memory.

I talked to Jim recently and he has a couple of the new MD5500 ALPS printers.

However, ALPS has announced the discontinuation of production of the ALPS printers as of next year, and the consumables by 2015, so stock up if you need them.

Rick
Group: vintageHO Message: 12974 From: John H Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "chianrsteele" <rntsteele@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Wobbly,
>
> Thanks for quoting my website to me as far as Jim Wilhite goes. I put that up when he was having trouble getting supplies.
>
> I checked his web address and the CORRECT address is jwilhite1@...
>
> Sorry about the mistake, that's what I get for trusting my ever aging memory.
>
> I talked to Jim recently and he has a couple of the new MD5500 ALPS printers.
>
> However, ALPS has announced the discontinuation of production of the ALPS printers as of next year, and the consumables by 2015, so stock up if you need them.
>
> Rick
>

Just for clarification, Alps will cease production of the MD 5500 (the last of the MD line) on the end of May this year, 2010. Supplies will continue for five additional years.

I certainly hope some other manufacturer will introduce a printer that can print white, do multiple layers without losing registration and can print in resolutions that are fine enough to be able to print lettering down to 1 point (or less) as the about fifteen-year-old Alps technology does. The maintaining of registration for multiple layers is really available now as both inkjet and laser printers that automatically print two sides have the mechanics and only need minor changes in their firmware/software to accomplish this. The hard part is convincing the printer makers that white ink is a necessary evil for home and small office users.

John Hagen
Group: vintageHO Message: 12975 From: Tom Date: 1/20/2010
Subject: Penn Line Crusader
Hi guys, I know that I asked this question a year or so ago, but some new members have joined. Still looking for a trailing truck for a Penn Line crusader if anyone has one they want to part with. Thanks, Tom
Group: vintageHO Message: 12976 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Hi folks,
I just saw the weirdest thing on eBay. I am very familiar with the Ambroid Watermelon Car, since I have built one. This one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-VINTAGE-AMBROID-K-3-WATERMELLON-CAR-KIT_W0QQitemZ270516402077QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item3efc08b79d
does not come with pre-painted and lettered side, but with DECALS!! Now, I know some (but not all) of the Northeastern versions of Ambroid cars came with decals, but I don't recall this one. In any case, this is NOT Northeastern, but an Ambroid K-3. Can anyone shed light on it? It must be very rare, because at this moment, it is up to $35.50 with 2 hours left.
Regards, Vic Bitleris
Group: vintageHO Message: 12977 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
I thought that Northeastern made the kits for Ambroid?? There may have been
some improvements by the time Ambroid did it as a part of the "One of 5000"
series. gj
----- Original Message -----
From: <bitlerisvj@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:08 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Watermelon Car


> Hi folks,
> I just saw the weirdest thing on eBay. I am very familiar with the
> Ambroid Watermelon Car, since I have built one. This one:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-VINTAGE-AMBROID-K-3-WATERMELLON-CAR-KIT_W0QQitemZ270516402077QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item3efc08b79d
> does not come with pre-painted and lettered side, but with DECALS!! Now,
> I know some (but not all) of the Northeastern versions of Ambroid cars
> came with decals, but I don't recall this one. In any case, this is NOT
> Northeastern, but an Ambroid K-3. Can anyone shed light on it? It must
> be very rare, because at this moment, it is up to $35.50 with 2 hours
> left.
> Regards, Vic Bitleris
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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07:33:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 12978 From: jbark76 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: CM&StP decals
There was mention that Walthers once made them. Someone on ebay has lots of old Walthers decals. You might try contacting northerncentralsupply on ebay to see if he has them.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12979 From: jbark76 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: And another thing I'm looking for......
I have a spare frame if you don't mind removing some old flaky black paint. I think it is Globe, the motor it has on it is the rectangular dicast type.
-Jeff-
Group: vintageHO Message: 12980 From: jbark76 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
I have both versions, both Ambroid K-3 Watermelon Car. The one with the decals is in a bright red box similar to what the caboose from the 1st 1 of 5000 series came in. (The watermelon car is not in either of the 1 of 5000 series.) The kit with decorated sides is in a blue box. The instructions are the same both stating that "the sides in this car kit have been painted with Floquil Boxcar Red". (The sides of the decal kit are unpainted.) My kit with decals doesn't have trucks. My kit with decorated sides has what I think are Ulrich Vulcan trucks. I don't know if they came this way originally. -Jeff-
Group: vintageHO Message: 12981 From: jim heckard Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: switch machines

 
       Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout ( hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank ( actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
 
     Any ideas.
 
                                               Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 12982 From: corv9 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout ( hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank ( actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
>
>

Jim,
I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but they will work with any other brand too.
http://www.micromark.com/BLUE-POINT-SWITCH-MACHINE-TURNOUT-CONTROLLER,8535.html
Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture knobs.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 12983 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines

Jim,

Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws?  That would be the easiest in your case.  To install under the table electric ones, you need a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar.  Since you have ballasted already, it could get messy.  What type are you thinking of switching to?

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of corv9
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
 

> Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout ( hidden )
switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank ( actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
>
>

Jim,
I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but they will work with any other brand too.
http://www.micromar k.com/BLUE- POINT-SWITCH- MACHINE-TURNOUT- CONTROLLER, 8535.html
Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture knobs.

Gerold

Group: vintageHO Message: 12984 From: jim heckard Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
     Chuck,
 
      Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held walk around control  ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.
 
        Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as I have the Atlas switch machines now
 
                                                                          Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

 

Jim,

Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws?  That would be the easiest in your case.  To install under the table electric ones, you need a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar.  Since you have ballasted already, it could get messy.  What type are you thinking of switching to?

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104


From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of corv9
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
 
> Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout ( hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank ( actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
>
>

Jim,
I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but they will work with any other brand too.
http://www.micromar k.com/BLUE- POINT-SWITCH- MACHINE-TURNOUT- CONTROLLER, 8535.html
Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture knobs.

Gerold

Group: vintageHO Message: 12985 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines

OK, that is better; you can run a brass tub from the top to the bottom about ½ inches to 1 inch from the track throw bar.  In the tube put a wire that you bend at the top to go into the hole in the track throw bar.  Underneath you put bend the wire with a small circle loop that you slip the switch machine actuator into and as it goes from side to side the top will move the same.  Look in an old Walthers catalog in the track section for “Earl R Eshleman” turnout linkage for an idea. Page 195 of the 1989 issue.  NJ International part 6003.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:23 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

 

 

     Chuck,

 

      Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held walk around control  ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.

 

        Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as I have the Atlas switch machines now

 

                                                                          Jim H

----- Original Message -----

From: Chuck Higdon

Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM

Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

 

 

Jim,

Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws?  That would be the easiest in your case.  To install under the table electric ones, you need a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar.  Since you have ballasted already, it could get messy.  What type are you thinking of switching to?

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104


From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of corv9
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
 
> Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout ( hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank ( actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
>
>

Jim,
I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but they will work with any other brand too.
http://www.micromar k.com/BLUE- POINT-SWITCH- MACHINE-TURNOUT- CONTROLLER, 8535.html
Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture knobs.

Gerold

Group: vintageHO Message: 12986 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Why not mount the Atlas vertically to a piece of angle iron, milling out the roadbed to allow the armature of the machine to connect with a hole in the centre of the throwbar?

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Chuck,
>
> Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held walk around control ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.
>
> Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as I have the Atlas switch machines now
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chuck Higdon
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
>
>
>
> Jim,
>
> Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws? That would be the easiest in your case. To install under the table electric ones, you need a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar. Since you have ballasted already, it could get messy. What type are you thinking of switching to?
>
>
>
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of corv9
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
>
> > Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout ( hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank ( actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
> >
> >
>
> Jim,
> I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but they will work with any other brand too.
> http://www.micromark.com/BLUE-POINT-SWITCH-MACHINE-TURNOUT-CONTROLLER,8535.html
> Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
> used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture knobs.
>
> Gerold
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12987 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Atlas machines don't work in the vertical position. They don't have springs
to hold them one way or the other.

Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:47 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines


Why not mount the Atlas vertically to a piece of angle iron, milling out the
roadbed to allow the armature of the machine to connect with a hole in the
centre of the throwbar?

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Chuck,
>
> Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have
> some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held walk
> around control ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.
>
> Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas
> switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and
> design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I
> would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as
> I have the Atlas switch machines now
>
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chuck Higdon
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
>
>
>
> Jim,
>
> Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws? That would be the
> easiest in your case. To install under the table electric ones, you need
> a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar. Since you have
> ballasted already, it could get messy. What type are you thinking of
> switching to?
>
>
>
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of corv9
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
>
> > Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout (
> hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank (
> actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started
> fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items
> especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged
> new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
> >
> >
>
> Jim,
> I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but
> they will work with any other brand too.
>
> http://www.micromark.com/BLUE-POINT-SWITCH-MACHINE-TURNOUT-CONTROLLER,8535.html
> Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to
> wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them
> being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
> used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture
> knobs.
>
> Gerold
>




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Group: vintageHO Message: 12988 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
To the best of my Knowledge, Most Ambroid kits came with decals. The only
one I know of that was prepainted was the Unicel Reefer/Box. Both 1 of 5000
series were made by Northeastern, and ALL were reissued by Northeastern
under their own name thought the 70's. It wasn't until the "Heritage" line
that Ambroid was made by Quality Craft. (Who also reissued many of those
too).

I do believe the Watermelon car WAS one of the earliest 1 of 5000's.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: <bitlerisvj@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:08 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Watermelon Car


> Hi folks,
> I just saw the weirdest thing on eBay. I am very familiar with the
> Ambroid Watermelon Car, since I have built one. This one:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-VINTAGE-AMBROID-K-3-WATERMELLON-CAR-KIT_W0QQitemZ270516402077QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item3efc08b79d
> does not come with pre-painted and lettered side, but with DECALS!! Now,
> I know some (but not all) of the Northeastern versions of Ambroid cars
> came with decals, but I don't recall this one. In any case, this is NOT
> Northeastern, but an Ambroid K-3. Can anyone shed light on it? It must
> be very rare, because at this moment, it is up to $35.50 with 2 hours
> left.
> Regards, Vic Bitleris
Group: vintageHO Message: 12989 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Ah.
Mine are so old and sticky, I thought they stayed in that position.


>
> Why not mount the Atlas vertically to a piece of angle iron, milling out the roadbed to allow the armature of the machine to connect with a hole in the centre of the throwbar?
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
> >
> > Chuck,
> >
> > Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held walk around control ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.
> >
> > Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as I have the Atlas switch machines now
> >
> > Jim H
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Chuck Higdon
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
> > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws? That would be the easiest in your case. To install under the table electric ones, you need a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar. Since you have ballasted already, it could get messy. What type are you thinking of switching to?
> >
> >
> >
> > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of corv9
> > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
> >
> > > Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout ( hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank ( actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Jim,
> > I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but they will work with any other brand too.
> > http://www.micromark.com/BLUE-POINT-SWITCH-MACHINE-TURNOUT-CONTROLLER,8535.html
> > Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
> > used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture knobs.
> >
> > Gerold
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12990 From: John Barlow Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Folks,
 
Delayed as this email is, wasn't the "watermelon car" the ACL "ventilated reefer" kit?
 
John W. Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
 

--- On Sat, 1/23/10, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ambroid Watermelon Car
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 23, 2010, 9:07 PM

 
To the best of my Knowledge, Most Ambroid kits came with decals. The only
one I know of that was prepainted was the Unicel Reefer/Box. Both 1 of 5000
series were made by Northeastern, and ALL were reissued by Northeastern
under their own name thought the 70's. It wasn't until the "Heritage" line
that Ambroid was made by Quality Craft. (Who also reissued many of those
too).

I do believe the Watermelon car WAS one of the earliest 1 of 5000's.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: <bitlerisvj@hotmail. com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 12:08 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Watermelon Car

> Hi folks,
> I just saw the weirdest thing on eBay. I am very familiar with the
> Ambroid Watermelon Car, since I have built one. This one:
> http://cgi.ebay. com/RARE- VINTAGE-AMBROID- K-3-WATERMELLON- CAR-KIT_W0QQitem Z270516402077QQc mdZViewItemQQptZ Model_RR_ Trains?hash= item3efc08b79d
> does not come with pre-painted and lettered side, but with DECALS!! Now,
> I know some (but not all) of the Northeastern versions of Ambroid cars
> came with decals, but I don't recall this one. In any case, this is NOT
> Northeastern, but an Ambroid K-3. Can anyone shed light on it? It must
> be very rare, because at this moment, it is up to $35.50 with 2 hours
> left.
> Regards, Vic Bitleris


Group: vintageHO Message: 12991 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: What have you been up to/Tru-Scale/Chris...

Hi Gang:

Well, call my reply a bit delayed, (since thread last November !)

Chris, Mike and all, since my last post on Tru-Scale and the especially appreciated commentary by Chris, I have been diligently trying to acquire some additional Tru-Scale track.  I have finally corralled two circles of 18" radius, one circle of 22", (missing one section), and a very nice circle of 28".  Also a few pieces of straight and a double crossover that needs help. 

I have about 3 pieces of Tru-Scale I worked very hard to buy as a grade-school kid with minuscule weekly allowance.  Way back then I drooled over the double crossovers knowing full well I'd never have one.  Then, as now, I simply thought Tru-Scale Ready Track was just beautiful right out of the box.  While realizing it is not prototypical having a, "wood," appearance between the, "ties," still it is almost a work of manufacturing art to me. 

So now I am somewhat prepared with track.  Almost all in brass.  I cannot ever build anything like Chris is doing.  All I can hope for and really want is a couple of nice ovals, (even on all flat surface), and 2 or 3 of Tru-Scale's, "nifty," items like crossovers to watch and see trains run on. 

To match into a double crossover I evidently need, in addition to my 18" circle,  a circle of 20", which I do not have.  If someone knows more about matching a double oval with crossovers, (radius requirements), please comment.  Other than one missing circle and a couple more nifty items, I think I am well armed for my modest desires.

After the helpful dialogue a while back, I thought I'd better present a progress report.

Cheers,
Dennis Thompson
Odessa/Ritzville, E WA state




At 05:04 PM 11/28/2009, you wrote:
[ Attachment(s) from Chris B included below]

Dennis, thanks, especially since the reason I'm going this route is because -
after years of reading and trying to finish models or scenery so it looks like the magazines,
I'm ready to accept that I'll probably never be able to do scenery or paint engines the way the folks do that can really make it look real;


(snip) on to Tru-Scale discussion...............
Group: vintageHO Message: 12992 From: Russ Shiel Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
John, Don...I sent the build sheet on the Ambroid K-3 ACL ventilated boxcar, aka 'watermelon car' to Larry at HO-Seeker. Interesting to see that there were variations...too late to put in a bid, but beyond the meagre budget anyway! It wasn't in either of the 1:5000 series. Chrs! Russ
 

 


Yahoo!7: Catch-up on your favourite Channel 7 TV shows easily, legally, and for free at PLUS7. Check it out.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12993 From: jbark76 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
I added pictures of both the kits and 3 boxes in the jbark76 folder.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12994 From: jbark76 Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 0-6-0
I've added pictures of my 060 project engine and tender in the jbark76 folder.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12995 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
I've been mounting Switch-master motors on our turnouts that are already
installed and ballasted. The only hole that needs to be drilled is the one
for the wire throw and it is the diameter of the wire ... no large hole and
no need to remove the turnout.

Steve W.
www.prrh.org
www.marx-trains.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines


Chuck,

Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have
some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held walk
around control ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.

Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas switch
machines I already have and mount them under the platform and design a way
to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I would have to
use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as I have the Atlas
switch machines now

Jim
H
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Higdon
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines




Jim,

Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws? That would be the
easiest in your case. To install under the table electric ones, you need a
½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar. Since you have ballasted
already, it could get messy. What type are you thinking of switching to?



Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of corv9
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:

> Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout ( hidden )
switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank ( actually the
railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started fooling around
just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items especially after
being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged new layout 20' x
12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
>
>

Jim,
I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but
they will work with any other brand too.
http://www.micromark.com/BLUE-POINT-SWITCH-MACHINE-TURNOUT-CONTROLLER,8535.html
Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to wire
electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them being
oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture
knobs.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 12996 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
The Atlas machines can be glued to the underside of switch. A tab with hole
is glued to the underside of the throwbar. The roadbed is cut out to have
the switch machine drop in. Works well if the switch isn't already ballasted
in. The switch can't be thrown manually, but is cheap to do since it uses
the machine that you already have.

Steve W.
www.prrh.org
www.marx-trains.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines


> Atlas machines don't work in the vertical position. They don't have
> springs
> to hold them one way or the other.
>
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:47 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
>
> Why not mount the Atlas vertically to a piece of angle iron, milling out
> the
> roadbed to allow the armature of the machine to connect with a hole in the
> centre of the throwbar?
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have
>> some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held
>> walk
>> around control ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.
>>
>> Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas
>> switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and
>> design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I
>> would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as
>> I have the Atlas switch machines now
>>
>>
>> Jim H
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Chuck Higdon
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
>> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws? That would be the
>> easiest in your case. To install under the table electric ones, you need
>> a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar. Since you have
>> ballasted already, it could get messy. What type are you thinking of
>> switching to?
>>
>>
>>
>> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
>> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
>> Behalf Of corv9
>> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>>
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
>>
>> > Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout (
>> hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank (
>> actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started
>> fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items
>> especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged
>> new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Jim,
>> I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but
>> they will work with any other brand too.
>>
>> http://www.micromark.com/BLUE-POINT-SWITCH-MACHINE-TURNOUT-CONTROLLER,8535.html
>> Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to
>> wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them
>> being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
>> used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture
>> knobs.
>>
>> Gerold
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 12997 From: Rick Jones Date: 1/23/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
Don Dellmann wrote:
> To the best of my Knowledge, Most Ambroid kits came with decals. The only
> one I know of that was prepainted was the Unicel Reefer/Box.

The Great Northern Express Reefer that I have, kit K4, has
pre-painted sides, as does the Western Union Material Car that I built
many decades ago.

--

Rick Jones

A man fell into an upholstery machine. He's fully recovered now.
Group: vintageHO Message: 12998 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Ambroid Watermelon Car
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ambroid Watermelon Car


> Don Dellmann wrote:
>> To the best of my Knowledge, Most Ambroid kits came with decals. The only
>> one I know of that was prepainted was the Unicel Reefer/Box.
>
> The Great Northern Express Reefer that I have, kit K4, has
> pre-painted sides, as does the Western Union Material Car that I built
> many decades ago.
>
> --
>
> Rick Jones
>
> A man fell into an upholstery machine. He's fully recovered now.

There were probably others. In fact, now that I think of it the Vinegar tank
car had painted tanks.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
Group: vintageHO Message: 12999 From: jim heckard Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
   Don,
 
    If I use the Atlas switch machines I have I didn't intend to mount them vertical. I was hoping and assuming I would mount the upside down and horizontal under the layout platform. Now it is possible they might not work good upside down. Guess I'll find that out if I try that route.
 
                                                                               Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

 

Atlas machines don't work in the vertical position. They don't have springs
to hold them one way or the other.

Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:47 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

Why not mount the Atlas vertically to a piece of angle iron, milling out the
roadbed to allow the armature of the machine to connect with a hole in the
centre of the throwbar?

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> Chuck,
>
> Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have
> some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held walk
> around control ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.
>
> Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas
> switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and
> design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I
> would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as
> I have the Atlas switch machines now
>
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chuck Higdon
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
>
>
>
> Jim,
>
> Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws? That would be the
> easiest in your case. To install under the table electric ones, you need
> a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar. Since you have
> ballasted already, it could get messy. What type are you thinking of
> switching to?
>
>
>
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
> http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On
> Behalf Of corv9
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
>
> > Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout (
> hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank (
> actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started
> fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items
> especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged
> new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
> >
> >
>
> Jim,
> I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but
> they will work with any other brand too.
>
> http://www.micromar k.com/BLUE- POINT-SWITCH- MACHINE-TURNOUT- CONTROLLER, 8535.html
> Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to
> wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them
> being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
> used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture
> knobs.
>
> Gerold
>

------------ --------- --------- ------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: vintageHO Message: 13000 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines

Hi Jim,

They will work upside down.  They just have to be horizontal, as the core of the solenoid just sits once the power is off.  If you tip it to vertical, you will feel, hear and see it slide around 45 degrees in the tip.

 

I have attached photos I took this morning of the new sections installed.  Just have the gate and some small sections to go.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:26 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

 

 

   Don,

 

    If I use the Atlas switch machines I have I didn't intend to mount them vertical. I was hoping and assuming I would mount the upside down and horizontal under the layout platform. Now it is possible they might not work good upside down. Guess I'll find that out if I try that route.

 

                                                                               Jim H

----- Original Message -----

From: Don Dellmann

Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:51 PM

Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

 

 

Atlas machines don't work in the vertical position. They don't have springs
to hold them one way or the other.

Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:47 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

Why not mount the Atlas vertically to a piece of angle iron, milling out the
roadbed to allow the armature of the machine to connect with a hole in the
centre of the throwbar?

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> Chuck,
>
> Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have
> some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held walk
> around control ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.
>
> Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas
> switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and
> design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I
> would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as
> I have the Atlas switch machines now
>
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chuck Higdon
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
>
>
>
> Jim,
>
> Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws? That would be the
> easiest in your case. To install under the table electric ones, you need
> a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar. Since you have
> ballasted already, it could get messy. What type are you thinking of
> switching to?
>
>
>
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
> http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On
> Behalf Of corv9
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
>
> > Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout (
> hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank (
> actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started
> fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items
> especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged
> new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
> >
> >
>
> Jim,
> I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but
> they will work with any other brand too.
>
> http://www.micromar k.com/BLUE- POINT-SWITCH- MACHINE-TURNOUT- CONTROLLER, 8535.html
> Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to
> wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them
> being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
> used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture
> knobs.
>
> Gerold
>

------------ --------- --------- ------

Yahoo! Groups Links

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13001 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Someone made a bracket to do just that but you still need a large hole for the throw mechanism to protrude through. 
Don Staton in VA.
===============================================

jim heckard wrote:
 

     Chuck,
 
      Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held walk around control  ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.
 
        Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as I have the Atlas switch machines now
 
                                                                          Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

 

Jim,

Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws?  That would be the easiest in your case.  To install under the table electric ones, you need a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar.  Since you have ballasted already, it could get messy.  What type are you thinking of switching to?

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104


From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of corv9
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
 
> Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout ( hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank ( actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
>
>

Jim,
I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but they will work with any other brand too.
http://www.micromar k.com/BLUE- POINT-SWITCH- MACHINE-TURNOUT- CONTROLLER, 8535.html
Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture knobs.

Gerold

Group: vintageHO Message: 13002 From: jim heckard Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Switch Machimes
     
              Thanks to everyone for all the comments about switch machines especially the slow or quick snap types. I have to decide and get cost projections together so I can call a board meeting with the Chief Financial Officer (better known as the misses ) as to what funds are available for capital improvements.
 
      After wrecking her car if you don't hear from me for a while you know she is still not a happy camper concerning $$$$.
 
                                                Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13003 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Ambroid Kits
I have all of the 1 of 5000 kits and most of the others.  I have never looked in the box on some and was not aware that any had preprinted sides.  I am planning on building them all, and have a couple about ready for paint, just waiting on better weather.  
 
This web site has a good lsiting of Ambroid kits.  http://www.trainweb.org/ambroidkits/ambroid.htm  Use the pull down menu at the top of the page.
 
Kent Hurley
Kansas City, MO


Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO Message: 13004 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
Hi Jim H.,

I can report that the switch machines will work well upside down and horizontal. When my dad was helping me, well actually, buildig my modified version of the Boy's Life Magazine layout in the mid 1960's, we decided on hiding the switch machines underneath and they still work well ever since, about 45 years (very dry basement)! I am now back in the old family home where the layout has always been, considered my "test track layout" now!

All Atlas sectional code 100 brass track, and we happened to find a deal on the plastic housed True-Scale machines, very similar to Atlas, that they made at the time and one Atlas as well. Dad made mountaing brackets based upon a 1960's sketch in Model Railroader. The set up included a wood rectangular block, a simple bracket made of sheet aluminum and a flat brass arm with wire acuator set in a slot at one end, afixed to the bracket with a rivet. The hole in the roadbed was quite small, 1/4". Will try to find it. Someone did make a plastic bracket at one time to accomplish the same thing.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Don,
>
> If I use the Atlas switch machines I have I didn't intend to mount them vertical. I was hoping and assuming I would mount the upside down and horizontal under the layout platform. Now it is possible they might not work good upside down. Guess I'll find that out if I try that route.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Don Dellmann
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 10:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
>
>
> Atlas machines don't work in the vertical position. They don't have springs
> to hold them one way or the other.
>
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:47 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>
> Why not mount the Atlas vertically to a piece of angle iron, milling out the
> roadbed to allow the armature of the machine to connect with a hole in the
> centre of the throwbar?
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
> >
> > Chuck,
> >
> > Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I have
> > some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand held walk
> > around control ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.
> >
> > Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas
> > switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and
> > design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me as I
> > would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be cheap as
> > I have the Atlas switch machines now
> >
> >
> > Jim H
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Chuck Higdon
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
> > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws? That would be the
> > easiest in your case. To install under the table electric ones, you need
> > a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar. Since you have
> > ballasted already, it could get messy. What type are you thinking of
> > switching to?
> >
> >
> >
> > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
> > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
> > Behalf Of corv9
> > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
> >
> > > Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout (
> > hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank (
> > actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first started
> > fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my vintage items
> > especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has grown into a full fledged
> > new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide" all those Atlas switch machines.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Jim,
> > I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts, but
> > they will work with any other brand too.
> >
> > http://www.micromark.com/BLUE-POINT-SWITCH-MACHINE-TURNOUT-CONTROLLER,8535.html
> > Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy to
> > wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ... despite them
> > being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
> > used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome furniture
> > knobs.
> >
> > Gerold
> >
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13005 From: Michael Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Soldering track together?
What is the consensus on putting sectional track together? Does anyone solder the joints together or just use the connectors, or both?

Thanks

Michael Allman
Group: vintageHO Message: 13006 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Soldering track together?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael" <mgallman@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 6:33 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Soldering track together?


> What is the consensus on putting sectional track together? Does anyone
> solder the joints together or just use the connectors, or both?
>
> Thanks
>
> Michael Allman

I use flex track rather than sectional, but even so I use railjoiners and
solder every one.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
Group: vintageHO Message: 13007 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: switch machines
I think you're referring to the "Rix Rack". Rix is the same people that did
the magnetic uncoupling tool.

Don


----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines


> /Someone made a bracket to do just that but you still need a large hole
> for the throw mechanism to protrude through.
> Don Staton in VA.
> ===============================================
> /
> jim heckard wrote:
>>
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> Want something I can mount out of sight and automatic. While I
>> have some hand throw switches close to where I operate from ( no hand
>> held walk around control ). I'm to lazy to walk to the far switches.
>>
>> Had one suggestion from another train friend to use the Atlas
>> switch machines I already have and mount them under the platform and
>> design a way to attach them to the above switches. This intrigues me
>> as I would have to use my brain to come up with a way and it would be
>> cheap as I have the Atlas switch machines now
>>
>>
>> Jim H
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Chuck Higdon <mailto:vze5crrw1@...>
>> *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:42 PM
>> *Subject:* RE: [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> Can you use the Caboose Industries switch throws? That would be
>> the easiest in your case. To install under the table electric
>> ones, you need a ½ dia. hole for the wire to move the throw bar.
>> Since you have ballasted already, it could get messy. What type
>> are you thinking of switching to?
>>
>> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
>> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *corv9
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:25 PM
>> *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> *Subject:* [vintageHO] Re: switch machines
>>
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Can anyone recommend what would be the best under the layout (
>> hidden ) switch machines that are decent but won't break the bank
>> ( actually the railroad ). I had used Atlas switches when I first
>> started fooling around just having a 4' x 6' test track to run my
>> vintage items especially after being rebuilt. Now that it has
>> grown into a full fledged new layout 20' x 12' I want to "hide"
>> all those Atlas switch machines.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Jim,
>> I use plue point exclusively, with True Scale High Speed turnouts,
>> but they will work with any other brand too.
>>
>> http://www.micromark.com/BLUE-POINT-SWITCH-MACHINE-TURNOUT-CONTROLLER,8535.html
>>
>> <http://www.micromark.com/BLUE-POINT-SWITCH-MACHINE-TURNOUT-CONTROLLER,8535.html>
>> Have tried caboose industries switch stands previously ( too lazy
>> to wire electric switch machines...) but wasnt enthusiastic ...
>> despite them being oversize , still too small for my big fingers.
>> used 4mm gas welding rod for actuating, threaded for chrome
>> furniture knobs.
>>
>> Gerold
>>
>>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13008 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Mantua Couplers (Picture Attached)
Attachments :
Group,

I know I will probably get chastised for this picture, but I was thinking of this for a long time.

I remember a cartoon in Model Railroader Magazine, about a whole train running through an open drawspan, and the comment being 'look how those new couplers hold!'.

I think I have that beat now.

Of course this is for fun only.

-Steve Neubaum
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13009 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Couplers (Picture Attached)
Hey, Mantuas is what I am converting to.
Primarily because it upsets the local enemaray folks.

When you remove those, send them to me!

Dave


>
> Group,
>
> I know I will probably get chastised for this picture, but I was thinking of this for a long time.
>
> I remember a cartoon in Model Railroader Magazine, about a whole train running through an open drawspan, and the comment being 'look how those new couplers hold!'.
>
> I think I have that beat now.
>
> Of course this is for fun only.
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13010 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/24/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Couplers (Picture Attached) [1 Attachment]
looks like a string of sausages!   gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 10:01 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Couplers (Picture Attached) [1 Attachment]

Group,

I know I will probably get chastised for this picture, but I was thinking of this for a long time.

I remember a cartoon in Model Railroader Magazine, about a whole train running through an open drawspan, and the comment being 'look how those new couplers hold!'.

I think I have that beat now.

Of course this is for fun only.

-Steve Neubaum



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2643 - Release Date: 01/24/10 19:33:00

Group: vintageHO Message: 13011 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Couplers (Picture Attached)
Oh, don't get me wrong- I use Mantua couplers too! So no chance of me removing them. I was merely showing how well the hold!

In fact, I am trying to get my hands on MORE mantua couplers. I spoke to Don and Mike at Trainfest about it a bit.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Mon, 1/25/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Couplers (Picture Attached)
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 25, 2010, 12:10 AM

 


Hey, Mantuas is what I am converting to.
Primarily because it upsets the local enemaray folks.

When you remove those, send them to me!

Dave

>
> Group,
>
> I know I will probably get chastised for this picture, but I was thinking of this for a long time.
>
> I remember a cartoon in Model Railroader Magazine, about a whole train running through an open drawspan, and the comment being 'look how those new couplers hold!'.
>
> I think I have that beat now.
>
> Of course this is for fun only.
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13012 From: Karl Peters Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: BOYS LIFE Model Railroad
Dear Jim:
 
Was this the layout that appeared in a series from December 1958 to November 1961, or was this a different one?
 
 Karl Peters
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13013 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/25/2010
Subject: Re: BOYS LIFE Model Railroad
Hi Karl P.,

I was the one who mentioned the Boy's Life Model Railroad layout in the reply to Jim H.concerning under table mounted snap track switch machines. Yes, my layout was based on those articles you mentioned, the only change in trackage is that the "main line" was straightened near the station and made parallel with the table edge and a very long level siding constructed between that and the layout edge. I had loads of fun with it, essentially a folded dogbone design with plenty of sidings for switching. As I recall, informal operation sessions with a peddler freight usually took a full hour. I later built a narrow yard panel in place of the one they designed. My main mountain was caved in by the first family cat who liked to sleep in the upper level rock cut, so it needs that work done. I will post photos as soon as I get that new camera!

W Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Karl Peters <krlpeters@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Jim:
>  
> Was this the layout that appeared in a series from December 1958 to November 1961, or was this a different one?
>  
>  Karl Peters
>  
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13014 From: jim heckard Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Ebay item
All,
 
          Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item  number   190366450975  that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3  but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned  " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
 
   As an avid collector of vintage HO  including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
 
   Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
 
                                     Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13015 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay item
I looked the photos over very carefully.  It was definitely Varney including the early four wheel power truck.  I would suspect it was plated or painted.  I did not bid because it was only four wheel power.

Don Staton in VA
===================================================

jim heckard wrote:
 

All,
 
          Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item  number   190366450975  that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3  but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned  " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
 
   As an avid collector of vintage HO  including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
 
   Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13016 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)
Hi Jim,
 
It was not me. I would be surprised to see if it was brass. My bet is it is diecast and not brass, just painted gold.
 
With all that shine, it would be nearly impossible to check unless you actually stripped it off. If you scratch the diecast, the fresh scratch has a high gloss silver shine of it's own and would look gold too with the light reflecting off of the gold paint.
 
I should ave painted all my diecast gold....
 
;P
 
Take a look at this listing I purchased however. There are two actual cast brass shells in it that are complete mysteries to me.
 
 
250565385531
 
Thanks,
Sean


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 8:38:50 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay item

 

All,
 
          Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item  number   190366450975  that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3  but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned  " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
 
   As an avid collector of vintage HO  including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
 
   Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
 
                                     Jim H

Group: vintageHO Message: 13017 From: jim heckard Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

Sean,
 
    What two are you talking about The 2 diesel shells perhaps ???
 
                                                 Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:18 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

 

Hi Jim,
 
It was not me. I would be surprised to see if it was brass. My bet is it is diecast and not brass, just painted gold.
 
With all that shine, it would be nearly impossible to check unless you actually stripped it off. If you scratch the diecast, the fresh scratch has a high gloss silver shine of it's own and would look gold too with the light reflecting off of the gold paint.
 
I should ave painted all my diecast gold....
 
;P
 
Take a look at this listing I purchased however. There are two actual cast brass shells in it that are complete mysteries to me.
 
 
250565385531
 
Thanks,
Sean


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 8:38:50 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay item

 

All,
 
          Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item  number   190366450975  that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3  but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned  " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
 
   As an avid collector of vintage HO  including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
 
   Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
 
                                     Jim H

Group: vintageHO Message: 13018 From: oljoe@bex.net Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)
The cast items look like bronze to me. The brass stuff
is just that - detail is fine. Bronze won't cast
fine detail. Detail can be applied but not cast.
Joe O'Loughlin
Group: vintageHO Message: 13019 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay item
Positive it is HO??  Schorr made one in brass in OO that was very similar in design to the Varney--down to the insert in the roof.  The ones I have  have the "chicken wire" side panels   gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:38 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay item

All,
 
          Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item  number   190366450975  that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3  but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned  " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
 
   As an avid collector of vintage HO  including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
 
   Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
 
                                     Jim H



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Group: vintageHO Message: 13020 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)
Hi Jim,
 
Yes. The cast diesel shells. The E? unit maybe an FL9 depending on its length. I have seen neither before, although the S1 unit looks like one you may have had me bid on before.
 
I see Joe said that might be Bronze, which is a possibility as I do not have them yet. They are paid for, but not delivered yet.
 
 
Sean
 

 


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 11:24:31 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

 



Sean,
 
    What two are you talking about The 2 diesel shells perhaps ???
 
                                                 Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:18 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

 

Hi Jim,
 
It was not me. I would be surprised to see if it was brass. My bet is it is diecast and not brass, just painted gold.
 
With all that shine, it would be nearly impossible to check unless you actually stripped it off. If you scratch the diecast, the fresh scratch has a high gloss silver shine of it's own and would look gold too with the light reflecting off of the gold paint.
 
I should ave painted all my diecast gold....
 
;P
 
Take a look at this listing I purchased however. There are two actual cast brass shells in it that are complete mysteries to me.
 
 
250565385531
 
Thanks,
Sean


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 8:38:50 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay item

 

All,
 
          Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item  number   190366450975  that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3  but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned  " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
 
   As an avid collector of vintage HO  including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
 
   Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
 
                                     Jim H


Group: vintageHO Message: 13021 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay item
I had one like that--my first HO loco--Eventually I had an Athearn/Globe drive in it.  don't recall what happened to it but I think someone in the DC area talked me out of it when I was back there in mid 60's.   gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay item

I looked the photos over very carefully.  It was definitely Varney including the early four wheel power truck.  I would suspect it was plated or painted.  I did not bid because it was only four wheel power.

Don Staton in VA
===================================================

jim heckard wrote:
 

All,
 
          Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item  number   190366450975  that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3  but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned  " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
 
   As an avid collector of vintage HO  including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
 
   Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
 



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2645 - Release Date: 01/25/10 19:36:00

Group: vintageHO Message: 13022 From: jim heckard Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

Sean,
   
         I know you don't have them in your possession yet and the pictures you were able to supply were from the  Ebay auction / seller but I feel when they arrive more views and angles would be better unless others can ID from what you were able to supply at this time. I agree that both the diesel shells look to be  bronze castings. Something about the E unit ? ( or exactly what it is ) stands out to me. It's the cab side windows and door patterns I can't my finger on it as to why it rings a bell pertaining to manufacturer.
 
    The S-1 type switcher body doesn't look like the same item you talk about. I'll keep studying your picture but you know I don't like snap judgments unless something is obvious.
 
                                                                       Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

 

Hi Jim,
 
Yes. The cast diesel shells. The E? unit maybe an FL9 depending on its length. I have seen neither before, although the S1 unit looks like one you may have had me bid on before.
 
I see Joe said that might be Bronze, which is a possibility as I do not have them yet. They are paid for, but not delivered yet.
 
 
Sean
 

 


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 11:24:31 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

 



Sean,
 
    What two are you talking about The 2 diesel shells perhaps ???
 
                                                 Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:18 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

 

Hi Jim,
 
It was not me. I would be surprised to see if it was brass. My bet is it is diecast and not brass, just painted gold.
 
With all that shine, it would be nearly impossible to check unless you actually stripped it off. If you scratch the diecast, the fresh scratch has a high gloss silver shine of it's own and would look gold too with the light reflecting off of the gold paint.
 
I should ave painted all my diecast gold....
 
;P
 
Take a look at this listing I purchased however. There are two actual cast brass shells in it that are complete mysteries to me.
 
 
250565385531
 
Thanks,
Sean


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 8:38:50 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay item

 

All,
 
          Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item  number   190366450975  that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3  but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned  " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
 
   As an avid collector of vintage HO  including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
 
   Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
 
                                     Jim H


Group: vintageHO Message: 13023 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)
Hi Jim,
 
Thanks,
 
That is why I went for them. They were interesting to me. Never seen anything like either before.
 
The dozen or so brass tender oil converters and the cab boiler interior were a nice bonus.
Sean


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 1:43:57 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

 



Sean,
   
         I know you don't have them in your possession yet and the pictures you were able to supply were from the  Ebay auction / seller but I feel when they arrive more views and angles would be better unless others can ID from what you were able to supply at this time. I agree that both the diesel shells look to be  bronze castings. Something about the E unit ? ( or exactly what it is ) stands out to me. It's the cab side windows and door patterns I can't my finger on it as to why it rings a bell pertaining to manufacturer.
 
    The S-1 type switcher body doesn't look like the same item you talk about. I'll keep studying your picture but you know I don't like snap judgments unless something is obvious.
 
                                                                       Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

 

Hi Jim,
 
Yes. The cast diesel shells. The E? unit maybe an FL9 depending on its length. I have seen neither before, although the S1 unit looks like one you may have had me bid on before.
 
I see Joe said that might be Bronze, which is a possibility as I do not have them yet. They are paid for, but not delivered yet.
 
 
Sean
 

 


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 11:24:31 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

 



Sean,
 
    What two are you talking about The 2 diesel shells perhaps ???
 
                                                 Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:18 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Another Ebay item (Plus a comment on Jim's item)

 

Hi Jim,
 
It was not me. I would be surprised to see if it was brass. My bet is it is diecast and not brass, just painted gold.
 
With all that shine, it would be nearly impossible to check unless you actually stripped it off. If you scratch the diecast, the fresh scratch has a high gloss silver shine of it's own and would look gold too with the light reflecting off of the gold paint.
 
I should ave painted all my diecast gold....
 
;P
 
Take a look at this listing I purchased however. There are two actual cast brass shells in it that are complete mysteries to me.
 
 
250565385531
 
Thanks,
Sean


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 8:38:50 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Ebay item

 

All,
 
          Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item  number   190366450975  that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3  but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned  " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
 
   As an avid collector of vintage HO  including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
 
   Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
 
                                     Jim H



Group: vintageHO Message: 13024 From: trainm7 Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay item
A local hobby dealer, Tuckers Hobbies of Warren Ma. showed me a bronze casting like this It was done by someone who had access to foundry equipment. This person was said to have made some castings that were copies of the Varney F-3.This was a person in Western Mass and were made in the 1950s,I think. The casting was not as fine as the original Varney.It was heavy and look reasonably good. When I have
a chance I will contact him and ask for more details.
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item number 190366450975 that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3 but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
>
> As an avid collector of vintage HO including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
>
> Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13025 From: jim heckard Date: 1/26/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay item
    I appreciate your information and also that you will try to contact the person you mention.  Thank You.
 
                                                            Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: trainm7
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 2:18 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ebay item

 

A local hobby dealer, Tuckers Hobbies of Warren Ma. showed me a bronze casting like this It was done by someone who had access to foundry equipment. This person was said to have made some castings that were copies of the Varney F-3.This was a person in Western Mass and were made in the 1950s,I think. The casting was not as fine as the original Varney.It was heavy and look reasonably good. When I have
a chance I will contact him and ask for more details.
--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Was wondering if any member was the winner of an Ebay item that went off last evening. Item number 190366450975 that was described as Varney Brass ?. It was an F-3 that was very similar in look to the Varney cast metal F-3 but according to the seller was solid brass. There is no record I know of in any catalog or book ( Greenberg Guide to Varney HO by D Spanagel ) of this item in brass ( or brass alloy ). However I have learned " Never say never " as a few pieces of Varney not known have come out of the woodwork.
>
> As an avid collector of vintage HO including Varney I would like to find out just who created this piece. Is it Varney with numbers or name embossed / raised somewhere especially inside the body ? Is it solid cast brass or is it coated / plated ?
>
> Would like to find out exactly what this item is. If it can be determined, especially if it is Varney, it could add greatly to HO history.
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13026 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 1/27/2010
Subject: eBay item 250565385531
Sean and all,
 
Two weeks ago there was an auction held near Morton, Illinois. I have no doubt this was the source of the lot you purchased. The auction barn that night was filled mostly with the accumulation of a deceased man who reportedly did repairs for model railroading collectors in the area. There were rack loads and tables of boxes of everything from steam locomotive shells to layout buildings to decals, all in vintage HO scale. Virtually all the rolling stock had been disassembled and was scattered throughout the building. There were boxes of locomotive frames, one box consisting of tenders, and boxes of everything from mixed wheel sets to Kadee couplers. There were dozens and dozens of brass pieces from motive power to cabooses, mostly in pieces. There were thousands and thousands of items.
 
I am not in the same league with any of you, but I have been an old toy collector for over 30 years, and I have an affinity for HO, so I at least have a clue. Buyers had 4 hours to preview the merchandise. It was clear that the only people buying were eBay resellers, because the train guys I know who were there were just shaking their heads over the mess at hand. We were sure there were many complete to mostly complete units, but it would have taken everyone in this group 6 months in a closed conference room to begin to mate everything up.
 
Sorry for the long report, but my point is that I encourage everyone in the group to keep on top of eBay for the foreseeable future, because I am certain there will be more opportunities to acquire some very desirable artifacts from the hobby, including some obscure items. Happy hunting!
 
Larry

Group: vintageHO Message: 13027 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/27/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531
Hi Larry,
 
Thanks for the heads-up.  I for one am always on the look-out as anyone here probably already knows. I apologize if I outbid anyone. I go for what I like and I try to aquire for my collection anything I can find that is obscure and rare, or just different.
 
I wish I could find those auctions as they arize, before they hit the bay. I have had no luck so far, but I will... eventually.
Sean


From: Lawrence Orr <mh18fd@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 12:38:15 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] eBay item 250565385531

 

Sean and all,
 
Two weeks ago there was an auction held near Morton, Illinois. I have no doubt this was the source of the lot you purchased. The auction barn that night was filled mostly with the accumulation of a deceased man who reportedly did repairs for model railroading collectors in the area. There were rack loads and tables of boxes of everything from steam locomotive shells to layout buildings to decals, all in vintage HO scale. Virtually all the rolling stock had been disassembled and was scattered throughout the building. There were boxes of locomotive frames, one box consisting of tenders, and boxes of everything from mixed wheel sets to Kadee couplers. There were dozens and dozens of brass pieces from motive power to cabooses, mostly in pieces. There were thousands and thousands of items.
 
I am not in the same league with any of you, but I have been an old toy collector for over 30 years, and I have an affinity for HO, so I at least have a clue. Buyers had 4 hours to preview the merchandise. It was clear that the only people buying were eBay resellers, because the train guys I know who were there were just shaking their heads over the mess at hand. We were sure there were many complete to mostly complete units, but it would have taken everyone in this group 6 months in a closed conference room to begin to mate everything up.
 
Sorry for the long report, but my point is that I encourage everyone in the group to keep on top of eBay for the foreseeable future, because I am certain there will be more opportunities to acquire some very desirable artifacts from the hobby, including some obscure items. Happy hunting!
 
Larry


Group: vintageHO Message: 13028 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 1/27/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531
Lawrence Orr wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Sorry for the long report, but my point is that I encourage everyone
> in the group to keep on top of eBay for the foreseeable future,
> because I am certain there will be more opportunities to acquire some
> very desirable artifacts from the hobby, including some obscure items.
> Happy hunting!
>
> Larry
>
And, a lesson how not to treat our models.... or they will be sold off
some day in the same embarrassing situation... better keep them in one
piece, or at least keep the pieces in one box.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13029 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/27/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531
What I do, and am doing, is printing out instruction sheets for each unit, and placing with it, with handwritten notes of where it came from, and approximate year of manufacture.
Partials have post-its inside the body.

For no other reason, it will help those who have to dispose of this stuff someday.

Dave

> Lawrence Orr wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sorry for the long report, but my point is that I encourage everyone
> > in the group to keep on top of eBay for the foreseeable future,
> > because I am certain there will be more opportunities to acquire some
> > very desirable artifacts from the hobby, including some obscure items.
> > Happy hunting!
> >
> > Larry
> >
> And, a lesson how not to treat our models.... or they will be sold off
> some day in the same embarrassing situation... better keep them in one
> piece, or at least keep the pieces in one box.
>
> Gerold
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13030 From: Robert Driggers Date: 1/27/2010
Subject: Smoke box front

 

Does any one know where I could find a couple of smoke box fronts(covers) for the Rivarossi B&O Fillmore 4-6-2? Or, does anyone know of a substitute cover that will work?
Thanks,
Robert


Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13031 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
>
> What I do, and am doing, is printing out instruction sheets for each unit, and placing with it, with handwritten notes of where it came from, and approximate year of manufacture.
> Partials have post-its inside the body.
>
> For no other reason, it will help those who have to dispose of this stuff someday.
>
> Dave
>

That is a really cool Idea to do,
am I;m sure someday somebody is going to see this and be very greatful someone took the time to do so.
Myself as
Not being one for a ton of vintsge stuff, I do like the older metal/brass/wood cars, they just have a look to them unlike many of the plastic kits today, and I know the guy who built them had a real pastion fo rthis hobby to, I had the honor of seeing his collection before it was picked over.
But I'm sure as long as this Hobby continues on, their will always be vintage stuff to be had.
I've noticed the last month or so in Ebay allot of the craftmans kits are showing up as well as allot of brass stuff,
But If Zi am correct,
sellers hord this stuff they plan to sell when tax returns on coming or got..
Which I spose is a good play, I've noticed over the last couple weeks final bid prices are up a good deal.

I believe trains are like old cars, if you got um, run um... nothing to me is just for looking at on a shelf :-)

Larry L Doub
Davenport Iowa
Group: vintageHO Message: 13032 From: jim heckard Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: keeping records
   
 
           I  would like to add to keeping records of  vintage HO collections as it pertains to what I do. First I have an extensive collection and I worry about fire and theft. (I'm not worried as much about theft as special precautions are in place ) I have a special insurance policy in case something would happen. It had to be other then loss under my homeowners policy because most of the items are not replaceable according to the insurance reps. While I had always kept a written and video record I must now always keep it up to date with any new items.
 
    This comes in handy in other ways. I fully intend to pass my collection on to my two children who already know the approximate value of the items. Also if for some financial reason I would have to sell off everything the records have been taken care of as to what each individual item is. 
 
    I know everybody doesn't have to go to these extremes but keeping a record of your trains is a very good idea.
 
                                                         Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13033 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: Re: keeping records
Someday I will get to it..


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, January 28, 2010 2:59:53 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] keeping records

 

   
 
           I  would like to add to keeping records of  vintage HO collections as it pertains to what I do. First I have an extensive collection and I worry about fire and theft. (I'm not worried as much about theft as special precautions are in place ) I have a special insurance policy in case something would happen. It had to be other then loss under my homeowners policy because most of the items are not replaceable according to the insurance reps. While I had always kept a written and video record I must now always keep it up to date with any new items.
 
    This comes in handy in other ways. I fully intend to pass my collection on to my two children who already know the approximate value of the items. Also if for some financial reason I would have to sell off everything the records have been taken care of as to what each individual item is. 
 
    I know everybody doesn't have to go to these extremes but keeping a record of your trains is a very good idea.
 
                                                         Jim H

Group: vintageHO Message: 13034 From: Garry Spear Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: FS: ARDEN Baggage and BINKLEY Peerless Beer Kits
Two more vintage wood kits.

Binkley Peerless Beer
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S891a.jpg
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S891b.jpg
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S891c.jpg
Nice clean kit. Seems complete, car drawing (second picture),
instructions and wood car sides (third picture).

ARDEN Baggage Car.- 6.5/7.0 in. length. Assembled car body.
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S892a.jpg
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S892b.jpg
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S892c.jpg
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S892d.jpg
Kit started, well built pictures show both side and ends. The 4th.
picture shows the instruction sheet and factory painted lettering
boards.

I'm asking(?) $80.00 for the pair of cars with shipping included. No
trucks with either car. Taking offers.

I will be in Springfield Mass. until Monday, so no hurry to respond.

Garrett (Garry) Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 13035 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 1/28/2010
Subject: eBay item 250565385531
Sean, Dave, Gerold and all,
 
Had the announcement for that auction given an accurate portrayal of what was being sold, I would have posted an announcement here, "just in case". I always like to see a vintage piece go to hands that can and will appreciate it the most.
 
Like Sean, I have spent the mature part of my collecting life pursuing the rare and unusual. At the risk of being thrown out of this group, I will admit to being a toy fire engine collector, and will spend the rest of my days seeking a Megow cardboard firehouse (more of Dave's tinder). Knowing that many early HO products, and virtually all brass units, were made in very small quantites, it was maddening to to watch so many priceless (to somebody) pieces pass into the hands of mercenaries. Perhaps additional eBay listings will resolve more of that.
 
As for identification protocols, I applaud Dave's effort. Years ago, I developed a photo plus three ring binder method to track purchase information. With eBay, it is a simple matter to run a copy of the listing after it closes. In so doing, all the important information is captured, including a picture. Three holes later the sheet is filed alphabetically by manufacturer, making any needed reference easy.
 
Gerold's point is well taken. Even though I sometimes lament how much of my collection reposes in boxes, I take solice in the fact that the pieces of history in my temporary custody are being preserved for at least one more generation.
 
Larry
 
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13036 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: More eBay
Group: vintageHO Message: 13037 From: Mike Bauers Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Not I,

But I do see that the number three image [in the blow-up block] shows
one very thick side wall of the Alco to be warped in as well as one
wall of the Birney having the same problem.

You might have got two models with casting metal failure.

Best to ya'
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee Wi, USA


On Jan 29, 2010, at 4:52 AM, Don Dellmann wrote:

> Was it one of you youse that outbid me?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270519317910
Group: vintageHO Message: 13038 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Don, Whoever this was, they were obvious not beginners in this hobby
whether they collect for themselves or refurbish to resell. By their bid history,
I see that they've had transactions with 4421 individual Sellers and/or
Buyers with at least one item per individual and who knows how many total
transactions in all when multiple transactions at various times with these
trading partners are considered. Ray </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13039 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Ray, Don,
 
Sorry, I must admit it was I.
 
At least I now have an idea of how ebay now represents your handle Don. Sorry about that. Is there one you wanted?  I am sure we can work something out.
 
Thanks for the compliment Ray,
 
Sean


From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 8:39:35 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

Don, Whoever this was, they were obvious not beginners in this hobby
whether they collect for themselves or refurbish to resell. By their bid history,
I see that they've had transactions with 4421 individual Sellers and/or
Buyers with at least one item per individual and who knows how many total
transactions in all when multiple transactions at various times with these
trading partners are considered. Ray </HTML>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13040 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used everyone's
Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having metal
failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks like this is
one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when checking over
any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to you. Ray
</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13041 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Actually Ray,
 
eBay has made it more dificult, but not impossible to see who is bidding. They use the same a***b for each user and keep it that way for several months. Tom Hare and I always know when we bid on the same stuff because of this. He usually just drives up the final price for me.. sometines quite significantly I might add. We always look at the same stuff and since we both bid at the last second, we never know until the dust settles.
 
Me, I use a sniping service since I work, have kids and lately have been the one getting them dressed, fed and off to school in the mornings. I have almost no time to bid directly.
 
Sean


From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 11:31:13 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used everyone's
Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having metal
failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks like this is
one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when checking over
any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to you. Ray
</HTML>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13042 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Who made this loco

Hello, Please let me know who you believe made this loco.  Please note the drive wheel axles do not seem to have a plate to hold them in place.  It appears they were assembled on to the frame, except for the gear box axle.  The body is cast.  Thanks in advance.  More photos in a following email.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13043 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Second set of photos
Attachments :

Again thanks for your knowledge.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13044 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Second set of photos [3 Attachments]
Hi Chuck,
 
Without holding it in my hand, I would have to say it is a quite beautiful kitbash. It looks to be a Mantua Consolidation cab and boiler with some original details. Beyond that, I have no idea. The pilot might be a Varney casting. The chassis is a complete mystery to me. It could be scratch or a kitbashed japan import.
 
If it is a Mantua Consol shell, it is a shame you do not have the original chassis.
 
Sean


From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 2:40:38 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Second set of photos [3 Attachments]

 

Again thanks for your knowledge.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

 


Group: vintageHO Message: 13045 From: jim heckard Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Second set of photos

  Chuck, Sean,
 
        I have to leave till much later for now but I took a quick look at the pictures Chuck sent.  He states body / boiler  is cast.       Sean   I only know of Mantua Consolidation boiler to be pre war and brass.  Unless modified boiler I am inclined to rule out, Varney, Mantua and Penn Line Consolidation boilers. As to chassis I will look closer later as some Varney chassis have "the look". I'm sure by the time I get back it will be identified by others. Quick looks and snap judgements not a good idea.
 
                                                   Jim H 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Second set of photos

 

Hi Chuck,
 
Without holding it in my hand, I would have to say it is a quite beautiful kitbash. It looks to be a Mantua Consolidation cab and boiler with some original details. Beyond that, I have no idea. The pilot might be a Varney casting. The chassis is a complete mystery to me. It could be scratch or a kitbashed japan import.
 
If it is a Mantua Consol shell, it is a shame you do not have the original chassis.
 
Sean


From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 2:40:38 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Second set of photos [3 Attachments]

 

Again thanks for your knowledge.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

 


Group: vintageHO Message: 13046 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Second set of photos - Who made it
I suspect the frame is Varney or home made using Varney drivers with wheels held to the axle by screws.  The cross head looks like Varney or Mantua.  The valvegear hanger could be either one also with some modifications.  What motor is in it?
Don Staton in VA.
===================================================

Sean Naylor wrote:
 
Hi Chuck,
 
Without holding it in my hand, I would have to say it is a quite beautiful kitbash. It looks to be a Mantua Consolidation cab and boiler with some original details. Beyond that, I have no idea. The pilot might be a Varney casting. The chassis is a complete mystery to me. It could be scratch or a kitbashed japan import.
 
If it is a Mantua Consol shell, it is a shame you do not have the original chassis.
 
Sean



Group: vintageHO Message: 13047 From: jim heckard Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Chuck's Unknown Consy
Chuck, Sean,
 
    I might have misinterpreted Chuck's original message where he stated body ( boiler ) was cast. I was thinking cast metal and it probably meant cast brass. If it is cast brass Mantua's pre war Consolidation boiler and cab are back in the picture. I've sent two pictures of my Consolidation to judge details. Sorry if I read the post wrong.
 
  Must get going as wife blowing the horn. Later for chassis ID if still needed..
 
                                                             Jim H
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13048 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Second set of photos
Hi Jim, Chuch,
 
I made my Mantua boiler call as I have here sitting next to my desk at work my highly detailed Mantua Consolidation. I also have the benifit of two large flat plasma computer screens from which to work from.
 
I looked at the large version of your side view photo and held my engine up at a particular distance from my eye, which made the two engines appear to be approximately the same size.  Your photo was larger than life in my screen, so I had to hold my engine pretty close.
 
I then compaired detail for detail the two engines and form for form. I also compared the underside view of the shell only photo with what i could make of the underside of my shell, without taking it apart.
 
I know of only two cast brass Cosol shells, Vantua's and Varneys. Varney's can bee rulled out almost immediately. I could tell from the thickness of your shell that it was cast, before I even read it in your email. It was after i saw it was cast, I went back and read it in your email.
 
I also looked at the cab lower approx 110 degree angle it makes at the bottom as it wrapps around the firebox. In every detail I saw (and missing detail for that matter) I saw nothing but an exact match to the boiler shell I had in my hand.
 
Any detail yours has that mine does not have, lokks to me to be an added detail and not molded on, so it did not bother me to see it in making my determination.
 
Long story short.. My determination is not one of haste or to use Jims term... snapppy.
 
In all, it is only my opinion. I must say however, thanks to sites like eBay, I have gotten quite good at looking at a picture (even poor quality) and scoring big on my hunches.
 
I think you have a golden piece there Chuck.
 
Nice score!
 
Sean


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 3:32:08 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Second set of photos

 



  Chuck, Sean,
 
        I have to leave till much later for now but I took a quick look at the pictures Chuck sent.  He states body / boiler  is cast.       Sean   I only know of Mantua Consolidation boiler to be pre war and brass.  Unless modified boiler I am inclined to rule out, Varney, Mantua and Penn Line Consolidation boilers. As to chassis I will look closer later as some Varney chassis have "the look". I'm sure by the time I get back it will be identified by others. Quick looks and snap judgements not a good idea.
 
                                                   Jim H 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Second set of photos

 

Hi Chuck,
 
Without holding it in my hand, I would have to say it is a quite beautiful kitbash. It looks to be a Mantua Consolidation cab and boiler with some original details. Beyond that, I have no idea. The pilot might be a Varney casting. The chassis is a complete mystery to me. It could be scratch or a kitbashed japan import.
 
If it is a Mantua Consol shell, it is a shame you do not have the original chassis.
 
Sean


From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 2:40:38 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Second set of photos [3 Attachments]

 

Again thanks for your knowledge.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

 



Group: vintageHO Message: 13049 From: jim heckard Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: me
   Sean,
 
 Just so we are straight. I wasn't saying you made a snappy judgment. I was referring to me doing it because I was in a hurry to leave
 
                                     Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13050 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: me
Making me type this twice Jim...  That's not nice... (;P)
 
Oh.. I know you wern't referring to me Jim. No worries here. I just used your term..
 
Thought you had to go?
 
Man, my wife would be pissed at me. She must really love you.



From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: a69mustang4me@...; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 4:14:30 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] me

 

   Sean,
 
 Just so we are straight. I wasn't saying you made a snappy judgment. I was referring to me doing it because I was in a hurry to leave
 
                                     Jim H

Group: vintageHO Message: 13051 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Chuck's Unknown Consy [2 Attachments]

Jim,

Yes, cast brass, sorry for that.

 

Thanks for the info guys, it is a big help.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 3:53 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Chuck's Unknown Consy [2 Attachments]

 

 

Chuck, Sean,

 

    I might have misinterpreted Chuck's original message where he stated body ( boiler ) was cast. I was thinking cast metal and it probably meant cast brass. If it is cast brass Mantua 's pre war Consolidation boiler and cab are back in the picture. I've sent two pictures of my Consolidation to judge details. Sorry if I read the post wrong.

 

  Must get going as wife blowing the horn. Later for chassis ID if still needed..

 

,_._,___

Group: vintageHO Message: 13052 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Actually all of them, but not enough to bid high. I was kind of looking at
the Alco switcher because I know that can be made to fit an Athearn SW
chassis. The trolleys were gravy. I know the diecast one was a Walthers but
the "brass" one intrigued me.

Don


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay


Ray, Don,

Sorry, I must admit it was I.

At least I now have an idea of how ebay now represents your handle Don.
Sorry about that. Is there one you wanted? I am sure we can work something
out.

Thanks for the compliment Ray,

Sean




________________________________
From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 8:39:35 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay


Don, Whoever this was, they were obvious not beginners in this hobby
whether they collect for themselves or refurbish to resell. By their bid
history,
I see that they've had transactions with 4421 individual Sellers and/or
Buyers with at least one item per individual and who knows how many total
transactions in all when multiple transactions at various times with these
trading partners are considered. Ray </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13053 From: John Hagen Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

Don,

Id of gave you one hell of a run for that ALCO shell. But since I have managed to snag an undec Atlas with which to model GB&W 101 I was able to let it go.

Yeah, I know, where is my interest in vintage HO. Actually I just received an original run Mantua 2-8-2 (photos to come) that shall remain unmodified to go some of the other vintage Mantua, Varney and Lindsay I have been collecting since my interest collecting historic models as re-emerged.

However, for my GB&W collection, accuracy is king, thus the Atlas HH.

John Hagen

Group: vintageHO Message: 13054 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I might
not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
checkbook"--Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR Coast
Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
5-hour session.
gj
----- Original Message -----
From: <erieberk@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay


> Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
> eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
> transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
> everyone's
> Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having metal
> failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks like
> this is
> one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when checking
> over
> any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to you.
> Ray
> </HTML>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date: 01/29/10
09:08:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 13055 From: Jim Waterman Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: eBay item 250565385531
Does anyone know the heritage of that cast brass diesel locomotive shell? Very crude, but very distinctive, like someone whittled it out of a solid block of brass.
 
Jim Waterman
Group: vintageHO Message: 13056 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: Second set of photos

What looks like nickel-silver drivers would put it into at least the late fifties. gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Second set of photos


  Chuck, Sean,
 
        I have to leave till much later for now but I took a quick look at the pictures Chuck sent.  He states body / boiler  is cast.       Sean   I only know of Mantua Consolidation boiler to be pre war and brass.  Unless modified boiler I am inclined to rule out, Varney, Mantua and Penn Line Consolidation boilers. As to chassis I will look closer later as some Varney chassis have "the look". I'm sure by the time I get back it will be identified by others. Quick looks and snap judgements not a good idea.
 
                                                   Jim H 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Second set of photos

 

Hi Chuck,
 
Without holding it in my hand, I would have to say it is a quite beautiful kitbash. It looks to be a Mantua Consolidation cab and boiler with some original details. Beyond that, I have no idea. The pilot might be a Varney casting. The chassis is a complete mystery to me. It could be scratch or a kitbashed japan import.
 
If it is a Mantua Consol shell, it is a shame you do not have the original chassis.
 
Sean


From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@verizon. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 2:40:38 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Second set of photos [3 Attachments]

 

Again thanks for your knowledge.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

 




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date: 01/29/10 09:08:00

Group: vintageHO Message: 13057 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531
Hi Jim.  
I intend to post pictures as soon as it comes. Both of the diesel shells in fact.  

Sean

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 29, 2010, at 7:47 PM, "Jim Waterman" <Watermaj@...> wrote:

 

Does anyone know the heritage of that cast brass diesel locomotive shell? Very crude, but very distinctive, like someone whittled it out of a solid block of brass.
 
Jim Waterman


Group: vintageHO Message: 13058 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
I have had a few of the walthers diesels in the past. There diecast is very soft, almost lead-like.  I have never seen one of these with any rot. Not saying it is not possible, but I will be surprised if it is. The trolley could be a different matter.

Sean 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 29, 2010, at 7:27 AM, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:

 

Not I,

But I do see that the number three image [in the blow-up block] shows
one very thick side wall of the Alco to be warped in as well as one
wall of the Birney having the same problem.

You might have got two models with casting metal failure.

Best to ya'
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee Wi, USA

On Jan 29, 2010, at 4:52 AM, Don Dellmann wrote:

> Was it one of you youse that outbid me?
>
> http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=27051931791 0


Group: vintageHO Message: 13059 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/29/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Sean, I tend to agree with you regarding the Walthers cast lead units. I have serveral of the lead alloy based Walthers Alco High Hood Diesels and two of their Birneys,(old versions from the '40's and new from circa 1980) and none have any zinc rot because they are not hard zinc based high pressure die castings. That is not to say that the lead might have contamination in it, but Walthers seemed to use "clean" lead or lead alloy. Also, it is possible to forcably break a casting by bending it too much, but that is not a rot problem. W Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
>
> I have had a few of the walthers diesels in the past. There diecast is very soft, almost lead-like. I have never seen one of these with any rot. Not saying it is not possible, but I will be surprised if it is. The trolley could be a different matter.
>
> Sean
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 29, 2010, at 7:27 AM, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
>
> Not I,
>
> But I do see that the number three image [in the blow-up block] shows
> one very thick side wall of the Alco to be warped in as well as one
> wall of the Birney having the same problem.
>
> You might have got two models with casting metal failure.
>
> Best to ya'
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee Wi, USA
>
> On Jan 29, 2010, at 4:52 AM, Don Dellmann wrote:
>
> > Was it one of you youse that outbid me?
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270519317910
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13060 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
I liked the old way, also.  Sometimes if I won something, I knew where another one could be found and I would email the next highest bidder with that info.
 
Or if I had some additional interesting information about somebody else's purchase, I would email them about it.   (But only after the auction.  I figured it was bad form to interfere with somebody else's auction.)
 
Or if somebody bought something Gorre & Daphetid, I would send them a message calling attention to the www.gdlines.com site.  Many hadn't heard of it and were very appreciative.
 
I actually "met" some people with common interests and we have shared all sorts of correspondence over the years.
 
But apparantly it left a door open for bad guys.  And I guess too many people can't spot the bad guys.  so ebay migrates towards being a nanny state of affairs.
 
But you know, I still go to real train shows a couple times a year.  And they still have people with real names with no corporation getting in the way of chatting with them.  It does take a little more effort, and gasoline, than sitting at the keyboard.  But it's worth it.
 
Chuck Kinzer
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn476
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I might
not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
checkbook"-- Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR Coast
Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
5-hour session.
gj
----- Original Message -----
From: <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

> Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
> eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
> transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
> everyone's
> Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having metal
> failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks like
> this is
> one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when checking
> over
> any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to you.
> Ray
> </HTML>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date: 01/29/10
09:08:00

Group: vintageHO Message: 13061 From: the_plainsman Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Chuck and Glenn, I too liked the old eBay way, as one not only knew who one was bidding against, one could also learn from them, which I did. I first found out about the old NMRA Vintage HO SIG from another bidder, whom I later even traded items with. And I also met a couple other eBayersi knew at train shows, forming friendships in the hobby. Too bad they had to close that door, but even with the extra effort of the new payment regs, it still is a great way to supplement the mary area trains shoew I am lucky enough to have in the NY/NJ/PA area, and invaluable for those who are not as lucky. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
>
> I liked the old way, also. Sometimes if I won something, I knew where another one could be found and I would email the next highest bidder with that info.
>
> Or if I had some additional interesting information about somebody else's purchase, I would email them about it. (But only after the auction. I figured it was bad form to interfere with somebody else's auction.)
>
> Or if somebody bought something Gorre & Daphetid, I would send them a message calling attention to the www.gdlines.com site. Many hadn't heard of it and were very appreciative.
>
> I actually "met" some people with common interests and we have shared all sorts of correspondence over the years.
>
> But apparantly it left a door open for bad guys. And I guess too many people can't spot the bad guys. so ebay migrates towards being a nanny state of affairs.
>
> But you know, I still go to real train shows a couple times a year. And they still have people with real names with no corporation getting in the way of chatting with them. It does take a little more effort, and gasoline, than sitting at the keyboard. But it's worth it.
>
> Chuck Kinzer
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Glenn476
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>
>
>
> I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I might
> not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
> checkbook"--Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR Coast
> Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
> 5-hour session.
> gj
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <erieberk@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>
> > Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
> > eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
> > transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
> > everyone's
> > Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having metal
> > failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks like
> > this is
> > one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when checking
> > over
> > any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to you.
> > Ray
> > </HTML>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date: 01/29/10
> 09:08:00
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13062 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
I know of several members (at least one for sure) on this very list who
found it through eBay.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


----- Original Message -----
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:53 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More eBay


> Chuck and Glenn, I too liked the old eBay way, as one not only knew who
> one was bidding against, one could also learn from them, which I did. I
> first found out about the old NMRA Vintage HO SIG from another bidder,
> whom I later even traded items with. And I also met a couple other
> eBayersi knew at train shows, forming friendships in the hobby. Too bad
> they had to close that door, but even with the extra effort of the new
> payment regs, it still is a great way to supplement the mary area trains
> shoew I am lucky enough to have in the NY/NJ/PA area, and invaluable for
> those who are not as lucky. W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
>>
>> I liked the old way, also. Sometimes if I won something, I knew where
>> another one could be found and I would email the next highest bidder with
>> that info.
>>
>> Or if I had some additional interesting information about somebody else's
>> purchase, I would email them about it. (But only after the auction. I
>> figured it was bad form to interfere with somebody else's auction.)
>>
>> Or if somebody bought something Gorre & Daphetid, I would send them a
>> message calling attention to the www.gdlines.com site. Many hadn't heard
>> of it and were very appreciative.
>>
>> I actually "met" some people with common interests and we have shared all
>> sorts of correspondence over the years.
>>
>> But apparantly it left a door open for bad guys. And I guess too many
>> people can't spot the bad guys. so ebay migrates towards being a nanny
>> state of affairs.
>>
>> But you know, I still go to real train shows a couple times a year. And
>> they still have people with real names with no corporation getting in the
>> way of chatting with them. It does take a little more effort, and
>> gasoline, than sitting at the keyboard. But it's worth it.
>>
>> Chuck Kinzer
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Glenn476
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>>
>>
>>
>> I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I
>> might
>> not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
>> checkbook"--Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR
>> Coast
>> Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
>> 5-hour session.
>> gj
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <erieberk@...>
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>>
>> > Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
>> > eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
>> > transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
>> > everyone's
>> > Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having
>> metal
>> > failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks
>> like
>> > this is
>> > one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when
>> checking
>> > over
>> > any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to
>> you.
>> > Ray
>> > </HTML>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date:
>> 01/29/10
>> 09:08:00
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13063 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
Must be talking about me Don...
 
My ears were itchy...
 
If I remember correctly, It was me that sold you the Redball brass FM C-Liner
 
The addition of this group to my resources of information and friendship has been invaluable to me.
 
Sean


From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 4:26:43 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More eBay

 

I know of several members (at least one for sure) on this very list who
found it through eBay.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:53 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More eBay

> Chuck and Glenn, I too liked the old eBay way, as one not only knew who
> one was bidding against, one could also learn from them, which I did. I
> first found out about the old NMRA Vintage HO SIG from another bidder,
> whom I later even traded items with. And I also met a couple other
> eBayersi knew at train shows, forming friendships in the hobby. Too bad
> they had to close that door, but even with the extra effort of the new
> payment regs, it still is a great way to supplement the mary area trains
> shoew I am lucky enough to have in the NY/NJ/PA area, and invaluable for
> those who are not as lucky. W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, <ckinzer@... > wrote:
>>
>> I liked the old way, also. Sometimes if I won something, I knew where
>> another one could be found and I would email the next highest bidder with
>> that info.
>>
>> Or if I had some additional interesting information about somebody else's
>> purchase, I would email them about it. (But only after the auction. I
>> figured it was bad form to interfere with somebody else's auction.)
>>
>> Or if somebody bought something Gorre & Daphetid, I would send them a
>> message calling attention to the www.gdlines. com site. Many hadn't heard
>> of it and were very appreciative.
>>
>> I actually "met" some people with common interests and we have shared all
>> sorts of correspondence over the years.
>>
>> But apparantly it left a door open for bad guys. And I guess too many
>> people can't spot the bad guys. so ebay migrates towards being a nanny
>> state of affairs.
>>
>> But you know, I still go to real train shows a couple times a year. And
>> they still have people with real names with no corporation getting in the
>> way of chatting with them. It does take a little more effort, and
>> gasoline, than sitting at the keyboard. But it's worth it.
>>
>> Chuck Kinzer
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Glenn476
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>>
>>
>>
>> I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I
>> might
>> not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
>> checkbook"-- Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR
>> Coast
>> Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
>> 5-hour session.
>> gj
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <erieberk@.. .>
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>>
>> > Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
>> > eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
>> > transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
>> > everyone's
>> > Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having
>> metal
>> > failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks
>> like
>> > this is
>> > one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when
>> checking
>> > over
>> > any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to
>> you.
>> > Ray
>> > </HTML>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date:
>> 01/29/10
>> 09:08:00
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13064 From: George Frey Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
 as an alternitive to e-bay try this site http://www.bonanzle.com it is very simular to the old ebay site in that you know who the buyer is and the great part is you can accept Money-orders  JSGeare (who someof you know)
is one of the seelers ans has a great site three it is here http://www.bonanzle.com/booths/jsgeare he has a lot of gret stuff check out his site.
 
hope this helps
George Frey


From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 12:53:18 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More eBay

 

Chuck and Glenn, I too liked the old eBay way, as one not only knew who one was bidding against, one could also learn from them, which I did. I first found out about the old NMRA Vintage HO SIG from another bidder, whom I later even traded items with. And I also met a couple other eBayersi knew at train shows, forming friendships in the hobby. Too bad they had to close that door, but even with the extra effort of the new payment regs, it still is a great way to supplement the mary area trains shoew I am lucky enough to have in the NY/NJ/PA area, and invaluable for those who are not as lucky. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, <ckinzer@... > wrote:
>
> I liked the old way, also. Sometimes if I won something, I knew where another one could be found and I would email the next highest bidder with that info.
>
> Or if I had some additional interesting information about somebody else's purchase, I would email them about it. (But only after the auction. I figured it was bad form to interfere with somebody else's auction.)
>
> Or if somebody bought something Gorre & Daphetid, I would send them a message calling attention to the www.gdlines. com site. Many hadn't heard of it and were very appreciative.
>
> I actually "met" some people with common interests and we have shared all sorts of correspondence over the years.
>
> But apparantly it left a door open for bad guys. And I guess too many people can't spot the bad guys. so ebay migrates towards being a nanny state of affairs.
>
> But you know, I still go to real train shows a couple times a year. And they still have people with real names with no corporation getting in the way of chatting with them. It does take a little more effort, and gasoline, than sitting at the keyboard. But it's worth it.
>
> Chuck Kinzer
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Glenn476
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>
>
>
> I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I might
> not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
> checkbook"-- Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR Coast
> Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
> 5-hour session.
> gj
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <erieberk@.. .>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>
> > Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
> > eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
> > transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
> > everyone's
> > Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having metal
> > failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks like
> > this is
> > one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when checking
> > over
> > any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to you.
> > Ray
> > </HTML>
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date: 01/29/10
> 09:08:00
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13065 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
I finally decided that if I am meant to have it, I will win. If not--I
won't. Just got delivery of an O Scale loco that I had bid on twice
before--the reserve was not met before-- gj
----- Original Message -----
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 12:53 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More eBay


> Chuck and Glenn, I too liked the old eBay way, as one not only knew who
> one was bidding against, one could also learn from them, which I did. I
> first found out about the old NMRA Vintage HO SIG from another bidder,
> whom I later even traded items with. And I also met a couple other
> eBayersi knew at train shows, forming friendships in the hobby. Too bad
> they had to close that door, but even with the extra effort of the new
> payment regs, it still is a great way to supplement the mary area trains
> shoew I am lucky enough to have in the NY/NJ/PA area, and invaluable for
> those who are not as lucky. W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
>>
>> I liked the old way, also. Sometimes if I won something, I knew where
>> another one could be found and I would email the next highest bidder with
>> that info.
>>
>> Or if I had some additional interesting information about somebody else's
>> purchase, I would email them about it. (But only after the auction. I
>> figured it was bad form to interfere with somebody else's auction.)
>>
>> Or if somebody bought something Gorre & Daphetid, I would send them a
>> message calling attention to the www.gdlines.com site. Many hadn't heard
>> of it and were very appreciative.
>>
>> I actually "met" some people with common interests and we have shared all
>> sorts of correspondence over the years.
>>
>> But apparantly it left a door open for bad guys. And I guess too many
>> people can't spot the bad guys. so ebay migrates towards being a nanny
>> state of affairs.
>>
>> But you know, I still go to real train shows a couple times a year. And
>> they still have people with real names with no corporation getting in the
>> way of chatting with them. It does take a little more effort, and
>> gasoline, than sitting at the keyboard. But it's worth it.
>>
>> Chuck Kinzer
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Glenn476
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>>
>>
>>
>> I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I
>> might
>> not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
>> checkbook"--Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR
>> Coast
>> Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
>> 5-hour session.
>> gj
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <erieberk@...>
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>>
>> > Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
>> > eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
>> > transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
>> > everyone's
>> > Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having
>> metal
>> > failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks
>> like
>> > this is
>> > one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when
>> checking
>> > over
>> > any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to
>> you.
>> > Ray
>> > </HTML>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date:
>> 01/29/10
>> 09:08:00
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2657 - Release Date: 01/30/10
07:35:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 13066 From: George Frey Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
as an alternitive to the old e-bay try this site http://www.bonanzle.comit is very simular to the old ebay in that you know the seller as well as the buyer and you can even acept money-order if you chose try this guy http://www.bonanzle.com/booths/jsgeare he has a great site and is a member of this site and has posted many helpfull ideas here
hope this helps
George Frey


From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 10:15:40 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

I liked the old way, also.  Sometimes if I won something, I knew where another one could be found and I would email the next highest bidder with that info.
 
Or if I had some additional interesting information about somebody else's purchase, I would email them about it.   (But only after the auction.  I figured it was bad form to interfere with somebody else's auction.)
 
Or if somebody bought something Gorre & Daphetid, I would send them a message calling attention to the www.gdlines. com site.  Many hadn't heard of it and were very appreciative.
 
I actually "met" some people with common interests and we have shared all sorts of correspondence over the years.
 
But apparantly it left a door open for bad guys.  And I guess too many people can't spot the bad guys.  so ebay migrates towards being a nanny state of affairs.
 
But you know, I still go to real train shows a couple times a year.  And they still have people with real names with no corporation getting in the way of chatting with them.  It does take a little more effort, and gasoline, than sitting at the keyboard.  But it's worth it.
 
Chuck Kinzer
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn476
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I might
not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
checkbook"-- Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR Coast
Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
5-hour session.
gj
----- Original Message -----
From: <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

> Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
> eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
> transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
> everyone's
> Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having metal
> failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks like
> this is
> one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when checking
> over
> any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to you.
> Ray
> </HTML>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date: 01/29/10
09:08:00


Group: vintageHO Message: 13067 From: orangetrainman Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: more E-BAY
as an alternitive to the old e-bay try this site http://www.bonanzle.comit is very simular to the old ebay in that you know the seller as well as the buyer and you can even acept money-order if you chose try this guy http://www.bonanzle.com/booths/jsgeare he has a great site and is a member of this site and has posted many helpfull ideas here
hope this helps
George Frey




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Group: vintageHO Message: 13068 From: George Frey Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: MORE EBAY


----- Forwarded Message ----
From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 2:36:30 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

as an alternitive to the old e-bay try this site http://www.bonanzle.comit is very simular to the old ebay in that you know the seller as well as the buyer and you can even acept money-order if you chose try this guy http://www.bonanzle.com/booths/jsgeare he has a great site and is a member of this site and has posted many helpfull ideas here
hope this helps
George Frey


From: "ckinzer@att. net" <ckinzer@att. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 10:15:40 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

I liked the old way, also.  Sometimes if I won something, I knew where another one could be found and I would email the next highest bidder with that info.
 
Or if I had some additional interesting information about somebody else's purchase, I would email them about it.   (But only after the auction.  I figured it was bad form to interfere with somebody else's auction.)
 
Or if somebody bought something Gorre & Daphetid, I would send them a message calling attention to the www.gdlines. com site.  Many hadn't heard of it and were very appreciative.
 
I actually "met" some people with common interests and we have shared all sorts of correspondence over the years.
 
But apparantly it left a door open for bad guys.  And I guess too many people can't spot the bad guys.  so ebay migrates towards being a nanny state of affairs.
 
But you know, I still go to real train shows a couple times a year.  And they still have people with real names with no corporation getting in the way of chatting with them.  It does take a little more effort, and gasoline, than sitting at the keyboard.  But it's worth it.
 
Chuck Kinzer
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn476
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I might
not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
checkbook"-- Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR Coast
Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
5-hour session.
gj
----- Original Message -----
From: <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

> Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
> eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
> transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
> everyone's
> Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having metal
> failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks like
> this is
> one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when checking
> over
> any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to you.
> Ray
> </HTML>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date: 01/29/10
09:08:00



Group: vintageHO Message: 13069 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Varney freight cars
I am still cleaning splatter weathering off these, but getting close.
I have a question, not necessarily related....

About 3 of these boxcars and/or reefers, I pull the ladders and grabs, sometimes roofwalk to clean, and I get these strings out of the holes.
I have discovered that these are packed with cotton balls.

I can imagine the reason, if the cars were "noisy", but anybody ever seen house cars packed with cotton before?

Oh, and anybody have a spare spring-steel grab iron and one step for one of these?
A red brake mechnaism and wheel would help, too.

Thanks!

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13070 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: MORE EBAY

There's a fairly new Yahoo group called "trainsandstuff"  that operates more as a swap meet--post what you are looking for or what you have and give an off-list address--I have posted some items--nothing has sold yet--gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 3:08 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] MORE EBAY



----- Forwarded Message ----
From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 2:36:30 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

as an alternitive to the old e-bay try this site http://www.bonanzle.comit is very simular to the old ebay in that you know the seller as well as the buyer and you can even acept money-order if you chose try this guy http://www.bonanzle.com/booths/jsgeare he has a great site and is a member of this site and has posted many helpfull ideas here
hope this helps
George Frey


From: "ckinzer@att. net" <ckinzer@att. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 10:15:40 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

I liked the old way, also.  Sometimes if I won something, I knew where another one could be found and I would email the next highest bidder with that info.
 
Or if I had some additional interesting information about somebody else's purchase, I would email them about it.   (But only after the auction.  I figured it was bad form to interfere with somebody else's auction.)
 
Or if somebody bought something Gorre & Daphetid, I would send them a message calling attention to the www.gdlines. com site.  Many hadn't heard of it and were very appreciative.
 
I actually "met" some people with common interests and we have shared all sorts of correspondence over the years.
 
But apparantly it left a door open for bad guys.  And I guess too many people can't spot the bad guys.  so ebay migrates towards being a nanny state of affairs.
 
But you know, I still go to real train shows a couple times a year.  And they still have people with real names with no corporation getting in the way of chatting with them.  It does take a little more effort, and gasoline, than sitting at the keyboard.  But it's worth it.
 
Chuck Kinzer
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn476
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

 

I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I might
not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
checkbook"-- Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR Coast
Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
5-hour session.
gj
----- Original Message -----
From: <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay

> Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
> eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
> transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
> everyone's
> Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having metal
> failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks like
> this is
> one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when checking
> over
> any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to you.
> Ray
> </HTML>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date: 01/29/10
09:08:00





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2657 - Release Date: 01/30/10 07:35:00

Group: vintageHO Message: 13071 From: Askerberg Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: 8 Ball Mogul question
The Mantua 8 Ball Mogul seems to have changed over time. I just
picked up one today at a swap meet that has a brass frame, whereas
two others I have both have cast frames. The one I got today and one
of the others both have brass fluted domes while the third one has
modern domes as in the catalog photo that I have seen. Did the
earlier Moguls come with the fluted domes? They look as if they
might be the same ones used on the Belle of the Eighties which would
not surprise me. Can anyone enlighten me on the varieties of the
Mogul if there indeed were some?

Thanks.

Al Askerberg
Group: vintageHO Message: 13072 From: Don Dellmann Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: More eBay
It was the Erie-Built, but other than that, yeah.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More eBay


Must be talking about me Don...

My ears were itchy...

If I remember correctly, It was me that sold you the Redball brass FM
C-Liner

The addition of this group to my resources of information and friendship has
been invaluable to me.

Sean




________________________________
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 4:26:43 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: More eBay


I know of several members (at least one for sure) on this very list who
found it through eBay.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:53 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More eBay

> Chuck and Glenn, I too liked the old eBay way, as one not only knew who
> one was bidding against, one could also learn from them, which I did. I
> first found out about the old NMRA Vintage HO SIG from another bidder,
> whom I later even traded items with. And I also met a couple other
> eBayersi knew at train shows, forming friendships in the hobby. Too bad
> they had to close that door, but even with the extra effort of the new
> payment regs, it still is a great way to supplement the mary area trains
> shoew I am lucky enough to have in the NY/NJ/PA area, and invaluable for
> those who are not as lucky. W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, <ckinzer@... > wrote:
>>
>> I liked the old way, also. Sometimes if I won something, I knew where
>> another one could be found and I would email the next highest bidder with
>> that info.
>>
>> Or if I had some additional interesting information about somebody else's
>> purchase, I would email them about it. (But only after the auction. I
>> figured it was bad form to interfere with somebody else's auction.)
>>
>> Or if somebody bought something Gorre & Daphetid, I would send them a
>> message calling attention to the www.gdlines. com site. Many hadn't heard
>> of it and were very appreciative.
>>
>> I actually "met" some people with common interests and we have shared all
>> sorts of correspondence over the years.
>>
>> But apparantly it left a door open for bad guys. And I guess too many
>> people can't spot the bad guys. so ebay migrates towards being a nanny
>> state of affairs.
>>
>> But you know, I still go to real train shows a couple times a year. And
>> they still have people with real names with no corporation getting in the
>> way of chatting with them. It does take a little more effort, and
>> gasoline, than sitting at the keyboard. But it's worth it.
>>
>> Chuck Kinzer
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Glenn476
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>>
>>
>>
>> I liked the old way--it allowed me to see who I was bidding against--I
>> might
>> not oppose a friend, or in some cases someone I knew had a "bottomless
>> checkbook"-- Used to know one of those when I attended the NMRA-PCR
>> Coast
>> Division meets--their auctions would turn over more than 600 items in a
>> 5-hour session.
>> gj
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <erieberk@.. .>
>> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 8:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] More eBay
>>
>> > Sean, Yeah, there's really no longer any way of identifying anyone on
>> > eBay, members are just given codes, like "a***b" with their number of
>> > transactions after it. Before this went into effect, eBay just used
>> > everyone's
>> > Username. Sure hope you're not getting a couple of castings having
>> metal
>> > failure, as Mike suggested, but I guess you'll soon find out. Looks
>> like
>> > this is
>> > one question that needs to be asked every time of a Seller when
>> checking
>> > over
>> > any models with such castings no matter how good they may look to
>> you.
>> > Ray
>> > </HTML>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2655 - Release Date:
>> 01/29/10
>> 09:08:00
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13073 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Who was looking for a plastic Varney B unit?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13074 From: Glenn476 Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: Who was looking for a plastic Varney B unit?
You have a long memory! thanks gj
----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:16 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Who was looking for a plastic Varney B unit?


> http://cgi.ebay.com/Varney-Burlington-Dummy-F7B-HO-all-plastic_W0QQitemZ110487419677QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item19b9903b1d
>
> #110487419677
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2658 - Release Date: 01/30/10
19:35:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 13075 From: nvrr49 Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: more E-BAY
I am a member of the Yahoo Group HOYardSale. Patrick, the list owner. runs a real tight ship. I have bought and sold several items through the group. Always lots of new listing everyday.

Kent in KC
www.nvrr49.blogspot.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 13076 From: CinderCrusher Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: 8 Ball Mogul question
Interesting question Al,

My 8-Ball has a cast frame and rounded domes.

I searched back through my old Model Railroaders and found that there were both pre-war 6 volt versions of this locomotive and also post war 12 volt ones. It was the first locomotive re-issued after the production shut down for WWII. Unfortunately my MR's only go back to 1944, so I can't verify the domes or brass frame.

I did notice something from the ads that I hadn't seen before. The 1945 ads show the locomotive with only one sand dome. Mine has two with the steam dome between them. How many domes do yours have?

Bill DeFoe



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Askerberg <aiberg@...> wrote:
>
> The Mantua 8 Ball Mogul seems to have changed over time. I just
> picked up one today at a swap meet that has a brass frame, whereas
> two others I have both have cast frames. The one I got today and one
> of the others both have brass fluted domes while the third one has
> modern domes as in the catalog photo that I have seen. Did the
> earlier Moguls come with the fluted domes? They look as if they
> might be the same ones used on the Belle of the Eighties which would
> not surprise me. Can anyone enlighten me on the varieties of the
> Mogul if there indeed were some?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Al Askerberg
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13077 From: Sean Naylor Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: 8 Ball Mogul question
I sold a Mogul brass frame last year some time. It clearly had a mantua base cover plate and drivers. It was a C-channel brass frame that was machined, simular to the pacifics, atlantica and my mountain mechanism frame, if i remember correctly.
 
I believe i remember reading an old ad showing that Mantua produced and sold just frames and you were to come up with the rest of the engine. This was obviously a pre-war magazine ad.
 
Sean


From: CinderCrusher <defoe242@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 4:44:24 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 8 Ball Mogul question

 

Interesting question Al,

My 8-Ball has a cast frame and rounded domes.

I searched back through my old Model Railroaders and found that there were both pre-war 6 volt versions of this locomotive and also post war 12 volt ones. It was the first locomotive re-issued after the production shut down for WWII. Unfortunately my MR's only go back to 1944, so I can't verify the domes or brass frame.

I did notice something from the ads that I hadn't seen before. The 1945 ads show the locomotive with only one sand dome. Mine has two with the steam dome between them. How many domes do yours have?

Bill DeFoe

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Askerberg <aiberg@...> wrote:
>
> The Mantua 8 Ball Mogul seems to have changed over time. I just
> picked up one today at a swap meet that has a brass frame, whereas
> two others I have both have cast frames. The one I got today and one
> of the others both have brass fluted domes while the third one has
> modern domes as in the catalog photo that I have seen. Did the
> earlier Moguls come with the fluted domes? They look as if they
> might be the same ones used on the Belle of the Eighties which would
> not surprise me. Can anyone enlighten me on the varieties of the
> Mogul if there indeed were some?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Al Askerberg
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13078 From: jim heckard Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: 8 Ball Mogul question
Al, Bill,
 
       Would like to share my thoughts about the early Mantua productions including the Mogul. It has always been my understanding that all pre war productions of Mantua steam had brass frames and all post war had cast metal frames.
 
    First I have to ask what everyone considers, year wise, pre and post war year production. I consider pre war up till Dec 1941 and after 1945  as post war. While production during the war years was limited by material availability and the need for companies to use up parts inventories I have to feel there could be variations of production runs.
 
   Case in point. I have many early Mantua catalogs. Mine and others can be viewed on www.hoseeker.net. I have in my collection two versions of the little 0-4-0 engine with tender called the " Mighty Mite". One version has the brass engine frame, brass tender frame and cast metal tender body that is slightly different then the other. I consider this " the first production run ". The other which I call the second run has a cast engine frame, a cast tender frame and again a slightly different cast tender body. I mention this specifically to show the possibility of completely different versions and not just detail parts. This could relate to the Mogul domes
 
      I have numerous so called Mantua pre war and post war engines including 2-8-0 Consolidation, 4-4-2 Atlantic, 4-6-2 Pacific, 4-4-0 Belle of the 80's, 0-4-0t Busy Bee, 0-4-0 Mighty Mite. 0-4-0 Lil Goat and the Mogul. Even with all the information available it is hard to set a specific date on some as to when made. Now the pre war Mantua Consolidation is easy as only made pre war. The 1st versions of the Atlantic and Pacific are prewar due to different in drive and motors then the later post war versions. And Sean N's 4-8-2 Mantua Mountain, which is an extremely rare bird, are considered pre war. This body minus the boiler was advertised pre war in Mantua catalogs and later Mantua catalogs promoted a complete Mountain with tender after the war that never appeared. So much for catalogs being 100% right. Since I have found no early assembly sheets with exploded drawings I have to rely a lot on my collection pieces. Can I be 100% sure, hell no.
 
    As to motors again look at Mantua catalogs. There were 6 volt and 12 volt motors by Mantua. I have always thought 6 volt pre war and 12 volt post war. In 6 volt there were 2 styles one for the smaller steam up to the Mogul and a larger one for the Consy, Atlantic and Pacific.
 
    Again the possibility of mix and match especially on both sides of the war and even using stock up during the war is always there. Some of the best Mantua "experts" I know, many not on this site, are not entirely sure of all the facts.
 
         A lot of info here that I hope I didn't mix while writing. You can read it over 20 times and find no mistakes and hit send .Then you see the mistakes. Can share more if needed both info and pictures of my engines. Sean N's pictures are very useful as we have had many exchanges trying to sort this out.
 
                                                                           Jim H
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 4:44 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 8 Ball Mogul question

 

Interesting question Al,

My 8-Ball has a cast frame and rounded domes.

I searched back through my old Model Railroaders and found that there were both pre-war 6 volt versions of this locomotive and also post war 12 volt ones. It was the first locomotive re-issued after the production shut down for WWII. Unfortunately my MR's only go back to 1944, so I can't verify the domes or brass frame.

I did notice something from the ads that I hadn't seen before. The 1945 ads show the locomotive with only one sand dome. Mine has two with the steam dome between them. How many domes do yours have?

Bill DeFoe

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Askerberg <aiberg@...> wrote:
>
> The Mantua 8 Ball Mogul seems to have changed over time. I just
> picked up one today at a swap meet that has a brass frame, whereas
> two others I have both have cast frames. The one I got today and one
> of the others both have brass fluted domes while the third one has
> modern domes as in the catalog photo that I have seen. Did the
> earlier Moguls come with the fluted domes? They look as if they
> might be the same ones used on the Belle of the Eighties which would
> not surprise me. Can anyone enlighten me on the varieties of the
> Mogul if there indeed were some?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Al Askerberg
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13079 From: CinderCrusher Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: 8 Ball Mogul question
Jim and Sean,

Thanks for all your input.

No photos of the 8-Ball Mogul that I can find show one with two sand domes, so I believe that a prior owner added the second dome. This prior owner had blanked out half of the cab windows in an effort to modernize it, so I presume he added the extra sand dome also.

I changed motor, gearing and drivers myself to improve it's running qualities, plus Tsunami DCC and sound. I also added a PFM tender. It is now one of the smoothest running locomotives on my railroad, and it is my favorite.

There's a photo of the 8-Ball in my Cinder Valley album.

Bill DeFoe
Group: vintageHO Message: 13080 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: 1932K Varney tender question
http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionvarney/varney1932Kvanderbilttenderpg1.jpg

I am rebuilding this tender for my Mikado (came with it), and have a question:

The original assemblers did NOT pin the deck onto the body, as shown, rather used something like Ambroid.
The deck moves back and forth (cast that way....not filed out) about 1/8".
I can align the front edge of the deck with the front wall of the body, or, slide it back and align the rear walls of the oil bunker.

Which is correct?

Glass beading in the morning, not sure I'll "pin" it, but use something better than Ambroid this time.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13081 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/2/2010
Subject: eBay item 250565385531 - They have arived!
Ok all,
 
Here ar the pics of the diesels. I have decided to list them on the bay as I have no use for them. They are as was thought to be, quite crude hand made pieces. They appear to have either been started as blocks which were carved or basic shapes that were sand cast then shaped.
 
Each are hand tooled. The S1 switcher has the most detail and is bretty nicely done for such a crude method.
 
See the pics below and I would love to hear any comments on them.
 
I threw in the sideframed and the end casting for listing purposes as they seemed to fit the models and I needed to get rid of the parts anyway.
 
If you can not see the pics, I will post them on my flicker site as well.
 
Here is a link to the set I dedicated to them:
 
 
Thanks everyone!
 
Sean

 


From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 8:30:49 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:eBay item 250565385531

Hi Jim.  
I intend to post pictures as soon as it comes. Both of the diesel shells in fact.  

Sean

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 29, 2010, at 7:47 PM, "Jim Waterman" <Watermaj@...> wrote:

 

Does anyone know the heritage of that cast brass diesel locomotive shell? Very crude, but very distinctive, like someone whittled it out of a solid block of brass.
 
Jim Waterman



  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13082 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: eBay item 250565385531 - They have arived!
Hi Sean,

Fun to see these once "state of the art" models from the pre-1950's "bronze age" of HO scale modeling. The switcher seems to be a modified GARCO (Henry J. Garrett) Baldwin switcher, cast in bronze by Adams according to the Garrett advertising. Besides milling out the front radiator and side panel sections and installing screens, the modeler has also opend up and screened portions of some of the upper portions of some hood doors. The cab windows, although neatly opened, have been widened beyond the cast-on outlines and Baldwin prototype lines. They have also added the extra brass cab roof overlay, not in any of my kits or built examples. They put much time and effort into the modifications. The cast cab end and sideframes are correct for the kit.

As for that second beauty which appears to be patterned after an early EMD E unit, I have no idea, but bet it weighs plenty. Hopefully Jim H. or another of our group can identify it.

This past weekend, I picked up an untouched cast bronze GARCO EMD FT-A shell and a cast aluminum EMD E-7, will post photos shortly.

W Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
>
> Ok all,
>  
> Here ar the pics of the diesels. I have decided to list them on the bay as I have no use for them. They are as was thought to be, quite crude hand made pieces. They appear to have either been started as blocks which were carved or basic shapes that were sand cast then shaped.
>  
> Each are hand tooled. The S1 switcher has the most detail and is bretty nicely done for such a crude method.
>  
> See the pics below and I would love to hear any comments on them.
>  
> I threw in the sideframed and the end casting for listing purposes as they seemed to fit the models and I needed to get rid of the parts anyway.
>  
> If you can not see the pics, I will post them on my flicker site as well.
>
> Here is a link to the set I dedicated to them:
>  
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157623214827759/
>  
> Thanks everyone!
>  
> Sean
>
>  
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
> To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Fri, January 29, 2010 8:30:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:eBay item 250565385531
>
>
> Hi Jim.  
> I intend to post pictures as soon as it comes. Both of the diesel shells in fact.  
>
> Sean
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 29, 2010, at 7:47 PM, "Jim Waterman" <Watermaj@...> wrote:
>
>
>  
> >Does anyone know the heritage of that cast brass diesel locomotive shell? Very crude, but very distinctive, like someone whittled it out of a solid block of brass.
> > 
> >Jim Waterman
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13083 From: jim heckard Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Sean's diesels.
W Jay W, All,
 
    I can't I D Sean's heavy bronze like diesel castings.  While that Alco switcher might be Dallas Model Craft or H J Garrett cast by Adams & Sons I tend to believe the E unit is not. Even compared to other models / companies named above cast by Adams & Son and including some Varney Brass / Bronze and cast metal Vanderbilt tenders ( sold by Varney and also under the H J Garrett name, and maybe others like DMC but cast by Adams & Son ) that E unit is really crude as far as details. Sorry Sean not a complaint just a statement. Unless it was one of the first HO castings they might have tried.
 
   I have found out very little about everything H J Garrett had sold. I only have one powered switcher in an O/B with paperwork verifying it to be by H J Garrett but cast by Adams & Sons. I have never found a complete list of what H J Garrett might have sold.
 
  It seems a number of cast , bronze, brass and aluminum diesel bodies are coming up for sale. I just had a friend selling two , one bronze FT and one aluminum E unit. Even though they just went off the other day I forget if they were sold as Garrett or Dallas Model Craft but again heavy castings in materials that fine detail can't be cast in. Yet there is probably ties to all of them mentioned here to Adams & Son. Ray F W and I have even speculated the possibility that Adams & Son  also known as A&S, was more then just the casting company but may have been part or entire owners of H J Garret and / or DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ).
 
    Hey I even saw a casting by J S Cambron that I never knew about up for sale on Ebay.The seller said the name is cast inside the body which I have not seen in my diesel engines by Cambron. ( Never say never ) Throw in the possibility of a company called Hobbies Inc and there is a wealth of "unknown" vintage HO history here.
 
  No matter what I would have liked to buy them all to find out exactly what they are. Perhaps others including new members have some other info they can share
 
                                                                Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13084 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Varney F3B
To whoever steered me to the plastic Varney F3B on  eBay--thanks--and thanks to all who didn't bid me up on it.  That will give me a full ABBA set--with the two die-cast units powered and plastic dummies.   No sense dragging a couple of pounds of metal around with die-cast dummies.   gj 
 
BTW--I think I still have a couple of plastic A shells here.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13085 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Sean's diesels.
I find these crude vintage castings fascinating. But the only thing I can add is more questions.
I have an E something AB set that baffles me.

--- On Wed, 2/3/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Sean's diesels.
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 8:59 AM



W Jay W, All,
 
    I can't I D Sean's heavy bronze like diesel castings.  While that Alco switcher might be Dallas Model Craft or H J Garrett cast by Adams & Sons I tend to believe the E unit is not. Even compared to other models / companies named above cast by Adams & Son and including some Varney Brass / Bronze and cast metal Vanderbilt tenders ( sold by Varney and also under the H J Garrett name, and maybe others like DMC but cast by Adams & Son ) that E unit is really crude as far as details. Sorry Sean not a complaint just a statement. Unless it was one of the first HO castings they might have tried.
 
   I have found out very little about everything H J Garrett had sold. I only have one powered switcher in an O/B with paperwork verifying it to be by H J Garrett but cast by Adams & Sons. I have never found a complete list of what H J Garrett might have sold.
 
  It seems a number of cast , bronze, brass and aluminum diesel bodies are coming up for sale. I just had a friend selling two , one bronze FT and one aluminum E unit. Even though they just went off the other day I forget if they were sold as Garrett or Dallas Model Craft but again heavy castings in materials that fine detail can't be cast in. Yet there is probably ties to all of them mentioned here to Adams & Son. Ray F W and I have even speculated the possibility that Adams & Son  also known as A&S, was more then just the casting company but may have been part or entire owners of H J Garret and / or DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ).
 
    Hey I even saw a casting by J S Cambron that I never knew about up for sale on Ebay.The seller said the name is cast inside the body which I have not seen in my diesel engines by Cambron. ( Never say never ) Throw in the possibility of a company called Hobbies Inc and there is a wealth of "unknown" vintage HO history here..
 
  No matter what I would have liked to buy them all to find out exactly what they are. Perhaps others including new members have some other info they can share
 
                                                                Jim H



  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13086 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Wanted
Does anybody have any old AHM/Rivarossi E-units they have no use for?

I don't need good shells, just two chassis with working motors/trucks. They
can even be the old pizza cutter flanges, just so they run and they're
cheap.

Thanks

Don
Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
Group: vintageHO Message: 13087 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Sean's diesels.
Hi Jim H.,

I was the one who just bought those two from your friend, the bronze FT and the aluminum E unit. I will compare the FT-A to the mystery FT-A and FT-B pair I have and report when they arrive.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> W Jay W, All,
>
> I can't I D Sean's heavy bronze like diesel castings. While that Alco switcher might be Dallas Model Craft or H J Garrett cast by Adams & Sons I tend to believe the E unit is not. Even compared to other models / companies named above cast by Adams & Son and including some Varney Brass / Bronze and cast metal Vanderbilt tenders ( sold by Varney and also under the H J Garrett name, and maybe others like DMC but cast by Adams & Son ) that E unit is really crude as far as details. Sorry Sean not a complaint just a statement. Unless it was one of the first HO castings they might have tried.
>
> I have found out very little about everything H J Garrett had sold. I only have one powered switcher in an O/B with paperwork verifying it to be by H J Garrett but cast by Adams & Sons. I have never found a complete list of what H J Garrett might have sold.
>
> It seems a number of cast , bronze, brass and aluminum diesel bodies are coming up for sale. I just had a friend selling two , one bronze FT and one aluminum E unit. Even though they just went off the other day I forget if they were sold as Garrett or Dallas Model Craft but again heavy castings in materials that fine detail can't be cast in. Yet there is probably ties to all of them mentioned here to Adams & Son. Ray F W and I have even speculated the possibility that Adams & Son also known as A&S, was more then just the casting company but may have been part or entire owners of H J Garret and / or DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ).
>
> Hey I even saw a casting by J S Cambron that I never knew about up for sale on Ebay.The seller said the name is cast inside the body which I have not seen in my diesel engines by Cambron. ( Never say never ) Throw in the possibility of a company called Hobbies Inc and there is a wealth of "unknown" vintage HO history here.
>
> No matter what I would have liked to buy them all to find out exactly what they are. Perhaps others including new members have some other info they can share
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13088 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Sean's diesels.
Hi Ray M.,

That A-B set is very interesting, have not seen it before, very distinctive. The seperate power truck looks to be Varney's earliest, sold alone to powere any manufacturer's model. Power truck ID points to me being the shape of the gear case, passenger car side frames and overall appearance, comparing well to the one illustrated in the Varney Guide, plus matches one that I have. But those A-B castings are a complete mystery - so far! An impressive pair!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
>
> I find these crude vintage castings fascinating. But the only thing I can add is more questions.
> I have an E something AB set that baffles me.
>
> --- On Wed, 2/3/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Sean's diesels.
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 8:59 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> W Jay W, All,
>  
>     I can't I D Sean's heavy bronze like diesel castings.  While that Alco switcher might be Dallas Model Craft or H J Garrett cast by Adams & Sons I tend to believe the E unit is not. Even compared to other models / companies named above cast by Adams & Son and including some Varney Brass / Bronze and cast metal Vanderbilt tenders ( sold by Varney and also under the H J Garrett name, and maybe others like DMC but cast by Adams & Son ) that E unit is really crude as far as details. Sorry Sean not a complaint just a statement. Unless it was one of the first HO castings they might have tried.
>  
>    I have found out very little about everything H J Garrett had sold. I only have one powered switcher in an O/B with paperwork verifying it to be by H J Garrett but cast by Adams & Sons. I have never found a complete list of what H J Garrett might have sold.
>  
>   It seems a number of cast , bronze, brass and aluminum diesel bodies are coming up for sale. I just had a friend selling two , one bronze FT and one aluminum E unit. Even though they just went off the other day I forget if they were sold as Garrett or Dallas Model Craft but again heavy castings in materials that fine detail can't be cast in. Yet there is probably ties to all of them mentioned here to Adams & Son. Ray F W and I have even speculated the possibility that Adams & Son  also known as A&S, was more then just the casting company but may have been part or entire owners of H J Garret and / or DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ).
>  
>     Hey I even saw a casting by J S Cambron that I never knew about up for sale on Ebay.The seller said the name is cast inside the body which I have not seen in my diesel engines by Cambron. ( Never say never ) Throw in the possibility of a company called Hobbies Inc and there is a wealth of "unknown" vintage HO history here.
>  
>   No matter what I would have liked to buy them all to find out exactly what they are. Perhaps others including new members have some other info they can share
>  
>                                                                 Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13089 From: jim heckard Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: check these
W Jay W, All,
 
   Glad to know where those 2 diesel bodies went. The seller is a good train buddy, Jeff R, from Playa Del Rey CA and Long Island N Y. Jeff was a member of the old Dave Spanagel group ( HOSC&H-SIG ) and an extremely knowledgeable man when it comes to vintage HO. Sean N and Jeff would get along real good as both have rather large collections of what I would call unusual, unique  pieces.
 
    Since you are going to compare one of them to your FT units you'll have to check these pictures out too . I think I might have shown before. These are GARCO  ( H J Garrett ) FT A & B units. I'm not sure if the box they came in is original ( see third picture ) but the motto is interesting. They are a brass more then a bronze. As I'm not a metallurgist it's hard to tell if pure cast brass or an alloy. That goes for a lot of these items just like the two you just bought. Bronze or alloy, Aluminum or alloy ?
 
   Let me know if you find out anything new about those diesel bodies you won.
 
                                                                         Jim
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13090 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: Sean's diesels.
Hi All,
 
Thanks for all the comments and views of my two diesels. My flickr stats flew through the roof yesterday which was pretty cool as I can see how many times each photo was looked at.
 
I found it interesting to look at the shells myself as am sure some of you also did. I have them listed as they really do not fit with my collection. If someone is interested in them, I have them listed. They end today and there are not may people watching them as I expected there not to be anyway considering their age, incomplete condition and rough honed nature.
If they do not sell and anyone within the group is interested, please contact me off line and I am sure we can work something out to take these off my hands.
 
Sean

From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 5:55:50 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sean's diesels.

 

Hi Ray M.,

That A-B set is very interesting, have not seen it before, very distinctive. The seperate power truck looks to be Varney's earliest, sold alone to powere any manufacturer' s model. Power truck ID points to me being the shape of the gear case, passenger car side frames and overall appearance, comparing well to the one illustrated in the Varney Guide, plus matches one that I have. But those A-B castings are a complete mystery - so far! An impressive pair!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@ ...> wrote:
>
> I find these crude vintage castings fascinating. But the only thing I can add is more questions.
> I have an E something AB set that baffles me.
>
> --- On Wed, 2/3/10, jim heckard <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@... >
> Subject: [vintageHO] Sean's diesels.
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 8:59 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> W Jay W, All,
>  
>     I can't I D Sean's heavy bronze like diesel castings.  While that Alco switcher might be Dallas Model Craft or H J Garrett cast by Adams & Sons I tend to believe the E unit is not. Even compared to other models / companies named above cast by Adams & Son and including some Varney Brass / Bronze and cast metal Vanderbilt tenders ( sold by Varney and also under the H J Garrett name, and maybe others like DMC but cast by Adams & Son ) that E unit is really crude as far as details. Sorry Sean not a complaint just a statement. Unless it was one of the first HO castings they might have tried.
>  
>    I have found out very little about everything H J Garrett had sold. I only have one powered switcher in an O/B with paperwork verifying it to be by H J Garrett but cast by Adams & Sons. I have never found a complete list of what H J Garrett might have sold.
>  
>   It seems a number of cast , bronze, brass and aluminum diesel bodies are coming up for sale. I just had a friend selling two , one bronze FT and one aluminum E unit. Even though they just went off the other day I forget if they were sold as Garrett or Dallas Model Craft but again heavy castings in materials that fine detail can't be cast in. Yet there is probably ties to all of them mentioned here to Adams & Son. Ray F W and I have even speculated the possibility that Adams & Son  also known as A&S, was more then just the casting company but may have been part or entire owners of H J Garret and / or DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ).
>  
>     Hey I even saw a casting by J S Cambron that I never knew about up for sale on Ebay.The seller said the name is cast inside the body which I have not seen in my diesel engines by Cambron. ( Never say never ) Throw in the possibility of a company called Hobbies Inc and there is a wealth of "unknown" vintage HO history here.
>  
>   No matter what I would have liked to buy them all to find out exactly what they are. Perhaps others including new members have some other info they can share
>  
>                                                                 Jim H
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13091 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: check these
Hi Jim H.,

Thanks for posting your photographs of your FT A and B unit. They apear to be identical with mine, except that on mine, the portholes have been expertly and evenly drilled out and there are two small 3/16"? holes drilled in the center of each solid windshield panel (perhaps as starter holes for a jewler's saw?) By looking at Jeff R.'s eBay image of the unit I just purchased, Item number: 110486305933 and also GARCO's period ads, their FT units appear to additionally include the raised center roof secition for the dynamic brake cooling vent housings, but otherwise seeming very similar to what was sold by the jobber Theo. Parker and perhaps others. I look forward to having them side by side for comparison!

BTW, I mentioned to Jeff R. the number of former Dave Spanagel group ( HOSC&H-SIG )members who were here and hoped he would sign on with us.

W Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> W Jay W, All,
>
> Glad to know where those 2 diesel bodies went. The seller is a good train buddy, Jeff R, from Playa Del Rey CA and Long Island N Y. Jeff was a member of the old Dave Spanagel group ( HOSC&H-SIG ) and an extremely knowledgeable man when it comes to vintage HO. Sean N and Jeff would get along real good as both have rather large collections of what I would call unusual, unique pieces.
>
> Since you are going to compare one of them to your FT units you'll have to check these pictures out too . I think I might have shown before. These are GARCO ( H J Garrett ) FT A & B units. I'm not sure if the box they came in is original ( see third picture ) but the motto is interesting. They are a brass more then a bronze. As I'm not a metallurgist it's hard to tell if pure cast brass or an alloy. That goes for a lot of these items just like the two you just bought. Bronze or alloy, Aluminum or alloy ?
>
> Let me know if you find out anything new about those diesel bodies you won.
>
> Jim
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13092 From: jim heckard Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: check these
   W Jay W,
 
        While Jeff R would be a valuable member to this group he had always told me he didn't have time for all the Emails that would be associated with it. If you can change his mind go for it. If in the course of you finalizing the auction you exchange pleasantries, mention me. He will probably charge you double ( Ha Ha )
 
                                                                         Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:20 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: check these

 

Hi Jim H.,

Thanks for posting your photographs of your FT A and B unit. They apear to be identical with mine, except that on mine, the portholes have been expertly and evenly drilled out and there are two small 3/16"? holes drilled in the center of each solid windshield panel (perhaps as starter holes for a jewler's saw?) By looking at Jeff R.'s eBay image of the unit I just purchased, Item number: 110486305933 and also GARCO's period ads, their FT units appear to additionally include the raised center roof secition for the dynamic brake cooling vent housings, but otherwise seeming very similar to what was sold by the jobber Theo. Parker and perhaps others. I look forward to having them side by side for comparison!

BTW, I mentioned to Jeff R. the number of former Dave Spanagel group ( HOSC&H-SIG )members who were here and hoped he would sign on with us.

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> W Jay W, All,
>
> Glad to know where those 2 diesel bodies went. The seller is a good train buddy, Jeff R, from Playa Del Rey CA and Long Island N Y. Jeff was a member of the old Dave Spanagel group ( HOSC&H-SIG ) and an extremely knowledgeable man when it comes to vintage HO. Sean N and Jeff would get along real good as both have rather large collections of what I would call unusual, unique pieces.
>
> Since you are going to compare one of them to your FT units you'll have to check these pictures out too . I think I might have shown before. These are GARCO ( H J Garrett ) FT A & B units. I'm not sure if the box they came in is original ( see third picture ) but the motto is interesting. They are a brass more then a bronze. As I'm not a metallurgist it's hard to tell if pure cast brass or an alloy. That goes for a lot of these items just like the two you just bought. Bronze or alloy, Aluminum or alloy ?
>
> Let me know if you find out anything new about those diesel bodies you won.
>
> Jim
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13093 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: PRR postal/baggage decals
Hi, Group,
Building a JC Silversides PRR postal/baggage car and cannot find decals for it anywhere that don't charge $8 shipping fee. Anyone have a set in a drawer somewhere?
 
Art
 
In a message dated 2/4/2010 9:55:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, a69mustang4me@... writes:


Hi All,
 
Thanks for all the comments and views of my two diesels. My flickr stats flew through the roof yesterday which was pretty cool as I can see how many times each photo was looked at.
 
I found it interesting to look at the shells myself as am sure some of you also did. I have them listed as they really do not fit with my collection. If someone is interested in them, I have them listed. They end today and there are not may people watching them as I expected there not to be anyway considering their age, incomplete condition and rough honed nature.
If they do not sell and anyone within the group is interested, please contact me off line and I am sure we can work something out to take these off my hands.
 
Sean

From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 5:55:50 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sean's diesels.

 

Hi Ray M.,

That A-B set is very interesting, have not seen it before, very distinctive. The seperate power truck looks to be Varney's earliest, sold alone to powere any manufacturer' s model. Power truck ID points to me being the shape of the gear case, passenger car side frames and overall appearance, comparing well to the one illustrated in the Varney Guide, plus matches one that I have. But those A-B castings are a complete mystery - so far! An impressive pair!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@ ...> wrote:
>
> I find these crude vintage castings fascinating. But the only thing I can add is more questions.
> I have an E something AB set that baffles me.
>
> --- On Wed, 2/3/10, jim heckard <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@... >
> Subject: [vintageHO] Sean's diesels.
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 8:59 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> W Jay W, All,
>  
>     I can't I D Sean's heavy bronze like diesel castings.  While that Alco switcher might be Dallas Model Craft or H J Garrett cast by Adams & Sons I tend to believe the E unit is not. Even compared to other models / companies named above cast by Adams & Son and including some Varney Brass / Bronze and cast metal Vanderbilt tenders ( sold by Varney and also under the H J Garrett name, and maybe others like DMC but cast by Adams & Son ) that E unit is really crude as far as details. Sorry Sean not a complaint just a statement. Unless it was one of the first HO castings they might have tried.
>  
>    I have found out very little about everything H J Garrett had sold. I only have one powered switcher in an O/B with paperwork verifying it to be by H J Garrett but cast by Adams & Sons. I have never found a complete list of what H J Garrett might have sold.
>  
>   It seems a number of cast , bronze, brass and aluminum diesel bodies are coming up for sale. I just had a friend selling two , one bronze FT and one aluminum E unit. Even though they just went off the other day I forget if they were sold as Garrett or Dallas Model Craft but again heavy castings in materials that fine detail can't be cast in. Yet there is probably ties to all of them mentioned here to Adams & Son. Ray F W and I have even speculated the possibility that Adams & Son  also known as A&S, was more then just the casting company but may have been part or entire owners of H J Garret and / or DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ).
>  
>     Hey I even saw a casting by J S Cambron that I never knew about up for sale on Ebay.The seller said the name is cast inside the body which I have not seen in my diesel engines by Cambron. ( Never say never ) Throw in the possibility of a company called Hobbies Inc and there is a wealth of "unknown" vintage HO history here.
>  
>   No matter what I would have liked to buy them all to find out exactly what they are. Perhaps others including new members have some other info they can share
>  
>                                                                 Jim H
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13094 From: Robert Driggers Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Draw bar screws
I need some draw bar screws for Rivarossi tenders. Can anyone help?
Robert
 

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: luvprr@...
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 16:03:05 -0500
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: PRR postal/baggage decals

 
Hi, Group,
Building a JC Silversides PRR postal/baggage car and cannot find decals for it anywhere that don't charge $8 shipping fee. Anyone have a set in a drawer somewhere?
 
Art
 
In a message dated 2/4/2010 9:55:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com writes:


Hi All,
 
Thanks for all the comments and views of my two diesels. My flickr stats flew through the roof yesterday which was pretty cool as I can see how many times each photo was looked at.
 
I found it interesting to look at the shells myself as am sure some of you also did. I have them listed as they really do not fit with my collection. If someone is interested in them, I have them listed. They end today and there are not may people watching them as I expected there not to be anyway considering their age, incomplete condition and rough honed nature.
If they do not sell and anyone within the group is interested, please contact me off line and I am sure we can work something out to take these off my hands.
 
Sean

From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 5:55:50 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sean's diesels.

 

Hi Ray M.,

That A-B set is very interesting, have not seen it before, very distinctive. The seperate power truck looks to be Varney's earliest, sold alone to powere any manufacturer' s model. Power truck ID points to me being the shape of the gear case, passenger car side frames and overall appearance, comparing well to the one illustrated in the Varney Guide, plus matches one that I have. But those A-B castings are a complete mystery - so far! An impressive pair!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@ ...> wrote:
>
> I find these crude vintage castings fascinating. But the only thing I can add is more questions.
> I have an E something AB set that baffles me.
>
> --- On Wed, 2/3/10, jim heckard <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@... >
> Subject: [vintageHO] Sean's diesels.
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 8:59 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> W Jay W, All,
>  
>     I can't I D Sean's heavy bronze like diesel castings.  While that Alco switcher might be Dallas Model Craft or H J Garrett cast by Adams & Sons I tend to believe the E unit is not. Even compared to other models / companies named above cast by Adams & Son and including some Varney Brass / Bronze and cast metal Vanderbilt tenders ( sold by Varney and also under the H J Garrett name, and maybe others like DMC but cast by Adams & Son ) that E unit is really crude as far as details. Sorry Sean not a complaint just a statement. Unless it was one of the first HO castings they might have tried.
>  
>    I have found out very little about everything H J Garrett had sold. I only have one powered switcher in an O/B with paperwork verifying it to be by H J Garrett but cast by Adams & Sons. I have never found a complete list of what H J Garrett might have sold.
>  
>   It seems a number of cast , bronze, brass and aluminum diesel bodies are coming up for sale. I just had a friend selling two , one bronze FT and one aluminum E unit. Even though they just went off the other day I forget if they were sold as Garrett or Dallas Model Craft but again heavy castings in materials that fine detail can't be cast in. Yet there is probably ties to all of them mentioned here to Adams & Son. Ray F W and I have even speculated the possibility that Adams & Son  also known as A&S, was more then just the casting company but may have been part or entire owners of H J Garret and / or DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ).
>  
>     Hey I even saw a casting by J S Cambron that I never knew about up for sale on Ebay.The seller said the name is cast inside the body which I have not seen in my diesel engines by Cambron. ( Never say never ) Throw in the possibility of a company called Hobbies Inc and there is a wealth of "unknown" vintage HO history here.
>  
>   No matter what I would have liked to buy them all to find out exactly what they are. Perhaps others including new members have some other info they can share
>  
>                                                                 Jim H
>






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Group: vintageHO Message: 13095 From: Wally Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Parts for an Athearn/Lionel 0591 Rectifier New Haven Electric locomo
I have an Athearn/Lionel 0591 Rectifier New Haven Electric locomotive which is missing the handrails and posts. I have tried sets from other Athearn locomotives but none fit properly. I have contacted part suppliers and Athearn without success.

Does anyone in this group have a set they would sell or can suggest a source?

I have been told that the Lionel version did not come with handrails but I have a Lionel Virginian Rectifier which came with handrails and posts.

I am not a collector so I have replaced both frames and motors with flywheel equipped parts from a modern Athearn GP-7. I have also added directional lighting and additional details. I used these on my model RR so while they may not be collectable, they are in service.

Thanks!!

Wally
Group: vintageHO Message: 13096 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: check these
Hi Jim H., Ha! I did and he didn't raise his price! But a valid point; there are some times when everything else crowds my schedule, too and I can't research and post in detail, but try to read all new posts each day and keep learning. W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> W Jay W,
>
> While Jeff R would be a valuable member to this group he had always told me he didn't have time for all the Emails that would be associated with it. If you can change his mind go for it. If in the course of you finalizing the auction you exchange pleasantries, mention me. He will probably charge you double ( Ha Ha )
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:20 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: check these
>
>
>
> Hi Jim H.,
>
> Thanks for posting your photographs of your FT A and B unit. They apear to be identical with mine, except that on mine, the portholes have been expertly and evenly drilled out and there are two small 3/16"? holes drilled in the center of each solid windshield panel (perhaps as starter holes for a jewler's saw?) By looking at Jeff R.'s eBay image of the unit I just purchased, Item number: 110486305933 and also GARCO's period ads, their FT units appear to additionally include the raised center roof secition for the dynamic brake cooling vent housings, but otherwise seeming very similar to what was sold by the jobber Theo. Parker and perhaps others. I look forward to having them side by side for comparison!
>
> BTW, I mentioned to Jeff R. the number of former Dave Spanagel group ( HOSC&H-SIG )members who were here and hoped he would sign on with us.
>
> W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
> >
> > W Jay W, All,
> >
> > Glad to know where those 2 diesel bodies went. The seller is a good train buddy, Jeff R, from Playa Del Rey CA and Long Island N Y. Jeff was a member of the old Dave Spanagel group ( HOSC&H-SIG ) and an extremely knowledgeable man when it comes to vintage HO. Sean N and Jeff would get along real good as both have rather large collections of what I would call unusual, unique pieces.
> >
> > Since you are going to compare one of them to your FT units you'll have to check these pictures out too . I think I might have shown before. These are GARCO ( H J Garrett ) FT A & B units. I'm not sure if the box they came in is original ( see third picture ) but the motto is interesting. They are a brass more then a bronze. As I'm not a metallurgist it's hard to tell if pure cast brass or an alloy. That goes for a lot of these items just like the two you just bought. Bronze or alloy, Aluminum or alloy ?
> >
> > Let me know if you find out anything new about those diesel bodies you won.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13097 From: jim heckard Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: Parts for an Athearn/Lionel 0591 Rectifier New Haven Electric lo
    Wally,
 
     Let me quote from the Greenberg Guide to Lionel HO Trains by Vince Rosa and George Horan Page 45 as it pertains to Lionel's 0591 Rectifier  "sold without handrails although stanchion holes are present". Lionel was the only one who made the New Haven factory painted body.  I don't remember any of the Athearn or Athearn / Lionel factory painted Virginian engines ( pages 23 & 24, pictures and written text ) having factory installed handrails although again holes present.
      However even though you have a Lionel Virginian rectifier engine with stanchions and hand rails I believe they are not original although I'm sure there are sets by others that can be used. Maybe even from other types of Athearn engines. Most likely your Virginian Rectifier was modified having railing installed by a previous owner. Good luck in your search.
 
                                                              Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Wally
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:34 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Parts for an Athearn/Lionel 0591 Rectifier New Haven Electric locomotive

 

I have an Athearn/Lionel 0591 Rectifier New Haven Electric locomotive which is missing the handrails and posts. I have tried sets from other Athearn locomotives but none fit properly. I have contacted part suppliers and Athearn without success.

Does anyone in this group have a set they would sell or can suggest a source?

I have been told that the Lionel version did not come with handrails but I have a Lionel Virginian Rectifier which came with handrails and posts.

I am not a collector so I have replaced both frames and motors with flywheel equipped parts from a modern Athearn GP-7. I have also added directional lighting and additional details. I used these on my model RR so while they may not be collectable, they are in service.

Thanks!!

Wally

Group: vintageHO Message: 13098 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: PRR postal/baggage decals
Hi Art -

I have a set of Clover House 7784-23 dry transfers for PRR RPO car, if they will do you any good.  Please reply to my AOL address.

Reed



-----Original Message-----
From: luvprr@...
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Feb 4, 2010 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: PRR postal/baggage decals

 
Hi, Group,
Building a JC Silversides PRR postal/baggage car and cannot find decals for it anywhere that don't charge $8 shipping fee. Anyone have a set in a drawer somewhere?
 
Art
 

_.___

.

Group: vintageHO Message: 13099 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 2/5/2010
Subject: Wanted
Don Dellmann wrote:
 
< Does anybody have any old AHM/Rivarossi E-units they have no use for?
My computer inventory shows that I have two, one powered and one dummy.  I'd be more than happy to keep the shells and send you the frame and trucks.  It'll take me a couple of days to get at them, though; my chronic back problem that keeps me from bending over too much started acting up again and most of my locos are on the bottom shelves in the basement.
 
Ralph B
Group: vintageHO Message: 13100 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/5/2010
Subject: Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7
Hi Jim H. and All,

The sand cast aluminum E-7 body that I just purchased from Jeff and that was provisonally listed as a Henry J. Garrett model has been positively identified as a Cambron model. Its quality appearance matches the Cambron Alco PA's shown in your photo album. How do I know it is by Cambron? This was too easy. Cast on the inside wall are the letters "Cambron" almost 1/4" high! Here is a link to the ebay listing as the photo is in a format that I am having trouble posting here.

http://tinyurl.com/yao65xr

I remeber seeing ads for these, so will have to find it and see if they made a "B" unit. The hunt is on!

W Jay W.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13101 From: Charlie Date: 2/5/2010
Subject: Re: Wanted
Hi Alpvalsys

I would be interested in the shell(s) one or two.

Thanks

Charlie Harris
New Zealand



Alpvalsys@... wrote:
>
> Don Dellmann wrote:
> < Does anybody have any old AHM/Rivarossi E-units they have no use for?
> My computer inventory shows that I have two, one powered and one
> dummy. I'd be more than happy to keep the shells and send you the
> frame and trucks. It'll take me a couple of days to get at them,
> though; my chronic back problem that keeps me from bending over too
> much started acting up again and most of my locos are on the bottom
> shelves in the basement.
> Ralph B
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13102 From: George Frey Date: 2/5/2010
Subject: Re: Wanted
if you reread his message he says he will "keep the shells and send you the frames for the two rivorsi units he has  if that is what you want then go for it.


From: Charlie <charlie@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 5, 2010 9:38:25 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Wanted

Hi Alpvalsys

I would be interested in the shell(s) one or two.

Thanks

Charlie Harris
New Zealand



Alpvalsys@... wrote:
>
> Don Dellmann wrote:
> < Does anybody have any old AHM/Rivarossi E-units they have no use for?
> My computer inventory shows that I have two, one powered and one
> dummy. I'd be more than happy to keep the shells and send you the
> frame and trucks. It'll take me a couple of days to get at them,
> though; my chronic back problem
that keeps me from bending over too
> much started acting up again and most of my locos are on the bottom
> shelves in the basement.
> Ralph B
>


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Group: vintageHO Message: 13103 From: jim heckard Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7
       Good to know you were able to ID. I'm most surprised that Jeff R had not identified it properly. I have to call him and rag on him ( pick on  him in jest ) for that. He loves to do it to me.
 
      Another odd thing is my PA's are a type of cast brass while the E unit is cast Aluminum. While many companies did use different materials this is still nice to know. For being a cast brass my Cambron PA's are fairly nicely detailed. How good or bad is that E unit.
 
     Although you have the ID already you must be careful about a company called Hobbies Inc. Very similar in look and materials using both also. Hope you'll like it. If not I know a place that would be a good home.
 
                                           Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7

 

Hi Jim H. and All,

The sand cast aluminum E-7 body that I just purchased from Jeff and that was provisonally listed as a Henry J. Garrett model has been positively identified as a Cambron model. Its quality appearance matches the Cambron Alco PA's shown in your photo album. How do I know it is by Cambron? This was too easy. Cast on the inside wall are the letters "Cambron" almost 1/4" high! Here is a link to the ebay listing as the photo is in a format that I am having trouble posting here.

http://tinyurl. com/yao65xr

I remeber seeing ads for these, so will have to find it and see if they made a "B" unit. The hunt is on!

W Jay W.

Group: vintageHO Message: 13104 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Train show
I haven't done any train shows in almost 10 years.

But, got roped into one today.

Found three English heavyweights (less tucks) for $18 total.
Not too bad.

Got a bag of wood and cardstock cars for $10.

Got freebies.....the top to a Revell pickle car (have 3/4 of one now), and a handful of track, and a bag of turnouts.

Good day.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13105 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Megow's
Two cars I picked up today appear to be Megow's reefers.
Both are white Lackawanna Refigereator Line, cardboard and wood.
Did Megow provide trucks?
Or, what kind of trucks did they use?
I have some older trucks I can use.

On another subject, these have Mantuas on them (staying), but one of the other cars has what looks like Mantuas, but the loop is about half as wide.
Who made those?

Got another car (Varney, it appears), with some odd coupler.....casy soft or pot meta with a metal rod sticking straight out the side towards the end, with a piece of spring wire, downward-facing hook on the end (to catch the opposing coupler) and a loop on the other (after a pivot) to lift and uncouple.

Who made dat?

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13106 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
Megow had a coupler that was somewhat similar in concept to Mantuas, a square look with a hook at the end. I have gotten them to work with Mantua loops.

That last coupler, I have some cars in both O scale and HO with it, and I have wondered about it too.

I still have the O scale versions, and can upload pictures of them if need be (The HO version is identical, except for size). I am pretty sure they are prewar, from the late 1930s, as that was the age of the Walthers cars that had them.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 2/6/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Megow's
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 6:29 PM

 

Two cars I picked up today appear to be Megow's reefers.
Both are white Lackawanna Refigereator Line, cardboard and wood.
Did Megow provide trucks?
Or, what kind of trucks did they use?
I have some older trucks I can use.

On another subject, these have Mantuas on them (staying), but one of the other cars has what looks like Mantuas, but the loop is about half as wide.
Who made those?

Got another car (Varney, it appears), with some odd coupler..... casy soft or pot meta with a metal rod sticking straight out the side towards the end, with a piece of spring wire, downward-facing hook on the end (to catch the opposing coupler) and a loop on the other (after a pivot) to lift and uncouple.

Who made dat?

Dave

Group: vintageHO Message: 13107 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
Okay!
Well, I have even MORE Megow units here.

Lackawanna Refrigerator Line, Q-20.
Gulf wood tank car, Q-25.
Fruit Grower's Express Reefer Q-3.
E. Kahn's Reefer, Q-5.
And possibly a caboose (less cupola)


>
> Megow had a coupler that was somewhat similar in concept to Mantuas, a square look with a hook at the end. I have gotten them to work with Mantua loops.
>
> That last coupler, I have some cars in both O scale and HO with it, and I have wondered about it too.
>
> I still have the O scale versions, and can upload pictures of them if need be (The HO version is identical, except for size). I am pretty sure they are prewar, from the late 1930s, as that was the age of the Walthers cars that had them.
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
> --- On Sat, 2/6/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Megow's
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 6:29 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Two cars I picked up today appear to be Megow's reefers.
>
> Both are white Lackawanna Refigereator Line, cardboard and wood.
>
> Did Megow provide trucks?
>
> Or, what kind of trucks did they use?
>
> I have some older trucks I can use.
>
>
>
> On another subject, these have Mantuas on them (staying), but one of the other cars has what looks like Mantuas, but the loop is about half as wide.
>
> Who made those?
>
>
>
> Got another car (Varney, it appears), with some odd coupler..... casy soft or pot meta with a metal rod sticking straight out the side towards the end, with a piece of spring wire, downward-facing hook on the end (to catch the opposing coupler) and a loop on the other (after a pivot) to lift and uncouple.
>
>
>
> Who made dat?
>
>
>
> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13108 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
The caboose - is it a B&O?

I have a card and wood Megow caboose, lettered for the B&O. Mine was a wreck when I got it in an assortment of stuff on fleaBay. Mostly the roof, paper corner steps, and cupola were bad up.

With some work, it runs again and looks decent now. Still needs corner steps though.

Might take a picture of it tonight.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 2/6/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Megow's
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 7:52 PM

 


Okay!
Well, I have even MORE Megow units here.

Lackawanna Refrigerator Line, Q-20.
Gulf wood tank car, Q-25.
Fruit Grower's Express Reefer Q-3.
E. Kahn's Reefer, Q-5.
And possibly a caboose (less cupola)

>
> Megow had a coupler that was somewhat similar in concept to Mantuas, a square look with a hook at the end. I have gotten them to work with Mantua loops.
>
> That last coupler, I have some cars in both O scale and HO with it, and I have wondered about it too.
>
> I still have the O scale versions, and can upload pictures of them if need be (The HO version is identical, except for size). I am pretty sure they are prewar, from the late 1930s, as that was the age of the Walthers cars that had them.
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
> --- On Sat, 2/6/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ ...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Megow's
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 6:29 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Two cars I picked up today appear to be Megow's reefers.
>
> Both are white Lackawanna Refigereator Line, cardboard and wood.
>
> Did Megow provide trucks?
>
> Or, what kind of trucks did they use?
>
> I have some older trucks I can use.
>
>
>
> On another subject, these have Mantuas on them (staying), but one of the other cars has what looks like Mantuas, but the loop is about half as wide.
>
> Who made those?
>
>
>
> Got another car (Varney, it appears), with some odd coupler..... casy soft or pot meta with a metal rod sticking straight out the side towards the end, with a piece of spring wire, downward-facing hook on the end (to catch the opposing coupler) and a loop on the other (after a pivot) to lift and uncouple.
>
>
>
> Who made dat?
>
>
>
> Dave
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13109 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
OK, before I go to bed (Had to take pain meds for back problem today) real soon, here is a picture of a Megow caboose and hopper. Picture is crummy because my camera could not focus correctly (A bit dark in here for its liking).

The roof is new, and painted black because I liked that better than red (Don't care about what is prototypical - this is my railroad!), coupled to a Megow hopper car.

They did a LOT of B&O cars - also a wagon top boxcar and a B&O gondola too!

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 2/6/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Megow's
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 7:52 PM

 


Okay!
Well, I have even MORE Megow units here.

Lackawanna Refrigerator Line, Q-20.
Gulf wood tank car, Q-25.
Fruit Grower's Express Reefer Q-3.
E. Kahn's Reefer, Q-5.
And possibly a caboose (less cupola)

>
> Megow had a coupler that was somewhat similar in concept to Mantuas, a square look with a hook at the end. I have gotten them to work with Mantua loops.
>
> That last coupler, I have some cars in both O scale and HO with it, and I have wondered about it too.
>
> I still have the O scale versions, and can upload pictures of them if need be (The HO version is identical, except for size). I am pretty sure they are prewar, from the late 1930s, as that was the age of the Walthers cars that had them.
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
> --- On Sat, 2/6/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ ...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Megow's
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 6:29 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Two cars I picked up today appear to be Megow's reefers.
>
> Both are white Lackawanna Refigereator Line, cardboard and wood.
>
> Did Megow provide trucks?
>
> Or, what kind of trucks did they use?
>
> I have some older trucks I can use.
>
>
>
> On another subject, these have Mantuas on them (staying), but one of the other cars has what looks like Mantuas, but the loop is about half as wide.
>
> Who made those?
>
>
>
> Got another car (Varney, it appears), with some odd coupler..... casy soft or pot meta with a metal rod sticking straight out the side towards the end, with a piece of spring wire, downward-facing hook on the end (to catch the opposing coupler) and a loop on the other (after a pivot) to lift and uncouple.
>
>
>
> Who made dat?
>
>
>
> Dave
>

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13110 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
I just remembered something about Megows trucks:

Not sure if they were separate sale or came with the cars, but Megow did make trucks. I have a few of the envelopes they came in. Two distinct designs, even.

One was a basic (I mean, very, very basic) bettendorf style high center, which was made of stamped parts and worked like a Varney pivoted sideframe truck.

The other was a Varney lookalike, more or less, like their high center rigid trucks.

I would have mentioned it earlier, but I forgot about these. Still feeling a bit 'out of it', with my pain meds.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 2/6/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Megow's
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 6:29 PM

 

Two cars I picked up today appear to be Megow's reefers.
Both are white Lackawanna Refigereator Line, cardboard and wood.
Did Megow provide trucks?
Or, what kind of trucks did they use?
I have some older trucks I can use.

On another subject, these have Mantuas on them (staying), but one of the other cars has what looks like Mantuas, but the loop is about half as wide.
Who made those?

Got another car (Varney, it appears), with some odd coupler..... casy soft or pot meta with a metal rod sticking straight out the side towards the end, with a piece of spring wire, downward-facing hook on the end (to catch the opposing coupler) and a loop on the other (after a pivot) to lift and uncouple.

Who made dat?

Dave

Group: vintageHO Message: 13111 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Another question
Have a boxcar in this batch.

Embossed cardbard sides, wood floor and roof.
Stamped brass ends, stamped brass doot, sides go all the way across (no opening in the body behind the door), Varney sold frame trucks.

So, I think it's a Varney.

The sides.
"SP".
Now, I have one similar, silver, black details, figured this was silver, but really bad....almost tarnished.
It looked like it was varnished, so I cleaned all the mess of paint off, and the varnish.
The "SP" is still there, but there is no paint.
It looks like....cardboard, or, like a real plywood sheathed car that wasn't painted.
I haven't yet discovered what exactly it it, or what color it was suposed to be.

Sound familiar?
Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13112 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/6/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
No, not B&O.
I'd seen the B&O one listed.
I have searched all through HOSeeker, nothing yet.

Denver and Rio Grande Western.

The letter board and markings are cut out of cardstock and glued on.
Cardboard curved roof (I think).

The underside of the floor is flat, no sill at all.

Dave

>
> The caboose - is it a B&O?
>
> I have a card and wood Megow caboose, lettered for the B&O. Mine was a wreck when I got it in an assortment of stuff on fleaBay. Mostly the roof, paper corner steps, and cupola were bad up.
>
> With some work, it runs again and looks decent now. Still needs corner steps though.
>
> Might take a picture of it tonight.
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
> --- On Sat, 2/6/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Megow's
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 7:52 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Okay!
>
> Well, I have even MORE Megow units here.
>
>
>
> Lackawanna Refrigerator Line, Q-20.
>
> Gulf wood tank car, Q-25.
>
> Fruit Grower's Express Reefer Q-3.
>
> E. Kahn's Reefer, Q-5.
>
> And possibly a caboose (less cupola)
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Megow had a coupler that was somewhat similar in concept to Mantuas, a square look with a hook at the end. I have gotten them to work with Mantua loops.
>
> >
>
> > That last coupler, I have some cars in both O scale and HO with it, and I have wondered about it too.
>
> >
>
> > I still have the O scale versions, and can upload pictures of them if need be (The HO version is identical, except for size). I am pretty sure they are prewar, from the late 1930s, as that was the age of the Walthers cars that had them.
>
> >
>
> > -Steve Neubaum
>
> >
>
> > --- On Sat, 2/6/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ ...> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ ...>
>
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Megow's
>
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
>
> > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 6:29 PM
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >  
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Two cars I picked up today appear to be Megow's reefers.
>
> >
>
> > Both are white Lackawanna Refigereator Line, cardboard and wood.
>
> >
>
> > Did Megow provide trucks?
>
> >
>
> > Or, what kind of trucks did they use?
>
> >
>
> > I have some older trucks I can use.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On another subject, these have Mantuas on them (staying), but one of the other cars has what looks like Mantuas, but the loop is about half as wide.
>
> >
>
> > Who made those?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Got another car (Varney, it appears), with some odd coupler..... casy soft or pot meta with a metal rod sticking straight out the side towards the end, with a piece of spring wire, downward-facing hook on the end (to catch the opposing coupler) and a loop on the other (after a pivot) to lift and uncouple.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Who made dat?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Dave
>
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13113 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: Another question
Moderator hat on.

Not regarding this particular car, but all requests such as these. It would
be much easier if people could attach photos, either as attachments to the
message or in an album on the group home page. I think most of us have
access these days to a digital camera or even a camera phone, or if we don't
have one know someone who does. It would make identification so much
easier.

Moderator hat off.

Thanks

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 11:35 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Another question


> Have a boxcar in this batch.
>
> Embossed cardbard sides, wood floor and roof.
> Stamped brass ends, stamped brass doot, sides go all the way across (no
> opening in the body behind the door), Varney sold frame trucks.
>
> So, I think it's a Varney.
>
> The sides.
> "SP".
> Now, I have one similar, silver, black details, figured this was silver,
> but really bad....almost tarnished.
> It looked like it was varnished, so I cleaned all the mess of paint off,
> and the varnish.
> The "SP" is still there, but there is no paint.
> It looks like....cardboard, or, like a real plywood sheathed car that
> wasn't painted.
> I haven't yet discovered what exactly it it, or what color it was suposed
> to be.
>
> Sound familiar?
> Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13114 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: Megows
I have attached two pages scanned from the 1941 Megow catalog that show the trucks availabe at the time.
 
Larry

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13115 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: Megows [2 Attachments]
Yup, I have examples of those trucks.

The 'old style' stamped ones, I never built up either. I even have the envelopes they came in too!

I kind of like Megow's rolling stock. The caboose was (And still sort of is) a challenge to restore. I thought it was destined for being put away in a box when I got it, till I started thinking more about restoring it, and what it would really take.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sun, 2/7/10, Lawrence Orr <mh18fd@...> wrote:

From: Lawrence Orr <mh18fd@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Megows [2 Attachments]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 10:52 AM

 

I have attached two pages scanned from the 1941 Megow catalog that show the trucks availabe at the time.
 
Larry

Group: vintageHO Message: 13116 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: Megows [2 Attachments]
Thanks for the page from the 1941 catalog. I now have a nice addition to the box in which I keep the PRR coach kit I built a few months ago! Cool!
 
In a message dated 2/7/2010 12:30:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mh18fd@... writes:
[Attachment(s) from Lawrence Orr included below]

I have attached two pages scanned from the 1941 Megow catalog that show the trucks availabe at the time.
 
Larry

Group: vintageHO Message: 13117 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: Megows [2 Attachments]
I remember the Megow trucks--even at 8 years old I considered them "bottom of the line"--I would build Strombecker cars--adding grab irons, etc--if I did a good job my Dad would bur trucks and Mantua couplers for them--we soon decided that there were better--I learned to assemble sprung trucks.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:52 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Megows [2 Attachments]

I have attached two pages scanned from the 1941 Megow catalog that show the trucks availabe at the time.
 
Larry



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Group: vintageHO Message: 13118 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's
Hi Jim H.,

I found the Model Railroader Trade Topics review of your Cambron Alco PA A and B units with a tiny photo of both PA A & B body castings in the January, 1948 issue, p 67; The review was complimentary, but they noted that "the modeler will find a bit of filing to do here and there..." The full company name and address was given: J.S. Cambron, 914, Union Trust Bldg., Pittsburgh, PA.

Regarding your comment on different metals, it seems that Cambron offered the same models in three different metals as the short review of the PA's mentions that "These castings are available in aluminum, ornamental-bronze and nickel-silver." I recall one advertisement of Cambron's that I believed showed both the PA's and E7's and spoke about the choice of three metals and am searching for it today.

In answer to your question, the E-7 is nicely proportioned and despite the lack of roof detail and the need for that quoted "bit of filing" where the mold parts joined along the roof and along the lower side edges, and opening up the windows; they are partially open along one side as part of the casting process, I think it looks good. In the very unlikely event that the E-7 needed another good home, rest assured I'd contact you first!

Funny how times change as Model Railroader's comment about a "bit of filing" was so matter of fact 60 years ago and today seems like a total understatement. But back then more people were skilled in using hand tools and almost ever school had "Industrial Arts" classes that taught basic skills, if not learned at home from a father or uncle.

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Good to know you were able to ID. I'm most surprised that Jeff R had not identified it properly. I have to call him and rag on him ( pick on him in jest ) for that. He loves to do it to me.
>
> Another odd thing is my PA's are a type of cast brass while the E unit is cast Aluminum. While many companies did use different materials this is still nice to know. For being a cast brass my Cambron PA's are fairly nicely detailed. How good or bad is that E unit.
>
> Although you have the ID already you must be careful about a company called Hobbies Inc. Very similar in look and materials using both also. Hope you'll like it. If not I know a place that would be a good home.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7
>
>
>
> Hi Jim H. and All,
>
> The sand cast aluminum E-7 body that I just purchased from Jeff and that was provisonally listed as a Henry J. Garrett model has been positively identified as a Cambron model. Its quality appearance matches the Cambron Alco PA's shown in your photo album. How do I know it is by Cambron? This was too easy. Cast on the inside wall are the letters "Cambron" almost 1/4" high! Here is a link to the ebay listing as the photo is in a format that I am having trouble posting here.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yao65xr
>
> I remeber seeing ads for these, so will have to find it and see if they made a "B" unit. The hunt is on!
>
> W Jay W.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13119 From: jim heckard Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's
   W Jay W,
 
      Thanks for the Cambron info. Finding out much about them is hard as I have no MR or RMC magazines. Having the address for Cambron is great as I didn't know they were made in Pittsburgh. Also having never come across any paperwork for them makes it hard to learn about them.  While they only made bodies that I know of it is nice to know exactly what kind of metals they did use. I happen to have my PA bodies mounted on Athearn flywheel PA bodies only because I had them here and not being used. To keep them true vintage I should have used Lindsay or Hobbytown PA drives. I had to mill out inside the bodies to make them fit. It seemed like a pretty hard material for what ever mix the brass alloy is. Couldn't take much out at a time because of the "chatter". I would never have been able to file that much out. As for having "a bit of filing" the bodies I have were clean. I had no filing to do and actually didn't see scratches anywhere that looked like file marks.
 
   Like I mentioned before these odd companies including Dallas Model Craft, GARCO / H J Garrett; Hobbies Inc; Cambron to name a few were not as well known as some other early companies but still produced many vintage Diesels. Because of limited information and paper work available there is still a lot of history to find out. Just what you found out from MR adds greatly to what I know.
 
    As for filing, I too learned how in Industrial Arts. However the time involved on early HO cast items can really add up. While not a diesel body  the pre war Conover 2-10-2 was a nightmare of filing. Very hard material and rough shaped pieces. Even though you had to solder it together I think it took a lot more time to file those rough edges and fit pieces.
 
                                        Jim 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 2:56 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's

 

Hi Jim H.,

I found the Model Railroader Trade Topics review of your Cambron Alco PA A and B units with a tiny photo of both PA A & B body castings in the January, 1948 issue, p 67; The review was complimentary, but they noted that "the modeler will find a bit of filing to do here and there..." The full company name and address was given: J.S. Cambron, 914, Union Trust Bldg., Pittsburgh, PA.

Regarding your comment on different metals, it seems that Cambron offered the same models in three different metals as the short review of the PA's mentions that "These castings are available in aluminum, ornamental-bronze and nickel-silver. " I recall one advertisement of Cambron's that I believed showed both the PA's and E7's and spoke about the choice of three metals and am searching for it today.

In answer to your question, the E-7 is nicely proportioned and despite the lack of roof detail and the need for that quoted "bit of filing" where the mold parts joined along the roof and along the lower side edges, and opening up the windows; they are partially open along one side as part of the casting process, I think it looks good. In the very unlikely event that the E-7 needed another good home, rest assured I'd contact you first!

Funny how times change as Model Railroader's comment about a "bit of filing" was so matter of fact 60 years ago and today seems like a total understatement. But back then more people were skilled in using hand tools and almost ever school had "Industrial Arts" classes that taught basic skills, if not learned at home from a father or uncle.

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> Good to know you were able to ID. I'm most surprised that Jeff R had not identified it properly. I have to call him and rag on him ( pick on him in jest ) for that. He loves to do it to me.
>
> Another odd thing is my PA's are a type of cast brass while the E unit is cast Aluminum. While many companies did use different materials this is still nice to know. For being a cast brass my Cambron PA's are fairly nicely detailed. How good or bad is that E unit.
>
> Although you have the ID already you must be careful about a company called Hobbies Inc. Very similar in look and materials using both also. Hope you'll like it. If not I know a place that would be a good home.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7
>
>
>
> Hi Jim H. and All,
>
> The sand cast aluminum E-7 body that I just purchased from Jeff and that was provisonally listed as a Henry J. Garrett model has been positively identified as a Cambron model. Its quality appearance matches the Cambron Alco PA's shown in your photo album. How do I know it is by Cambron? This was too easy. Cast on the inside wall are the letters "Cambron" almost 1/4" high! Here is a link to the ebay listing as the photo is in a format that I am having trouble posting here.
>
> http://tinyurl. com/yao65xr
>
> I remeber seeing ads for these, so will have to find it and see if they made a "B" unit. The hunt is on!
>
> W Jay W.
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13120 From: Garry Spear Date: 2/7/2010
Subject: Ols kit on eBay
I have just listed an Old ARDEN SM-1 MONITOR ROOF BAGGAGE CAR Kit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150412398654 and a
BINKLEY/LACONIA PEERLESS BEER Car Kit
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120528245472 on
ebay.

Take a look if interested on old wood (some metal detail) kits.

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 13121 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's [1 Attachment]
Steve, I'd have to say that Megow produced more B&O freight car kits (those
four you mentioned) than any other roadname of their mostly reefer kit
line. Hope your back is better, BTW. I don't know of any other caboose kit
they may have offered besides B&O, as it's the only caboose offered in my 1941
catalog, but perhaps they did produce a D&RGW version. Until recently, I
wasn't aware that Megow produced structure kits as my catalog doesn't list
any, but I see one up on eBay right now -- Megow # P-8 Cape Cod Cottage
(#170442506357). Apparently, this is a later production item, and the D&RGW
caboose may also be one.

Megow brand trucks are included in all my Megow kits. Too, adding to
Larry's catalog page showing the trucks, my catalog also shows a 6-wheel
passenger truck. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13122 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (item
Lennard Stewart wrote:

                   Hi Everyone

                            Saw this on Ebay and thought some might be interested in it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180466735744&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

-- 
Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/
Group: vintageHO Message: 13123 From: Chris B Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: ebay listing for DMC A&B E units
Get fast shipping and excellent service when you buy from eBay 
Top-rated sellers0 Bids$4.95Feb-07 18:23
Here is a set of very old cast brass E series A/B shells.   The ends and roof
are brass castings.  The B unit roof has casting marks "DMC" underneath.
The sides are pewter or lead.   The sale is for everything in the pictures,
A & B and trucks.

--- On Sun, 2/7/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 4:01 PM

 

   W Jay W,
 
      Thanks for the Cambron info. Finding out much about them is hard as I have no MR or RMC magazines. Having the address for Cambron is great as I didn't know they were made in Pittsburgh. Also having never come across any paperwork for them makes it hard to learn about them.  While they only made bodies that I know of it is nice to know exactly what kind of metals they did use. I happen to have my PA bodies mounted on Athearn flywheel PA bodies only because I had them here and not being used. To keep them true vintage I should have used Lindsay or Hobbytown PA drives. I had to mill out inside the bodies to make them fit. It seemed like a pretty hard material for what ever mix the brass alloy is. Couldn't take much out at a time because of the "chatter". I would never have been able to file that much out. As for having "a bit of filing" the bodies I have were clean. I had no filing to do and actually didn't see scratches anywhere that looked like file marks.
 
   Like I mentioned before these odd companies including Dallas Model Craft, GARCO / H J Garrett; Hobbies Inc; Cambron to name a few were not as well known as some other early companies but still produced many vintage Diesels. Because of limited information and paper work available there is still a lot of history to find out. Just what you found out from MR adds greatly to what I know.
 
    As for filing, I too learned how in Industrial Arts. However the time involved on early HO cast items can really add up. While not a diesel body  the pre war Conover 2-10-2 was a nightmare of filing. Very hard material and rough shaped pieces. Even though you had to solder it together I think it took a lot more time to file those rough edges and fit pieces.
 
                                        Jim 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 2:56 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's

 

Hi Jim H.,

I found the Model Railroader Trade Topics review of your Cambron Alco PA A and B units with a tiny photo of both PA A & B body castings in the January, 1948 issue, p 67; The review was complimentary, but they noted that "the modeler will find a bit of filing to do here and there..." The full company name and address was given: J.S. Cambron, 914, Union Trust Bldg., Pittsburgh, PA.

Regarding your comment on different metals, it seems that Cambron offered the same models in three different metals as the short review of the PA's mentions that "These castings are available in aluminum, ornamental-bronze and nickel-silver. " I recall one advertisement of Cambron's that I believed showed both the PA's and E7's and spoke about the choice of three metals and am searching for it today.

In answer to your question, the E-7 is nicely proportioned and despite the lack of roof detail and the need for that quoted "bit of filing" where the mold parts joined along the roof and along the lower side edges, and opening up the windows; they are partially open along one side as part of the casting process, I think it looks good. In the very unlikely event that the E-7 needed another good home, rest assured I'd contact you first!

Funny how times change as Model Railroader's comment about a "bit of filing" was so matter of fact 60 years ago and today seems like a total understatement. But back then more people were skilled in using hand tools and almost ever school had "Industrial Arts" classes that taught basic skills, if not learned at home from a father or uncle.

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> Good to know you were able to ID. I'm most surprised that Jeff R had not identified it properly. I have to call him and rag on him ( pick on him in jest ) for that. He loves to do it to me.
>
> Another odd thing is my PA's are a type of cast brass while the E unit is cast Aluminum. While many companies did use different materials this is still nice to know. For being a cast brass my Cambron PA's are fairly nicely detailed. How good or bad is that E unit.
>
> Although you have the ID already you must be careful about a company called Hobbies Inc. Very similar in look and materials using both also. Hope you'll like it. If not I know a place that would be a good home.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7
>
>
>
> Hi Jim H. and All,
>
> The sand cast aluminum E-7 body that I just purchased from Jeff and that was provisonally listed as a Henry J. Garrett model has been positively identified as a Cambron model. Its quality appearance matches the Cambron Alco PA's shown in your photo album. How do I know it is by Cambron? This was too easy. Cast on the inside wall are the letters "Cambron" almost 1/4" high! Here is a link to the ebay listing as the photo is in a format that I am having trouble posting here.
>
> http://tinyurl. com/yao65xr
>
> I remeber seeing ads for these, so will have to find it and see if they made a "B" unit. The hunt is on!
>
> W Jay W.
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13124 From: trainliker Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: ebay listing for DMC A&B E units
I believe "DMC" would be Dallas Model Craft".

There is some info at www.hoseeker.com

I'm not sure, but I think they may have also made O gauge? I have an ABA set of O gauge diesels made at Electro Motive Division's model shop as a salesman sample. I have always wondered whose castings they used. (They are painted in Train of Tomorrow colors although in real life TOT had only a single A unit).

Chuck Kinzer

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> VINTAGE BRASS E SERIES
> SHELLSEnlarge0 Bids$4.95Feb-07 18:23Here is a set of
> very old cast brass E series A/B shells.   The ends and roof
> are
> brass castings.  The B unit roof has casting marks "DMC" underneath.
> The
> sides are pewter or lead.   The sale is for everything in the pictures,
> A
> & B and trucks.
>
> --- On Sun, 2/7/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 4:01 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    W Jay W,
>  
>       Thanks for the
> Cambron info. Finding out much about them is hard as I have no MR or RMC
> magazines. Having the address for Cambron is great as I didn't know they were
> made in Pittsburgh. Also having never come across any paperwork for them makes
> it hard to learn about them.  While they only made bodies that I know of it
> is nice to know exactly what kind of metals they did use. I happen to have my PA
> bodies mounted on Athearn flywheel PA bodies only because I had them here and
> not being used. To keep them true vintage I should have used Lindsay or
> Hobbytown PA drives. I had to mill out inside the bodies to make them fit. It
> seemed like a pretty hard material for what ever mix the brass alloy is.
> Couldn't take much out at a time because of the "chatter". I would never have
> been able to file that much out. As for having "a bit of filing" the bodies I
> have were clean. I had no filing to do and actually didn't see scratches
> anywhere that looked like file marks.
>  
>    Like I mentioned before these odd
> companies including Dallas Model Craft, GARCO / H J Garrett; Hobbies Inc;
> Cambron to name a few were not as well known as some other early companies but
> still produced many vintage Diesels. Because of limited information and paper
> work available there is still a lot of history to find out. Just what you found
> out from MR adds greatly to what I know.
>  
>     As for filing, I too learned how
> in Industrial Arts. However the time involved on early HO cast items can
> really add up. While not a diesel body  the pre war Conover 2-10-2 was
> a nightmare of filing. Very hard material and rough shaped pieces. Even though
> you had to solder it together I think it took a lot more time to file those
> rough edges and fit pieces.
>  
>                                         Jim 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 2:56
> PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more on Cambron,
> Cast PA's and E-7's
>
>  
>
> Hi Jim H.,
>
> I found the Model Railroader Trade Topics review of your
> Cambron Alco PA A and B units with a tiny photo of both PA A & B body
> castings in the January, 1948 issue, p 67; The review was complimentary, but
> they noted that "the modeler will find a bit of filing to do here and
> there..." The full company name and address was given: J.S. Cambron, 914,
> Union Trust Bldg., Pittsburgh, PA.
>
> Regarding your comment on different
> metals, it seems that Cambron offered the same models in three different
> metals as the short review of the PA's mentions that "These castings are
> available in aluminum, ornamental-bronze and nickel-silver. " I recall one
> advertisement of Cambron's that I believed showed both the PA's and E7's and
> spoke about the choice of three metals and am searching for it today.
>
>
> In answer to your question, the E-7 is nicely proportioned and despite
> the lack of roof detail and the need for that quoted "bit of filing" where the
> mold parts joined along the roof and along the lower side edges, and opening
> up the windows; they are partially open along one side as part of the casting
> process, I think it looks good. In the very unlikely event that the E-7 needed
> another good home, rest assured I'd contact you first!
>
> Funny how times
> change as Model Railroader's comment about a "bit of filing" was so matter of
> fact 60 years ago and today seems like a total understatement. But back then
> more people were skilled in using hand tools and almost ever school had
> "Industrial Arts" classes that taught basic skills, if not learned at home
> from a father or uncle.
>
> W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com,
> "jim heckard" <jimheck@ > wrote:
> >
> > Good to know you
> were able to ID. I'm most surprised that Jeff R had not identified it
> properly. I have to call him and rag on him ( pick on him in jest ) for that.
> He loves to do it to me.
> >
> > Another odd thing is my PA's are a
> type of cast brass while the E unit is cast Aluminum. While many companies did
> use different materials this is still nice to know. For being a cast brass my
> Cambron PA's are fairly nicely detailed. How good or bad is that E unit.
>
> >
> > Although you have the ID already you must be careful about a
> company called Hobbies Inc. Very similar in look and materials using both
> also. Hope you'll like it. If not I know a place that would be a good
> home.
> >
> > Jim H
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> From: the_plainsman
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
> > Subject:
> [vintageHO] Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi
> Jim H. and All,
> >
> > The sand cast aluminum E-7 body that I just
> purchased from Jeff and that was provisonally listed as a Henry J. Garrett
> model has been positively identified as a Cambron model. Its quality
> appearance matches the Cambron Alco PA's shown in your photo album. How do I
> know it is by Cambron? This was too easy. Cast on the inside wall are the
> letters "Cambron" almost 1/4" high! Here is a link to the ebay listing as the
> photo is in a format that I am having trouble posting here.
> >
> >
> http://tinyurl. com/yao65xr
> >
>
> > I remeber seeing ads for these, so will have to find it and see if
> they made a "B" unit. The hunt is on!
> >
> > W Jay
> W.
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13125 From: jim heckard Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: ebay listing for DMC A&B E units

   Chris B, All,
 
         
         The pictures from the Ebay auction you sent, the A body only,  is the second version of E units by DMC ( Dallas Model Craft.) If you look real close on the pictures of the sides for the A unit you can see along with raised (embossed) details the outlines for Santa Fe Warbonnet paint scheme. Only the second run had these "embossed " type metal sides. The first run had plain sides and pre printed colored paper that you glued on again having the Santa Fe Warbonnet paint scheme. Whoever made DMC products liked this Santa Fe scheme as they had streamlined Santa Fe passenger cars too.
 
   These E units came with two different types of drives. I don't remember if they were used with both versions or one type of drive was for one version and the other drive for the other version. HOseeker has at least paperwork for one style of drive. I don't know if I sent the other yet or not.
 
   I have both A unit versions. I don't have a B so what I am writing only deals with the A units. I am assuming the B units followed suit as to construction / versions.  Wish I could only buy that B unit.
 
   If any one wants pictures of the two versions  can supply and I can supply paperwork for both drives.
 
                                                              Jim H
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 7:08 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] ebay listing for DMC A&B E units

 

Get fast shipping and excellent service when you buy from eBay 
Top-rated sellers 0 Bids $4.95 Feb-07 18:23
Here is a set of very old cast brass E series A/B shells.   The ends and roof
are brass castings.  The B unit roof has casting marks "DMC" underneath.
The sides are pewter or lead.   The sale is for everything in the pictures,
A & B and trucks.

--- On Sun, 2/7/10, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:

From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 4:01 PM

 

   W Jay W,
 
      Thanks for the Cambron info. Finding out much about them is hard as I have no MR or RMC magazines. Having the address for Cambron is great as I didn't know they were made in Pittsburgh. Also having never come across any paperwork for them makes it hard to learn about them.  While they only made bodies that I know of it is nice to know exactly what kind of metals they did use. I happen to have my PA bodies mounted on Athearn flywheel PA bodies only because I had them here and not being used. To keep them true vintage I should have used Lindsay or Hobbytown PA drives. I had to mill out inside the bodies to make them fit. It seemed like a pretty hard material for what ever mix the brass alloy is. Couldn't take much out at a time because of the "chatter". I would never have been able to file that much out. As for having "a bit of filing" the bodies I have were clean. I had no filing to do and actually didn't see scratches anywhere that looked like file marks.
 
   Like I mentioned before these odd companies including Dallas Model Craft, GARCO / H J Garrett; Hobbies Inc; Cambron to name a few were not as well known as some other early companies but still produced many vintage Diesels. Because of limited information and paper work available there is still a lot of history to find out. Just what you found out from MR adds greatly to what I know.
 
    As for filing, I too learned how in Industrial Arts. However the time involved on early HO cast items can really add up. While not a diesel body  the pre war Conover 2-10-2 was a nightmare of filing. Very hard material and rough shaped pieces. Even though you had to solder it together I think it took a lot more time to file those rough edges and fit pieces.
 
                                        Jim 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 2:56 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's

 

Hi Jim H.,

I found the Model Railroader Trade Topics review of your Cambron Alco PA A and B units with a tiny photo of both PA A & B body castings in the January, 1948 issue, p 67; The review was complimentary, but they noted that "the modeler will find a bit of filing to do here and there..." The full company name and address was given: J.S. Cambron, 914, Union Trust Bldg., Pittsburgh, PA.

Regarding your comment on different metals, it seems that Cambron offered the same models in three different metals as the short review of the PA's mentions that "These castings are available in aluminum, ornamental-bronze and nickel-silver. " I recall one advertisement of Cambron's that I believed showed both the PA's and E7's and spoke about the choice of three metals and am searching for it today.

In answer to your question, the E-7 is nicely proportioned and despite the lack of roof detail and the need for that quoted "bit of filing" where the mold parts joined along the roof and along the lower side edges, and opening up the windows; they are partially open along one side as part of the casting process, I think it looks good. In the very unlikely event that the E-7 needed another good home, rest assured I'd contact you first!

Funny how times change as Model Railroader's comment about a "bit of filing" was so matter of fact 60 years ago and today seems like a total understatement. But back then more people were skilled in using hand tools and almost ever school had "Industrial Arts" classes that taught basic skills, if not learned at home from a father or uncle.

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> Good to know you were able to ID. I'm most surprised that Jeff R had not identified it properly. I have to call him and rag on him ( pick on him in jest ) for that. He loves to do it to me.
>
> Another odd thing is my PA's are a type of cast brass while the E unit is cast Aluminum. While many companies did use different materials this is still nice to know. For being a cast brass my Cambron PA's are fairly nicely detailed. How good or bad is that E unit.
>
> Although you have the ID already you must be careful about a company called Hobbies Inc. Very similar in look and materials using both also. Hope you'll like it. If not I know a place that would be a good home.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7
>
>
>
> Hi Jim H. and All,
>
> The sand cast aluminum E-7 body that I just purchased from Jeff and that was provisonally listed as a Henry J. Garrett model has been positively identified as a Cambron model. Its quality appearance matches the Cambron Alco PA's shown in your photo album. How do I know it is by Cambron? This was too easy. Cast on the inside wall are the letters "Cambron" almost 1/4" high! Here is a link to the ebay listing as the photo is in a format that I am having trouble posting here.
>
> http://tinyurl. com/yao65xr
>
> I remeber seeing ads for these, so will have to find it and see if they made a "B" unit. The hunt is on!
>
> W Jay W.
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13126 From: jim heckard Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: ebay listing for DMC A&B E units

  Hi All,   
 
     Addition to my Email. If you go into HOseeker and click on Gallery, go to the heading other trains, find DMC you will find pictures of my DMC items which might be useful.
 
                                          Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ebay listing for DMC A&B E units

   Chris B, All,
 
         
         The pictures from the Ebay auction you sent, the A body only,  is the second version of E units by DMC ( Dallas Model Craft.) If you look real close on the pictures of the sides for the A unit you can see along with raised (embossed) details the outlines for Santa Fe Warbonnet paint scheme. Only the second run had these "embossed " type metal sides. The first run had plain sides and pre printed colored paper that you glued on again having the Santa Fe Warbonnet paint scheme. Whoever made DMC products liked this Santa Fe scheme as they had streamlined Santa Fe passenger cars too.
 
   These E units came with two different types of drives. I don't remember if they were used with both versions or one type of drive was for one version and the other drive for the other version. HOseeker has at least paperwork for one style of drive. I don't know if I sent the other yet or not.
 
   I have both A unit versions. I don't have a B so what I am writing only deals with the A units. I am assuming the B units followed suit as to construction / versions.  Wish I could only buy that B unit.
 
   If any one wants pictures of the two versions  can supply and I can supply paperwork for both drives.
 
                                                              Jim H
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 7:08 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] ebay listing for DMC A&B E units

 

Get fast shipping and excellent service when you buy from eBay 
Top-rated sellers 0 Bids $4.95 Feb-07 18:23
Here is a set of very old cast brass E series A/B shells.   The ends and roof
are brass castings.  The B unit roof has casting marks "DMC" underneath.
The sides are pewter or lead.   The sale is for everything in the pictures,
A & B and trucks.

--- On Sun, 2/7/10, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:

From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 4:01 PM

 

   W Jay W,
 
      Thanks for the Cambron info. Finding out much about them is hard as I have no MR or RMC magazines. Having the address for Cambron is great as I didn't know they were made in Pittsburgh. Also having never come across any paperwork for them makes it hard to learn about them.  While they only made bodies that I know of it is nice to know exactly what kind of metals they did use. I happen to have my PA bodies mounted on Athearn flywheel PA bodies only because I had them here and not being used. To keep them true vintage I should have used Lindsay or Hobbytown PA drives. I had to mill out inside the bodies to make them fit. It seemed like a pretty hard material for what ever mix the brass alloy is. Couldn't take much out at a time because of the "chatter". I would never have been able to file that much out. As for having "a bit of filing" the bodies I have were clean. I had no filing to do and actually didn't see scratches anywhere that looked like file marks.
 
   Like I mentioned before these odd companies including Dallas Model Craft, GARCO / H J Garrett; Hobbies Inc; Cambron to name a few were not as well known as some other early companies but still produced many vintage Diesels. Because of limited information and paper work available there is still a lot of history to find out. Just what you found out from MR adds greatly to what I know.
 
    As for filing, I too learned how in Industrial Arts. However the time involved on early HO cast items can really add up. While not a diesel body  the pre war Conover 2-10-2 was a nightmare of filing. Very hard material and rough shaped pieces. Even though you had to solder it together I think it took a lot more time to file those rough edges and fit pieces.
 
                                        Jim 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 2:56 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: more on Cambron, Cast PA's and E-7's

 

Hi Jim H.,

I found the Model Railroader Trade Topics review of your Cambron Alco PA A and B units with a tiny photo of both PA A & B body castings in the January, 1948 issue, p 67; The review was complimentary, but they noted that "the modeler will find a bit of filing to do here and there..." The full company name and address was given: J.S. Cambron, 914, Union Trust Bldg., Pittsburgh, PA.

Regarding your comment on different metals, it seems that Cambron offered the same models in three different metals as the short review of the PA's mentions that "These castings are available in aluminum, ornamental-bronze and nickel-silver. " I recall one advertisement of Cambron's that I believed showed both the PA's and E7's and spoke about the choice of three metals and am searching for it today.

In answer to your question, the E-7 is nicely proportioned and despite the lack of roof detail and the need for that quoted "bit of filing" where the mold parts joined along the roof and along the lower side edges, and opening up the windows; they are partially open along one side as part of the casting process, I think it looks good. In the very unlikely event that the E-7 needed another good home, rest assured I'd contact you first!

Funny how times change as Model Railroader's comment about a "bit of filing" was so matter of fact 60 years ago and today seems like a total understatement. But back then more people were skilled in using hand tools and almost ever school had "Industrial Arts" classes that taught basic skills, if not learned at home from a father or uncle.

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> Good to know you were able to ID. I'm most surprised that Jeff R had not identified it properly. I have to call him and rag on him ( pick on him in jest ) for that. He loves to do it to me.
>
> Another odd thing is my PA's are a type of cast brass while the E unit is cast Aluminum. While many companies did use different materials this is still nice to know. For being a cast brass my Cambron PA's are fairly nicely detailed. How good or bad is that E unit.
>
> Although you have the ID already you must be careful about a company called Hobbies Inc. Very similar in look and materials using both also. Hope you'll like it. If not I know a place that would be a good home.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 12:18 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Cambron Cast Aluminum E-7
>
>
>
> Hi Jim H. and All,
>
> The sand cast aluminum E-7 body that I just purchased from Jeff and that was provisonally listed as a Henry J. Garrett model has been positively identified as a Cambron model. Its quality appearance matches the Cambron Alco PA's shown in your photo album. How do I know it is by Cambron? This was too easy. Cast on the inside wall are the letters "Cambron" almost 1/4" high! Here is a link to the ebay listing as the photo is in a format that I am having trouble posting here.
>
> http://tinyurl. com/yao65xr
>
> I remeber seeing ads for these, so will have to find it and see if they made a "B" unit. The hunt is on!
>
> W Jay W.
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13127 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Flatcar
I would post a photo, but it would not show anything of what I am talking about, so I'll try to explain as best I can.

I think this is custom-modified, but maybe not.

Wood floor (lower) and sill.
Paper sides, upper floor (I think) and the end beams are paper, too!

Letterd (with decals ) for Milwaukee.
Has a pipe load (so I can't really see the floor).

Here's the question:

It has metal stakes.
Not your "normal" stakes, either, but big, square "U" shaped things, that the horizontal portion fits between the upper and lower floors, then stick up through cutouts in the upper floor.

Problem is, the holes are not small enough, so the stakes flop over, at least 45 degrees each side of full vertical.

I have searched the HOSeeker pages until my eyes crossed.

Anybody ever seen anything like this?
I mean, to have an all wood and paper (cardboard) car and then metal stakes doesn't sound right.

Thanks in advance.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13128 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: Megow's
Steve- Check your e-mail when you can.
Thanks.
Dave

.
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13129 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: Flatcar
Hi Dave, That is the way those kits were designed, know I have or had one here, but too late to check now, but will get back tomorrow evening on it. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
> I would post a photo, but it would not show anything of what I am talking about, so I'll try to explain as best I can.
>
> I think this is custom-modified, but maybe not.
>
> Wood floor (lower) and sill.
> Paper sides, upper floor (I think) and the end beams are paper, too!
>
> Letterd (with decals ) for Milwaukee.
> Has a pipe load (so I can't really see the floor).
>
> Here's the question:
>
> It has metal stakes.
> Not your "normal" stakes, either, but big, square "U" shaped things, that the horizontal portion fits between the upper and lower floors, then stick up through cutouts in the upper floor.
>
> Problem is, the holes are not small enough, so the stakes flop over, at least 45 degrees each side of full vertical.
>
> I have searched the HOSeeker pages until my eyes crossed.
>
> Anybody ever seen anything like this?
> I mean, to have an all wood and paper (cardboard) car and then metal stakes doesn't sound right.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13130 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Megow
Attachments :
Attached is a scanned copy of the rear cover of the Decamber,1942 issue of "The Model Craftsman" magazine, that lists all of the Megow buildings available at that time.
 
Larry

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13131 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/8/2010
Subject: Re: Flatcar
Very strange.
I thought all-paper cars were wartime of some such when metal was in short supply.
You mean the all-paper, including end beams was how they were made, or the metal stakes?
Looking closer, almost looks like them big metal staples used for crates......maybe for the spare engine for the Liberators, eh?

Who made the car?

Megows didn't, the closest I can find is Varney.

Dave


>
> Hi Dave, That is the way those kits were designed, know I have or had one here, but too late to check now, but will get back tomorrow evening on it. W Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
> >
> > I would post a photo, but it would not show anything of what I am talking about, so I'll try to explain as best I can.
> >
> > I think this is custom-modified, but maybe not.
> >
> > Wood floor (lower) and sill.
> > Paper sides, upper floor (I think) and the end beams are paper, too!
> >
> > Letterd (with decals ) for Milwaukee.
> > Has a pipe load (so I can't really see the floor).
> >
> > Here's the question:
> >
> > It has metal stakes.
> > Not your "normal" stakes, either, but big, square "U" shaped things, that the horizontal portion fits between the upper and lower floors, then stick up through cutouts in the upper floor.
> >
> > Problem is, the holes are not small enough, so the stakes flop over, at least 45 degrees each side of full vertical.
> >
> > I have searched the HOSeeker pages until my eyes crossed.
> >
> > Anybody ever seen anything like this?
> > I mean, to have an all wood and paper (cardboard) car and then metal stakes doesn't sound right.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13132 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Megow -- and pre-War Cataloging -- and the War Effort
Larry, Thank you very MUCH for digging out and posting the MR ad for the
complete line of Megow structures. Looks like they couldn't have been much
later in their "pre-War" offerings as not only do they appear in 1942, but at
the very end of that year. This of course explains why I hadn't seen them
in my 1941 catalog, but being primarily cardstock (and wood?), these would
have been the perfect line to continue during the War as a revenue-maker for
the company as it's doubtful they contained any metal. I appreciate your
adding to the history and offerings of Megow which was otherwise easily
overlooked.

As we all know, or at least as far as I know, all (or at least most) metals
were restricted from such hobby use during the War which was also the
primary reason for Varney going to their bare-bones Main Line kits. I do have
the standard 6 1/4" x 10 1/4" Mantua catalogs dated for 1942 - First Edition
as printed on the front cover, containing all of their offerings from the
1941 catalogs and before, bearing a copyright date of 1942 on the inside front
cover (there is no actual printing date as Varney had), which was
evidentally printed in '42 with the production cut-off date in mind. Unlike previous
years though, of which I have "First Edition," Second Edition," etc., there
was only one Edition for 1942. Incidentally, this SAME 1942 catalog was
used by Mantua (with the 1942 date on the front cover), for their 1945 catalog
as a copyright date of 1945 was printed on the inside front cover in place
of "1942."

The 1942 catalog's listings were essentially the same as what was
previously being offered, including all their engine kits, although the cover was
different in that it was not just printed blue on white, but instead was dark
brown on yellow with sepia-tone photos, and the back cover was full-color.
We can be sure though, that as soon as supplies ran out, that they weren't
replaced until after the War as Mantua was one of the major hobby
manufacturers that converted their tooling towards the War effort. A note on next the
the last page (Page 47) with a heading "War Extra," states that "Due to
Government Conservation Orders to save Metal for the War Effort, we stopped
manufacturing Model Railroad Supplies on June 30th, 1942. This of course means
that all the Model supplies and kits listed in this catalogue will only be
available for some time . The other Locomotive kits are now almost all gone."


One reason I bring this up, besides possibly adding to the history of this
manufacturer for some members, is to get back to the more meager War-time
offerings of Megow, Varney and others which continued to sell kits of wood &
cardstock, and while these materials were apparently not espressly pointed
out by the government as being prohibited from being used in the production of
non-War related items, I distinctly remember during those War years that we
had weekly drives for placing not only our tin cans (after cutting out the
bottoms and flattening them) at the curb for pick up, for use in the War
effort, but also our tied bundles of newspaper which were also very much NEEDED
for the War effort -- although I don't know the purpose of this paper need.
With this apparent shortage and need for newsprint though by the War
Department, it strikes me as being counter to the Cause for any manufacturers to
use even paper (cardstock) products for any other use than for the War
effort, and not for their own profit in the manufacture of their own products.
As there seems to be a contradiction here, I was wondering if anyone could
fill in why this commodity was allowed for such use by the government when
they instituted collections of it for our War needs. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13133 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Megow [1 Attachment]
For the interests of others here who may be interested in Megow, I thought
I'd post their complete line (as I'm aware of it) -- in addition to Larry's
new structure kit information -- as a separate messages aside from my
previous post on this manufacturer. Any further additions unknown to me would be
appreciated.

The following information was taken both from Megow's 1941 catalog, as well
as from the back of their kit boxes designated ONLY for use of their
Refrigerator Car kits -- just as described. As far as I can see, all of their kit
boxes were identical (which were printed black on white -- primarily being
a black, one-piece, box), at least up through 1940 -- except for those used
only for their reefer kits which contained a full listing of their kits up
until that time. This rear panel also contained a series of eight photos of
some of these cars as built. Boxes used for other kits had plain
white/blank panels on the rear, without any such printing.

The MEGOW Corporation

QD-1. American Ref. Transit

QD-2. Armour Ref. Car

QD-3. Fruit Growers Exp. Ref.

QD-4. Hunter Pkg. Co. Ref.

QD-5. Kahn's Sons Ref. Car

QD-6. Krey Packing Co. Ref.

QD-7. M.K.T. Ref. Car

QD-8. M.U.N.X. Ref. Car

QD-9. No. American Despatch Ref.

QD-10. Northern Ref. Car

QD-11. Northern Pacific Ref.

QD-12. Western Fruit Exp. Ref.

QD-13. Pacific Fuit Exp. Ref.

QD-14. Santa Fe Ref. Car

QD-15. Swift Refrigerator

QD-16. Union Ref. Transit

QD-17. Northwestern Ref. Line

QD-18. Green Bay & Western Ref.

QD-19. Merchants Despatch (M.D.T.) Ref.

QD-20. Lackawanna Ref. Line

QD-21. B & O Caboose

QD-22. B & O Hopper Car

QD-23. B & O. Gondola Car

QD-24. B & O "Wagon-Top" Box Car

QD-25. Gulf Tank Car

QD-26. S. P. Steel Box Car

QD-27. Pennsylvania Passenger (Coach) Car

QD-28. CCC&StL Hopper Car

QD-29. Virginian (VGN) Hopper Car

QD-30. Southern (Sou) Hopper Car

QD-31. Nickel Plate (NYC&StL) Hopper Car

QD-32. Pennsylvania (PRR) Hopper Car

Misc. Equipment

Four-Wheel Freight Truck

Four-Wheel Passenger Truck

Six-Wheel Passenger Truck

Rubber Road Bed, 18" Lengths

Tie Strip 100' Coil (as two 50' Rolls)

H0 Picket Fence, per Ft.

Automatic Coupler

P-6 Signal Bridge

P-7 Plate Girder Bridge

P-15 Interlocking Tower

Fast-Drying Railroad Paints (1 ounce Bottle)
A. Reefer Grey
B. Roof Brown
C. Reefer Yellow
D. Reefer Orange
E. Pullman Green
F. Caboose Red
G. Railroad White
H. Box Car Tuscan Red
I. Flat Black
J. Tuscan Red
K. Aluminum

I'll add some car side numbers as I'm able to access them. I intentionally
left off their many Airplane, Ship and Racing Car (CO2 cartridge-powered)
kits, which have no relevance here. Ray F.W.







</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13134 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Hi Ray F.W., Dave, and All,

A study of that part of American history (WW2) reveals that sometimes the material collected in scrap drives exceeded war needs, but they were continued nevertheless as the drives were seen in Washington of being another way of involving the public directly in the War effort. While paper was rationed to magazines like Model Railroader, it was still somewhat available for other varied uses and usually in lesser quality.

What was the paper used for? One article says: "...by September 1943, it was determined that 70,000,000 tons of waste paper would be required for the war effort over the next year. Increased demand by the armed forces and the decrease in virgin pulpwood was responsible for the shortage. The WPB (War Production Board) estimated that 30 thousand tons of paperboard was needed each month for packing shells alone. Over one million paper milk bottles were used daily in army camps." So the war needs for paper was clearly there, but those primary uses limited, not eliminated other consumer uses.

And as it was pointed out, while many HO manufacturers like Varney. Megow, Ideal concentrated on featuring card sided models during the war (as hobbies in general were seen as positive activities for war-weary civilians), the use of card-sided models both before and afterwards was attributed to printed, embossed card's ability to replicate parts of freight cars better than any other material widely available at the time. The art of printng "Decalcomanias" as decals were called, was in its infancy in the late 1930s as were model paints and it took another few years for those mediums to develop to the better quality as we know them today.

No one better stated the reasons for using card sides than this: In Red Ball's catalog #4 issued circa 1947, M. Dale Newton, founder of Red Ball wrote, "We have been asked many times why we do not use metal instead of cardboard for our car sides. There are several reasons; paper is our medium, and we understand it. [Newton was a printer by trade-J.] We believe better (more intricate) lettering may be had on its surface and that more detailed embossing can be done on it. It is not economically practical to make short runs when lithographing sheet metal. Long runs [in sheet metal-J] on many types of cars involves too great an investment... Until such time as a better material is available, Red Ball car sides will continue to be made of cardboard.

Newton's resoning was supported by many modelers as his embossed printed car sides for reefers and standard boxcars continued in popularity for 40 more years, into the 1980's, the "Craftman Kit" era, until only eclipsed in variety of railroad-specific models by the acclaimed resin manufacturers such as Westerfield and Sunshine. And Newton was also correct about the embossed sheet metal car dies (and later injection molding dies) being expensive, as Athearn and Varney offered only a limited number of standard box car and reefer types, simply varying the paint schemes in their popular and highly regarded popular lines that we continue to collect and run today.

Certainly the quality of card-sided cars varied by not only the manufacturer, but also model. There were some pretty basic ones made, each line including Red Ball had its plain-Jane simple models, but some had kits that no effort was spared on to make a superior model that can hold the interest of a prototype-specific modeler today, as were Ideal's B&O corrugated wagon top box car and crane, both recently discussed here.

All above, my way of saying card-sided models were not just intended as war-time substitues, though some were and that both reatively poor quality as well as top quality models can be made of embossed card. (Whew!)

W Jay W.




--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
> Larry, Thank you very MUCH for digging out and posting the MR ad for the
> complete line of Megow structures. Looks like they couldn't have been much
> later in their "pre-War" offerings as not only do they appear in 1942, but at
> the very end of that year. This of course explains why I hadn't seen them
> in my 1941 catalog, but being primarily cardstock (and wood?), these would
> have been the perfect line to continue during the War as a revenue-maker for
> the company as it's doubtful they contained any metal. I appreciate your
> adding to the history and offerings of Megow which was otherwise easily
> overlooked.
>
> As we all know, or at least as far as I know, all (or at least most) metals
> were restricted from such hobby use during the War which was also the
> primary reason for Varney going to their bare-bones Main Line kits. I do have
> the standard 6 1/4" x 10 1/4" Mantua catalogs dated for 1942 - First Edition
> as printed on the front cover, containing all of their offerings from the
> 1941 catalogs and before, bearing a copyright date of 1942 on the inside front
> cover (there is no actual printing date as Varney had), which was
> evidentally printed in '42 with the production cut-off date in mind. Unlike previous
> years though, of which I have "First Edition," Second Edition," etc., there
> was only one Edition for 1942. Incidentally, this SAME 1942 catalog was
> used by Mantua (with the 1942 date on the front cover), for their 1945 catalog
> as a copyright date of 1945 was printed on the inside front cover in place
> of "1942."
>
> The 1942 catalog's listings were essentially the same as what was
> previously being offered, including all their engine kits, although the cover was
> different in that it was not just printed blue on white, but instead was dark
> brown on yellow with sepia-tone photos, and the back cover was full-color.
> We can be sure though, that as soon as supplies ran out, that they weren't
> replaced until after the War as Mantua was one of the major hobby
> manufacturers that converted their tooling towards the War effort. A note on next the
> the last page (Page 47) with a heading "War Extra," states that "Due to
> Government Conservation Orders to save Metal for the War Effort, we stopped
> manufacturing Model Railroad Supplies on June 30th, 1942. This of course means
> that all the Model supplies and kits listed in this catalogue will only be
> available for some time . The other Locomotive kits are now almost all gone."
>
>
> One reason I bring this up, besides possibly adding to the history of this
> manufacturer for some members, is to get back to the more meager War-time
> offerings of Megow, Varney and others which continued to sell kits of wood &
> cardstock, and while these materials were apparently not espressly pointed
> out by the government as being prohibited from being used in the production of
> non-War related items, I distinctly remember during those War years that we
> had weekly drives for placing not only our tin cans (after cutting out the
> bottoms and flattening them) at the curb for pick up, for use in the War
> effort, but also our tied bundles of newspaper which were also very much NEEDED
> for the War effort -- although I don't know the purpose of this paper need.
> With this apparent shortage and need for newsprint though by the War
> Department, it strikes me as being counter to the Cause for any manufacturers to
> use even paper (cardstock) products for any other use than for the War
> effort, and not for their own profit in the manufacture of their own products.
> As there seems to be a contradiction here, I was wondering if anyone could
> fill in why this commodity was allowed for such use by the government when
> they instituted collections of it for our War needs. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13135 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
It's not the cardboard sides I was questioning (as I know they went on a LONG time), but rather the cardboard sides, wood floor and sill,
COMBINED with cardboard end beams.
Now, I've got a few units from pre, mid, and post war.
They have stamped sheet metal end beams (with coupler hoops), die-cast, Tennite, or whatever.

To have paper-based end beams, with coupler hoops (simulating end of draft gear box), and then metal stakes, is odd.

Dave


> Hi Ray F.W., Dave, and All,
>
> A study of that part of American history (WW2) reveals that sometimes the material collected in scrap drives exceeded war needs, but they were continued nevertheless as the drives were seen in Washington of being another way of involving the public directly in the War effort. While paper was rationed to magazines like Model Railroader, it was still somewhat available for other varied uses and usually in lesser quality.
>
> What was the paper used for? One article says: "...by September 1943, it was determined that 70,000,000 tons of waste paper would be required for the war effort over the next year. Increased demand by the armed forces and the decrease in virgin pulpwood was responsible for the shortage. The WPB (War Production Board) estimated that 30 thousand tons of paperboard was needed each month for packing shells alone. Over one million paper milk bottles were used daily in army camps." So the war needs for paper was clearly there, but those primary uses limited, not eliminated other consumer uses.
>
> And as it was pointed out, while many HO manufacturers like Varney. Megow, Ideal concentrated on featuring card sided models during the war (as hobbies in general were seen as positive activities for war-weary civilians), the use of card-sided models both before and afterwards was attributed to printed, embossed card's ability to replicate parts of freight cars better than any other material widely available at the time. The art of printng "Decalcomanias" as decals were called, was in its infancy in the late 1930s as were model paints and it took another few years for those mediums to develop to the better quality as we know them today.
>
> No one better stated the reasons for using card sides than this: In Red Ball's catalog #4 issued circa 1947, M. Dale Newton, founder of Red Ball wrote, "We have been asked many times why we do not use metal instead of cardboard for our car sides. There are several reasons; paper is our medium, and we understand it. [Newton was a printer by trade-J.] We believe better (more intricate) lettering may be had on its surface and that more detailed embossing can be done on it. It is not economically practical to make short runs when lithographing sheet metal. Long runs [in sheet metal-J] on many types of cars involves too great an investment... Until such time as a better material is available, Red Ball car sides will continue to be made of cardboard.
>
> Newton's resoning was supported by many modelers as his embossed printed car sides for reefers and standard boxcars continued in popularity for 40 more years, into the 1980's, the "Craftman Kit" era, until only eclipsed in variety of railroad-specific models by the acclaimed resin manufacturers such as Westerfield and Sunshine. And Newton was also correct about the embossed sheet metal car dies (and later injection molding dies) being expensive, as Athearn and Varney offered only a limited number of standard box car and reefer types, simply varying the paint schemes in their popular and highly regarded popular lines that we continue to collect and run today.
>
> Certainly the quality of card-sided cars varied by not only the manufacturer, but also model. There were some pretty basic ones made, each line including Red Ball had its plain-Jane simple models, but some had kits that no effort was spared on to make a superior model that can hold the interest of a prototype-specific modeler today, as were Ideal's B&O corrugated wagon top box car and crane, both recently discussed here.
>
> All above, my way of saying card-sided models were not just intended as war-time substitues, though some were and that both reatively poor quality as well as top quality models can be made of embossed card. (Whew!)
>
> W Jay W.
>
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
> >
> > Larry, Thank you very MUCH for digging out and posting the MR ad for the
> > complete line of Megow structures. Looks like they couldn't have been much
> > later in their "pre-War" offerings as not only do they appear in 1942, but at
> > the very end of that year. This of course explains why I hadn't seen them
> > in my 1941 catalog, but being primarily cardstock (and wood?), these would
> > have been the perfect line to continue during the War as a revenue-maker for
> > the company as it's doubtful they contained any metal. I appreciate your
> > adding to the history and offerings of Megow which was otherwise easily
> > overlooked.
> >
> > As we all know, or at least as far as I know, all (or at least most) metals
> > were restricted from such hobby use during the War which was also the
> > primary reason for Varney going to their bare-bones Main Line kits. I do have
> > the standard 6 1/4" x 10 1/4" Mantua catalogs dated for 1942 - First Edition
> > as printed on the front cover, containing all of their offerings from the
> > 1941 catalogs and before, bearing a copyright date of 1942 on the inside front
> > cover (there is no actual printing date as Varney had), which was
> > evidentally printed in '42 with the production cut-off date in mind. Unlike previous
> > years though, of which I have "First Edition," Second Edition," etc., there
> > was only one Edition for 1942. Incidentally, this SAME 1942 catalog was
> > used by Mantua (with the 1942 date on the front cover), for their 1945 catalog
> > as a copyright date of 1945 was printed on the inside front cover in place
> > of "1942."
> >
> > The 1942 catalog's listings were essentially the same as what was
> > previously being offered, including all their engine kits, although the cover was
> > different in that it was not just printed blue on white, but instead was dark
> > brown on yellow with sepia-tone photos, and the back cover was full-color.
> > We can be sure though, that as soon as supplies ran out, that they weren't
> > replaced until after the War as Mantua was one of the major hobby
> > manufacturers that converted their tooling towards the War effort. A note on next the
> > the last page (Page 47) with a heading "War Extra," states that "Due to
> > Government Conservation Orders to save Metal for the War Effort, we stopped
> > manufacturing Model Railroad Supplies on June 30th, 1942. This of course means
> > that all the Model supplies and kits listed in this catalogue will only be
> > available for some time . The other Locomotive kits are now almost all gone."
> >
> >
> > One reason I bring this up, besides possibly adding to the history of this
> > manufacturer for some members, is to get back to the more meager War-time
> > offerings of Megow, Varney and others which continued to sell kits of wood &
> > cardstock, and while these materials were apparently not espressly pointed
> > out by the government as being prohibited from being used in the production of
> > non-War related items, I distinctly remember during those War years that we
> > had weekly drives for placing not only our tin cans (after cutting out the
> > bottoms and flattening them) at the curb for pick up, for use in the War
> > effort, but also our tied bundles of newspaper which were also very much NEEDED
> > for the War effort -- although I don't know the purpose of this paper need.
> > With this apparent shortage and need for newsprint though by the War
> > Department, it strikes me as being counter to the Cause for any manufacturers to
> > use even paper (cardstock) products for any other use than for the War
> > effort, and not for their own profit in the manufacture of their own products.
> > As there seems to be a contradiction here, I was wondering if anyone could
> > fill in why this commodity was allowed for such use by the government when
> > they instituted collections of it for our War needs. Ray F.W.</HTML>
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13136 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Hi Dave, I understood you, but just developed the thread as Ray F.W. also raised the subject of what all that paper collected was used for in the war effort too -- I learned something as I had not even thought of the packing inside of shells!

I think those flat cars kits with the odd mix of giant metal staple-like stake sections and the paper covered end beams might have been by Ideal, not sure, as I will pull them out tonight, but my collection inventory notes here note no original boxes, so hope they have the instructions for a positive ID and hopefully a copyright date. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
>
> It's not the cardboard sides I was questioning (as I know they went on a LONG time), but rather the cardboard sides, wood floor and sill,
> COMBINED with cardboard end beams.
> Now, I've got a few units from pre, mid, and post war.
> They have stamped sheet metal end beams (with coupler hoops), die-cast, Tennite, or whatever.
>
> To have paper-based end beams, with coupler hoops (simulating end of draft gear box), and then metal stakes, is odd.
>
> Dave
>
>
> > Hi Ray F.W., Dave, and All,
> >
> > A study of that part of American history (WW2) reveals that sometimes the material collected in scrap drives exceeded war needs, but they were continued nevertheless as the drives were seen in Washington of being another way of involving the public directly in the War effort. While paper was rationed to magazines like Model Railroader, it was still somewhat available for other varied uses and usually in lesser quality.
> >
> > What was the paper used for? One article says: "...by September 1943, it was determined that 70,000,000 tons of waste paper would be required for the war effort over the next year. Increased demand by the armed forces and the decrease in virgin pulpwood was responsible for the shortage. The WPB (War Production Board) estimated that 30 thousand tons of paperboard was needed each month for packing shells alone. Over one million paper milk bottles were used daily in army camps." So the war needs for paper was clearly there, but those primary uses limited, not eliminated other consumer uses.
> >
> > And as it was pointed out, while many HO manufacturers like Varney. Megow, Ideal concentrated on featuring card sided models during the war (as hobbies in general were seen as positive activities for war-weary civilians), the use of card-sided models both before and afterwards was attributed to printed, embossed card's ability to replicate parts of freight cars better than any other material widely available at the time. The art of printng "Decalcomanias" as decals were called, was in its infancy in the late 1930s as were model paints and it took another few years for those mediums to develop to the better quality as we know them today.
> >
> > No one better stated the reasons for using card sides than this: In Red Ball's catalog #4 issued circa 1947, M. Dale Newton, founder of Red Ball wrote, "We have been asked many times why we do not use metal instead of cardboard for our car sides. There are several reasons; paper is our medium, and we understand it. [Newton was a printer by trade-J.] We believe better (more intricate) lettering may be had on its surface and that more detailed embossing can be done on it. It is not economically practical to make short runs when lithographing sheet metal. Long runs [in sheet metal-J] on many types of cars involves too great an investment... Until such time as a better material is available, Red Ball car sides will continue to be made of cardboard.
> >
> > Newton's resoning was supported by many modelers as his embossed printed car sides for reefers and standard boxcars continued in popularity for 40 more years, into the 1980's, the "Craftman Kit" era, until only eclipsed in variety of railroad-specific models by the acclaimed resin manufacturers such as Westerfield and Sunshine. And Newton was also correct about the embossed sheet metal car dies (and later injection molding dies) being expensive, as Athearn and Varney offered only a limited number of standard box car and reefer types, simply varying the paint schemes in their popular and highly regarded popular lines that we continue to collect and run today.
> >
> > Certainly the quality of card-sided cars varied by not only the manufacturer, but also model. There were some pretty basic ones made, each line including Red Ball had its plain-Jane simple models, but some had kits that no effort was spared on to make a superior model that can hold the interest of a prototype-specific modeler today, as were Ideal's B&O corrugated wagon top box car and crane, both recently discussed here.
> >
> > All above, my way of saying card-sided models were not just intended as war-time substitues, though some were and that both reatively poor quality as well as top quality models can be made of embossed card. (Whew!)
> >
> > W Jay W.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Larry, Thank you very MUCH for digging out and posting the MR ad for the
> > > complete line of Megow structures. Looks like they couldn't have been much
> > > later in their "pre-War" offerings as not only do they appear in 1942, but at
> > > the very end of that year. This of course explains why I hadn't seen them
> > > in my 1941 catalog, but being primarily cardstock (and wood?), these would
> > > have been the perfect line to continue during the War as a revenue-maker for
> > > the company as it's doubtful they contained any metal. I appreciate your
> > > adding to the history and offerings of Megow which was otherwise easily
> > > overlooked.
> > >
> > > As we all know, or at least as far as I know, all (or at least most) metals
> > > were restricted from such hobby use during the War which was also the
> > > primary reason for Varney going to their bare-bones Main Line kits. I do have
> > > the standard 6 1/4" x 10 1/4" Mantua catalogs dated for 1942 - First Edition
> > > as printed on the front cover, containing all of their offerings from the
> > > 1941 catalogs and before, bearing a copyright date of 1942 on the inside front
> > > cover (there is no actual printing date as Varney had), which was
> > > evidentally printed in '42 with the production cut-off date in mind. Unlike previous
> > > years though, of which I have "First Edition," Second Edition," etc., there
> > > was only one Edition for 1942. Incidentally, this SAME 1942 catalog was
> > > used by Mantua (with the 1942 date on the front cover), for their 1945 catalog
> > > as a copyright date of 1945 was printed on the inside front cover in place
> > > of "1942."
> > >
> > > The 1942 catalog's listings were essentially the same as what was
> > > previously being offered, including all their engine kits, although the cover was
> > > different in that it was not just printed blue on white, but instead was dark
> > > brown on yellow with sepia-tone photos, and the back cover was full-color.
> > > We can be sure though, that as soon as supplies ran out, that they weren't
> > > replaced until after the War as Mantua was one of the major hobby
> > > manufacturers that converted their tooling towards the War effort. A note on next the
> > > the last page (Page 47) with a heading "War Extra," states that "Due to
> > > Government Conservation Orders to save Metal for the War Effort, we stopped
> > > manufacturing Model Railroad Supplies on June 30th, 1942. This of course means
> > > that all the Model supplies and kits listed in this catalogue will only be
> > > available for some time . The other Locomotive kits are now almost all gone."
> > >
> > >
> > > One reason I bring this up, besides possibly adding to the history of this
> > > manufacturer for some members, is to get back to the more meager War-time
> > > offerings of Megow, Varney and others which continued to sell kits of wood &
> > > cardstock, and while these materials were apparently not espressly pointed
> > > out by the government as being prohibited from being used in the production of
> > > non-War related items, I distinctly remember during those War years that we
> > > had weekly drives for placing not only our tin cans (after cutting out the
> > > bottoms and flattening them) at the curb for pick up, for use in the War
> > > effort, but also our tied bundles of newspaper which were also very much NEEDED
> > > for the War effort -- although I don't know the purpose of this paper need.
> > > With this apparent shortage and need for newsprint though by the War
> > > Department, it strikes me as being counter to the Cause for any manufacturers to
> > > use even paper (cardstock) products for any other use than for the War
> > > effort, and not for their own profit in the manufacture of their own products.
> > > As there seems to be a contradiction here, I was wondering if anyone could
> > > fill in why this commodity was allowed for such use by the government when
> > > they instituted collections of it for our War needs. Ray F.W.</HTML>
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13137 From: Bill Daley Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Athern Hustler
Group,

About a year ago, there was a lively discussion about the Athern "Hustler", which I glossed over.

Recently, our club bought boxes of long-stored engines and cars from a person wishing to divest of them.

Among the engines were 2 Hustlers. Dirty and no rubber bands. We're going to rehab them. Where do we buy new rubber drive bands?

Thanks in advance

Retired Grouch in South Jersey
Group: vintageHO Message: 13138 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Athearn still sells them
<http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH90101>. Or you
can go to your local dollar store and find bags of rubber bands that are
intended for holding hair. Another source is the bands used by kids with
some kinds of orthodontic braces.

Mike (Retired grouch in Northern NJ)

Bill Daley wrote:
>
>
> Group,
>
> About a year ago, there was a lively discussion about the Athern
> "Hustler", which I glossed over.
>
> Recently, our club bought boxes of long-stored engines and cars from a
> person wishing to divest of them.
>
> Among the engines were 2 Hustlers. Dirty and no rubber bands. We're
> going to rehab them. Where do we buy new rubber drive bands?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Retired Grouch in South Jersey
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13139 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
From Athearn if they still list them.  On Ebay in a pinch.  Go to the girls haircare aisle in a drug or department store and look for the small pony tail bands.  Make sure to get the small bands if you try this.  If you know an Orthodontist, the small rubber bands for moving teeth work well.  I used two of these together on each wheel when I could get them and they were great.

Also do a search of our messages for other ideas.

Don Staton in VA
=================================================

Bill Daley wrote:
 

Group,

About a year ago, there was a lively discussion about the Athern "Hustler", which I glossed over.

Recently, our club bought boxes of long-stored engines and cars from a person wishing to divest of them.

Among the engines were 2 Hustlers. Dirty and no rubber bands. We're going to rehab them. Where do we buy new rubber drive bands?

Thanks in advance

Retired Grouch in South Jersey

Group: vintageHO Message: 13140 From: herb1013 Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
On 2/9/2010 12:35 PM, Bill Daley wrote:
 

Group,

About a year ago, there was a lively discussion about the Athern "Hustler", which I glossed over.

Recently, our club bought boxes of long-stored engines and cars from a person wishing to divest of them.

Among the engines were 2 Hustlers. Dirty and no rubber bands. We're going to rehab them. Where do we buy new rubber drive bands?

Thanks in advance

Retired Grouch in South Jersey

    HI RETIRED GROUCH. GO TO www.athearn.com/parts
    FROM ANOTHER RETIRED OLD GROUCH



--
BIONIC HERB BRANCH 38 GODS KNOB,MILK CAN CORNERS SUSQUEHANNA COUNTY,PA.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13141 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Please clarify:  Are you retired from being a grouch, or a grouch who has retired?
 
gj       8^)  
----- Original Message -----
From: herb1013
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athern Hustler

On 2/9/2010 12:35 PM, Bill Daley wrote:
 

Group,

About a year ago, there was a lively discussion about the Athern "Hustler", which I glossed over.

Recently, our club bought boxes of long-stored engines and cars from a person wishing to divest of them.

Among the engines were 2 Hustlers. Dirty and no rubber bands. We're going to rehab them. Where do we buy new rubber drive bands?

Thanks in advance

Retired Grouch in South Jersey

    HI RETIRED GROUCH. GO TO www.athearn.com/parts
    FROM ANOTHER RETIRED OLD GROUCH



--
BIONIC HERB BRANCH 38 GODS KNOB,MILK CAN CORNERS SUSQUEHANNA COUNTY,PA.



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2677 - Release Date: 02/09/10 07:35:00

Group: vintageHO Message: 13142 From: ron plyler Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
These belts are available from My Atomic Hobbies, $2.99 plus $2.50 shipping. Currently on E-bay. ATH90101
Group: vintageHO Message: 13143 From: herb1013 Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
On 2/9/2010 1:21 PM, Glenn476 wrote:
 

Please clarify:  Are you retired from being a grouch, or a grouch who has retired?
 
gj

HI SOUTH JERSEY GROUCH. I AM A GROUCH WHO HAS RETIRED.I'M ALSO A RETIRED GROUCH FROM NORTH JERSEY BUT ESCAPED TO PENNSYLVANIA 22 YEARS AGO. TO HERE
www.angelfire.com/pa/bonniedellfarm  
BIONIC HERB
--
BIONIC HERB BRANCH 38 GODS KNOB,MILK CAN CORNERS SUSQUEHANNA COUNTY,PA.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13144 From: nvrr49 Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
They also, I believe, had a bridge and a oil tank. I think I have both of these and will try and take some pictures.

Kent in KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Lawrence Orr <mh18fd@...> wrote:
>
> Attached is a scanned copy of the rear cover of the Decamber,1942 issue of "The Model Craftsman" magazine, that lists all of the Megow buildings available at that time.
>  
> Larry
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13145 From: Bill Daley Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
The latter. I was already grouchy and a curmudgeon
 when I retired. My ex-coworkers were happy to see me go.
 
BillD 
--- On Tue, 2/9/10, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athern Hustler
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 1:21 PM

 
Please clarify:  Are you retired from being a grouch, or a grouch who has retired?
 
gj       8^)  
----- Original Message -----
From: herb1013
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athern Hustler

On 2/9/2010 12:35 PM, Bill Daley wrote:
 
Group,

About a year ago, there was a lively discussion about the Athern "Hustler", which I glossed over.

Recently, our club bought boxes of long-stored engines and cars from a person wishing to divest of them.

Among the engines were 2 Hustlers. Dirty and no rubber bands. We're going to rehab them. Where do we buy new rubber drive bands?

Thanks in advance

Retired Grouch in South Jersey

    HI RETIRED GROUCH. GO TO www.athearn. com/parts
    FROM ANOTHER RETIRED OLD GROUCH


--
BIONIC HERB BRANCH 38 GODS KNOB,MILK CAN CORNERS SUSQUEHANNA COUNTY,PA.


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2677 - Release Date: 02/09/10 07:35:00

Group: vintageHO Message: 13146 From: RalphB Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Wanted
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Charlie wrote:
>
> I would be interested in the shell(s) one or two.
--------------
There are a couple of reasons I was willing to part with the chassis (they're in the mail to Don), but not the shells. First, one of the shells was damaged when I tried to model the first E-unit that Amtrak painted, that infamous black one with the pointless arrow. It was something I tried to do when I was in college (Boy, that was a long time ago!) and I never did finish it.

The other reason is that I have other chassis on which I can use the shells. I can simply swap bodies around depending on what era and what railroad I happen to be running. I do the same thing with my Athearn Alco PAs - three different shells (D&H, EL, and NYC), but only one powered and one dummy chassis.

Ralph
Group: vintageHO Message: 13147 From: bob d Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Wanted
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Charlie wrote:
> >
> > I would be interested in the shell(s) one or two.
> --------------
> There are a couple of reasons I was willing to part with the chassis (they're in the mail to Don), but not the shells. First, one of the shells was damaged when I tried to model the first E-unit that Amtrak painted, that infamous black one with the pointless arrow. It was something I tried to do when I was in college (Boy, that was a long time ago!) and I never did finish it.
>
> The other reason is that I have other chassis on which I can use the shells. I can simply swap bodies around depending on what era and what railroad I happen to be running. I do the same thing with my Athearn Alco PAs - three different shells (D&H, EL, and NYC), but only one powered and one dummy chassis.
>
> Ralph
>
Charlie,

I have the two shells from the the two powered chassis' Don bought from me. The two shells are in good shape. Window and light "glass" is present, but each is missing one horn. Ladder stirrups are intact. I will email you with more details, such as price. I will have to calculate shipping as it will need to go overseas, obviously.

One shell is a Northern Pacific that someone has tried to unsuccessfully strip. Probably used isopropyl alcohol, and most of these shells require the use of brake fluid. The other looks to be another bad strip job of an Amtrack unit, but has been painted a matte(not primer) black. I was going to strip it again and repaint it.

I was going to mount the shells on P2K chassis, but I have way too many engines now and this seems like a good opportunity to thin the herd.

Bob
Group: vintageHO Message: 13148 From: bob d Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
For a shocking, yet truthful reply on the rubber bands....I bought mine at Dollar Tree. This is not a joke, nor is it a prank. I bought a lifetime supply at Dollar Tree for a buck for my old "amp hog" Athearns.

bob d (another crusty, old grouch)

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Bill Daley <retiredgrouch@...> wrote:
>
> Group,
>
> About a year ago, there was a lively discussion about the Athern "Hustler", which I glossed over.
>
> Recently, our club bought boxes of long-stored engines and cars from a person wishing to divest of them.
>
> Among the engines were 2 Hustlers. Dirty and no rubber bands. We're going to rehab them. Where do we buy new rubber drive bands?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Retired Grouch in South Jersey
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13149 From: Don Grant Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Athern Hustler
Athearn #90101 is still available.
Best
Don

--- On Tue, 2/9/10, Bill Daley <retiredgrouch@...> wrote:

From: Bill Daley <retiredgrouch@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Athern Hustler
To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 9:35 AM

Group,

About a year ago, there was a lively discussion about the Athern "Hustler", which I glossed over.

Recently, our club bought boxes of long-stored engines and cars from a person wishing to divest of them.

Among the engines were 2 Hustlers.  Dirty and no rubber bands.  We're going to rehab them. Where do we buy new rubber drive bands?

Thanks in advance

Retired Grouch in South Jersey


     


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Group: vintageHO Message: 13150 From: Charlie Date: 2/9/2010
Subject: Re: Wanted
Hi Bob

That sounds good. Any condition suits me. Kitbashing a Rock Island AB6.
charlie at tech-j.biz

Thanks

Charlie



bob d wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@. ..> wrote:
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, Charlie wrote:
> > >
> > > I would be interested in the shell(s) one or two.
> > ------------ --
> > There are a couple of reasons I was willing to part with the chassis
> (they're in the mail to Don), but not the shells. First, one of the
> shells was damaged when I tried to model the first E-unit that Amtrak
> painted, that infamous black one with the pointless arrow. It was
> something I tried to do when I was in college (Boy, that was a long
> time ago!) and I never did finish it.
> >
> > The other reason is that I have other chassis on which I can use the
> shells. I can simply swap bodies around depending on what era and what
> railroad I happen to be running. I do the same thing with my Athearn
> Alco PAs - three different shells (D&H, EL, and NYC), but only one
> powered and one dummy chassis.
> >
> > Ralph
> >
> Charlie,
>
> I have the two shells from the the two powered chassis' Don bought
> from me. The two shells are in good shape. Window and light "glass" is
> present, but each is missing one horn. Ladder stirrups are intact. I
> will email you with more details, such as price. I will have to
> calculate shipping as it will need to go overseas, obviously.
>
> One shell is a Northern Pacific that someone has tried to
> unsuccessfully strip. Probably used isopropyl alcohol, and most of
> these shells require the use of brake fluid. The other looks to be
> another bad strip job of an Amtrack unit, but has been painted a
> matte(not primer) black. I was going to strip it again and repaint it.
>
> I was going to mount the shells on P2K chassis, but I have way too
> many engines now and this seems like a good opportunity to thin the herd.
>
> Bob
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13151 From: Matthew Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Pony Tail Bands -- was: Re: Athern Hustler
Just a note on the 'pony tail' bands they sell at CVS and other stores -- they are a polymer and not a rubber-based product (only us old Chem guys care about that) but that means they don't have the same elasticity as rubber bands. For this reason they are less prone to the slight jerks and shudders at low speeds that we used to see with the Athearn Hi-F drives with the rubber bands. I have one of the old Pittman "improved" Hi-F drives in an Athearn GP9 and it runs very well, even at low speeds, with the polymer 'pony tail' bands.

Matt Coleman

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
>
> /From Athearn if they still list them. On Ebay in a pinch. Go to the
> girls haircare aisle in a drug or department store and look for the
> small pony tail bands. Make sure to get the small bands if you try
> this. If you know an Orthodontist, the small rubber bands for moving
> teeth work well. I used two of these together on each wheel when I
> could get them and they were great.
>
> Also do a search of our messages for other ideas.
>
> Don Staton in VA
> =================================================
Group: vintageHO Message: 13152 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (item
I guess no takers - shipping cost was a little extreme at $14.
 
Nice mint original kit.
 
Jim Waterman
Group: vintageHO Message: 13153 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (
Jim,
 
As a seller and a buyer, It troubles me to see sellers trying to charge too much for packing and shipping. I understand their reasoning, just don't agree with it. I like to cover my costs and that is it.
 
$14 for s/h on a single car which would weigh under 1 pound when packed = no bid from me. I can ship a 1 pound item to CA from PA for $5.55 Priority USPS, unfortunately a 1 pound 1 ounce item is $9.55 via the same Priority.
 
That extra ~$8 for the handling is just too much for me.
 
Sean


From: Jim Waterman <Watermaj@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 5:04:52 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (item

 

I guess no takers - shipping cost was a little extreme at $14.
 
Nice mint original kit.
 
Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO Message: 13154 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
group.

File : /V List Megow cars.xls
Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
Description : Listing of Megow cars and kits

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Megow%20cars.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13155 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
W. Jay W's discussion of the wartime HO card-sided models is right-
on. Although many (who should have known better) over the years have
put their noses in the air about the card sides, they should not have
done so. As mentioned, some sides were better than others: Card
board or card stock could be made of Bristol Board (Strathmore) or
other very high-rag content archival type of paper, others chose wood-
pulp-backed card stock. The former have survived, and the latter have
either passed from, or are passing from the scene because of internal
acidification. Notably in the former category are the Varney sides,
especially after the foil-era, and the M. Dale Newton sides. Notably
in the latter were the earliest c. 1937 ff. Varney embossed sides,
most of which are held together today only by molecules holding hands.

In another way, the card sides could and did excel: Both Varney and
M. Dale Newton relied on personal broadside photographic recording of
freight and reefer cars for their printed car sides. As a result,
these car sides receive a great deal of respect by prototype freight
car historians for their prototype accuracy.

Varney reefer R5 of 1937, Milw STEEL URTX 81307 was one of the very
first embossed side models, and is exceeding rare today, not the least
because the sides failed. The board was pulp-backed, i.e. like shirt
cardboard, but had a coated paper front surface which accepted the
embossing and printing quite well. Some years ago, over several
evenings I meticulously broke the bond between and separated the
intact printed coated-paper surface from its rotting pulp backing,
replacing the failed backing with 0.015" Strathmore paper re-cemented
with thinned white glue. This resulted in the saving of and
stabilization of these rare car sides, now once again gracing the
sides of a restored car body.

Note that what I am describing above is not the separate cardboard
backing that Varney eventually provided to strengthen the car sides
(the modeler glued them them together as a sandwich- causing yet other
long term problems!).

Note than in a recent RMC article on Varney, the author erroneously
depicted, and clearly misidentified a Varney Milwaukee WOOD reefer
R-15 as R-5. They were different models of two different types of
cars, and the sides were printed on two different types of paper.
R-5 did not last past the beginning of WWII, while R-15 continued
until 1949. The former is a true rare bird. The latter is relatively
common. Both make fine models.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento
Group: vintageHO Message: 13156 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (
I agree, and it is a problem that FleaBay claims they are addressing, though not as much as they could.

Before I got a shop that is literally two blocks from the post office (Back in the days I built computers out of my home), I would charge $1.75 in handling, to cover bus fare to and from the post office. I stopped doing that when I got my shop.

I once sold a pair of JC Silversides coaches to a guy who I could not make happy. Charged actual cost for a medium flatrate box. He still threatened to complain to eBay that I was 'profiteering' off shipping. Yes, one of THOSE kinds of buyers.

Haven't logged in to EvilBay in a long time, and I don't intend to either. Pretty much done with them.

Ontopic:

I did look at the car, without logging in, and it didn't look like anything special to me. But then, I didn't know either that Penn Line made Milwaukee coaches.

At one point (I have since traded this car), I had a HObbyline chair car in Milwaukee orange, maroon, and black, a heavyweight. Picked it up at Sommerfelds Trains in Butler, WI. Even had Central Valley trucks on it! Don't know if it was painted from the factory like that or if it was an excellent repaint. Trucks of couse were added, so who knows what else.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Wed, 2/10/10, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (item
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 4:24 PM

 

Jim,
 
As a seller and a buyer, It troubles me to see sellers trying to charge too much for packing and shipping. I understand their reasoning, just don't agree with it. I like to cover my costs and that is it.
 
$14 for s/h on a single car which would weigh under 1 pound when packed = no bid from me. I can ship a 1 pound item to CA from PA for $5.55 Priority USPS, unfortunately a 1 pound 1 ounce item is $9.55 via the same Priority.
 
That extra ~$8 for the handling is just too much for me.
 
Sean


From: Jim Waterman <Watermaj@comcast. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 5:04:52 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:PENNLINE HO OBSERVATION CAR KIT MILWAUKEE RD STREAMLINE - eBay (item

 

I guess no takers - shipping cost was a little extreme at $14.
 
Nice mint original kit.
 
Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO Message: 13157 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
So far as the MIlwaukee car: Was that the Yellowbird color scheme?

I have one of two sides, but the graphics appear to be cracking apart.

I used to create my own card freight cars using CAD. I took three years of CAD class in High School (It was a two year class, but I was a teachers assistant the third year). The teacher got me a copy of the program, and I used to draw car kits.

I did a couple Milwaukee reefers, in orange and yellow.

What I used to do is go to railroad museums, and photograph what I was making, putting a ruler in the photo. I would literally count rivets to make sure my model had the correct number and placement of them too!

Nice thing about using CAD, is that I can use layers in my drawing for different sets of details.

Take a 40' AAR boxcar: Many door, roof, end, and riveting (Or welding) details. To make all these changes, I make a base drawing of the basic dimensions and other things that do not change. Then I use layers that can be turned on and off (Visible and not visible) for things like doors, riveting, weld lines, and so forth. The result is something customized to an exact prototype with very little effort.

Somewhere in my dad's basement I have the discs for the program and backups of my drawings. Would LOVE to print some up again!

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Wed, 2/10/10, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 4:41 PM

 

W. Jay W's discussion of the wartime HO card-sided models is right-
on. Although many (who should have known better) over the years have
put their noses in the air about the card sides, they should not have
done so. As mentioned, some sides were better than others: Card
board or card stock could be made of Bristol Board (Strathmore) or
other very high-rag content archival type of paper, others chose wood-
pulp-backed card stock. The former have survived, and the latter have
either passed from, or are passing from the scene because of internal
acidification. Notably in the former category are the Varney sides,
especially after the foil-era, and the M. Dale Newton sides. Notably
in the latter were the earliest c. 1937 ff. Varney embossed sides,
most of which are held together today only by molecules holding hands.

In another way, the card sides could and did excel: Both Varney and
M. Dale Newton relied on personal broadside photographic recording of
freight and reefer cars for their printed car sides. As a result,
these car sides receive a great deal of respect by prototype freight
car historians for their prototype accuracy.

Varney reefer R5 of 1937, Milw STEEL URTX 81307 was one of the very
first embossed side models, and is exceeding rare today, not the least
because the sides failed. The board was pulp-backed, i.e. like shirt
cardboard, but had a coated paper front surface which accepted the
embossing and printing quite well. Some years ago, over several
evenings I meticulously broke the bond between and separated the
intact printed coated-paper surface from its rotting pulp backing,
replacing the failed backing with 0.015" Strathmore paper re-cemented
with thinned white glue. This resulted in the saving of and
stabilization of these rare car sides, now once again gracing the
sides of a restored car body.

Note that what I am describing above is not the separate cardboard
backing that Varney eventually provided to strengthen the car sides
(the modeler glued them them together as a sandwich- causing yet other
long term problems!).

Note than in a recent RMC article on Varney, the author erroneously
depicted, and clearly misidentified a Varney Milwaukee WOOD reefer
R-15 as R-5. They were different models of two different types of
cars, and the sides were printed on two different types of paper.
R-5 did not last past the beginning of WWII, while R-15 continued
until 1949. The former is a true rare bird. The latter is relatively
common. Both make fine models.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

Group: vintageHO Message: 13158 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
I have been restoring a bunch of paper/cardboard sided cars, Varney, Megow, probably Red Ball, and orthers not yet identified.
My problem has been the bottom edges and corners.
Rough handling over the decades has caused the sides to fray in these areas.

I learned in my first couple of restorations to soak the area with super glue until it quits soaking in.

This makes it hard enough to file and sane if necessary.

I also add wood strip filler/braces lengthwise on the bottom of the floor, up against the overhang if needed.

I have a couple of Megow yellow reefers, chipped in a couple of places due to rough handling....and faded.
Mixed up some Floquil reefer yellow and white to match, when dry, hit the car with Krylon Satin Matte clear.
Color comes back almost as good as new!

A couple had roofs loose, so I removed them, did the super-gue trick on the backside and edges, painted the roofs, glued them back with clear 5-minute epoxy.

Boy, they look good.
Nothing at all like the junkers I took out of the bag.

Next is a Varney Santa Fe cardboard-side reefer, once I find two more hatches.

Dave

> W. Jay W's discussion of the wartime HO card-sided models is right-
> on. Although many (who should have known better) over the years have
> put their noses in the air about the card sides, they should not have
> done so. As mentioned, some sides were better than others: Card
> board or card stock could be made of Bristol Board (Strathmore) or
> other very high-rag content archival type of paper, others chose wood-
> pulp-backed card stock. The former have survived, and the latter have
> either passed from, or are passing from the scene because of internal
> acidification. Notably in the former category are the Varney sides,
> especially after the foil-era, and the M. Dale Newton sides. Notably
> in the latter were the earliest c. 1937 ff. Varney embossed sides,
> most of which are held together today only by molecules holding hands.
>
> In another way, the card sides could and did excel: Both Varney and
> M. Dale Newton relied on personal broadside photographic recording of
> freight and reefer cars for their printed car sides. As a result,
> these car sides receive a great deal of respect by prototype freight
> car historians for their prototype accuracy.
>
> Varney reefer R5 of 1937, Milw STEEL URTX 81307 was one of the very
> first embossed side models, and is exceeding rare today, not the least
> because the sides failed. The board was pulp-backed, i.e. like shirt
> cardboard, but had a coated paper front surface which accepted the
> embossing and printing quite well. Some years ago, over several
> evenings I meticulously broke the bond between and separated the
> intact printed coated-paper surface from its rotting pulp backing,
> replacing the failed backing with 0.015" Strathmore paper re-cemented
> with thinned white glue. This resulted in the saving of and
> stabilization of these rare car sides, now once again gracing the
> sides of a restored car body.
>
> Note that what I am describing above is not the separate cardboard
> backing that Varney eventually provided to strengthen the car sides
> (the modeler glued them them together as a sandwich- causing yet other
> long term problems!).
>
> Note than in a recent RMC article on Varney, the author erroneously
> depicted, and clearly misidentified a Varney Milwaukee WOOD reefer
> R-15 as R-5. They were different models of two different types of
> cars, and the sides were printed on two different types of paper.
> R-5 did not last past the beginning of WWII, while R-15 continued
> until 1949. The former is a true rare bird. The latter is relatively
> common. Both make fine models.
>
> Denny
>
> Denny S. Anspach MD
> Sacramento
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13159 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Steve
I tried e-mailing you to the e-mail shown on this forum.

I am guessing it never made it.

I need some Megow trucks.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13160 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: Steve
Just sent you an email.

You're right, I did not get an email from you.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Wed, 2/10/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Steve
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 5:26 PM

 

I tried e-mailing you to the e-mail shown on this forum.

I am guessing it never made it.

I need some Megow trucks.

Dave

Group: vintageHO Message: 13161 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Megow
I had searched the Megow information heavily, and the olny boxcar type was the B&O wagon-top boxcar.

Now, in the latest files, I see an SP boxcar, QD-26.

I need to see a picture of that if someone has one, please, or at least the number on the side.
Mine has what I think is 38135 on the side.

Also, the Santa Fe Reefer, QD-14.

Anybody have a picture or the road number on the side?

Just trying to for-sure identify some of this stuff.

Thanks!

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13162 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
I have the SP boxcar here, and some other boxcars I think are Megows. Got a Wabash, a C&O, a Southern, and a couple others I can't think of.

Megow did a wagon top in B&O and some regular AAR boxcars too.

All are who-knows-where. Somewhere in my home, that is all I know.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Wed, 2/10/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Megow
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 5:39 PM

 

I had searched the Megow information heavily, and the olny boxcar type was the B&O wagon-top boxcar.

Now, in the latest files, I see an SP boxcar, QD-26.

I need to see a picture of that if someone has one, please, or at least the number on the side.
Mine has what I think is 38135 on the side.

Also, the Santa Fe Reefer, QD-14.

Anybody have a picture or the road number on the side?

Just trying to for-sure identify some of this stuff.

Thanks!

Dave

Group: vintageHO Message: 13163 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
I thought this SF reefer might have been an early Varney, based upon the roof and ice hatches.

But, looking more closely, the chassis is like the Megows (along with the rib down each side), and no Varney part number on the side.

My road number is 16147, if anybody can ID that.

Thanks!

Dave
> I have the SP boxcar here, and some other boxcars I think are Megows. Got a Wabash, a C&O, a Southern, and a couple others I can't think of.
>
> Megow did a wagon top in B&O and some regular AAR boxcars too.
>
> All are who-knows-where. Somewhere in my home, that is all I know.
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
> --- On Wed, 2/10/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Megow
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 5:39 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I had searched the Megow information heavily, and the olny boxcar type was the B&O wagon-top boxcar.
>
>
>
> Now, in the latest files, I see an SP boxcar, QD-26.
>
>
>
> I need to see a picture of that if someone has one, please, or at least the number on the side.
>
> Mine has what I think is 38135 on the side.
>
>
>
> Also, the Santa Fe Reefer, QD-14.
>
>
>
> Anybody have a picture or the road number on the side?
>
>
>
> Just trying to for-sure identify some of this stuff.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13164 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Varney
Anyone have a Varney paper-sie R-2 (SFRD) reefer?

Does it have a road number of 16147?

I was able to blow the Megow page up enough to see this is NOT the Megow road number.

Thanks.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13165 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Is this the Varney R-5?

--- On Wed, 2/10/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 4:23 PM


I have been restoring a bunch of paper/cardboard sided cars, Varney, Megow, probably Red Ball, and orthers not yet identified.
My problem has been the bottom edges and corners.
Rough handling over the decades has caused the sides to fray in these areas.

I learned in my first couple of restorations to soak the area with super glue until it quits soaking in.

This makes it hard enough to file and sane if necessary.

I also add wood strip filler/braces lengthwise on the bottom of the floor, up against the overhang if needed.

I have a couple of Megow yellow reefers, chipped in a couple of places due to rough handling....and faded.
Mixed up some Floquil reefer yellow and white to match, when dry, hit the car with Krylon Satin Matte clear.
Color comes back almost as good as new!

A couple had roofs loose, so I removed them, did the super-gue trick on the backside and edges, painted the roofs, glued them back with clear 5-minute epoxy.

Boy, they look good.
Nothing at all like the junkers I took out of the bag.

Next is a Varney Santa Fe cardboard-side reefer, once I find two more hatches.

Dave

> W. Jay W's discussion of the wartime HO card-sided models is right-
> on.  Although many  (who should have known better) over the years have 
> put their noses in the air about the card sides, they should not have 
> done so.  As mentioned, some sides were better than others:  Card 
> board or card stock could be made of Bristol Board (Strathmore) or 
> other very high-rag content archival type of paper, others chose wood-
> pulp-backed card stock. The former have survived, and the latter have 
> either passed from, or are passing from the scene because of internal 
> acidification. Notably in the former category are the Varney sides, 
> especially after the foil-era, and the M. Dale Newton sides.  Notably 
> in the latter  were the earliest c. 1937 ff. Varney embossed sides, 
> most of which are held together today only by molecules holding hands.
>
> In another way, the card sides could and did excel:  Both Varney and 
> M. Dale Newton relied on personal broadside photographic recording of 
> freight and reefer cars  for their printed car sides. As a result, 
> these car sides receive a great deal of respect by prototype freight 
> car historians for their prototype accuracy.
>
> Varney reefer R5 of 1937, Milw STEEL URTX 81307  was one of the very 
> first embossed side models, and is exceeding rare today, not the least 
> because the sides failed. The board was pulp-backed, i.e. like shirt 
> cardboard, but had a coated paper front surface which accepted the 
> embossing and printing quite well. Some years ago, over several 
> evenings I meticulously broke the bond between and separated the 
> intact printed coated-paper surface from its rotting pulp backing, 
> replacing the failed backing with 0.015" Strathmore paper re-cemented 
> with thinned white glue. This resulted in the saving of and 
> stabilization of these rare car sides, now once again gracing the 
> sides of a restored car body.
>
> Note that what I am describing above is not the separate cardboard 
> backing that Varney eventually provided to strengthen the car sides 
> (the modeler glued them them together as a sandwich- causing yet other 
> long term problems!).
>
> Note than in a recent RMC article on Varney, the author erroneously 
> depicted, and clearly misidentified a Varney Milwaukee WOOD reefer 
> R-15 as R-5.  They were different models of two different types of 
> cars,  and the sides were printed on two different types of paper.   
> R-5 did not last past the beginning of WWII, while R-15 continued 
> until 1949. The former is a true rare bird.  The latter is relatively 
> common.   Both make fine models.
>
> Denny
>
> Denny S.  Anspach MD
> Sacramento
>




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  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13166 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Looks like it.
I need to know what number is on an R-2, Santa Fe (SFRD) reefer.
Trucks, underframe and all look like mine does.
Dave

>
> Is this the Varney R-5?
>
> --- On Wed, 2/10/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 4:23 PM
>
>
>
> I have been restoring a bunch of paper/cardboard sided cars, Varney, Megow, probably Red Ball, and orthers not yet identified.
> My problem has been the bottom edges and corners.
> Rough handling over the decades has caused the sides to fray in these areas..
>
> I learned in my first couple of restorations to soak the area with super glue until it quits soaking in.
>
> This makes it hard enough to file and sane if necessary.
>
> I also add wood strip filler/braces lengthwise on the bottom of the floor, up against the overhang if needed.
>
> I have a couple of Megow yellow reefers, chipped in a couple of places due to rough handling....and faded.
> Mixed up some Floquil reefer yellow and white to match, when dry, hit the car with Krylon Satin Matte clear.
> Color comes back almost as good as new!
>
> A couple had roofs loose, so I removed them, did the super-gue trick on the backside and edges, painted the roofs, glued them back with clear 5-minute epoxy.
>
> Boy, they look good.
> Nothing at all like the junkers I took out of the bag.
>
> Next is a Varney Santa Fe cardboard-side reefer, once I find two more hatches.
>
> Dave
>
> > W. Jay W's discussion of the wartime HO card-sided models is right-
> > on.  Although many  (who should have known better) over the years have 
> > put their noses in the air about the card sides, they should not have 
> > done so.  As mentioned, some sides were better than others:  Card 
> > board or card stock could be made of Bristol Board (Strathmore) or 
> > other very high-rag content archival type of paper, others chose wood-
> > pulp-backed card stock. The former have survived, and the latter have 
> > either passed from, or are passing from the scene because of internal 
> > acidification. Notably in the former category are the Varney sides, 
> > especially after the foil-era, and the M. Dale Newton sides.  Notably 
> > in the latter  were the earliest c. 1937 ff. Varney embossed sides, 
> > most of which are held together today only by molecules holding hands.
> >
> > In another way, the card sides could and did excel:  Both Varney and 
> > M. Dale Newton relied on personal broadside photographic recording of 
> > freight and reefer cars  for their printed car sides. As a result, 
> > these car sides receive a great deal of respect by prototype freight 
> > car historians for their prototype accuracy.
> >
> > Varney reefer R5 of 1937, Milw STEEL URTX 81307  was one of the very 
> > first embossed side models, and is exceeding rare today, not the least 
> > because the sides failed. The board was pulp-backed, i.e. like shirt 
> > cardboard, but had a coated paper front surface which accepted the 
> > embossing and printing quite well. Some years ago, over several 
> > evenings I meticulously broke the bond between and separated the 
> > intact printed coated-paper surface from its rotting pulp backing, 
> > replacing the failed backing with 0.015" Strathmore paper re-cemented 
> > with thinned white glue. This resulted in the saving of and 
> > stabilization of these rare car sides, now once again gracing the 
> > sides of a restored car body.
> >
> > Note that what I am describing above is not the separate cardboard 
> > backing that Varney eventually provided to strengthen the car sides 
> > (the modeler glued them them together as a sandwich- causing yet other 
> > long term problems!).
> >
> > Note than in a recent RMC article on Varney, the author erroneously 
> > depicted, and clearly misidentified a Varney Milwaukee WOOD reefer 
> > R-15 as R-5.  They were different models of two different types of 
> > cars,  and the sides were printed on two different types of paper.   
> > R-5 did not last past the beginning of WWII, while R-15 continued 
> > until 1949. The former is a true rare bird.  The latter is relatively 
> > common.   Both make fine models.
> >
> > Denny
> >
> > Denny S.  Anspach MD
> > Sacramento
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13167 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 2/10/2010
Subject: MRH Newsletter Available Now Free
Free for your enjoyment....
 
The February 2010 Newsletter from Model Railroad Hobbyist eZine is now available free at http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com.
 
Richard Bale
News Editor
Group: vintageHO Message: 13168 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Latest project
Uploaded a photo of my latest project, Milwaukee Northern No 5940, the "Rib
Mountain". This is a Blue line, the original 1948-1953 version with the one
piece body. You can just click on "new photos" at the group home page for
the next week, otherwise it's in the "zDon Dellmann's stuff, Blue Line"
album.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
Group: vintageHO Message: 13169 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Latest project
Neat work Don, hard to beat the orange and gray with a maroon band.   Roger Aultman
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:27 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Latest project

 

Uploaded a photo of my latest project, Milwaukee Northern No 5940, the "Rib
Mountain". This is a Blue line, the original 1948-1953 version with the one
piece body. You can just click on "new photos" at the group home page for
the next week, otherwise it's in the "zDon Dellmann's stuff, Blue Line"
album.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

Group: vintageHO Message: 13170 From: wetabor Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Hello

I'm surprised that there has been mention of the Mantua cardboard sides on refrigerator cars in this thread. They weren't Magow and the war was over but these cars may have been produced before the war.

Lets talk about these if anyone is interested.

Wally Tabor
Group: vintageHO Message: 13171 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow

"Ray Marinaccio" raymarinaccio@...   raymarinaccio inquires-

Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:59 pm (PST)

[Attachment(s) from Ray Marinaccio included below] 

Is this the Varney R-5?

No. That is the R-15,  also a very fine model. The R-15 modeled a wood-sided reefer, while the R-5 modeled a riveted steel reefer. 

 In the latter regard, I often have surmised that this model (R-5) did not long survive because the distinctive prototype turned out to be an orphan unlike about any other having having uncommon plated rather than corrugated  ends (like PRR X-29 box cars). The roof was also plated, without any ribs placing these cars even further from the mainstream.

I am dismayed when I hear that these wood/paper cars are being repaired/restored with epoxy and ACC.  These are most inappropriate and very poor cements for these purposes inasmuch as neither cement can be undone or broken down except mechanically, sentencing the car almost certainly to further destruction in any future effort at restoration. 

 Frayed paper sides are best repaired by the water-soluble white glues (I use Microscale Krystal Clear or Pacer Canopy Cement, but thinned Elmer's might do just as well). When wiped clean during the setting up process, the glue also does not leave a glossy shine. 

The white glue is also perfect (superior, in fact) for repairing  wood and wood/paper elements. Spills, squeezes and drips are easily cleaned up with water, and if errors are made, water also serves to undo the joint.

In restoring these and other early similar models, keep in mind that most would have been originally assembled with one of three cements: 1) Casein powdered glue- commonly included in a small envelope in the kit box; 2) mucilage; or 3) "Airplane" tube cements.  The casein and mucilage cements were and are water soluable (and still are!). If gentle prying does not separate the parts of a model (easier with mucilage than with casein), then careful soaking in water will do it.  Usually, combinations of both will be most effective.

Airplane cement (still available by Ambroid), of course is not water soluble, but it is soluable with acetone.  I have done quite a few "re-kit" projects by soaking these models in baths of acetone.  This does require some testing of the printed sides to determine whether they will withstand this type of solvent, and in most instances, careful removal of the sides beforehand is wise (done so with a very thin blunt knife blade, e.g. an Xacto knife whose edge has been blunted like a butter knife). 

5-minute epoxy has little application in our hobby, being only an expedient,  and a very poor brittle cement that tends to crystalize. Good epoxies take some time to set up, are excellent cements, but nothing but mechanical means -with or without high heat- are necessary to undo joints.

Denny

 




Group: vintageHO Message: 13172 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
I tell ya, Denny, there is no way water-soluble glue would have helped these.

Unless you plan on de-skinning the paper from the cardboard (and the paper itself is dinged enough that wouldn't work), once things like cardboard roofs (Megow) are crinkled, you can A) make a new one out of an old cereal box, or B) remove the roof (water-soluble glue has failed) and soak the backside with CA which stiffens it back to original strength.

I remember the first one I did, several years ago.

Mice.

Ate the corners of the paper sides off.

Plus, handling/packing/storage damage.

There was nothing really salvageable.

But, stop the fraying, then I used JB Qucik to "extend" the sides into the areas where there USED to be a side, and, since I used CA on the fray, I could file/sand (and the cardstock filed/sanded like plaster), mix touch-up paint to match, and it worked.

When you get these that are dropped, the upper corner of the roof/side/end smashed in, all the water soluble glue in the world isn't going to fix that.

But, pry one side out at a time, get it flat, work CA in with the tip of an xacto blade, and when you're done, you have to look real close to see where it was smashed.

I am not interested in buying high-priced stuff to begin with.

I end up with stuff that SHOULD have gone to the dump, and fix it.

Dave

> I am dismayed when I hear that these wood/paper cars are being
> repaired/restored with epoxy and ACC. These are most inappropriate
> and very poor cements for these purposes inasmuch as neither cement
> can be undone or broken down except mechanically, sentencing the car
> almost certainly to further destruction in any future effort at
> restoration.
>
> Frayed paper sides are best repaired by the water-soluble white
> glues (I use Microscale Krystal Clear or Pacer Canopy Cement, but
> thinned Elmer's might do just as well). When wiped clean during the
> setting up process, the glue also does not leave a glossy shine.
>
> The white glue is also perfect (superior, in fact) for repairing wood
> and wood/paper elements. Spills, squeezes and drips are easily cleaned
> up with water, and if errors are made, water also serves to undo the
> joint.
>
> In restoring these and other early similar models, keep in mind that
> most would have been originally assembled with one of three cements:
> 1) Casein powdered glue- commonly included in a small envelope in the
> kit box; 2) mucilage; or 3) "Airplane" tube cements. The casein and
> mucilage cements were and are water soluable (and still are!). If
> gentle prying does not separate the parts of a model (easier with
> mucilage than with casein), then careful soaking in water will do it.
> Usually, combinations of both will be most effective.
>
> Airplane cement (still available by Ambroid), of course is not water
> soluble, but it is soluable with acetone. I have done quite a few "re-
> kit" projects by soaking these models in baths of acetone. This does
> require some testing of the printed sides to determine whether they
> will withstand this type of solvent, and in most instances, careful
> removal of the sides beforehand is wise (done so with a very thin
> blunt knife blade, e.g. an Xacto knife whose edge has been blunted
> like a butter knife).
>
> 5-minute epoxy has little application in our hobby, being only an
> expedient, and a very poor brittle cement that tends to crystalize.
> Good epoxies take some time to set up, are excellent cements, but
> nothing but mechanical means -with or without high heat- are necessary
> to undo joints.
>
> Denny
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13173 From: Lester Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
I am glad to see somebody has mentioned Mantua. O ver the last 2 years I have been buying Mantua Reefers Box Cars Hoppers Gondolas Tank Cars when they came on ebay.I have also been buying any unused sides if they appear. I will not use the new sides on the cars. I hyave gotten all the reefers and a lot of new sides. I still need 9 boxcarsplus 9 unused sides. I need two tank cars and one set of sides. I have all the hoppers and gondolas but am looking for one hopper unused side and 2 gondola unused sides. This is my only venture in Ho. I think the display of cars colorful and very attractive. Since I have many new kits I may have the sides reproduced(without embossing)to finish these cars.My first introduction to Mantua was in the WWII years.as an early teenager. If any one should have what I am still looking for I would be glad to hear from them. Les Morris
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "wetabor" <wetabor@...> wrote:
>
> Hello
>
> I'm surprised that there has been mention of the Mantua cardboard sides on refrigerator cars in this thread. They weren't Magow and the war was over but these cars may have been produced before the war.
>
> Lets talk about these if anyone is interested.
>
> Wally Tabor
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13174 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Card-Sided Cars
Thanks Denney,
 I assume the R-5 would have been similar to this style. (the PFE)
 I also have an IC car (not sure of maker)
 Thanks for the restoration tips also.
 I plan to fix these up eventually.

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 10:17 AM



"Ray Marinaccio" raymarinaccio@...   raymarinaccio inquires-

Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:59 pm (PST)

[Attachment(s) from Ray Marinaccio included below] 

Is this the Varney R-5?

No. That is the R-15,  also a very fine model. The R-15 modeled a wood-sided reefer, while the R-5 modeled a riveted steel reefer. 

 In the latter regard, I often have surmised that this model (R-5) did not long survive because the distinctive prototype turned out to be an orphan unlike about any other having having uncommon plated rather than corrugated  ends (like PRR X-29 box cars). The roof was also plated, without any ribs placing these cars even further from the mainstream.

I am dismayed when I hear that these wood/paper cars are being repaired/restored with epoxy and ACC.  These are most inappropriate and very poor cements for these purposes inasmuch as neither cement can be undone or broken down except mechanically, sentencing the car almost certainly to further destruction in any future effort at restoration. 

 Frayed paper sides are best repaired by the water-soluble white glues (I use Microscale Krystal Clear or Pacer Canopy Cement, but thinned Elmer's might do just as well). When wiped clean during the setting up process, the glue also does not leave a glossy shine. 

The white glue is also perfect (superior, in fact) for repairing  wood and wood/paper elements. Spills, squeezes and drips are easily cleaned up with water, and if errors are made, water also serves to undo the joint.

In restoring these and other early similar models, keep in mind that most would have been originally assembled with one of three cements: 1) Casein powdered glue- commonly included in a small envelope in the kit box; 2) mucilage; or 3) "Airplane" tube cements.  The casein and mucilage cements were and are water soluable (and still are!). If gentle prying does not separate the parts of a model (easier with mucilage than with casein), then careful soaking in water will do it.  Usually, combinations of both will be most effective.

Airplane cement (still available by Ambroid), of course is not water soluble, but it is soluable with acetone.  I have done quite a few "re-kit" projects by soaking these models in baths of acetone.  This does require some testing of the printed sides to determine whether they will withstand this type of solvent, and in most instances, careful removal of the sides beforehand is wise (done so with a very thin blunt knife blade, e.g. an Xacto knife whose edge has been blunted like a butter knife). 

5-minute epoxy has little application in our hobby, being only an expedient,  and a very poor brittle cement that tends to crystalize. Good epoxies take some time to set up, are excellent cements, but nothing but mechanical means -with or without high heat- are necessary to undo joints.

Denny

 







  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13175 From: roger Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
This morning after breakfast I was paging through the March 1949 issue of H-O Monthly, on page 26 there is a mention of the above, Central Valley Oil-Electrics. I cannot recall hearing of those before or that CV had made a locomotive. Could this of been a mistake in the magazine
or was there such a locomotive? Roger Aultman
Group: vintageHO Message: 13176 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Interestingly, I found a photo of a Varney R-2 Santa Fe (SFRD) reefer, but it has the SF Map on the right side of the doors.
Mine has no map.
But, if I recall, the road number is the same.
Dave


Attachment(s) from Ray Marinaccio included below]
> >
> > Is this the Varney R-5?
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13177 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Hi Roger A.,(and Jim H.),

Theories and no facts: Although I am far from the most knowledgable, I have not seen any mention of a Central Valley HO Scale oil-electric before, and although Central Valley was in operation then, could the writer have confused the name with the famous Central Locomotive Works who did make a number of interesting locomotive kits in O scale?

And even though Central Locomotive was firmly in the O Scale field, could thay have been contemplating an entry into HO? The reason I ask this is that the articles linked below say that during that early period from 1947, Bob Smith of Central Locomotive worked closely with Lindsey Adams of Adam's and Son, and that Adams did Smith's pattern Work. We know that Adams & Son also produced the castings for a number of HO scale models.

http://users.foxvalley.net/~osn/BobSmith1993.htm

Another possibility is that Bob Lindsay worked closely with George Hook and Harry Weiss of Central Valley in their early days, and that Lindsay soon went on to produce his line of oil-electrics - diesels. Could there have been a misunderstanding on the part of the writer there, too, thinking Lindsay was still working ith them?

More questions than answers, but will watch for any other references to Central Valley and an oil-electric.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "roger" <raul@...> wrote:
>
> This morning after breakfast I was paging through the March 1949 issue of H-O Monthly, on page 26 there is a mention of the above, Central Valley Oil-Electrics. I cannot recall hearing of those before or that CV had made a locomotive. Could this of been a mistake in the magazine
> or was there such a locomotive? Roger Aultman
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13178 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Mantua sides and cars Was: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort
Hi Les M.,

So you are the one buying all those Mantua sides? HehHeh! Actually they seem to be quite popular on eBay; I have many of their tank car wrappers and a few of the others; what attracted me first was one tank car made for a North Jersey company: Mathieu Chemical of Paterson, NJ. Mathieu had a smaller plant that mixed and repackaged houshold cleaners up in the country a few miles away on the NYS&W into the 1980's. I have noticed two different shades of the blue-green tank color on the Mathieu wrappers, which is understandable given the long period they were produced.

Not knowing how scarce they were a couple of years ago, I made some high quality color copies on thin card stock, then totally dissassembled and rebuilt several "junk" Mantua cars into attractive models, using the copied wrappers. The copier I used even gave a shadow to the rivits, so they are quite convincing on the layout. I have enough parts now to build my next, and will use an extra original wrapper for an totally authentic model, though.

As to the reefers, I have a DL&W kit - one of the road names I model and collect and Berkshire Hams sides. I am still looking for their Erie Boxcar sides.

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Lester" <docles1@...> wrote:
>
>
> I am glad to see somebody has mentioned Mantua. O ver the last 2 years I have been buying Mantua Reefers Box Cars Hoppers Gondolas Tank Cars when they came on ebay.I have also been buying any unused sides if they appear. I will not use the new sides on the cars. I hyave gotten all the reefers and a lot of new sides. I still need 9 boxcarsplus 9 unused sides. I need two tank cars and one set of sides. I have all the hoppers and gondolas but am looking for one hopper unused side and 2 gondola unused sides. This is my only venture in Ho. I think the display of cars colorful and very attractive. Since I have many new kits I may have the sides reproduced(without embossing)to finish these cars.My first introduction to Mantua was in the WWII years.as an early teenager. If any one should have what I am still looking for I would be glad to hear from them. Les Morris
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "wetabor" <wetabor@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello
> >
> > I'm surprised that there has been mention of the Mantua cardboard sides on refrigerator cars in this thread. They weren't Magow and the war was over but these cars may have been produced before the war.
> >
> > Lets talk about these if anyone is interested.
> >
> > Wally Tabor
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13179 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
Dave, That Megow QD-26 SP box car is 33135 (I have that kit). Recheck
your number to see if maybe you made a mistake when writing 38135. Ray F.W.
</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13180 From: Larry Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Just to add to this discussion,...
 
Does anyone know what happened to the original embossing dies or artwork for the car sides? Printing has evolved to a much finer degree in recent years and if these could be located an interested party could make a quality product for a reasonable price. As the originals degrade and disappear there is even more impetus to see if this could be accomplished.
 
Anyone out there with information fell free to contact me directly.
 
Larry Miller III


--- On Wed, 2/10/10, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 4:41 PM

W. Jay W's discussion of the wartime HO card-sided models is right-
on.  Although many  (who should have known better) over the years have 
put their noses in the air about the card sides, they should not have 
done so.  As mentioned, some sides were better than others:  Card 
board or card stock could be made of Bristol Board (Strathmore) or 
other very high-rag content archival type of paper, others chose wood-
pulp-backed card stock. The former have survived, and the latter have 
either passed from, or are passing from the scene because of internal 
acidification. Notably in the former category are the Varney sides, 
especially after the foil-era, and the M. Dale Newton sides.  Notably 
in the latter  were the earliest c. 1937 ff. Varney embossed sides, 
most of which are held together today only by molecules holding hands.

In another way, the card sides could and did excel:  Both Varney and 
M. Dale Newton relied on personal broadside photographic recording of 
freight and reefer cars  for their printed car sides. As a result, 
these car sides receive a great deal of respect by prototype freight 
car historians for their prototype accuracy.

Varney reefer R5 of 1937, Milw STEEL URTX 81307  was one of the very 
first embossed side models, and is exceeding rare today, not the least 
because the sides failed. The board was pulp-backed, i.e. like shirt 
cardboard, but had a coated paper front surface which accepted the 
embossing and printing quite well. Some years ago, over several 
evenings I meticulously broke the bond between and separated the 
intact printed coated-paper surface from its rotting pulp backing, 
replacing the failed backing with 0.015" Strathmore paper re-cemented 
with thinned white glue. This resulted in the saving of and 
stabilization of these rare car sides, now once again gracing the 
sides of a restored car body.

Note that what I am describing above is not the separate cardboard 
backing that Varney eventually provided to strengthen the car sides 
(the modeler glued them them together as a sandwich- causing yet other 
long term problems!).

Note than in a recent RMC article on Varney, the author erroneously 
depicted, and clearly misidentified a Varney Milwaukee WOOD reefer 
R-15 as R-5.  They were different models of two different types of 
cars,  and the sides were printed on two different types of paper.   
R-5 did not last past the beginning of WWII, while R-15 continued 
until 1949. The former is a true rare bird.  The latter is relatively 
common.   Both make fine models.

Denny

Denny S.  Anspach MD
Sacramento







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Group: vintageHO Message: 13181 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Varney
Dave, The Varney R-2 ATSF reefer is 16142 (not 16147 as you state). Ray
F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13182 From: George Frey Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
larry try this guy https://www.labellemodels.com/contact_us.phphe bought the original "red ball" line he may have what you need or know where to get them at. I also have a couple of card sided cars so if you do find a source please post it to the site.
thank you
George Frey


From: Larry <mrncartoon@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 2:20:38 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow

 

Just to add to this discussion,. ..
 
Does anyone know what happened to the original embossing dies or artwork for the car sides? Printing has evolved to a much finer degree in recent years and if these could be located an interested party could make a quality product for a reasonable price. As the originals degrade and disappear there is even more impetus to see if this could be accomplished.
 
Anyone out there with information fell free to contact me directly.
 
Larry Miller III


--- On Wed, 2/10/10, Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus. org> wrote:

From: Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus. org>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 4:41 PM

W. Jay W's discussion of the wartime HO card-sided models is right-
on.  Although many  (who should have known better) over the years have 
put their noses in the air about the card sides, they should not have 
done so.  As mentioned, some sides were better than others:  Card 
board or card stock could be made of Bristol Board (Strathmore) or 
other very high-rag content archival type of paper, others chose wood-
pulp-backed card stock. The former have survived, and the latter have 
either passed from, or are passing from the scene because of internal 
acidification. Notably in the former category are the Varney sides, 
especially after the foil-era, and the M. Dale Newton sides.  Notably 
in the latter  were the earliest c. 1937 ff. Varney embossed sides, 
most of which are held together today only by molecules holding hands.

In another way, the card sides could and did excel:  Both Varney and 
M. Dale Newton relied on personal broadside photographic recording of 
freight and reefer cars  for their printed car sides. As a result, 
these car sides receive a great deal of respect by prototype freight 
car historians for their prototype accuracy.

Varney reefer R5 of 1937, Milw STEEL URTX 81307  was one of the very 
first embossed side models, and is exceeding rare today, not the least 
because the sides failed. The board was pulp-backed, i.e. like shirt 
cardboard, but had a coated paper front surface which accepted the 
embossing and printing quite well. Some years ago, over several 
evenings I meticulously broke the bond between and separated the 
intact printed coated-paper surface from its rotting pulp backing, 
replacing the failed backing with 0.015" Strathmore paper re-cemented 
with thinned white glue. This resulted in the saving of and 
stabilization of these rare car sides, now once again gracing the 
sides of a restored car body.

Note that what I am describing above is not the separate cardboard 
backing that Varney eventually provided to strengthen the car sides 
(the modeler glued them them together as a sandwich- causing yet other 
long term problems!).

Note than in a recent RMC article on Varney, the author erroneously 
depicted, and clearly misidentified a Varney Milwaukee WOOD reefer 
R-15 as R-5.  They were different models of two different types of 
cars,  and the sides were printed on two different types of paper.   
R-5 did not last past the beginning of WWII, while R-15 continued 
until 1949. The former is a true rare bird.  The latter is relatively 
common.   Both make fine models.

Denny

Denny S.  Anspach MD
Sacramento







------------ --------- --------- ------

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Group: vintageHO Message: 13183 From: jim heckard Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
   Roger A,  W Jay W,
 
    I just got in and saw your message. Will check a little later on. We were fortunate here in Schuylkill and neighboring Carbon counties to get the highest snowfall totals of ANYBODY in any state that had snow from the storm yesterday. I am dealing with 23"-24" and just getting squared away. A little nap is in the forecast.
 
   Off hand nothing is ringing a bell. I thought that Central Valley only made trucks but never doing any research on them can't be 100 % sure. There are just to many lesser known products to keep track of all. When you say oil fired electrics I understand the oil fired part but is the shape of this "electric" like Walther's Gas Electrics ? While I collect vintage HO big time I'm not well versed on full size engines.
 
  Jay mentions the possibility of the wrong name. However there were a number of items from many HO companies that were advertised and even a couple pre production samples brought to big train shows, announced as going into production and nothing happens. ( I remember once that Lindberg did this and it never showed up ).
 
    Not to change the subject but I am searching for information on a little known , hard to find ( so far)  BB switcher etched copper body, less power,by Super Scale. It was advertised but I have never found one or seen paperwork for it.
 
    So while sticking to my motto "Never Say Never" I have to wonder if it was this type of case where it was announced, maybe even by Central Valley, and nothing further.
 
    Right now, like Jay, I am putting out "ifs and maybes". NO Facts. However the mention made of Adams & Son with Central Locomotive Works even if in O gauge is both intriguing and more information .This A&S seems to have many tentacles pertaining to many early production items.
 
   Sorry nothing definite but I will check further.     Jay   Guess who one guy is I will pester for possible answer.
 
                                                              Jim H
 
     
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:07 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?

 

Hi Roger A.,(and Jim H.),

Theories and no facts: Although I am far from the most knowledgable, I have not seen any mention of a Central Valley HO Scale oil-electric before, and although Central Valley was in operation then, could the writer have confused the name with the famous Central Locomotive Works who did make a number of interesting locomotive kits in O scale?

And even though Central Locomotive was firmly in the O Scale field, could thay have been contemplating an entry into HO? The reason I ask this is that the articles linked below say that during that early period from 1947, Bob Smith of Central Locomotive worked closely with Lindsey Adams of Adam's and Son, and that Adams did Smith's pattern Work. We know that Adams & Son also produced the castings for a number of HO scale models.

http://users. foxvalley. net/~osn/ BobSmith1993. htm

Another possibility is that Bob Lindsay worked closely with George Hook and Harry Weiss of Central Valley in their early days, and that Lindsay soon went on to produce his line of oil-electrics - diesels. Could there have been a misunderstanding on the part of the writer there, too, thinking Lindsay was still working ith them?

More questions than answers, but will watch for any other references to Central Valley and an oil-electric.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "roger" <raul@...> wrote:
>
> This morning after breakfast I was paging through the March 1949 issue of H-O Monthly, on page 26 there is a mention of the above, Central Valley Oil-Electrics. I cannot recall hearing of those before or that CV had made a locomotive. Could this of been a mistake in the magazine
> or was there such a locomotive? Roger Aultman
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13184 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Dave, It looks like we'll have to work on your ATSF 16147 reefer to try to
determine what make it is. The Varney (16142) ATSF -- S.F.R.D. reefer has
the route map on one side (and Santa Fe/all the way) and has The/Scout/for
ECONOMY/TRAVEL/West on the other side. They could also be Champ sides, as
many modelers bought separate sides to use on their kits to change their
appearance. In this way, they could have several car numbers of the same road,
including the original kit sides. Champ made car sides before going into
making decals. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13185 From: jim heckard Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: : Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
  W Jay W, Roger A,
 
  Just to clarify the type of Super Scale switcher I am looking for. It is not their two yard switcher types but a light road switcher something along the line of a Geep. It is described as being "the three power switcher occasionally employed by the NYC for passenger runs" This is not to get away from Roger A's original topic but to clarify exactly what I am looking for by Super Scale and talked about in my previous post.
 
                                                    Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?

   Roger A,  W Jay W,
 
    I just got in and saw your message. Will check a little later on. We were fortunate here in Schuylkill and neighboring Carbon counties to get the highest snowfall totals of ANYBODY in any state that had snow from the storm yesterday. I am dealing with 23"-24" and just getting squared away. A little nap is in the forecast.
 
   Off hand nothing is ringing a bell. I thought that Central Valley only made trucks but never doing any research on them can't be 100 % sure. There are just to many lesser known products to keep track of all. When you say oil fired electrics I understand the oil fired part but is the shape of this "electric" like Walther's Gas Electrics ? While I collect vintage HO big time I'm not well versed on full size engines.
 
  Jay mentions the possibility of the wrong name. However there were a number of items from many HO companies that were advertised and even a couple pre production samples brought to big train shows, announced as going into production and nothing happens. ( I remember once that Lindberg did this and it never showed up ).
 
    Not to change the subject but I am searching for information on a little known , hard to find ( so far)  BB switcher etched copper body, less power,by Super Scale. It was advertised but I have never found one or seen paperwork for it.
 
    So while sticking to my motto "Never Say Never" I have to wonder if it was this type of case where it was announced, maybe even by Central Valley, and nothing further.
 
    Right now, like Jay, I am putting out "ifs and maybes". NO Facts. However the mention made of Adams & Son with Central Locomotive Works even if in O gauge is both intriguing and more information .This A&S seems to have many tentacles pertaining to many early production items.
 
   Sorry nothing definite but I will check further.     Jay   Guess who one guy is I will pester for possible answer.
 
                                                              Jim H
 
     
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:07 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?

 

Hi Roger A.,(and Jim H.),

Theories and no facts: Although I am far from the most knowledgable, I have not seen any mention of a Central Valley HO Scale oil-electric before, and although Central Valley was in operation then, could the writer have confused the name with the famous Central Locomotive Works who did make a number of interesting locomotive kits in O scale?

And even though Central Locomotive was firmly in the O Scale field, could thay have been contemplating an entry into HO? The reason I ask this is that the articles linked below say that during that early period from 1947, Bob Smith of Central Locomotive worked closely with Lindsey Adams of Adam's and Son, and that Adams did Smith's pattern Work. We know that Adams & Son also produced the castings for a number of HO scale models.

http://users. foxvalley. net/~osn/ BobSmith1993. htm

Another possibility is that Bob Lindsay worked closely with George Hook and Harry Weiss of Central Valley in their early days, and that Lindsay soon went on to produce his line of oil-electrics - diesels. Could there have been a misunderstanding on the part of the writer there, too, thinking Lindsay was still working ith them?

More questions than answers, but will watch for any other references to Central Valley and an oil-electric.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "roger" <raul@...> wrote:
>
> This morning after breakfast I was paging through the March 1949 issue of H-O Monthly, on page 26 there is a mention of the above, Central Valley Oil-Electrics. I cannot recall hearing of those before or that CV had made a locomotive. Could this of been a mistake in the magazine
> or was there such a locomotive? Roger Aultman
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13186 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
I'll go double-check.
It's out in the shop with glue drying.

My limited experience shows early model builders seemed to often mix parts (kit-bash) to come up with what they wanted.

This one has Varney end beams, early Varney solid trucks (well, one and a half trucks, anyway), what appears to be Varney cast one-pice (X4) hatches and platforms, and has brass roof ribs.

So, who knows!

On the Megow, the lettering is bad, that was the best I could do at the time, I'll look closer.

What body color is the Megow SP Boxcar?
Dave


> Dave, It looks like we'll have to work on your ATSF 16147 reefer to try to
> determine what make it is. The Varney (16142) ATSF -- S.F.R.D. reefer has
> the route map on one side (and Santa Fe/all the way) and has The/Scout/for
> ECONOMY/TRAVEL/West on the other side. They could also be Champ sides, as
> many modelers bought separate sides to use on their kits to change their
> appearance. In this way, they could have several car numbers of the same road,
> including the original kit sides. Champ made car sides before going into
> making decals. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13187 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
16147, both sides, no map either side.

So, back to square one.

When I saw the photo, looked like a 16147, could very well have been a 16142.

So, now, what's the number on the side of a Megow ATSF Reefer?

Dave




> Dave, It looks like we'll have to work on your ATSF 16147 reefer to try to
> determine what make it is. The Varney (16142) ATSF -- S.F.R.D. reefer has
> the route map on one side (and Santa Fe/all the way) and has The/Scout/for
> ECONOMY/TRAVEL/West on the other side. They could also be Champ sides, as
> many modelers bought separate sides to use on their kits to change their
> appearance. In this way, they could have several car numbers of the same road,
> including the original kit sides. Champ made car sides before going into
> making decals. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13188 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
The Q-14 Megow SF Reefer looks just like mine, except the number is totally wrong.
Looks like the Megow is 15532.
http://hoseeker.net/megow/megowcatalog1940pg04.jpg
Dave


>
> 16147, both sides, no map either side.
>
> So, back to square one.
>
> When I saw the photo, looked like a 16147, could very well have been a 16142.
>
> So, now, what's the number on the side of a Megow ATSF Reefer?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> > Dave, It looks like we'll have to work on your ATSF 16147 reefer to try to
> > determine what make it is. The Varney (16142) ATSF -- S.F.R.D. reefer has
> > the route map on one side (and Santa Fe/all the way) and has The/Scout/for
> > ECONOMY/TRAVEL/West on the other side. They could also be Champ sides, as
> > many modelers bought separate sides to use on their kits to change their
> > appearance. In this way, they could have several car numbers of the same road,
> > including the original kit sides. Champ made car sides before going into
> > making decals. Ray F.W.</HTML>
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13189 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
I dont know anything about a Central Valley Oil-Electric, but CV used to make a line of wooden freight car kits.  The cars used a body bolster that utilised a dress snap as a kingpin, instead of a screw.  Their trucks were designed to hold the other half of the snap.
Back in the early days, oil-electric was the term used for a diesel-electric.
Bill Donahue
Group: vintageHO Message: 13190 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Megow QD-26 SP box car is box car red. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13191 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
I don't have the Megow ATSF reefer, so can't tell you the road number. Ray
F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13192 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
That may not mean anything either. There's a photo in my MDC album of a
diecast low side EJ&E Gondola carrying number 31507 on one side and 30448 on
the other. Factory error in packing the kit parts or did the modeler mix
the parts of two kits? We'll never know.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 5:03 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow


> 16147, both sides, no map either side.
>
> So, back to square one.
>
> When I saw the photo, looked like a 16147, could very well have been a
> 16142.
>
> So, now, what's the number on the side of a Megow ATSF Reefer?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>> Dave, It looks like we'll have to work on your ATSF 16147 reefer to try
>> to
>> determine what make it is. The Varney (16142) ATSF -- S.F.R.D. reefer
>> has
>> the route map on one side (and Santa Fe/all the way) and has
>> The/Scout/for
>> ECONOMY/TRAVEL/West on the other side. They could also be Champ sides,
>> as
>> many modelers bought separate sides to use on their kits to change their
>> appearance. In this way, they could have several car numbers of the same
>> road,
>> including the original kit sides. Champ made car sides before going into
>> making decals. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13193 From: Bigdaddy Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: I am looking for an Athearn Black Widow Shell, F7A.
I am looking for an Athearn Black Widow Shell, F7A,
anyone have one?

Thanks,
RJ
Group: vintageHO Message: 13194 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
I dont know anything about a Central Valley Oil-Electric, but CV used to make a line of wooden freight car kits.  The cars used a body bolster that utilised a dress snap as a kingpin, instead of a screw.  Their trucks were designed to hold the other half of the snap.
Back in the early days, oil-electric was the term used for a diesel-electric.
Bill Donahue



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Group: vintageHO Message: 13195 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Paper Side-Printing
Please don't bother LaBelle about paper side printing plates.

He needs the time to get Red Ball up and running again.

He does NOT HAVE the plates. They were not included in the sale of Red Ball to LaBelle.

He DOES have rights to the side art for some 200-300 Specoalty cars, Reefers and Boxcars. They are a valuable part of the Red Ball line. This would be akin to pirating castings which has frequently been discussed here.

Printing reproductions would be an intrusion on his property rights.

The printing plates are being prepared as Red Ball keepsakes. Many folks have previously reserved specific items. Multicolor car sides involved multiple plates. LaBelle's property rights are being protected by the manner in which the plates will be offered. Appropriate opportunities for future purchase of these menmorabelia will occur in the future. Not now. No info provided now, please.

Most Red Ball embossing and some printing plates experienced similar difficulties as many Zamak loco castings in their 50+ year existence. Anyone TRYING to use the surviving tools would first have to become very proficient at opperation of letterpress printing equipment. It's not an "easy button pusher."

Merle Rice
Manufacturer of Red Ball 1975-2009
Group: vintageHO Message: 13196 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Varney
Dave and all,
 
In a 1943 Polk's Hobby Shop catalog, I find an all steel reefer SFRD with number 37243 and a double sheath wood reefer SFRD with number 16019.
 
Larry

Group: vintageHO Message: 13197 From: Larry Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Side-Printing
Mr. Rice:
 
Please don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting pirating and I am not encouraging it in any way. If LaBelle has the artwork that answers the bulk of my question and your understanding of the dies sheds light as well. Most embossing dies today are made of copper or brass with a fibergalss counter as the cheaper and easier to produce zinc based dies did not hold up over time. I've had experience with all of them and you are also correct about the letterpress not being a simple push the button operation. It is a skilled craft and few would be able to attempt the process without a full understanding of the equipment and tooling involved.
 
My life-long work experience is in printing, which is why I expressed an interest in the dies and artwork. I have always wondered why more of the kits are not being produced with the printed card using embossing and die cutting to give them dimension. The cost of the initial tooling, the actual production and assembly of the kits would certainly be much less than the cast resin, laser cut and production plastic units that are available without sacrificing detail or viewing appeal. I would like nothing more than to encourage new products using the process than to copy something that has already been done or belongs to someone else.
 
All of that being said, if anyone would be interested in new printed card models and would like to produce some of their own, I would encourge them to look into it as a viable, if not less costly alternative to the other kits mentioned.
 
Larry Miller III

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:

From: Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 7:05 PM

Please don't bother LaBelle about paper side printing plates.

He needs the time to get Red Ball up and running again.

He does NOT HAVE the plates. They were not included in the sale of Red Ball to LaBelle.

He DOES have rights to the side art for some 200-300 Specoalty cars, Reefers and Boxcars. They are a valuable part of the Red Ball line. This would be akin to pirating castings which has frequently been discussed here. 

Printing reproductions would be an intrusion on his property rights.

The printing plates are being prepared as Red Ball keepsakes. Many folks have previously reserved specific items. Multicolor car sides involved multiple plates. LaBelle's property rights are being protected by the manner in which the plates will be offered. Appropriate opportunities for future purchase of these menmorabelia will occur in the future. Not now. No info provided now, please.

Most Red Ball embossing and some printing plates experienced similar difficulties as many Zamak loco castings in their 50+ year existence. Anyone TRYING to use the surviving tools would first have to become very proficient at opperation of letterpress printing equipment. It's not an "easy button pusher."

Merle Rice
Manufacturer of Red Ball 1975-2009



------------------------------------

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<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO Message: 13198 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Varney 2nd version reefer?
Been doing some research on this SFRD reefer.
Sent a photo off.

Seems this is a second version Varney, third version had the map (and probably the different number).

Photos posted under "Varney Reefer?".

Take a look and see what you think.

The hatches are Varney, end beams (not on yet) are Varney, 2nd version (small axle) trucks, 2nd version Varney brass roof ribs (not 1st version cast).

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13199 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Cardstock and wood caboose
Photos in the album "Cardstock and wood caboose".

Wood floor (not recessed for caboose steps), wood roof, wood end plates (inside).
Paper door glued on with a 1/8" recess.
The "Denver & Rio Grande Western" letterboard is glued on.
Window cutouts not lined up with outline.
Cupola (missing) was on the wrong end of the car.

I think I am going to strip off the bits and scrap it unless somebody wants it.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13200 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Side-Printing
I mentioned before that I used to create paper and wood car kits, much in the style of prewar cars.

If I can find the disks that have the drawings, is there any interest from the group of maybe me offering them?

I am still proficent in CAD, to the extent of, for the past six weeks, taught a CAD class at a local youth program.

Not really 'vintage', but in the vein of vintage style modeling.

Off the top of my head, here is a short list of what I used to offer:

40' AAR boxcar (Many roads!)

USRA gondola

Pennsy X29 boxcar

DM&IR caboose (Just like the one Walthers now offers in plastic)

40' URTX reefer (Milwaukee style, but also for Mid-States Packing, Oscar Meyer, and a few others)

ATSF Steelside caboose

ICC Type 103 tankcar (All sorts of private owners!)

Some different woodside boxcars, including a USRA car, all from photos I took at the Mid-Continent Railway museum)

ATSF SK-Z stockcar

ATSF SK-T Stockcar

For engine bodies (Meant mostly in the same style as a Stombecker display engine, and even my cars came with display trucks too!):

ALCO S-2 (Phase specific to my many roadnames!)

GP-7 (many roads and road specific details!)

GP-18

GP-35

GP-40

SD-9

RS-1

USRA 0-6-0 steam switcher

There are others I don't remember much about too, plenty of cars I am sure are forgotten. The collection of CAD drawings took up a few CDs. But then, I also made HO scale structures too.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Larry <mrncartoon@...> wrote:

From: Larry <mrncartoon@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 7:48 PM

 

Mr. Rice:
 
Please don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting pirating and I am not encouraging it in any way. If LaBelle has the artwork that answers the bulk of my question and your understanding of the dies sheds light as well. Most embossing dies today are made of copper or brass with a fibergalss counter as the cheaper and easier to produce zinc based dies did not hold up over time. I've had experience with all of them and you are also correct about the letterpress not being a simple push the button operation. It is a skilled craft and few would be able to attempt the process without a full understanding of the equipment and tooling involved.
 
My life-long work experience is in printing, which is why I expressed an interest in the dies and artwork. I have always wondered why more of the kits are not being produced with the printed card using embossing and die cutting to give them dimension. The cost of the initial tooling, the actual production and assembly of the kits would certainly be much less than the cast resin, laser cut and production plastic units that are available without sacrificing detail or viewing appeal. I would like nothing more than to encourage new products using the process than to copy something that has already been done or belongs to someone else.
 
All of that being said, if anyone would be interested in new printed card models and would like to produce some of their own, I would encourge them to look into it as a viable, if not less costly alternative to the other kits mentioned.
 
Larry Miller III

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 7:05 PM

Please don't bother LaBelle about paper side printing plates.

He needs the time to get Red Ball up and running again.

He does NOT HAVE the plates. They were not included in the sale of Red Ball to LaBelle.

He DOES have rights to the side art for some 200-300 Specoalty cars, Reefers and Boxcars. They are a valuable part of the Red Ball line. This would be akin to pirating castings which has frequently been discussed here. 

Printing reproductions would be an intrusion on his property rights.

The printing plates are being prepared as Red Ball keepsakes. Many folks have previously reserved specific items. Multicolor car sides involved multiple plates. LaBelle's property rights are being protected by the manner in which the plates will be offered. Appropriate opportunities for future purchase of these menmorabelia will occur in the future. Not now. No info provided now, please.

Most Red Ball embossing and some printing plates experienced similar difficulties as many Zamak loco castings in their 50+ year existence. Anyone TRYING to use the surviving tools would first have to become very proficient at opperation of letterpress printing equipment. It's not an "easy button pusher."

Merle Rice
Manufacturer of Red Ball 1975-2009



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Group: vintageHO Message: 13201 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Good luck

Years ago I bought one of the random printing segments of one of the
Red Ball car sides. That tipped me off to the originals being sold
throughout the local swap meets.

However, I can vouch that the computer hobby tools we have can
duplicate from the originals. Even the embossed car sides can be
reliably duplicated with todays scrap booking cnc-cutters.

A bit of scanning, some adjustment of the lofting of the embossment in
software and you can run singles on a $300-$500 cnc-cutter. You can
run the same files as a die in a cnc-router or a cnc-mill and stamp
the sides from that.

If you feel really frugal, you can make front and back press dies from
a modest amount of casting polyurethane like Alumilite. Although you
will have to resist-treat the heck out of the original sides.

The more common flat and printed sides can be replicated with a decent
computer photo-printer.

Tie that in with the embossing options of the scrap-booking tools and
you'll have printed and embossed car sides.

Give me a few weeks and I'll be proving this.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 11, 2010, at 4:20 PM, Larry wrote:

>
>
> Just to add to this discussion,...
>
> Does anyone know what happened to the original embossing dies or
> artwork for the car sides? Printing has evolved to a much finer
> degree in recent years and if these could be located an interested
> party could make a quality product for a reasonable price. As the
> originals degrade and disappear there is even more impetus to see if
> this could be accomplished.
>
> Anyone out there with information fell free to contact me directly.
>
> Larry Miller III
> mrncartoon@...
>
>
> --- On Wed, 2/10/10, Denny Anspach wrote:
>
>
> W. Jay W's discussion of the wartime HO card-sided models is right-
> on. Although many (who should have known better) over the years have
> put their noses in the air about the card sides, they should not have
> done so. As mentioned, some sides were better than others: Card
> board or card stock could be made of Bristol Board (Strathmore) or
> other very high-rag content archival type of paper, others chose wood-
> pulp-backed card stock. The former have survived, and the latter have
> either passed from, or are passing from the scene because of internal
> acidification. Notably in the former category are the Varney sides,
> especially after the foil-era, and the M. Dale Newton sides. Notably
> in the latter were the earliest c. 1937 ff. Varney embossed sides,
> most of which are held together today only by molecules holding hands.
>
> In another way, the card sides could and did excel: Both Varney and
> M. Dale Newton relied on personal broadside photographic recording of
> freight and reefer cars for their printed car sides.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13202 From: wetabor Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
H4llo

I made a mistake on my first post. I meant to say that I was surprised that there had been no mention of Mantua cardboard car sides or tank car wrappers but it doesn't matter now. Thanks for your posting.

Could we get together and make a list of the Mantua refrigerator car sides. I would like to know which and how many.

Wally Tabor
Group: vintageHO Message: 13203 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Cardstock and wood caboose
Just looked at your caboose and Santa Fe Reefer.

Try A-C Models for research. I have an A-C models 50' PFE reefer that is done very similar to that Santa Fe Reefer (Despite the length difference!).

Caboose... No clue.

-Steve Neubaum


--- On Thu, 2/11/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Cardstock and wood caboose
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 8:01 PM

 

Photos in the album "Cardstock and wood caboose".

Wood floor (not recessed for caboose steps), wood roof, wood end plates (inside).
Paper door glued on with a 1/8" recess.
The "Denver & Rio Grande Western" letterboard is glued on.
Window cutouts not lined up with outline.
Cupola (missing) was on the wrong end of the car.

I think I am going to strip off the bits and scrap it unless somebody wants it.

Dave

Group: vintageHO Message: 13204 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
I now see from further reading that the originals may well return.

I sure hope so.........

As I note, more can also be made of cars that were never produced.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:23 PM, Mike Bauers wrote:

> Good luck
>
> Years ago I bought one of the random printing segments of one of the
> Red Ball car sides. That tipped me off to the originals being sold
> throughout the local swap meets.
>
> However, I can vouch that the computer hobby tools we have can
> duplicate from the originals. Even the embossed car sides can be
> reliably duplicated with todays scrap booking cnc-cutters.
>
> A bit of scanning, some adjustment of the lofting of the embossment in
> software and you can run singles on a $300-$500 cnc-cutter. You can
> run the same files as a die in a cnc-router or a cnc-mill and stamp
> the sides from that.
>
> If you feel really frugal, you can make front and back press dies from
> a modest amount of casting polyurethane like Alumilite. Although you
> will have to resist-treat the heck out of the original sides.
>
> The more common flat and printed sides can be replicated with a decent
> computer photo-printer.
>
> Tie that in with the embossing options of the scrap-booking tools and
> you'll have printed and embossed car sides.
>
> Give me a few weeks and I'll be proving this.
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi
>
> On Feb 11, 2010, at 4:20 PM, Larry wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Just to add to this discussion,...
>>
>> Does anyone know what happened to the original embossing dies or
>> artwork for the car sides? Printing has evolved to a much finer
>> degree in recent years and if these could be located an interested
>> party could make a quality product for a reasonable price. As the
>> originals degrade and disappear there is even more impetus to see if
>> this could be accomplished........
Group: vintageHO Message: 13205 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Cardstock and wood caboose
Found a 1941 catalog page from A-C models on hoseeker:
http://www.hoseeker.net/ac/acmodels3catalog1941pg07.jpg

Ladders sure look like yours, and I have an A-C reefer I mentioned, that has the same hatches.

But then, the appear to offer parts seperate sale too.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:

From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Cardstock and wood caboose
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 8:37 PM

 

Just looked at your caboose and Santa Fe Reefer.

Try A-C Models for research. I have an A-C models 50' PFE reefer that is done very similar to that Santa Fe Reefer (Despite the length difference!) .

Caboose... No clue.

-Steve Neubaum


--- On Thu, 2/11/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com> wrote:

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Cardstock and wood caboose
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 8:01 PM

 

Photos in the album "Cardstock and wood caboose".

Wood floor (not recessed for caboose steps), wood roof, wood end plates (inside).
Paper door glued on with a 1/8" recess.
The "Denver & Rio Grande Western" letterboard is glued on.
Window cutouts not lined up with outline.
Cupola (missing) was on the wrong end of the car.

I think I am going to strip off the bits and scrap it unless somebody wants it.

Dave

Group: vintageHO Message: 13206 From: George Frey Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Side-Printing
f you can do it legaly i would be intersted
George Frey


From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 6:12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing

 

I mentioned before that I used to create paper and wood car kits, much in the style of prewar cars.

If I can find the disks that have the drawings, is there any interest from the group of maybe me offering them?

I am still proficent in CAD, to the extent of, for the past six weeks, taught a CAD class at a local youth program.

Not really 'vintage', but in the vein of vintage style modeling.

Off the top of my head, here is a short list of what I used to offer:

40' AAR boxcar (Many roads!)

USRA gondola

Pennsy X29 boxcar

DM&IR caboose (Just like the one Walthers now offers in plastic)

40' URTX reefer (Milwaukee style, but also for Mid-States Packing, Oscar Meyer, and a few others)

ATSF Steelside caboose

ICC Type 103 tankcar (All sorts of private owners!)

Some different woodside boxcars, including a USRA car, all from photos I took at the Mid-Continent Railway museum)

ATSF SK-Z stockcar

ATSF SK-T Stockcar

For engine bodies (Meant mostly in the same style as a Stombecker display engine, and even my cars came with display trucks too!):

ALCO S-2 (Phase specific to my many roadnames!)

GP-7 (many roads and road specific details!)

GP-18

GP-35

GP-40

SD-9

RS-1

USRA 0-6-0 steam switcher

There are others I don't remember much about too, plenty of cars I am sure are forgotten. The collection of CAD drawings took up a few CDs. But then, I also made HO scale structures too.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Larry <mrncartoon@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Larry <mrncartoon@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 7:48 PM

 

Mr. Rice:
 
Please don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting pirating and I am not encouraging it in any way. If LaBelle has the artwork that answers the bulk of my question and your understanding of the dies sheds light as well. Most embossing dies today are made of copper or brass with a fibergalss counter as the cheaper and easier to produce zinc based dies did not hold up over time. I've had experience with all of them and you are also correct about the letterpress not being a simple push the button operation. It is a skilled craft and few would be able to attempt the process without a full understanding of the equipment and tooling involved.
 
My life-long work experience is in printing, which is why I expressed an interest in the dies and artwork. I have always wondered why more of the kits are not being produced with the printed card using embossing and die cutting to give them dimension. The cost of the initial tooling, the actual production and assembly of the kits would certainly be much less than the cast resin, laser cut and production plastic units that are available without sacrificing detail or viewing appeal. I would like nothing more than to encourage new products using the process than to copy something that has already been done or belongs to someone else.
 
All of that being said, if anyone would be interested in new printed card models and would like to produce some of their own, I would encourge them to look into it as a viable, if not less costly alternative to the other kits mentioned.
 
Larry Miller III

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 7:05 PM

Please don't bother LaBelle about paper side printing plates.

He needs the time to get Red Ball up and running again.

He does NOT HAVE the plates. They were not included in the sale of Red Ball to LaBelle.

He DOES have rights to the side art for some 200-300 Specoalty cars, Reefers and Boxcars. They are a valuable part of the Red Ball line. This would be akin to pirating castings which has frequently been discussed here. 

Printing reproductions would be an intrusion on his property rights.

The printing plates are being prepared as Red Ball keepsakes. Many folks have previously reserved specific items. Multicolor car sides involved multiple plates. LaBelle's property rights are being protected by the manner in which the plates will be offered. Appropriate opportunities for future purchase of these menmorabelia will occur in the future. Not now. No info provided now, please.

Most Red Ball embossing and some printing plates experienced similar difficulties as many Zamak loco castings in their 50+ year existence. Anyone TRYING to use the surviving tools would first have to become very proficient at opperation of letterpress printing equipment. It's not an "easy button pusher."

Merle Rice
Manufacturer of Red Ball 1975-2009



------------ --------- --------- ------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ join
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Group: vintageHO Message: 13207 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Cardstock and wood caboose
The only ATSF reefers in wood are Mantua, Silver Streak, and Varney, according to the information pages on HOSeeker.
What are "processed hinges and hardware"?

Boy, is this Megow SP Boxcar a pile of......

The brass ends are nailed on, prting the nails out, soldering up the holes, cleaning paint.

The super-glue sure works. I can file down the damaged corners like plaster, smoothing them for paint.

Some moron cut out one of the door openings....1/8" wider than the door itself....painted the "hole" black and glued the door back half-open.

Got some hard cardstock and filled the hole so I can get the door back on right.

It'll roll again....someday.

>
> Found a 1941 catalog page from A-C models on hoseeker:
> http://www.hoseeker.net/ac/acmodels3catalog1941pg07.jpg
>
> Ladders sure look like yours, and I have an A-C reefer I mentioned, that has the same hatches.
>
> But then, the appear to offer parts seperate sale too.
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>

>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13208 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Side-Printing
Yes, I can legally do it, considering the drawings are my works.

Now, in the event I cannot find the original disks or the disks are damaged beyond use, I will try to draw some new kits. Back when I was younger, I could draw a kit in six hours working time. Which was part of a Saturday usually.

Now I am an adult, and own my own business which takes a lot of my time. Will do what I can, as I would use the drawings for my own cars too.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, George Frey <orangetrainman33@...> wrote:

From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 9:25 PM

 

f you can do it legaly i would be intersted
George Frey


From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 6:12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing

 

I mentioned before that I used to create paper and wood car kits, much in the style of prewar cars.

If I can find the disks that have the drawings, is there any interest from the group of maybe me offering them?

I am still proficent in CAD, to the extent of, for the past six weeks, taught a CAD class at a local youth program.

Not really 'vintage', but in the vein of vintage style modeling.

Off the top of my head, here is a short list of what I used to offer:

40' AAR boxcar (Many roads!)

USRA gondola

Pennsy X29 boxcar

DM&IR caboose (Just like the one Walthers now offers in plastic)

40' URTX reefer (Milwaukee style, but also for Mid-States Packing, Oscar Meyer, and a few others)

ATSF Steelside caboose

ICC Type 103 tankcar (All sorts of private owners!)

Some different woodside boxcars, including a USRA car, all from photos I took at the Mid-Continent Railway museum)

ATSF SK-Z stockcar

ATSF SK-T Stockcar

For engine bodies (Meant mostly in the same style as a Stombecker display engine, and even my cars came with display trucks too!):

ALCO S-2 (Phase specific to my many roadnames!)

GP-7 (many roads and road specific details!)

GP-18

GP-35

GP-40

SD-9

RS-1

USRA 0-6-0 steam switcher

There are others I don't remember much about too, plenty of cars I am sure are forgotten. The collection of CAD drawings took up a few CDs. But then, I also made HO scale structures too.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Larry <mrncartoon@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Larry <mrncartoon@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 7:48 PM

 

Mr. Rice:
 
Please don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting pirating and I am not encouraging it in any way. If LaBelle has the artwork that answers the bulk of my question and your understanding of the dies sheds light as well. Most embossing dies today are made of copper or brass with a fibergalss counter as the cheaper and easier to produce zinc based dies did not hold up over time. I've had experience with all of them and you are also correct about the letterpress not being a simple push the button operation. It is a skilled craft and few would be able to attempt the process without a full understanding of the equipment and tooling involved.
 
My life-long work experience is in printing, which is why I expressed an interest in the dies and artwork. I have always wondered why more of the kits are not being produced with the printed card using embossing and die cutting to give them dimension. The cost of the initial tooling, the actual production and assembly of the kits would certainly be much less than the cast resin, laser cut and production plastic units that are available without sacrificing detail or viewing appeal. I would like nothing more than to encourage new products using the process than to copy something that has already been done or belongs to someone else.
 
All of that being said, if anyone would be interested in new printed card models and would like to produce some of their own, I would encourge them to look into it as a viable, if not less costly alternative to the other kits mentioned.
 
Larry Miller III

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 7:05 PM

Please don't bother LaBelle about paper side printing plates.

He needs the time to get Red Ball up and running again.

He does NOT HAVE the plates. They were not included in the sale of Red Ball to LaBelle.

He DOES have rights to the side art for some 200-300 Specoalty cars, Reefers and Boxcars. They are a valuable part of the Red Ball line. This would be akin to pirating castings which has frequently been discussed here. 

Printing reproductions would be an intrusion on his property rights.

The printing plates are being prepared as Red Ball keepsakes. Many folks have previously reserved specific items. Multicolor car sides involved multiple plates. LaBelle's property rights are being protected by the manner in which the plates will be offered. Appropriate opportunities for future purchase of these menmorabelia will occur in the future. Not now. No info provided now, please.

Most Red Ball embossing and some printing plates experienced similar difficulties as many Zamak loco castings in their 50+ year existence. Anyone TRYING to use the surviving tools would first have to become very proficient at opperation of letterpress printing equipment. It's not an "easy button pusher."

Merle Rice
Manufacturer of Red Ball 1975-2009



------------ --------- --------- ------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/ join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    vintageHO-digest@ yahoogroups. com
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Group: vintageHO Message: 13209 From: George Frey Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Side-Printing
cool would defenatly be intersted
thanks
George Frey


From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 7:50:22 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing

 

Yes, I can legally do it, considering the drawings are my works.

Now, in the event I cannot find the original disks or the disks are damaged beyond use, I will try to draw some new kits. Back when I was younger, I could draw a kit in six hours working time. Which was part of a Saturday usually.

Now I am an adult, and own my own business which takes a lot of my time. Will do what I can, as I would use the drawings for my own cars too.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, George Frey <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 9:25 PM

 

f you can do it legaly i would be intersted
George Frey


From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 6:12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing

 

I mentioned before that I used to create paper and wood car kits, much in the style of prewar cars.

If I can find the disks that have the drawings, is there any interest from the group of maybe me offering them?

I am still proficent in CAD, to the extent of, for the past six weeks, taught a CAD class at a local youth program.

Not really 'vintage', but in the vein of vintage style modeling.

Off the top of my head, here is a short list of what I used to offer:

40' AAR boxcar (Many roads!)

USRA gondola

Pennsy X29 boxcar

DM&IR caboose (Just like the one Walthers now offers in plastic)

40' URTX reefer (Milwaukee style, but also for Mid-States Packing, Oscar Meyer, and a few others)

ATSF Steelside caboose

ICC Type 103 tankcar (All sorts of private owners!)

Some different woodside boxcars, including a USRA car, all from photos I took at the Mid-Continent Railway museum)

ATSF SK-Z stockcar

ATSF SK-T Stockcar

For engine bodies (Meant mostly in the same style as a Stombecker display engine, and even my cars came with display trucks too!):

ALCO S-2 (Phase specific to my many roadnames!)

GP-7 (many roads and road specific details!)

GP-18

GP-35

GP-40

SD-9

RS-1

USRA 0-6-0 steam switcher

There are others I don't remember much about too, plenty of cars I am sure are forgotten. The collection of CAD drawings took up a few CDs. But then, I also made HO scale structures too.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Larry <mrncartoon@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Larry <mrncartoon@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 7:48 PM

 

Mr. Rice:
 
Please don't misunderstand, I am not suggesting pirating and I am not encouraging it in any way. If LaBelle has the artwork that answers the bulk of my question and your understanding of the dies sheds light as well. Most embossing dies today are made of copper or brass with a fibergalss counter as the cheaper and easier to produce zinc based dies did not hold up over time. I've had experience with all of them and you are also correct about the letterpress not being a simple push the button operation. It is a skilled craft and few would be able to attempt the process without a full understanding of the equipment and tooling involved.
 
My life-long work experience is in printing, which is why I expressed an interest in the dies and artwork. I have always wondered why more of the kits are not being produced with the printed card using embossing and die cutting to give them dimension. The cost of the initial tooling, the actual production and assembly of the kits would certainly be much less than the cast resin, laser cut and production plastic units that are available without sacrificing detail or viewing appeal. I would like nothing more than to encourage new products using the process than to copy something that has already been done or belongs to someone else.
 
All of that being said, if anyone would be interested in new printed card models and would like to produce some of their own, I would encourge them to look into it as a viable, if not less costly alternative to the other kits mentioned.
 
Larry Miller III

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Paper Side-Printing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 7:05 PM

Please don't bother LaBelle about paper side printing plates.

He needs the time to get Red Ball up and running again.

He does NOT HAVE the plates. They were not included in the sale of Red Ball to LaBelle.

He DOES have rights to the side art for some 200-300 Specoalty cars, Reefers and Boxcars. They are a valuable part of the Red Ball line. This would be akin to pirating castings which has frequently been discussed here. 

Printing reproductions would be an intrusion on his property rights.

The printing plates are being prepared as Red Ball keepsakes. Many folks have previously reserved specific items. Multicolor car sides involved multiple plates. LaBelle's property rights are being protected by the manner in which the plates will be offered. Appropriate opportunities for future purchase of these menmorabelia will occur in the future. Not now. No info provided now, please.

Most Red Ball embossing and some printing plates experienced similar difficulties as many Zamak loco castings in their 50+ year existence. Anyone TRYING to use the surviving tools would first have to become very proficient at opperation of letterpress printing equipment. It's not an "easy button pusher."

Merle Rice
Manufacturer of Red Ball 1975-2009



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Group: vintageHO Message: 13210 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/11/2010
Subject: Re: : Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Jim, I have seen the ad for that Super Scale 3-power switcher, and it is based upon the NY Central ones used on Manhattan's West Side, and also by the DL&W which is why I want it! I'm always keeping an eye out for that and now I have competiton, if it was ever manufactured, LOL! (Still looking for that Cambron Ad I remember, have to find that first!) W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> W Jay W, Roger A,
>
> Just to clarify the type of Super Scale switcher I am looking for. It is not their two yard switcher types but a light road switcher something along the line of a Geep. It is described as being "the three power switcher occasionally employed by the NYC for passenger runs" This is not to get away from Roger A's original topic but to clarify exactly what I am looking for by Super Scale and talked about in my previous post.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jim heckard
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 5:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
>
>
> Roger A, W Jay W,
>
> I just got in and saw your message. Will check a little later on. We were fortunate here in Schuylkill and neighboring Carbon counties to get the highest snowfall totals of ANYBODY in any state that had snow from the storm yesterday. I am dealing with 23"-24" and just getting squared away. A little nap is in the forecast.
>
> Off hand nothing is ringing a bell. I thought that Central Valley only made trucks but never doing any research on them can't be 100 % sure. There are just to many lesser known products to keep track of all. When you say oil fired electrics I understand the oil fired part but is the shape of this "electric" like Walther's Gas Electrics ? While I collect vintage HO big time I'm not well versed on full size engines.
>
> Jay mentions the possibility of the wrong name. However there were a number of items from many HO companies that were advertised and even a couple pre production samples brought to big train shows, announced as going into production and nothing happens. ( I remember once that Lindberg did this and it never showed up ).
>
> Not to change the subject but I am searching for information on a little known , hard to find ( so far) BB switcher etched copper body, less power,by Super Scale. It was advertised but I have never found one or seen paperwork for it.
>
> So while sticking to my motto "Never Say Never" I have to wonder if it was this type of case where it was announced, maybe even by Central Valley, and nothing further.
>
> Right now, like Jay, I am putting out "ifs and maybes". NO Facts. However the mention made of Adams & Son with Central Locomotive Works even if in O gauge is both intriguing and more information .This A&S seems to have many tentacles pertaining to many early production items.
>
> Sorry nothing definite but I will check further. Jay Guess who one guy is I will pester for possible answer.
>
> Jim H
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:07 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
>
>
>
> Hi Roger A.,(and Jim H.),
>
> Theories and no facts: Although I am far from the most knowledgable, I have not seen any mention of a Central Valley HO Scale oil-electric before, and although Central Valley was in operation then, could the writer have confused the name with the famous Central Locomotive Works who did make a number of interesting locomotive kits in O scale?
>
> And even though Central Locomotive was firmly in the O Scale field, could thay have been contemplating an entry into HO? The reason I ask this is that the articles linked below say that during that early period from 1947, Bob Smith of Central Locomotive worked closely with Lindsey Adams of Adam's and Son, and that Adams did Smith's pattern Work. We know that Adams & Son also produced the castings for a number of HO scale models.
>
> http://users.foxvalley.net/~osn/BobSmith1993.htm
>
> Another possibility is that Bob Lindsay worked closely with George Hook and Harry Weiss of Central Valley in their early days, and that Lindsay soon went on to produce his line of oil-electrics - diesels. Could there have been a misunderstanding on the part of the writer there, too, thinking Lindsay was still working ith them?
>
> More questions than answers, but will watch for any other references to Central Valley and an oil-electric.
>
> W. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "roger" <raul@> wrote:
> >
> > This morning after breakfast I was paging through the March 1949 issue of H-O Monthly, on page 26 there is a mention of the above, Central Valley Oil-Electrics. I cannot recall hearing of those before or that CV had made a locomotive. Could this of been a mistake in the magazine
> > or was there such a locomotive? Roger Aultman
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13211 From: RalphB Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: : Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, jim h wrote:
>
> Just to clarify the type of Super Scale switcher I am looking for. It is...light road switcher something along the line of a Geep. It is described as being "the three power switcher occasionally employed by the NYC for passenger runs"
---------
I don't have model mags back as far as some of you, but I'm curious if what you're talking about is the one-off 3-power switcher, NYC 1525 (later 525). I say "one-off" because all subsequent 3-power units appear to have been built as full box-cab units, while #1525 had a long
central cab with narrowed hoods at both ends.

Ralph B
Group: vintageHO Message: 13212 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Super Scale 3-Power B-B loco kit? Was: Central Valley Oil-Electrics
Hi Ralph B., Jim H., I had been working on a complete article with references this AM and clicked the wrong key and lost it and have to start again. But Ralph, According to the advertisements and other information I will post later today, The Super Scale model was or was to have been based on NY Central #'s 1526-1560 bult by GE, the full boxcabs and not the 1525 one-off experimental built by Alco. Photos and information of both prototypes are also in the Second Diesel Spotters Guide published by Kalmbach and I will provide a link to a prototype photo in my next post as it is part of the story. W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, jim h wrote:
> >
> > Just to clarify the type of Super Scale switcher I am looking for. It is...light road switcher something along the line of a Geep. It is described as being "the three power switcher occasionally employed by the NYC for passenger runs"
> ---------
> I don't have model mags back as far as some of you, but I'm curious if what you're talking about is the one-off 3-power switcher, NYC 1525 (later 525). I say "one-off" because all subsequent 3-power units appear to have been built as full box-cab units, while #1525 had a long
> central cab with narrowed hoods at both ends.
>
> Ralph B
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13213 From: jim heckard Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: : Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Ralph B,
 
     This is where I am limited when talk gets to the real thing. I can only talk about an HO item made , proposed or being made. The little bit of info I related was what the HO model was to be a copy of. I'm sorry I can't help any further but I'm sure there are many out there that can like W Jay W.
 
                                                          Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: RalphB
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 10:55 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: : Central Valley Oil-Electrics?

 

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, jim h wrote:
>
> Just to clarify the type of Super Scale switcher I am looking for. It is...light road switcher something along the line of a Geep. It is described as being "the three power switcher occasionally employed by the NYC for passenger runs"
---------
I don't have model mags back as far as some of you, but I'm curious if what you're talking about is the one-off 3-power switcher, NYC 1525 (later 525). I say "one-off" because all subsequent 3-power units appear to have been built as full box-cab units, while #1525 had a long
central cab with narrowed hoods at both ends.

Ralph B

Group: vintageHO Message: 13214 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Dave, Your Santa Fe (S.F.R.D.) reefer #16147 is a Red Ball car side number
(R.B. catalog #182), and the reason why it has no map is because it
represents a Santa Fe reefer of the 1922 era before the system map was included on
these cars. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13215 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Varney 2nd version reefer?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13216 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Varney 2nd version reefer?
Dave, Varney's earlier version R-2 Santa Fe (S.F.R.D.) reefer, without the
map, is #46019 -- not even close to yours. Ray</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13217 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Okay!

Like I said earlier, mix-and-match.
The two ice hatches missing are exactly Varney, Varney end beams, trucks, hmmmmmm.....yet Red Ball sides.

Go figure.



> Dave, Your Santa Fe (S.F.R.D.) reefer #16147 is a Red Ball car side number
> (R.B. catalog #182), and the reason why it has no map is because it
> represents a Santa Fe reefer of the 1922 era before the system map was included on
> these cars. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13218 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Now you've got me confuzicated.

http://hoseeker.net/redball/redballcatalog03pg07.jpg

There are three SF Reefer sides, a Scout (34657?), Map (34661?) and a plain, like mine, 34851.

Now, a little more info I found last night.

My car has ladders.
Apparently, the PO was too lazy to put the individual grabs on it.
Under the ladders are the little lithographed dots for drilling out and inserting individual grabs.....not shown on the Red Ball sides.

Dave


> Dave, Your Santa Fe (S.F.R.D.) reefer #16147 is a Red Ball car side number
> (R.B. catalog #182), and the reason why it has no map is because it
> represents a Santa Fe reefer of the 1922 era before the system map was included on
> these cars. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13219 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: MEGOW Reporting Numbers
Hi Chuck, Thanks once more for uploading another manufacturer's list in
the file section. As I mentioned supplying later, here are the reporting
numbers I have of these Megow cars. It's not complete as I'm missing some cars,
but most are here.

The MEGOW Corporation

QD-1 A.R.T. Reefer 63495
QD-2 Armour Reefer 8618
QD-4 Hunter Packing Co. Reefer 1014
QD-5 Kahn's Sons Reefer 1974
QD-7 M.K.T. Reefer 52018
QD-10 Northern Refrigerator Reefer 3752
QD-11 N.P. Reefer 92789
QD-12 W.F.E.X. Reefer
QD-15 Swift Reefer 17024
QD-21 B&O Caboose C1900
QD-22 B&O Hopper 331434
QD-23 B&O Gondola 250500
QD-25 Gulf Tank Car 1580
QD-26 S.P. Steel Box Car 33135
QD-28 CCC&StL Hopper 79367
QD-29 VGN Hopper 2106
QD-30 Southern Hopper 111999
QD-31 NYC&StL Hopper 31299
QD-32 PRR Hopper 22154

Have a few more that I need to dig out. Later, Ray F. Wetzel</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13220 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Varney 2nd version reefer?
http://hoseeker.net/redball/redballrefrigeratorcars.jpg

Maybe sides, but mine is flat floor, not milled.
Ends are matching (to sides) cardstock, NOT castings.
Center sill is simply wood, not cast parts as shown.
No truck bolsters at all....the early trucks fit right agaist the floor.
No separate hinge castings, either.

Dave


> Dave, Varney's earlier version R-2 Santa Fe (S.F.R.D.) reefer, without the
> map, is #46019 -- not even close to yours. Ray</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13221 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Dave, Quite apparently, the Red Ball information supplied to H0Seeker.net
is INCOMPLETE. You can't just assume that Larry (H0Seeker) has received
every bit of info on every manufacturer -- He hasn't. I gave you the correct
Red Ball car side number for their catalog number 182. These sides HAVE "the
little lithographed dots for inserting the grabs." This IS a legitimate Red
Ball car side number for an early (1922) S.F.R.D. reefer, w/o the map. Ray
F. W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13222 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Thanks to all for their input on the CV oil-electric, I thought perhaps the CV website wold have a mention of history but could find no info there.  Perhaps it was just a editing error some 60 years ago.  I have a few mags prior to 1949, will look through those.   Roger
 
 
 
 
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?

 

   Roger A,  W Jay W,
 
    I just got in and saw your message. Will check a little later on. We were fortunate here in Schuylkill and neighboring Carbon counties to get the highest snowfall totals of ANYBODY in any state that had snow from the storm yesterday. I am dealing with 23"-24" and just getting squared away. A little nap is in the forecast.
 
   Off hand nothing is ringing a bell. I thought that Central Valley only made trucks but never doing any research on them can't be 100 % sure. There are just to many lesser known products to keep track of all. When you say oil fired electrics I understand the oil fired part but is the shape of this "electric" like Walther's Gas Electrics ? While I collect vintage HO big time I'm not well versed on full size engines.
 
  Jay mentions the possibility of the wrong name. However there were a number of items from many HO companies that were advertised and even a couple pre production samples brought to big train shows, announced as going into production and nothing happens. ( I remember once that Lindberg did this and it never showed up ).
 
    Not to change the subject but I am searching for information on a little known , hard to find ( so far)  BB switcher etched copper body, less power,by Super Scale. It was advertised but I have never found one or seen paperwork for it.
 
    So while sticking to my motto "Never Say Never" I have to wonder if it was this type of case where it was announced, maybe even by Central Valley, and nothing further.
 
    Right now, like Jay, I am putting out "ifs and maybes". NO Facts. However the mention made of Adams & Son with Central Locomotive Works even if in O gauge is both intriguing and more information .This A&S seems to have many tentacles pertaining to many early production items.
 
   Sorry nothing definite but I will check further.     Jay   Guess who one guy is I will pester for possible answer.
 
                                                              Jim H
 
     
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:07 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?

 

Hi Roger A.,(and Jim H.),

Theories and no facts: Although I am far from the most knowledgable, I have not seen any mention of a Central Valley HO Scale oil-electric before, and although Central Valley was in operation then, could the writer have confused the name with the famous Central Locomotive Works who did make a number of interesting locomotive kits in O scale?

And even though Central Locomotive was firmly in the O Scale field, could thay have been contemplating an entry into HO? The reason I ask this is that the articles linked below say that during that early period from 1947, Bob Smith of Central Locomotive worked closely with Lindsey Adams of Adam's and Son, and that Adams did Smith's pattern Work. We know that Adams & Son also produced the castings for a number of HO scale models.

http://users. foxvalley. net/~osn/ BobSmith1993. htm

Another possibility is that Bob Lindsay worked closely with George Hook and Harry Weiss of Central Valley in their early days, and that Lindsay soon went on to produce his line of oil-electrics - diesels. Could there have been a misunderstanding on the part of the writer there, too, thinking Lindsay was still working ith them?

More questions than answers, but will watch for any other references to Central Valley and an oil-electric.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "roger" <raul@...> wrote:
>
> This morning after breakfast I was paging through the March 1949 issue of H-O Monthly, on page 26 there is a mention of the above, Central Valley Oil-Electrics. I cannot recall hearing of those before or that CV had made a locomotive. Could this of been a mistake in the magazine
> or was there such a locomotive? Roger Aultman
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13223 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Roger Aultman wrote:
> Thanks to all for their input on the CV oil-electric, I thought perhaps
> the CV website wold have a mention of history but could find no info
> there. Perhaps it was just a editing error some 60 years ago. I have a
> few mags prior to 1949, will look through those. Roger

In your original post you said that you saw a "mention" of this
model. I'm wondering in what for that "mention" was - CV ad, letter to
the editor, a regular column, or other? If it was in a column, perhaps
the writer was just passing on a rumor that had no basis in reality. If
it was an ad for a "coming attraction" from CV, then it may have been
one of the many items over the years from multiple manufacturers that
was announced but never produced. I'd like to hear more about how this
was presented in the magazine.

--

Rick Jones

Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13224 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
Okay.
So, this is a Varney everywhere except the sides.
Wonderful.

Kitbash Central!

So, any idea how many different numbers for the same sides Red Ball actually used?

Being Red Ball sides answers one question.
I have never seen a Varney faded like this.

Every corner is faded differently, one side fades lighter top to bottom.
Really rough mixing paint to touch up the dings.

Dave


> Dave, Quite apparently, the Red Ball information supplied to H0Seeker.net
> is INCOMPLETE. You can't just assume that Larry (H0Seeker) has received
> every bit of info on every manufacturer -- He hasn't. I gave you the correct
> Red Ball car side number for their catalog number 182. These sides HAVE "the
> little lithographed dots for inserting the grabs." This IS a legitimate Red
> Ball car side number for an early (1922) S.F.R.D. reefer, w/o the map. Ray
> F. W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13225 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
wondering-- for a while both Red Ball and Champ Decals were both in
Medford--at the same time? If so, was there any sharing of art work? They
weren't directly competing? gj

----- Original Message -----
From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 10:17 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow


>
> Okay!
>
> Like I said earlier, mix-and-match.
> The two ice hatches missing are exactly Varney, Varney end beams, trucks,
> hmmmmmm.....yet Red Ball sides.
>
> Go figure.
>
>
>
>> Dave, Your Santa Fe (S.F.R.D.) reefer #16147 is a Red Ball car side
>> number
>> (R.B. catalog #182), and the reason why it has no map is because it
>> represents a Santa Fe reefer of the 1922 era before the system map was
>> included on
>> these cars. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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07:35:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 13226 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?
Could of been as you say, the mention was in the March 1949 issue page twenty-six of the "H-O Monthly" in the "Round the Cabin Stove" column by Roundhouse Jim.   The editor was A. V. Anderson.   Roger Aultman
 
 
From: Rick Jones
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Central Valley Oil-Electrics?

 

Roger Aultman wrote:
> Thanks to all for their input on the CV oil-electric, I thought perhaps
> the CV website wold have a mention of history but could find no info
> there. Perhaps it was just a editing error some 60 years ago. I have a
> few mags prior to 1949, will look through those. Roger

In your original post you said that you saw a "mention" of this
model. I'm wondering in what for that "mention" was - CV ad, letter to
the editor, a regular column, or other? If it was in a column, perhaps
the writer was just passing on a rumor that had no basis in reality. If
it was an ad for a "coming attraction" from CV, then it may have been
one of the many items over the years from multiple manufacturers that
was announced but never produced. I'd like to hear more about how this
was presented in the magazine.

--

Rick Jones

Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around.

Group: vintageHO Message: 13227 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
When did Red Ball use milled floors?
When did they use smooth floors?
When did they use brass roof braces?
When did they use cast car ends?
When did they use paper car ends?
When did they use wood sills?
When did they use cast sills (and bolsters)?

Dave

>
>
> Okay.
> So, this is a Varney everywhere except the sides.
> Wonderful.
>
> Kitbash Central!
>
> So, any idea how many different numbers for the same sides Red Ball actually used?
>
> Being Red Ball sides answers one question.
> I have never seen a Varney faded like this.
>
> Every corner is faded differently, one side fades lighter top to bottom.
> Really rough mixing paint to touch up the dings.
>
> Dave
>
>
> > Dave, Quite apparently, the Red Ball information supplied to H0Seeker.net
> > is INCOMPLETE. You can't just assume that Larry (H0Seeker) has received
> > every bit of info on every manufacturer -- He hasn't. I gave you the correct
> > Red Ball car side number for their catalog number 182. These sides HAVE "the
> > little lithographed dots for inserting the grabs." This IS a legitimate Red
> > Ball car side number for an early (1922) S.F.R.D. reefer, w/o the map. Ray
> > F. W.</HTML>
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13228 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/12/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
I finally found what you were talking about.
I thought it was Catalog 182.
I found it.
Now to figure out WHEN this catalog was printed.

http://hoseeker.net/redball/redballcatalog10pg27.jpg

Dave


> Dave, Your Santa Fe (S.F.R.D.) reefer #16147 is a Red Ball car side number
> (R.B. catalog #182), and the reason why it has no map is because it
> represents a Santa Fe reefer of the 1922 era before the system map was included on
> these cars. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13229 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow
The Red Ball S.F.R.D. 1922 era Santa Fe reefer (Catalog # 182) can be found
in numerous Red Ball catalogs of the early 1960's, under Howell Day's
ownership.

Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13230 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: MEGOW Reporting Numbers

Hi Ray,

Always happy to help the effort.

Take care,

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk@...
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 1:42 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MEGOW Reporting Numbers

 

 

Hi Chuck, Thanks once more for uploading another manufacturer' s list in
the file section. As I mentioned supplying later, here are the reporting
numbers I have of these Megow cars. It's not complete as I'm missing some cars,
but most are here.

Group: vintageHO Message: 13231 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow

Hi Wally,

If you can give me something I will load it in the same format as the other lists.  Then others can add to it.

Take care,

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of wetabor
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:24 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Card-Sided Cars -- and the War Effort Was Re: Megow

 

 

H4llo

I made a mistake on my first post. I meant to say that I was surprised that there had been no mention of Mantua cardboard car sides or tank car wrappers but it doesn't matter now. Thanks for your posting.

Could we get together and make a list of the Mantua refrigerator car sides. I would like to know which and how many.

Wally Tabor

Group: vintageHO Message: 13232 From: mrrwarehouse Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- When Did Red Ball Was Re: Megow
WHEN DID RED BALL QUESTIONS
Answers are contingernt on future LaBelle Woodworking Red Ball redesigns/reissues. No reference was made to specifically cataloged items for this response-only to the general practices/technologies of the line's owners. Red Ball was never a "high volume" line (we had 8 employees max during its time here). Howell Day typically packed a batch of 50 (or much less) in his summer shutdown depending on a kits volume. We ran some kits in lots of 100 and a couple of kits in lots of 150 a run. Material variations might occur from lot to lot in such things as floor that were not critical to correct appearance. In general we milled our own flat floors and the "milled floor" (I assume this meant "with longitudinal stringers" in the question) was used as made by prior owners on specific kits (not boxcars and reefers) after 1975.

MILLED WOOD FLOORS 1939 until 1997 on CERTAIN KITS.

FLAT WOOD FLOORS 1939 until 2009 on CERTAIN KITS

MILLED WOOD SUB BODY (floor and sides) 194?-1990 on CERTAIN KITS (Red Ball express reefers) and 1978-1990 on QuicKits [boxcars,reefers,express reefers sold for use with paper sides --sold individually] after the Red Ball brand exclusively used wood sides (1976) except in select special reissue kits.

WOOD CENTER SILLS on very few specific design kits after 1975. I'm uncertain prior to 1955 (see cast sill notes below). Boxcars and Reefers had cast center sills [Red Ball has a wide selection of styles] through the Howell Day and Wabash Valley/Model RR Warehouse eras.(1955-1975 and 1975-2010 respectively)

CAST CAR ENDS, END SILLS,CENTER SILLS, BOLSTERS
in Metal 1939 until 2009
in Injection Molded Styrene (Red Ball molds) 1978-2000 under Cannonball Car Shop label and 1995-2010 under Red Ball label

PAPER CAR ENDS ?? until 1975 only on embosed "steel" ends (PRR X29 prime example--and the only one to my knowledge). X29 cast ends existed prior to this time but Howell Day did do these embossed ends as well as Mill Gon and N&W Battleship gon SIDES using techniques he had used in prewar O scale models. Cast metal carsides for both gons became standard in 1976. Pre & Post War Embossed paper side "steel" boxcars (pre 1975) in my collection have metal ends.

OTHER PAPER ENDS, SILLS ETC and WOOD SILLS were not generally used by Red Ball. Knowing M Dale Newton, he may have EXPERIMENTED with some during WWII. Pre War Red Ball molds for these (in metal) exist and Newton used his printer headline casting equipment to cast them in metal. This was continued as standard practice through 2010, his original machine being replaced in kind in 1955.

Stamped Brass Roof Ribs use in kits ceased in 1975 except those included in brass B&O S1 and S2 stock car kits during 1980s.

EARLY "PRIMITIVE" PLASTICS Gondola sides, Tank Car domes, Stock Car Doors, Billboard frames etc ceased in WWII or soon thereafter (a scattering of part inventory survived the Howell Day era, however). M Dale Newton seemed to steer VERY clear of plastics after WWII leading me to suspect it a possible cause of his fire early in the Medford period. In correspondence, he never confirmed that to me. Early plastics were notorious on this. We had a disastrous plant fire with a plastic injection machine after they were "safe."

Considering the periods of time during which Red Ball printed sides were available as individual items (wide selection still 50c a pair from us in the 1980s) it should not be surprising to find "kit bashes."

Ref: "Faded Sides" A caution to collectors. UV is harmful to many plastics and many colorants (in photos,plastic and printer ink). Flourescent lights have significant levels of UV.

Merle Rice
Model RR Warehouse
Group: vintageHO Message: 13233 From: Lawrence Orr Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
Attached is a scan again from the 1941 Megow catalog that lists all the Q kits available at the time. It does not appear to be very clear, so I will fill in the numbers not accounted for on Ray's list:
 
Q 3  Fruit Grower's Express
Q 6  Krey Packing Co.
Q 8  M.U.N.X. Reefer Car
Q 9  North American Dispatch
Q 13  Pacific Fruit Express
Q 14  Santa Fe Reefer Car
Q 16  Union Ref. Transfer
Q 17  Northwestern Ref. Line
Q 18  Green Bay & Western
Q 19  Merchant's Dispatch (M.D.T.)
Q 20  Lackawanna Ref.
Q 24  B&O Wagon Top Box Car
 
The list for 1941 ends with Q 26.
 
I hope this is of some assistance.
 
Larry
 
 
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13234 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Card-Sided Cars -- When Did Red Ball Was Re: Megow
Merle-
I am not trying to "pin you down" on this, just really puzzled.

You may have seen the photos posted in the album of this car.

Paper sided ATSF no-map reefer.
Paper ends, matching colour (and fade, so same "batch"), unmilled wooden floor, wooden sill, brass roof ribs, no bolsters (for older style direct-mount trucks).

If Red Ball didn't do Reefer paper ends, where did they come from, I wonder?

Especially matching lines, matching paint (due to same fade as sides).

Thanks for the information!

Dave


>
> WHEN DID RED BALL QUESTIONS
> Answers are contingernt on future LaBelle Woodworking Red Ball redesigns/reissues. No reference was made to specifically cataloged items for this response-only to the general practices/technologies of the line's owners. Red Ball was never a "high volume" line (we had 8 employees max during its time here). Howell Day typically packed a batch of 50 (or much less) in his summer shutdown depending on a kits volume. We ran some kits in lots of 100 and a couple of kits in lots of 150 a run. Material variations might occur from lot to lot in such things as floor that were not critical to correct appearance. In general we milled our own flat floors and the "milled floor" (I assume this meant "with longitudinal stringers" in the question) was used as made by prior owners on specific kits (not boxcars and reefers) after 1975.
>
> MILLED WOOD FLOORS 1939 until 1997 on CERTAIN KITS.
>
> FLAT WOOD FLOORS 1939 until 2009 on CERTAIN KITS
>
> MILLED WOOD SUB BODY (floor and sides) 194?-1990 on CERTAIN KITS (Red Ball express reefers) and 1978-1990 on QuicKits [boxcars,reefers,express reefers sold for use with paper sides --sold individually] after the Red Ball brand exclusively used wood sides (1976) except in select special reissue kits.
>
> WOOD CENTER SILLS on very few specific design kits after 1975. I'm uncertain prior to 1955 (see cast sill notes below). Boxcars and Reefers had cast center sills [Red Ball has a wide selection of styles] through the Howell Day and Wabash Valley/Model RR Warehouse eras.(1955-1975 and 1975-2010 respectively)
>
> CAST CAR ENDS, END SILLS,CENTER SILLS, BOLSTERS
> in Metal 1939 until 2009
> in Injection Molded Styrene (Red Ball molds) 1978-2000 under Cannonball Car Shop label and 1995-2010 under Red Ball label
>
> PAPER CAR ENDS ?? until 1975 only on embosed "steel" ends (PRR X29 prime example--and the only one to my knowledge). X29 cast ends existed prior to this time but Howell Day did do these embossed ends as well as Mill Gon and N&W Battleship gon SIDES using techniques he had used in prewar O scale models. Cast metal carsides for both gons became standard in 1976. Pre & Post War Embossed paper side "steel" boxcars (pre 1975) in my collection have metal ends.
>
> OTHER PAPER ENDS, SILLS ETC and WOOD SILLS were not generally used by Red Ball. Knowing M Dale Newton, he may have EXPERIMENTED with some during WWII. Pre War Red Ball molds for these (in metal) exist and Newton used his printer headline casting equipment to cast them in metal. This was continued as standard practice through 2010, his original machine being replaced in kind in 1955.
>
> Stamped Brass Roof Ribs use in kits ceased in 1975 except those included in brass B&O S1 and S2 stock car kits during 1980s.
>
> EARLY "PRIMITIVE" PLASTICS Gondola sides, Tank Car domes, Stock Car Doors, Billboard frames etc ceased in WWII or soon thereafter (a scattering of part inventory survived the Howell Day era, however). M Dale Newton seemed to steer VERY clear of plastics after WWII leading me to suspect it a possible cause of his fire early in the Medford period. In correspondence, he never confirmed that to me. Early plastics were notorious on this. We had a disastrous plant fire with a plastic injection machine after they were "safe."
>
> Considering the periods of time during which Red Ball printed sides were available as individual items (wide selection still 50c a pair from us in the 1980s) it should not be surprising to find "kit bashes."
>
> Ref: "Faded Sides" A caution to collectors. UV is harmful to many plastics and many colorants (in photos,plastic and printer ink). Flourescent lights have significant levels of UV.
>
> Merle Rice
> Model RR Warehouse
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13235 From: Garry Spear Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Varney G3 Gondola Kit
Box
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S896a.jpg
Instructions and Sides
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S896c.jpg
Parts, etc
http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S896b.jpg

What year (approx.) was the kit manufactured? I remember Varney kits
with cardboard sides, but not metal.

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 13236 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney G3 Gondola Kit
Gary. The Varney G-3 D&RGW 44' Gondola (reporting number, 71427) was
produced between 1940 and 1942. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13237 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Megow
Larry, In reading over your most recent post, I find that I'm at a loss as
to how to understand what you seem to be saying about your attempt at
filling in "the numbers not accounted for on Ray's list." I just don't know what
you're trying to say here, as I fail to see what you mean. While you have
given catalog numbers to ALL the kits that I had just previously listed, you
haven't given ANY car side numbers, so I don't see anything that you've
filled in. Did you omit this further information for any specific purpose?

As for my Megow listing, I listed EVERY car kit that they manufactured in
my post of 2/09/10 (10:25 AM), under "The MEGOW Corporation" heading within
that post -- from QD-1 RIGHT THROUGH QD-32 inclusive, and all their
Miscellaneous Products besides -- Their COMPLETE line. Now, when I got back and
posted (on 2/12/10 -- @ 1:42 PM) only the reporting numbers (car side numbers,
often found in conjuction with the REPORTING MARKS -- the RR's abbreviations)
for those kits that I had the info at hand for, I naturally only did so
with the particular car kits (and corresponding kit numbers) that I had these
car side numbers for, intentionally leaving out the kits I hadn't had the
reporting numbers for, as it would not serve any purpose for me to relist them
again without this additional info.

Chuck Higdon (whom you may have seen helping if you've been following this
thread) was kind enough to post my original complete car kit listing (with
all kit numbers) as a spreadsheet in the files without yet having any
reporting numbers (car side numbers) at that time, and then afterwards, my
follow-up post which included only the cars with reporting numbers helping him round
this spread sheet out further with this additional information. Can you
please clarify your statement as I'm completely lost as to the meaning of your
comment, as I see no "filling in" that you've done that I haven't already
posted; thanks. Ray Wetzel</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13238 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Open Apology to Garry, was: Varney G3 Gondola Kit
Hi Garry, I wish to extend my apologies to you in mispelling your name
despite my attempts to spell it correctly. Before sending my previous "Varney
G3 Gondola Kit" message, I had first typed it as "Garty," hitting the "t"
along side the "r" the second time by mistake. Then, after deleting the "t,"
I neglected to type in the second "r" before sending, so you were left with
only one "r" in your name. Sorry, my bad.
Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13239 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Varney Boxes - a question
All,

I have an old Varney box on display here at home. It is on display as I have never seen one _quite_ like it:

It is for an Santa Fe boxcar, kit B-14.

On the end of the box it is marked 'Hollywood Calif'
On the top of the lid, where there is an artists rendering of what appears to be a 4-6-2 Pacific, and a couple high cars (PFE yellow reefer and red outside braced boxcar), there are three notations:

"2" Locomotives
"30" Different Cars
Scale Length Trains


Is this a very early box? All my others show as offering 8 locomotives...

What year would this have appeared?

Or is it a WWII era box as loco production was halting?

-Steve Neubaum
Group: vintageHO Message: 13240 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Effort
Looks like we could use some sort of car kit listing for Mantua metal cars.
I'll make the attempt with a limited number of road numbers (reporting
numbers) that I was able to dig out in the short time I had to access a portion
of my Mantua collection -- with reporting marks where known -- and with
still a good number of car side numbers not being accessed. Perhaps others can
fill in on some of these road numbers if they have them. I do note, that
Mantua used multiple numbers on their cardstock sides at times. At other
times, as with the Gerber's reefer, you will find only one car number (maybe
there was only one such prototype car?).

I'll list all the kit numbers that were used for these cars post-War, but
these same kits were never assigned car kit numbers pre-War. Also, I'd like
to point out that there were originally only four freight car kits -- in
1938 -- all factory pre-painted, although unlettered), from what is seen in the
catalogs. A further point to bear in mind is that, while Mantua's freight
car kit types (Hoppers, Reefers, etc.) were all assigned only ONE Catalog
Kit Number for each car kit type, all Roadnames for a particular freight car
type bore the same Catalog Kit Number regardless of the Roadname. To further
distinguish between them, I'll also use their particular code number (in
parentheses) as assigned to separate car side pairs of sides as they were also
sold, with their associated Road Names.

MANTUA METAL PRODUCTS

Early Production

4-Wheel Caboose -- Factory Painted, Undec.
8-Wheel Caboose -- Factory Painted, Undec.
Gondola -- Factory Painted (no cardstcock sides), Undec.
Flat Car -- Factory Painted, Undec.

Refrigerator Car - Catalog # 301

Santa Fe (side set #9418)
Rath's Black Hawk (#9419) R.P.R.X. 208
NYC Merchants Despatch (#9420) M.D.T. 20130
Swift Premium Ham (#9421) SRIX 9421, 18139, 21746
Crazy Crystal (#9422) A.R.T. 451
Armour Star Lard (#9423) A.R.L.X. 15046, 16044
Fruit Growers Express (#9424) F.G.E.X.
Western Fruit Express GN (#9425) W.F.E.X. 6538, 65045
Berkshire Ham (#9426) M.A.H.X. 2017
Burlington/CB&Q (#9427) B.R.E.X. 75559, 75565
Land O Lakes (#9428) N.A.D.X.
Chicago & Northwestern (#9429) N.W.X.
Gerber Foods Products (#9430) G.S.V.X. 1001
Pacific Fruit Express (#9431) SP-UP - P.F.E. 35474
Pacific Fruit Express (9432) WP - P.F.E. 51201
Baby Ruth (#9433) N.A.D.X. 6240
Lackawanna (#9434) L.R.X. 7047
Pluto Water (#9435) N.A.D.X. 1346, 2640
Borden's Fine Cheese (#9436) B.P.D.X. 12021
Morrell's Pride (#9437)
College Inn (pre-War only: no set #) C.I.P.X.
Pacific Fruit Express (no set #) SP (only) -- P.F.E. 5746

Will continue where I left off, with listings for Mantua Box Cars, Tank
Cars,Hopper, Gons, etc., in a following post in this thread. Ray Wetzel






</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13241 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Effort
I have, in my left hand, a metal Mantua reefer, cardboard glue-on sides, Berkshire Ham and Bacon, Miller & Hart, MAHX 2046, with the downleg of the "4" extending into the bottom yellow band, same on both sides.
Red, yellow and black car sides.

Dave


> Looks like we could use some sort of car kit listing for Mantua metal cars.
> I'll make the attempt with a limited number of road numbers (reporting
> numbers) that I was able to dig out in the short time I had to access a portion
> of my Mantua collection -- with reporting marks where known -- and with
> still a good number of car side numbers not being accessed. Perhaps others can
> fill in on some of these road numbers if they have them. I do note, that
> Mantua used multiple numbers on their cardstock sides at times. At other
> times, as with the Gerber's reefer, you will find only one car number (maybe
> there was only one such prototype car?).
>
> I'll list all the kit numbers that were used for these cars post-War, but
> these same kits were never assigned car kit numbers pre-War. Also, I'd like
> to point out that there were originally only four freight car kits -- in
> 1938 -- all factory pre-painted, although unlettered), from what is seen in the
> catalogs. A further point to bear in mind is that, while Mantua's freight
> car kit types (Hoppers, Reefers, etc.) were all assigned only ONE Catalog
> Kit Number for each car kit type, all Roadnames for a particular freight car
> type bore the same Catalog Kit Number regardless of the Roadname. To further
> distinguish between them, I'll also use their particular code number (in
> parentheses) as assigned to separate car side pairs of sides as they were also
> sold, with their associated Road Names.
>
> MANTUA METAL PRODUCTS
>
> Early Production
>
> 4-Wheel Caboose -- Factory Painted, Undec.
> 8-Wheel Caboose -- Factory Painted, Undec.
> Gondola -- Factory Painted (no cardstcock sides), Undec.
> Flat Car -- Factory Painted, Undec.
>
> Refrigerator Car - Catalog # 301
>
> Santa Fe (side set #9418)
> Rath's Black Hawk (#9419) R.P.R.X. 208
> NYC Merchants Despatch (#9420) M.D.T. 20130
> Swift Premium Ham (#9421) SRIX 9421, 18139, 21746
> Crazy Crystal (#9422) A.R.T. 451
> Armour Star Lard (#9423) A.R.L.X. 15046, 16044
> Fruit Growers Express (#9424) F.G.E.X.
> Western Fruit Express GN (#9425) W.F.E.X. 6538, 65045
> Berkshire Ham (#9426) M.A.H.X. 2017
> Burlington/CB&Q (#9427) B.R.E.X. 75559, 75565
> Land O Lakes (#9428) N.A.D.X.
> Chicago & Northwestern (#9429) N.W.X.
> Gerber Foods Products (#9430) G.S.V.X. 1001
> Pacific Fruit Express (#9431) SP-UP - P.F.E. 35474
> Pacific Fruit Express (9432) WP - P.F.E. 51201
> Baby Ruth (#9433) N.A.D.X. 6240
> Lackawanna (#9434) L.R.X. 7047
> Pluto Water (#9435) N.A.D.X. 1346, 2640
> Borden's Fine Cheese (#9436) B.P.D.X. 12021
> Morrell's Pride (#9437)
> College Inn (pre-War only: no set #) C.I.P.X.
> Pacific Fruit Express (no set #) SP (only) -- P.F.E. 5746
>
> Will continue where I left off, with listings for Mantua Box Cars, Tank
> Cars,Hopper, Gons, etc., in a following post in this thread. Ray Wetzel
>
>
>
>
>
>
> </HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13242 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Boxes - a question
Steve, That Varney box was used in 1938, 1939 and 1940. That artist you
refer to as rendering the box's artwork -- including the 4-6-2 Pacific and
the two freight cars was Jim Trout, Gordon Varney's staff artist who did many
if the kit plans and drawings. You may not be familiar with it as one of
the more commonly seen ones since it's pre-War, but it was not particularly
rare as during those years this box was used extensively. As there are
continually fewer pre-War kits being available as years pass, there are natuarlly
fewer of these boxes containing them still around -- so I guess you could
say it's becoming scarcer. Of the built up cars you see at train meets (if
you attend them), how many of them do you actually see with boxes? This goes
for any era of manufacture, but especially as the earlier ones get built
over time, and there is more time for them to get built by one owner or the
next before you see it, as more time passes; many boxes get thrown out by
modelers not thinking about storing the models after they're built. Ray F.W.
</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13243 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Boxes - a question
I have maybe 10 of these boxes, and they do look sharp.

Like I said though, the question is, when did they switch over to saying 8 locomotives versus 2 locomotives?

Every other box like this I have seen says 8 locomotives on it. This one with 2 locos is the only one I have ever seen like it.

Did see a couple of these boxes with cars at Trainfest last year. However, the cars inside were pretty beat up.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 2/13/10, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:

From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Boxes - a question
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 11:19 PM

 

Steve, That Varney box was used in 1938, 1939 and 1940. That artist you
refer to as rendering the box's artwork -- including the 4-6-2 Pacific and
the two freight cars was Jim Trout, Gordon Varney's staff artist who did many
if the kit plans and drawings. You may not be familiar with it as one of
the more commonly seen ones since it's pre-War, but it was not particularly
rare as during those years this box was used extensively. As there are
continually fewer pre-War kits being available as years pass, there are natuarlly
fewer of these boxes containing them still around -- so I guess you could
say it's becoming scarcer. Of the built up cars you see at train meets (if
you attend them), how many of them do you actually see with boxes? This goes
for any era of manufacture, but especially as the earlier ones get built
over time, and there is more time for them to get built by one owner or the
next before you see it, as more time passes; many boxes get thrown out by
modelers not thinking about storing the models after they're built. Ray F.W.
</HTML>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13244 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War...
Dave, Chuck H. and All, Thanks for the additional car side number for the
Berkshire Ham reefer. I also noticed that I left off a car side number for
the Mantua C&NW (N.W.X.) Reefer which is 83036, to be added to the listing.
Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13245 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Boxes - a question
Steve, While you did ask this question "What year would this have
appeared?," and you didn't ask directly "when did they switch over to saying 8
locomotives versus 2 locomotives?," I took your question to be referring to the
older Varney box which seemed to be your main focus of your post in your
describing it at length. I did not associate your last two questions with your
remark about this other box, but thought they were all tied to your first
question ("Is this a very early box?") as it looked to me from the context of
your message that this was your main concern <g>.

This "8 locomotives versus 2 locomotives" used on a series of white boxes,
using the same basic design as your older box, replaced your earlier box
immediately after that 1938 through 1940 box was discontinued, and was used
from 1941 through 1947 (as per Dave Spanagel), with "Chicago, Illinois" printed
on the end. In 1946, these boxes received a different end panel
which were then used through 1951 with this newest change. This use
overlaps the very familiar glossy red (with yellow oval) box that was first
brought out in late 1949 to contain the then-new line of stamped metal car kits.
Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13246 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Boxes - a question
That makes sense. I think. Considering I was awake all night, unable to sleep. :-)

I have a bunch of the 8 locomotives boxes, that, along with the nicer boxes from vintage HO models, decorate my living room (Along with transport memorbilia, bus and rail primarily.) Can't forget the Strombecker instructions sheets. On one side it says you can use it as a wall poster, and that is what I do, in a picture frame of course!

I just keep looking at the 2 locomotive box and wondered about it. It is on my coffee table, so I see it whenever I am sitting on the sofa listening to my old 78 RPM records.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sun, 2/14/10, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:

From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Boxes - a question
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 8:00 AM

 

Steve, While you did ask this question "What year would this have
appeared?," and you didn't ask directly "when did they switch over to saying 8
locomotives versus 2 locomotives? ," I took your question to be referring to the
older Varney box which seemed to be your main focus of your post in your
describing it at length. I did not associate your last two questions with your
remark about this other box, but thought they were all tied to your first
question ("Is this a very early box?") as it looked to me from the context of
your message that this was your main concern <g>.

This "8 locomotives versus 2 locomotives" used on a series of white boxes,
using the same basic design as your older box, replaced your earlier box
immediately after that 1938 through 1940 box was discontinued, and was used
from 1941 through 1947 (as per Dave Spanagel), with "Chicago, Illinois" printed
on the end. In 1946, these boxes received a different end panel
which were then used through 1951 with this newest change. This use
overlaps the very familiar glossy red (with yellow oval) box that was first
brought out in late 1949 to contain the then-new line of stamped metal car kits.
Ray F.W.</HTML>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13247 From: wetabor Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War...
Hello

Thank you guys (all of you) a lot.

The first HO Gauge car kit that I built was during WW II. It was a box car. All of the parts, sides' floor, roof were wrapped in an instruction sheet and "tied" with a rubber band. What a treat it was to buy and build a Mantua refrigerator car shortly after the war.

Wally Tabor

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
> Dave, Chuck H. and All, Thanks for the additional car side number for the
> Berkshire Ham reefer. I also noticed that I left off a car side number for
> the Mantua C&NW (N.W.X.) Reefer which is 83036, to be added to the listing.
> Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13248 From: Garry Spear Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War...
Guys,

When looking a cardboard and paper sided cars  we need to remember the other sources of paper sides were available.

I have a pre WWII Mantua Schlitz Beer Reefer.  Neat car, but I don't think the sides are Mantua.  I also have two different number for a Gulf tank.  I could never find another Mantua Gulf tank with the odd number.  Until I was looking at a friends Strombecker collection, there it was the Gulf tank car with the odd number.  I think the Schlitz sides are for MRC, and I remember of mags. in the early fifties with HO paper car sides as part of the magazine.

We know of Red Ball, Binkley, Strombecker, but how about Comet and Lehigh.

Garry Spear

On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 8:19 AM, <erieberk@...> wrote:
 

Dave, Chuck H. and All, Thanks for the additional car side number for the
Berkshire Ham reefer. I also noticed that I left off a car side number for
the Mantua C&NW (N.W.X.) Reefer which is 83036, to be added to the listing.
Ray F.W.</HTML>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13249 From: Lester Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War...
I agree with you Gary. Having collected many Mantua sides that have never been used and still retain the name Mantua which is removed when the side is mounted on the car, I have myself concluded that it is the only positive way to determine if that side was made
by Mantua Other ways in many cases may be open to question Les Morris
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> When looking a cardboard and paper sided cars we need to remember the other
> sources of paper sides were available.
>
> I have a pre WWII Mantua Schlitz Beer Reefer. Neat car, but I don't think
> the sides are Mantua. I also have two different number for a Gulf tank. I
> could never find another Mantua Gulf tank with the odd number. Until I was
> looking at a friends Strombecker collection, there it was the Gulf tank car
> with the odd number. I think the Schlitz sides are for MRC, and I remember
> of mags. in the early fifties with HO paper car sides as part of the
> magazine.
>
> We know of Red Ball, Binkley, Strombecker, but how about Comet and Lehigh.
>
> Garry Spear
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 8:19 AM, <erieberk@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Dave, Chuck H. and All, Thanks for the additional car side number for the
> > Berkshire Ham reefer. I also noticed that I left off a car side number for
> > the Mantua C&NW (N.W.X.) Reefer which is 83036, to be added to the listing.
> >
> > Ray F.W.</HTML>
> >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13250 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Varney started his HO printed-side reefer production in 1937, and his
second reefer (R-2) production choice was a wood sided ATSF Reefer Rr-
x #16142 ( ACF1922). Inasmuch as it was not until January 1940 that
the Santa Fe did not start painting either maps or slogans on their
reefers (or other freight cars) , these early Varney sides could not
possibly have included either slogans or maps.

We do know that the printed sides of the same car #16142 did have the
slogans on the post war production, so it is reasonable to presume
that this subtle addition was made to the original printing when
Varney again ramped up production, and the "bare" sides on the model
in question were from the prewar production.

Spanagel's good Varney book needs to have this interesting correction
noted.

I have my own mystery car: In my own collection is a lovely very
neatly and expertly built paper-sided HO model of ATSF wood-sided
reefer 25611- also without slogan or map. The body is a solid block of
wood. The perfectly-applied paper overlays (sides, ends, roof) have
very high-grade, high-relief very fine embossing with very precise
printing. Even the ladders are in very fine raised relief. The ends
are yellow, separated from the sides with black corner posts- an early
paint scheme that was disappearing in the late thirties. There are
also fine wire safety appliances, stirrups, and brake staff. The
heavily embossed roof is topped with a cardstock running board. The
hatches and platforms, and the end sills are the only castings. The
underbody is relatively sophisticated for the time inasmuch as it
seems to have a full complement of cross members (wood).

The single grab iron on the left end of the side indicates that the
chosen prototype had not yet had the second grab applied (required c.
1935)

I presume that this HO solid ATSF reefer model was produced in the
thirties. . Whether the model was in fact built in the thirties, I
also do not know.

I occasionally place this fine model in the midst of a layout string
of fine Sunshine and Westerfield resin "prototype" cars, and only
after while do pretty sophisticated observers suddenly pick up this
"imposter".

I will post a photo when I can do so.

BTW, both the Varney and "mystery" ATSF reefers have their ice hatches
mistakenly opening to the ends, rather toward the car center- as was
Santa Fe's standard practice for decades.

Denny



Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento
Group: vintageHO Message: 13251 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- Wa
Garry, I've done other spreadsheets -- on Binkley (including Laconia) and
Comet -- which Chuck Higdon has placed in the files, so you might want to
check them out. I believe I also did an extensive one covering all of Red
Ball's cardstock-sided cars, also with a number of the all-cast car included
with them. I believe even have done one on StromBecker, but it probably
didn't include the car side numbers. On this last one, I also included all of
StromBecker's "Historic Car Kits" of Period (1831, 1837 and 1848) steam
engines and their train kits -- and the three "Streamliner" trains (which could be
electrified).

On your Schlitz Beer Reefer sides, it always helps in I.D.ing a mystery car
if you were to include the reporting number, as most often, they are
specific to the manufacturer. Red Ball did an 1897 Schlitz Beer (Union
Refrigerator Transit) -- kit # 30 in their catalog listing -- car # 3765; it was a 37'
car. If this number matches your sides, you now know what you have. Of
the other three manufacturers you mention, none of them as I remember produced
a Schlitz reefer -- which could be best checked in my spreadsheets.
Incidentally, Comet never produced any tank cars, just box cars, reefers and flat
cars -- and of their six reefer kits, none was a Schlitz. I do remember the
car side cut-outs that were included in some issues of MR, which I have in
my collection somewhere. I guess they weren't to far different in quality
to some commercially produced sides -- at least in their printing -- although
they lacked the embossing. Ray F.W.

</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13252 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- Wa
erieberk@... wrote:
> Garry, I've done other spreadsheets -- on Binkley (including Laconia) and
> Comet -- which Chuck Higdon has placed in the files, so you might want to
> check them out. I believe I also did an extensive one covering all of Red
> Ball's cardstock-sided cars, also with a number of the all-cast car included
> with them. I believe even have done one on StromBecker, but it probably
> didn't include the car side numbers. On this last one, I also included all of
> StromBecker's "Historic Car Kits" of Period (1831, 1837 and 1848) steam
> engines and their train kits -- and the three "Streamliner" trains (which could be
> electrified).

We seem to have generated a lot of documentation on vintage rolling
stock and some locomotives. I wonder if we might be able to accumulate
some similar lists for structure kits? How many of those manufacturers
have come and gone over the decades? Yet once in a while we see the
products turn up at auctions or swap meets.
Unfortunately, I have little information that I could contribute
myself to such an endeavor, but I'd be interested in knowing about older
OOP structure kits beyond the obvious FSM, SRMW and other limited
release kits. Some of them, Suydam for example, still continue to live
on under new names from new owners.

--

Rick Jones

Running Windows on a 300 MHz Pentium is like trying to fly the
Concorde on one engine.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13253 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Eff
Continuing where I left off earlier with Mantua Metal Products, the below
listing should conclude this thread with most of a more comprehensive
compilation of the manufactured kits and their related pertinent information.
There are seven more groupings (catalog model numbers) of freight cars (some
having single cars) and three "groupings" of passenger cars -- each as their
own "group."


MANTUA METAL PRODUCTS CO.

Box Cars -- Catalog # 302

Baltimore & Ohio -- Sentinel Service (side set # 9400) B&O 466096
Baltimore & Ohio (# 9401) B&O 466350
Canadian National -- Green Maple Leaf (#9402) CN 520395
Great Northern -- Yellow (# 9403) GN 10094
Great Northern -- Orange (# 9403) GN 10320
New York New Haven & Hartford -- Large Script (# 9404) NYNH&H
New York Central (# 9405) NYC
Pennsylvania RR (# 9406) 100853
Santa Fe -- Scout w/Lg Map (# 9407) ATSF 140369
Seaboard Air Line -- Orange Blossom Special (#9408) SAL
Chesapeake & Ohio (# 9409) C&O
Chicago Burlington & Quincy -- Way of the Zephyrs (# 9410) CB&Q 30401
Union Pacific (# 9411) UP 185735
Chicago & Northwestern -- Route of the 400 Streamliners (# 9412) C&NW
ERIE Railroad (# 9413) ERIE
Nickel Plate Road -- NKP (# 9414) NYC&StL 13040
Southern Pacific (# 9415) SP
Gulf Mobile & Ohio -- The Rebel Route (# 9416) GM&O
Rock Island (# 9417) CRI&P

Tank Cars -- Catalog # 303

Gulf Oil Corp. (# 9438) G.R.C.X. 1540
Sinclair Oil (# 9439) S.D.R.X. 24741
Mathieu Chemical (# 9440)
Deep Rock (# 9441) D.R.X. 2140
Texaco Oil (# 9442) T.C.X.
General American (# 9443) G.A.T.X.
Shell Oil (# 9444) S.C.C.X. 1240
Valvoline Oil (# 9445)
Penn Drake (# 9446) P.R.X. 425
Union Tank Car Co. (# 9447) U.T.L.X.
Quaker State Oil (# 9448) C.Y.C.X. 10852
Republic Oil (# 9449)

4-Wheel Caboose -- Catalog # 304

4-Wheel "Bobber" Caboose -- Reading Style -- Undec. (no cardstock sides)

8-Wheel Caboose -- Catalog # 305

8-Wheel Caboose -- Offset Cupola -- Undec. (no cardstock sides)

42' Gondola -- Catalog # 306

Baltimore & Ohio (# 9450) B&) 250538
Texas & Pacific (# 9451) T&P 17839
Rock Island (# 9452) CRI&P 80600
ERIE Railroad (# 9453) ERIE 51139
Central of Georgia (# 9454) CG 18300
Pennsylvania RR (# 9455) PRR

34' Twin Hopper -- Catalog # 307

Baltimore & Ohio (# 9456) B&O
Pennsylvania RR (# 9457) PRR 220301
Chicago Burlington & Quincy -- Aluminum (# 9458) CB&Q
Reading Company (# 9459) RDG 65950
Virginian (# 9460) VGN 2106
Missouri Pacific (# 9461) MP

40' Flat Car -- Catalog # 308

Flat Car (cast metal) Factory Painted (Tuscan Red), Undec.

Old Time Coach -- Catalog # 501

Old Time Passenger Coach -- Undec.

Old Time Baggage Car -- Catalog # 502

Old Time Baggage -- Undec.

Old Time Combine -- Catalog # 503

Old Time Combination -- Undec.

This should complete the car listings for Mantua Metal Products Co. Please
feel free to make any additions or corrections to this; thank you. Ray
Wetzel
</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13254 From: Russ Shiel Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
I checked Dave Spanagel's card-sided car list after seeing Denny's description of  his mystery car...Denny...Dave has SFRD #25611 as a H. Owen car...Ray W, what do you think? Chrs, Russ

From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 15 February, 2010 5:16:08 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --

 

I have my own mystery car: In my own collection is a lovely very
neatly and expertly built paper-sided HO model of ATSF wood-sided
reefer 25611- also without slogan or map.


 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13255 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War...
The Berkshire car in Mantua I mentioned is Mantua.
I put the sides on, and cut the "Mantua" off.



> I agree with you Gary. Having collected many Mantua sides that have never been used and still retain the name Mantua which is removed when the side is mounted on the car, I have myself concluded that it is the only positive way to determine if that side was made
> by Mantua Other ways in many cases may be open to question Les Morris
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Garry Spear <garrettspear@> wrote:
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> > When looking a cardboard and paper sided cars we need to remember the other
> > sources of paper sides were available.
> >
> > I have a pre WWII Mantua Schlitz Beer Reefer. Neat car, but I don't think
> > the sides are Mantua. I also have two different number for a Gulf tank. I
> > could never find another Mantua Gulf tank with the odd number. Until I was
> > looking at a friends Strombecker collection, there it was the Gulf tank car
> > with the odd number. I think the Schlitz sides are for MRC, and I remember
> > of mags. in the early fifties with HO paper car sides as part of the
> > magazine.
> >
> > We know of Red Ball, Binkley, Strombecker, but how about Comet and Lehigh.
> >
> > Garry Spear
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 8:19 AM, <erieberk@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dave, Chuck H. and All, Thanks for the additional car side number for the
> > > Berkshire Ham reefer. I also noticed that I left off a car side number for
> > > the Mantua C&NW (N.W.X.) Reefer which is 83036, to be added to the listing.
> > >
> > > Ray F.W.</HTML>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13256 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Hi Russ, YES -- you're quite astute! I have that same number (25617) for
an early Santa Fe reefer (sans slogan and map) as an H. Owen, so you're
correct. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13257 From: RalphB Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Different box, old instructions, but....
At the Springfield (Mass) train show a couple of weeks ago I picked up a Silver Streak 50' mechanical reefer kit. It was a bargain - only $4. I have three other Silver Streak cars, all in yellow boxes - one Pacific HO, one Walthers, and the other unmarked. This particular kit is in an orange box and it's labelled as a "Division of Wm. K. Walthers."

I looked at the instructions and they start out, "Glue the roof, floor and end blocks together." Didn't think anything of it, it's just an older style kit. A couple of days ago, though, I decided to take a closer look and compare this car to the other Silver Streak reefer I have.

The sides, except for the color and lettering, are identical to my other car. Hmmm! Pulled out the parts bags and the padding and there's a metal floor piece - just like my other car. Seems as I'd bought a newer car in an older box. Fortunately, I still have the box - with the instructions - for my other reefer; it won't be a problem putting this latest acquisition together.

Anybody need the instruction sheet for a Silver Streak 40' wood reefer?

Ralph B
Group: vintageHO Message: 13258 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Eff
Hi Ray F.W.,
 
I can supply the following Mantua tank car wrapper numbers highlighted in blue from wrappers in my collection and added the colors:
 
Gulf Oil Corp. (# 9438) G.R.C.X. 1540 (black w/ white lettering, orange logo)
Sinclair Oil (# 9439) S.D.R.X. 24741 (black w/ white lettering)
Mathieu Chemical (# 9440) S.H.P.X 6040 (deep blue-green & red, white letter.)
Deep Rock (# 9441) D.R.X. 2140 (black w/ white lettering)
Texaco Oil (# 9442) T.C.X.
General American (# 9443) G.A.T.X. 1040 (silver & black, black lettering)
Shell Oil (# 9444) S.C.C.X. 1240 (orange, black outlined red "SHELL" letters, black lettering)
Valvoline Oil (# 9445) V.O.W.X. 836 (black w/ white lettering)
Penn Drake (# 9446) P.R.X. 425 (black w/ white lettering)
Union Tank Car Co. (# 9447) U.T.L.X. 29341 (black w/ white lettering)
Quaker State Oil (# 9448) C.Y.C.X. 10852 (silver & black, black lettering)
Republic Oil (# 9449) C.P.O.X. 8005 (silver & black, red "REPUBLIC" black lettering)
To All: I have an extra new Union Tank Car Co. wrapper and will trade it even up for a Texaco to compete my collection, please contact me off list!
 
W Jay W.


From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, February 14, 2010 5:42:54 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Eff

 

Continuing where I left off earlier with Mantua Metal Products, the below
listing should conclude this thread with most of a more comprehensive
compilation of the manufactured kits and their related pertinent information.
There are seven more groupings (catalog model numbers) of freight cars (some
having single cars) and three "groupings" of passenger cars -- each as their
own "group."

MANTUA METAL PRODUCTS CO.

Box Cars -- Catalog # 302

Baltimore & Ohio -- Sentinel Service (side set # 9400) B&O 466096
Baltimore & Ohio (# 9401) B&O 466350
Canadian National -- Green Maple Leaf (#9402) CN 520395
Great Northern -- Yellow (# 9403) GN 10094
Great Northern -- Orange (# 9403) GN 10320
New York New Haven & Hartford -- Large Script (# 9404) NYNH&H
New York Central (# 9405) NYC
Pennsylvania RR (# 9406) 100853
Santa Fe -- Scout w/Lg Map (# 9407) ATSF 140369
Seaboard Air Line -- Orange Blossom Special (#9408) SAL
Chesapeake & Ohio (# 9409) C&O
Chicago Burlington & Quincy -- Way of the Zephyrs (# 9410) CB&Q 30401
Union Pacific (# 9411) UP 185735
Chicago & Northwestern -- Route of the 400 Streamliners (# 9412) C&NW
ERIE Railroad (# 9413) ERIE
Nickel Plate Road -- NKP (# 9414) NYC&StL 13040
Southern Pacific (# 9415) SP
Gulf Mobile & Ohio -- The Rebel Route (# 9416) GM&O
Rock Island (# 9417) CRI&P

Tank Cars -- Catalog # 303

Gulf Oil Corp. (# 9438) G.R.C.X. 1540
Sinclair Oil (# 9439) S.D.R.X. 24741
Mathieu Chemical (# 9440)
Deep Rock (# 9441) D.R.X. 2140
Texaco Oil (# 9442) T.C.X.
General American (# 9443) G.A.T.X.
Shell Oil (# 9444) S.C.C.X. 1240
Valvoline Oil (# 9445)
Penn Drake (# 9446) P.R.X. 425
Union Tank Car Co. (# 9447) U.T.L.X.
Quaker State Oil (# 9448) C.Y.C.X. 10852
Republic Oil (# 9449)

4-Wheel Caboose -- Catalog # 304

4-Wheel "Bobber" Caboose -- Reading Style -- Undec. (no cardstock sides)

8-Wheel Caboose -- Catalog # 305

8-Wheel Caboose -- Offset Cupola -- Undec. (no cardstock sides)

42' Gondola -- Catalog # 306

Baltimore & Ohio (# 9450) B&) 250538
Texas & Pacific (# 9451) T&P 17839
Rock Island (# 9452) CRI&P 80600
ERIE Railroad (# 9453) ERIE 51139
Central of Georgia (# 9454) CG 18300
Pennsylvania RR (# 9455) PRR

34' Twin Hopper -- Catalog # 307

Baltimore & Ohio (# 9456) B&O
Pennsylvania RR (# 9457) PRR 220301
Chicago Burlington & Quincy -- Aluminum (# 9458) CB&Q
Reading Company (# 9459) RDG 65950
Virginian (# 9460) VGN 2106
Missouri Pacific (# 9461) MP

40' Flat Car -- Catalog # 308

Flat Car (cast metal) Factory Painted (Tuscan Red), Undec.

Old Time Coach -- Catalog # 501

Old Time Passenger Coach -- Undec.

Old Time Baggage Car -- Catalog # 502

Old Time Baggage -- Undec.

Old Time Combine -- Catalog # 503

Old Time Combination -- Undec.

This should complete the car listings for Mantua Metal Products Co. Please
feel free to make any additions or corrections to this; thank you. Ray
Wetzel
</HTML>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13259 From: Wally Weart Date: 2/14/2010
Subject: Strombecker cars
Does anyone on the list have any Strombercker cars? These were my first models equipped with trucks and Mantua loop couplers pulled by a Globe diesel or Varney dockside. I still have an UP coach, a caboose and a refrigerator car.

Thanks

Wally

Group: vintageHO Message: 13260 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Strombecker cars
I have a reefer in the collection--and I picked up a set of the Rocket cars with real trucks under them--these are available.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 7:21 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker cars

Does anyone on the list have any Strombercker cars? These were my first models equipped with trucks and Mantua loop couplers pulled by a Globe diesel or Varney dockside. I still have an UP coach, a caboose and a refrigerator car.

Thanks

Wally



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Group: vintageHO Message: 13261 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Wally's request, Mantua list, was: Card-Sided Cars -- War Eff
Hi W Jay W., Many thank for filling in those missing numbers. The wrapper
colors are a big help too, and are appreciated. As I know you're aware, I
used to include the car colors in most of my previous listings, but it can
really get to be too much work. Besides, most members pretty know what to
expect at least with the more common roadnames even if they're not box car red
< g >. Cars like Valvoline or Republic would not otherwise be normally
known though.
Thanks again for your help, Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13262 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Strombecker cars
Hi Wally, Not really sure, but I may have a few StromBecker models buried
somewhere in the attic; if so, I haven't seen them for years (decades, and
many of them). They were my very first H0 models that I was building in the
late 1940's. I'm not sure if I ever had all of them, but if not, I had most
of them I do know that I never had the Streamliners though, especially not
the City of SF or the B&O, as $2.79 was a hugh amount of money back then for
an 8 or 9 year old kid. Even got in to building the large "Historic"
models, and they could be bought in increments with getting the engine first and
then adding the cars later, allow you to budget for them.

My very first of what I'd call a "scale H0" model, as recognized from being
manufactured by a scale model company, was a Varney ERIE box car. Soon
after, a school chum of mine gave me a Comet T&P box car which I built up
fairly presentable, although I didn't like the idea that it came without trucks.
I guess Varney spoiled me < G >. I never converted the StromBeckers
though, from their wooden trucks and soon put them aside. I sure enjoyed
building them though. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13263 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker cars
Hi Wally, Ray F.W., All,

When I was several years into vintage HO, came across a very well-constructed StromBeker Shell tank car. The wood frame was assembled square, no glue drips and sanded and painted to a satiny finish. Truck and coupler mounting pilot holes drilled, but none ever mounted. I had no idea as to its origins.

It had a certain basic appeal in its all wood construction, so I matched it up with a pair of those well-rolling and equalized, but elemental stamped steel Megow trucks, the ones with the exposed axle ends, and they have always looked good together. For couplers, just have some old diecast knuckle dummies, maybe should replace them with Megow's, in keeping with the low budget approach, as those were less costly than Mantua's, and still functioned well enough.

At a show, I later found a matching StromBecker Hercules tank car, also well constructed, and never had any trucks mounted or even drilled for either, then right after found a pack of their instruction sheets and identified them.

However, finding those sheets helped identify another mystery I had acquired. Boss Merle of Model RR Warehouse will flip if he reads this. I bid on a partially completed and painted Red Ball Jordan Spreader. It had been about 50% completed, but what must have turned the other bidders off were the trucks. You guessed it. The otherwise skilled kit builder had solidly GLUED a pair of all-wood wood StromBecker trucks to the floor/underframe! This in the 1980's!

I still can't figure our what he was thinking?

I do have a few StromBecker boxcars/reefers in the sell carton and will dig them out again and take another look, get the numbers. I always liked the story of why the middle "B" was always capitalized in the StromBecker name - two individuals formed the firm, Mr. Strombeck and Mr. Becker!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
> Hi Wally, Not really sure, but I may have a few StromBecker models buried
> somewhere in the attic; if so, I haven't seen them for years (decades, and
> many of them). They were my very first H0 models that I was building in the
> late 1940's. I'm not sure if I ever had all of them, but if not, I had most
> of them I do know that I never had the Streamliners though, especially not
> the City of SF or the B&O, as $2.79 was a hugh amount of money back then for
> an 8 or 9 year old kid. Even got in to building the large "Historic"
> models, and they could be bought in increments with getting the engine first and
> then adding the cars later, allow you to budget for them.
>
> My very first of what I'd call a "scale H0" model, as recognized from being
> manufactured by a scale model company, was a Varney ERIE box car. Soon
> after, a school chum of mine gave me a Comet T&P box car which I built up
> fairly presentable, although I didn't like the idea that it came without trucks.
> I guess Varney spoiled me < G >. I never converted the StromBeckers
> though, from their wooden trucks and soon put them aside. I sure enjoyed
> building them though. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13264 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker cars
I have a Strombecker (built but no trucks or couplers) Heinz vinegar tank car.  I also have the instruction sheet.  The kit was given to me in 1964, by a NH conductor who was running Strombecker cars on his model railroad as he had done for many years.  I have it on display in my basement.  I should put appropriate trucks under it and some sort of period coupler.
 
Brad Smith
Franklin, WI
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13265 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Hi Ray F.W,
 
Here are the road numbers (in blue) for the six StromBecker cars I have, new information to the list is highlighted in blue; the color highlighted in yellow on the "Shell" tank car is at varience with my sample, which had been varnished at one point, but to me definitely a shade of light green:
 
Box Car    
R-10 NYC, Pacemaker Red & Grey 
R-11 B&O, Sentinel Silver & Blue  "BALTIMORE & OHIO 466090" (with yellow and black herald, blue lettering)
R-12 MKT, "KATY"  M-K-T 63049 double doors Yellow (black lettering)
Reefer 
R-21 SP-UP Pacific Fruit Express Orange 
R-22 AT&SF, "Chief" A.T.S.F. 35054  Orange ( black lettering, black & white herald; "Santa Fe all the way" and map on one side, "Route of the Chief...All Pullman Chicago-Los Angeles Streamliner" on other side) 
R-23 IC  50166 Yellow (green lettering and herald) 
Tank Car    
R-31 Shell Chemical    S.C.M.X 862  Yellow (lt. green, red SHELL CHEMICALS" black lettering)
R-32 Hercules Powder  H.P.C.X. 8000 (red w/ black weld lines, white lettering)
R-33 Heinz Vinegar Yellow 

Think I will pull them from the "sell" carton and fix them up, most of these box cars and reefers have Varney plastic ladders upgrades.
 
W. Jay W.
 


From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 6:32:05 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker cars

 

Hi Wally, Not really sure, but I may have a few StromBecker models buried
somewhere in the attic; if so, I haven't seen them for years (decades, and
many of them). They were my very first H0 models that I was building in the
late 1940's. I'm not sure if I ever had all of them, but if not, I had most
of them I do know that I never had the Streamliners though, especially not
the City of SF or the B&O, as $2.79 was a hugh amount of money back then for
an 8 or 9 year old kid. Even got in to building the large "Historic"
models, and they could be bought in increments with getting the engine first and
then adding the cars later, allow you to budget for them.

My very first of what I'd call a "scale H0" model, as recognized from being
manufactured by a scale model company, was a Varney ERIE box car. Soon
after, a school chum of mine gave me a Comet T&P box car which I built up
fairly presentable, although I didn't like the idea that it came without trucks.
I guess Varney spoiled me < G >. I never converted the StromBeckers
though, from their wooden trucks and soon put them aside. I sure enjoyed
building them though. Ray F.W.</HTML>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13266 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Ray F.W.,  Forgot to highlight the new cars numbers as new, in blue, for the ATSF and IC Reefers in previous message!  W. Jay W.


From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 10:41:54 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] StromBecker Car Road #'s

 

Hi Ray F.W,
 
Here are the road numbers (in blue) for the six StromBecker cars I have, new information to the list is highlighted in blue; the color highlighted in yellow on the "Shell" tank car is at varience with my sample, which had been varnished at one point, but to me definitely a shade of light green:
 
Box Car    
R-10 NYC, Pacemaker Red & Grey 
R-11 B&O, Sentinel Silver & Blue  "BALTIMORE & OHIO 466090" (with yellow and black herald, blue lettering)
R-12 MKT, "KATY"  M-K-T 63049 double doors Yellow (black lettering)
Reefer 
R-21 SP-UP Pacific Fruit Express Orange 
R-22 AT&SF, "Chief" A.T.S.F. 35054  Orange ( black lettering, black & white herald; "Santa Fe all the way" and map on one side, "Route of the Chief...All Pullman Chicago-Los Angeles Streamliner" on other side) 
R-23 IC  50166 Yellow (green lettering and herald) 
Tank Car    
R-31 Shell Chemical    S.C.M.X 862  Yellow (lt. green, red SHELL CHEMICALS" black lettering)
R-32 Hercules Powder  H.P.C.X. 8000 (red w/ black weld lines, white lettering)
R-33 Heinz Vinegar Yellow 

Think I will pull them from the "sell" carton and fix them up, most of these box cars and reefers have Varney plastic ladders upgrades.
 
W. Jay W.
 


From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 6:32:05 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker cars

 

Hi Wally, Not really sure, but I may have a few StromBecker models buried
somewhere in the attic; if so, I haven't seen them for years (decades, and
many of them). They were my very first H0 models that I was building in the
late 1940's. I'm not sure if I ever had all of them, but if not, I had most
of them I do know that I never had the Streamliners though, especially not
the City of SF or the B&O, as $2.79 was a hugh amount of money back then for
an 8 or 9 year old kid. Even got in to building the large "Historic"
models, and they could be bought in increments with getting the engine first and
then adding the cars later, allow you to budget for them.

My very first of what I'd call a "scale H0" model, as recognized from being
manufactured by a scale model company, was a Varney ERIE box car. Soon
after, a school chum of mine gave me a Comet T&P box car which I built up
fairly presentable, although I didn't like the idea that it came without trucks.
I guess Varney spoiled me < G >. I never converted the StromBeckers
though, from their wooden trucks and soon put them aside. I sure enjoyed
building them though. Ray F.W.</HTML>



Group: vintageHO Message: 13267 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Russ Shiel writes-

I checked Dave Spanagel's card-sided car list after seeing Denny's description of  his mystery car...Denny. ..Dave has SFRD #25611 as a H. Owen car...


Bingo!  

Wow, it is especially nice to have such a fine model from such an early date from Alan Rice Lake, THE real US HO pioneer. That it is expertly-built and very finely finished is only additive.

Thank you!

Denny
 
Denny S.  Anspach MD
Sacramento





Group: vintageHO Message: 13268 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Hi W Jay W., I remember doing a spread sheet on StromBecker, with the help
of Chuck H. filling it out and filing it, and I presume the info in black
that you show is from that file (?), since you state that the NEW information
(yours) is in blue. If so, I notice you left off the R-41 C&O Hopper car
(and R-2 Caboose), although there was probably no reason for you to include
them here. I just wanted to point out for the benefit of others that the
freight car list you've posted was not quite complete.

Many thanks for including all the details of the car sides -- that brings
back many memories. I can appreciate that detail you've taken time to
include in their color descriptions. As they do have a certain charm of their
own, and you're not going to get rich with selling them anyway, it wouldn't be
a bad idea to hang on to them. With a bit of work they can be made somewhat
presentable provided the sides' colors and lettering are still in good
shape. Most often, its crummy looking corner joints that detract from their
overall appearance. If you can match the colors and touch up any exposed
(bare) cardstock where the sides meet the ends, just that simple step makes a
vast improvement.

The varnishing of cardstock sides is something I notice being reported here
from time to time, as being found done to some of our members' recent
finds. This was a recommended and accepted practice of all manufacturers'
cardstock sides by modelers back in those early years, as there were articles
written in MR in the late 1930's and early '40's encouraging the modelers to do
this. While these cars still show up from time to time, fortunately for
collectors such as us this practice did not become too widespread.; it was said
to be a way to preserve the sides of these cars from excessive handling and
wearing of the printing (of both the sides themselves and the lettering).
Perhaps it dried clear when it was first applied and may have even been
considered an improvement (and possibly attractive?), but time sure made that
varnish yellow-up after a while. This topic could probably use it's own
heading (Subject Line) for easier access later, as I'm sure many collectors have
run across at least a few of these varnished cars over the years, even if
they didn't buy them. Later, Ray F.W. </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13269 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Jordan Spreader
Hi Jay

How many folks REALLY RUN their model Jordans? Obviously someone probably planned it as scenery. Possibly for hiding behind the engine house where trucks couldn't be seen? Seriously now, that was about the second toughest kit (to build) I ever designed--maybe it caused someone a mental breakdown? Has anyone else ever even tried to put out a Jordan KIT? (Yes, I know MDC had something called that and Walthers did a plastic modern day plastic version).

My first kit as a teen was a Strombecker Hercules tank (+ 50c Bettendorfs from AHC) and my second kit was a Red Ball wreck crane back when decent glues to build it were still years distant. (It still runs better than my long neglected layout). So maybe I overcame the fear of tough kits prematurely. Overcoming that fear does not equal skill-- but it does add to enjoyment of the hobby.

Boss Merle


PS On Card kits issue-- Howell Day sold the brass roof ribs as individual parts. Their presence does not automatically made a vintage car Red Ball.
Since MR had a continuing "Dollar Car" series I'm certain may folks launched into "scratch building" with Red Ball and other available parts in that era-- as well as restoration and kit bashing.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13270 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Jordan Spreader
I believe that Eric Bracher of Rio Grande Models has a kit for a Jordan
Spreader--Rio Grande #OU--which is a narrow-gauge unit, but can probably be
built as standard gauge if Eric does not offer it that way. gj

----- Original Message -----
From: "Model RailRoad Warehouse" <mrrwarehouse@...>
To: <the_plainsman@...>; <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:22 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Jordan Spreader


> Hi Jay
>
> How many folks REALLY RUN their model Jordans? Obviously someone probably
> planned it as scenery. Possibly for hiding behind the engine house where
> trucks couldn't be seen? Seriously now, that was about the second toughest
> kit (to build) I ever designed--maybe it caused someone a mental
> breakdown? Has anyone else ever even tried to put out a Jordan KIT? (Yes,
> I know MDC had something called that and Walthers did a plastic modern day
> plastic version).
>
> My first kit as a teen was a Strombecker Hercules tank (+ 50c Bettendorfs
> from AHC) and my second kit was a Red Ball wreck crane back when decent
> glues to build it were still years distant. (It still runs better than my
> long neglected layout). So maybe I overcame the fear of tough kits
> prematurely. Overcoming that fear does not equal skill-- but it does add
> to enjoyment of the hobby.
>
> Boss Merle
>
>
> PS On Card kits issue-- Howell Day sold the brass roof ribs as individual
> parts. Their presence does not automatically made a vintage car Red Ball.
> Since MR had a continuing "Dollar Car" series I'm certain may folks
> launched into "scratch building" with Red Ball and other available parts
> in that era-- as well as restoration and kit bashing.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2689 - Release Date: 02/15/10
07:35:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 13271 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Hi Ray F.W.,

Yes, you are correct that is what I posted, the box cars, reefers and tank cars list is only an excerpt from the master list in our group files and that what I remember to highlight in blue is the actual new information. I will make sure to note that when I post any other additions here, so our fellow members who may not be as familiar with a paticular manufacturer's models know that there is more to the list and where to find it!

Yes, it will be worth salvaging these 4 house cars, as I think can dig up enough used Varney ladders to replace the ones missing. I noticed the modeler also added the Tenite Varney end sills on 3 of the 4 as well, so will replace the missing ones, and two still have the Varney plastic dummy coupler, installed with tab glued on to hold them in the pocket - another long past "reccommended practice." Two also have what looke like Silver Streak diecast zamac, not white metal, bolsters and have plenty of those. will have to find suitable 1940's era trucks for them, but an easy and fun restoration project for a late winter night!

As to that once recommended varnishing practice, I cringe everytime I read it in the old magazines! I think the quality of varnish and ability of the modeler made a difference, though, as I have some that aren't too bad looking coated with it, such as a beautifully assembled Megow B&O Wagontop box car.

Who knows? Mayby that's why it lasted 60-70 years!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
> Hi W Jay W., I remember doing a spread sheet on StromBecker, with the help
> of Chuck H. filling it out and filing it, and I presume the info in black
> that you show is from that file (?), since you state that the NEW information
> (yours) is in blue. If so, I notice you left off the R-41 C&O Hopper car
> (and R-2 Caboose), although there was probably no reason for you to include
> them here. I just wanted to point out for the benefit of others that the
> freight car list you've posted was not quite complete.
>
> Many thanks for including all the details of the car sides -- that brings
> back many memories. I can appreciate that detail you've taken time to
> include in their color descriptions. As they do have a certain charm of their
> own, and you're not going to get rich with selling them anyway, it wouldn't be
> a bad idea to hang on to them. With a bit of work they can be made somewhat
> presentable provided the sides' colors and lettering are still in good
> shape. Most often, its crummy looking corner joints that detract from their
> overall appearance. If you can match the colors and touch up any exposed
> (bare) cardstock where the sides meet the ends, just that simple step makes a
> vast improvement.
>
> The varnishing of cardstock sides is something I notice being reported here
> from time to time, as being found done to some of our members' recent
> finds. This was a recommended and accepted practice of all manufacturers'
> cardstock sides by modelers back in those early years, as there were articles
> written in MR in the late 1930's and early '40's encouraging the modelers to do
> this. While these cars still show up from time to time, fortunately for
> collectors such as us this practice did not become too widespread.; it was said
> to be a way to preserve the sides of these cars from excessive handling and
> wearing of the printing (of both the sides themselves and the lettering).
> Perhaps it dried clear when it was first applied and may have even been
> considered an improvement (and possibly attractive?), but time sure made that
> varnish yellow-up after a while. This topic could probably use it's own
> heading (Subject Line) for easier access later, as I'm sure many collectors have
> run across at least a few of these varnished cars over the years, even if
> they didn't buy them. Later, Ray F.W. </HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13272 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Car...
Russ, Again -- NICE FIND -- on your digging out that part of Dave
Spanagel's card-sided car listing, as found in "The Reporting Mark" (H0SC&H - SIG --
NMRA). I can't seem to locate my copy of that issue, but all's I can say
is that you must have some good memory to have thought about that.

Denny, You have a fine model there, and deserve to be proud of it. To
further support Russ' finding that Dave Spanagel lists this S.F.R.D. 25611 car
as being an H.Owen car in his listing of card-sided cars, the 1942 Catalog
of The Model Railroad Shop (Dunellen, NJ) not only lists this H. Owen car as
their Kit No. K-204 (car sides only -- K-205), but they include a photo of
the car clearly showing the number 25611-- of course, produced right there as
an H.Owen kit. The 1937 -- 38 Catalog of The Model Railroad Shop also
lists this as one of THEIR H. Owen offerings, although it was not pictured in
this earlier catalog.

Incidentally, THE real US H0 pioneer you refer to as Alan Rice Lake is
instead actually named Alan Lake Rice (pen name -- "Eric LaNal"), who wrote many
articles in the early MR magazines. He noteably penned a great article
covering all the basics of model railroading entitled "Model Railroading as a
Hobby -- Here's How," which was included in The MEGOW Corporation's 1941
Catalog, and which served as a well-rounded primer for the beginning modeler.
Best regards, Ray Wetzel</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13273 From: jay matz Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Jordan Spreader
The Rio Grande Models Jordan Spreader can be built Narrow or Standard Gauge
Jay









>

>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2689 - Release Date: 02/15/10
07:35:00


Group: vintageHO Message: 13274 From: Mike Sloane Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Jordan Spreader
I started the MDC "3 in 1" kit but never finished it - it is still
sitting, half done, in its box.

I built two of the Walthers kits. I guess they are OK as the basic
elements of a Jordan, but they lack even the slightest attempt at the
miles of air hoses needed to work the various blades. It would be nice
to find some plans that would guide the modeler in routing the hoses.

I "back dated" one by cutting down the front blade, and I also modified
the front of both to take Kaydee coupler boxes and couplers, since all
the images I have ever seen show couplers on the front.

Unfortunately, the die work on the models was pretty sloppy, and I found
that the various hinges didn't work or broke easily, so I wasn't able to
use mine for regulating ballast profiles. :-)

Finishing the hoses is somewhere on my list of projects that I was
supposed to do after I retired (8 years ago), but somehow most of them
are still not done. One of these days, I will get a round tuit.

Mike

Model RailRoad Warehouse wrote:
>
>
> Hi Jay
>
> How many folks REALLY RUN their model Jordans? Obviously someone
> probably planned it as scenery. Possibly for hiding behind the engine
> house where trucks couldn't be seen? Seriously now, that was about the
> second toughest kit (to build) I ever designed--maybe it caused someone
> a mental breakdown? Has anyone else ever even tried to put out a Jordan
> KIT? (Yes, I know MDC had something called that and Walthers did a
> plastic modern day plastic version).
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13275 From: mrncartoon Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: WTB: Plans for Red Ball HO Scale Water Tank
From the HOYARDSALE group;

WTB: Plans for Red Ball HO Scale Water Tank
Posted by: "jkmscalerail" ntrak@... jkmscalerail
Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:20 pm ((PST))

I am looking for a copy of the plans for the Red Ball Models Water Tank. This kit came out in the 50's and was available thru the 60's.

I am attempting to rebuild one for a friend and am willing to pay for a good original copy, Xerox or PDF copy of the plans for this kit so I can rebuild it correctly.

I am willing to pay $5 for an original copy or very good quality Xerox copy, or $3 for an e-mailed PDF file copy.

Thanks,

John Marshall

8211 Moller Ranch Drive

Pleasanton, CA 94588

[ntrak@...]
Group: vintageHO Message: 13276 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s

Hi Jay,

Please double check the R12’s number as we have 53049 in the list.  I just want to be sure, thanks.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jay Wanczyk
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:45 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] StromBecker Car Road #'s

 

 

Ray F.W.,  Forgot to highlight the new cars numbers as new, in blue, for the ATSF and IC Reefers in previous message!  W. Jay W.

 


From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 10:41:54 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] StromBecker Car Road #'s

 

Hi Ray F.W,

 

Here are the road numbers (in blue) for the six StromBecker cars I have, new information to the list is highlighted in blue; the color highlighted in yellow on the "Shell" tank car is at varience with my sample, which had been varnished at one point, but to me definitely a shade of light green:

 

Box Car    
R-10 NYC, Pacemaker Red & Grey 
R-11 B&O, Sentinel Silver & Blue  "BALTIMORE & OHIO 466090" (with yellow and black herald, blue lettering)
R-12 MKT, "KATY"  M-K-T 63049 double doors Yellow (black lettering)

Reefer 
R-21 SP-UP Pacific Fruit Express Orange 
R-22 AT&SF, "Chief" A.T.S.F. 35054   Orange ( black lettering, black & white herald; " Santa Fe all the way" and map on one side, "Route of the Chief...All Pullman Chicago- Los Angeles Streamliner" on other side) 
R-23 IC  50166 Yellow (green lettering and herald) 

Tank Car    
R-31 Shell Chemical    S.C.M.X 862  Yellow (lt. green, red SHELL CHEMICALS" black lettering)
R-32 Hercules Powder  H.P.C.X. 8000 (red w/ black weld lines, white lettering)
R-33 Heinz Vinegar Yellow 


Think I will pull them from the "sell" carton and fix them up, most of these box cars and reefers have Varney plastic ladders upgrades.

 

W. Jay W.

 

 


From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 6:32:05 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker cars

 

Hi Wally, Not really sure, but I may have a few StromBecker models buried
somewhere in the attic; if so, I haven't seen them for years (decades, and
many of them). They were my very first H0 models that I was building in the
late 1940's. I'm not sure if I ever had all of them, but if not, I had most
of them I do know that I never had the Streamliners though, especially not
the City of SF or the B&O, as $2.79 was a hugh amount of money back then for
an 8 or 9 year old kid. Even got in to building the large "Historic"
models, and they could be bought in increments with getting the engine first and
then adding the cars later, allow you to budget for them.

My very first of what I'd call a "scale H0" model, as recognized from being
manufactured by a scale model company, was a Varney ERIE box car. Soon
after, a school chum of mine gave me a Comet T&P box car which I built up
fairly presentable, although I didn't like the idea that it came without trucks.
I guess Varney spoiled me < G >. I never converted the StromBeckers
though, from their wooden trucks and soon put them aside. I sure enjoyed
building them though. Ray F.W.</HTML>

 

 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13277 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Strombecker cars

I have put Central Valley trucks and Kadees on my NYC pacemaker box and the Santa Fe Reefer.  They are light, but I keep them at the back of the train.  I posted photos a long while ago.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Wally Weart
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 10:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Strombecker cars

 

 

Does anyone on the list have any Strombercker cars? These were my first models equipped with trucks and Mantua loop couplers pulled by a Globe diesel or Varney dockside. I still have an UP coach, a caboose and a refrigerator car.

Thanks

Wally

Group: vintageHO Message: 13278 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Hi Chuck,
Just checked again and it is clearly a "6"; M-K-T 63049. Checked the other StromBecker #'s again and they are OK too.
W Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jay,
>
> Please double check the R12's number as we have 53049 in the list. I just
> want to be sure, thanks.
>
>
>
> Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
> http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Jay Wanczyk
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:45 AM
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] StromBecker Car Road #'s
>
>
>
>
>
> Ray F.W., Forgot to highlight the new cars numbers as new, in blue, for the
> ATSF and IC Reefers in previous message! W. Jay W.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 10:41:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] StromBecker Car Road #'s
>
>
>
> Hi Ray F.W,
>
>
>
> Here are the road numbers (in blue) for the six StromBecker cars I have, new
> information to the list is highlighted in blue; the color highlighted in
> yellow on the "Shell" tank car is at varience with my sample, which had been
> varnished at one point, but to me definitely a shade of light green:
>
>
>
> Box Car
> R-10 NYC, Pacemaker Red & Grey
> R-11 B&O, Sentinel Silver & Blue "BALTIMORE & OHIO 466090" (with yellow and
> black herald, blue lettering)
> R-12 MKT, "KATY" M-K-T 63049 double doors Yellow (black lettering)
>
> Reefer
> R-21 SP-UP Pacific Fruit Express Orange
> R-22 AT&SF, "Chief" A.T.S.F. 35054 Orange ( black lettering, black & white
> herald; "Santa Fe all the way" and map on one side, "Route of the
> Chief...All Pullman Chicago-Los Angeles Streamliner" on other side)
> R-23 IC 50166 Yellow (green lettering and herald)
>
> Tank Car
> R-31 Shell Chemical S.C.M.X 862 Yellow (lt. green, red SHELL CHEMICALS"
> black lettering)
> R-32 Hercules Powder H.P.C.X. 8000 (red w/ black weld lines, white
> lettering)
> R-33 Heinz Vinegar Yellow
>
>
> Think I will pull them from the "sell" carton and fix them up, most of these
> box cars and reefers have Varney plastic ladders upgrades.
>
>
>
> W. Jay W.
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com <http://ps.com/>
> Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 6:32:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker cars
>
>
>
> Hi Wally, Not really sure, but I may have a few StromBecker models buried
> somewhere in the attic; if so, I haven't seen them for years (decades, and
> many of them). They were my very first H0 models that I was building in the
> late 1940's. I'm not sure if I ever had all of them, but if not, I had most
> of them I do know that I never had the Streamliners though, especially not
> the City of SF or the B&O, as $2.79 was a hugh amount of money back then for
>
> an 8 or 9 year old kid. Even got in to building the large "Historic"
> models, and they could be bought in increments with getting the engine first
> and
> then adding the cars later, allow you to budget for them.
>
> My very first of what I'd call a "scale H0" model, as recognized from being
> manufactured by a scale model company, was a Varney ERIE box car. Soon
> after, a school chum of mine gave me a Comet T&P box car which I built up
> fairly presentable, although I didn't like the idea that it came without
> trucks.
> I guess Varney spoiled me < G >. I never converted the StromBeckers
> though, from their wooden trucks and soon put them aside. I sure enjoyed
> building them though. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13279 From: rayzef Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Strombecker cars
Hi Wally
I have spare R212 B&O and R203 UP City of SF coaches and a R212 B&O E8B unit. Would like an A unit if anybody has a spare to swap.
Thanks
Ray Z


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wally Weart <dim01521@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone on the list have any Strombercker cars? These were my
> first models equipped with trucks and Mantua loop couplers pulled by
> a Globe diesel or Varney dockside. I still have an UP coach, a
> caboose and a refrigerator car.
>
> Thanks
>
> Wally
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13280 From: Dr. Lester D. Morris Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
R12 is 63049. I have a pretty complete set of unbuilt kits.   Les Morris


Feb 15, 2010 10:03:23 PM, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
 

Hi Jay,

Please double check the R12’s number as we have 53049 in the list.  I just want to be sure, thanks.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Wanczyk
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:45 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] StromBecker Car Road #'s

 

 

Ray F.W.,  Forgot to highlight the new cars numbers as new, in blue, for the ATSF and IC Reefers in previous message!  W. Jay W.

 


From: Jay Wanczyk
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 10:41:54 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] StromBecker Car Road #'s

 

Hi Ray F.W,

 

Here are the road numbers (in blue) for the six StromBecker cars I have, new information to the list is highlighted in blue; the color highlighted in yellow on the "Shell" tank car is at varience with my sample, which had been varnished at one point, but to me definitely a shade of light green:

 

Box Car    
R-10 NYC, Pacemaker Red & Grey 
R-11 B&O, Sentinel Silver & Blue  "BALTIMORE & OHIO 466090" (with yellow and black herald, blue lettering)
R-12 MKT, "KATY"  M-K-T 63049 double doors Yellow (black lettering)

Reefer 
R-21 SP-UP Pacific Fruit Express Orange 
R-22 AT&SF, "Chief" A.T.S.F. 35054  Orange ( black lettering, black & white herald; "Santa Fe all the way" and map on one side, "Route of the Chief...All Pullman Chicago-Los Angeles Streamliner" on other side) 
R-23 IC  50166 Yellow (green lettering and herald) 

Tank Car    
R-31 Shell Chemical    S.C.M.X 862  Yellow (lt. green, red SHELL CHEMICALS" black lettering)
R-32 Hercules Powder  H.P.C.X. 8000 (red w/ black weld lines, white lettering)
R-33 Heinz Vinegar Yellow 


Think I will pull them from the "sell" carton and fix them up, most of these box cars and reefers have Varney plastic ladders upgrades.

 

W. Jay W.

 

 


From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com"
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Mon, February 15, 2010 6:32:05 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strombecker cars

 

Hi Wally, Not really sure, but I may have a few StromBecker models buried
somewhere in the attic; if so, I haven't seen them for years (decades, and
many of them). They were my very first H0 models that I was building in the
late 1940's. I'm not sure if I ever had all of them, but if not, I had most
of them I do know that I never had the Streamliners though, especially not
the City of SF or the B&O, as $2.79 was a hugh amount of money back then for
an 8 or 9 year old kid. Even got in to building the large "Historic"
models, and they could be bought in increments with getting the engine first and
then adding the cars later, allow you to budget for them.

My very first of what I'd call a "scale H0" model, as recognized from being
manufactured by a scale model company, was a Varney ERIE box car. Soon
after, a school chum of mine gave me a Comet T&P box car which I built up
fairly presentable, although I didn't like the idea that it came without trucks.
I guess Varney spoiled me < G >. I never converted the StromBeckers
though, from their wooden trucks and soon put them aside. I sure enjoyed
building them though. Ray F.W.

 

 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13281 From: Garry Spear Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Laconia Kits
Continuing my selling vintage car and kits here is a Laconia NYC
Pullman combine in OB.

This is a new picture hosting service to me. Comments welcome.

BOX END
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2010-2/1353691/S897a.jpg

BOX & Instructions
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2010-2/1353691/S897b.jpg

KIT DETAIL PARTS
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2010-2/1353691/S897c.jpg

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 13282 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s
Chuck, Looks like we need to change the StromBecker R-12 M.K.T. to 63049.
I must have made a typo error when posting that list for the spreadsheet.
Could you dig into the files and make that correction? Thanks. Ray F.W.
</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13283 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Car...
Ray Wetzel writes-
Incidentally, THE real US H0 pioneer you refer to as Alan Rice Lake is 
instead actually named Alan Lake Rice (pen name -- "Eric LaNal"), who wrote many 
articles in the early MR magazines. 

Yes, thank you.  I had the names interposed, and I have been long aware of Lake's "nom de plume".  I used to read and absorb everything he -Rice/LaNal- wrote, 

I am confused somewhat about the H. Owen kits:  from what I am surmising, they were apparently produced by Howell Day for Rice, or perhaps it was some sort of a joint venture. Is that what others surmise? 

Indulging my interest, I placed side-by-side three finished ATSF wood ice reefer models:  Comet #182  (SFRD 16147), postwar Varney R-2 (SFRD 16142), and H.Owen SFRD 25011.  Of the three the H.Owen has the finest and most sophisticated embossing, and the printing is the equal of Varney's high quality. The Comet is behind the others in quality of paper and printing all around, but it is still a pretty good model, and certainly not a caricature or cartoon.

A note on ATSF SFRD paint patterns:  

1)  From 1929 on, all ATSF reefers had black roofs.
2)  Prior to 1939 or so  ATSF reefers had yellow/orange ends AND  sides.
3) After 1939, ATSF reefers had black ends AND roofs.
4) Slogans or maps were not applied until after January 1940, and even then only when a particular car came in for scheduled repainting. 

Using this data:  

a) The H. Owen is model is dead-on correct with yellow ends and sides, and a black roof. I am impressed anew.
b) The Varney model  has painted boxcar red ends and roof- incorrect of course- , but I do not know what exactly the directions in the kit box actually told the kit builder to do. 
c) The Comet model has the printed yellow sides and ends of a pre-1939  car, but an incorrect printed boxcar-red roof (I suspect that this roof with its incorrect color was included in the kit as an expedient), inasmuch as it was already available from another kit production. A further anachronism is that  a car still with yellow ends would not have had  sides with  SCOUT -or any other slogans inasmuch as at which time after 1939 when the car would have had the slogans applied,   the ends would have been painted black as a part of the total repainting process.

The more I look into this, the more I am becoming convinced that the prewar original Varney R-2 ATSF reefer had to be a different animal than the postwar production, although sharing the same car number. "A new hunt".

Denny









Group: vintageHO Message: 13284 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Car...
Denny A. (and All),

I found your comment "Of the three the H.Owen has the finest
and most sophisticated embossing, and the printing is the equal of
Varney's high quality." very interesting. I can supply a little background that may contribute to understanding why Howell Day's early products had that high quality. His father was a professional printer (much like M. Dale Newton, founder of Red Ball) and that also is likely why Day's shop during the late 1930's and early 1940's had such high quality catalogs, too. When his father passed on in the mid? 1960's, Day wrote in a flier that his printer father had been an important part of his business, involved with all printing matters. So with Day, there was clearly an "in-house" understanding of quality printing, embossing and the paper products themselves.

W. Jay W.





--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
>
> Ray Wetzel writes-
> > Incidentally, THE real US H0 pioneer you refer to as Alan Rice Lake is
> > instead actually named Alan Lake Rice (pen name -- "Eric LaNal"),
> > who wrote many
> > articles in the early MR magazines.
>
>
> Yes, thank you. I had the names interposed, and I have been long
> aware of Lake's "nom de plume". I used to read and absorb everything
> he -Rice/LaNal- wrote,
>
> I am confused somewhat about the H. Owen kits: from what I am
> surmising, they were apparently produced by Howell Day for Rice, or
> perhaps it was some sort of a joint venture. Is that what others
> surmise?
>
> Indulging my interest, I placed side-by-side three finished ATSF wood
> ice reefer models: Comet #182 (SFRD 16147), postwar Varney R-2 (SFRD
> 16142), and H.Owen SFRD 25011. Of the three the H.Owen has the finest
> and most sophisticated embossing, and the printing is the equal of
> Varney's high quality. The Comet is behind the others in quality of
> paper and printing all around, but it is still a pretty good model,
> and certainly not a caricature or cartoon.
>
> A note on ATSF SFRD paint patterns:
>
> 1) From 1929 on, all ATSF reefers had black roofs.
> 2) Prior to 1939 or so ATSF reefers had yellow/orange ends AND sides.
> 3) After 1939, ATSF reefers had black ends AND roofs.
> 4) Slogans or maps were not applied until after January 1940, and even
> then only when a particular car came in for scheduled repainting.
>
> Using this data:
>
> a) The H. Owen is model is dead-on correct with yellow ends and sides,
> and a black roof. I am impressed anew.
> b) The Varney model has painted boxcar red ends and roof- incorrect
> of course- , but I do not know what exactly the directions in the kit
> box actually told the kit builder to do.
> c) The Comet model has the printed yellow sides and ends of a
> pre-1939 car, but an incorrect printed boxcar-red roof (I suspect
> that this roof with its incorrect color was included in the kit as an
> expedient), inasmuch as it was already available from another kit
> production. A further anachronism is that a car still with yellow
> ends would not have had sides with SCOUT -or any other slogans
> inasmuch as at which time after 1939 when the car would have had the
> slogans applied, the ends would have been painted black as a part of
> the total repainting process.
>
> The more I look into this, the more I am becoming convinced that the
> prewar original Varney R-2 ATSF reefer had to be a different animal
> than the postwar production, although sharing the same car number. "A
> new hunt".
>
> Denny
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13285 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Card sides
 
I have this card side reefer DSDX 935 that has two different sides, one side says REFRIGERATOR, the other has a MILW herald.  The detailing is very basic with whatg looks like a dress snap brake wheel and stamped ladders.  I am not sure if this is a parts built or from a kit.
Roger Aultman
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13286 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: Card sides
Looks good....but up close, looks hand-lettered.
And, it was an old trick to have different sides....so when the train turned and came back it was a totally different beastie!
Dave



> I have this card side reefer DSDX 935 that has two different sides, one side says REFRIGERATOR, the other has a MILW herald. The detailing is very basic with whatg looks like a dress snap brake wheel and stamped ladders. I am not sure if this is a parts built or from a kit.
> Roger Aultman
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13287 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: Laconia Kits

Garry,

The pictures came out great, clear and large.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Garry Spear
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:48 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Laconia Kits

 

 

Continuing my selling vintage car and kits here is a Laconia NYC
Pullman combine in OB.

This is a new picture hosting service to me. Comments welcome.

BOX END
http://img.villagep hotos.com/ p/2010-2/ 1353691/S897a. jpg

BOX & Instructions
http://img.villagep hotos.com/ p/2010-2/ 1353691/S897b. jpg

KIT DETAIL PARTS
http://img.villagep hotos.com/ p/2010-2/ 1353691/S897c. jpg

Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO Message: 13288 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: StromBecker Car Road #'s

Thanks all, have update my file and will update the site shortly.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Dr. Lester D. Morris
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:38 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: RE: [vintageHO] StromBecker Car Road #'s

 

 

R12 is 63049. I have a pretty complete set of unbuilt kits.   Les Morris


Feb 15, 2010 10:03:23 PM, vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com wrote:

 

Hi Jay,

Please double check the R12’s number as we have 53049 in the list.  I just want to be sure, thanks.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13289 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
group.

File : /V List Strombecker cars.xls
Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
Description : List of Strombecker items

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Strombecker%20cars.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13290 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
group.

File : /V List Mantua cars.xls
Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
Description : List of Mantua cars

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Mantua%20cars.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13291 From: Chris B Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update

 I have followed recent group activity with interest, but since my knowledge of vintage printed car sides is limited to what I learn here, and what I remember from the '42 and '42 bound volume Model Railroaders I grew up drooling over in the fifties while I painted over AF boxcars with hershey bars on them...

I remember dozens of wartime mfgr ads that explained what they'd have for Joe when he came back after Victory, and how in the meantime all they have some car sides and some odds and ends... The Nickel Plate Rd comics and the Manhattan Beach 10,000 spikes series shaped my whole view of that era in model railroading, and they never let go,

so I'm finally building my own postwar vintage HO layout just to make all those boyhood dreams come to life...

I have abeen making steady progress on a 4 level vintage HO layout of the W&OD Rosslyn Branch,
so I wanted to post an update, since I'm finally finished benchwork and about to start laying down some track and hope to see something run this weekend.

As I've written before, the plan is unusual, in that I don't plan to build any traditional model railroad scenery, but instead to just build finished wooden shelf benchwork around three sides of the family room, and lay a model of the Rosslyn branch using all vintage wooden roadbed track (truscale and tenshodo).

I've decided to run all metal unpainted vintage engines from the 40s-60s era that I'm modeling, and try and duplicate the entire W&OD roster from that time. That means all metal models (Cary/Hobbytown S-2s; MEW and NJ INTL 44 tonners; IVERS body 70 tonners; Suydam steeple cabs and interurbans; Hallmark 65 ton Whitcomb war surplus diesels; oddball gas electrics from the NYC and the GM&O bought during the war, and someday I get to scratchbuild some truly wack job homemade box cabs with portholes, and two experimental early Budd cars bought from the PRR in 1942.)

All of thetrolleys and gas electrics will be dodging the freight switchers pulling all metal Varney, Gilbert, Mantua, Penn Line, (etc) gondolas, hoppers, and flats will be running up and down authentic 4% grades between finished wooden shelves representing the 450 ft of elevation the branch climbed in 4.5 miles  to Bluemont Jct. , starting from Rosslyn yard just across the Potomac from Georgetown in DC.  In 1943 almost a hundred one car or short freight trains passed through Bluemont Jct every day.

I 've laid out fairly faithful trackage from original plans for Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct, and hope to eventually add modified Suydam sheet metal models of the very plain rr structures at thoseof  two locations, all of this intended to let me someday simulate W&OD operation from that time.  The look is more like a running display of antique models than a traditional model railroad. (photos  below)


I hope to run the first trains on bare track from Rosslyn on the bottom level (32" H) up past Bluemont Jct (52"H) to East Falls Church (62"H) by late spring.

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13292 From: jim heckard Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update [7 Attachments]
Chris B,
 
           Go for it. Remember it's YOUR layout.Your bench work really looks good. Keep posting as you progress.
 
                                               Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:24 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] vintage layout progress update [7 Attachments]

 


 I have followed recent group activity with interest, but since my knowledge of vintage printed car sides is limited to what I learn here, and what I remember from the '42 and '42 bound volume Model Railroaders I grew up drooling over in the fifties while I painted over AF boxcars with hershey bars on them...

I remember dozens of wartime mfgr ads that explained what they'd have for Joe when he came back after Victory, and how in the meantime all they have some car sides and some odds and ends... The Nickel Plate Rd comics and the Manhattan Beach 10,000 spikes series shaped my whole view of that era in model railroading, and they never let go,

so I'm finally building my own postwar vintage HO layout just to make all those boyhood dreams come to life...

I have abeen making steady progress on a 4 level vintage HO layout of the W&OD Rosslyn Branch,
so I wanted to post an update, since I'm finally finished benchwork and about to start laying down some track and hope to see something run this weekend.

As I've written before, the plan is unusual, in that I don't plan to build any traditional model railroad scenery, but instead to just build finished wooden shelf benchwork around three sides of the family room, and lay a model of the Rosslyn branch using all vintage wooden roadbed track (truscale and tenshodo).

I've decided to run all metal unpainted vintage engines from the 40s-60s era that I'm modeling, and try and duplicate the entire W&OD roster from that time. That means all metal models (Cary/Hobbytown S-2s; MEW and NJ INTL 44 tonners; IVERS body 70 tonners; Suydam steeple cabs and interurbans; Hallmark 65 ton Whitcomb war surplus diesels; oddball gas electrics from the NYC and the GM&O bought during the war, and someday I get to scratchbuild some truly wack job homemade box cabs with portholes, and two experimental early Budd cars bought from the PRR in 1942.)

All of thetrolleys and gas electrics will be dodging the freight switchers pulling all metal Varney, Gilbert, Mantua, Penn Line, (etc) gondolas, hoppers, and flats will be running up and down authentic 4% grades between finished wooden shelves representing the 450 ft of elevation the branch climbed in 4.5 miles  to Bluemont Jct. , starting from Rosslyn yard just across the Potomac from Georgetown in DC.  In 1943 almost a hundred one car or short freight trains passed through Bluemont Jct every day.

I 've laid out fairly faithful trackage from original plans for Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct, and hope to eventually add modified Suydam sheet metal models of the very plain rr structures at thoseof  two locations, all of this intended to let me someday simulate W&OD operation from that time.  The look is more like a running display of antique models than a traditional model railroad. (photos  below)


I hope to run the first trains on bare track from Rosslyn on the bottom level (32" H) up past Bluemont Jct (52"H) to East Falls Church (62"H) by late spring.

Group: vintageHO Message: 13293 From: Chris B Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
Thanks Jim, it's nearly 11 now, but I have permission from the mgmt to run the screw gun till 1130, so I'm going to get back to work,
but about those picures of the benchwork. 

It looks all crude now, but those big fat vertical legs holding up the shelves of the benchwork on the rt side are temporary, when they come off I think it will look much better.

 I went way overboard with the goal of making all the shelves hanging perpendicular off the walls without any visible legs or support brackets in the finished layout room, and it looks like it's going to work out.

.  The shelves in the laundry area and the shelves on the rt side of the room are both supported by the same horizontal double 2x4 beams that pass through the wall, and on the laundry side they're all tied together and to the house like an external porch or deck,

so the beams that stick through to the family room are supported by the legs in the laundry area nd by the load-bearing wall, so those shelves in the family room are like the cantilevered part of a deck that sticks out past the supporting posts...

it will all make sense visually when I finish the laundry area section and really bolt all that structure  to the concrete floor and to the steel beam above it.  then I get to rip out those ugly temporary post legs in front of the levels in the family room and they will just hang off the wall with nothing to spoil the view.

back to work!

thanks for the moral support, this is way more work than I ever imagined it would be!

Chris B.



From: jim kard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 10:34:00 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] vintage layout progress update

 

Chris B,
 
           Go for it. Remember it's YOUR layout.Your bench work really looks good. Keep posting as you progress.
                                               Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:24 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] vintage layout progress update [7 Attachments]

 


 I have followed recent group activity with interest, but since my knowledge of vintage printed car sides is limited to what I learn here, and what I remember from the '42 and '42 bound volume Model Railroaders I grew up drooling over in the fifties while I painted over AF boxcars with hershey bars on them...

I remember dozens of wartime mfgr ads that explained what they'd have for Joe when he came back after Victory, and how in the meantime all they have some car sides and some odds and ends... The Nickel Plate Rd comics and the Manhattan Beach 10,000 spikes series shaped my whole view of that era in model railroading, and they never let go,

so I'm finally building my own postwar vintage HO layout just to make all those boyhood dreams come to life...

I have abeen making steady progress on a 4 level vintage HO layout of the W&OD Rosslyn Branch,
so I wanted to post an update, since I'm finally finished benchwork and about to start laying down some track and hope to see something run this weekend.

As I've written before, the plan is unusual, in that I don't plan to build any traditional model railroad scenery, but instead to just build finished wooden shelf benchwork around three sides of the family room, and lay a model of the Rosslyn branch using all vintage wooden roadbed track (truscale and tenshodo).

I've decided to run all metal unpainted vintage engines from the 40s-60s era that I'm modeling, and try and duplicate the entire W&OD roster from that time. That means all metal models (Cary/Hobbytown S-2s; MEW and NJ INTL 44 tonners; IVERS body 70 tonners; Suydam steeple cabs and interurbans; Hallmark 65 ton Whitcomb war surplus diesels; oddball gas electrics from the NYC and the GM&O bought during the war, and someday I get to scratchbuild some truly wack job homemade box cabs with portholes, and two experimental early Budd cars bought from the PRR in 1942.)

All of thetrolleys and gas electrics will be dodging the freight switchers pulling all metal Varney, Gilbert, Mantua, Penn Line, (etc) gondolas, hoppers, and flats will be running up and down authentic 4% grades between finished wooden shelves representing the 450 ft of elevation the branch climbed in 4.5 miles  to Bluemont Jct. , starting from Rosslyn yard just across the Potomac from Georgetown in DC.  In 1943 almost a hundred one car or short freight trains passed through Bluemont Jct every day.

I 've laid out fairly faithful trackage from original plans for Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct, and hope to eventually add modified Suydam sheet metal models of the very plain rr structures at thoseof  two locations, all of this intended to let me someday simulate W&OD operation from that time.  The look is more like a running display of antique models than a traditional model railroad. (photos  below)


I hope to run the first trains on bare track from Rosslyn on the bottom level (32" H) up past Bluemont Jct (52"H) to East Falls Church (62"H) by late spring.


Group: vintageHO Message: 13294 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Greater Houston Train Show
The Greater Houston Train Show, put on annually by the San Jacinto
Model Railroad Club, will be held this Saturday at Stafford Center,
southwest of downtown Houston. The show's web site with additional
information can be found here:
http://sanjac.leoslair.com/show.htm

--

Rick Jones

Those who get too big for their britches will be exposed in the
end.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13295 From: Askerberg Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
Now that's really neat ("neat" is 50s jargon for "cool").. I've
noticed a tad of slippage though on authenticity. We didn't have CAD
back then, and I seem to remember painful blisters on the palm of my
hand from hand-screwing dozens, if not hundreds of # 8x1/4 wood
screws to hold the bench work together - no power drivers then. Just
kidding. I look forward to future progress photos.

Al Askerberg
Group: vintageHO Message: 13296 From: Denny Anspach Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Card sides
They looks pretty much like scratch built sides.

Although not impossible, the DSDX reporting mark was an unusual one
for the Milwaukee Road until very late in the game (the "complex"
CMStP&P herald on the car was obsolete after 1952), when the DSDX
marks were applied to former URTX reefers that were to be assigned
almost exclusively to load beer from Milwaukee city's ubiquitous
breweries.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento
Group: vintageHO Message: 13297 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: HOwen
From personal conversations with Howell Day, my impression was that HOwen was HIS venture. Period. He had made and marketed O scale kits from his pioneering train shop in Dunellen for some time and was climbing aboard the "Eric LaNal" HOwagon. Trackage was an early emphasis of his that he felt significant. He brought out an HOwen PRR K4 locomotive and pictured six complete engines in the ad "because everyone's ads were showing one piece and not getting any more produced. I wanted people to know they really existed."

Some involvement by Rice is certainly not out of the question. Virtually every early train manufacturer relied heavily on other model enthusiasts who had particular skills. Design and tooling were frequently done by friends as an "adjunct hobby" and were reasonably economical as a result. Parts were supplied one another. Sources of supply were not closely guarded proprietary secrets. Most of the California group were advertised by one of their midst being an ad agency. Manufacturers in midwest and northeast formed loose or formal groups. Co operation between manufacturers was still commonplace during the 1960s when I started. We knew [and respected] what [most] others were planning/tooling and supplied parts (even advice) to one another. There was informal "policing" of the trade for rip offs (in the 70s it was rubber mold copies of parts). I realize all that might be quite unbelievable in the climate change we see today.

Merle Rice
Model RR Warehouse
Group: vintageHO Message: 13298 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: HOwen
Model RailRoad Warehouse wrote:
> Cooperation between manufacturers was still commonplace
> during the 1960s when I started. We knew [and respected] what [most]
> others were planning/tooling and supplied parts (even advice) to one
> another. There was informal "policing" of the trade for rip offs (in
> the 70s it was rubber mold copies of parts). I realize all that
> might be quite unbelievable in the climate change we see today.

There still seems to be some cooperation going on between kit
manufacturers. We see Campbell shingles, Grant Line windows, and parts
from other manufacturers being included in kits made by other companies.

--

Rick Jones

If someone believes strongly in reincarnation why don't they
make out their will to themself?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13299 From: Roger Aultman Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
I remember a Kalmbach pictureof Linn Westcott using a brace and bit to drill holes for benchwork, probably before L girder.   Roger Aultman
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Askerberg
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:18 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:vintage layout progress update

 

Now that's really neat ("neat" is 50s jargon for "cool").. I've
noticed a tad of slippage though on authenticity. We didn't have CAD
back then, and I seem to remember painful blisters on the palm of my
hand from hand-screwing dozens, if not hundreds of # 8x1/4 wood
screws to hold the bench work together - no power drivers then. Just
kidding. I look forward to future progress photos.

Al Askerberg

Group: vintageHO Message: 13300 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
From: Askerberg
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:18 AM
Su.bject: [vintageHO] Re:vintage layout progress update



Now that's really neat ("neat" is 50s jargon for "cool").. I've
noticed a tad of slippage though on authenticity. We didn't have CAD
back then, and I seem to remember painful blisters on the palm of my
hand from hand-screwing dozens, if not hundreds of # 8x1/4 wood
screws to hold the bench work together - no power drivers then. Just
kidding. I look forward to future progress photos.

Al Askerberg

============================================================================================

You mean you didn't have a Yankee screwdriver?

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
Group: vintageHO Message: 13301 From: John H Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Askerberg
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:18 AM
> Su.bject: [vintageHO] Re:vintage layout progress update
>
>
>
> Now that's really neat ("neat" is 50s jargon for "cool").. I've
> noticed a tad of slippage though on authenticity. We didn't have CAD
> back then, and I seem to remember painful blisters on the palm of my
> hand from hand-screwing dozens, if not hundreds of # 8x1/4 wood
> screws to hold the bench work together - no power drivers then. Just
> kidding. I look forward to future progress photos.
>
> Al Askerberg
>
> ============================================================================================
>
> You mean you didn't have a Yankee screwdriver?
>
> Don
>
He maybe didn't have a Yankee screwdfriver but he had a cordless one.

John Hagen
Group: vintageHO Message: 13302 From: bob d Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
I'm trying to figger out how the thing stays together with 1/4" screws....

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have followed recent group activity with interest, but since my knowledge of vintage printed car sides is limited to what I learn here, and what I remember from the '42 and '42 bound volume Model Railroaders I grew up drooling over in the fifties while I painted over AF boxcars with hershey bars on them...
>
> I remember dozens of wartime mfgr ads that explained what they'd have for Joe when he came back after Victory, and how in the meantime all they have some car sides and some odds and ends... The Nickel Plate Rd comics and the Manhattan Beach 10,000 spikes series shaped my whole view of that era in model railroading, and they never let go,
>
> so I'm finally building my own postwar vintage HO layout just to make all those boyhood dreams come to life...
>
> I have abeen making steady progress on a 4 level vintage HO layout of the W&OD Rosslyn
> Branch, so I wanted to post an update, since I'm finally finished benchwork and about to start laying down some track and hope to see something run this weekend.
>
> As I've written before, the plan is unusual, in that I don't plan to build any traditional model railroad scenery, but instead to just build finished wooden shelf benchwork around three sides of the family room, and lay a model of the Rosslyn branch using all vintage wooden roadbed track (truscale and tenshodo).
>
> I've decided to run all metal unpainted vintage engines from the 40s-60s era that I'm modeling, and try and duplicate the entire W&OD roster from that time. That means all metal models (Cary/Hobbytown S-2s; MEW and NJ INTL 44 tonners; IVERS body 70 tonners; Suydam steeple cabs and interurbans; Hallmark 65 ton Whitcomb war surplus diesels; oddball gas electrics from the NYC and the GM&O bought during the war, and someday I get to scratchbuild some truly wack job homemade box cabs with portholes, and two experimental early Budd cars bought from the PRR in 1942.)
>
> All of thetrolleys and gas electrics will be dodging the freight switchers pulling all metal Varney, Gilbert, Mantua, Penn Line, (etc) gondolas, hoppers, and flats will be running up and down authentic 4% grades between finished wooden shelves representing the 450 ft of elevation the branch climbed in 4.5 miles to Bluemont Jct. , starting from Rosslyn yard just across the Potomac from Georgetown in DC. In 1943 almost a hundred one car or short freight trains passed through Bluemont Jct every day.
>
> I 've laid out fairly faithful trackage from original plans for Rosslyn and Bluemont Jct, and hope to eventually add modified Suydam sheet metal models of the very plain rr structures at thoseof two locations, all of this intended to let me someday simulate W&OD operation from that time. The look is more like a running display of antique models than a traditional model railroad. (photos below)
>
> I hope to run the first trains on bare track from
> Rosslyn on the bottom level (32" H) up past Bluemont Jct (52"H) to East Falls Church (62"H) by late spring.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13303 From: sottguy Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
Actually, my dad did have a Yankee screwdriver, but I didn't have the muscle to use it. Fortunately, we had enough soap so I could lubricate the screws. I seem to have lost Dad's Yankee screwdriver, but for someone seeking absolute authenticity, I have quite a supply of screws left over. For years I've tied to sell them at swap meets for $1. Now I'm trying to give 'em away. Next I'll have to pay someone.

Al Askerberg

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Askerberg
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:18 AM
> > Su.bject: [vintageHO] Re:vintage layout progress update
> >
> >
> >
> > Now that's really neat ("neat" is 50s jargon for "cool").. I've
> > noticed a tad of slippage though on authenticity. We didn't have CAD
> > back then, and I seem to remember painful blisters on the palm of my
> > hand from hand-screwing dozens, if not hundreds of # 8x1/4 wood
> > screws to hold the bench work together - no power drivers then. Just
> > kidding. I look forward to future progress photos.
> >
> > Al Askerberg
> >
> > ============================================================================================
> >
> > You mean you didn't have a Yankee screwdriver?
> >
> > Don
> >
> He maybe didn't have a Yankee screwdfriver but he had a cordless one.
>
> John Hagen
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13304 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
I actually have a Yankee Screwdriver here. Someone at a Boy Scout camp I work at during weekends in the summer, was going to throw it away after finding it in the maintenance barn, but I asked for it instead.

Interesting little device. Fun to play with for a while!

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Wed, 2/17/10, sottguy <aiberg@...> wrote:

From: sottguy <aiberg@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re:vintage layout progress update
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 8:35 PM

 

Actually, my dad did have a Yankee screwdriver, but I didn't have the muscle to use it. Fortunately, we had enough soap so I could lubricate the screws. I seem to have lost Dad's Yankee screwdriver, but for someone seeking absolute authenticity, I have quite a supply of screws left over. For years I've tied to sell them at swap meets for $1. Now I'm trying to give 'em away. Next I'll have to pay someone.

Al Askerberg

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "John H" <sprinthag@. ..> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ > wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Askerberg
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:18 AM
> > Su.bject: [vintageHO] Re:vintage layout progress update
> >
> >
> >
> > Now that's really neat ("neat" is 50s jargon for "cool").. I've
> > noticed a tad of slippage though on authenticity. We didn't have CAD
> > back then, and I seem to remember painful blisters on the palm of my
> > hand from hand-screwing dozens, if not hundreds of # 8x1/4 wood
> > screws to hold the bench work together - no power drivers then. Just
> > kidding. I look forward to future progress photos.
> >
> > Al Askerberg
> >
> > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
> >
> > You mean you didn't have a Yankee screwdriver?
> >
> > Don
> >
> He maybe didn't have a Yankee screwdfriver but he had a cordless one.
>
> John Hagen
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13305 From: sottguy Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
Ach! It's coming back to me like a bad dream. I used Dad's brace and screwdriver bit to drive those screws using my chin or cheek on top of my hand to get more weight on the brace. Why? The blister hadn't healed yet.
Al Askerberg.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
>
> I remember a Kalmbach pictureof Linn Westcott using a brace and bit to drill holes for benchwork, probably before L girder. Roger Aultman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Askerberg
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:18 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re:vintage layout progress update
>
>
>
> Now that's really neat ("neat" is 50s jargon for "cool").. I've
> noticed a tad of slippage though on authenticity. We didn't have CAD
> back then, and I seem to remember painful blisters on the palm of my
> hand from hand-screwing dozens, if not hundreds of # 8x1/4 wood
> screws to hold the bench work together - no power drivers then. Just
> kidding. I look forward to future progress photos.
>
> Al Askerberg
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13306 From: sottguy Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
Oops, make that #8 x 1-1/4". That reminds me, I labored mightily to screw down some 1/4 plywood cookie-cuter roadbed using flathead #8 x 1/2" screws. First I drilled (hand drill), then I countersunk the holes, then put soap on the screws and had at it with my sore palm. I was about 12 at the time. I fairly well completed that little layout through sheer perseverance. Perhaps I'll describe that layout and its equipment in a subsequent post. I even have a photo of the "bench-work" at an early stage.

Al Askerberg

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bob d" <fishntrains@...> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to figger out how the thing stays together with 1/4" screws....
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13307 From: Chris B Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
ok, wouldn't it be great if screws would hold it together?

but that 1941 MR continuing series called 10,000 Spikes that made such an impression on this 10 year old
was the saga of building a layout that preached benchwork fastened not by screws, oh no, the author disdained screws and the yankee drivers

as much as he disdained track hand-laid with any less than 4 spikes per tie!  (hence the title)...

All good benchwork (according to the dedicated but pretty light hearted author) required a good brace and a sharp doubletwist auger bit to bore holes for 1/4" carriage and hex head bolts...

when I was ten I didn't have a brace or a yankee driver, so nails had to do.
later when I apprenticed and went on to work as a restoration cabinetmaker and millwright, I collected and used a universe of exotic handtools that gave me more than my share of blisters and wounds...bull-nose scrapers, dovetail saws, draw knives, froes, hand-made molding planes, the whole shebang....

so now I'm lucky and have power drivers and drive screws, and I'm very grateful for them.  But unfortunately, I''m still trying to meet the stnadard of that damn 1941 MR layout building series, so I've used the power drivers to drill and tighten at least two hundred 1/4" bolts to hold theprimary benchwork members together and to fasten them to the house.  It's all been cut and clamp and level and drill and bolt for the past year.  I've only gotten to use the drivers for screws in the last few weeks as I finished the secondary frames that support the inclinesbetween the levels.
 
But finally, tonight I finished laying the 1/4" luan decks on the three levels that are hidden behind the wall in the laundry area, that means I can go ahead and start laying hardboard on the inclines in the layout room and hopefully, this saturday is my 58th birthday and I get to work on the layout from dawn till midnight if I choose,

hopefully, I'll have at least one trip by the GARCO switcher on a maiden run from the top level yard down the  200+ ft main line to the bottom level by saturday night!!

thanks for all the interest and encouragement, this group makes a solo basement vintage model railroad hobby anything but solo!
Chris B.


From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 8:52:40 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage layout progress update

 

I'm trying to figger out how the thing stays together with 1/4" screws....

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
>
>



From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 8:52:40 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: vintage layout progress update

 

I'm trying to figger out how the thing stays together with 1/4" screws....

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>



  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13308 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: American Beauty PRR "Florida Cars"
Hi Jim H.,

Just listed on eBay (at a higher minimun of $21.) are two boxed American Beauty kits for two different 85' "Pennsylvania Florida Cars." This is the link to the diner, the seller also has a matching mail-baggage car kit. My guess is that these "Florida Car" kits are intended to model stainless steel sided prototypes that PRR bought to match the stainless consists of ACL and Seaboard Florida bound trains but I am not familiar with these Americam Beauty PRR kits and have not seen them before. Are you able to supply any more information about them?

Diner:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290404057000&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
or
http://tinyurl.com/ydk7h38

Mail-baggage:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290404058072&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
or
http://tinyurl.com/ye4lst4

W Jay W.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13309 From: Jeff Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: vintage layout progress update
My dad bought a Yankee Screwdriver to assemble our Lionel layout in the late 50's. The never-sceniced layout is gone, but the trains still run.


Jeff Cornelius

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
>
> I actually have a Yankee Screwdriver here. Someone at a Boy Scout camp I work at during weekends in the summer, was going to throw it away after finding it in the maintenance barn, but I asked for it instead.
>
> Interesting little device. Fun to play with for a while!
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
> --- On Wed, 2/17/10, sottguy <aiberg@...> wrote:
>
> From: sottguy <aiberg@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re:vintage layout progress update
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 8:35 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Actually, my dad did have a Yankee screwdriver, but I didn't have the muscle to use it. Fortunately, we had enough soap so I could lubricate the screws. I seem to have lost Dad's Yankee screwdriver, but for someone seeking absolute authenticity, I have quite a supply of screws left over. For years I've tied to sell them at swap meets for $1. Now I'm trying to give 'em away. Next I'll have to pay someone.
>
>
>
> Al Askerberg
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "John H" <sprinthag@ ..> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ > wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > From: Askerberg
>
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:18 AM
>
> > > Su.bject: [vintageHO] Re:vintage layout progress update
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Now that's really neat ("neat" is 50s jargon for "cool").. I've
>
> > > noticed a tad of slippage though on authenticity. We didn't have CAD
>
> > > back then, and I seem to remember painful blisters on the palm of my
>
> > > hand from hand-screwing dozens, if not hundreds of # 8x1/4 wood
>
> > > screws to hold the bench work together - no power drivers then. Just
>
> > > kidding. I look forward to future progress photos.
>
> > >
>
> > > Al Askerberg
>
> > >
>
> > > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
>
> > >
>
> > > You mean you didn't have a Yankee screwdriver?
>
> > >
>
> > > Don
>
> > >
>
> > He maybe didn't have a Yankee screwdfriver but he had a cordless one.
>
> >
>
> > John Hagen
>
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13310 From: jim heckard Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: American Beauty PRR "Florida Cars"
W Jay W,
 
   Took a very quick look at both auctions and at the one body shown. Doesn't ring a bell but American Beauty had a  number of  road names / paint schemes. In the middle of a big family crisis at the moment so I won't be able to check further. I think Ray F W or others will be able to help. Sorry.
 
                                                                Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:01 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] American Beauty PRR "Florida Cars"

 

Hi Jim H.,

Just listed on eBay (at a higher minimun of $21.) are two boxed American Beauty kits for two different 85' "Pennsylvania Florida Cars." This is the link to the diner, the seller also has a matching mail-baggage car kit. My guess is that these "Florida Car" kits are intended to model stainless steel sided prototypes that PRR bought to match the stainless consists of ACL and Seaboard Florida bound trains but I am not familiar with these Americam Beauty PRR kits and have not seen them before. Are you able to supply any more information about them?

Diner:

http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=29040405700 0&ssPageName= ADME:B:SS: US:1123
or
http://tinyurl. com/ydk7h38

Mail-baggage:
http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=29040405807 2&ssPageName= ADME:B:SS: US:1123
or
http://tinyurl. com/ye4lst4

W Jay W.

Group: vintageHO Message: 13311 From: John H Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: vintage layout progress update
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "sottguy" <aiberg@...> wrote:
>
> Oops, make that #8 x 1-1/4". That reminds me, I labored mightily to screw down some 1/4 plywood cookie-cuter roadbed using flathead #8 x 1/2" screws. First I drilled (hand drill), then I countersunk the holes, then put soap on the screws and had at it with my sore palm. I was about 12 at the time. I fairly well completed that little layout through sheer perseverance. Perhaps I'll describe that layout and its equipment in a subsequent post. I even have a photo of the "bench-work" at an early stage.
>
> Al Askerberg
>
I was recalling in my mind (what's left of it that is) a mental picture of my dad driving the screws that joined the layout out structure. And he was using a brace with a screw driver bit in it. Straight bit for slotted screws no less. So the possibility of the bit sliding out of the slot with the resultant sudden lunge forward to a very sudden stop was ever present. Bees wax was on each any every screw.

And this was after dad had drilled and counter sunk each hole with the brace. He did use a Yankee drill and a Yankee screw driver for smaller stuff.

Nowadays we whine if we have to use a corded power drill or driver. Back in those days, all screw drivers were cordless.

John Hagen
Group: vintageHO Message: 13312 From: Russ Shiel Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Glory Trains
H'lo All...group wisdom sought! A set of Glory Trains HO MoW cars attracted a lot of bids y'day...I have hunted around for this manufacturer, including HO-Seeker, but elusive. Can anyone provide information on the make/maker and approximate vintage? There is a query in The Reporting Mark from July '95 (v. 13(4): 6) with the same request...given as Glory Industries, Bend OR...but no apparent response(s). Chrs, Russ
Group: vintageHO Message: 13313 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: American Beauty PRR "Florida Cars"
W Jay W., As Jim mentions, American Beauty had a number of different road
names. These "Florida Cars" did represent stainless steel sided cars by
supplying embossed aluminum overlays with the kits. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13314 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: American Beauty PRR "Florida Cars"
Hi Jim H, Ray F.W.,

Jim, Thank you for the reply in the midst of a family crisis, hope all turns out well, Ray was able to help.

Ray, You gave me the explaination I was looking for, as that somewhat wavy aluminum side I saw in the photo was the use of a later production overlay. That did not look like the sturdy flat steel side I associated with Amercan Beauty cars and learned new information today.

Thanks to both of you.

W Jay W. (Ps., all, I'm not bidding on them, just learning!)

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> W Jay W,
>
> Took a very quick look at both auctions and at the one body shown. Doesn't ring a bell but American Beauty had a number of road names / paint schemes. In the middle of a big family crisis at the moment so I won't be able to check further. I think Ray F W or others will be able to help. Sorry.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:01 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] American Beauty PRR "Florida Cars"
>
>
>
> Hi Jim H.,
>
> Just listed on eBay (at a higher minimun of $21.) are two boxed American Beauty kits for two different 85' "Pennsylvania Florida Cars." This is the link to the diner, the seller also has a matching mail-baggage car kit. My guess is that these "Florida Car" kits are intended to model stainless steel sided prototypes that PRR bought to match the stainless consists of ACL and Seaboard Florida bound trains but I am not familiar with these Americam Beauty PRR kits and have not seen them before. Are you able to supply any more information about them?
>
> Diner:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290404057000&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/ydk7h38
>
> Mail-baggage:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290404058072&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/ye4lst4
>
> W Jay W.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13315 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Attachments :
Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids$3.99Feb-15 09:3



  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13316 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Jim, I'm not bidding, I was passing this along to you because I thought you'd said you were seeking the B unit for your collection.
Chris B


From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 1:19:03 PM
Subject: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids$3.99Feb-15 09:3




Group: vintageHO Message: 13317 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
Chris,
 
They are Dallas Model Craft.
 
The A unit should have either diecast sides with the details molded in or it should have straight aluminum sides with an embossed paper overlay.
 
Funny, I sold the complete boxed set I had 2 years ago, now I am looking for set for my collection.
 
Sean


From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 1:19:03 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 

Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3




Group: vintageHO Message: 13318 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Thanks Sean, I was pretty sure it was a DMC A unit, but I had never seen the matching B. the top view looked like a match though.
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:25:06 -0800 (PST)
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Chris,
 
They are Dallas Model Craft.
 
The A unit should have either diecast sides with the details molded in or it should have straight aluminum sides with an embossed paper overlay.
 
Funny, I sold the complete boxed set I had 2 years ago, now I am looking for set for my collection.
 
Sean


From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 1:19:03 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 

Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3




Group: vintageHO Message: 13319 From: jim heckard Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 

Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3



Group: vintageHO Message: 13320 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Jim, I hope all goes as well as it possibly can,
trains only matter when all family is fine , take good care,
Chris B
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:23:56 -0500
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 

Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3



Group: vintageHO Message: 13321 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hi Chris and All,
 
Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection.  I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
 
Jay


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 

Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3




Group: vintageHO Message: 13322 From: Riverboy Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hi Jay ,
 
I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
 
Tod ( Riverboy )

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM

 
Hi Chris and All,
 
Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection.  I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
 
Jay


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 
Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3




Group: vintageHO Message: 13323 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Dido here. I was thinking the same thing. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:02 PM, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote:

 

Hi Jay ,
 
I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
 
Tod ( Riverboy )

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM

 
Hi Chris and All,
 
Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection.  I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
 
Jay


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 
Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3





Group: vintageHO Message: 13324 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
That makes four of us at least.
Here's my pitch,
I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.

My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Hi Jay ,
 
I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
 
Tod ( Riverboy )

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM

 
Hi Chris and All,
 
Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection.  I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
 
Jay


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 
Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3




Group: vintageHO Message: 13325 From: Riverboy Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
That sounds like an excellent idea , as long as only one of us is bidding on it , and we are not bidding against each other . We need to establish which on of us will be the bidder . It diesn't matter to me who does it .
 
Tod

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:

From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 7:28 PM

 
Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
That makes four of us at least.
Here's my pitch,
I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.

My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@yahoo. com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Hi Jay ,
 
I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
 
Tod ( Riverboy )

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM

 
Hi Chris and All,
 
Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection.  I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
 
Jay


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 
Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3




Group: vintageHO Message: 13326 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Dido. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:

 

Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
That makes four of us at least.
Here's my pitch,
I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.

My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.


From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@yahoo. com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Hi Jay ,
 
I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
 
Tod ( Riverboy )

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM

 
Hi Chris and All,
 
Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection.  I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
 
Jay


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 
Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3





Group: vintageHO Message: 13327 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
Wuddysay Jay?
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50 -0800 (PST)
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Dido. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
That makes four of us at least.
Here's my pitch,
I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.

My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.


From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@yahoo. com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Hi Jay ,
 
I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
 
Tod ( Riverboy )

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM

 
Hi Chris and All,
 
Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection.  I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
 
Jay


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 
Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3





Group: vintageHO Message: 13328 From: Riverboy Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
If Jay says no , I was second up and I will do it .
 
Tod

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:

From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 7:38 PM

 
Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
Wuddysay Jay?
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50 -0800 (PST)
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Dido. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:

 
Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
That makes four of us at least.
Here's my pitch,
I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.

My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.

From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@yahoo. com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Hi Jay ,
 
I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
 
Tod ( Riverboy )

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM

 
Hi Chris and All,
 
Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection.  I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
 
Jay


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 
Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3





Group: vintageHO Message: 13329 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
If we can get the B unit shell,

in addition to my share of the total ebay cost
, I'd like to offer to add a set of what I think are DMC e unit trucks, one with flywheel and both geared that I got from Sean a few years ago...
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 00:38:14 +0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
Wuddysay Jay?


From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50 -0800 (PST)
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Dido. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
That makes four of us at least.
Here's my pitch,
I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.

My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.


From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@yahoo. com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Hi Jay ,
 
I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
 
Tod ( Riverboy )

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM

 
Hi Chris and All,
 
Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection.  I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
 
Jay


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
Chris,
 
    I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital  visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
 
                                 Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]

 
Hey  Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
Chris B

0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3





Group: vintageHO Message: 13330 From: trainliker Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
I'm another who had the same idea and see many have beaten me to it.

Put me down to contribute a "share" up to $50 for the share.

Chuck Kinzer

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> If we can get the B unit shell,
>
> in addition to my share of the total ebay cost
> , I'd like to offer to add a set of what I think are DMC e unit trucks, one with flywheel and both geared that I got from Sean a few years ago...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 00:38:14
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> Wuddysay Jay?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Dido.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> That makes four of us at least.
> Here's my pitch,
> I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
>
> My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
>
> From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>
> Hi Jay ,
>
> I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
>
> Tod ( Riverboy )
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
>
>
> Hi Chris and All,
>
> Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
>
> Jay
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
>
> Jim H
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris B
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
>
>
> Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> Chris B
>
> VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13331 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> Wuddysay Jay?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Dido.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> That makes four of us at least.
> Here's my pitch,
> I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
>
> My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
>
> From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>
> Hi Jay ,
>
> I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
>
> Tod ( Riverboy )
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
>
>
> Hi Chris and All,
>
> Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
>
> Jay
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
>
> Jim H
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris B
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
>
>
> Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> Chris B
>
> VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13332 From: Riverboy Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Sounds good buddy . I am still watching it anyway to see where it goes .
 
Tod

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 8:52 PM

 
All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> Wuddysay Jay?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Dido.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> That makes four of us at least.
> Here's my pitch,
> I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
>
> My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
>
> From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@...>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>
> Hi Jay ,
>
> I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
>
> Tod ( Riverboy )
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ ...>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
>
>
> Hi Chris and All,
>
> Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
>
> Jay
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
>
> Jim H
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris B
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
>
>
> Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> Chris B
>
> VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13333 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Chatter from the bench...

Go Jay!!!!

Take it home!!!


From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> Wuddysay Jay?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Dido.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> That makes four of us at least.
> Here's my pitch,
> I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
>
> My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
>
> From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@...>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>
> Hi Jay ,
>
> I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
>
> Tod ( Riverboy )
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ ...>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
>
>
> Hi Chris and All,
>
> Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
>
> Jay
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
>
> Jim H
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris B
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
>
>
> Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> Chris B
>
> VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13334 From: Chris B Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
I just chkd it too, on my blkbry,

I've been on the floor under the benchwork, screwing in corner blocks for luan decks this whole time!!

What olympics?? This is my kind of team sport!!!

Go Jay GO!!
From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:02:10 -0800 (PST)
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Sounds good buddy . I am still watching it anyway to see where it goes .
 
Tod

 


--- On Fri, 2/19/10, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 8:52 PM

 
All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> Wuddysay Jay?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Dido.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> That makes four of us at least.
> Here's my pitch,
> I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
>
> My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
>
> From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@...>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>
> Hi Jay ,
>
> I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
>
> Tod ( Riverboy )
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ ...>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
>
>
> Hi Chris and All,
>
> Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
>
> Jay
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
>
> Jim H
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris B
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
>
>
> Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> Chris B
>
> VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13335 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hi All,

I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> Chatter from the bench...
>
> Go Jay!!!!
>
> Take it home!!!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
> >
> > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> > Wuddysay Jay?
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@>
> > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> > Dido.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> > That makes four of us at least.
> > Here's my pitch,
> > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> >
> > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> >
> > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@>
> > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> >
> > Hi Jay ,
> >
> > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> >
> > Tod ( Riverboy )
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> >
> > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@>
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> >
> >
> > Hi Chris and All,
> >
> > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> >
> > Jay
> >
> > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> >
> > Jim H
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Chris B
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> >
> >
> > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> > Chris B
> >
> > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13336 From: jim heckard Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hi Everyone,
 
         I have to be very careful not to be off topic. Its 6:20 A.M. on the computer as I have just come back to check the house, shower and clean up and take fresh clothes back to my wife to continue a vigil with that inevitable outcome.
 
       Checking messages I see what some great HO TRAIN people are doing. Thanks. While it wasn't necessary it is appreciated. I have "met" some really nice people being a member of this Vintage HO train group. Most only by computer but a number by phone ( and not just talking about trains ) and visits. It's a great group led by a moderator who gives leeway. I have always tried to share any and all knowledge I have learned. Plus I have learned so much from the membership. When this is over I will continue to be available and my door is always open to visits as some already know.
 
    Must go now.
 
                                     Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 11:10 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Hi All,

I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Chatter from the bench...
>
> Go Jay!!!!
>
> Take it home!!!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...>
> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> >
> > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> > Wuddysay Jay?
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ >
> > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> > Dido.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> > That makes four of us at least.
> > Here's my pitch,
> > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> >
> > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> >
> > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@>
> > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> >
> > Hi Jay ,
> >
> > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> >
> > Tod ( Riverboy )
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> >
> > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ >
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> >
> >
> > Hi Chris and All,
> >
> > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> >
> > Jay
> >
> > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> >
> > Jim H
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Chris B
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> >
> >
> > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> > Chris B
> >
> > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> >
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13337 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hi All, Just checking in to let you know that everything is on track for the bid for Jim's lot in a couple of hours from now! W. Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
> >
> > Chatter from the bench...
> >
> > Go Jay!!!!
> >
> > Take it home!!!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@>
> > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> > All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> > > Wuddysay Jay?
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@>
> > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > > Dido.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> > > That makes four of us at least.
> > > Here's my pitch,
> > > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> > >
> > > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> > >
> > > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@>
> > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Jay ,
> > >
> > > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> > >
> > > Tod ( Riverboy )
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@>
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Chris and All,
> > >
> > > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> > >
> > > Jay
> > >
> > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> > >
> > > Jim H
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Chris B
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> > >
> > >
> > > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> > > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> > > Chris B
> > >
> > > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13338 From: Chris B Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Great!
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:37:17 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Hi All, Just checking in to let you know that everything is on track for the bid for Jim's lot in a couple of hours from now! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> >
> > Chatter from the bench...
> >
> > Go Jay!!!!
> >
> > Take it home!!!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ >
> > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> > All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> > > Wuddysay Jay?
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ >
> > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > > Dido.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> > > That makes four of us at least.
> > > Here's my pitch,
> > > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> > >
> > > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> > >
> > > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@>
> > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Jay ,
> > >
> > > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> > >
> > > Tod ( Riverboy )
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ >
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Chris and All,
> > >
> > > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> > >
> > > Jay
> > >
> > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> > >
> > > Jim H
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Chris B
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> > >
> > >
> > > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> > > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> > > Chris B
> > >
> > > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> > >
> >
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13339 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
OK All, We were successful in getting the lot to give to Jim. I'll print out a new address label and stick it on as soon as it arrives and send it with tracking to Jim as he should also have the pleaseure of opening it as well. Before it arrives, if anyone wants to email me off list with a personal note to include in the package, I will slit it open a bit and slip them in and reseal before mailing.

Whew! I made sure we'd win, but on eBay, one never knows if someone else might put in a very high "buy" bid, too! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> Great!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:37:17
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Hi All, Just checking in to let you know that everything is on track for the bid for Jim's lot in a couple of hours from now! W. Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chatter from the bench...
> > >
> > > Go Jay!!!!
> > >
> > > Take it home!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@>
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > > All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> > > > Wuddysay Jay?
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@>
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > Dido.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> > > > That makes four of us at least.
> > > > Here's my pitch,
> > > > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> > > >
> > > > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> > > >
> > > > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@>
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jay ,
> > > >
> > > > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> > > >
> > > > Tod ( Riverboy )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Chris and All,
> > > >
> > > > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> > > >
> > > > Jay
> > > >
> > > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Jim H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Chris B
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> > > > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> > > > Chris B
> > > >
> > > > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13340 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Thanks to all of you who were involved in this for Jim.  I missed much of the messages and most of the details but I have noted the care and compassion for Jim that the group of you expressed in actions and in giving.  I find it most refreshing to just know about it in this world in which I live and work today.

Thanks again...  Be even greater blessed...
Don Staton in VA
=======================================================

the_plainsman wrote:
 

OK All, We were successful in getting the lot to give to Jim. I'll print out a new address label and stick it on as soon as it arrives and send it with tracking to Jim as he should also have the pleaseure of opening it as well. Before it arrives, if anyone wants to email me off list with a personal note to include in the package, I will slit it open a bit and slip them in and reseal before mailing.

Whew! I made sure we'd win, but on eBay, one never knows if someone else might put in a very high "buy" bid, too! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Great!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...>
> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:37:17
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Hi All, Just checking in to let you know that everything is on track for the bid for Jim's lot in a couple of hours from now! W. Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chatter from the bench...
> > >
> > > Go Jay!!!!
> > >
> > > Take it home!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ >
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > > All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> > > > Wuddysay Jay?
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ >
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > Dido.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> > > > That makes four of us at least.
> > > > Here's my pitch,
> > > > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> > > >
> > > > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> > > >
> > > > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@>
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jay ,
> > > >
> > > > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> > > >
> > > > Tod ( Riverboy )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ >
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Chris and All,
> > > >
> > > > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> > > >
> > > > Jay
> > > >
> > > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Jim H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Chris B
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> > > > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> > > > Chris B
> > > >
> > > > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13341 From: Chris B Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Good work!
Pls let me know how to get my share to you, ill have to send the trucks along later inthe wk, as for mssg, if you wouldn't mind printing out my earlier mssg to jim about trains only matter...etc.?


Again, good job!
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:49:25 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

OK All, We were successful in getting the lot to give to Jim. I'll print out a new address label and stick it on as soon as it arrives and send it with tracking to Jim as he should also have the pleaseure of opening it as well. Before it arrives, if anyone wants to email me off list with a personal note to include in the package, I will slit it open a bit and slip them in and reseal before mailing.

Whew! I made sure we'd win, but on eBay, one never knows if someone else might put in a very high "buy" bid, too! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Great!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...>
> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:37:17
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Hi All, Just checking in to let you know that everything is on track for the bid for Jim's lot in a couple of hours from now! W. Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chatter from the bench...
> > >
> > > Go Jay!!!!
> > >
> > > Take it home!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ >
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > > All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> > > > Wuddysay Jay?
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ >
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > Dido.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> > > > That makes four of us at least.
> > > > Here's my pitch,
> > > > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> > > >
> > > > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> > > >
> > > > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@>
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jay ,
> > > >
> > > > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> > > >
> > > > Tod ( Riverboy )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ >
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Chris and All,
> > > >
> > > > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> > > >
> > > > Jay
> > > >
> > > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Jim H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Chris B
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> > > > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> > > > Chris B
> > > >
> > > > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13342 From: Riverboy Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hi Guys ,
 
Let me know how much and where to send my donation too .
 
I'm glad it was a successful venture .
 
Tod

 


--- On Sat, 2/20/10, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:

From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 1:24 PM

 
Good work!
Pls let me know how to get my share to you, ill have to send the trucks along later inthe wk, as for mssg, if you wouldn't mind printing out my earlier mssg to jim about trains only matter...etc. ?


Again, good job!
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:49:25 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
OK All, We were successful in getting the lot to give to Jim. I'll print out a new address label and stick it on as soon as it arrives and send it with tracking to Jim as he should also have the pleaseure of opening it as well. Before it arrives, if anyone wants to email me off list with a personal note to include in the package, I will slit it open a bit and slip them in and reseal before mailing.

Whew! I made sure we'd win, but on eBay, one never knows if someone else might put in a very high "buy" bid, too! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Great!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...>
> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:37:17
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Hi All, Just checking in to let you know that everything is on track for the bid for Jim's lot in a couple of hours from now! W. Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chatter from the bench...
> > >
> > > Go Jay!!!!
> > >
> > > Take it home!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ >
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > > All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> > > > Wuddysay Jay?
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ >
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > Dido.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> > > > That makes four of us at least.
> > > > Here's my pitch,
> > > > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> > > >
> > > > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> > > >
> > > > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@>
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jay ,
> > > >
> > > > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> > > >
> > > > Tod ( Riverboy )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ >
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Chris and All,
> > > >
> > > > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> > > >
> > > > Jay
> > > >
> > > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Jim H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Chris B
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> > > > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> > > > Chris B
> > > >
> > > > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13343 From: Fred Krause Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hello guys ,
I am new here and have Ambroid kits available dating back to 1960.  Anyone interested contact me at mbe4385@.... These are mint condition all parts are intact.


From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, February 20, 2010 11:49:25 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

OK All, We were successful in getting the lot to give to Jim. I'll print out a new address label and stick it on as soon as it arrives and send it with tracking to Jim as he should also have the pleaseure of opening it as well. Before it arrives, if anyone wants to email me off list with a personal note to include in the package, I will slit it open a bit and slip them in and reseal before mailing.

Whew! I made sure we'd win, but on eBay, one never knows if someone else might put in a very high "buy" bid, too! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Great!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...>
> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:37:17
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Hi All, Just checking in to let you know that everything is on track for the bid for Jim's lot in a couple of hours from now! W. Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chatter from the bench...
> > >
> > > Go Jay!!!!
> > >
> > > Take it home!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ >
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > > All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> > > > Wuddysay Jay?
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ >
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > Dido.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> > > > That makes four of us at least.
> > > > Here's my pitch,
> > > > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> > > >
> > > > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> > > >
> > > > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@>
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jay ,
> > > >
> > > > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> > > >
> > > > Tod ( Riverboy )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ >
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Chris and All,
> > > >
> > > > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> > > >
> > > > Jay
> > > >
> > > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Jim H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Chris B
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> > > > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> > > > Chris B
> > > >
> > > > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13344 From: RalphB Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Varney "Casey Jones"
The first HO steam locomotive I had (not counting the Marx train set my father sold to buy our first HO set) was a Varney "Casey Jones" Ten-Wheeler. Yeah, I know; the only things shared with the real IC engineer were the wheel arrangement and the number on the tender, but I'd learn that much later.

Anyway, there's one on E-Bay now (Iten #110496152197) and I'm thinking of bidding. I just don't want to end up in a bidding war with anyone in this group. I'll defer to anyone who has a deeper interest than I do; otherwise, I'm going to bid what I feel is reasonable.

Ralph B
Group: vintageHO Message: 13345 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
If you do not get that one, keep looking.  They appear there often.
Don Staton in VA
============================================

RalphB wrote:
 

The first HO steam locomotive I had (not counting the Marx train set my father sold to buy our first HO set) was a Varney "Casey Jones" Ten-Wheeler. Yeah, I know; the only things shared with the real IC engineer were the wheel arrangement and the number on the tender, but I'd learn that much later.


Group: vintageHO Message: 13346 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
I have a few of them myself; good light road engines!

Question for the group: I have two that have steps like what you see on HOseeker's site, and a third that has different pilot steps, more like the pilot and steps found on a Varney Pacific.

The one with different pilot steps, also has brass pilot wheels and no floor on the tender.

When was this changeover in design?

Would post pics of the differences, but right now I cannot find my camera...

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 2/20/10, RalphB <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:

From: RalphB <Alpvalsys@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Varney "Casey Jones"
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 4:59 PM

 

The first HO steam locomotive I had (not counting the Marx train set my father sold to buy our first HO set) was a Varney "Casey Jones" Ten-Wheeler. Yeah, I know; the only things shared with the real IC engineer were the wheel arrangement and the number on the tender, but I'd learn that much later.

Anyway, there's one on E-Bay now (Iten #110496152197) and I'm thinking of bidding. I just don't want to end up in a bidding war with anyone in this group. I'll defer to anyone who has a deeper interest than I do; otherwise, I'm going to bid what I feel is reasonable.

Ralph B

Group: vintageHO Message: 13347 From: Dale Smith Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
I just purchased a Revell 0-6-0 on Ebay, which has a smoke unit.
Unfortunately, the sound unit was removed by the previous owner. There
is continuity across the smoke winding, and it seems to be getting
power, but no smoke. I am familiar with the Gilbert smoke units, but
there appears to be nothing to push the smoke out. Did the sound unit,
which is actuated by a pawl on the center driver, work in some way to
push out the smoke on this unit also? Does anyone know whether Revell
parts are available anywhere? Thanks for any information.

Dale Smith
Group: vintageHO Message: 13348 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
Pistons push the smoke:

http://hoseeker.net/revellinformation/revellcatalog1956pg12.jpg


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...> wrote:
>
> I just purchased a Revell 0-6-0 on Ebay, which has a smoke unit.
> Unfortunately, the sound unit was removed by the previous owner. There
> is continuity across the smoke winding, and it seems to be getting
> power, but no smoke. I am familiar with the Gilbert smoke units, but
> there appears to be nothing to push the smoke out. Did the sound unit,
> which is actuated by a pawl on the center driver, work in some way to
> push out the smoke on this unit also? Does anyone know whether Revell
> parts are available anywhere? Thanks for any information.
>
> Dale Smith
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13349 From: Mike Bauers Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:34 PM, Dale Smith wrote:

> I just purchased a Revell 0-6-0 on Ebay, which has a smoke unit.
> Unfortunately, the sound unit was removed by the previous owner.
> There
> is continuity across the smoke winding, and it seems to be getting
> power, but no smoke. I am familiar with the Gilbert smoke units, but
> there appears to be nothing to push the smoke out. Did the sound
> unit,
> which is actuated by a pawl on the center driver, work in some way to
> push out the smoke on this unit also? Does anyone know whether Revell
> parts are available anywhere? Thanks for any information.
>
> Dale Smith

I think the pawl operated a pump in the units.

Do you have the 0-6-0 or the 0-6-0t switcher? I have some unneeded
parts for the 0-6-0t. I got some units a while back on eBay and will
be updating them with DCC and sound.


Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi
Group: vintageHO Message: 13350 From: Dale Smith Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
I guess the real question then is how well the smoke units worked.  The diagram in the ad shows fluid at the bottom of the smoke chamber, but the coil appears to be at the top.  I have looked at the exploded view of the 0-6-0T, which is the one I have, and it doesn't seem clear as to exactly where the coil is.  Are there things that can go wrong within the piston assemblies that could foil smoke production.  Before I start replacing parts, I would like to know how well this worked in a best case scenario.  Thanks,

Dale

Mike Bauers wrote:
 

On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:34 PM, Dale Smith wrote:

> I just purchased a Revell 0-6-0 on Ebay, which has a smoke unit.
> Unfortunately, the sound unit was removed by the previous owner.
> There
> is continuity across the smoke winding, and it seems to be getting
> power, but no smoke. I am familiar with the Gilbert smoke units, but
> there appears to be nothing to push the smoke out. Did the sound
> unit,
> which is actuated by a pawl on the center driver, work in some way to
> push out the smoke on this unit also? Does anyone know whether Revell
> parts are available anywhere? Thanks for any information.
>
> Dale Smith

I think the pawl operated a pump in the units.

Do you have the 0-6-0 or the 0-6-0t switcher? I have some unneeded
parts for the 0-6-0t. I got some units a while back on eBay and will
be updating them with DCC and sound.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO Message: 13351 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
I never owned one as a kid, but I remember them.
Like most smoke units, not well or often.
But, I suppose you could tweak them to work well.....and cover your engines and track with oil.
Was the smoke unit disconnected when you got it?
Might have been a reason.

There is sometimes a wick running up from the reservoir to the element.
This soaks up the oil, wicks it to the element, the pistons (which are not tight seal, BTW) whoosh a light breeze past the outlet.

I thought only one side, but it's been a long time.
You should be able to apply power (lots, as my experience is they had to have almost take-off speed to work) and smell the stack, see if it is getting hot.

Just my recollections......


Oh, and most of the engines I get (in another scale/gauge) come with smoke, both steam and dismal......and they get cut out almost first thing.

Dave


> I guess the real question then is how well the smoke units worked. The
> diagram in the ad shows fluid at the bottom of the smoke chamber, but
> the coil appears to be at the top. I have looked at the exploded view
> of the 0-6-0T, which is the one I have, and it doesn't seem clear as to
> exactly where the coil is. Are there things that can go wrong within
> the piston assemblies that could foil smoke production. Before I start
> replacing parts, I would like to know how well this worked in a best
> case scenario. Thanks,
>
> Dale
>
> Mike Bauers wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:34 PM, Dale Smith wrote:
> >
> > > I just purchased a Revell 0-6-0 on Ebay, which has a smoke unit.
> > > Unfortunately, the sound unit was removed by the previous owner.
> > > There
> > > is continuity across the smoke winding, and it seems to be getting
> > > power, but no smoke. I am familiar with the Gilbert smoke units, but
> > > there appears to be nothing to push the smoke out. Did the sound
> > > unit,
> > > which is actuated by a pawl on the center driver, work in some way to
> > > push out the smoke on this unit also? Does anyone know whether Revell
> > > parts are available anywhere? Thanks for any information.
> > >
> > > Dale Smith
> >
> > I think the pawl operated a pump in the units.
> >
> > Do you have the 0-6-0 or the 0-6-0t switcher? I have some unneeded
> > parts for the 0-6-0t. I got some units a while back on eBay and will
> > be updating them with DCC and sound.
> >
> > Best to ya,
> > Mike Bauers
> > Milwaukee, Wi
> >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13352 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
As I remember the Revell 0-6-0T, the "sound unit" was a plastic box about
half full of BBs--the thing on the axle shook the BBs creating the sound.
gj

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Smith" <dfsmith26@...>
To: <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 7:34 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0


>I just purchased a Revell 0-6-0 on Ebay, which has a smoke unit.
> Unfortunately, the sound unit was removed by the previous owner. There
> is continuity across the smoke winding, and it seems to be getting
> power, but no smoke. I am familiar with the Gilbert smoke units, but
> there appears to be nothing to push the smoke out. Did the sound unit,
> which is actuated by a pawl on the center driver, work in some way to
> push out the smoke on this unit also? Does anyone know whether Revell
> parts are available anywhere? Thanks for any information.
>
> Dale Smith
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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07:34:00
Group: vintageHO Message: 13353 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Good Morning Guys, Just like Don S. has posted, I too have missed these
messages about the DMC B Unit and the decision by members of the group to win
the auction for it for Jim H. in lieu of his inability to attend to getting
up on the eBay site himself at the time. Had I seen these messages, I would
have glad to support this purchase also, but having other matters to take
care of I wasn't up on line the past couple of days. I'm glad to see that it
was won by you guys, and for only $26. Nice work guys, it's nice to know
we have a caring group here who unselfishly think about others here in need
when they can't do it themselves -- I know Jim appreciates it. From the
message that Jim left about bringing his wife a change of fresh clothes, it
appears that his wife may be having health issues and may be in a care facility
at this time. I wish his wife a speedy recovery if this is the case. Best,
Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13354 From: jim heckard Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: It's over
To Don D,  
 
     Please indulge me one last time.
 
  To my friends,
 
            This morning at 8:30 AM my wife's mother took that heavenly train ride home. She was 88 and things have been bad. The part that makes everything harder even for me is that we built our new rancher 6 years ago next to her mother so she could stay in her home but still have people close to care for her. To me she was the best Mother In Law you could ask for.
 
     To everyone in the group I say THANK YOU  for what you did about the Ebay auction, to all who have sent messages both through the site  ( Thank You again Don ) and direct. Please don't use the site any more and if you want to contact me go direct at  jimheck@... . I might not respond quickly but I eventually will.
 
   A great bunch of members and I won't forget this. It might not be till next week that I participate on the site.
 
                                                    Jim Heckard
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13355 From: rcjge Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hey Gents:

Just wanted to clarify since someone mentioned Jim's Wife. It's his Wife's Mother who is in very serious condition. He will at his discretion add details.

Just a side note on Jim's generosity. As some of you may know I had a Varney Super Consolie restored beautifully by Ray Marinaccio, a list member but the boiler was damaged while in transit. When Jim found out he donated a replacement boiler/cab for it's re-restoration! That may help people understand why so many stepped up here to get something for Jim from ebay.

Regards,
Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13356 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Mantua Portable Uncouplers - Trade Offer
All,

I am installing Mantua loop coupler uncoupling ramps on my layout. I have a few I can't use, that have die cast bases (In good shape). Have two of them in front of me.

Does anyone have two with the stamped base? The stamped base has a square hole in the center, and I use that hole to mount them to my track, so they are mostly permanent like a Kadee magnet.

I would like to trade one for one, with each party paying their own postage (Probably around a buck and a half each way by First Class Mail.

Anyone interested?

-Steve Neubaum
Group: vintageHO Message: 13357 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Hello Jim, When you mentioned about taking fresh clothes to your wife, I
automatically thought that she was ill, possibly in the hospital. I had no
idea this had anything to do with your mother-in-law, as nothing was said
about her condition. I'm very sorry to hear of her passing. Please accept my
sincere condolences at this time, and if you would, please pass them on to
your wife for me. Your M-I-L will be in my prayers.
In deepest sympathy, Ray Wetzel </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13358 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Jim:

No indulgences or apologies are necessary. We are all friends here and
that is what friends are for. Just please accept both Lexy's and my sincere
prayers for the soul of your mother in law, and our deepest sympathy for
you and your wife. God be with you in this time of need.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


----- Original Message -----
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:01 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] It's over


To Don D,

Please indulge me one last time.

To my friends,

This morning at 8:30 AM my wife's mother took that heavenly
train ride home. She was 88 and things have been bad. The part that makes
everything harder even for me is that we built our new rancher 6 years ago
next to her mother so she could stay in her home but still have people close
to care for her. To me she was the best Mother In Law you could ask for.

To everyone in the group I say THANK YOU for what you did about the
Ebay auction, to all who have sent messages both through the site ( Thank
You again Don ) and direct. Please don't use the site any more and if you
want to contact me go direct at jimheck@... . I might not respond
quickly but I eventually will.

A great bunch of members and I won't forget this. It might not be till
next week that I participate on the site.

Jim Heckard
Group: vintageHO Message: 13359 From: Nelson B Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
There's an exploded view on Tony cook's site: http://ho-scaletrains.net/revellhoscaletrainsresource/id5.html

Curmudgeon was right... it's the pistons themselves that push air up through the smoke unit through a series of passages, with two gaskets that help to maintain a seal. The smoke production is nowhere near what an AF HO unit could produce, but they smoke well enough if the unit hasn't been flooded. The element is wrapped around a fiberglass form that looks like a small piece of cardboard.

The sound unit is just a shaker full of birdshot that is flicked by the pawl on the center axle. It tends to cause surging performance, and most units have worn side rod holes on the geared and center axles from the extra stress if they saw much use. These locos tend to waddle even without wear, and the sound is pretty annoying, so I've removed the shaker as well but have it with the loco for safe keeping.

Nelson


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...> wrote:
>
> I guess the real question then is how well the smoke units worked. The
> diagram in the ad shows fluid at the bottom of the smoke chamber, but
> the coil appears to be at the top. I have looked at the exploded view
> of the 0-6-0T, which is the one I have, and it doesn't seem clear as to
> exactly where the coil is. Are there things that can go wrong within
> the piston assemblies that could foil smoke production. Before I start
> replacing parts, I would like to know how well this worked in a best
> case scenario. Thanks,
>
> Dale
>
> Mike Bauers wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:34 PM, Dale Smith wrote:
> >
> > > I just purchased a Revell 0-6-0 on Ebay, which has a smoke unit.
> > > Unfortunately, the sound unit was removed by the previous owner.
> > > There
> > > is continuity across the smoke winding, and it seems to be getting
> > > power, but no smoke. I am familiar with the Gilbert smoke units, but
> > > there appears to be nothing to push the smoke out. Did the sound
> > > unit,
> > > which is actuated by a pawl on the center driver, work in some way to
> > > push out the smoke on this unit also? Does anyone know whether Revell
> > > parts are available anywhere? Thanks for any information.
> > >
> > > Dale Smith
> >
> > I think the pawl operated a pump in the units.
> >
> > Do you have the 0-6-0 or the 0-6-0t switcher? I have some unneeded
> > parts for the 0-6-0t. I got some units a while back on eBay and will
> > be updating them with DCC and sound.
> >
> > Best to ya,
> > Mike Bauers
> > Milwaukee, Wi
> >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13360 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
I echo those sentiments as I am sure we all do.  You shall be thought of and lifted often...
Don Staton in VA.
=================================================

Don Dellmann wrote:
 

Jim:

No indulgences or apologies are necessary. We are all friends here and
that is what friends are for. Just please accept both Lexy's and my sincere
prayers for the soul of your mother in law, and our deepest sympathy for
you and your wife. God be with you in this time of need.

Don


Group: vintageHO Message: 13361 From: RalphB Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
Thanks for the advice, Don, but this one's up now and the price isn't too high, yet. I'll drop off if the price goes beyond what I think is reasonable for this old, but not all-that-rare loco.

Ralph B

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
>
> /If you do not get that one, keep looking. They appear there often.
> Don Staton in VA
Group: vintageHO Message: 13362 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Hi Jim,
I am truely sorry for you and your families loss. I believe she is in a better place.
 
Please do not worry about being off topic here about this. That is not what we are all about.
 
Sean


From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 1:10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] It's over

 

Jim:

No indulgences or apologies are necessary. We are all friends here and
that is what friends are for. Just please accept both Lexy's and my sincere
prayers for the soul of your mother in law, and our deepest sympathy for
you and your wife. God be with you in this time of need.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:01 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] It's over

To Don D,

Please indulge me one last time.

To my friends,

This morning at 8:30 AM my wife's mother took that heavenly
train ride home. She was 88 and things have been bad. The part that makes
everything harder even for me is that we built our new rancher 6 years ago
next to her mother so she could stay in her home but still have people close
to care for her. To me she was the best Mother In Law you could ask for.

To everyone in the group I say THANK YOU for what you did about the
Ebay auction, to all who have sent messages both through the site ( Thank
You again Don ) and direct. Please don't use the site any more and if you
want to contact me go direct at jimheck@losch. net . I might not respond
quickly but I eventually will.

A great bunch of members and I won't forget this. It might not be till
next week that I participate on the site.

Jim Heckard


Group: vintageHO Message: 13363 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/21/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hi W jay
 
2 things.. First:
 
What is my cut due on Jim's parts?
 
Second, I think I included one too many cab rears in your lot. I did not notice when I took the picture of the lot I sold you that I had picked up the cab back (with the windows molded open) that I planned to include with the other shell I sold.  I wish to trade it with you for some more endframes and cab ends (without the windows molded open) if you would be willing to send the cab end to the other buyer.
 
Please let me know on both and I will get both off to you immediatly..
 
Thanks,
Sean


From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, February 20, 2010 3:14:27 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 

Hi Guys ,
 
Let me know how much and where to send my donation too .
 
I'm glad it was a successful venture .
 
Tod

 


--- On Sat, 2/20/10, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 1:24 PM

 
Good work!
Pls let me know how to get my share to you, ill have to send the trucks along later inthe wk, as for mssg, if you wouldn't mind printing out my earlier mssg to jim about trains only matter...etc. ?


Again, good job!
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:49:25 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE

 
OK All, We were successful in getting the lot to give to Jim. I'll print out a new address label and stick it on as soon as it arrives and send it with tracking to Jim as he should also have the pleaseure of opening it as well. Before it arrives, if anyone wants to email me off list with a personal note to include in the package, I will slit it open a bit and slip them in and reseal before mailing.

Whew! I made sure we'd win, but on eBay, one never knows if someone else might put in a very high "buy" bid, too! W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Great!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...>
> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:37:17
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
> Hi All, Just checking in to let you know that everything is on track for the bid for Jim's lot in a couple of hours from now! W. Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chatter from the bench...
> > >
> > > Go Jay!!!!
> > >
> > > Take it home!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ >
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > >
> > > All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> > > > Wuddysay Jay?
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ >
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > Dido.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> > > > That makes four of us at least.
> > > > Here's my pitch,
> > > > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> > > >
> > > > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> > > >
> > > > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@>
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jay ,
> > > >
> > > > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> > > >
> > > > Tod ( Riverboy )
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ >
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Chris and All,
> > > >
> > > > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> > > >
> > > > Jay
> > > >
> > > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Jim H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Chris B
> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> > > > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> > > > Chris B
> > > >
> > > > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> > > >
> > > > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13364 From: Dale Smith Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: Revell smoke & sound units on 0-6-0
Thanks, Nelson.   This is just the kind of information I needed.  It sort convinces me that restoring the sound unit shouldn't be a high priority.  I had a feeling that a pawl flicking a stick could cause a bit of erratic performance and I can see why the unit is missing.  I will do a little cleanup and lubrication on the mechanism and see if I can get the smoke unit to work.   All the parts you identified are there, so maybe I will be successful.  I have seen the exploded diagram, but the labels are a little fuzzy and the parts are also a bit unclear.   It did give me enough information to see what was missing though.  Thanks again.

Dale Smith

Nelson B wrote:
 

There's an exploded view on Tony cook's site: http://ho-scaletrai ns.net/revellhos caletrainsresour ce/id5.html

Curmudgeon was right... it's the pistons themselves that push air up through the smoke unit through a series of passages, with two gaskets that help to maintain a seal. The smoke production is nowhere near what an AF HO unit could produce, but they smoke well enough if the unit hasn't been flooded. The element is wrapped around a fiberglass form that looks like a small piece of cardboard.

The sound unit is just a shaker full of birdshot that is flicked by the pawl on the center axle. It tends to cause surging performance, and most units have worn side rod holes on the geared and center axles from the extra stress if they saw much use. These locos tend to waddle even without wear, and the sound is pretty annoying, so I've removed the shaker as well but have it with the loco for safe keeping.

Nelson

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@. ..> wrote:
>
> I guess the real question then is how well the smoke units worked. The
> diagram in the ad shows fluid at the bottom of the smoke chamber, but
> the coil appears to be at the top. I have looked at the exploded view
> of the 0-6-0T, which is the one I have, and it doesn't seem clear as to
> exactly where the coil is. Are there things that can go wrong within
> the piston assemblies that could foil smoke production. Before I start
> replacing parts, I would like to know how well this worked in a best
> case scenario. Thanks,
>
> Dale
>
> Mike Bauers wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:34 PM, Dale Smith wrote:
> >
> > > I just purchased a Revell 0-6-0 on Ebay, which has a smoke unit.
> > > Unfortunately, the sound unit was removed by the previous owner.
> > > There
> > > is continuity across the smoke winding, and it seems to be getting
> > > power, but no smoke. I am familiar with the Gilbert smoke units, but
> > > there appears to be nothing to push the smoke out. Did the sound
> > > unit,
> > > which is actuated by a pawl on the center driver, work in some way to
> > > push out the smoke on this unit also? Does anyone know whether Revell
> > > parts are available anywhere? Thanks for any information.
> > >
> > > Dale Smith
> >
> > I think the pawl operated a pump in the units.
> >
> > Do you have the 0-6-0 or the 0-6-0t switcher? I have some unneeded
> > parts for the 0-6-0t. I got some units a while back on eBay and will
> > be updating them with DCC and sound.
> >
> > Best to ya,
> > Mike Bauers
> > Milwaukee, Wi
> >
> >
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13365 From: Howard R Garner Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Ebay item of interest
Check out ebay item 250585069317

THIS IS THE MAIN PARTS TO AN "A" AND "B" UNITS. THEY WERE MADE BY "ADAMS
AND SON MODEL FOUNDRY OF CORSICANA, TEXAS". SIDES, FLOOR, ENDS, TOP,
FUEL TANKS.

I have no interest in these, but some of you might

Howard Garner
Group: vintageHO Message: 13366 From: Nelson B Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Sorry to hear about your loss, Jim, and I hope you and your wife find comfort in this time of sadness. My father on Christmas Eve, and it has made it a very difficult winter, so I understand what you're going though.

Nelson
Group: vintageHO Message: 13367 From: Nelson B Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: It's over
Oops, that's supposed to read "my father died on Christmas Eve."

Nelson

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson B" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry to hear about your loss, Jim, and I hope you and your wife find comfort in this time of sadness. My father on Christmas Eve, and it has made it a very difficult winter, so I understand what you're going though.
>
> Nelson
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13368 From: Garry Spear Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Paper Sided Cars
I have listed two paper sided cars on eBay.

One cars has Crazy Crystals sides, the other car has 1 A&P side and 1
HORMEL side. Two cars for the price of one. Can somebody identify
the Manuf. of the sides.

I have 3 Laconia kits listed.

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 13369 From: Russ Shiel Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Sided Cars
Garry...a quick scan of Dave Spanagel's card-sides identifies the Hormel 'Good Food' URT66000 as Red Ball, and the A&P URT 23027 as MR Nov...I recall some discussion on these sides being issued with Model Railroader, but someone with better recall than me will have to tell you which year!
 
The Crazy Crystals ART 531 I didn't see, but I suspect it is Red Ball, which had 513 and 521 with black lettering and sea green outline, as your sides do. 531 might have been an alternative number offered....? Ray?
 
Chrs! Russ


From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 23 February, 2010 8:33:47 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Paper Sided Cars

 

I have listed two paper sided cars on eBay.

One cars has Crazy Crystals sides, the other car has 1 A&P side and 1
HORMEL side. Two cars for the price of one. Can somebody identify
the Manuf. of the sides.

I have 3 Laconia kits listed.

Garry Spear


 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13370 From: Russ Shiel Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Sided Cars - red herring
Ooops! Sorry Garry...fast fingers and didn't check the manufacturer's listing after finding the 'MR Nov' ref. to URT #23027...
 
The herring is Bathgate Models, who also produced URT A&P #23027...
 
Will sleuth further...

Chrs! Russ


From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 23 February, 2010 8:33:47 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Paper Sided Cars

 

I have listed two paper sided cars on eBay.

One cars has Crazy Crystals sides, the other car has 1 A&P side and 1
HORMEL side. Two cars for the price of one. Can somebody identify
the Manuf. of the sides.

I have 3 Laconia kits listed.

Garry Spear


 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13371 From: Russ Shiel Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Sided Cars - another herring
Apologies all...moral...check all lists before replying....
 
Garry's Hormel URT#66000 was one of the Nov. 1943 Model Railroader inclusions...as was A&P URT #23027.
 
Red Ball (?later) did URT #66000, and Bathgate (1944, advertised in MR) also did URT #23027. Still looking for Crazy Crystals ART #531, which from it's appearance, might predate Red Ball...Lockhart did a buff Crazy Water Crystals, but #513. Anyone have a(nother) #531 Crazy Water?
Chrs! Russ


From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 23 February, 2010 8:33:47 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Paper Sided Cars

 

I have listed two paper sided cars on eBay.

One cars has Crazy Crystals sides, the other car has 1 A&P side and 1
HORMEL side. Two cars for the price of one. Can somebody identify
the Manuf. of the sides.


 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13372 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/22/2010
Subject: Re: Paper Sided Cars - another herring
Sorry Russ, can't come up with a manufacturer who did a #531 Crazy
Crystals. Glad you came up with the Morrell and A&P as coming from MR. Seems to be
a popular number for A&P as Main Line had the same number. Red Ball also
did a #501 Crazy Crystal, but nothing definite on a #531, but as you said if
they did a #513, a #521 and now a #501 over the years, they could have done
a fourth number (#531). I'd like to point out though, before it's passed
over and accepted as correct practice that the two MR sides do not belong on
the same car. I wonder if there's another identical car out there, kitbashed
by this same modeler, using the other two MR car sides that were matches
for these sides. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13373 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/23/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hi Sean,
Sorry for the delay, a very few busy days here: First, will get the $ info to you all, just wanted to double check the emails and my list again. Second, of course, will send an open window end to him, just email his address off list and I'll mail it tomorrow afternoon. Say, speaking of a trade, do you have any spare brass Trackside Specialties PRR B-1 boxcab end sill/step castings - I need a set of two - they are not identical, used to be sold seperately in plastic bags with a small TS yellow hang card. Kidding about the trade part, will purchase those as that is all I need to complete building a TS B-1.
W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
>
> Hi W jay
>
> 2 things.. First:
>
> What is my cut due on Jim's parts?
>
> Second, I think I included one too many cab rears in your lot. I did not notice when I took the picture of the lot I sold you that I had picked up the cab back (with the windows molded open) that I planned to include with the other shell I sold.  I wish to trade it with you for some more endframes and cab ends (without the windows molded open) if you would be willing to send the cab end to the other buyer.
>
> Please let me know on both and I will get both off to you immediatly..
>
> Thanks,
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, February 20, 2010 3:14:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
>
>  
> Hi Guys ,
>
> Let me know how much and where to send my donation too .
>
> I'm glad it was a successful venture .
>
> Tod
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 2/20/10, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> >From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
> >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> >Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 1:24 PM
> >
> >
> > 
> >Good work!
> >Pls let me know how to get my share to you, ill have to send the trucks along later inthe wk, as for mssg, if you wouldn't mind printing out my earlier mssg to jim about trains only matter...etc. ?
> >
> >
> >Again, good job!
> ________________________________
>
> >From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
> >Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:49:25 -0000
> >To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> >Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >
> > 
> >OK All, We were successful in getting the lot to give to Jim. I'll print out a new address label and stick it on as soon as it arrives and send it with tracking to Jim as he should also have the pleaseure of opening it as well. Before it arrives, if anyone wants to email me off list with a personal note to include in the package, I will slit it open a bit and slip them in and reseal before mailing.
> >
> >Whew! I made sure we'd win, but on eBay, one never knows if someone else might put in a very high "buy" bid, too! W. Jay W.
> >
> >--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Great!
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...>
> >> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:37:17
> >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >>
> >> Hi All, Just checking in to let you know that everything is on track for the bid for Jim's lot in a couple of hours from now! W. Jay W.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi All,
> >> >
> >> > I will check in here tomorrow AM about two hours before the auction closes to let all know there were no freak snowstorms or floods here in North Jersey and that I'm reday to submit the winning bid. Have a good night! W. Jay W.
> >> >
> >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Chatter from the bench...
> >> > >
> >> > > Go Jay!!!!
> >> > >
> >> > > Take it home!!!
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ >
> >> > > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:52:19
> >> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> >> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >> > >
> >> > > All - I'm at bat and the seller just emailed back to say they would accept a postal m.o. too, as I am not activly PayPal right now. Can't wait to make this happen! W. Jay W.
> >> > >
> >> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Jay was first up, seems like that would be the best way to choose....
> >> > > > Wuddysay Jay?
> >> > > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ >
> >> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:35:50
> >> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Dido.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Ok, I was planning on doing the same thing.
> >> > > > That makes four of us at least.
> >> > > > Here's my pitch,
> >> > > > I'd very muchlike to contribute to a group effort to make this happen. I'll pledge now to send t e winning bidder funds equal to half, a qrtr, or any portion up to $75 bucks cash from me to the winner, whatevers needed to make sure its won for certain so we can all make this happen for Jim. I think a group effort would mean more than if any one of us did it alone.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > My non-rr email is chrisbrannigan@ hotmaillets do this thing for Jim.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ ohio@>
> >> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> >> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Jay ,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I was planning on doing the same , but if you have already bid , I will leave it alone . Let me know , and if you choose not to bid , I wil still bid on the lot .
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Tod ( Riverboy )
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --- On Fri, 2/19/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ >
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> >> > > > Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:51 PM
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi Chris and All,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Jim deserves to add this B unit to his collection. I will bid on the smal lot and send the B unit to him, amd whatever else he wants from it, it is the least we can do for him during this trying time after he has given us so much.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Jay
> >> > > >
> >> > > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
> >> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> >> > > > Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 2:23:56 PM
> >> > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Chris,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I'd love to have that DMC "B" unit with the paper sides ( earliest of the two versions ). However this message is being sent between hospital visits where a family medical crisis is on going . Can't think trains right now. Thanks
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Jim H
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > > From: Chris B
> >> > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> >> > > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:19 PM
> >> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE [2 Attachments]
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hey Jim, it's listed as a baggage car. but this lot looks like it might be a shell of the B unit?
> >> > > > The A unit doesn't have sides, but the listing does close soon, and has no bidders so far....
> >> > > > Chris B
> >> > > >
> >> > > > VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 0 Bids $3.99 Feb-15 09:3
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13374 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: ID these please
The rolls of Copper? I'm guessing, was this something from days past for making what?
I figured maybe rolled up thingies for gondola loads?
The other things I habe no clue, they were in a drawer with steam engine domes and tank car ends.
These are a couple things that were part of a collection I got lst year,
Just trying to figure out some of this stuff.
Thanks for the help guys,

Larry L Doub
Davenport Iowa

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%20trains/IMG_4425.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%20trains/IMG_4426-1.jpg
Group: vintageHO Message: 13375 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
Larry, There were many early models made of copper. While these still
could be gondola loads, my guess is that they're meant to be installed as part
of a copper model, perhaps by trimming to a template included with the kits
of that time.

The photo of the cylindrical piece with the screening looks to possibly be
the interior (the section that first gets inserted in the engine) of a roof
ventilator of a diesel engine. When it's inverted into the roof of an
engine, it sits down right against the roof with the screening being exposed as
part of the roof-line. At least, that's one use I can see for this piece --
as a guess. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13376 From: Wobbly913 Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
The rolls of copper look to me like what is referred to as "shim stock". It is available in steel, brass, stainless steel, copper and perhaps other metals. It is usually available in a variety of thickness. As the name impllies it is for making shims for whatever purpose the user might have.  In this case for making thin copper parts...whatever your heart desires. Being thin and copper I would imagine it would be very maleable.
 
Wobbly913

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, Mr Larry L. Doub <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:

From: Mr Larry L. Doub <larry_l_doub@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] ID these please
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 4:29 AM

The rolls of Copper? I'm guessing, was this something from days past for making what?
I figured maybe rolled up thingies for gondola loads?
The other things I habe no clue, they were in a drawer with steam engine domes and tank car ends.
These are a couple things that were part of a collection I got lst year,
Just trying to figure out some of this stuff.
Thanks for the help guys,

Larry L Doub
Davenport Iowa

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%20trains/IMG_4425.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%20trains/IMG_4426-1.jpg



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Group: vintageHO Message: 13377 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
The rolls of copper are very malable, it can be bent and such, but it's not all that thin, one roll is pretty heavy,
the only thing I didn;t know is what he used it for, I seen nothing about on any cars I have or anything else I looked at that gave any clues to what it was for.
My first thought when i seen it was the springs that some trucks had in them, but then this isn't a springy metal..

the Screen things I thought maybe for something like a brass RS type engine, i do have a shell for one, but it doesn't have one of these on it, I think I have three of these pieces, or so far know of.
Thanks for the Ideas and thoughts so far,
would really be interesting to know exactly what it is.

Larry L Doub
Davenport Iowa

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
>
> The rolls of copper look to me like what is referred to as "shim stock". It is available in steel, brass, stainless steel, copper and perhaps other metals. It is usually available in a variety of thickness. As the name impllies it is for making shims for whatever purpose the user might have.  In this case for making thin copper parts...whatever your heart desires. Being thin and copper I would imagine it would be very maleable.
>  
> Wobbly913
>
> --- On Wed, 2/24/10, Mr Larry L. Doub <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Mr Larry L. Doub <larry_l_doub@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] ID these please
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 4:29 AM
>
>
> The rolls of Copper? I'm guessing, was this something from days past for making what?
> I figured maybe rolled up thingies for gondola loads?
> The other things I habe no clue, they were in a drawer with steam engine domes and tank car ends.
> These are a couple things that were part of a collection I got lst year,
> Just trying to figure out some of this stuff.
> Thanks for the help guys,
>
> Larry L Doub
> Davenport Iowa
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%20trains/IMG_4425.jpg
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/MrAquarium/1-87%20scale%20trains/IMG_4426-1.jpg
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13378 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
The first thing looks like a grommet.  How big is it?

Army tropical boots and boonie hats worn in Vietnam had grommets that had screens in them.  The ones in the hats were about 5/8" overall diameter.

People who build big dollhouses use a copper foil on the walls of the houses to power lamps.  Two flat tapes are put on the wall, then wallpaper goes over them.   The wires for the lamps terminate in a plug with 2 pins.  When the lamp is plugged in, one pin punctures each tape to pick up power.  Just a guess. 
Bill
Group: vintageHO Message: 13379 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
Larry D., and Ray F.W.,

Ray is right about the possible use of those large brass eyelets with the brass screening crimped into them. I found a few with a small old unusual lot of Red Ball samples (four of each of many items) and they are either described in an old 1940's Red Ball catalog or newsletter. Just thinking a bit, they might work well with the old lead Walthers Alco High Hood! They are not the same part that was used later on the Red Ball Alco Road Switcher (at least on mine). Will check after I am done with other paperwork that is crowding my hobby time right now!

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
> Larry, There were many early models made of copper. While these still
> could be gondola loads, my guess is that they're meant to be installed as part
> of a copper model, perhaps by trimming to a template included with the kits
> of that time.
>
> The photo of the cylindrical piece with the screening looks to possibly be
> the interior (the section that first gets inserted in the engine) of a roof
> ventilator of a diesel engine. When it's inverted into the roof of an
> engine, it sits down right against the roof with the screening being exposed as
> part of the roof-line. At least, that's one use I can see for this piece --
> as a guess. Ray F.W.</HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13380 From: John H Date: 2/24/2010
Subject: Re: ID these please
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, BillyDee53@... wrote:
>
> The first thing looks like a grommet. How big is it?
>
> Army tropical boots and boonie hats worn in Vietnam had grommets that had
> screens in them. The ones in the hats were about 5/8" overall diameter.
>
> People who build big dollhouses use a copper foil on the walls of the
> houses to power lamps. Two flat tapes are put on the wall, then wallpaper goes
> over them. The wires for the lamps terminate in a plug with 2 pins. When
> the lamp is plugged in, one pin punctures each tape to pick up power. Just a
> guess.
> Bill
>

Ya knows,

I don't think you are going to come up with a specific model rr use for these as I doubt that's what they were for originally. Maybe if'n you could get into the mind of the modeler you would what he/she had in mind for them.

I agree that the screened thingies look like some sort ventilator for rain coats and/or hats. Seems I remember such things way back when. So far as the rolls of copper,....well I'd venture a guess that someone he knew had this stuff and asked the guy from whence all this stuff came from if he wanted it. At the price of copper, most mechanically or electrically inclined people of the male gender would NOT be able to say no. I may now that I'm in the official geezer age group and have had to downsize living quarters once already but thirty years ago....

Anyway, find a use for them or save them or pass `em on to the next guy.

John Hagen
Group: vintageHO Message: 13381 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: ID: Screened Brass Grommetts AKA Diesel Radiator Screens
Hi John H., All,
I would bet that you are right, that they were not originally manufactured for an HO scale modeling purpose, but Red Ball's M. Dale Newton noticed their resemblance to Diesel Radiator Screens and likely bought a few gross and cataloged them as 42" versions in HO. Attached is a copy of page 38 of his catalog #4 published circa 1947; one appears about midway down the left side of the page. Image from HOSeeker, from collection of HOSeeker.
W. Jay W.


 


From: John H <sprinthag@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, February 24, 2010 5:14:28 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ID these please

 



--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, BillyDee53@. .. wrote:
>
> The first thing looks like a grommet. How big is it?
>
> Army tropical boots and boonie hats worn in Vietnam had grommets that had
> screens in them. The ones in the hats were about 5/8" overall diameter.
>
> People who build big dollhouses use a copper foil on the walls of the
> houses to power lamps. Two flat tapes are put on the wall, then wallpaper goes
> over them. The wires for the lamps terminate in a plug with 2 pins. When
> the lamp is plugged in, one pin punctures each tape to pick up power. Just a
> guess.
> Bill
>

Ya knows,

I don't think you are going to come up with a specific model rr use for these as I doubt that's what they were for originally. Maybe if'n you could get into the mind of the modeler you would what he/she had in mind for them.

I agree that the screened thingies look like some sort ventilator for rain coats and/or hats. Seems I remember such things way back when. So far as the rolls of copper,....well I'd venture a guess that someone he knew had this stuff and asked the guy from whence all this stuff came from if he wanted it. At the price of copper, most mechanically or electrically inclined people of the male gender would NOT be able to say no. I may now that I'm in the official geezer age group and have had to downsize living quarters once already but thirty years ago....

Anyway, find a use for them or save them or pass `em on to the next guy.

John Hagen


  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13382 From: jim heckard Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: question
All,
 
          Due to the impending little snow flurry predicted here in eastern Pennsylvania that has changed some scheduled events I have some time to ask a question and even fill in some information.
 
     I was wondering if any member either won the auction or knew what was up for auction on Ebay item   170446074778   Penn Line P-5a "work in progress".
 
     This was a Trackside Specialties P-5a. According to what I know there were only 48 made. Some were assembled, as is the one I have, and some were kits. It is my understanding that you could find them with two different drives. One was with the Andeco brand.
 
     While I will bow to Jim Waterman, whose father Vince produced the Trackside Specialties brand name., for more information I wanted to note that some of these engines were packed in Penn Line boxes acquired at the auctioning off of Penn Line years ago. I previously had one in kit form that was packed in a plain brown box with plans. While I traded the kit to a friend I still have the factory painted ( by Mr.  V Waterman )  one and plans
 
    An extremely rare, limited in number, vintage item if you got it.
 
                                                             Jim H
 
   
 
 
 
  
Group: vintageHO Message: 13383 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Hi All,
 
I have just purchased a npait of engines yesterday. There was a rare mantua Atlantic brass chassis (slightly altered) a Bowser Mountain steam chest and what appears to be another brass and diecast engine made up of mostly Varney 2-8-0 drive and detail parts.  I purchased a parts lot off of the same seller that looked to have the drivers from both chassis as well.
 
This varney is what I believe to be the rare find. The locomotive looks to me to have been made up of mostly Varney parts and I think the shell might be cast brass, but I am not sure. The large box on top of the firebox is very distinctive and I think I saw an engine in an ad or something before, maybe a catalog, but not as one of the items listed for sale, but mor as an engine on one of the vendors displays. Being that the valve gear, driver axles, motor, and steam chest is clearly varny, I ma enclined to believe I saw it in an old Varney ad or catalog. It is the big box that is sticking in my head...
 
I was hoping for some opinions and possible information that may lead me abck to the photo i remember seeing and where it is. I remember it being a front angled view from the Firemans side, I think.
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Sean
 
Here are links to the Original size photos on my Flickr page: (if you go to the photo page, just above the photo is a tab (ALL SIZES) allowing you to see different sizes, click it and it will take you to a larger photo. The ORIGINAL is the largest.)
 
 
 
 
 
 
The parts lot I purchased as well:
 
 
Below is the photo: (it may get stripped off)
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13384 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question

I tried, but it got too much for me.  Very nice looking model, and I expect it could pull well.  We are at three inches here flurry wise.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 11:19 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] question

 

 

All,

 

          Due to the impending little snow flurry predicted here in eastern Pennsylvania that has changed some scheduled events I have some time to ask a question and even fill in some information.

 

     I was wondering if any member either won the auction or knew what was up for auction on Ebay item   170446074778   Penn Line P-5a "work in progress".

 

     This was a Trackside Specialties P-5a. According to what I know there were only 48 made. Some were assembled, as is the one I have, and some were kits. It is my understanding that you could find them with two different drives. One was with the Andeco brand.

 

     While I will bow to Jim Waterman, whose father Vince produced the Trackside Specialties brand name., for more information I wanted to note that some of these engines were packed in Penn Line boxes acquired at the auctioning off of Penn Line years ago. I previously had one in kit form that was packed in a plain brown box with plans. While I traded the kit to a friend I still have the factory painted ( by Mr.  V Waterman )  one and plans

 

    An extremely rare, limited in number, vintage item if you got it.

 

                                                             Jim H

 

   

 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13385 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question
Hi Jim H.,

I had sent a longer reply after just reading your inquiry, but guess it was lost in "Yahoo Land. Having lost out on a painted Trackside P-5a sold from a Texas collection about nine years ago (though did get the B-1), I was focused on getting this one. Despite bidding against a newer eBayer with a curious method of bidding, partially unveiled with the help of another, (Chuck H.?, thank you for the help) I was able to figure out the newer eBayer's bid pattern and made sure to out bid him without possibly breaking the bank.

As it was, this cost about $9 more than the one I missed long ago, one of my larger eBay purchses, but will be a star of my small collection of PRR electrics, (besides the GG-1's), the Trackside B-1's, International P-5a modified and O-1a and even an early 1960's Bill Schopp etched brass E-44 that assembly was started on.

It should arrive in a couple days, and that was when I was going to ask you and Jim Waterman about the box, but had just assumed that his dad used whatever boxes he had handy, and must have had a suplus of Penn Line ones from his bankruptcy sale purchase.

A few years back, I bought a Trackside Specialties B-1 kit, partially assembled in an Mantua box, with yellow lables affixed to it rubberstamped Trackside Specialties. A photo of that appears in my Plainsman's Album here. The box was also hand labled O-1c, $62.50 and contained the O-1c's pilot trucks and two extra pantographs in addition to the B-1. The original owner must have bought both and switched locomotives. My search for the O-1c in the B-1 box proved fruitless with an uncooperative seller, who seemed to not have had the other, presumabley long lost.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Due to the impending little snow flurry predicted here in eastern Pennsylvania that has changed some scheduled events I have some time to ask a question and even fill in some information.
>
> I was wondering if any member either won the auction or knew what was up for auction on Ebay item 170446074778 Penn Line P-5a "work in progress".
>
> This was a Trackside Specialties P-5a. According to what I know there were only 48 made. Some were assembled, as is the one I have, and some were kits. It is my understanding that you could find them with two different drives. One was with the Andeco brand.
>
> While I will bow to Jim Waterman, whose father Vince produced the Trackside Specialties brand name., for more information I wanted to note that some of these engines were packed in Penn Line boxes acquired at the auctioning off of Penn Line years ago. I previously had one in kit form that was packed in a plain brown box with plans. While I traded the kit to a friend I still have the factory painted ( by Mr. V Waterman ) one and plans
>
> An extremely rare, limited in number, vintage item if you got it.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13386 From: jim heckard Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question
      Glad it's in good hands and by someone who knows what he got and the value of it. And I'm not just talking about what it cost.
 
                              Jim H
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 1:46 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: question

 

Hi Jim H.,

I had sent a longer reply after just reading your inquiry, but guess it was lost in "Yahoo Land. Having lost out on a painted Trackside P-5a sold from a Texas collection about nine years ago (though did get the B-1), I was focused on getting this one. Despite bidding against a newer eBayer with a curious method of bidding, partially unveiled with the help of another, (Chuck H.?, thank you for the help) I was able to figure out the newer eBayer's bid pattern and made sure to out bid him without possibly breaking the bank.

As it was, this cost about $9 more than the one I missed long ago, one of my larger eBay purchses, but will be a star of my small collection of PRR electrics, (besides the GG-1's), the Trackside B-1's, International P-5a modified and O-1a and even an early 1960's Bill Schopp etched brass E-44 that assembly was started on.

It should arrive in a couple days, and that was when I was going to ask you and Jim Waterman about the box, but had just assumed that his dad used whatever boxes he had handy, and must have had a suplus of Penn Line ones from his bankruptcy sale purchase.

A few years back, I bought a Trackside Specialties B-1 kit, partially assembled in an Mantua box, with yellow lables affixed to it rubberstamped Trackside Specialties. A photo of that appears in my Plainsman's Album here. The box was also hand labled O-1c, $62.50 and contained the O-1c's pilot trucks and two extra pantographs in addition to the B-1. The original owner must have bought both and switched locomotives. My search for the O-1c in the B-1 box proved fruitless with an uncooperative seller, who seemed to not have had the other, presumabley long lost.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Due to the impending little snow flurry predicted here in eastern Pennsylvania that has changed some scheduled events I have some time to ask a question and even fill in some information.
>
> I was wondering if any member either won the auction or knew what was up for auction on Ebay item 170446074778 Penn Line P-5a "work in progress".
>
> This was a Trackside Specialties P-5a. According to what I know there were only 48 made. Some were assembled, as is the one I have, and some were kits. It is my understanding that you could find them with two different drives. One was with the Andeco brand.
>
> While I will bow to Jim Waterman, whose father Vince produced the Trackside Specialties brand name., for more information I wanted to note that some of these engines were packed in Penn Line boxes acquired at the auctioning off of Penn Line years ago. I previously had one in kit form that was packed in a plain brown box with plans. While I traded the kit to a friend I still have the factory painted ( by Mr. V Waterman ) one and plans
>
> An extremely rare, limited in number, vintage item if you got it.
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13387 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question
Thank you for your kind comments, Jim,
 
I am attaching a photo of the Trackside Specialties P-5a kit just mentioned, below, for those who did not see it on eBay.  Although I had first seen the Trackside Specialties models as a teen at a Parsippany, NJ church basement show/model rr symposium sponored by the Metropolitan Council of Railroad Clubs in the mid 1960's, they were well beyond my means. 
 
When I started attending train shows in the 1980's, I'd ask about them and only once in a while would someone be familiar with them.  Finally the chance meeting at an NYSME swap meet with the now late Jan Lorenzen after I purchased my first B-1 on eBay provided me with more on their background. 
 
I actually had no idea on how few were made until Jan quoted me the quantities he remembered but inadvertantly omitted the number of P-5a's  I'm glad that you found that number, 48.  His numbers for the others were slightly different: O-1c's - 15,  B-1 - 56, and HC-1's "about 15" but in the sentence, reminded me those numbers in his email were recited from memory, saying (in 2001)  that was about 35 years ago.  In any case, these excellent vinatge models with a wonderful history are truly rare.
 
W Jay W.
 
 


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 2:24:06 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: question

 

      Glad it's in good hands and by someone who knows what he got and the value of it. And I'm not just talking about what it cost.
 
                              Jim H
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 1:46 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: question

 

Hi Jim H.,

I had sent a longer reply after just reading your inquiry, but guess it was lost in "Yahoo Land. Having lost out on a painted Trackside P-5a sold from a Texas collection about nine years ago (though did get the B-1), I was focused on getting this one. Despite bidding against a newer eBayer with a curious method of bidding, partially unveiled with the help of another, (Chuck H.?, thank you for the help) I was able to figure out the newer eBayer's bid pattern and made sure to out bid him without possibly breaking the bank.

As it was, this cost about $9 more than the one I missed long ago, one of my larger eBay purchses, but will be a star of my small collection of PRR electrics, (besides the GG-1's), the Trackside B-1's, International P-5a modified and O-1a and even an early 1960's Bill Schopp etched brass E-44 that assembly was started on.

It should arrive in a couple days, and that was when I was going to ask you and Jim Waterman about the box, but had just assumed that his dad used whatever boxes he had handy, and must have had a suplus of Penn Line ones from his bankruptcy sale purchase.

A few years back, I bought a Trackside Specialties B-1 kit, partially assembled in an Mantua box, with yellow lables affixed to it rubberstamped Trackside Specialties. A photo of that appears in my Plainsman's Album here. The box was also hand labled O-1c, $62.50 and contained the O-1c's pilot trucks and two extra pantographs in addition to the B-1. The original owner must have bought both and switched locomotives. My search for the O-1c in the B-1 box proved fruitless with an uncooperative seller, who seemed to not have had the other, presumabley long lost.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Due to the impending little snow flurry predicted here in eastern Pennsylvania that has changed some scheduled events I have some time to ask a question and even fill in some information.
>
> I was wondering if any member either won the auction or knew what was up for auction on Ebay item 170446074778 Penn Line P-5a "work in progress".
>
> This was a Trackside Specialties P-5a. According to what I know there were only 48 made. Some were assembled, as is the one I have, and some were kits. It is my understanding that you could find them with two different drives. One was with the Andeco brand.
>
> While I will bow to Jim Waterman, whose father Vince produced the Trackside Specialties brand name., for more information I wanted to note that some of these engines were packed in Penn Line boxes acquired at the auctioning off of Penn Line years ago. I previously had one in kit form that was packed in a plain brown box with plans. While I traded the kit to a friend I still have the factory painted ( by Mr. V Waterman ) one and plans
>
> An extremely rare, limited in number, vintage item if you got it.
>
> Jim H
>


  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13388 From: jim heckard Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Trackside Specialties numbers.
Jay, All,
 
             I am very fortunate to have one each of  Trackside Specialties P-5A, O-1c and the B-1 rat that are assembled and painted. I also have been lucky enough to find out from member Jim Waterman,  whose father Vince Waterman owned TS, that my 3 engines are from Mr. Waterman's personal collection.
 
    While I'm sure Jim W has numbers produced in the same range as Jay is stating we are all very close. I had been told by others the P-5a was 48 pcs, the O-1c was 20 and the B-1 was 50 and with the possibility all haven't survived how much lower those numbers might be. I don't have the HC-1 steam engine by TS but the number seems about right
 
     When I first saw this auction I hesitated to mention it as I didn't want people bidding against each other driving the price up so I just was quiet. That's why I ask if any member won it and I am glad one did. It will definitely be in good hands and retained as a rare vintage piece of HO history.
 
                                     Jim H
 
 
 
 
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13389 From: trainliker Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question
You can still view a closed ebay auction - for awhile. I think 30 days. This one still shows the six photos the seller attached.

Two ways:

1) Enter the ebay number in the search field (it's 170446074778 for this item).

2) Use "Advanced search" and enter any search criteria you want and click the "completed items" box. For example, if you enter Penn Line P-5a you will see this one completed auction. (You need to be a member and logged in to use "advanced search".)

Searching completed items is also a good way to try and find out what something has been selling for, if there are enough somethings to have a record of sales.

Chuck Kinzer

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for your kind comments, Jim,
>
> I am attaching a photo of the Trackside Specialties P-5a kit just mentioned, below, for those who did not see it on eBay.  Although I had first seen the Trackside Specialties models as a teen at a Parsippany, NJ church basement show/model rr symposium sponored by the Metropolitan Council of Railroad Clubs in the mid 1960's, they were well beyond my means. 
>
> When I started attending train shows in the 1980's, I'd ask about them and only once in a while would someone be familiar with them.  Finally the chance meeting at an NYSME swap meet with the now late Jan Lorenzen after I purchased my first B-1 on eBay provided me with more on their background. 
>
> I actually had no idea on how few were made until Jan quoted me the quantities he remembered but inadvertantly omitted the number of P-5a's  I'm glad that you found that number, 48.  His numbers for the others were slightly different: O-1c's - 15,  B-1 - 56, and HC-1's "about 15" but in the sentence, reminded me those numbers in his email were recited from memory, saying (in 2001)  that was about 35 years ago.  In any case, these excellent vinatge models with a wonderful history are truly rare.
>
> W Jay W.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 2:24:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: question
>
>  
>       Glad it's in good hands and by someone who knows what he got and the value of it. And I'm not just talking about what it cost.
>  
>                               Jim H
>  
> ----- Original Message -----
> >From: the_plainsman
> >To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> >Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 1:46 PM
> >Subject: [vintageHO] Re: question
> >
> > 
> >Hi Jim H.,
> >
> >I had sent a longer reply after just reading your inquiry, but guess it was lost in "Yahoo Land. Having lost out on a painted Trackside P-5a sold from a Texas collection about nine years ago (though did get the B-1), I was focused on getting this one. Despite bidding against a newer eBayer with a curious method of bidding, partially unveiled with the help of another, (Chuck H.?, thank you for the help) I was able to figure out the newer eBayer's bid pattern and made sure to out bid him without possibly breaking the bank.
> >
> >As it was, this cost about $9 more than the one I missed long ago, one of my larger eBay purchses, but will be a star of my small collection of PRR electrics, (besides the GG-1's), the Trackside B-1's, International P-5a modified and O-1a and even an early 1960's Bill Schopp etched brass E-44 that assembly was started on.
> >
> >It should arrive in a couple days, and that was when I was going to ask you and Jim Waterman about the box, but had just assumed that his dad used whatever boxes he had handy, and must have had a suplus of Penn Line ones from his bankruptcy sale purchase.
> >
> >A few years back, I bought a Trackside Specialties B-1 kit, partially assembled in an Mantua box, with yellow lables affixed to it rubberstamped Trackside Specialties. A photo of that appears in my Plainsman's Album here. The box was also hand labled O-1c, $62.50 and contained the O-1c's pilot trucks and two extra pantographs in addition to the B-1. The original owner must have bought both and switched locomotives. My search for the O-1c in the B-1 box proved fruitless with an uncooperative seller, who seemed to not have had the other, presumabley long lost.
> >
> >W. Jay W.
> >
> >--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@ > wrote:
> >>
> >> All,
> >>
> >> Due to the impending little snow flurry predicted here in eastern Pennsylvania that has changed some scheduled events I have some time to ask a question and even fill in some information.
> >>
> >> I was wondering if any member either won the auction or knew what was up for auction on Ebay item 170446074778 Penn Line P-5a "work in progress".
> >>
> >> This was a Trackside Specialties P-5a. According to what I know there were only 48 made. Some were assembled, as is the one I have, and some were kits. It is my understanding that you could find them with two different drives. One was with the Andeco brand.
> >>
> >> While I will bow to Jim Waterman, whose father Vince produced the Trackside Specialties brand name., for more information I wanted to note that some of these engines were packed in Penn Line boxes acquired at the auctioning off of Penn Line years ago. I previously had one in kit form that was packed in a plain brown box with plans. While I traded the kit to a friend I still have the factory painted ( by Mr. V Waterman ) one and plans
> >>
> >> An extremely rare, limited in number, vintage item if you got it.
> >>
> >> Jim H
> >>
> >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13390 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question: Trackside Specialties PRR P-5a kit
Hi Jim H.,

Who else but possibly the #3 Tracksides Specialties fan behind you and Jim Waterman might have purchased it? It should arrive in another day or two. I missed out on a painted, assembled P-5a being sold in Texas about 8 or so years ago on eBay and was not going to miss this one now; (though did get the assembled and painted TS B-1 out of that collection back then).

I was going to ask you (as you mentioned before about having a kit as well) and Jim Waterman about the P.L. box when it arrived, but simply assumed that his father used whatever box was available and guessed he might have aquired many Penn Line boxes in the large P.L. inventory he purchased at the bankruptcy sale.

A T.S. B-1 partially assembled kit I purchased a few years ago, was packed in a what appears to be a white Mantua brass old-time passenger car box, with large yellow sticker lables which have been rubber stamped with the large Trackside Specialties name and the box hand lettered O-1c with the list price(?) $62.50. And while the box did contain a complete B-1 partially assembled kit, it also contained two extra pantographs and the two T.S. O-1c pilot trucks as well! At one time, a previous owner had both and switched them inadvertantly. All efforts at finding the rare, but incomplete O-1c in the B-1 box were fruitless.

I am glad you have a quantity of 48 models, for the P-5a, as I did not know that before finding the information here. A few years before his passing, I had some brief eMail exchanges with Jan Lorenzen who worked with Vincent Waterman to produce the models, and his email statement on quantities was quote "If I remember the quantities of the O-1 was 15 pieces; B-1 was 56 pieces and the HC-1s was about 15 pieces." He did not give a quantity on the P-5a. Both you and the Brown Book gave an O-1 quantity of 20, so in either case, it is extremely rare and his number of B-1's is slightly higher, 56.

That was back when he sold me a Trackside B-1 body he had mentioned at the NYSME swap meet where I met him in 2001, one that was still left over after 35 years (The Locomotive Workshop, Englishtown, NJ, predominetly an O scale manufacturer). I finally found a pair of Trackside B-1 Sideframes for it about three weeks ago in an original package, now just need the end sill castings to complete that special mate to my other.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> Due to the impending little snow flurry predicted here in eastern Pennsylvania that has changed some scheduled events I have some time to ask a question and even fill in some information.
>
> I was wondering if any member either won the auction or knew what was up for auction on Ebay item 170446074778 Penn Line P-5a "work in progress".
>
> This was a Trackside Specialties P-5a. According to what I know there were only 48 made. Some were assembled, as is the one I have, and some were kits. It is my understanding that you could find them with two different drives. One was with the Andeco brand.
>
> While I will bow to Jim Waterman, whose father Vince produced the Trackside Specialties brand name., for more information I wanted to note that some of these engines were packed in Penn Line boxes acquired at the auctioning off of Penn Line years ago. I previously had one in kit form that was packed in a plain brown box with plans. While I traded the kit to a friend I still have the factory painted ( by Mr. V Waterman ) one and plans
>
> An extremely rare, limited in number, vintage item if you got it.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13391 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question: Trackside Specialties PRR P-5a kit
Jim and all, sory for the duplicate post above, even though it arrived nine hours late. It is the first reply to Jim I posted at 12:39 today and it showed up after 9:00 PM. Earlier this afternoon, when I assumed it was lost (or I had hit the delete button instead of send), ao then I repeated most of the information in another post that went through quickly. I have no idea why that long delay happens occasionally, especially when it was a simple message, without any attchments. W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jim H.,
>
> Who else but possibly the #3 Tracksides Specialties fan behind you and Jim Waterman might have purchased it? It should arrive in another day or two. I missed out on a painted, assembled P-5a being sold in Texas about 8 or so years ago on eBay and was not going to miss this one now; (though did get the assembled and painted TS B-1 out of that collection back then).
>
> I was going to ask you (as you mentioned before about having a kit as well) and Jim Waterman about the P.L. box when it arrived, but simply assumed that his father used whatever box was available and guessed he might have aquired many Penn Line boxes in the large P.L. inventory he purchased at the bankruptcy sale.
>
> A T.S. B-1 partially assembled kit I purchased a few years ago, was packed in a what appears to be a white Mantua brass old-time passenger car box, with large yellow sticker lables which have been rubber stamped with the large Trackside Specialties name and the box hand lettered O-1c with the list price(?) $62.50. And while the box did contain a complete B-1 partially assembled kit, it also contained two extra pantographs and the two T.S. O-1c pilot trucks as well! At one time, a previous owner had both and switched them inadvertantly. All efforts at finding the rare, but incomplete O-1c in the B-1 box were fruitless.
>
> I am glad you have a quantity of 48 models, for the P-5a, as I did not know that before finding the information here. A few years before his passing, I had some brief eMail exchanges with Jan Lorenzen who worked with Vincent Waterman to produce the models, and his email statement on quantities was quote "If I remember the quantities of the O-1 was 15 pieces; B-1 was 56 pieces and the HC-1s was about 15 pieces." He did not give a quantity on the P-5a. Both you and the Brown Book gave an O-1 quantity of 20, so in either case, it is extremely rare and his number of B-1's is slightly higher, 56.
>
> That was back when he sold me a Trackside B-1 body he had mentioned at the NYSME swap meet where I met him in 2001, one that was still left over after 35 years (The Locomotive Workshop, Englishtown, NJ, predominetly an O scale manufacturer). I finally found a pair of Trackside B-1 Sideframes for it about three weeks ago in an original package, now just need the end sill castings to complete that special mate to my other.
>
> W. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
> >
> > All,
> >
> > Due to the impending little snow flurry predicted here in eastern Pennsylvania that has changed some scheduled events I have some time to ask a question and even fill in some information.
> >
> > I was wondering if any member either won the auction or knew what was up for auction on Ebay item 170446074778 Penn Line P-5a "work in progress".
> >
> > This was a Trackside Specialties P-5a. According to what I know there were only 48 made. Some were assembled, as is the one I have, and some were kits. It is my understanding that you could find them with two different drives. One was with the Andeco brand.
> >
> > While I will bow to Jim Waterman, whose father Vince produced the Trackside Specialties brand name., for more information I wanted to note that some of these engines were packed in Penn Line boxes acquired at the auctioning off of Penn Line years ago. I previously had one in kit form that was packed in a plain brown box with plans. While I traded the kit to a friend I still have the factory painted ( by Mr. V Waterman ) one and plans
> >
> > An extremely rare, limited in number, vintage item if you got it.
> >
> > Jim H
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13392 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/25/2010
Subject: Re: question: Trackside Specialties PRR P-5a kit
Now you know why I call them confusers instead of computers...
Don Staton in VA
=====================================================

the_plainsman wrote:
 

Jim and all, sory for the duplicate post above, even though it arrived nine hours late. It is the first reply to Jim I posted at 12:39 today and it showed up after 9:00 PM. Earlier this afternoon, when I assumed it was lost (or I had hit the delete button instead of send), ao then I repeated most of the information in another post that went through quickly. I have no idea why that long delay happens occasionally, especially when it was a simple message, without any attchments. W Jay W.


Group: vintageHO Message: 13394 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
oops.. did not realize that was going out to the whole world...
 
Sorry guys!
 
Sean

Group: vintageHO Message: 13395 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: VINTAGE METAL TRAIN SHELLS FOR HO SCALE
Hi Sean, Ha! What did Don S. just say in the previous post about computers? Anyway, I did copy the fellow's address. The mailer with the GARCO cab end, with open windows, will go out to Mr. Wm. B. about lunchtime -- or whenever they get the roads open, as a little snow fell last night in our valley. W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
>
> oops.. did not realize that was going out to the whole world...
>
> Sorry guys!
>
> Sean
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13396 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Hi All,
 
I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is not my fault.
 
I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I have not formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.
 
Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of a discussion about it and it's possible origin.
 
The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I have received only one responce from HH and that is all. 
 
God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend. 
 
This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening. If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the only other.
 
Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do. 
 
There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members & adminiistrators, I have chosen to stick around a bit longer.  Apparently though, the discussions just won't be started by me.
 
Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand it.
 
Sean
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13397 From: Chris B Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Sean, be of good cheer. Buying from you led me to this group. I have open and filled window Garco sw cab ends you sold me years ago. I was going to offer them when you recently needed one, but I was not the first who was happy to help you out. I didn't respond to your post as I am famously ignorant on vintage steam.
But I read it, and learned more, as I do every time.
Ebay is our vintage ho schoolyard, and sometimes play might get rough, and folks can get bruised.
But if anyone is here, its because they want to learn and share,and while its not always smooth its consistently worth it.

Chris B
From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:22:29 -0800 (PST)
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

 

Hi All,
 
I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is not my fault.
 
I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I have not formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.
 
Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of a discussion about it and it's possible origin.
 
The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I have received only one responce from HH and that is all. 
 
God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend. 
 
This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening. If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the only other.
 
Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do. 
 
There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members & adminiistrators, I have chosen to stick around a bit longer.  Apparently though, the discussions just won't be started by me.
 
Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand it.
 
Sean
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13398 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
You can and will NOT apologize?

Hmmm.

Anyway, if you've noticed, these groups seem to have been a tad slow over the last week or so.
Then, factor in, maybe nobody knows.....



> Hi All,
>
> I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is not my fault.
>
> I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I have not formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.
>
> Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of a discussion about it and it's possible origin.
>
> The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I have received only one responce from HH and that is all. 
>
> God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend. 
>
> This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening. If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the only other.
>
> Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do. 
>
> There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members & adminiistrators, I have chosen to stick around a bit longer.  Apparently though, the discussions just won't be started by me.
>
> Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand it.
>
> Sean
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13399 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
I just went back to your inquiry and took a second look.  I do not have any experience with any of those items displayed except to note that with all of the drive wheels there is a distinct lack of axles.  Do the wheels have square holes for axles to be mounted through the wheels with screws?...  If so then the wheels are definitely Varney.

Everything else in the pictures is either before my time or things with which I have no knowledge.

In my time on this group I have had nothing but pleasant and up building experiences with your messages and with my business dealings with you.  I find you most pleasant to deal with in any contacts I have had with you.  People like you advance the pleasure of modeling and collecting.  It is my sincere wish that you remain as part of this group.  Your participation is good for all of us.  Sometimes we just might not have any information to give so we neglect to respond to you that we have no information.  Sometimes we are tied up with other things.  I missed most of the messages in relation to the difficult experience Jim H. just went through because I was to busy with personal things to read all of my e-mail.  Right now I have just short of 4000 messages in my in-box but this was too important to not respond.  No group survives and progresses without decent people and in my experience you have been one of those decent people.  Hang in there and happy railroading...

Don Staton in VA
======================================================

Sean Naylor wrote:
 
Hi All,
 
I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is not my fault.
 
I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I have not formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.
 
Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of a discussion about it and it's possible origin.
 
The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I have received only one responce from HH and that is all. 
 
God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend. 
 
This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening. If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the only other.
 
Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do. 
 
There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members & adminiistrators, I have chosen to stick around a bit longer.  Apparently though, the discussions just won't be started by me.
 
Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand it.
 
Sean
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13400 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

Hi Sean,

 

I looked, don’t have a clue, did not want to tie up band width, so did not tell you then.  So you indeed must have something old or hand/prototype made maybe.

 

Take care,

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

 

 

Hi All,

 

I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is not my fault.

 

I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I have not formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.

 

Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of a discussion about it and it's possible origin.

 

The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I have received only one responce from HH and that is all. 

 

God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend. 

 

This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening. If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the only other.

 

Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do. 

 

There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members & adminiistrators, I have chosen to stick around a bit longer.  Apparently though, the discussions just won't be started by me.

 

Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand it.

 

Sean

 

 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13401 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
I'm an infrequent contributor to this site, but I find it a little strange that anyone should feel that they have offended anyone--unless someone is mentioned by name in the "offensive" remark. Don't know about you folks, but I've found that over years of writing IMs and emails (especially to women--and you can take that anyway you want!) that you can seldom assume feelings related to a written sentence. Too much can be "read" into the absence of a response, the use of a word out of context, etc., etc. I find it remarkable, in fact, that so much sensitivity is evidenced by a bunch of relatively strange guys chatting about a lot of obsolete and vintage stuff which no one should permit to bend them out of shape emotionally in any case. I'm a retired guy as some of you apparently are and also have close attachments to my train stuff, but I do have a life in other areas!
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 2/26/2010 2:15:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, idioticyahoo@... writes:



You can and will NOT apologize?

Hmmm.

Anyway, if you've noticed, these groups seem to have been a tad slow over the last week or so.
Then, factor in, maybe nobody knows.....



> Hi All,
>
> I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is not my fault.
>
> I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I have not formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.
>
> Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of a discussion about it and it's possible origin.
>
> The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I have received only one responce from HH and that is all. 
>
> God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend. 
>
> This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening. If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the only other.
>
> Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do. 
>
> There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members & adminiistrators, I have chosen to stick around a bit longer.  Apparently though, the discussions just won't be started by me.
>
> Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand it.
>
> Sean
>




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Group: vintageHO Message: 13402 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
trainsnwrcs wrote:
>
> Anyway, if you've noticed, these groups seem to have been a tad slow over the last week or so.
> Then, factor in, maybe nobody knows.....

I often look at photos to see what is being discussed, but my
knowledge about a great deal of the very old items that gets discussed
here is practically nil, so I don't comment.
FWIW, my interest primarily lies in products like Central Valley,
Silver Streak, Ulrich, Ambroid, Athearn and Roundhouse metal, and
similar stuff. I have almost no interest in Varney, Globe, ancient
plastic, or crude cast metal and related kits, so I often skip threads
about those.

--

Rick Jones

Shopping tip: You can get shoes for 85 cents at the bowling alley.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13403 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Sean--just went back to check.  That "box" in front of the cab is a "Turret Housing".  There are a lot of valves on top of the boiler that control various steam-driven accessories. These include the injectors, lubricator, the throttle, dynamo, and various other things depending on the era.  Sometimes these are inside the cab, other times they are out front of the cab with extended valve handles over the backhead.  UP's big engines have a somewhat streamlined cover, the NYC Hudsons  had turret covers that wrapped around the firebox and covered the injectors as well.
 
 
gj
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:52 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

Hi All,
 
I have just purchased a npait of engines yesterday. There was a rare mantua Atlantic brass chassis (slightly altered) a Bowser Mountain steam chest and what appears to be another brass and diecast engine made up of mostly Varney 2-8-0 drive and detail parts.  I purchased a parts lot off of the same seller that looked to have the drivers from both chassis as well.
 
This varney is what I believe to be the rare find. The locomotive looks to me to have been made up of mostly Varney parts and I think the shell might be cast brass, but I am not sure. The large box on top of the firebox is very distinctive and I think I saw an engine in an ad or something before, maybe a catalog, but not as one of the items listed for sale, but mor as an engine on one of the vendors displays. Being that the valve gear, driver axles, motor, and steam chest is clearly varny, I ma enclined to believe I saw it in an old Varney ad or catalog. It is the big box that is sticking in my head...
 
I was hoping for some opinions and possible information that may lead me abck to the photo i remember seeing and where it is. I remember it being a front angled view from the Firemans side, I think.
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Sean
 
Here are links to the Original size photos on my Flickr page: (if you go to the photo page, just above the photo is a tab (ALL SIZES) allowing you to see different sizes, click it and it will take you to a larger photo. The ORIGINAL is the largest.)
 
 
 
 
 
 
The parts lot I purchased as well:
 
 
Below is the photo: (it may get stripped off)
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13404 From: Don Dellmann Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Sean:

Just because a lot of people looked at the picture and no one responded
doesn't mean anything. Probably 39 of those people didn't know, so why
waste time saying so.

Also, we have, like any group, a lot of "lurkers". We have almost 500
members. If 10% of them ever write ONE message we're a lot more active than
most yahoo groups I belong to.

We've had a couple ruffled feathers over the years, but I hope no one ever
takes it personally.

I would like to add, if anyone ever DOES have a problem with another member,
please bring it to my attention off list. We don't want to lose ANYBODY
over a misunderstanding.

Thanks

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] An ID question. Possibly another rare find.


Hi All,

I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few
people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If
I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been
able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have
aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days
of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look
at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is
not my fault.

I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have
ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I have not
formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything
with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.

Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a
particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of
a discussion about it and it's possible origin.

The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I
have received only one responce from HH and that is all.

God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend.

This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something
without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening.
If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason
why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the
only other.

Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a
discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the
best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I
will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here
to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do.

There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more
important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys
are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members &
adminiistrators, I have chosen to stick around a bit longer. Apparently
though, the discussions just won't be started by me.

Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand
it.

Sean
Group: vintageHO Message: 13405 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Hi Sean, Count me in with those who are not as well versed in 1940's and earlier steam, as my magazines don't generally go back before 1947, though have some older catalogs. Most of what I've learned is from the Spanagel book and what I've learned here on those and early Mantua, so generally look to others to learn from on the earlier steam, save from those I have researched and indentified for others over the years by Knapp and Conover. I find that sometimes posts get buried in the midst of other "hot" topics of the day and I sometimes wait myself for a "lull" to begin a new thread, too. But enjoy seeing your discoveries as I'm one who cannot bid for and buy large lots and enjoy a shot at items from them when you turn them over. W. Jay W. Ps. Confirm that the GARCO cab end was mailed to Wm. B. this afternoon.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
>
> Sean--just went back to check. That "box" in front of the cab is a "Turret Housing". There are a lot of valves on top of the boiler that control various steam-driven accessories. These include the injectors, lubricator, the throttle, dynamo, and various other things depending on the era. Sometimes these are inside the cab, other times they are out front of the cab with extended valve handles over the backhead. UP's big engines have a somewhat streamlined cover, the NYC Hudsons had turret covers that wrapped around the firebox and covered the injectors as well.
>
>
> gj
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sean Naylor
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:52 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have just purchased a npait of engines yesterday. There was a rare mantua Atlantic brass chassis (slightly altered) a Bowser Mountain steam chest and what appears to be another brass and diecast engine made up of mostly Varney 2-8-0 drive and detail parts. I purchased a parts lot off of the same seller that looked to have the drivers from both chassis as well.
>
> This varney is what I believe to be the rare find. The locomotive looks to me to have been made up of mostly Varney parts and I think the shell might be cast brass, but I am not sure. The large box on top of the firebox is very distinctive and I think I saw an engine in an ad or something before, maybe a catalog, but not as one of the items listed for sale, but mor as an engine on one of the vendors displays. Being that the valve gear, driver axles, motor, and steam chest is clearly varny, I ma enclined to believe I saw it in an old Varney ad or catalog. It is the big box that is sticking in my head...
>
> I was hoping for some opinions and possible information that may lead me abck to the photo i remember seeing and where it is. I remember it being a front angled view from the Firemans side, I think.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Sean
>
> Here are links to the Original size photos on my Flickr page: (if you go to the photo page, just above the photo is a tab (ALL SIZES) allowing you to see different sizes, click it and it will take you to a larger photo. The ORIGINAL is the largest.)
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4369018436/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4368269091/in/photostream/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4368268705/in/photostream/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4368267895/in/photostream/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4368267621/in/photostream/
>
> The parts lot I purchased as well:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4369015896/in/photostream/
>
> Below is the photo: (it may get stripped off)
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13406 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: question: Trackside Specialties PRR P-5a kit
Jay
 
Glad that a member of the group won it, was hoping it would have been me.
 
The numbers in the later version of the Brown Book are correct, the author communicated with my father and got it straight. I believe Jim Heckard has quoted the correct numbers.
 
As I mentioned on Yardbirds, my father used the PL boxes and inserts for the later kits - we had lots of that stuff around. Your earlier purchase of the B-1 and O-1 parts were in one of his boxes with the yellow labels. I think that rubber stamp is still around here somewhere.
 
I had bid on this one, but was not quite a hungry for it as you. Now, after 40 plus years, will you build it up? It looks complete to me.
Also comes with one of the Pittman motors that should have gone with the PL T-1 that the same seller had up for auction. Did you buy that one too?
 
Jim
Group: vintageHO Message: 13407 From: the_plainsman Date: 2/26/2010
Subject: Re: question: Trackside Specialties PRR P-5a kit
Hi Jim W,

Keep looking! I think it as likely to find the Trackside Specialties PRR electrics mis-described as well, both my B-1 in the O-1c box with O-1c parts and this one were not accuately described with the Trackside Specialties name. I know one B-1 I saw a few years back was listed as made by Alco, too. A year or so ago, I picked up an International O-1a or O-1b body described as something completely different.

An added incentive for me on this one, besides missng one back in 2001, was that there was a 1 in 5 or 6 chance that I met the original purchaser of this kit in 1969 when he was one of a select few engineers running the two Metroliners a day to Washington. Me and two high school buddies saved up for an adventure and after asking on the return trip, were taken up to the cab area and allowed by a friendly engineer to lean in and peer out his tiny cab's window and at the digital speedometer reading 125 mph, flickering to 126 at brief times. Could have been him, eh?

Thanks for the extra information on what are official quantities, I will use those numbers.

That old Trackside Specilaties rubber stamp had quite a workout and good you saved it. It was used on the yellow lables, some instructions and some catalog sheets. And one of those stamped yellow labels does appear on the end of the Penn Line kit box that arrived today containing the P-5a, but the impression is very faded.

Yes, at first glance, the kit appears to be complete, save for one of the Penn Line pantograph insulators, did not check all the mounting hardware yet. A reason why the second motor was in the box might be that although unused, the fiber brush holder of the mounted motor was damaged and the brush off. I think I have a set of those Pittman repair parts here. The second motor possibly from the T-1? No I did not purchase that as the P-5a was a major purchase for me, but noticed the second motor's shaft was very short.

To build it up or not? My intention was to do so, as collections of parts don't excite as many people and can and often do eventually get seperated and lost or even borrowed to fix something else, so the best way to preserve a rare model is to build it as intended, even if left unpainted. If it was purchased in a plastic bag or cigar box it would be an easy decision. But for now I am inclined to keep it unbuilt and at least record it for reference. I just noticed, for example that the Andeco chassis, beautifully machined, is die stamped at one end with the Andeco name as well. So I will have to mull this decision for a while. Meanwhile, I will write up a thorough decription to keep with it in its box.

W. Jay W.








--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Waterman" <Watermaj@...> wrote:
>
> Jay
>
> Glad that a member of the group won it, was hoping it would have been me.
>
> The numbers in the later version of the Brown Book are correct, the author communicated with my father and got it straight. I believe Jim Heckard has quoted the correct numbers.
>
> As I mentioned on Yardbirds, my father used the PL boxes and inserts for the later kits - we had lots of that stuff around. Your earlier purchase of the B-1 and O-1 parts were in one of his boxes with the yellow labels. I think that rubber stamp is still around here somewhere.
>
> I had bid on this one, but was not quite a hungry for it as you. Now, after 40 plus years, will you build it up? It looks complete to me.
>
> Also comes with one of the Pittman motors that should have gone with the PL T-1 that the same seller had up for auction. Did you buy that one too?
>
> Jim
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13408 From: jim heckard Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Saved
Hi W Jay W, All,
 
       Since the weather has pushed a scheduled funeral to Monday from today I wanted to say how happy I am a really rare vintage HO piece was saved. While it definitely is your decision to assemble or leave as a kit I don't feel anything will be lost whatever you decide. That also includes modifications if you so desire. Just keep any original parts you might change.
 
   The part that makes me most happy as a vintage collector is just maybe because of groups like this information was shared by members that allowed others to know these treasures are out there. As I said before I am limited to buying one of each item and I am spread thin on that as I try to collect all the early manufactures so I did not bid on it. Due to lack of funds is why I don't collect freight cars.
 
    I hope that between these Yahoo HO sites and all of us being able to share a little knowledge many more can be kept from being lost for good.
 
                                                        Jim 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13409 From: jim heckard Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Mantua ID MAYBE
Sean, All,
 
    Since I have some free time I was looking more at the auction items you won. Specifically what looks like a pre war Mantua ( to me ) Atlantic boiler, frame, drivers, etc.
 
   I know a number of times we have discussed certain prewar Mantua steam engines. Namely the Consolidation, the Atlantic and the Pacific. This is one of my weakest areas due to a lack of info. One bright spot for me was acquiring a pre war Consy from you and rebuilding it. That filled in a lot of missing information. 
 
   We now know for a fact that a pre war 4-8-2 Mountain frame was produced by Mantua and you were fortunate to get one with the box. This had been listed in some early Mantua catalogs so it is confirmed. The problem is items listed in early Mantua catalogs that seem to have never been produced. One is a fully completed and powered ( not just the frame ) Mantua 4-8-2 Mountain that was described as a beautifully designed item by one person who had seen the prototype. Yet for what ever the reason(s) it never was sold. Maybe the war had something to do with it.
 
  And here in lies the problem especially with pre war Mantua steam. Mantua had two 6 volt pre war motors. A larger one for bigger steam. ( The engines I mentioned above ) I have not found much pre war information about them or the engines they were used in. While there is some including catalogs it's hard to be sure what is truth or "fiction". Add to that two other factors  (1) the war time effort that took valuable metals away  (2) The possibility Mantua used up what ever was already made or in the works  therefore effectively creating many versions of the same basic item.  Remember after the war ( don't know exact year ) the Consolidation was no longer produced and the Atlantic and Pacific were totally redesigned and using 12 volt motors
 
  I hesitate to mention a persons name without permission but hope someone might know this man personally. I think he could answer many of the questions. When I was a member of Dave Spanagel's group, the HOSC&H-SIG  ( HO Scale Collectors & History ), there was a man I consider one of the top Mantua "experts". His name was Frank Bell Jr. of Stamford New York. In fact at that time he had a manuscript ready to publish about Mantua. This was at a time when Greenberg decided NOT to publish anymore about any HO company. If anyone would like to contact Mr. Bell to see if he could answer questions I have his address ( there is no Email address ). I would pass it along off line only. Contact me off site at  jimheck@.... PLEASE use a written letter to contact him.
 
    Sean,    After all of this I can't be more definite but believe some of your "parts" are a pre war Mantua Atlantic but there could be a couple of versions.
 
                                              Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13410 From: Riverboy Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Mantua Tyco Rarity?
Hello All ,
 
I'm not sure if this can be considered vintage or not , so I apologize if it is off topic .
 
I recently came across a Mantua Tyco 1890's combine passenger car marked " Santa Fe & Disneyland , and was looking for any information I can . Obviously it is part of some type of set which probbly included acoach or two , and a Ten Wheeler , but it is only a guess .
 
If anyone has any information , please post it .
 
Thank you .
 
Tod fron Ohio

 


Group: vintageHO Message: 13411 From: Glenn476 Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Tyco Rarity?
I would suspect that is from a set sold in the Disney stores during the earlier days of Disneyland in Anaheim.  Santa Fe sponsored the 3-foot gauge railroad that circled the park.  That was why the locomotives had names associated with Santa Fe.
 
There are three books on the Disney railroads--the first by Michael Broggie chronicles Walt Disney's love of trains; the other two by Steve DeGaetano are a guide to the Disneyland Railroads and one on the "Ward Kimball" locomotive.  I have them but have not read them yet.  gj
----- Original Message -----
From: Riverboy
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:50 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Tyco Rarity?

Hello All ,
 
I'm not sure if this can be considered vintage or not , so I apologize if it is off topic .
 
I recently came across a Mantua Tyco 1890's combine passenger car marked " Santa Fe & Disneyland , and was looking for any information I can . Obviously it is part of some type of set which probbly included acoach or two , and a Ten Wheeler , but it is only a guess .
 
If anyone has any information , please post it .
 
Thank you .
 
Tod fron Ohio

 


Group: vintageHO Message: 13412 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Tyco Rarity?
Be sure to read Michael Broggie's book.  It is extremely interesting.
 
I heard him speak at a local San Luis Obispo Railroad Museum meeting some years back and his stories are fascinating.  He grew up in the Disney working world because his father worked for Disney and built specialized camera equipment.  And as I recall was the one who actually built the 1/8 scale live steam engine Disney rode around the track he had at his house.  When a lot of people interested in watching the little train started showing up at his property that he and his wife didn't seem to know, they moved all that to a Disney lot.  Michael Broggie knew Kimball and all of the rest of the Disney greats of that era.
 
It's a little off topic, but just to digress, it seems that Walt Disney loved to be the engineer on those trains around Disneyland.  When he needed to unwind a little from from work, he would put on an engineer outfit, go to the trains, and tell the regular engineer he was "on a break".  (Nobody argued with Walt Disney and nobody said no to him, you see.)  So there were times when people riding the train never knew that it was Walt Disney himself at the throttle.
 
Four (at least) of those Disney coaches are owned locally where I live and run on a very large loop of track at Santa Margarita Ranch pulled by prototype 3 foot steam engines.  They have completely restored at least one of the cars.  They are built to 5/8 full size and run on 3 foot gauge trucks.
 
Chuck Kinzer
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn476
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Tyco Rarity?

 

I would suspect that is from a set sold in the Disney stores during the earlier days of Disneyland in Anaheim.  Santa Fe sponsored the 3-foot gauge railroad that circled the park.  That was why the locomotives had names associated with Santa Fe.
 
There are three books on the Disney railroads--the first by Michael Broggie chronicles Walt Disney's love of trains; the other two by Steve DeGaetano are a guide to the Disneyland Railroads and one on the "Ward Kimball" locomotive.  I have them but have not read them yet.  gj
----- Original Message -----
From: Riverboy
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:50 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Tyco Rarity?

Hello All ,
 
I'm not sure if this can be considered vintage or not , so I apologize if it is off topic .
 
I recently came across a Mantua Tyco 1890's combine passenger car marked " Santa Fe & Disneyland , and was looking for any information I can . Obviously it is part of some type of set which probbly included acoach or two , and a Ten Wheeler , but it is only a guess .
 
If anyone has any information , please post it .
 
Thank you .
 
Tod fron Ohio

 


Group: vintageHO Message: 13413 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Disney
ckinzer@... wrote:
>
>
> Be sure to read Michael Broggie's book. It is extremely interesting.
>
> I heard him speak at a local San Luis Obispo Railroad Museum meeting
> some years back and his stories are fascinating. He grew up in the
> Disney working world because his father worked for Disney and built
> specialized camera equipment. And as I recall was the one who
> actually built the 1/8 scale live steam engine Disney rode around the
> track he had at his house. When a lot of people interested in
> watching the little train started showing up at his property that he
> and his wife didn't seem to know, they moved all that to a Disney
> lot. Michael Broggie knew Kimball and all of the rest of the Disney
> greats of that era.
>
> It's a little off topic, but just to digress, it seems that Walt
> Disney loved to be the engineer on those trains around Disneyland.
> When he needed to unwind a little from from work, he would put on an
> engineer outfit, go to the trains, and tell the regular engineer he
> was "on a break". (Nobody argued with Walt Disney and nobody said no
> to him, you see.) So there were times when people riding the train
> never knew that it was Walt Disney himself at the throttle.
>
Again off topic , but as the Disney thing is already discussed... have
heard rumors that Disney was a very tough person to his employees...
wonder if there is truth in this? seems he was the nice person in the
media but behind the curtains things were different. Tend to believe
this as I know similar situations from personal experience.

And, concerning the book, does it contain information about the monorail
too? I have several Schuco sets, and I am very curious to learn more
about the development and operation of the first generation ( which I
was lucky to experience toward the end of their existence)

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13414 From: Joe Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Red Ball Flat Car Instructions
I recently purchased a Red Ball Lehigh Valley 56' Open Well Flat Car with Oversize Crane Load. Everything appears to be there except the instructions. Can anyone post the instructions or scan them to me. I would be happy to pay any incurred costs.

Joe (jecnnlly(at)verizon(dot)net
Group: vintageHO Message: 13415 From: Rick Jones Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: Disney
Gerold Eckl wrote:
>
> And, concerning the book, does it contain information about the monorail
> too? I have several Schuco sets, and I am very curious to learn more
> about the development and operation of the first generation ( which I
> was lucky to experience toward the end of their existence)

Yes, it does. It covers all of the Disney trains from all four of
the Disney theme parks. The monorail, the mine train, Casey Jones Jr.,
the Viewliners that ran in the '50s in the area now used by the monorail
and submarine rides... all are covered to some degree.

--

Rick Jones

Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13416 From: jim heckard Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: 6 wheel trucks
Chris, All,
 
         I certainly won't turn down that set of trucks you graciously offered but I will reimburse you for the postage. After taking a very quick look at your pictures I don't think they are Dallas Model Craft. The fly wheel / coil spring / pulley drive set up isn't DMC to me. Don't bet the house on that statement. I seem to recognize the design but have to check to find out exactly who used them but ready to bet money they were cast by Adams and Sons just like DMC items.
 
   While the  B unit members had bought me could remain  a dummy no problem who knows how it would finally end up. No matter this set of trucks will definitely come in handy somewhere. THANKS CHRIS
 
   I sent a couple of pictures of the two versions of powered A units by DMC that I know of. The paper sided version was first and is the single truck drive shown in one of the pictures. I have paperwork to verify this drive as DMC. The second powered version has the raised embossed metal sides ( hard to make out in the pictures ). This has dual spring drive with the motor above and coil spring / pulley belt drive in the middle that powers both trucks.
 
   Another difference in the two versions are the tanks between the trucks ( fuel / air I don't know ). The first or paper sided version is just a formed piece of sheet brass. The 2nd or embossed sided one is a cast brass piece that looks much better.
 
  The major cast parts of both versions were made by Adams & Son. ( I still feel Adams & Son / A&S was more then just the person doing the casting )  The bodies, other then the tanks I just mentioned, are the same although I have found some differences in the type of metals used to cast in.    i.e.  the piece for the back of the body.
 
    The paper sided B unit that will be arriving will fill in an empty space in my collection. Anyone that has other or contrary information please let me know.
 
                                        Jim H
 
 
 
  
 
  
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13417 From: jim heckard Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: 6 wheel trucks
Chris, All,
 
    I sent this small correction a while ago but it must be lost in cyber space.
                                                          
                                                              Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: 6 wheel trucks

Chris, All,
 
         A quick correction / addition to hopefully stop any confusion. When I talk about YOUR pictures showing the spring belt pulley drive system not being DMC I should have added I was talking about the location at the end of the truck and not the coil spring pulley belt drive located in the middle of one DMC version. Two entirely different things.
 
                                                          Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 3:46 PM
Subject: 6 wheel trucks

Chris, All,
 
         I certainly won't turn down that set of trucks you graciously offered but I will reimburse you for the postage. After taking a very quick look at your pictures I don't think they are Dallas Model Craft. The fly wheel / coil spring / pulley drive set up isn't DMC to me. Don't bet the house on that statement. I seem to recognize the design but have to check to find out exactly who used them but ready to bet money they were cast by Adams and Sons just like DMC items.
 
   While the  B unit members had bought me could remain  a dummy no problem who knows how it would finally end up. No matter this set of trucks will definitely come in handy somewhere. THANKS CHRIS
 
   I sent a couple of pictures of the two versions of powered A units by DMC that I know of. The paper sided version was first and is the single truck drive shown in one of the pictures. I have paperwork to verify this drive as DMC. The second powered version has the raised embossed metal sides ( hard to make out in the pictures ). This has dual spring drive with the motor above and coil spring / pulley belt drive in the middle that powers both trucks.
 
   Another difference in the two versions are the tanks between the trucks ( fuel / air I don't know ). The first or paper sided version is just a formed piece of sheet brass. The 2nd or embossed sided one is a cast brass piece that looks much better.
 
  The major cast parts of both versions were made by Adams & Son. ( I still feel Adams & Son / A&S was more then just the person doing the casting )  The bodies, other then the tanks I just mentioned, are the same although I have found some differences in the type of metals used to cast in.    i.e.  the piece for the back of the body.
 
    The paper sided B unit that will be arriving will fill in an empty space in my collection. Anyone that has other or contrary information please let me know.
 
                                        Jim H
 
 
 
  
 
  
Group: vintageHO Message: 13418 From: Chris B Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: 6 wheel trucks [3 Attachments]
Jim,
glad you can use them.  send me an address offline and I'll send them along.

When I first got these trucks from Sean, I remember an online discussion of their origin, but not if it was ever resolved.
I pulled up and attached some old composite pics from that discussion that compared these trucks with your DMC trucks.

I agree their not DMC, based on the truck body construction, with no raised shape for gear clearance in the truck bottom cover;
but fwiw, if you open them up,
the shafts are supported with machined pedestals, similar to those visible in the attached ANDECO ad from HOseeker.

Chris B.

From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 3:46:37 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] 6 wheel trucks [3 Attachments]

 

Chris, All,
 
         I certainly won't turn down that set of trucks you graciously offered but I will reimburse you for the postage. After taking a very quick look at your pictures I don't think they are Dallas Model Craft. The fly wheel / coil spring / pulley drive set up isn't DMC to me. Don't bet the house on that statement. I seem to recognize the design but have to check to find out exactly who used them but ready to bet money they were cast by Adams and Sons just like DMC items.
 
   While the  B unit members had bought me could remain  a dummy no problem who knows how it would finally end up. No matter this set of trucks will definitely come in handy somewhere. THANKS CHRIS
 
   I sent a couple of pictures of the two versions of powered A units by DMC that I know of. The paper sided version was first and is the single truck drive shown in one of the pictures. I have paperwork to verify this drive as DMC. The second powered version has the raised embossed metal sides ( hard to make out in the pictures ). This has dual spring drive with the motor above and coil spring / pulley belt drive in the middle that powers both trucks.
 
   Another difference in the two versions are the tanks between the trucks ( fuel / air I don't know ). The first or paper sided version is just a formed piece of sheet brass. The 2nd or embossed sided one is a cast brass piece that looks much better.
 
  The major cast parts of both versions were made by Adams & Son. ( I still feel Adams & Son / A&S was more then just the person doing the casting )  The bodies, other then the tanks I just mentioned, are the same although I have found some differences in the type of metals used to cast in.    i.e.  the piece for the back of the body.
 
    The paper sided B unit that will be arriving will fill in an empty space in my collection. Anyone that has other or contrary information please let me know.
 
                                        Jim H
 
 
 
  
 
  

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13419 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Re: INQUIRY
I recently bought a new, still in the wrapping Varney, VIRGINIAN HO hopper kit from the '50's with the metal frame.  The metal frame had disintegrated from zinc rot and was useless.  Does anyone have an extra frame for one of these that is still good?

Don Staton in VA
Group: vintageHO Message: 13420 From: Jim Waterman Date: 2/27/2010
Subject: Saved
Jim
 
Agree with your comments. I can safely say that the knowledge of this group has expanded to those of us not as knowledgeable.
 
The downside is that when something really rare comes up, there are more folks out there that know what it is, and more folks competing to buy!
 
Jim
Group: vintageHO Message: 13421 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Tyco Rarity?
A friend of mine had a "Santa Fe & Disneyland" way back in the '70's. I
don't remember what all was in the set, but I have the flat car with open
tanks (early tank car?) from him.

Steve W.
www.prrh.org
www.marx-trains.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Riverboy" <river_dweller_ohio@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 10:50 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Tyco Rarity?


Hello All ,

I'm not sure if this can be considered vintage or not , so I apologize if it
is off topic .

I recently came across a Mantua Tyco 1890's combine passenger car marked "
Santa Fe & Disneyland , and was looking for any information I can .
Obviously it is part of some type of set which probbly included acoach or
two , and a Ten Wheeler , but it is only a guess .

If anyone has any information , please post it .

Thank you .

Tod fron Ohio
Group: vintageHO Message: 13422 From: bigmama856 Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Flat Car Instructions
I'd contact the Manufacturer directly. Usually, they can easily provide full instructions right from their website.
Good Luck
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <jecnnlly@...> wrote:
>
> I recently purchased a Red Ball Lehigh Valley 56' Open Well Flat Car with Oversize Crane Load. Everything appears to be there except the instructions. Can anyone post the instructions or scan them to me. I would be happy to pay any incurred costs.
>
> Joe (jecnnlly(at)verizon(dot)net
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13423 From: nvrr49 Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Flat Car Instructions
I have one, and will scan in the instructions later today.

Kent in KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <jecnnlly@...> wrote:
>
> I recently purchased a Red Ball Lehigh Valley 56' Open Well Flat Car with Oversize Crane Load. Everything appears to be there except the instructions. Can anyone post the instructions or scan them to me. I would be happy to pay any incurred costs.
>
> Joe (jecnnlly(at)verizon(dot)net
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13424 From: bigmama856 Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Lehigh Valley 56' Open Well Flat Car - need instruction
I have some information from the email I received from their warehouse. Hope it helps in the search for those instructions.

here is the actual response:
Re: need instructions a.s.a.p for (listed below)
Sun, February 28, 2010 12:34:33 PMFrom: Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> Add to Contacts
To: Marlene Mahoney <bigmama856@...>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The kit you purchased was manufactured prior to 1975 and the Wabash Valley ownership of Red Ball (WVL never made the kit with load). We cannot supply imstructions from the Howell Day or M Dale Newton era (whichever is appropriate to your kit).

When we made the kit here it was revised with the addition of new castings to form the semiwell. There MAY be some of our era instructions left here. We recently sold the line to LaBelle Woodworking and shipped them remaining inventory but not a stock of instructions. We are in process of cleaning out thar area of warehouse. If you will send a #10 SSAE envelope we will supply you our instruction WHEN and IF possible.

Merle Rice
Model RR Warehouse
PO Box 411
Roanoke, IN 46783




Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today !
If you recieved a confirming order email you may phone 1-800-672-8762 (EST business hours) with credit card info or click here for PayPal (Mastercard/Visa/elctronicCheck payments: https://secure.paypal.com/affil/pal=sales@... . Send your PayPal payment to Sales@... .
Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to hearing from you again.


--- On Sun, 2/28/10, Marlene Mahoney <bigmama856@...> wrote:

> From: Marlene Mahoney <bigmama856@...>
> Subject: need instructions a.s.a.p for (listed below)
> To: sales@...
> Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 10:10 AM
> I
> recently purchased a Red Ball Lehigh Valley 56' Open
> Well Flat Car with Oversize Crane Load. Everything appears
> to be there except the instructions. Where can I obtain
> these instructions ?
>
> Thanks Marlene Mahoney
> email me directly at bigmama856@...
>
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13425 From: Marlene Mahoney Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Fw: need instructions a.s.a.p for (listed below)


-----
The kit you purchased was manufactured prior to 1975 and the Wabash Valley ownership of Red Ball (WVL never made the kit with load). We cannot supply imstructions from the Howell Day or M Dale Newton  era (whichever is appropriate to your kit).

When we made the kit here it was revised with the addition of new castings to form the semiwell. There MAY be some of our era instructions left here. We recently sold the line to LaBelle Woodworking and shipped them remaining inventory but not a stock of instructions. We are in process of cleaning out thar area of warehouse. If you will send a #10 SSAE envelope we will supply you our instruction WHEN and IF possible.

Merle Rice
Model RR Warehouse
PO Box 411
Roanoke, IN 46783




Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are  on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com !  Check it out today !
If you recieved a confirming order email you may phone 1-800-672-8762 (EST business hours) with credit card info or click here for PayPal (Mastercard/Visa/elctronicCheck payments: https://secure.paypal.com/affil/pal=sales@... . Send your PayPal payment to  Sales@... .
  Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse.  We look forward to hearing from you again.


--- On Sun, 2/28/10, Marlene Mahoney <bigmama856@...> wrote:

> From: Marlene Mahoney <bigmama856@...>
> Subject: need instructions a.s.a.p  for  (listed below)
> To: sales@...
> Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 10:10 AM
> I
> recently purchased a Red Ball Lehigh Valley 56' Open
> Well Flat Car with Oversize Crane Load. Everything appears
> to be there except the instructions. Where can I obtain
> these instructions ?
>  
> Thanks  Marlene Mahoney
> email me directly at    bigmama856@...
>
>
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13426 From: rcjge Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Strombecker Rock Island Rocket Train Kit
Group: vintageHO Message: 13427 From: bob d Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: Strombecker Rock Island Rocket Train Kit
I've had it on the "watch list" since it was less than 15 minutes old. I remember the old Stombecker slot cars too. We had those as kids. The old Jag and Ferrari Testa Rosa......... Brings back memories.

Bob D.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
>
> Hope this interests people!?
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260560598160&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
>
> Best,
> Gareth
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13428 From: Sean Naylor Date: 2/28/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Hi All,

First off, I want to apologize for my last post. Sorry for the delay.. I had another computer issue this weekend with another virus on my kids computer.. I just got it back up tonight.
 
 I, in no way, meant to upset anyone with my last post. I guess I was frustrated. I think is my own insecurity that caused me to think that having had no response about my inquiry, it was because I was not liked, instead of it being due to people no knowing what they were looking at. I never imagined that...
 
I guess because I have aquired most of my collection (98%) within the past 6 years, I sort of feel like a second class collector when compared to most of you guys out there that have been collecting for decades. I know we have gotten into discussions in the past about the pros/cons of purchasing on-line vs. at train shows..(and I have no intent of re-hashing it here)
 
The conversations did get heated and I guess I was left with this feeling of not really being worthy. Although.. I have no recolection of who they were with and never formulated any ill opinions of my own about anyone.
 
It might just be because the items I collect are so unusual that they may often not be recognizable. I do'nt know.. Anyway...
 
Thanks for ALL the posted responces. Even letting me know you had no idea was an acnolegment of having left the post which was nice to hear. You see, I do have a life, but it consists of being at work all day in my office with the occasional chat with the office manager and maybe one other person through-out the day. After that I go home to my wife and kids, after 9:00 pm, I put the kids to bed and I play with my eBay listings.   Beyond that, I have you guys and that's about it. I am transplanted into the part of town I live in with all my friends living a minimum of a 40 minute drive away. Not much else to do for a guy like me. I barely drink and I never got into hanging out in bars and clubs. Now that i am married with kids.. I have even less interest in doing that.
 
Thanks again...
 
off to bed now...Sean
 
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13429 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Metal Train Shells
Hi Jim and All,

The package from your friends here at our Vintage HO Operators group should be arriving today or tomorrow by my calculation. The delay was apparently due to the seller in New Hampshire having snowstorm related problems and I received the following message late yesterday, "sorry this has taken so long. We lost power for three days. Your purchase is on the way to the label you sent. It was mailed on 2/26. --- Holly"

W. Jay W.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13430 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Okay, did we decide that the orange SFRD reefer, road number 16142, was a Red Ball?
Or a Megow?
Recall, mine has no maps, cardstock (scribed) ends.

Just received another one, oh, 30 minutes ago.
Three bucks, complete down to the brake wheel.
Same number, SFRD 16142, same paper sides and ends.

This one has a SF Map on one side, Scout on the other.
So, now, whatever these are, I have three different sides on two cars!

Can't take any pictures, camera is in Alaska until late Sunday night.

Dave


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
>
> Varney started his HO printed-side reefer production in 1937, and his
> second reefer (R-2) production choice was a wood sided ATSF Reefer Rr-
> x #16142 ( ACF1922). Inasmuch as it was not until January 1940 that
> the Santa Fe did not start painting either maps or slogans on their
> reefers (or other freight cars) , these early Varney sides could not
> possibly have included either slogans or maps.
>
> We do know that the printed sides of the same car #16142 did have the
> slogans on the post war production, so it is reasonable to presume
> that this subtle addition was made to the original printing when
> Varney again ramped up production, and the "bare" sides on the model
> in question were from the prewar production.
>
> Spanagel's good Varney book needs to have this interesting correction
> noted.
>
> I have my own mystery car: In my own collection is a lovely very
> neatly and expertly built paper-sided HO model of ATSF wood-sided
> reefer 25611- also without slogan or map. The body is a solid block of
> wood. The perfectly-applied paper overlays (sides, ends, roof) have
> very high-grade, high-relief very fine embossing with very precise
> printing. Even the ladders are in very fine raised relief. The ends
> are yellow, separated from the sides with black corner posts- an early
> paint scheme that was disappearing in the late thirties. There are
> also fine wire safety appliances, stirrups, and brake staff. The
> heavily embossed roof is topped with a cardstock running board. The
> hatches and platforms, and the end sills are the only castings. The
> underbody is relatively sophisticated for the time inasmuch as it
> seems to have a full complement of cross members (wood).
>
> The single grab iron on the left end of the side indicates that the
> chosen prototype had not yet had the second grab applied (required c.
> 1935)
>
> I presume that this HO solid ATSF reefer model was produced in the
> thirties. . Whether the model was in fact built in the thirties, I
> also do not know.
>
> I occasionally place this fine model in the midst of a layout string
> of fine Sunshine and Westerfield resin "prototype" cars, and only
> after while do pretty sophisticated observers suddenly pick up this
> "imposter".
>
> I will post a photo when I can do so.
>
> BTW, both the Varney and "mystery" ATSF reefers have their ice hatches
> mistakenly opening to the ends, rather toward the car center- as was
> Santa Fe's standard practice for decades.
>
> Denny
>
>
>
> Denny S. Anspach MD
> Sacramento
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13431 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Good to know Rick,
 
I like all those as well in terms of freight, and roundhouse steam..
 
What is FWIW?
 
Sean


From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 4:12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

 

trainsnwrcs wrote:

>
> Anyway, if you've noticed, these groups seem to have been a tad slow over the last week or so.
> Then, factor in, maybe nobody knows.....

I often look at photos to see what is being discussed, but my
knowledge about a great deal of the very old items that gets discussed
here is practically nil, so I don't comment.
FWIW, my interest primarily lies in products like Central Valley,
Silver Streak, Ulrich, Ambroid, Athearn and Roundhouse metal, and
similar stuff. I have almost no interest in Varney, Globe, ancient
plastic, or crude cast metal and related kits, so I often skip threads
about those.

--

Rick Jones

Shopping tip: You can get shoes for 85 cents at the bowling alley.


Group: vintageHO Message: 13432 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

Duely noted Dave,
 
Thanks,
 
I had not noticed either a slow and as funny as it may be, I never considered the idea that no one knows..
 
Sean

From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 1:47:14 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

 



You can and will NOT apologize?

Hmmm.

Anyway, if you've noticed, these groups seem to have been a tad slow over the last week or so.
Then, factor in, maybe nobody knows.....

> Hi All,
>
> I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is not my fault.
>
> I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I
have not formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.
>
> Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of a discussion about it and it's possible origin.
>
> The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I have received only one responce from HH and that is all. 
>
> God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend. 
>
> This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening. If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the only other.
>
> Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do. 
>
> There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members & adminiistrators,  I have chosen to stick around a bit longer.  Apparently though, the discussions just won't be started by me.
>
> Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand it.
>
> Sean
>

Duely

Group: vintageHO Message: 13433 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Hi W. Jay,
 
Thanks for the input.  Sorry for my delay as my (kids) computer crashed over the weekend and my computer is still down from the virus of the week before. Work on Friday got hectic and i was not able to reply to any posts until now. Funny how I was complaining about no responce and here I go not responding..
 
I looked for the details you asked about as I could swear I had some, but sorry, NO luck.  I may have sold them as they do not fit my models or era.
 
I was too excited about the aquisition to wait to post. You are probably right though..
 
The collection I looked at this weekend had some pretty nice stuff, not too terribly old though. He did have one Mantua brass & cast 1948-52 Atlantic and some nice old silver streak and varney cars. I got excited over those.  Got to work up a bid for his collection now.. My wife is not very happy about that..
 
Sean


From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 7:00:54 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

 

Hi Sean, Count me in with those who are not as well versed in 1940's and earlier steam, as my magazines don't generally go back before 1947, though have some older catalogs. Most of what I've learned is from the Spanagel book and what I've learned here on those and early Mantua, so generally look to others to learn from on the earlier steam, save from those I have researched and indentified for others over the years by Knapp and Conover. I find that sometimes posts get buried in the midst of other "hot" topics of the day and I sometimes wait myself for a "lull" to begin a new thread, too. But enjoy seeing your discoveries as I'm one who cannot bid for and buy large lots and enjoy a shot at items from them when you turn them over. W. Jay W. Ps. Confirm that the GARCO cab end was mailed to Wm. B. this afternoon.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@.. .> wrote:

>
> Sean--just went back to check. That "box" in front of the cab is a "Turret Housing". There are a lot of valves on top of the boiler that control various steam-driven accessories. These include the injectors, lubricator, the throttle, dynamo, and various other things depending on the era. Sometimes these are inside the cab, other times they are out front of the cab with extended valve handles over the backhead. UP's big engines have a somewhat streamlined cover, the NYC Hudsons had turret covers that wrapped around the firebox and covered the injectors as well.
>
>
> gj
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sean Naylor
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 8:52 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have just purchased a npait of engines yesterday. There was a rare mantua Atlantic brass chassis (slightly altered) a Bowser Mountain steam chest and what appears to be another brass and diecast engine made up of mostly Varney 2-8-0 drive and detail parts. I purchased a parts lot off of the same seller that looked to have the drivers from both chassis as well.
>
> This varney is what I believe to be the rare find. The locomotive looks to me to have been made up of mostly Varney parts and I think the shell might be cast brass, but I am not sure. The large box on top of the firebox is very distinctive and I think I saw an engine in an ad or something before, maybe a catalog, but not as one of the items listed for sale, but mor as an engine
on one of the vendors displays. Being that the valve gear, driver axles, motor, and steam chest is clearly varny, I ma enclined to believe I saw it in an old Varney ad or catalog. It is the big box that is sticking in my head...
>
> I was hoping for some opinions and possible information that may lead me abck to the photo i remember seeing and where it is. I remember it being a front angled view from the Firemans side, I think.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Sean
>
> Here are links to the Original size photos on my Flickr page: (if you go to the photo page, just above the photo is a tab (ALL SIZES) allowing you to see different sizes, click it and it will take you to a larger photo. The ORIGINAL is the largest.)
>
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 9977705@N05/ 4369018436/
>
>
href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4368269091/in/photostream/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 9977705@N05/ 4368269091/ in/photostream/
>
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 9977705@N05/ 4368268705/ in/photostream/
>
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 9977705@N05/ 4368267895/ in/photostream/
>
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 9977705@N05/ 4368267621/ in/photostream/
>
> The parts lot I purchased as well:
>
> http://www.flickr.
com/photos/ 9977705@N05/ 4369015896/ in/photostream/
>
> Below is the photo: (it may get stripped off)
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13434 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Point noted Art.
 
I do also have a life in other areas, but for me, my trains and Mustangs are my release.
 
I have a job that sticks me in a corner office with a single window over looking a creek in the woods and a highway up on the hill. beeing a city boy, I have little interest in looking out the window. Though out the day, I may at times speak to one person and that might be it until I get home. I have a lovely wife who loves me, but hates my trains and has no interest in hearing anything about them. I have two small kids who I try to play with as much as I can while I am home and play with my trains during bath-time and after they go to bed.
 
With that said, virtually my only conection with the outside world resides here, on-line. My friends are all raising their own families and are spread out accross town and accross the state.
 
I myself have never been offended by anything said here by anyone. I was just concerned that I had offended someone else, somehow. That is more a result of my lack of my self confidence in human relations that anything else.
 
With that said.. thans for the post!
 
Sean

 


From: "luvprr@..." <luvprr@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 2:45:20 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

 

I'm an infrequent contributor to this site, but I find it a little strange that anyone should feel that they have offended anyone--unless someone is mentioned by name in the "offensive" remark. Don't know about you folks, but I've found that over years of writing IMs and emails (especially to women--and you can take that anyway you want!) that you can seldom assume feelings related to a written sentence. Too much can be "read" into the absence of a response, the use of a word out of context, etc., etc. I find it remarkable, in fact, that so much sensitivity is evidenced by a bunch of relatively strange guys chatting about a lot of obsolete and vintage stuff which no one should permit to bend them out of shape emotionally in any case. I'm a retired guy as some of you apparently are and also have close attachments to my train stuff, but I do have a life in other areas!
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 2/26/2010 2:15:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com writes:



You can and will NOT apologize?

Hmmm.

Anyway, if you've noticed, these groups seem to have been a tad slow over the last week or so.
Then, factor in, maybe nobody knows.....



> Hi All,
>
> I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is not my fault.
>
> I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I have not formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.
>
> Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of a discussion about it and it's possible origin.
>
> The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I have received only one responce from HH and that is all. 
>
> God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend. 
>
> This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening. If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the only other.
>
> Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do. 
>
> There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members & adminiistrators, I have chosen to stick around a bit longer.  Apparently though, the discussions just won't be started by me.
>
> Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand it.
>
> Sean
>




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Group: vintageHO Message: 13435 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Hi Chuck,
Thanks..
 
Guess I jumped the gun a bit.
 
Sean


From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 2:51:02 PM
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

 

Hi Sean,

 

I looked, don’t have a clue, did not want to tie up band width, so did not tell you then.  So you indeed must have something old or hand/prototype made maybe.

 

Take care,

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:22 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

 

 

Hi All,

 

I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is not my fault.

 

I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I have not formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.

 

Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of a discussion about it and it's possible origin.

 

The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I have received only one responce from HH and that is all. 

 

God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend. 

 

This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening. If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the only other.

 

Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do. 

 

There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members & adminiistrators, I have chosen to stick around a bit longer.  Apparently though, the discussions just won't be started by me.

 

Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand it.

 

Sean

 

 


Group: vintageHO Message: 13436 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
Sean Naylor wrote:
>
> What is FWIW?

For What It's Worth...

--

Rick Jones

Just remember ... if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13437 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

Hi Don,
 
Thanks for the reply. I only mentioned the number as there had been no activity on the photo and I was just suprised there was no responce from anyone. When I have posted simular topics in the past, I had often gotten some responce.
 
No worries he by my being offended by anyone. I was just concerned i had offended someone else as I enjoy the discussions and comradary here..
 
Sean
 

 

From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 6:55:51 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

 

Sean:

Just because a lot of people looked at the picture and no one responded
doesn't mean anything. Probably 39 of those people didn't know, so why
waste time saying so.

Also, we have, like any group, a lot of "lurkers". We have almost 500
members. If 10% of them ever write ONE message we're a lot more active than
most yahoo groups I belong to.

We've had a couple ruffled feathers over the years, but I hope no one ever
takes it personally.

I would like to add, if anyone ever DOES have a problem with another member,
please bring it to my attention off list. We don't want to lose ANYBODY
over a misunderstanding.

Thanks

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] An ID question. Possibly another rare find.

Hi All,

I am just a little concerned that at some point I must have offended a few
people. I am not sure, but I have a hunch as to why. Sure I sell on eBay. If
I didn't, I would have never found this place, nor would I have ever been
able to find, let alone afford purchasing the great HO trains I have
aquired. I have no regrets about this. I know some out there miss the days
of the shows and having that in whrer they were able to get the first look
at the deals. Those days are pretty much gone. i can not help that and it is
not my fault.

I can and will not apologize for anything I may have said as nothing I have
ever said has ever been mean or negativly directed at anyone. I have not
formed anything but a good opinion about anyone I have discussed anything
with here within this group. People who know me, know what I am all about.

Yesterday I put out a request for some possible info and a discussion on a
particular engine I have purchased, with the hopes of even the slightest of
a discussion about it and it's possible origin.

The photo has since looked at over 40 times after my post. Since then, I
have received only one responce from HH and that is all.

God Bless you Henry! You are a good friend.

This is not the first time within the past year I have posted something
without receiving a responce, but this one has been the most disheartening.
If any of you have noticed I have not been posting much, this is one reason
why. Within the past two months, family and computer issues have been the
only other.

Every chance I get, when I sell an item to someone and we get into a
discussion about vintage trains, I send them here. I tell them, this is the
best group going if you want to discuss vintage HO and I still mean that. I
will always, as long as I am selling trains, continue to direct buyers here
to discuss their trains. It is the right thing to do.

There are a couple guys out there who are just busy with other more
important things and it completely understandable (Jim H, Jay, Tom you guys
are included here, so please do not worry). For those few members &
adminiistrators, I have chosen to stick around a bit longer. Apparently
though, the discussions just won't be started by me.

Maybe I am over reacting. If so, I am sorry for it. I just don't understand
it.

Sean


Group: vintageHO Message: 13438 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: An ID question. Possibly another rare find.
FWIW= "For What It's Worth"

Mike

Sean Naylor wrote:
>
>
> Good to know Rick,
>
> I like all those as well in terms of freight, and roundhouse steam..
>
> What is FWIW?
>
> Sean
Group: vintageHO Message: 13439 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: More oldies
In addition to the SFRD reefer, I received a Silver Streak NP truss rod boxcar, S-702, complete.
And, an oddity.
Supposed to be a Mantua cardstock side reefer.
And, it is...sort of.
http://hoseeker.net/mantuatycocarinstructions/mantua313refrigneratorcar1955pg2.jpg

It's this, plastic one-piece shell, Kadees glued on, different trucks, and Kahn's sides glued on in place of the metal inserts.

So, theoretically, its a cardboard side Mantua reefer.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13440 From: Russ Shiel Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --

Dave Spanagel's card-sided list has SFRD #16142 in two versions by Varney.
Chrs, Russ

From: trainsnwrcs idioticyahoo@...
 

Okay, did we decide that the orange SFRD reefer, road number 16142, was a Red Ball?
Or a Megow?
Recall, mine has no maps, cardstock (scribed) ends.


 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13441 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
I had to go look.
The 16147 is yellow, no map.
The 16142 is orange, map one side and Scout the other.
Construction (and flyweight) is identical, same scribed cardstock ends.

Very strange.

But, now I have two!

Funny, too, they both have the tenite or black plastic end bems with small coupler pocket.

Dave
>
> Dave Spanagel's card-sided list has SFRD #16142 in two versions by Varney.
> Chrs, Russ
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: trainsnwrcs idioticyahoo@...
>  
> Okay, did we decide that the orange SFRD reefer, road number 16142, was a Red Ball?
> Or a Megow?
> Recall, mine has no maps, cardstock (scribed) ends.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13442 From: rcjge Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Lionel husky bottom cover needed/sought
Hey Guys:

Anyone got one of these they would part with? need to complete a Husky and/or Centercab.

Thanks,
Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13443 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: More oldies
Not a Kahn's.
North American Dispatch, Red Ball sides (even the same number) glued onto a Mantua reefer, plastic no less.
Bottom right corner is the car side:

http://hoseeker.net/redball/redballcatalog03pg07.jpg


>
> In addition to the SFRD reefer, I received a Silver Streak NP truss rod boxcar, S-702, complete.
> And, an oddity.
> Supposed to be a Mantua cardstock side reefer.
> And, it is...sort of.
> http://hoseeker.net/mantuatycocarinstructions/mantua313refrigneratorcar1955pg2.jpg
>
> It's this, plastic one-piece shell, Kadees glued on, different trucks, and Kahn's sides glued on in place of the metal inserts.
>
> So, theoretically, its a cardboard side Mantua reefer.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13444 From: Russ Shiel Date: 3/1/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
Sorry Dave (and guys!)...I must have missed the reference to SFRD #16147...that's a Red Ball side...my mention of two Varney #16142 sides was directly from Dave S's car sides list, below...the Red Ball sides don't have the map. Both Varney sides do. I have the dull version, with boxcar red roof (or is that tuscan, I'm colour-blind...). Dave also listed a #16145. Chrs, Russ
1114 VARNEY R2 ES RA S.F.R.D. 16142 ORANGE LIKE R2 42 .S. - DULLER COLORS
1115 VARNEY R2 ES RA S.F.R.D. 16142 ORANGE SCOUT/MAP REVERSE 40 S, RRX
1116 VARNEY R2 EC RA S.F.R.D. 16145 ORANGE SANTA FE LT 41 WS, THE SCOUT FOR ECONOMICAL TRAVEL WEST, CURVED LINE MAP OPP
1117 REDBALL #182 EC RA S.F.R.D. 16147 ORANGE SANTA FE HERALD LEFT 42 S, DIMEN. DATA AND BLT. 4 32 ON RT, CLASS RrX


From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 2 March, 2010 1:24:50 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --

 


I had to go look.
The 16147 is yellow, no map.
The 16142 is orange, map one side and Scout the other.
Construction (and flyweight) is identical, same scribed cardstock ends.

Very strange.

But, now I have two!

Funny, too, they both have the tenite or black plastic end bems with small coupler pocket.

Dave

>
> Dave Spanagel's card-sided list has SFRD #16142 in two versions by Varney.
> Chrs, Russ
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: trainsnwrcs idioticyahoo@ ...
>  
> Okay, did we decide that the orange SFRD reefer, road number 16142, was a Red Ball?
> Or a Megow?
> Recall, mine has no maps, cardstock (scribed) ends.
>


 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13445 From: bigmama856 Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Flat Car Instructions
Glad to see you received the assistance needed in getting those instructions. Checking blogspot from time to time will also help.
Have a safe day, Sir.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
>
> I have one, and will scan in the instructions later today.
>
> Kent in KC
> nvrr49.blogspot.com
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <jecnnlly@> wrote:
> >
> > I recently purchased a Red Ball Lehigh Valley 56' Open Well Flat Car with Oversize Crane Load. Everything appears to be there except the instructions. Can anyone post the instructions or scan them to me. I would be happy to pay any incurred costs.
> >
> > Joe (jecnnlly(at)verizon(dot)net
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13446 From: toytrain13 Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Red Ball Wagon Top cars
Hello- I see that EBay currently lists (1) a B&O wagon-top boxcar, M-33, and (2) a B&O wagon-top covered hopper car, N-34. I think that the basic car bodies will be the typical Red-Ball built up wood, but how is the "wagon-top" effect achieved on these cars. A foil overlay? Cast sides and tops? I don't see these cars in the HO Seeker catalogs (although I might have missed them). Thanks for your help- Richard White
Group: vintageHO Message: 13447 From: jim heckard Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: He's back
       
 
      I received the package this morning containing the paper sided Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . I want to thank everyone who was part of bidding, winning and purchasing this Ebay auction item for me.
 
     The B unit is in excellent shape and even the paper sides are in good shape. It should not take very much to put it back as close to original as possible and add it to my collection. Finding the time at the moment will be the hard part. It definitely will fill in a missing space.
 
   The other items are a plus. The major cast parts for a DMC A unit are there. Nose, roof and back.  No nicks, cracks or missing chunks.  Add to that a Kasiner full size dome car ( with dome and floor ) and a Sampson smooth side "shorty" body . Haven't checked out what it is yet but think it's a diner.
 
    Again THANK YOU.  I am available again to help if I can. Anyone is welcome to visit also.
 
                                                             Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13448 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back
Welcome back Jim...
Don Staton in VA
==============================================

jim heckard wrote:
 

       
 
      I received the package this morning containing the paper sided Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . I want to thank everyone who was part of bidding, winning and purchasing this Ebay auction item for me.
 
     The B unit is in excellent shape and even the paper sides are in good shape. It should not take very much to put it back as close to original as possible and add it to my collection. Finding the time at the moment will be the hard part. It definitely will fill in a missing space.
 
   The other items are a plus. The major cast parts for a DMC A unit are there. Nose, roof and back.  No nicks, cracks or missing chunks.  Add to that a Kasiner full size dome car ( with dome and floor ) and a Sampson smooth side "shorty" body . Haven't checked out what it is yet but think it's a diner.
 
    Again THANK YOU.  I am available again to help if I can. Anyone is welcome to visit also.
 
                                                             Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13449 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: ATSF Reefer without map or slogan. Was: Re:Card-Sided Cars --
1) ATSF S.F.R.D. reefer #16142 with Scout/Map sides is Varney #R-2
Post War, or.... is a copy of same.

2) ATSF S.F.R.D reefer #16142 without either slogan or map on sides is
Varney #R-2 Pre-war (or at least pre-1940), or.... is a copy of same.

I do not think that Spanagel's list makes this required differentiation.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento
Group: vintageHO Message: 13450 From: dickybee2000 Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Mystery GN boxcar
A couple of weeks ago I purchased one and only one freight car at a swap meet. My first though was it was a Silver Streak model but some things don't fit that thought. It is a forty foot double sheathed car with nicely preprinted sides lettered GN 26274. The sides appear to be a laminate as opposed to a single basswood scribed piece. The height is less than a Silver Streak kit and the ends are wood. The underframe (this doesn't mean the buider didn't change it) consists of a flat piece of wood with two sets of queenposts and four truss rods. The bolster underframe end casting has a nice rectangular opening. No heavy SS type center sill is included. The doors are cast metal reproductions of a wood door. Each corner also has two small angle braces. The roof looks like it has the Silver Streak type roof ribs neatly applied.

The original builder did a nice job and included metal arch bar trucks and horn/hook couplers. The wheels are pre-RP25 but not pizza cutter style. The interior floor has printed lines in the door area to simulate individual boards. My guess it is a late fifties/early sixties model but I don't know. Any suggestions. I've checked some of the archived files but haven't found this one yet.

Thank you
Dick Berry
Warsaw, Indiana
Group: vintageHO Message: 13451 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Hello Dick,
 
Is it possible to get a digital image?  Most cell phones even take them if you do not have a camera.
 
 Thanks,
 Sean


From: dickybee2000 <rberry673@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 3:36:56 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery GN boxcar

 

A couple of weeks ago I purchased one and only one freight car at a swap meet. My first though was it was a Silver Streak model but some things don't fit that thought. It is a forty foot double sheathed car with nicely preprinted sides lettered GN 26274. The sides appear to be a laminate as opposed to a single basswood scribed piece. The height is less than a Silver Streak kit and the ends are wood. The underframe (this doesn't mean the buider didn't change it) consists of a flat piece of wood with two sets of queenposts and four truss rods. The bolster underframe end casting has a nice rectangular opening. No heavy SS type center sill is included. The doors are cast metal reproductions of a wood door. Each corner also has two small angle braces. The roof looks like it has the Silver Streak type roof ribs neatly applied.

The original builder did a nice job and included metal arch bar trucks and horn/hook couplers. The wheels are pre-RP25 but not pizza cutter style. The interior floor has printed lines in the door area to simulate individual boards. My guess it is a late fifties/early sixties model but I don't know. Any suggestions. I've checked some of the archived files but haven't found this one yet.

Thank you
Dick Berry
Warsaw, Indiana


Group: vintageHO Message: 13452 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back, Package Arrived
Hi Jim,

Whew! I and the rest of the crew involved can exhale and breath now that the package has finally reached you. Glad to read everything else was of interest too. One question, the seller Holly, noted in her description, that the "NOSE IS BRASS, MARKED ADAMS & SON - MODEL FOUNDRY - CORSICANA, TX ON INSIDE." Are all of these Dallas noses marked the same way? Also, The Adams & Son advertising I have spotted including one picturing the front of what looks to be a fairly new corrugated metal structure indicates they were located in Wichita, KS. So it seems they were in Corsicana, Texas first. Just interesting to note, and possibly why there was a strong Texas connection with some of their work for Dallas and GARCO.

W. Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I received the package this morning containing the paper sided Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . I want to thank everyone who was part of bidding, winning and purchasing this Ebay auction item for me.
>
> The B unit is in excellent shape and even the paper sides are in good shape. It should not take very much to put it back as close to original as possible and add it to my collection. Finding the time at the moment will be the hard part. It definitely will fill in a missing space.
>
> The other items are a plus. The major cast parts for a DMC A unit are there. Nose, roof and back. No nicks, cracks or missing chunks. Add to that a Kasiner full size dome car ( with dome and floor ) and a Sampson smooth side "shorty" body . Haven't checked out what it is yet but think it's a diner.
>
> Again THANK YOU. I am available again to help if I can. Anyone is welcome to visit also.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13453 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Wagon Top cars
HiRichard W., These are very interesting later day Red Ball kits, and are to be constructed unlike any of the earlier R.B. boxcar kits. Construction is much like the prototype, panel by panel. I forget the exact number, but for discussion, say there are about 24 individual fully detailed cast white metal flat panels. Each is to be bent over a dowel of the proper radius, forming an unbroken side and half-roof panel. Each panel is to be joined to the next in succession, forming the half car body, then the other half is constructed and joined. Just like the prototype, the covered hopper is constructed in the same manner, except that special cast car side end and roof panels are supplied. Last week there was an almost complete boxcar for sale on eBay and the photograph of the partially assembled body is clear enough to see what's going on. I have not assembled mine yet, - a good challenge for a skilled and patient model craftsman. W. Jay. W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...> wrote:
>
> Hello- I see that EBay currently lists (1) a B&O wagon-top boxcar, M-33, and (2) a B&O wagon-top covered hopper car, N-34. I think that the basic car bodies will be the typical Red-Ball built up wood, but how is the "wagon-top" effect achieved on these cars. A foil overlay? Cast sides and tops? I don't see these cars in the HO Seeker catalogs (although I might have missed them). Thanks for your help- Richard White
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13454 From: jim heckard Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back, Package Arrived
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:46 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: He's back, Package Arrived

 

Hi Jim,

Whew! I and the rest of the crew involved can exhale and breath now that the package has finally reached you. Glad to read everything else was of interest too. One question, the seller Holly, noted in her description, that the "NOSE IS BRASS, MARKED ADAMS & SON - MODEL FOUNDRY - CORSICANA, TX ON INSIDE." Are all of these Dallas noses marked the same way? Also, The Adams & Son advertising I have spotted including one picturing the front of what looks to be a fairly new corrugated metal structure indicates they were located in Wichita, KS. So it seems they were in Corsicana, Texas first. Just interesting to note, and possibly why there was a strong Texas connection with some of their work for Dallas and GARCO.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
>
>
> I received the package this morning containing the paper sided Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . I want to thank everyone who was part of bidding, winning and purchasing this Ebay auction item for me.
>
> The B unit is in excellent shape and even the paper sides are in good shape. It should not take very much to put it back as close to original as possible and add it to my collection. Finding the time at the moment will be the hard part. It definitely will fill in a missing space.
>
> The other items are a plus. The major cast parts for a DMC A unit are there. Nose, roof and back. No nicks, cracks or missing chunks. Add to that a Kasiner full size dome car ( with dome and floor ) and a Sampson smooth side "shorty" body . Haven't checked out what it is yet but think it's a diner.
>
> Again THANK YOU. I am available again to help if I can. Anyone is welcome to visit also.
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13455 From: jim heckard Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back, Package Arrived
 
W Jay W,
 
    I sent back your message by mistake with no answer as I hit send and didn't mean to. Itchy trigger finger.
 
    The seller was right in that the noses were all cast brass. The A&S name however is actually on the underside of the cast aluminum? roofs and is marked ( cast in raised letters ) Adams and Sons - Model Foundry - Corsicana, Texas as you stated and not on the nose. All I have seen are the same lettering and in the same place.
 
   As for the A&S Wichita, Kansas address, I can't tell you much about that. I can tell you both DMC (Dallas Model Craft ) and GARCO ( H J Garrett ) had Dallas, Texas addresses but different streets. Not being up on Texas geography I don't know how close Corsicana was to Dallas.
 
                                    Jim H
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:46 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: He's back, Package Arrived

 

Hi Jim,

Whew! I and the rest of the crew involved can exhale and breath now that the package has finally reached you. Glad to read everything else was of interest too. One question, the seller Holly, noted in her description, that the "NOSE IS BRASS, MARKED ADAMS & SON - MODEL FOUNDRY - CORSICANA, TX ON INSIDE." Are all of these Dallas noses marked the same way? Also, The Adams & Son advertising I have spotted including one picturing the front of what looks to be a fairly new corrugated metal structure indicates they were located in Wichita, KS. So it seems they were in Corsicana, Texas first. Just interesting to note, and possibly why there was a strong Texas connection with some of their work for Dallas and GARCO.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
>
>
> I received the package this morning containing the paper sided Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . I want to thank everyone who was part of bidding, winning and purchasing this Ebay auction item for me.
>
> The B unit is in excellent shape and even the paper sides are in good shape. It should not take very much to put it back as close to original as possible and add it to my collection. Finding the time at the moment will be the hard part. It definitely will fill in a missing space.
>
> The other items are a plus. The major cast parts for a DMC A unit are there. Nose, roof and back. No nicks, cracks or missing chunks. Add to that a Kasiner full size dome car ( with dome and floor ) and a Sampson smooth side "shorty" body . Haven't checked out what it is yet but think it's a diner.
>
> Again THANK YOU. I am available again to help if I can. Anyone is welcome to visit also.
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13456 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back, Package Arrived
Lennard Stewart wrote:

          Hi Jim and Others

            
Corsicana is about 50 or 60 miles south of Dallas.
Lennard Stewart
Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/


jim heckard wrote:
 

 
W Jay W,
 
    I sent back your message by mistake with no answer as I hit send and didn't mean to. Itchy trigger finger.
 
    The seller was right in that the noses were all cast brass. The A&S name however is actually on the underside of the cast aluminum? roofs and is marked ( cast in raised letters ) Adams and Sons - Model Foundry - Corsicana, Texas as you stated and not on the nose. All I have seen are the same lettering and in the same place.
 
   As for the A&S Wichita, Kansas address, I can't tell you much about that. I can tell you both DMC (Dallas Model Craft ) and GARCO ( H J Garrett ) had Dallas, Texas addresses but different streets. Not being up on Texas geography I don't know how close Corsicana was to Dallas.
 
                                    Jim H
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:46 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: He's back, Package Arrived

 

Hi Jim,

Whew! I and the rest of the crew involved can exhale and breath now that the package has finally reached you. Glad to read everything else was of interest too. One question, the seller Holly, noted in her description, that the "NOSE IS BRASS, MARKED ADAMS & SON - MODEL FOUNDRY - CORSICANA, TX ON INSIDE." Are all of these Dallas noses marked the same way? Also, The Adams & Son advertising I have spotted including one picturing the front of what looks to be a fairly new corrugated metal structure indicates they were located in Wichita, KS. So it seems they were in Corsicana, Texas first. Just interesting to note, and possibly why there was a strong Texas connection with some of their work for Dallas and GARCO.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
>
>
> I received the package this morning containing the paper sided Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . I want to thank everyone who was part of bidding, winning and purchasing this Ebay auction item for me.
>
> The B unit is in excellent shape and even the paper sides are in good shape. It should not take very much to put it back as close to original as possible and add it to my collection. Finding the time at the moment will be the hard part. It definitely will fill in a missing space.
>
> The other items are a plus. The major cast parts for a DMC A unit are there. Nose, roof and back. No nicks, cracks or missing chunks. Add to that a Kasiner full size dome car ( with dome and floor ) and a Sampson smooth side "shorty" body . Haven't checked out what it is yet but think it's a diner.
>
> Again THANK YOU. I am available again to help if I can. Anyone is welcome to visit also.
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13457 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: He's back, Package Arrived
Jim H, I just looked it up, Corsicana, Texas is 55 miles south of Dallas, so definitely in the neighborhood. Interestingly, one of Corsicanna's major indusries in the town of 22,000 is a ductile and gray iron foundry, and has been since the 1860's. Wonder if that is where Adams first gained experience in foundry work, though with a different metal? W. Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
>
> W Jay W,
>
> I sent back your message by mistake with no answer as I hit send and didn't mean to. Itchy trigger finger.
>
> The seller was right in that the noses were all cast brass. The A&S name however is actually on the underside of the cast aluminum? roofs and is marked ( cast in raised letters ) Adams and Sons - Model Foundry - Corsicana, Texas as you stated and not on the nose. All I have seen are the same lettering and in the same place.
>
> As for the A&S Wichita, Kansas address, I can't tell you much about that. I can tell you both DMC (Dallas Model Craft ) and GARCO ( H J Garrett ) had Dallas, Texas addresses but different streets. Not being up on Texas geography I don't know how close Corsicana was to Dallas.
>
> Jim H
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:46 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: He's back, Package Arrived
>
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Whew! I and the rest of the crew involved can exhale and breath now that the package has finally reached you. Glad to read everything else was of interest too. One question, the seller Holly, noted in her description, that the "NOSE IS BRASS, MARKED ADAMS & SON - MODEL FOUNDRY - CORSICANA, TX ON INSIDE." Are all of these Dallas noses marked the same way? Also, The Adams & Son advertising I have spotted including one picturing the front of what looks to be a fairly new corrugated metal structure indicates they were located in Wichita, KS. So it seems they were in Corsicana, Texas first. Just interesting to note, and possibly why there was a strong Texas connection with some of their work for Dallas and GARCO.
>
> W. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I received the package this morning containing the paper sided Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . I want to thank everyone who was part of bidding, winning and purchasing this Ebay auction item for me.
> >
> > The B unit is in excellent shape and even the paper sides are in good shape. It should not take very much to put it back as close to original as possible and add it to my collection. Finding the time at the moment will be the hard part. It definitely will fill in a missing space.
> >
> > The other items are a plus. The major cast parts for a DMC A unit are there. Nose, roof and back. No nicks, cracks or missing chunks. Add to that a Kasiner full size dome car ( with dome and floor ) and a Sampson smooth side "shorty" body . Haven't checked out what it is yet but think it's a diner.
> >
> > Again THANK YOU. I am available again to help if I can. Anyone is welcome to visit also.
> >
> > Jim H
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13458 From: Russ Shiel Date: 3/2/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
GN #26274 I have as a Silver Streak car, currently being reissued by Ye Olde Huff and Puff. I think there are pics on the website. Chrs, Russ


From: dickybee2000 <rberry673@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 3 March, 2010 7:06:56 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery GN boxcar

 

A couple of weeks ago I purchased one and only one freight car at a swap meet. My first though was it was a Silver Streak model but some things don't fit that thought. It is a forty foot double sheathed car with nicely preprinted sides lettered GN 26274. The sides appear to be a laminate as opposed to a single basswood scribed piece. The height is less than a Silver Streak kit and the ends are wood. The underframe (this doesn't mean the buider didn't change it) consists of a flat piece of wood with two sets of queenposts and four truss rods. The bolster underframe end casting has a nice rectangular opening. No heavy SS type center sill is included. The doors are cast metal reproductions of a wood door. Each corner also has two small angle braces. The roof looks like it has the Silver Streak type roof ribs neatly applied.

The original builder did a nice job and included metal arch bar trucks and horn/hook couplers. The wheels are pre-RP25 but not pizza cutter style. The interior floor has printed lines in the door area to simulate individual boards. My guess it is a late fifties/early sixties model but I don't know. Any suggestions. I've checked some of the archived files but haven't found this one yet.

Thank you
Dick Berry
Warsaw, Indiana


 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13459 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 3/3/2010
Subject: New MRH Released
Free for your enjoyment...
 
The March/April edition of Model Railroad Hobbyist eZine is now available free at www.model-railroad-hobbyist.com
 
Richard Bale
News editor
Group: vintageHO Message: 13460 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/3/2010
Subject: Question about emailing this group with my vintage Ho eBay listings.
Over the last few weeks I have bee selling Vintage HO on eBay. I
notified this group about the first listings. I have got two more
paper boxes with vintage HO. I note 2 Thomas tank cars, pre war
Walthers metal cars, Ideal new kits and built cars, etc. I don't want
to spam the group with all my selling details, but would maybe send a
note with the real nice items, like a NEW IN the BOX Laconia Chateau
Martin wine car kit.

Like right now I have an Athearn Shell kit on eBay.

I will be asking questions about some of the cars as I can not identify them.

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 13461 From: Jim Waterman Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: New MRH Released
really nice publication! George Sellios article is first rate.
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13462 From: Chris B Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: more about Adams & Son O ga
Found previous doing google search for Adams & Son. 

Also found following info on their O ga work, with a notation that Lindsey Adams entered the O Scale Hall of Fame in 2005.  Others may already know all this, I'm still learning about the early days of scale model diesel mfgring, so I'm always looking for more information.

Chris B.

--------
following text is clipped to feature info on Adams & Sons.

full text at: http://users.foxvalley.net/~osn/BobSmith1993.htm

-------------

Manufacturer, Central Locomotive Works (1947-1998)

Best known for developing a line of cast brass models of first generation diesels. Later went on to pioneer etched brass locomotives with lost-wax brass detailing (both steam and diesel locomotives.

EMD switcher — oddly enough, Bob Smith's NW2 "design" was quite a complicated business venture and the drawings & research were also the basis for the General Models NW2 (under Mathews, which later evolved to be the All-Nation Line NW2) and the Lionel NW2.


Bob often worked with Lindsey Adams of Adams & Son. Adams did Bob's pattern work. Their relationship fell apart when there was a dispute involving a Hines Lines project (later General Models). [see OSN 93 "Old Reliable (or the Trials and Tribulations of an O Scale Historian)" by John S. Fischer for details.


Bob remained friendly with both Lindsey Adams and Mathews of General Models after some of the "dust" had settled. In the interim, the CLW NW2 did appeared to be duplicated by both Lionel and a now All-Nation Line model. There were some major differences between the models: The Bob Smith/CLW was brass and one to two pounds heavier than the GM/All-Nation Line "zamac" model, and the Lionel model was RTR with a drive very similar to the CLW model (Lionel modified the drive after the first few years). In the 1970s, several modelers reviewed both with comparisons and while they rated assembly & construction easier on the All-Nation version, most preferred the operation of the heavier CLW version, no one chose to review any of the Lionel variants for OSN so other than to comment on its genesis, there was little notice given to it.


Bob Smith was both an industrious man. While he may have been discouraged with this early model he did continue to develop this switcher and many more to come. He chose to use another pattern maker after Adams & Son once their relationship fell apart, but he did not allow early setbacks to sour him on either the industry or his new business, He maintained a good relationship with all parties involved and moved on to the next project.


----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 8:51:38 AM
Subject: Adams & Son O ga ABBA set on ebay

Anyone noticed this listing for an Adams & Son O ga ABBA set on ebay?  photo from listing attached with the inside marking with the Corsicana location.

from the description: "Up for auction is a set of 4 ABBA brass locomotives.These were made by Adams & Son Model Foundry of Texas.The two A units are powered.The A units measure 17 1/2 inches long and weigh 11 pounds each.The B units are non powered.The B units weigh 5 pounds each and measure 17 1/2 inches long.When together these units measure 70 inches long.I imagine these are from the 1950s-60s era.These are all marked for the cold Water Canyon railroad.These fit on O gauge track.One of the A units is missing the horns on top and is missing a handrail above one of the ladders.One of the seams is coming loose on the same A unit as you can see in the close up photo.These are all stamped A&S on the bottom.I can also see the name Adams & Son Model Foundry up inside the units."

From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 9:30:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: He's back, Package Arrived

 

Jim H, I just looked it up, Corsicana, Texas is 55 miles south of Dallas, so definitely in the neighborhood. Interestingly, one of Corsicanna's major indusries in the town of 22,000 is a ductile and gray iron foundry, and has been since the 1860's. Wonder if that is where Adams first gained experience in foundry work, though with a different metal? W. Jay W.

--- In
vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:

>
>
> W Jay W,
>
> I sent back your message by mistake with no answer as I hit send and didn't mean to. Itchy trigger finger.
> The seller was right in that the noses were all cast brass. The A&S name however is actually on the underside of the cast aluminum? roofs and is marked ( cast in raised letters ) Adams and Sons - Model Foundry - Corsicana, Texas as you stated and not on the nose. All I have seen are the same lettering and in the same place.
>
> As for the A&S Wichita, Kansas address, I can't tell you much about that. I can tell you both DMC (Dallas Model Craft ) and GARCO ( H J Garrett ) had Dallas, Texas addresses but different streets. Not being up on Texas geography I don't know how close Corsicana was to Dallas.
>
> Jim H
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com

> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:46 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: He's back, Package Arrived

> Hi Jim,
> Whew! I and the rest of the crew involved can exhale and breath now that the package has finally reached you. Glad to read everything else was of interest too. One question, the seller Holly, noted in her description, that the "NOSE IS BRASS, MARKED ADAMS & SON - MODEL FOUNDRY - CORSICANA, TX ON INSIDE." Are all of these Dallas noses marked the same way? Also, The Adams & Son advertising I have spotted including one picturing the front of what looks to be a fairly new corrugated metal structure indicates they were located in Wichita, KS. So it seems they were in Corsicana, Texas first. Just interesting to note, and possibly why there was a strong Texas connection with some of their work for Dallas and GARCO.
>
> W. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
  > > I received the package this morning containing the paper sided Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . I want to thank everyone who was part of bidding, winning and purchasing this Ebay auction item for me.
> >
> > The B unit is in excellent shape and even the paper sides are in good shape. It should not take very much to put it back as close to original as possible and add it to my collection. Finding the time at the moment will be the hard part. It definitely will fill in a missing space.
> >
> > The other items are a plus. The major cast parts for a DMC A unit are there. Nose, roof and back. No nicks, cracks or missing chunks. Add to that a Kasiner full size dome car ( with dome and floor ) and a Sampson smooth side "shorty" body . Haven't checked out what it is yet but think it's a diner.
> > Again THANK YOU. I am available again to help if I can. Anyone is welcome to visit also.
> >
> > Jim H


  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13463 From: Chris B Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Adams & Son O ga ABBA set on ebay
Anyone noticed this listing for an Adams & Son O ga ABBA set on ebay?  photo from listing attached with the inside marking with the Corsicana location.

from the description: "Up for auction is a set of 4 ABBA brass locomotives.These were made by Adams & Son Model Foundry of Texas.The two A units are powered.The A units measure 17 1/2 inches long and weigh 11 pounds each.The B units are non powered.The B units weigh 5 pounds each and measure 17 1/2 inches long.When together these units measure 70 inches long.I imagine these are from the 1950s-60s era.These are all marked for the cold Water Canyon railroad.These fit on O gauge track.One of the A units is missing the horns on top and is missing a handrail above one of the ladders.One of the seams is coming loose on the same A unit as you can see in the close up photo.These are all stamped A&S on the bottom.I can also see the name Adams & Son Model Foundry up inside the units."

From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 9:30:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: He's back, Package Arrived

 

Jim H, I just looked it up, Corsicana, Texas is 55 miles south of Dallas, so definitely in the neighborhood. Interestingly, one of Corsicanna's major indusries in the town of 22,000 is a ductile and gray iron foundry, and has been since the 1860's. Wonder if that is where Adams first gained experience in foundry work, though with a different metal? W. Jay W.

--- In
vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:

>
>
> W Jay W,
>
> I sent back your message by mistake with no answer as I hit send and didn't mean to. Itchy trigger finger.
> The seller was right in that the noses were all cast brass. The A&S name however is actually on the underside of the cast aluminum? roofs and is marked ( cast in raised letters ) Adams and Sons - Model Foundry - Corsicana, Texas as you stated and not on the nose. All I have seen are the same lettering and in the same place.
>
> As for the A&S Wichita, Kansas address, I can't tell you much about that. I can tell you both DMC (Dallas Model Craft ) and GARCO ( H J Garrett ) had Dallas, Texas addresses but different streets. Not being up on Texas geography I don't know how close Corsicana was to Dallas.
>
> Jim H
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com

> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:46 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: He's back, Package Arrived

> Hi Jim,
> Whew! I and the rest of the crew involved can exhale and breath now that the package has finally reached you. Glad to read everything else was of interest too. One question, the seller Holly, noted in her description, that the "NOSE IS BRASS, MARKED ADAMS & SON - MODEL FOUNDRY - CORSICANA, TX ON INSIDE." Are all of these Dallas noses marked the same way? Also, The Adams & Son advertising I have spotted including one picturing the front of what looks to be a fairly new corrugated metal structure indicates they were located in Wichita, KS. So it seems they were in Corsicana, Texas first. Just interesting to note, and possibly why there was a strong Texas connection with some of their work for Dallas and GARCO.
>
> W. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
  > > I received the package this morning containing the paper sided Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . I want to thank everyone who was part of bidding, winning and purchasing this Ebay auction item for me.
> >
> > The B unit is in excellent shape and even the paper sides are in good shape. It should not take very much to put it back as close to original as possible and add it to my collection. Finding the time at the moment will be the hard part. It definitely will fill in a missing space.
> >
> > The other items are a plus. The major cast parts for a DMC A unit are there. Nose, roof and back. No nicks, cracks or missing chunks. Add to that a Kasiner full size dome car ( with dome and floor ) and a Sampson smooth side "shorty" body . Haven't checked out what it is yet but think it's a diner.
> > Again THANK YOU. I am available again to help if I can. Anyone is welcome to visit also.
> >
> > Jim H



  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13464 From: Chris B Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Adams & Son O ga E unit [1 Attachment]
Attachments :
Found a MTJ page (topic "Adams and unknowns") with a single photo of an Adams O ga E -unit, unpainted with sheet brass sides (attached)
Further down the page a postings refers to six O ga PA units, half of which have CLW cast in the shells, the others with Adams & Son Corsicana. 
One of the six, a painted cast O ga PA is pictured, without identifying which name is cast into the shell.

From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 9:04:35 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] more about Adams & Son O ga [1 Attachment]

 

Found previous doing google search for Adams & Son. 

Also found following info on their O ga work, with a notation that Lindsey Adams entered the O Scale Hall of Fame in 2005.  Others may already know all this, I'm still learning about the early days of scale model diesel mfgring, so I'm always looking for more information.

Chris B.

--------
following text is clipped to feature info on Adams & Sons.

full text at: http://users. foxvalley. net/~osn/ BobSmith1993. htm

------------ -

Manufacturer, Central Locomotive Works (1947-1998)

Best known for developing a line of cast brass models of first generation diesels. Later went on to pioneer etched brass locomotives with lost-wax brass detailing (both steam and diesel locomotives.

EMD switcher — oddly enough, Bob Smith's NW2 "design" was quite a complicated business venture and the drawings & research were also the basis for the General Models NW2 (under Mathews, which later evolved to be the All-Nation Line NW2) and the Lionel NW2.


Bob often worked with Lindsey Adams of Adams & Son. Adams did Bob's pattern work. Their relationship fell apart when there was a dispute involving a Hines Lines project (later General Models). [see OSN 93 "Old Reliable (or the Trials and Tribulations of an O Scale Historian)" by John S. Fischer for details.


Bob remained friendly with both Lindsey Adams and Mathews of General Models after some of the "dust" had settled. In the interim, the CLW NW2 did appeared to be duplicated by both Lionel and a now All-Nation Line model. There were some major differences between the models: The Bob Smith/CLW was brass and one to two pounds heavier than the GM/All-Nation Line "zamac" model, and the Lionel model was RTR with a drive very similar to the CLW model (Lionel modified the drive after the first few years). In the 1970s, several modelers reviewed both with comparisons and while they rated assembly & construction easier on the All-Nation version, most preferred the operation of the heavier CLW version, no one chose to review any of the Lionel variants for OSN so other than to comment on its genesis, there was little notice given to it.


Bob Smith was both an industrious man. While he may have been discouraged with this early model he did continue to develop this switcher and many more to come. He chose to use another pattern maker after Adams & Son once their relationship fell apart, but he did not allow early setbacks to sour him on either the industry or his new business, He maintained a good relationship with all parties involved and moved on to the next project.


----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 8:51:38 AM
Subject: Adams & Son O ga ABBA set on ebay

Anyone noticed this listing for an Adams & Son O ga ABBA set on ebay?  photo from listing attached with the inside marking with the Corsicana location.

from the description: "Up for auction is a set of 4 ABBA brass locomotives. These were made by Adams & Son Model Foundry of Texas.The two A units are powered.The A units measure 17 1/2 inches long and weigh 11 pounds each.The B units are non powered.The B units weigh 5 pounds each and measure 17 1/2 inches long.When together these units measure 70 inches long.I imagine these are from the 1950s-60s era.These are all marked for the cold Water Canyon railroad.These fit on O gauge track.One of the A units is missing the horns on top and is missing a handrail above one of the ladders.One of the seams is coming loose on the same A unit as you can see in the close up photo.These are all stamped A&S on the bottom.I can also see the name Adams & Son Model Foundry up inside the units."

From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 9:30:19 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: He's back, Package Arrived

 

Jim H, I just looked it up, Corsicana, Texas is 55 miles south of Dallas, so definitely in the neighborhood. Interestingly, one of Corsicanna's major indusries in the town of 22,000 is a ductile and gray iron foundry, and has been since the 1860's. Wonder if that is where Adams first gained experience in foundry work, though with a different metal? W. Jay W.

--- In
vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:

>
>
> W Jay W,
>
> I sent back your message by mistake with no answer as I hit send and didn't mean to. Itchy trigger finger.
> The seller was right in that the noses were all cast brass. The A&S name however is actually on the underside of the cast aluminum? roofs and is marked ( cast in raised letters ) Adams and Sons - Model Foundry - Corsicana, Texas as you stated and not on the nose. All I have seen are the same lettering and in the same place.
>
> As for the A&S Wichita, Kansas address, I can't tell you much about that. I can tell you both DMC (Dallas Model Craft ) and GARCO ( H J Garrett ) had Dallas, Texas addresses but different streets. Not being up on Texas geography I don't know how close Corsicana was to Dallas.
>
> Jim H
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: the_plainsman
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com

> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:46 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: He's back, Package Arrived

> Hi Jim,
> Whew! I and the rest of the crew involved can exhale and breath now that the package has finally reached you. Glad to read everything else was of interest too. One question, the seller Holly, noted in her description, that the "NOSE IS BRASS, MARKED ADAMS & SON - MODEL FOUNDRY - CORSICANA, TX ON INSIDE." Are all of these Dallas noses marked the same way? Also, The Adams & Son advertising I have spotted including one picturing the front of what looks to be a fairly new corrugated metal structure indicates they were located in Wichita, KS. So it seems they were in Corsicana, Texas first. Just interesting to note, and possibly why there was a strong Texas connection with some of their work for Dallas and GARCO.
>
> W. Jay W.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
  > > I received the package this morning containing the paper sided Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . I want to thank everyone who was part of bidding, winning and purchasing this Ebay auction item for me.
> >
> > The B unit is in excellent shape and even the paper sides are in good shape. It should not take very much to put it back as close to original as possible and add it to my collection. Finding the time at the moment will be the hard part. It definitely will fill in a missing space.
> >
> > The other items are a plus. The major cast parts for a DMC A unit are there. Nose, roof and back. No nicks, cracks or missing chunks. Add to that a Kasiner full size dome car ( with dome and floor ) and a Sampson smooth side "shorty" body . Haven't checked out what it is yet but think it's a diner.
> > Again THANK YOU. I am available again to help if I can. Anyone is welcome to visit also.
> >
> > Jim H



  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13465 From: jim heckard Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Adams & Son
Chris B, W Jay W, All,
 
         Thanks for all the A&S ( Adams & Son )  information including O gauge. It adds a lot to Adams & Son and just how involved they were with model trains in general. I had always thought that A&S had a lot more to do with early vintage HO then at first thought but all you have shared shows they were deeply involved and their name was associated with many companies and gauges. I still wonder how many model train companies they were tied to and not just the company doing the casting. Could be a great story for some one to compile.
 
   With all the info I'm starting to see the A&S name could actually be as important to model trains as others like Varney, Athearn, Polk and Mantua. 
 
                                Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13466 From: RalphB Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
Well, I won the bidding on eBay and my "Casey Jones" arrived safely a couple of weeks ago. It's complete except for the markers and the bell. It was sold as "parts," but I have actually got it running - barely. Drivers probably need a good cleaning, but the motor did turn the wheels on the test track. I shut the power off when I noticed just the tiniest whiff of smoke coming out of the engine cab.

I sent a message to Yardbird Trains to see about a replacement crosshead (one is damaged, but apparently useable). I'll have to take the whole thing apart again and see if the motor is okay; those older motors really did get hot and the insulation in this one may be on its last legs. We'll see.

And there is another one up on eBay now, but at a slightly higher price than I paid. Seller says the motor works fine when he touches leads directly to it, but it won't work when it's on the track. Looking at the photo I noticed plastic wheels showing on the front tender truck and brass ones showing on the rear truck. Don't suppose he's getting a short across the tender frame, is he? ;-)

Ralph B

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, I wrote:
>
> there's one on E-Bay now (Iten #110496152197) and I'm thinking of bidding. I just don't want to end up in a bidding war with anyone in this group.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13467 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
Ralph, all,

I have a few Casey Jones engines myself. One of mine had a smoking issue too from the motor. Seems the brushes were touching the boiler.

Both trucks on the tender should have the brass wheels on the left side of the engine (The fireman's side). That eBay engine probably doesn't run for that reason!

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Fri, 3/5/10, RalphB <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:

From: RalphB <Alpvalsys@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney "Casey Jones"
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, March 5, 2010, 2:47 PM

 

Well, I won the bidding on eBay and my "Casey Jones" arrived safely a couple of weeks ago. It's complete except for the markers and the bell. It was sold as "parts," but I have actually got it running - barely. Drivers probably need a good cleaning, but the motor did turn the wheels on the test track. I shut the power off when I noticed just the tiniest whiff of smoke coming out of the engine cab.

I sent a message to Yardbird Trains to see about a replacement crosshead (one is damaged, but apparently useable). I'll have to take the whole thing apart again and see if the motor is okay; those older motors really did get hot and the insulation in this one may be on its last legs. We'll see.

And there is another one up on eBay now, but at a slightly higher price than I paid. Seller says the motor works fine when he touches leads directly to it, but it won't work when it's on the track. Looking at the photo I noticed plastic wheels showing on the front tender truck and brass ones showing on the rear truck. Don't suppose he's getting a short across the tender frame, is he? ;-)

Ralph B

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, I wrote:
>
> there's one on E-Bay now (Iten #110496152197) and I'm thinking of bidding. I just don't want to end up in a bidding war with anyone in this group.

Group: vintageHO Message: 13468 From: dickybee2000 Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Thanks to Russ regarding identification of this boxcar. I haven't yet found a picture on the site but did go through the master list of Silver Streak cars in the files again. Under kit number 218 I did find number 26247.

My original thought was that this was a SS car. However, it is not as tall as several other single door cars in my collection of random stuff. Secondly, the doors are of better quality than most I've seen and they too are shorter. Given both of these observations, did Silver Streak make two different sizes of single sheathed boxcars?

The underframe details could have been done as an alteration by the builder. The roof ribs, and short walkways to the running board are Silver Streak. The door tracks appear similar.

Did Silver Streak make a shorter (in Height) boxcar with truss rods. If so, when.

I have taken a picture of the car between two newer cars so that the size relationship can be seen. Now if I can figure out how to load it and if it is clear enough you can all look.

Thank you,
Dick Berry
Warsaw, Indiana
Group: vintageHO Message: 13469 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Yes, they did.
I have an NP Silver Streak Truss Rod Boxcar, SS number S-702.
I have a non-truss rod autobox next to it as I type, totally different door castings, about 1/8" shorter in height basically same length.

Dave
>
> Thanks to Russ regarding identification of this boxcar. I haven't yet found a picture on the site but did go through the master list of Silver Streak cars in the files again. Under kit number 218 I did find number 26247.
>
> My original thought was that this was a SS car. However, it is not as tall as several other single door cars in my collection of random stuff. Secondly, the doors are of better quality than most I've seen and they too are shorter. Given both of these observations, did Silver Streak make two different sizes of single sheathed boxcars?
>
> The underframe details could have been done as an alteration by the builder. The roof ribs, and short walkways to the running board are Silver Streak. The door tracks appear similar.
>
> Did Silver Streak make a shorter (in Height) boxcar with truss rods. If so, when.
>
> I have taken a picture of the car between two newer cars so that the size relationship can be seen. Now if I can figure out how to load it and if it is clear enough you can all look.
>
> Thank you,
> Dick Berry
> Warsaw, Indiana
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13470 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/5/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
http://hoseeker.net/silverstreakinformation/silverstreaksaleslist1960pg2.jpg

Not sure about a GN, but someone could have cut down some GN standards sides for an NP truss rod car.





> Yes, they did.
> I have an NP Silver Streak Truss Rod Boxcar, SS number S-702.
> I have a non-truss rod autobox next to it as I type, totally different door castings, about 1/8" shorter in height basically same length.
>
> Dave
> >
> > Thanks to Russ regarding identification of this boxcar. I haven't yet found a picture on the site but did go through the master list of Silver Streak cars in the files again. Under kit number 218 I did find number 26247.
> >
> > My original thought was that this was a SS car. However, it is not as tall as several other single door cars in my collection of random stuff. Secondly, the doors are of better quality than most I've seen and they too are shorter. Given both of these observations, did Silver Streak make two different sizes of single sheathed boxcars?
> >
> > The underframe details could have been done as an alteration by the builder. The roof ribs, and short walkways to the running board are Silver Streak. The door tracks appear similar.
> >
> > Did Silver Streak make a shorter (in Height) boxcar with truss rods. If so, when.
> >
> > I have taken a picture of the car between two newer cars so that the size relationship can be seen. Now if I can figure out how to load it and if it is clear enough you can all look.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Dick Berry
> > Warsaw, Indiana
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13471 From: dickybee2000 Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Thank you for the reference picturing the NP kit. That's the car I own but mine has GN sides. Yes, the builder could have cut down sides from one of Silver Streak's taller single sheathed cars and used the NP kit for the base.

It does seem unusual to me that they would only have one truss rod boxcar with a lower profile in their line. Does anyone know if more cars were produced? In those days, even now for that matter, manufacturers add all kinds of paint schemes to get enough revenue to justify the kit.

Whatever the case, I'll clean up the model, add new trucks/wheels, change couplers and have a good looking car to run with my current stuff. The parts salvaged will go in the box so some day someone else can ponder what I did but at least they'll have some record. By the way, box is generic as no box was included with my swap meet purchase.

Dick Berry
Group: vintageHO Message: 13472 From: jim heckard Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: package arrived
Dear S (Chris B) Claus,
 
     Christmas in March. How nice. Your gift arrived safely today and much appreciated. The set of trucks will definitely be utilized but I must add to the list of need to be done for now.
 
 
                                                     Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13473 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Mystery GN boxcar
Dick, I did a comprehensive listing on Silver Streak; Chuck H. uploaded the
spread sheet to the files. The whole line can be found there. Besides
your NP box car, there was also a Colorado Southern truss rod reefer and a GN
truss rod reefer.
Ray Wetzel</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13474 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Friction Clutches, Fluid Drives and Planetary Transmissions
Hi All,

I suspect one of our members was very pleased to win tonight's eBay auction for a new old stock, hard to find, Tomhar Fluid Drive (plus a nice Varney NW-2 switcher add on geared truck). Having searched for the Tomhar, I can report that is only the second or third I've seen on eBay in quite a few years. Besides the Tomhar unit, these Friction Clutches, Fluid Drives and Planetary Transmission accessories were quite the rage in the 1950's and were offered by:

hobbytown of Boston, who made several models of friction clutches from the 1950's on, and at least one was still available until recently as an option to the RS-3 when Howard Mosely operated the firm.

The next most popular were the Jerry Martin "Centrificlutches" manufactured by American Beauty of passenger car fame. They came in two basic models, large diameter for the Varney F-3 and John English Alco FA units, and a smaller one for the Varney EMD NW-2 switcher. These had softer rubber fingers that wear after a few years of use and can be repaired with rubber washer material, MR stated.

W & T Models, of Lincoln Park, NJ, noted more for their two versions of a unique motorized track cleaning car, offered a beautifully machined friction clutch combined with planetary transmission. This listed at $4.95.

Kadee, of coupler fame, offered a fully assembled and filled "Snap-on Fluid Drive Unit" while they were still located in Reseda, CA. Mine has leaked its fluid contents into the cellophane wrap, but the plastic outer box and paper instruction contained the spill! It seems to indicate S.A.E. 40 oil is used but heavier may be used as well, it says, to suit the load being pulled by the owners locomotive. List price was $3.75 and the packaging is stamped "for D.C. "60"

Revell incorporated an all plastic centrifugal clutch into some of their diesels, but not offered as an accessory for others.

There were one or two other firms that may have either advertised or produced them in the 1950's. Can anyone add to the list?
_________

Over 20 years later, two other firms addressed modifying the then popular Athearn locomotives for smoother starts and stops, Ernest with their popular and easy to install truck re-gearing kits and K&T Enterprises with a coplex 16 plastic part "Heiden Transmission" for all Athearn Diesel Locomotives.

W. Jay W.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13475 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Strange eBay listing
One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Brass-EHF-Virginian-2-8-8-8-4-Varney-1936-Model_W0QQitemZ190378502168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Toys_Hobbies_Model_Railways?hash=item2c53716818

Frank Bongiovanni
Group: vintageHO Message: 13476 From: tom leen Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Hi Frank,
I'm not an officianado of brass models, but $18,000, seems to be way out of line to me.
Just for the fun of it write to the seller and see if it's a mistake.
Tom Leen

--- On Sun, 3/7/10, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:

From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 4:14 AM

 
One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay. com/Brass- EHF-Virginian- 2-8-8-8-4- Varney-1936- Model_W0QQitemZ1 90378502168QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZAU _Toys_Hobbies_ Model_Railways? hash=item2c53716 818

Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO Message: 13477 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Did Varney ever make big engines like this?  Varney Made parts and encourged modelers to kit bash their engine of choice. 

Garry Spear

On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 11:14 PM, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
 

One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Brass-EHF-Virginian-2-8-8-8-4-Varney-1936-Model_W0QQitemZ190378502168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Toys_Hobbies_Model_Railways?hash=item2c53716818

Frank Bongiovanni


Group: vintageHO Message: 13478 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Part of the reason I'm asking is that I'm only aware of the Varney Yellowstone [I'm oversimplifying, but he made a boiler--out of brass and aluminum at different times???]and you were supposed to buy two 2-8-0 mechanisms and put a lot of work into it. I'm not aware that it was ever done by Varney in RTR form. The seller says something about "we all know about Varney's Erie triplex"....first I've heard of it, but that's why I'm asking, hoping a real expert will step up to the plate.

Frank
Group: vintageHO Message: 13479 From: John H Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
wrote to the seller and here is what I said.

"For the kind of money you are expecting for this you should hire someone to take useable photos. I would expect to see clear, sharp and larger pictures before spending that kind of loot on a no return item."

It often amazes me how many ebay sellers post poor or sometimes just plain lousy photos of what they are trying to sell. Of course usually the items are rather well know like Mantua Shifters etc. that we are all familiar with. But when it involves something (supposedly) this rare and valuable.....

John Hagen

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, tom leen <luvs2drive@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Frank,
> I'm not an officianado of brass models, but $18,000, seems to be way out of line to me.
> Just for the fun of it write to the seller and see if it's a mistake.
> Tom Leen
>
> --- On Sun, 3/7/10, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13480 From: bob d Date: 3/6/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Doesn't look to be a true triplex but a duplex with a "helper" on the tender. Still at $18 grand one would expect a bit more. At least it doesn't eat anything, so he won't have to feed it when it doesn't sell.

Bob

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
>
> One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Brass-EHF-Virginian-2-8-8-8-4-Varney-1936-Model_W0QQitemZ190378502168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Toys_Hobbies_Model_Railways?hash=item2c53716818
>
> Frank Bongiovanni
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13481 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Guys, I hope I don't have to tell you that it doesn't matter whether you're a Varney expert or not. As this thing is so "rare," the only source of information about it is his word. Captain of the Seven Seas (so to speak)? Sounds like a story of an old salt to me! Listen, Aussies are pretty sharp people and capable or some great fabrications like anyone else. His best bet is to unload this thing on a typically unsuspecting American who still has lots of bucks to throw around. You can bet that there are virtually no Australian train collectors in that position. You buy this thing, and the only "expert" source for its authenticity now and in the future will be some unknown person who sold it to you on eBay.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/6/2010 11:29:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, luvs2drive@... writes:


Hi Frank,
I'm not an officianado of brass models, but $18,000, seems to be way out of line to me.
Just for the fun of it write to the seller and see if it's a mistake.
Tom Leen

--- On Sun, 3/7/10, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:

From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 4:14 AM

 
One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay. com/Brass- EHF-Virginian- 2-8-8-8-4- Varney-1936- Model_W0QQitemZ1 90378502168QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZAU _Toys_Hobbies_ Model_Railways? hash=item2c53716 818

Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO Message: 13482 From: Chris B Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
I'm early steam ignorant, but very interested in learning more.
The listing also says it's widely known Varney made a model of the Erie triplex.
Anyone able to verify that?

The seller's four feedbacks as a seller aren't much of a credential, especially since two are negative on the description.

It is worth noting from years of reading aus HO ebay listings and from text on webpages of small AUS HO firms like Hollywood Foundry,
that Aus has had an active community of American profile HO ga collectors, runners, and small mfgrs for many years.

FWIW, this (prototype history of  engines )triplex page shows photos and speces on both the Erie and the experimental Virginian:
(image of page attached - ulr is: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/triplex/triplex.htm)

And the HOSeeker pg on the Varney Yellowstone does seem to offer a complete kit, though requiring some handwork and soldering.
The page says the Yellowstone kit was shipped with a minimal tender kit.

Even if there were no Erie kit, but rather an arrangement that would bash a tender into an Erie tender behind a modified Yellowstone,
it wouldn't seem to hard to bash the same tender into a Virginian tender.

I'm not offended by the fantastical price, I'm sure it gets him a lot of attention, and that may be the purpose, with hope for a sale at a much reduced price offline.
I don't think folks who are sitting on vintage Varney collections would really mind if prices doubled,
unlikely as that may seem,
it certainly happened to all the lionel prewar std and o ga collectors in the 70's.
followed by a flood of fakes in the trainshow mkt,
and then by a resulting drop in the 90's when lionel and MTH brought out all the reproductions of the prized top sellers.

no guarantee that such will ever happen in vintage HO, nothing so far would seem to indicate it will ever happen.

that's good of course, for newer collectors, but especially for amateur historian scholar types, since it does mean that whatever does turn up,
even if it's a one off kitbash like this one may be,
at least it's not a fake made to deliberately fool and plunder some collector....
I'd like to th ink so anyway.

Chris B.




From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 1:18:04 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

Doesn't look to be a true triplex but a duplex with a "helper" on the tender. Still at $18 grand one would expect a bit more. At least it doesn't eat anything, so he won't have to feed it when it doesn't sell.

Bob

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@ ...> wrote:
>
> One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
>
> http://cgi.ebay. com/Brass- EHF-Virginian- 2-8-8-8-4- Varney-1936- Model_W0QQitemZ1 90378502168QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZAU _Toys_Hobbies_ Model_Railways? hash=item2c53716 818
>
> Frank Bongiovanni
>


  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13483 From: jim heckard Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing

All,
 
       My two cents worth that might only be worth a penny. Varney never produced a model like this for sale. While I have a motto about HO "Never say never" I think this time it's 99.99% certain no Varney produced model. All early large steam like the Yellowstone were basically a boiler ( both aluminum & brass as already stated ) that you added the rest. There is even Varney paperwork to help you accomplish this. I've seen a 4-6-6-4 done also.( Volume ll Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon Page 48).  However these were all HO models built by individuals using mainly Varney parts. Although the Varney Yellowstones are actually each one of a kind they still were basically Varney in nature.
 
     Could Gordon Varney have built one of these engines himself or one of the many skilled people who worked for him. Sure but unlike some other rare engines that had low production numbers there is some kind of verification available. More then one engine to start with. I tend to believe this engine had no connection with Varney except maybe some parts and that includes the sellers remarks about the Erie Triplex item also.
 
     Remember one of the biggest Varney experts, Dave Spanagel, knew nothing about this nor did the very knowledgeable people who helped with his Varney guide. Over the years some smaller unknown and uncataloged Varney items have been found but nothing of this magnitude. During the 20 plus years of the HO Scale Collectors & History -SIG, having over 400 members, no mention ever of this
 
    I like to see what others can build but this is a "oner" in my opinion. While I collect Varney $18,000 is a big stretch. Even dropping a zero makes it higher then I would pay even if Varney.
 
                                       Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: tom leen
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing

 

Hi Frank,
I'm not an officianado of brass models, but $18,000, seems to be way out of line to me.
Just for the fun of it write to the seller and see if it's a mistake.
Tom Leen

--- On Sun, 3/7/10, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@ hotmail.com> wrote:

From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@ hotmail.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 4:14 AM

 
One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay. com/Brass- EHF-Virginian- 2-8-8-8-4- Varney-1936- Model_W0QQitemZ1 90378502168QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZAU _Toys_Hobbies_ Model_Railways? hash=item2c53716 818

Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO Message: 13484 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]
Hi All,
 
First off, I have to agree with the photos comment.. If you expect me to dish out that much dough, then you better take better pictures..
 
Second:  It is $20k US he is expecting. He states this twice in his listing. He is just not smart enough to do the conversion himself and ask for the proper Australian currency to get the equivalent $US.
 
Third: Widely known?? By whom? Not me. I am no expert on the rare and early Varney, but I do try to learn all I can about it. I have to rely on you guys that were around then to tell me if such a Triplex was ever produced. This seller even claims that 50 were made.
 
Chances are the 1936 is a part number and not a date stamp. My catalogs are from the 50's so it is very possible this part was discontinued as my catalogs list no part numbered 1936.
It is all just too suspect for me. I did request beter photos though.
 
Sean


From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 7:26:41 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]

 

I'm early steam ignorant, but very interested in learning more.
The listing also says it's widely known Varney made a model of the Erie triplex.
Anyone able to verify that?

The seller's four feedbacks as a seller aren't much of a credential, especially since two are negative on the description.

It is worth noting from years of reading aus HO ebay listings and from text on webpages of small AUS HO firms like Hollywood Foundry,
that Aus has had an active community of American profile HO ga collectors, runners, and small mfgrs for many years.

FWIW, this (prototype history of  engines )triplex page shows photos and speces on both the Erie and the experimental Virginian:
(image of page attached - ulr is: http://www.dself. dsl.pipex. com/MUSEUM/ LOCOLOCO/ triplex/triplex. htm)

And the HOSeeker pg on the Varney Yellowstone does seem to offer a complete kit, though requiring some handwork and soldering.
The page says the Yellowstone kit was shipped with a minimal tender kit.

Even if there were no Erie kit, but rather an arrangement that would bash a tender into an Erie tender behind a modified Yellowstone,
it wouldn't seem to hard to bash the same tender into a Virginian tender.

I'm not offended by the fantastical price, I'm sure it gets him a lot of attention, and that may be the purpose, with hope for a sale at a much reduced price offline.
I don't think folks who are sitting on vintage Varney collections would really mind if prices doubled,
unlikely as that may seem,
it certainly happened to all the lionel prewar std and o ga collectors in the 70's.
followed by a flood of fakes in the trainshow mkt,
and then by a resulting drop in the 90's when lionel and MTH brought out all the reproductions of the prized top sellers.

no guarantee that such will ever happen in vintage HO, nothing so far would seem to indicate it will ever happen.

that's good of course, for newer collectors, but especially for amateur historian scholar types, since it does mean that whatever does turn up,
even if it's a one off kitbash like this one may be,
at least it's not a fake made to deliberately fool and plunder some collector... .
I'd like to th ink so anyway.

Chris B.




From: bob d <fishntrains@ yahoo.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 1:18:04 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

Doesn't look to be a true triplex but a duplex with a "helper" on the tender. Still at $18 grand one would expect a bit more. At least it doesn't eat anything, so he won't have to feed it when it doesn't sell.

Bob

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@ ...> wrote:
>
> One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
>
> http://cgi.ebay. com/Brass- EHF-Virginian- 2-8-8-8-4- Varney-1936- Model_W0QQitemZ1 90378502168QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZAU _Toys_Hobbies_ Model_Railways? hash=item2c53716 818
>
> Frank Bongiovanni
>



Group: vintageHO Message: 13485 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Hi All,

Saw this post last night and checked out the listing, thought I'd sleep on it before weighing in. I have no problem with anyone trying to sell an item at auction for whatever he or she can get. But I do have questions regarding what could be construed as misleading statements as to provenance or origin.

As we are aware, reliance on a single identified part - a coupler draft gear or in this case a tender truck, is no absolute indication of the origin or age of the whole model and those experienced in this hobby often mention those cautions to newcomers.

And while I might believe someone in the employ of the Christies firm may have offered his or her opinion, (no doubt verbal or unsigned, as the seller offers no written opinion), I would first ask if that expert was well versed in toy/tinplate trains or as knowledgeable in Vintage HO as we have here.

There is a huge difference between the two areas in the hobby, and more than one of simply scale, but outsiders often see it as one hobby or subject of expertise. Application of the same standards and values that would hold for a prototype model made for J. C. Lionel or A. C. Gilbert would not hold to our side, even if provenance were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt for a prototype or custom model made for Gordon Varney.

Perhaps "the expert" even had access to the Greenburg's Varney Guide by Spangel and found the model was not listed - a "sure" sign of it's rarity to the under-informed! A Lionel or Gilbert one-off or prototype model would indeed command a princely sum and perhaps US$18,000 may be the right price. But as much as I like Gordon Varney and hold him and his pioneering leadership in our hobby in high regard, ! wonder if such a piece would command a tenth of that sum, significant as that model might be.

For any expert to equate both divisions of the hobby demonstrates a lack of understanding of that key difference. Besides, if the item is so valuable and rare, Why did not Christies negotiate for its sale, as they have access to the most well heeled sellers?

Did Varney commission or build any Erie Triplexes as the seller or his "expert" stated? If so, for that price asked, I'd like to see the citations listed so they or the Virginian model could be verified. Anecdotal inferences are not enough at that price level. Some modeler or two might have built one on their own using many Varney parts, no doubt inspired by Varney's clever catalog text and dreaming of the possibilities and a good example would be valuable, but again at a fraction of US$18,000.

This does have me thinking, though. I have a custom built brass bodied Erie 0-8-8-0 Camelback Mallet that incorporated two Mantua chassis and mechanisms. It is a beautiful model and one of my favorites. Heck, "for all I know" (with tounge in cheek) it might have even been a prototype made by Mantua for possible production, as I read a few others were made and Mantua did offer Mallets of a sort (logging types) later on.

Any takers at US$18,000.00 LOL!

I may even have a fuzzy photo of it somewhere around here, too!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> I'm early steam ignorant, but very interested in learning more.
> The listing also says it's widely known Varney made a model of the Erie triplex.
>
> Anyone able to verify that?
>
> The seller's four feedbacks as a seller aren't much of a credential, especially since two are negative on the description.
>
> It is worth noting from years of reading aus HO ebay listings and from text on webpages of small AUS HO firms like Hollywood Foundry,
> that Aus has had an active community of American profile HO ga collectors, runners, and small mfgrs for many years.
>
> FWIW, this (prototype history of engines )triplex page shows photos and speces on both the Erie and the experimental Virginian:
> (image of page attached - ulr is: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/triplex/triplex.htm)
>
> And the HOSeeker pg on the Varney Yellowstone does seem to offer a
> complete kit, though requiring some handwork and soldering.
> The page says the Yellowstone kit was shipped with a minimal tender kit.
>
> (image of page attached - ulr is: hhttp://www.hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varney1939catalogpg08.jpg)
>
> Even if there were no Erie kit, but rather an arrangement that would bash a tender into an Erie tender behind a modified Yellowstone,
> it wouldn't seem to hard to bash the same tender into a Virginian tender.
>
> I'm not offended by the fantastical price, I'm sure it gets him a lot of attention, and that may be the purpose, with hope for a sale at a much reduced price offline.
> I don't think folks who are sitting on vintage Varney collections would really mind if prices doubled,
> unlikely as that may seem,
> it certainly happened to all the lionel prewar std and o ga collectors in the 70's.
> followed by a flood of fakes in the trainshow mkt,
> and then by a resulting drop in the 90's when lionel and MTH brought out all the reproductions of the prized top sellers.
>
> no guarantee that such will ever happen in vintage HO, nothing so far would seem to indicate it will ever happen.
>
> that's good of course, for newer collectors, but especially for amateur historian scholar types, since it does mean that whatever does turn up,
> even if it's a one off kitbash like this one may be,
> at least it's not a fake made to deliberately fool and plunder some collector....
> I'd like to th ink so anyway.
>
> Chris B.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 1:18:04 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing
>
>
> Doesn't look to be a true triplex but a duplex with a "helper" on the tender. Still at $18 grand one would expect a bit more. At least it doesn't eat anything, so he won't have to feed it when it doesn't sell.
>
> Bob
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay com/Brass- EHF-Virginian- 2-8-8-8-4- Varney-1936- Model_W0QQitemZ1 90378502168QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZAU _Toys_Hobbies_ Model_Railways? hash=item2c53716 818
> >
> > Frank Bongiovanni
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13486 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]
From what I see of this engine, it appears to be completely bogus (Jim
Heckard, would you still say "never say never" on this one < g >). Varney
didn't start producing engines until 1938, being announced in January 1938 in a
six panel 11" x 17" folder, folded in half to 8 !/2" x 11" and then folded
into thirds (which I have). Varney didn't produce anything but rolling stock
up until that time, starting with a die-cast gondola in late 1936, as
advertised in the January 1937 MR magazine, and then going into paper-sided
freight cars later in that year (embossed sides in 1939 and cardstock sides in
1941, albeit with a cardstock side flat car in 1937). Passenger cars were
first produced in mid-1937 also, but no engines yet at that time.

The first articulated (aluminum-boiler Yellowstone) wasn't produced until
1939, as Chris B. shows in his attachment -- and was offered in kit form at
that time. The brass Yellowstone boiler was a post-War offering, which the
modeler had to buy everything else separately for. This Varney Yellowstone
boiler has no resemblance to the engine in question on eBay. As for us all
knowing "about Varney's Erie Triplex, I don't know who the "we" are in this
guys statement since this would be real news to any other person except for
this Seller. For starters, as I'm sure everyone is aware, Varney never
produced a model engine designed after an Erie prototype or Virginian drawings.
Any number that Varney cast into a part (such as the #1946 F-3 Diesel Roof
Insert Casting, that I've seen at least a dozen Sellers describe as the year
the model was produced) stood for the part's number, but none of the Varney
engine trucks were so numbered (or dated) and none had this part number
(1936 ?).

The Baldwin Locomotive Works did build three Class "P-1" Matt H Shay design
2-8-8-8-2 Triplex engines for pusher service on Susquehanna Hill (and over
Sturruca Viaduct, Lanesboro,PA) -- which had the third "engine" installed
under the tender. BTW, Varney never produced a tender of the design that is
part of the eBay engine. Perhaps there was another Varney who manufactured
H0 models in Sydney, Australia, but I doubt that Gordon Varney ever made a
model like this. Ray F.W. </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13487 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]
Hi All,

I too, sent some questions off to the eBay lister asking for better photos and citing the fact that the only known brass HO models of Virginian Triplex listed in the last Brown Book of Brass Locomotives
were runs by Precision Scale Company and Westside Model Company; (there may have been others since Brown's Book's last publication, I do not know for sure). I also asked about the nature of quote "any other supporting information concerning the model builder being Varney or the date of 1936? The use of what may be a Varney truck at the rear does not confer provenance that the model was actually manufactured by Varney, as none of the published period catalogs or more recent collector's guides make reference to it, nor are any of those fifty models you mention known by some of the most recognized Varney collectors. Do you have signed and written authentication by experts from either of the auction houses you cite, and if so, is their expertice in general toy trains or specifically vintage HO or Brass?" end quote.

It will be interesting if any of us get a response, or see if the listing is withdrawn altogether. Although the saying is "A fool and his money are soon parted" I would hate to see even a rich fool taken by this, as it will eventually give us and our hobby a black eye when a hapless buyer eventually finds out the truth.

W. Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
> From what I see of this engine, it appears to be completely bogus (Jim
> Heckard, would you still say "never say never" on this one < g >). Varney
> didn't start producing engines until 1938, being announced in January 1938 in a
> six panel 11" x 17" folder, folded in half to 8 !/2" x 11" and then folded
> into thirds (which I have). Varney didn't produce anything but rolling stock
> up until that time, starting with a die-cast gondola in late 1936, as
> advertised in the January 1937 MR magazine, and then going into paper-sided
> freight cars later in that year (embossed sides in 1939 and cardstock sides in
> 1941, albeit with a cardstock side flat car in 1937). Passenger cars were
> first produced in mid-1937 also, but no engines yet at that time.
>
> The first articulated (aluminum-boiler Yellowstone) wasn't produced until
> 1939, as Chris B. shows in his attachment -- and was offered in kit form at
> that time. The brass Yellowstone boiler was a post-War offering, which the
> modeler had to buy everything else separately for. This Varney Yellowstone
> boiler has no resemblance to the engine in question on eBay. As for us all
> knowing "about Varney's Erie Triplex, I don't know who the "we" are in this
> guys statement since this would be real news to any other person except for
> this Seller. For starters, as I'm sure everyone is aware, Varney never
> produced a model engine designed after an Erie prototype or Virginian drawings.
> Any number that Varney cast into a part (such as the #1946 F-3 Diesel Roof
> Insert Casting, that I've seen at least a dozen Sellers describe as the year
> the model was produced) stood for the part's number, but none of the Varney
> engine trucks were so numbered (or dated) and none had this part number
> (1936 ?).
>
> The Baldwin Locomotive Works did build three Class "P-1" Matt H Shay design
> 2-8-8-8-2 Triplex engines for pusher service on Susquehanna Hill (and over
> Sturruca Viaduct, Lanesboro,PA) -- which had the third "engine" installed
> under the tender. BTW, Varney never produced a tender of the design that is
> part of the eBay engine. Perhaps there was another Varney who manufactured
> H0 models in Sydney, Australia, but I doubt that Gordon Varney ever made a
> model like this. Ray F.W. </HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13488 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]
Chris B wrote:
> And the HOSeeker pg on the Varney Yellowstone does seem to offer a
> complete kit, though requiring some handwork and soldering.
> The page says the Yellowstone kit was shipped with a minimal tender kit.
> (image of page attached - ulr is:
> hhttp://www.hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varney1939catalogpg08.jpg)
>
> Even if there were no Erie kit, but rather an arrangement that would
> bash a tender into an Erie tender behind a modified Yellowstone,
> it wouldn't seem to hard to bash the same tender into a Virginian tender.

I'm suspicious about his claims that it's a Varney. While my
knowledge of Varney is limited to nothing more than that they existed at
one time, the seller seems to be basing his entire claim on one truck on
the tender having the name Varney on it and a date. I think that the
whole model may be something else with a Varney truck having been
attached to the tender at some point.

--

Rick Jones

Isn't having a smoking section in a restaurant like having a
peeing section in a swimming pool?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13489 From: Chris B Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Looking more closely at the Varney 1939 page, it does offer the Yellowstone both as a kit and as an assembled locomotive for $135. 

$135 in 1939 dollars is a princely sum, but it's still not equivalent to $18K (US or Aus)! <G>

Chris B.


From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 9:56:56 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

From what I see of this engine, it appears to be completely bogus (Jim
Heckard, would you still say "never say never" on this one < g >). Varney
didn't start producing engines until 1938, being announced in January 1938 in a
six panel 11" x 17" folder, folded in half to 8 !/2" x 11" and then folded
into thirds (which I have). Varney didn't produce anything but rolling stock
up until that time, starting with a die-cast gondola in late 1936, as
advertised in the January 1937 MR magazine, and then going into paper-sided
freight cars later in that year (embossed sides in 1939 and cardstock sides in
1941, albeit with a cardstock side flat car in 1937). Passenger cars were
first produced in mid-1937 also, but no engines yet at that time.

The first articulated (aluminum-boiler Yellowstone) wasn't produced until
1939, as Chris B. shows in his attachment -- and was offered in kit form at
that time. The brass Yellowstone boiler was a post-War offering, which the
modeler had to buy everything else separately for. This Varney Yellowstone
boiler has no resemblance to the engine in question on eBay. As for us all
knowing "about Varney's Erie Triplex, I don't know who the "we" are in this
guys statement since this would be real news to any other person except for
this Seller. For starters, as I'm sure everyone is aware, Varney never
produced a model engine designed after an Erie prototype or Virginian drawings.
Any number that Varney cast into a part (such as the #1946 F-3 Diesel Roof
Insert Casting, that I've seen at least a dozen Sellers describe as the year
the model was produced) stood for the part's number, but none of the Varney
engine trucks were so numbered (or dated) and none had this part number
(1936 ?).

The Baldwin Locomotive Works did build three Class "P-1" Matt H Shay design
2-8-8-8-2 Triplex engines for pusher service on Susquehanna Hill (and over
Sturruca Viaduct, Lanesboro,PA) -- which had the third "engine" installed
under the tender. BTW, Varney never produced a tender of the design that is
part of the eBay engine. Perhaps there was another Varney who manufactured
H0 models in Sydney, Australia, but I doubt that Gordon Varney ever made a
model like this. Ray F.W. </HTML>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13490 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Hi All,

It looks like I've been able to solve part of this "mystery" of this
supposed 1936 Varney engine. You will note, the truck which this seller indicates
as having "VARNEY" and "1936" in it is the rear truck of the tender. If
you take a look at it, you'll see it's not a tender truck, and looks too light
to even be one (besides having no side frames). In going through my Varney
parts, I've found several Varney cast pilot trucks that were given to me by
Dick Mercer (Gordon Varney's Southeastern U.S. Representative); they have
"VARNEY 1936" cast into them. I do not see them cataloged in any of my
Varney catalogs, and I have virtually every one one them from 1938 to the time
Sol Kramer bought the company -- I even have several of Sol Kramer's Varney
catalogs.

This does appear to be a pre-War design of Varney's, but the only pre-War
4-wheel pilot truck in the catalogs is the # 131 -- listed with catalog
number in 1941, previously not cataloged with a number. The previous 4-wheel
pilot trucks in the '39 and '40 catalogs are shown to be all the same design
though (open -frame), but this is not a post-War truck. Still, as W. Jay W.
stated, a model can hardly be identified just from one part that was added to
it.

Anyhow, during my many talks years ago with Dick Mercer and Hal Fletcher
(Gordon Varney's Northeastern U.S. Representative), there was never a mention
of any such locomotive made by Varney, nor of any of these 50 Erie Triplex's
which supposedly, according to the Seller, "He did make, as we all know."
If "we" should all know, I find it surprising that neither of Gordon
Varney's representatives knew about them -- and we did get into some deep
discusions on Gordon Varney. I spent many a Sunday afternoon in Hal Fletcher's
living room, sipping a scotch on the rocks and discussing everything about
Varney's products. Hal never had an Erie Triplex -- and he had EVERY engine model
the Varney ever produced.

If Christies or Sothebies valued this model (undoubtedly, a Japanese
import) at US $18,000 based on this pilot truck, I have a Mantua 21" span double
-track bridge that they might be interested in for a mere $12,000 (LOL, LOL,
LOL).
Ray Wetzel</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13491 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
If Gordon Varney, or any other Varney, in the US, Australia or elsewhere, did create a HO model Erie, or a Virginian triplex, and this extremely knowledgeable group doesn't know about it, I would be very surprised. It isn't impossible, but is is highly improbable. The only additional check I can suggest is to contact the Erie and Virginian historical societies. Members of those societies would likely have tracked down any rumors of triplex models out of the past.

LMB imported an Erie triplex long ago, in the 60's I believe. Did LMB, or anyone else, import a Virginian triplex. [Was there a 'Varney' in Australia who imported US type brass locos?]

If any member of this chat group is a member of one of those societies, maybe he or she can ask them if they can shed any light on this questionable model.

--
Regards,
Walter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13492 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
For what it's worth, I have a Knapp Mountain class, and it has a Varney pilot on it.

I could probably sell it on eBay as a 'rare' prewar Varney with only two or three known to exist! Ha hah!

I was quite tempted to click the 'report item' link, as this fellow is trying to scam nearly two thousand dollar extra from US buyers, through his comments on the listing, that $20,000 means $20,00 US dollars, rather than Austrailian, as eBay shows (Could be to circumvent some fees).

Reminds me of a piece of human hair someone was selling a while back, claiming it was found on the Shroud of Turin, and the hair belonged to Jesus Christ. Even had a link to a Wikipedia article (Conviently created a day or two before the listing, and already challenged there for removal). This guy was actually getting high bids too!

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sun, 3/7/10, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:

From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 10:49 AM

 

Hi All,

It looks like I've been able to solve part of this "mystery" of this
supposed 1936 Varney engine. You will note, the truck which this seller indicates
as having "VARNEY" and "1936" in it is the rear truck of the tender. If
you take a look at it, you'll see it's not a tender truck, and looks too light
to even be one (besides having no side frames). In going through my Varney
parts, I've found several Varney cast pilot trucks that were given to me by
Dick Mercer (Gordon Varney's Southeastern U.S. Representative) ; they have
"VARNEY 1936" cast into them. I do not see them cataloged in any of my
Varney catalogs, and I have virtually every one one them from 1938 to the time
Sol Kramer bought the company -- I even have several of Sol Kramer's Varney
catalogs.

This does appear to be a pre-War design of Varney's, but the only pre-War
4-wheel pilot truck in the catalogs is the # 131 -- listed with catalog
number in 1941, previously not cataloged with a number. The previous 4-wheel
pilot trucks in the '39 and '40 catalogs are shown to be all the same design
though (open -frame), but this is not a post-War truck. Still, as W. Jay W.
stated, a model can hardly be identified just from one part that was added to
it.

Anyhow, during my many talks years ago with Dick Mercer and Hal Fletcher
(Gordon Varney's Northeastern U.S. Representative) , there was never a mention
of any such locomotive made by Varney, nor of any of these 50 Erie Triplex's
which supposedly, according to the Seller, "He did make, as we all know."
If "we" should all know, I find it surprising that neither of Gordon
Varney's representatives knew about them -- and we did get into some deep
discusions on Gordon Varney. I spent many a Sunday afternoon in Hal Fletcher's
living room, sipping a scotch on the rocks and discussing everything about
Varney's products. Hal never had an Erie Triplex -- and he had EVERY engine model
the Varney ever produced.

If Christies or Sothebies valued this model (undoubtedly, a Japanese
import) at US $18,000 based on this pilot truck, I have a Mantua 21" span double
-track bridge that they might be interested in for a mere $12,000 (LOL, LOL,
LOL).
Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13493 From: Dave Royer Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing

I have watched this thread with great intrest. The emperiors new clothes come to mind and I believe PT Barnum had it rite
 
my .02 worth
 
Dave
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing

 



All,
 
       My two cents worth that might only be worth a penny. Varney never produced a model like this for sale. While I have a motto about HO "Never say never" I think this time it's 99.99% certain no Varney produced model. All early large steam like the Yellowstone were basically a boiler ( both aluminum & brass as already stated ) that you added the rest. There is even Varney paperwork to help you accomplish this. I've seen a 4-6-6-4 done also.( Volume ll Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon Page 48).  However these were all HO models built by individuals using mainly Varney parts. Although the Varney Yellowstones are actually each one of a kind they still were basically Varney in nature.
 
     Could Gordon Varney have built one of these engines himself or one of the many skilled people who worked for him. Sure but unlike some other rare engines that had low production numbers there is some kind of verification available. More then one engine to start with. I tend to believe this engine had no connection with Varney except maybe some parts and that includes the sellers remarks about the Erie Triplex item also.
 
     Remember one of the biggest Varney experts, Dave Spanagel, knew nothing about this nor did the very knowledgeable people who helped with his Varney guide. Over the years some smaller unknown and uncataloged Varney items have been found but nothing of this magnitude. During the 20 plus years of the HO Scale Collectors & History -SIG, having over 400 members, no mention ever of this
 
    I like to see what others can build but this is a "oner" in my opinion. While I collect Varney $18,000 is a big stretch. Even dropping a zero makes it higher then I would pay even if Varney.
 
                                       Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: tom leen
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing

 

Hi Frank,
I'm not an officianado of brass models, but $18,000, seems to be way out of line to me.
Just for the fun of it write to the seller and see if it's a mistake.
Tom Leen

--- On Sun, 3/7/10, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@ hotmail.com> wrote:

From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@ hotmail.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 4:14 AM

 
One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay. com/Brass- EHF-Virginian- 2-8-8-8-4- Varney-1936- Model_W0QQitemZ1 90378502168QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZAU _Toys_Hobbies_ Model_Railways? hash=item2c53716 818

Frank Bongiovanni

Group: vintageHO Message: 13494 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Hi Walter B.,

I had to smile a bit as one of the reasons I became involved in collecting Vintage HO, as regular scale modeler of the Erie and DL&W and long time ELHS member, was to find out what past models may have been offered at one time for my favorite roads and have collected and built a large collection of them (except for most of the imported brass) extending from the late 1930's through many of today's scale offerings. Some in that group may consider me the expert, but won't claim that title utill I publish my information and have it vetted by others.

Besides the two runs of Virginian Trixplexes I cited in an earlier post today, there have been at least five runs of brass Erie Triplexes including LMB's first in 1961; LMB again in 1969 and 1971; two different versions by Key in 1980; two different versions again by Key in 1985. This according to The Brown Book, 3rd ed. pub in 1994, believe at least one more since then. I know if there had been a Varney Erie Triplex someone would have mentioned it to me or would have read in the complete collection of old ELHS paper.

Besides, how would noted life-long Erie fan, the late Hal Carstens not have even mentioned it in his frequent Vintage memories columns!

Could be this seller is just going on erroneous information he has obtained and thinks he has the find of a lifetime; he did base one of his other listed descriptions on a Varney coupler and says so. Will wait the two days suggested for his reply.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...> wrote:
>
> If Gordon Varney, or any other Varney, in the US, Australia or elsewhere,
> did create a HO model Erie, or a Virginian triplex, and this extremely
> knowledgeable group doesn't know about it, I would be very surprised. It
> isn't impossible, but is is highly improbable. The only additional check I
> can suggest is to contact the Erie and Virginian historical societies.
> Members of those societies would likely have tracked down any rumors of
> triplex models out of the past.
>
> LMB imported an Erie triplex long ago, in the 60's I believe. Did LMB, or
> anyone else, import a Virginian triplex. [Was there a 'Varney' in Australia
> who imported US type brass locos?]
>
> If any member of this chat group is a member of one of those societies,
> maybe he or she can ask them if they can shed any light on this questionable
> model.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Walter
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13495 From: James B Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Instructions wanted
Hello,

Would anybody be able to scan a copy of instructions for a Campbell kit for me? I recently purchased a bunch of kits and one does not have the instruction sheet. The one I am looking for is the Campbell Kit #366 Drug Store & Barber Shop. If anybody could email me a scan of these I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

James Bartelt
jimbartelt@...
Group: vintageHO Message: 13496 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Two comments: 1) "A fool and his money are soon parted".
2) Caveat Emptor.

That said, it doesn't seem to be a bad attempt at modeling the
prototype, and the unknown builder may well have used three Varney
mechanisms in the process (I cannot tell from the poor photos). If
so, he (or she) could have done worse. It was not at all uncommon for
custom locomotive builders in the '30s right up into the '50s to use
stock mechanisms as a easy means of reducing costs and saving a lot of
time.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento
Group: vintageHO Message: 13497 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Fwd: a69mustang4me has sent a question about item #190378502168, end


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From: "eBay Member: tezz55" <s11-tfv3l9iglu@...>
Date: March 7, 2010 2:51:46 PM EST
To: a69mustang4me@...
Subject: Re: a69mustang4me has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
Reply-To: s11-tfv3l9iglu@...

                       
eBayeBay sent this message to Sean Naylor (a69mustang4me).
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Dear a69mustang4me,

Hi
I have mail from a person that has one exactly like mine in his collection,..,it is a Varney,1936 Model.Have had no sun for 6 weeks here,is why photos r not so hot,hope to have sun today.

- tezz55
Click "respond" to reply through Messages, or go to your email to reply




From: a69mustang4me
To: tezz55
Subject: a69mustang4me has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending on 17-Mar-10 09:59:48 AEDST - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
Sent Date: 08-Mar-10 00:49:28 AEDST

Dear tezz55,

Hi, Your listing claims this to be a Varney. I like to consider myseld an avid Varney collector as I have many varney engines in my collection. I have never heard of this engine, but that does not mean it did not exist. What I do find disturbing is the very poor photos you have posted. If this is a Varney, it would consist of various parts used by many Varney engines, such as the drivers and valve gear.. Your pictures are so bad, I can not recognize a single part. I wouls love to see better pictures. Thanks and good luck.

- a69mustang4me

                   
Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
Item Id:190378502168
End time:Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT
Seller:
tezz55 (269)
100.0% Positive Feedback
Member since Mar-30-07 in Australia
Location: Queensland, Australia
Listing Status:This message was sent while the listing was active.
Here are more items from this seller
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Rare VHF Fleischmann 12 car UP Yellow setRare VHF Fleischmann Aluminum Baggage car sliding doorsFleischmann 8 car set W Germany 1950's VHF rareBrass PCM HO Turbine  Propane  auxiliary  fuel car Rivarossi NIB NR 4 8 4 FEF-3 UP
0 BidsAU $1,800.00
Shipping:+AU $45.00
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Shipping:View Item to Calculate
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Shipping:+AU $45.00

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Group: vintageHO Message: 13498 From: jim heckard Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: odd ebay item
Ray F W,
 
             As I cited in a much earlier post that while I like to use "never say never" I didn't believe this brass Triplex engine was Varney. I doubt we will find out that this has any connection to Varney other the Varney parts. ie The 4 wheel pilot truck.
 
   Sometimes I like to step back and be sure about things because in HO, including Varney, there are unknowns and uncataloged items. Case in point is how you found this 4 wheel Varney pilot truck number 1936 might be an uncataloged part. You also now know about the uncataloged larger length square back tender , made from wood, cardboard and embossed aluminum that was identified, verified and numbered by Dave Spanagel. Just one of many items, from many companies, that are being found.
 
    This can work both ways as sometimes items are cataloged but not produced.
 
    I just hate to close the door completely on anything that might be new till all information can be compiled.
 
    I surely don't disagree that this engine is bogus as far as being Varney.
 
    I do have a question which you might be able to answer from information other then the Varney guide by Spanagel page 49  concerning Varney Yellowstone # 405 with aluminum boiler listed as being made 1938 -1941 and Varney Yellowstone #406 with brass boiler listed as first produced July 1938. Do you have a date for when the aluminum Yellowstone boiler was first sold as it pertains to which came first or is the words at the start for the #406 version " with brass boiler " a mistake ? ( even though it goes on to describe you could use two motors in the brass boiler while the aluminum body had no such cavity other then you taking a large chunk out.) ?
 
                                                       Jim H
 
                                             Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13499 From: John H Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing [2 Attachments]
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I too, sent some questions off to the eBay lister asking for better photos and citing the fact that the only known brass HO models of Virginian Triplex listed in the last Brown Book of Brass Locomotives
> were runs by Precision Scale Company and Westside Model Company; (there may have been others since Brown's Book's last publication, I do not know for sure). I also asked about the nature of quote "any other supporting information concerning the model builder being Varney or the date of 1936? The use of what may be a Varney truck at the rear does not confer provenance that the model was actually manufactured by Varney, as none of the published period catalogs or more recent collector's guides make reference to it, nor are any of those fifty models you mention known by some of the most recognized Varney collectors. Do you have signed and written authentication by experts from either of the auction houses you cite, and if so, is their expertice in general toy trains or specifically vintage HO or Brass?" end quote.
>
> It will be interesting if any of us get a response, or see if the listing is withdrawn altogether. Although the saying is "A fool and his money are soon parted" I would hate to see even a rich fool taken by this, as it will eventually give us and our hobby a black eye when a hapless buyer eventually finds out the truth.
>
> W. Jay W.
>

Maybe it ain't on Aussie TV but the seller oughta watch "Antiques Roadshow" to learn what "provenance" is and what one needs to prove it.

Someone mentioned (I apologize but I think it was HH) he wouldn't want it if one of the zeros was removed from the price. Since it is likely just a collection of old pieces (again, can't tell anything from the poor photos) I can't see going for it with two zeros removed. And yes, I am speaking of zeros from the LEFT side of the decimal point.

Yeah, I understand and agree that it is the sellers right to ask whatever he pleases for whatever he is trying to sell but I do feel there is entirely too much of the "Let the buyer beware" syndrome today. It seems if one can come up with a good line of BS and dupe a P.T. Barnum patron out of his/her coinage that is OK. Worse, when buying via mail order, the buyer doesn't even get kissed.

John Hagen
Group: vintageHO Message: 13500 From: bob d Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
I asked "tezz" if he had proper items, papers and such to subsantiate his claims made on the provenence of the engine. here is his reply:

Hi Bob,
Much is on google about Varney,and the Erie 2 8 8 8 2 triplex being made in 1936,as well as this Virginian triplex,cast brass,2 8 8 8 4 made in a limited run.Bowser,in Pa,have a model exactly the same as mine,made by Varney,1936,so you can ask them about theirs in their collection for verification Bob.thanks
Tezz

Gotta love "copy and paste".

Seems to me, that he actually has nothing in hand. Could this be real? Or is it a fraud, a word no one has dared to use up to this point. At $18,000-$20,000, the engine does have a reserve, I have yet to verify its credentials. I stayed up all night going though old reference books, thumbing through old magazines, I have MRR collection complete back to 1940 and many copies dating back to 1937. I can find absolutely nothing on the engine. There were a few excellent articles on Mr. Varney and more on the various engines, but nada, zilch, goose eggs on this one.

I am wondering if PayPal, with their protection policy, would be willing to back the buyer up on this one. That's a mighty hefty chunk of change we are talking about.

Bob

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
>
> One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Brass-EHF-Virginian-2-8-8-8-4-Varney-1936-Model_W0QQitemZ190378502168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Toys_Hobbies_Model_Railways?hash=item2c53716818
>
> Frank Bongiovanni
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13501 From: Chris B Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
all good info and wise,
but as for there being too much of it today...I don't know if it's any worse than it ever was, even with ebay.

I spent lots of time in my younger days as a restoration cabinetmaker learning the ropes of real antiques,
(even saw a Philadelphia highboy I'd worked on get appraised for big money on Antiques Roadshow years later)
but when I was just getting started, before I knew what was what, and how to tell real from junk and from fake;
I got taken several times by furniture dealers with glib tongues and good stories.  Name dealers in real shops in downtown DC, not fly by night guys.

In the antiques business, as Roadshow teaches, there's plenty of fakes around made many years ago.
The Greeks sold fake antique marble statues and fake ancient bronze coins to the Romans.
Probably why the original version of let the buyer beware was in Latin! <g>

Chris B.



From: John H <sprinthag@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 4:50:49 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 



--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I too, sent some questions off to the eBay lister asking for better photos and citing the fact that the only known brass HO models of Virginian Triplex listed in the last Brown Book of Brass Locomotives
> were runs by Precision Scale Company and Westside Model Company; (there may have been others since Brown's Book's last publication, I do not know for sure). I also asked about the nature of quote "any other supporting information concerning the model builder being Varney or the date of 1936? The use of what may be a Varney truck at the rear does not confer provenance that the model was actually manufactured by Varney, as none of the published period catalogs or more recent collector's guides make reference to it, nor are any of those fifty models you mention known by some of the most recognized Varney collectors. Do you have signed and written authentication by experts from either of the auction houses you cite, and if so, is their expertice in general toy trains or specifically vintage HO or Brass?" end quote.
>
> It will be interesting if any of us get a response, or see if the listing is withdrawn altogether. Although the saying is "A fool and his money are soon parted" I would hate to see even a rich fool taken by this, as it will eventually give us and our hobby a black eye when a hapless buyer eventually finds out the truth.
>
> W. Jay W.
>

Maybe it ain't on Aussie TV but the seller oughta watch "Antiques Roadshow" to learn what "provenance" is and what one needs to prove it.

Someone mentioned (I apologize but I think it was HH) he wouldn't want it if one of the zeros was removed from the price. Since it is likely just a collection of old pieces (again, can't tell anything from the poor photos) I can't see going for it with two zeros removed. And yes, I am speaking of zeros from the LEFT side of the decimal point.

Yeah, I understand and agree that it is the sellers right to ask whatever he pleases for whatever he is trying to sell but I do feel there is entirely too much of the "Let the buyer beware" syndrome today. It seems if one can come up with a good line of BS and dupe a P.T. Barnum patron out of his/her coinage that is OK. Worse, when buying via mail order, the buyer doesn't even get kissed.

John Hagen


Group: vintageHO Message: 13502 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
> .Bowser,in Pa,have a model exactly the same as mine,made by
> Varney,1936,so you can ask them about theirs in their collection for
> verification
>
So why not ask Lee English? This would clarify this issue for once and
all.... if he has neverheard about the mystery Triplex, its clearly a
fraudulent scheme... if he has one like this , its more or less verified.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13503 From: Bigdaddy Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Wanted - Athearn F7A Black Widow Shell
Anyone have one with no parts missing?

Randy
Group: vintageHO Message: 13504 From: jim heckard Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
  Hi Gerold ,
 
       I see no harm in asking Lew English if he has a Varney Triplex 1936 or no matter what year. I'm pretty sure he will say no to a Varney engine but might have a brass triplex.
 
    Mr. English was a member of the HO Sale Collectors & History -Special Interest Group for many years. I'm sure during all that time if he had an Varney made triplex he would have mentioned it since Dave Spanagel was the leader of the group.
 
     I'm amazed how this seller ties his "facts" together. Just for fun I plugged in Varney Erie 2-8-8-8-2 Triplex into Google. As the seller states there are numerous sites but NONE tie Varney to a Triplex.
 
     Nothing fits at all. As Ray F W states the Varney 4 wheel pilot truck has the part number 1936 not the year. The seller talks about 50? made but probably a run by some other company. He claims that he knows another person with the exact model which seems to have the same Varney 1936 truck under the tender which again doesn't mean Varney. Would like that owner to come forward 
 
    Ray F W  Question ? Is that Varney 4 wheel pilot truck numbered 1936 a brass truck with brass wheels that another company making brass triplex could have used on their production run ?
 
    I don't think he will get any real bids. Let one of those auction houses he names buy it and then eat it as the seller doesn't seem to get it. Buyer beware
 
                                                                        Jim H.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 


> .Bowser,in Pa,have a model exactly the same as mine,made by
> Varney,1936, so you can ask them about theirs in their collection for
> verification
>
So why not ask Lee English? This would clarify this issue for once and
all.... if he has neverheard about the mystery Triplex, its clearly a
fraudulent scheme... if he has one like this , its more or less verified.

Gerold

Group: vintageHO Message: 13505 From: Nelson B Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
I love his response to the question someone here asked, saying that the photos are poor because they've had 6 straight overcast weeks down under, as if Edison never invented the electric light. As we all know (there's that 'we' again), cloudy weather always causes auction photos to be dim, blurry, and low-res.

I agree that this has to be a kitbash. The engines are too small for the boiler, no doubt Consolidation frames. I think we should flood him with questions about the loco, and how in good conscience he can ask for that kind of money with absolutely no corroboration of his fantastic claims.

Nelson


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
>
> Two comments: 1) "A fool and his money are soon parted".
> 2) Caveat Emptor.
>
> That said, it doesn't seem to be a bad attempt at modeling the
> prototype, and the unknown builder may well have used three Varney
> mechanisms in the process (I cannot tell from the poor photos). If
> so, he (or she) could have done worse. It was not at all uncommon for
> custom locomotive builders in the '30s right up into the '50s to use
> stock mechanisms as a easy means of reducing costs and saving a lot of
> time.
>
> Denny
>
> Denny S. Anspach MD
> Sacramento
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13506 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing - tezz55 reply to me
Hi All,

Just received a reply from "tezz55" which seems to contain an email from Lee English without an actual reference. The entire email sent to me follows:

"Dear wjayw,

Hi there
If you contact Lee English at Bowser here,he will tell you this too ok?

No i do not need a photo. My Dad has one.
They are rare but i do not have any idea of value

Thank you
Lee english
Bowser Mfg
PO Box 322
Montoursville Pa 17754
570-368-2379
www.bowser-trains.com
Price List & Order Info http://bowser-trains.com/Prices/pricelists.htm

I have others wanting to buy it to add to another they have,so obviously,more than mine was made? U can find info about 2 8 8 8 4 locos from Lee if you ask him?
Sorry about photos,but sun is still not out,and I am using only web camera to take photos with.i wish they were better too Jay.
Can only refer you to Bowser,and the fact Varney made them is posted on Google too if you look?
cheers
hope sun pops out soon.

- tezz55

End of Email from Tezz55
# # #

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson B" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I love his response to the question someone here asked, saying that the photos are poor because they've had 6 straight overcast weeks down under, as if Edison never invented the electric light. As we all know (there's that 'we' again), cloudy weather always causes auction photos to be dim, blurry, and low-res.
>
> I agree that this has to be a kitbash. The engines are too small for the boiler, no doubt Consolidation frames. I think we should flood him with questions about the loco, and how in good conscience he can ask for that kind of money with absolutely no corroboration of his fantastic claims.
>
> Nelson
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@> wrote:
> >
> > Two comments: 1) "A fool and his money are soon parted".
> > 2) Caveat Emptor.
> >
> > That said, it doesn't seem to be a bad attempt at modeling the
> > prototype, and the unknown builder may well have used three Varney
> > mechanisms in the process (I cannot tell from the poor photos). If
> > so, he (or she) could have done worse. It was not at all uncommon for
> > custom locomotive builders in the '30s right up into the '50s to use
> > stock mechanisms as a easy means of reducing costs and saving a lot of
> > time.
> >
> > Denny
> >
> > Denny S. Anspach MD
> > Sacramento
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13507 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Bob, concerning your comment; "Or is it a fraud, a word no one has dared up
up to this point." -- I stated this was bogus -- essentially having the
same meaning. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13508 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Gerold, Are you starting to believe that Lou English actually made a
Triplex. If he did, how come no one ever heard of this model and why was it never
in any of his Bowser catalogs? Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13509 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
erieberk@... wrote:
 

Gerold, Are you starting to believe that Lou English actually made a
Triplex. If he did, how come no one ever heard of this model and why was it never
in any of his Bowser catalogs? Ray F.W.</HTML>

_
Hmm, seems my English was insuffient to clearly tell what I think...

- I suggested to ask Lee English if he has one of them in his collection, as the seller claims.

- I am 99% sure this whole thing is an outrageous fraud attempt. First I thought the seller is acting in good faith but is not knowledgeabe - in the meantime I am sure he knows very well whats up.

by coincidence, I read a funny story a few days ago that would fit right here:

http://www.zug.com/pranks/powerbook/

Have fun!

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13510 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: odd ebay item
Jim, Your "much earlier post" of 9:03 AM this morning in which you stated
you like to use "never say never" may have been "much earlier" than my post
of 9:47 AM (which I agree to) but I hadn't the opportunity to see it when it
was posted, as by that time I had already started my reply somewhere around
8:55 AM (which I finished later in that hour) and you had not posted yet.
It sometimes takes me near an hour to complete a reply as during the process
I often temporarily leave the computer and look up facts in books and/or
catalogs or check out pieces in my own collection to compare or verify what is
being discussed, while still leaving my Reply page open, adding to it as I
come across more info. Such was the case in that response of mine. Had I
seen your statement, that you didn't believe this Triplex was a Varney, I
would have had no cause to quote your now "famous" statement, nor ask you about
your present stance in "never say never" as it pertains to this model, but I
never saw it until after I completed and sent my reply page. Apologies on
that, but then too, I guess not having seen a response to you on this
subject since it was first posted the previous evening, I wasn't sure whether to
expect one from you on this, and your famous line has now become well known.
I, too, held off commenting until this morning.

I will also agree with you on the many manufacturers' lines needing to take
an attitude of never say never when keeping in mind the various unknown and
uncataloged items produced by them, which we may not know of yet -- and
I'll never dispute your stance on that. I did feel that this was one time when
this approach just would not apply as there is nothing even remotely
familiar about this model that associates it with Varney's work or designs, with
exception of the pilot truck used on the tender, which would lead me to
believe that here was not an exception to this "never" rule. I think it is
becoming increasingly obvious that this model being represented as a Varney
product is a scam, and is being fraudulently represented. We might even excuse
this guy if he didn't know better than to use just the Varney truck to I.D.
this model, but his further statements about Lew English "supporting" a
connection in verification of this bogus Triplex shows his true intentions.

I don't fault you with taking a step back and being sure about things, as
there are still too many uncertainties out there, and I'm with you on that
100%, if only taking into consideration the mysteries still surrounding Adams &
Son, and their place in the whole scheme of things but there is still so
much more we don't know about. It's too premature to jump to conclusions of
which we may not know everything about.

On your question about which Yellowstone boiler came first, the aluminum
one or the brass one, this might also be asked in the context of which boiler
was first used in the pre-War Yellowstone KIT (as opposed to which boiler
was first available). There are a number of points that need to be
considered here, and some of what you're quoting from Spanagel needs to be taken into
consideration with the rest of his statement on these models. For starters
though, I cannot verify what Spangel says about when the Yellowstone (with
either boiler) was first introduced -- which he states as July, 1938 -- and
which I could (would) not support when I proofread his manuscript; I have no
idea where he got this information, even while it may be correct, or
whether he just took Scott Maze's (the collector sited in the Guide) word for the
starting date of the Yellowstone. I would add, that just as I have the
"Varney Model Railways" First Edition 12-Panel Catalog/Brochure that I just got
done describing, I also have the Second Edition of this, which as far as I
know came out in mid-year in July/August 1938. If Varney had already brought
out this Yellowstone by this time, why did he not include it in this
catalog version?

Your question is not one which I have not considered even some years ago,
as I have looked into this with as much literature as I have on hand (still
not really extensive when trying to establish facts on an otherwise mystery,
but I believe enough). I see the Yellowstone first included in the 1939
catalog as a kit (and built) -- TOTAL weight of this engine stated by Varney to
be 2 1/4 pounds (less ballast). Now, "less ballast" would seem to indicate
at first that the brass boiler was first used in the kit (of 1939) as it
would seem (by Spanagel) that this was the only boiler that would accept a
ballast; BTW, there were no boilers offered to be sold separately that year.
Neither, were there any boilers sold separately in the 1938 catalogs, which
did not include this model. Pre-War Yellowstone boilers (both aluminum and
brass) were first offered separately in 1940 and again in 1941, in addition
to the kit (and finished engine) -- The aluminum boiler advertised as
weighing 3/4 pounds, and the brass boiler advertised as weighing 2 1/2 pounds -- a
full 1/4 pound more than the complete kit was advertised to weigh. This
indicated to me, that the brass boiler could not have been used in the kit,
regardless of the "fact(?)" that Spanagel says the aluminum boiler had no
cavity above the front set of drivers -- and might be construed to mean it
couldn't accept a ballast.

Perhaps a ballast was installed in the hollow above the rear set of
drivers, ahead of the V-1 motor (a little tight, I would think, although maybe it
was placed there), but I can't verify this -- I can only add the weight of
the aluminum boiler (at 3/4 pound) to the two frames, eight sets of drivers,
motor, front and rear trucks, etc., totalling probably the 2 1/4 pounds this
kit (and finished loco) was advertised at. A brass boiler at 2 1/2 pounds,
added to the weight of all the running gear with motor would naturally weigh
MUCH more than the advertised weight for this engine, even while it was
already weighing somewhat more than a complete engine just by itself. Spanagel
does state in context with the fully assembled model (although it's unclear
whether he's pertaining to this), that "Because the V-1 motor was limited
in the weight it could move, a lightweight aluminum boiler was used instead
of the heavier bronze." His statement here though does not indicate when
this decision took place, whether Varney included this boiler with the kit or
the finished loco -- or both. The Yellowstone was offered either as a kit or
factory finished since it was first advertised in the the 1939 catalog,
through the 1941 catalog. For the other members here, I just want to make
clear that I'm not referring to post-War items here, although it's widely known
that the bronze boiler was re-introduced after the War. After considering
all the data included in Varney's catalogs, and nothing necessarily
influencing me from Spanagel's Guide (although he makes some good points about the
V-1's limitations), I'm convinced it was the aluminum boiler that Varney
included in his first Yellowstone kits (and perhaps [probably?] the finished
models as well), with the brass boiler being offered only separately, also along
with the aluminum boiler in the list of "Locomotive Bodies -- Parts." in
the '40 and '41 catalogs. Ray Wetzel </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13511 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/7/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Jim, The Varney #1936 4-wheel pilot truck does have brass wheels (with
steel axles), but it's body is one-piece cast zamac. While any other
manufacturer could have probably contracted to buy and use them on their own models, I
doubt that any would -- especially brass model manufacturers who would
probably prefer all-brass parts -- and I really doubt Varney would outsource his
parts to other manufacturers. If he did, why wouldn't he have remove his
I.D. from them?</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13512 From: jim heckard Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: odd ebay item
Ray F W,
 
    Thank you for your reply and as usual great explanation. I can only go on Spanagel's book and some paperwork about early Varney Yellowstones in general. Missing those early catalogs limits my knowledge. Reading the few paragraphs in the Varney guide about the early Yellowstone  and without my strong cup of coffee I have to rely on other information which I can count on you to supply.
 
                                            Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:21 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd ebay item

 

Jim, Your "much earlier post" of 9:03 AM this morning in which you stated
you like to use "never say never" may have been "much earlier" than my post
of 9:47 AM (which I agree to) but I hadn't the opportunity to see it when it
was posted, as by that time I had already started my reply somewhere around
8:55 AM (which I finished later in that hour) and you had not posted yet.
It sometimes takes me near an hour to complete a reply as during the process
I often temporarily leave the computer and look up facts in books and/or
catalogs or check out pieces in my own collection to compare or verify what is
being discussed, while still leaving my Reply page open, adding to it as I
come across more info. Such was the case in that response of mine. Had I
seen your statement, that you didn't believe this Triplex was a Varney, I
would have had no cause to quote your now "famous" statement, nor ask you about
your present stance in "never say never" as it pertains to this model, but I
never saw it until after I completed and sent my reply page. Apologies on
that, but then too, I guess not having seen a response to you on this
subject since it was first posted the previous evening, I wasn't sure whether to
expect one from you on this, and your famous line has now become well known.
I, too, held off commenting until this morning.

I will also agree with you on the many manufacturers' lines needing to take
an attitude of never say never when keeping in mind the various unknown and
uncataloged items produced by them, which we may not know of yet -- and
I'll never dispute your stance on that. I did feel that this was one time when
this approach just would not apply as there is nothing even remotely
familiar about this model that associates it with Varney's work or designs, with
exception of the pilot truck used on the tender, which would lead me to
believe that here was not an exception to this "never" rule. I think it is
becoming increasingly obvious that this model being represented as a Varney
product is a scam, and is being fraudulently represented. We might even excuse
this guy if he didn't know better than to use just the Varney truck to I.D.
this model, but his further statements about Lew English "supporting" a
connection in verification of this bogus Triplex shows his true intentions.

I don't fault you with taking a step back and being sure about things, as
there are still too many uncertainties out there, and I'm with you on that
100%, if only taking into consideration the mysteries still surrounding Adams &
Son, and their place in the whole scheme of things but there is still so
much more we don't know about. It's too premature to jump to conclusions of
which we may not know everything about.

On your question about which Yellowstone boiler came first, the aluminum
one or the brass one, this might also be asked in the context of which boiler
was first used in the pre-War Yellowstone KIT (as opposed to which boiler
was first available). There are a number of points that need to be
considered here, and some of what you're quoting from Spanagel needs to be taken into
consideration with the rest of his statement on these models. For starters
though, I cannot verify what Spangel says about when the Yellowstone (with
either boiler) was first introduced -- which he states as July, 1938 -- and
which I could (would) not support when I proofread his manuscript; I have no
idea where he got this information, even while it may be correct, or
whether he just took Scott Maze's (the collector sited in the Guide) word for the
starting date of the Yellowstone. I would add, that just as I have the
"Varney Model Railways" First Edition 12-Panel Catalog/Brochure that I just got
done describing, I also have the Second Edition of this, which as far as I
know came out in mid-year in July/August 1938. If Varney had already brought
out this Yellowstone by this time, why did he not include it in this
catalog version?

Your question is not one which I have not considered even some years ago,
as I have looked into this with as much literature as I have on hand (still
not really extensive when trying to establish facts on an otherwise mystery,
but I believe enough). I see the Yellowstone first included in the 1939
catalog as a kit (and built) -- TOTAL weight of this engine stated by Varney to
be 2 1/4 pounds (less ballast). Now, "less ballast" would seem to indicate
at first that the brass boiler was first used in the kit (of 1939) as it
would seem (by Spanagel) that this was the only boiler that would accept a
ballast; BTW, there were no boilers offered to be sold separately that year.
Neither, were there any boilers sold separately in the 1938 catalogs, which
did not include this model. Pre-War Yellowstone boilers (both aluminum and
brass) were first offered separately in 1940 and again in 1941, in addition
to the kit (and finished engine) -- The aluminum boiler advertised as
weighing 3/4 pounds, and the brass boiler advertised as weighing 2 1/2 pounds -- a
full 1/4 pound more than the complete kit was advertised to weigh. This
indicated to me, that the brass boiler could not have been used in the kit,
regardless of the "fact(?)" that Spanagel says the aluminum boiler had no
cavity above the front set of drivers -- and might be construed to mean it
couldn't accept a ballast.

Perhaps a ballast was installed in the hollow above the rear set of
drivers, ahead of the V-1 motor (a little tight, I would think, although maybe it
was placed there), but I can't verify this -- I can only add the weight of
the aluminum boiler (at 3/4 pound) to the two frames, eight sets of drivers,
motor, front and rear trucks, etc., totalling probably the 2 1/4 pounds this
kit (and finished loco) was advertised at. A brass boiler at 2 1/2 pounds,
added to the weight of all the running gear with motor would naturally weigh
MUCH more than the advertised weight for this engine, even while it was
already weighing somewhat more than a complete engine just by itself. Spanagel
does state in context with the fully assembled model (although it's unclear
whether he's pertaining to this), that "Because the V-1 motor was limited
in the weight it could move, a lightweight aluminum boiler was used instead
of the heavier bronze." His statement here though does not indicate when
this decision took place, whether Varney included this boiler with the kit or
the finished loco -- or both. The Yellowstone was offered either as a kit or
factory finished since it was first advertised in the the 1939 catalog,
through the 1941 catalog. For the other members here, I just want to make
clear that I'm not referring to post-War items here, although it's widely known
that the bronze boiler was re-introduced after the War. After considering
all the data included in Varney's catalogs, and nothing necessarily
influencing me from Spanagel's Guide (although he makes some good points about the
V-1's limitations) , I'm convinced it was the aluminum boiler that Varney
included in his first Yellowstone kits (and perhaps [probably?] the finished
models as well), with the brass boiler being offered only separately, also along
with the aluminum boiler in the list of "Locomotive Bodies -- Parts." in
the '40 and '41 catalogs. Ray Wetzel </HTML>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13513 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Hi Gerold, (and All!),

At first I also thought the seller might be simply acting based upon faulty infomation, but so many of his other surrounding statements are unsupported by verfiable fact, it makes whatever he says highly doubtful. For instance, though he claims rainy days, if one takes a closer look at his Triplex photographs and the background, it seems as if he is in a dark barn or shed, yet it looks like it is bright and even sunny outside, LOL. Some of the other items he is selling at the same time were taken indoors, under artificial and better lighting. It strains credibility that he would not take pains to photograph his most valuable model in a better light and then claim rainy day problems.

And he keeps "copy and pasting" the statement puportedly from Lee English. If true, Lew English may have "one" in his collection, and tezz55 may have another, but Lee English's pasted words do not even memtion what locomotive is being discussed. If there are two of what is pictured, in my humble opinion, it is more likely that a professional custom builder such as Joe Dorazio(sp) or others could have constructed one or more Triplexes using some Varney componants, likely in the post WW-2 years. I understand that is the case with the Erie 0-8-8-0 Angus camelbacks as three were reportedly custom built in the late 1950's for sale through a Pennsylvania hobby shop, while others such as mine, were constructed by individual modelers using Mantua mechinisms and generally following guidelines in a RMC Bill Schopp article.

All in all, an interesting locomotive I would not mind picking up at a show as someone lese mentioned, for two decimals to the left of his price. Those Triplexes and the Virginian's 2-10-10-2's did have small shoes (drivers) in proportion to their fatter boilers.

Enjoyed the story about the notepad computer.

W. Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
>
> erieberk@... wrote:
> >
> >
> > Gerold, Are you starting to believe that Lou English actually made a
> > Triplex. If he did, how come no one ever heard of this model and why
> > was it never
> > in any of his Bowser catalogs? Ray F.W.</HTML>
> >
> > _
> Hmm, seems my English was insuffient to clearly tell what I think...
>
> - I suggested to ask Lee English if he has one of them in his
> collection, as the seller claims.
>
> - I am 99% sure this whole thing is an outrageous fraud attempt. First I
> thought the seller is acting in good faith but is not knowledgeabe - in
> the meantime I am sure he knows very well whats up.
>
> by coincidence, I read a funny story a few days ago that would fit right
> here:
>
> http://www.zug.com/pranks/powerbook/
>
> Have fun!
>
> Gerold
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13514 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Friction Clutches, Fluid Drives and Planetary Transmissions
I used to have a Revell switcher with a centrifugal clutch.  It did cut down on the jackrabbit starts.  I actually liked it.  When I built my Hobbytown drives, I chose the brass flywheel over the clutch, at the advice of other modelers in the club that I was in at the time.  Still have the Hobytown locos running, but do not have the Revell.  I since picked up two Revell switchers at swap meets, but neither has the clutch drive.
 
Brad Smith
Franklin, WI
Group: vintageHO Message: 13515 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: odd ebay item
jim heckard wrote:
>
>
> Ray F W,
>
> Thank you for your reply and as usual great explanation. I can
> only go on Spanagel's book and some paperwork about early Varney
> Yellowstones in general. Missing those early catalogs limits my
> knowledge. Reading the few paragraphs in the Varney guide about the
> early Yellowstone and without my strong cup of coffee I have to rely
> on other information which I can count on you to supply.
>

Hi Jim, and all,
just learned from my friend Brian that the Varney 2-8-8-4 ( he has one
of them) was modeled after the Northern Pacific's Z-5 and looks
completely different than the "Triplex" from down under. I only quote
him, have no personal knowledge about prewar stuff.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13516 From: jim heckard Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: odd Ebay item.
W Jay W,  All,
 
             I'm sure that all group members commenting on the so called Varney Triplex from 1936 for sale on Ebay agree that it is not what is stated let alone 50 pcs by Gordon Varney were made.  Has anyone mentioned to the seller that the 4 wheel pilot truck Varney 1936 is a part number on a Varney produced part and not the year made ?  Has anyone ask seller for the name of the person who is supposed to have an entirely similar Varney engine so again we can verify the seller is not also just talking about a Varney truck with the part number 1936 on that engine ?  What is the name of the specific site he claims is on Google that says there is a Varney 1936 Triplex and not just disjointed words with no connection ?  Does the seller have something in writing from others stating the wording Varney 1936 ( or any date ) Triplex is what is being discussed and not just statements he claims have been made to him concerning a triplex in general?  Finally does his Email from Lew English of Bowser clearly and unequivocally show /state that Mr. English has a Varney produced 1936 Triplex in his collection and not just a Triplex style engine.( I have to find a way to get a message to Mr. Lew English himself, and not just to the Bowser Company, to find out what was ask of him about this engine and what did he respond ).
 
    Is the seller so out of it and just wants to believe that he has a rare Varney Triplex and not just a Triplex that someone made using a  Varney Truck?  If not then he is  a Snake Oil Salesman who will try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge next.
 
                                     Jim H
 
   
Group: vintageHO Message: 13517 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: odd Ebay item.
Hi Jim,
 
Yes.. I told the seller it is most likely a part number as most if not all Varney part numbers are marked with the part numbers. I am also the one that forwarded his reply to the group, in which he stated about the poor picture quality being due to it being over-cast there.
 
In any case, this is how I think about the entire situation... Other than certain the members of this group, I personally do not know of any other experts from which we can turn to, to prove or disprove this sellers claim. I know Dave Spangle is out there, but I am not sure of his affiliation to this group.
 
I know myself, at age 39, in a very short period of time (5 years) I have become quite versed in recognizing Varney pieces and have done very well enhancing my collection by bidding on eBay auctions with bad descriptions and poor photographs because of my good eye. Within the past 5 year, I have amassed just in the ones i have stored, not including the couple I have displayed, over 71 pounds of Varney pacifics, mikados, consolidations, mountains, berkshires and one yellowstone (shell).  
 
But when it comes to items of this age and suggested rarity, without being able to recognize a single part in the bad photos, I have to rely on you elder gents who may have been around then or knew someone close to the Varney organization to offer guidence in this matter. If the seller will/can not provide verification of his claims and if we all agree that this engine is not what it is clamed to be and there is no one else out there to set the record straight, then it is our responsibility as the VintageHO and varney collecting community of enthusiests to report the item as possible scam attempt.
 
Bothering with the seller himself any further on the matter would be pointless and fruitless for all of us...
 
Sean


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, March 8, 2010 1:34:26 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] odd Ebay item.

 

W Jay W,  All,
 
             I'm sure that all group members commenting on the so called Varney Triplex from 1936 for sale on Ebay agree that it is not what is stated let alone 50 pcs by Gordon Varney were made.  Has anyone mentioned to the seller that the 4 wheel pilot truck Varney 1936 is a part number on a Varney produced part and not the year made ?  Has anyone ask seller for the name of the person who is supposed to have an entirely similar Varney engine so again we can verify the seller is not also just talking about a Varney truck with the part number 1936 on that engine ?  What is the name of the specific site he claims is on Google that says there is a Varney 1936 Triplex and not just disjointed words with no connection ?  Does the seller have something in writing from others stating the wording Varney 1936 ( or any date ) Triplex is what is being discussed and not just statements he claims have been made to him concerning a triplex in general?  Finally does his Email from Lew English of Bowser clearly and unequivocally show /state that Mr. English has a Varney produced 1936 Triplex in his collection and not just a Triplex style engine.( I have to find a way to get a message to Mr. Lew English himself, and not just to the Bowser Company, to find out what was ask of him about this engine and what did he respond ).
 
    Is the seller so out of it and just wants to believe that he has a rare Varney Triplex and not just a Triplex that someone made using a  Varney Truck?  If not then he is  a Snake Oil Salesman who will try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge next.
 
                                     Jim H
 
   

Group: vintageHO Message: 13518 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: odd Ebay item.

Yes--by all means let's just let it ride--then see how he re-lists it when it doesn't sell.  I doubt that there is anyone out there with "more dollars than sense"  at least with an item like this.  I assume someone is following it and will report progress to the rest of us.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] odd Ebay item.

Hi Jim,
 
Yes.. I told the seller it is most likely a part number as most if not all Varney part numbers are marked with the part numbers. I am also the one that forwarded his reply to the group, in which he stated about the poor picture quality being due to it being over-cast there.
 
In any case, this is how I think about the entire situation... Other than certain the members of this group, I personally do not know of any other experts from which we can turn to, to prove or disprove this sellers claim. I know Dave Spangle is out there, but I am not sure of his affiliation to this group.
 
I know myself, at age 39, in a very short period of time (5 years) I have become quite versed in recognizing Varney pieces and have done very well enhancing my collection by bidding on eBay auctions with bad descriptions and poor photographs because of my good eye. Within the past 5 year, I have amassed just in the ones i have stored, not including the couple I have displayed, over 71 pounds of Varney pacifics, mikados, consolidations, mountains, berkshires and one yellowstone (shell).  
 
But when it comes to items of this age and suggested rarity, without being able to recognize a single part in the bad photos, I have to rely on you elder gents who may have been around then or knew someone close to the Varney organization to offer guidence in this matter. If the seller will/can not provide verification of his claims and if we all agree that this engine is not what it is clamed to be and there is no one else out there to set the record straight, then it is our responsibility as the VintageHO and varney collecting community of enthusiests to report the item as possible scam attempt.
 
Bothering with the seller himself any further on the matter would be pointless and fruitless for all of us...
 
Sean


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, March 8, 2010 1:34:26 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] odd Ebay item.

 

W Jay W,  All,
 
             I'm sure that all group members commenting on the so called Varney Triplex from 1936 for sale on Ebay agree that it is not what is stated let alone 50 pcs by Gordon Varney were made.  Has anyone mentioned to the seller that the 4 wheel pilot truck Varney 1936 is a part number on a Varney produced part and not the year made ?  Has anyone ask seller for the name of the person who is supposed to have an entirely similar Varney engine so again we can verify the seller is not also just talking about a Varney truck with the part number 1936 on that engine ?  What is the name of the specific site he claims is on Google that says there is a Varney 1936 Triplex and not just disjointed words with no connection ?  Does the seller have something in writing from others stating the wording Varney 1936 ( or any date ) Triplex is what is being discussed and not just statements he claims have been made to him concerning a triplex in general?  Finally does his Email from Lew English of Bowser clearly and unequivocally show /state that Mr. English has a Varney produced 1936 Triplex in his collection and not just a Triplex style engine.( I have to find a way to get a message to Mr. Lew English himself, and not just to the Bowser Company, to find out what was ask of him about this engine and what did he respond ).
 
    Is the seller so out of it and just wants to believe that he has a rare Varney Triplex and not just a Triplex that someone made using a  Varney Truck?  If not then he is  a Snake Oil Salesman who will try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge next.
 
                                     Jim H
 
   

Group: vintageHO Message: 13519 From: tebee2 Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Help identifying an early Hudson
I have an early cast bodied Hudson I bought some time ago in very poor condition, I was told it was one of the Graham Farish ones from the early 50's, but having compared it to a couple on ebay recently it's different.

The most striking thing about it is it has a traverse mounted three pole permanent magnet motor and spur drive to all wheels.

I've some photos in a thread on another forum here
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/9939-a-pennsylvanian-shortline/page__st__100__gopid__97773&#entry977
Group: vintageHO Message: 13520 From: fchlupp Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Vintage Varney and Athearn Tank Car Parts Wanted
Looking for Varney metal tank car frames and car details and Athearn metal tank car frames,running board supports,bolster blocks,corner steps and hand rail clips. Thanks much!! Fred
Group: vintageHO Message: 13521 From: rrdrigg Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Athearn 4-6-2
Need front trucks for Athearn 4-6-2. Can anyone help or tell me of a truck that will work?
Also have a tender for this unit that is wired inside with connector but the engine has no connector. Did Atheran make a unit that connected to the tender for power and one that did not?
Thanks
Group: vintageHO Message: 13522 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
I read the link.
I think it's an early Flyer.
They made 4-6-4's back at least as far as 1938.
Numbers like 112, 150, etc.

The boiler looks Flyer.
Later ones, with the smaller motors, added a line on fireman's side once they did away with the motor sticking out the side.

Dave

> I have an early cast bodied Hudson I bought some time ago in very poor condition, I was told it was one of the Graham Farish ones from the early 50's, but having compared it to a couple on ebay recently it's different.
>
> The most striking thing about it is it has a traverse mounted three pole permanent magnet motor and spur drive to all wheels.
>
> I've some photos in a thread on another forum here
> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/9939-a-pennsylvanian-shortline/page__st__100__gopid__97773&#entry977
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13523 From: Dale Smith Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
I also noted the photos being taken inside, but being a naturally
suspicious type, I checked the weather in Brisbane, Australia ( he is in
a suburb of Brisbane) and it actually was raining! That may be the
only claim he has made that has been verified as correct.

Dale

the_plainsman wrote:
>
>
> Hi Gerold, (and All!),
>
> At first I also thought the seller might be simply acting based upon
> faulty infomation, but so many of his other surrounding statements are
> unsupported by verfiable fact, it makes whatever he says highly
> doubtful. For instance, though he claims rainy days, if one takes a
> closer look at his Triplex photographs and the background, it seems as
> if he is in a dark barn or shed, yet it looks like it is bright and
> even sunny outside, LOL. Some of the other items he is selling at the
> same time were taken indoors, under artificial and better lighting. It
> strains credibility that he would not take pains to photograph his
> most valuable model in a better light and then claim rainy day problems.
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13524 From: Dale Smith Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
From looking at the photos, I don't think it is Flyer. The flyer tender
casting had a high coal pile cast in. If it is Flyer, it would have to
be an early 200 from 38-39, but those had a vertically mounted AC motor.
The double window, as opposed to the quad window puts it in that date
range if it is Flyer. Also the wheels should be Bakelite with brass rims
for Gilbert. I also believe that the tender castings for Gilbert
products had the name cast in the tender around the water hatch.

Dale

trainsnwrcs wrote:
>
>
> I read the link.
> I think it's an early Flyer.
> They made 4-6-4's back at least as far as 1938.
> Numbers like 112, 150, etc.
>
> The boiler looks Flyer.
> Later ones, with the smaller motors, added a line on fireman's side
> once they did away with the motor sticking out the side.
>
> Dave
>
> > I have an early cast bodied Hudson I bought some time ago in very
> poor condition, I was told it was one of the Graham Farish ones from
> the early 50's, but having compared it to a couple on ebay recently
> it's different.
> >
> > The most striking thing about it is it has a traverse mounted three
> pole permanent magnet motor and spur drive to all wheels.
> >
> > I've some photos in a thread on another forum here
> >
> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/9939-a-pennsylvanian-shortline/page__st__100__gopid__97773&#entry977
> <http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/9939-a-pennsylvanian-shortline/page__st__100__gopid__97773&#entry977>
> >
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13525 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Well W Jay W,
 
Considering that Australia is right in the middle of their summer now, I can see that so called overcast daze from now until eternity! Must be overcast with sunshine!
 
Gary W
 

 
Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, March 8, 2010 8:53:32 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

Hi Gerold, (and All!),

At first I also thought the seller might be simply acting based upon faulty infomation, but so many of his other surrounding statements are unsupported by verfiable fact, it makes whatever he says highly doubtful. For instance, though he claims rainy days, if one takes a closer look at his Triplex photographs and the background, it seems as if he is in a dark barn or shed, yet it looks like it is bright and even sunny outside, LOL. Some of the other items he is selling at the same time were taken indoors, under artificial and better lighting. It strains credibility that he would not take pains to photograph his most valuable model in a better light and then claim rainy day problems.

And he keeps "copy and pasting" the statement puportedly from Lee English. If true, Lew English may have "one" in his collection, and tezz55 may have another, but Lee English's pasted words do not even memtion what locomotive is being discussed. If there are two of what is pictured, in my humble opinion, it is more likely that a professional custom builder such as Joe Dorazio(sp) or others could have constructed one or more Triplexes using some Varney componants, likely in the post WW-2 years. I understand that is the case with the Erie 0-8-8-0 Angus camelbacks as three were reportedly custom built in the late 1950's for sale through a Pennsylvania hobby shop, while others such as mine, were constructed by individual modelers using Mantua mechinisms and generally following guidelines in a RMC Bill Schopp article.

All in all, an interesting locomotive I would not mind picking up at a show as someone lese mentioned, for two decimals to the left of his price. Those Triplexes and the Virginian's 2-10-10-2's did have small shoes (drivers) in proportion to their fatter boilers.

Enjoyed the story about the notepad computer.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:

>
> erieberk@... wrote:
> >
> >
> > Gerold, Are you starting to believe that Lou English actually made a
> > Triplex. If he did, how come no one ever heard of this model and why
> > was it never
> > in any of his Bowser catalogs? Ray F.W.</HTML>
> >
> > _
> Hmm, seems my English was insuffient to clearly tell what I think...
>
> - I suggested to ask Lee English if he has one of them in his
> collection, as the seller claims.
>
> - I am 99% sure this whole thing is an outrageous fraud attempt. First I
> thought the seller is acting in good faith but is not knowledgeabe - in
> the meantime I am sure he knows very well whats
up.
>
> by coincidence, I read a funny story a few days ago that would fit right
> here:
>
> http://www.zug. com/pranks/ powerbook/
>
> Have fun!
>
> Gerold
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13526 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-2
I might have a 4 wheel lead truck for that loco.  I will look and contact you later this evening.
Athearn made several varieties of this loco.  The first one or 2 had two leads that plugged into the front of the tender.  These had plastic drivers on the loco.  The last one I saw had metal drivers and all pickup and return was in the loco with no electrical connection to the tender.
Don Staton in VA
=======================================================

rrdrigg wrote:
 

Need front trucks for Athearn 4-6-2. Can anyone help or tell me of a truck that will work?
Also have a tender for this unit that is wired inside with connector but the engine has no connector. Did Atheran make a unit that connected to the tender for power and one that did not?
Thanks

Group: vintageHO Message: 13527 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
Interesting: The mechanism appears to be Flyer. I have a 2-pane cab window engine I picked up on eBay, that had those same driver wheels too (Though a brass frame and a Varney motor inside).

That engine came with a tender with nothing in raised letters on the back water tank deck (Though I have two more tenders that DO have raised letters!). The engine came with prewar cars - some lighted diecast Flyer Osgood-Bradley coaches, and some prewar Megow's and Comet cars.

Very interesting...


-Steve Neubaum

--- On Mon, 3/8/10, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...> wrote:

From: Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, March 8, 2010, 4:22 PM

From looking at the photos, I don't think it is Flyer. The flyer tender
casting had a high coal pile cast in. If it is Flyer, it would have to
be an early 200 from 38-39, but those had a vertically mounted AC motor.
The double window, as opposed to the quad window puts it in that date
range if it is Flyer. Also the wheels should be Bakelite with brass rims
for Gilbert. I also believe that the tender castings for Gilbert
products had the name cast in the tender around the water hatch.

Dale

trainsnwrcs wrote:
>
>
> I read the link.
> I think it's an early Flyer.
> They made 4-6-4's back at least as far as 1938.
> Numbers like 112, 150, etc.
>
> The boiler looks Flyer.
> Later ones, with the smaller motors, added a line on fireman's side
> once they did away with the motor sticking out the side.
>
> Dave
>
> > I have an early cast bodied Hudson I bought some time ago in very
> poor condition, I was told it was one of the Graham Farish ones from
> the early 50's, but having compared it to a couple on ebay recently
> it's different.
> >
> > The most striking thing about it is it has a traverse mounted three
> pole permanent magnet motor and spur drive to all wheels.
> >
> > I've some photos in a thread on another forum here
> >
> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/9939-a-pennsylvanian-shortline/page__st__100__gopid__97773&#entry977
> <http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/9939-a-pennsylvanian-shortline/page__st__100__gopid__97773&#entry977>
> >
>
>


------------------------------------

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Group: vintageHO Message: 13528 From: jim heckard Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-2
   
          There were 3 versions of the early Athearn 4-6-2  Pacific sold. ( assuming that is the Athearn steam you are talking about and not a newer version )The first two runs, one roughly in 1960 and one in 1961 had pickup from the tender with wires going from the tender to the engine. The later and last version made and sold from 1962 -1965 had electrical pickup in the engine only and the tender went along for a free ride. To see if you have this version just put the two leads from a train transformer to both sides of the drivers and it should run if the engine is working properly. (It would have blackened Metal Drivers and the brass worm gear from the motor would be attached to the middle driver for further ID ).
 
    You might have one style of tender wired for tender pickup and an engine that picked up all power itself. If you have access to a Greenberg Guide to Athearn trains you could read about the types. You can go to www.hoseeker.net click on literature , find Athearn and pull up the paperwork for an Athearn 4-6-2 but not sure what versions he has. 
 
 Can't help with the lead truck for the early Athearn 4-6-2 and not sure what scale wheel size it was but sure you could match a Varney or Mantua pilot / lead truck to it. Depending on the type of engine as far as electrical pickup you might have to be careful to use a completely insulated ( all wheels ) lead truck.
 
 Good luck.
 
                                       Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: rrdrigg
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 3:45 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 4-6-2

 

Need front trucks for Athearn 4-6-2. Can anyone help or tell me of a truck that will work?
Also have a tender for this unit that is wired inside with connector but the engine has no connector. Did Atheran make a unit that connected to the tender for power and one that did not?
Thanks

Group: vintageHO Message: 13529 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Almost every picture I take for every one of my listings, is taken indoors.
 
Sean


From: Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, March 8, 2010 4:48:37 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

I also noted the photos being taken inside, but being a naturally
suspicious type, I checked the weather in Brisbane, Australia ( he is in
a suburb of Brisbane) and it actually was raining! That may be the
only claim he has made that has been verified as correct.

Dale

the_plainsman wrote:

>
>
> Hi Gerold, (and All!),
>
> At first I also thought the seller might be simply acting based upon
> faulty infomation, but so many of his other surrounding statements are
> unsupported by verfiable fact, it makes whatever he says highly
> doubtful. For instance, though he claims rainy days, if one takes a
> closer look at his Triplex photographs and the background, it seems as
> if he is in a dark barn or shed, yet it looks like it is bright and
> even sunny outside, LOL. Some of the other items he is selling at the
> same time were taken indoors, under
artificial and better lighting. It
> strains credibility that he would not take pains to photograph his
> most valuable model in a better light and then claim rainy day problems.
>
>
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13530 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: odd Ebay item.
Glenn476 wrote:
> Yes--by all means let's just let it ride--then see how he re-lists it
> when it doesn't sell. I doubt that there is anyone out there with "more
> dollars than sense" at least with an item like this. I assume someone
> is following it and will report progress to the rest of us. gj

At the very least he should probably be reported to eBay Australia
for insisting that the amount listed should be taken to mean US dollars
rather than Australian dollars.

--

Rick Jones

In the 1960s people took LSD to make the world look weird. Now
the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it look normal.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13531 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
Look closely at the tender.
The original coal pile has been cut out.

>
> From: Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, March 8, 2010, 4:22 PM
>
> From looking at the photos, I don't think it is Flyer. The flyer tender
> casting had a high coal pile cast in. If it is Flyer, it would have to
> be an early 200 from 38-39, but those had a vertically mounted AC motor.
> The double window, as opposed to the quad window puts it in that date
> range if it is Flyer. Also the wheels should be Bakelite with brass rims
> for Gilbert. I also believe that the tender castings for Gilbert
> products had the name cast in the tender around the water hatch.
>
> Dale
>
> trainsnwrcs wrote:
> >
> >
> > I read the link.
> > I think it's an early Flyer.
> > They made 4-6-4's back at least as far as 1938.
> > Numbers like 112, 150, etc.
> >
> > The boiler looks Flyer.
> > Later ones, with the smaller motors, added a line on fireman's side
> > once they did away with the motor sticking out the side.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > > I have an early cast bodied Hudson I bought some time ago in very
> > poor condition, I was told it was one of the Graham Farish ones from
> > the early 50's, but having compared it to a couple on ebay recently
> > it's different.
> > >
> > > The most striking thing about it is it has a traverse mounted three
> > pole permanent magnet motor and spur drive to all wheels.
> > >
> > > I've some photos in a thread on another forum here
> > >
> > http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/9939-a-pennsylvanian-shortline/page__st__100__gopid__97773&#entry977
> > <http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/9939-a-pennsylvanian-shortline/page__st__100__gopid__97773&#entry977>
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13532 From: tebee2 Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
I've had a closer look at the tender and it looks as though the original coal load may have been cut away at some time, though they did a fairly neat job there are some tool marks on the inside of the rear coal sheet.

The wheels are very probably not the original ones. They look like Romfords, very popular scale replacement's from the 50's and 60's in the UK.

If it is a pre-war loco it still runs very well for a 70 year old veteran. The motor in this is very definitely a Permanent magnet DC motor with a huge magnet filling up most of the cab and firebox.

Tom

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
>
> Interesting: The mechanism appears to be Flyer. I have a 2-pane cab window engine I picked up on eBay, that had those same driver wheels too (Though a brass frame and a Varney motor inside).
>
> That engine came with a tender with nothing in raised letters on the back water tank deck (Though I have two more tenders that DO have raised letters!). The engine came with prewar cars - some lighted diecast Flyer Osgood-Bradley coaches, and some prewar Megow's and Comet cars.
>
> Very interesting...
>
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
> --- On Mon, 3/8/10, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...> wrote:
>
> From: Dale Smith <dfsmith26@...>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, March 8, 2010, 4:22 PM
>
> From looking at the photos, I don't think it is Flyer. The flyer tender
> casting had a high coal pile cast in. If it is Flyer, it would have to
> be an early 200 from 38-39, but those had a vertically mounted AC motor.
> The double window, as opposed to the quad window puts it in that date
> range if it is Flyer. Also the wheels should be Bakelite with brass rims
> for Gilbert. I also believe that the tender castings for Gilbert
> products had the name cast in the tender around the water hatch.
>
> Dale
>
> trainsnwrcs wrote:
> >
> >
> > I read the link.
> > I think it's an early Flyer.
> > They made 4-6-4's back at least as far as 1938.
> > Numbers like 112, 150, etc.
> >
> > The boiler looks Flyer.
> > Later ones, with the smaller motors, added a line on fireman's side
> > once they did away with the motor sticking out the side.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > > I have an early cast bodied Hudson I bought some time ago in very
> > poor condition, I was told it was one of the Graham Farish ones from
> > the early 50's, but having compared it to a couple on ebay recently
> > it's different.
> > >
> > > The most striking thing about it is it has a traverse mounted three
> > pole permanent magnet motor and spur drive to all wheels.
> > >
> > > I've some photos in a thread on another forum here
> > >
> > http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/9939-a-pennsylvanian-shortline/page__st__100__gopid__97773&#entry977
> > <http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/9939-a-pennsylvanian-shortline/page__st__100__gopid__97773&#entry977>
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13533 From: jim heckard Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
 
 
         I am going to weigh in on the engine in question. To me the boiler and the tender are American Flyer with some modifications. I'm sitting here with a pre war Gilbert / AF Flyer in front of me. Let me state my case. Start with the tender. As some have noted the original cast in coal load has been cut out. The usual cast in  embossed writing on the back top side of the tender most likely was ground away. I can't see the tender trucks enough to tell anything.
 
    Lets move on to the boiler. There were a couple of boiler bodies by A C Gilbert / American Flyer produced. I have paperwork by a Mr. R Lindsey # 696 ( TCA number perhaps ? ) that actually shows 5 different types most  just detail changes.
 
     I am going to talk about the two that were pre war  especially Type A - "A REAL PLAIN JANE" -the one that started it all. Probably a 1938 model. It list 9 distinct characteristics. The most important is No. 4 - Window in cab with VERTICAL STRIP ONLY  shown up to 1941 in catalogs ( Type B still considered pre war  had both horizontal and vertical dividers and had much more detail like piping cast on that the plain Type A didn't have .) My one finger typing will not last to list the differences but this Type A boiler looks exactly like the boiler in the pictures.
 
   As for the drive. I believe it to be a Graham Farish drive. I am not into English made items although I know the name Graham Farish and the beautiful Hudson he made. I have a 1954 date for it. To me the give away is the hefty square box at the back of the pictures sent with the boiler top off. 
]
    The really odd part is I have a listing for  McNeill Hobbies  selling under their name 4-6-4 Hudsons  1953 had tender mounted motor and 1954 had loco mounted motor. This same Vancouver B.C.Canadian  Hobby Shop also had Model Railroader ads selling the Graham Farish Hudson. While I can't be sure if this was just a mix up or Graham Farish took over the engine McNeill was selling has to be left to those knowing English / Canadian HO better then me.
 
     So for what ever it's worth I believe the pictures sent are a modified engine using a type A pre war Gilbert /A F boiler and tender with a Graham Farish motor/ drive unit. As for the tender trucks and drivers no idea whose they are but the trailing truck looks Gilbert / A F .
 
                                                  Jim H
 
                                              
----- Original Message -----
From: tebee2
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:35 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Help identifying an early Hudson

 

I've had a closer look at the tender and it looks as though the original coal load may have been cut away at some time, though they did a fairly neat job there are some tool marks on the inside of the rear coal sheet.

The wheels are very probably not the original ones. They look like Romfords, very popular scale replacement' s from the 50's and 60's in the UK.

If it is a pre-war loco it still runs very well for a 70 year old veteran. The motor in this is very definitely a Permanent magnet DC motor with a huge magnet filling up most of the cab and firebox.

Tom

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote:
>
> Interesting: The mechanism appears to be Flyer. I have a 2-pane cab window engine I picked up on eBay, that had those same driver wheels too (Though a brass frame and a Varney motor inside).
>
> That engine came with a tender with nothing in raised letters on the back water tank deck (Though I have two more tenders that DO have raised letters!). The engine came with prewar cars - some lighted diecast Flyer Osgood-Bradley coaches, and some prewar Megow's and Comet cars.
>
> Very interesting. ..
>
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
> --- On Mon, 3/8/10, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@. ..> wrote:
>
> From: Dale Smith <dfsmith26@. ..>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Monday, March 8, 2010, 4:22 PM
>
> From looking at the photos, I don't think it is Flyer. The flyer tender
> casting had a high coal pile cast in. If it is Flyer, it would have to
> be an early 200 from 38-39, but those had a vertically mounted AC motor.
> The double window, as opposed to the quad window puts it in that date
> range if it is Flyer. Also the wheels should be Bakelite with brass rims
> for Gilbert. I also believe that the tender castings for Gilbert
> products had the name cast in the tender around the water hatch.
>
> Dale
>
> trainsnwrcs wrote:
> >
> >
> > I read the link.
> > I think it's an early Flyer.
> > They made 4-6-4's back at least as far as 1938.
> > Numbers like 112, 150, etc.
> >
> > The boiler looks Flyer.
> > Later ones, with the smaller motors, added a line on fireman's side
> > once they did away with the motor sticking out the side.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > > I have an early cast bodied Hudson I bought some time ago in very
> > poor condition, I was told it was one of the Graham Farish ones from
> > the early 50's, but having compared it to a couple on ebay recently
> > it's different.
> > >
> > > The most striking thing about it is it has a traverse mounted three
> > pole permanent magnet motor and spur drive to all wheels.
> > >
> > > I've some photos in a thread on another forum here
> > >
> > http://www.rmweb. co.uk/community/ index.php/ topic/9939- a-pennsylvanian- shortline/ page__st_ _100__gopid_ _97773&#entry977
> > <http://www.rmweb. co.uk/community/ index.php/ topic/9939- a-pennsylvanian- shortline/ page__st_ _100__gopid_ _97773&#entry977>
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13534 From: Robert Driggers Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-2
Thanks for the information. The engine powers by itself. So I have the tender for the engine that needed the tender for power. Tender works fine with the engine used as though it was not a wired tender. 
 

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: jimheck@...
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 17:34:22 -0500
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 4-6-2

 
   
          There were 3 versions of the early Athearn 4-6-2  Pacific sold. ( assuming that is the Athearn steam you are talking about and not a newer version )The first two runs, one roughly in 1960 and one in 1961 had pickup from the tender with wires going from the tender to the engine. The later and last version made and sold from 1962 -1965 had electrical pickup in the engine only and the tender went along for a free ride. To see if you have this version just put the two leads from a train transformer to both sides of the drivers and it should run if the engine is working properly. (It would have blackened Metal Drivers and the brass worm gear from the motor would be attached to the middle driver for further ID ).
 
    You might have one style of tender wired for tender pickup and an engine that picked up all power itself. If you have access to a Greenberg Guide to Athearn trains you could read about the types. You can go to www.hoseeker. net click on literature , find Athearn and pull up the paperwork for an Athearn 4-6-2 but not sure what versions he has. 
 
 Can't help with the lead truck for the early Athearn 4-6-2 and not sure what scale wheel size it was but sure you could match a Varney or Mantua pilot / lead truck to it. Depending on the type of engine as far as electrical pickup you might have to be careful to use a completely insulated ( all wheels ) lead truck.
 
 Good luck.
 
                                       Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: rrdrigg
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 3:45 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 4-6-2

 

Need front trucks for Athearn 4-6-2. Can anyone help or tell me of a truck that will work?
Also have a tender for this unit that is wired inside with connector but the engine has no connector. Did Atheran make a unit that connected to the tender for power and one that did not?
Thanks





Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13535 From: DOM ST.JOHN Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
That is certainly a pre war Gilbert 38, 39 boiler shell. Same with the tender. Also Gilbert. The coal load looks to have been removed. The chassis could also be Gilbert as the pilot is Gilbert. The motor looks to have had a permanent magnet installed. There are pre war Gilbert Hudsons found with permanent magnets allowing them to run on DC. It's not unusual. The trailing truck does not look like Gilbert The lead truck does.
Dom

--- On Mon, 3/8/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, March 8, 2010, 7:37 PM

 

 
 
         I am going to weigh in on the engine in question. To me the boiler and the tender are American Flyer with some modifications. I'm sitting here with a pre war Gilbert / AF Flyer in front of me. Let me state my case. Start with the tender. As some have noted the original cast in coal load has been cut out. The usual cast in  embossed writing on the back top side of the tender most likely was ground away. I can't see the tender trucks enough to tell anything.
 
    Lets move on to the boiler. There were a couple of boiler bodies by A C Gilbert / American Flyer produced. I have paperwork by a Mr. R Lindsey # 696 ( TCA number perhaps ? ) that actually shows 5 different types most  just detail changes.
 
     I am going to talk about the two that were pre war  especially Type A - "A REAL PLAIN JANE" -the one that started it all. Probably a 1938 model. It list 9 distinct characteristics. The most important is No. 4 - Window in cab with VERTICAL STRIP ONLY  shown up to 1941 in catalogs ( Type B still considered pre war  had both horizontal and vertical dividers and had much more detail like piping cast on that the plain Type A didn't have .) My one finger typing will not last to list the differences but this Type A boiler looks exactly like the boiler in the pictures.
 
   As for the drive. I believe it to be a Graham Farish drive. I am not into English made items although I know the name Graham Farish and the beautiful Hudson he made. I have a 1954 date for it. To me the give away is the hefty square box at the back of the pictures sent with the boiler top off. 
]
    The really odd part is I have a listing for  McNeill Hobbies  selling under their name 4-6-4 Hudsons  1953 had tender mounted motor and 1954 had loco mounted motor. This same Vancouver B.C.Canadian  Hobby Shop also had Model Railroader ads selling the Graham Farish Hudson. While I can't be sure if this was just a mix up or Graham Farish took over the engine McNeill was selling has to be left to those knowing English / Canadian HO better then me.
 
     So for what ever it's worth I believe the pictures sent are a modified engine using a type A pre war Gilbert /A F boiler and tender with a Graham Farish motor/ drive unit. As for the tender trucks and drivers no idea whose they are but the trailing truck looks Gilbert / A F .
 
                                                  Jim H
 
                                              
----- Original Message -----
From: tebee2
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 6:35 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Help identifying an early Hudson

 

I've had a closer look at the tender and it looks as though the original coal load may have been cut away at some time, though they did a fairly neat job there are some tool marks on the inside of the rear coal sheet.

The wheels are very probably not the original ones. They look like Romfords, very popular scale replacement' s from the 50's and 60's in the UK.

If it is a pre-war loco it still runs very well for a 70 year old veteran. The motor in this is very definitely a Permanent magnet DC motor with a huge magnet filling up most of the cab and firebox.

Tom

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebu ild@...> wrote:
>
> Interesting: The mechanism appears to be Flyer. I have a 2-pane cab window engine I picked up on eBay, that had those same driver wheels too (Though a brass frame and a Varney motor inside).
>
> That engine came with a tender with nothing in raised letters on the back water tank deck (Though I have two more tenders that DO have raised letters!). The engine came with prewar cars - some lighted diecast Flyer Osgood-Bradley coaches, and some prewar Megow's and Comet cars.
>
> Very interesting. ..
>
>
> -Steve Neubaum
>
> --- On Mon, 3/8/10, Dale Smith <dfsmith26@. ..> wrote:
>
> From: Dale Smith <dfsmith26@. ..>
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Help identifying an early Hudson
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Date: Monday, March 8, 2010, 4:22 PM
>
> From looking at the photos, I don't think it is Flyer. The flyer tender
> casting had a high coal pile cast in. If it is Flyer, it would have to
> be an early 200 from 38-39, but those had a vertically mounted AC motor.
> The double window, as opposed to the quad window puts it in that date
> range if it is Flyer. Also the wheels should be Bakelite with brass rims
> for Gilbert. I also believe that the tender castings for Gilbert
> products had the name cast in the tender around the water hatch.
>
> Dale
>
> trainsnwrcs wrote:
> >
> >
> > I read the link.
> > I think it's an early Flyer.
> > They made 4-6-4's back at least as far as 1938.
> > Numbers like 112, 150, etc.
> >
> > The boiler looks Flyer.
> > Later ones, with the smaller motors, added a line on fireman's side
> > once they did away with the motor sticking out the side.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > > I have an early cast bodied Hudson I bought some time ago in very
> > poor condition, I was told it was one of the Graham Farish ones from
> > the early 50's, but having compared it to a couple on ebay recently
> > it's different.
> > >
> > > The most striking thing about it is it has a traverse mounted three
> > pole permanent magnet motor and spur drive to all wheels.
> > >
> > > I've some photos in a thread on another forum here
> > >
> > http://www.rmweb. co.uk/community/ index.php/ topic/9939- a-pennsylvanian- shortline/ page__st_ _100__gopid_ _97773&#entry977
> > <http://www.rmweb. co.uk/community/ index.php/ topic/9939- a-pennsylvanian- shortline/ page__st_ _100__gopid_ _97773&#entry977>
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13536 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/8/2010
Subject: Ulrich 52'6" composite gondola
I have had one of these for over 20 years in an box in pieces.

Two or so years ago, I started re-assembling and repairing this stuff, and found there were no ends in the box.

January of this year, in a big batch, I got another, also in pieces, but all of it was there.
Now I know what the ends look like.

Anybody have a spare set of ends or know where they can be found?
Thanks!

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13537 From: Mike Sloane Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Ulrich 52'6" composite gondola
If you can't find them, it seems to me that you could be able to cast a
pair of ends using the ones you have as masters.

Mike

trainsnwrcs wrote:
>
>
> I have had one of these for over 20 years in an box in pieces.
>
> Two or so years ago, I started re-assembling and repairing this stuff,
> and found there were no ends in the box.
>
> January of this year, in a big batch, I got another, also in pieces, but
> all of it was there.
> Now I know what the ends look like.
>
> Anybody have a spare set of ends or know where they can be found?
> Thanks!
>
> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13538 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Ulrich 52'6" composite gondola
Hi Dave,

Have you tried Steve Gill, current owner of Ulrich? www.railstop.com While he has so far only reintroduced the truck line and at one time, planned to re-introduced the dropp bottom gon, do not believe he planned to do so with the composite gon. Worth a try though, as if he did not aquire all the parts after they passed from Walthers, he might know the who and where. If you find out anyone does have a supply of them, let us know, as I think I need a pair of the same ends as well.

W Jay W.
Ps. If you have not already read his extensive on-line histories of the original Bowser and Mantua firms, plus some on Ulrich, a visit to Gill's website is highly recommended for Vintage HO fans as well.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
> I have had one of these for over 20 years in an box in pieces.
>
> Two or so years ago, I started re-assembling and repairing this stuff, and found there were no ends in the box.
>
> January of this year, in a big batch, I got another, also in pieces, but all of it was there.
> Now I know what the ends look like.
>
> Anybody have a spare set of ends or know where they can be found?
> Thanks!
>
> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13539 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Ulrich 52'6" composite gondola
Hi Dave, Here is the correct Ulrich address - in my previous posat, I just realized that I gave you Gill's history web address. The Ulrich pages have a contact email address to him. W Jay W.

http://www.ulrichmodels.com/#products

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> Have you tried Steve Gill, current owner of Ulrich? www.railstop.com While he has so far only reintroduced the truck line and at one time, planned to re-introduced the dropp bottom gon, do not believe he planned to do so with the composite gon. Worth a try though, as if he did not aquire all the parts after they passed from Walthers, he might know the who and where. If you find out anyone does have a supply of them, let us know, as I think I need a pair of the same ends as well.
>
> W Jay W.
> Ps. If you have not already read his extensive on-line histories of the original Bowser and Mantua firms, plus some on Ulrich, a visit to Gill's website is highly recommended for Vintage HO fans as well.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
> >
> > I have had one of these for over 20 years in an box in pieces.
> >
> > Two or so years ago, I started re-assembling and repairing this stuff, and found there were no ends in the box.
> >
> > January of this year, in a big batch, I got another, also in pieces, but all of it was there.
> > Now I know what the ends look like.
> >
> > Anybody have a spare set of ends or know where they can be found?
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13540 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Ulrich 52'6" composite gondola
They are thin stamped steel or brass, with the ribs pressed in, end beam part of the plate, offset to drop into the sides and become the end beam.
No casting on these.

I suppose they may at one time have been cast, but even the HOSeeker drawings show the thin stamped drop-in units.

I did e-mail Steve Gill and ask.

Dave


> If you can't find them, it seems to me that you could be able to cast a
> pair of ends using the ones you have as masters.
>
> Mike
>
> trainsnwrcs wrote:
> >
> >
> > I have had one of these for over 20 years in an box in pieces.
> >
> > Two or so years ago, I started re-assembling and repairing this stuff,
> > and found there were no ends in the box.
> >
> > January of this year, in a big batch, I got another, also in pieces, but
> > all of it was there.
> > Now I know what the ends look like.
> >
> > Anybody have a spare set of ends or know where they can be found?
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13541 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Friction Clutches, Fluid Drives and Planetary Transmissions
In quite recent times- c. 2004-, a shop in Australia produced some
very nice centrifugal clutches-cum-can motors designed for drop-in use
with Athearn Blue Box F units. I have several of these units of two
different types, have bench tested them, but have not yet installed
them.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento
Group: vintageHO Message: 13542 From: jim heckard Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP
All,
 
     I am seeking help from Mr.Lew English to verify or deny statements the seller tezz55 is making on Ebay concerning his so called  Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model  item  190378502168  The seller added more statements claiming others are backing him and that VARNEY did make this engine .
 
     I have to find out if anything this man states is true so I sent the below Email to Mr. Lew English of Bowser to ask what he might know since the seller claims Mr. English has one.
 
                                           Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 1:22 PM
Subject: PLEASE HELP

 
 
Dear Sir or Madam,
 
     I am trying to get in touch with Mr. Lew English, owner of Bowser, who was also a member of the H.O. Scale Collectors & History - Special Interest Group that was lead by Dave Spanagel , author of the Greenberg Guide to Varney Trains. I was a member for almost 20 years and am trying to draw on Mr. English's vast knowledge of HO.
 
        This message pertains to an item listed    #190378502168   Brass EFH Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 VARNEY 1936 Model being sold by tezz55 of Aratula   Australia. He even claims 50 were made and other people have said they have the exact same thing.
 
     Since this seller has stated, in an email response to a question posed by another member, that Lew English / Bowser ( I'm assuming Sr but might be Jr.) has the same exact engine ( Varney 1936 )and uses Mr. English to contact as a reference of proof of existence I would like to pose some very important questions.
 
     Do you have THIS engine and do you consider it to be Varney made in 1936. ?   Can you confirm that you told this seller that ?  Did you have any contact with this man about this engine ? Did he twist words to fit his needs ?
 
    This seller seems to make a number of statements about the validity of this engine being Varney made and in 1936. Many people still involved with Yahoo HO vintage train sites along with all kinds of catalogs, paperwork have never seen mention of this piece, including 20 years of "The Reporting Mark" (HOSC&H-SIG newsletter) but the seller is adamant it is Varney made and in 1936.
 
   Many people have tried to point out that the truck under the tender is a 4 wheel pre war Varney pilot truck stamped Varney and 1936 is the part number not the year but he claims definitely a Varney Engine. Everyone I am in contact with knows nothing about Varney making and / or selling this engine.
 
   You can be extremely helpful in settling this issue if you in fact have a 1936 VARNEY 2-8-8-8-4 Triplex and not just a brass Triplex.
 
                                               Sincerely,
                                               Jim Heckard
                                               199 Furnace Street
                                               Shenandoah, PA.
                                               570-462-0661
                                               jimheck@...
 
 
 
 
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13543 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: More Ulrich
Haven't heard back yet from Steve Gill, but this is one more part (or two) I am seeking.
I need an "A" end for an outside-braced boxcar, but it's not the braced end, rather the dreadnaught end like is shown on this ATSF car:
http://hoseeker.net/Ulrich/ulrickcatalog1959pg2.jpg
Plus one roof platform.

I need more, but this is a start.

Doors and guides would be quite helpful.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13544 From: al45390 Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Hi all,

For the heck of it, I asked the seller about the motors, volatage and running condition. Also suggested more, and good photos, exterior and interior. He answered promptly as follows:

"Thanks for your query.It has 3 motors,they all run very well,and on a friend's Layout last week,ran with 150 freight cars up a 4.5% gradient,after it was lightly oiled with Singer sewing machine oil and allowed to stand .
"It runs on 12 volts DC,like all HO locomotives.I wish I could illustrate with more photos ,but web camera does not really work too well as it is ,sorry to say mate."

Walt
Group: vintageHO Message: 13545 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
I once caught a fish that was sooo big.. It pulled the boat 50 yards before I was able to pull it up on deck... I was 6 at the time...
 
Sean


From: al45390 <bayerw2@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 4:50:14 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

Hi all,

For the heck of it, I asked the seller about the motors, volatage and running condition. Also suggested more, and good photos, exterior and interior. He answered promptly as follows:

"Thanks for your query.It has 3 motors,they all run very well,and on a friend's Layout last week,ran with 150 freight cars up a 4.5% gradient,after it was lightly oiled with Singer sewing machine oil and allowed to stand .
"It runs on 12 volts DC,like all HO locomotives. I wish I could illustrate with more photos ,but web camera does not really work too well as it is ,sorry to say mate."

Walt


Group: vintageHO Message: 13546 From: jim heckard Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP
All,
 
       Check below for the response from Bowser / Lee English. So much for the comment / Email response that English / Bowser possessed one and could back up sellers statement  who is selling the so called 2-8-8-8-4 Virginian VARNEY 1936 engine as you can see by the reply from Lee English / Bowser. Unless this chap down under has another Varney Company in mind he is full of it BIG TIME.
 
    Hope someone that is registered with Ebay could forward this message from Bowser to the seller.  ( I can't, not a member) Hopefully the person that the seller told to contact Lew English of  Bowser for confirmation he had one.  Wonder what the seller would say now.
 
                                                Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP

My Dad turns 92 this year. 
I could not tell you anything about this.
I doubt he talked to anyone about this since he does not do well on the phone.
Also he has been house bound for a couple of years and has not been involved in our business for several years.
 
So my Dad and I have no comments on this item.
 
 

Thank you
Lee english
Bowser Mfg
PO Box 322
Montoursville Pa  17754
570-368-2379
www.bowser-trains.com
Price List  & Order Info  http://bowser-trains.com/Prices/pricelists.htm
 

 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 1:22 PM
Subject: PLEASE HELP

 
 
Dear Sir or Madam,
 
     I am trying to get in touch with Mr. Lew English, owner of Bowser, who was also a member of the H.O. Scale Collectors & History - Special Interest Group that was lead by Dave Spanagel , author of the Greenberg Guide to Varney Trains. I was a member for almost 20 years and am trying to draw on Mr. English's vast knowledge of HO.
 
        This message pertains to an item listed    #190378502168   Brass EFH Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 VARNEY 1936 Model being sold by tezz55 of Aratula   Australia. He even claims 50 were made and other people have said they have the exact same thing.
 
     Since this seller has stated, in an email response to a question posed by another member, that Lew English / Bowser ( I'm assuming Sr but might be Jr.) has the same exact engine ( Varney 1936 )and uses Mr. English to contact as a reference of proof of existence I would like to pose some very important questions.
 
     Do you have THIS engine and do you consider it to be Varney made in 1936. ?   Can you confirm that you told this seller that ?  Did you have any contact with this man about this engine ? Did he twist words to fit his needs ?
 
    This seller seems to make a number of statements about the validity of this engine being Varney made and in 1936. Many people still involved with Yahoo HO vintage train sites along with all kinds of catalogs, paperwork have never seen mention of this piece, including 20 years of "The Reporting Mark" (HOSC&H-SIG newsletter) but the seller is adamant it is Varney made and in 1936.
 
   Many people have tried to point out that the truck under the tender is a 4 wheel pre war Varney pilot truck stamped Varney and 1936 is the part number not the year but he claims definitely a Varney Engine. Everyone I am in contact with knows nothing about Varney making and / or selling this engine.
 
   You can be extremely helpful in settling this issue if you in fact have a 1936 VARNEY 2-8-8-8-4 Triplex and not just a brass Triplex.
 
                                               Sincerely,
                                               Jim Heckard
                                               199 Furnace Street
                                               Shenandoah, PA.
                                               570-462-0661
                                               jimheck@...
 
 
 
 
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13547 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
12 VOLT MOTORS IN 1936???  Are you trying to say that is a fish tale, Sean?
Don Staton in VA
=====================================================

Sean Naylor wrote:
 
I once caught a fish that was sooo big.. It pulled the boat 50 yards before I was able to pull it up on deck... I was 6 at the time...
 
Sean


From: al45390 <bayerw2@gmail. com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 4:50:14 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

Hi all,

For the heck of it, I asked the seller about the motors, volatage and running condition. Also suggested more, and good photos, exterior and interior. He answered promptly as follows:

"Thanks for your query.It has 3 motors,they all run very well,and on a friend's Layout last week,ran with 150 freight cars up a 4.5% gradient,after it was lightly oiled with Singer sewing machine oil and allowed to stand .
"It runs on 12 volts DC,like all HO locomotives. I wish I could illustrate with more photos ,but web camera does not really work too well as it is ,sorry to say mate."

Walt


Group: vintageHO Message: 13548 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP
Jim, Not only does this guy have another Varney Company in mind, but he
must also have an altogether different Lee English and an altogether different
Bowser Company in mind -- all of them which never ventured out of Australia
(LOL). Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13549 From: Mike Bauers Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
I do believe we have a definite 'FAKE' ruling on this model !!!!

Could you even -find- 12 volt HO motors in 1936 ???

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 9, 2010, at 4:29 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

>
>
> 12 VOLT MOTORS IN 1936??? Are you trying to say that is a fish
> tale, Sean?
> Don Staton in VA
> =====================================================
>
> Sean Naylor wrote:
>>
>> I once caught a fish that was sooo big.. It pulled the boat 50
>> yards before I was able to pull it up on deck... I was 6 at the
>> time...
>>
>> Sean
>>
>> From: al45390 <bayerw2@...>
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 4:50:14 PM
>> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> For the heck of it, I asked the seller about the motors, volatage
>> and running condition. Also suggested more, and good photos,
>> exterior and interior. He answered promptly as follows:
>>
>> "Thanks for your query.It has 3 motors,they all run very well,and
>> on a friend's Layout last week,ran with 150 freight cars up a 4.5%
>> gradient,after it was lightly oiled with Singer sewing machine oil
>> and allowed to stand .
>> "It runs on 12 volts DC,like all HO locomotives. I wish I could
>> illustrate with more photos ,but web camera does not really work
>> too well as it is ,sorry to say mate."
>>
>> Walt
Group: vintageHO Message: 13550 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, endin
I sent the message below to the seller. Be interesting to see what he says.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery




----- Original Message -----
From: "eBay Member: don_dellmann" <member@...>
To: <don.dellmann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 7:26 PM
Subject: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending
on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model



-----------------------------------------------------------------
eBay sent this message to Donald Dellmann (don_dellmann).
Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay.
Learn more at http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/name-userid-emails.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
This member has a question for you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete the
transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy, may
be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs. Learn More
at http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html

Dear tezz55,

You are aware of course that Varney never produced this engine, Lew English
denies ever speaking with you, 12 V motors were not used before WW II, and
everything about this listing is fraudulent. I trust this listing will be
deleted without having to document this fraud with eBay.

-don_dellmann




Item name: Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190378502168&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:AU:1123
Item Id: 190378502168
End time: Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT
Buyer: don_dellmann
Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13551 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
The real shame is.. It would be great to actually see this engine in person.. instead we will be left with these crappy fuzzy photos.. a long fish tale..
 
Yeah.. I ws referring to the 12v motors as well as having 3 of them and being able to pull ~150 cars up a 4+% grade.. The whole thing sounded too good to be true...
 
Sean


From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 8:28:57 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model

 

I sent the message below to the seller. Be interesting to see what he says.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "eBay Member: don_dellmann" <member@ebay. com>
To: <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 7:26 PM
Subject: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending
on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
eBay sent this message to Donald Dellmann (don_dellmann) .
Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay.
Learn more at http://pages. ebay.com/ help/confidence/ name-userid- emails.html
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
This member has a question for you.
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete the
transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy, may
be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs. Learn More
at http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- non-ebay- sale.html

Dear tezz55,

You are aware of course that Varney never produced this engine, Lew English
denies ever speaking with you, 12 V motors were not used before WW II, and
everything about this listing is fraudulent. I trust this listing will be
deleted without having to document this fraud with eBay.

-don_dellmann

Item name: Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037850216 8&ssPageName= ADME:X:AAQ: AU:1123
Item Id: 190378502168
End time: Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT
Buyer: don_dellmann
Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.


Group: vintageHO Message: 13552 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
I may have missed some comments from you guys concerning this Tezz person, but did you see the details of his feedback as a seller on eBay? His photo there is of interest also.
 
In a message dated 3/9/2010 8:26:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:
I do believe we have a definite 'FAKE' ruling on this model !!!!

Could you even -find- 12 volt HO motors in 1936 ???

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Mar 9, 2010, at 4:29 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

>
>
> 12 VOLT MOTORS IN 1936???  Are you trying to say that is a fish 
> tale, Sean?
> Don Staton in VA
> =====================================================
>
> Sean Naylor wrote:
>>
>> I once caught a fish that was sooo big.. It pulled the boat 50 
>> yards before I was able to pull it up on deck... I was 6 at the 
>> time...
>>
>> Sean
>>
>> From: al45390 <bayerw2@...>
>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 4:50:14 PM
>> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> For the heck of it, I asked the seller about the motors, volatage 
>> and running condition. Also suggested more, and good photos, 
>> exterior and interior. He answered promptly as follows:
>>
>> "Thanks for your query.It has 3 motors,they all run very well,and 
>> on a friend's Layout last week,ran with 150 freight cars up a 4.5% 
>> gradient,after it was lightly oiled with Singer sewing machine oil 
>> and allowed to stand .
>> "It runs on 12 volts DC,like all HO locomotives. I wish I could 
>> illustrate with more photos ,but web camera does not really work 
>> too well as it is ,sorry to say mate."
>>
>> Walt


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Group: vintageHO Message: 13553 From: Walter Bayer Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Group: vintageHO Message: 13554 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/9/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Mike Bauers wrote:
>
>
> I do believe we have a definite 'FAKE' ruling on this model !!!!
>
> Could you even -find- 12 volt HO motors in 1936 ???
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi
>
Mike, this alone wouldnt make it a fake... a person not knowledgeable
could just check a 6V loco on 12 V , and not notice the difference ,
especially when the loco is stiff and current pickup is bad. And, motors
could have been swapped in the 70 years between...

However I am convinced this smart guy thinks he is about to sell a piece
he picked up at a garage sale for $30 for big money...

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13555 From: bob d Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
I have a question that keeps running through my head, nagging me. Do we, as collectors and members of this group, have an obligation to report this item? Should it sell to some unsuspecting buyer, it would be a travesty, at best. I would surely feel badly for the new owner knowing what has been posted here.

My meager knowledge would not bear the weight, nor get the attention, of eBay. One with a "mightier" sword needs to report the item. To do nothing would only serve a great injustice to the hobby, the perspective buyer, and the group.

Bob

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
>
> One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Brass-EHF-Virginian-2-8-8-8-4-Varney-1936-Model_W0QQitemZ190378502168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Toys_Hobbies_Model_Railways?hash=item2c53716818
>
> Frank Bongiovanni
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13556 From: Chris B Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
My 2 cents. Fwiw...I might say yes if the group name was somehow falsely attached to an endorsement of authenticity,

Knowledgeable members have done yeomans work already, debunking this offering.

And I do think urging group members to send emails to the seller or ebay is not a bad idea...

But beyond that?
IMHO, if it went that route for this obvious one,
Who draws the line, and where do they draw it
In a case that might not be so cut and dried in everyone's eyes.

Does the group always agree on provenance or value?
Aside from this special case, perhaps not unanimously.

And the category is vintage HO, not chips for pacemakers.

Seems like overkill to me, but others mileage may vary.

Chris B.
From: "bob d" <fishntrains@...>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:44:40 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

I have a question that keeps running through my head, nagging me. Do we, as collectors and members of this group, have an obligation to report this item? Should it sell to some unsuspecting buyer, it would be a travesty, at best. I would surely feel badly for the new owner knowing what has been posted here.

My meager knowledge would not bear the weight, nor get the attention, of eBay. One with a "mightier" sword needs to report the item. To do nothing would only serve a great injustice to the hobby, the perspective buyer, and the group.

Bob

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@ ...> wrote:
>
> One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
>
> http://cgi.ebay. com/Brass- EHF-Virginian- 2-8-8-8-4- Varney-1936- Model_W0QQitemZ1 90378502168QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZAU _Toys_Hobbies_ Model_Railways? hash=item2c53716 818
>
> Frank Bongiovanni
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13557 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Hi Frank B.,

Thanks for bringing this to all of our attention several days ago. It certainly has generated much discussion and investigation, whatever the outcome. I have saved some of the poor photos and creative sales description and the groups discussions in my files.

I will also keep an eye out for mention in the model magazines when custom builders were active, especially in the 1950's and early 1960's, seeing if there was any mention of the VGN Triplex as that is a likely origin - only my guess though. Knowing the custom builders, who totally scratch built or used a variety of existing parts, is a topic I have payed little attention to before, only knowing of Joe Dorazio(sp) in HO by name. Think Bill Lenior(sp) worked in O scale.

We might never see that interesting model again as he may want to unload it for a half of his AU$20K outside eBay, citing the fact that "hard times" precluded its sale to "the hundreds that demonstrated interest there" and he'd let the buyer have a "special deal, Mate."

Maybe that was his original plan to generate interest - virtually free world wide advertising on eBay, blurry photos all working to cultivate some mystery and a desire in prospective purchasers and likely offers.

Likely a colorful character that it would be fun to talk to over a pint of lager, but would bet even if he said he'd be buy'in, you'd likely find that round on your tab, and several others as well!

W. Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:
>
> One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Brass-EHF-Virginian-2-8-8-8-4-Varney-1936-Model_W0QQitemZ190378502168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Toys_Hobbies_Model_Railways?hash=item2c53716818
>
> Frank Bongiovanni
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13558 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Hi Bob D.,

My guess is that a few individuals have already acted or are in the process of so doing on several levels. This sort behavior collectively gives all collectors, whether in trains, old cars other antiques and even eBay a black eye. When complaints are filed, the fact that they are placed by several based on their own convictions eventually carries more weight with the eBay authorities as well as others, so would encourage more to act if that is their own feeling.

Complaints not only to eBay, but to Christies, Sothebies and even Bowser to let them know that their good names are being apparently mis-used, which none take kindly to.

Personally, and now thinking a few days about it, I believe this listing was done as a stunt to generate interest and then a quick-off eBay sale for a lesser, but equally outrageous amount.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bob d" <fishntrains@...> wrote:
>
> I have a question that keeps running through my head, nagging me. Do we, as collectors and members of this group, have an obligation to report this item? Should it sell to some unsuspecting buyer, it would be a travesty, at best. I would surely feel badly for the new owner knowing what has been posted here.
>
> My meager knowledge would not bear the weight, nor get the attention, of eBay. One with a "mightier" sword needs to report the item. To do nothing would only serve a great injustice to the hobby, the perspective buyer, and the group.
>
> Bob
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@> wrote:
> >
> > One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Brass-EHF-Virginian-2-8-8-8-4-Varney-1936-Model_W0QQitemZ190378502168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Toys_Hobbies_Model_Railways?hash=item2c53716818
> >
> > Frank Bongiovanni
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13559 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Hi Chris B.,

Agree that our members have done yeomans work analyzing this listing and performed a valuable service to the hobby. I've learned more about old Varney parts, too. Beyond that and absent a mis-representaion by the lister of our group's good name, any actions are up to and by our individual members, as individuals, and as each sees fit.

A G'day to ya, Mate!

W. Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> My 2 cents. Fwiw...I might say yes if the group name was somehow falsely attached to an endorsement of authenticity,
>
> Knowledgeable members have done yeomans work already, debunking this offering.
>
> And I do think urging group members to send emails to the seller or ebay is not a bad idea...
>
> But beyond that?
> IMHO, if it went that route for this obvious one,
> Who draws the line, and where do they draw it
> In a case that might not be so cut and dried in everyone's eyes.
>
> Does the group always agree on provenance or value?
> Aside from this special case, perhaps not unanimously.
>
> And the category is vintage HO, not chips for pacemakers.
>
> Seems like overkill to me, but others mileage may vary.
>
> Chris B.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "bob d" <fishntrains@...>
> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:44:40
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing
>
> I have a question that keeps running through my head, nagging me. Do we, as collectors and members of this group, have an obligation to report this item? Should it sell to some unsuspecting buyer, it would be a travesty, at best. I would surely feel badly for the new owner knowing what has been posted here.
>
> My meager knowledge would not bear the weight, nor get the attention, of eBay. One with a "mightier" sword needs to report the item. To do nothing would only serve a great injustice to the hobby, the perspective buyer, and the group.
>
> Bob
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@> wrote:
> >
> > One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Brass-EHF-Virginian-2-8-8-8-4-Varney-1936-Model_W0QQitemZ190378502168QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Toys_Hobbies_Model_Railways?hash=item2c53716818
> >
> > Frank Bongiovanni
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13560 From: Chris B Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Back at ya,

What should probably also be pointed out, is that similar outrage would hardly be expected if the identical bogus description and engine had been attached to a low low starting bid, say $25?

At that price point, few would care if the desc said G Varney himself had once owned the trailing truck...

And the actual approx mkt value of the parts without a fake rarity premium might have been established, perhaps by members...

You don't always hear a call to inform a seller that the desc is wrong and the tem is very rare and the starting bid too low!

The free mkt often solves that mismatch...with bids from knowledgeable collectors driving the price closer to the "mkt value"

Chris B
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:35:45 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

Hi Chris B.,

Agree that our members have done yeomans work analyzing this listing and performed a valuable service to the hobby. I've learned more about old Varney parts, too. Beyond that and absent a mis-representaion by the lister of our group's good name, any actions are up to and by our individual members, as individuals, and as each sees fit.

A G'day to ya, Mate!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> My 2 cents. Fwiw...I might say yes if the group name was somehow falsely attached to an endorsement of authenticity,
>
> Knowledgeable members have done yeomans work already, debunking this offering.
>
> And I do think urging group members to send emails to the seller or ebay is not a bad idea...
>
> But beyond that?
> IMHO, if it went that route for this obvious one,
> Who draws the line, and where do they draw it
> In a case that might not be so cut and dried in everyone's eyes.
>
> Does the group always agree on provenance or value?
> Aside from this special case, perhaps not unanimously.
>
> And the category is vintage HO, not chips for pacemakers.
>
> Seems like overkill to me, but others mileage may vary.
>
> Chris B.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "bob d" <fishntrains@ ...>
> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 12:44:40
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing
>
> I have a question that keeps running through my head, nagging me. Do we, as collectors and members of this group, have an obligation to report this item? Should it sell to some unsuspecting buyer, it would be a travesty, at best. I would surely feel badly for the new owner knowing what has been posted here.
>
> My meager knowledge would not bear the weight, nor get the attention, of eBay. One with a "mightier" sword needs to report the item. To do nothing would only serve a great injustice to the hobby, the perspective buyer, and the group.
>
> Bob
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@ > wrote:
> >
> > One thing I've tried to know is how much I don't know. However, does this resonate badly with anyone else? I'd like to hear from the real Varney experts out there. Thanks.
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay. com/Brass- EHF-Virginian- 2-8-8-8-4- Varney-1936- Model_W0QQitemZ1 90378502168QQcmd ZViewItemQQptZAU _Toys_Hobbies_ Model_Railways? hash=item2c53716 818
> >
> > Frank Bongiovanni
> >
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13561 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Intersting topic to follow for sure,
but really,
How rare would any HO item have to be before someone would drop that kind of money on it, collector or not, and surely not someone that not up on trains enough to know any of this,
But still it doesn't make it right what this seller is trying to snow over everyone.

Just for the record,
I pulled an engines with 23 cars trailing up a I forget what grade it would have been (big ole hill just for testing pulling power of diff engines and locos) I want to say 2' to the peek in around 3' in length with a old Riv 2-8-8-2 and I thought it was going to kill that loco doing it.....

Larry L Doub
Davenport Iowa

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
>
> The real shame is.. It would be great to actually see this engine in person.. instead we will be left with these crappy fuzzy photos.. a long fish tale..
>
> Yeah.. I ws referring to the 12v motors as well as having 3 of them and being able to pull ~150 cars up a 4+% grade.. The whole thing sounded too good to be true...
>
> Sean
Group: vintageHO Message: 13562 From: John Hagen Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing

Chris,

 

In fact I often get involved when I find descriptions of items are way off and/or misleading. Generally I send the lister an email through ebay and see where that goes. If that does not work and there is a forum (such as this where there are knowledgeable members) I will began or contribute to a discussion. The cost of the item is not my issue except when, as in this case, it is outrageous. However, outrageous pricing is not something I comment on if the listing is otherwise accurate. What someone may want to spend is up to them.

 

Often times I will make comments to sellers that will actually improve their chances of getting a higher price. It is the accuracy of the description that matters to me.

 

John Hagen

 

From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris B
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 08:49
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

 

Back at ya,

What should probably also be pointed out, is that similar outrage would hardly be expected if the identical bogus description and engine had been attached to a low low starting bid, say $25?

At that price point, few would care if the desc said G Varney himself had once owned the trailing truck...

And the actual approx mkt value of the parts without a fake rarity premium might have been established, perhaps by members...

You don't always hear a call to inform a seller that the desc is wrong and the tem is very rare and the starting bid too low!

The free mkt often solves that mismatch...with bids from knowledgeable collectors driving the price closer to the "mkt value"

Chris B

Group: vintageHO Message: 13563 From: Chris B Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
John, I've done the same, and seen it from others, probably including yours.

Still wouldn't say I see it often,

And I am no saint, I admit to having bid quietly without doing it, against other quiet bidders, when the item is poorly described and is one I've been seeking for years.

That's where the free mkt does some good for the seller without a corrected desc,

since in those few instances, (3 or 4, no more)
the quiet bidders have always still driven the final price up to the approx mkt value.

Its always less painful to correct a desc on an item not coveted, though I did do that very thing once.
Only once, but it was the right thing, and when it sold for way more than even I expected, I knew it hadn't made any difference anyway, my pockets would never have been deep enough, bad or good desc...

Chris B
From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:27:17 -0600
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

Chris,

 

In fact I often get involved when I find descriptions of items are way off and/or misleading. Generally I send the lister an email through ebay and see where that goes. If that does not work and there is a forum (such as this where there are knowledgeable members) I will began or contribute to a discussion. The cost of the item is not my issue except when, as in this case, it is outrageous. However, outrageous pricing is not something I comment on if the listing is otherwise accurate. What someone may want to spend is up to them.

 

Often times I will make comments to sellers that will actually improve their chances of getting a higher price. It is the accuracy of the description that matters to me.

 

John Hagen

 

From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Chris B
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 08:49
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing

 

 

Back at ya,

What should probably also be pointed out, is that similar outrage would hardly be expected if the identical bogus description and engine had been attached to a low low starting bid, say $25?

At that price point, few would care if the desc said G Varney himself had once owned the trailing truck...

And the actual approx mkt value of the parts without a fake rarity premium might have been established, perhaps by members...

You don't always hear a call to inform a seller that the desc is wrong and the tem is very rare and the starting bid too low!

The free mkt often solves that mismatch...with bids from knowledgeable collectors driving the price closer to the "mkt value"

Chris B

Group: vintageHO Message: 13564 From: Nelson B Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
After looking at the rest of his listings, I wonder. He doesn't have a low starting bid on anything he's selling. Nothing in the 20 grand range, but still overvalued enough that everything on his list has zero bids. It will be interesting to see if he sells anything, let alone this wondrous and rare Triplex.

When you have a 50% failure rate as a seller, and one of the negative comments says "description inaccurate, useless in Australia, no offer to refund, replies ceased," a buyer would need their head examined to take place a bid with this guy.

Nelson


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

> Personally, and now thinking a few days about it, I believe this listing was done as a stunt to generate interest and then a quick-off eBay sale for a lesser, but equally outrageous amount.
>
> W. Jay W.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13565 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Extending to this guy the benefit of the doubt that he possibly doesn't
know that much about vintage H0, while we might not be able to declare this a
fake if he were just to unequivocally describe these three motors as being 12
volt by merely putting the model on a test track and applying sufficient
power to make it run -- or maybe just by giving them a quick look-over and
guessing at their voltage without taking a better study of them -- this would
sure show both his lack of decency and honesty towards a prospective buyer
especially in the event they were to give him top dollar, and his prime
objective in just wanting to dump this on someone for as much as he can get with
total disregard for the buyer and what the buyer might be getting for his
money.

If the item can't be seen as a fraud in itself when keeping in mind his
possible inaccurate description of the motors because of his lack of knowledge,
his transaction should certainly be. For $2000 (let alone @20,000) -- or
even $200 -- but especially for $20,000, I would hope he'd take more care in
actually finding out and describing something that was asked about on the
model, with as much accuracy as he could instead of just applying test leads
to it, then stating it was 12 volt because of the powerpack of the same
voltage that he might have used. Such a careless attitude, if he didn't
otherwise have the knowledge to know, would show his fraudulent intent. Ray F.W.
</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13566 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Strange eBay listing
In all fairness, I thought that my question would generate some comment; sure didn't know it would generate this much interest, including carryover to one of the brass lists that I'm on.
And, I really was prepared to have somebody tell me that "of course Varney did this and it's documented in .......".

In short (my friends can stop laughing now):

1)I will be very interested in seeing any response from eBay.

2)Let me put on my working hat (lawyer; sorry for those of you who hate us). This may be out and out fraud. Proving it would be extremely difficult, as there's always the possibility that the seller honestly thinks this is what he has, thinks this is what it's worth, etc. I can only hope that before anyone drops this kind of money on a toy choo choo that they do some "due diligence". Again, in all fairness, I have a piece of Lionel Standard Gauge that was probably worth about $4K twenty years ago, and is now worth maybe half that.

Sidebar: for my local NMRA group I did an "Estate Planning for Model Railroaders" clinic after we lost two members this year. True to form, and the Brass Guys have gone on at length about this, we had the oft repeated scenario where a guy with, say $20K worth of stuff dies, he's kept the value from his widow, and she takes the $2K that one of his "friends" offers. This can apply to Vintage stuff, also, so if there's no objection I'll post the handout to the files here.

3)Someone asked: if memory serves a few years ago, before the brass market tanked, one of the major auction houses sent out postcards about an upcoming auction. The centerpiece was a (hope I get this right)PFM KCS 2-10-4; the expected selling price was in the ballpark of $8K. I believe they got $27K or $37K for it.

4)I'm slightly a Vintage Guy, but mostly a Brass Guy and Feeble Layout Builder. One of the joys of retirement is that I'm on over 30 railroad and model railroad lists. This list is in the top three in courtesy and helpfulness.[Yes, I remember how you guys helped me cobble together a clinic on Gordon Varney a few years ago]. Good work, gentlemen.

Frank Bongiovanni
Group: vintageHO Message: 13567 From: Russ Shiel Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: mystery cars for ID
H'lo All...am resisting the urge to do a quick flit to Qld, camera in hand, try and get some decent pics of the 'Virginian triplex'...it's 2000 km...I wonder if Tezz would be amenable?? Bit hard to justify to the missus, methinks....but would help resolve some of the flurry of questions...
 
However!...as a distraction, I seek the collective help of the group once more...I am not a pass car buff, but am gradually accumulating a few name trains...Empire Builder and North Coast Ltd in particular.
 
Six 82' GN cars arrived this week...$13 apiece, big spender, me!...they have been long neglected, but can be brought back. Sides appear to be brass, floor, underbody appliances and roof wood, ends ?tin, with tin striker plates separated from the car ends by what might have been foam, but is now solid. Trucks are now CV's, but likely the ?kits didn't come with them. Interesting coupler setup...on a floating metal plate attached at the bolster...swivels to allow tighter curves than these long cars would otherwise manage. Some relevant pics are attached of the obs car and ?diner. Any clues to maker and approximate vintage would be appreciated!
Chrs, Russ

 

 
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13568 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: mystery cars for ID [5 Attachments]
Look like American Beautys to me.

I have a five car CNW American Beauty set, as well as a set of Union Pacific cars that were re-lettered for the Milwaukee (To recreate their 'yellowbird' cars), and those Milwaukee cars are used in the same train as Strombecker 'City of San Francisco' coaches, to recreate the connecting service between Chicago and Omaha).

Those coupler tongues, I have usually seen with Mantua Loop couplers. Instructions say to use freight car loops with these pivoting tongues.

Nice cars.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Wed, 3/10/10, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:

From: Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] mystery cars for ID [5 Attachments]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 3:58 PM

 

H'lo All...am resisting the urge to do a quick flit to Qld, camera in hand, try and get some decent pics of the 'Virginian triplex'...it' s 2000 km...I wonder if Tezz would be amenable?? Bit hard to justify to the missus, methinks.... but would help resolve some of the flurry of questions...
 
However!...as a distraction, I seek the collective help of the group once more...I am not a pass car buff, but am gradually accumulating a few name trains...Empire Builder and North Coast Ltd in particular.
 
Six 82' GN cars arrived this week...$13 apiece, big spender, me!...they have been long neglected, but can be brought back. Sides appear to be brass, floor, underbody appliances and roof wood, ends ?tin, with tin striker plates separated from the car ends by what might have been foam, but is now solid. Trucks are now CV's, but likely the ?kits didn't come with them. Interesting coupler setup...on a floating metal plate attached at the bolster...swivels to allow tighter curves than these long cars would otherwise manage. Some relevant pics are attached of the obs car and ?diner. Any clues to maker and approximate vintage would be appreciated!
Chrs, Russ

 

 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13569 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: mystery cars for ID
These are American Beauty cars. The coupler hangers were American Beauty's own innovation. There should have been spring wires from just behind the coupler boxes, through the slots of the slot screws that attached the hanger arms to the floor, and ending in 90 degree bends and inserted into the floor just in front of the body bolster. The wires were intended to keep the couplers centered. I always found the Am Beauty wire too stiff, and substituted nickel silver spring wire.

Am Beauty did sell a truck, in kit form, that was, I believe, the predecessor of the built-up CV truck. Their name would be cast into the  truck bolsters in about the same place that CV cast its name on its trucks.

--
Regards,
Walter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13570 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Thank you Frank, about the estate planning stuff.  I would be interested in seeing what info you post.  I have been talking to my wife about this very thing in the last couple of weeks.  You are right about "friends" .  I would be interested in how to go about valuing something, because Fleabay is not an accurate source, although often quoted.  Have quite a few vintage pieces but probably not as many as the majority of the group has.  Most of my stuff the grandchildren will inherit but I would still be interested if you would be so kind to post.  
 
-- On Wed, 3/10/10, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...> wrote:

From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 2:13 PM

 
In all fairness, I thought that my question would generate some comment; sure didn't know it would generate this much interest, including carryover to one of the brass lists that I'm on.
And, I really was prepared to have somebody tell me that "of course Varney did this and it's documented in .......".

In short (my friends can stop laughing now):

1)I will be very interested in seeing any response from eBay.

2)Let me put on my working hat (lawyer; sorry for those of you who hate us). This may be out and out fraud. Proving it would be extremely difficult, as there's always the possibility that the seller honestly thinks this is what he has, thinks this is what it's worth, etc. I can only hope that before anyone drops this kind of money on a toy choo choo that they do some "due diligence". Again, in all fairness, I have a piece of Lionel Standard Gauge that was probably worth about $4K twenty years ago, and is now worth maybe half that.

Sidebar: for my local NMRA group I did an "Estate Planning for Model Railroaders" clinic after we lost two members this year. True to form, and the Brass Guys have gone on at length about this, we had the oft repeated scenario where a guy with, say $20K worth of stuff dies, he's kept the value from his widow, and she takes the $2K that one of his "friends" offers. This can apply to Vintage stuff, also, so if there's no objection I'll post the handout to the files here.

3)Someone asked: if memory serves a few years ago, before the brass market tanked, one of the major auction houses sent out postcards about an upcoming auction. The centerpiece was a (hope I get this right)PFM KCS 2-10-4; the expected selling price was in the ballpark of $8K. I believe they got $27K or $37K for it.

4)I'm slightly a Vintage Guy, but mostly a Brass Guy and Feeble Layout Builder. One of the joys of retirement is that I'm on over 30 railroad and model railroad lists. This list is in the top three in courtesy and helpfulness. [Yes, I remember how you guys helped me cobble together a clinic on Gordon Varney a few years ago]. Good work, gentlemen.

Frank Bongiovanni


Group: vintageHO Message: 13571 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, endin
I posted yesterday what I wrote the seller.

Here is his response below as "original message"

I HAVE filed a fraudulent listing report with eBay, I'd suggest anyone else
who can do so also. The gist of my complaint to eBay is that the seller is
trying to sell it as something that never existed.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "eBay Member: tezz55" <s06-m9grkqokir@...>
To: <don.dellmann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936
Model




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-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Seller has responded to your question about this item
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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Dear don_dellmann,

Hi
for a starter,i never spoke with him,he wrote after I wrote him,see a
copy of his mail back to me?Secondly,look at the Erie 2 8 8 8 2 locos
Varney made a lot of? In 1936,I might add? so there ya go hmm?
Tezz


-tezz55

=================================================================
Respond
http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?M2MContact&item=190378502168&requested=tezz55&qid=758779263&redirect=0
=================================================================
Group: vintageHO Message: 13572 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
I didn't look at his feedback but I did see some what I thought were rather
ridiculous prices on some of the items he was trying to sell.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: <luvprr@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing


>I may have missed some comments from you guys concerning this Tezz person,
> but did you see the details of his feedback as a seller on eBay? His photo
> there is of interest also.
>
>
> In a message dated 3/9/2010 8:26:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> mwbauers55@... writes:
>
> I do believe we have a definite 'FAKE' ruling on this model !!!!
>
> Could you even -find- 12 volt HO motors in 1936 ???
>
> Best to ya,
> Mike Bauers
> Milwaukee, Wi
>
> On Mar 9, 2010, at 4:29 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 12 VOLT MOTORS IN 1936??? Are you trying to say that is a fish
>> tale, Sean?
>> Don Staton in VA
>> =====================================================
>>
>> Sean Naylor wrote:
>>>
>>> I once caught a fish that was sooo big.. It pulled the boat 50
>>> yards before I was able to pull it up on deck... I was 6 at the
>>> time...
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> From: al45390 <bayerw2@...>
>>> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
>>> Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 4:50:14 PM
>>> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Strange eBay listing
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> For the heck of it, I asked the seller about the motors, volatage
>>> and running condition. Also suggested more, and good photos,
>>> exterior and interior. He answered promptly as follows:
>>>
>>> "Thanks for your query.It has 3 motors,they all run very well,and
>>> on a friend's Layout last week,ran with 150 freight cars up a 4.5%
>>> gradient,after it was lightly oiled with Singer sewing machine oil
>>> and allowed to stand .
>>> "It runs on 12 volts DC,like all HO locomotives. I wish I could
>>> illustrate with more photos ,but web camera does not really work
>>> too well as it is ,sorry to say mate."
>>>
>>> Walt
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13573 From: jim heckard Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Fake ?????
All,
 
    A long shot maybe but read the Email I just sent to Dave Spanagel author of the Greenberg guide to Varney trains.
 
                                                       Jim h
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:45 PM
Subject: Fake ?????

Hi Dave,
 
       Hope all is well. Hope you remember me from the HOSC&H-SIG. I know your are retired from HO trains but I think you might be interested in something taking place that a seller is claiming as a Varney engine made in 1936
 
   Go to Ebay item 190378502168   Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 model being sold by Tezz55 of Aratula , Australia. Don't get shocked over the asking price which is of course ridiculous but read the description / claims this man is making.
 
    Many people in the ho vintage Yahoo train site have tried to explain there is no such Varney made engine let alone made in 1936 but this guy defies reasoning with. He claims many know that Varney produced 50 2-8-8-8-2 Erie Triplex engines also (in 1936) and that he knows people who have them and includes the English / Bowser family as telling him they have one in their collection. However in an email ( and response )  to Lee English of Bowser he denies neither his 92 year old father or him had contact with this person and know anything about this engine.
 
   The seller starts by saying he contacted 2 major auction houses  Christies and Sotherby's ( forgot how to spell this one) .They supposedly told the seller they know of the engine(s) and put a value of $18,000 dollars because of the rarity.
 
   The seller then said go to Google and it tells you Varney made Triplex engines.  Although the words Varney and Triplex appear in some of the sites it doesn't put the names together anywhere.
 
  A  person you might remember, Ray Wetzel, tried to point out that the seller was using the word Varney and the part number 1936 as proof. The engine has what appears is a 4 wheel Varney pre war pilot truck under the tender and the seller said this is proof of Varney made in 1936
 
  Seller mentions running the engine ( 3 motors ) that he describes as 12 volt . Now remember he claims engine made in 1936.
 
  Seller sent bad pictures but says weather conditions and poor camera as reason can't show more and better pictures. I could go on and on about many telling seller no such Varney engine and not in any year including 1936. Seller just responds we all know Varney made this engine before his line which you book details.
 
   I don't care if the guy sells the engine or not. I don't care if he gets a penny or $18,000. I don't care if someone believes the claims seller is making and by some odd chance buys the engine. I'm only concerned that I believe as do many others, he is not being up front. Fraudulent,bogus,hoax or whatever .
 
    While the engine he is selling looks pretty nice and is a 2-8-8-8-4 Virginian style Triplex  plus the 50 2-8-8-8-2 Erie Triplexes he claims are out there and owned by others it is definitely not Varney and made in 1936.
 
     I could go on with more but hope you can read what the seller states in his description and comment from your vast knowledge.
 
Thank You for your time and hope you can look at the item and reply.
 
                                                                  Jim Heckard
                                                                  jimeck@...
 
 
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13574 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Re: Fake ?????
I've already reported the auction as fraudulent to eBay, hopefully others
will do the same.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:51 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Fake ?????


All,

A long shot maybe but read the Email I just sent to Dave Spanagel author
of the Greenberg guide to Varney trains.

Jim h
----- Original Message -----
From: jim heckard
To: Janetdavs@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:45 PM
Subject: Fake ?????


Hi Dave,

Hope all is well. Hope you remember me from the HOSC&H-SIG. I know
your are retired from HO trains but I think you might be interested in
something taking place that a seller is claiming as a Varney engine made in
1936

Go to Ebay item 190378502168 Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney
1936 model being sold by Tezz55 of Aratula , Australia. Don't get shocked
over the asking price which is of course ridiculous but read the description
/ claims this man is making.

Many people in the ho vintage Yahoo train site have tried to explain
there is no such Varney made engine let alone made in 1936 but this guy
defies reasoning with. He claims many know that Varney produced 50 2-8-8-8-2
Erie Triplex engines also (in 1936) and that he knows people who have them
and includes the English / Bowser family as telling him they have one in
their collection. However in an email ( and response ) to Lee English of
Bowser he denies neither his 92 year old father or him had contact with this
person and know anything about this engine.

The seller starts by saying he contacted 2 major auction houses
Christies and Sotherby's ( forgot how to spell this one) .They supposedly
told the seller they know of the engine(s) and put a value of $18,000
dollars because of the rarity.

The seller then said go to Google and it tells you Varney made Triplex
engines. Although the words Varney and Triplex appear in some of the sites
it doesn't put the names together anywhere.

A person you might remember, Ray Wetzel, tried to point out that the
seller was using the word Varney and the part number 1936 as proof. The
engine has what appears is a 4 wheel Varney pre war pilot truck under the
tender and the seller said this is proof of Varney made in 1936

Seller mentions running the engine ( 3 motors ) that he describes as 12
volt . Now remember he claims engine made in 1936.

Seller sent bad pictures but says weather conditions and poor camera as
reason can't show more and better pictures. I could go on and on about many
telling seller no such Varney engine and not in any year including 1936.
Seller just responds we all know Varney made this engine before his line
which you book details.

I don't care if the guy sells the engine or not. I don't care if he
gets a penny or $18,000. I don't care if someone believes the claims seller
is making and by some odd chance buys the engine. I'm only concerned that I
believe as do many others, he is not being up front. Fraudulent,bogus,hoax
or whatever .

While the engine he is selling looks pretty nice and is a 2-8-8-8-4
Virginian style Triplex plus the 50 2-8-8-8-2 Erie Triplexes he claims are
out there and owned by others it is definitely not Varney and made in 1936.

I could go on with more but hope you can read what the seller states
in his description and comment from your vast knowledge.

Thank You for your time and hope you can look at the item and reply.

Jim
Heckard
jimeck@...
Group: vintageHO Message: 13575 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, endin
Got a further response from the seller of the "triplex".

This guy needs to be taken down a peg.

As I said before, I have reported it to eBay, hopefully others will do the
same.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


Don


----- Original Message -----
From: "eBay Member: tezz55" <s06-m9grkqokir@...>
To: <don.dellmann@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936
Model




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Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay.
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-----------------------------------------------------------------
Seller has responded to your question about this item
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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Dear don_dellmann,

Hi there
Was in a rush to go out yesterday,so did not complete the reply
you needed from me,..,ok,Mantua for one,was making locos with 12 v running
motors way back in 1925,..,Hornby-Dublo from the UK was making them around
the same time.,.,Rytime-Robilt was making trains here long b4 WW II,and
guess what they ran on too? Well damn me,they all ran on 12 V DC!!
Now see
what happens when u open your trap,and make a claim that does not hold up
under scrutiny mm?
And the collectors that have written to me ,telling me
they want mine to add to theirs,must all have it wrong huh? The fact theirs
are also made by Varney,in 1936,must be a figment of their imagination huh?
So,you cretin/moron/intellectually challenged person (pick one u wish that
suits you) perhaps u will not go off half cocked with a person that knows
more than you do about a subject?
Have a good one mate!
Tezz
BTW
It ran
on 12 v DC last week too!

-tezz55

=================================================================
Respond
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=================================================================







Item name: Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190378502168&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:AU:1123
Item Id: 190378502168
End time: Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT
Seller: tezz55
Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Here are more items from this seller
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann 12 car UP Yellow set
Item URL:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190377735200
0 Bids AU $1,800.00
Shipping: +AU $45.00

Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann Aluminum Baggage car sliding
doors
Item URL:
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0 Bids AU $200.00
Shipping: +AU $40.00

Item title: Fleischmann 8 car set W Germany 1950's VHF rare
Item URL:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190377728476
0 Bids AU $900.00
Shipping: +AU $65.80

Item title: Brass PCM HO Turbine Propane auxiliary fuel car
Item URL:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190377984244
0 Bids AU $399.95
Shipping: View Item to Calculate

Item title: Rivarossi NIB NR 4 8 4 FEF-3 UP
Item URL:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190377753572
0 Bids AU $600.00
Shipping: +AU $45.00





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Group: vintageHO Message: 13576 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/10/2010
Subject: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, endin
I just posted his second more caustic response to my inquiry.

Below is what I replied to him tonight.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936
Model


> Fact: You have told other people to Google Varney triplex. They and I
> have done so. NOWHERE are the two words used in the same sentence
> regarding the same model.
>
> Fact. "1936" is the part number of the locomotive lead truck that was
> used as a tender truck on that model.
>
> Fact: Varney did not offer a boiler suitable for an articulated
> locomotive until 1938.
>
> Fact: I personally have corresponded with the English's at Bowser, they
> deny having any contact with you.
>
> Fact: I have also been in contact with many knowledgeable Varney
> collectors, including contributors to the Greenburg guide to Varney
> trains, who have also been expanding their inquiries to other even more
> knowledgeable collectors, including actual Varney employees of that era.
> NONE have any knowledge whatsoever of that locomotive.
>
> Fact: Varney did not manufacture 12VDC motors prior to 1946.
>
> Fact: To numerous inquiries to you by other people which I been
> privileged to see, nowhere do you offer ANY concrete evidence as to the
> prominence of this model. EVERY response you have made to other people in
> our group has been nothing but improvable statements which you fail to
> back up with any evidence which can be checked by any outside source other
> than yourself.
>
> The model may very well be that old, and it may very well have included
> some Varney parts, but to state that it is a Varney made in 1936 on the
> basis of the part number on one small part of the model is totally bogus.
> We were willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say you may just
> not know what you have, but your responses to numerous questions by
> numerous people cannot help but make us feel otherwise.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "eBay Member: tezz55" <s06-m9grkqokir@...>
> To: <don.dellmann@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:49 AM
> Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
> ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney
> 1936 Model
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> eBay sent this message to Donald Dellmann (don_dellmann).
> Your registered name is included to show this message originated from
> eBay.
> Learn more at
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/name-userid-emails.html
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Seller has responded to your question about this item
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete
> the
> transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy,
> may
> be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs.
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html.
>
>
> Dear don_dellmann,
>
> Hi there
> Was in a rush to go out yesterday,so did not complete the reply
> you needed from me,..,ok,Mantua for one,was making locos with 12 v running
> motors way back in 1925,..,Hornby-Dublo from the UK was making them around
> the same time.,.,Rytime-Robilt was making trains here long b4 WW II,and
> guess what they ran on too? Well damn me,they all ran on 12 V DC!!
> Now see
> what happens when u open your trap,and make a claim that does not hold up
> under scrutiny mm?
> And the collectors that have written to me ,telling me
> they want mine to add to theirs,must all have it wrong huh? The fact
> theirs
> are also made by Varney,in 1936,must be a figment of their imagination
> huh?
> So,you cretin/moron/intellectually challenged person (pick one u wish that
> suits you) perhaps u will not go off half cocked with a person that knows
> more than you do about a subject?
> Have a good one mate!
> Tezz
> BTW
> It ran
> on 12 v DC last week too!
>
> -tezz55
>
> =================================================================
> Respond
> http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?M2MContact&item=190378502168&requested=tezz55&qid=759091939&redirect=0
> =================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Item name: Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190378502168&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:AU:1123
> Item Id: 190378502168
> End time: Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT
> Seller: tezz55
> Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Here are more items from this seller
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann 12 car UP Yellow set
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190377735200
> 0 Bids AU $1,800.00
> Shipping: +AU $45.00
>
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann Aluminum Baggage car sliding
> doors
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190378096974
> 0 Bids AU $200.00
> Shipping: +AU $40.00
>
> Item title: Fleischmann 8 car set W Germany 1950's VHF rare
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190377728476
> 0 Bids AU $900.00
> Shipping: +AU $65.80
>
> Item title: Brass PCM HO Turbine Propane auxiliary fuel car
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190377984244
> 0 Bids AU $399.95
> Shipping: View Item to Calculate
>
> Item title: Rivarossi NIB NR 4 8 4 FEF-3 UP
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190377753572
> 0 Bids AU $600.00
> Shipping: +AU $45.00
>
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Marketplace Safety Tip
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Keep your money safe http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/payment.html - never
> pay for items with cash or instant money transfer services, such as
> Western
> Union or MoneyGram. In the past some sellers have exploited these payment
> methods in order to defraud buyers, so eBay has banned them from the site.
>
> Received a Second Chance Offer email? Double check that it's genuine
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/personal-offer.html: Second Chance Offer
> emails come directly from eBay and are shown in your My Messages.
>
> Trade safely. Beware of anyone who contacts you about buying or selling
> outside of eBay
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html. When you
> trade outside of eBay, you're not able to leave feedback or take advantage
> of protection programs and case resolution tools available on eBay. Report
> http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ContactUs&wftype=3002 an
> inappropriate email.
>
> eBay helps guard your privacy and online safety when you use our messaging
> tools. If you and the member you're contacting haven't bought or sold from
> each other recently, our tools may make both of your email addresses
> anonymous.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn how you can protect yourself from spoof (fake) emails at:
> http://pages.ebay.com/education/spooftutorial/index.html
>
> Another eBay member sent this email to don.dellmann@... through
> the
> eBay platform. eBay takes no liability for the sending of this email or
> its
> content
>
> Visit our Privacy Policy at
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/privacy-policy.html and User Agreement
> at http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html if you have any
> questions.
>
> You can report this message at
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-ov.html as unsolicited
> (spam/spoof) email.
> Copyright © 2010 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved.
> Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective
> owners.
> eBay and the eBay logo are trademarks of eBay Inc.
> eBay Inc. is located at 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125.
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13577 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Don, nicely done.  Looks like you made him blink, despite his very rude response.   The listing now offers a starting bid of $15,000 AU. 



From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 12:51:00 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model

 

I just posted his second more caustic response to my inquiry.

Below is what I replied to him tonight.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936
Model

> Fact: You have told other people to Google Varney triplex. They and I
> have done so. NOWHERE are the two words used in the same sentence
> regarding the same model.
>
> Fact. "1936" is the part number of the locomotive lead truck that was
> used as a tender truck on that model.
>
> Fact: Varney did not offer a boiler suitable for an articulated
> locomotive until 1938.
>
> Fact: I personally have corresponded with the English's at Bowser, they
> deny having any contact with you.
>
> Fact: I have also been in contact with many knowledgeable Varney
> collectors, including contributors to the Greenburg guide to Varney
> trains, who have also been expanding their inquiries to other even more
> knowledgeable collectors, including actual Varney employees of that era.
> NONE have any knowledge whatsoever of that locomotive.
>
> Fact: Varney did not manufacture 12VDC motors prior to 1946.
>
> Fact: To numerous inquiries to you by other people which I been
> privileged to see, nowhere do you offer ANY concrete evidence as to the
> prominence of this model. EVERY response you have made to other people in
> our group has been nothing but improvable statements which you fail to
> back up with any evidence which can be checked by any outside source other
> than yourself.
>
> The model may very well be that old, and it may very well have included
> some Varney parts, but to state that it is a Varney made in 1936 on the
> basis of the part number on one small part of the model is totally bogus.
> We were willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say you may just
> not know what you have, but your responses to numerous questions by
> numerous people cannot help but make us feel otherwise.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> Owner
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "eBay Member: tezz55" <s06-m9grkqokir@ members.ebay. com.au>
> To: <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:49 AM
> Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
> ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney
> 1936 Model
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> eBay sent this message to Donald Dellmann (don_dellmann) .
> Your registered name is included to show this message originated from
> eBay.
> Learn more at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/confidence/ name-userid- emails.html
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Seller has responded to your question about this item
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete
> the
> transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy,
> may
> be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs.
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- non-ebay- sale.html.
>
>
> Dear don_dellmann,
>
> Hi there
> Was in a rush to go out yesterday,so did not complete the reply
> you needed from me,..,ok,Mantua for one,was making locos with 12 v running
> motors way back in 1925,..,Hornby- Dublo from the UK was making them around
> the same time.,.,Rytime- Robilt was making trains here long b4 WW II,and
> guess what they ran on too? Well damn me,they all ran on 12 V DC!!
> Now see
> what happens when u open your trap,and make a claim that does not hold up
> under scrutiny mm?
> And the collectors that have written to me ,telling me
> they want mine to add to theirs,must all have it wrong huh? The fact
> theirs
> are also made by Varney,in 1936,must be a figment of their imagination
> huh?
> So,you cretin/moron/ intellectually challenged person (pick one u wish that
> suits you) perhaps u will not go off half cocked with a person that knows
> more than you do about a subject?
> Have a good one mate!
> Tezz
> BTW
> It ran
> on 12 v DC last week too!
>
> -tezz55
>
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
> Respond
> http://contact. ebay.com/ ws/eBayISAPI. dll?M2MContact& item=19037850216 8&requested= tezz55&qid= 759091939& redirect= 0
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Item name: Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037850216 8&ssPageName= ADME:X:RTQ: AU:1123
> Item Id: 190378502168
> End time: Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT
> Seller: tezz55
> Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Here are more items from this seller
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann 12 car UP Yellow set
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037773520 0
> 0 Bids AU $1,800.00
> Shipping: +AU $45.00
>
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann Aluminum Baggage car sliding
> doors
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037809697 4
> 0 Bids AU $200.00
> Shipping: +AU $40.00
>
> Item title: Fleischmann 8 car set W Germany 1950's VHF rare
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037772847 6
> 0 Bids AU $900.00
> Shipping: +AU $65.80
>
> Item title: Brass PCM HO Turbine Propane auxiliary fuel car
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037798424 4
> 0 Bids AU $399.95
> Shipping: View Item to Calculate
>
> Item title: Rivarossi NIB NR 4 8 4 FEF-3 UP
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037775357 2
> 0 Bids AU $600.00
> Shipping: +AU $45.00
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
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> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Keep your money safe http://pages. ebay.com/ help/buy/ payment.html - never
> pay for items with cash or instant money transfer services, such as
> Western
> Union or MoneyGram. In the past some sellers have exploited these payment
> methods in order to defraud buyers, so eBay has banned them from the site.
>
> Received a Second Chance Offer email? Double check that it's genuine
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/buy/ personal- offer.html: Second Chance Offer
> emails come directly from eBay and are shown in your My Messages.
>
> Trade safely. Beware of anyone who contacts you about buying or selling
> outside of eBay
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- non-ebay- sale.html. When you
> trade outside of eBay, you're not able to leave feedback or take advantage
> of protection programs and case resolution tools available on eBay. Report
> http://contact. ebay.com/ ws/eBayISAPI. dll?ContactUs& wftype=3002 an
> inappropriate email.
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> tools. If you and the member you're contacting haven't bought or sold from
> each other recently, our tools may make both of your email addresses
> anonymous.
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> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Learn how you can protect yourself from spoof (fake) emails at:
> http://pages. ebay.com/ education/ spooftutorial/ index.html
>
> Another eBay member sent this email to don.dellmann@ prodigy.net through
> the
> eBay platform. eBay takes no liability for the sending of this email or
> its
> content
>
> Visit our Privacy Policy at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ privacy-policy. html and User Agreement
> at http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ user-agreement. html if you have any
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> You can report this message at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- ov.html as unsolicited
> (spam/spoof) email.
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> owners.
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>
>
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13578 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
I'd also be interested, but not because I have a fabulous collection.

My two cents on valuing is based on my own experience providing it on antique american furniture.

IMHO, accurate descriptions and any provenance documentation is timeless and precious in establishing value, especially for use at some later date.
 
But any "established value prices" no matter how accurate in any one era, are probably temporary over decades.

Chris B.

From: Pawel Artmeijer <anaidni62@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 6:00:51 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing

 

Thank you Frank, about the estate planning stuff.  I would be interested in seeing what info you post.  I have been talking to my wife about this very thing in the last couple of weeks.  You are right about "friends" .  I would be interested in how to go about valuing something, because Fleabay is not an accurate source, although often quoted.  Have quite a few vintage pieces but probably not as many as the majority of the group has.  Most of my stuff the grandchildren will inherit but I would still be interested if you would be so kind to post.  
 
-- On Wed, 3/10/10, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@ hotmail.com> wrote:

From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@ hotmail.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 2:13 PM

 
In all fairness, I thought that my question would generate some comment; sure didn't know it would generate this much interest, including carryover to one of the brass lists that I'm on.
And, I really was prepared to have somebody tell me that "of course Varney did this and it's documented in .......".

In short (my friends can stop laughing now):

1)I will be very interested in seeing any response from eBay.

2)Let me put on my working hat (lawyer; sorry for those of you who hate us). This may be out and out fraud. Proving it would be extremely difficult, as there's always the possibility that the seller honestly thinks this is what he has, thinks this is what it's worth, etc. I can only hope that before anyone drops this kind of money on a toy choo choo that they do some "due diligence". Again, in all fairness, I have a piece of Lionel Standard Gauge that was probably worth about $4K twenty years ago, and is now worth maybe half that.

Sidebar: for my local NMRA group I did an "Estate Planning for Model Railroaders" clinic after we lost two members this year. True to form, and the Brass Guys have gone on at length about this, we had the oft repeated scenario where a guy with, say $20K worth of stuff dies, he's kept the value from his widow, and she takes the $2K that one of his "friends" offers. This can apply to Vintage stuff, also, so if there's no objection I'll post the handout to the files here.

3)Someone asked: if memory serves a few years ago, before the brass market tanked, one of the major auction houses sent out postcards about an upcoming auction. The centerpiece was a (hope I get this right)PFM KCS 2-10-4; the expected selling price was in the ballpark of $8K. I believe they got $27K or $37K for it.

4)I'm slightly a Vintage Guy, but mostly a Brass Guy and Feeble Layout Builder. One of the joys of retirement is that I'm on over 30 railroad and model railroad lists. This list is in the top three in courtesy and helpfulness. [Yes, I remember how you guys helped me cobble together a clinic on Gordon Varney a few years ago]. Good work, gentlemen.

Frank Bongiovanni



Group: vintageHO Message: 13579 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Strange eBay listing
Frank, rereading my post,  I was poorly expressing support for your efforts to educate, not critiquing them in any way.  I meant nothing negative.

Your own email noted the value drop in your own std ga Lionel piece, as well as the auction price that went way over the expected price.

 I should also have noted condition and original packaging as being near-constant elements of valuation, along with an accurate description and any documentation of origin and ownership chain.  I'm sure all of this is already covered in your materials.

Chris B.


From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 4:06:26 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing

 

I'd also be interested, but not because I have a fabulous collection.

My two cents on valuing is based on my own experience providing it on antique american furniture.

IMHO, accurate descriptions and any provenance documentation is timeless and precious in establishing value, especially for use at some later date.
 
But any "established value prices" no matter how accurate in any one era, are probably temporary over decades.

Chris B.

From: Pawel Artmeijer <anaidni62@yahoo. com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Wed, March 10, 2010 6:00:51 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing

 

Thank you Frank, about the estate planning stuff.  I would be interested in seeing what info you post.  I have been talking to my wife about this very thing in the last couple of weeks.  You are right about "friends" .  I would be interested in how to go about valuing something, because Fleabay is not an accurate source, although often quoted.  Have quite a few vintage pieces but probably not as many as the majority of the group has.  Most of my stuff the grandchildren will inherit but I would still be interested if you would be so kind to post.  
 
-- On Wed, 3/10/10, bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@ hotmail.com> wrote:

From: bongiovanni12001 <bongiovanni1@ hotmail.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Strange eBay listing
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 2:13 PM

 
In all fairness, I thought that my question would generate some comment; sure didn't know it would generate this much interest, including carryover to one of the brass lists that I'm on.
And, I really was prepared to have somebody tell me that "of course Varney did this and it's documented in .......".

In short (my friends can stop laughing now):

1)I will be very interested in seeing any response from eBay.

2)Let me put on my working hat (lawyer; sorry for those of you who hate us). This may be out and out fraud. Proving it would be extremely difficult, as there's always the possibility that the seller honestly thinks this is what he has, thinks this is what it's worth, etc. I can only hope that before anyone drops this kind of money on a toy choo choo that they do some "due diligence". Again, in all fairness, I have a piece of Lionel Standard Gauge that was probably worth about $4K twenty years ago, and is now worth maybe half that.

Sidebar: for my local NMRA group I did an "Estate Planning for Model Railroaders" clinic after we lost two members this year. True to form, and the Brass Guys have gone on at length about this, we had the oft repeated scenario where a guy with, say $20K worth of stuff dies, he's kept the value from his widow, and she takes the $2K that one of his "friends" offers. This can apply to Vintage stuff, also, so if there's no objection I'll post the handout to the files here.

3)Someone asked: if memory serves a few years ago, before the brass market tanked, one of the major auction houses sent out postcards about an upcoming auction. The centerpiece was a (hope I get this right)PFM KCS 2-10-4; the expected selling price was in the ballpark of $8K. I believe they got $27K or $37K for it.

4)I'm slightly a Vintage Guy, but mostly a Brass Guy and Feeble Layout Builder. One of the joys of retirement is that I'm on over 30 railroad and model railroad lists. This list is in the top three in courtesy and helpfulness. [Yes, I remember how you guys helped me cobble together a clinic on Gordon Varney a few years ago]. Good work, gentlemen.

Frank Bongiovanni




Group: vintageHO Message: 13580 From: jim heckard Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Don D,
 
             I see by the latest Email reply you received that you now have a special friend in Australia. I think you touched a nerve. Which adjective have you decided you want to be known as. 
 
     I can't do much to make a complaint, of any sort, to Ebay as I am not a member. I'm not even sure of how their policy about this works. I have no problem with a seller asking any price he wants for an item. Buyer Beware.  It's the total disregard for fact that makes this so blatant. It's not like people have not tried to enlighten him. This gentlemen (ahem) still uses phrases of I , we, others and such to back up his claim. No paperwork or solid facts. No names or the exact question(s) he asked .
 
     The few times he states proper names ( Google and English / Bowser ) have been disproven but he still continues to make other very odd statements. He puts in a supposed reply from English / Bowser but never shows the exact question(s) he asked. I also have to wonder how far out of context he takes wording to back his claim. I find one of his latest statements to you also very interesting. " Mantua made 12 volt motors in 1925". He also names other companies that had 12 volt motors early. Even if these would be true he forgets to mention we are talking HO only where size mattered.
 
    I have tried to contact people who can verify or disprove his claims ( mostly disprove ) and have shared these with the group. This has gotten to the point that I think the seller will even go so far as to have a friend make a bid on this tem just so he can claim "See I told you "others" knew and wanted the item".
 
                                                           Jim H
 
   
 
    
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:51 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model

 

I just posted his second more caustic response to my inquiry.

Below is what I replied to him tonight.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936
Model

> Fact: You have told other people to Google Varney triplex. They and I
> have done so. NOWHERE are the two words used in the same sentence
> regarding the same model.
>
> Fact. "1936" is the part number of the locomotive lead truck that was
> used as a tender truck on that model.
>
> Fact: Varney did not offer a boiler suitable for an articulated
> locomotive until 1938.
>
> Fact: I personally have corresponded with the English's at Bowser, they
> deny having any contact with you.
>
> Fact: I have also been in contact with many knowledgeable Varney
> collectors, including contributors to the Greenburg guide to Varney
> trains, who have also been expanding their inquiries to other even more
> knowledgeable collectors, including actual Varney employees of that era.
> NONE have any knowledge whatsoever of that locomotive.
>
> Fact: Varney did not manufacture 12VDC motors prior to 1946.
>
> Fact: To numerous inquiries to you by other people which I been
> privileged to see, nowhere do you offer ANY concrete evidence as to the
> prominence of this model. EVERY response you have made to other people in
> our group has been nothing but improvable statements which you fail to
> back up with any evidence which can be checked by any outside source other
> than yourself.
>
> The model may very well be that old, and it may very well have included
> some Varney parts, but to state that it is a Varney made in 1936 on the
> basis of the part number on one small part of the model is totally bogus.
> We were willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, and say you may just
> not know what you have, but your responses to numerous questions by
> numerous people cannot help but make us feel otherwise.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> Owner
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "eBay Member: tezz55" <s06-m9grkqokir@ members.ebay. com.au>
> To: <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:49 AM
> Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
> ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney
> 1936 Model
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> eBay sent this message to Donald Dellmann (don_dellmann) .
> Your registered name is included to show this message originated from
> eBay.
> Learn more at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/confidence/ name-userid- emails.html
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Seller has responded to your question about this item
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete
> the
> transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy,
> may
> be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs.
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- non-ebay- sale.html.
>
>
> Dear don_dellmann,
>
> Hi there
> Was in a rush to go out yesterday,so did not complete the reply
> you needed from me,..,ok,Mantua for one,was making locos with 12 v running
> motors way back in 1925,..,Hornby- Dublo from the UK was making them around
> the same time.,.,Rytime- Robilt was making trains here long b4 WW II,and
> guess what they ran on too? Well damn me,they all ran on 12 V DC!!
> Now see
> what happens when u open your trap,and make a claim that does not hold up
> under scrutiny mm?
> And the collectors that have written to me ,telling me
> they want mine to add to theirs,must all have it wrong huh? The fact
> theirs
> are also made by Varney,in 1936,must be a figment of their imagination
> huh?
> So,you cretin/moron/ intellectually challenged person (pick one u wish that
> suits you) perhaps u will not go off half cocked with a person that knows
> more than you do about a subject?
> Have a good one mate!
> Tezz
> BTW
> It ran
> on 12 v DC last week too!
>
> -tezz55
>
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
> Respond
> http://contact. ebay.com/ ws/eBayISAPI. dll?M2MContact& item=19037850216 8&requested= tezz55&qid= 759091939& redirect= 0
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Item name: Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037850216 8&ssPageName= ADME:X:RTQ: AU:1123
> Item Id: 190378502168
> End time: Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT
> Seller: tezz55
> Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Here are more items from this seller
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann 12 car UP Yellow set
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037773520 0
> 0 Bids AU $1,800.00
> Shipping: +AU $45.00
>
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann Aluminum Baggage car sliding
> doors
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037809697 4
> 0 Bids AU $200.00
> Shipping: +AU $40.00
>
> Item title: Fleischmann 8 car set W Germany 1950's VHF rare
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037772847 6
> 0 Bids AU $900.00
> Shipping: +AU $65.80
>
> Item title: Brass PCM HO Turbine Propane auxiliary fuel car
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037798424 4
> 0 Bids AU $399.95
> Shipping: View Item to Calculate
>
> Item title: Rivarossi NIB NR 4 8 4 FEF-3 UP
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037775357 2
> 0 Bids AU $600.00
> Shipping: +AU $45.00
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Marketplace Safety Tip
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Keep your money safe http://pages. ebay.com/ help/buy/ payment.html - never
> pay for items with cash or instant money transfer services, such as
> Western
> Union or MoneyGram. In the past some sellers have exploited these payment
> methods in order to defraud buyers, so eBay has banned them from the site.
>
> Received a Second Chance Offer email? Double check that it's genuine
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/buy/ personal- offer.html: Second Chance Offer
> emails come directly from eBay and are shown in your My Messages.
>
> Trade safely. Beware of anyone who contacts you about buying or selling
> outside of eBay
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- non-ebay- sale.html. When you
> trade outside of eBay, you're not able to leave feedback or take advantage
> of protection programs and case resolution tools available on eBay. Report
> http://contact. ebay.com/ ws/eBayISAPI. dll?ContactUs& wftype=3002 an
> inappropriate email.
>
> eBay helps guard your privacy and online safety when you use our messaging
> tools. If you and the member you're contacting haven't bought or sold from
> each other recently, our tools may make both of your email addresses
> anonymous.
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Learn how you can protect yourself from spoof (fake) emails at:
> http://pages. ebay.com/ education/ spooftutorial/ index.html
>
> Another eBay member sent this email to don.dellmann@ prodigy.net through
> the
> eBay platform. eBay takes no liability for the sending of this email or
> its
> content
>
> Visit our Privacy Policy at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ privacy-policy. html and User Agreement
> at http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ user-agreement. html if you have any
> questions.
>
> You can report this message at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- ov.html as unsolicited
> (spam/spoof) email.
> Copyright © 2010 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved.
> Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective
> owners.
> eBay and the eBay logo are trademarks of eBay Inc.
> eBay Inc. is located at 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125.
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13581 From: Paul Stevenson Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Hi all,
 
I've just got to weigh in with a comment as a British bystander to this Varney discussion.  I've been following it with some interest from the beginning.  My suspicions were raised by the photographs.  If I was trying to sell something for $20,000 then I would have a fabulous and detailed set of photos.  I'd write a coherent listing and I'd be very confident of my sources before I quoted them.  Also I would go with a starting price lower than I thought it would get and a reserve if I didn't want to sell below a certain price. 
 
Guess what's missing from this auction?!
 
I reported him to ebay sometime ago as I felt he was either fraudulent or a chancier who was going to make somebody very unhappy.
 
Oh yes, in relation to his latest reply, Hornby Dublo in the UK did use 12volts from the start but that was in 1938.
 
This guy needs stopping.
 
Paul
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model

 

Don D,
 
             I see by the latest Email reply you received that you now have a special friend in Australia. I think you touched a nerve. Which adjective have you decided you want to be known as. 
 
     I can't do much to make a complaint, of any sort, to Ebay as I am not a member. I'm not even sure of how their policy about this works. I have no problem with a seller asking any price he wants for an item. Buyer Beware.  It's the total disregard for fact that makes this so blatant. It's not like people have not tried to enlighten him. This gentlemen (ahem) still uses phrases of I , we, others and such to back up his claim. No paperwork or solid facts. No names or the exact question(s) he asked .
 
     The few times he states proper names ( Google and English / Bowser ) have been disproven but he still continues to make other very odd statements. He puts in a supposed reply from English / Bowser but never shows the exact question(s) he asked. I also have to wonder how far out of context he takes wording to back his claim. I find one of his latest statements to you also very interesting. " Mantua made 12 volt motors in 1925". He also names other companies that had 12 volt motors early. Even if these would be true he forgets to mention we are talking HO only where size mattered.
 
    I have tried to contact people who can verify or disprove his claims ( mostly disprove ) and have shared these with the group. This has gotten to the point that I think the seller will even go so far as to have a friend make a bid on this tem just so he can claim "See I told you "others" knew and wanted the item".
 
                                                           Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13582 From: grassball2003 Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Mantua Automatic Car Coupler Question
Hi, I have some Automatic Car Couplers made by Mantua. Kit #710 in a small brown envelope. They look old :>) Looking for a little info about them. Still used? Or if anyone is interested in them, please contact me off list. Thanks. George
Group: vintageHO Message: 13583 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Mantua Automatic Car Coupler Question
Chck your e-mail.

Noon, Pacific Time, Thursday.

Dave


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "grassball2003" <gabvball@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I have some Automatic Car Couplers made by Mantua. Kit #710 in a small brown envelope. They look old :>) Looking for a little info about them. Still used? Or if anyone is interested in them, please contact me off list. Thanks. George
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13584 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168
Hey, the Brits have arrived! Thanks for the comment, Paul. In any case, look for our friend, Tezz, to use a shill, if necessary, to achieve at least one bid in order to save face before the bidding is over.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/11/2010 2:35:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, paul.pdsteveo@... writes:


Hi all,
 
I've just got to weigh in with a comment as a British bystander to this Varney discussion.  I've been following it with some interest from the beginning.  My suspicions were raised by the photographs.  If I was trying to sell something for $20,000 then I would have a fabulous and detailed set of photos.  I'd write a coherent listing and I'd be very confident of my sources before I quoted them.  Also I would go with a starting price lower than I thought it would get and a reserve if I didn't want to sell below a certain price. 
 
Guess what's missing from this auction?!
 
I reported him to ebay sometime ago as I felt he was either fraudulent or a chancier who was going to make somebody very unhappy.
 
Oh yes, in relation to his latest reply, Hornby Dublo in the UK did use 12volts from the start but that was in 1938.
 
This guy needs stopping.
 
Paul
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model

 

Don D,
 
             I see by the latest Email reply you received that you now have a special friend in Australia. I think you touched a nerve. Which adjective have you decided you want to be known as. 
 
     I can't do much to make a complaint, of any sort, to Ebay as I am not a member. I'm not even sure of how their policy about this works. I have no problem with a seller asking any price he wants for an item. Buyer Beware.  It's the total disregard for fact that makes this so blatant. It's not like people have not tried to enlighten him. This gentlemen (ahem) still uses phrases of I , we, others and such to back up his claim. No paperwork or solid facts. No names or the exact question(s) he asked .
 
     The few times he states proper names ( Google and English / Bowser ) have been disproven but he still continues to make other very odd statements. He puts in a supposed reply from English / Bowser but never shows the exact question(s) he asked. I also have to wonder how far out of context he takes wording to back his claim. I find one of his latest statements to you also very interesting. " Mantua made 12 volt motors in 1925". He also names other companies that had 12 volt motors early. Even if these would be true he forgets to mention we are talking HO only where size mattered.
 
    I have tried to contact people who can verify or disprove his claims ( mostly disprove ) and have shared these with the group. This has gotten to the point that I think the seller will even go so far as to have a friend make a bid on this tem just so he can claim "See I told you "others" knew and wanted the item".
 
                                                           Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13585 From: Chris B Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168
Or he may continue reducing the inital bid price till it's finally priced in accordance with the market...say, a high two figures, perhaps $99 US?
$99 US
From: luvprr@...
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:19:43 EST
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168

 

Hey, the Brits have arrived! Thanks for the comment, Paul. In any case, look for our friend, Tezz, to use a shill, if necessary, to achieve at least one bid in order to save face before the bidding is over.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/11/2010 2:35:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, paul.pdsteveo@ phonecoop. coop writes:


Hi all,
 
I've just got to weigh in with a comment as a British bystander to this Varney discussion.  I've been following it with some interest from the beginning.  My suspicions were raised by the photographs.  If I was trying to sell something for $20,000 then I would have a fabulous and detailed set of photos.  I'd write a coherent listing and I'd be very confident of my sources before I quoted them.  Also I would go with a starting price lower than I thought it would get and a reserve if I didn't want to sell below a certain price. 
 
Guess what's missing from this auction?!
 
I reported him to ebay sometime ago as I felt he was either fraudulent or a chancier who was going to make somebody very unhappy.
 
Oh yes, in relation to his latest reply, Hornby Dublo in the UK did use 12volts from the start but that was in 1938.
 
This guy needs stopping.
 
Paul
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model

 

Don D,
 
             I see by the latest Email reply you received that you now have a special friend in Australia. I think you touched a nerve. Which adjective have you decided you want to be known as. 
 
     I can't do much to make a complaint, of any sort, to Ebay as I am not a member. I'm not even sure of how their policy about this works. I have no problem with a seller asking any price he wants for an item. Buyer Beware.  It's the total disregard for fact that makes this so blatant. It's not like people have not tried to enlighten him. This gentlemen (ahem) still uses phrases of I , we, others and such to back up his claim. No paperwork or solid facts. No names or the exact question(s) he asked .
 
     The few times he states proper names ( Google and English / Bowser ) have been disproven but he still continues to make other very odd statements. He puts in a supposed reply from English / Bowser but never shows the exact question(s) he asked. I also have to wonder how far out of context he takes wording to back his claim. I find one of his latest statements to you also very interesting. " Mantua made 12 volt motors in 1925". He also names other companies that had 12 volt motors early. Even if these would be true he forgets to mention we are talking HO only where size mattered.
 
    I have tried to contact people who can verify or disprove his claims ( mostly disprove ) and have shared these with the group. This has gotten to the point that I think the seller will even go so far as to have a friend make a bid on this tem just so he can claim "See I told you "others" knew and wanted the item".
 
                                                           Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13586 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Estate Planning Handout
Just posted the handout to the Files. It's entitled Estate Planning Handout.

First things first: Chris, I saw nothing negative at all in your comment whatsoever. And you made a point that I want to emphasize [don't forget, this handout goes along with a 45 minute clinic, that includes a lot of Q&A]. I strongly recommended that any inventory be done in electronic form, and updated occasionally. The brass market has fluctuated wildly with the state of the economy and introduction of new and/or better models. And you wouldn't believe, or maybe you would, what happens to the value of a Pretty Good brass model when a really good version of the same model gets introduced in plastic. Yes, I emphasize brass because, let's say you have 300 typical plastic freight cars that are worth $5 apiece; two or three brass engines are worth more and will move faster.

But, if I may, the biggest messages in the clinic are a)take an inventory (yes, this may scare you, or may keep you from buying an unwanted duplicate, or even--heaven forbid--sell something). The inventory needs to have sufficient information that a non-choochoo ist can tell which is the run of the mill Athearn box car from 1970, and what is the surprisingly collectable and rare Athearn etc. etc. b)make sure your probable survivor(s)have some idea of what you've got, what the really good pieces are, and what they are worth on the open market, and who to contact for help. I have seen widows who had no clue what really good stuff is worth, and a few who have a horribly inflated idea of the actual value of some genuine junque; c)make sure they know where the inventory is; d)make sure that they understand the time versus money equation; e)be able to make rational decisions about tax consequences [e.g. I've told my wife that my railroad book collection goes to Clifton Forge (C&O Historical Society)or Chattanooga (NMRA)as an unrestricted gift (they can keep, trade, sell or whatever)and she gets a tax deduction. And that's my suggestion to her, and it's not in the will--the estate doesn't need a tax deduction(if I'm wrong about this chirp in; I'm not a tax expert, and anyone, including my fellow sharks, who tries to come on as a tax expert and hasn't had the relevant section of the code in front of him/her in the last six months doesn't inspire me with confidence).

And those stacks of photos and paper? Please make sure that someone knows what's there. We've had two well known photographers in the Cleveland area pass away, and the family had no clue, so some irreplaceable photos ended up in the dumpster.

I will be happy to answer questions about this. Further commentary is welcome, at least by me (I can't speak for Don). I do want to specifically state that I'm not soliciting legal work, and I'm notdoing appraisals, because I'm still buying stuff and that would be a true conflict of interest.

Frank Bongiovanni
Group: vintageHO Message: 13587 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Estate Planning Handout
----- Original Message -----
From: "bongiovanni12001" <bongiovanni1@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:12 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Estate Planning Handout


> Just posted the handout to the Files. It's entitled Estate Planning
> Handout.
>
> First things first: Chris, I saw nothing negative at all in your comment
> whatsoever. And you made a point that I want to emphasize [don't forget,
> this handout goes along with a 45 minute clinic, that includes a lot of
> Q&A]. I strongly recommended that any inventory be done in electronic
> form, and updated occasionally. The brass market has fluctuated wildly
> with the state of the economy and introduction of new and/or better
> models. And you wouldn't believe, or maybe you would, what happens to the
> value of a Pretty Good brass model when a really good version of the same
> model gets introduced in plastic. Yes, I emphasize brass because, let's
> say you have 300 typical plastic freight cars that are worth $5 apiece;
> two or three brass engines are worth more and will move faster.
>
> But, if I may, the biggest messages in the clinic are a)take an inventory
> (yes, this may scare you, or may keep you from buying an unwanted
> duplicate, or even--heaven forbid--sell something). The inventory needs
> to have sufficient information that a non-choochoo ist can tell which is
> the run of the mill Athearn box car from 1970, and what is the
> surprisingly collectable and rare Athearn etc. etc. b)make sure your
> probable survivor(s)have some idea of what you've got, what the really
> good pieces are, and what they are worth on the open market, and who to
> contact for help. I have seen widows who had no clue what really good
> stuff is worth, and a few who have a horribly inflated idea of the actual
> value of some genuine junque; c)make sure they know where the inventory
> is; d)make sure that they understand the time versus money equation; e)be
> able to make rational decisions about tax consequences [e.g. I've told my
> wife that my railroad book collection goes to Clifton Forge (C&O
> Historical Society)or Chattanooga (NMRA)as an unrestricted gift (they can
> keep, trade, sell or whatever)and she gets a tax deduction. And that's my
> suggestion to her, and it's not in the will--the estate doesn't need a tax
> deduction(if I'm wrong about this chirp in; I'm not a tax expert, and
> anyone, including my fellow sharks, who tries to come on as a tax expert
> and hasn't had the relevant section of the code in front of him/her in the
> last six months doesn't inspire me with confidence).
>
> And those stacks of photos and paper? Please make sure that someone knows
> what's there. We've had two well known photographers in the Cleveland area
> pass away, and the family had no clue, so some irreplaceable photos ended
> up in the dumpster.
>
> I will be happy to answer questions about this. Further commentary is
> welcome, at least by me (I can't speak for Don). I do want to
> specifically state that I'm not soliciting legal work, and I'm notdoing
> appraisals, because I'm still buying stuff and that would be a true
> conflict of interest.
>
> Frank Bongiovanni

I have no objections to this discussion. In fact, as many of us are older
than our models, it is probably timely and relevant.

In my own case., I do have acomputer inventory of at least all my rolling
stock, with an estimate of the "replacement cost" (different from any
perceived "value" of each piece, my wife knows it's there. In addition, in
the event of any loss by theft (heaven forbid), each piece is also
individually pictured in my Flickr album.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
Group: vintageHO Message: 13588 From: trainliker Date: 3/11/2010
Subject: Re: Estate Planning Handout
When it comes to estate planning, I strongly recommend reviewing any planning and document plans with an attorney. (The notion of "codicils" is sure to come up.)

If you don't do things right, a court may still end up deciding what goes where in spite of various files and written wishes you may have made.

I'm not sure if things are the same in all states. Such as perhaps needing the same signature procedures as for other estate papers. Or perhaps not needed for codicils if they are hand written. Anyone who doesn't absolutely know really should find out. Guessing or assuming is what can lead to surprises.

I've been involved now and again with the legal system and am convinced it is a bit like Alice in Wonderland. Up is down. Right is wrong. That sort of thing. It's best to consult with somebody who actually knows the rules printed on that particular game's box top.

Chuck Kinzer

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

>
> I have no objections to this discussion. In fact, as many of us are older
> than our models, it is probably timely and relevant.
>
> In my own case., I do have acomputer inventory of at least all my rolling
> stock, with an estimate of the "replacement cost" (different from any
> perceived "value" of each piece, my wife knows it's there. In addition, in
> the event of any loss by theft (heaven forbid), each piece is also
> individually pictured in my Flickr album.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13589 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, endin
He blinked.

His latest message, and my reply.

Don

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
To: <s06-m9grkqokir@...>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936
Model


> It was most likely assembled by a modeler from parts sometime in the late
> 1930's. Back then there were very few kits, and it was common practice to
> buy a boiler from one maker, mechanisms from another, motors from a third
> and assemble your own locomotive.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "eBay Member: tezz55" <s06-m9grkqokir@...>
> To: <don.dellmann@...>
> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:57 PM
> Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
> ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney
> 1936 Model
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> eBay sent this message to Donald Dellmann (don_dellmann).
> Your registered name is included to show this message originated from
> eBay.
> Learn more at
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/name-userid-emails.html
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Seller has responded to your question about this item
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete
> the
> transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy,
> may
> be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs.
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html.
>
>
> Dear don_dellmann,
>
> Hi Don
> Since you seem to be a straight shooter,who,then,do you think made
> this Virginian 2 8 8 8 4,with the usual Varney/Penn early style coupler on
> the tender,not a kadee or a horn hook,but a ring style ?And it does run on
> 12 V Dc,so perhaps this will give you a clue,and it is cast brass,not
> beaten,and weighs over 3 pounds? I will post your advice on the loco site
> so you get the credit Don.Am not out to fool HO Model enthusiasts ,as
> they
> are very wiley as we all know.I do not wish to defraud any buyer,as much
> as
> you may think otherwise? If you think it was not Varney,then who made
> them?
> Thanks
> tezz
>
>
> -tezz55
>
> =================================================================
> Respond
> http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?M2MContact&item=190378502168&requested=tezz55&qid=760056282&redirect=0
> =================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Item name: Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190378502168&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:AU:1123
> Item Id: 190378502168
> End time: Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT
> Seller: tezz55
> Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Here are more items from this seller
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann Aluminum Baggage car sliding
> doors
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190378096974
> 0 Bids AU $45.00
> Shipping: +AU $40.00
>
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann 12 car UP Yellow set
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190379636484
> 0 Bids AU $600.00
> Shipping: +AU $40.00
>
> Item title: Fleischmann 8 car set W Germany 1950's VHF rare
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190379637754
> 0 Bids AU $250.00
> Shipping: +AU $65.80
>
> Item title: Rivarossi NIB NR 4 8 4 FEF-3 UP
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190379959657
> 0 Bids AU $400.00
> Shipping: +AU $45.00
>
> Item title: Dynamometer C Rare VHF car
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190379347942
> 0 Bids AU $149.00
> Shipping: +AU $25.00
>
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Marketplace Safety Tip
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Keep your money safe http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/payment.html - never
> pay for items with cash or instant money transfer services, such as
> Western
> Union or MoneyGram. In the past some sellers have exploited these payment
> methods in order to defraud buyers, so eBay has banned them from the site.
>
> Received a Second Chance Offer email? Double check that it's genuine
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/personal-offer.html: Second Chance Offer
> emails come directly from eBay and are shown in your My Messages.
>
> Trade safely. Beware of anyone who contacts you about buying or selling
> outside of eBay
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html. When you
> trade outside of eBay, you're not able to leave feedback or take advantage
> of protection programs and case resolution tools available on eBay. Report
> http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ContactUs&wftype=3002 an
> inappropriate email.
>
> eBay helps guard your privacy and online safety when you use our messaging
> tools. If you and the member you're contacting haven't bought or sold from
> each other recently, our tools may make both of your email addresses
> anonymous.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn how you can protect yourself from spoof (fake) emails at:
> http://pages.ebay.com/education/spooftutorial/index.html
>
> Another eBay member sent this email to don.dellmann@... through
> the
> eBay platform. eBay takes no liability for the sending of this email or
> its
> content
>
> Visit our Privacy Policy at
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/privacy-policy.html and User Agreement
> at http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html if you have any
> questions.
>
> You can report this message at
> http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-ov.html as unsolicited
> (spam/spoof) email.
> Copyright © 2010 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved.
> Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective
> owners.
> eBay and the eBay logo are trademarks of eBay Inc.
> eBay Inc. is located at 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125.
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13590 From: Chris B Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
KUDOS DON! And it looks like the gentlemanly tone you kept up all the way through has been contagious enough that he genuinely seems to be trying to match it!

I wonder if the original story was the one his relative always told , and maybe his relative was the one who originally fell for the line!

want to take on any other challenges?  maybe ask Bernie Madoff where he hid the money? 

Nice work.

Chris




From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 8:15:27 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model

 

He blinked.

His latest message, and my reply.

Don

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
To: <s06-m9grkqokir@ members.ebay. com.au>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936
Model

> It was most likely assembled by a modeler from parts sometime in the late
> 1930's. Back then there were very few kits, and it was common practice to
> buy a boiler from one maker, mechanisms from another, motors from a third
> and assemble your own locomotive.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> Owner
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "eBay Member: tezz55" <s06-m9grkqokir@ members.ebay. com.au>
> To: <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:57 PM
> Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
> ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney
> 1936 Model
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> eBay sent this message to Donald Dellmann (don_dellmann) .
> Your registered name is included to show this message originated from
> eBay.
> Learn more at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/confidence/ name-userid- emails.html
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Seller has responded to your question about this item
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete
> the
> transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy,
> may
> be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs.
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- non-ebay- sale.html.
>
>
> Dear don_dellmann,
>
> Hi Don
> Since you seem to be a straight shooter,who, then,do you think made
> this Virginian 2 8 8 8 4,with the usual Varney/Penn early style coupler on
> the tender,not a kadee or a horn hook,but a ring style ?And it does run on
> 12 V Dc,so perhaps this will give you a clue,and it is cast brass,not
> beaten,and weighs over 3 pounds? I will post your advice on the loco site
> so you get the credit Don.Am not out to fool HO Model enthusiasts ,as
> they
> are very wiley as we all know.I do not wish to defraud any buyer,as much
> as
> you may think otherwise? If you think it was not Varney,then who made
> them?
> Thanks
> tezz
>
>
> -tezz55
>
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
> Respond
> http://contact. ebay.com/ ws/eBayISAPI. dll?M2MContact& item=19037850216 8&requested= tezz55&qid= 760056282& redirect= 0
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Item name: Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037850216 8&ssPageName= ADME:X:RTQ: AU:1123
> Item Id: 190378502168
> End time: Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT
> Seller: tezz55
> Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Here are more items from this seller
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann Aluminum Baggage car sliding
> doors
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037809697 4
> 0 Bids AU $45.00
> Shipping: +AU $40.00
>
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann 12 car UP Yellow set
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037963648 4
> 0 Bids AU $600.00
> Shipping: +AU $40.00
>
> Item title: Fleischmann 8 car set W Germany 1950's VHF rare
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037963775 4
> 0 Bids AU $250.00
> Shipping: +AU $65.80
>
> Item title: Rivarossi NIB NR 4 8 4 FEF-3 UP
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037995965 7
> 0 Bids AU $400.00
> Shipping: +AU $45.00
>
> Item title: Dynamometer C Rare VHF car
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037934794 2
> 0 Bids AU $149.00
> Shipping: +AU $25.00
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Marketplace Safety Tip
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Keep your money safe http://pages. ebay.com/ help/buy/ payment.html - never
> pay for items with cash or instant money transfer services, such as
> Western
> Union or MoneyGram. In the past some sellers have exploited these payment
> methods in order to defraud buyers, so eBay has banned them from the site.
>
> Received a Second Chance Offer email? Double check that it's genuine
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/buy/ personal- offer.html: Second Chance Offer
> emails come directly from eBay and are shown in your My Messages.
>
> Trade safely. Beware of anyone who contacts you about buying or selling
> outside of eBay
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- non-ebay- sale.html. When you
> trade outside of eBay, you're not able to leave feedback or take advantage
> of protection programs and case resolution tools available on eBay. Report
> http://contact. ebay.com/ ws/eBayISAPI. dll?ContactUs& wftype=3002 an
> inappropriate email.
>
> eBay helps guard your privacy and online safety when you use our messaging
> tools. If you and the member you're contacting haven't bought or sold from
> each other recently, our tools may make both of your email addresses
> anonymous.
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Learn how you can protect yourself from spoof (fake) emails at:
> http://pages. ebay.com/ education/ spooftutorial/ index.html
>
> Another eBay member sent this email to don.dellmann@ prodigy.net through
> the
> eBay platform. eBay takes no liability for the sending of this email or
> its
> content
>
> Visit our Privacy Policy at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ privacy-policy. html and User Agreement
> at http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ user-agreement. html if you have any
> questions.
>
> You can report this message at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- ov.html as unsolicited
> (spam/spoof) email.
> Copyright © 2010 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved.
> Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective
> owners.
> eBay and the eBay logo are trademarks of eBay Inc.
> eBay Inc. is located at 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125.
>
>
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13591 From: RalphB Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Estate Planning Handout
I'm going to echo what Frank wrote, and I'm also going to make an unapologetic plug for an inventory program that I think is absolutely one of the best available for model railroaders. It's called Yard Office; the web site is http://www.musicmixradio.com/yardoffice/ Not only can you record manufacturer, model number, date purchased, and all the other good stuff, but there's a 'Model Notes' section that's big enough for you to write a book of additional info. And you can include a link to a photo.

It had gotten to the point where I no longer knew what I owned. I had a pretty good idea, but I got the program, pulled out the boxes of "stuff" that I've been collecting for +/- 50 years, and surprised myself. Any every time I buy something, I sit down and enter it right into the computer inventory, either that day or, at the latest, the next day. And if it's something I win on eBay, it's in inventory showing "in transit" before I even pay for it.

My wife knows about the program, and what she can't do with it, my computer-literate son can. My wife also knows that I belong to both a model railroad club and a chapter of the NRHS, and she knows who to contact in both cases (gotta get names and numbers of the ladies in her quilt guild).

Ralph B

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Frank Bongiovanni wrote:
>
> I strongly recommended that any inventory be done in electronic form, and updated occasionally.
>
> But, if I may, the biggest messages in the clinic are a)take an inventory (yes, this may scare you, or may keep you from buying an unwanted duplicate, or even--heaven forbid--sell something). The inventory needs to have sufficient information that a non-choochoo ist can tell which is the run of the mill Athearn box car from 1970, and what is the surprisingly collectable and rare Athearn etc. etc. b)make sure your probable survivor(s)have some idea of what you've got, what the really good pieces are, and what they are worth on the open market, and who to contact for help. c)make sure they know where the inventory is; d)make sure that they understand the time versus money equation; e)be able to make rational decisions about tax consequences....
> And those stacks of photos and paper? Please make sure that someone knows what's there.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13592 From: jim heckard Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Hi Don,
 
    Congratulations and nice job. I was even thinking that you should ask him to try to get better pictures and more angles. That way you could tell him that you have almost 500 members in your group who would try very hard to identify his model for him but not  put a price on what it found.
 
     The statement caught my eye is where he uses the words "Varney / Penn." Could he mean Penn Line as in Penn Line mechanisms which would date model and have 12 volt motors. Just some thoughts  I see he also talks about a ring style coupler.  Mantua ? While that  wouldn't  help date the engine still an added part from another company .
 
    As I said better pictures to ID would be a plus. His mention of cast brass even has to put George Stock's name in the running along with other names  already mentioned. Although he mostly created Pennsylvania style engines he did make some specialty items which could account for even an early pre war item of great quality.
 
  Just some thoughts.  It might actually be fun to see what we could come up with .
 
                                                          Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 8:15 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model

 

He blinked.

His latest message, and my reply.

Don

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
To: <s06-m9grkqokir@ members.ebay. com.au>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936
Model

> It was most likely assembled by a modeler from parts sometime in the late
> 1930's. Back then there were very few kits, and it was common practice to
> buy a boiler from one maker, mechanisms from another, motors from a third
> and assemble your own locomotive.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> Owner
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "eBay Member: tezz55" <s06-m9grkqokir@ members.ebay. com.au>
> To: <don.dellmann@ prodigy.net>
> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:57 PM
> Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
> ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney
> 1936 Model
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> eBay sent this message to Donald Dellmann (don_dellmann) .
> Your registered name is included to show this message originated from
> eBay.
> Learn more at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/confidence/ name-userid- emails.html
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Seller has responded to your question about this item
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete
> the
> transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy,
> may
> be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs.
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- non-ebay- sale.html.
>
>
> Dear don_dellmann,
>
> Hi Don
> Since you seem to be a straight shooter,who, then,do you think made
> this Virginian 2 8 8 8 4,with the usual Varney/Penn early style coupler on
> the tender,not a kadee or a horn hook,but a ring style ?And it does run on
> 12 V Dc,so perhaps this will give you a clue,and it is cast brass,not
> beaten,and weighs over 3 pounds? I will post your advice on the loco site
> so you get the credit Don.Am not out to fool HO Model enthusiasts ,as
> they
> are very wiley as we all know.I do not wish to defraud any buyer,as much
> as
> you may think otherwise? If you think it was not Varney,then who made
> them?
> Thanks
> tezz
>
>
> -tezz55
>
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
> Respond
> http://contact. ebay.com/ ws/eBayISAPI. dll?M2MContact& item=19037850216 8&requested= tezz55&qid= 760056282& redirect= 0
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Item name: Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936 Model
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037850216 8&ssPageName= ADME:X:RTQ: AU:1123
> Item Id: 190378502168
> End time: Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT
> Seller: tezz55
> Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Here are more items from this seller
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann Aluminum Baggage car sliding
> doors
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037809697 4
> 0 Bids AU $45.00
> Shipping: +AU $40.00
>
> Item title: Rare VHF Fleischmann 12 car UP Yellow set
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037963648 4
> 0 Bids AU $600.00
> Shipping: +AU $40.00
>
> Item title: Fleischmann 8 car set W Germany 1950's VHF rare
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037963775 4
> 0 Bids AU $250.00
> Shipping: +AU $65.80
>
> Item title: Rivarossi NIB NR 4 8 4 FEF-3 UP
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037995965 7
> 0 Bids AU $400.00
> Shipping: +AU $45.00
>
> Item title: Dynamometer C Rare VHF car
> Item URL:
> http://cgi.ebay. com.au/ws/ eBayISAPI. dll?ViewItem& item=19037934794 2
> 0 Bids AU $149.00
> Shipping: +AU $25.00
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Marketplace Safety Tip
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Keep your money safe http://pages. ebay.com/ help/buy/ payment.html - never
> pay for items with cash or instant money transfer services, such as
> Western
> Union or MoneyGram. In the past some sellers have exploited these payment
> methods in order to defraud buyers, so eBay has banned them from the site.
>
> Received a Second Chance Offer email? Double check that it's genuine
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/buy/ personal- offer.html: Second Chance Offer
> emails come directly from eBay and are shown in your My Messages.
>
> Trade safely. Beware of anyone who contacts you about buying or selling
> outside of eBay
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- non-ebay- sale.html. When you
> trade outside of eBay, you're not able to leave feedback or take advantage
> of protection programs and case resolution tools available on eBay. Report
> http://contact. ebay.com/ ws/eBayISAPI. dll?ContactUs& wftype=3002 an
> inappropriate email.
>
> eBay helps guard your privacy and online safety when you use our messaging
> tools. If you and the member you're contacting haven't bought or sold from
> each other recently, our tools may make both of your email addresses
> anonymous.
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Learn how you can protect yourself from spoof (fake) emails at:
> http://pages. ebay.com/ education/ spooftutorial/ index.html
>
> Another eBay member sent this email to don.dellmann@ prodigy.net through
> the
> eBay platform. eBay takes no liability for the sending of this email or
> its
> content
>
> Visit our Privacy Policy at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ privacy-policy. html and User Agreement
> at http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ user-agreement. html if you have any
> questions.
>
> You can report this message at
> http://pages. ebay.com/ help/policies/ rfe-spam- ov.html as unsolicited
> (spam/spoof) email.
> Copyright © 2010 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved.
> Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective
> owners.
> eBay and the eBay logo are trademarks of eBay Inc.
> eBay Inc. is located at 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125.
>
>
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13593 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: FA:Thomas Roma Wine Car & APCO Parts/Project Car & Laconia PRR X31a
Currently, ending Sunday, I have three vintage items on eBay,

Thomas Roma Wine Car - Needs reassembly, but looks good.
Thomas APCO tank car - A rebuilding project or Parts car.
Laconia PRR X31a - kit started.

http://shop.ebay.com/garlen/m.html

Is a link to my eBay items. Two items currenty listed.

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 13594 From: Nelson B Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168, e
Very nice work, Detective Dellman. Columbo couldn't have done better.

I filed a fraud report myself last night.

Nelson


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
>
> He blinked.
>
> His latest message, and my reply.
>
> Don
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...>
> To: <s06-m9grkqokir@...>
> Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 7:13 AM
> Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
> ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney 1936
> Model
>
>
> > It was most likely assembled by a modeler from parts sometime in the late
> > 1930's. Back then there were very few kits, and it was common practice to
> > buy a boiler from one maker, mechanisms from another, motors from a third
> > and assemble your own locomotive.
> >
> > Don
> >
> > Don Dellmann
> > don.dellmann@...
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> > Owner
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "eBay Member: tezz55" <s06-m9grkqokir@...>
> > To: <don.dellmann@...>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168,
> > ending on Mar-16-10 15:59:48 PDT - Brass EHF Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 Varney
> > 1936 Model
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > eBay sent this message to Donald Dellmann (don_dellmann).
> > Your registered name is included to show this message originated from
> > eBay.
> > Learn more at
> > http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/name-userid-emails.html
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Seller has responded to your question about this item
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete
> > the
> > transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy,
> > may
> > be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs.
> > http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html.
> >
> >
> > Dear don_dellmann,
> >
> > Hi Don
> > Since you seem to be a straight shooter,who,then,do you think made
> > this Virginian 2 8 8 8 4,with the usual Varney/Penn early style coupler on
> > the tender,not a kadee or a horn hook,but a ring style ?And it does run on
> > 12 V Dc,so perhaps this will give you a clue,and it is cast brass,not
> > beaten,and weighs over 3 pounds? I will post your advice on the loco site
> > so you get the credit Don.Am not out to fool HO Model enthusiasts ,as
> > they
> > are very wiley as we all know.I do not wish to defraud any buyer,as much
> > as
> > you may think otherwise? If you think it was not Varney,then who made
> > them?
> > Thanks
> > tezz
> >
> >
> > -tezz55
Group: vintageHO Message: 13595 From: jim heckard Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: another mislabeled Varney
           Go to Ebay item  280477330115       Vintage Varney Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric    being sold by   wingnut33   and you will find another item listed as Varney but mislabeled. While the item is a model of a brass electric you will also see it is run by what looks to be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the coil spring belt / variable pulley set up.
 
    Read the description. The seller cites Varney and also mentions that it must be rare because he has never seen one. While the starting price is not outlandish I again have to wonder is the seller just using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he / she just misinformed.
 
                                                            Jim H
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13596 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Guys, this stuff goes on all the time. People don't want to do their homework or just don't care and hope the word "rare" performs some magic. I've corrected sellers at various times over the years on eBay, and some of them actually appreciate it--while others get really nasty and defensive about their ridiculous listings.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/12/2010 2:00:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jimheck@... writes:


           Go to Ebay item  280477330115       Vintage Varney Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric    being sold by   wingnut33   and you will find another item listed as Varney but mislabeled. While the item is a model of a brass electric you will also see it is run by what looks to be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the coil spring belt / variable pulley set up.
 
    Read the description. The seller cites Varney and also mentions that it must be rare because he has never seen one. While the starting price is not outlandish I again have to wonder is the seller just using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he / she just misinformed.
 
                                                            Jim H
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13597 From: John H Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
This guy is basing his description on the power trucks. At least they are a major part of the unit. I have to think he just doesn't know any better. He also has a Mantua "Big Six" (complete with valve gear BTW) listed as a Bowser "Big Six".

Yeah, I correct them at times and usually they seem to appreciate it, but, like Art says, some of them get huffy. Oh well, we can't make the world perfect.

Actually, the electric looks interesting. I just may (only may, don't want to discourage anyone from bidding) make a bid on that.

John Hagen

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Go to Ebay item 280477330115 Vintage Varney Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric being sold by wingnut33 and you will find another item listed as Varney but mislabeled. While the item is a model of a brass electric you will also see it is run by what looks to be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the coil spring belt / variable pulley set up.
>
> Read the description. The seller cites Varney and also mentions that it must be rare because he has never seen one. While the starting price is not outlandish I again have to wonder is the seller just using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he / she just misinformed.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13598 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Yeah, I saw the "Bowser" too... Had to chuckle a little..
I was planning on bidding on the brass one myself...
Sean


From: John H <sprinthag@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 4:21:01 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: another mislabeled Varney

 

This guy is basing his description on the power trucks. At least they are a major part of the unit. I have to think he just doesn't know any better. He also has a Mantua "Big Six" (complete with valve gear BTW) listed as a Bowser "Big Six".

Yeah, I correct them at times and usually they seem to appreciate it, but, like Art says, some of them get huffy. Oh well, we can't make the world perfect.

Actually, the electric looks interesting. I just may (only may, don't want to discourage anyone from bidding) make a bid on that.

John Hagen

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> Go to Ebay item 280477330115 Vintage Varney Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric being sold by wingnut33 and you will find another item listed as Varney but mislabeled. While the item is a model of a brass electric you will also see it is run by what looks to be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the coil spring belt / variable pulley set up.
>
> Read the description. The seller cites Varney and also mentions that it must be rare because he has never seen one. While the starting price is not outlandish I again have to wonder is the seller just using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he / she just misinformed.
>
> Jim H
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13599 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
jim heckard wrote:
>
>
> Go to Ebay item 280477330115 Vintage Varney Brass
> 4-4-4-4 Electric being sold by wingnut33 and you will find
> another item listed as Varney but mislabeled. While the item is a
> model of a brass electric you will also see it is run by what looks to
> be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the coil spring belt /
> variable pulley set up.
>
> Read the description. The seller cites Varney and also mentions
> that it must be rare because he has never seen one. While the starting
> price is not outlandish I again have to wonder is the seller just
> using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he / she just
> misinformed.
>
> Jim H
>
>
Bought another one like this some years ago... seems this sort of
kitbashing (?) was quite common back then, for those wanting an Illinois
Class C but short of money... unfortunately the one I had bought fell
apart during transit, trucks from zamac rot, body from dried out glue.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13600 From: RalphB Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Took a look at it and drooled. Okay, there are errors. The prototype was a B-B+B-B, and all eight axles should be powered. But, as Gerold pointed out, it is an IT Class C motor; it's even decaled correctly. It's just that the trucks are not correct, and the trolley poles are missing. If I had ever finished stringing wire over my son's layout (he's married and on his own, the layout's still in my basement), I'd be tempted. ;-)

Ralph B

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Go to Ebay item 280477330115 Vintage Varney Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric being sold by wingnut33 and you will find another item listed as Varney but mislabeled.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13601 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
jim heckard wrote:
>
>
> Go to Ebay item 280477330115 Vintage Varney Brass
> 4-4-4-4 Electric being sold by wingnut33 and you will find
> another item listed as Varney but mislabeled. While the item is a model
> of a brass electric you will also see it is run by what looks to be two
> Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the coil spring belt / variable
> pulley set up.
>
> Read the description. The seller cites Varney and also mentions that
> it must be rare because he has never seen one. While the starting price
> is not outlandish I again have to wonder is the seller just using the
> word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he / she just misinformed.

Given how many structure kits sellers will use "FSM" or the full
spelling as bait on a kit that didn't come from George, I imagine a high
possibility that this seller may be using it to fish for more traffic.

--

Rick Jones

High blood pressure sufferers: simply cut yourself and bleed for
a while, thus reducing the pressure in your veins.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13602 From: IAN Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: hi all
hi i build model trucks and just started doing milatry as well im also building with my father in lay a large train layout


ian preston
Group: vintageHO Message: 13603 From: John H Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
> Given how many structure kits sellers will use "FSM" or the full
> spelling as bait on a kit that didn't come from George, I imagine a high
> possibility that this seller may be using it to fish for more traffic.
>
> --
>
> Rick Jones

Well, if he's fishin' I think he's using the wrong pole. I'm thinking he could attract more with words like brass, custom built, IT four truck, etc. Varney may be a huge attraction to us vintage types but to the hobby at large...I dunno.

John Hagen
Group: vintageHO Message: 13604 From: jim heckard Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: hi all
Hi Ian,
 
  Welcome to the group. I take it you are new to the group. Would you happen to be one of our younger members ?  Good luck with your model railroad. Hope we can help if you have a question
 
 
                                    Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: IAN
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 6:30 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] hi all

 

hi i build model trucks and just started doing milatry as well im also building with my father in lay a large train layout

ian preston

Group: vintageHO Message: 13605 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/12/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Looks like a fair model of an IT, Illinois Terminal, 'C' motor.  Just missing the trolley poles and the Baldwin side frames.

Garry Spear

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 1:59 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
 

           Go to Ebay item  280477330115       Vintage Varney Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric    being sold by   wingnut33   and you will find another item listed as Varney but mislabeled. While the item is a model of a brass electric you will also see it is run by what looks to be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the coil spring belt / variable pulley set up.
 
    Read the description. The seller cites Varney and also mentions that it must be rare because he has never seen one. While the starting price is not outlandish I again have to wonder is the seller just using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he / she just misinformed.
 
                                                            Jim H
 
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13606 From: jim heckard Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: keepimg a record
         I totally agree that you should have a record of your train collection. Not only so you can keep track of what you have but in case something would happen to you so other family members have an idea of what they are and value. Baring unforeseen circumstances I intend to pass  my collection along to my wife first and then my two children. 
 
     Over the years I have kept an updated list of each individual item even having a second copy kept elsewhere. At the start of a new year I revise where necessary including approximate value changes if necessary.  This is the hard part especially value.
 
     My collection is 95% in open view either shown on shelves containing track or boxed items on larger shelves. Each item has a  mounted sticker with basic info ( Company, year made, type of engine or passenger car, etc. ) in front of it. This matches information in my written records except price. That way an item can be matched to a record.
 
    The final thing I do might be an easy thing to do for value. Again setting an exact dollar value is hard and I try to set a range that includes condition and latest / sales of the item. I use a system of 5 different colored stick on circles placed in front of each tem.
 
  White is for  $ 0 - $100 range items
  Black is for  $101 - $250
  Red is for    $251 - $500
  Silver is for  $501 - $1000
  Gold is for   $1001 and over
 
     This sticker system can be done quick and easy even with a very large collection by anyone. This will give a wife or family member some idea ( approximate ) where to start. And with the permanent tag along side lets them know something about the item above it. Just my way .
 
                                                                           Jim H
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13607 From: rcjge Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Yup, saw that.

With a side interest in Traction (In a club) I'm gonna chase this, see where it goes... will be bidding on another brass steamer so, this will be the consolation if I don't get it...

Hey Sean, F3 Invoice baby, Invoice! Also the YB!!!

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Go to Ebay item 280477330115 Vintage Varney Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric being sold by wingnut33 and you will find another item listed as Varney but mislabeled. While the item is a model of a brass electric you will also see it is run by what looks to be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the coil spring belt / variable pulley set up.
>
> Read the description. The seller cites Varney and also mentions that it must be rare because he has never seen one. While the starting price is not outlandish I again have to wonder is the seller just using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he / she just misinformed.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13608 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Wondering on this--Kemtron had sets of etchings for the IT Class B and Class
C electric locos in O Scale--and I know that they did some of their items in
both O and HO--Might this be a source for the body of that loco? Being
photo-etched parts it would have been a fairly simple process to print new
negatives for HO.

gj

----- Original Message -----
From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 8:55 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: another mislabeled Varney


> Yup, saw that.
>
> With a side interest in Traction (In a club) I'm gonna chase this, see
> where it goes... will be bidding on another brass steamer so, this will be
> the consolation if I don't get it...
>
> Hey Sean, F3 Invoice baby, Invoice! Also the YB!!!
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>>
>> Go to Ebay item 280477330115 Vintage Varney Brass
>> 4-4-4-4 Electric being sold by wingnut33 and you will find another
>> item listed as Varney but mislabeled. While the item is a model of a
>> brass electric you will also see it is run by what looks to be two Varney
>> F-3 diesel power trucks that have the coil spring belt / variable pulley
>> set up.
>>
>> Read the description. The seller cites Varney and also mentions that
>> it must be rare because he has never seen one. While the starting price
>> is not outlandish I again have to wonder is the seller just using the
>> word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he / she just misinformed.
>>
>> Jim H
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13609 From: Chris B Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
These Suydam brass models of IT Class C motors come through on ebay fairly often.

Suydam Brass Illinois Terminal Class C Electric Loco.Top-rated
 Seller11 Bids$140.50Mar-09 18:

I see them when I'm looking for Suydam CNS&M coaches & Combines from the 200 series, they're the closest models available to W&OD traction.

I have two but I'm hoping to find a low budget junker to convert into the W&OD's RPO combine.
 
I also see them when I'm trying for Suydam Baldwin Westinghouse steeple cab electric motors, I need two of those, though so far I haven't dug deep enough to win one.

I have a Ken Kidder GE Alco, but the W&OD bought two Baldwins in 1920, so I hope to replace the GE at some point, with one or two Suydam Baldwins.

W&OD #50 was a Baldwin Westinghouse bought new in 1920, and is still running today as Iowa Traction #50. 

Not bad, I wouldn't mind still being useful at 90.

Chris B.


From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 9:51:13 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] another mislabeled Varney

 

Looks like a fair model of an IT, Illinois Terminal, 'C' motor.  Just missing the trolley poles and the Baldwin side frames.

Garry Spear

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 1:59 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
 

           Go to Ebay item  280477330115       Vintage Varney Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric    being sold by   wingnut33   and you will find another item listed as Varney but mislabeled. While the item is a model of a brass electric you will also see it is run by what looks to be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the coil spring belt / variable pulley set up.
 
    Read the description.  The seller cites Varney and also mentions that it must be rare because he has never seen one. While the starting price is not outlandish I again have to wonder is the seller just using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he / she just misinformed.
 
                                                            Jim H
 
 


Group: vintageHO Message: 13610 From: rcjge Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
hey Chris;

That was useful info about the "C" It looks like the fella replaced the Suydam spring drive with the Varney. The original was available in 8 & 16 wheel drive was it not?

Traction is a recent interest of mine...

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> These Suydam brass models of IT Class C motors come through on ebay fairly often.
>
>
> Suydam Brass Illinois Terminal Class C Electric Loco. 11 Bids $140.50 Mar-09 18:
>
> I see them when I'm looking for Suydam CNS&M coaches & Combines from the 200 series, they're the closest models available to W&OD traction.
>
> I have two but I'm hoping to find a low budget junker to convert into the W&OD's RPO combine.
>
> I also see them when I'm trying for Suydam Baldwin Westinghouse steeple cab electric motors, I need two of those, though so far I haven't dug deep enough to win one.
>
> I have a Ken Kidder GE Alco, but the W&OD bought two Baldwins in 1920, so I hope to replace the GE at some point, with one or two Suydam Baldwins.
>
> W&OD #50 was a Baldwin Westinghouse bought new in 1920, and is still running today as Iowa Traction #50.
>
> Not bad, I wouldn't mind still being useful at 90.
>
> Chris B.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 9:51:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] another mislabeled Varney
>
>
> Looks like a fair model of an IT, Illinois Terminal, 'C' motor. Just missing the trolley poles and the Baldwin side frames.
>
> Garry Spear
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 1:59 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> > Go to
> >Ebay item 280477330115 Vintage Varney
> >Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric being sold by
> >wingnut33 and you will find another item listed as Varney but
> >mislabeled. While the item is a model of a brass electric you will also see it
> >is run by what looks to be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the
> >coil spring belt / variable pulley set up.
> >
> > Read the description. The
> >seller cites Varney and also mentions that it must be rare because he
> >has never seen one. While the starting price is not outlandish I again have to
> >wonder is the seller just using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he /
> >she just misinformed.
> >
> >
> >Jim H
> >
> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13611 From: rcjge Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Hey Guys:

It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else share that notion?

Thanks,
Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13612 From: Marlene Mahoney Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: how do I?
When looking for a particular HO scale or Model RR website developed by a friend, how can I find his/her domain name?
Go by his user name or present email address?
or by his EBAY top seller info online?

Group: vintageHO Message: 13613 From: Wally Weart Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
The car body is a somewhat inaccurate job of modeling a Illinois Terminal Class C 4 truck locomotive as there are some errors in the body, lettering and the paint.  What it does represent is a very early attempt at scratch building using brass working skills and available power trucks. It is a very interesting piece for that reason and as I think it's a one of a kind, it likely is rare. Certainly worth saving and maybe it should be repainted as the correct paint and decals are available.

I have too have often seen eBay sellers identify a piece based on the power truck or some other detail. They risk not getting full value by mis-identifying the item or the seller overpays for something common. I bought a bronze cast interurban car body for a fraction of it's value because the seller didn't know what they had and didn't ask. It was equipped with an original Lindsey power truck, same as was one used in the "Ghost".

I have been modeling interurbans since 1962 when I bought my first Walthers kit. I have several, both built and yet to be built, somewhat crude by todays' standards but really great at the time. I wish they were still available.

Wally

Group: vintageHO Message: 13614 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Hi Gareth,

Yes, the Varney diecast zamac EMD switcher is an NW-2, and a highly accurate model at that, and according to the Varney Guide, based upon the lost wax brass NW-2 produced by Varney associate Bob Lindsay a few years earlier, with his permission. The distinguishing identification points of an NW-2 include the half-length front radiator grill and rounded cab fore and aft windows, according to the old Kalmbach Diesel Spotter's Guide. The SW 7/9 have a full legnth grill and flat top cab windows, among other distinguishing characteristics.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Guys:
>
> It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else share that notion?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13615 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
From photos and information I have (primarily from the "Diesel Spotter's
Guide") it's a "phase 1" (pre-WWII) NW-2

Revell's "SW-7" is a postwar "phase II" NW-2. The difference is in the
slope of the hood back to the cab.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 2:06 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?


> Hey Guys:
>
> It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was
> an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else
> share that notion?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13616 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Chris B wrote:
> These Suydam brass models of IT Class C motors come through on ebay
> fairly often.
>
> <http://desc.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=suydam+&_sacat=19128&LH_TitleDesc=1&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_sop=10&_dmpt=Model_RR_Trains&_odkw=suydam+combine&_osacat=19128#>
> Suydam Brass Illinois Terminal Class C Electric Loco.
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/Suydam-Brass-Illinois-Terminal-Class-C-Electric-Loco_W0QQitemZ330412516220QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item4cee1ee37c>
> Top-rated Seller 11 Bids $140.50 Mar-09 18:

Perhaps someone can explain why there is apparently a third trolley
pole offset to one side?

--

Rick Jones

"My weight is perfect for my height ... which varies."
-Stephen Wright
Group: vintageHO Message: 13617 From: corv9 Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
>
> Perhaps someone can explain why there is apparently a third trolley
> pole offset to one side?
>
> --
>
They did a lot of switching with them... so they had roller and slider poles ( think this was an in service modification); rollers to back up without dewiring and sliders for mainline running. Never understood why they had three and not four... the later Class D had four.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13618 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
These are probably the same people that call Lionel's NW-2 an 'SW-1', because that is what Lionel originally called it!

Seriously, though, I can see the error - just like all new GE diesels look the same to me, some switchers look the same to everyone. Plus, it is not as though we see them on the mainline much (Or at all today, with older Geeps used more in yard service).

I have had a couple Varney NW-2s, one with the spring belt drive. Very nice units indeed! I am also working on restoring the mechanism for a Revell SW-7 for a friend.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 3/13/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 2:06 PM

 

Hey Guys:

It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else share that notion?

Thanks,
Gareth

Group: vintageHO Message: 13619 From: Chris B Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Hey Gareth,
that looks like original Suydam drive to me.  All the gas electrics and trolleys I've seen have spring belt drive to a single truck, but all the electric profile locomotives I've seen have dual truck drive setups like this one, with a white plastic notched drive shaft between them. 
The brass outline on the bottome of the truck looks like the one I have on a Suydam Brill single truck drive gas electric,
you can't see the belt from the bottom on that unit either.

I've only learned what I know about traction in the last few years myself, the HOSeeker pages on Suydam are worth their weight in brass, those old catalogs and loking at dozens of ebay auctions are where I've gotten most of my info.
MTS is still importing traction today, mostly units built by AJIN, the same Korean brass maker that does most OMI Overland units.

The W&OD's ancestry includes the Great Falls and Old Dominion railway, a short lived short line outside Washington DC that ran a few Manhattan elevated Forneys and passenger coaches when it started in 1906 to supplement its's electric interurban cars, after the Forneys were sold all over when NYC banned steam.

The brass set of an MTS Forney 0-4-4 T steam engine and two coaches is a sweet impressive piece of craftsmanship, but at almost $800 I don't think I'll ever see one on my tracks.  One of the coaches hung around as a W&OD tool shed at Bluemont Junction till after WWII, I hope to bash a modest version out of an old Mantua brass duckbill coach someday.  that's more my budget. 

I did pickup a stack of OMI drives when I started buying for my layout, that's what I plan to use to make the Suydam North Shore coaches able to climb my 4% grades from Rosslyn up to Bluemont Jct. 

In the real world, the Baldwin Westinghouse and traction cars climbed up those grades like walking in the park, all the steam and early diesel units always needed helper service from the remaining electric freight motors to make it up the grades...

Chris



From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:04:00 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: another mislabeled Varney

 

hey Chris;

That was useful info about the "C" It looks like the fella replaced the Suydam spring drive with the Varney. The original was available in 8 & 16 wheel drive was it not?

Traction is a recent interest of mine...

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> These Suydam brass models of IT Class C motors come through on ebay fairly often.
>
>
> Suydam Brass Illinois Terminal Class C Electric Loco. 11 Bids $140.50 Mar-09 18:
>
> I see them when I'm looking for Suydam CNS&M coaches & Combines from the 200 series, they're the closest models available to W&OD traction.
>
> I have two but I'm hoping to find a low budget junker to convert into the W&OD's RPO combine.
>
> I also see them when I'm trying for Suydam Baldwin Westinghouse steeple cab electric motors, I need two of those, though so far I haven't dug deep enough to win one.
>
> I have a Ken Kidder GE Alco, but the W&OD bought two Baldwins in 1920, so I hope to replace the GE at some point, with one or two Suydam Baldwins.
>
> W&OD #50 was a Baldwin Westinghouse bought new in 1920, and is still running today as Iowa Traction #50.
>
> Not bad, I wouldn't mind still being useful at 90.
>
> Chris B.
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@ ...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 9:51:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] another mislabeled Varney
>
>
> Looks like a fair model of an IT, Illinois Terminal, 'C' motor. Just missing the trolley poles and the Baldwin side frames.
>
> Garry Spear
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 1:59 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> > Go to
> >Ebay item 280477330115 Vintage Varney
> >Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric being sold by
> >wingnut33 and you will find another item listed as Varney but
> >mislabeled. While the item is a model of a brass electric you will also see it
> >is run by what looks to be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the
> >coil spring belt / variable pulley set up.
> >
> > Read the description. The
> >seller cites Varney and also mentions that it must be rare because he
> >has never seen one. While the starting price is not outlandish I again have to
> >wonder is the seller just using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he /
> >she just misinformed.
> >
> >
> >Jim H
> >
> >
> >>
> >
> >
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13620 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Fw: don_dellmann has sent a question about item #190378502168
Great job, Don. That's what I would call "diplomacy." It's good to see
this guy reconsidering. Just as some others have done, I also lodged a
complaint to eBay about this guy. Perhaps with all these emails to him, plus
possibly eBay getting on his case, this may all have caused this guy to tone
down. Still, I will continue to believe he was really hoping to rip somebody
off, and I doubt it was just a matter of him not knowing any better. For an
H0 model to otherwise be worth $20,000, it would have to be gold plated and
have 1 Ct.diamonds for headlights, one at each end. He had to know that
even the rarest model was not worth what he was asking.

Just as Jim's suggesting, I too had thought early on about the possibility
of this being a George Stock engine, but then I don't think he'd need to buy
pilot trucks from Varney so I dismissed that notion. Ray F.W.</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13621 From: Chris B Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Is this listing one of those very Lindsay NW-2s?


Vntg HO Great Northern Railway Caboose Brass as-isTop-rated Seller7 Bids$32.642d 22h 49



From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:46:05 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

 

Hi Gareth,

Yes, the Varney diecast zamac EMD switcher is an NW-2, and a highly accurate model at that, and according to the Varney Guide, based upon the lost wax brass NW-2 produced by Varney associate Bob Lindsay a few years earlier, with his permission. The distinguishing identification points of an NW-2 include the half-length front radiator grill and rounded cab fore and aft windows, according to the old Kalmbach Diesel Spotter's Guide. The SW 7/9 have a full legnth grill and flat top cab windows, among other distinguishing characteristics.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hey Guys:
>
> It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else share that notion?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13622 From: Nelson B Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
I'm always amazed at how many sellers don't do the minimum due diligence to find out what they have, even when it puts THEM at a disadvantage.

About 6 months ago I watched a well-known train dealer list and re-list a Rivarossi Krauss Maffei chassis without success, because they said it was for the E8. Not a big ticket item, but after a few go 'rounds I thought I'd help out and sent them a note telling them what it really was, including links to the exploded diagrams on HOSeeker, but nothing I showed the woman who responded convinced her. She said that Rivarossi had many design changes over the years, and this was just one of those variations. I tried to tell her that they changed motors and drive train components, not the cosmetic design of the trucks, fuel tank, pilot, and length of the prototype.

When she responded that they had, I finally dropped it, because there just ain't no cure for stupid.

Nelson


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
>
> Guys, this stuff goes on all the time. People don't want to do their
> homework or just don't care and hope the word "rare" performs some magic. I've
> corrected sellers at various times over the years on eBay, and some of them
> actually appreciate it--while others get really nasty and defensive about
> their ridiculous listings.
>
> Art W
Group: vintageHO Message: 13623 From: corv9 Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
> I bought a bronze cast interurban car body for a fraction of it's
> value because the seller didn't know what they had and didn't ask. It
> was equipped with an original Lindsey power truck, same as was one
> used in the "Ghost".

Wally,

when you mention a "cast bronze" interurban only the two (??) IT bodies ( Boc motor and combine) by Frank Schlegel come to my mind... they surely would qualify for rare... have seen maybe three or four of them in ten years... two of these reside in my display cabinet 8-)...

would be very interested in more info about your model, and anything else concerning Frank Schlegel. Please contact me either through the list or off list.

>
> I have been modeling interurbans since 1962 when I bought my first
> Walthers kit. I have several, both built and yet to be built,
> somewhat crude by todays' standards but really great at the time. I
> wish they were still available.
>
> Wally
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13624 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

All it takes is one source to publish an erroneous  designation and it sticks.  I recall back when the GP's were new--one of the magazines declared that the difference between a GP-7 and a GP-9 was that the GP-9 had the dynamic brakes, GP-7 didn't.   For years manufacturers perpetuated that.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

These are probably the same people that call Lionel's NW-2 an 'SW-1', because that is what Lionel originally called it!

Seriously, though, I can see the error - just like all new GE diesels look the same to me, some switchers look the same to everyone. Plus, it is not as though we see them on the mainline much (Or at all today, with older Geeps used more in yard service).

I have had a couple Varney NW-2s, one with the spring belt drive. Very nice units indeed! I am also working on restoring the mechanism for a Revell SW-7 for a friend.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 3/13/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 2:06 PM

 

Hey Guys:

It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else share that notion?

Thanks,
Gareth

Group: vintageHO Message: 13625 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 3/13/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
So far as it goes, Lionel followed that logic too. But then, a chop nose GP-9 was also known as a GP-20, despite numerous other differences, like rooftop fans.

I think Athearn was in that boat too, if I am not mistaken.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 3/13/10, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 7:25 PM

 



All it takes is one source to publish an erroneous  designation and it sticks.  I recall back when the GP's were new--one of the magazines declared that the difference between a GP-7 and a GP-9 was that the GP-9 had the dynamic brakes, GP-7 didn't.   For years manufacturers perpetuated that.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

These are probably the same people that call Lionel's NW-2 an 'SW-1', because that is what Lionel originally called it!

Seriously, though, I can see the error - just like all new GE diesels look the same to me, some switchers look the same to everyone. Plus, it is not as though we see them on the mainline much (Or at all today, with older Geeps used more in yard service).

I have had a couple Varney NW-2s, one with the spring belt drive. Very nice units indeed! I am also working on restoring the mechanism for a Revell SW-7 for a friend.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Sat, 3/13/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@gmail. com> wrote:

From: rcjge <jgpedwards@gmail. com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Saturday, March 13, 2010, 2:06 PM

 

Hey Guys:

It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else share that notion?

Thanks,
Gareth

Group: vintageHO Message: 13626 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Hey Fella's:

Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?

Thanks,
Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13627 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: another mislabeled Varney
Hey Chris:

No question "Juice Jacks" rock! I've gone through the Suydam pages a couple of times as well. I belong to a Teaction club here in Toronto, but it's very inactive. :-(

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Gareth,
> that looks like original Suydam drive to me. All the gas electrics and trolleys I've seen have spring belt drive to a single truck, but all the electric profile locomotives I've seen have dual truck drive setups like this one, with a white plastic notched drive shaft between them.
> The brass outline on the bottome of the truck looks like the one I have on a Suydam Brill single truck drive gas electric,
> you can't see the belt from the bottom on that unit either.
>
> I've only learned what I know about traction in the last few years myself, the HOSeeker pages on Suydam are worth their weight in brass, those old catalogs and loking at dozens of ebay auctions are where I've gotten most of my info.
> MTS is still importing traction today, mostly units built by AJIN, the same Korean brass maker that does most OMI Overland units.
>
> The W&OD's ancestry includes the Great Falls and Old Dominion railway, a short lived short line outside Washington DC that ran a few Manhattan elevated Forneys and passenger coaches when it started in 1906 to supplement its's electric interurban cars, after the Forneys were sold all over when NYC banned steam.
>
> The brass set of an MTS Forney 0-4-4 T steam engine and two coaches is a sweet impressive piece of craftsmanship, but at almost $800 I don't think I'll ever see one on my tracks. One of the coaches hung around as a W&OD tool shed at Bluemont Junction till after WWII, I hope to bash a modest version out of an old Mantua brass duckbill coach someday. that's more my budget.
>
> I did pickup a stack of OMI drives when I started buying for my layout, that's what I plan to use to make the Suydam North Shore coaches able to climb my 4% grades from Rosslyn up to Bluemont Jct.
>
> In the real world, the Baldwin Westinghouse and traction cars climbed up those grades like walking in the park, all the steam and early diesel units always needed helper service from the remaining electric freight motors to make it up the grades...
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:04:00 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: another mislabeled Varney
>
>
> hey Chris;
>
> That was useful info about the "C" It looks like the fella replaced the Suydam spring drive with the Varney. The original was available in 8 & 16 wheel drive was it not?
>
> Traction is a recent interest of mine...
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
> >
> > These Suydam brass models of IT Class C motors come through on ebay fairly often.
> >
> >
> > Suydam Brass Illinois Terminal Class C Electric Loco. 11 Bids $140.50 Mar-09 18:
> >
> > I see them when I'm looking for Suydam CNS&M coaches & Combines from the 200 series, they're the closest models available to W&OD traction.
> >
> > I have two but I'm hoping to find a low budget junker to convert into the W&OD's RPO combine.
> >
> > I also see them when I'm trying for Suydam Baldwin Westinghouse steeple cab electric motors, I need two of those, though so far I haven't dug deep enough to win one.
> >
> > I have a Ken Kidder GE Alco, but the W&OD bought two Baldwins in 1920, so I hope to replace the GE at some point, with one or two Suydam Baldwins.
> >
> > W&OD #50 was a Baldwin Westinghouse bought new in 1920, and is still running today as Iowa Traction #50.
> >
> > Not bad, I wouldn't mind still being useful at 90.
> >
> > Chris B.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@ ...>
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 9:51:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] another mislabeled Varney
> >
> >
> > Looks like a fair model of an IT, Illinois Terminal, 'C' motor. Just missing the trolley poles and the Baldwin side frames.
> >
> > Garry Spear
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 1:59 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > > Go to
> > >Ebay item 280477330115 Vintage Varney
> > >Brass 4-4-4-4 Electric being sold by
> > >wingnut33 and you will find another item listed as Varney but
> > >mislabeled. While the item is a model of a brass electric you will also see it
> > >is run by what looks to be two Varney F-3 diesel power trucks that have the
> > >coil spring belt / variable pulley set up.
> > >
> > > Read the description. The
> > >seller cites Varney and also mentions that it must be rare because he
> > >has never seen one. While the starting price is not outlandish I again have to
> > >wonder is the seller just using the word Varney to catch a buyers eye or is he /
> > >she just misinformed.
> > >
> > >
> > >Jim H
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13628 From: still just frank Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Fella's:
>
> Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth


Gareth ; There are actualy 4 different frames with them having differences in switcher and tank. Also plastic bodied and metal. The tank is also longer than the switcher.
frank
Group: vintageHO Message: 13629 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Some of the early ones are Frank. The goat frame had a small extension added to the rear which was held on with one screw. It wold then mount into a tab hole located at the bottom of the tank behind the cab.

Sean 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 14, 2010, at 10:53 AM, "still just  frank" <toptrain2100@...> wrote:

 



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hey Fella's:
>
> Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth

Gareth ; There are actualy 4 different frames with them having differences in switcher and tank. Also plastic bodied and metal. The tank is also longer than the switcher.
frank


Group: vintageHO Message: 13630 From: tebee2 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
They are almost the same, but not quite , the tank is a little longer at back and has the mounting for the rear coupler.

Tom


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Fella's:
>
> Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13631 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Hi Guys:

So i can't mount the "Switcher" superstructure on the "Tank" chassis without serious(?) modding?

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tebee2" <tebeeb@...> wrote:
>
>
> They are almost the same, but not quite , the tank is a little longer at back and has the mounting for the rear coupler.
>
> Tom
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Fella's:
> >
> > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Gareth
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13632 From: tebee2 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Doing that way you would just need to cut about an eighth of an inch off the back end and reshape it so it fits in he slot at the back of the switcher body.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys:
>
> So i can't mount the "Switcher" superstructure on the "Tank" chassis without serious(?) modding?
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tebee2" <tebeeb@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > They are almost the same, but not quite , the tank is a little longer at back and has the mounting for the rear coupler.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Fella's:
> > >
> > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Gareth
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13633 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Hi guys!

I am not sure if anyone saw my earlier post, but the early versions are identical.  The goat chassis is just equiped with an adapter to make it longer. I tore both down side by side and saw it for myself. Only the very early versions are like this. The later versions had very different chassis. 

Sean    

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:49 PM, "tebee2" <tebeeb@...> wrote:

 

Doing that way you would just need to cut about an eighth of an inch off the back end and reshape it so it fits in he slot at the back of the switcher body.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys:
>
> So i can't mount the "Switcher" superstructure on the "Tank" chassis without serious(?) modding?
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tebee2" <tebeeb@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > They are almost the same, but not quite , the tank is a little longer at back and has the mounting for the rear coupler.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Fella's:
> > >
> > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Gareth
> > >
> >
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13634 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
mostly--the tank engine may have a tailpiece on the frame that the
superstructure hooks into, but the parts are interchangeable. gj
----- Original Message -----
From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 4:20 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?


> Hey Fella's:
>
> Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and
> the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13635 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

has anyone ever seen the HOn3 version of the switcher?  They advertised it in the loose-leaf catalog in the fifties.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

Hi guys!

I am not sure if anyone saw my earlier post, but the early versions are identical.  The goat chassis is just equiped with an adapter to make it longer. I tore both down side by side and saw it for myself. Only the very early versions are like this. The later versions had very different chassis. 

Sean    

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:49 PM, "tebee2" <tebeeb@...> wrote:

 

Doing that way you would just need to cut about an eighth of an inch off the back end and reshape it so it fits in he slot at the back of the switcher body.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys:
>
> So i can't mount the "Switcher" superstructure on the "Tank" chassis without serious(?) modding?
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tebee2" <tebeeb@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > They are almost the same, but not quite , the tank is a little longer at back and has the mounting for the rear coupler.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Fella's:
> > >
> > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Gareth
> > >
> >
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13636 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
I have one Glenn
 
Have to restore it, but it is otherwise complete and all there..
 
Sean


From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 3:19:47 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

 



has anyone ever seen the HOn3 version of the switcher?  They advertised it in the loose-leaf catalog in the fifties.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

Hi guys!

I am not sure if anyone saw my earlier post, but the early versions are identical.  The goat chassis is just equiped with an adapter to make it longer. I tore both down side by side and saw it for myself. Only the very early versions are like this. The later versions had very different chassis. 

Sean    

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:49 PM, "tebee2" <tebeeb@gmail. com> wrote:

 

Doing that way you would just need to cut about an eighth of an inch off the back end and reshape it so it fits in he slot at the back of the switcher body.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys:
>
> So i can't mount the "Switcher" superstructure on the "Tank" chassis without serious(?) modding?
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tebee2" <tebeeb@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > They are almost the same, but not quite , the tank is a little longer at back and has the mounting for the rear coupler.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Fella's:
> > >
> > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Gareth
> > >
> >
>



Group: vintageHO Message: 13637 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

I wondered if it had ever actually been made.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

I have one Glenn
 
Have to restore it, but it is otherwise complete and all there..
 
Sean


From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 3:19:47 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

 



has anyone ever seen the HOn3 version of the switcher?  They advertised it in the loose-leaf catalog in the fifties.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

Hi guys!

I am not sure if anyone saw my earlier post, but the early versions are identical.  The goat chassis is just equiped with an adapter to make it longer. I tore both down side by side and saw it for myself. Only the very early versions are like this. The later versions had very different chassis. 

Sean    

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:49 PM, "tebee2" <tebeeb@gmail. com> wrote:

 

Doing that way you would just need to cut about an eighth of an inch off the back end and reshape it so it fits in he slot at the back of the switcher body.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys:
>
> So i can't mount the "Switcher" superstructure on the "Tank" chassis without serious(?) modding?
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tebee2" <tebeeb@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > They are almost the same, but not quite , the tank is a little longer at back and has the mounting for the rear coupler.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Fella's:
> > >
> > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Gareth
> > >
> >
>



Group: vintageHO Message: 13638 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
gj,
 
I will post a couple pictures in a bit...
 
Sean


From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 3:36:05 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

 



I wondered if it had ever actually been made.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

I have one Glenn
 
Have to restore it, but it is otherwise complete and all there..
 
Sean


From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 3:19:47 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

 



has anyone ever seen the HOn3 version of the switcher?  They advertised it in the loose-leaf catalog in the fifties.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

Hi guys!

I am not sure if anyone saw my earlier post, but the early versions are identical.  The goat chassis is just equiped with an adapter to make it longer. I tore both down side by side and saw it for myself. Only the very early versions are like this. The later versions had very different chassis. 

Sean    

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:49 PM, "tebee2" <tebeeb@gmail. com> wrote:

 

Doing that way you would just need to cut about an eighth of an inch off the back end and reshape it so it fits in he slot at the back of the switcher body.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys:
>
> So i can't mount the "Switcher" superstructure on the "Tank" chassis without serious(?) modding?
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tebee2" <tebeeb@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > They are almost the same, but not quite , the tank is a little longer at back and has the mounting for the rear coupler.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey Fella's:
> > >
> > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Gareth
> > >
> >
>




Group: vintageHO Message: 13639 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Glenn476 wrote:
>
>
> 
>
> has anyone ever seen the HOn3 version of the switcher? They
> advertised it in the loose-leaf catalog in the fifties. gj
I vague remember an article how to convert it to HOn3... not sure if it
was supposed to stay a 0-6-0 , maybe they changed the wheel arrangement
too.

I have a little standard gauge Consolidation, with motor in tender ,
based on a early cast MDC 0-6-0.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13640 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
The body shell is configured like a plastic Revell (The "step" in the hood
ahead of the cab and the box on the front under the grill.)

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?


Is this listing one of those very Lindsay NW-2s?



Vntg HO Great Northern Railway Caboose Brass as-is 7 Bids $32.64 2d 22h
49




________________________________
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:46:05 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?


Hi Gareth,

Yes, the Varney diecast zamac EMD switcher is an NW-2, and a highly accurate
model at that, and according to the Varney Guide, based upon the lost wax
brass NW-2 produced by Varney associate Bob Lindsay a few years earlier,
with his permission. The distinguishing identification points of an NW-2
include the half-length front radiator grill and rounded cab fore and aft
windows, according to the old Kalmbach Diesel Spotter's Guide. The SW 7/9
have a full legnth grill and flat top cab windows, among other
distinguishing characteristics.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hey Guys:
>
> It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was
> an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else
> share that notion?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13641 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Neubaum" <computersystemrebuild@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?


So far as it goes, Lionel followed that logic too. But then, a chop nose
GP-9 was also known as a GP-20, despite numerous other differences, like
rooftop fans.

I think Athearn was in that boat too, if I am not mistaken.

-Steve Neubaum


Athearn's "GP-9" was actually a passenger GP-7.

Athean's original "SW-1500" was an SW-7.

I already mentioned the Varney and Revell switchers.

Tyco Mantua's "F-9" was an F-7.

It wasn't only diesels and it wasn't only plastic. LMB offered for years
the brass NYC "H-10b" 2-8-2. Unfortunately, only one side was an H-10b.
I'm not sure what the other side was, but once the manufacturer in Japan had
the basic dimensions, they did the detail work from photos. Unfortunately,
the left and right side photos they had were of two different engines.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
Group: vintageHO Message: 13642 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Back ca. 1953 or so (the date of my catalog), the underframes themselves
were two different parts numbers. The 0-6-0 was part no. 2L100. The
0-6-0-T was 5L100. The difference appears the provision for a rear coupler
on the 0-6-0-T. The boiler was of course different, the 0-6-o-t had an
extra "pickup wire" SL149 because there was no tender for pickup, and you
needed a draft gear cover PB111 for the rear coupler.

Quoting the catalog "All other parts used in the 'yardhog' are the same as
those listed for the Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher model 2L1".
so driver spacing, valve gear, rods etc. were all interchangeable.

Can do a scan of the relevant catalog pages if you want one.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:20 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?


> Hey Fella's:
>
> Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and
> the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13643 From: Chris B Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Jim's contribution to HOSeeker shows construction of a Super Scale NW-2, 
which looks similar underneath to the ebay photos,
and it has the toolbox and calls out a mount for a Lindsay drive.

Would that make it a Super Scale then? 

Chris B.

http://hoseeker.net/superscale/superscaleemc600hpswitcher.jpg



From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 6:54:51 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

 

The body shell is configured like a plastic Revell (The "step" in the hood
ahead of the cab and the box on the front under the grill.)

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

Is this listing one of those very Lindsay NW-2s?

Vntg HO Great Northern Railway Caboose Brass as-is 7 Bids $32.64 2d 22h
49

____________ _________ _________ __
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:46:05 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

Hi Gareth,

Yes, the Varney diecast zamac EMD switcher is an NW-2, and a highly accurate
model at that, and according to the Varney Guide, based upon the lost wax
brass NW-2 produced by Varney associate Bob Lindsay a few years earlier,
with his permission. The distinguishing identification points of an NW-2
include the half-length front radiator grill and rounded cab fore and aft
windows, according to the old Kalmbach Diesel Spotter's Guide. The SW 7/9
have a full legnth grill and flat top cab windows, among other
distinguishing characteristics.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hey Guys:
>
> It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was
> an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else
> share that notion?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>


  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13644 From: Gary Woodard Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Hi Don,
 
Actually the picture sent by someone of the instructions for the Super Scale model show an SW1.
 
Gary W
 

 
Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 6:54:51 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

 

The body shell is configured like a plastic Revell (The "step" in the hood
ahead of the cab and the box on the front under the grill.)

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

Is this listing one of those very Lindsay NW-2s?

Vntg HO Great Northern Railway Caboose Brass as-is 7 Bids $32.64 2d 22h
49

____________ _________ _________ __
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:46:05 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

Hi Gareth,

Yes, the Varney diecast zamac EMD switcher is an NW-2, and a highly accurate
model at that, and according to the Varney Guide, based upon the lost wax
brass NW-2 produced by Varney associate Bob Lindsay a few years earlier,
with his permission. The distinguishing identification points of an NW-2
include the half-length front radiator grill and rounded cab fore and aft
windows, according to the old Kalmbach Diesel Spotter's Guide. The SW 7/9
have a full legnth grill and flat top cab windows, among other
distinguishing characteristics.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hey Guys:
>
> It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was
> an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else
> share that notion?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13645 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2? [1 Attachment]
The biggest difference I see on the SuperScale is the full width sandbox
across the front, not the little "toolbox" thingy.

The Superscale drawings most closely resemble an SW-1. (2nd. Diesel
Spotter's Guide page 35)

Don.

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2? [1 Attachment]


Jim's contribution to HOSeeker shows construction of a Super Scale NW-2,
which looks similar underneath to the ebay photos,
and it has the toolbox and calls out a mount for a Lindsay drive.

Would that make it a Super Scale then?

Chris B.

http://hoseeker.net/superscale/superscaleemc600hpswitcher.jpg





________________________________
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 6:54:51 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?


The body shell is configured like a plastic Revell (The "step" in the hood
ahead of the cab and the box on the front under the grill.)

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

Is this listing one of those very Lindsay NW-2s?

Vntg HO Great Northern Railway Caboose Brass as-is 7 Bids $32.64 2d 22h
49

____________ _________ _________ __
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:46:05 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

Hi Gareth,

Yes, the Varney diecast zamac EMD switcher is an NW-2, and a highly accurate
model at that, and according to the Varney Guide, based upon the lost wax
brass NW-2 produced by Varney associate Bob Lindsay a few years earlier,
with his permission. The distinguishing identification points of an NW-2
include the half-length front radiator grill and rounded cab fore and aft
windows, according to the old Kalmbach Diesel Spotter's Guide. The SW 7/9
have a full legnth grill and flat top cab windows, among other
distinguishing characteristics.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hey Guys:
>
> It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was
> an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else
> share that notion?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13646 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Thanks Guys.

Was offered a 0-6-0 Shell and wondered if it would fit on the existing 0-6-0T chassis I have. I reckon i'll wait to get a complete Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher in the future... As always you guys have been real helpful.

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
>
> Back ca. 1953 or so (the date of my catalog), the underframes themselves
> were two different parts numbers. The 0-6-0 was part no. 2L100. The
> 0-6-0-T was 5L100. The difference appears the provision for a rear coupler
> on the 0-6-0-T. The boiler was of course different, the 0-6-o-t had an
> extra "pickup wire" SL149 because there was no tender for pickup, and you
> needed a draft gear cover PB111 for the rear coupler.
>
> Quoting the catalog "All other parts used in the 'yardhog' are the same as
> those listed for the Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher model 2L1".
> so driver spacing, valve gear, rods etc. were all interchangeable.
>
> Can do a scan of the relevant catalog pages if you want one.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:20 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
>
>
> > Hey Fella's:
> >
> > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and
> > the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Gareth
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13647 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
We're talking about one that came from the factory in HOn3, as an 0-6-0

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same
Frame?


> Glenn476 wrote:
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> has anyone ever seen the HOn3 version of the switcher? They
>> advertised it in the loose-leaf catalog in the fifties. gj
> I vague remember an article how to convert it to HOn3... not sure if it
> was supposed to stay a 0-6-0 , maybe they changed the wheel arrangement
> too.
>
> I have a little standard gauge Consolidation, with motor in tender ,
> based on a early cast MDC 0-6-0.
>
> Gerold
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13648 From: jim heckard Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Super Scale NW-2, Lindsay Sw-7?
          I just came in from a meeting and found out I have to go elsewhere tonight. Saw the discussion going on and wanted to pass along these pictures out of my collection.
 
    Chris B showed pictures from my Super Scale 600 HP switcher  ( SW-1 ? ). This first picture I am sending is the Super Scale 1000 HP switcher which Super Scale calls an NW-2.
 
   Next two pictures are of a mint kit for a Lindsay 1000 HP switcher which I think might be an SW-7.
 
   I'm no expert on identifying the real thing. I can only relate what the company called them or sold them as. It will be up to those who ID the real thing to make that judgment..
 
                                                                  Jim H
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13649 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Nope, standard gauge though I know about the NG.

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
>
> We're talking about one that came from the factory in HOn3, as an 0-6-0
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same
> Frame?
>
>
> > Glenn476 wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> has anyone ever seen the HOn3 version of the switcher? They
> >> advertised it in the loose-leaf catalog in the fifties. gj
> > I vague remember an article how to convert it to HOn3... not sure if it
> > was supposed to stay a 0-6-0 , maybe they changed the wheel arrangement
> > too.
> >
> > I have a little standard gauge Consolidation, with motor in tender ,
> > based on a early cast MDC 0-6-0.
> >
> > Gerold
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13650 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Super Scale NW-2, Lindsay Sw-7?
BEE you tee full, Jim. Lovely kit. Can I ask what that set you back?

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> I just came in from a meeting and found out I have to go elsewhere tonight. Saw the discussion going on and wanted to pass along these pictures out of my collection.
>
> Chris B showed pictures from my Super Scale 600 HP switcher ( SW-1 ? ). This first picture I am sending is the Super Scale 1000 HP switcher which Super Scale calls an NW-2.
>
> Next two pictures are of a mint kit for a Lindsay 1000 HP switcher which I think might be an SW-7.
>
> I'm no expert on identifying the real thing. I can only relate what the company called them or sold them as. It will be up to those who ID the real thing to make that judgment..
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13651 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
If it were me.. I would still take the shell..
 
Sean


From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 8:42:59 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

 

Thanks Guys.

Was offered a 0-6-0 Shell and wondered if it would fit on the existing 0-6-0T chassis I have. I reckon i'll wait to get a complete Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher in the future... As always you guys have been real helpful.

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
>
> Back ca. 1953 or so (the date of my catalog), the underframes themselves
> were two different parts numbers. The 0-6-0 was part no. 2L100. The
> 0-6-0-T was 5L100. The difference appears the provision for a rear coupler
> on the 0-6-0-T. The boiler was of course different, the 0-6-o-t had an
> extra "pickup wire" SL149 because there was no tender for pickup, and you
> needed a draft gear cover PB111 for the rear coupler.
>
> Quoting the catalog "All other parts used in the 'yardhog' are the same as
> those listed for the Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher model 2L1".
> so driver spacing, valve gear, rods etc. were all interchangeable.
>
> Can do a scan of the relevant catalog pages if you want one.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@ ...
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> Owner
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:20 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
>
>
> > Hey Fella's:
> >
> > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and
> > the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Gareth
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13652 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
In the hopes of later getting the right chassis Sean?

-Gareth



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
>
> If it were me.. I would still take the shell..
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 8:42:59 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
>
>  
> Thanks Guys.
>
> Was offered a 0-6-0 Shell and wondered if it would fit on the existing 0-6-0T chassis I have. I reckon i'll wait to get a complete Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher in the future... As always you guys have been real helpful.
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Back ca. 1953 or so (the date of my catalog), the underframes themselves
> > were two different parts numbers. The 0-6-0 was part no. 2L100. The
> > 0-6-0-T was 5L100. The difference appears the provision for a rear coupler
> > on the 0-6-0-T. The boiler was of course different, the 0-6-o-t had an
> > extra "pickup wire" SL149 because there was no tender for pickup, and you
> > needed a draft gear cover PB111 for the rear coupler.
> >
> > Quoting the catalog "All other parts used in the 'yardhog' are the same as
> > those listed for the Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher model 2L1".
> > so driver spacing, valve gear, rods etc. were all interchangeable.
> >
> > Can do a scan of the relevant catalog pages if you want one.
> >
> > Don
> >
> > Don Dellmann
> > don.dellmann@ ...
> > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> > Owner
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...>
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:20 AM
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
> >
> >
> > > Hey Fella's:
> > >
> > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and
> > > the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Gareth
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13653 From: Chris B Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: layout progress report, ran first run with old Athearn sw chassi
Jim, that's a nice model, whatever it is compared to whatever they called it.  I'm going to audit the class, since I turned in the wrong homework <g>

Since my prototype line, the W&OD, didn't have either one, but made do with GE 44 and 70 ton, Whitcomb 56 ton, Baldwin CNR 65 ton, and leased C&O S-2s, I can enjoy learning about them, but don't plan on rostering one.  I've got enough work just getting all of those together.

I just came up from downstairs, almost two years to the day I started benchwork, after taking video of the first run of an bare Athearn diesel switcher chassis making a maiden voyage on the layout. NW-2, SW 7, I have no idea, the plastic shell is packed away, but I love the sintered iron wheels for traction, and the welding light headlight and sparking wheels make a lights out video spectacular.

 Four levels built, but only two with track so far, but  in a 14 by 14 room, with an extension through the wall into the laundry.  The W&OD was a double track line, so far I've got double track around 3 sides of the room, with an steep grade between levels that will eventually match the real 4% grade on the prototype.
With double track making a long wrap around loop, it takes the old Athearn chassis about two minutes to complete the circuit of about 150' of track.

This cheap flex track is old lifelike steel rail I paid $1 a piece for, it will take over 100 36" sections to make the basic main line on all four levels. 
It's just a stand in for the final truscale and tenshodo, but I want to lay the track plan and fix all the grades before I take a chance on installing all that vintage track.
That will probably take another year, but at least I got to get out the track tools and solder instead of bolting  lumber together.

So here's to progress, it's can be so low, but the milestones are pretty sweet.

Chris B.


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 9:07:17 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Super Scale NW-2, Lindsay Sw-7? [3 Attachments]

 

          I just came in from a meeting and found out I have to go elsewhere tonight. Saw the discussion going on and wanted to pass along these pictures out of my collection.
 
    Chris B showed pictures from my Super Scale 600 HP switcher  ( SW-1 ? ). This first picture I am sending is the Super Scale 1000 HP switcher which Super Scale calls an NW-2.
 
   Next two pictures are of a mint kit for a Lindsay 1000 HP switcher which I think might be an SW-7.
 
   I'm no expert on identifying the real thing. I can only relate what the company called them or sold them as. It will be up to those who ID the real thing to make that judgment..
 
                                                                  Jim H

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13654 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
For sure.. I have a 5-gallon bin dedicated to several of each of the MDC 0-6-0 & 0-6-0T as well as a couple others in there too...  I love those two locos myself. Great one to super detail and mess around with.
 
Sean


From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 9:59:03 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

 

In the hopes of later getting the right chassis Sean?

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
>
> If it were me.. I would still take the shell..
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: rcjge <jgpedwards@ ...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 8:42:59 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
>
>  
> Thanks Guys.
>
> Was offered a 0-6-0 Shell and wondered if it would fit on the existing 0-6-0T chassis I have. I reckon i'll wait to get a complete Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher in the future... As always you guys have been real helpful.
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Back ca. 1953 or so (the date of my catalog), the underframes themselves
> > were two different parts numbers. The 0-6-0 was part no. 2L100. The
> > 0-6-0-T was 5L100. The difference appears the provision for a rear coupler
> > on the 0-6-0-T. The boiler was of course different, the 0-6-o-t had an
> > extra "pickup wire" SL149 because there was no tender for pickup, and you
> > needed a draft gear cover PB111 for the rear coupler.
> >
> > Quoting the catalog "All other parts used in the 'yardhog' are the same as
> > those listed for the Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher model 2L1".
> > so driver spacing, valve gear, rods etc. were all interchangeable.
> >
> > Can do a scan of the relevant catalog pages if you want one.
> >
> > Don
> >
> > Don Dellmann
> > don.dellmann@ ...
> > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> > Owner
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...>
> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:20 AM
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
> >
> >
> > > Hey Fella's:
> > >
> > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and
> > > the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Gareth
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13655 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
I posts crossed in the mail, you'll I came to the same conclusion.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?


Hi Don,

Actually the picture sent by someone of the instructions for the Super Scale
model show an SW1.

Gary W


Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to
answer life's two most important questions!




________________________________
From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 6:54:51 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?


The body shell is configured like a plastic Revell (The "step" in the hood
ahead of the cab and the box on the front under the grill.)

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

Is this listing one of those very Lindsay NW-2s?

Vntg HO Great Northern Railway Caboose Brass as-is 7 Bids $32.64 2d 22h
49

____________ _________ _________ __
From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 3:46:05 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

Hi Gareth,

Yes, the Varney diecast zamac EMD switcher is an NW-2, and a highly accurate
model at that, and according to the Varney Guide, based upon the lost wax
brass NW-2 produced by Varney associate Bob Lindsay a few years earlier,
with his permission. The distinguishing identification points of an NW-2
include the half-length front radiator grill and rounded cab fore and aft
windows, according to the old Kalmbach Diesel Spotter's Guide. The SW 7/9
have a full legnth grill and flat top cab windows, among other
distinguishing characteristics.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
>
> Hey Guys:
>
> It's been my conviction for some time that the Varney Diesel Switcher was
> an NW-2. I've seen people on ebay calling it an SW-7 or 9. Anyone else
> share that notion?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13656 From: chianrsteele Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2? [1 Attachment]
Hi Don,

The SW-1 is the shorter Switcher with the full length sandbox (it was actually a sandbox/toolbox combination). This had an EMC (later EMD) 600 horsepower engine. The most common giveaway is the toolbox cum sandbox and its short length. These were used as switchers in smaller yards and as road locomotives on light-railed branch lines. The CB&Q used an SW-1 between Sterling, Colorado and Cheyenne, Wyoming for many years. Why? because there was a trestle that had a light axle loading that only the SW-1 could safely cross. The Great Western Railway in Colorado used SW-1's 61, 62 and 63 for many, many years as road power between Eaton, Loveland and Longmont, Colorado. I ran my first one, which was one of the ex-CB&Q's from the Sterling line in about 1980. It had a manual Series/Parallel switch inside the electrical compartment. This was like a manual gearshift, as Series was used for lugging and parallel was used for speed. Oh yes, the ride like an old lumber truck.

The NW-2 was a 1,000 hp switcher mad about the same time as the SW-1. There are a few differences in the way that the control stand works. The biggest thing is that the NW-2's were not MU (Multiple Unit) capable. These beasts also ride like old lumber trucks and have larger engines than the SW-1's. They were very popular as switch engines and didn't to too much road work. I ran some ex-BN/Frisco NW-2's as well. These are distinguishable by their length and their half-height radiators, like the SW-1's.

The other locomotives are really known to the diesel afficionados are the SW-7's and SW-1200's. These have to do with engine configuration, horsepower and MU capability. I ran SW-1200's on the Great Western in Colorado (there was only one left by the time that I got there). The GW 121 and 122 were MU-Capable and were their "Big" diesel power during the ownership by the Sugar Company. They also had the usual EMD Switcher trucks, but had two stacks and Full height radiators, but at 25 mph, the ride is not that much of a factor. Besides, for a short line, the GW had darned good track.

So there are the answers as to what the beasties are. The Lindsey 1000 hp switcher is an NW-2. The SS 600 hp is an SW-1. No doubt, no hits, no runs, no errors.

Rick Steele
Group: vintageHO Message: 13657 From: jbark76 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Yes, the Great Northern switcher in the auction is a Lindsay. Super Scale made kits for both 600 HP SW-1s and 1000HP SW-?s, but they were stamped brass with white metal parts. (I would call them details, but the Super Scale models are much simpler than the Lindsay.) Super Scale models were designed for the Lindsay drive.
-Jeff-


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> Is this listing one of those very Lindsay NW-2s?
>
>
>
> Vntg HO Great Northern Railway Caboose Brass as-is 7 Bids $32.64 2d 22h 49
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13658 From: rcjge Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: RMC 1978
Hey Gents:

Does anyone have a complete set of RMC from 1978? There was a Kitbash article from an issue that year on converting a Athearn F-7 to an FP-7. I was hoping someone here might have the issue it was in? I can't find a searchable database that goes back beyond 1990. Can anyone help with that so I can pinpoint which issue.

Thanks so much,
Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13659 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/14/2010
Subject: Re: RMC 1978
yes--contact me off-list. glenn476 at 4fast dot net gj
----- Original Message -----
From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 5:23 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] RMC 1978


> Hey Gents:
>
> Does anyone have a complete set of RMC from 1978? There was a Kitbash
> article from an issue that year on converting a Athearn F-7 to an FP-7. I
> was hoping someone here might have the issue it was in? I can't find a
> searchable database that goes back beyond 1990. Can anyone help with that
> so I can pinpoint which issue.
>
> Thanks so much,
> Gareth
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13660 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: RMC 1978
rcjge wrote:
>
>
> Hey Gents:
>
> Does anyone have a complete set of RMC from 1978? There was a Kitbash
> article from an issue that year on converting a Athearn F-7 to an
> FP-7. I was hoping someone here might have the issue it was in? I
> can't find a searchable database that goes back beyond 1990. Can
> anyone help with that so I can pinpoint which issue.
>
> Thanks so much,
> Gareth
>
> _
According to my spreadsheet I should have a complete year... let me know
which issue. Will need two or three days to dig it out.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13661 From: Chris B Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?
Thanks.
Chris B.
From: "jbark76" <jbark76@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 03:52:26 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney SW 7/9 or NW2?

 

Yes, the Great Northern switcher in the auction is a Lindsay. Super Scale made kits for both 600 HP SW-1s and 1000HP SW-?s, but they were stamped brass with white metal parts. (I would call them details, but the Super Scale models are much simpler than the Lindsay.) Super Scale models were designed for the Lindsay drive.
-Jeff-

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Is this listing one of those very Lindsay NW-2s?
>
>
>
> Vntg HO Great Northern Railway Caboose Brass as-is 7 Bids $32.64 2d 22h 49
>
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13662 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Super Scale NW-2, Lindsay Sw-7?
Gareth,
   
        I can't remember what I paid for the Lindsay mint 1000 HP switcher kit. It was bought in the late 80's from a Mr. Pete Ellis of Montana who has since passed on. Mr. Ellis was a vintage HO collector  who had an extremely large collection and was very knowledgeable about the history of HO companies. Thank goodness a lot of that knowledge was saved in " The Reporting Mark" newsletter for the now defunct HO Scale Collectors and History-SIG.
 
   The kit is pristine as is the box. Other than opening it to show off the parts none have ever been taken out of the box that I know of.
 
                             Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: rcjge
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 9:46 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Super Scale NW-2, Lindsay Sw-7?

 

BEE you tee full, Jim. Lovely kit. Can I ask what that set you back?

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> I just came in from a meeting and found out I have to go elsewhere tonight. Saw the discussion going on and wanted to pass along these pictures out of my collection.
>
> Chris B showed pictures from my Super Scale 600 HP switcher ( SW-1 ? ). This first picture I am sending is the Super Scale 1000 HP switcher which Super Scale calls an NW-2.
>
> Next two pictures are of a mint kit for a Lindsay 1000 HP switcher which I think might be an SW-7.
>
> I'm no expert on identifying the real thing. I can only relate what the company called them or sold them as. It will be up to those who ID the real thing to make that judgment..
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13663 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: layout progress report, ran first run with old Athearn sw chassi

Chris B,
 
         My collection is based on what the manufacturer called the engines maybe not what they should be in real life. You will find many items are  mislabeled and I can't understand why the right designations were not put on them. Probably because what some produced were not exact copies of the real thing and they chose a designation that was the closest .
 
    I have to join your audit class and sit back to let others better qualified state what the full size engine would be.
 
    Layout sounds like it's going great. Time spent and completion is sometimes irrelevant. Enjoyment and satisfaction of what you are doing are the important parts.
 
                                                              Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] layout progress report, ran first run with old Athearn sw chassis [9 Attachments]

 

Jim, that's a nice model, whatever it is compared to whatever they called it.  I'm going to audit the class, since I turned in the wrong homework <g>

Since my prototype line, the W&OD, didn't have either one, but made do with GE 44 and 70 ton, Whitcomb 56 ton, Baldwin CNR 65 ton, and leased C&O S-2s, I can enjoy learning about them, but don't plan on rostering one.  I've got enough work just getting all of those together.

I just came up from downstairs, almost two years to the day I started benchwork, after taking video of the first run of an bare Athearn diesel switcher chassis making a maiden voyage on the layout. NW-2, SW 7, I have no idea, the plastic shell is packed away, but I love the sintered iron wheels for traction, and the welding light headlight and sparking wheels make a lights out video spectacular.

 Four levels built, but only two with track so far, but  in a 14 by 14 room, with an extension through the wall into the laundry.  The W&OD was a double track line, so far I've got double track around 3 sides of the room, with an steep grade between levels that will eventually match the real 4% grade on the prototype.
With double track making a long wrap around loop, it takes the old Athearn chassis about two minutes to complete the circuit of about 150' of track.

This cheap flex track is old lifelike steel rail I paid $1 a piece for, it will take over 100 36" sections to make the basic main line on all four levels. 
It's just a stand in for the final truscale and tenshodo, but I want to lay the track plan and fix all the grades before I take a chance on installing all that vintage track.
That will probably take another year, but at least I got to get out the track tools and solder instead of bolting  lumber together.

So here's to progress, it's can be so low, but the milestones are pretty sweet.

Chris B.


From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 9:07:17 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Super Scale NW-2, Lindsay Sw-7? [3 Attachments]

 

          I just came in from a meeting and found out I have to go elsewhere tonight. Saw the discussion going on and wanted to pass along these pictures out of my collection.
 
    Chris B showed pictures from my Super Scale 600 HP switcher  ( SW-1 ? ). This first picture I am sending is the Super Scale 1000 HP switcher which Super Scale calls an NW-2.
 
   Next two pictures are of a mint kit for a Lindsay 1000 HP switcher which I think might be an SW-7.
 
   I'm no expert on identifying the real thing. I can only relate what the company called them or sold them as. It will be up to those who ID the real thing to make that judgment..
 
                                                                  Jim H

Group: vintageHO Message: 13664 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: MDC 0-6-0
 
 
Gareth,
 
     Since you have mentioned about MDC / Roundhouse 0-6-0's I thought you might like these pics. This was a junker / basket case item I received with other things I bought. Since it didn't fit in my vintage collection I decided to have fun rebuilding and modifying it.
 
    It started out the basic MDC 0-6-0 design with oil tender and I changed it to an 0-6-0 Camelback with coal tender. No real design behind the modification. Modelers license shall we say.
 
                                                            Jim H 
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13665 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Brass Varney made in 1936 Triplex
          I'm not sure if anyone is still following the adventures of Tezz55 of Australia who is selling the so called Varney made in 1936 Triplex. He now has changed his description. The so called Email reply he received from Lee English / Bowser stating English has the exact same model has disappeared and the seller now says English has retracted his backing for this engine. I wonder if that could be because some people had asked Lee English as to the truth of the message the seller posted and now ( English ) has asked Tezz55 to remove it.
 
   However the seller is now  listing some one from PA ( B>>>>>>>r ) as having one for proof. Nothing showing saying a VARNEY made in 1936 Triplex just the same engine. This is like watching a comedy unfold that isn't all that funny.
 
                                                                          Jim H
 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13666 From: Wobbly913 Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Brass Varney made in 1936 Triplex
Lee English has now been contacted both on this group and Yardbird and was sent the information from ebay. He may also have received inquiries from other modelrs not on these group seeking clarification.
I would wonder at this point if Lee English sent  Tazz a note in which he told him to stop misrepresenting himself.
 
Wobbly913

--- On Mon, 3/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Brass Varney made in 1936 Triplex
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, March 15, 2010, 10:40 AM



          I'm not sure if anyone is still following the adventures of Tezz55 of Australia who is selling the so called Varney made in 1936 Triplex. He now has changed his description. The so called Email reply he received from Lee English / Bowser stating English has the exact same model has disappeared and the seller now says English has retracted his backing for this engine. I wonder if that could be because some people had asked Lee English as to the truth of the message the seller posted and now ( English ) has asked Tezz55 to remove it.
 
   However the seller is now  listing some one from PA ( B>>>>>>>r ) as having one for proof. Nothing showing saying a VARNEY made in 1936 Triplex just the same engine. This is like watching a comedy unfold that isn't all that funny.
 
                                                                          Jim H
 
 



Group: vintageHO Message: 13667 From: rcjge Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
Hi Jim:

Nice pics! I was wondering since there are versions of the RH 0-6-0's both regular and tank made in the 50's why you wouldn't consider them Vintage. I think of "Vintage" as being a moving target. I have some Tyco pieces from the 60's/70's I consider Vintage now, and oh yeah modellers license is also called inspiration! ;-)

best,
Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Gareth,
>
> Since you have mentioned about MDC / Roundhouse 0-6-0's I thought you might like these pics. This was a junker / basket case item I received with other things I bought. Since it didn't fit in my vintage collection I decided to have fun rebuilding and modifying it.
>
> It started out the basic MDC 0-6-0 design with oil tender and I changed it to an 0-6-0 Camelback with coal tender. No real design behind the modification. Modelers license shall we say.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13668 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
   Gareth,
 
    This was a newer plastic ( boiler,cab and tender body.) version. Without upsetting anyone the only MDC /Roundhouse item I would consider for my vintage collection would be the first run all metal version. ( Sean I'll take yours ) I don't know what year an HO train item is considered vintage. And while some might consider this vintage my time frame is from 1936 to 1977 for my collection. Matter of choice not a specific.
 
                                                                Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: rcjge
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:25 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: MDC 0-6-0

 

Hi Jim:

Nice pics! I was wondering since there are versions of the RH 0-6-0's both regular and tank made in the 50's why you wouldn't consider them Vintage. I think of "Vintage" as being a moving target. I have some Tyco pieces from the 60's/70's I consider Vintage now, and oh yeah modellers license is also called inspiration! ;-)

best,
Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
>
>
> Gareth,
>
> Since you have mentioned about MDC / Roundhouse 0-6-0's I thought you might like these pics. This was a junker / basket case item I received with other things I bought. Since it didn't fit in my vintage collection I decided to have fun rebuilding and modifying it.
>
> It started out the basic MDC 0-6-0 design with oil tender and I changed it to an 0-6-0 Camelback with coal tender. No real design behind the modification. Modelers license shall we say.
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13669 From: rcjge Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
hey Jim:

Thats a pretty fair range I think... I'd said the metal Roundhouses are Vintage but not the later plastic ones. Kinda the same with Tyco/Mantua don't you think?

-Gareth



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Gareth,
>
> This was a newer plastic ( boiler,cab and tender body.) version. Without upsetting anyone the only MDC /Roundhouse item I would consider for my vintage collection would be the first run all metal version. ( Sean I'll take yours ) I don't know what year an HO train item is considered vintage. And while some might consider this vintage my time frame is from 1936 to 1977 for my collection. Matter of choice not a specific.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rcjge
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:25 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: MDC 0-6-0
>
>
>
> Hi Jim:
>
> Nice pics! I was wondering since there are versions of the RH 0-6-0's both regular and tank made in the 50's why you wouldn't consider them Vintage. I think of "Vintage" as being a moving target. I have some Tyco pieces from the 60's/70's I consider Vintage now, and oh yeah modellers license is also called inspiration! ;-)
>
> best,
> Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Gareth,
> >
> > Since you have mentioned about MDC / Roundhouse 0-6-0's I thought you might like these pics. This was a junker / basket case item I received with other things I bought. Since it didn't fit in my vintage collection I decided to have fun rebuilding and modifying it.
> >
> > It started out the basic MDC 0-6-0 design with oil tender and I changed it to an 0-6-0 Camelback with coal tender. No real design behind the modification. Modelers license shall we say.
> >
> > Jim H
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13670 From: rcjge Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Sean:

Do you have a chassis for the Metal 0-6-0 Switcher (NOT the TANK)you'd part with and if so at what price?

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
>
> For sure.. I have a 5-gallon bin dedicated to several of each of the MDC 0-6-0 & 0-6-0T as well as a couple others in there too...  I love those two locos myself. Great one to super detail and mess around with.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 9:59:03 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
>
>  
> In the hopes of later getting the right chassis Sean?
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > If it were me.. I would still take the shell..
> >
> > Sean
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: rcjge <jgpedwards@ ...>
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 8:42:59 PM
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
> >
> >  
> > Thanks Guys.
> >
> > Was offered a 0-6-0 Shell and wondered if it would fit on the existing 0-6-0T chassis I have. I reckon i'll wait to get a complete Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher in the future... As always you guys have been real helpful.
> >
> > -Gareth
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Back ca. 1953 or so (the date of my catalog), the underframes themselves
> > > were two different parts numbers. The 0-6-0 was part no. 2L100. The
> > > 0-6-0-T was 5L100. The difference appears the provision for a rear coupler
> > > on the 0-6-0-T. The boiler was of course different, the 0-6-o-t had an
> > > extra "pickup wire" SL149 because there was no tender for pickup, and you
> > > needed a draft gear cover PB111 for the rear coupler.
> > >
> > > Quoting the catalog "All other parts used in the 'yardhog' are the same as
> > > those listed for the Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher model 2L1".
> > > so driver spacing, valve gear, rods etc. were all interchangeable.
> > >
> > > Can do a scan of the relevant catalog pages if you want one.
> > >
> > > Don
> > >
> > > Don Dellmann
> > > don.dellmann@ ...
> > > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> > > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> > > Owner
> > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...>
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:20 AM
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey Fella's:
> > > >
> > > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and
> > > > the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Gareth
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13671 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0 [2 Attachments]
Smooth job did you build the cab?   Roger Aultman
 
 
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 10:19 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] MDC 0-6-0 [2 Attachments]

 

 
 
Gareth,
 
     Since you have mentioned about MDC / Roundhouse 0-6-0's I thought you might like these pics. This was a junker / basket case item I received with other things I bought. Since it didn't fit in my vintage collection I decided to have fun rebuilding and modifying it.
 
    It started out the basic MDC 0-6-0 design with oil tender and I changed it to an 0-6-0 Camelback with coal tender. No real design behind the modification. Modelers license shall we say.
 
                                                            Jim H 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13672 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Hi gareth,
 
Now you are pulling at my heart strings Gareth..
 
I may as I know I have at least 4-5 torn apart in in the clear plastic 5-gallon bin.. I might even have more. I think I even have 3-4 on the top shelf of my laundry room storage shelves - sort of the limbo area between - should I list - should I fix - or should I put in the 5-gal bin, virtually never to be heard from again... I know I have a couple I wired for headlights too.. I added a smoke unit to one.
 
To answer your earlier question...I do have one Lindsay Stubby, but it is not on the auction block, nor do I plan to sell it any time soon... Nothing short of $80 to $100 would convince me to part with it, if I were to consider selling it.
 
Here it is, I did not detail it, but someone did a very nice job:
 
 
Sean


From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 5:15:22 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

 

Sean:

Do you have a chassis for the Metal 0-6-0 Switcher (NOT the TANK)you'd part with and if so at what price?

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
>
> For sure.. I have a 5-gallon bin dedicated to several of each of the MDC 0-6-0 & 0-6-0T as well as a couple others in there too...  I love those two locos myself. Great one to super detail and mess around with.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: rcjge <jgpedwards@ ...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 9:59:03 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
>
>  
> In the hopes of later getting the right chassis Sean?
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > If it were me.. I would still take the shell..
> >
> > Sean
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: rcjge <jgpedwards@ ...>
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 8:42:59 PM
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
> >
> >  
> > Thanks Guys.
> >
> > Was offered a 0-6-0 Shell and wondered if it would fit on the existing 0-6-0T chassis I have. I reckon i'll wait to get a complete Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher in the future... As always you guys have been real helpful.
> >
> > -Gareth
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Back ca. 1953 or so (the date of my catalog), the underframes themselves
> > > were two different parts numbers. The 0-6-0 was part no. 2L100. The
> > > 0-6-0-T was 5L100. The difference appears the provision for a rear coupler
> > > on the 0-6-0-T. The boiler was of course different, the 0-6-o-t had an
> > > extra "pickup wire" SL149 because there was no tender for pickup, and you
> > > needed a draft gear cover PB111 for the rear coupler.
> > >
> > > Quoting the catalog "All other parts used in the 'yardhog' are the same as
> > > those listed for the Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher model 2L1".
> > > so driver spacing, valve gear, rods etc. were all interchangeable.
> > >
> > > Can do a scan of the relevant catalog pages if you want one.
> > >
> > > Don
> > >
> > > Don Dellmann
> > > don.dellmann@ ...
> > > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> > > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> > > Owner
> > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...>
> > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:20 AM
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey Fella's:
> > > >
> > > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and
> > > > the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Gareth
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13673 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
I ended up with a plastic-bodied 0-6-0T MDC 20 some years ago.
When I decided to start restoring engines, I found a metal body (took some re-work of frame/boiler at the rear) to put on it.
Now I have a metal bodied 0-6-0T MDC, and that's the way I want it.

Dave


> Gareth,
>
> This was a newer plastic ( boiler,cab and tender body.) version. Without upsetting anyone the only MDC /Roundhouse item I would consider for my vintage collection would be the first run all metal version. ( Sean I'll take yours ) I don't know what year an HO train item is considered vintage. And while some might consider this vintage my time frame is from 1936 to 1977 for my collection. Matter of choice not a specific.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rcjge
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:25 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: MDC 0-6-0
>
>
>
> Hi Jim:
>
> Nice pics! I was wondering since there are versions of the RH 0-6-0's both regular and tank made in the 50's why you wouldn't consider them Vintage. I think of "Vintage" as being a moving target. I have some Tyco pieces from the 60's/70's I consider Vintage now, and oh yeah modellers license is also called inspiration! ;-)
>
> best,
> Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Gareth,
> >
> > Since you have mentioned about MDC / Roundhouse 0-6-0's I thought you might like these pics. This was a junker / basket case item I received with other things I bought. Since it didn't fit in my vintage collection I decided to have fun rebuilding and modifying it.
> >
> > It started out the basic MDC 0-6-0 design with oil tender and I changed it to an 0-6-0 Camelback with coal tender. No real design behind the modification. Modelers license shall we say.
> >
> > Jim H
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13674 From: rcjge Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
hey Sean:

I emailed the fella who offered me the metal RH 0-6-0 shell, to see if he still has it. I'd need a complete chassis from you, without the motor.
Email me direct about this, ok?

As to the "Stubby" my tracking spreadsheet puts the average evilbay price at $72.40 so $80 isn't out of the question. Keep ypur eye's open for a Chassis on it's own ok? I have a project in mind using another shell.

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
>
> Hi gareth,
>
> Now you are pulling at my heart strings Gareth..
>
> I may as I know I have at least 4-5 torn apart in in the clear plastic 5-gallon bin.. I might even have more. I think I even have 3-4 on the top shelf of my laundry room storage shelves - sort of the limbo area between - should I list - should I fix - or should I put in the 5-gal bin, virtually never to be heard from again... I know I have a couple I wired for headlights too.. I added a smoke unit to one.
>
> To answer your earlier question...I do have one Lindsay Stubby, but it is not on the auction block, nor do I plan to sell it any time soon... Nothing short of $80 to $100 would convince me to part with it, if I were to consider selling it.
>
> Here it is, I did not detail it, but someone did a very nice job:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4388399138/in/set-72157623384254115/
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 5:15:22 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
>
>  
> Sean:
>
> Do you have a chassis for the Metal 0-6-0 Switcher (NOT the TANK)you'd part with and if so at what price?
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > For sure.. I have a 5-gallon bin dedicated to several of each of the MDC 0-6-0 & 0-6-0T as well as a couple others in there too...  I love those two locos myself. Great one to super detail and mess around with.
> >
> > Sean
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: rcjge <jgpedwards@ ...>
> > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 9:59:03 PM
> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
> >
> >  
> > In the hopes of later getting the right chassis Sean?
> >
> > -Gareth
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > If it were me.. I would still take the shell..
> > >
> > > Sean
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: rcjge <jgpedwards@ ...>
> > > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> > > Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 8:42:59 PM
> > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
> > >
> > >  
> > > Thanks Guys.
> > >
> > > Was offered a 0-6-0 Shell and wondered if it would fit on the existing 0-6-0T chassis I have. I reckon i'll wait to get a complete Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher in the future... As always you guys have been real helpful.
> > >
> > > -Gareth
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Back ca. 1953 or so (the date of my catalog), the underframes themselves
> > > > were two different parts numbers. The 0-6-0 was part no. 2L100. The
> > > > 0-6-0-T was 5L100. The difference appears the provision for a rear coupler
> > > > on the 0-6-0-T. The boiler was of course different, the 0-6-o-t had an
> > > > extra "pickup wire" SL149 because there was no tender for pickup, and you
> > > > needed a draft gear cover PB111 for the rear coupler.
> > > >
> > > > Quoting the catalog "All other parts used in the 'yardhog' are the same as
> > > > those listed for the Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher model 2L1".
> > > > so driver spacing, valve gear, rods etc. were all interchangeable.
> > > >
> > > > Can do a scan of the relevant catalog pages if you want one.
> > > >
> > > > Don
> > > >
> > > > Don Dellmann
> > > > don.dellmann@ ...
> > > > http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> > > > http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> > > > Owner
> > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...>
> > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogro u ps.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:20 AM
> > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hey Fella's:
> > > > >
> > > > > Can anyone tell me if the frames for the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher and
> > > > > the 0-6-0 Tank Switcher are the same?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Gareth
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13675 From: jim heckard Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
Roger,
 
    I built that MDC Camelback engine over 10 years ago. I didn't build the cab for it. It came out of my junk box of parts. I have no idea now who made the cab.
 
   The one bad thing about the camelback design I found out later deals with the fiber piece between the brushes on the original MDC motor. The back of the boiler I made is a little to small. When you assembly it, after a little time, the fiber bends and can cause the brushes not to make contact just right. Not a short. You have to take the body off and reverse that piece of fiber to get it to run proper again. I never tried to make any permanent change to correct the problem. Other then that it runs great.
 
                                                   Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MDC 0-6-0

 

Smooth job did you build the cab?   Roger Aultman
 
 
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 10:19 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] MDC 0-6-0 [2 Attachments]

 

 
 
Gareth,
 
     Since you have mentioned about MDC / Roundhouse 0-6-0's I thought you might like these pics. This was a junker / basket case item I received with other things I bought. Since it didn't fit in my vintage collection I decided to have fun rebuilding and modifying it.
 
    It started out the basic MDC 0-6-0 design with oil tender and I changed it to an 0-6-0 Camelback with coal tender. No real design behind the modification. Modelers license shall we say.
 
                                                            Jim H 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13676 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: MDC 0-6-0
Great use of extra parts. Roger


----- Original Message -----
From: jim heckard
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MDC 0-6-0



Roger,

I built that MDC Camelback engine over 10 years ago. I didn't build the
cab for it. It came out of my junk box of parts. I have no idea now who made
the cab.

The one bad thing about the camelback design I found out later deals with
the fiber piece between the brushes on the original MDC motor. The back of
the boiler I made is a little to small. When you assembly it, after a little
time, the fiber bends and can cause the brushes not to make contact just
right. Not a short. You have to take the body off and reverse that piece of
fiber to get it to run proper again. I never tried to make any permanent
change to correct the problem. Other then that it runs great.

Jim H


----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Aultman
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MDC 0-6-0



Smooth job did you build the cab? Roger Aultman


From: jim heckard
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 10:19 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] MDC 0-6-0 [2 Attachments]





Gareth,

Since you have mentioned about MDC / Roundhouse 0-6-0's I thought you
might like these pics. This was a junker / basket case item I received with
other things I bought. Since it didn't fit in my vintage collection I
decided to have fun rebuilding and modifying it.

It started out the basic MDC 0-6-0 design with oil tender and I changed
it to an 0-6-0 Camelback with coal tender. No real design behind the
modification. Modelers license shall we say.

Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13677 From: rcjge Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: RMC 1978
Hi Gerold:

Stand to for a sec, good Sir, I think Glenn has it! I'll let you know.

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
>
> rcjge wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hey Gents:
> >
> > Does anyone have a complete set of RMC from 1978? There was a Kitbash
> > article from an issue that year on converting a Athearn F-7 to an
> > FP-7. I was hoping someone here might have the issue it was in? I
> > can't find a searchable database that goes back beyond 1990. Can
> > anyone help with that so I can pinpoint which issue.
> >
> > Thanks so much,
> > Gareth
> >
> > _
> According to my spreadsheet I should have a complete year... let me know
> which issue. Will need two or three days to dig it out.
>
> Gerold
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13678 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/15/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?

Ok Guys,

 

as promiced, the following is a link to a picture of both 060 & 060t chassis side by side... The only difference being the screw mounted extension as I stated earlier:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4436587629/in/set-72157623505028425

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4436587589/in/set-72157623505028425/

 

 

For your enjoyment Gareth, I also took a couple over-view pictures of my MDC parts stash including the three engines I knew of on my limbo shelf and the narrow gauge loco - funny thing, I found another goat on that limbo shelf as well as another in my blasted - ready for paint box:

 

Overview shot:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4436587733/

 

Narrow Gauge 0-6-0 with a lindsay motor:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4436587947/

 

Sean


Group: vintageHO Message: 13679 From: rcjge Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 and 0-6-0 Tank Loco, same Frame?
Hey Sean:

You've used the term "Goat" and I understand it in proto terms but which of the two switchers are you referring to? I need the chassis for the earlier metal Switcher for now NOT the Tank version. Do you have enough of a surplus to part with one of the chassis?

Best,
Gareth


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
>
> Ok Guys,
>  
> as promiced, the following is a link to a picture of both 060 & 060t chassis side by side... The only difference being the screw mounted extension as I stated earlier:
>  
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4436587629/in/set-72157623505028425
>  
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4436587589/in/set-72157623505028425/
>  
>  
> For your enjoyment Gareth, I also took a couple over-view pictures of my MDC parts stash including the three engines I knew of on my limbo shelf and the narrow gauge loco - funny thing, I found another goat on that limbo shelf as well as another in my blasted - ready for paint box:
>  
> Overview shot:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4436587733/
>  
> Narrow Gauge 0-6-0 with a lindsay motor:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4436587947/
>  
> Sean
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13680 From: Nelson B Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Brass Varney made in 1936 Triplex
Only 5 hours to go at this point, and 0 bids on this priceless piece. This guy makes used car salesman look legit. I noticed that he had replaced the Bowser name with hash marks between the b and the r, as if it were a swear word, lol. Hopefully Lee English did give him a dressing down, and maybe the fraud reports helped as well.

What seemed obvious to me from the beginning is if you're receiving scads of requests from knowledgeable collectors who either own or want one, wouldn't those be the messages you'd post at the bottom of the page, instead of questions from people asking what the hell it is?

It's a shame it's in the hands of such a turkey. For the right price, it would be a nice addition to someone's collection. I'd sure like to see better photos.

Nelson


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:
>
> Lee English has now been contacted both on this group and Yardbird and was sent the information from ebay. He may also have received inquiries from other modelrs not on these group seeking clarification.
> I would wonder at this point if Lee English sent  Tazz a note in which he told him to stop misrepresenting himself.
>  
> Wobbly913
>
> --- On Mon, 3/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
> Subject: [vintageHO] Brass Varney made in 1936 Triplex
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, March 15, 2010, 10:40 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>           I'm not sure if anyone is still following the adventures of Tezz55 of Australia who is selling the so called Varney made in 1936 Triplex. He now has changed his description. The so called Email reply he received from Lee English / Bowser stating English has the exact same model has disappeared and the seller now says English has retracted his backing for this engine. I wonder if that could be because some people had asked Lee English as to the truth of the message the seller posted and now ( English ) has asked Tezz55 to remove it.
>  
>    However the seller is now  listing some one from PA ( B>>>>>>>r ) as having one for proof. Nothing showing saying a VARNEY made in 1936 Triplex just the same engine. This is like watching a comedy unfold that isn't all that funny.
>  
>                                                                           Jim H
>  
>  
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13681 From: bob d Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Need Help with ID and Price
Gentlemen,

I'm watching this item on eBay. Any info? I don't recognize the name on the box pictured. Same engine different road name. I'd be interested in it if it's worth the asking price.

I also posted this on yardbirds, but no "fer shur" replies.

link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190380985145&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Bob
Group: vintageHO Message: 13682 From: Sean Naylor Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
Hi Bob,
 
It is definately a Mantua loco in the wrong box. Look at the fibre cab / chassis mount plate with the slotted holes towards the back, under the cab. No other locos I know of had this other than early brass Mantua Goats, and Busy Bees. Definatly Mantua.
 
Just in a New One Models of Japan box.
Sean



From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 17, 2010 12:28:05 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Need Help with ID and Price

 

Gentlemen,

I'm watching this item on eBay. Any info? I don't recognize the name on the box pictured. Same engine different road name. I'd be interested in it if it's worth the asking price.

I also posted this on yardbirds, but no "fer shur" replies.

link: http://cgi.ebay. com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=19038098514 5&ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT

Bob


Group: vintageHO Message: 13683 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
I looked at it, with the clarity of the photos (why are so many evil-bait photos dark or out-of-focus?)
Looked mantua, with the Mantua couplers and white nylon worm gear.
So, I saved the pix, washed them through one of my photo programs, blew it up and lightened it.

The loco chassis sure looks Mantua, but the tender isn't, and the loco handrails aren't.

I can't find any info on that loco from HO Trains, but one guy says it is.


> Gentlemen,
>
> I'm watching this item on eBay. Any info? I don't recognize the name on the box pictured. Same engine different road name. I'd be interested in it if it's worth the asking price.
>
> I also posted this on yardbirds, but no "fer shur" replies.
>
> link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190380985145&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
>
> Bob
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13684 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
Attachments :
If there's no lead rot. The seller says he doesn't think it's the original
box, I'd bet it IS.

Lower left hand corner of the attached from MR, January '59

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "bob d" <fishntrains@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:28 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Need Help with ID and Price


> Gentlemen,
>
> I'm watching this item on eBay. Any info? I don't recognize the name on
> the box pictured. Same engine different road name. I'd be interested in it
> if it's worth the asking price.
>
> I also posted this on yardbirds, but no "fer shur" replies.
>
> link:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190380985145&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
>
> Bob
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13685 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
New One DID make that same locomotive. In another message I've attached a
scan of a GHC ad.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need Help with ID and Price


Hi Bob,

It is definately a Mantua loco in the wrong box. Look at the fibre cab /
chassis mount plate with the slotted holes towards the back, under the cab.
No other locos I know of had this other than early brass Mantua Goats, and
Busy Bees. Definatly Mantua.

Just in a New One Models of Japan box.
Sean





________________________________
From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 17, 2010 12:28:05 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Need Help with ID and Price


Gentlemen,

I'm watching this item on eBay. Any info? I don't recognize the name on the
box pictured. Same engine different road name. I'd be interested in it if
it's worth the asking price.

I also posted this on yardbirds, but no "fer shur" replies.

link: http://cgi.ebay com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=19038098514
5&ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT

Bob
Group: vintageHO Message: 13686 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Ebay 0-4-0 item
 

Bob D, All,
 
    Just checked my computer and saw the discussion about item 1903809785145 and who made it. I wish pictures were better and  lighter and my eyes not the best.
 
  A quick look says Mantua Lil Goat ( in GHC 0-4-0 Mother Hubbard box ) because of certain features I can make out and the shape of the tender. I will check it out further as time permits.
 
         Meanwhile I am sending 3 pictures which might help.  You be the judge especially if you have a way to lighten the pictures on Ebay. I tried to make my pictures on the lighter side to see details clearly.  ( Hope not to much flash )
  
       
        Picture  1        Mantua Lil Goat Camelback.
    
        Picture  2        One style of GHC( General Hobbies Corporation ) 0-4-0 Mother Hubbard sold by HOTCO ( HO Train Company ) 1958
 
        Picture  3        Other style of GHC / HOTCO 0-4-0 Mother Hubbard. Notice different details like stack. Also different tender. 1958
 
 
 Items in pictures 2 & 3 both made by New One , Japan. ( Same company that made Polk Hobbies Aristo Craft cast metal steam engine line )
 
                                                      Jim H
 
 
   
 
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13687 From: jim heckard Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Help With ID and Info
 

Bob D, All,
 
    I wanted to add some information to the pictures I sent to help ID the Ebay item you wanted to know about.
 
    Comparing the early Mantua 0-4-0 Lil Goat, which was a better engine, to  the New One / GHC / HOTCO 0-4-0 items. The Mantua Goat was made from sheet brass and cast metal parts and was in kit form. Mantua  had very little "zinc pest" ( rot / cracking of cast metal parts ) that I now about. The Mantua motor was  better both in performance and longevity..  The engine over all was better in numerous ways. The main and side rods and the parts supporting them especially.
 
    The two versions of the 0-4-0 GHC / HOTCO (sold as a Mother Hubbard ) made by New One Japan came assembled and originally factory painted. They both were cast metal  except the one version ( third picture I sent ) had some sheet brass. For whatever the reason New One engines sold by GHC / HOTCO had very bad cracking / rotting / disintegrating problems. ( The New One cast metal line of steam engines sold by Polks under the Aristo Craft label, except for the Atlantic, fared much better )   I lump it all under "zinc pest" ( poor pot metal used ). The 4-4-2 Atlantic ( also sold by Polks / Aristo Craft label ) and the 4-6-0 Jersey Central Camelback were notorious for "zinc pest". Yes you can find some in good shape. If you do keep it. The 0-4-0 types didn't seem to have as much problems as the two engines I just mentioned. Add to this the motors / performance of these engines was poor.
 
   I won't get into value. Its all relative for some HO items.  Condition and how much you want an item all come into play. I'm mainly talking from a collectors stand point.
 
  Hope this helps a little.
 
                                                  Jim H
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13688 From: Chris B Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Fw: Ebay - 1951 WINTON HO BRASS 2-6-6-6 ARTICULATED LOCOMOTIVE KIT
------Original Message------
From: Brannigan Chris J - Washington DC
To: chrisb_acw_rr@...
Sent: Mar 17, 2010 10:02 AM
Subject: Ebay - 1951 WINTON HO BRASS 2-6-6-6 ARTICULATED LOCOMOTIVE KIT


Ebay listing

1951 WINTON HO BRASS 2-6-6-6 ARTICULATED LOCOMOTIVE KIT
<http://cgi.ebay.com/1951-WINTON-HO-BRASS-2-6-6-6-ARTICULATED-LOCOMOTIVE-KIT_W0QQitemZ320503242965QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item4a9f7b60d5>
Item number: 320503242965
0 Bids $250.00 4d 11h 19m
Here's a Rare Find - it's a nearly MINT in Box - WINTON Minature Engineering HO BRASS Locomotive Kit - this is a 2-6-6-6 Articulated Locomotive. This kit was made and sold in 1951 and has it's own documentation & provenance. Winton was a manufacturer of very high end Brass HO Locomotives and from what I have learned, they were not in business for very long - he had some health issues (as discussed in one of the 2 letters from Winton that are included) and then along came the import brass train kits. This is a quite large kit and although I can't guarantee it is complete - it appears that everything is still here, in it's place. The box say is "less tender and motor" - however there is what appears to be a motor in this box. There are dozen's if not hundred of ALL BRASS pieces and "NOT A CASTING IN THE BOX" - which was Winton claim - ALL PARTS FULLY MACHINED AND STAMPED. Also included are what appears to be all the original diagrams and parts lists. There is also 2 letters (both in one envelope) from Winton to the original buyer of this kit. The first one is dated Feb. 6, 1951 and is an acknowledgement of the order and $$ order (can't use the word money due to eBay's fabulous filtering program about mo's). It says that "due to the large number of orders received, trouble obtaining material and Mr. Winton having blood poison in one of his hands, we will not be able to ship your kit for about two or three weeks..." - this letter is personally signed Mrs. Winton Brown. The second letter is dated April 27, 1951 and is referencing sending parts that were missing from the kit. This letter is personally signed Winton Brown..
Group: vintageHO Message: 13689 From: John H Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
This is Mantua from end to end. I spent some time on the enlarging and lightening process for the photos and have to agree with Sean.

The tender matches the one the one in Jim's photo of the goat. The photo of the underside (once reworked) shows standard Mantua practice in both tender casting and trucks.

Even in the guys crappy photos the model is obviously different than the one pictured on the box. Just the proportions of the cab are enough to make that determination.

No one mentioned the GHC stamp on the box label. Makes the id of the loco on the box easy. Decent, useable, seeable anythingable photos of the model would have made the actual models id just as easy.

The WISE div. has asked me to come up with a clinic on a GB&W related subject but maybe I should do one how to photograph models for ebay or other web usage. I'm no expert which would be good as I can speak on the amateur level. I am able to make well lit, sharp photos for such use albeit I do need to use a photo editor at times.

Starting price is reasonable on this auction though the engine does need some work. It may a possible good buy for someone looking for an early Goat.

John Hagen

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
>
> New One DID make that same locomotive. In another message I've attached a
> scan of a GHC ad.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need Help with ID and Price
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> It is definately a Mantua loco in the wrong box. Look at the fibre cab /
> chassis mount plate with the slotted holes towards the back, under the cab.
> No other locos I know of had this other than early brass Mantua Goats, and
> Busy Bees. Definatly Mantua.
>
> Just in a New One Models of Japan box.
> Sean
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, March 17, 2010 12:28:05 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Need Help with ID and Price
>
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> I'm watching this item on eBay. Any info? I don't recognize the name on the
> box pictured. Same engine different road name. I'd be interested in it if
> it's worth the asking price.
>
> I also posted this on yardbirds, but no "fer shur" replies.
>
> link: http://cgi.ebay com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=19038098514
> 5&ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT
>
> Bob
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13690 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Laconia "Ultra Detail" kit.
Very recently, I was presented with a previously unopened new-old
stock Laconia (Franklin, NH) B&M outside-braced box car kit which is
not listed by either type, number or in name in Ray Wetzel's good list
of Laconia cars in Files. The kit in its box had been obviously stored
in a dry drawer or high on an upstairs shelf inasmuch as the the paper
had not yellowed.

The box is a yellow-tan with considerable printing overlay identifying
the car as "Ultra Detail" (quotes theirs), and "An Exact Scale
Model" (quotes mine). Several ilustrated catalogue sheets folded
within identifies the Ultra Detail cars as: CV Green Mountain Milk
reefer; Mathieson Dry Ice reefer- $1.50; B&M 40', NYC 36', and PRR
40' (X31A) box cars $1.00; PRR 70' gondola $1.00; CTH&SE [Milwaukee
Road] wheel flat car, and "Donner Steel Co." flat cars lettered for
B&M, Clinchfield and Grand Trunk $0.75; and lastly, Aluminum Ore Co.
and PRR 70 ton quad hoppers and Inland Steel Company 50 ton hopper
$1.35. None are assigned numbers, and no number is on the kit box.

The framing is standard wood. The sides and ends are very neatly
embossed, painted and silk-screen-lettered heavy bristol board, which
is probably also faced with aluminum foil. Although there is some
rivet detail on the ends, there is none on the sides. The roof overlay
is embossed aluminum foil on board with is considerably thinner than
the sides. The parts are cast and the ladders stamped brass. There
are no trucks in the box, nor any mention of same in the the catalogue
description or instructions.

There is second sheet outlining their line of passenger cars- 12-1
sleeper, coach and combine with various choices of red or green paint,
and NYC or C&O lettering.

Third and fourth sheets list the kit parts and prices. Trucks are
listed here.

A fifth sheet catalogues all the numbered Lockhart-Laconia (so-
identified) kits and parts prices- apparently treated as a completely
separate line and still available.

Also in the box is a postage-paid post card for a free issue of MODEL
TRAINS (The HO Monthly), and two very neat Bristol board 50' HO scale
rulers on which are printed " LACONIA INDUSTRIES, INC., Laconia, NH,
HO Car Kits- Hardware, Printed Sides- Die Castings, Milled woodwork".

The production in Franklin, NH (not far from Laconia) was apparently
not long (c. 1948-50)- which dates this kit, and I am not certain how
many of these "Ultra" kits either individually, or as a separate
line, survived the move to California (aside from the dry ice and
milk reefers).

Denny



Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento
Group: vintageHO Message: 13691 From: rcjge Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: Roundhouse 0-6-0 Gorre & Dapheid
Hey Gents:

Does anyone consider a G&D decaled Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher (plastic?) Vintage?

I can see it having some appeal because of the G&D connection, but $138.49 (evilbay)seems a bit much.

-Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13692 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: Laconia "Ultra Detail" kit.
Hello Denny, You're right, in that the earlier Laconia kits did not have
catalog numbers. I could find no such numbering listing in their catalogs,
hence the reason there are no catalog numbers for these early cars in the
files' spreadsheet. As for my not listing this B&M outside-braced 40' box car,
I believe you must be mistaken and probably missed that part of my listing
as I'm positive that I included this car in the list I forwarded to Chuck
Higdon to fill in as part of my listing for a spread sheet for this
manufacturer and upload into the files. While it's possible Chuck may have missed
including this particular kit, I really tend to doubt it. I have this kit in
my collection -- with the reporting number -- 72000.

I'm glad to see you found those illustrated catalog (sell) sheets folded
within the kit. This extra literature did not come with the kits, and must
have been added later perhaps by the hobby shop. You were fortunate in being
able to obtain them. If they're the same sheets as I have, they were nicely
done -- some on gloss coated paper in full color, some on dull coated paper
in black & white and yet others on matt paper in sepia tone. I also
included all of these cars in my listing. While none of these "sell sheets" had
the kit catalog numbers on them, the newer kits WERE assigned catalog
numbers, which I included in my listing, just as I also included most of their
reporting numbers (each of these kits were given a series of three consecutive
road/reporting numbers). They are (once more) -- in order of your mention
-- as follows, along with the reporting numbers I have for them and their
catalog numbers (where applicable to the newer kits):

LA-5 Central Vermont (Green Mountain Route) "Vermont Milk" Express Reefer #
559

LA-4 Mathieson Dry Ice Reefer # 5023

B&M 40' Outside-Braced Box Car # 72000

NYC 36' Steel-Type Box Car # 91124

PRR 40' (X-31A) Box Car # 70311

PRR Mill Gondola (Class G27) 70-Ton, 52' 6" # 344500

CTH&SE (MILW Road) Wheel Flat Car -- Have listed as Binkley/Laconia catalog
# 156

B&M 55 Ton 42' Flat Car # 33618

LA-7 ALCOA (Aluminum Ore Co.) 70 Ton Quad Hopper # 809

LA-8 PRR 70 Ton Quad Hopper #'s 179378, 179379 and 179380

LA-6 Inland Steel 50 Ton Hopper # 304

The 80' 12-Section Pullman Standard sleeper cars came lettered either as
"Hutchinson" or simply as "Pullman" (there were two different kits) -- as per
Laconia's blue & black printed (on glossy stock) sell sheet -- as was
included in the files' listing. The Coach was available lettered only in C&O, and
the modeler's choice of undecorated red or green (but not NYC). The
Combination Baggage Smoker was available lettered only in NYC, and the modeler's
choice of undecorated red or green (but not C&O).

I notice this B&M Outside-Braced 40' Boxcar kit did not come with trucks,
although slightly more recently (but still while in Franklin, NH), many of
their kits were offered both ways -- with or without trucks -- depending on
the modeler's choice. At that time, the B&M Flat Car was priced at $1.50 with
trucks and 75 cents w/o trucks. The Central Vermont Reefer and the
Mathieson Dry Ice Reefer each sold for $2.25 with trucks and $1.50 w/o trucks,
while the NYC Box Car was priced at $1.75 with trucks or $1.00 w/o trucks -- as
was also the PRR Mill Gondola. The PRR Hopper was priced at $2.00 with
trucks, while it was also offered at $1.35 w/o trucks. The somewhat short
production by Laconia Industries at the Franklin, NH address was mentioned in
the history on the listing for this company. Previously, pre-War, this
company started out in Laconia, NH until the War interrupted their model
production.

Yes, Lockhart-Laconia was treated as a completely separate line (again,
noted in the company's history in our files), as it was originally started as
"Lockhart" by a Mr. T.H. Lockhart in the mid-1930's, with Laconia Industries
purchasing the line in 1939; they were improved (with new hardware castings
[end sills, etc.], couplers, trucks and increased thickness wood ends)
during the Summer of 1940. Laconia's own, then-new line of kits was brought out
in mid-1941, with the services of a Mr. M.E. Malcon who was previously the
chief designer for the prototype Laconia Car Works company that occupied most
of the same building that Laconia Industries rented a part of. . While the
Lockhart-Laconia line was dropped (phased out) as their own (new) line
started to be produced, this new line resumed at Franklin, NH after the War.
Ray F.W.



.












</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13693 From: jay matz Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: Roundhouse 0-6-0 Gorre & Dapheid
Gareth
It is a let lay. It is not worlth that much not even close.
Most thime the plastic ones go for under $20.00.
Jay

--- On Thu, 3/18/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Roundhouse 0-6-0 Gorre & Dapheid
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 10:24 PM

 
Hey Gents:

Does anyone consider a G&D decaled Roundhouse 0-6-0 Switcher (plastic?) Vintage?

I can see it having some appeal because of the G&D connection, but $138.49 (evilbay)seems a bit much.

-Gareth


Group: vintageHO Message: 13694 From: Wally Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Winans Camelback
Am I correct that Strombecker once made an 0-8-0 Winan's Camelback. I would very much like to obtain one for semimetal reasons. If I am right, I'll watch for one on eBay and if any of the members know of one, I'd be interested.

Thanks!!

Wally Weart
Group: vintageHO Message: 13695 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
If there was, it more likely would have been O Scale, as were several other
old-timers. (DeWitt Clinton, Lafayette, CNW Pioneer --all with cars. gj
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wally" <dim01521@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 12:44 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Winans Camelback


> Am I correct that Strombecker once made an 0-8-0 Winan's Camelback. I
> would very much like to obtain one for semimetal reasons. If I am right,
> I'll watch for one on eBay and if any of the members know of one, I'd be
> interested.
>
> Thanks!!
>
> Wally Weart
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13696 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
As the popular saying goes, "never say never," but as far as I know
StromBecker never made an 0-8-0 Winan's Camelback. I've never seen nor heard of
one, nor is it listed in any of my StromBecker catalogs. I guess there's
always the possibility that they produced one near the end of the company's
existance that was poorly advertised. Ray F.W. </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13697 From: Lester Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
Strombecker did make this model in 1939-40 as part of their "Railroads on Parade" Worlds Fair Series. It was in HO Scale. This model is extremely rare in kit form and also extremely hard to find in built up form. I am an avid collector of Strombecker trains and each day go on ebay searching for rare models in any form. I have done this for five years at least and have only seen this model appear 3 or for times in built up form. I only saw the kit once with the whole group of 6 Worlds Fare models in the original package and I was lucky enough to get them although at a rather high price five years ago. I believe the Camelback to be harder to find than the OO Daylight or the OO Consolidated. Les Morris

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
> As the popular saying goes, "never say never," but as far as I know
> StromBecker never made an 0-8-0 Winan's Camelback. I've never seen nor heard of
> one, nor is it listed in any of my StromBecker catalogs. I guess there's
> always the possibility that they produced one near the end of the company's
> existance that was poorly advertised. Ray F.W. </HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13698 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
Les, Thanks for making that known. I guess that explains why I never saw
it, even in StromBecker catalogs, as I was thinking in terms of post-War,
not knowing about this model's possibility in the pre-War era. I've taken
note that they are rare; you're lucky to have found one (any chance you could
post a pic?). Ray F.W. </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13699 From: Chris B Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
Is it too soon to say there's an aussie ebay listing for the Bactrian version?
It says it's even less common than the std camelback,
and the prototype can go twice as far between water stops?
From: erieberk@...
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:34:04 EDT
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Winans Camelback

 

Les, Thanks for making that known. I guess that explains why I never saw
it, even in StromBecker catalogs, as I was thinking in terms of post-War,
not knowing about this model's possibility in the pre-War era. I've taken
note that they are rare; you're lucky to have found one (any chance you could
post a pic?). Ray F.W. </HTML>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13700 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
group.

File : /V List Laconia cars.xls
Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
Description : List of Laconia models

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Laconia%20cars.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13701 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Laconia "Ultra Detail" kit.

Hi Denny and Ray,

I could not find it, so added it now.  New file at the group site.

Take care,

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk@...
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 5:00 AM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Laconia "Ultra Detail" kit.

 

 

Hello Denny, You're right, in that the earlier Laconia kits did not have
catalog numbers. I could find no such numbering listing in their catalogs,
hence the reason there are no catalog numbers for these early cars in the
files' spreadsheet. As for my not listing this B&M outside-braced 40' box car,
I believe you must be mistaken and probably missed that part of my listing
as I'm positive that I included this car in the list I forwarded to Chuck
Higdon to fill in as part of my listing for a spread sheet for this
manufacturer and upload into the files. While it's possible Chuck may have missed
including this particular kit, I really tend to doubt it. I have this kit in
my collection -- with the reporting number -- 72000.


Group: vintageHO Message: 13702 From: rcjge Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Hobbytown anybody?
hey Gents:

Just wondering if anyone else on the list is a Hobbytown Diesel collector?

I have several RS-3's, two, RSD-4/5's, two PA's, a Switcher Chassis kit and the GP General Chassis. Nothing else in diesel puls like em.

Anyone else?

-Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13703 From: Chris B Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?

Gareth, I'll second that vice.  I have an E-unit chassis and multiple A&B shells, 1 PA chassis & shell, 1 RS-3 chassis and shell, 3 GP chassis, 1 F unit chassis, and 4 yard switcher chassis with Cary S-2 shells, plus a modest parts box of used and new trucks, gear sets, & drive shaft universal sets. 

A few are early model units with the drive tower gears facing out and rubber tubing for shaft connections, but most are the later units with the tower gears facing in and universal drive connections.

I am no mech engineer, but as I understand it, the reason Hobbytown drives can pull like they do is not dependent on the weight of the die cast shells, but is really because the tower gear setup and the helical gears on the truck wheel shafts is unlike most other drive trains.. 

I think the the tower gears operate like a truck in low gear that reduces rpms and increases force at the wheels on the rails; and the helical gears on the wheel axle shafts reduce the force needed to start and continue rotation.

fwiw, AJIN/OMI/Overland has always used and P2K has recently adopted helical gears on the drive shaft axles.

They say you can tell a helical drive setup if you can push an unpowered engine along the rails in either direction and the wheels turning on the rails will rotate the motor shaft.

I need them for the 4% grades on my layout, but I really like them because they remind me a lot of the drive train and components of the 1947 GMS 3/4 ton pickup I drove as my shop truck for ten years.

Chris B.     


From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 21, 2010 8:00:22 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown anybody?

 

hey Gents:

Just wondering if anyone else on the list is a Hobbytown Diesel collector?

I have several RS-3's, two, RSD-4/5's, two PA's, a Switcher Chassis kit and the GP General Chassis. Nothing else in diesel puls like em.

Anyone else?

-Gareth


Group: vintageHO Message: 13704 From: still just frank Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: HObbyline responce to Hobbytown
I don't have any Hobbytown but I like and have HObbyline FM H-10-44s. The black one lettered just for HObbyline, A second lettered for Pennsylvania RR, A third for the B&O, a forth for the Lehigh Valley. These four are all factory painted. I have two others custom painted for the CNJ and NYC.
frank
Group: vintageHO Message: 13705 From: jim heckard Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?

Gareth,
 
     Chris B has explained the drives pretty well. If you interested in the types of Hobbytown engines I have including an RDC 2 go to    www.hoseeker.net  click on Gallery, go to  Other trains ( which includes Hobbytown ) and click, go to page 6 and you will find my Hobbytown items.
 
                                               Jim H
 
   
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Hobbytown anybody?

 


Gareth, I'll second that vice.  I have an E-unit chassis and multiple A&B shells, 1 PA chassis & shell, 1 RS-3 chassis and shell, 3 GP chassis, 1 F unit chassis, and 4 yard switcher chassis with Cary S-2 shells, plus a modest parts box of used and new trucks, gear sets, & drive shaft universal sets. 

A few are early model units with the drive tower gears facing out and rubber tubing for shaft connections, but most are the later units with the tower gears facing in and universal drive connections.

I am no mech engineer, but as I understand it, the reason Hobbytown drives can pull like they do is not dependent on the weight of the die cast shells, but is really because the tower gear setup and the helical gears on the truck wheel shafts is unlike most other drive trains.. 

I think the the tower gears operate like a truck in low gear that reduces rpms and increases force at the wheels on the rails; and the helical gears on the wheel axle shafts reduce the force needed to start and continue rotation.

fwiw, AJIN/OMI/Overland has always used and P2K has recently adopted helical gears on the drive shaft axles.

They say you can tell a helical drive setup if you can push an unpowered engine along the rails in either direction and the wheels turning on the rails will rotate the motor shaft.

I need them for the 4% grades on my layout, but I really like them because they remind me a lot of the drive train and components of the 1947 GMS 3/4 ton pickup I drove as my shop truck for ten years.

Chris B.     


From: rcjge <jgpedwards@gmail. com>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sun, March 21, 2010 8:00:22 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown anybody?

 

hey Gents:

Just wondering if anyone else on the list is a Hobbytown Diesel collector?

I have several RS-3's, two, RSD-4/5's, two PA's, a Switcher Chassis kit and the GP General Chassis. Nothing else in diesel puls like em.

Anyone else?

-Gareth


Group: vintageHO Message: 13706 From: jim heckard Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: HObbyline responce to Hobbytown
Hi Frank,
 
    Question.        Are your HObbyline FM H-10-44's the 4 wheel drive with the flat heavy rubber band / pulley drive and dummy track type or are they 8 wheel drive with the flexible drive shaft between the two geared trucks ?
 
                                                            Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 9:18 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] HObbyline responce to Hobbytown

 

I don't have any Hobbytown but I like and have HObbyline FM H-10-44s. The black one lettered just for HObbyline, A second lettered for Pennsylvania RR, A third for the B&O, a forth for the Lehigh Valley. These four are all factory painted. I have two others custom painted for the CNJ and NYC.
frank

Group: vintageHO Message: 13707 From: Wally Weart Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Winans Camelback
Thanks to all who commented and the World's Fair collection makes sense as my brother (4 years older)  reminded me that there  were  several other models that my father built besides the Winan's Camblelback. Guess I'll look on eBay and see if I get lucky.

Thanks!!

Wally

Group: vintageHO Message: 13708 From: Carl Neste Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
I have an Athearn GP-30 body on a Hobbytown chassis with low-speed gearing. Unfortunately, the club I'm a member of is DCC.
Carl


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rcjge
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 7:00 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown anybody?

 

hey Gents:

Just wondering if anyone else on the list is a Hobbytown Diesel collector?

I have several RS-3's, two, RSD-4/5's, two PA's, a Switcher Chassis kit and the GP General Chassis. Nothing else in diesel puls like em.

Anyone else?

-Gareth

Group: vintageHO Message: 13709 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Gareth, While I don't actively "collect" Hobbytown models, I do enjoy
having a number of them and include a couple of PA's, RS-3's and FA's which fit
in with the roadnames I operate. You can pull the walls down with them, as
they're one of the best designed and engineered mechanisms you can buy in a
diesel model.

Along these same lines, I also enjoy having other non-vintage steam and
diesel metal engine models by Arbour Models and Tiger Valley Models. In Arbour
Models, I have the C&O Allegheny, C&O Kanawa 2-8-4, PRR J-1 2-10-4 and
Nickel Plate Road Berkshire 2-8-4. In Tiger Valley, I have one Phase 1 C420 low
nose and two Phase 2 C420 low nose 4-axle ALCo Century's (for L&HR) and
several six-axle Century's (for LV). Then, added to my earlier Bowser, I have
a number of steam models that were never carried over from Penn Line, such
as a USRA Northern, USRA 2-10-2 and the "correct" (fat-boilered) PRR Decapod,
and PRR K-5 which used the same wide boiler. Along with that, I have a PRR
N-2s, which uses a Cary Boiler made for the Bowser Decapod mechanism, with
a 2-wheel trailing truck added. Other Cary boilers (USRA Heavy and Light
Mikes, and C&NW Mike) await my putting them onto Mantua mechanisms.

I don't limited myself just to metal though, as I have a pair of Athearn
blue box D&H PA's, a trio of Life-Like D&H C628's which I've fine tuned and a
pair of AHM E-L E-8's which also run fairly well for what they are, all
non-vintage of course but nice to operate with vintage rolling stock and
varnish. Ray F.W. </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13710 From: bob d Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
If one spends any length of time in teh hobby, I've been model railroading for 50 years, you'll find you subconsciously collect a lot of stuff. I've got quite a few old Athearn Hi-Fi's, Mantuas, Varneys. I really don't know how I acquired all of them. t just happened. Got some Hobbytowns too. I think they just showed up on the doorstep one day, like a lost puppy.

Bob

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
>
> Gareth, While I don't actively "collect" Hobbytown models, I do enjoy
> having a number of them and include a couple of PA's, RS-3's and FA's which fit
> in with the roadnames I operate. You can pull the walls down with them, as
> they're one of the best designed and engineered mechanisms you can buy in a
> diesel model.
>
> Along these same lines, I also enjoy having other non-vintage steam and
> diesel metal engine models by Arbour Models and Tiger Valley Models. In Arbour
> Models, I have the C&O Allegheny, C&O Kanawa 2-8-4, PRR J-1 2-10-4 and
> Nickel Plate Road Berkshire 2-8-4. In Tiger Valley, I have one Phase 1 C420 low
> nose and two Phase 2 C420 low nose 4-axle ALCo Century's (for L&HR) and
> several six-axle Century's (for LV). Then, added to my earlier Bowser, I have
> a number of steam models that were never carried over from Penn Line, such
> as a USRA Northern, USRA 2-10-2 and the "correct" (fat-boilered) PRR Decapod,
> and PRR K-5 which used the same wide boiler. Along with that, I have a PRR
> N-2s, which uses a Cary Boiler made for the Bowser Decapod mechanism, with
> a 2-wheel trailing truck added. Other Cary boilers (USRA Heavy and Light
> Mikes, and C&NW Mike) await my putting them onto Mantua mechanisms.
>
> I don't limited myself just to metal though, as I have a pair of Athearn
> blue box D&H PA's, a trio of Life-Like D&H C628's which I've fine tuned and a
> pair of AHM E-L E-8's which also run fairly well for what they are, all
> non-vintage of course but nice to operate with vintage rolling stock and
> varnish. Ray F.W. </HTML>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13711 From: Matthew Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Need Help with ID and Price
I have two of the old GHC/New One Camelback locos, in the original boxes and the item in the eBay listing is definately not one of those. I don't have a Mantua version, but I agree with the consensus that it sure looks like one.

Matt




--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
>
> New One DID make that same locomotive. In another message I've attached a
> scan of a GHC ad.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need Help with ID and Price
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> It is definately a Mantua loco in the wrong box. Look at the fibre cab /
> chassis mount plate with the slotted holes towards the back, under the cab.
> No other locos I know of had this other than early brass Mantua Goats, and
> Busy Bees. Definatly Mantua.
>
> Just in a New One Models of Japan box.
> Sean
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, March 17, 2010 12:28:05 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Need Help with ID and Price
>
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> I'm watching this item on eBay. Any info? I don't recognize the name on the
> box pictured. Same engine different road name. I'd be interested in it if
> it's worth the asking price.
>
> I also posted this on yardbirds, but no "fer shur" replies.
>
> link: http://cgi.ebay com/ws/eBayISAPI .dll?ViewItem& item=19038098514
> 5&ssPageName= STRK:MEWAX: IT
>
> Bob
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13712 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
I also have Hobbytown PA's and FA's that I have remotored with can motors.  Have a set of three Fa's, with the center B unit having the motor-the hugest Sagami that I could fit in the shell and the tow A-units driven off the B-unit and they are filled with lead.  The trio laughs at 100 cars!
 
Brad Smith
Franklin,WI
Group: vintageHO Message: 13713 From: tom bell Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
I have 4 Hobbytown RSD4's converted into RSD12's. As they are not DCC yet, I'm not currently running them. The main problem with doing a DCC conversion is the poor pickup, they only use one side of each bogie and three of the four have Brass wheels. 

Oddly enough, the one later loco I have, with nickel plated wheels , a can motor and a clutch in the drive runs much worse that the earlier ones! - though it is a bit quieter and uses about one third the current.

At the moment I'm going though my steam fleet , many of which are also rather long in the tooth, putting DCC in all of these, then I'll probably try and think what to do about these.

Tom 

On 22 March 2010 13:43, <corlissbs@...> wrote:
 

I also have Hobbytown PA's and FA's that I have remotored with can motors.  Have a set of three Fa's, with the center B unit having the motor-the hugest Sagami that I could fit in the shell and the tow A-units driven off the B-unit and they are filled with lead.  The trio laughs at 100 cars!
 
Brad Smith
Franklin,WI


Group: vintageHO Message: 13714 From: Chris B Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Tom, one of my hobbytown yard switchers came modified with a Sagami can motor and Tomar sliding shoe power pickups.

It never stalls on sketchy track, even without the weight of the Cary body.
I'd never seen them before, but they impressed me enough to buy some old but unused Tomar pickup kits at a show.

I got them to use them on the two 70 tonners I'm building from vintage Ivers shell kits and Keystone drives.

The keystone trucks are plastic and feel light to me, and I'm hoping that mounting the tomar shoes on the metal chassis will let the weight of the pot metal iIvers shell keep good contact btw the shoes and the rail.

Chris B

From: tom bell <tebeeb@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:37:33 +0100
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown anybody?

 

I have 4 Hobbytown RSD4's converted into RSD12's. As they are not DCC yet, I'm not currently running them. The main problem with doing a DCC conversion is the poor pickup, they only use one side of each bogie and three of the four have Brass wheels. 


Oddly enough, the one later loco I have, with nickel plated wheels , a can motor and a clutch in the drive runs much worse that the earlier ones! - though it is a bit quieter and uses about one third the current.

At the moment I'm going though my steam fleet , many of which are also rather long in the tooth, putting  DCC in all of these, then I'll probably try and think what to do about these.

Tom 

On 22 March 2010 13:43, <corlissbs@aol. com> wrote:
 

I also have Hobbytown PA's and FA's that I have remotored with can motors.  Have a set of three Fa's, with the center B unit having the motor-the hugest Sagami that I could fit in the shell and the tow A-units driven off the B-unit and they are filled with lead.  The trio laughs at 100 cars!
 
Brad Smith
Franklin,WI


Group: vintageHO Message: 13715 From: Glenn476 Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Grandt Line makes (made?) a couple of good pickups that adapt well to HO diesels  #s 7003 and 7005--one is for the Kemtron On3 Shay, the other for small rod locos.  Both mount with a screw--they have a pickup molded in an insulator block with a wire attached.  gj
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
To: Vint Ho
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown anybody?

Tom, one of my hobbytown yard switchers came modified with a Sagami can motor and Tomar sliding shoe power pickups.

It never stalls on sketchy track, even without the weight of the Cary body.
I'd never seen them before, but they impressed me enough to buy some old but unused Tomar pickup kits at a show.

I got them to use them on the two 70 tonners I'm building from vintage Ivers shell kits and Keystone drives.

The keystone trucks are plastic and feel light to me, and I'm hoping that mounting the tomar shoes on the metal chassis will let the weight of the pot metal iIvers shell keep good contact btw the shoes and the rail.

Chris B

From: tom bell <tebeeb@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:37:33 +0100
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown anybody?

 

I have 4 Hobbytown RSD4's converted into RSD12's. As they are not DCC yet, I'm not currently running them. The main problem with doing a DCC conversion is the poor pickup, they only use one side of each bogie and three of the four have Brass wheels. 


Oddly enough, the one later loco I have, with nickel plated wheels , a can motor and a clutch in the drive runs much worse that the earlier ones! - though it is a bit quieter and uses about one third the current.

At the moment I'm going though my steam fleet , many of which are also rather long in the tooth, putting  DCC in all of these, then I'll probably try and think what to do about these.

Tom 

On 22 March 2010 13:43, <corlissbs@aol. com> wrote:
 

I also have Hobbytown PA's and FA's that I have remotored with can motors.  Have a set of three Fa's, with the center B unit having the motor-the hugest Sagami that I could fit in the shell and the tow A-units driven off the B-unit and they are filled with lead.  The trio laughs at 100 cars!
 
Brad Smith
Franklin,WI


Group: vintageHO Message: 13716 From: jim heckard Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Silvine
   
          I am searching for some information concerning an HO company called Silvine. The person asking me specifically wants to know when they were in business.
 
   The things I remember most about them was they made some really nice metal operating signal accessories. I know at one time I had a lighted double track signal bridge in a box and a few other types of signals.
 
   I do remember they also had sold the little 4 wheel operating trolley that Mantua sold / made.   I don't know who came first. A second item I know they sold was an 0-4-0 "Tea Kettle" cast metal engine that was made by New One , Japan.
 
  Any information you can provide would be forwarded to the person making the inquiry. Thanks ahead of time.
 
                                                   Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13717 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Silvine
The last I see of Silvine is ca. 1959 or so (in fact they're in the same
General Hobbies ad I posted a week or so ago in the 0-4-0 camelback thread.)

The Silvine was before the Mantua. That's why if you look at the Mantua the
axels don't line up with the journal boxes. That's because Mantua used the
same mechanism as their Plymouth CR-4 switcher.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery



----- Original Message -----
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 10:53 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Silvine



I am searching for some information concerning an HO company
called Silvine. The person asking me specifically wants to know when they
were in business.

The things I remember most about them was they made some really nice
metal operating signal accessories. I know at one time I had a lighted
double track signal bridge in a box and a few other types of signals.

I do remember they also had sold the little 4 wheel operating trolley
that Mantua sold / made. I don't know who came first. A second item I know
they sold was an 0-4-0 "Tea Kettle" cast metal engine that was made by New
One , Japan.

Any information you can provide would be forwarded to the person making
the inquiry. Thanks ahead of time.

Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13718 From: ho_in_hancock Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Silvine
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
>
> I am searching for some information concerning an HO company called Silvine.

Jim:

I can add that the Mantua single truck trolley definitely came before the Silvine. As a matter of fact, the Silvine appears to be a copy of the Mantua with a little added roof detail. I have both and the Silvine mechanism is not as well made as the Mantua. I am talking about the single-axle drive version. The body castings have very minor differences especially on the ends. I usually re-motor and re-wheel both brands to get better operation.

Ken Robbins
Group: vintageHO Message: 13719 From: Chris B Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Silvine

Jim,  one pc of the puzzle comes from a sale of one of the teakettles sold on ebay in jan, with a silvine box marked
 
Silvine Line, Glenside PA
 
 
I found other Silvine items that are listed or were recently listed, including transformers and signals, but so far none of those has yielded any add'l address or era info.
 

 
Chris B.


 
=========================

                               
        HO gauge B & O TEAKETTLE                               
                                       
        Item condition: --                     
                                       
                                       
        Ended:  Jan 15, 201022:19:27 SGT                       
                                       
        Bid history:    3 bids         
                                                                       
        Winning bid:    US $26.09                      
                Approximately S$ 36.47                 

       
Seller info    
zelmaelmer

       
Other item info                
Item number:    130357993958   
Item location:  Bainbridge, PA, United States  
Post to:        United States  


============
found this one in my dads attic, b&o teakettle, it says baltimore and ohio with the # 25. IT is in the original box,  from silvine line glenside, pa.  unsure if it runs.

     

From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:53:49 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Silvine

 

   
          I am searching for some information concerning an HO company called Silvine. The person asking me specifically wants to know when they were in business.
 
   The things I remember most about them was they made some really nice metal operating signal accessories. I know at one time I had a lighted double track signal bridge in a box and a few other types of signals.
 
   I do remember they also had sold the little 4 wheel operating trolley that Mantua sold / made.   I don't know who came first. A second item I know they sold was an 0-4-0 "Tea Kettle" cast metal engine that was made by New One , Japan.
 
  Any information you can provide would be forwarded to the person making the inquiry. Thanks ahead of time.
 
                                                   Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13720 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: 0-6-6-0 Steam
List,

Hello, I have a vintage HO scale brass loco I am wanting to sell.
It doesn't go with my Pennsy stuff. It is quite an attractive little
articulated. Imported by Aristocraft in the late 1950's. I believe
Katsumi was the builder. It represents an ALco 0-6-6-0. Nice little
logging loco? It is standard gauge. Complete. Unpainted. Runs fairly
well. Includes the box. Hit me up with some offers. Contact me off
list. Here are some photos

http://prrmodels.com/arttic4.JPG

http://prrmodels.com/arttic5.JPG

Thanks, Gary





Come visit my PRR Pages:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
Group: vintageHO Message: 13721 From: tom bell Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: 0-6-6-0 Steam
I'm fairly certain it's a model of a Japanese prototype - I suspect a  3ft6 loco done to 1:80 scale as it does not match any US prototype loco, though it's similar to the B&O "Old Maude".

I have a couple of these myself, both  off ebay a few years ago, neither in the best of condition, but they were both ridiculously cheap. At the moment they are just going through the shops being refurbished and DCC'ed.

For a brass loco of that era they run fairly well, open frame motor without gearbox driving the rear bogie only - the front ones just along for the ride, so they are not that powerful.

One thing though both of mine have different tenders and both of these are smaller than the tender your's has, was this loco supplied without a tender and people fitted their own? Or is it just that two of these three have had a tender swap !

Tom

On 22 March 2010 23:34, <mittner@...> wrote:
 

List,

Hello, I have a vintage HO scale brass loco I am wanting to sell.
It doesn't go with my Pennsy stuff. It is quite an attractive little
articulated. Imported by Aristocraft in the late 1950's. I believe
Katsumi was the builder. It represents an ALco 0-6-6-0. Nice little
logging loco? It is standard gauge. Complete. Unpainted. Runs fairly
well. Includes the box. Hit me up with some offers. Contact me off
list. Here are some photos

http://prrmodels.com/arttic4.JPG

http://prrmodels.com/arttic5.JPG

Thanks, Gary

Come visit my PRR Pages:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html


Group: vintageHO Message: 13722 From: jim heckard Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Winton 2-6-6-6
Chris B,
 
    I was wondering if you followed that Winton 2-6-6-6 auction to the end. A little chunk of change. Also wonder if a member won it. If so I would be interested in getting copies of the two letters from Mrs. Winton Brown.
 
   I was trying to look closely at the pictures the seller posted. He said minus motor and tender. I did see a motor in a plastic bag  Not sure if it is the right Pittman O Gauge motor ( DC-91 ) that was supposed to be used in this HO engine. Also I thought I saw a tender body wrapper in the left side of the box (maybe even top and bottom pieces). Hope the buyer got all the parts to build the engine. Who ever got it will get HOURS of "enjoyment" building it.
 
                                      Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13723 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: 0-6-6-0 Steam
tom bell wrote:
 

I'm fairly certain it's a model of a Japanese prototype - I suspect a  3ft6 loco done to 1:80 scale as it does not match any US prototype loco, though it's similar to the B&O "Old Maude".


I have a couple of these myself, both  off ebay a few years ago, neither in the best of condition, but they were both ridiculously  cheap. At the moment they are just going through  the shops being refurbished and DCC'ed.

For a brass loco of that era they run fairly well, open frame motor without gearbox driving the rear bogie only - the front ones just along for the ride, so they are not that powerful.

One thing though both of mine have different tenders and both of these are smaller than the tender your's has, was this loco supplied without a tender and people fitted their own? Or is it just that two of these three have had a tender swap !

Tom
I have the same model... apparently it has the same tender as Garys model (The oil tank is a later addition) . However I have seen them even with a six wheel tender...

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13724 From: jim heckard Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: 0-6-6-0 Steam
        Just a little info on this 0-6-6-0 from a Polk's Blue Book 1959 catalog. The picture shows what looks like the same tender that Gary's picture has. This engine was sold as Aristo Craft "Crown Jewel" Limited Edition Series 0-6-6-0 Mallet Compound. Will negotiate 14" radius track. No.CJL2 ready to run   $65.00   No. CJL2-K  Unpainted kit   $57.50
 
                                                     Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: tom bell
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 0-6-6-0 Steam

 

I'm fairly certain it's a model of a Japanese prototype - I suspect a  3ft6 loco done to 1:80 scale as it does not match any US prototype loco, though it's similar to the B&O "Old Maude".


I have a couple of these myself, both  off ebay a few years ago, neither in the best of condition, but they were both ridiculously  cheap. At the moment they are just going through  the shops being refurbished and DCC'ed.

For a brass loco of that era they run fairly well, open frame motor without gearbox driving the rear bogie only - the front ones just along for the ride, so they are not that powerful.

One thing though both of mine have different tenders and both of these are smaller than the tender your's has, was this loco supplied without a tender and people fitted their own? Or is it just that two of these three have had a tender swap !

Tom

On 22 March 2010 23:34, <mittner@webtv. net> wrote:
 

List,

Hello, I have a vintage HO scale brass loco I am wanting to sell.
It doesn't go with my Pennsy stuff. It is quite an attractive little
articulated. Imported by Aristocraft in the late 1950's. I believe
Katsumi was the builder. It represents an ALco 0-6-6-0. Nice little
logging loco? It is standard gauge. Complete. Unpainted. Runs fairly
well. Includes the box. Hit me up with some offers. Contact me off
list. Here are some photos

http://prrmodels. com/arttic4. JPG

http://prrmodels. com/arttic5. JPG

Thanks, Gary

Come visit my PRR Pages:

http://www.angelfir e.com/film/ prrpics/PRR- pages.html


Group: vintageHO Message: 13725 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Silvine
Chris B wrote:
>
>
>
> Jim, one pc of the puzzle comes from a sale of one of the teakettles
> sold on ebay in jan, with a silvine box marked
>
> Silvine Line, Glenside PA
>
>
> I found other Silvine items that are listed or were recently listed,
> including transformers and signals, but so far none of those has
> yielded any add'l address or era info.
>
>
Didnt they sell a Eheim style Trolley Bus set too?

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13726 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: 0-6-6-0 Steam
Box and instruction sheet. "Kit" meant screwdriver assembly of a few
parts?

http://prrmodels.com/arttic6.JPG

....Gary





Come visit my PRR Pages:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
Group: vintageHO Message: 13727 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Jim,
    Having successfully built 2 of these Allegheny Wintons, I was able to determine from the photos that a few parts were missing.  I saw only 1 boiler dome and no tender trucks or wheels. As I mentioned in an email to the seller, the letters alone were a temptation, but I have another mint kit of my own with a letter signed by Winton Brown, so no sale here. These things are a bear to build, and few or no parts are available for them, and there is very little one can substitute for missing parts due to the fact that so much is stamped and not cast. Even a single missing piece can put a severe crimp in such a project though a few flat brass items could be formed from brass stock. I would not be happy commencing to build a project like this knowing the thing would sit there unfinished and reminding me that I spent over $300 for a pile of brass pieces--1951 notwithstanding.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/22/2010 7:13:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes:


Chris B,
 
    I was wondering if you followed that Winton 2-6-6-6 auction to the end. A little chunk of change. Also wonder if a member won it. If so I would be interested in getting copies of the two letters from Mrs. Winton Brown.
 
   I was trying to look closely at the pictures the seller posted. He said minus motor and tender. I did see a motor in a plastic bag  Not sure if it is the right Pittman O Gauge motor ( DC-91 ) that was supposed to be used in this HO engine. Also I thought I saw a tender body wrapper in the left side of the box (maybe even top and bottom pieces). Hope the buyer got all the parts to build the engine. Who ever got it will get HOURS of "enjoyment" building it.
 
                                      Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13728 From: tom bell Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: 0-6-6-0 Steam
So it looks like both of mine came with the wrong tenders, one looks more or less the same  but a little shorter and the other has a straight top with the coal space narrower.

I suppose i can't complain as I paid exactly the same price for the loco 5 or six years ago as it was when it was new. 

Westside did a revised version of this loco with an oil tender at one point but I've never seen one in the flesh.

This is what I think the prototype was 

On 23 March 2010 00:29, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
 

        Just a little info on this 0-6-6-0 from a Polk's Blue Book 1959 catalog. The picture shows what looks like the same tender that Gary's picture has. This engine was sold as Aristo Craft "Crown Jewel" Limited Edition Series 0-6-6-0 Mallet Compound. Will negotiate 14" radius track. No.CJL2 ready to run   $65.00   No. CJL2-K  Unpainted kit   $57.50
 
                                                     Jim H

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13729 From: jim heckard Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Art,
 
   I finished one kit and would never attempt another. I still need both original tender trucks.( Hint Hint for anyone having either / both ) I am using  Arbour Allegheny tender trucks right now. My kit came complete except a couple of the flat brass valve gear pieces were missing. I spent a few hours making the missing pieces. Luckily everything else was there.
 
                                                 Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: luvprr@...
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 2-6-6-6

 

Jim,
    Having successfully built 2 of these Allegheny Wintons, I was able to determine from the photos that a few parts were missing.  I saw only 1 boiler dome and no tender trucks or wheels. As I mentioned in an email to the seller, the letters alone were a temptation, but I have another mint kit of my own with a letter signed by Winton Brown, so no sale here. These things are a bear to build, and few or no parts are available for them, and there is very little one can substitute for missing parts due to the fact that so much is stamped and not cast. Even a single missing piece can put a severe crimp in such a project though a few flat brass items could be formed from brass stock. I would not be happy commencing to build a project like this knowing the thing would sit there unfinished and reminding me that I spent over $300 for a pile of brass pieces--1951 notwithstanding.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/22/2010 7:13:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes:


Chris B,
 
    I was wondering if you followed that Winton 2-6-6-6 auction to the end. A little chunk of change. Also wonder if a member won it. If so I would be interested in getting copies of the two letters from Mrs. Winton Brown.
 
   I was trying to look closely at the pictures the seller posted. He said minus motor and tender. I did see a motor in a plastic bag  Not sure if it is the right Pittman O Gauge motor ( DC-91 ) that was supposed to be used in this HO engine. Also I thought I saw a tender body wrapper in the left side of the box (maybe even top and bottom pieces). Hope the buyer got all the parts to build the engine. Who ever got it will get HOURS of "enjoyment" building it.
 
                                      Jim H

Group: vintageHO Message: 13730 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Jim,
    Now that you mention it, I had to form the same pieces (as those you mentioned) so I could provide a complete kit in order to sell it a couple of years ago on eBay. Ya gotta wonder if those would have been some of those parts that a supplier was short on. It's possible that some kits were knowingly sold short of parts with the idea that they could be provided later. Sorta like computer software that is put on the market with shortcomings that are soon upgraded with a download! Of course this is an old idea that goes 'way back. I'm reminded of newly designed  fighter aircraft that had to be put into service before all the kinks were gotten out in WWII.--the P-38 in particular. But that's another story I guess.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/22/2010 8:06:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@... writes:


Art,
 
   I finished one kit and would never attempt another. I still need both original tender trucks.( Hint Hint for anyone having either / both ) I am using  Arbour Allegheny tender trucks right now. My kit came complete except a couple of the flat brass valve gear pieces were missing. I spent a few hours making the missing pieces. Luckily everything else was there.
 
                                                 Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: luvprr@...
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 2-6-6-6

 

Jim,
    Having successfully built 2 of these Allegheny Wintons, I was able to determine from the photos that a few parts were missing.  I saw only 1 boiler dome and no tender trucks or wheels. As I mentioned in an email to the seller, the letters alone were a temptation, but I have another mint kit of my own with a letter signed by Winton Brown, so no sale here. These things are a bear to build, and few or no parts are available for them, and there is very little one can substitute for missing parts due to the fact that so much is stamped and not cast. Even a single missing piece can put a severe crimp in such a project though a few flat brass items could be formed from brass stock. I would not be happy commencing to build a project like this knowing the thing would sit there unfinished and reminding me that I spent over $300 for a pile of brass pieces--1951 notwithstanding.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/22/2010 7:13:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes:


Chris B,
 
    I was wondering if you followed that Winton 2-6-6-6 auction to the end. A little chunk of change. Also wonder if a member won it. If so I would be interested in getting copies of the two letters from Mrs. Winton Brown.
 
   I was trying to look closely at the pictures the seller posted. He said minus motor and tender. I did see a motor in a plastic bag  Not sure if it is the right Pittman O Gauge motor ( DC-91 ) that was supposed to be used in this HO engine. Also I thought I saw a tender body wrapper in the left side of the box (maybe even top and bottom pieces). Hope the buyer got all the parts to build the engine. Who ever got it will get HOURS of "enjoyment" building it.
 
                                      Jim H

Group: vintageHO Message: 13731 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
After reading some comments about Hobbytown I see that I have a virtually mint set (#456 "Trail Blazer") for Hobbyline by John English of Morrisville, PA. Anyone into that?
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/22/2010 8:44:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, corlissbs@... writes:


I also have Hobbytown PA's and FA's that I have remotored with can motors.  Have a set of three Fa's, with the center B unit having the motor-the hugest Sagami that I could fit in the shell and the tow A-units driven off the B-unit and they are filled with lead.  The trio laughs at 100 cars!
 
Brad Smith
Franklin,WI
Group: vintageHO Message: 13732 From: Chris B Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Jim, I just got in from work, and saw this whole thread.

Sorry, I didn't follow it to the end, but what I learned reading all the posts just now is exactly the kind of information I hoped would come up from drawing attention to the listing. 

I'm still hoping to get a good picture on early vintage HO diesel, but I can only say they don't seem like much compared to the complexities of collecting vintage HO steam from that time. 

Still I was hoping I wasn't the only one that thought the Winton letter apologizing for the delay caused by his blood poisoning was an especially frank bit of communicating with a customer.  <g!>

Chris B. 

 



From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, March 22, 2010 8:04:58 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 2-6-6-6

 

Art,
 
   I finished one kit and would never attempt another. I still need both original tender trucks.( Hint Hint for anyone having either / both ) I am using  Arbour Allegheny tender trucks right now. My kit came complete except a couple of the flat brass valve gear pieces were missing. I spent a few hours making the missing pieces. Luckily everything else was there.
 
                                                 Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: luvprr@...
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 2-6-6-6

 

Jim,
    Having successfully built 2 of these Allegheny Wintons, I was able to determine from the photos that a few parts were missing.  I saw only 1 boiler dome and no tender trucks or wheels. As I mentioned in an email to the seller, the letters alone were a temptation, but I have another mint kit of my own with a letter signed by Winton Brown, so no sale here. These things are a bear to build, and few or no parts are available for them, and there is very little one can substitute for missing parts due to the fact that so much is stamped and not cast. Even a single missing piece can put a severe crimp in such a project though a few flat brass items could be formed from brass stock. I would not be happy commencing to build a project like this knowing the thing would sit there unfinished and reminding me that I spent over $300 for a pile of brass pieces--1951 notwithstanding.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/22/2010 7:13:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jimheck@losch. net writes:


Chris B,
 
    I was wondering if you followed that Winton 2-6-6-6 auction to the end. A little chunk of change. Also wonder if a member won it. If so I would be interested in getting copies of the two letters from Mrs. Winton Brown.
 
   I was trying to look closely at the pictures the seller posted. He said minus motor and tender. I did see a motor in a plastic bag  Not sure if it is the right Pittman O Gauge motor ( DC-91 ) that was supposed to be used in this HO engine. Also I thought I saw a tender body wrapper in the left side of the box (maybe even top and bottom pieces). Hope the buyer got all the parts to build the engine. Who ever got it will get HOURS of "enjoyment" building it.
 
                                      Jim H


Group: vintageHO Message: 13733 From: Roger Aultman Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
I do not have any John English or Hobbyline sets but some individual pieces.  I had looked for a H10 for years and then found one at a garage sale.  Shortly therer after I got another one at a swap meet, one has the gear drive the other a belt.  My JE/Hobbyline Yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JohnEnglish-Hobbyline/?yguid=310579148
Roger Aultman
 
----- Original Message -----
From: luvprr@...
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown anybody?

 

After reading some comments about Hobbytown I see that I have a virtually mint set (#456 "Trail Blazer") for Hobbyline by John English of Morrisville, PA. Anyone into that?
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/22/2010 8:44:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, corlissbs@aol. com writes:


I also have Hobbytown PA's and FA's that I have remotored with can motors.  Have a set of three Fa's, with the center B unit having the motor-the hugest Sagami that I could fit in the shell and the tow A-units driven off the B-unit and they are filled with lead.  The trio laughs at 100 cars!
 
Brad Smith
Franklin,WI

Group: vintageHO Message: 13734 From: railroadmodeler Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
Caveat - I do not have a Winton in my possession and until this auction have never even seen one. All I am going on here are the comments on this thread and the auction photographs.

After examining the auction photos, I'm not sure that there are any parts missing in this kit.

I humbly offer the following observations (photos counted from the left to right, top row first, then bottom row):

Defense exhibit A - The first letter (displayed as picture 11) says "enclosed are the parts missing from your kit". This appears to be a letter from a second delivery, not from the original kit delivery, and presumably all of the missing bits were included in the delivery.

Defense Exhibit B - In photograph 5 we see in the upper left corner 3 non-driver axles with some brass bits. This appears to be the front tender truck.

Defense Exhibit C - In photograph 6 we see in the upper right corner 3 non-driver axles with some brass bits. This appears to be the Locomotive's trailing truck.

Defense Exhibit D - In photograph 7 we see inside the tender body 4 non-driver axles in a brass assembly. this appears to be the tender's trailing truck.

Defense Exhibit E - In photograph 6 we see what appears to be, at first glance, a single steam dome. Upon closer inspection, we can see two distinct edges, possibly indicating a nested pair of boiler domes.



As always, I defer to the superior experience and knowledge of the esteemed members of this group.


Regards,


Ken Berry
railroadmodeler
Group: vintageHO Message: 13735 From: jim heckard Date: 3/23/2010
Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6
        For the sake of the buyer of this Winton kit I hope all parts are there. Even though the pictures are fairly clear its funny how they can be viewed differently. I did however read the letter about missing parts this time which I didn't before. Seems it talks about 2 parts, one of which isn't normally supplied with the kit. Pertaining to all parts now there both letters talk about when the kit was first bought and mint. Hopefully in 60 years of the box being open no parts were lost.
 
    I won't dispute what you see. Unless a member or someone I know bought the kit we may never know for sure if complete. Again I hope the buyer got it all. Even with all the parts , if the buyer intends to build it, has a big project on his / her hands.
 
                                     Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 10:58 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Winton 2-6-6-6

 

Caveat - I do not have a Winton in my possession and until this auction have never even seen one. All I am going on here are the comments on this thread and the auction photographs.

After examining the auction photos, I'm not sure that there are any parts missing in this kit.

I humbly offer the following observations (photos counted from the left to right, top row first, then bottom row):

Defense exhibit A - The first letter (displayed as picture 11) says "enclosed are the parts missing from your kit". This appears to be a letter from a second delivery, not from the original kit delivery, and presumably all of the missing bits were included in the delivery.

Defense Exhibit B - In photograph 5 we see in the upper left corner 3 non-driver axles with some brass bits. This appears to be the front tender truck.

Defense Exhibit C - In photograph 6 we see in the upper right corner 3 non-driver axles with some brass bits. This appears to be the Locomotive's trailing truck.

Defense Exhibit D - In photograph 7 we see inside the tender body 4 non-driver axles in a brass assembly. this appears to be the tender's trailing truck.

Defense Exhibit E - In photograph 6 we see what appears to be, at first glance, a single steam dome. Upon closer inspection, we can see two distinct edges, possibly indicating a nested pair of boiler domes.

As always, I defer to the superior experience and knowledge of the esteemed members of this group.

Regards,

Ken Berry
railroadmodeler

Group: vintageHO Message: 13736 From: jim heckard Date: 3/25/2010
Subject: Fake ?????
    To All,
 
     This is a message I just received from Dave Spanagel author of the Greenberg Guide to Varney Trains and moderator of the late HOSC@H-SIG concerning that Australian Ebay seller of a supposed 1936 Varney Virginian Triplex which caused a stir a little ways back.
 
    While it is a little late I still think relevant in adding to disprove what that seller tried to push.
 
                                               Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: Fake ?????

That engine was a LMB brass Erie prototype and worth about $250.00 MAX.   Never was a Varney, although someone could installed a Varney drive under the boiler.  The LMB engines ran like crap.   DAVE
Group: vintageHO Message: 13737 From: trainm7 Date: 3/26/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody? HOBBYTOWN FOREVER!
I am a big fan of the hobbytown drives I built my first over 40 years ago.I have GP-9s in New Haven and B&M ,Athearn GP-7 shells modified. Some Athearn F-7 AB units in the B&M Minuteman scheme on the universal drives. Train Miniature FABA on the universal drive in NH Alpert scheme.A couple of the yard switcher chassis in NH and B&M . Alco PAs and RS-3s assembled yet to be painted. Some U25Bs with Stewart shells to be painted NH.Also some F2/F# and E-7 assembled with Cary bodies. Even today I think they are outperform more current drives. Don`t use DCC and with sounds coming from them they have their own sound system built in ,you know where they are without having to look for them. They are a lot of fun to build and operate. HOBBYTOWN FOREVER!

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
>
> hey Gents:
>
> Just wondering if anyone else on the list is a Hobbytown Diesel collector?
>
> I have several RS-3's, two, RSD-4/5's, two PA's, a Switcher Chassis kit and the GP General Chassis. Nothing else in diesel puls like em.
>
> Anyone else?
>
> -Gareth
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13738 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/26/2010
Subject: Idea Kits
Is anybody an Ideal freight car collector? I will be sorting out a
box of old (vintage) HO kits. I note some kits and assembled cars.
I'm looking to put together a package deal to sell them.

Pictures:
Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920a.jpg
Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920b.jpg
Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920c.jpg
Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920d.jpg

There are other cars and at least one building.

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 13739 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/26/2010
Subject: Re: Idea Kits
Depends.
I kinda like cardstock cars, have a bunch.
And, I like Mantua couplers.
But, I need to know how much before I says yes!

Dave


> Is anybody an Ideal freight car collector? I will be sorting out a
> box of old (vintage) HO kits. I note some kits and assembled cars.
> I'm looking to put together a package deal to sell them.
>
> Pictures:
> Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920a.jpg
> Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920b.jpg
> Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920c.jpg
> Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920d.jpg
>
> There are other cars and at least one building.
>
> Garry Spear
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13740 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 3/26/2010
Subject: Re: Fake ?????
I hesitate to go further on this, but, in all due respect to Jim and Dave and their knowledge of Varney (far more than my own), I do some brass. Whatever that "thing" was, it was not an LMB triplex. LMB did at least two or three runs of an Erie triplex (not the Virginian, which is significantly different). Going price is about double or triple the $250 that Dave says. He is right that they usually run badly; mine is the centerpiece of my brass locomotive repair clinic (how I got it running is a long story). And if anybody still cares, the Erie triplex was run in brass by LMB and Key; the Virginian triplex was done in brass by Westside and (I think)PSC. The item that started this discussion in the first place, the non-Varney, is almost certainly not the Westside brass VGN triplex, but, as we beat to death, the pictures were so poor that I can't be absolutely sure.

And if anybody isn't sick to death of this whole topic by now, the Westside brass VGN triplex is usually available for $800 to $1200, is a good model, and runs much better than the prototype ever did.

Frank Bongiovanni

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> To All,
>
> This is a message I just received from Dave Spanagel author of the Greenberg Guide to Varney Trains and moderator of the late HOSC@H-SIG concerning that Australian Ebay seller of a supposed 1936 Varney Virginian Triplex which caused a stir a little ways back.
>
> While it is a little late I still think relevant in adding to disprove what that seller tried to push.
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Janetdavs@...
> To: jimheck@...
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 5:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Fake ?????
>
>
> That engine was a LMB brass Erie prototype and worth about $250.00 MAX. Never was a Varney, although someone could installed a Varney drive under the boiler. The LMB engines ran like crap. DAVE
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13741 From: jim heckard Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Fake
Frank B,
 
       I can't attest to the accuracy of Dave Spanagels assessment that the Brass Triplex engine on Ebay was in fact.LMB. I am limited in knowledge of those companies making shall we say "higher end" sheet brass items. I have no idea who made any of them other then knowing about things like  Brown's Book of Brass and never really digging deep into those companies and items.
 
    The only reason I sent the response was to add to all other reports that the engine in question was not Varney nor made in 1936 as the seller kept persistently claiming.
 
                                  Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13742 From: Denny Anspach Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: Fake ?????
Whatever that "thing" was, it was not an LMB triplex

Yes. 

In the absence of other information, this thread has run its course, and we should move on.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento



Group: vintageHO Message: 13743 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: FA: LACONIA CHATEAU-MARTIN WINE KIT on eBay
I have a Laconia Chateau-Martin wine car kit on eBay #120546884985.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120546884985&

Good sides, complete body kit, but missing some detail parts.

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 13744 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: Idea Kits
I have a couple of 150 ton Bucyrus Erie Ideal wrecking cars available myself. Built 5 of  'em. Nostalgic due to the fact that we have one in the family built in 1943 by my bro. I think I have 2 available. Complete with original details.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/26/2010 11:06:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, garrettspear@... writes:
Is anybody an Ideal freight car collector?  I will be sorting out a
box of old (vintage) HO kits.  I note some kits and assembled cars.
I'm looking to put together a package deal to sell them.

Pictures:
Direct Link:  http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920a.jpg
Direct Link:  http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920b.jpg
Direct Link:  http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920c.jpg
Direct Link:  http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920d.jpg

There are other cars and at least one building.

Garry Spear


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Group: vintageHO Message: 13745 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: Idea Kits

Art,

Those wreckers are nice kits.  Photos were posted a while back.

 

Anybody,

Is there a list of all of their products?  We have not done them yet for our file section.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of luvprr@...
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 12:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Idea Kits

 

 

I have a couple of 150 ton Bucyrus Erie Ideal wrecking cars available myself. Built 5 of  'em. Nostalgic due to the fact that we have one in the family built in 1943 by my bro. I think I have 2 available. Complete with original details.

 

Art W

 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13746 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: Idea Kits
Chuck,
 
Not sure the wrecker pics were ever added to the group collection of photos. I went all the way back to 2004 and didn't see any. I did send some photos to someone on here a while back though.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/27/2010 3:07:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:


Art,

Those wreckers are nice kits.  Photos were posted a while back.

 

Anybody,

Is there a list of all of their products?  We have not done them yet for our file section.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of luvprr@...
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 12:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Idea Kits

 

 

I have a couple of 150 ton Bucyrus Erie Ideal wrecking cars available myself. Built 5 of  'em. Nostalgic due to the fact that we have one in the family built in 1943 by my bro. I think I have 2 available. Complete with original details.

 

Art W

 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13747 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: GSFS: Ideal Cars, Kits, and a Comet Kit For Sale
I have up loaded two pictures of Ideal items. I would like to sell
them as a package dear. One sale, One shipment, easier, etc. I'll
split the package if the price is right.

Entire lot: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/Ideal3.jpg
Cars Only: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/Ideal4.jpg

The pictured lot contains
1) Interlocking Tower -Top Left Box & kit Parts.
2) N&W box car from other pictures. - Center left
3) D&RGW caboose - Bottom Left
4) Comet Kit (optional)- Top Right, MP Auto Box, Side slightly embossed.
5) Ideal Crossing Shanty - Only the crossing gates, No shanty
6) Ideal VGN Boxcar Kit. I think the car is black, cold not tell the
color(poor lighting).

Prices
1) 5.00
2) 8.00
3) 12.00
4) 10.00
5) 0.00
6) 10.00
Group: vintageHO Message: 13748 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Fwd: GSFS: Ideal Cars, Kits, and a Comet Kit For Sale
Whoops, ignore last email. Sorry.

I have up loaded two pictures of Ideal items.  I would like to sell
them as a package dear.  One sale, One shipment, easier, etc.  I'll
split the package if the price is right.

Entire lot: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/Ideal3.jpg
Cars Only: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/Ideal4.jpg

The pictured lot contains
1) Interlocking Tower -Top Left Box & kit Parts.
2) N&W box car from other pictures. - Center left
3) D&RGW caboose - Bottom Left
4) Comet Kit (optional)- Top Right, MP Auto Box, Side slightly embossed.
5) Ideal Crossing Shanty - Only the crossing gates, No shanty
6) Ideal VGN Boxcar Kit.  I think the car is black, cold not tell the
color(poor lighting).

Prices
1)   5.00
2)   8.00
3) 12.00
4) 10.00 opt.
5)   0.00
6) 10.00
Tot 35.00 or 45.00 with the Comet kit. Shipping Included. Check or MO

Want a single Item Make a great offer. Don't like my price no
problem, tell me how crazy I am and make an offer. I can only say no.

Note please reply Direct, No need to clutter the Vintage list with our
emails. And please keep GSFS in the subject line, this will sort your
message to the correct mailbox for easy identification and response.

Garry Spear
Group: vintageHO Message: 13749 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: Idea Kits
Dave,

I just emailed the Vintage Group.

I have up loaded two pictures of Ideal items.  I would like to sell
them as a package dear.  One sale, One shipment, easier, etc.  I'll
split the package if the price is right.

Entire lot: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/Ideal3.jpg
Cars Only: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/Ideal4.jpg

The pictured lot contains
1) Interlocking Tower -Top Left Box & kit Parts.
2) N&W box car from other pictures. - Center left
3) D&RGW caboose - Bottom Left
4) Comet Kit (optional)- Top Right, MP Auto Box, Side slightly embossed.
5) Ideal Crossing Shanty - Only the crossing gates, No shanty
6) Ideal VGN Boxcar Kit.  I think the car is black, cold not tell the
color(poor lighting).

Prices
 1)   5.00
 2)   8.00
 3) 12.00
 4) 10.00 opt.
 5)   0.00
 6) 10.00
Tot  35.00 or 45.00 with the Comet kit.  Shipping Included. Check or MO

Want a single Item Make a great offer.  Don't like my price no
problem, tell me how crazy I am and make an offer.  I can only say no.

Note please reply Direct, No need to clutter the Vintage list with our
emails.  And please keep GSFS in the subject line, this will sort your
message to the correct mailbox for easy identification and response.

Garry Spear

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 11:26 PM, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
 

Depends.
I kinda like cardstock cars, have a bunch.
And, I like Mantua couplers.
But, I need to know how much before I says yes!

Dave



> Is anybody an Ideal freight car collector? I will be sorting out a
> box of old (vintage) HO kits. I note some kits and assembled cars.
> I'm looking to put together a package deal to sell them.
>
> Pictures:
> Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920a.jpg
> Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920b.jpg
> Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920c.jpg
> Direct Link: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S920d.jpg
>
> There are other cars and at least one building.
>
> Garry Spear
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13750 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: GSFS [vintageHO] Idea Kits
Art,

I assume from your id you like the PRR.  PRRT&HS member?  Going to Camp Hill Convention?  And lastly live any where near FortWashington, PA?

Garry Spear

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 4:21 PM, <luvprr@...> wrote:
 

Chuck,
 
Not sure the wrecker pics were ever added to the group collection of photos. I went all the way back to 2004 and didn't see any. I did send some photos to someone on here a while back though.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/27/2010 3:07:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:


Art,

Those wreckers are nice kits.  Photos were posted a while back.

 

Anybody,

Is there a list of all of their products?  We have not done them yet for our file section.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of luvprr@...
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 12:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Idea Kits

 

 

I have a couple of 150 ton Bucyrus Erie Ideal wrecking cars available myself. Built 5 of  'em. Nostalgic due to the fact that we have one in the family built in 1943 by my bro. I think I have 2 available. Complete with original details.

 

Art W

 


Group: vintageHO Message: 13751 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: GSFS: Ideal Cars, Kits, and a Comet Kit For Sale
Well, now I know who made this caboose I have been trying to identify.
AND I know what the cupola looks like!

Dave


>
> I have up loaded two pictures of Ideal items. I would like to sell
> them as a package dear. One sale, One shipment, easier, etc. I'll
> split the package if the price is right.
>
> Entire lot: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/Ideal3.jpg
> Cars Only: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/Ideal4.jpg
>
> The pictured lot contains
> 1) Interlocking Tower -Top Left Box & kit Parts.
> 2) N&W box car from other pictures. - Center left
> 3) D&RGW caboose - Bottom Left
> 4) Comet Kit (optional)- Top Right, MP Auto Box, Side slightly embossed.
> 5) Ideal Crossing Shanty - Only the crossing gates, No shanty
> 6) Ideal VGN Boxcar Kit. I think the car is black, cold not tell the
> color(poor lighting).
>
> Prices
> 1) 5.00
> 2) 8.00
> 3) 12.00
> 4) 10.00
> 5) 0.00
> 6) 10.00
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13752 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 3/27/2010
Subject: Re: GSFS: Ideal Cars, Kits, and a Comet Kit For Sale
Except it's sure different than this:
http://hoseeker.net/Ideal/idealcaboose.jpg

Ideal make more than one caboose?
Is that one you have, the end doors recessed WAY into the wall?

Dave

>
> Well, now I know who made this caboose I have been trying to identify.
> AND I know what the cupola looks like!
>
> Dave
>
>
> >
> > I have up loaded two pictures of Ideal items. I would like to sell
> > them as a package dear. One sale, One shipment, easier, etc. I'll
> > split the package if the price is right.
> >
> > Entire lot: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/Ideal3.jpg
> > Cars Only: http://dgstrains.fileave.com/Ideal4.jpg
> >
> > The pictured lot contains
> > 1) Interlocking Tower -Top Left Box & kit Parts.
> > 2) N&W box car from other pictures. - Center left
> > 3) D&RGW caboose - Bottom Left
> > 4) Comet Kit (optional)- Top Right, MP Auto Box, Side slightly embossed.
> > 5) Ideal Crossing Shanty - Only the crossing gates, No shanty
> > 6) Ideal VGN Boxcar Kit. I think the car is black, cold not tell the
> > color(poor lighting).
> >
> > Prices
> > 1) 5.00
> > 2) 8.00
> > 3) 12.00
> > 4) 10.00
> > 5) 0.00
> > 6) 10.00
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13753 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 3/28/2010
Subject: Re: GSFS [vintageHO] Idea Kits
Garry,
Used to belong to PRRT&HS but let it lapse. Yep, I live in Doylestown
 
Art
 
In a message dated 3/27/2010 9:41:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, garrettspear@... writes:


Art,

I assume from your id you like the PRR.  PRRT&HS member?  Going to Camp Hill Convention?  And lastly live any where near FortWashington, PA?

Garry Spear

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 4:21 PM, <luvprr@...> wrote:
 

Chuck,
 
Not sure the wrecker pics were ever added to the group collection of photos. I went all the way back to 2004 and didn't see any. I did send some photos to someone on here a while back though.
 
Art W
 
In a message dated 3/27/2010 3:07:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:


Art,

Those wreckers are nice kits.  Photos were posted a while back.

 

Anybody,

Is there a list of all of their products?  We have not done them yet for our file section.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

 


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of luvprr@...
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 12:11 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Idea Kits

 

 

I have a couple of 150 ton Bucyrus Erie Ideal wrecking cars available myself. Built 5 of  'em. Nostalgic due to the fact that we have one in the family built in 1943 by my bro. I think I have 2 available. Complete with original details.

 

Art W

 


Group: vintageHO Message: 13754 From: jim heckard Date: 3/28/2010
Subject: Progress on gift
         Finally got some time to work on the Dallas Model Craft B unit with paper sides that I received as a gift. I just completed a new building and decided time to do this project.
 
      While I have all the parts including a set of six wheel drive thanks to Chris B, I will have to rework the paper sides. They need some touching up. After I do that I might have to reprint them. I had to get the paper sides off to disassemble the entire body. Those paper sides cover the heads  of a number of little screws ( eye glass size ) that hold the aluminum sides on. While it works nice the first time you would assemble the kit new it does cause problems in trying to get the paper sides off without destroying them. Now being disassembled I have a good shot at making a very presentable and near original DMC B unit of the first version with paper sides.
 
       Thanks guys.
 
       For those that might like to see ( Don D maybe ) my newest layout building I sent 2 pictures of J L Innovatives laser kit called " McSorely's Old Ale House" I just finished. It fits in a perfect spot because of how made with the most detail on the nearest side, roof and back viewed. Couple more buildings and it will be time for more detailed scenicking  Side walks for the town, chain link fence for the power station area are in transit. Time for Woodland Scenic colored ground foam and clumps for trees and bush, etc.
 
                                                                           Jim H
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13755 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: Re: Progress on gift
Hi Jim, Good to read and see you are making progress on the DMC B unit. Interesting to read of how they were put together - never knew about those hidden optical screws. That McSorley's model with the overhanging upper story rear room reminds me of similar arrangements in a nearby town north of here, and they overlooked a railroad, too. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Finally got some time to work on the Dallas Model Craft B unit with paper sides that I received as a gift. I just completed a new building and decided time to do this project.
>
> While I have all the parts including a set of six wheel drive thanks to Chris B, I will have to rework the paper sides. They need some touching up. After I do that I might have to reprint them. I had to get the paper sides off to disassemble the entire body. Those paper sides cover the heads of a number of little screws ( eye glass size ) that hold the aluminum sides on. While it works nice the first time you would assemble the kit new it does cause problems in trying to get the paper sides off without destroying them. Now being disassembled I have a good shot at making a very presentable and near original DMC B unit of the first version with paper sides.
>
> Thanks guys.
>
> For those that might like to see ( Don D maybe ) my newest layout building I sent 2 pictures of J L Innovatives laser kit called " McSorely's Old Ale House" I just finished. It fits in a perfect spot because of how made with the most detail on the nearest side, roof and back viewed. Couple more buildings and it will be time for more detailed scenicking Side walks for the town, chain link fence for the power station area are in transit. Time for Woodland Scenic colored ground foam and clumps for trees and bush, etc.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13756 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
Hi Gareth,

Just catching up with posts from the past week, so count me in with the legion of hobbytown of Boston fans. What drew me attention to them as a young teen in the mid-1960's was simply that they had an Alco RS-3 road switcher and that is what the Erie, later E-L operated on most of the twelve commuter trains five days a week through our town. Out of my reach until I found several leftover all plastic RS-3 kits at Highway Hobby in Ramsey, NJ, and discounted to 99 cents. Painted them in Erie colors and even bought all metal trucks from Kemtron, (ex Lindsay). But never motorized them. Years later bought the Atlas versions but those hobbytowns were still a favorite model as they were equipped just like the Erie units. .

A few years back when I discovered the line had been restored to life by Howard Mosely, I treated myself to a new all metal RS-03. It was through his informative website that I discovered that hobbytown had once made narrow metal power chassis for those RS-3's and RSD-4/5's. At the same time I was becoming very active in seeking vintage HO, so the hunt was on. Finally found my first narrow power chassis at a nearby show - and you can imagine the satisfaction of placing one of my original Erie decorated RS-3s on it and seeing it run on its own for the first time. Since then found two more and an RSD-4/5 version which is being detailed to follow the CNJ units used in Pennsylvania.

Also have some E6's with DC-91's and have all the parts to finish two Alco PA-s, just have to decide on the motors.

Was sorry to see Howard Mosely close up shop a few years back, miss seeing him at the shows. I wanted to tackle powering a couple metal Mantua Sharks with hobbytown drive next.

Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
>
> hey Gents:
>
> Just wondering if anyone else on the list is a Hobbytown Diesel collector?
>
> I have several RS-3's, two, RSD-4/5's, two PA's, a Switcher Chassis kit and the GP General Chassis. Nothing else in diesel puls like em.
>
> Anyone else?
>
> -Gareth
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13757 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: mystery power truck
Hi All!
 
This mystery power truck, photos attached below, closed today at $20.50 on eBay before I could check it again, Item # 220577519256, listed as "VARNEY HO K&O LINDSAY POWER TRUCK?" as the seller did not know, but aimed it towards vintage modelers.  
 
I think I have seen perhaps an illustration of the motor before.  The sideframes do look like Lindsay's, but the gearing looks like something cobbled together in a modeler's shop and not a production item. 
 
Does anyone have any ideas? 

 

 

  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13758 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown anybody?
When I was a teenager and living in Providence, RI, in the early 1960's, I used to ride the train to Boston and one of the places that I visited was Hobbytown Of Boston.  They had one of their locomotives (RS-3, I believe, running on a track in the window.  They were trying to make it fail.  I have no idea if it ever failed.  It probably would have worn out the motor brushes before anything else wore out.  The recent posts reminded me of those visits.  I purchased a pair of PA-1's, an RS-3 and a ABA set of FA's.
 
Brad Smith
Group: vintageHO Message: 13759 From: jim heckard Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: K&O power
W Jay W,
 
      I don't know if there is any connection but I have sent pictures from a kit called "The Pace Maker Line" The reason I sent it is by K&O Models Inc. which might have something to do with what you ask.
 
     While the pictures of this odd drive is not the same as in the Ebay auction it mighty lead to something with what you question. This drive in my pictures reminds me of some IMP ( International ) drives. The kit is for an F-7 using an Athearn plastic body and plastic side frames ( don't know by who ). Just a thought.
 
     Have no idea about the set up on the drive you picture.
 
                                              Jim H
 
 
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13760 From: Don Grant Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: Re: mystery power truck [2 Attachments]
K & O (a Japanese Co) made small permanent magnet battery motors for small model boats in the 1950's and 1960's.
Best,
Don Grant

--- On Tue, 3/30/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] mystery power truck [2 Attachments]
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 30, 2010, 5:59 PM

[Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]

Hi All!
 
This mystery power truck, photos attached below, closed today at $20.50 on eBay before I could check it again, Item # 220577519256, listed as "VARNEY HO K&O LINDSAY POWER TRUCK?" as the seller did not know, but aimed it towards vintage modelers.  
 
I think I have seen perhaps an illustration of the motor before.  The sideframes do look like Lindsay's, but the gearing looks like something cobbled together in a modeler's shop and not a production item. 
 
Does anyone have any ideas? 
 
 


Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk

2 of 2 Photo(s)


Group: vintageHO Message: 13761 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/30/2010
Subject: New Acquisition
A member of my club had a sale last Saturday to liquidate a sizable
portion of his models. He and his wife are relocating for health reasons
according the e-mail announcement that was sent out. Most of what was
being sold were models of recent manufacturing age, but I did find a
couple of items of interest to this group.
Amongst the Intermountain, Red Caboose and P2K kits I came across an
old Roundhouse metal kit for a Frisco truss side boxcar. There is a bit
of zinc rot beginning to show on the painted sides, with small portions
of the paint flaking off, but most of the other castings seem to be
pretty clean. Hopefully any more deterioration will be slow and I can
paint them up and not have to worry about it for years. The other
envelopes for the details and trucks were still sealed so they are also
hopefully in good shape. Not sure of the exact age of this kit, but the
instructions list and address on Anza Street in LA. It pre-dates zip
codes, as the address says Los Angeles 24, CA, no zip following. I paid
$10 for this.
The other item which is perhaps of slightly less interest to the
group is a brass RS unit from Alco Models. I can't identify the exact
version at sight like some people, but I could tell that it was a '50s
era loco. That makes it appropriate for the second era I model, the
early '60s. I had to pull out the old Diesel Spotter's Guide and my old
Alco Models catalog to determine that it's an RSD-4/5. The two units are
identical externally according to the DSG. I got this one for $50.
The other things that I picked up were from P2K, Intermountain,
Branchline and Stewart, so are not of interest to our discussions here.

--

Rick Jones

In the 1960s people took LSD to make the world look weird. Now
the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it look normal.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13762 From: Don Dellmann Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: mystery power truck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Grant" <grantdono@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] mystery power truck


K & O (a Japanese Co) made small permanent magnet battery motors for small
model boats in the 1950's and 1960's.
Best,
Don Grant

--- On Tue, 3/30/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:


I can't find it now, but I had an ad, and I think it's been mentioned here
before, about their "Hobo" train set that was a battery operated F-7 using
an Athearn shell. The idea was, it ran around the layout on it's own, while
you had to keep out of it's way with your regular locomotive. (Since it was
basically running "out of control")

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
Group: vintageHO Message: 13763 From: the_plainsman Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: mystery power truck
Hi Jim H., Don G. and Don D.,

Thanks for filling me in what a K&O setup was; There was some discussion here about the "Hobo" item before, (thanks for the photo of the motor and power truck set-up today, Jim), and I remember seeing a whole factory fresh case of them sold on eBay about two years ago - there is information on them on the Tony's Trains website, I believe.

I am still trying to place that motor with the "U" shaped magnet or frame that I showed. I know I have seen it before...no time available now, will do some research tonight.

W. Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Grant" <grantdono@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] mystery power truck
>
>
> K & O (a Japanese Co) made small permanent magnet battery motors for small
> model boats in the 1950's and 1960's.
> Best,
> Don Grant
>
> --- On Tue, 3/30/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
>
> I can't find it now, but I had an ad, and I think it's been mentioned here
> before, about their "Hobo" train set that was a battery operated F-7 using
> an Athearn shell. The idea was, it ran around the layout on it's own, while
> you had to keep out of it's way with your regular locomotive. (Since it was
> basically running "out of control")
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13764 From: jim heckard Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: mystery power truck
     W Jay W,
 
      Just remember the pictures I sent of the K&O motor were NOT for the battery operated "Hobo". This motor set up I sent was one you controlled from a power pack. Two different items entirely.
 
                                                 Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:09 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: mystery power truck

 

Hi Jim H., Don G. and Don D.,

Thanks for filling me in what a K&O setup was; There was some discussion here about the "Hobo" item before, (thanks for the photo of the motor and power truck set-up today, Jim), and I remember seeing a whole factory fresh case of them sold on eBay about two years ago - there is information on them on the Tony's Trains website, I believe.

I am still trying to place that motor with the "U" shaped magnet or frame that I showed. I know I have seen it before...no time available now, will do some research tonight.

W. Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Grant" <grantdono@. ..>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] mystery power truck
>
>
> K & O (a Japanese Co) made small permanent magnet battery motors for small
> model boats in the 1950's and 1960's.
> Best,
> Don Grant
>
> --- On Tue, 3/30/10, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> I can't find it now, but I had an ad, and I think it's been mentioned here
> before, about their "Hobo" train set that was a battery operated F-7 using
> an Athearn shell. The idea was, it ran around the layout on it's own, while
> you had to keep out of it's way with your regular locomotive. (Since it was
> basically running "out of control")
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@ ...
> http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
> Owner
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13765 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: New Acquisition
Rick,

Over the past 30 years I have had success with controlling (stopping) zinc rot by painting the affected area with ACC.

I use the thinnest (like water) type of ACC with a slow setting speed.  I have a supply of 10c paint brushes to use for painting, if needed.

I have a couple of Athearn tank cars with ACC painted underframe parts done in the middle 1970's that are still going solid.

Garry Spear

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 2:12 AM, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
 

A member of my club had a sale last Saturday to liquidate a sizable
portion of his models. He and his wife are relocating for health reasons
according the e-mail announcement that was sent out. Most of what was
being sold were models of recent manufacturing age, but I did find a
couple of items of interest to this group.
Amongst the Intermountain, Red Caboose and P2K kits I came across an
old Roundhouse metal kit for a Frisco truss side boxcar. There is a bit
of zinc rot beginning to show on the painted sides, with small portions
of the paint flaking off, but most of the other castings seem to be
pretty clean. Hopefully any more deterioration will be slow and I can
paint them up and not have to worry about it for years. The other
envelopes for the details and trucks were still sealed so they are also
hopefully in good shape. Not sure of the exact age of this kit, but the
instructions list and address on Anza Street in LA. It pre-dates zip
codes, as the address says Los Angeles 24, CA, no zip following. I paid
$10 for this.
The other item which is perhaps of slightly less interest to the
group is a brass RS unit from Alco Models. I can't identify the exact
version at sight like some people, but I could tell that it was a '50s
era loco. That makes it appropriate for the second era I model, the
early '60s. I had to pull out the old Diesel Spotter's Guide and my old
Alco Models catalog to determine that it's an RSD-4/5. The two units are
identical externally according to the DSG. I got this one for $50.
The other things that I picked up were from P2K, Intermountain,
Branchline and Stewart, so are not of interest to our discussions here.

--

Rick Jones

In the 1960s people took LSD to make the world look weird. Now
the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it look normal.


Group: vintageHO Message: 13766 From: Rick Jones Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: New Acquisition
Garry Spear wrote:
>
> Over the past 30 years I have had success with controlling (stopping)
> zinc rot by painting the affected area with ACC.
>
> I use the thinnest (like water) type of ACC with a slow setting speed.
> I have a supply of 10c paint brushes to use for painting, if needed.
>
> I have a couple of Athearn tank cars with ACC painted underframe parts
> done in the middle 1970's that are still going solid.

Any problems with regular paint then holding to the ACC?

--

Rick Jones

A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13767 From: dayers2666 Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Comet slag car ?
Does anyone have a Comet HO slag car ? Or know where one can be obtained ?

I have a picture of one from an old magazine, and it is definitely different from the Authenticast slag car, with circular ribs on the slag pot yoke.

Also I wouldn't mind picking up one or two Authenticast slag cars, if the price wasn't too much :)

Thanks,
Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13768 From: Garry Spear Date: 3/31/2010
Subject: Re: New Acquisition
No problem that I remember.

BUT I prime the area to be painted with a best quality HARD automotive
type primer, I'm using Krylon right now. I also, paint the
underframs with Krylon flat black. But I have used Flowquil over hard
prime.

Be sure to check the type of paint you are using over the primer.

Always test and check. I had a Kitbashed PRR heavywigth go
crisp-be-critters with the professional painter. I gave him specific
instructions on what to use for the final coat. His LHS was currently
out of my specified overcoat, but they had a better solution.

HA!

Garry Spear

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
> Garry Spear wrote:
>>
>> Over the past 30 years I have had success with controlling (stopping)
>> zinc rot by painting the affected area with ACC.
>>
>> I use the thinnest (like water) type of ACC with a slow setting speed.
>> I have a supply of 10c paint brushes to use for painting, if needed.
>>
>> I have a couple of Athearn tank cars with ACC painted underframe parts
>> done in the middle 1970's that are still going solid.
>
>    Any problems with regular paint then holding to the ACC?
>
> --
>
>                   Rick Jones
>
> A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13769 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/2/2010
Subject: Re: Comet slag car ?
Hi Dave, Have alwsys been interested in those slag cars and hot ladle cars, but have none of the older vintage models as whenever they do show up on eBay, they fetch higher prices as two groups are competing for them, Vintage HO collectors and current steel industry HO modelers.
The only one I have in my collection is a cool later generation Red Ball kit issued circa 1980. Jay

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "dayers2666" <dave@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a Comet HO slag car ? Or know where one can be obtained ?
>
> I have a picture of one from an old magazine, and it is definitely different from the Authenticast slag car, with circular ribs on the slag pot yoke.
>
> Also I wouldn't mind picking up one or two Authenticast slag cars, if the price wasn't too much :)
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13770 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 4/2/2010
Subject: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Hi All,
 
I just acquired this partially constructed wood Union Pacific M-10000 Streamliner articulated train and my question is, was it built from an early late 1930's or wartime kit that someone started or is it the scrtachbuilt work of a talented long ago modeler?  I do not have access to any of the magazines of that era.   
 
Obviously, the side sheahting with windows has not yet been applied, but I like how open windows were provided for by use of spacer blocks beween the roof and lower body sections and also the scale length of the articulated car sections.  Even the proper cutouts for the shrouded trucks have been made.   Have not received this yet, so do not know if the lead unit is open to accept a power unit/truck the same way that a StromBecKer EMD E-unit may be powered. 
 
Right now, my thinking is that I will most likely simply sand and finish the wood, shroud some trucks and display it with the patent drawings, photo and the UP M-10000 Aluminum Lucky Piece that my mom got from a girl classmate back when her father toured the train when it was new in the late 1930's. 
 
Also attached is an illustration of the prototype patent drawings.
 
W. Jay W.
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13771 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/2/2010
Subject: Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Jay--if you can find any references to articles or ads in MR--I have MR complete --
 
Actually--that goes to all of this list--if you have the "literature citation" I'll look it up for you--then we can discuss it off-list.  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:21 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?

Hi All,
 
I just acquired this partially constructed wood Union Pacific M-10000 Streamliner articulated train and my question is, was it built from an early late 1930's or wartime kit that someone started or is it the scrtachbuilt work of a talented long ago modeler?  I do not have access to any of the magazines of that era.   
 
Obviously, the side sheahting with windows has not yet been applied, but I like how open windows were provided for by use of spacer blocks beween the roof and lower body sections and also the scale length of the articulated car sections.  Even the proper cutouts for the shrouded trucks have been made.   Have not received this yet, so do not know if the lead unit is open to accept a power unit/truck the same way that a StromBecKer EMD E-unit may be powered. 
 
Right now, my thinking is that I will most likely simply sand and finish the wood, shroud some trucks and display it with the patent drawings, photo and the UP M-10000 Aluminum Lucky Piece that my mom got from a girl classmate back when her father toured the train when it was new in the late 1930's. 
 
Also attached is an illustration of the prototype patent drawings.
 
W. Jay W.
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13772 From: Dale Smith Date: 4/2/2010
Subject: Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Just curious, but why can't it be discussed on list? I think we might
all be interested.

Dale

Glenn476 wrote:
>
>
> if you have the "literature citation" I'll look it up for you--then we
> can discuss it off-list. gj
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13773 From: louis niederlander Date: 4/2/2010
Subject: Re: Silvine
I had a Silvine transformer (power pack) with my first HO set in 1958
 
Regards,
 
Louis N

 

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
From: jimheck@...
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:53:49 -0400
Subject: [vintageHO] Silvine
  
          I am searching for some information concerning an HO company called Silvine. The person asking me specifically wants to know when they were in business.
   
                                                   Jim H



 


Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13774 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/3/2010
Subject: Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
If it gets to making copies I stay off-list since on some lists they object
to such. gj
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Smith" <dfsmith26@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or
Scratchbuilt?


> Just curious, but why can't it be discussed on list? I think we might
> all be interested.
>
> Dale
>
> Glenn476 wrote:
>>
>>
>> if you have the "literature citation" I'll look it up for you--then we
>> can discuss it off-list. gj
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13775 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/3/2010
Subject: Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Hi Glenn,

Thanks for your offer. Unless someone remembers "XYZ company made a kit" it will be difficult to determine if this was started from that or was a modeler's unfinished scratchbulit effort. Just like the Zephyrs, the M-10000 captured many imaginations in the hobby when it was new. Both leading hobby magazines featured it, Model Railroader in February of 1934, by publishing plans (which I believe were also included in the early MR Cyclopedia which I have), and Model Craftsman with a two part prototype article published in March and April, 1934. So the inspiration and plans were readily available to a contemporary HO modeler back then.

Unfortunately, lists of magazine product announcements or reviews for pre-late 1940's period are not available and a comprehensive index of advertisments, the latter only helpful if a company name is known, is not available either. So I was hoping that my inquiry would stir someone's memory about a possible early kit, giving me more direction to go on.

The model came out of the estate of an older, long time hobby dealer, the seller incorporates this description in her lstings: "About 1993, we purchased what was left of an elderly deceased man's train and hobby store items. He owned a hobby store in New York City in the 1950s and then later moved and opened his hobby store in Elizabeth, NJ in the late 1960s. He had the type of hobby store that you find inside of a hardware store. He was also an avid model builder. We have a photo album of him building huge layouts from scratch. He belonged to a model train club. We are slowly selling off items from this estate."

So even with that provenance, the model's origins are obscure. Absent any information about some sort of early kit, I'd say the odds favor it being the beginning of someone's unfinished scratchbuilding effort.

Again, thanks for the offer of assistance.

Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
>
> Jay--if you can find any references to articles or ads in MR--I have MR complete --
>
> Actually--that goes to all of this list--if you have the "literature citation" I'll look it up for you--then we can discuss it off-list. gj
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jay Wanczyk
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:21 AM
> Subject: [vintageHO] UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just acquired this partially constructed wood Union Pacific M-10000 Streamliner articulated train and my question is, was it built from an early late 1930's or wartime kit that someone started or is it the scrtachbuilt work of a talented long ago modeler? I do not have access to any of the magazines of that era.
>
> Obviously, the side sheahting with windows has not yet been applied, but I like how open windows were provided for by use of spacer blocks beween the roof and lower body sections and also the scale length of the articulated car sections. Even the proper cutouts for the shrouded trucks have been made. Have not received this yet, so do not know if the lead unit is open to accept a power unit/truck the same way that a StromBecKer EMD E-unit may be powered.
>
> Right now, my thinking is that I will most likely simply sand and finish the wood, shroud some trucks and display it with the patent drawings, photo and the UP M-10000 Aluminum Lucky Piece that my mom got from a girl classmate back when her father toured the train when it was new in the late 1930's.
>
> Also attached is an illustration of the prototype patent drawings.
>
>
> W. Jay W.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13776 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/3/2010
Subject: Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or Scratchbuilt?
Not that I would mind, but that is wise when dealing with copyrighted
material. Moist of what we deal with the copyright has probably expired,
but better safe than sorry.

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or
Scratchbuilt?


> If it gets to making copies I stay off-list since on some lists they
> object
> to such. gj
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dale Smith" <dfsmith26@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] UP M-10000 Streamliner Trainset - Vintage Kit or
> Scratchbuilt?
>
>
>> Just curious, but why can't it be discussed on list? I think we might
>> all be interested.
>>
>> Dale
>>
>> Glenn476 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> if you have the "literature citation" I'll look it up for you--then we
>>> can discuss it off-list. gj
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13777 From: rcjge Date: 4/3/2010
Subject: Lionel HO collecting
Hey Gents:

I'm sorting my collection and I was wondering if anyone on this list is collecting Lionel HO? I have a nice Lionel HO Pacific. It runs but needs tuning, lubing.... It is in great cosmetic condition however. If you're interested contact me off list....

Thanks,
Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13778 From: Matthew Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO collecting
Gareth,

My apologies for piggybacking off your post but does anyone know whether or not the Lionel HO Pacific was made by Fleischmann for Lionel? I read that on another list and in looking at the catalog cuts from 1959 in Model Railroader the cab appears to be very German looking.

Just curious.

Thanks
Matt Coleman

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Gents:
>
> I'm sorting my collection and I was wondering if anyone on this list is collecting Lionel HO? I have a nice Lionel HO Pacific. It runs but needs tuning, lubing.... It is in great cosmetic condition however. If you're interested contact me off list....
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13779 From: rcjge Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel HO collecting
Hey Matt!

You on permanent shore leave yet? In what way would you say the cab is Germanic in style?

-Gareth



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
>
> Gareth,
>
> My apologies for piggybacking off your post but does anyone know whether or not the Lionel HO Pacific was made by Fleischmann for Lionel? I read that on another list and in looking at the catalog cuts from 1959 in Model Railroader the cab appears to be very German looking.
>
> Just curious.
>
> Thanks
> Matt Coleman
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Gents:
> >
> > I'm sorting my collection and I was wondering if anyone on this list is collecting Lionel HO? I have a nice Lionel HO Pacific. It runs but needs tuning, lubing.... It is in great cosmetic condition however. If you're interested contact me off list....
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Gareth
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13780 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Happy Easter
Group,

Happy Easter to all!

Good day for me to just relax and work on my railroad. Considering my cat decimated a whole forest last night sometime while I was sleeping, it could use some work now!

-Steve Neubaum
Group: vintageHO Message: 13781 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Lionel Plastic HO Pacific
Matt C,
 
          I have sent two pictures to try to answer your questions about any connection between Lionel HO Pacifics and Fleischmann. The first picture is of a Lionel Pacific and the second is a John English (metal) Pacific.
 
    During 1958 Lionel wanted to start producing their own HO .Up till then they had used other manufactures like Rivarossi and Athearn to produce what they sold. They ( Lionel ) bought out HObbyline from John English  and by 1959 had reworked the dies to produce some of their own HO.  While HObbyline / John English did not produce a plastic model of a Pacific he did have a  metal Pacific which he sold under the John English name.
 
   From everything I have learned is that the Lionel Pacific is a copy of the earlier John English metal Pacific. I don't know of any connection to Fleischmann ( not even parts made for Lionel ) since Lionel reworked HObbyline / John English dies or created their own in 1959 when the first Lionel Pacific was sold. Includes tender design too.
 
   As for the cab being German in design I can't affirm or deny that. I'm petty sure the original John English Pacific, which became the basis for the Lionel Pacific, was a copy of an American prototype.
 
   I feel it might be helpful if you have access to the Greenberg's Guide to Lionel HO Trains by Vince Rosa and George Horan to read. Hope this helps. 
 
                                    Jim H
 
  
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13782 From: oljoe@bex.net Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel Plastic HO Pacific [2 Attachments]
Jim....
That Lionel Pacific looked terrible and ran even worse.
Kind of a leeping lena if you know what I mean. On the other
hand The Hobbytown Pacific ran well and even better if one
spent a little time and effort on it. How about those
see thru spoked drivers - but I'm a sucker for that kind
of driver. Bought a complete kit for $15 and it ran
well.

Hobbyline did several plastic steamers. Seems to me
they did a Pacific and a Mikado but they never sold
power conversions for them. They also did a particularly
ugly saddle tank switcher - along the lines of a
similar Mantua offering. Don't remember if they ever
did a powered saddle tank.

Joe O'Loughlin

jim heckard wrote:
>
> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
>
> Matt C,
>
> I have sent two pictures to try to answer your questions about
> any connection between Lionel HO Pacifics and Fleischmann. The first
> picture is of a Lionel Pacific and the second is a John English (metal)
> Pacific.
>
> During 1958 Lionel wanted to start producing their own HO .Up till
> then they had used other manufactures like Rivarossi and Athearn to
> produce what they sold. They ( Lionel ) bought out HObbyline from John
> English and by 1959 had reworked the dies to produce some of their own
> HO. While HObbyline / John English did not produce a plastic model of a
> Pacific he did have a metal Pacific which he sold under the John
> English name.
>
> From everything I have learned is that the Lionel Pacific is a copy
> of the earlier John English metal Pacific. I don't know of any
> connection to Fleischmann ( not even parts made for Lionel ) since
> Lionel reworked HObbyline / John English dies or created their own in
> 1959 when the first Lionel Pacific was sold. Includes tender design too.
>
> As for the cab being German in design I can't affirm or deny
> that. I'm petty sure the original John English Pacific, which became the
> basis for the Lionel Pacific, was a copy of an American prototype.
>
> I feel it might be helpful if you have access to the Greenberg's
> Guide to Lionel HO Trains by Vince Rosa and George Horan to read. Hope
> this helps.
>
> Jim H
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13783 From: jim heckard Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel Plastic HO Pacific
Hi Joe,

I agree that the Lionel Pacific Steam engines were not the best.

I think you mean John English ( powered metal Pacific with spoked
drivers ) when you said Hobbytown. Hobbytown made no steam that I know of.
Have to be careful not to mix the names Hobbytown and HObbyline ( John
English plastic ).Also have to watch items sold under the John English name
were metal and the HObbyline name plastic.

HObbyline did make a number plastic steam engines but no Pacific or
Mikado Again John English ( metal ) made both. The biggest plastic steam
engine HObbyline made was a static Berkshire. There was a power unit by Sims
that you could install to power it as the plastic kit was highly detailed.
HObbyline also made a plastic 0-4-0 Yardbird that came as a static model or
a powered version. That HObbyline 0-4-0t Saddle tank engine was also sold as
a static kit or you could get a powered version. This saddle tank switcher
design was sold to Lionel and became their powered version #0605 with minor
modification to the body to take the bigger Lionel motor.

Jim H



----- Original Message -----
From: <oljoe@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Lionel Plastic HO Pacific


> Jim....
> That Lionel Pacific looked terrible and ran even worse.
> Kind of a leeping lena if you know what I mean. On the other
> hand The Hobbytown Pacific ran well and even better if one
> spent a little time and effort on it. How about those
> see thru spoked drivers - but I'm a sucker for that kind
> of driver. Bought a complete kit for $15 and it ran
> well.
>
> Hobbyline did several plastic steamers. Seems to me
> they did a Pacific and a Mikado but they never sold
> power conversions for them. They also did a particularly
> ugly saddle tank switcher - along the lines of a
> similar Mantua offering. Don't remember if they ever
> did a powered saddle tank.
>
> Joe O'Loughlin
>
> jim heckard wrote:
>>
>> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
>>
>> Matt C,
>>
>> I have sent two pictures to try to answer your questions about
>> any connection between Lionel HO Pacifics and Fleischmann. The first
>> picture is of a Lionel Pacific and the second is a John English (metal)
>> Pacific.
>>
>> During 1958 Lionel wanted to start producing their own HO .Up till
>> then they had used other manufactures like Rivarossi and Athearn to
>> produce what they sold. They ( Lionel ) bought out HObbyline from John
>> English and by 1959 had reworked the dies to produce some of their own
>> HO. While HObbyline / John English did not produce a plastic model of a
>> Pacific he did have a metal Pacific which he sold under the John
>> English name.
>>
>> From everything I have learned is that the Lionel Pacific is a copy
>> of the earlier John English metal Pacific. I don't know of any
>> connection to Fleischmann ( not even parts made for Lionel ) since
>> Lionel reworked HObbyline / John English dies or created their own in
>> 1959 when the first Lionel Pacific was sold. Includes tender design too.
>>
>> As for the cab being German in design I can't affirm or deny
>> that. I'm petty sure the original John English Pacific, which became the
>> basis for the Lionel Pacific, was a copy of an American prototype.
>>
>> I feel it might be helpful if you have access to the Greenberg's
>> Guide to Lionel HO Trains by Vince Rosa and George Horan to read. Hope
>> this helps.
>>
>> Jim H
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13784 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/4/2010
Subject: Re: Happy Easter
Are you sure it's Easter--it's all white outside in far northern California!  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 10:13 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Happy Easter

Group,

Happy Easter to all!

Good day for me to just relax and work on my railroad. Considering my cat decimated a whole forest last night sometime while I was sleeping, it could use some work now!

-Steve Neubaum
Group: vintageHO Message: 13785 From: oljoe@bex.net Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel Plastic HO Pacific
Jim....
I misspoke when I said Hobbytown (have several of those). I
meant to say Hobbyline. I had already posted when I remembered
the Hobbyline Berkshire - a great, well detailed item. Should
have checked my 50's catalogs. Also found an 0-4-0 slopeback
in plastic - again much like the Mantua.
Joe O'Loughlin


jim heckard wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
> I agree that the Lionel Pacific Steam engines were not the best.
>
> I think you mean John English ( powered metal Pacific with spoked
> drivers ) when you said Hobbytown. Hobbytown made no steam that I know of.
> Have to be careful not to mix the names Hobbytown and HObbyline ( John
> English plastic ).Also have to watch items sold under the John English name
> were metal and the HObbyline name plastic.
>
> HObbyline did make a number plastic steam engines but no Pacific or
> Mikado Again John English ( metal ) made both. The biggest plastic steam
> engine HObbyline made was a static Berkshire. There was a power unit by Sims
> that you could install to power it as the plastic kit was highly detailed.
> HObbyline also made a plastic 0-4-0 Yardbird that came as a static model or
> a powered version. That HObbyline 0-4-0t Saddle tank engine was also sold as
> a static kit or you could get a powered version. This saddle tank switcher
> design was sold to Lionel and became their powered version #0605 with minor
> modification to the body to take the bigger Lionel motor.
>
> Jim H
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <oljoe@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2010 5:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Lionel Plastic HO Pacific
>
>
>
>>Jim....
>>That Lionel Pacific looked terrible and ran even worse.
>>Kind of a leeping lena if you know what I mean. On the other
>>hand The Hobbytown Pacific ran well and even better if one
>>spent a little time and effort on it. How about those
>>see thru spoked drivers - but I'm a sucker for that kind
>>of driver. Bought a complete kit for $15 and it ran
>>well.
>>
>>Hobbyline did several plastic steamers. Seems to me
>>they did a Pacific and a Mikado but they never sold
>>power conversions for them. They also did a particularly
>>ugly saddle tank switcher - along the lines of a
>>similar Mantua offering. Don't remember if they ever
>>did a powered saddle tank.
>>
>>Joe O'Loughlin
>>
>>jim heckard wrote:
>>
>>>[Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
>>>
>>>Matt C,
>>>
>>> I have sent two pictures to try to answer your questions about
>>>any connection between Lionel HO Pacifics and Fleischmann. The first
>>>picture is of a Lionel Pacific and the second is a John English (metal)
>>>Pacific.
>>>
>>> During 1958 Lionel wanted to start producing their own HO .Up till
>>>then they had used other manufactures like Rivarossi and Athearn to
>>>produce what they sold. They ( Lionel ) bought out HObbyline from John
>>>English and by 1959 had reworked the dies to produce some of their own
>>>HO. While HObbyline / John English did not produce a plastic model of a
>>>Pacific he did have a metal Pacific which he sold under the John
>>>English name.
>>>
>>> From everything I have learned is that the Lionel Pacific is a copy
>>>of the earlier John English metal Pacific. I don't know of any
>>>connection to Fleischmann ( not even parts made for Lionel ) since
>>>Lionel reworked HObbyline / John English dies or created their own in
>>>1959 when the first Lionel Pacific was sold. Includes tender design too.
>>>
>>> As for the cab being German in design I can't affirm or deny
>>>that. I'm petty sure the original John English Pacific, which became the
>>>basis for the Lionel Pacific, was a copy of an American prototype.
>>>
>>> I feel it might be helpful if you have access to the Greenberg's
>>>Guide to Lionel HO Trains by Vince Rosa and George Horan to read. Hope
>>>this helps.
>>>
>>> Jim H
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13786 From: jim heckard Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: A.H.C.
 
 

          Looking for some information concerning a hobby store AHC that was located in New York City. Especially how long in business and when they went out of business. Maybe a site to go to. Also want to find out about Bernard B Winton who I understand was instrumental in started and running AHC. Thanks ahead of time.
 
                          Jim H
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13787 From: tom leen Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Hi Jim,
I googled AHC hobby new york and came up with American Hobby Center founded in 1931.  From the sites I saw mentioning it, it sounds like it may still be in business.
Tom L.

--- On Mon, 4/5/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] A.H.C.
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 1:10 PM

 
 
 

          Looking for some information concerning a hobby store AHC that was located in New York City. Especially how long in business and when they went out of business. Maybe a site to go to. Also want to find out about Bernard B Winton who I understand was instrumental in started and running AHC. Thanks ahead of time.
 
                          Jim H
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13788 From: dayers2666 Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: Comet slag car ?
Jay,

I agree that the eBay prices for the old slag car kits are way too high, but what ya gonna do...
And a lot og people don't know the difference between the GMC hot metal ladle car and the Authenticast slag car !

One can make a not-too-bad car from the RedBall kit. See mine about halfway down this page: http://daveayers.com/Modeling/SteelModels.htm

Dave


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave, Have alwsys been interested in those slag cars and hot ladle cars, but have none of the older vintage models as whenever they do show up on eBay, they fetch higher prices as two groups are competing for them, Vintage HO collectors and current steel industry HO modelers.
> The only one I have in my collection is a cool later generation Red Ball kit issued circa 1980. Jay
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "dayers2666" <dave@> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have a Comet HO slag car ? Or know where one can be obtained ?
> >
> > I have a picture of one from an old magazine, and it is definitely different from the Authenticast slag car, with circular ribs on the slag pot yoke.
> >
> > Also I wouldn't mind picking up one or two Authenticast slag cars, if the price wasn't too much :)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dave
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13789 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
When I came into HO in 1958, AHC was a discount/closeout hobby store much like Trainland is today.  I have been into and out of the hobby several times since the '80's and did not see it advertised anymore in Model Railroader when I became active again in the '90's and since 2000.  It was a fabulous resource before 1980. 
Don Staton in VA.
=====================================================

jim heckard wrote:
 

 
 

          Looking for some information concerning a hobby store AHC that was located in New York City. Especially how long in business and when they went out of business. Maybe a site to go to. Also want to find out about Bernard B Winton who I understand was instrumental in started and running AHC. Thanks ahead of time.
 
                          Jim H
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13790 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Jim and All:

Submitted comments about AHC agree with my recollections.  AHC was my primary ad focus as a young person in the mid-1950's.  I was young, poor, and didn't even live near a railroad.  But I had been bitten by the bug somehow and AHC promised many of the things I wanted at low prices.  I wore their ads down to the paper fibers.  Yes, I suspect their offerings included a lot of overstocks.  I think it was where I bought my first pin vice and piece of flex track.  Somehow I think they also sent out flyers, but they would have been pulp versions and I did not retain any.

Now E&H Model Hobbies was another place I fanaticized about.  I still have their brown cover, small format catalog ala-1958.  Still refer to it too, as it is handy and my use of it is often prompted by this List when I say to myself, "NOW what are they talking about?"

Dennis Thompson
Odessa/Ritzville, WA




At 07:46 AM 4/5/2010, you wrote:


Hi Jim,
I googled AHC hobby new york and came up with American Hobby Center founded in 1931.  From the sites I saw mentioning it, it sounds like it may still be in business.
Tom L.

--- On Mon, 4/5/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] A.H.C.
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 1:10 PM

 
 
 

          Looking for some information concerning a hobby store AHC that was located in New York City. Especially how long in business and when they went out of business. Maybe a site to go to. Also want to find out about Bernard B Winton who I understand was instrumental in started and running AHC. Thanks ahead of time.
 
                          Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13791 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
When I was stationed at what was left of the Brooklyn Navy Yard from 1968 to 1971 I worked part time at AHC, Ma Webster's, and Polk's (at different times). Worked in the "back room" in the mail order department. Bernard Winston was the founder/owner (IIRC), and his wife and son both worked in the place. For the time it was one of the largest operations in the country. I do recall that the catalogs all said that the business was founded in 1931. During the time I was there back orders were a real problem because of manufacturers that were comparatively small running out of items, and a longish dock strike (I hope I'm remembering this correctly)that stopped imports for quite a while. This was when most of us didn't realize how much of the stuff with domestic labels was imported. Again, IIRC, as one of the larger retailers with an in house wholesaler they got jobber discounts on merchandise so they were able to sell for a lot less. I think I recall one episode of them getting a chunk of a shop that was going out of busines at auction, but (I think it was Metro in New York City--sound right??)that shop's inventory went out in lots. Bernie actually got his name in model airplanes, first, I think. Hadn't seen their ads for years, possibly decades, but I do notice that there is an AHC on the 'net that claims to have been started in 1931; no idea if the family is still involved or not.

Anything more I can help with, Jim?

By the way; someone mentioned E&H. I little bell in my head says that was the Goldberg brothers, who were also Gem. I'm absolutely not sure about that, though. Correction welcome.

Frank Bongiovanni
Group: vintageHO Message: 13792 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
I began model railroading in 1952, at the age of 10. Somewhere around
1957, a like minded buddy and I took the bus into NYC from Englewood NJ
(not a big deal in those days) and got ourselves over AHC to buy some
items (I don't recall if we had a plan or just wanted some "stuff"). The
place was a little bit disappointing - the store was a second floor
walk-up with not much in the way of a real "display" area. As I recall,
we had to ask for various items that were brought out from the shelves.
Whether the guy behind the counter was an employee or the owner I never
found out, but he wasn't much enthused about assisting two kids -
although there were no other customers in the place, it appeared that we
were keeping him from more important activities. He also gave us a hard
time because we using a check on an out-of-town bank and didn't have
driver's licenses or other similar forms of ID. I got the impression
that 99% of their business was mail order. Needless to say, we never
returned.

Mike

Dennis Thompson wrote:
>
>
> Jim and All:
>
> Submitted comments about AHC agree with my recollections. AHC was my
> primary ad focus as a young person in the mid-1950's. I was young,
> poor, and didn't even live near a railroad. But I had been bitten by
> the bug somehow and AHC promised many of the things I wanted at low
> prices. I wore their ads down to the paper fibers. Yes, I suspect
> their offerings included a lot of overstocks. I think it was where I
> bought my first pin vice and piece of flex track. Somehow I think they
> also sent out flyers, but they would have been pulp versions and I did
> not retain any.
>
> Now E&H Model Hobbies was another place I fanaticized about. I still
> have their brown cover, small format catalog ala-1958. Still refer to
> it too, as it is handy and my use of it is often prompted by this List
> when I say to myself, "NOW what are they talking about?"
>
> Dennis Thompson
> Odessa/Ritzville, WA
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13793 From: John Barlow Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C....They're There!
Folks,
 
An Internet search turned up two addresses:
 
America's Hobby Center, Inc.
225 West 35th Street
New York, NY 10001
(212) 244-0525
 
263 West 30 Street
New York, NY 10001
(212) 675-8922
 
Website? Not functioning. Best give call.
 
John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
 
 
 
 


--- On Mon, 4/5/10, Dennis Thompson <dbt@...> wrote:

From: Dennis Thompson <dbt@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A.H.C.
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 9:51 AM

 
Jim and All:

Submitted comments about AHC agree with my recollections.  AHC was my primary ad focus as a young person in the mid-1950's.  I was young, poor, and didn't even live near a railroad.  But I had been bitten by the bug somehow and AHC promised many of the things I wanted at low prices.  I wore their ads down to the paper fibers.  Yes, I suspect their offerings included a lot of overstocks.  I think it was where I bought my first pin vice and piece of flex track.  Somehow I think they also sent out flyers, but they would have been pulp versions and I did not retain any.

Now E&H Model Hobbies was another place I fanaticized about.  I still have their brown cover, small format catalog ala-1958.  Still refer to it too, as it is handy and my use of it is often prompted by this List when I say to myself, "NOW what are they talking about?"

Dennis Thompson
Odessa/Ritzville, WA




At 07:46 AM 4/5/2010, you wrote:


Hi Jim,
I googled AHC hobby new york and came up with American Hobby Center founded in 1931.  From the sites I saw mentioning it, it sounds like it may still be in business.
Tom L.

--- On Mon, 4/5/10, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:

From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
Subject: [vintageHO] A.H.C.
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 1:10 PM

 
 
 

          Looking for some information concerning a hobby store AHC that was located in New York City. Especially how long in business and when they went out of business. Maybe a site to go to. Also want to find out about Bernard B Winton who I understand was instrumental in started and running AHC. Thanks ahead of time.
 
                          Jim H

Group: vintageHO Message: 13794 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Hello Jim    I have a 1970 catalog from  AHC, I would be happy to send it to you if you  could use it.   Roger Aultman
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:10 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] A.H.C.

 

 
 

          Looking for some information concerning a hobby store AHC that was located in New York City. Especially how long in business and when they went out of business. Maybe a site to go to. Also want to find out about Bernard B Winton who I understand was instrumental in started and running AHC. Thanks ahead of time.
 
                          Jim H
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13795 From: John Barlow Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: E&H (was: A.H.C.)
There was a shop name I remember from Northeast Philadelphia (Mayfair section, on Frankford Avenue north of Cottman Avenue.)  The store manager was named Tom in those late-1950's years, tall and lanky. I learned a few years ago he went from that to a position with Sterling Models of Philadelphia. Thereafter...no idea.
 
The store moved to either Cheltenham Avenue or Germantown Avenue by the late-1960's (say, 1967), the last time I was in one. I did not see Tom there, but the displayed inventory was seemingly much greater than the Mayfair store of a decade earlier. The store area was much larger. I did not get a chance to revisit it. What happened to E&H thereafter I leave to someone else to tell.
 
John
 
 
 
 
 
 
--- On Mon, 4/5/10, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:

From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A.H.C.
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 10:37 AM

I began model railroading in 1952, at the age of 10. Somewhere around
1957, a like minded buddy and I took the bus into NYC from Englewood NJ
(not a big deal in those days) and got ourselves over AHC to buy some
items (I don't recall if we had a plan or just wanted some "stuff"). The
place was a little bit disappointing - the store was a second floor
walk-up with not much in the way of a real "display" area. As I recall,
we had to ask for various items that were brought out from the shelves.
Whether the guy behind the counter was an employee or the owner I never
found out, but he wasn't much enthused about assisting two kids -
although there were no other customers in the place, it appeared that we
were keeping him from more important activities. He also gave us a hard
time because we using a check on an out-of-town bank and didn't have
driver's licenses or other similar forms of ID. I got the impression
that 99% of their business was mail order. Needless to say, we never
returned.

Mike

Dennis Thompson wrote:

>
> Jim and All:
>
> Submitted comments about AHC agree with my recollections.  AHC was my
> primary ad focus as a young person in the mid-1950's.  I was young,
> poor, and didn't even live near a railroad.  But I had been bitten by
> the bug somehow and AHC promised many of the things I wanted at low
> prices.  I wore their ads down to the paper fibers.  Yes, I suspect
> their offerings included a lot of overstocks.  I think it was where I
> bought my first pin vice and piece of flex track.  Somehow I think they
> also sent out flyers, but they would have been pulp versions and I did
> not retain any.
>
> Now E&H Model Hobbies was another place I fanaticized about.  I still
> have their brown cover, small format catalog ala-1958.  Still refer to
> it too, as it is handy and my use of it is often prompted by this List
> when I say to myself, "NOW what are they talking about?"
>
> Dennis Thompson
> Odessa/Ritzville, WA
>


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Group: vintageHO Message: 13796 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
AHC was still around, and I had gone into the store... which was located on West 22nd Street at the time, around 1999 or 2000. The guy behind the counter wasn't particularly interested in helping my son and I, and pretty much everything I asked him about was out of stock. We left very disappointed. I think that there may have been another AHC store in Dunellen, NJ, at the same time. We took the ad that had drawn us to AHC out to Trainland, and asked if they would match the price in the ad. He kind of grumbled and laughed at the same time, told us  ' NO '... and told us to go ' Back to the City ' and ask if they had ANY of the sales items in stock at all ! Meanwhile, I had never mentioned AHC or the fact that many items were out of stock. My parents used to take me to Trainland when I was a kid, I still go there as an adult. I believe that AHC has been gone for quite some years now.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13797 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
I've been to AHC , back in the 70s with the same experience...he didn't seem to want to bother.  The Model Railroad Shop is located in Dunellen, NJ.  They, and Walthers, advertised in the first issue of Model Railroader
Group: vintageHO Message: 13798 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Ha! We all sure visited the same AHC! My dad took me there, on W 22nd in the mid 1960's and they did not have what he wanted. A few years later when we began going into the city as teens, I think we stopped in once or twice, but it was out of the way for us, relatively small and we preferred visiting Polks or The Model Railway Equipment Co. in midtown. BTW, anyone know when Polk's shut down their Fifth Avenue Store? W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, BillyDee53@... wrote:
>
> I've been to AHC , back in the 70s with the same experience...he didn't
> seem to want to bother. The Model Railroad Shop is located in Dunellen, NJ.
> They, and Walthers, advertised in the first issue of Model Railroader
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13799 From: Walter Bayer Date: 4/5/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13800 From: Matthew Date: 4/6/2010
Subject: Re: Lionel Plastic HO Pacific
Jim and Gareth,

First, Jim, your posts and photos answers my core question.

And Gareth, the reason I asked about a possible Fleischman connection was in the November and December 1959 MR there is a color foldout of the Lionel HO line for 1960. The cut for the Pacific, which is an 'enhanced' photo, shows a cab which has the window section angled inwards as per the German style to avoid clearance problems. The catalog cut doesn't look anything like a US Pacific.

I never saw a Lionel Pacific in the flesh and Jim's photos answer the question about the real appearance of the photo.

And to answer the 'shore leave' question, the answer is No for the moment. One final deployment is a couple of weeks and then retirement in September of this year.

Matt

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Matt C,
>
> I have sent two pictures to try to answer your questions about any connection between Lionel HO Pacifics and Fleischmann. The first picture is of a Lionel Pacific and the second is a John English (metal) Pacific.
>
> During 1958 Lionel wanted to start producing their own HO .Up till then they had used other manufactures like Rivarossi and Athearn to produce what they sold. They ( Lionel ) bought out HObbyline from John English and by 1959 had reworked the dies to produce some of their own HO. While HObbyline / John English did not produce a plastic model of a Pacific he did have a metal Pacific which he sold under the John English name.
>
> From everything I have learned is that the Lionel Pacific is a copy of the earlier John English metal Pacific. I don't know of any connection to Fleischmann ( not even parts made for Lionel ) since Lionel reworked HObbyline / John English dies or created their own in 1959 when the first Lionel Pacific was sold. Includes tender design too.
>
> As for the cab being German in design I can't affirm or deny that. I'm petty sure the original John English Pacific, which became the basis for the Lionel Pacific, was a copy of an American prototype.
>
> I feel it might be helpful if you have access to the Greenberg's Guide to Lionel HO Trains by Vince Rosa and George Horan to read. Hope this helps.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13801 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 4/6/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
Polk's was still in business in the early 80's.  They didn't have what I was looking for, either
Group: vintageHO Message: 13802 From: John Barlow Date: 4/6/2010
Subject: Re: A.H.C.
The Internet-located locations I posted may or may not be still in existence, but Dunellen, New Jersey, is one of those. Maps to their present (?) locations are included, depending upon the directory source. I never dealt with AHC, so their quality of service I cannot attest to. Train World I have, but then I use mailed money orders and take my chances after I telephone to see if an item is in and at what price. That their Internet website cannot be accessed was strange to me...make of that what you will.
 
John Barlow
 

--- On Mon, 4/5/10, MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...> wrote:

From: MRLENGAL2U@... <MRLENGAL2U@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A.H.C.
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 6:41 PM

 
AHC was still around, and I had gone into the store... which was located on West 22nd Street at the time, around 1999 or 2000. The guy behind the counter wasn't particularly interested in helping my son and I, and pretty much everything I asked him about was out of stock. We left very disappointed. I think that there may have been another AHC store in Dunellen, NJ, at the same time. We took the ad that had drawn us to AHC out to Trainland, and asked if they would match the price in the ad. He kind of grumbled and laughed at the same time, told us  ' NO '... and told us to go ' Back to the City ' and ask if they had ANY of the sales items in stock at all ! Meanwhile, I had never mentioned AHC or the fact that many items were out of stock. My parents used to take me to Trainland when I was a kid, I still go there as an adult. I believe that AHC has been gone for quite some years now.

Group: vintageHO Message: 13803 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/8/2010
Subject: Rest of Story Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner - Vintage HO Kit or Scratch
Hi All,

Last week, I posted the seller's photograph of the wood model Union Pacific M-10000 train I had purchased and wondered if it was constructed from an early obscure kit or simply the work of a skilled scratchbuilder, as publish plans were available since 1934.

I received it today, but was somehwat surprised when I opened the package and pulled out what appears to be a Vintage TT Scale model of the M-10000! (It seems to large for N Scale, have to measure it later.

More surprised than disappointed, the smaller scale model will suit my purposes even better as I was planning on displaying it in a small case, adding only balsa shrouded trucks, with some of the patent drawings, maybe a photo and the Union Pacific aluminum lucky piece my mom was given by a classmate way back when. It would fit in a deep framed shadow box now!

Not a case of an intentional seller's deception, either, one of the more reputable, non-railroad oriented sellers I have made multiple purchases from and always been more than satisfied.

Of course, I guess I should have been skeptical of my 99 cent purchase that concluded on April Fools Day, my birthday besides!

Guess I will have to join the Vintage TT Group now, lol!

W. Jay W.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13804 From: tomvanhoy Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Rest of story
Hi,
I am not aware of any TT manufacturer making any such MU. HP made some aluminum railcars, but that was about it. Sounds like a homemade job to me.
Best,
Tom Van Hoy
Group: vintageHO Message: 13805 From: Matthew Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Rest of Story Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner - Vintage HO Kit or Scratch
As a member of the TT_IMS group on groups.yahoo.com we would be delighted to have you join. My love for older scale models includes TT and several of our other members are quite knowledeable about older equipment in the scale.

I agree with the post regarding this being TT -- it may well have been made to TT scale, but I have never heard of anyone offering a TT scale model of the M-10000. There were some wooden display models of it to no particular scale offered in Popular Mechanics back in the 1930s so you may have one of those.

Matt Coleman

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Last week, I posted the seller's photograph of the wood model Union Pacific M-10000 train I had purchased and wondered if it was constructed from an early obscure kit or simply the work of a skilled scratchbuilder, as publish plans were available since 1934.
>
> I received it today, but was somehwat surprised when I opened the package and pulled out what appears to be a Vintage TT Scale model of the M-10000! (It seems to large for N Scale, have to measure it later.
>
> More surprised than disappointed, the smaller scale model will suit my purposes even better as I was planning on displaying it in a small case, adding only balsa shrouded trucks, with some of the patent drawings, maybe a photo and the Union Pacific aluminum lucky piece my mom was given by a classmate way back when. It would fit in a deep framed shadow box now!
>
> Not a case of an intentional seller's deception, either, one of the more reputable, non-railroad oriented sellers I have made multiple purchases from and always been more than satisfied.
>
> Of course, I guess I should have been skeptical of my 99 cent purchase that concluded on April Fools Day, my birthday besides!
>
> Guess I will have to join the Vintage TT Group now, lol!
>
> W. Jay W.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13806 From: RalphB Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Old Kadee couplers
I recently bought five Athearn "blue box" 4-bay hoppers off eBay for my B&O coal train. The seller's description wasn't too accurate, so I wrote and asked for a clarification. The seller responded with a note that all the cars were equipped with KDs. The cars arrived yesterday and I got a bit of a surprise. Yes, the cars do have Kadee couplers, three of them with MK-5s, but it's the other two that caught my attention; these two are equipped with the earlier K-5 that was introduced in the early '50s specifically to be drop-in replacements for the earliest Globe/Athearn cars.

I'll replace the K-5s with the newer #5 couplers, and I'll do to all five cars what I do to almost all my Athearn cars. I remove the snap-on coupler pocket covers and throw 'em in a box; then I drill and tap the coupler pivot boss for a 1-72 screw and put on a modified Kadee coupler pocket cover. Using the 1-72 screws leaves the pivot boss virtually intact, even if my drilling is a couple thousandths off-center.

Ralph
Group: vintageHO Message: 13807 From: The Danish Duke Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Rest of story
It is probably Strombecker. I thought of bidding on one recently.
Earl Poulsen
Vancouver, Washington

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tomvanhoy" <tomvanhoy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I am not aware of any TT manufacturer making any such MU. HP made some aluminum railcars, but that was about it. Sounds like a homemade job to me.
> Best,
> Tom Van Hoy
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13808 From: dhopf1 Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Vintage Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific
I'm working on a friends old Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific gear drive Loco. The original motor seems to weak as it runs about 18" and then stops. I have another vintage Athearn motor which sets in the chassis. This one runs great but the speed is slow, about 60 MPH.

Did these Locos when new, run at a high speed?

Don Hopf
Group: vintageHO Message: 13809 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific
They were not speedy, but ran at a decent speed for operation.
Don Staton in VA.
===========================================
Snipped

dhopf1 wrote:
 

I'm working on a friends old Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific gear drive Loco. The original motor seems to weak as it runs about 18" and then stops. I have another vintage Athearn motor which sets in the chassis. This one runs great but the speed is slow, about 60 MPH.

Did these Locos when new, run at a high speed?

Don Hopf

Group: vintageHO Message: 13810 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific
The Athearn motors were underpowered for this loco.  They also came in the 0-6-0.  In the 4-6-2 they usually overheat and lose magnetism making the motors weak.  I replaced one of mine with an old Globe/Athearn motor with a much larger armature and magnet that worked extremely well.  Those motors were about twice the length of the motor in the 4-6-2 you are working on and came in the old gear drive diesels before the rubber band drives long before the 4-6-2 was made.
Don Staton in VA
=============================================.


Donald R. Staton wrote:
 

They were not speedy, but ran at a decent speed for operation.
Don Staton in VA.
============ ========= ========= ========= ====
Snipped

dhopf1 wrote:

 

I'm working on a friends old Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific gear drive Loco. The original motor seems to weak as it runs about 18" and then stops. I have another vintage Athearn motor which sets in the chassis. This one runs great but the speed is slow, about 60 MPH.

Did these Locos when new, run at a high speed?

Don Hopf

Group: vintageHO Message: 13811 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Parts Catalogs
If anybody thinks it worthwhile, I can send these off to Larry at HOSeeker to get copied and put up.
I just got, 10 minutes ago, a 1951 varney loco and car parts catalog, 35 pages long.
AND, a 1948 Mantua catalog and handbook, 46 pages long.

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13812 From: John H Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Parts Catalogs
Is it worthwhile? Oh hell yes.

John Hagen

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
> If anybody thinks it worthwhile, I can send these off to Larry at HOSeeker to get copied and put up.
> I just got, 10 minutes ago, a 1951 varney loco and car parts catalog, 35 pages long.
> AND, a 1948 Mantua catalog and handbook, 46 pages long.
>
> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13813 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Parts Catalogs
Please do....... Those will be very worthwhile.

I'd also like to offer scans of the 1949 64+ pages Walthers catalog.
But I'd rather not ship the catalog, itself.

Best to ya,
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi

On Apr 9, 2010, at 3:12 PM, John H wrote:

> Is it worthwhile? Oh hell yes.
>
> John Hagen
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> If anybody thinks it worthwhile, I can send these off to Larry at
>> HOSeeker to get copied and put up.
>> I just got, 10 minutes ago, a 1951 varney loco and car parts
>> catalog, 35 pages long.
>> AND, a 1948 Mantua catalog and handbook, 46 pages long.
>>
>> Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13814 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific
The Boston & Maine Historical Society had an article on their web site about repowering the Athearn 4-6-2.  It is since gone and would have to be purchased from them.
 
Brad Smith
Franklin, WI
Group: vintageHO Message: 13815 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 4/9/2010
Subject: In need of a boxcar end
I have an outside-braced Ulrich boxcar.
The ends are finely-fluted dreadnaught style, NOT the braced end (GN Boxcar).
I have the "B" end (brakewheel), but not the "A" end.
1-3/16" wide, not counting the poling pockets, 1-5/16" tall.
I have with it a wrong end, cast, 1-5/16" wide, 1-9/16" tall (not counting poling pockets) with heavier fluting, and a cast coupler pocket end.

Willing to trade or whatever.

Thanks!

Dave
Group: vintageHO Message: 13816 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Rest of Story Re: UP M-10000 Streamliner - Vintage HO Kit or Scratch
Thanks for the replies, Matt, Tom and Earl,

When confronted with the model's smaller than HO scale, I figured it to be less likely that it might be made from a pre-WW-2 TT wood kit, as that was not TT's prime era. Having most of MR and RMC fom the very late 1940's on and while concentrating on HO, I have also read most of what was published regarding TT's " first golden age" and remember seeing those HP MU's, Tom. I have also taken note of some of what we think of as "HO manufacturers" that also produced TT. Lindsay, for one with the HO Stubby using the same main frame as his TT Little Joe, then finally when Kemtron took over production, producing Stubbys gauged for HOn3 and TT, and Little Joes gauged for HOn3, making perfect mine locomotives in our larger scale. (Kemtron Catlogs showing this on HoSeeker)

Matt, thanks, as you have also suggested that the model may also be an indeterminate scale general wood model offered in the late 1930's when the M-10000 was part of the popular culture and modern technology. I enjoy sometimes reading though those old issues of Popular Mechnics - they are all available for free on line reading though google books, and your suggestion gives me another reason to go back and read more!

Thanks for the invitation to your TT group, too. I will consider that after the dedication of our local restored RR station/museum next month as all my spare time has been taken by that endeavor, and I have been bearly been able to keep up with our topics here!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
>
> As a member of the TT_IMS group on groups.yahoo.com we would be delighted to have you join. My love for older scale models includes TT and several of our other members are quite knowledeable about older equipment in the scale.
>
> I agree with the post regarding this being TT -- it may well have been made to TT scale, but I have never heard of anyone offering a TT scale model of the M-10000. There were some wooden display models of it to no particular scale offered in Popular Mechanics back in the 1930s so you may have one of those.
>
> Matt Coleman
Group: vintageHO Message: 13817 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Re: In need of a boxcar end
Hi Dave,

In a pinch, Tichy molds virtually the same 5/5/5 boxcar ends datimg from 1918 in gray stryene, part # 3020 (see link below). However, though the ribs are the correct cross section, spacing and width, the ends have a wider flat margin along each side, indended to fit a wider car. Easy to cut, I retored one Ulrich b/c that way a while back. While OK for a layout operation car, the ends are a bit thicker than the thin diecast metal Ulrich ones.

http://tinyurl.com/ybyj7jt
or
http://www.tichytraingroup.com/index.php?page=view_product.php&id=259&category=Freight+Car+Parts

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
> I have an outside-braced Ulrich boxcar.
> The ends are finely-fluted dreadnaught style, NOT the braced end (GN Boxcar).
> I have the "B" end (brakewheel), but not the "A" end.
> 1-3/16" wide, not counting the poling pockets, 1-5/16" tall.
> I have with it a wrong end, cast, 1-5/16" wide, 1-9/16" tall (not counting poling pockets) with heavier fluting, and a cast coupler pocket end.
>
> Willing to trade or whatever.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13818 From: rcjge Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: A Bowser or PL instead of varney?
Hey Gents:

Can someone confirm for me this is NOT a Varney but rather a PL or Bowser Pacific?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/VINTAGE-VARNEY-PRR-4-6-2-STEAM-LOCOMOTIVE-1739_W0QQitemZ180489704610QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item2a060654a2

Thanks so much!

-Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13819 From: jim heckard Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Ebay Pacific
Gareth,
 
       The Ebay Pacific you ask about is definitely not Varney. It is a Penn Line K-4.  Someone commented it is a Cary body. I couldn't tell you anything about the boiler being Cary so I sent pictures of a Penn Line kit showing the original boiler / cab and frame with drivers. You be the judge if it is PL or Cary but again it is not Varney.
 
                                                Jim H
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13820 From: hooligan Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Pacific
Jim , Gareth , Cary made a boiler to fit this chassis , it was a PRR class K2 . Smaller overall than the K4 . This might well have one of those on it . HH

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Gareth,
>
> The Ebay Pacific you ask about is definitely not Varney. It is a Penn Line K-4. Someone commented it is a Cary body. I couldn't tell you anything about the boiler being Cary so I sent pictures of a Penn Line kit showing the original boiler / cab and frame with drivers. You be the judge if it is PL or Cary but again it is not Varney.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13821 From: toytrain13 Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Re: A Bowser or PL instead of varney?
This looks like a PRR K3s Pacific, boiler by Cary, mounted on a Penn Line K4s chassis. Cheers- Richard White
Group: vintageHO Message: 13822 From: jim heckard Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Pacific
HH,
 
    Thanks . I thought it was a PL  K-4 body with some modification. Different headlight and pilot, etc. Good to know Cary had a K-2 style body. In my vintage collection I don't deal with Cary items.
 
                                                Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: hooligan
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 7:56 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ebay Pacific

 

Jim , Gareth , Cary made a boiler to fit this chassis , it was a PRR class K2 . Smaller overall than the K4 . This might well have one of those on it . HH

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
>
> Gareth,
>
> The Ebay Pacific you ask about is definitely not Varney. It is a Penn Line K-4. Someone commented it is a Cary body. I couldn't tell you anything about the boiler being Cary so I sent pictures of a Penn Line kit showing the original boiler / cab and frame with drivers. You be the judge if it is PL or Cary but again it is not Varney.
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13823 From: rcjge Date: 4/10/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Pacific
Hey fella's:

What struck me immediately was the belpaire firebox. I though Bowser or PL right away but not Vareny.

You guys are great!

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "hooligan" <long95209@...> wrote:
>
> Jim , Gareth , Cary made a boiler to fit this chassis , it was a PRR class K2 . Smaller overall than the K4 . This might well have one of those on it . HH
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
> >
> > Gareth,
> >
> > The Ebay Pacific you ask about is definitely not Varney. It is a Penn Line K-4. Someone commented it is a Cary body. I couldn't tell you anything about the boiler being Cary so I sent pictures of a Penn Line kit showing the original boiler / cab and frame with drivers. You be the judge if it is PL or Cary but again it is not Varney.
> >
> > Jim H
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13824 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: Ebay Pacific
Read the Q&A, they've decided it was a Penn Line with a Cary boiler.

Then look at picture 3, the underside. That mechanism looks Mantua to me!
The way the lead truck is mounted, the shouldered screw on the fiber
drawbar, the way the cover plate is mounted........... . I don't have any
Penn Line to compare with, but it sure looks like my Mantua pacific. Cary
did make the PRR boilers to fit both the Penn Line and Mantua chassis.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 7:29 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ebay Pacific


> Hey fella's:
>
> What struck me immediately was the belpaire firebox. I though Bowser or PL
> right away but not Vareny.
>
> You guys are great!
>
> -Gareth
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "hooligan" <long95209@...> wrote:
>>
>> Jim , Gareth , Cary made a boiler to fit this chassis , it was a PRR
>> class K2 . Smaller overall than the K4 . This might well have one of
>> those on it . HH
>>
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Gareth,
>> >
>> > The Ebay Pacific you ask about is definitely not Varney. It is a
>> > Penn Line K-4. Someone commented it is a Cary body. I couldn't tell
>> > you anything about the boiler being Cary so I sent pictures of a Penn
>> > Line kit showing the original boiler / cab and frame with drivers. You
>> > be the judge if it is PL or Cary but again it is not Varney.
>> >
>> > Jim H
>> >
Group: vintageHO Message: 13825 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: The Ambroid Collection
Hello everyone;
I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
and WoW, where have I been???
Well, here's a little of it!!
Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
Ambroid kits"??
This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
now, the future of all this.
After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
why I'm interested again.
Now a little about 'the past'.
I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
finding these kits.
Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
on leads.
Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
kits.
I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
local,regional and national events.
Now they are out again!!!
And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
you are all up too!!!
So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
as teasers, and will close with this.
Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
collection to exist!! Anyone???
see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
Roger
Group: vintageHO Message: 13826 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Roger,
Looks like a nice collection. How about some close-ups of your 3-bay hoppers? Hard to see details of the cars from the present distance.
Art W
 
In a message dated 4/11/2010 7:00:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, arefhorn@... writes:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/
Group: vintageHO Message: 13827 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
I have posted in the Files section a Complete list of
the Ambroid kits. Tell me which car/cars you are asking
about.
I have individual photos of all cars in scenery settings.
No photos of closu-up details or underbodies, but if
that's what you need I can easily take more pics and
post in the album.
Roger

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
>
> Roger,
> Looks like a nice collection. How about some close-ups of your 3-bay
> hoppers? Hard to see details of the cars from the present distance.
> Art W
>
>
> In a message dated 4/11/2010 7:00:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> arefhorn@... writes:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13828 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Hi Roger H,

Welcome to our group! That is quite an introduction, an impressive body of craftsmanship and a great reference collection as well. Will be back to discuss more, have to run this AM. Those and similar kits were the mainstay of my early HO modeling and still seek some out to build or restore.

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone;
> I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> and WoW, where have I been???
> Well, here's a little of it!!
> Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> Ambroid kits"??
> This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> now, the future of all this.
> After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> why I'm interested again.
> Now a little about 'the past'.
> I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> finding these kits.
> Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> on leads.
> Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> kits.
> I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> local,regional and national events.
> Now they are out again!!!
> And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> you are all up too!!!
> So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> as teasers, and will close with this.
> Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> collection to exist!! Anyone???
> see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> Roger
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13829 From: JimW Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Roger - tremendous accomplishment - will you now take on the Quality Craft line?

Regards

Jim

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone;
> I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> and WoW, where have I been???
> Well, here's a little of it!!
> Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> Ambroid kits"??
> This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> now, the future of all this.
> After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> why I'm interested again.
> Now a little about 'the past'.
> I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> finding these kits.
> Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> on leads.
> Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> kits.
> I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> local,regional and national events.
> Now they are out again!!!
> And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> you are all up too!!!
> So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> as teasers, and will close with this.
> Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> collection to exist!! Anyone???
> see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> Roger
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13830 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Hi Jim,
All the Heritage Line were made for Ambroid by Quality Craft.
I did build 2 or 3 of their others but do no have them now.
One was an all metal tank car and the other an insulated tank
car, both fairly difficult.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "JimW" <Watermaj@...> wrote:
>
> Roger - tremendous accomplishment - will you now take on the Quality Craft line?
>
> Regards
>
> Jim
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone;
> > I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> > and WoW, where have I been???
> > Well, here's a little of it!!
> > Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> > was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> > railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> > by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> > Ambroid kits"??
> > This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> > the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> > now, the future of all this.
> > After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> > and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> > found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> > why I'm interested again.
> > Now a little about 'the past'.
> > I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> > Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> > portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> > At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> > her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> > kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> > familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> > But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> > look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> > Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> > Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> > I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> > whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> > finding these kits.
> > Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> > e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> > followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> > on leads.
> > Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> > for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> > and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> > All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> > years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> > 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> > names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> > kits.
> > I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> > with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> > developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> > wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> > I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> > wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> > local,regional and national events.
> > Now they are out again!!!
> > And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> > With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> > I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> > you are all up too!!!
> > So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> > as teasers, and will close with this.
> > Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> > person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> > that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> > collection to exist!! Anyone???
> > see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> > Roger
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13831 From: rcjge Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Gents:

Just got the Ambroid bug myself. I've acquired three of them the 1 in 5000 1 1/2 door auto, the NYC container and the Wood Chip car. I'll likely grab the outside bracedd caboose and the phosphate car. Don't know beyond that. My era for my layout I've designed is 1930 - 1967 NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME. So rolling stock should suit. I try to resist the "collecting" bug. It's always struck me as a somewhat unhealthy thing to just acquire things in any significant numbers that aren't useful. I assuage my guilt somewhat by knowing that "man" needs a egree of beauty i his life and that is found in many things not jusy Monet' .

I'll certainly be picking peoples brains here about how to best build these.

-Gareth

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone;
Group: vintageHO Message: 13832 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Roger,
I'm looking for detail photos of the brown and green 3 bay covered hoppers in the K series. Especially the roof walks.
 
In a message dated 4/11/2010 8:00:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, arefhorn@... writes:
I have posted in the Files section a Complete list of
the Ambroid kits. Tell me which car/cars you are asking
about.
I have individual photos of all cars in scenery settings.
No photos of closu-up details or underbodies, but if
that's what you need I can easily take more pics and
post in the album.
Roger

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
>
> Roger,
> Looks like a nice collection. How about some close-ups of your 3-bay 
> hoppers? Hard to see details of the cars from the present distance.
> Art W


> In a message dated 4/11/2010 7:00:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
> arefhorn@... writes:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/
>




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Group: vintageHO Message: 13833 From: jbark76 Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: In need of a boxcar end
I think I may have an end for you however I discovered two versions. I have a set where the ladders and grab irons are molded on and a set without ladders or grab irons. Does the end you have have a ladder molded on or not?

> The ends are finely-fluted dreadnaught style, NOT the braced end (GN Boxcar).
> I have the "B" end (brakewheel), but not the "A" end.
> 1-3/16" wide, not counting the poling pockets, 1-5/16" tall.
Group: vintageHO Message: 13834 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Roger, Welcome aboard and hang on to what I'm sure will be a great ride.
Many of us collecting vintage freight cars and kits include Ambroid cars in
our collections even though they don't go back to the 1940's or so < g >. I
don't have nor ever intend to have a complete set of Ambroid manufacture as
I've only selectively chosen my aquisitions of them, depending on their
appeal to me and their association with the local Roads I prefer modeling for a
layout of those particular Roads. Unlike other older manufacturers, I've
chosen not attempting to complete any collection of this manufacturer, but I
do see them as quality older craftsman models of which there has to be some
for nearly any freight car collector's interest.

I could venture a guess that yours may well be the only complete collection
of built-up Ambroid products, or at least one of the very few, as I've
never heard of anyone collecting this whole line of kits. You have a good head
start on collectors of the near future, as Ambroid will undoubtedly be
highly collectable as time goes on, As it is now, there are certain kits that
are highly in demand ( and commanding comparatively high prices on eBay), not
only from collectors' standpoints but from contemporary modelers wanting to
add models of their favorite railroads to what they've already modeled of
these same roads. Best of luck, sit back and enjoy yourself. Ray Wetzel
</HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13835 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
LOL. I had that plan 10 years ago, to build them all, and got started on them. I have lots of other projects now, and I am only going to build the Ambroid kits that fit the transition era I am modeling. I have at least four kits started that do not fit my era, but I am planning on finishing them and then, probably, selling them. I have all the 1 of 5,000 kits, and most of the others, along with several duplicates. As I get more organized, I will be listing the extra kits for sale, but that will probably be next winter. Good to know there are other Ambroid freaks around. As I finish kits, what ever type, I post pictures on my blog, www.nvrr49.blogspot.com .

Kent in KC


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone;
> I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> and WoW, where have I been???
> Well, here's a little of it!!
> Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> Ambroid kits"??
> This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> now, the future of all this.
> After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> why I'm interested again.
> Now a little about 'the past'.
> I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> finding these kits.
> Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> on leads.
> Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> kits.
> I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> local,regional and national events.
> Now they are out again!!!
> And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> you are all up too!!!
> So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> as teasers, and will close with this.
> Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> collection to exist!! Anyone???
> see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> Roger
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13836 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: American Beauty Cars with Walthers Sides
Group,

When punching in 'brass ladder' on Walthers site, this was the first result to pop up:

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/173-1

While certainly not a ladder, it had me thinking: I have plenty of American Beauty cars where the sides are too beat up or bent up to be usable. So I have frames, ends, and roofs. Anyone know how well, if at all, these Walthers brass sides will fit an American Beauty car?

At $35 per side set, I don't want to jump blindly into a project like this! I am hoping someone had tried it already, or at least knows enough about the product to have exact dimensions for their sides.

-Steve Neubaum
Group: vintageHO Message: 13837 From: nvrr49 Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
I have downloaded both Ambroid lists from the file section and will compare with my list, but on first glance, Rogers list looks very complete.

Kent in KC
www.nvrr49.blogspot.com

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> I have posted in the Files section a Complete list of
> the Ambroid kits. Tell me which car/cars you are asking
> about.
> I have individual photos of all cars in scenery settings.
> No photos of closu-up details or underbodies, but if
> that's what you need I can easily take more pics and
> post in the album.
> Roger
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> >
> > Roger,
> > Looks like a nice collection. How about some close-ups of your 3-bay
> > hoppers? Hard to see details of the cars from the present distance.
> > Art W
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 4/11/2010 7:00:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > arefhorn@ writes:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13838 From: jim heckard Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Penn Line, Varney, Cary, Mantua ?
Hi Don, All,
 
           I must admit I didn't look real close at the bottom of that Pacific Gareth ask about on Ebay. He had asked Penn Line or Varney. When I looked it is a Pennsylvania specific engine and was not Varney. A quick glance said a Penn Line K-4 engine. However it now seems many see a Cary K-3 body which is probably right. I also see some other changes which suggest modification but to what degree and whose parts I don't know.
 
   In an effort to determine if it could be a Mantua drive from the bottom view on Ebay I have sent three pictures.
 
     1st     Penn Line mint K-4 kit   ( I don't know how much difference in Bowser version )
     
      2nd   Mantua Pacific   One of the last drives with open / visible worm gear on motor shaft to drive gear
 
      3rd    Mantua enclosed drive Pacific. Came before the above drive. Worm gear on motor shaft was enclosed and you could not see meshing with the drive gear. 
 
                                              Jim H
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13839 From: bob d Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
I thought I had a lot of Ambroid models(most unbuilt), owning about 40 or so plus duplicates. I guess there's always someone out there with one more. I've been picking up Ambroid models for the past 15 years at train shows and such. Many have been purchased on the cheap since most modelers nowadays prefer RTR or more modern kits. Most of the dealers a the shows have had the kits for long periods of time and are usually gladly to get a return on their investment.....finally.

Quite a collection, Roger, I must agree.

Bob

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone;
> I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> and WoW, where have I been???
> Well, here's a little of it!!
> Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> Ambroid kits"??
> This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> now, the future of all this.
> After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> why I'm interested again.
> Now a little about 'the past'.
> I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> finding these kits.
> Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> on leads.
> Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> kits.
> I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> local,regional and national events.
> Now they are out again!!!
> And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> you are all up too!!!
> So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> as teasers, and will close with this.
> Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> collection to exist!! Anyone???
> see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> Roger
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13840 From: Carl Neste Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
In response to your post, I want over my list of (mostly unbuilt) Ambroid kits, and found that I have at least 32 of them. After looking at my list some more, I get the indication that Northeastern must have re-released some of them under their own brand and with different kit numbers.
Was this common?
Carl


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:18 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] The Ambroid Collection

 
 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13841 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: In need of a boxcar end
Well, this "B" end has no ladder (I have ladders separately), cast in tack board, separately applied grab.
So, if you have one without ladders or grabs, that's the exact one, but as long as there are three rows of 5 flutes, and width/height is right, it'll work.

Dave


> I think I may have an end for you however I discovered two versions. I have a set where the ladders and grab irons are molded on and a set without ladders or grab irons. Does the end you have have a ladder molded on or not?
>
> > The ends are finely-fluted dreadnaught style, NOT the braced end (GN Boxcar).
> > I have the "B" end (brakewheel), but not the "A" end.
> > 1-3/16" wide, not counting the poling pockets, 1-5/16" tall.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13842 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Yes,,,, but not the same kits until after the break-up between
Ambroid and Northeastern. During their relationship Ne would
occassionally release their own model, presumably it had been
declined by Ambroid. Afterhthe breakup NE continued making kits
and releasing, and yes, the number system was different.
After the Heritage line ended and Ambroid quit altogether in
1975, QC continued for a long time to make kits. Then after
they left the business Gloor Craft bought the tooling and
continued, may still be making some but I haven't checked
lately.
In response to other posts, I am looking for some kits still
and I will list those soon. The main colection will remain
"Display Only" but I have a few 'extras' now and want to add
certain more for operation.
Thanks for all the interest.
Roger

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Neste" <cmneste@...> wrote:
>
> In response to your post, I want over my list of (mostly unbuilt) Ambroid
> kits, and found that I have at least 32 of them. After looking at my list
> some more, I get the indication that Northeastern must have re-released some
> of them under their own brand and with different kit numbers.
> Was this common?
> Carl
>
> _____
>
> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Roger
> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:18 PM
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vintageHO] The Ambroid Collection
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13843 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
I still am not sure of your request.
In the K series the only hopper is the ACF Center flow hopper,
it is 4 bay. There was a green car and a brown car. This kit
was avail in 8 or 10 road names and I have built all of those.

I am adding photos of this one to the Ambroid album. If you are
asking about a different car try to ident it from the list I
put in "files" or whatever you can add.
To all,,,
when I built the collection I did not keep the boxes, just photos
of them, but I did keep all the plan sheets, so if someone needs
info from the plans I can scan and send portions of pages or
more.
Also, In support of the collection on display I compiled a
complete set of all the advertisements from MRR thru the years
as each kit was introduced by Ambroid. Not every kit was 'added'
especially near the end. This album of the ads in itself makes
interesting reading. Obviously, most ads also were about the
Ambroid Cement as well.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
>
> Roger,
> I'm looking for detail photos of the brown and green 3 bay covered hoppers
> in the K series. Especially the roof walks.
>
>
> In a message dated 4/11/2010 8:00:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> arefhorn@... writes:
>
> I have posted in the Files section a Complete list of
> the Ambroid kits. Tell me which car/cars you are asking
> about.
> I have individual photos of all cars in scenery settings.
> No photos of closu-up details or underbodies, but if
> that's what you need I can easily take more pics and
> post in the album.
> Roger
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> >
> > Roger,
> > Looks like a nice collection. How about some close-ups of your 3-bay
> > hoppers? Hard to see details of the cars from the present distance.
> > Art W
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 4/11/2010 7:00:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > arefhorn@ writes:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13844 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
I have changed the Ambroid List in 'files' indicating the
makers of the kits.
Ambroid did not make any kits, they made liquid model cement
from about 1914.
In the late 1940's they decided to improve their sales of cement
by adding the kits. The early kits included a tube of cement,
usually enough to make several kits!!! So later they put in smaller
tubes and again later, stopped including the cement.
Ambroid makes several kinds of cement now.
The first Kit was advertised in 1949 and the last in 1975.
They basically lost interest in the kits due to competition in
about 1972 and went 3 years with no ads. Then, Finally they
put out several of the last kits to finish the Heritage Line
and then just faded away without any final comment.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> I still am not sure of your request.
> In the K series the only hopper is the ACF Center flow hopper,
> it is 4 bay. There was a green car and a brown car. This kit
> was avail in 8 or 10 road names and I have built all of those.
>
> I am adding photos of this one to the Ambroid album. If you are
> asking about a different car try to ident it from the list I
> put in "files" or whatever you can add.
> To all,,,
> when I built the collection I did not keep the boxes, just photos
> of them, but I did keep all the plan sheets, so if someone needs
> info from the plans I can scan and send portions of pages or
> more.
> Also, In support of the collection on display I compiled a
> complete set of all the advertisements from MRR thru the years
> as each kit was introduced by Ambroid. Not every kit was 'added'
> especially near the end. This album of the ads in itself makes
> interesting reading. Obviously, most ads also were about the
> Ambroid Cement as well.
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> >
> > Roger,
> > I'm looking for detail photos of the brown and green 3 bay covered hoppers
> > in the K series. Especially the roof walks.
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 4/11/2010 8:00:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > arefhorn@ writes:
> >
> > I have posted in the Files section a Complete list of
> > the Ambroid kits. Tell me which car/cars you are asking
> > about.
> > I have individual photos of all cars in scenery settings.
> > No photos of closu-up details or underbodies, but if
> > that's what you need I can easily take more pics and
> > post in the album.
> > Roger
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Roger,
> > > Looks like a nice collection. How about some close-ups of your 3-bay
> > > hoppers? Hard to see details of the cars from the present distance.
> > > Art W
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 4/11/2010 7:00:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > arefhorn@ writes:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13845 From: Fred Krause Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Hello Roger,
I am getting in on this conversation a little late but I do have pristine Ambroid K Series kits available.  For Example:
K-1 B& M Snow Plow $25.00
K-4 Great Northern Reefer $ 15.00 (2)
K-5 Passenger Coach $ 15.00
K-6 Combination Passenger Coach $ 15.00
K-7 Open Platform Baggage Car$ 15.00
K-10 B&M Winged Snow Plow $ 25.00
K-12 40' Single Sheathed Box Car $ 15.00
K-13 Livesay Poltry Car $ 15.00
 

This is just a small sample of the kits I have.  If you have an interest in any of these feel free to contact me at this email address.

Also my store phone is: 630.208.9011  M-F 10AM – 6 PM CST

 

Thanks

Fred




From: Roger <arefhorn@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, April 11, 2010 4:36:00 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The Ambroid Collection

 

I have changed the Ambroid List in 'files' indicating the
makers of the kits.
Ambroid did not make any kits, they made liquid model cement
from about 1914.
In the late 1940's they decided to improve their sales of cement
by adding the kits. The early kits included a tube of cement,
usually enough to make several kits!!! So later they put in smaller
tubes and again later, stopped including the cement.
Ambroid makes several kinds of cement now.
The first Kit was advertised in 1949 and the last in 1975.
They basically lost interest in the kits due to competition in
about 1972 and went 3 years with no ads. Then, Finally they
put out several of the last kits to finish the Heritage Line
and then just faded away without any final comment.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@.. .> wrote:

>
> I still am not sure of your request.
> In the K series the only hopper is the ACF Center flow hopper,
> it is 4 bay. There was a green car and a brown car. This kit
> was avail in 8 or 10 road names and I have built all of those.
>
> I am adding photos of this one to the Ambroid album. If you are
> asking about a different car try to ident it from the list I
> put in "files" or whatever you can add.
> To all,,,
> when I built the collection I did not keep the boxes, just photos
> of them, but I did keep all the plan sheets, so if someone needs
> info from the plans I can scan and send portions of pages or
> more.
> Also, In support of the collection on display I compiled a
> complete set of all the advertisements from MRR thru the years
> as each kit was introduced by Ambroid. Not every kit was 'added'
>
especially near the end. This album of the ads in itself makes
> interesting reading. Obviously, most ads also were about the
> Ambroid Cement as well.
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> >
> > Roger,
> > I'm looking for detail photos of the brown and green 3 bay covered hoppers
> > in the K series. Especially the roof walks.
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 4/11/2010 8:00:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > arefhorn@ writes:
> >
> > I have posted in the Files section a Complete list of
> > the Ambroid kits. Tell me which car/cars you are asking
> > about.
> > I have individual photos of all cars in scenery settings.
> > No photos of closu-up details or
underbodies, but if
> > that's what you need I can easily take more pics and
> > post in the album.
> > Roger
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Roger,
> > > Looks like a nice collection. How about some close-ups of your 3-bay
> > > hoppers? Hard to see details of the cars from the present distance.
> > > Art W
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 4/11/2010 7:00:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > arefhorn@ writes:
> > >
> > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13846 From: David J. Starr Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: Vintage Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific
dhopf1 wrote:
> I'm working on a friends old Athearn 4-6-2 Pacific gear drive Loco. The original motor seems to weak as it runs about 18" and then stops. I have another vintage Athearn motor which sets in the chassis. This one runs great but the speed is slow, about 60 MPH.
>
> Did these Locos when new, run at a high speed?
>
> Don Hopf
>
I am working on one of these babies at the very moment. I have the
version where ALL juice is picked up in the tender. I got it off E bay
a while ago. It must have fallen to the floor once upon a time since
the pilot and pilot deck were broken off. Buffing up the tender wheels
and the tender truck mounting studs with a wire wheel in the Dremel
helped with the stalling problem. On my 4 foot bench test track it
moves at a decent speed, probably a scale 60 mph or so. It isn't as
fast as a Mantua Pacific which can still do 200 scale mph.
I have some pictures on photobucket here.
http://s241.photobucket.com/albums/ff111/Mittersill/
I plan to put her on the layout and give her a good running in before
painting her.



--
David J. Starr

Blog: http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 13847 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
In looking back at my pics I think see what you are asking.
The Grey car does look green so I guess you asked about the
ACF cars. I added photos to the album but forgot to comment.
The roof walks are a fine screen material to be cut and added
per the plan sheet. The later productions of the kit included
laser cut roof walks and are on the rh grey car in the pics.
If I can answer more please ask.
Roger

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> I still am not sure of your request.
> In the K series the only hopper is the ACF Center flow hopper,
> it is 4 bay. There was a green car and a brown car. This kit
> was avail in 8 or 10 road names and I have built all of those.
>
> I am adding photos of this one to the Ambroid album. If you are
> asking about a different car try to ident it from the list I
> put in "files" or whatever you can add.
> To all,,,
> when I built the collection I did not keep the boxes, just photos
> of them, but I did keep all the plan sheets, so if someone needs
> info from the plans I can scan and send portions of pages or
> more.
> Also, In support of the collection on display I compiled a
> complete set of all the advertisements from MRR thru the years
> as each kit was introduced by Ambroid. Not every kit was 'added'
> especially near the end. This album of the ads in itself makes
> interesting reading. Obviously, most ads also were about the
> Ambroid Cement as well.
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> >
> > Roger,
> > I'm looking for detail photos of the brown and green 3 bay covered hoppers
> > in the K series. Especially the roof walks.
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 4/11/2010 8:00:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > arefhorn@ writes:
> >
> > I have posted in the Files section a Complete list of
> > the Ambroid kits. Tell me which car/cars you are asking
> > about.
> > I have individual photos of all cars in scenery settings.
> > No photos of closu-up details or underbodies, but if
> > that's what you need I can easily take more pics and
> > post in the album.
> > Roger
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Roger,
> > > Looks like a nice collection. How about some close-ups of your 3-bay
> > > hoppers? Hard to see details of the cars from the present distance.
> > > Art W
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 4/11/2010 7:00:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > arefhorn@ writes:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13848 From: Roger Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
Hi Fred,
I am interested in some of these. I will put together
my list and call you soon.
Thanks, Roger

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Krause <mbe4385@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Roger,
> I am getting in on this conversation a little late but I do have pristine Ambroid K Series kits available.  For Example:
> K-1 B& M Snow Plow $25.00
> K-4 Great Northern Reefer $ 15.00 (2)
> K-5 Passenger Coach $ 15.00
> K-6 Combination Passenger Coach $ 15.00
> K-7 Open Platform Baggage Car$ 15.00
> K-10 B&M Winged Snow Plow $ 25.00
> K-12 40' Single Sheathed Box Car $ 15.00
> K-13 Livesay Poltry Car $ 15.00
>
> This is just a small sample of the kits I have.  If you have an interest in any of these feel free to contact me at this email address.
> Also my store phone is: 630.208.9011  M-F 10AM â€" 6 PM CST
>  
> Thanks
> Fred
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Roger <arefhorn@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, April 11, 2010 4:36:00 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The Ambroid Collection
>
>  
> I have changed the Ambroid List in 'files' indicating the
> makers of the kits.
> Ambroid did not make any kits, they made liquid model cement
> from about 1914.
> In the late 1940's they decided to improve their sales of cement
> by adding the kits. The early kits included a tube of cement,
> usually enough to make several kits!!! So later they put in smaller
> tubes and again later, stopped including the cement.
> Ambroid makes several kinds of cement now.
> The first Kit was advertised in 1949 and the last in 1975.
> They basically lost interest in the kits due to competition in
> about 1972 and went 3 years with no ads. Then, Finally they
> put out several of the last kits to finish the Heritage Line
> and then just faded away without any final comment.
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@ .> wrote:
> >
> > I still am not sure of your request.
> > In the K series the only hopper is the ACF Center flow hopper,
> > it is 4 bay. There was a green car and a brown car. This kit
> > was avail in 8 or 10 road names and I have built all of those.
> >
> > I am adding photos of this one to the Ambroid album. If you are
> > asking about a different car try to ident it from the list I
> > put in "files" or whatever you can add.
> > To all,,,
> > when I built the collection I did not keep the boxes, just photos
> > of them, but I did keep all the plan sheets, so if someone needs
> > info from the plans I can scan and send portions of pages or
> > more.
> > Also, In support of the collection on display I compiled a
> > complete set of all the advertisements from MRR thru the years
> > as each kit was introduced by Ambroid. Not every kit was 'added'
> > especially near the end. This album of the ads in itself makes
> > interesting reading. Obviously, most ads also were about the
> > Ambroid Cement as well.
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Roger,
> > > I'm looking for detail photos of the brown and green 3 bay covered hoppers
> > > in the K series. Especially the roof walks.
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 4/11/2010 8:00:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > arefhorn@ writes:
> > >
> > > I have posted in the Files section a Complete list of
> > > the Ambroid kits. Tell me which car/cars you are asking
> > > about.
> > > I have individual photos of all cars in scenery settings.
> > > No photos of closu-up details or underbodies, but if
> > > that's what you need I can easily take more pics and
> > > post in the album.
> > > Roger
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Roger,
> > > > Looks like a nice collection. How about some close-ups of your 3-bay
> > > > hoppers? Hard to see details of the cars from the present distance.
> > > > Art W
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 4/11/2010 7:00:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > > arefhorn@ writes:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13849 From: Chris B Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: new ebay listings for vintage cast diesel shells
Hi, just saw these two listings, not bidding on either one, but curious as always for group ID comments on early cast diesels:



0 Bids$19.99



0 Bids$19.99







Btw, I lost out this past week on two ebay listings for GARCO Baldwin switchers, anyone in the group happen to win either one?

Chris B.

Group: vintageHO Message: 13850 From: Carl Neste Date: 4/11/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
I have a few that I may want to sell, ones that are too modern for my era.
Carl


From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 3:33 PM
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The Ambroid Collection

 

Yes,,,, but not the same kits until after the break-up between
Ambroid and Northeastern. During their relationship Ne would
occassionally release their own model, presumably it had been
declined by Ambroid. Afterhthe breakup NE continued making kits
and releasing, and yes, the number system was different.
After the Heritage line ended and Ambroid quit altogether in
1975, QC continued for a long time to make kits. Then after
they left the business Gloor Craft bought the tooling and
continued, may still be making some but I haven't checked
lately.
In response to other posts, I am looking for some kits still
and I will list those soon. The main colection will remain
"Display Only" but I have a few 'extras' now and want to add
certain more for operation.
Thanks for all the interest.
Roger

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Carl Neste" <cmneste@... > wrote:

>
> In response to your
post, I want over my list of (mostly unbuilt) Ambroid
> kits, and found
that I have at least 32 of them. After looking at my list
> some more, I
get the indication that Northeastern must have re-released some
> of them
under their own brand and with different kit numbers.
> Was this
common?
> Carl
>
> _____
>
> From:
href="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com">vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
> Of Roger
> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:18 PM
>
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
>
Subject: [vintageHO] The Ambroid Collection
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13851 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/12/2010
Subject: More New Vids
Hello one and All,
 
Once again, I have more video footage to show, this time I have a lot, lots of new stuff, for one, I bought me a new computer, thats why you haven't seen me post any new vids for awhile, it does take time to set up a new computer, the downside is, all those cool routes I had on the old computer, (virtual Trainz), while I tried to save all of my custom content, unfortunately, due to issues with Vista, (got to blame someone other than myself!), and also, due to the issues that were cauzed by a game thats way out of date for Win7, I wasn't able to save any of my custom content, except for the CDP's that I had downloaded from sites other than the Download Station, also, evidently, for me, TRS2006 will not cooperate within Win7, however, Trainz Classics 1&2 did, so I have been somewhat busy putting things together there.
 
On the model railroad front, things have been very good indeed, on April third, we had a another final train sale for this season, Dana doesn't often run one in April, as March is usually the cutoff, we only typically do 6 sales a year, unfortunately, January was a wash for most of us, as it was sleeting and snowing that day, (yes, even in Springhill, Florida), so for the first video, here are some highlights of that sale.
 
 
A week later, just as I'm going on staycation for a week, I took my new (to me), Stewart/Kato F3's to Dana's to give them a good shakedown run, man those run sweet, that purple paint has to go however, they will be done up in the absolutely beautiful D&RGW bumble bee scheme.
 
 
And this next video, Resurrecting the Dinosaurs, yes, I'm back at it again, at least for a short time, this is the caboose salvage part one.
 
 
For those of you who have been with me for a few years, you may recognize the trackplan on this one, as I have redone my original Withlacoochee River Rwy in Trainz Classics, even though I tried to make it a more relistic route, its always been a model railroad route in my book, and in this configuration, a virtual scale model railroad.
 
 
And for this final video, heres the latest one done on the Withlacoochee, both a brand new route, on a brand new computer, with a brand new USRA 2-10-2, nicely done by Ben Neal of Subpar Productions, I love all these free downloads!
 
 
Gary W
 

 
Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

Group: vintageHO Message: 13852 From: rcjge Date: 4/12/2010
Subject: Hobbytown Kit number List?
Hey Fella's:

I was wondering if anyone had a Kit number list for the various Hobbytown kit's/units... if not I thought it might be a worthwhile project to compile one...

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13853 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/13/2010
Subject: Re: Hobbytown Kit number List?
Hi Gareth and All,

I began such a list and have much from the late 1940's through about 1960, all from official hobbytown of Boston advertising, compiled on a spreadsheet with annotations as to when new models and chassis were introduced or put on remaider sales and discontinued.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/database?method=reportRows&tbl=1

I began posting that information in the datbase section here on our group website last year, but did not get far. Let me locate the rest of what I have at home and see if it can be adapted to the regular files section before someone has to go through hundreds of back issues of the magazines as I did! Be back to you later tonight!

W. Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Fella's:
>
> I was wondering if anyone had a Kit number list for the various Hobbytown kit's/units... if not I thought it might be a worthwhile project to compile one...
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13858 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/13/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
group.

File : /BUILT AN AMBROID KIT LATELY.doc
Uploaded by : arefhorn <arefhorn@...>
Description : Ambroid article published in the late '80's/

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/BUILT%20AN%20AMBROID%20KIT%20LATELY.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

arefhorn <arefhorn@...>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13859 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
Hi Roger,

Thanks for posting your Ambroid list, as it is great to be able to find all the information in one place, rather then checking various old master catlogs and ads.

I have a question that you may be able to answer. Display Craft produced one kit for Ambroid, and one other kit, very similar to Ambroid quality and detail sold direct by Display Craft, a "modern" 60' UTLX Liquid Gas Tank Car; (I hesitate to use the word modern for a fifty-year old freight car).

Do you know if that Display Craft UTLX kit was originally designed to be an Ambroid kit and the deal fell through, possibly because it had some seemingly very difficult assembly steps in bending wood parts around the tank? Mine is still unbuilt. Display Craft heavilly advertised their UTLX kit as well, but it seems to not have been reveiwed by MR or RMC.

Perhaps the production of two model railroad kits were a sideline for them.

W. Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone;
> I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> and WoW, where have I been???
> Well, here's a little of it!!
> Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> Ambroid kits"??
> This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> now, the future of all this.
> After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> why I'm interested again.
> Now a little about 'the past'.
> I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> finding these kits.
> Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> on leads.
> Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> kits.
> I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> local,regional and national events.
> Now they are out again!!!
> And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> you are all up too!!!
> So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> as teasers, and will close with this.
> Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> collection to exist!! Anyone???
> see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> Roger
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13860 From: Roger Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
To my knowledge and the info I have the UTLX cars were not
considered by Ambroid. Just another attemp by Display Craft to
enter the market.
I will have another file ready soon that highlights this.
The ACF hopper set were difficult to build but after 35 or so
others kits, not a problem for me. In fact I enjoyed them.
I have another of those kits on the shelf.
The solar sheilded tanks were also reviewed as "the most
difficult kits to build ever produced". And again, not a
bother for me. I built one of them but no longer have it.
Wouldn't mind getting another.
I am in the process of converting hundreds of slides to digital
and have not found those pics yet.
I also built the famous?? Quality Craft 96' 'whale-belly'
liquid propane car, also gone. Now that was an impressive car.
I am preparing more text and lists for all concerned which will
fill in a lot of gaps.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Roger,
>
> Thanks for posting your Ambroid list, as it is great to be able to find all the information in one place, rather then checking various old master catlogs and ads.
>
> I have a question that you may be able to answer. Display Craft produced one kit for Ambroid, and one other kit, very similar to Ambroid quality and detail sold direct by Display Craft, a "modern" 60' UTLX Liquid Gas Tank Car; (I hesitate to use the word modern for a fifty-year old freight car).
>
> Do you know if that Display Craft UTLX kit was originally designed to be an Ambroid kit and the deal fell through, possibly because it had some seemingly very difficult assembly steps in bending wood parts around the tank? Mine is still unbuilt. Display Craft heavilly advertised their UTLX kit as well, but it seems to not have been reveiwed by MR or RMC.
>
> Perhaps the production of two model railroad kits were a sideline for them.
>
> W. Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone;
> > I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> > and WoW, where have I been???
> > Well, here's a little of it!!
> > Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> > was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> > railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> > by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> > Ambroid kits"??
> > This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> > the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> > now, the future of all this.
> > After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> > and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> > found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> > why I'm interested again.
> > Now a little about 'the past'.
> > I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> > Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> > portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> > At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> > her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> > kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> > familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> > But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> > look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> > Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> > Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> > I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> > whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> > finding these kits.
> > Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> > e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> > followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> > on leads.
> > Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> > for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> > and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> > All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> > years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> > 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> > names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> > kits.
> > I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> > with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> > developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> > wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> > I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> > wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> > local,regional and national events.
> > Now they are out again!!!
> > And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> > With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> > I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> > you are all up too!!!
> > So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> > as teasers, and will close with this.
> > Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> > person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> > that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> > collection to exist!! Anyone???
> > see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> > Roger
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13861 From: Roger Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection
I just notice I mis-spoke below.
Later roof walks were etched metal, not laser cut (wood?).
They are fairly clear in the photos.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> In looking back at my pics I think see what you are asking.
> The Grey car does look green so I guess you asked about the
> ACF cars. I added photos to the album but forgot to comment.
> The roof walks are a fine screen material to be cut and added
> per the plan sheet. The later productions of the kit included
> laser cut roof walks and are on the rh grey car in the pics.
> If I can answer more please ask.
> Roger
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@> wrote:
> >
> > I still am not sure of your request.
> > In the K series the only hopper is the ACF Center flow hopper,
> > it is 4 bay. There was a green car and a brown car. This kit
> > was avail in 8 or 10 road names and I have built all of those.
> >
> > I am adding photos of this one to the Ambroid album. If you are
> > asking about a different car try to ident it from the list I
> > put in "files" or whatever you can add.
> > To all,,,
> > when I built the collection I did not keep the boxes, just photos
> > of them, but I did keep all the plan sheets, so if someone needs
> > info from the plans I can scan and send portions of pages or
> > more.
> > Also, In support of the collection on display I compiled a
> > complete set of all the advertisements from MRR thru the years
> > as each kit was introduced by Ambroid. Not every kit was 'added'
> > especially near the end. This album of the ads in itself makes
> > interesting reading. Obviously, most ads also were about the
> > Ambroid Cement as well.
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Roger,
> > > I'm looking for detail photos of the brown and green 3 bay covered hoppers
> > > in the K series. Especially the roof walks.
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 4/11/2010 8:00:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > arefhorn@ writes:
> > >
> > > I have posted in the Files section a Complete list of
> > > the Ambroid kits. Tell me which car/cars you are asking
> > > about.
> > > I have individual photos of all cars in scenery settings.
> > > No photos of closu-up details or underbodies, but if
> > > that's what you need I can easily take more pics and
> > > post in the album.
> > > Roger
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Roger,
> > > > Looks like a nice collection. How about some close-ups of your 3-bay
> > > > hoppers? Hard to see details of the cars from the present distance.
> > > > Art W
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 4/11/2010 7:00:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > > arefhorn@ writes:
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13862 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
group.

File : /The Ambroid Story, Peter Abel.doc
Uploaded by : arefhorn <arefhorn@...>
Description : Article: The Ambroid Story

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/The%20Ambroid%20Story%2C%20Peter%20Abel.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

arefhorn <arefhorn@...>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13863 From: Roger Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
I found some pics!! The Display Craft Liquid Air Tank and the
QC all aluminum Tank car. Both great kits. sure wish I still
had them. If you decide to not build your Display Craft kit
I would like to do it again.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Roger,
>
> Thanks for posting your Ambroid list, as it is great to be able to find all the information in one place, rather then checking various old master catlogs and ads.
>
> I have a question that you may be able to answer. Display Craft produced one kit for Ambroid, and one other kit, very similar to Ambroid quality and detail sold direct by Display Craft, a "modern" 60' UTLX Liquid Gas Tank Car; (I hesitate to use the word modern for a fifty-year old freight car).
>
> Do you know if that Display Craft UTLX kit was originally designed to be an Ambroid kit and the deal fell through, possibly because it had some seemingly very difficult assembly steps in bending wood parts around the tank? Mine is still unbuilt. Display Craft heavilly advertised their UTLX kit as well, but it seems to not have been reveiwed by MR or RMC.
>
> Perhaps the production of two model railroad kits were a sideline for them.
>
> W. Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone;
> > I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> > and WoW, where have I been???
> > Well, here's a little of it!!
> > Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> > was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> > railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> > by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> > Ambroid kits"??
> > This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> > the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> > now, the future of all this.
> > After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> > and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> > found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> > why I'm interested again.
> > Now a little about 'the past'.
> > I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> > Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> > portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> > At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> > her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> > kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> > familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> > But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> > look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> > Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> > Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> > I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> > whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> > finding these kits.
> > Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> > e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> > followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> > on leads.
> > Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> > for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> > and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> > All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> > years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> > 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> > names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> > kits.
> > I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> > with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> > developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> > wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> > I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> > wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> > local,regional and national events.
> > Now they are out again!!!
> > And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> > With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> > I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> > you are all up too!!!
> > So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> > as teasers, and will close with this.
> > Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> > person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> > that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> > collection to exist!! Anyone???
> > see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> > Roger
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13864 From: al45390 Date: 4/14/2010
Subject: Question for "Ambroid" Roger
"G" Scale Ambroid kits????
Off-Topic for this group, but I am curious, and maybe a few others are.
You can contact me by direct e-mail.
Walter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13865 From: Roger Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question for "Ambroid" Roger
Walter,
I figured this may get a 'rise' out of someone!!!!
No, there were no "G" Ambroid kits!!
However, when I lived in Florida I built up a nice garden
railway, so as some may expect, I built four "Ambroid" cars
to "Garden" size. I enlarged the plan sheets to appropriate
dimensions and scratch-built the cars. I found appropriate
detail parts, decals, etc and used Aristo-craft truck/coupler
sets. I only have one of these cars now. Pictures added to
the Ambroid album. The roof walk on this car is 22" long.
Roger

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "al45390" <bayerw2@...> wrote:
>
> "G" Scale Ambroid kits????
> Off-Topic for this group, but I am curious, and maybe a few others are.
> You can contact me by direct e-mail.
> Walter
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13866 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: new ebay listings for vintage cast diesel shells
Hi Chris B., Jim H. and All,

I noticed those cast bronze/brass EMD FT's on eBay, too, when drawn to the seller's other listings, then searching through the rest.

The second set illustrated in your post, with upper open side panels, resembles the pair I picked up years ago, though unlike the ones pictured, mine do not have a cast headlight opening, and as "detailed" numberboards, also lack the cast on roof dynamic brake exhaust details, being machined smooth, which appear to be like the ones pictured.

However, there is also a great similarity to the FT-A that I recently bought on eBay from Sean, except that model HAS the rough cast rooftop detail.

Jim has posted photos of the very similar FT set in a Theo Parker box - Theo Parker was a major distributor listed in ads in that late 1940's sand cast model era.

The nature of sand casting in bronze usually is characterized by short runs and use of a master which could be changed or improved between runs. One theory I am thinking about is that Adams was likely the foundry, and perhaps as a "major player" in the industry at the time, contracted with various distributors for individual runs on a wholsale basis.

Distributors often rans ads showing models without manufacturers names, statiting "our new diesel" leading customers to think that they were the only supplier of a particular item. Not exactly fraudulous, but in a "Fair Trade" era where stores had to sell items at fixed manufacturer's prices, there was little reason to chose one mail order supplier over another, except based on either exclusivity, location or perhaps free postage ("closeout discounts" were permitted under "Fair Trade Laws" if the exact item was no longer cataloged). So creation of an "exclusive product" increased sales.

Garrett, a large distributor, offered EMD FT's as part of his GARCO line, and Theo Parker offered them as his "Freight Diesels" Adams MAY have manufactured both in seperate runs on a contract basis.

The first ones illustrated in yotr post, seem to resemble the ones appearing in the tiny illustrated ads of Dallas Modelcraft, with solid upper panel with a texture resembling screening.

Please do not hold me to these ID's --- my theories are not fact, only working postulates until more information is obtained. But until more models can be found in original packaging, like Jim's fortunate find of the FT's in Theo Parker boxes, we have little information to work with.

Jim H., any more thoughts on theses since our last discussions? Anyone else have other theories?

W Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, just saw these two listings, not bidding on either one, but curious as always for group ID comments on early cast diesels:
>
>
>
> BRASS FT SHELLS FOR HOBBYTOWN OR LINDSAY DRIVES
> 0 Bids $19.99
>
>
>
> BRASS ENGINE SHELLS FOR
> HOBBYTOWN OR LINDSAY DRIVES
> 0 Bids $19.99
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Btw, I lost out this past week on two ebay listings for GARCO Baldwin
> switchers, anyone in the group happen to win either one?
>
> Chris B.
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13867 From: Walter Bayer Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question for "Ambroid" Roger
Group: vintageHO Message: 13868 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
Hi Roger,

Thanks also for posting the Ambroid article written by Roger Horne circa 1980. It certainly expanded my knowlege of a line that I enjoyed building several of when they were new. The first Amberoid kit I ever saw assembled was from the 2 in 1 kit, the Kopper's cylindrical covered hopper, which a milkman neighbor had built with his excellent skills in the first weeks after it was availible.

I could not believe how realistic it was, and of a modern car, which is what we saw around us and wanted to model. Cost was a factor to a young teen as first with no fear of possible difficulties or lack of skills. For me those bridges were crossed with my first craftsman wood kit, the QC tri-level auto rack - but that is another story. My favorite Ambroid to build in those later teen and school days was the B&O Cushion Coil car.

As a postscript to the article, would add that the demise of the craftsman type wood kits as a popular prototype specific modeling method did not die off, but morphed into the several excellent lines of resin kits today, such as Westerfield and Sunshine; (although pupularity does not measure in the 5000's for each kit!).

Besides Quality Craft/Gloor Craft which bridged the eras from wood to to resin, Roller Bearing models (Ed Petras) which began in the mid to late 1970's (just outside this group's usual scope), offered mostly modern freight cars of that era, and some, notibly his tank cars fit in well with Ambroid and QC models.

You mentioned compiling a book of all of the Ambroid ads over the years. Do you also have the MR and RMC reviews of the kits? Sometimes those reviews were helpful in assembley of the kits.

My Display Craft Liquid Air Tank kit is still on the "to build" shelf, along with a few others, and your photos may be just the sort of push to finally get me started on that beauty!

W Jay W.





--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> I found some pics!! The Display Craft Liquid Air Tank and the
> QC all aluminum Tank car. Both great kits. sure wish I still
> had them. If you decide to not build your Display Craft kit
> I would like to do it again.
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Roger,
> >
> > Thanks for posting your Ambroid list, as it is great to be able to find all the information in one place, rather then checking various old master catlogs and ads.
> >
> > I have a question that you may be able to answer. Display Craft produced one kit for Ambroid, and one other kit, very similar to Ambroid quality and detail sold direct by Display Craft, a "modern" 60' UTLX Liquid Gas Tank Car; (I hesitate to use the word modern for a fifty-year old freight car).
> >
> > Do you know if that Display Craft UTLX kit was originally designed to be an Ambroid kit and the deal fell through, possibly because it had some seemingly very difficult assembly steps in bending wood parts around the tank? Mine is still unbuilt. Display Craft heavilly advertised their UTLX kit as well, but it seems to not have been reveiwed by MR or RMC.
> >
> > Perhaps the production of two model railroad kits were a sideline for them.
> >
> > W. Jay W.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello everyone;
> > > I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> > > and WoW, where have I been???
> > > Well, here's a little of it!!
> > > Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> > > was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> > > railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> > > by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> > > Ambroid kits"??
> > > This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> > > the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> > > now, the future of all this.
> > > After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> > > and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> > > found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> > > why I'm interested again.
> > > Now a little about 'the past'.
> > > I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> > > Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> > > portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> > > At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> > > her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> > > kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> > > familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> > > But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> > > look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> > > Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> > > Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> > > I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> > > whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> > > finding these kits.
> > > Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> > > e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> > > followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> > > on leads.
> > > Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> > > for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> > > and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> > > All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> > > years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> > > 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> > > names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> > > kits.
> > > I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> > > with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> > > developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> > > wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> > > I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> > > wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> > > local,regional and national events.
> > > Now they are out again!!!
> > > And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> > > With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> > > I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> > > you are all up too!!!
> > > So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> > > as teasers, and will close with this.
> > > Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> > > person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> > > that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> > > collection to exist!! Anyone???
> > > see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> > > Roger
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13869 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Correction Re: new ebay listings for vintage cast diesel shells
Sorry Chris B. and All, I mixed my possible ID's in the photos you posted. Top appears to be Garrett/GARCO and the bottom one varients of Jim's Theo Parker and the Dallas offerings. W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris B., Jim H. and All,
>
> I noticed those cast bronze/brass EMD FT's on eBay, too, when drawn to the seller's other listings, then searching through the rest.
>
> The second set illustrated in your post, with upper open side panels, resembles the pair I picked up years ago, though unlike the ones pictured, mine do not have a cast headlight opening, and as "detailed" numberboards, also lack the cast on roof dynamic brake exhaust details, being machined smooth, which appear to be like the ones pictured.
>
> However, there is also a great similarity to the FT-A that I recently bought on eBay from Sean, except that model HAS the rough cast rooftop detail.
>
> Jim has posted photos of the very similar FT set in a Theo Parker box - Theo Parker was a major distributor listed in ads in that late 1940's sand cast model era.
>
> The nature of sand casting in bronze usually is characterized by short runs and use of a master which could be changed or improved between runs. One theory I am thinking about is that Adams was likely the foundry, and perhaps as a "major player" in the industry at the time, contracted with various distributors for individual runs on a wholsale basis.
>
> Distributors often rans ads showing models without manufacturers names, statiting "our new diesel" leading customers to think that they were the only supplier of a particular item. Not exactly fraudulous, but in a "Fair Trade" era where stores had to sell items at fixed manufacturer's prices, there was little reason to chose one mail order supplier over another, except based on either exclusivity, location or perhaps free postage ("closeout discounts" were permitted under "Fair Trade Laws" if the exact item was no longer cataloged). So creation of an "exclusive product" increased sales.
>
> Garrett, a large distributor, offered EMD FT's as part of his GARCO line, and Theo Parker offered them as his "Freight Diesels" Adams MAY have manufactured both in seperate runs on a contract basis.
>
> The first ones illustrated in yotr post, seem to resemble the ones appearing in the tiny illustrated ads of Dallas Modelcraft, with solid upper panel with a texture resembling screening.
>
> Please do not hold me to these ID's --- my theories are not fact, only working postulates until more information is obtained. But until more models can be found in original packaging, like Jim's fortunate find of the FT's in Theo Parker boxes, we have little information to work with.
>
> Jim H., any more thoughts on theses since our last discussions? Anyone else have other theories?
>
> W Jay W.
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, just saw these two listings, not bidding on either one, but curious as always for group ID comments on early cast diesels:
> >
> >
> >
> > BRASS FT SHELLS FOR HOBBYTOWN OR LINDSAY DRIVES
> > 0 Bids $19.99
> >
> >
> >
> > BRASS ENGINE SHELLS FOR
> > HOBBYTOWN OR LINDSAY DRIVES
> > 0 Bids $19.99
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Btw, I lost out this past week on two ebay listings for GARCO Baldwin
> > switchers, anyone in the group happen to win either one?
> >
> > Chris B.
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13870 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Odd cast brass F units plus progress
Hi W Jay W , Chris B,  All,
 
         I had seen the Ebay auction selling those heavy sand cast ? brass / bronze FT shells. Over the years many have been very hard to pin down as to who really made what.
 
   Case in point is the first picture I sent ( sorry it turned sideways and I don't know why.) This drawing was taken from a 1993 issue of " The Reporting Mark", newsletter of the now defunct HOSC&H-SIG. The drawing was made by a man that was trying to put together a comprehensive identification paper of all HO  F  style units. This was submitted by him as he searched for the original maker. If you study it you will see it is very close to these Ebay shells and my unknown set. Part of the writing with the drawing states these are whitish in color and seem to be an aluminum casting. He also said he thought maybe Dallas Model Craft or Diesel Model Company ( another name used by DMC ).
 
   While no confirmation came from any of the then 400+ members I had to add GARCO / H J Garrett and Sons as a possibility to the list even though most of their items were mostly cast brass. The name that keeps bringing all these companies together was the person doing the major casting work for the above and others like Varney, A&S ( Adams & Son ). He did cast in brass, brass alloys up to bronze and aluminum.
 
   Until there is reason to change my mind I feel my odd set of FT'S were cast by A&S and sold under the GARCO name and then on to the Pittsburg wholesaler on the box I have that has no manufacturers name on it.
 
 
       Second picture is for all members who bought me the paper sided E style Dallas Model Craft "B" unit . It will show you the progress as main body reassembled , trucks being added but still need to set height to get the same as the A unit I have. The paper sides have been sent out to a good train friend from the old HOSC&H-SIG group who over the years has found ways to restore paper sides and has become very good at it.
 
                                  Jim H
 
 
 
 
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13871 From: Carl Neste Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Damaged Decal
I have Suncoast Models Kit #SC-1 Santa Fe Panel Boxcar kit, unbuilt as yet. Yesterday I was looking through some of my stock, and discovered that this kit must have suffered water damage in the past. While everything else in the kit is okay and all there, the decal has separated from the backing sheet. It's still flat and intact. Does anyone have any ideas how to make the decal again useable?
Carl
Group: vintageHO Message: 13872 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
Wet the backing sheet and see if the decal will re-adhere to it for protective purposes.  If you want to try and install the decal, it must be on a glossy surface and you must use a setting solution.  I have tried Walthers Solva-Set with good results most of the time.  There used to be a stronger one called Decal Set but the maker went out of business.  Shop for others that might be available.  The setting solution softens the decal film and makes it snuggle down into cracks and around things like ribs but a smooth paint surface is most important.  Dull paint has a rough surface. 

Put the decal right where you want it to stay, blot away all water, flow the setting fluid all around the edges...  Watch for white spots as the decal drys.  These are air bubbles trapped under the film.  Prick them with a shrp pin or sharp blade.  Apply just a dab of setting fluid on the puncture and see if it will seep into the white places.  This may take a lot of time but it will work for eliminating bubbles of air under the film.  Keep doing it until the white disappears.

After the film is thoroughly dry, wash the area with a swab wet with water to remove any glue and setting residue.  When the decal is satisfactory to you...  and thoroughly dry...  spray it with a decal dulling coat such as DullCoat or whatever you like to use.

The separated, yet whole, decal should be salvageable this way.  It has worked for me.  Patience and taking your time is the main thing to remember.  It cannot be rushed.

Don Staton in VA.
==================================================================
Snipped...
Carl Neste wrote:
 

I have Suncoast Models Kit #SC-1 Santa Fe Panel Boxcar kit, unbuilt as yet. Yesterday I was looking through some of my stock, and discovered that this kit must have suffered water damage in the past. While everything else in the kit is okay and all there, the decal has separated from the backing sheet. It's still flat and intact. Does anyone have any ideas how to make the decal again useable?
Carl
Group: vintageHO Message: 13873 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
   Hi Don, Carl,
 
           Just a small addition. Was that Decal Set company that is out of business Champion ? If so they also made a solution that removed air bubbles . You put it on first, applied the wet decal and then the setting solution. Saved a lot of time busting air bubbles through the decal but was not a 100% cure
 
    Sorry I can't help much more with saving the decal if you are not going to use right away except for what Don S suggested . Wet the piece of  backing it was on ( in fact any decal still usable decal backing paper ) and see if the decal will go back on and after dry stay on. Hopefully when you get to use it you can wet it again and slide it off.
 
                                                             Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Damaged Decal

 

Wet the backing sheet and see if the decal will re-adhere to it for protective purposes.  If you want to try and install the decal, it must be on a glossy surface and you must use a setting solution.  I have tried Walthers Solva-Set with good results most of the time.  There used to be a stronger one called Decal Set but the maker went out of business.  Shop for others that might be available.  The setting solution softens the decal film and makes it snuggle down into cracks and around things like ribs but a smooth paint surface is most important.  Dull paint has a rough surface. 

Put the decal right where you want it to stay, blot away all water, flow the setting fluid all around the edges...  Watch for white spots as the decal drys.  These are air bubbles trapped under the film.  Prick them with a shrp pin or sharp blade.  Apply just a dab of setting fluid on the puncture and see if it will seep into the white places.  This may take a lot of time but it will work for eliminating bubbles of air under the film.  Keep doing it until the white disappears.

After the film is thoroughly dry, wash the area with a swab wet with water to remove any glue and setting residue.  When the decal is satisfactory to you...  and thoroughly dry...  spray it with a decal dulling coat such as DullCoat or whatever you like to use.

The separated, yet whole, decal should be salvageable this way.  It has worked for me.  Patience and taking your time is the main thing to remember.  It cannot be rushed.

Don Staton in VA.
============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =========
Snipped...
Carl Neste wrote:

 

I have Suncoast Models Kit #SC-1 Santa Fe Panel Boxcar kit, unbuilt as yet. Yesterday I was looking through some of my stock, and discovered that this kit must have suffered water damage in the past. While everything else in the kit is okay and all there, the decal has separated from the backing sheet. It's still flat and intact. Does anyone have any ideas how to make the decal again useable?
Carl

Group: vintageHO Message: 13874 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
Jim, yes it was Champion Decal Set.
Don Staton in Va
=============================================
Snipped...

jim heckard wrote:
 

   Hi Don, Carl,
 
           Just a small addition. Was that Decal Set company that is out of business Champion ? If so they also made a solution that removed air bubbles . You put it on first, applied the wet decal and then the setting solution. Saved a lot of time busting air bubbles through the decal but was not a 100% cure
 
    Sorry I can't help much more with saving the decal if you are not going to use right away except for what Don S suggested . Wet the piece of  backing it was on ( in fact any decal still usable decal backing paper ) and see if the decal will go back on and after dry stay on. Hopefully when you get to use it you can wet it again and slide it off.
 
                                                             Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Damaged Decal

 

Wet the backing sheet and see if the decal will re-adhere to it for protective purposes.  If you want to try and install the decal, it must be on a glossy surface and you must use a setting solution.  I have tried Walthers Solva-Set with good results most of the time.  There


Group: vintageHO Message: 13875 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Question
             I am in the midst of writing small descriptions for many items from my vintage collection to be attached to pictures that appear in the Gallery section of hoseeker and have come across something I had never heard.  I might know it by another word.
 
      It concerns the word "QUILL" drivers that were used on Schrader GG-1 items from 1960-1961. The first units made from 1956-1959 used turned drivers which I understand.  The word quill stumps me. Can anyone explain. Thanks ahead of time.
 
 
 
                                                                           Jim H 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13876 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
The prototype GG1s had a 'quill' drive.  Not sure what that meant, though.
Donahue
Group: vintageHO Message: 13877 From: Gary Woodard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
Hi Carl,
 
It depends on the age of the decal, and how bad the humidity damage is to it, if it was just a case of being an old decal, the shooting a light coat of glosscoat on it would probably save it, you might try that, but even when its just an old decal, theres no promise that it can be saved, thats about the only thing I know to do with something like that, other than that, Microscale probably has the correct decals for the class of car your talking about there, however, it wouldn't be original.
 
Gary W
 

 
Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



From: Carl Neste <cmneste@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, April 15, 2010 1:27:11 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Damaged Decal

 

I have Suncoast Models Kit #SC-1 Santa Fe Panel Boxcar kit, unbuilt as yet. Yesterday I was looking through some of my stock, and discovered that this kit must have suffered water damage in the past. While everything else in the kit is okay and all there, the decal has separated from the backing sheet. It's still flat and intact. Does anyone have any ideas how to make the decal again useable?
Carl

Group: vintageHO Message: 13878 From: Garry Spear Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml

See Above:

Garry Spear

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 3:22 PM, <BillyDee53@...> wrote:
 

The prototype GG1s had a 'quill' drive.  Not sure what that meant, though.
Donahue


Group: vintageHO Message: 13879 From: bob d Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
I've "floated" "wrinkled" decals in lukewarm water to the point where they actually separated from the paper. Being very careful, and leaving both the decal and the paper in the water, I CAREFULLY placed the decal back onto the paper. Have a pencil or a small piece of dowel rod handy to refloat the decal should it become "wadded up". Be advised not to slide the decal too much during reapplication as such will remove the adhesive. I then attached them to a "drying line"(not much more than a piece of heavy cotton binding string, actually) with a small clip to dry.

The word of the day here is PATIENCE!!!!!!

This post reminds me of my model car build back in the 1960's. What memories!!!! AMT, Revell, Jo-Han, and the smell of Testor's spray paint and glue......

Bob(just dreamin' of the OLD days)

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Neste" <cmneste@...> wrote:
>
> I have Suncoast Models Kit #SC-1 Santa Fe Panel Boxcar kit, unbuilt as yet.
> Yesterday I was looking through some of my stock, and discovered that this
> kit must have suffered water damage in the past. While everything else in
> the kit is okay and all there, the decal has separated from the backing
> sheet. It's still flat and intact. Does anyone have any ideas how to make
> the decal again useable?
> Carl
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13880 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Garry Spear wrote:
>
>
> http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml
> <http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml>
>
Think the link explains it perfectly... want to add that the Milwaukee
Westinghouse boxcabs were universally named "Quills" because they had
this sort of drive.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13881 From: Chris B Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Jim I've read the term before, in that context, I have a weak hunch on what it means...lemme go google it a bit
Chris B
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:18:34 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Question

 

             I am in the midst of writing small descriptions for many items from my vintage collection to be attached to pictures that appear in the Gallery section of hoseeker and have come across something I had never heard.  I might know it by another word.
 
      It concerns the word "QUILL" drivers that were used on Schrader GG-1 items from 1960-1961. The first units made from 1956-1959 used turned drivers which I understand.  The word quill stumps me. Can anyone explain. Thanks ahead of time.
 
 
 
                                                                           Jim H 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13882 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Thanks for the link concerning the real Quill drive in GG-1s. Very
interesting. However I'm still confused as what I have run across is Quill
Drivers, not Quill Drive, in HO scale.

The statement that threw me appears in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon
Volume I Page 64 under Schrader HO GG-1's "1st units used TURNED DRIVERS
, 1960-1961 units used cast QUILL DRIVERS ( notice he cites HO scale DRIVERS
not Drive".

Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question


> Garry Spear wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml
>> <http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml>
>>
> Think the link explains it perfectly... want to add that the Milwaukee
> Westinghouse boxcabs were universally named "Quills" because they had
> this sort of drive.
>
> Gerold
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13883 From: Chris B Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Jim wikipedia says the GG1 and EP3s had quill drives and shows what a quill drive is
AFAI can tell, the quill part of the drive is a hollow drive shaft with a linked and driven shaft inside the hollow shaft
The basic example they give of a quill drive is a drill press shaft
That can move vertically while also being driven radially...

My guess is the HO lit extended th quill drive term for the GG1 to include the connected wheels, perhaps inacurately

It had a "quill" drive
The model had drive wheels
Also commonly called "drivers"
So maybe some copywriter called the model GG1 wheels "quill drivers" because he liked how it sounded and looked in the ad...

The reason that's a little funny is because the only definition I could find online for "quill drivers" was that it was an archaic slang term for writers!

Quill pens, right,?!
-----Original Message-----
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:13:26
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question

Thanks for the link concerning the real Quill drive in GG-1s. Very
interesting. However I'm still confused as what I have run across is Quill
Drivers, not Quill Drive, in HO scale.

The statement that threw me appears in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon
Volume I Page 64 under Schrader HO GG-1's "1st units used TURNED DRIVERS
, 1960-1961 units used cast QUILL DRIVERS ( notice he cites HO scale DRIVERS
not Drive".

Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question


> Garry Spear wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml
>> <http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml>
>>
> Think the link explains it perfectly... want to add that the Milwaukee
> Westinghouse boxcabs were universally named "Quills" because they had
> this sort of drive.
>
> Gerold
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Group: vintageHO Message: 13884 From: jim heckard Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
            Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the term. Could a Quill Driver in HO mean a driver like Fleischmann had where the gear is already cast on the inside of a driver. If that is what it means Schrader had to make a HUGE change in the drive from those units made from 1956-1959 ( turned drivers )  to those made in 1960-1961 ( Quill drivers ).
 
                                                          Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
To: Vint Ho
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question

 

Jim I've read the term before, in that context, I have a weak hunch on what it means...lemme go google it a bit
Chris B


From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:18:34 -0400
Subject: [vintageHO] Question

 

             I am in the midst of writing small descriptions for many items from my vintage collection to be attached to pictures that appear in the Gallery section of hoseeker and have come across something I had never heard.  I might know it by another word.
 
      It concerns the word "QUILL" drivers that were used on Schrader GG-1 items from 1960-1961. The first units made from 1956-1959 used turned drivers which I understand.  The word quill stumps me. Can anyone explain. Thanks ahead of time.
 
 
 
                                                                           Jim H 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13885 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: quill drive
jim heckard wrote:
>
>
> Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the term. Could a Quill
> Driver in HO mean a driver like Fleischmann had where the gear is
> already cast on the inside of a driver. If that is what it means
> Schrader had to make a HUGE change in the drive from those units made
> from 1956-1959 ( turned drivers ) to those made in 1960-1961 ( Quill
> drivers ).
>
>
Quill means in prototype RR context - apart from the tech details like
hollow shafts etc - that the dampening springs which are an essential
part of this type of drive are visible on the side of the drive wheels
of the respective locomotive. In case of the Schrader models, the first
ones apparently had simple smooth wheels while "Quill Drive" may
indicate that Schrader used cast wheel centers, with the springs cast in
semi relief to gave an more prototypical appearance.

Rivarossis GG1 and many European electric locos used this type of wheels
too.

Gerold
Group: vintageHO Message: 13886 From: Roger Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
Hi,
Thanks for the comments.
I have gotten much pleasure from finding, building and showing
this collection.
I have another of the 2 in 1 hopper kits on the shelf for some
rainy and cold week (or 2). Yes, they make great looking models.
By the look of the listings and prices for Ambroid kits on e-bay
I would not consider then dead by any means.
And I keep watching for certain ones to add to my shelf.
I also will be watching for another of the Liquid Air tank car.
The 2 pics I posted are all I have of that one.
I did not copy any of the reviews on the Ambroid kits.
I don't even remember seeing any reviews. I guess I did not look
because I did not need convincing.
Since finishing those past efforts and after about 1988 I
have not looked for list of the later kits from NE, QC, GC,
any others.

Oh, by the way,,, for any who may wonder, I used the Ambroid
cement almost exclusively in making all the models,

And I still use it!! along with other brands/types!!
Roger


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Roger,
>
> Thanks also for posting the Ambroid article written by Roger Horne circa 1980. It certainly expanded my knowlege of a line that I enjoyed building several of when they were new. The first Amberoid kit I ever saw assembled was from the 2 in 1 kit, the Kopper's cylindrical covered hopper, which a milkman neighbor had built with his excellent skills in the first weeks after it was availible.
>
> I could not believe how realistic it was, and of a modern car, which is what we saw around us and wanted to model. Cost was a factor to a young teen as first with no fear of possible difficulties or lack of skills. For me those bridges were crossed with my first craftsman wood kit, the QC tri-level auto rack - but that is another story. My favorite Ambroid to build in those later teen and school days was the B&O Cushion Coil car.
>
> As a postscript to the article, would add that the demise of the craftsman type wood kits as a popular prototype specific modeling method did not die off, but morphed into the several excellent lines of resin kits today, such as Westerfield and Sunshine; (although pupularity does not measure in the 5000's for each kit!).
>
> Besides Quality Craft/Gloor Craft which bridged the eras from wood to to resin, Roller Bearing models (Ed Petras) which began in the mid to late 1970's (just outside this group's usual scope), offered mostly modern freight cars of that era, and some, notibly his tank cars fit in well with Ambroid and QC models.
>
> You mentioned compiling a book of all of the Ambroid ads over the years. Do you also have the MR and RMC reviews of the kits? Sometimes those reviews were helpful in assembley of the kits.
>
> My Display Craft Liquid Air Tank kit is still on the "to build" shelf, along with a few others, and your photos may be just the sort of push to finally get me started on that beauty!
>
> W Jay W.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@> wrote:
> >
> > I found some pics!! The Display Craft Liquid Air Tank and the
> > QC all aluminum Tank car. Both great kits. sure wish I still
> > had them. If you decide to not build your Display Craft kit
> > I would like to do it again.
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Roger,
> > >
> > > Thanks for posting your Ambroid list, as it is great to be able to find all the information in one place, rather then checking various old master catlogs and ads.
> > >
> > > I have a question that you may be able to answer. Display Craft produced one kit for Ambroid, and one other kit, very similar to Ambroid quality and detail sold direct by Display Craft, a "modern" 60' UTLX Liquid Gas Tank Car; (I hesitate to use the word modern for a fifty-year old freight car).
> > >
> > > Do you know if that Display Craft UTLX kit was originally designed to be an Ambroid kit and the deal fell through, possibly because it had some seemingly very difficult assembly steps in bending wood parts around the tank? Mine is still unbuilt. Display Craft heavilly advertised their UTLX kit as well, but it seems to not have been reveiwed by MR or RMC.
> > >
> > > Perhaps the production of two model railroad kits were a sideline for them.
> > >
> > > W. Jay W.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello everyone;
> > > > I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> > > > and WoW, where have I been???
> > > > Well, here's a little of it!!
> > > > Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> > > > was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> > > > railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> > > > by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> > > > Ambroid kits"??
> > > > This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> > > > the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> > > > now, the future of all this.
> > > > After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> > > > and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> > > > found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> > > > why I'm interested again.
> > > > Now a little about 'the past'.
> > > > I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> > > > Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> > > > portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> > > > At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> > > > her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> > > > kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> > > > familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> > > > But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> > > > look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> > > > Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> > > > Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> > > > I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> > > > whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> > > > finding these kits.
> > > > Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> > > > e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> > > > followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> > > > on leads.
> > > > Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> > > > for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> > > > and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> > > > All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> > > > years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> > > > 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> > > > names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> > > > kits.
> > > > I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> > > > with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> > > > developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> > > > wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> > > > I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> > > > wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> > > > local,regional and national events.
> > > > Now they are out again!!!
> > > > And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> > > > With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> > > > I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> > > > you are all up too!!!
> > > > So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> > > > as teasers, and will close with this.
> > > > Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> > > > person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> > > > that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> > > > collection to exist!! Anyone???
> > > > see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> > > > Roger
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13887 From: Garry Spear Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml

Look again.  The third paragraph has a description of all the parts and how the function.

Garry

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
 

Jim wikipedia says the GG1 and EP3s had quill drives and shows what a quill drive is
AFAI can tell, the quill part of the drive is a hollow drive shaft with a linked and driven shaft inside the hollow shaft
The basic example they give of a quill drive is a drill press shaft
That can move vertically while also being driven radially...

My guess is the HO lit extended th quill drive term for the GG1 to include the connected wheels, perhaps inacurately

It had a "quill" drive
The model had drive wheels
Also commonly called "drivers"
So maybe some copywriter called the model GG1 wheels "quill drivers" because he liked how it sounded and looked in the ad...

The reason that's a little funny is because the only definition I could find online for "quill drivers" was that it was an archaic slang term for writers!

Quill pens, right,?!
-----Original Message-----
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:13:26
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question

Thanks for the link concerning the real Quill drive in GG-1s. Very
interesting. However I'm still confused as what I have run across is Quill
Drivers, not Quill Drive, in HO scale.

The statement that threw me appears in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon
Volume I Page 64 under Schrader HO GG-1's "1st units used TURNED DRIVERS
, 1960-1961 units used cast QUILL DRIVERS ( notice he cites HO scale DRIVERS
not Drive".

Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question


> Garry Spear wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml
>> <http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml>
>>
> Think the link explains it perfectly... want to add that the Milwaukee
> Westinghouse boxcabs were universally named "Quills" because they had
> this sort of drive.
>
> Gerold
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




Group: vintageHO Message: 13888 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Damaged Decal
depending on how heavy the film is, you might be able to dip them in water and use a piece of the backing sheet to lift the pieces into place. Put a puddle of Micro Scale blue down, place the decal into it.  When it is setting, then use MS red.  gj
----- Original Message -----
From: Carl Neste
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 10:27 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Damaged Decal

I have Suncoast Models Kit #SC-1 Santa Fe Panel Boxcar kit, unbuilt as yet. Yesterday I was looking through some of my stock, and discovered that this kit must have suffered water damage in the past. While everything else in the kit is okay and all there, the decal has separated from the backing sheet. It's still flat and intact. Does anyone have any ideas how to make the decal again useable?
Carl
Group: vintageHO Message: 13889 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Check Middleton's "When the Steam Railroads Electrified," pp420---has a good discussion of the various drive systems-- (nobody used the worm and gear so popular with modelers--)   8^)     gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:18 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Question

             I am in the midst of writing small descriptions for many items from my vintage collection to be attached to pictures that appear in the Gallery section of hoseeker and have come across something I had never heard.  I might know it by another word.
 
      It concerns the word "QUILL" drivers that were used on Schrader GG-1 items from 1960-1961. The first units made from 1956-1959 used turned drivers which I understand.  The word quill stumps me. Can anyone explain. Thanks ahead of time.
 
 
 
                                                                           Jim H 
Group: vintageHO Message: 13890 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
Might refer to lost-wax driver centers showing the quill-drive detail. gj

----- Original Message -----
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question


> Thanks for the link concerning the real Quill drive in GG-1s. Very
> interesting. However I'm still confused as what I have run across is Quill
> Drivers, not Quill Drive, in HO scale.
>
> The statement that threw me appears in Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon
> Volume I Page 64 under Schrader HO GG-1's "1st units used TURNED
> DRIVERS
> , 1960-1961 units used cast QUILL DRIVERS ( notice he cites HO scale
> DRIVERS
> not Drive".
>
> Jim H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question
>
>
>> Garry Spear wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml
>>> <http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/quill.shtml>
>>>
>> Think the link explains it perfectly... want to add that the Milwaukee
>> Westinghouse boxcabs were universally named "Quills" because they had
>> this sort of drive.
>>
>> Gerold
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13891 From: Denny Anspach Date: 4/15/2010
Subject: Re: Question
The quill electric locomotive drive was a once-popular means of creating a separate floating suspension for the relatively delicate elecric power motor actually driving any individual wheel set from the hard jolts that the suspension of more durable wheel set which inevitably undergoes when it crosses the myriad rail joints that make up even the shortest journey. Instead of a solid gear train connecting the motor with the drive wheels, the connection between motor and wheel is instead made through supple coil springs propelling the wheel by pressure on the spokes, not the axle.

Look to the drive wheels of your models with "quill"drives. If the wheels are not spoked, and if the spoked wheels do not have coil springs between the spokes, then the model does not meet the definition.

Denny
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento
Group: vintageHO Message: 13892 From: Roger Date: 4/16/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / Display Craft
I just crossed one off my list.
On e-bay I just won the Special 3 kits in 1 (K-S)(K-8)
3 car open clerestory roof passenger set.
I will build these this coming winter and dec for ops on my
Union Valley & Southern Rwy."The Ambroid Route"


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Thanks for the comments.
> I have gotten much pleasure from finding, building and showing
> this collection.
> I have another of the 2 in 1 hopper kits on the shelf for some
> rainy and cold week (or 2). Yes, they make great looking models.
> By the look of the listings and prices for Ambroid kits on e-bay
> I would not consider then dead by any means.
> And I keep watching for certain ones to add to my shelf.
> I also will be watching for another of the Liquid Air tank car.
> The 2 pics I posted are all I have of that one.
> I did not copy any of the reviews on the Ambroid kits.
> I don't even remember seeing any reviews. I guess I did not look
> because I did not need convincing.
> Since finishing those past efforts and after about 1988 I
> have not looked for list of the later kits from NE, QC, GC,
> any others.
>
> Oh, by the way,,, for any who may wonder, I used the Ambroid
> cement almost exclusively in making all the models,
>
> And I still use it!! along with other brands/types!!
> Roger
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Roger,
> >
> > Thanks also for posting the Ambroid article written by Roger Horne circa 1980. It certainly expanded my knowlege of a line that I enjoyed building several of when they were new. The first Amberoid kit I ever saw assembled was from the 2 in 1 kit, the Kopper's cylindrical covered hopper, which a milkman neighbor had built with his excellent skills in the first weeks after it was availible.
> >
> > I could not believe how realistic it was, and of a modern car, which is what we saw around us and wanted to model. Cost was a factor to a young teen as first with no fear of possible difficulties or lack of skills. For me those bridges were crossed with my first craftsman wood kit, the QC tri-level auto rack - but that is another story. My favorite Ambroid to build in those later teen and school days was the B&O Cushion Coil car.
> >
> > As a postscript to the article, would add that the demise of the craftsman type wood kits as a popular prototype specific modeling method did not die off, but morphed into the several excellent lines of resin kits today, such as Westerfield and Sunshine; (although pupularity does not measure in the 5000's for each kit!).
> >
> > Besides Quality Craft/Gloor Craft which bridged the eras from wood to to resin, Roller Bearing models (Ed Petras) which began in the mid to late 1970's (just outside this group's usual scope), offered mostly modern freight cars of that era, and some, notibly his tank cars fit in well with Ambroid and QC models.
> >
> > You mentioned compiling a book of all of the Ambroid ads over the years. Do you also have the MR and RMC reviews of the kits? Sometimes those reviews were helpful in assembley of the kits.
> >
> > My Display Craft Liquid Air Tank kit is still on the "to build" shelf, along with a few others, and your photos may be just the sort of push to finally get me started on that beauty!
> >
> > W Jay W.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I found some pics!! The Display Craft Liquid Air Tank and the
> > > QC all aluminum Tank car. Both great kits. sure wish I still
> > > had them. If you decide to not build your Display Craft kit
> > > I would like to do it again.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Roger,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for posting your Ambroid list, as it is great to be able to find all the information in one place, rather then checking various old master catlogs and ads.
> > > >
> > > > I have a question that you may be able to answer. Display Craft produced one kit for Ambroid, and one other kit, very similar to Ambroid quality and detail sold direct by Display Craft, a "modern" 60' UTLX Liquid Gas Tank Car; (I hesitate to use the word modern for a fifty-year old freight car).
> > > >
> > > > Do you know if that Display Craft UTLX kit was originally designed to be an Ambroid kit and the deal fell through, possibly because it had some seemingly very difficult assembly steps in bending wood parts around the tank? Mine is still unbuilt. Display Craft heavilly advertised their UTLX kit as well, but it seems to not have been reveiwed by MR or RMC.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps the production of two model railroad kits were a sideline for them.
> > > >
> > > > W. Jay W.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello everyone;
> > > > > I'm new here, was just told of this group a couple days ago,
> > > > > and WoW, where have I been???
> > > > > Well, here's a little of it!!
> > > > > Name, Roger Horne, Live in Roseboro, NC, I grew up here but
> > > > > was "away" for 55 years.... Also, Iv'e been away from model
> > > > > railroading for the past 20 years, was recently re-invigorated
> > > > > by a simple question,,,, "was I still interested in some
> > > > > Ambroid kits"??
> > > > > This caused me to get out the collection, dust it off, hang
> > > > > the cases on the wall and start thinking about the past and
> > > > > now, the future of all this.
> > > > > After job transfers, cross country moves, retirement,
> > > > > and then leaving a lot of mrr stuff behind I just recently
> > > > > found I now have space for some modeling again. So, that's
> > > > > why I'm interested again.
> > > > > Now a little about 'the past'.
> > > > > I was very active in NMRA activities in PNR, 4th. Div. in
> > > > > Seattle, WA from about 1972 til abt 1992. I had a small
> > > > > portable layout and attended a lot of train shows.
> > > > > At a show a lady offered to give me some "old stuff" from
> > > > > her passed husband. I found included in this stuff 5 Ambroid
> > > > > kits, 2 built up cars - kinda poorly done, I was not at all
> > > > > familier with the Ambroids,,, Yet!!!
> > > > > But after first 'cleaning up the two built cars, making them
> > > > > look a lot better, I decided to build a Kit..
> > > > > Well, with a week of carful work I turned out a very nice car!!
> > > > > Then I did another one! And now it's all History...
> > > > > I made a public statement, Aloud!, that I would like to build the
> > > > > whole collection, did not know what that meant!! but I started
> > > > > finding these kits.
> > > > > Keep in mind, this was in the early 1980's, no internet/e-mail.
> > > > > e-bay. A lot of friends helped, some gave me a kit here and there,
> > > > > followed adds in the mags, called cross country to follow up
> > > > > on leads.
> > > > > Within one year I had found at least one of every kit produced
> > > > > for Ambroid and made good progress on documenting the collection
> > > > > and history/dates regarding the companies involved.
> > > > > All the while I was busily building kits. At the end of two
> > > > > years I had completed the entire collection!, of 62 kits,
> > > > > 3 were 2 car kits, 3 others were available in multiple road
> > > > > names. Ac tually, I've built well over 100 Ambroid or Craftsman
> > > > > kits.
> > > > > I built all the cars with care, as the plans/parts provided
> > > > > with only a little 'added' details. Certain techniques were
> > > > > developed/used to produce as nice a finish as i could on these
> > > > > wood kit cars. The intent all along was for a Display Collection.
> > > > > I built special cases (5) to permanently hose the cars for either
> > > > > wall mount or table stand exhibit, and have shown them at several
> > > > > local,regional and national events.
> > > > > Now they are out again!!!
> > > > > And I am so happy to find a group like this to talk to.
> > > > > With 14000 posts it will take a while to catch up with you all!!
> > > > > I see a lot of Ambroid posts so I'll start there and see what
> > > > > you are all up too!!!
> > > > > So, I'll leave it to this intro for now,,, and post a few pics
> > > > > as teasers, and will close with this.
> > > > > Back in the 'day' I a=dvertised widely and never found another
> > > > > person who had build this entire collection, So, I re-state
> > > > > that I believe this to be the only complete Ambroid kit/car
> > > > > collection to exist!! Anyone???
> > > > > see "Rogers Ambroids" album.
> > > > > Roger
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13893 From: bob d Date: 4/16/2010
Subject: Need ID on Brass Tender
Need a bit of feedback here on this item currently on eBay..
http://cgi.ebay.com/UNAMED-BRASS-TENDER_W0QQitemZ380225237829QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item588730b345

Looks to me to possibly be an Oriental, maybe Kemtron, tender for a 2-6-2, 2-8-0 or 2-6-0. Any other ideas?

Bob
Group: vintageHO Message: 13894 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/17/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / New Haven Coach
Hi Roger, & all Ambroid fans,

One very early Ambroid item, actually plans, I am looking for were issued in 1948 for a New Haven streamlined coach. The plans alone, there was no kit issued with them, were reveiewed in the July 1948 Model Railroader Trade Topics, page 48. It would be fun to build one of these, and if you or anyone else has the plans, I will reimburse you or anyone else for a full-sized copy. Although there may have been a advertisment offering them, I first learned of the plans through the MR review.

I have found that the MR and RMC product reviews are an excellent supplemental documentation of kits that may not have been advertised. Many manufacturers saved on advertising costs, sometimes for years, by keeping their products in front of the modeler's eye by simply submitting each new kit for review. By rough count, 41 Ambroid items were reviewed from 1948-1978, some of them by both magazines for the same model, for a total of approximately 57 seperate reviews!

An invaluable guide to the published MR and RMC reviews that I use is the Composite Product Review Index published by John Swift in 1983 which I understand the NMRA was looking to reprint at one time.

W Jay W.





--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Thanks for the comments.
> I have gotten much pleasure from finding, building and showing
> this collection.
> I have another of the 2 in 1 hopper kits on the shelf for some
> rainy and cold week (or 2). Yes, they make great looking models.
> By the look of the listings and prices for Ambroid kits on e-bay
> I would not consider then dead by any means.
> And I keep watching for certain ones to add to my shelf.
> I also will be watching for another of the Liquid Air tank car.
> The 2 pics I posted are all I have of that one.
> I did not copy any of the reviews on the Ambroid kits.
> I don't even remember seeing any reviews. I guess I did not look
> because I did not need convincing.
> Since finishing those past efforts and after about 1988 I
> have not looked for list of the later kits from NE, QC, GC,
> any others.
>
> Oh, by the way,,, for any who may wonder, I used the Ambroid
> cement almost exclusively in making all the models,
>
> And I still use it!! along with other brands/types!!
> Roger
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Roger,
> >
> > Thanks also for posting the Ambroid article written by Roger Horne circa 1980. It certainly expanded my knowlege of a line that I enjoyed building several of when they were new. The first Amberoid kit I ever saw assembled was from the 2 in 1 kit, the Kopper's cylindrical covered hopper, which a milkman neighbor had built with his excellent skills in the first weeks after it was availible.
> >
> > I could not believe how realistic it was, and of a modern car, which is what we saw around us and wanted to model. Cost was a factor to a young teen as first with no fear of possible difficulties or lack of skills. For me those bridges were crossed with my first craftsman wood kit, the QC tri-level auto rack - but that is another story. My favorite Ambroid to build in those later teen and school days was the B&O Cushion Coil car.
> >
> > As a postscript to the article, would add that the demise of the craftsman type wood kits as a popular prototype specific modeling method did not die off, but morphed into the several excellent lines of resin kits today, such as Westerfield and Sunshine; (although pupularity does not measure in the 5000's for each kit!).
> >
> > Besides Quality Craft/Gloor Craft which bridged the eras from wood to to resin, Roller Bearing models (Ed Petras) which began in the mid to late 1970's (just outside this group's usual scope), offered mostly modern freight cars of that era, and some, notibly his tank cars fit in well with Ambroid and QC models.
> >
> > You mentioned compiling a book of all of the Ambroid ads over the years. Do you also have the MR and RMC reviews of the kits? Sometimes those reviews were helpful in assembley of the kits.
> >
> > My Display Craft Liquid Air Tank kit is still on the "to build" shelf, along with a few others, and your photos may be just the sort of push to finally get me started on that beauty!
> >
> > W Jay W.
> >
\Prior messages excised (Jay)
Group: vintageHO Message: 13895 From: bigmama856 Date: 4/17/2010
Subject: Link or Web site address needed
Anyway on finding website recently developed/created/started by:
jecnnlly? a/k/a "paulushook" on ebay?

specialty = HO SCALE MODELS, ATHEARNS, ETC
Group: vintageHO Message: 13896 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/17/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
group.

File : /Ambroid Kwikbild 100.jpg
Uploaded by : arefhorn <arefhorn@...>
Description : 1949 Ambroid Ad for Kwikbild plan #100

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Ambroid%20Kwikbild%20100.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

arefhorn <arefhorn@...>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13897 From: Roger Date: 4/17/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / New Haven Coach
W Jay W.
I just put up a file copy of the ad from March 1949 MR for
the Kwikbild #100, It is the earliest dated ad in my Ambroid
album. It would be fun to add this to our Ambroid "consist".
I wonder if possibly Kalmbach Library could have a copy of this??
There may be someone here or elsewhere with the plan sheet.
Is there a way to ask this question to a wider list such as
the whole NMRA, rather than just this group??? Just wondered.
When I was first searching for the Ambroids I would put open
ads in the MR classifieds. Pre internet, but very effective.

I am working on maybe getting access to a many years collection
of MR and do some serious research on the reviews and other
info.
Roger

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Roger, & all Ambroid fans,
>
> One very early Ambroid item, actually plans, I am looking for were issued in 1948 for a New Haven streamlined coach. The plans alone, there was no kit issued with them, were reveiewed in the July 1948 Model Railroader Trade Topics, page 48. It would be fun to build one of these, and if you or anyone else has the plans, I will reimburse you or anyone else for a full-sized copy. Although there may have been a advertisment offering them, I first learned of the plans through the MR review.
>
> I have found that the MR and RMC product reviews are an excellent supplemental documentation of kits that may not have been advertised. Many manufacturers saved on advertising costs, sometimes for years, by keeping their products in front of the modeler's eye by simply submitting each new kit for review. By rough count, 41 Ambroid items were reviewed from 1948-1978, some of them by both magazines for the same model, for a total of approximately 57 seperate reviews!
>
> An invaluable guide to the published MR and RMC reviews that I use is the Composite Product Review Index published by John Swift in 1983 which I understand the NMRA was looking to reprint at one time.
>
> W Jay W.
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > Thanks for the comments.
> > I have gotten much pleasure from finding, building and showing
> > this collection.
> > I have another of the 2 in 1 hopper kits on the shelf for some
> > rainy and cold week (or 2). Yes, they make great looking models.
> > By the look of the listings and prices for Ambroid kits on e-bay
> > I would not consider then dead by any means.
> > And I keep watching for certain ones to add to my shelf.
> > I also will be watching for another of the Liquid Air tank car.
> > The 2 pics I posted are all I have of that one.
> > I did not copy any of the reviews on the Ambroid kits.
> > I don't even remember seeing any reviews. I guess I did not look
> > because I did not need convincing.
> > Since finishing those past efforts and after about 1988 I
> > have not looked for list of the later kits from NE, QC, GC,
> > any others.
> >
> > Oh, by the way,,, for any who may wonder, I used the Ambroid
> > cement almost exclusively in making all the models,
> >
> > And I still use it!! along with other brands/types!!
> > Roger
> >
> >
> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Roger,
> > >
> > > Thanks also for posting the Ambroid article written by Roger Horne circa 1980. It certainly expanded my knowlege of a line that I enjoyed building several of when they were new. The first Amberoid kit I ever saw assembled was from the 2 in 1 kit, the Kopper's cylindrical covered hopper, which a milkman neighbor had built with his excellent skills in the first weeks after it was availible.
> > >
> > > I could not believe how realistic it was, and of a modern car, which is what we saw around us and wanted to model. Cost was a factor to a young teen as first with no fear of possible difficulties or lack of skills. For me those bridges were crossed with my first craftsman wood kit, the QC tri-level auto rack - but that is another story. My favorite Ambroid to build in those later teen and school days was the B&O Cushion Coil car.
> > >
> > > As a postscript to the article, would add that the demise of the craftsman type wood kits as a popular prototype specific modeling method did not die off, but morphed into the several excellent lines of resin kits today, such as Westerfield and Sunshine; (although pupularity does not measure in the 5000's for each kit!).
> > >
> > > Besides Quality Craft/Gloor Craft which bridged the eras from wood to to resin, Roller Bearing models (Ed Petras) which began in the mid to late 1970's (just outside this group's usual scope), offered mostly modern freight cars of that era, and some, notibly his tank cars fit in well with Ambroid and QC models.
> > >
> > > You mentioned compiling a book of all of the Ambroid ads over the years. Do you also have the MR and RMC reviews of the kits? Sometimes those reviews were helpful in assembley of the kits.
> > >
> > > My Display Craft Liquid Air Tank kit is still on the "to build" shelf, along with a few others, and your photos may be just the sort of push to finally get me started on that beauty!
> > >
> > > W Jay W.
> > >
> \Prior messages excised (Jay)
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13898 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/18/2010
Subject: Re: The Ambroid Collection / New Haven Coach
Thank you, Roger! I had pulled some of my oldest MR's from 1948 and begun looking to see if there was an ad for it and had not reached 1949, so I was very pleased to see you posted a copy last night. Perhaps now that our other members see it, one will remember they have the plan sheet saved somewhere or will keep an eye out for it when reviewing old paper and catalogs at shows, etc. I also thought of reaching out to the New Haven Railroad Technical & Historic Society as one of their members may have a copy in their collection and will report back. W. Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger" <arefhorn@...> wrote:
>
> W Jay W.
> I just put up a file copy of the ad from March 1949 MR for
> the Kwikbild #100, It is the earliest dated ad in my Ambroid
> album. It would be fun to add this to our Ambroid "consist".
> I wonder if possibly Kalmbach Library could have a copy of this??
> There may be someone here or elsewhere with the plan sheet.
> Is there a way to ask this question to a wider list such as
> the whole NMRA, rather than just this group??? Just wondered.
> When I was first searching for the Ambroids I would put open
> ads in the MR classifieds. Pre internet, but very effective.
>
> I am working on maybe getting access to a many years collection
> of MR and do some serious research on the reviews and other
> info.
> Roger
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Roger, & all Ambroid fans,
> >
> > One very early Ambroid item, actually plans, I am looking for were issued in 1948 for a New Haven streamlined coach. The plans alone, there was no kit issued with them, were reveiewed in the July 1948 Model Railroader Trade Topics, page 48. It would be fun to build one of these, and if you or anyone else has the plans, I will reimburse you or anyone else for a full-sized copy. Although there may have been a advertisment offering them, I first learned of the plans through the MR review.
> >
> > I have found that the MR and RMC product reviews are an excellent supplemental documentation of kits that may not have been advertised. Many manufacturers saved on advertising costs, sometimes for years, by keeping their products in front of the modeler's eye by simply submitting each new kit for review. By rough count, 41 Ambroid items were reviewed from 1948-1978, some of them by both magazines for the same model, for a total of approximately 57 seperate reviews!
> >
> > An invaluable guide to the published MR and RMC reviews that I use is the Composite Product Review Index published by John Swift in 1983 which I understand the NMRA was looking to reprint at one time.
> >
> > W Jay W.
> >
> > >
> > \Prior messages excised (Jay)
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13899 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 4/18/2010
Subject: Door needed for Chester Combine
I am needing the small door for a Chester Combine.  Anyone have a spare?  I have a spare end door for a Observation.
 
Kent Hurley
Kansas City, MO


Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO Message: 13900 From: Robert Date: 4/19/2010
Subject: America's Hobby Center
Has anyone worked for America's Hobby Center in New York? They always had big ads in RMC and MR, but I got the impression they were more of a mail order company. I also heard some negative feedback about their customer service. What ever happened to Bernard B. Winston, their owner? Why was the service so bad?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13901 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 4/19/2010
Subject: Re: America's Hobby Center
I never had any trouble ordering from AHC.  If it was in stock, I got it and the price was right.
 
Brad Smith
Franklin, WI
Group: vintageHO Message: 13902 From: bongiovanni12001 Date: 4/20/2010
Subject: Re: America's Hobby Center
Bob, we just did some dialogue about AHC earlier this month. I had worked there for about a year in the late 60's. They were absolutely more of a mail order company then, and I believe for most of their existence. The current firm using the name says that they started in 1931, the date AHC did start, but I don't know if the Winston family is still involved or not. When I was there, Bernie, his wife, and his son all worked in the business.

Frank Bongiovanni

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <bobgrapes25@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone worked for America's Hobby Center in New York? They always had big ads in RMC and MR, but I got the impression they were more of a mail order company. I also heard some negative feedback about their customer service. What ever happened to Bernard B. Winston, their owner? Why was the service so bad?
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13903 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/20/2010
Subject: Unknown Coupler
Group,

A while back, someone referenced the couplers in the picture.

I took this pic a while back, but just now found where I stored it.

Granted, this exact coupler is O Scale, but I have owned three HO scale cars that used an exact, scaled down duplicate of this design. I saw a car with it on FleaBay recently too that had these.

I am pretty sure it is a prewar coupler. I can't see this being made much after WWII for some reason.

Any ideas?
Group: vintageHO Message: 13904 From: Wobbly913 Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler
What picture where are you referring to?

--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:

From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 7:08 PM



Group,

A while back, someone referenced the couplers in the picture.

I took this pic a while back, but just now found where I stored it.

Granted, this exact coupler is O Scale, but I have owned three HO scale cars that used an exact, scaled down duplicate of this design. I saw a car with it on FleaBay recently too that had these.

I am pretty sure it is a prewar coupler. I can't see this being made much after WWII for some reason.

Any ideas?



Group: vintageHO Message: 13905 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler
Attachments :
Ah, the one I forgot to attach apparently...

Aw, come on, this happens to pretty much everyone!

Trying this again here.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:

From: Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 4:28 PM

 

What picture where are you referring to?

--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 7:08 PM



Group,

A while back, someone referenced the couplers in the picture.

I took this pic a while back, but just now found where I stored it.

Granted, this exact coupler is O Scale, but I have owned three HO scale cars that used an exact, scaled down duplicate of this design. I saw a car with it on FleaBay recently too that had these.

I am pretty sure it is a prewar coupler. I can't see this being made much after WWII for some reason.

Any ideas?



  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13906 From: Garry Spear Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler [1 Attachment]
I have a couple of cars with this coupler.  I THINK it is a 1940s' Megow, may be even pre war.

Garry Spear

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
 
[Attachment(s) from Stephen Neubaum included below]

Ah, the one I forgot to attach apparently...

Aw, come on, this happens to pretty much everyone!

Trying this again here.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:

From: Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 4:28 PM

 

What picture where are you referring to?

--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 7:08 PM



Group,

A while back, someone referenced the couplers in the picture.

I took this pic a while back, but just now found where I stored it.

Granted, this exact coupler is O Scale, but I have owned three HO scale cars that used an exact, scaled down duplicate of this design. I saw a car with it on FleaBay recently too that had these.

I am pretty sure it is a prewar coupler. I can't see this being made much after WWII for some reason.

Any ideas?




Group: vintageHO Message: 13907 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler [1 Attachment]
I don't know what it is, but I also once got a couple cars with it on them.

I thought at the time they may even have been home-mode but I guess not.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Neubaum" <computersystemrebuild@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler [1 Attachment]


Ah, the one I forgot to attach apparently...

Aw, come on, this happens to pretty much everyone!

Trying this again here.

-Steve Neubaum
Group: vintageHO Message: 13908 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler
Don,

The owner of the hobby shop thought they were home made, as did I, until I saw these O scale couplers, and saw them on other cars online too.

I guess we have a real mystery on our hands! Does anyone know if Megow produced anything in O scale? If not, then we could probably rule out Megow. Remember that photo shows an O scale coupler, pulled off of a prewar Walthers O scale coach.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 6:13 PM

 

I don't know what it is, but I also once got a couple cars with it on them.

I thought at the time they may even have been home-mode but I guess not.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
Owner
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Neubaum" <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler [1 Attachment]

Ah, the one I forgot to attach apparently.. .

Aw, come on, this happens to pretty much everyone!

Trying this again here.

-Steve Neubaum

Group: vintageHO Message: 13909 From: Glenn476 Date: 4/21/2010
Subject: Re: Unknown Coupler [1 Attachment]

Hard to tell--is that the only picture you have of it?  gj
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler [1 Attachment]

Ah, the one I forgot to attach apparently...

Aw, come on, this happens to pretty much everyone!

Trying this again here.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Wed, 4/21/10, Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...> wrote:

From: Wobbly913 <wobbly913@...>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 4:28 PM

 

What picture where are you referring to?

--- On Tue, 4/20/10, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown Coupler
To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010, 7:08 PM



Group,

A while back, someone referenced the couplers in the picture.

I took this pic a while back, but just now found where I stored it.

Granted, this exact coupler is O Scale, but I have owned three HO scale cars that used an exact, scaled down duplicate of this design. I saw a car with it on FleaBay recently too that had these.

I am pretty sure it is a prewar coupler. I can't see this being made much after WWII for some reason.

Any ideas?



Group: vintageHO Message: 13910 From: David J. Starr Date: 4/23/2010
Subject: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
I got my E bay antique Pacific repaired and sort of running. It keeps
losing power (headlamp goes out) and stopping. Track is clean, modern
Athearn diesels run smoothly.
This model has all power pickup on the tender wheels, drivers are
pure plastic. The tender truck sideframes are insulated from each
other. Juice goes up a wire threaded done the center boss of each truck
and returns thru the tender Zamac frame and thru the sliding contact of
truck to frame. The four tender wheelsets are from a rubber band drive
locomotive, they have the big plastic bushings over the axles that gave
the rubber band something to grip.
I have polished the wheels both with a wire wheel in a dremel and
with googone on a rag. I polished the Zamac frame and the truck. I
squirted a little powdered graphite into the axle bearing.
Anyone know any good fixes to give more dependable power pickup?
Extra weight in the tender?


--
David J. Starr

Blog: http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 13911 From: jim heckard Date: 4/23/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
        The Athearn Pacific you describe would have been the first of three versions sold to the public. None were very good runners for various reasons and is why they were not on the market long . The rubber band type axles were the norm for all versions as Irv Athearn wasted nothing and since they are insulated between the wheels they fit the bill.  To many electrical connections to get power from the tender wheels to the engine motor especially the wires that clip into the tender going to the engine.
     I can't tell you if extra weight in the tender will help. Since I am more of a vintage collector then a person running them I don't do to much to improve what was known as a bad design. Good Luck.
 
                                                        Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 8:18 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore

 

I got my E bay antique Pacific repaired and sort of running. It keeps
losing power (headlamp goes out) and stopping. Track is clean, modern
Athearn diesels run smoothly.
This model has all power pickup on the tender wheels, drivers are
pure plastic. The tender truck sideframes are insulated from each
other. Juice goes up a wire threaded done the center boss of each truck
and returns thru the tender Zamac frame and thru the sliding contact of
truck to frame. The four tender wheelsets are from a rubber band drive
locomotive, they have the big plastic bushings over the axles that gave
the rubber band something to grip.
I have polished the wheels both with a wire wheel in a dremel and
with googone on a rag. I polished the Zamac frame and the truck. I
squirted a little powdered graphite into the axle bearing.
Anyone know any good fixes to give more dependable power pickup?
Extra weight in the tender?

--
David J. Starr

Blog: http://www.newsnort hwoods.blogspot. com

Group: vintageHO Message: 13912 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 4/23/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
To make your engine run better, check out the article in the Boston & Maine Historical Society about repowering the Athearn Pacific.  You will have to write to them to get the article, as it is in a previous newsletter.  It is a real good article and I would search for it if I were to rebuild one of mine.  The Historical society has a web site.
 
Brad Smith
Franklin, WI
Group: vintageHO Message: 13913 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/23/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
1.  Put some shims on the cover plate at each axle to remove the extreme slop in the bearings but still allow the axles to turn freely. 
2.  Lube the gears and axle bearings with a good plastic compatible grease and all bearings with a good plastic compatible oil including motor bearings and worm shaft bearings.
3.  Remove the tender top.  Disconnect the slip in brass eyelets.  Polish the eyelets on the wires and remove, polish and reinstall the brass clips where the eyelets on the wires slip into place.  Polish the tender frame where the eyelets slip into place.  Wet these connections with Rail-Zip.
4.  Remove the trucks and polish the bearing surfaces of both the trucks and the tender frame.  Wet these surfaces with Rail-Zip and re-assemble.

This should improve contact.  Some running may improve the operation.  I have one that runs smooth and well.  The bulb going out means that the little arm that conducts power to the bulb is losing contact with the corresponding area on the frame.  A little bending and polishing might help here also.

After re-assembling the tender, before connecting the wires and the loco, put the tender on a piece of track and by hand pushdown on the tender and move it back and forth a good number of times.  This will polish the bearing areas of the axles and trucks and give better contact. 

You have 50 years of non-use to overcome.  This was a cheap loco and a poor design.  These steps are the most help you can give to the stock item and this effort should show definite improvement.

Don Staton in VA.
=================================================

David J. Starr wrote:
 

I got my E bay antique Pacific repaired and sort of running. It keeps
losing power (headlamp goes out) and stopping. Track is clean, modern
Athearn diesels run smoothly.
This model has all power pickup on the tender wheels, drivers are
pure plastic. The tender truck sideframes are insulated from each
other. Juice goes up a wire threaded done the center boss of each truck
and returns thru the tender Zamac frame and thru the sliding contact of
truck to frame. The four tender wheelsets are from a rubber band drive
locomotive, they have the big plastic bushings over the axles that gave
the rubber band something to grip.
I have polished the wheels both with a wire wheel in a dremel and
with googone on a rag. I polished the Zamac frame and the truck. I
squirted a little powdered graphite into the axle bearing.
Anyone know any good fixes to give more dependable power pickup?
Extra weight in the tender?

--
David J. Starr

Blog: http://www.newsnort hwoods.blogspot. com

Group: vintageHO Message: 13914 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
I was fortunate enough to have come across all three versions of this locomotive, in various state of disrepair, at different train shows and swap meets in a relatively short period of time. Using the metal rimmed drivers from the final version, and the tender with pickup from the earlier versions, ( The final version had loco pickup only ), I have one complete loco with pickup from all wheels. That was the only way to get it to run somewhat reliably. What could maybe be done on yours, I do this with Mantua Pacifics sometimes... is find wheelsets that have metal wheels that are insulated on one side, that will fit the lead and trailing trucks. You can be creative and get pickup from them, and that may help. ( I'm sorry... I know the purists are cringing while reading this )





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Group: vintageHO Message: 13915 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
I personally haven't used them, but I know a lot of people swear by pickup
shoes like the ones GH sells.

Don


----- Original Message -----
From: <MRLENGAL2U@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore


I was fortunate enough to have come across all three versions of this
locomotive, in various state of disrepair, at different train shows and swap
meets in a relatively short period of time. Using the metal rimmed drivers
from the final version, and the tender with pickup from the earlier
versions, ( The final version had loco pickup only ), I have one complete
loco with pickup from all wheels. That was the only way to get it to run
somewhat reliably. What could maybe be done on yours, I do this with Mantua
Pacifics sometimes... is find wheelsets that have metal wheels that are
insulated on one side, that will fit the lead and trailing trucks. You can
be creative and get pickup from them, and that may help. ( I'm sorry... I
know the purists are cringing while reading this )








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Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully
Featured
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Group: vintageHO Message: 13916 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Pick-up shoes would solve the problem if they were installed on both the tender and the locomotive.  I have one loco set up that way and the slide shoes tend to keep themselves clean by friction.  They are well worth the effort and experimentation.

Don Staton in VA.
=================================================

Don Dellmann wrote:
 

I personally haven't used them, but I know a lot of people swear by pickup
shoes like the ones GH sells.

Don

----- Original Message -----
From: <MRLENGAL2U@aol. com>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore

I was fortunate enough to have come across all three versions of this
locomotive, in various state of disrepair, at different train shows and swap
meets in a relatively short period of time. Using the metal rimmed drivers
from the final version, and the tender with pickup from the earlier
versions, ( The final version had loco pickup only ), I have one complete
loco with pickup from all wheels. That was the only way to get it to run
somewhat reliably. What could maybe be done on yours, I do this with Mantua
Pacifics sometimes... is find wheelsets that have metal wheels that are
insulated on one side, that will fit the lead and trailing trucks. You can
be creative and get pickup from them, and that may help. ( I'm sorry... I
know the purists are cringing while reading this )

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Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully
Featured
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Group: vintageHO Message: 13917 From: David J. Starr Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Don Dellmann wrote:
> I personally haven't used them, but I know a lot of people swear by pickup
> shoes like the ones GH sells.
>
> Don
>
Actually sliding wiper pickups sound like a good idea. Who or what is
"GH"?
I could fabricate wipers from phosphor bronze sheet metal and secure
them to the plastic locomotive frame with 2-56 machine screws. Then
snake wires up to the motor brushes thru special holes drilled somewhere.

--
David J. Starr

Blog: http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 13918 From: David J. Starr Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
MRLENGAL2U@... wrote:
>
>
> I was fortunate enough to have come across all three versions of this
> locomotive, in various state of disrepair, at different train shows and
> swap meets in a relatively short period of time. Using the metal rimmed
> drivers from the final version, and the tender with pickup from the
> earlier versions, ( The final version had loco pickup only ), I have one
> complete loco with pickup from all wheels. That was the only way to get
> it to run somewhat reliably. What could maybe be done on yours, I do
> this with Mantua Pacifics sometimes... is find wheelsets that have metal
> wheels that are insulated on one side, that will fit the lead and
> trailing trucks. You can be creative and get pickup from them, and that
> may help. ( I'm sorry... I know the purists are cringing while reading
> this )
>
>
I'm not much of a purist. Kitbashing is fun. Last time I needed
drivers for the Mantua Pacific I was able to order them from Mantua.
That was a while ago, in fact quite a while ago. Who carries them now?
Yardbird?

--
David J. Starr

Blog: http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 13919 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
I made my own from brass.

Don Staton in VA
===============================================

David J. Starr wrote:
 

Don Dellmann wrote:
> I personally haven't used them, but I know a lot of people swear by pickup
> shoes like the ones GH sells.
>
> Don
>
Actually sliding wiper pickups sound like a good idea. Who or what is
"GH"?
I could fabricate wipers from phosphor bronze sheet metal and secure
them to the plastic locomotive frame with 2-56 machine screws. Then
snake wires up to the motor brushes thru special holes drilled somewhere.

--
David J. Starr

Blog: http://www.newsnort hwoods.blogspot. com

Group: vintageHO Message: 13920 From: Chris B Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Tomar shoes have been around a long time... I first saw them when I bought a hobbytown yard switcher drive with Cary s-2 body on ebay that had them....
Now I use them on diecast MEW 44 tonners and anything else that stalls. They're cheap and I think worth it. #804s at
Tomarindustries.com
Chris B.
From: "David J. Starr" <dstarrboston@...>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:41:13 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore

 

Don Dellmann wrote:

> I personally haven't used them, but I know a lot of people swear by pickup
> shoes like the ones GH sells.
>
> Don
>
Actually sliding wiper pickups sound like a good idea. Who or what is
"GH"?
I could fabricate wipers from phosphor bronze sheet metal and secure
them to the plastic locomotive frame with 2-56 machine screws. Then
snake wires up to the motor brushes thru special holes drilled somewhere.

--
David J. Starr

Blog: http://www.newsnort hwoods.blogspot. com

Group: vintageHO Message: 13921 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Starr" <dstarrboston@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore


> Don Dellmann wrote:
>> I personally haven't used them, but I know a lot of people swear by
>> pickup
>> shoes like the ones GH sells.
>>
>> Don
>>
> Actually sliding wiper pickups sound like a good idea. Who or what is
> "GH"?
> I could fabricate wipers from phosphor bronze sheet metal and secure
> them to the plastic locomotive frame with 2-56 machine screws. Then
> snake wires up to the motor brushes thru special holes drilled somewhere.
>
> --
> David J. Starr
>
> Blog: http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com

GH Products was the manufacturer. I'm not sure if they're still around but
Tomar has them now.

Don
Group: vintageHO Message: 13922 From: Chris B Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
Sorry, meant #805, 804s are for car lighting shoes.
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 20:20:19 +0000
To: Vint Ho<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore

 

Tomar shoes have been around a long time... I first saw them when I bought a hobbytown yard switcher drive with Cary s-2 body on ebay that had them....
Now I use them on diecast MEW 44 tonners and anything else that stalls. They're cheap and I think worth it. #804s at
Tomarindustries. com
Chris B.


From: "David J. Starr" <dstarrboston@ roadrunner. com>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:41:13 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore

 

Don Dellmann wrote:

> I personally haven't used them, but I know a lot of people swear by pickup
> shoes like the ones GH sells.
>
> Don
>
Actually sliding wiper pickups sound like a good idea. Who or what is
"GH"?
I could fabricate wipers from phosphor bronze sheet metal and secure
them to the plastic locomotive frame with 2-56 machine screws. Then
snake wires up to the motor brushes thru special holes drilled somewhere.

--
David J. Starr

Blog: http://www.newsnort hwoods.blogspot. com

Group: vintageHO Message: 13923 From: caroline Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: ebay listing
not sure if anyone is interested but i have listed a BRASS TRAIN MALLET 2-6-6-2T NWSL CROWN WILLAMETTE on ebay no 250618483017. i joined this group as my father died last year and left a small collection of ho brass trains. i have been trying to find out information about these from forums like this one. i have done a search and cant find many of this model for sale or sold . the last one on ebay went for $1050 but i understand that they are only worse what someone wants to pay at that time. Also as its been sat in the back of my dads wardrobe for many years as he never had it out on show or out for use i dont know how it works....
Group: vintageHO Message: 13924 From: Nelson B Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn 4-6-4 Pacific. Electric feed therefore
I'll add my own observations to Don's very good advice, because I picked one of these up at a train show late last year. Definitely check the tender truck bolster/frame contact area, because any dirt or oxidation will cause spotty pickup for the side that uses the tender frame as a conductor, which is a problem often encountered in Mantua steamers. Mine was fortunately in very clean condition, and the stock 8-wheel pickup is very reliable. Another issue is the dressing of the wires between the engine and tender, which are fairly stiff, and can cause the tender to rock to one side on turns, breaking contact with the trucks.

The motors in these engines aren't the strongest, but I also discovered that the worm, which is quite large in diameter, was rubbing the inside of the the leaf spring detail on the left side of the frame. There isn't much clearance one either side of the worm, and either the motor skews slightly to the left when tightened down, or the frame is a bit thicker on the left side. I disassembled it, and ground out some of the zamac on the back of the leaf spring, and now there's no interference.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Athearn/DSCF1824-1024x768.jpg

I also found that the rear bearing was caked with dirt, which was odd, since the engine was very well kept. It was enough to have scored the motor shaft, and the bearing must be enlarged, because it's noisy, but it runs much better since it was cleaned and lubed. Keeping the brushes & commutator free of oil is also necessary to keep the motor turning freely.

I'll have to look for a replacement rear end bell. If anyone has a spare motor or parts, let me know.

Nelson



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
>
> /1. Put some shims on the cover plate at each axle to remove the
> extreme slop in the bearings but still allow the axles to turn freely.
> 2. Lube the gears and axle bearings with a good plastic compatible
> grease and all bearings with a good plastic compatible oil including
> motor bearings and worm shaft bearings.
> 3. Remove the tender top. Disconnect the slip in brass eyelets.
> Polish the eyelets on the wires and remove, polish and reinstall the
> brass clips where the eyelets on the wires slip into place. Polish the
> tender frame where the eyelets slip into place. Wet these connections
> with Rail-Zip.
> 4. Remove the trucks and polish the bearing surfaces of both the trucks
> and the tender frame. Wet these surfaces with Rail-Zip and re-assemble.
>
> This should improve contact. Some running may improve the operation. I
> have one that runs smooth and well. The bulb going out means that the
> little arm that conducts power to the bulb is losing contact with the
> corresponding area on the frame. A little bending and polishing might
> help here also.
>
> After re-assembling the tender, before connecting the wires and the
> loco, put the tender on a piece of track and by hand pushdown on the
> tender and move it back and forth a good number of times. This will
> polish the bearing areas of the axles and trucks and give better contact.
>
> You have 50 years of non-use to overcome. This was a cheap loco and a
> poor design. These steps are the most help you can give to the stock
> item and this effort should show definite improvement.
>
> Don Staton in VA.
> =================================================
Group: vintageHO Message: 13925 From: MikeS Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
At York, got a deal on an HO item, BUT, know nothing about it. Don't know whether it is old or new. Let me describe it.

Obviously a European design switch 0-6-0. Die cast, THREE rail (not Marklin) looks sturdy. Has 2 traction tires. Cars are 4 wheel and a gondola has Western Germany on the bottom; one gondola with a load says "Electrotren" and shows Spain on bottom.

Track is 3-rail and has a black fibre board backing with silver rails. Nicely made.

What do I have? Most important I cannot find when it was made? Can you help?

Mike Spanier
Group: vintageHO Message: 13926 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Electrotren has been around for nearly 60 years. They make DC and AC trains.

> At York, got a deal on an HO item, BUT, know nothing about it. Don't know whether it is old or new. Let me describe it.
>
> Obviously a European design switch 0-6-0. Die cast, THREE rail (not Marklin) looks sturdy. Has 2 traction tires. Cars are 4 wheel and a gondola has Western Germany on the bottom; one gondola with a load says "Electrotren" and shows Spain on bottom.
>
> Track is 3-rail and has a black fibre board backing with silver rails. Nicely made.
>
> What do I have? Most important I cannot find when it was made? Can you help?
>
> Mike Spanier
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13927 From: tomvanhoy Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
If it says WG then it may be Trix. They used a 3 rail track on fiber so that 2 locos could run at the same time by changing the pick ups.Most imported after WWII I think. Hope that helps,
Tom Van Hoy

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Electrotren has been around for nearly 60 years. They make DC and AC trains.
>
> > At York, got a deal on an HO item, BUT, know nothing about it. Don't know whether it is old or new. Let me describe it.
> >
> > Obviously a European design switch 0-6-0. Die cast, THREE rail (not Marklin) looks sturdy. Has 2 traction tires. Cars are 4 wheel and a gondola has Western Germany on the bottom; one gondola with a load says "Electrotren" and shows Spain on bottom.
> >
> > Track is 3-rail and has a black fibre board backing with silver rails. Nicely made.
> >
> > What do I have? Most important I cannot find when it was made? Can you help?
> >
> > Mike Spanier
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13928 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 4/24/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
If not Marklin I would guess Trix.
Don Staton in VA.
====================================================

MikeS wrote:
 

At York, got a deal on an HO item, BUT, know nothing about it. Don't know whether it is old or new. Let me describe it.

Obviously a European design switch 0-6-0. Die cast, THREE rail (not Marklin) looks sturdy. Has 2 traction tires. Cars are 4 wheel and a gondola has Western Germany on the bottom; one gondola with a load says "Electrotren" and shows Spain on bottom.

Track is 3-rail and has a black fibre board backing with silver rails. Nicely made.

What do I have? Most important I cannot find when it was made? Can you help?

Mike Spanier

Group: vintageHO Message: 13929 From: Graeme Eldred Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
In message <hqvrtf+qpsq@...>, MikeS <hspanier@...> writes

>What do I have? Most important I cannot find when it was made? Can you help?

Mike, Electroten are (or were) a Spanish company, dating back to 1951.
Today, Electrotren are owned by the UK company Hornby.

There is a web site here :

http://www.electrotren.es/index.asp

Cannot help much with a detailed history - sorry.
--
Graeme Eldred, Scotland
TCA 04-57743
Group: vintageHO Message: 13930 From: MikeS Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Fellows - Thanks for help. We are getting there.

Two photos.....one on Home Page under New Photos. The album is
entitled Electrotren. After examining the track, on the reverse side, 2 pieces show a clearly visible Western Germany.

The engine is diecast and very heavy. If you ask me it could be Marklin but only a guess. Quite heavy. Two traction tires and red spokes on all 6 wheels. Nicely done. Two of the cars clearly say Western Germany (on the bottom). One that doesn't have identification on the sides. Says ICI and on top of the ICI it says

Salt Works Stafford
I C I

Being a track fan (Super O and FasTrack) I find this track most interesting. It is in very good shape. Would I run it with a small Marx transformer?

Mike Spanier


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Graeme Eldred <groups@...> wrote:
>
> In message <hqvrtf+qpsq@...>, MikeS <hspanier@...> writes
>
> >What do I have? Most important I cannot find when it was made? Can you help?
>
> Mike, Electroten are (or were) a Spanish company, dating back to 1951.
> Today, Electrotren are owned by the UK company Hornby.
>
> There is a web site here :
>
> http://www.electrotren.es/index.asp
>
> Cannot help much with a detailed history - sorry.
> --
> Graeme Eldred, Scotland
> TCA 04-57743
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13931 From: tom bell Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Having looked at the photos I'm fairly certain  the track is the later style "Trix Twin". The earlier type had a have a very thick cast solid Bakelite base. It's called Trix twin because the two outside rails where insulated so you could run two trains independently on the same track. The locos had pick-up shoes you could change from one side to the other. It had a very course wheel profile which needed wide gaps on the crossings.

Early stuff was 16v AC with a reverser in the loco, later it changed to normal DC. Very early stuff (pre-war)had a cast coupler  with a lift up loop, this then changed to a Hornby Dublo  "C" style, later still it changed to the European standard loop.

The ICI wagon sounds to be UK prototype. They made things for the German, UK and US markets that I know of. I've got a 0-4-0 switcher and a heavyweight observation coach by them somewhere, I'll try and dig them out.

On 25 April 2010 15:50, MikeS <hspanier@...> wrote:
 

Fellows - Thanks for help. We are getting there.

Two photos.....one on Home Page under New Photos. The album is
entitled Electrotren. After examining the track, on the reverse side, 2 pieces show a clearly visible Western Germany.

The engine is diecast and very heavy. If you ask me it could be Marklin but only a guess. Quite heavy. Two traction tires and red spokes on all 6 wheels. Nicely done. Two of the cars clearly say Western Germany (on the bottom). One that doesn't have identification on the sides. Says ICI and on top of the ICI it says

Salt Works Stafford
I C I

Being a track fan (Super O and FasTrack) I find this track most interesting. It is in very good shape. Would I run it with a small Marx transformer?

Mike Spanier

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Graeme Eldred <groups@...> wrote:
>
> In message <hqvrtf+qpsq@...>, MikeS <hspanier@...> writes


>
> >What do I have? Most important I cannot find when it was made? Can you help?
>
> Mike, Electroten are (or were) a Spanish company, dating back to 1951.
> Today, Electrotren are owned by the UK company Hornby.
>
> There is a web site here :
>
> http://www.electrotren.es/index.asp
>
> Cannot help much with a detailed history - sorry.
> --
> Graeme Eldred, Scotland
> TCA 04-57743
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13932 From: tomvanhoy Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Trix
After the discussion of Trix and Elec trains I realized I have a Trix transformer and a few pieces of track. If you are interested in it please let me know before it goes on Ebay tonite. Priced to sell.
Thanks,
Tom Van Hoy
Group: vintageHO Message: 13933 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Trix was also one of the pioneers in "command control" (not counting the
Lionel tube type system in the 1950's) in the mid 1970's (after "Astrack"
but before Hornby "Zero-one").

They had at that time two lines. The "Trix Twin: was 3 rail, and "Trix
International" 2 rail DC with finer wheels (still NEM pizza cutters).

FWIW, I found that both Trix and Marklin freight cars accepted Kadee
wheelsets making them fine runners on US standard track. (I had a brief
fling with continental prototype back around 1975-76).

Today the Trix name is used by Marklin for their line of 2 rail DC.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

Their "EMS" system allowed running up to four trains at once
----- Original Message -----
From: "tom bell" <tebeeb@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?


Having looked at the photos I'm fairly certain the track is the later style
"Trix Twin". The earlier type had a have a very thick cast
solid Bakelite base. It's called Trix twin because the two outside rails
where insulated so you could run two trains independently on the same track.
The locos had pick-up shoes you could change from one side to the other. It
had a very course wheel profile which needed wide gaps on the crossings.

Early stuff was 16v AC with a reverser in the loco, later it changed to
normal DC. Very early stuff (pre-war)had a cast coupler with a lift up
loop, this then changed to a Hornby Dublo "C" style, later still it changed
to the European standard loop.

The ICI wagon sounds to be UK prototype. They made things for the German, UK
and US markets that I know of. I've got a 0-4-0 switcher and a
heavyweight observation coach by them somewhere, I'll try and dig them out.

On 25 April 2010 15:50, MikeS <hspanier@...> wrote:
Group: vintageHO Message: 13934 From: MikeS Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
Thanks to all. Here is some more info I have received.

Mike Spanier
Chicago

"Mike - The track I believe from the photos is Trix, to be precise Trix Express, made from around 1952 until the early 60s. While basically the same track was made in Germany and the UK (but only from 1957 in the UK) both the markings and the side lever on the point make this the German-made variant. It was introduced alongside the Trix Express 12 DC system to replace the earlier bakelite based track that dated from 1935 and the start of Trix production. But the DC trains could run on the old track and the AC trains on the newer as wheel standards remained the same. The track was in fact double two-rail as all three rails are insulated from each other. The idea being you could run two trains on one track, each using one outer rail and the centre rail to give two electrical circuits. (Hence the UK brand name Trix Twin). German Trix in the 60s also offered a 2-rail 12 V DC system – Trix International - with finer wheel standards (more or less NMRA HO) in general items we available in versions either for Express or International. Trix also introduced plastic based track in both two rail and three rail, the latter replacing the fibre-based system, though there was a few years overlap. At vintage train shows in the UK there are usually one or two Trix layouts using this type of track, or when it it's a Trix Twin Collectors Association do a lot more! .


One other no doubt nerdish bit of information is that the basic geometry of this track was copied from that of the first Bing Table Railway, with some refinements (you have shown one in the photo in that the points had a 30o curve but with a removable section of about 6o to allow for narrower double track spacing when required).

Given the track and that one of the wagons you mention would seem to have British markings (ICI = Imperial Chemical Industries) I would not be surprised if the rest of the items are Trix, they certainly used diecast bodies for some locos. One good indicator would be the loco pick ups. If it has adjustable running rail spoon pickups as well as the centre rail pick up it probably is Trix. If Märklin it will have a larger centre skate pick up and no running rail pick ups. If Trix the loco is most likely 12 DC with that track so only run with a transformer rectifier. Send us a photo if you can.

There is quite a bit of information on the web about Trix, which a quick Google on Trix Twin and Trix Express shoild reveal, but happy to send more if you need it.

All the best, Tony"


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
>
> Trix was also one of the pioneers in "command control" (not counting the
> Lionel tube type system in the 1950's) in the mid 1970's (after "Astrack"
> but before Hornby "Zero-one").
>
> They had at that time two lines. The "Trix Twin: was 3 rail, and "Trix
> International" 2 rail DC with finer wheels (still NEM pizza cutters).
>
> FWIW, I found that both Trix and Marklin freight cars accepted Kadee
> wheelsets making them fine runners on US standard track. (I had a brief
> fling with continental prototype back around 1975-76).
>
> Today the Trix name is used by Marklin for their line of 2 rail DC.
>
> Don
>
> Don Dellmann
> don.dellmann@...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
> Owner
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
>
> Their "EMS" system allowed running up to four trains at once
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tom bell" <tebeeb@...>
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Electrotran 3 Rail HO?
>
>
> Having looked at the photos I'm fairly certain the track is the later style
> "Trix Twin". The earlier type had a have a very thick cast
> solid Bakelite base. It's called Trix twin because the two outside rails
> where insulated so you could run two trains independently on the same track.
> The locos had pick-up shoes you could change from one side to the other. It
> had a very course wheel profile which needed wide gaps on the crossings.
>
> Early stuff was 16v AC with a reverser in the loco, later it changed to
> normal DC. Very early stuff (pre-war)had a cast coupler with a lift up
> loop, this then changed to a Hornby Dublo "C" style, later still it changed
> to the European standard loop.
>
> The ICI wagon sounds to be UK prototype. They made things for the German, UK
> and US markets that I know of. I've got a 0-4-0 switcher and a
> heavyweight observation coach by them somewhere, I'll try and dig them out.
>
> On 25 April 2010 15:50, MikeS <hspanier@...> wrote:
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13935 From: MikeS Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Trix
Tom - Yes, interested. Please send email to: hspanier@...

Thanks, Mike Spanier (cell 708 845 0937)

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tomvanhoy" <tomvanhoy@...> wrote:
>
> After the discussion of Trix and Elec trains I realized I have a Trix transformer and a few pieces of track. If you are interested in it please let me know before it goes on Ebay tonite. Priced to sell.
> Thanks,
> Tom Van Hoy
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13936 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/25/2010
Subject: Re: Trix Twin - UK
Hi All,

Trix-Twin of the UK was imported and promoted by Polk's in the post WW2 period and their ads featured two US type sets, incorporating an PRR A-5 style switcher, the freight set with sloped back tender and the passenger set with a rectangular tender. They have an excellent worldwide club with an informative website:
http://www.ttrca.co.uk/

Around 1950, Trix Twin made as special two rail DC kit version of the A-A-5 style switcher for sale in the US and Polk's heavily advertised these at that time, later at closeout prices, so a vintage collector might come across one as I did, apart and tossed into a cigar box (along with a mint unpainted late 1940's Varney Docksider with original sales receipt). It took me a while to figure out just what I had.

The diecasting is very well done and high quality. The only rub is that the model is to British HO standards, a 4mm scale body running on standard 3.5 mm track. Think of a John English Yardbird on steriods! The smooth running motor is a three pole flat pancake type with adjustable brushes (knurled knobs on one side above the drivers). Mine was missing only a few tiny parts and a pilot casting, and the Trix-Twin members were very helpful in finding me spares outside of the club storehouse(members only) for my restoraton.

Interestingly, the Trix Twin line was an influence on Alexandro Rossi, founder of Rivarossi, as he stated in an interview that he first copied the Trix Twin Motor for his 2 rail DC Models, and in fact made his first B&O Docksider to British OO/HO standards. Brothers Polk were instrumental in distributing that oversize Docksider in the US as well, so in my mind and Vintage HO collection, botk the Trix Twin 2 rail DC PRR A-5 and Rivarossi Docksider have a legit presence.

Polk's also later imorted another Trix-Twin item, the diecast operating dump car, sold as an Aristo Craft item, but also with the Trix Twin logo on the box.

Lastly on the subject (but also a bit O.T. Don), Trix Twin HO was an influence on AC Gilbert and co., as some of ther pre WW-2 catalog artwork seems to mimic the graphic style of Trix Twin's, as well as a later AF station seemes to be a copy of the modular T-T Manyways station, I believ I mentioned a year or so ago.

A facinating line that I know I would be collecting and running if I were in the UK!

W Jay W.


--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "MikeS" <hspanier@...> wrote:
>
> Tom - Yes, interested. Please send email to: hspanier@...
>
> Thanks, Mike Spanier (cell 708 845 0937)
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "tomvanhoy" <tomvanhoy@> wrote:
> >
> > After the discussion of Trix and Elec trains I realized I have a Trix transformer and a few pieces of track. If you are interested in it please let me know before it goes on Ebay tonite. Priced to sell.
> > Thanks,
> > Tom Van Hoy
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13937 From: al45390 Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Varney V-2
Is this e-Bay listing, 300421415680, what it says it is?
Walter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13938 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Varney Motor on eBay
Walter,
 
      The motor you ask about on eBay is a Varney V-4 motor. The motor was designed exclusively for the " De-Luxe"  Varney  F-3 diesel locomotives.
 
   First picture will show you the Varney V1, V-2, V-3 and V-4 type motors and the second picture will show a close up of the V-4 motor. I think you should be able to read the description aside the picture. Hope this answers your question.
 
                                        Jim H
 
                                                
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13939 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Motor on eBay [2 Attachments]
Thanks, Jim.

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:55 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
 
[Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]

Walter,
 
      The motor you ask about on eBay is a Varney V-4 motor. The motor was designed exclusively for the " De-Luxe"  Varney  F-3 diesel locomotives.
 
   First picture will show you the Varney V1, V-2, V-3 and V-4 type motors and the second picture will show a close up of the V-4 motor. I think you should be able to read the description aside the picture. Hope this answers your question.
 
                                        Jim H
 
                                                



--
Regards,
Walter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13940 From: Chris B Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Motor on eBay [2 Attachments]
Jim, check out the other items by the same seller, several early cast diesels.
Chris B.
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 12:55:15 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Motor on eBay [2 Attachments]

 

Walter,
 
      The motor you ask about on eBay is a Varney V-4 motor. The motor was designed exclusively for the " De-Luxe"  Varney  F-3 diesel locomotives.
 
   First picture will show you the Varney V1, V-2, V-3 and V-4 type motors and the second picture will show a close up of the V-4 motor. I think you should be able to read the description aside the picture. Hope this answers your question.
 
                                        Jim H
 
                                                
Group: vintageHO Message: 13941 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Motor on eBay
Hi Chris,
 
     Mr Hobbytown has some interesting things in his list. The cast brass items with the HM inside is Harris - Matucci ( hope I spelled it right as to lazy to go to the basement to check. Could be spelled Mateucci ). They were from Philadelphia and from what I have found out so far the only item they made.  I'm lucky to have a powered A unit and a dummy B.
 
   Another interesting item is the J S Cambron set. Hard to find much info about them as to what they are made of. Cast brass or cast Aluminum or both. ( Some even say die cast only ). Even discussion saying A unit only. I happen to have a PA-1 and PB-1 that are a cast brass alloy. Everything I know about them there were bodies only.
 
  Anyone have additions and / or corrections ?
 
                                     Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
To: Vint Ho
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Motor on eBay

 

Jim, check out the other items by the same seller, several early cast diesels.
Chris B.


From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 12:55:15 -0400
Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Motor on eBay [2 Attachments]

 

Walter,
 
      The motor you ask about on eBay is a Varney V-4 motor. The motor was designed exclusively for the " De-Luxe"  Varney  F-3 diesel locomotives.
 
   First picture will show you the Varney V1, V-2, V-3 and V-4 type motors and the second picture will show a close up of the V-4 motor. I think you should be able to read the description aside the picture. Hope this answers your question.
 
                                        Jim H
 
                                                

Group: vintageHO Message: 13942 From: Chris B Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: Varney Motor on eBay
Thanks Jim. Anb you tell us anything about the DMC unit especially the visible motor and drive train?
Chris B
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:20:42 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Motor on eBay

 

Hi Chris,
 
     Mr Hobbytown has some interesting things in his list. The cast brass items with the HM inside is Harris - Matucci ( hope I spelled it right as to lazy to go to the basement to check. Could be spelled Mateucci ). They were from Philadelphia and from what I have found out so far the only item they made.  I'm lucky to have a powered A unit and a dummy B.
 
   Another interesting item is the J S Cambron set. Hard to find much info about them as to what they are made of. Cast brass or cast Aluminum or both. ( Some even say die cast only ). Even discussion saying A unit only. I happen to have a PA-1 and PB-1 that are a cast brass alloy. Everything I know about them there were bodies only.
 
  Anyone have additions and / or corrections ?
 
                                     Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
To: Vint Ho
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Motor on eBay

 

Jim, check out the other items by the same seller, several early cast diesels.
Chris B.


From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 12:55:15 -0400
Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Motor on eBay [2 Attachments]

 

Walter,
 
      The motor you ask about on eBay is a Varney V-4 motor. The motor was designed exclusively for the " De-Luxe"  Varney  F-3 diesel locomotives.
 
   First picture will show you the Varney V1, V-2, V-3 and V-4 type motors and the second picture will show a close up of the V-4 motor. I think you should be able to read the description aside the picture. Hope this answers your question.
 
                                        Jim H
 
                                                

Group: vintageHO Message: 13943 From: rcjge Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: another Varney NOT! on ebay
Could be a neophyte mistake but I think; Varney power trucks, but somebody else's shell?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260592200578&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

Anyone know who made the shell?

-Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13944 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: another Varney NOT! on ebay
Barr-Nixon shell?





Come visit my PRR Pages:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
Group: vintageHO Message: 13945 From: rcjge Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Another Ebay oddity? Hobbytown Shark
Can someone sort me out about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130385940544&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

I know of a Hobbytown FA or Shark chassis by Hobbytown (kit #?) but I remember the shark shell was supposed to come from Mantua. Anybody? I have a real nice Mantua RF-16 Shark A/B set, but the thing about this shark listing is he says it's a "unit" body. by that I assume he means no chassis like many of the Tyco diesels.

Someone chine in here?

Thanks,
Gareth
Group: vintageHO Message: 13946 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: DMC item on eBay
Chris,
 
        Just to make sure we are talking about the same DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) item on eBay.   No. 300421429731  DMC cast brass & etched B unit. Remember what I write now is only about the DMC  "E" unit and not their FT's.
 
    Want to write a little disclaimer here as I can't be 100% sure of all the info that others have shared with me. Much has been gleaned from other HO collectors who are not members of this vintage HO group. Also there does not seem to be much paper about these. Have never seen a catalog for DMC. There is some paperwork in HOseeker in the Literature section and some pictures in the Gallery section from my collection. Due to what must be smaller runs and not much selling / trading / buying of the items limits information. With this being said I will try to explain what I can about the above eBay item.
 
   Lets start with things I am 99% sure of. There were two versions of this DMC E unit engine. The first version, both A & B, had pre printed paper sides ( for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ) . The second version had embossed or raised detail metal sides (again for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ). There is a name for this process and what exact material they were made from but can't find it right now. The item on eBay has this type of sides so I feel safe to say the second version.
 
   The other thing I am sure of is Adams & Son Foundry ( A&S ) did the casting for DMC. Their name is cast into the Aluminum roof underneath. There is much conjecture that A&S had a lot more to do with DMC then just supplying castings. ( A lot of this has been discussed before ).
 
    Lets move on to the eBay item. It states B unit in the write up but I see a cast brass/bronze nose in picture two. While a little dark it sure looks like the DMC nose you get in the kit for an A unit. Minor point.
 
    The broken side frame. It looks like a cast metal to me .I have never seen cast metal sideframes on the E units. They were always cast brass/bronze. That doesn't mean there were none that were cast metal. ( The FT's had cast metal side frames)
 
    The motor and drive.  I see a variable pulley ( 3 speed ) in the picture. Again not normal to me. ( If you want to see the two drives I have seen go to Hoseeker. Go into DMC Literature for paperwork for the single drive style. Read the pages of assembly instructions and view all the drawings concerning the E unit engine. Notice the single drive set up with flywheel for the E  is exactly the same set up as the drawing for the FT drive. Then go into the Gallery section and under DMC you will find a picture of the other dual drive.)  Can I say definitely what is shown on eBay is wrong. No.   
 
  So you be the judge. I am not saying the seller is wrong but my limited knowledge has to question certain things. I try to keep an open mind about things in vintage HO especially with mostly unknowns and very limited information. I would be glad to hear from others if they have more concrete information. 
 
 Hey Chris. How's this for a short answer to your question ?
 
                            Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13947 From: jim heckard Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: another Varney NOT! on ebay
    You would be right saying Barr - Nixon but later this brass engine body design was acquired and sold by Sampson.
 
                                        Jim H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] another Varney NOT! on ebay

 

Barr-Nixon shell?

Come visit my PRR Pages:

http://www.angelfir e.com/film/ prrpics/PRR- pages.html

Group: vintageHO Message: 13948 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: Another Ebay oddity? Hobbytown Shark
----- Original Message -----
From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 4:35 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Another Ebay oddity? Hobbytown Shark


> Can someone sort me out about this?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130385940544&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
>
> I know of a Hobbytown FA or Shark chassis by Hobbytown (kit #?) but I
> remember the shark shell was supposed to come from Mantua. Anybody? I have
> a real nice Mantua RF-16 Shark A/B set, but the thing about this shark
> listing is he says it's a "unit" body. by that I assume he means no
> chassis like many of the Tyco diesels.
>
> Someone chine in here?
>
> Thanks,
> Gareth

In the 60's Hobbytown DID sell a shark, but they stated right in the ad that
the shell was Mantua. If I can find a copy I'll scan it.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
Group: vintageHO Message: 13949 From: Chris B Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
Jim thanks! That's just the type of short answer that justifies all the big bucks we pay for this group AND for acess to HOSeeker!!

Seriously, that does fill in some blanks for me,

as I really do seem to be stuck on these early cast brass diesel monsters!

I'm not a complete purist, and I am a big fan of the hobbytown setups with the monster pittman, dc 70 or 90, whichever is the big one,

I'd love to see one of these adams e unit shells with an o gauge style two motor setup,

With 2 of those big pittmans, each one on a hobbytown e unit s truck,
Each truck with its own motor, hobbytown gear tower, and six wheel truck,
With all wheels replaced with Athearn sintered iron wheels for maximum traction and spectacular sparking!

Tractor pull style weighted sled contest anyone!!!??!!

Chris B
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:56:14 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] DMC item on eBay

 

Chris,
 
        Just to make sure we are talking about the same DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) item on eBay.   No. 300421429731  DMC cast brass & etched B unit. Remember what I write now is only about the DMC  "E" unit and not their FT's.
 
    Want to write a little disclaimer here as I can't be 100% sure of all the info that others have shared with me. Much has been gleaned from other HO collectors who are not members of this vintage HO group. Also there does not seem to be much paper about these. Have never seen a catalog for DMC. There is some paperwork in HOseeker in the Literature section and some pictures in the Gallery section from my collection. Due to what must be smaller runs and not much selling / trading / buying of the items limits information. With this being said I will try to explain what I can about the above eBay item.
 
   Lets start with things I am 99% sure of. There were two versions of this DMC E unit engine. The first version, both A & B, had pre printed paper sides ( for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ) . The second version had embossed or raised detail metal sides (again for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ). There is a name for this process and what exact material they were made from but can't find it right now. The item on eBay has this type of sides so I feel safe to say the second version.
 
   The other thing I am sure of is Adams & Son Foundry ( A&S ) did the casting for DMC. Their name is cast into the Aluminum roof underneath. There is much conjecture that A&S had a lot more to do with DMC then just supplying castings. ( A lot of this has been discussed before ).
 
    Lets move on to the eBay item. It states B unit in the write up but I see a cast brass/bronze nose in picture two. While a little dark it sure looks like the DMC nose you get in the kit for an A unit. Minor point.
 
    The broken side frame. It looks like a cast metal to me .I have never seen cast metal sideframes on the E units. They were always cast brass/bronze. That doesn't mean there were none that were cast metal. ( The FT's had cast metal side frames)
 
    The motor and drive.  I see a variable pulley ( 3 speed ) in the picture. Again not normal to me. ( If you want to see the two drives I have seen go to Hoseeker. Go into DMC Literature for paperwork for the single drive style. Read the pages of assembly instructions and view all the drawings concerning the E unit engine. Notice the single drive set up with flywheel for the E  is exactly the same set up as the drawing for the FT drive. Then go into the Gallery section and under DMC you will find a picture of the other dual drive.)  Can I say definitely what is shown on eBay is wrong. No.   
 
  So you be the judge. I am not saying the seller is wrong but my limited knowledge has to question certain things. I try to keep an open mind about things in vintage HO especially with mostly unknowns and very limited information. I would be glad to hear from others if they have more concrete information. 
 
 Hey Chris. How's this for a short answer to your question ?
 
                            Jim H
Group: vintageHO Message: 13950 From: Chris B Date: 4/26/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
Just to be crystal clear, I'm am continually impressed with how much information is available
just for the asking from group members
and just for the clicking from HOSeeker.  

I do research non-vintage HO subjects for modeling purposes, and believe it or not, for money at work,
but it usually takes a good bit more effort and is definitely less pleasant
than the questions and answers shared here.

of all the groups I participate in online,
this one is the most casual,
but it also has the highest quality content to BS ratio.

thanks again,
Chris B>

From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
To: Vint Ho <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, April 26, 2010 10:14:30 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DMC item on eBay

 

Jim thanks! That's just the type of short answer that justifies all the big bucks we pay for this group AND for acess to HOSeeker!!

Seriously, that does fill in some blanks for me,

as I really do seem to be stuck on these early cast brass diesel monsters!

I'm not a complete purist, and I am a big fan of the hobbytown setups with the monster pittman, dc 70 or 90, whichever is the big one,

I'd love to see one of these adams e unit shells with an o gauge style two motor setup,

With 2 of those big pittmans, each one on a hobbytown e unit s truck,
Each truck with its own motor, hobbytown gear tower, and six wheel truck,
With all wheels replaced with Athearn sintered iron wheels for maximum traction and spectacular sparking!

Tractor pull style weighted sled contest anyone!!!??! !

Chris B


From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:56:14 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] DMC item on eBay

 

Chris,
 
        Just to make sure we are talking about the same DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) item on eBay.   No. 300421429731  DMC cast brass & etched B unit. Remember what I write now is only about the DMC  "E" unit and not their FT's.
 
    Want to write a little disclaimer here as I can't be 100% sure of all the info that others have shared with me. Much has been gleaned from other HO collectors who are not members of this vintage HO group. Also there does not seem to be much paper about these. Have never seen a catalog for DMC. There is some paperwork in HOseeker in the Literature section and some pictures in the Gallery section from my collection. Due to what must be smaller runs and not much selling / trading / buying of the items limits information. With this being said I will try to explain what I can about the above eBay item.
 
   Lets start with things I am 99% sure of. There were two versions of this DMC E unit engine. The first version, both A & B, had pre printed paper sides ( for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ) . The second version had embossed or raised detail metal sides (again for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ). There is a name for this process and what exact material they were made from but can't find it right now. The item on eBay has this type of sides so I feel safe to say the second version.
 
   The other thing I am sure of is Adams & Son Foundry ( A&S ) did the casting for DMC. Their name is cast into the Aluminum roof underneath. There is much conjecture that A&S had a lot more to do with DMC then just supplying castings. ( A lot of this has been discussed before ).
 
    Lets move on to the eBay item. It states B unit in the write up but I see a cast brass/bronze nose in picture two. While a little dark it sure looks like the DMC nose you get in the kit for an A unit. Minor point.
 
    The broken side frame. It looks like a cast metal to me .I have never seen cast metal sideframes on the E units. They were always cast brass/bronze. That doesn't mean there were none that were cast metal. ( The FT's had cast metal side frames)
 
    The motor and drive.  I see a variable pulley ( 3 speed ) in the picture. Again not normal to me. ( If you want to see the two drives I have seen go to Hoseeker. Go into DMC Literature for paperwork for the single drive style. Read the pages of assembly instructions and view all the drawings concerning the E unit engine. Notice the single drive set up with flywheel for the E  is exactly the same set up as the drawing for the FT drive. Then go into the Gallery section and under DMC you will find a picture of the other dual drive.)  Can I say definitely what is shown on eBay is wrong. No.   
 
  So you be the judge. I am not saying the seller is wrong but my limited knowledge has to question certain things. I try to keep an open mind about things in vintage HO especially with mostly unknowns and very limited information. I would be glad to hear from others if they have more concrete information. 
 
 Hey Chris. How's this for a short answer to your question ?
 
                            Jim H

Group: vintageHO Message: 13951 From: Robert Hoffman Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Athearn Hustler
Can anyone tell me about the Athearn Hustler that was sold in the 1960s? Was it a good engine? Did the rubberband drive create any problems?

Group: vintageHO Message: 13952 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
I can only tell you my experience with them back then: the brass wheels
got dirty quickly and required constant cleaning to run reliably. Also,
when the bands broke (which seemed to be often), you had to disassemble
the whole thing to replace them. It ran by itself, if you weren't after
scale speeds - it was fast - but it couldn't pull much more than itself
and a car or two (which might have been due to the resistance of the
crappy plastic wheels they were putting on the cars I bought back then).

Others might have had better luck. I replaced the rubber band drive with
an Ernst unit later on, and that seemed to help. But the brass wheels
are still a problem. To help the performance a little, I bought another
(dummy) and modified it to make a "cow & calf" version.
<http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_27.html>

Mike

Robert Hoffman wrote:
>
>
> Can anyone tell me about the Athearn Hustler that was sold in the 1960s?
> Was it a good engine? Did the rubberband drive create any problems?
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13953 From: Robert Hoffman Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Tyco 0-4-0 Shifter
Was the Tyco 0-4-0 Booster the same engine used in the 0-4-0 shifter? Also, how did the Shifter puff smoke? Is it a heating unit inside? Did it work very well? I heard many units stopped puffing smoke after moderate usage.

Group: vintageHO Message: 13954 From: The Danish Duke Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
I remember one of the modeling magazines had a story about taking two Hustler bodies and s[plicing them on an Athearn SW drive and making them into a boxcab switcher with pantographs as an electric locomotive.
Earl Poulsen
Vancouver, Washington

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
>
> I can only tell you my experience with them back then: the brass wheels
> got dirty quickly and required constant cleaning to run reliably. Also,
> when the bands broke (which seemed to be often), you had to disassemble
> the whole thing to replace them. It ran by itself, if you weren't after
> scale speeds - it was fast - but it couldn't pull much more than itself
> and a car or two (which might have been due to the resistance of the
> crappy plastic wheels they were putting on the cars I bought back then).
>
> Others might have had better luck. I replaced the rubber band drive with
> an Ernst unit later on, and that seemed to help. But the brass wheels
> are still a problem. To help the performance a little, I bought another
> (dummy) and modified it to make a "cow & calf" version.
> <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_27.html>
>
> Mike
>
> Robert Hoffman wrote:
> >
> >
> > Can anyone tell me about the Athearn Hustler that was sold in the 1960s?
> > Was it a good engine? Did the rubberband drive create any problems?
> >
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13955 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
My friend at the hobby shop made one of those spliced boxcab hustlers. He did a very good job of it too, but he didn't put pantographs on, instead going for a branchline or heavy industrial diesel.

His have sintered metal wheels, not brass, as did the two I had at one point before selling them off.

Probably like the F7s and Geeps, they had brass wheels at one point, but at another point had sintered metal.

-Steve Neubaum

--- On Tue, 4/27/10, The Danish Duke <shyguy_98665@...> wrote:

From: The Danish Duke <shyguy_98665@...>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Hustler
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 27, 2010, 9:10 AM

 

I remember one of the modeling magazines had a story about taking two Hustler bodies and s[plicing them on an Athearn SW drive and making them into a boxcab switcher with pantographs as an electric locomotive.
Earl Poulsen
Vancouver, Washington

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@ ...> wrote:
>
> I can only tell you my experience with them back then: the brass wheels
> got dirty quickly and required constant cleaning to run reliably. Also,
> when the bands broke (which seemed to be often), you had to disassemble
> the whole thing to replace them. It ran by itself, if you weren't after
> scale speeds - it was fast - but it couldn't pull much more than itself
> and a car or two (which might have been due to the resistance of the
> crappy plastic wheels they were putting on the cars I bought back then).
>
> Others might have had better luck. I replaced the rubber band drive with
> an Ernst unit later on, and that seemed to help. But the brass wheels
> are still a problem. To help the performance a little, I bought another
> (dummy) and modified it to make a "cow & calf" version.
> <http://public. fotki.com/ mikesloane/ model_railroad/ nvrr_122004_ 27.html>
>
> Mike
>
> Robert Hoffman wrote:
> >
> >
> > Can anyone tell me about the Athearn Hustler that was sold in the 1960s?
> > Was it a good engine? Did the rubberband drive create any problems?
> >
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13956 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Robert H., All.

The Athearn Hustler was the locomotive that pulled me awy from American Flyer tinplate S Scale and into HO when I received a small almost new set with three cars from a distant cousin circa 1960-1. This was the first version, mechanically. It ran well, and if a bit carefull, the jackrabbit starts could be temperer a bit with judicious throttle action and consist, but running at top speed around the circle of track on the carpet at 200 mph was fun for a kid, too.

There are many modelers still having fun with them, both versions, and adding Ernst mechanicals (on the later versions) and doing all sorts of inventive body and chassis modifications, see:

http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=980

North West Short Line even has/had a PDT underfloor power truck specifically for the Hustler, and I was lucky enough to spot a new one in an eBay junk lot. I also now have a Cary Boxcab conversion body kit and only have to find a nice condition Hustler to sacrifice for the lower frame portion and sideframes.

In the late 1950's and though the 1960's Paul Moore, Adrian, MI, had plans and sold kits to build various Gas Electric unit bodies called "Little Scoots" to fit on Hustler frames as well.

During the 1950's when Lionel introduced their HO scale models, they sold units manufactured by Athearn, then manufactured their own different version, the Husky, though I would not be slicing and splicing any of those! Marx also came out with their slightly different version, still made today by Model Power with an F-unit power truck underneath.

My well worn oricinal, half repainted into Erie colors and battle scarred is still around, though the motor lost magnistism long ago from too may ill-advised disassemblys back in the day! Found a n.o.s replacement a few yaers ago that does the honors occasionally in switching service today, and still brings me a grin when I nudge that throttle a bit too much at the start!

W Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hoffman <bobgrapes25@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me about the Athearn Hustler that was sold in the 1960s? Was it a good engine? Did the rubberband drive create any problems?
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13957 From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
At one time somebody- I dont know if it was Athearn or Lionel or someone else- made a Hustler that was powered by a propellor mounted on the roof.
Bill
Group: vintageHO Message: 13958 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
On Apr 27, 2010, at 1:00 PM, BillyDee53@... wrote:
>
> At one time somebody- I dont know if it was Athearn or Lionel or
> someone else- made a Hustler that was powered by a propellor
> mounted on the roof.
> Bill


I have one of those........

It was Atlas that made/sold those. It was a response to the then new
wave of slotcar modeling.

It was Cox and Lionel that had gear-drive Hustlers. Lionel also had a
center-cab Whitcomb/Vulcan body they sold on the same hustler
mechanism. I treasure one of those bodies I was able to get. I almost
got one that was complete, but missed it by just a couple of minutes.

The Turbo-Racer uses a standard Mark-One Hustler frame and Old-Style
wheel sets under a large can motor, with the two-piece plastic body
[main body and cockpit 'glass'] snapping onto the chassis along with
a very fat bladed nylon like rear prop pressed onto the shaft of the
motor.

It's completely fan-propelled with unpowered, idler axles. Sold in
early or mid 1960's.

Mine was a used unit I found about 1970 after it had been out of
production for a few years I soon had to update it with the newer
Mark-Two Hustler frame and wheels.

It came with the original type of Hustler chassis that had cast-in
cone axle-bearing surfaces, with pointed axles and brass wheels.
Those bearing surfaces had worn so that the 'bearing' surface had
ground up higher in the frames, dropping the side frames a bit, and
bogging down the free-rolling of the axles.

The replacement for me was the newer Hustler frame halves with the
new 'Mark-Two' bronze bushings and the rounded-corner end axles. That
also moved it into the sintered iron wheels.

It ran much better after the update.

When I ran it on club layouts, it would create a HUGE dust cloud the
first few times through a tunnel. It's surprising how much dust will
gather in a model tunnel after a few years.

I painted mine in black and used the orange tiger-stripe S.P. decals
on her lower edges. I had some old aircraft decals still around and
added a couple of emergency escape hatch decals and a couple of
beware of the propeller type of warning decals near the rear end. I
think I numbered her as X-10.

One prop blade is now weak at the base and may snap off. I plan to
use a nylon compatible super-glue to reinforce the base of the blades
and then get more operation out of her.

Best to ya'
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee Wi, USA
Group: vintageHO Message: 13959 From: jim heckard Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides
Hi W Jay W, Chris B and Others ,
 
    I wanted to pass along pictures of the near completed Dallas Model Craft first run E unit Dummy B with paper sides. This is the item many got together and bought for me. It only lacks getting the papersides back to install. They are out being reconditioned by a friend.
 
   I now have the first version paper sided A & B and the second version with  embossed metal sides A & B . Hopefully in the future I will find the DMC powered FT  "A" unit ( I have the dummy B ) and think I will have all engines DMC produced.
 
  I did find out one interesting fact pertaining to the ends of the E unit engines. I have found ends made of two different metals ( cast aluminum and cast copper? ). Also I have found 3 different styles pertaining to the door opening pattern. One type is a rectangle, the next is a rectangle shape rounded at the top and the last is a rectangle rounded at the top but having raised areas aide the length top to bottom of the pattern. Adams & Sons must have liked changing things around.
 
  While this last tidbit is minor it just goes to show there can be small differences even in a kind of limited run item. This small point is now a verified fact but shows how hard it can be to find these things out.
 
                                         Jim H
 
 
  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13960 From: Dick Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
I got a rubber band drive Hustler in 1958 as my first HO locomotive (& still have it). It wasn't quite as weak as some have said; it would pull 3 or 4 cars reliably. It was ridiculously fast of course. There was a MR article that claimed one went 400 scale mph. I could never get more than 200 from mine; I tried, but my longest straight was only 8 feet...
I tried to improve operation with a couple of slices of bar solder glued to the inside of the cab area. That helped traction a bit. The original rubber bands didn't last; I got a box of #8 rubber bands at an office supply. They fit just right. And the box had like 500 of them.
The biggest problem was that the chassis was rigid, not equalized at all. So most of the time it was only picking up power at 3 points; two on one side, only one on the other. If that one side hit a bit of dirt, it would stall. And you had to gun it through insulated frog switches. I cleaned the wheels regularly with the eraser end of a new pencil.
Eventually, my Hustler chassis ended powering a Paul Moore 4 wheel trolley car. I believe the trolley body kit had card sides, wood roof and metal ends. The trolley body got wrecked in a move, so the Hustler body went back on. Later the motor died so I fitted a NWSL PDT to it. That gave a nice speed range. Now it's on the shelf, waiting for a DCC decoder.

Dick Moessner

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hoffman <bobgrapes25@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me about the Athearn Hustler that was sold in the 1960s? Was it a good engine? Did the rubberband drive create any problems?
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13961 From: Don Dellmann Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
I did just the opposite once, making a center cab diesel on an SW chassis.
If I could find a couple Hustler shells cheap or free I'd do it again.

Don

Don Dellmann
don.dellmann@...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
Owner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

----- Original Message -----
From: "The Danish Duke" <shyguy_98665@...>
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:10 AM
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Hustler


>I remember one of the modeling magazines had a story about taking two
>Hustler bodies and s[plicing them on an Athearn SW drive and making them
>into a boxcab switcher with pantographs as an electric locomotive.
> Earl Poulsen
> Vancouver, Washington
>
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
>>
>> I can only tell you my experience with them back then: the brass wheels
>> got dirty quickly and required constant cleaning to run reliably. Also,
>> when the bands broke (which seemed to be often), you had to disassemble
>> the whole thing to replace them. It ran by itself, if you weren't after
>> scale speeds - it was fast - but it couldn't pull much more than itself
>> and a car or two (which might have been due to the resistance of the
>> crappy plastic wheels they were putting on the cars I bought back then).
>>
>> Others might have had better luck. I replaced the rubber band drive with
>> an Ernst unit later on, and that seemed to help. But the brass wheels
>> are still a problem. To help the performance a little, I bought another
>> (dummy) and modified it to make a "cow & calf" version.
>> <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_27.html>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Robert Hoffman wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Can anyone tell me about the Athearn Hustler that was sold in the
>> > 1960s?
>> > Was it a good engine? Did the rubberband drive create any problems?
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13962 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
Ah, they say great minds think alike. I did exactly the same thing with
two of my Athearn SW's (they were cheap enough back then, and spare
bodies were something like a buck.

I was only a kid, so the results weren't all that spectactular, but it
was a fun project:
<http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/model_railroad/nvrr_122004_20.html>

Mike

Don Dellmann wrote:
>
>
> I did just the opposite once, making a center cab diesel on an SW chassis.
> If I could find a couple Hustler shells cheap or free I'd do it again.
>
> Don
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13963 From: Chris B Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides [2 Attachments]
Nice work Jim,  when it's all done you'll have to share a photo of both pairs lined up as one stylish vintage ABBA!

I must have a real soft spot for the E units, especially four of them together.  My prototype W&OD line never had anything bigger than an Alco S-2, and all the rest of the roster closet are close fits for that roster,

but for some reason there's another tub in there with a full set of 8 NOS old heavy E shells (Hobbytown or Cary).
There's 4 B units, and 2 each of the E-6 and E-7/8 A units; and 8 hobbytown frames; 4 Hobbytown drives and enough Hobbytown trucks to get them all on the rails.  I don't have any multidrive parts, so far anyway, but eventually I'd like to get enough multidrive sets to make them all into AB pairs.  someday...

For the same reason, even though all the rest of the vintage brass in  the closet is picked for making into models of actual units on the W&OD roster,
there's a very tarnished set of four Hallmark E-8 units too, all acquired separately, but the seem to match.
Only the A units have frames, but over the years I've collected four pairs of NOS Samshonga (sic) brass E-unit drive trucks , so that's another someday.

There's no place on the layout with the large radius curves to run them, so they would all probably end up as unpainted metal shelf queens, but I just really like to see multiple HO metal E units, all linied up and ready to pull the brass off the rails.

Thanks again for sharing Jim, I bet you can't wait to get those paper sides installed!

Chris B   


From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 4:54:32 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides [2 Attachments]

 

Hi W Jay W, Chris B and Others ,
 
    I wanted to pass along pictures of the near completed Dallas Model Craft first run E unit Dummy B with paper sides. This is the item many got together and bought for me. It only lacks getting the papersides back to install. They are out being reconditioned by a friend.
 
   I now have the first version paper sided A & B and the second version with  embossed metal sides A & B . Hopefully in the future I will find the DMC powered FT  "A" unit ( I have the dummy B ) and think I will have all engines DMC produced.
 
  I did find out one interesting fact pertaining to the ends of the E unit engines. I have found ends made of two different metals ( cast aluminum and cast copper? ). Also I have found 3 different styles pertaining to the door opening pattern. One type is a rectangle, the next is a rectangle shape rounded at the top and the last is a rectangle rounded at the top but having raised areas aide the length top to bottom of the pattern. Adams & Sons must have liked changing things around.
 
  While this last tidbit is minor it just goes to show there can be small differences even in a kind of limited run item. This small point is now a verified fact but shows how hard it can be to find these things out.
 
                                         Jim H
 
 

Group: vintageHO Message: 13964 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
On Apr 27, 2010, at 5:33 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:

> I did just the opposite once, making a center cab diesel on an SW
> chassis.
> If I could find a couple Hustler shells cheap or free I'd do it again.
>
> Don

RTV and Alumilite ??

Can you properly nag me over next week when I should be setting up
the cutters ??? I'm using a week of vacation time to get it done. You
might like a different cab this time.

Best to ya'
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee Wi, USA
.........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The Danish Duke" ....
>
>> I remember one of the modeling magazines had a story about taking two
>> Hustler bodies and s[plicing them on an Athearn SW drive and
>> making them
>> into a boxcab switcher with pantographs as an electric locomotive.
>> Earl Poulsen
>> Vancouver, Washington
>>
>> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> I can only tell you my experience with them back then: the brass
>>> wheels
>>> got dirty quickly and required constant cleaning to run reliably.
>>> Also,
>>> when the bands broke ........
Group: vintageHO Message: 13965 From: herb1013 Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Athearn Hustler
all this talk about $1.00 body shells reminded me that you can still get them cheap at  www.modelpower.com   then click on clearance stuff in both h o and n   keep that link because they change the clearance items. i bought 4 A units last year for $6 each and 4 unpowered Bnits for $2 each.
herb
BIONIC HERB, BR 38, GODS KNOB,MILK CAN CORNERS
LIVE TO RETIRE RETIRE TO LIVE
www.angelfire.com/pa/bonniedellfarm
Group: vintageHO Message: 13966 From: John H Date: 4/27/2010
Subject: Re: Tyco 0-4-0 Shifter
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hoffman <bobgrapes25@...> wrote:
>
> Was the Tyco 0-4-0 Booster the same engine used in the 0-4-0 shifter? Also, how did the Shifter puff smoke? Is it a heating unit inside? Did it work very well? I heard many units stopped puffing smoke after moderate usage.
>
Tyco Shifter is a 0-4-0 tender locomotive while the Booster is a tenderless 0-4-0 T.

John Hagen
Group: vintageHO Message: 13967 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides
Hi Jim,

Looks great so far, and we all get a good measure of satisfaction in seeing this unit joining your collection and its mate. Due to the manufacturing process of casting from an original master, one may theorize A&S made changes possibly when suggestions were made or as they saw fit as they became more familiar with prototype design - as modifying a master was not nearly as difficult as it was for others later to change machine dies used to produced zamac or injection molder plastic models.

Jay

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Hi W Jay W, Chris B and Others ,
>
> I wanted to pass along pictures of the near completed Dallas Model Craft first run E unit Dummy B with paper sides. This is the item many got together and bought for me. It only lacks getting the papersides back to install. They are out being reconditioned by a friend.
>
> I now have the first version paper sided A & B and the second version with embossed metal sides A & B . Hopefully in the future I will find the DMC powered FT "A" unit ( I have the dummy B ) and think I will have all engines DMC produced.
>
> I did find out one interesting fact pertaining to the ends of the E unit engines. I have found ends made of two different metals ( cast aluminum and cast copper? ). Also I have found 3 different styles pertaining to the door opening pattern. One type is a rectangle, the next is a rectangle shape rounded at the top and the last is a rectangle rounded at the top but having raised areas aide the length top to bottom of the pattern. Adams & Sons must have liked changing things around.
>
> While this last tidbit is minor it just goes to show there can be small differences even in a kind of limited run item. This small point is now a verified fact but shows how hard it can be to find these things out.
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13968 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: America's Hobby Center
Bob, Any time that I visited AHC in New York back in those earlier days
(1960's & 1970's), in their 1-flight-up store, I got the same impression as
you of their being a mainly mail order place first -- as their ads would
suggest -- and their on-site retail business being second. Noticeably, if I
needed larger ticket items when at their store, I was treated with some regard,
but if I only happened to need a few smaller items at the time I was not
given very good service and would usually be made to wait a longer period that
other customers making larger buys.

Perhaps, the time their policy had started to change somewhat from being
mainly a mail order business was when this part of their sales began to shrink
almost 20 years ago. I'm estimating that it was probably around 16 years
ago (roughly, around 1994 or so) when AHC opened a retail store in River
Edge, NJ, one town over from where I live. They were there for about 8 years,
but sales were never stellar at that location, so they closed and moved their
NJ retail place to Park Ridge, NJ -- a town about 8 miles north of there --
where they stayed for about 5 or 6 years (I don't recall their still being
there as of 2008 or perhaps even as of the previous year). Can't really say
why they never made it big in the over-the-counter sales, but they never
seemed to have offered their walk-in customers the best of service in these NJ
outlets. Ray F.W. </HTML>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13969 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides [2 Attachments]
Hi Chris B.,

It seems many of us harbor that desire to have and run a hobbytown of Boston A-B-B-A E-6 lash up! Although my favored modeling roads DL&W or Erie/EL did not have those E-6's, my fallback railroad for modeling "orphan" locomotives is PRR, and they did operate those in A-B-B-A combinations. I reasoned a full compliment of four would look great pulling my string of American Beauty six stripe PRR full length cars, (but not on my small layout!).

Since then, by chance found many of the American Beauty cars including the unique chair car in GN Empire Builder colors and have nominally assigned one hobbytown DC-90 powered A-B set to that GN consist (but not tackled the complex locomotive paint job yet) and left the other DC-90 powered A-B set for the Pensy train.

By the time I fully restore and paint them, it is entirely possible that at least a matching E-6 A unit might be added to each, LOL!

W. Jay W.



--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> Nice work Jim, when it's all done you'll have to share a photo of both pairs lined up as one stylish vintage ABBA!
>
> I must have a real soft spot for the E units, especially four of them together. My prototype W&OD line never had anything bigger than an Alco S-2, and all the rest of the roster closet are close fits for that roster,
>
> but for some reason there's another tub in there with a full set of 8 NOS old heavy E shells (Hobbytown or Cary).
> There's 4 B units, and 2 each of the E-6 and E-7/8 A units; and 8 hobbytown frames; 4 Hobbytown drives and enough Hobbytown trucks to get them all on the rails. I don't have any multidrive parts, so far anyway, but eventually I'd like to get enough multidrive sets to make them all into AB pairs. someday...
>
> For the same reason, even though all the rest of the vintage brass in the closet is picked for making into models of actual units on the W&OD roster,
> there's a very tarnished set of four Hallmark E-8 units too, all acquired separately, but the seem to match.
> Only the A units have frames, but over the years I've collected four pairs of NOS Samshonga (sic) brass E-unit drive trucks , so that's another someday.
>
> There's no place on the layout with the large radius curves to run them, so they would all probably end up as unpainted metal shelf queens, but I just really like to see multiple HO metal E units, all linied up and ready to pull the brass off the rails.
>
> Thanks again for sharing Jim, I bet you can't wait to get those paper sides installed!
>
> Chris B
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 4:54:32 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides [2 Attachments]
>
>
> [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
> Hi W Jay W, Chris B and Others ,
>
> I wanted to pass along pictures
> of the near completed Dallas Model Craft first run E unit Dummy B with paper
> sides. This is the item many got together and bought for me. It only
> lacks getting the papersides back to install. They are out being reconditioned
> by a friend.
>
> I now have the first version
> paper sided A & B and the second version with embossed metal
> sides A & B . Hopefully in the future I
> will find the DMC powered FT "A" unit ( I have the dummy B ) and think I
> will have all engines DMC produced.
>
> I did find out one interesting fact
> pertaining to the ends of the E unit engines. I have found ends made of two
> different metals ( cast aluminum and cast copper? ). Also I have found 3
> different styles pertaining to the door opening pattern. One type is a
> rectangle, the next is a rectangle shape rounded at the top and the last is a
> rectangle rounded at the top but having raised areas aide the length top to
> bottom of the pattern. Adams & Sons must have liked changing things around.
>
> While this last tidbit is minor it just goes
> to show there can be small differences even in a kind of limited run item. This
> small point is now a verified fact but shows how hard it can be to find these
> things out.
>
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13970 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
Hi Chris B.,

The large motors were the DC-90 & 91, not sure of the difference between the model #'s though. Chapper of hobbytown even fitted them to F-unit chassis, as well. While I like my collection to reflect models powered with their original manufacturer's units where possible, I have no problem accepting other chassis like those early big motor hobbytown power chassis under brass shells by Cambron or H&M that were seemingly not sold with their own mfg chassis.

Especially when both were available during a comparatively narrow window of time and a modeler back them was likely to use the same combination. To me, an earlier Athearn PA chassis would be OK under a Cambron PA, as as modeler may have used that as well when they became available to power "those old shells" purchased at some closeout a decade earlier.

Currently, the only GARCO Baldwin switcher I have that runs was expertly machined to fit a much later and modified hobbytown switcher chassis - I might not have done it (nor had the skills), but it perfoms beautifully and who can argue with that?

To me, running the old units is a big part of the fun.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
>
> Jim thanks! That's just the type of short answer that justifies all the big bucks we pay for this group AND for acess to HOSeeker!!
>
> Seriously, that does fill in some blanks for me,
>
> as I really do seem to be stuck on these early cast brass diesel monsters!
>
> I'm not a complete purist, and I am a big fan of the hobbytown setups with the monster pittman, dc 70 or 90, whichever is the big one,
>
> I'd love to see one of these adams e unit shells with an o gauge style two motor setup,
>
> With 2 of those big pittmans, each one on a hobbytown e unit s truck,
> Each truck with its own motor, hobbytown gear tower, and six wheel truck,
> With all wheels replaced with Athearn sintered iron wheels for maximum traction and spectacular sparking!
>
> Tractor pull style weighted sled contest anyone!!!??!!
>
> Chris B
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:56:14
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] DMC item on eBay
>
> Chris,
>
> Just to make sure we are talking about the same DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) item on eBay. No. 300421429731 DMC cast brass & etched B unit. Remember what I write now is only about the DMC "E" unit and not their FT's.
>
> Want to write a little disclaimer here as I can't be 100% sure of all the info that others have shared with me. Much has been gleaned from other HO collectors who are not members of this vintage HO group. Also there does not seem to be much paper about these. Have never seen a catalog for DMC. There is some paperwork in HOseeker in the Literature section and some pictures in the Gallery section from my collection. Due to what must be smaller runs and not much selling / trading / buying of the items limits information. With this being said I will try to explain what I can about the above eBay item.
>
> Lets start with things I am 99% sure of. There were two versions of this DMC E unit engine. The first version, both A & B, had pre printed paper sides ( for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ) . The second version had embossed or raised detail metal sides (again for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ). There is a name for this process and what exact material they were made from but can't find it right now. The item on eBay has this type of sides so I feel safe to say the second version.
>
> The other thing I am sure of is Adams & Son Foundry ( A&S ) did the casting for DMC. Their name is cast into the Aluminum roof underneath. There is much conjecture that A&S had a lot more to do with DMC then just supplying castings. ( A lot of this has been discussed before ).
>
> Lets move on to the eBay item. It states B unit in the write up but I see a cast brass/bronze nose in picture two. While a little dark it sure looks like the DMC nose you get in the kit for an A unit. Minor point.
>
> The broken side frame. It looks like a cast metal to me .I have never seen cast metal sideframes on the E units. They were always cast brass/bronze. That doesn't mean there were none that were cast metal. ( The FT's had cast metal side frames)
>
> The motor and drive. I see a variable pulley ( 3 speed ) in the picture. Again not normal to me. ( If you want to see the two drives I have seen go to Hoseeker. Go into DMC Literature for paperwork for the single drive style. Read the pages of assembly instructions and view all the drawings concerning the E unit engine. Notice the single drive set up with flywheel for the E is exactly the same set up as the drawing for the FT drive. Then go into the Gallery section and under DMC you will find a picture of the other dual drive.) Can I say definitely what is shown on eBay is wrong. No.
>
> So you be the judge. I am not saying the seller is wrong but my limited knowledge has to question certain things. I try to keep an open mind about things in vintage HO especially with mostly unknowns and very limited information. I would be glad to hear from others if they have more concrete information.
>
> Hey Chris. How's this for a short answer to your question ?
>
> Jim H
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13971 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides
Hi W.Jay W., glad to hear I'm not the only one afflicted with chronic MVEU (Multiple Vintage E-Unititis) !

In my case, the C&O were the final owners of the W&OD, so my similar long range someday plan for these E unit lashups is the fine looking blue &maize paint scheme the C&O had on its E units.

They'd have to have made a wrong turn at Potomac yard in Alexandria to show up at Bluemont Jct., but it could have happened!??! Sur it could.
Chris B.
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:06:09 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides

 

Hi Chris B.,

It seems many of us harbor that desire to have and run a hobbytown of Boston A-B-B-A E-6 lash up! Although my favored modeling roads DL&W or Erie/EL did not have those E-6's, my fallback railroad for modeling "orphan" locomotives is PRR, and they did operate those in A-B-B-A combinations. I reasoned a full compliment of four would look great pulling my string of American Beauty six stripe PRR full length cars, (but not on my small layout!).

Since then, by chance found many of the American Beauty cars including the unique chair car in GN Empire Builder colors and have nominally assigned one hobbytown DC-90 powered A-B set to that GN consist (but not tackled the complex locomotive paint job yet) and left the other DC-90 powered A-B set for the Pensy train.

By the time I fully restore and paint them, it is entirely possible that at least a matching E-6 A unit might be added to each, LOL!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Nice work Jim, when it's all done you'll have to share a photo of both pairs lined up as one stylish vintage ABBA!
>
> I must have a real soft spot for the E units, especially four of them together. My prototype W&OD line never had anything bigger than an Alco S-2, and all the rest of the roster closet are close fits for that roster,
>
> but for some reason there's another tub in there with a full set of 8 NOS old heavy E shells (Hobbytown or Cary).
> There's 4 B units, and 2 each of the E-6 and E-7/8 A units; and 8 hobbytown frames; 4 Hobbytown drives and enough Hobbytown trucks to get them all on the rails. I don't have any multidrive parts, so far anyway, but eventually I'd like to get enough multidrive sets to make them all into AB pairs. someday...
>
> For the same reason, even though all the rest of the vintage brass in the closet is picked for making into models of actual units on the W&OD roster,
> there's a very tarnished set of four Hallmark E-8 units too, all acquired separately, but the seem to match.
> Only the A units have frames, but over the years I've collected four pairs of NOS Samshonga (sic) brass E-unit drive trucks , so that's another someday.
>
> There's no place on the layout with the large radius curves to run them, so they would all probably end up as unpainted metal shelf queens, but I just really like to see multiple HO metal E units, all linied up and ready to pull the brass off the rails.
>
> Thanks again for sharing Jim, I bet you can't wait to get those paper sides installed!
>
> Chris B
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@... >
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 4:54:32 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides [2 Attachments]
>
>
> [Attachment( s) from jim heckard included below]
> Hi W Jay W, Chris B and Others ,
>
> I wanted to pass along pictures
> of the near completed Dallas Model Craft first run E unit Dummy B with paper
> sides. This is the item many got together and bought for me. It only
> lacks getting the papersides back to install. They are out being reconditioned
> by a friend.
>
> I now have the first version
> paper sided A & B and the second version with embossed metal
> sides A & B . Hopefully in the future I
> will find the DMC powered FT "A" unit ( I have the dummy B ) and think I
> will have all engines DMC produced.
>
> I did find out one interesting fact
> pertaining to the ends of the E unit engines. I have found ends made of two
> different metals ( cast aluminum and cast copper? ). Also I have found 3
> different styles pertaining to the door opening pattern. One type is a
> rectangle, the next is a rectangle shape rounded at the top and the last is a
> rectangle rounded at the top but having raised areas aide the length top to
> bottom of the pattern. Adams & Sons must have liked changing things around.
>
> While this last tidbit is minor it just goes
> to show there can be small differences even in a kind of limited run item. This
> small point is now a verified fact but shows how hard it can be to find these
> things out.
>
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13972 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
I very much agree on logical vintage mods to orig drives.

Current trends in collecting vintage cars and hot rods permit the same type of non-orig but contemporary mods in several classes.

Somehow my closet also holds two cast brass olympic f unit chassis and drives, plus two what I think are US Globe cast F unit chassis of very similar design.
The brass olympicframes are loaded with extra attached weights, and KMT motors, but all 4 have the same early gear driven trucks and metal side frames.

At some point, ebay forced me at pricepoint to add four very heavy cast F unit shells carrying pretty nice PRR paint and roof antennas.
So if I ever get time to make those shells sit on the cast frames, I might have an especially weighty F unit ABBA consist.

Or....I do have some hobbytown f unit drive chassis...with at least one with that monster 90 or 91 motor...

And somewhere I picked up 4 hobbytown unpainted NOS B-unit and 2 A-unit shells...

Maybe someday after I retire I can not only setup a vintage PRR
Olympic & Globe F unit consist,

But how about a hobbytown multi drive with one DC 90 powering 4 or even 6 units??!

Talk really is cheap,
But dreams are too.

It could happen!
From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:34:42 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC item on eBay

 

Hi Chris B.,

The large motors were the DC-90 & 91, not sure of the difference between the model #'s though. Chapper of hobbytown even fitted them to F-unit chassis, as well. While I like my collection to reflect models powered with their original manufacturer' s units where possible, I have no problem accepting other chassis like those early big motor hobbytown power chassis under brass shells by Cambron or H&M that were seemingly not sold with their own mfg chassis.

Especially when both were available during a comparatively narrow window of time and a modeler back them was likely to use the same combination. To me, an earlier Athearn PA chassis would be OK under a Cambron PA, as as modeler may have used that as well when they became available to power "those old shells" purchased at some closeout a decade earlier.

Currently, the only GARCO Baldwin switcher I have that runs was expertly machined to fit a much later and modified hobbytown switcher chassis - I might not have done it (nor had the skills), but it perfoms beautifully and who can argue with that?

To me, running the old units is a big part of the fun.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Jim thanks! That's just the type of short answer that justifies all the big bucks we pay for this group AND for acess to HOSeeker!!
>
> Seriously, that does fill in some blanks for me,
>
> as I really do seem to be stuck on these early cast brass diesel monsters!
>
> I'm not a complete purist, and I am a big fan of the hobbytown setups with the monster pittman, dc 70 or 90, whichever is the big one,
>
> I'd love to see one of these adams e unit shells with an o gauge style two motor setup,
>
> With 2 of those big pittmans, each one on a hobbytown e unit s truck,
> Each truck with its own motor, hobbytown gear tower, and six wheel truck,
> With all wheels replaced with Athearn sintered iron wheels for maximum traction and spectacular sparking!
>
> Tractor pull style weighted sled contest anyone!!!??! !
>
> Chris B
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@... >
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:56:14
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] DMC item on eBay
>
> Chris,
>
> Just to make sure we are talking about the same DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) item on eBay. No. 300421429731 DMC cast brass & etched B unit. Remember what I write now is only about the DMC "E" unit and not their FT's.
>
> Want to write a little disclaimer here as I can't be 100% sure of all the info that others have shared with me. Much has been gleaned from other HO collectors who are not members of this vintage HO group. Also there does not seem to be much paper about these. Have never seen a catalog for DMC. There is some paperwork in HOseeker in the Literature section and some pictures in the Gallery section from my collection. Due to what must be smaller runs and not much selling / trading / buying of the items limits information. With this being said I will try to explain what I can about the above eBay item.
>
> Lets start with things I am 99% sure of. There were two versions of this DMC E unit engine. The first version, both A & B, had pre printed paper sides ( for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ) . The second version had embossed or raised detail metal sides (again for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ). There is a name for this process and what exact material they were made from but can't find it right now. The item on eBay has this type of sides so I feel safe to say the second version.
>
> The other thing I am sure of is Adams & Son Foundry ( A&S ) did the casting for DMC. Their name is cast into the Aluminum roof underneath. There is much conjecture that A&S had a lot more to do with DMC then just supplying castings. ( A lot of this has been discussed before ).
>
> Lets move on to the eBay item. It states B unit in the write up but I see a cast brass/bronze nose in picture two. While a little dark it sure looks like the DMC nose you get in the kit for an A unit. Minor point.
>
> The broken side frame. It looks like a cast metal to me .I have never seen cast metal sideframes on the E units. They were always cast brass/bronze. That doesn't mean there were none that were cast metal. ( The FT's had cast metal side frames)
>
> The motor and drive. I see a variable pulley ( 3 speed ) in the picture. Again not normal to me. ( If you want to see the two drives I have seen go to Hoseeker. Go into DMC Literature for paperwork for the single drive style. Read the pages of assembly instructions and view all the drawings concerning the E unit engine. Notice the single drive set up with flywheel for the E is exactly the same set up as the drawing for the FT drive. Then go into the Gallery section and under DMC you will find a picture of the other dual drive.) Can I say definitely what is shown on eBay is wrong. No.
>
> So you be the judge. I am not saying the seller is wrong but my limited knowledge has to question certain things. I try to keep an open mind about things in vintage HO especially with mostly unknowns and very limited information. I would be glad to hear from others if they have more concrete information.
>
> Hey Chris. How's this for a short answer to your question ?
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13973 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
OTOH, my Garco switcher is unmodified original, and runs, if only feebly.
I wish I could swap a vintage drive into it that wouldn't require any cutting, but so far, nothing that fits will pull the weight.

Jealous I am!
From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:52:46 +0000
To: Vint Ho<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DMC item on eBay

 

I very much agree on logical vintage mods to orig drives.

Current trends in collecting vintage cars and hot rods permit the same type of non-orig but contemporary mods in several classes.

Somehow my closet also holds two cast brass olympic f unit chassis and drives, plus two what I think are US Globe cast F unit chassis of very similar design.
The brass olympicframes are loaded with extra attached weights, and KMT motors, but all 4 have the same early gear driven trucks and metal side frames.

At some point, ebay forced me at pricepoint to add four very heavy cast F unit shells carrying pretty nice PRR paint and roof antennas.
So if I ever get time to make those shells sit on the cast frames, I might have an especially weighty F unit ABBA consist.

Or....I do have some hobbytown f unit drive chassis...with at least one with that monster 90 or 91 motor...

And somewhere I picked up 4 hobbytown unpainted NOS B-unit and 2 A-unit shells...

Maybe someday after I retire I can not only setup a vintage PRR
Olympic Globe F unit consist,

But how about a hobbytown multi drive with one DC 90 powering 4 or even 6 units??!

Talk really is cheap,
But dreams are too.

It could happen!


From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:34:42 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC item on eBay

 

Hi Chris B.,

The large motors were the DC-90 & 91, not sure of the difference between the model #'s though. Chapper of hobbytown even fitted them to F-unit chassis, as well. While I like my collection to reflect models powered with their original manufacturer' s units where possible, I have no problem accepting other chassis like those early big motor hobbytown power chassis under brass shells by Cambron or H&M that were seemingly not sold with their own mfg chassis.

Especially when both were available during a comparatively narrow window of time and a modeler back them was likely to use the same combination. To me, an earlier Athearn PA chassis would be OK under a Cambron PA, as as modeler may have used that as well when they became available to power "those old shells" purchased at some closeout a decade earlier.

Currently, the only GARCO Baldwin switcher I have that runs was expertly machined to fit a much later and modified hobbytown switcher chassis - I might not have done it (nor had the skills), but it perfoms beautifully and who can argue with that?

To me, running the old units is a big part of the fun.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Jim thanks! That's just the type of short answer that justifies all the big bucks we pay for this group AND for acess to HOSeeker!!
>
> Seriously, that does fill in some blanks for me,
>
> as I really do seem to be stuck on these early cast brass diesel monsters!
>
> I'm not a complete purist, and I am a big fan of the hobbytown setups with the monster pittman, dc 70 or 90, whichever is the big one,
>
> I'd love to see one of these adams e unit shells with an o gauge style two motor setup,
>
> With 2 of those big pittmans, each one on a hobbytown e unit s truck,
> Each truck with its own motor, hobbytown gear tower, and six wheel truck,
> With all wheels replaced with Athearn sintered iron wheels for maximum traction and spectacular sparking!
>
> Tractor pull style weighted sled contest anyone!!!??! !
>
> Chris B
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@... >
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:56:14
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] DMC item on eBay
>
> Chris,
>
> Just to make sure we are talking about the same DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) item on eBay. No. 300421429731 DMC cast brass & etched B unit. Remember what I write now is only about the DMC "E" unit and not their FT's.
>
> Want to write a little disclaimer here as I can't be 100% sure of all the info that others have shared with me. Much has been gleaned from other HO collectors who are not members of this vintage HO group. Also there does not seem to be much paper about these. Have never seen a catalog for DMC. There is some paperwork in HOseeker in the Literature section and some pictures in the Gallery section from my collection. Due to what must be smaller runs and not much selling / trading / buying of the items limits information. With this being said I will try to explain what I can about the above eBay item.
>
> Lets start with things I am 99% sure of. There were two versions of this DMC E unit engine. The first version, both A & B, had pre printed paper sides ( for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ) . The second version had embossed or raised detail metal sides (again for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ). There is a name for this process and what exact material they were made from but can't find it right now. The item on eBay has this type of sides so I feel safe to say the second version.
>
> The other thing I am sure of is Adams & Son Foundry ( A&S ) did the casting for DMC. Their name is cast into the Aluminum roof underneath. There is much conjecture that A&S had a lot more to do with DMC then just supplying castings. ( A lot of this has been discussed before ).
>
> Lets move on to the eBay item. It states B unit in the write up but I see a cast brass/bronze nose in picture two. While a little dark it sure looks like the DMC nose you get in the kit for an A unit. Minor point.
>
> The broken side frame. It looks like a cast metal to me .I have never seen cast metal sideframes on the E units. They were always cast brass/bronze. That doesn't mean there were none that were cast metal. ( The FT's had cast metal side frames)
>
> The motor and drive. I see a variable pulley ( 3 speed ) in the picture. Again not normal to me. ( If you want to see the two drives I have seen go to Hoseeker. Go into DMC Literature for paperwork for the single drive style. Read the pages of assembly instructions and view all the drawings concerning the E unit engine. Notice the single drive set up with flywheel for the E is exactly the same set up as the drawing for the FT drive. Then go into the Gallery section and under DMC you will find a picture of the other dual drive.) Can I say definitely what is shown on eBay is wrong. No.
>
> So you be the judge. I am not saying the seller is wrong but my limited knowledge has to question certain things. I try to keep an open mind about things in vintage HO especially with mostly unknowns and very limited information. I would be glad to hear from others if they have more concrete information.
>
> Hey Chris. How's this for a short answer to your question ?
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13974 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: DMC item on eBay
 Chris,
 
       FWIW.  I'm not sure what size motor is in your Garco engine but they did come 3 different ways originally. (Paper on hoseeker under Garco page 2 will show these ). First was a single drive DC-60 Pittman. Second was a single drive DC-71. Finally a dual drive using a DC-71 motor.
 
   You are right about the weight of the Garco engine but maybe using a bigger motor or dual drive will help without modifying it assuming it had the smaller DC-60 to start. Finding an original geared truck by Garco might be hard but think about the Lindsay geared truck in its place.
 
                       Jim H
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
To: Vint Ho
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DMC item on eBay

 

OTOH, my Garco switcher is unmodified original, and runs, if only feebly.
I wish I could swap a vintage drive into it that wouldn't require any cutting, but so far, nothing that fits will pull the weight.

Jealous I am!


From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:52:46 +0000
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DMC item on eBay

 

I very much agree on logical vintage mods to orig drives.

Current trends in collecting vintage cars and hot rods permit the same type of non-orig but contemporary mods in several classes.

Somehow my closet also holds two cast brass olympic f unit chassis and drives, plus two what I think are US Globe cast F unit chassis of very similar design.
The brass olympicframes are loaded with extra attached weights, and KMT motors, but all 4 have the same early gear driven trucks and metal side frames.

At some point, ebay forced me at pricepoint to add four very heavy cast F unit shells carrying pretty nice PRR paint and roof antennas.
So if I ever get time to make those shells sit on the cast frames, I might have an especially weighty F unit ABBA consist.

Or....I do have some hobbytown f unit drive chassis...with at least one with that monster 90 or 91 motor...

And somewhere I picked up 4 hobbytown unpainted NOS B-unit and 2 A-unit shells...

Maybe someday after I retire I can not only setup a vintage PRR
Olympic Globe F unit consist,

But how about a hobbytown multi drive with one DC 90 powering 4 or even 6 units??!

Talk really is cheap,
But dreams are too.

It could happen!


From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:34:42 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC item on eBay

 

Hi Chris B.,

The large motors were the DC-90 & 91, not sure of the difference between the model #'s though. Chapper of hobbytown even fitted them to F-unit chassis, as well. While I like my collection to reflect models powered with their original manufacturer' s units where possible, I have no problem accepting other chassis like those early big motor hobbytown power chassis under brass shells by Cambron or H&M that were seemingly not sold with their own mfg chassis.

Especially when both were available during a comparatively narrow window of time and a modeler back them was likely to use the same combination. To me, an earlier Athearn PA chassis would be OK under a Cambron PA, as as modeler may have used that as well when they became available to power "those old shells" purchased at some closeout a decade earlier.

Currently, the only GARCO Baldwin switcher I have that runs was expertly machined to fit a much later and modified hobbytown switcher chassis - I might not have done it (nor had the skills), but it perfoms beautifully and who can argue with that?

To me, running the old units is a big part of the fun.

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Jim thanks! That's just the type of short answer that justifies all the big bucks we pay for this group AND for acess to HOSeeker!!
>
> Seriously, that does fill in some blanks for me,
>
> as I really do seem to be stuck on these early cast brass diesel monsters!
>
> I'm not a complete purist, and I am a big fan of the hobbytown setups with the monster pittman, dc 70 or 90, whichever is the big one,
>
> I'd love to see one of these adams e unit shells with an o gauge style two motor setup,
>
> With 2 of those big pittmans, each one on a hobbytown e unit s truck,
> Each truck with its own motor, hobbytown gear tower, and six wheel truck,
> With all wheels replaced with Athearn sintered iron wheels for maximum traction and spectacular sparking!
>
> Tractor pull style weighted sled contest anyone!!!??! !
>
> Chris B
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@... >
> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:56:14
> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
> Subject: [vintageHO] DMC item on eBay
>
> Chris,
>
> Just to make sure we are talking about the same DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) item on eBay. No. 300421429731 DMC cast brass & etched B unit. Remember what I write now is only about the DMC "E" unit and not their FT's.
>
> Want to write a little disclaimer here as I can't be 100% sure of all the info that others have shared with me. Much has been gleaned from other HO collectors who are not members of this vintage HO group. Also there does not seem to be much paper about these. Have never seen a catalog for DMC. There is some paperwork in HOseeker in the Literature section and some pictures in the Gallery section from my collection. Due to what must be smaller runs and not much selling / trading / buying of the items limits information. With this being said I will try to explain what I can about the above eBay item.
>
> Lets start with things I am 99% sure of. There were two versions of this DMC E unit engine. The first version, both A & B, had pre printed paper sides ( for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ) . The second version had embossed or raised detail metal sides (again for the Santa Fe War Bonnet scheme ). There is a name for this process and what exact material they were made from but can't find it right now. The item on eBay has this type of sides so I feel safe to say the second version.
>
> The other thing I am sure of is Adams & Son Foundry ( A&S ) did the casting for DMC. Their name is cast into the Aluminum roof underneath. There is much conjecture that A&S had a lot more to do with DMC then just supplying castings. ( A lot of this has been discussed before ).
>
> Lets move on to the eBay item. It states B unit in the write up but I see a cast brass/bronze nose in picture two. While a little dark it sure looks like the DMC nose you get in the kit for an A unit. Minor point.
>
> The broken side frame. It looks like a cast metal to me .I have never seen cast metal sideframes on the E units. They were always cast brass/bronze. That doesn't mean there were none that were cast metal. ( The FT's had cast metal side frames)
>
> The motor and drive. I see a variable pulley ( 3 speed ) in the picture. Again not normal to me. ( If you want to see the two drives I have seen go to Hoseeker. Go into DMC Literature for paperwork for the single drive style. Read the pages of assembly instructions and view all the drawings concerning the E unit engine. Notice the single drive set up with flywheel for the E is exactly the same set up as the drawing for the FT drive. Then go into the Gallery section and under DMC you will find a picture of the other dual drive.) Can I say definitely what is shown on eBay is wrong. No.
>
> So you be the judge. I am not saying the seller is wrong but my limited knowledge has to question certain things. I try to keep an open mind about things in vintage HO especially with mostly unknowns and very limited information. I would be glad to hear from others if they have more concrete information.
>
> Hey Chris. How's this for a short answer to your question ?
>
> Jim H
>

Group: vintageHO Message: 13975 From: toytrain13 Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Red Ball Kit #62 paint scheme
Greetings- I have assembled a Red Ball Dairymen's League express reefer, but I'm uncertain of the correct paint scheme. The printed sides are white, with blue lettering. Reseaching online for the paint scheme for the rest of the car I see blue body (Sunshine models), black body (Lionel) and boxcar red body (I forget where). Can anyone offer some advice on what is correct, please? Thanks- Richard White
Group: vintageHO Message: 13976 From: jim heckard Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
      
       I just found some paper work for the Harris & Matteucci ( Correct spelling ) E-7 bodies that might be interesting to some along with the suggestions on how best to paint them.
 
   Harris & Matteucci   928 Fitzwater Street  Philadelphia, Pa  The company sold them as E-7's. A & B bodies only. Seems to be their only HO engines. " The material from which the casting is made is manganese bronze, a material that is very tough but easily worked and soldered to ".
 
  Suggestions for finishing your H&M castings. " Remember to hold paint best the surface should not be glass smooth. Using a strong solution of WASHING soda ( no idea exactly what. Baking soda maybe ) and hot water scrub the casting very carefully. Rinse well and then dip the casting in a strong vinegar solution. This will neutralize any remaining alkali. Remember paint will not adhere in  the presence of an alkali. Dry with clean cloth and avoid touching the casting with the hands ".
 
  Just thought this might be interesting to some.
 
  To W Jay W, Chris B,    Concerning powering J S Cambron bodies. I have powered my PA-1 and PB-1 using Athearn's PA drives with flywheels. I had to mill a lot out of the very thick bodies to get a press fit. I normally wouldn't use such a "modern" drive but was the easiest way to power both as the J S Cambron were sold as shells only.
 
                                                                      Jim H
 
  
 
                                                        
Group: vintageHO Message: 13977 From: Roger Aultman Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Red Ball Kit #62 paint scheme
I believe Mantua used to paint the ends and roof a medium green.  
Roger Aultman
 
----- Original Message -----
From: toytrain13
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:52 PM
Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball Kit #62 paint scheme

 

Greetings- I have assembled a Red Ball Dairymen's League express reefer, but I'm uncertain of the correct paint scheme. The printed sides are white, with blue lettering. Reseaching online for the paint scheme for the rest of the car I see blue body (Sunshine models), black body (Lionel) and boxcar red body (I forget where). Can anyone offer some advice on what is correct, please? Thanks- Richard White

Group: vintageHO Message: 13978 From: Chris B Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Jim, thanks, that paint prep guidance would apply to most cast shells as well.
As for PA power, I do have 1 hobbytown PA A-unit and 2 hobbytown PA drive chassis...

I always hoped to run into a B-unit shell, but now maybe I'll keep an eye out for JS Cambron shells...
Any reason to think a hobbytown PA drive chassis wouldn't fit?


As for my Garco switcher, it does run feebly, but it does run, and that's with the smaller motor and 8 wheel drive,

but what gives me more vintage HO grins than I'd get from improving performance,
Is seeing it run with the orig fabric insulated wire, and ancient looking, possibly original spring drive belt and rubber drive tubing.

When one of those old items fails, maybe that will be a good time to drop in a small block Lindsey! (G)

Chris b.
From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:54:11 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies

 

      
       I just found some paper work for the Harris & Matteucci ( Correct spelling ) E-7 bodies that might be interesting to some along with the suggestions on how best to paint them.
 
   Harris & Matteucci   928 Fitzwater Street  Philadelphia, Pa  The company sold them as E-7's. A & B bodies only. Seems to be their only HO engines. " The material from which the casting is made is manganese bronze, a material that is very tough but easily worked and soldered to ".
 
  Suggestions for finishing your H&M castings. " Remember to hold paint best the surface should not be glass smooth. Using a strong solution of WASHING soda ( no idea exactly what. Baking soda maybe ) and hot water scrub the casting very carefully. Rinse well and then dip the casting in a strong vinegar solution. This will neutralize any remaining alkali. Remember paint will not adhere in  the presence of an alkali. Dry with clean cloth and avoid touching the casting with the hands ".
 
  Just thought this might be interesting to some.
 
  To W Jay W, Chris B,    Concerning powering J S Cambron bodies. I have powered my PA-1 and PB-1 using Athearn's PA drives with flywheels. I had to mill a lot out of the very thick bodies to get a press fit. I normally wouldn't use such a "modern" drive but was the easiest way to power both as the J S Cambron were sold as shells only.
 
                                                                      Jim H
 
  
 
                                                        
Group: vintageHO Message: 13979 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Interesting instructions, Jim, and perhaps very useful for preping other brass and bronze models for painting with relative ease.
According to 'dictionary.com', "washing soda" is sodium carbonate, as distinguished from sodium bicarbonate. "Baking soda" is sodium bicarbonate. I'm not a chemist, but I think the carbonate of soda is more alkaline than the bicarbonate of soda, so it washes things better. Don't recall having seen washing soda offered for sale recently [like the past 30 years], but I can't say I've looked for it either.
Walter

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:54 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
 

      
       I just found some paper work for the Harris & Matteucci ( Correct spelling ) E-7 bodies that might be interesting to some along with the suggestions on how best to paint them.
 
   Harris & Matteucci   928 Fitzwater Street  Philadelphia, Pa  The company sold them as E-7's. A & B bodies only. Seems to be their only HO engines. " The material from which the casting is made is manganese bronze, a material that is very tough but easily worked and soldered to ".
 
  Suggestions for finishing your H&M castings. " Remember to hold paint best the surface should not be glass smooth. Using a strong solution of WASHING soda ( no idea exactly what. Baking soda maybe ) and hot water scrub the casting very carefully. Rinse well and then dip the casting in a strong vinegar solution. This will neutralize any remaining alkali. Remember paint will not adhere in  the presence of an alkali. Dry with clean cloth and avoid touching the casting with the hands ".
 
  Just thought this might be interesting to some.
 
  To W Jay W, Chris B,    Concerning powering J S Cambron bodies. I have powered my PA-1 and PB-1 using Athearn's PA drives with flywheels. I had to mill a lot out of the very thick bodies to get a press fit. I normally wouldn't use such a "modern" drive but was the easiest way to power both as the J S Cambron were sold as shells only.
 
                                                                      Jim H
 
  
 
                                                        



--
Regards,
Walter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13980 From: Robert the N. Date: 4/28/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
>
> Suggestions for finishing your H&M castings. " Remember to hold paint best the surface should not be glass smooth. Using a strong solution of WASHING soda ( no idea exactly what. Baking soda maybe ) and hot water scrub the casting very carefully.

Washing soda is sodium carbonate, baking soda is sodium bicarbonate, not the same thing. I'm no chemist, but I think washing soda is more caustic than baking soda and thus more effective as a cleansing agent.

Since washing soda is not sold as a food product, I suspect it is not as thoroughly purified and tested as baking soda and hence not as expensive.

Look for it in the soap/detergent/laundry aisle at the store. When you get it home and open the box you'll probably see rather large translucent crystals, rather than the white powder of baking soda.

Bob Netzlof
Group: vintageHO Message: 13981 From: Mike Sloane Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Walter is correct - the stuff sold today in the US as "washing soda" is
sodium carbonate and is relatively mild. What some folks used to call
"washing soda" is tri-sodium phosphate (TSP), which is still available
in the paint section of hardware and "big box" stores (sold for cleaning
masonry). It is a little more aggressive than washing soda but shouldn't
hurt brass in dilute form. I use TSP as an electrolyte in my
electrolytic de-rusting system, and it can be rough on your hands if you
let them soak (but it takes grease and oil off VERY well). So the lesson
is to use anything like this with caution.

Mike

Walter Bayer II wrote:
>
>
> Interesting instructions, Jim, and perhaps very useful for preping other
> brass and bronze models for painting with relative ease.
> According to 'dictionary.com <http://dictionary.com>', "washing soda" is
> sodium carbonate, as distinguished from sodium bicarbonate. "Baking
> soda" is sodium bicarbonate. I'm not a chemist, but I think the
> carbonate of soda is more alkaline than the bicarbonate of soda, so it
> washes things better. Don't recall having seen washing soda offered for
> sale recently [like the past 30 years], but I can't say I've looked for
> it either.
> Walter
>
Group: vintageHO Message: 13982 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Multiple C&O F Units (was Dallas Model Craft)
Hi Chris B., and All,
 
In this case not multiple C&O E's but F-units.  Attached are a couple of photos of beautifully painted and detailed Varney all metal F-3's.  They were custom painted and detailed by noted professional modeler John Gascoyne, who often specilized in C&O and had photos and an article or two published in Model Railroader.  Most of these are signed and dated in the early 1950's.  Gascoyne made his own flush fit porthole windows (this was before Silver Streak's, later Walther's "Diesel Dress-up Kits") installed grabs and custom milled lucite coupler mounts for original K-D's.   
 
I'm not a C&O modeler, but these were such excellent examples to show non-vintage modelers how nicely the "old Varney's" could be, I could not pass them up at an excellent price.   In a round about way and after we had discussed George Stock, I found that John Glaab, editor of the third edition of the Brown Book of Brass Locomotives was also a fan and collector of John Gascoyne's work.  I wonder if any others in our group specifically look for or collect the vintage work of custom builders like these two mentioned or 1950's HO steam specialist builder Joe Dorazio?
My C&O units need a little TLC and restoration, plus some of the standard Varney drive componants are in disrepair and I should list gather together what I need to get them all running well again.
 
W Jay W. 
 


From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
To: Vint Ho <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, April 28, 2010 10:34:59 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides

 

Hi W.Jay W., glad to hear I'm not the only one afflicted with chronic MVEU (Multiple Vintage E-Unititis) !

In my case, the C&O were the final owners of the W&OD, so my similar long range someday plan for these E unit lashups is the fine looking blue &maize paint scheme the C&O had on its E units.

They'd have to have made a wrong turn at Potomac yard in Alexandria to show up at Bluemont Jct., but it could have happened!??! Sur it could.
Chris B.


From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:06:09 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides

 

Hi Chris B.,

It seems many of us harbor that desire to have and run a hobbytown of Boston A-B-B-A E-6 lash up! Although my favored modeling roads DL&W or Erie/EL did not have those E-6's, my fallback railroad for modeling "orphan" locomotives is PRR, and they did operate those in A-B-B-A combinations. I reasoned a full compliment of four would look great pulling my string of American Beauty six stripe PRR full length cars, (but not on my small layout!).

Since then, by chance found many of the American Beauty cars including the unique chair car in GN Empire Builder colors and have nominally assigned one hobbytown DC-90 powered A-B set to that GN consist (but not tackled the complex locomotive paint job yet) and left the other DC-90 powered A-B set for the Pensy train.

By the time I fully restore and paint them, it is entirely possible that at least a matching E-6 A unit might be added to each, LOL!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Nice work Jim, when it's all done you'll have to share a photo of both pairs lined up as one stylish vintage ABBA!
>
> I must have a real soft spot for the E units, especially four of them together. My prototype W&OD line never had anything bigger than an Alco S-2, and all the rest of the roster closet are close fits for that roster,
>
> but for some reason there's another tub in there with a full set of 8 NOS old heavy E shells (Hobbytown or Cary).
> There's 4 B units, and 2 each of the E-6 and E-7/8 A units; and 8 hobbytown frames; 4 Hobbytown drives and enough Hobbytown trucks to get them all on the rails. I don't have any multidrive parts, so far anyway, but eventually I'd like to get enough multidrive sets to make them all into AB pairs. someday...
>
> For the same reason, even though all the rest of the vintage brass in the closet is picked for making into models of actual units on the W&OD roster,
> there's a very tarnished set of four Hallmark E-8 units too, all acquired separately, but the seem to match.
> Only the A units have frames, but over the years I've collected four pairs of NOS Samshonga (sic) brass E-unit drive trucks , so that's another someday.
>
> There's no place on the layout with the large radius curves to run them, so they would all probably end up as unpainted metal shelf queens, but I just really like to see multiple HO metal E units, all linied up and ready to pull the brass off the rails.
>
> Thanks again for sharing Jim, I bet you can't wait to get those paper sides installed!
>
> Chris B
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@... >
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 4:54:32 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides [2 Attachments]
>
>
> [Attachment( s) from jim heckard included below]
> Hi W Jay W, Chris B and Others ,
>
> I wanted to pass along pictures
> of the near completed Dallas Model Craft first run E unit Dummy B with paper
> sides. This is the item many got together and bought for me. It only
> lacks getting the papersides back to install. They are out being reconditioned
> by a friend.
>
> I now have the first version
> paper sided A & B and the second version with embossed metal
> sides A & B . Hopefully in the future I
> will find the DMC powered FT "A" unit ( I have the dummy B ) and think I
> will have all engines DMC produced.
>
> I did find out one interesting fact
> pertaining to the ends of the E unit engines. I have found ends made of two
> different metals ( cast aluminum and cast copper? ). Also I have found 3
> different styles pertaining to the door opening pattern. One type is a
> rectangle, the next is a rectangle shape rounded at the top and the last is a
> rectangle rounded at the top but having raised areas aide the length top to
> bottom of the pattern. Adams & Sons must have liked changing things around.
>
> While this last tidbit is minor it just goes
> to show there can be small differences even in a kind of limited run item. This
> small point is now a verified fact but shows how hard it can be to find these
> things out.
>
>
> Jim H
>


  @@attachment@@
Group: vintageHO Message: 13983 From: David J. Starr Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
On 4/28/2010 10:40 PM, Robert the N. wrote:
> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard"<jimheck@...> wrote:
>>
>> Suggestions for finishing your H&M castings. " Remember to hold paint best the surface should not be glass smooth. Using a strong solution of WASHING soda ( no idea exactly what. Baking soda maybe ) and hot water scrub the casting very carefully.
>
> Washing soda is sodium carbonate, baking soda is sodium bicarbonate, not the same thing. I'm no chemist, but I think washing soda is more caustic than baking soda and thus more effective as a cleansing agent.
>
> Since washing soda is not sold as a food product, I suspect it is not as thoroughly purified and tested as baking soda and hence not as expensive.
>
> Look for it in the soap/detergent/laundry aisle at the store. When you get it home and open the box you'll probably see rather large translucent crystals, rather than the white powder of baking soda.
>
> Bob Netzlof
>
>
Not sure if I buy that. To get paint to stick to metal you want to
have some "tooth" in the metal surface. I pickle the metal in a mild
acid, usually supermarket vinegar. Plus absolutely no grease or oil. No
fingerprints. I degrease with hot water and soap. Once clean and
pickled, don't touch the metal with bare hands, the fingerprints can
spoil the paint.
I use auto primer for the first coat, on the theory that the auto
mechanics are getting the best "stick-to-metal" chemistry that the paint
companies can make. I'm never sure if the hobby paint company primers
are anything more than their regular paints in primer colors.

Washing soda is different from baking soda. I don't recommend cooking
with washing soda. One thing washing soda is really good at. It will
take pitch off saw blades better than anything else.

--
David J. Starr

Blog: http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Group: vintageHO Message: 13984 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Multiple C&O F Units (was Dallas Model Craft) [2 Attachments]
WoW!
Gorgeous!
From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 05:56:36 -0700 (PDT)
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Multiple C&O F Units (was Dallas Model Craft) [2 Attachments]

 

Hi Chris B., and All,
 
In this case not multiple C&O E's but F-units.  Attached are a couple of photos of beautifully painted and detailed Varney all metal F-3's.  They were custom painted and detailed by noted professional modeler John Gascoyne, who often specilized in C&O and had photos and an article or two published in Model Railroader.  Most of these are signed and dated in the early 1950's.  Gascoyne made his own flush fit porthole windows (this was before Silver Streak's, later Walther's "Diesel Dress-up Kits") installed grabs and custom milled lucite coupler mounts for original K-D's.   
 
I'm not a C&O modeler, but these were such excellent examples to show non-vintage modelers how nicely the "old Varney's" could be, I could not pass them up at an excellent price.   In a round about way and after we had discussed George Stock, I found that John Glaab, editor of the third edition of the Brown Book of Brass Locomotives was also a fan and collector of John Gascoyne's work.  I wonder if any others in our group specifically look for or collect the vintage work of custom builders like these two mentioned or 1950's HO steam specialist builder Joe Dorazio?
My C&O units need a little TLC and restoration, plus some of the standard Varney drive componants are in disrepair and I should list gather together what I need to get them all running well again.
 
W Jay W. 
 


From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
To: Vint Ho <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Wed, April 28, 2010 10:34:59 AM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides

 

Hi W.Jay W., glad to hear I'm not the only one afflicted with chronic MVEU (Multiple Vintage E-Unititis) !

In my case, the C&O were the final owners of the W&OD, so my similar long range someday plan for these E unit lashups is the fine looking blue &maize paint scheme the C&O had on its E units.

They'd have to have made a wrong turn at Potomac yard in Alexandria to show up at Bluemont Jct., but it could have happened!??! Sur it could.
Chris B.


From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:06:09 -0000
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides

 

Hi Chris B.,

It seems many of us harbor that desire to have and run a hobbytown of Boston A-B-B-A E-6 lash up! Although my favored modeling roads DL&W or Erie/EL did not have those E-6's, my fallback railroad for modeling "orphan" locomotives is PRR, and they did operate those in A-B-B-A combinations. I reasoned a full compliment of four would look great pulling my string of American Beauty six stripe PRR full length cars, (but not on my small layout!).

Since then, by chance found many of the American Beauty cars including the unique chair car in GN Empire Builder colors and have nominally assigned one hobbytown DC-90 powered A-B set to that GN consist (but not tackled the complex locomotive paint job yet) and left the other DC-90 powered A-B set for the Pensy train.

By the time I fully restore and paint them, it is entirely possible that at least a matching E-6 A unit might be added to each, LOL!

W. Jay W.

--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Chris B <chrisb_acw_ rr@...> wrote:
>
> Nice work Jim, when it's all done you'll have to share a photo of both pairs lined up as one stylish vintage ABBA!
>
> I must have a real soft spot for the E units, especially four of them together. My prototype W&OD line never had anything bigger than an Alco S-2, and all the rest of the roster closet are close fits for that roster,
>
> but for some reason there's another tub in there with a full set of 8 NOS old heavy E shells (Hobbytown or Cary).
> There's 4 B units, and 2 each of the E-6 and E-7/8 A units; and 8 hobbytown frames; 4 Hobbytown drives and enough Hobbytown trucks to get them all on the rails. I don't have any multidrive parts, so far anyway, but eventually I'd like to get enough multidrive sets to make them all into AB pairs. someday...
>
> For the same reason, even though all the rest of the vintage brass in the closet is picked for making into models of actual units on the W&OD roster,
> there's a very tarnished set of four Hallmark E-8 units too, all acquired separately, but the seem to match.
> Only the A units have frames, but over the years I've collected four pairs of NOS Samshonga (sic) brass E-unit drive trucks , so that's another someday.
>
> There's no place on the layout with the large radius curves to run them, so they would all probably end up as unpainted metal shelf queens, but I just really like to see multiple HO metal E units, all linied up and ready to pull the brass off the rails.
>
> Thanks again for sharing Jim, I bet you can't wait to get those paper sides installed!
>
> Chris B
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: jim heckard <jimheck@... >
> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
> Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 4:54:32 PM
> Subject: [vintageHO] Dallas Model Craft Paper Sides [2 Attachments]
>
>
> [Attachment( s) from jim heckard included below]
> Hi W Jay W, Chris B and Others ,
>
> I wanted to pass along pictures
> of the near completed Dallas Model Craft first run E unit Dummy B with paper
> sides. This is the item many got together and bought for me. It only
> lacks getting the papersides back to install. They are out being reconditioned
> by a friend.
>
> I now have the first version
> paper sided A & B and the second version with embossed metal
> sides A & B . Hopefully in the future I
> will find the DMC powered FT "A" unit ( I have the dummy B ) and think I
> will have all engines DMC produced.
>
> I did find out one interesting fact
> pertaining to the ends of the E unit engines. I have found ends made of two
> different metals ( cast aluminum and cast copper? ). Also I have found 3
> different styles pertaining to the door opening pattern. One type is a
> rectangle, the next is a rectangle shape rounded at the top and the last is a
> rectangle rounded at the top but having raised areas aide the length top to
> bottom of the pattern. Adams & Sons must have liked changing things around.
>
> While this last tidbit is minor it just goes
> to show there can be small differences even in a kind of limited run item. This
> small point is now a verified fact but shows how hard it can be to find these
> things out.
>
>
> Jim H
>


Group: vintageHO Message: 13985 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Chris,
  Although I have never tried it I see no reason why a Hobbytown PA drive can't fit in a J S Cambron body. However I think you may have to mill out, not just file, to fit.
 
                    Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
To: Vint Ho
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies

 

Jim, thanks, that paint prep guidance would apply to most cast shells as well.
As for PA power, I do have 1 hobbytown PA A-unit and 2 hobbytown PA drive chassis...

I always hoped to run into a B-unit shell, but now maybe I'll keep an eye out for JS Cambron shells...
Any reason to think a hobbytown PA drive chassis wouldn't fit?


As for my Garco switcher, it does run feebly, but it does run, and that's with the smaller motor and 8 wheel drive,

but what gives me more vintage HO grins than I'd get from improving performance,
Is seeing it run with the orig fabric insulated wire, and ancient looking, possibly original spring drive belt and rubber drive tubing.

When one of those old items fails, maybe that will be a good time to drop in a small block Lindsey! (G)

Chris b.


From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:54:11 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Harris Matteucci E-7 Bodies

 

      
       I just found some paper work for the Harris & Matteucci ( Correct spelling ) E-7 bodies that might be interesting to some along with the suggestions on how best to paint them.
 
   Harris & Matteucci   928 Fitzwater Street  Philadelphia, Pa  The company sold them as E-7's. A & B bodies only. Seems to be their only HO engines. " The material from which the casting is made is manganese bronze, a material that is very tough but easily worked and soldered to ".
 
  Suggestions for finishing your H&M castings. " Remember to hold paint best the surface should not be glass smooth. Using a strong solution of WASHING soda ( no idea exactly what. Baking soda maybe ) and hot water scrub the casting very carefully. Rinse well and then dip the casting in a strong vinegar solution. This will neutralize any remaining alkali. Remember paint will not adhere in  the presence of an alkali. Dry with clean cloth and avoid touching the casting with the hands ".
 
  Just thought this might be interesting to some.
 
  To W Jay W, Chris B,    Concerning powering J S Cambron bodies. I have powered my PA-1 and PB-1 using Athearn's PA drives with flywheels. I had to mill a lot out of the very thick bodies to get a press fit. I normally wouldn't use such a "modern" drive but was the easiest way to power both as the J S Cambron were sold as shells only.
 
                                                                      Jim H
 
  
 
                                                        

Group: vintageHO Message: 13986 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Harris
Please recall that Jim's quote then goes on to tell the reader to give the cleaned brass a vinegar bath to neutralize the sodium carbonate. It doesn't appear to mention the mild etching that will also take place, but the acid bath is the next step
Walter

--
Regards,
Walter
Group: vintageHO Message: 13987 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Re: Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies
Thanks Jim, in that case I'd be inclined to substitite a modified low profile OMI Overland style drive into the hobbytown frame.

Speaking of low profile drives, have you ever noticed the early appearance of the dual shaft, dual flywheel (and low profile) drive systems in the Pennsylvania models lit pages in HO seeker?

Omi Overland drives add sprung trucks to that design, and several other makers just added tall gear towers and a higher motor mount,

But I always wanted to ask the group if the pennsylvania models drives were the earliest dual shaft dual flywheel diesel drives?

Chris B

Sorry can't attach the ho seeker link on my blkbery, but if nobody knows the ad I mean, tell me and I'll find and attach it at lunch time.


From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 11:05:57 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies

 

Chris,
  Although I have never tried it I see no reason why a Hobbytown PA drive can't fit in a J S Cambron body. However I think you may have to mill out, not just file, to fit.
 
                    Jim H
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris B
To: Vint Ho
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Harris & Matteucci E-7 Bodies

 

Jim, thanks, that paint prep guidance would apply to most cast shells as well.
As for PA power, I do have 1 hobbytown PA A-unit and 2 hobbytown PA drive chassis...

I always hoped to run into a B-unit shell, but now maybe I'll keep an eye out for JS Cambron shells...
Any reason to think a hobbytown PA drive chassis wouldn't fit?


As for my Garco switcher, it does run feebly, but it does run, and that's with the smaller motor and 8 wheel drive,

but what gives me more vintage HO grins than I'd get from improving performance,
Is seeing it run with the orig fabric insulated wire, and ancient looking, possibly original spring drive belt and rubber drive tubing.

When one of those old items fails, maybe that will be a good time to drop in a small block Lindsey! (G)

Chris b.


From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@losch. net>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:54:11 -0400
To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
Subject: [vintageHO] Harris Matteucci E-7 Bodies

 

      
       I just found some paper work for the Harris & Matteucci ( Correct spelling ) E-7 bodies that might be interesting to some along with the suggestions on how best to paint them.
 
   Harris & Matteucci   928 Fitzwater Street  Philadelphia, Pa  The company sold them as E-7's. A & B bodies only. Seems to be their only HO engines. " The material from which the casting is made is manganese bronze, a material that is very tough but easily worked and soldered to ".
 
  Suggestions for finishing your H&M castings. " Remember to hold paint best the surface should not be glass smooth. Using a strong solution of WASHING soda ( no idea exactly what. Baking soda maybe ) and hot water scrub the casting very carefully. Rinse well and then dip the casting in a strong vinegar solution. This will neutralize any remaining alkali. Remember paint will not adhere in  the presence of an alkali. Dry with clean cloth and avoid touching the casting with the hands ".
 
  Just thought this might be interesting to some.
 
  To W Jay W, Chris B,    Concerning powering J S Cambron bodies. I have powered my PA-1 and PB-1 using Athearn's PA drives with flywheels. I had to mill a lot out of the very thick bodies to get a press fit. I normally wouldn't use such a "modern" drive but was the easiest way to power both as the J S Cambron were sold as shells only.
 
                                                                      Jim H
 
  
 
                                                        

Group: vintageHO Message: 13988 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
Subject: Fw: Pa scale models drive mech
Attachments :

    From: "Brannigan, Chris J - Washington, DC" <chris.j.brannigan@...>
    Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:17:16 -0500
    To: chrisb_acw_rr@...<chrisb_acw_rr@...>
    Subject: Pa scale models drive mech

    Jim, group, attached is the page from HO Seeker showing the Pennsylvania Scale Models drive I was describing. 
    My query is this:
    Is this the earliest commercial offering of a dual shaft, dual flywheel, HO diesel drive mechanism?
    Chris B.
     
     
    Group: vintageHO Message: 13989 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
    Subject: Re: Fw: Pa scale models drive mech
    Attachments :
      By coincidence, and I'm not bidding or selling, Mr Hobbytown on ebay who sold other vntg diesels recently, has a PA scale models shell with this drive mechanism. HO Seeker has the ad page for this model that's on ebay right before the pg in my prev email.
      Chris B
      From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
      Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:19:17 +0000
      To: Vint Ho<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: Pa scale models drive mech


      From: "Brannigan, Chris J - Washington, DC" <chris.j.brannigan@...>
      Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:17:16 -0500
      To: chrisb_acw_rr@...<chrisb_acw_rr@...>
      Subject: Pa scale models drive mech

      Jim, group, attached is the page from HO Seeker showing the Pennsylvania Scale Models drive I was describing. 
      My query is this:
      Is this the earliest commercial offering of a dual shaft, dual flywheel, HO diesel drive mechanism?
      Chris B.
       
       
      Group: vintageHO Message: 13990 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
      Subject: Re: Fw: Pa scale models drive mech
      Attachments :
        And Cambron PA and PB shells with some maker's vntg drive trucks!
        Plus more goodies!
        I just took delivery today here at work on a second suydam baldwin steeple cab I needed, or
        I 'd be looking at all of this seller's latest, trying to pick what to bid on! I'm done buying for now,time to get back to work on the layout!

        From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
        Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:47:56 +0000
        To: Vint Ho<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Fw: Pa scale models drive mech

         

        By coincidence, and I'm not bidding or selling, Mr Hobbytown on ebay who sold other vntg diesels recently, has a PA scale models shell with this drive mechanism. HO Seeker has the ad page for this model that's on ebay right before the pg in my prev email.
        Chris B


        From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
        Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:19:17 +0000
        To: Vint Ho<vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: Pa scale models drive mech


        From: "Brannigan, Chris J - Washington, DC" <chris.j.brannigan@ usps.gov>
        Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:17:16 -0500
        To: chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com<chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: Pa scale models drive mech

        Jim, group, attached is the page from HO Seeker showing the Pennsylvania Scale Models drive I was describing. 
        My query is this:
        Is this the earliest commercial offering of a dual shaft, dual flywheel, HO diesel drive mechanism?
        Chris B.
         
         
        Group: vintageHO Message: 13991 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2010
        Subject: PSM dual shaft, dual flywheel
        Chris,
         
             " But I always wanted to ask the group if Pennsylvania Models drives were the earliest dual shaft, dual flywheel drives "
         
              You pose an interesting question about the PSM ( Pennsylvania Scale Models ) motor for their diesel. It would take a little investigating to find out the answer. I would have to check back the year PSM had their motor made against all other motors / engines and also check which if any had dual shaft, dual flywheel. Having over 250 vintage HO diesels in my collection with all kinds of drives plus lots of paperwork / info I can't recall off the top of my head.. Maybe someone else can .
         
            I do remember PSM designed their own motor and THINK I remember they had Pittman build them.
         
                                                      Jim H
        Group: vintageHO Message: 13992 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2010
        Subject: J S Cambron ? mystery
        All,
         
               Need help to positively I.D. if either  the set for sale on eBay ( item 300421424945 / Cambron Cast Brass Alco PA_PB ) or the pictures I have sent ( cast brass ? undecorated and natural color of casting ) are J S Cambron. I'm not saying that seller is right or wrong or I am right or wrong. What this I D will mean is that one of the pictured PA & PB Alco sets is kind of unknown.
         
           I'm only talking about the bodies only. Neither set is a Hobbytown or Lindsay match for sure as both of these are cast metal ( Zamac ) and only made A units. Athearn of course is plastic.
         
           Not having much available paperwork I have been told by many other outside vintage collectors that my PA & PB units are J S Cambron. Yet the possibility remains that the pictured item on eBay could be.
         
          You will have to closely compare details on both sets to see the differences. I didn't notice them at first till I looked real close. Which ever set turns out to be Cambron the other set is kind of an unknown and would be interesting to get.
         
           Any help pertaining to the I.D. really appreciated.
         
                                                      Jim H
         
         
          @@attachment@@
        Group: vintageHO Message: 13993 From: Chris B Date: 4/29/2010
        Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]
        W. Jay W., didn't you just write and say you had a JS Cambron PA? Or am I having a senior moment?
        From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
        Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:48:55 -0400
        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [vintageHO] J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]

         

        All,
         
               Need help to positively I.D. if either  the set for sale on eBay ( item 300421424945 / Cambron Cast Brass Alco PA_PB ) or the pictures I have sent ( cast brass ? undecorated and natural color of casting ) are J S Cambron. I'm not saying that seller is right or wrong or I am right or wrong. What this I D will mean is that one of the pictured PA & PB Alco sets is kind of unknown.
         
           I'm only talking about the bodies only. Neither set is a Hobbytown or Lindsay match for sure as both of these are cast metal ( Zamac ) and only made A units. Athearn of course is plastic.
         
           Not having much available paperwork I have been told by many other outside vintage collectors that my PA & PB units are J S Cambron. Yet the possibility remains that the pictured item on eBay could be.
         
          You will have to closely compare details on both sets to see the differences. I didn't notice them at first till I looked real close. Which ever set turns out to be Cambron the other set is kind of an unknown and would be interesting to get.
         
           Any help pertaining to the I.D. really appreciated.
         
                                                      Jim H
         
         
        Group: vintageHO Message: 13994 From: jim heckard Date: 4/29/2010
        Subject: additional detail picture
        Attachments :
        All, 
         
           This is an additional picture to show better detail of the area around the windows that didn't show up in the first pictures I sent to identify.
         
                                         Jim H
          @@attachment@@
        Group: vintageHO Message: 13995 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/29/2010
        Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]
        Ho Chris,, No an aluminum Cambron E-A unit. W Jay W.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
        >
        > W. Jay W., didn't you just write and say you had a JS Cambron PA? Or am I having a senior moment?
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
        > Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:48:55
        > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: [vintageHO] J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]
        >
        > All,
        >
        > Need help to positively I.D. if either the set for sale on eBay ( item 300421424945 / Cambron Cast Brass Alco PA_PB ) or the pictures I have sent ( cast brass ? undecorated and natural color of casting ) are J S Cambron. I'm not saying that seller is right or wrong or I am right or wrong. What this I D will mean is that one of the pictured PA & PB Alco sets is kind of unknown.
        >
        > I'm only talking about the bodies only. Neither set is a Hobbytown or Lindsay match for sure as both of these are cast metal ( Zamac ) and only made A units. Athearn of course is plastic.
        >
        > Not having much available paperwork I have been told by many other outside vintage collectors that my PA & PB units are J S Cambron. Yet the possibility remains that the pictured item on eBay could be.
        >
        > You will have to closely compare details on both sets to see the differences. I didn't notice them at first till I looked real close. Which ever set turns out to be Cambron the other set is kind of an unknown and would be interesting to get.
        >
        > Any help pertaining to the I.D. really appreciated.
        >
        > Jim H
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 13996 From: Ken Date: 4/29/2010
        Subject: New member and old user
        Hello everyone. It's nice to see some familiar names from my other groups. I'm a Hobbytown of Boston user and a collector of Athearn Metal Line ,Roundhouse Diecast products and Lawrence Line with Lindsay power.
        I just can't bring myself to use old motors in these except the Lindsays. I use Maxon or Falbauer 2:1 gearhead motors. I can have a very small motor with lots of torque. I'm in the process of building a Varney Docksider with DCC sound and flywheel and CV valve gear. I convert the lindsays to DCC also by making a new insulated brush holder. I then remagnetize it. With DCC any bad starting tendencies
        they have goes away. I'm also looking for a few more Roundhouse 4 truck Heavyduty flats. If you have any surplus let me know. Thanks and so far good reading.........Ken
        Group: vintageHO Message: 13997 From: the_plainsman Date: 4/30/2010
        Subject: Re: Cambron and Mystery PA's
        Hi Jim H., All,

        I just did a side by side comparison this AM of your PA unit and the one on eBay and agree they appear to be two different models. Can't answer the question as to which is by Cambron - or was there an early Cambron and later Cambron master and castings? Identifying my Cambron aluminum E A unit was easy as there is a large recessed area on the inside of the cab side with raised letters, "CAMBRON", but have no knowledge if they marked any of their other models that way.

        Unfortunately, the tight budget won't allow be to be bidding on these and the H&M models as well, as I just closed on another vintage locomotive which I have searched for during the past 7-8 years. I was beginning to think it was one of those cataloged but never manufactured items. I will share photos and the positive ID (or ask more questions!) when it arrives.

        W. Jay W.



        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
        >
        > All,
        >
        > This is an additional picture to show better detail of the area around the windows that didn't show up in the first pictures I sent to identify.
        >
        > Jim H
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 13998 From: Mike Bauers Date: 4/30/2010
        Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
        If you refer to an aluminum PA shell; I have one of those........

        Best to ya,
        Mike Bauers
        Milwaukee, Wi

        On Apr 29, 2010, at 6:48 PM, the_plainsman wrote:

        > Ho Chris,, No an aluminum Cambron E-A unit. W Jay W.
        >
        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> W. Jay W., didn't you just write and say you had a JS Cambron PA?
        >> Or am I having a senior moment?
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
        >> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:48:55
        >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        >> Subject: [vintageHO] J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]
        >>
        >> All,
        >>
        >> Need help to positively I.D. if either the set for sale on
        >> eBay ( item 300421424945 / Cambron Cast Brass Alco PA_PB ) or the
        >> pictures I have sent ( cast brass ? undecorated and natural color
        >> of casting ) are J S Cambron. I'm not saying that seller is right
        >> or wrong or I am right or wrong. What this I D will mean is that
        >> one of the pictured PA & PB Alco sets is kind of unknown.
        >>
        >> I'm only talking about the bodies only. Neither set is a
        >> Hobbytown or Lindsay match for sure as both of these are cast metal
        >> ( Zamac ) and only made A units. Athearn of course is plastic.
        >>
        >> Not having much available paperwork I have been told by many
        >> other outside vintage collectors that my PA & PB units are J S
        >> Cambron. Yet the possibility remains that the pictured item on eBay
        >> could be.
        >>
        >> You will have to closely compare details on both sets to see the
        >> differences. I didn't notice them at first till I looked real
        >> close. Which ever set turns out to be Cambron the other set is kind
        >> of an unknown and would be interesting to get.
        >>
        >> Any help pertaining to the I.D. really appreciated.
        >>
        >> Jim H
        Group: vintageHO Message: 13999 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/1/2010
        Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
        Sorry, Mike B. and All; My fingers typed too fast and left off the "-6" mine is a Cambron cast aluminum E-6 A unit, with the name "CAMBRON" cast into the inside cab wall (not a PA). I have wondered if Cambron identifed all their castings that way. W. Jay W.


        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
        >
        > If you refer to an aluminum PA shell; I have one of those........
        >
        > Best to ya,
        > Mike Bauers
        > Milwaukee, Wi
        >
        > On Apr 29, 2010, at 6:48 PM, the_plainsman wrote:
        >
        > > Ho Chris,, No an aluminum Cambron E-A unit. W Jay W.
        > >
        > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> W. Jay W., didn't you just write and say you had a JS Cambron PA?
        > >> Or am I having a senior moment?
        > >> -----Original Message-----
        > >> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@>
        > >> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:48:55
        > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        > >> Subject: [vintageHO] J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]
        > >>
        > >> All,
        > >>
        > >> Need help to positively I.D. if either the set for sale on
        > >> eBay ( item 300421424945 / Cambron Cast Brass Alco PA_PB ) or the
        > >> pictures I have sent ( cast brass ? undecorated and natural color
        > >> of casting ) are J S Cambron. I'm not saying that seller is right
        > >> or wrong or I am right or wrong. What this I D will mean is that
        > >> one of the pictured PA & PB Alco sets is kind of unknown.
        > >>
        > >> I'm only talking about the bodies only. Neither set is a
        > >> Hobbytown or Lindsay match for sure as both of these are cast metal
        > >> ( Zamac ) and only made A units. Athearn of course is plastic.
        > >>
        > >> Not having much available paperwork I have been told by many
        > >> other outside vintage collectors that my PA & PB units are J S
        > >> Cambron. Yet the possibility remains that the pictured item on eBay
        > >> could be.
        > >>
        > >> You will have to closely compare details on both sets to see the
        > >> differences. I didn't notice them at first till I looked real
        > >> close. Which ever set turns out to be Cambron the other set is kind
        > >> of an unknown and would be interesting to get.
        > >>
        > >> Any help pertaining to the I.D. really appreciated.
        > >>
        > >> Jim H
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14000 From: jim heckard Date: 5/1/2010
        Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
        W Jay W, Mike B, All,
         
           Jay,     Interesting to me to know you have an Aluminum shell with the Cambron name inside.  Again there seems to be very little info out there, save for some ads in train magazines, about Cambron. I had heard they made both Aluminum and Brass / Bronze ?  ( Not sure exactly alloy used )
         
          Mike B,    Also very interesting to hear about an Aluminum PA shell by Cambron. My limited knowledge had always been only the Brass / Bronze for the PA's. Does your shell have Cambron inside like Jay's shell ?  Is it identified in some other way as Cambron and could you possibly send a picture of it ? If not how does it match up detail wise to the pictures I sent.
         
          I don't know how long Cambron was in business but it couldn't have been to long. I would really like to find out plus what their product line included, materials used and were there different versions / runs. Perhaps some one might have some paperwork or at least a product review or ad from MR, RMC, etc.
         
          However these bits of info help to piece the history of Cambron together. Any help appreciated. Thanks.
         
                                                 Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 8:50 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: J S Cambron ? mystery

         

        Sorry, Mike B. and All; My fingers typed too fast and left off the "-6" mine is a Cambron cast aluminum E-6 A unit, with the name "CAMBRON" cast into the inside cab wall (not a PA). I have wondered if Cambron identifed all their castings that way. W. Jay W.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > If you refer to an aluminum PA shell; I have one of those....... .
        >
        > Best to ya,
        > Mike Bauers
        > Milwaukee, Wi
        >
        > On Apr 29, 2010, at 6:48 PM, the_plainsman wrote:
        >
        > > Ho Chris,, No an aluminum Cambron E-A unit. W Jay W.
        > >
        > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> W. Jay W., didn't you just write and say you had a JS Cambron PA?
        > >> Or am I having a senior moment?
        > >> -----Original Message-----
        > >> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@>
        > >> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:48:55
        > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
        > >> Subject: [vintageHO] J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]
        > >>
        > >> All,
        > >>
        > >> Need help to positively I.D. if either the set for sale on
        > >> eBay ( item 300421424945 / Cambron Cast Brass Alco PA_PB ) or the
        > >> pictures I have sent ( cast brass ? undecorated and natural color
        > >> of casting ) are J S Cambron. I'm not saying that seller is right
        > >> or wrong or I am right or wrong. What this I D will mean is that
        > >> one of the pictured PA & PB Alco sets is kind of unknown.
        > >>
        > >> I'm only talking about the bodies only. Neither set is a
        > >> Hobbytown or Lindsay match for sure as both of these are cast metal
        > >> ( Zamac ) and only made A units. Athearn of course is plastic.
        > >>
        > >> Not having much available paperwork I have been told by many
        > >> other outside vintage collectors that my PA & PB units are J S
        > >> Cambron. Yet the possibility remains that the pictured item on eBay
        > >> could be.
        > >>
        > >> You will have to closely compare details on both sets to see the
        > >> differences. I didn't notice them at first till I looked real
        > >> close. Which ever set turns out to be Cambron the other set is kind
        > >> of an unknown and would be interesting to get.
        > >>
        > >> Any help pertaining to the I.D. really appreciated.
        > >>
        > >> Jim H
        >

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14001 From: Chris B Date: 5/1/2010
        Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
        FWIW, Multiple Cambron cast brass art pieces are available at various online auction sites. 
        Is it possible Cambron was more of a small art foundry, rather than only a vintage HO diesel shell maker?

        Chris B.

         
        Get fast shipping and excellent service when you buy from eBay 
Top-rated sellers0 Bids$8.99Apr-29 17:


        Mid Century Gallery - Original Cambron Solid Brass Studio Art ...

        This is a huge solid brass original art bowl by Cambron of a Mauau plant. Condition shown in photos, no chips etc, slight bit of green in a couple places. ...
        www.midcenturygallery.com/.../original-cambron-solid-brass-studio-art- mauau-platter - 


        Cambron, USA, Art brassware.  Further details welcome.


        Vintage brass bull head by Cambron

        Vintage 
brass bull head by Cambron
        You Searched: cambron brass

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

         


        From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, May 1, 2010 9:37:07 AM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: J S Cambron ? mystery

         

        W Jay W, Mike B, All,
         
           Jay,     Interesting to me to know you have an Aluminum shell with the Cambron name inside.  Again there seems to be very little info out there, save for some ads in train magazines, about Cambron. I had heard they made both Aluminum and Brass / Bronze ?  ( Not sure exactly alloy used )
         
          Mike B,    Also very interesting to hear about an Aluminum PA shell by Cambron. My limited knowledge had always been only the Brass / Bronze for the PA's. Does your shell have Cambron inside like Jay's shell ?  Is it identified in some other way as Cambron and could you possibly send a picture of it ? If not how does it match up detail wise to the pictures I sent.
         
          I don't know how long Cambron was in business but it couldn't have been to long. I would really like to find out plus what their product line included, materials used and were there different versions / runs. Perhaps some one might have some paperwork or at least a product review or ad from MR, RMC, etc.
         
          However these bits of info help to piece the history of Cambron together. Any help appreciated. Thanks.
         
                                                 Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 8:50 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: J S Cambron ? mystery

         

        Sorry, Mike B. and All; My fingers typed too fast and left off the "-6" mine is a Cambron cast aluminum E-6 A unit, with the name "CAMBRON" cast into the inside cab wall (not a PA). I have wondered if Cambron identifed all their castings that way. W. Jay W.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > If you refer to an aluminum PA shell; I have one of those....... .
        >
        > Best to ya,
        > Mike Bauers
        > Milwaukee, Wi
        >
        > On Apr 29, 2010, at 6:48 PM, the_plainsman wrote:
        >
        > > Ho Chris,, No an aluminum Cambron E-A unit. W Jay W.
        > >
        > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_ rr@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> W. Jay W., didn't you just write and say you had a JS Cambron PA?
        > >> Or am I having a senior moment?
        > >> -----Original Message-----
        > >> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@>
        > >> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:48:55
        > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
        > >> Subject: [vintageHO] J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]
        > >>
        > >> All,
        > >>
        > >> Need help to positively I.D. if either the set for sale on
        > >> eBay ( item 300421424945 / Cambron Cast Brass Alco PA_PB ) or the
        > >> pictures I have sent ( cast brass ? undecorated and natural color
        > >> of casting ) are J S Cambron. I'm not saying that seller is right
        > >> or wrong or I am right or wrong. What this I D will mean is that
        > >> one of the pictured PA & PB Alco sets is kind of unknown.
        > >>
        > >> I'm only talking about the bodies only. Neither set is a
        > >> Hobbytown or Lindsay match for sure as both of these are cast metal
        > >> ( Zamac ) and only made A units. Athearn of course is plastic.
        > >>
        > >> Not having much available paperwork I have been told by many
        > >> other outside vintage collectors that my PA & PB units are J S
        > >> Cambron. Yet the possibility remains that the pictured item on eBay
        > >> could be.
        > >>
        > >> You will have to closely compare details on both sets to see the
        > >> differences. I didn't notice them at first till I looked real
        > >> close. Which ever set turns out to be Cambron the other set is kind
        > >> of an unknown and would be interesting to get.
        > >>
        > >> Any help pertaining to the I.D. really appreciated.
        > >>
        > >> Jim H
        >


          @@attachment@@
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14002 From: Mike Bauers Date: 5/1/2010
        Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
        On May 1, 2010, at 8:37 AM, jim heckard wrote:
        >
        > Mike B, Also very interesting to hear about an Aluminum PA
        > shell by Cambron. My limited knowledge had always been only the
        > Brass / Bronze for the PA's. Does your shell have Cambron inside
        > like Jay's shell ? Is it identified in some other way as Cambron
        > and could you possibly send a picture of it ? If not how does it
        > match up detail wise to the pictures I sent.
        ..........

        My shell has no markings in it. I have no idea who made it. I meant to
        write that I have one. I didn't say it was a Cambron for that reason.

        It does seem to have the same level of details as the bronze one that
        was recently shown. I thought it might be from the same master, when I
        saw that.


        Best to ya,
        Mike Bauers
        Milwaukee, Wi
        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > If you refer to an aluminum PA shell; I have one of those........
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14003 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/2/2010
        Subject: Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
        Hi Jim, All - Apologize for the intermittant replies these days, but we have been working on setting up our township museum in our newly restored 1870's Erie railroad station and with our dedication set for 1:00 PM today, not much time to keep on track here (Pompton Plains, NJ, about 2 mi. off I-287 and a 1/4 mil off RT. 23 on Jacskon Avenue -all in the area looking for something to do this afternoon, you are welcome).

        Cambron had one ad that I remember, will go through the back issues again. I think that ad said they cast their models in three different metals, those already mentioned and nickel silver too, and much more expensive in that metal) and had a very small photo, but until I confirm the information from the actual ad, please do not take any of this as fact. Will check thoroughly in next couple of days and report back.

        If as mentioned, Cambron was an art foundry, that would explain their proficiency in casting in several different metals. W Jay W.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
        >
        > W Jay W, Mike B, All,
        >
        > Jay, Interesting to me to know you have an Aluminum shell with the Cambron name inside. Again there seems to be very little info out there, save for some ads in train magazines, about Cambron. I had heard they made both Aluminum and Brass / Bronze ? ( Not sure exactly alloy used )
        >
        > Mike B, Also very interesting to hear about an Aluminum PA shell by Cambron. My limited knowledge had always been only the Brass / Bronze for the PA's. Does your shell have Cambron inside like Jay's shell ? Is it identified in some other way as Cambron and could you possibly send a picture of it ? If not how does it match up detail wise to the pictures I sent.
        >
        > I don't know how long Cambron was in business but it couldn't have been to long. I would really like to find out plus what their product line included, materials used and were there different versions / runs. Perhaps some one might have some paperwork or at least a product review or ad from MR, RMC, etc.
        >
        > However these bits of info help to piece the history of Cambron together. Any help appreciated. Thanks.
        >
        > Jim H
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: the_plainsman
        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2010 8:50 AM
        > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: J S Cambron ? mystery
        >
        >
        >
        > Sorry, Mike B. and All; My fingers typed too fast and left off the "-6" mine is a Cambron cast aluminum E-6 A unit, with the name "CAMBRON" cast into the inside cab wall (not a PA). I have wondered if Cambron identifed all their castings that way. W. Jay W.
        >
        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@> wrote:
        > >
        > > If you refer to an aluminum PA shell; I have one of those........
        > >
        > > Best to ya,
        > > Mike Bauers
        > > Milwaukee, Wi
        > >
        > > On Apr 29, 2010, at 6:48 PM, the_plainsman wrote:
        > >
        > > > Ho Chris,, No an aluminum Cambron E-A unit. W Jay W.
        > > >
        > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@> wrote:
        > > >>
        > > >> W. Jay W., didn't you just write and say you had a JS Cambron PA?
        > > >> Or am I having a senior moment?
        > > >> -----Original Message-----
        > > >> From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@>
        > > >> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:48:55
        > > >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        > > >> Subject: [vintageHO] J S Cambron ? mystery [2 Attachments]
        > > >>
        > > >> All,
        > > >>
        > > >> Need help to positively I.D. if either the set for sale on
        > > >> eBay ( item 300421424945 / Cambron Cast Brass Alco PA_PB ) or the
        > > >> pictures I have sent ( cast brass ? undecorated and natural color
        > > >> of casting ) are J S Cambron. I'm not saying that seller is right
        > > >> or wrong or I am right or wrong. What this I D will mean is that
        > > >> one of the pictured PA & PB Alco sets is kind of unknown.
        > > >>
        > > >> I'm only talking about the bodies only. Neither set is a
        > > >> Hobbytown or Lindsay match for sure as both of these are cast metal
        > > >> ( Zamac ) and only made A units. Athearn of course is plastic.
        > > >>
        > > >> Not having much available paperwork I have been told by many
        > > >> other outside vintage collectors that my PA & PB units are J S
        > > >> Cambron. Yet the possibility remains that the pictured item on eBay
        > > >> could be.
        > > >>
        > > >> You will have to closely compare details on both sets to see the
        > > >> differences. I didn't notice them at first till I looked real
        > > >> close. Which ever set turns out to be Cambron the other set is kind
        > > >> of an unknown and would be interesting to get.
        > > >>
        > > >> Any help pertaining to the I.D. really appreciated.
        > > >>
        > > >> Jim H
        > >
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14004 From: jim heckard Date: 5/2/2010
        Subject: J S Cambron
        W Jay W, Chris B, Mike B, All,
         
                    I am going to try to do some research on that Cambron casting company to see if there might be a connection to J S Cambron that produced the HO shells. It would make sense that there might be some relationship because of the casting of highly detailed items of different metals. If they are connected it might be possible to ask about products related to the HO market, assuming Cambron still in business.
         
            Mike B.   Sorry I read your post incorrectly. My mind put the word Cambron in your message. I appreciate your comment about the high quality of detail in your Aluminum PA shell. Maybe it can be positively identified if information becomes available.
         
                                                                   Jim H
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14005 From: rcjge Date: 5/2/2010
        Subject: Re: New member and old user
        Nice to see another HTB collector!

        -Gareth



        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Ken" <k4sb@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello everyone. It's nice to see some familiar names from my other groups. I'm a Hobbytown of Boston user and a collector of Athearn Metal Line ,Roundhouse Diecast products and Lawrence Line with Lindsay power.
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14006 From: Robert Date: 5/2/2010
        Subject: Atlas Buildings
        What ever happened to Atlas who sold HO railroad buildings? Did they go out of business in the 1960s or 1970s?
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14007 From: herb1013 Date: 5/2/2010
        Subject: Welcome to the Atlas Model Railroad Co.
        They are still around.
        Herb
        http://www.atlasrr.com/
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14008 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/2/2010
        Subject: Re: Atlas Buildings
        Hi Robert,
         
        No, they are still around, they now produce mostly ready to run loco's and rolling stock, and many of those buildings they produced back in the 50's and 60's are now also available ready to run, but also still available as kits...
         
        Gary W
         

         
        Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



        From: Robert <bobgrapes25@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 3:38:51 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Atlas Buildings

         

        What ever happened to Atlas who sold HO railroad buildings? Did they go out of business in the 1960s or 1970s?


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14009 From: Robert Date: 5/2/2010
        Subject: Steam engines that puff smoke
        How did manufacturers create HO steam engines that puff smoke, such as the Tyco 0-4-0 Shifter? Was the liquid smoke that was sold simply 3 in 1 oil? How did the units produce enough heat to puff smoke?
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14010 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/2/2010
        Subject: PSM dual shaft, dual flywheel
        PSM did have a dual shaft dual flywheel drive, but I do not know for
        how long.

        Some decades ago I purchased a PSM FM H12-4-4 that had a defective
        drive (I do not recall either the type or failure). I contacted them
        and they sent me their "brand new drive", which indeed was as
        described above.

        It ran OK, and I may still have it somewhere.

        Denny

        Denny S. Anspach MD
        Sacramento
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14011 From: Ken Date: 5/2/2010
        Subject: HTB Was: New member and old user
        Hello Gareth.
        I've been using HTb at our Club since 77. They take a beating and just keep going on and on. Last year I bought Bear Loco out of switcher frames and most of his switcher trucks. I started a FM
        assembly line. When Cary had the FM switcjer they used Pewter and had nice detail. Then Bowser took them over and went to zinc, They needed to preheat the molds because the zinc did not flow correctly. But wethering helped this fine. Now I have 8 FM switchers for the club. Most have a top speed of 20mph and Sound will find its way in the radiator opening. Got a bunch of RS, and RSDs too. Whats your favorite HTB?
        Ken






        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
        >
        > Nice to see another HTB collector!
        >
        > -Gareth
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Ken" <k4sb@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello everyone. It's nice to see some familiar names from my other groups. I'm a Hobbytown of Boston user and a collector of Athearn Metal Line ,Roundhouse Diecast products and Lawrence Line with Lindsay power.
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14012 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 5/2/2010
        Subject: Re: Steam engines that puff smoke
        The Gilbert 0-6-0 had a die cast cylinder in the smokebox, which had a heater in it.  To the rear of the smoke unit was a cylinder.  A graphite piston moved inside it, connected to a gear that operated off one of the driver axles.  This cylinder made the "chuff" sound and pushed puffs of smoke up the stack.
         
        Brad Smith
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14013 From: still just frank Date: 5/3/2010
        Subject: HO scale smoke units
        HO scale smoke units
        Tyco smoke units. This unit is very unlike the ones used by Gilbert, Lionel, Marx, Triang, and Revell. What was the same in all was a filament that when electricity was put though it would heat up. What was different was how it made the smoke puff. The five companies listed had mechanical puffing devices. Looking at their exposed drives clearly shows the piston like puffing devices. One company Triang also used the type device that Tyco used. Now Tyco, Model Power, Triang and others used a Seuth smoke unit. In it everything was self contained into a brass tube. about 3/16 of a inch in diameter. It was flared at one end and rounded off at the other. One wire came out of the rounded end. These were used on metal boilered locos. There was a two wired smoke unit for other boilers. Either the tube would fit into a smoke stack, or the stack would be removed and a 1/4 inch thin black ring would be slid up around the tube. With the tube inserted into a hole with the ring becoming the stack. As to what made the smoke unit puff I can only guess. I think a bimetallic heat operated switch was in series with the filament. Heat from the filament would change the oil to smoke. This would take a very short time. The same heat would act upon the switch causing it to open stopping the heat. No power to the filament would allow the switch to cool and close again. So a cycle of smoke and no smoke has occurred. The smoke being hotter will rise out of the stack, and you have a puff.

        frank
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14014 From: jerrygart5 Date: 5/3/2010
        Subject: Re: Steam engines that puff smoke
        Most of the smoke fluid was (is) mineral oil. Some of it was "perfumed" to smell like coal smoke, pine trees, and a number of other odors. Run some locos hard, fast, and continuously at a train show, and you could really stink up the place!!! Jerry Garteiser

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <bobgrapes25@...> wrote:
        >
        > How did manufacturers create HO steam engines that puff smoke, such as the Tyco 0-4-0 Shifter? Was the liquid smoke that was sold simply 3 in 1 oil? How did the units produce enough heat to puff smoke?
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14015 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 5/5/2010
        Subject: The next free edition of Model Railroad Hobbyist is availale now
        The May-June 2010 issue of the free Model Railroad Hobbyist eZine is now available (147 pages of new model railroading how-to content).

        Go to http://model- railroad- hobbyist. com

        Richard Bale
        News Editor
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14016 From: Tom H Date: 5/6/2010
        Subject: Varney PRR Merchandise Service boc car numbers?????
        Hi Gentlemen,
        I am trying to complete my collection of Varney PRR merchandise service metal box cars. I have numbers 42419 and 42420. I was wondering if anyone can tell me what numbers I am missing, if any. Of course the second question is does anyone have any of the cars I am missing, if there are any, that they want to sell? Thanks for your help in advance.

        Tom Hare
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14017 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/6/2010
        Subject: Re: Varney PRR Merchandise Service boc car numbers?????
        Hi Tom H.,

        According to the Varney Guide by Spanagel et als., the third of the three PRR Merchandise box car road numbers produced for kit B-68 was 92425, produced between 1951 and 1954; the two numbers you already have, 92419 and 92420 are indicated as being produced from 1951-1959.

        Only have one B-68 myself, the 92419. Good luck in your search.
        W Jay W.




        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Tom H" <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Gentlemen,
        > I am trying to complete my collection of Varney PRR merchandise service metal box cars. I have numbers 42419 and 42420. I was wondering if anyone can tell me what numbers I am missing, if any. Of course the second question is does anyone have any of the cars I am missing, if there are any, that they want to sell? Thanks for your help in advance.
        >
        > Tom Hare
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14018 From: Garry Spear Date: 5/6/2010
        Subject: Re: Varney PRR Merchandise Service boc car numbers?????
        I have both numbers.  I have been collecting these metal cars for 30-35 years and have never seen #92425.  I have seen cars that I was not able to acquire, I know I do not have a complete collection.
        I have noted my observations the verify the car numbers.

        Garry Spear

        On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 8:16 PM, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
         

        Hi Tom H.,

        According to the Varney Guide by Spanagel et als., the third of the three PRR Merchandise box car road numbers produced for kit B-68 was 92425, produced between 1951 and 1954; the two numbers you already have, 92419 and 92420 are indicated as being produced from 1951-1959.

        Only have one B-68 myself, the 92419. Good luck in your search.
        W Jay W.


        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Tom H" <jodanjackkayla@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Gentlemen,
        > I am trying to complete my collection of Varney PRR merchandise service metal box cars. I have numbers 42419 and 42420. I was wondering if anyone can tell me what numbers I am missing, if any. Of course the second question is does anyone have any of the cars I am missing, if there are any, that they want to sell? Thanks for your help in advance.
        >
        > Tom Hare
        >


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14019 From: Tom H Date: 5/6/2010
        Subject: Re: Varney PRR Merchandise Service boc car numbers?????
        Gary and Jay, thanks for the reply on the car. Guess I will have to continue to search Ebay and the train shows for the elusive number 425. Appriciate the information. Tom




        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have both numbers. I have been collecting these metal cars for 30-35
        > years and have never seen #92425. I have seen cars that I was not able to
        > acquire, I know I do not have a complete collection.
        > I have noted my observations the verify the car numbers.
        >
        > Garry Spear
        >
        > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 8:16 PM, the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Tom H.,
        > >
        > > According to the Varney Guide by Spanagel et als., the third of the three
        > > PRR Merchandise box car road numbers produced for kit B-68 was 92425,
        > > produced between 1951 and 1954; the two numbers you already have, 92419 and
        > > 92420 are indicated as being produced from 1951-1959.
        > >
        > > Only have one B-68 myself, the 92419. Good luck in your search.
        > > W Jay W.
        > >
        > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, "Tom H"
        > > <jodanjackkayla@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Gentlemen,
        > > > I am trying to complete my collection of Varney PRR merchandise service
        > > metal box cars. I have numbers 42419 and 42420. I was wondering if anyone
        > > can tell me what numbers I am missing, if any. Of course the second question
        > > is does anyone have any of the cars I am missing, if there are any, that
        > > they want to sell? Thanks for your help in advance.
        > > >
        > > > Tom Hare
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14020 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 5/7/2010
        Subject: Re: What have I got here?
        Pictures are in the folder NVRR49.  Obviously I have a hopper and a gondola, but more specifically, what brand.  I am needing instructions for assembly and to make sure I have all the pieces.  I have looked through HOSeeker and have not found what I was needing.  I obviously don't know what brand, so I may have not looked in the correct place.  For certain, I am missing one set of hopper doors, and, I would assume, the floor for the gondola.  A set of Mantua talgo trucks in the box, but I don't think they belong to either of these cars.  There is also one reefer roof hatch that does not below with either of these.  Thanks for any help.

         
        Kent Hurley
        Kansas City, MO


        Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14021 From: Robert Date: 5/7/2010
        Subject: Lionel HO trains
        Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14022 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/7/2010
        Subject: Re: What have I got here?
        Hopper appears to be Ulrich.

        I have  a very similar car lettered for the D&H

        Wood deck and cross ribs look very Athearn or Globe to me.

        -Steve Neubaum

        --- On Fri, 5/7/10, nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...> wrote:

        From: nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What have I got here?
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 7:18 PM

         

        Pictures are in the folder NVRR49.  Obviously I have a hopper and a gondola, but more specifically, what brand.  I am needing instructions for assembly and to make sure I have all the pieces.  I have looked through HOSeeker and have not found what I was needing.  I obviously don't know what brand, so I may have not looked in the correct place.  For certain, I am missing one set of hopper doors, and, I would assume, the floor for the gondola.  A set of Mantua talgo trucks in the box, but I don't think they belong to either of these cars.  There is also one reefer roof hatch that does not below with either of these.  Thanks for any help.

         
        Kent Hurley
        Kansas City, MO


        Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49. blogspot. com/

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14023 From: louis niederlander Date: 5/7/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        About three or four different times over the years.
         
        Regards,
         
        Louis N

         
        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        > From: bobgrapes25@...
        > Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 00:36:23 +0000
        > Subject: [vintageHO] Lionel HO trains
        >
        > Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        >


        The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14024 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/7/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        several times. gj
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Robert" <bobgrapes25@...>
        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 5:36 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Lionel HO trains


        > Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14025 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        Hi Robert,

        As a non-Lionel specialist, I'll venture a try to expand briefly. At first, in the mid 1950's, Lionel sold esentially what were "re-badged" Rivarossi and then Athearn HO models, though with different markings usually including the Lionel "L". Lionel contracted with Athearn for new models such as the "Virginian rectifier" electric locomotive <which I believe Athearn breifly sold as their own, too>. Lionel then designed their own models, such as their Husky and GE 44 ton center cab switcher and also acquired some of the dies from John English's HObbyline and reworked those, actually manufacturing HO models themselves.

        So you might find what seems to be earlier Rivarossi and Athearn items labled "Lionel," geared "Athean Hustlers" - actually "Lionel Husky's" missing the bottom plate with Lionel ID, and steam and Alco FA A unit locomotives looking like HObbyline, but being Lionel as well.

        Decades later, Lionel re-entered the HO market with items manufactured by Bachmann, but that is out of our time frame here.

        A very informative book on Lionel HO, worth seeking out is the Greenburg Guide to Lionel HO, which I believe is out of print, but can be found. A check through our archives and albums here, plus eBay's Lionel HO listings might help you become familiar with some of their models, too.

        W Jay W.




        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <bobgrapes25@...> wrote:
        >
        > Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14026 From: jbark76 Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: What have I got here?
        I agree the hopper is Ulrich. The floor and underframe look Athearn (possibly Globe). The gondola sides and ends look like Roundhouse. I suspect someone was trying to replace a missing floor with the Athearn parts.
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14027 From: nvrr49 Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: What have I got here?
        Thanks for the help gentleman. To summarize and make sure I have this correct.

        Other than one set of missing hopper doors, the Ulrich hopper looks complete.

        The Gondola looks to be Roundhouse, but is missing the floor/underframe, and it looks like I have Globe/Athearn floor and underframe.

        Thank you again.

        Kent in KC

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jbark76" <jbark76@...> wrote:
        >
        > I agree the hopper is Ulrich. The floor and underframe look Athearn (possibly Globe). The gondola sides and ends look like Roundhouse. I suspect someone was trying to replace a missing floor with the Athearn parts.
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14028 From: bob d Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        I've never seen a Lionel HO engine or any rolling stock up close and personal in my 50 years in the hobby.(I must have spent my time in a cave.) Maybe I have seen them and just didn't realize it. How is the detail, and more importantly, how well do these run, when compared with other like models? Seem to be a large number on eBay lately and I've been passing them up when maybe I should have been bidding.

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <bobgrapes25@...> wrote:
        >
        > Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14029 From: John Barlow Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        Bob,
         
        My one Lionel HO piece as a kid was a repackaged Athearn Hustler. Years later I found
        a Lionel HO FA...with EMD truck frames as it was released. Worth is up to you as to a line.
         
        John
         
        *******************************************************************************************************
        --- On Sat, 5/8/10, bob d <fishntrains@...> wrote:

        From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lionel HO trains
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 11:20 AM

         
        I've never seen a Lionel HO engine or any rolling stock up close and personal in my 50 years in the hobby.(I must have spent my time in a cave.) Maybe I have seen them and just didn't realize it. How is the detail, and more importantly, how well do these run, when compared with other like models? Seem to be a large number on eBay lately and I've been passing them up when maybe I should have been bidding.

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Robert" <bobgrapes25@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        >


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14030 From: jim heckard Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        Bob
         
            If you want to see pictures of some Lionel HO go to    www.hoseeker.net   Click on Gallery. Find Lionel listing under "Other Trains". Go to page 8 for Lionel steam, page 9 for Diesels and Passenger cars. I believe there is freight cars too. Will give you a little idea of Lionel HO.
         
                                                                                 Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: bob d
        Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 1:20 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lionel HO trains

         

        I've never seen a Lionel HO engine or any rolling stock up close and personal in my 50 years in the hobby.(I must have spent my time in a cave.) Maybe I have seen them and just didn't realize it. How is the detail, and more importantly, how well do these run, when compared with other like models? Seem to be a large number on eBay lately and I've been passing them up when maybe I should have been bidding.

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Robert" <bobgrapes25@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        >

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14031 From: bob d Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        John, if you were to compare Lionel HO equipment to a more modern, and well known, manufacturer, who would it compare....Athearn, Bachman, Atlas, Kato, or some other? I'm referring to quality, detail, and operation. Do they run well? As far as detail, many of my trains have had detail(s) added, ie., grab irons, cut bars, windshield wipers and such. My trains, save a few shelf queens, are run on my layout. They have to "earn" their keep. Even the old "amp hog" Athearn Hi-Fi's.

        As I mentioned, I don't know that I have ever seen a Lionel HO model. And this comes from someone that's been a model railroader for over 50 years. Of course, I may have seen one but not aware of the fact.

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
        >
        > Bob,
        >  
        > My one Lionel HO piece as a kid was a repackaged Athearn Hustler. Years later I found
        > a Lionel HO FA...with EMD truck frames as it was released. Worth is up to you as to a line.
        >  
        > John
        >  
        > *******************************************************************************************************
        > --- On Sat, 5/8/10, bob d <fishntrains@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
        > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lionel HO trains
        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 11:20 AM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > I've never seen a Lionel HO engine or any rolling stock up close and personal in my 50 years in the hobby.(I must have spent my time in a cave.) Maybe I have seen them and just didn't realize it. How is the detail, and more importantly, how well do these run, when compared with other like models? Seem to be a large number on eBay lately and I've been passing them up when maybe I should have been bidding.
        >
        > Bob
        >
        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Robert" <bobgrapes25@ ...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        > >
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14032 From: Robert Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Lionel HO
        When I was young, I had a Lionel HO flat car with a container labeled radioactive waste. It was lighted and bright red! Does anyone remember when this HO freight car was released? Is it a collector's item?
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14033 From: John Barlow Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO
        The possible year of release might be akin to year Lionel released the same car design on O/O-27. I don't remember Lionel HO catalogs as separate items but may be in the back pages of the O/O-27 catalogs.
         
        John 
         
         
        --- On Sat, 5/8/10, Robert <bobgrapes25@...> wrote:

        From: Robert <bobgrapes25@...>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Lionel HO
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 11:55 AM

         
        When I was young, I had a Lionel HO flat car with a container labeled radioactive waste. It was lighted and bright red! Does anyone remember when this HO freight car was released? Is it a collector's item?


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14034 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        On 5/8/2010 12:20 PM, bob d wrote:
        > I've never seen a Lionel HO engine or any rolling stock up close and
        > personal in my 50 years in the hobby.(I must have spent my time in a
        > cave.) Maybe I have seen them and just didn't realize it. How is the
        > detail, and more importantly, how well do these run, when compared
        > with other like models? Seem to be a large number on eBay lately and
        > I've been passing them up when maybe I should have been bidding.

        About 6 months ago when I was out of work and trying to make ends
        meet I sold a Lionel 4 wheel Hustler on eBay, which I had in my stash of
        stuff for decades. Don't recall how I came by it; probably with a baych
        of stuff I purchased somewhere. It was painted for the Air Force. IIRC
        it sold for more than $60 or $70, so there is some demand for items such
        as these among Lionel collectors.

        --

        Rick Jones

        Those who jump off a Parisian bridge are in Seine.
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14035 From: rcjge Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Athearn 1950's round roof box car parts?
        Hi Fella's:

        Does anyone have some parts for one of these "Round Roofer" box cars? I need a piece for an unbuilt 40' CNR version I just picked up. On either end the draft gear box has two diagonal arms. On one of mine one of these diagonal arms is missing. I have to carefully inventory the parts to see if anything is missing. Problem is I don't know the 50's Athearn models, though based on this kit I can see getting excited some by it!

        in box #2 cutaway bottom right, the item the sill step attaches to, the assembly that also holds the draft spring, that's the piece I need.

        http://hoseeker.net/athearninstructionscars1950/athearn4050roundroofaarboxcar1950.jpg


        Thanks,
        Gareth
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14036 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        In the mid-70's Lionel made the Freedom Train--the GS-4 loco was later
        produced by Bachmann. Lionel also made a GP-30 in that time frame--both
        engines had the 3-pole "pancake" motor which didn't lend itself to
        replacement.gj
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 7:38 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lionel HO trains


        > Hi Robert,
        >
        > As a non-Lionel specialist, I'll venture a try to expand briefly. At
        > first, in the mid 1950's, Lionel sold esentially what were "re-badged"
        > Rivarossi and then Athearn HO models, though with different markings
        > usually including the Lionel "L". Lionel contracted with Athearn for new
        > models such as the "Virginian rectifier" electric locomotive <which I
        > believe Athearn breifly sold as their own, too>. Lionel then designed
        > their own models, such as their Husky and GE 44 ton center cab switcher
        > and also acquired some of the dies from John English's HObbyline and
        > reworked those, actually manufacturing HO models themselves.
        >
        > So you might find what seems to be earlier Rivarossi and Athearn items
        > labled "Lionel," geared "Athean Hustlers" - actually "Lionel Husky's"
        > missing the bottom plate with Lionel ID, and steam and Alco FA A unit
        > locomotives looking like HObbyline, but being Lionel as well.
        >
        > Decades later, Lionel re-entered the HO market with items manufactured by
        > Bachmann, but that is out of our time frame here.
        >
        > A very informative book on Lionel HO, worth seeking out is the Greenburg
        > Guide to Lionel HO, which I believe is out of print, but can be found. A
        > check through our archives and albums here, plus eBay's Lionel HO listings
        > might help you become familiar with some of their models, too.
        >
        > W Jay W.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <bobgrapes25@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14037 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        two "action cars" that I have from the fifties (?) are the exploding boxcar
        and the milk car. I had ideas of re-working the exploding car so that a
        rough coupling impact would set it off, rather than a missile strike. gj
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "bob d" <fishntrains@...>
        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 10:20 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lionel HO trains


        > I've never seen a Lionel HO engine or any rolling stock up close and
        > personal in my 50 years in the hobby.(I must have spent my time in a
        > cave.) Maybe I have seen them and just didn't realize it. How is the
        > detail, and more importantly, how well do these run, when compared with
        > other like models? Seem to be a large number on eBay lately and I've been
        > passing them up when maybe I should have been bidding.
        >
        > Bob
        >
        > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <bobgrapes25@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14038 From: bcerestrains Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Lionel HO 0805 Seaboard Radioactive Car
        Dear Robert:

        The seaboard radioactive car was made from 1959 to at least 1963. The car is collectible and in mint-in-box condition would sell for $35 or so.

        Lionel as noted by others had three stints in the HO gauge offering. The first and most collectible was from 1957 - 1966, the second from 1974 - 1977 and lastly the more recent high end trains from earlier this decade. The first period and only one that I collect, were generally poor runners and are more or less simply collector pieces. In fact, strictly from a "plastic" gauge piece, Lionel HO remains the most collectible of all the 1950's - 1960's items. Probably the best runners were from the first year when Rivarossi made the pieces for Lionel.

        Regards,
        Bruce
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14039 From: jcashook Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Which Kadee type coupler for Penn Line D-2 Midget switcher?
        I have a Penn Line D-2 Midget diesel switcher with larger diameter wheels that I would like to use as an industrial switcher. Can anyone suggest a Kadee or KD compatible coupler to use?

        Thanks,
        Jay Cashook
        Westwood, MA
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14040 From: Wobbly913 Date: 5/8/2010
        Subject: Re: Which Kadee type coupler for Penn Line D-2 Midget switcher?
        According to the KD site    http://www.kadee.com/conv/pnline1.htm
        It would be a number 38. The site gives instructions on how its done.

        Wobbly913

        --- On Sat, 5/8/10, jcashook <jcashook@...> wrote:

        From: jcashook <jcashook@...>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Which Kadee type coupler for Penn Line D-2 Midget switcher?
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, May 8, 2010, 6:04 PM

        I have a Penn Line D-2 Midget diesel switcher with larger diameter wheels that I would like to use as an industrial switcher.  Can anyone suggest a Kadee or KD compatible coupler to use?

        Thanks,
        Jay Cashook
        Westwood, MA




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        Group: vintageHO Message: 14041 From: RalphB Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO trains
        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Bob wrote:
        >
        > I've never seen a Lionel HO engine....

        Did Lionel make HO train equipment for a few years?
        ---------------------
        I have a Lionel GE U18B; it's not exceptional, but, until the recent release of the same unit by Intermountain, it was the only available model of that particular unit for over 30 years. Since most, if not all HO locomotives now come equipped for DCC, I'll stick with my DC-only Lionel unit.

        Ralph B
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14042 From: ron plyler Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Which Kadee type coupler for Penn Line D-2 Midget switcher?
        Number 38.
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14043 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Re: Athearn 1950's round roof box car parts?
        Hi Gareth,
         
        Yes, those round-roof Athearn metal box cars are attractive.  My favorite is a Seaboard one I resurrrected from parts.  Bowser acquired the metal line from Menzies, after he bought it from Athearn. When I can't wait to find a donor parts car, I have ordered parts from Bowser though my brick and mortar dealer.  As far as I know, they have not discontinued the Athearn metal line parts yet.  Here is the parts page link and then you can check the part number for availability on Bowser's master inventory/price page.:
         
         
        W Jay W.


        From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, May 8, 2010 6:16:14 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn 1950's round roof box car parts?

         

        Hi Fella's:

        Does anyone have some parts for one of these "Round Roofer" box cars? I need a piece for an unbuilt 40' CNR version I just picked up. On either end the draft gear box has two diagonal arms. On one of mine one of these diagonal arms is missing. I have to carefully inventory the parts to see if anything is missing. Problem is I don't know the 50's Athearn models, though based on this kit I can see getting excited some by it!

        in box #2 cutaway bottom right, the item the sill step attaches to, the assembly that also holds the draft spring, that's the piece I need.

        http://hoseeker. net/athearninstr uctionscars1950/ athearn4050round roofaarboxcar195 0.jpg

        Thanks,
        Gareth


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14044 From: pmonti Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Lionel HO

        I have been collecting Lionel HO for over 30 years now, it is good stuff and can be worth a lot. Greenberg has published two books on Lionel HO, one covers 1974-1977 production and the second covers the 1957 to 1966 production (which  is the second release). When Greenberg first published the 1957 to 1966 production book prices on Lionel HO went thru the roof. One case in point is I brought the Take Me Along set which was a Lionel HO set in a briefcase. I paid 60.00 for it. I seen one sell on Ebay is poorer condition then mine for 3600.00.

         

        Please kept in mind that most of the engines Lionel  produce in HO were not great runner. The older production made 57 and 58 were made by Rivarossi and Athern ran ok. In late 59 Lionel took over production and the motors suffered from weak magnets until 1964 when Lionel redesign the motor and the drivers.   The Hustler is the exception, those ran great.

         

        Engines made in the 70’s suffer from cheap plastic which causes the wheels to fall off, this is especially true for the GS-4’s that they made. My advice for anyone who wants to run any Lionel HO engine is to put the shell on a Athern FA or GP9 frame. The GS-4’s can be put on a Browser frame.

         

        The cars on the other hand especially the action cars from the 60’s were made to last and still work fine (you might have to teak them a little). Lionel did use their own standard for couplers however called nipples up and nipples downs. Which meant instead of a hole in the center like most couplers have, Lionel had a pin that went up or down. Finding original coupler can be done but they are expense. I find Tyco coupler and a toothpick cut down works well.

         

        These are only a few examples of the History on Lionel HO. The history and collectors value really make it worth the while to study Lionel HO. Many know that there was a Canadian version of Lionel HO but few know there was also a Mexican version.

         

        I just wanted to see if I could tweak some interest.

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14045 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: winning bidder
        W Jay W, Chris B , All
         
                 I have just won the missing engine needed to complete my vintage Dallas Model Craft collection including all versions. Thanks to seller mrhobbytown I won the powered DMC FT "A" unit I was missing.  Item 300423425543  DMC FT with metal sides.
         
            I can see it has the original flywheel power unit with all the original truck side frames. Hopefully only a little cleaning and lubrication needed. Body all looks original and a little stripping of old paint and the engine will be almost as good as new. My only concern is that the screens on the top of the roof have not been drilled out.  Easy fix but better for me if not.
         
           Boy the price was right. A neat addition for my entire collection.
         
                                                         Jim H 
         
          
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14046 From: Chris B Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Re: winning bidder
        Jim,  Congratulations!

        I was following all of the auctions for cast diesel shells this seller mrhobbytown was offering, not to bid on, but I was hoping someone in the group would end up with at least one of them!

        I wonder what's the story behind how he got them, and if it lends any new info on DMC or the other early cast diesel makers.  If you correspond with him over  your purchase, perhaps something will come to light.  It would also be interensting to know if he's aware of the vintage HO group, or is he perhaps already a member?

        Chris B.




        From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, May 9, 2010 7:32:52 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] winning bidder

         

        W Jay W, Chris B , All
         
                 I have just won the missing engine needed to complete my vintage Dallas Model Craft collection including all versions. Thanks to seller mrhobbytown I won the powered DMC FT "A" unit I was missing.  Item 300423425543  DMC FT with metal sides.
         
            I can see it has the original flywheel power unit with all the original truck side frames. Hopefully only a little cleaning and lubrication needed. Body all looks original and a little stripping of old paint and the engine will be almost as good as new. My only concern is that the screens on the top of the roof have not been drilled out.  Easy fix but better for me if not.
         
           Boy the price was right. A neat addition for my entire collection.
         
                                                         Jim H 
         
          

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14047 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Re: winning bidder
        
        Chris B, All,
         
               The only item I needed for my collection that he was selling was the DMC FT A unit. I already was lucky to  have a boxed near mint Pittman Bride and Groom, One Mantua Talgo train ( to poor to have more), the DMC E-7's, the early Walter's switchers, the Garco like FT shells. Still the seller has had some hard to find, rare pieces in this and a previous auction if you happen to be a collector.
         
           I hope to find out who he is. Since it was Pay Pal I had a friend bid and already make payment to send the item directly to me. I have to ask my friend if he got the sellers name. If not when the package comes I'll know his name. His description mentions his vintage collection and I would like to talk to him about any info he could provide.. I have a hunch he is a member of a Yahoo group or at least monitors somehow.
         
                                             Jim H
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Chris B
        Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 7:46 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] winning bidder

         

        Jim,  Congratulations!

        I was following all of the auctions for cast diesel shells this seller mrhobbytown was offering, not to bid on, but I was hoping someone in the group would end up with at least one of them!

        I wonder what's the story behind how he got them, and if it lends any new info on DMC or the other early cast diesel makers.  If you correspond with him over  your purchase, perhaps something will come to light.  It would also be interensting to know if he's aware of the vintage HO group, or is he perhaps already a member?

        Chris B.




        From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Sun, May 9, 2010 7:32:52 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] winning bidder

         

        W Jay W, Chris B , All
         
                 I have just won the missing engine needed to complete my vintage Dallas Model Craft collection including all versions. Thanks to seller mrhobbytown I won the powered DMC FT "A" unit I was missing.  Item 300423425543  DMC FT with metal sides.
         
            I can see it has the original flywheel power unit with all the original truck side frames. Hopefully only a little cleaning and lubrication needed. Body all looks original and a little stripping of old paint and the engine will be almost as good as new. My only concern is that the screens on the top of the roof have not been drilled out.  Easy fix but better for me if not.
         
           Boy the price was right. A neat addition for my entire collection.
         
                                                         Jim H 
         
          

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14048 From: jim heckard Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO
                   Okay you peaked my interest on one paragraph where you talked about the Lionel GS-4 and "bad" plastic making the wheels fall off. I assume you mean the drivers.
         
            I don't have the Lionel GS-4 but have a number of the first run Bachmann engines (12 ) from the 70's including the Daylight GS-4, War Baby GS-4, N&W "J",  4-8-4 Niagara, plus other 4-8-4's, 2-10-4, 2-8-0's, 2-8-2's. Not the best running but some nice paint jobs.
         
            Assuming they are constructed like the Lionel GS-4  as far as the plastic axles I believe you will find it was the 3 piece axle that was the culprit and not the plastic itself. The axle had male / female joints that were glued. The glue dried out and the axle/ driver could turn out of sync causing the drive mechanism to jam.
         
            Although Bachmann would replace the whole set of drivers with valve gear over time it would happen again. I found no glue that would hold them especially keeping them quartered while drying.
         
            My solution was to very carefully drill a small hole centered in the axle while all drivers were again quartered that would go through one part into the other part and then glue a fine wire /pin in the hole .
         
            While the Bachmann first run steam are not the best I have had no problem with any jamming since although I don't run them full time.They are more for my vintage collection. My thoughts about a solution.
         
                                                            Jim H
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: pmonti
        Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:37 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Lionel HO

         

        I have been collecting Lionel HO for over 30 years now, it is good stuff and can be worth a lot. Greenberg has published two books on Lionel HO, one covers 1974-1977 production and the second covers the 1957 to 1966 production (which  is the second release). When Greenberg first published the 1957 to 1966 production book prices on Lionel HO went thru the roof. One case in point is I brought the Take Me Along set which was a Lionel HO set in a briefcase. I paid 60.00 for it. I seen one sell on Ebay is poorer condition then mine for 3600.00.

        Please kept in mind that most of the engines Lionel  produce in HO were not great runner. The older production made 57 and 58 were made by Rivarossi and Athern ran ok. In late 59 Lionel took over production and the motors suffered from weak magnets until 1964 when Lionel redesign the motor and the drivers.   The Hustler is the exception, those ran great.

        Engines made in the 70Â’s suffer from cheap plastic which causes the wheels to fall off, this is especially true for the GS-4Â’s that they made. My advice for anyone who wants to run any Lionel HO engine is to put the shell on a Athern FA or GP9 frame. The GS-4Â’s can be put on a Browser frame.

        The cars on the other hand especially the action cars from the 60Â’s were made to last and still work fine (you might have to teak them a little). Lionel did use their own standard for couplers however called nipples up and nipples downs. Which meant instead of a hole in the center like most couplers have, Lionel had a pin that went up or down. Finding original coupler can be done but they are expense. I find Tyco coupler and a toothpick cut down works well.

        These are only a few examples of the History on Lionel HO. The history and collectors value really make it worth the while to study Lionel HO. Many know that there was a Canadian version of Lionel HO but few know there was also a Mexican version.

        I just wanted to see if I could tweak some interest.

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14049 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO
        There is an interesting History on Lionel at this website that J. Scott Geare has put together.  Although ,it does not necessarily pertain strictly to HO Lionel it does give interesting insights as to why Lionel Corporation was sold and how it is making a come back.  It is interesting reading and give one something to think about.  As a model railroader and publisher he offers a unique perspective on Lionel.  He also has some great deals on other rolling stock if one is interested.  I have made quite a few purchases from him and his stuff is top notch.  Scroll down to about half the page and you will find the article on Lionel.
         
         
        Thanks Paul


        --- On Sun, 5/9/10, pmonti <pmontag1@...> wrote:

        From: pmonti <pmontag1@...>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Lionel HO
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 10:37 AM

         

        I have been collecting Lionel HO for over 30 years now, it is good stuff and can be worth a lot. Greenberg has published two books on Lionel HO, one covers 1974-1977 production and the second covers the 1957 to 1966 production (which  is the second release). When Greenberg first published the 1957 to 1966 production book prices on Lionel HO went thru the roof. One case in point is I brought the Take Me Along set which was a Lionel HO set in a briefcase. I paid 60.00 for it. I seen one sell on Ebay is poorer condition then mine for 3600.00.

         

        Please kept in mind that most of the engines Lionel  produce in HO were not great runner. The older production made 57 and 58 were made by Rivarossi and Athern ran ok. In late 59 Lionel took over production and the motors suffered from weak magnets until 1964 when Lionel redesign the motor and the drivers.   The Hustler is the exception, those ran great.

         

        Engines made in the 70’s suffer from cheap plastic which causes the wheels to fall off, this is especially true for the GS-4’s that they made. My advice for anyone who wants to run any Lionel HO engine is to put the shell on a Athern FA or GP9 frame. The GS-4’s can be put on a Browser frame.

         

        The cars on the other hand especially the action cars from the 60’s were made to last and still work fine (you might have to teak them a little). Lionel did use their own standard for couplers however called nipples up and nipples downs. Which meant instead of a hole in the center like most couplers have, Lionel had a pin that went up or down. Finding original coupler can be done but they are expense. I find Tyco coupler and a toothpick cut down works well.

         

        These are only a few examples of the History on Lionel HO. The history and collectors value really make it worth the while to study Lionel HO. Many know that there was a Canadian version of Lionel HO but few know there was also a Mexican version.

         

        I just wanted to see if I could tweak some interest.


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14050 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Re: Lionel HO
        I have 3 GS-4 Lionel engines.  WP, SP and Bicentennial.  No problems.  I run them alot and have never had the wheels fall off.  I have a diesel Bicentennial and the wheels fall out of it quite easily if it is not handled with care.  I have never figured out why.  So it just sits in the box.
         
        I do have a bachmann Niagra that I need a set of drivers for.  Due to bad casting or something, the axle sheared off.  Engine ran perfect but one day one of the hind wheels fell out and I looked and the axle had broken. 
         
        Paul

        --- On Sun, 5/9/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

        From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Lionel HO
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, May 9, 2010, 7:29 PM

         
                   Okay you peaked my interest on one paragraph where you talked about the Lionel GS-4 and "bad" plastic making the wheels fall off. I assume you mean the drivers.
         
            I don't have the Lionel GS-4 but have a number of the first run Bachmann engines (12 ) from the 70's including the Daylight GS-4, War Baby GS-4, N&W "J",  4-8-4 Niagara, plus other 4-8-4's, 2-10-4, 2-8-0's, 2-8-2's. Not the best running but some nice paint jobs.
         
            Assuming they are constructed like the Lionel GS-4  as far as the plastic axles I believe you will find it was the 3 piece axle that was the culprit and not the plastic itself. The axle had male / female joints that were glued. The glue dried out and the axle/ driver could turn out of sync causing the drive mechanism to jam.
         
            Although Bachmann would replace the whole set of drivers with valve gear over time it would happen again. I found no glue that would hold them especially keeping them quartered while drying.
         
            My solution was to very carefully drill a small hole centered in the axle while all drivers were again quartered that would go through one part into the other part and then glue a fine wire /pin in the hole .
         
            While the Bachmann first run steam are not the best I have had no problem with any jamming since although I don't run them full time.They are more for my vintage collection. My thoughts about a solution.
         
                                                            Jim H
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: pmonti
        Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:37 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Lionel HO

         

        I have been collecting Lionel HO for over 30 years now, it is good stuff and can be worth a lot. Greenberg has published two books on Lionel HO, one covers 1974-1977 production and the second covers the 1957 to 1966 production (which  is the second release). When Greenberg first published the 1957 to 1966 production book prices on Lionel HO went thru the roof. One case in point is I brought the Take Me Along set which was a Lionel HO set in a briefcase. I paid 60.00 for it. I seen one sell on Ebay is poorer condition then mine for 3600.00.

        Please kept in mind that most of the engines Lionel  produce in HO were not great runner. The older production made 57 and 58 were made by Rivarossi and Athern ran ok. In late 59 Lionel took over production and the motors suffered from weak magnets until 1964 when Lionel redesign the motor and the drivers.   The Hustler is the exception, those ran great.

        Engines made in the 70’s suffer from cheap plastic which causes the wheels to fall off, this is especially true for the GS-4’s that they made. My advice for anyone who wants to run any Lionel HO engine is to put the shell on a Athern FA or GP9 frame. The GS-4’s can be put on a Browser frame.

        The cars on the other hand especially the action cars from the 60’s were made to last and still work fine (you might have to teak them a little). Lionel did use their own standard for couplers however called nipples up and nipples downs. Which meant instead of a hole in the center like most couplers have, Lionel had a pin that went up or down. Finding original coupler can be done but they are expense. I find Tyco coupler and a toothpick cut down works well.

        These are only a few examples of the History on Lionel HO. The history and collectors value really make it worth the while to study Lionel HO. Many know that there was a Canadian version of Lionel HO but few know there was also a Mexican version.

        I just wanted to see if I could tweak some interest.


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14051 From: Carl Neste Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Need Ambroid Kit Instructions
        Do any of you folks have a copy of the assembly instructions for an Ambroid 1 of 5000 #7 Matheson Dry Ice Car? I discovered a week ago that my kit has instructions for AAR convertible stock car.
        Carl
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14052 From: Phillip M Date: 5/9/2010
        Subject: Lionel HO
        I like your idea especially if it works. I once tried something similar. My idea was to replace the whole axle. I cut off the existing axle and was going to drill a hole in each wheel and replace the axle with a cut down O Gauge track pin. The problem I ran into was drilling the hole dead straight, the drill bit kept sipping.

        I have had some luck with an epoxy called JBWeld available in the Walmart automotive department.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
        >
        > Okay you peaked my interest on one paragraph where you talked about the Lionel GS-4 and "bad" plastic making the wheels fall off. I assume you mean the drivers.
        >
        > I don't have the Lionel GS-4 but have a number of the first run Bachmann engines (12 ) from the 70's including the Daylight GS-4, War Baby GS-4, N&W "J", 4-8-4 Niagara, plus other 4-8-4's, 2-10-4, 2-8-0's, 2-8-2's. Not the best running but some nice paint jobs.
        >
        > Assuming they are constructed like the Lionel GS-4 as far as the plastic axles I believe you will find it was the 3 piece axle that was the culprit and not the plastic itself. The axle had male / female joints that were glued. The glue dried out and the axle/ driver could turn out of sync causing the drive mechanism to jam.
        >
        > Although Bachmann would replace the whole set of drivers with valve gear over time it would happen again. I found no glue that would hold them especially keeping them quartered while drying.
        >
        > My solution was to very carefully drill a small hole centered in the axle while all drivers were again quartered that would go through one part into the other part and then glue a fine wire /pin in the hole .
        >
        > While the Bachmann first run steam are not the best I have had no problem with any jamming since although I don't run them full time.They are more for my vintage collection. My thoughts about a solution.
        >
        > Jim H
        >
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14053 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/10/2010
        Subject: Re: winning bidder
        Hi Jim H.,

        Very glad to see you won this - It is great when we can each add signifigant items we have been looking for for some time to our collections. When you receive it, I am curious to know if Dallas used the same nose casting for the FT's that was used on their E units.

        I skipped bidding on any of the recent FT's and other units that Mr. hobbytown had listed these past two times as I was sucessful about ten days ago at getting a very long sought after item - and one not seen in eight or nine years of looking at that manufacturer's items on eBay and at shows. Report and photos to follow.

        W Jay W.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
        >
        > W Jay W, Chris B , All
        >
        > I have just won the missing engine needed to complete my vintage Dallas Model Craft collection including all versions. Thanks to seller mrhobbytown I won the powered DMC FT "A" unit I was missing. Item 300423425543 DMC FT with metal sides.
        >
        > I can see it has the original flywheel power unit with all the original truck side frames. Hopefully only a little cleaning and lubrication needed. Body all looks original and a little stripping of old paint and the engine will be almost as good as new. My only concern is that the screens on the top of the roof have not been drilled out. Easy fix but better for me if not.
        >
        > Boy the price was right. A neat addition for my entire collection.
        >
        > Jim H
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14054 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/10/2010
        Subject: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947
        Hi Jim H., All,
         
        When I began searching on eBay about nine years ago, it was mainly to locate the various PRR Boxcab Electric Locomotives from Trackside Specialties and to find various Red Ball kits.  In my first year, I found a Trackside Specialties B-1 switcher and lost out on a P-5A and began building my substantial collection of Red Ball as well.  I was not aware that Red Ball even had locomotives in their line, but eventually learned of the sheet brass and die-cast Linotype metal ALCO RS-3 they cataloged and sold circa 1951. It took until this past winter to finally find my Trackside Specialties P5-A.
             
        It was not until about six or seven years ago, when I bought a copy of Red Ball catalog No. 4 issued in 1947 that I was aware that Red Ball's first locomotive manufactured during founder M. Dale Newton's period of ownership was an EMC SW-1.  I immediately set out to look for one as besides fitting into my vintage locomotive collection, both railroads I extensively modeled used them - Erie had one and Lackawanna had 10 or 11 of the little 660 hp switchers. The RB Catalog No. 4 illustration below is courtesy of HO Seeker. 
         
        To date, I have never seen the model on eBay listed as Red Ball, though I suppose I could have missed it in my early eBay days.  Later, I was beginning to wonder if this model was ever manufactured at all. 
         
        Finally, about two weeks ago, I spotted this beauty on eBay, mis-identified as being possibly by Cary, with Lindsay power truck. Cary manufactured a cast white metal EMD SW-1500 switcher, a substantially larger and more modern locomotive, in the 1970's that was continued in the Bowser line, later in die-cast Zamac I believe. 
         
        I just received my model today and the detail is amazing, and not for just the late 1940's, either.  The hood sides and top, cab walls and frame, steps, ect. are all individual castings that have been very neatly assembled - soldered - by the builder.  The floor appears to be 1/16" thick sheet brass, and the cab roof is formed and shaped brass shim stock.  The interior cab walls I can easilly see exhibit the teltale evidence of the unique Red Ball casting runners and circular cut off saw marks.
         
        In the photos below, notice how the individual cab window frames, and not just the divider are cast.  The Lindsay and Varney NW-2 lack all detailing here.  The model was first sold unpowered, but later was sold with the Lindsay power truck.
         
        Other similar cast metal EMC/EMD switchers:  In the late 1940's Lindsay had the similar looking, but larger 1000 hp EMD NW- 2, advertised as cast by the lost wax process in brass - later marketed by Kemtron and PFM.  As described in the Varney Guide, Varney receive permission from Lindsay to copy the NW-2 in the excellent 
        die-cast Zamac version many of us are familiar with and that was sold well into the 1960's. Side by side, the differences between the Red Ball SW-1 and Varney NW-2 are substantial, besides the ove vs. two stacks.  In vintage formed sheet metal models, Super Scale had two similar models in the 1940's, an SW-1 and larger NW-1 or 2?, -- see Jim H's album for photos. 
         
        After mention in two 1947 Red Ball newsletters and the No. 4 Catalog, the model seems to have been dropped.  Does anyone know the reasons or have more information about this very scarce - in my opinion - model?  Or can anyone furnish a copy of the assembly sheet?  I will add the handrails per prototype, but wanted to see what Newton showed.  No doubt, he got that right, too.
         
        W. Jay W.
         
         
         
         

          @@attachment@@
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14055 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/10/2010
        Subject: Additional Re: The Red Ball EMC SW-1 Switcher from 1947
        Hi Jim H. and All,

        Forgot to add that the brass tanks shown in the photo are by Lindsay -I do not know if Red Ball featured any, or if the builder did an upgrade. Also, the photos are courtesty of the sales listing by Mr. Richard G. Narin, "Mr. Hobbytown" on eBay.

        W Jay W.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Jim H., All,
        >
        > When I began searching on eBay about nine years ago, it was mainly to locate the various PRR Boxcab Electric Locomotives from Trackside Specialties and to find various Red Ball kits.  In my first year, I found a Trackside Specialties B-1 switcher and lost out on a P-5A and began building my substantial collection of Red Ball as well.  I was not aware that Red Ball even had locomotives in their line, but eventually learned of the sheet brass and die-cast Linotype metal ALCO RS-3 they cataloged and sold circa 1951. It took until this past winter to finally find my Trackside Specialties P5-A.
        >      
        > It was not until about six or seven years ago, when I bought a copy of Red Ball catalog No. 4 issued in 1947 that I was aware that Red Ball's first locomotive manufactured during founder M. Dale Newton's period of ownership was an EMC SW-1.  I immediately set out to look for one as besides fitting into my vintage locomotive collection, both railroads I extensively modeled used them - Erie had one and Lackawanna had 10 or 11 of the little 660 hp switchers. The RB Catalog No. 4 illustration below is courtesy of HO Seeker. 
        >
        > To date, I have never seen the model on eBay listed as Red Ball, though I suppose I could have missed it in my early eBay days.  Later, I was beginning to wonder if this model was ever manufactured at all. 
        >
        > Finally, about two weeks ago, I spotted this beauty on eBay, mis-identified as being possibly by Cary, with Lindsay power truck. Cary manufactured a cast white metal EMD SW-1500 switcher, a substantially larger and more modern locomotive, in the 1970's that was continued in the Bowser line, later in die-cast Zamac I believe. 
        >
        > I just received my model today and the detail is amazing, and not for just the late 1940's, either.  The hood sides and top, cab walls and frame, steps, ect. are all individual castings that have been very neatly assembled - soldered - by the builder.  The floor appears to be 1/16" thick sheet brass, and the cab roof is formed and shaped brass shim stock.  The interior cab walls I can easilly see exhibit the teltale evidence of the unique Red Ball casting runners and circular cut off saw marks.
        >
        > In the photos below, notice how the individual cab window frames, and not just the divider are cast.  The Lindsay and Varney NW-2 lack all detailing here.  The model was first sold unpowered, but later was sold with the Lindsay power truck.
        >
        > Other similar cast metal EMC/EMD switchers:  In the late 1940's Lindsay had the similar looking, but larger 1000 hp EMD NW- 2, advertised as cast by the lost wax process in brass - later marketed by Kemtron and PFM.  As described in the Varney Guide, Varney receive permission from Lindsay to copy the NW-2 in the excellent 
        > die-cast Zamac version many of us are familiar with and that was sold well into the 1960's. Side by side, the differences between the Red Ball SW-1 and Varney NW-2 are substantial, besides the ove vs. two stacks.  In vintage formed sheet metal models, Super Scale had two similar models in the 1940's, an SW-1 and larger NW-1 or 2?, -- see Jim H's album for photos. 
        >
        > After mention in two 1947 Red Ball newsletters and the No. 4 Catalog, the model seems to have been dropped.  Does anyone know the reasons or have more information about this very scarce - in my opinion - model?  Or can anyone furnish a copy of the assembly sheet?  I will add the handrails per prototype, but wanted to see what Newton showed.  No doubt, he got that right, too.
        >
        > W. Jay W.
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14056 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/10/2010
        Subject: Lionel HO
        Hi "pmonti"

        While I do not have any others except a couple of GE-44 ton Erie Lackawanna switchers, I can agree with you that those two do run fine with their Lionel Husky motors and geared drive. As far as other Lionel HO, besides an inoperative "Docksider-type" locomotive, I have an upowered Rivarossi Farbanks-Morse C-liner B-unit in very good shape lettered Wabash, plus a few Rivarossi-based freight cars in generally poor shape. When we were given the old set decades ago, we split it by flipped coins and my buddy got the powered Wabash A unit. I kid him that if he still has it, we can sell them both together and retire in comfort, LOL...

        Jay



        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "pmonti" <pmontag1@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have been collecting Lionel HO for over 30 years now, it is good stuff and
        > can be worth a lot. Greenberg has published two books on Lionel HO, one
        > covers 1974-1977 production and the second covers the 1957 to 1966
        > production (which is the second release). When Greenberg first published
        > the 1957 to 1966 production book prices on Lionel HO went thru the roof. One
        > case in point is I brought the Take Me Along set which was a Lionel HO set
        > in a briefcase. I paid 60.00 for it. I seen one sell on Ebay is poorer
        > condition then mine for 3600.00.
        >
        >
        >
        > Please kept in mind that most of the engines Lionel produce in HO were not
        > great runner. The older production made 57 and 58 were made by Rivarossi and
        > Athern ran ok. In late 59 Lionel took over production and the motors
        > suffered from weak magnets until 1964 when Lionel redesign the motor and the
        > drivers. The Hustler is the exception, those ran great.
        >
        >
        >
        > Engines made in the 70's suffer from cheap plastic which causes the wheels
        > to fall off, this is especially true for the GS-4's that they made. My
        > advice for anyone who wants to run any Lionel HO engine is to put the shell
        > on a Athern FA or GP9 frame. The GS-4's can be put on a Browser frame.
        >
        >
        >
        > The cars on the other hand especially the action cars from the 60's were
        > made to last and still work fine (you might have to teak them a little).
        > Lionel did use their own standard for couplers however called nipples up and
        > nipples downs. Which meant instead of a hole in the center like most
        > couplers have, Lionel had a pin that went up or down. Finding original
        > coupler can be done but they are expense. I find Tyco coupler and a
        > toothpick cut down works well.
        >
        >
        >
        > These are only a few examples of the History on Lionel HO. The history and
        > collectors value really make it worth the while to study Lionel HO. Many
        > know that there was a Canadian version of Lionel HO but few know there was
        > also a Mexican version.
        >
        >
        >
        > I just wanted to see if I could tweak some interest.
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14057 From: jim heckard Date: 5/10/2010
        Subject: Re: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947 [5 Attachments]
        W Jay W,
         
             Congratulations on your recent Red Ball find. I must admit I had not known much about this switcher. There is a picture of a beat up one on Page 64 of Lenahans Locomotive Lexicon Volume II. I did know of the Red Ball RS-3. I never really sought out the Red Ball engines but maybe I will have to expand the area of my collection. Something to look for.
         
           Sharp eyes to pick it out. I think I remember seeing the listing saying Cary. It does look to have sharp detail. It always amazes me how much is out there.
         
                                                             Jim H
         
                                                                                 
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 1:23 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947 [5 Attachments]

         

        Hi Jim H., All,
         
        When I began searching on eBay about nine years ago, it was mainly to locate the various PRR Boxcab Electric Locomotives from Trackside Specialties and to find various Red Ball kits.  In my first year, I found a Trackside Specialties B-1 switcher and lost out on a P-5A and began building my substantial collection of Red Ball as well.  I was not aware that Red Ball even had locomotives in their line, but eventually learned of the sheet brass and die-cast Linotype metal ALCO RS-3 they cataloged and sold circa 1951. It took until this past winter to finally find my Trackside Specialties P5-A.
             
        It was not until about six or seven years ago, when I bought a copy of Red Ball catalog No. 4 issued in 1947 that I was aware that Red Ball's first locomotive manufactured during founder M. Dale Newton's period of ownership was an EMC SW-1.  I immediately set out to look for one as besides fitting into my vintage locomotive collection, both railroads I extensively modeled used them - Erie had one and Lackawanna had 10 or 11 of the little 660 hp switchers. The RB Catalog No. 4 illustration below is courtesy of HO Seeker. 
         
        To date, I have never seen the model on eBay listed as Red Ball, though I suppose I could have missed it in my early eBay days.  Later, I was beginning to wonder if this model was ever manufactured at all. 
         
        Finally, about two weeks ago, I spotted this beauty on eBay, mis-identified as being possibly by Cary, with Lindsay power truck. Cary manufactured a cast white metal EMD SW-1500 switcher, a substantially larger and more modern locomotive, in the 1970's that was continued in the Bowser line, later in die-cast Zamac I believe. 
         
        I just received my model today and the detail is amazing, and not for just the late 1940's, either.  The hood sides and top, cab walls and frame, steps, ect. are all individual castings that have been very neatly assembled - soldered - by the builder.  The floor appears to be 1/16" thick sheet brass, and the cab roof is formed and shaped brass shim stock.  The interior cab walls I can easilly see exhibit the teltale evidence of the unique Red Ball casting runners and circular cut off saw marks.
         
        In the photos below, notice how the individual cab window frames, and not just the divider are cast.  The Lindsay and Varney NW-2 lack all detailing here.  The model was first sold unpowered, but later was sold with the Lindsay power truck.
         
        Other similar cast metal EMC/EMD switchers:  In the late 1940's Lindsay had the similar looking, but larger 1000 hp EMD NW- 2, advertised as cast by the lost wax process in brass - later marketed by Kemtron and PFM.  As described in the Varney Guide, Varney receive permission from Lindsay to copy the NW-2 in the excellent 
        die-cast Zamac version many of us are familiar with and that was sold well into the 1960's. Side by side, the differences between the Red Ball SW-1 and Varney NW-2 are substantial, besides the ove vs. two stacks.  In vintage formed sheet metal models, Super Scale had two similar models in the 1940's, an SW-1 and larger NW-1 or 2?, -- see Jim H's album for photos. 
         
        After mention in two 1947 Red Ball newsletters and the No. 4 Catalog, the model seems to have been dropped.  Does anyone know the reasons or have more information about this very scarce - in my opinion - model?  Or can anyone furnish a copy of the assembly sheet?  I will add the handrails per prototype, but wanted to see what Newton showed.  No doubt, he got that right, too.
         
        W. Jay W.
         
         
         
         

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14058 From: Chris B Date: 5/10/2010
        Subject: Re: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947
        W Jay W,

        I wanted to second the congratulations, and say thanks for the description of this rare unit. I do pay attention to these early cast diesels, but I'm just starting to learn about them from the past year in this group.  You and Jim both just wrote some pretty good text, both about this unit and the DMC FT. 

        Maybe some day there might be a place at HO Seeker for this type of short description of rare models, sort of a supplement to the original literature and the model photos?

        Chris B.



        From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, May 10, 2010 2:54:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947

         

        W Jay W,
         
             Congratulations on your recent Red Ball find. I must admit I had not known much about this switcher. There is a picture of a beat up one on Page 64 of Lenahans Locomotive Lexicon Volume II. I did know of the Red Ball RS-3. I never really sought out the Red Ball engines but maybe I will have to expand the area of my collection. Something to look for.
         
           Sharp eyes to pick it out. I think I remember seeing the listing saying Cary. It does look to have sharp detail. It always amazes me how much is out there.
         
                                                             Jim H
         
                                                                                 
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 1:23 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947 [5 Attachments]

         

        Hi Jim H., All,
         
        When I began searching on eBay about nine years ago, it was mainly to locate the various PRR Boxcab Electric Locomotives from Trackside Specialties and to find various Red Ball kits.  In my first year, I found a Trackside Specialties B-1 switcher and lost out on a P-5A and began building my substantial collection of Red Ball as well.  I was not aware that Red Ball even had locomotives in their line, but eventually learned of the sheet brass and die-cast Linotype metal ALCO RS-3 they cataloged and sold circa 1951. It took until this past winter to finally find my Trackside Specialties P5-A.
             
        It was not until about six or seven years ago, when I bought a copy of Red Ball catalog No. 4 issued in 1947 that I was aware that Red Ball's first locomotive manufactured during founder M. Dale Newton's period of ownership was an EMC SW-1.  I immediately set out to look for one as besides fitting into my vintage locomotive collection, both railroads I extensively modeled used them - Erie had one and Lackawanna had 10 or 11 of the little 660 hp switchers. The RB Catalog No. 4 illustration below is courtesy of HO Seeker. 
         
        To date, I have never seen the model on eBay listed as Red Ball, though I suppose I could have missed it in my early eBay days.  Later, I was beginning to wonder if this model was ever manufactured at all. 
         
        Finally, about two weeks ago, I spotted this beauty on eBay, mis-identified as being possibly by Cary, with Lindsay power truck. Cary manufactured a cast white metal EMD SW-1500 switcher, a substantially larger and more modern locomotive, in the 1970's that was continued in the Bowser line, later in die-cast Zamac I believe. 
         
        I just received my model today and the detail is amazing, and not for just the late 1940's, either.  The hood sides and top, cab walls and frame, steps, ect. are all individual castings that have been very neatly assembled - soldered - by the builder.  The floor appears to be 1/16" thick sheet brass, and the cab roof is formed and shaped brass shim stock.  The interior cab walls I can easilly see exhibit the teltale evidence of the unique Red Ball casting runners and circular cut off saw marks.
         
        In the photos below, notice how the individual cab window frames, and not just the divider are cast.  The Lindsay and Varney NW-2 lack all detailing here.  The model was first sold unpowered, but later was sold with the Lindsay power truck.
         
        Other similar cast metal EMC/EMD switchers:  In the late 1940's Lindsay had the similar looking, but larger 1000 hp EMD NW- 2, advertised as cast by the lost wax process in brass - later marketed by Kemtron and PFM.  As described in the Varney Guide, Varney receive permission from Lindsay to copy the NW-2 in the excellent 
        die-cast Zamac version many of us are familiar with and that was sold well into the 1960's. Side by side, the differences between the Red Ball SW-1 and Varney NW-2 are substantial, besides the ove vs. two stacks.  In vintage formed sheet metal models, Super Scale had two similar models in the 1940's, an SW-1 and larger NW-1 or 2?, -- see Jim H's album for photos. 
         
        After mention in two 1947 Red Ball newsletters and the No. 4 Catalog, the model seems to have been dropped.  Does anyone know the reasons or have more information about this very scarce - in my opinion - model?  Or can anyone furnish a copy of the assembly sheet?  I will add the handrails per prototype, but wanted to see what Newton showed.  No doubt, he got that right, too.
         
        W. Jay W.
         
         
         
         


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14059 From: Roger Date: 5/10/2010
        Subject: Re: Need Ambroid Kit Instructions
        Hi Carl, I have the plan sheets for all the Ambroid cars.
        How can I send this plan sheet to you?
        Roger

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Neste" <cmneste@...> wrote:
        >
        > Do any of you folks have a copy of the assembly instructions for an Ambroid
        > 1 of 5000 #7 Matheson Dry Ice Car? I discovered a week ago that my kit has
        > instructions for AAR convertible stock car.
        > Carl
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14060 From: jim heckard Date: 5/10/2010
        Subject: Re: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947
        
        Chris B,
         
            I wanted to let you know that Larry Stevenson / ho seeker is already starting to add small descriptions to pictures in the Gallery section of his site to go along with the Literature section.. I know that roughly over 500 photos from my collection are in the process of that being done. Larry ask me to add it to the pictures and I think he will have anyone who places pictures to do the same. If the items are as little odder, rarer and harder to find then the description will be a little more informative plus a number of views. Check out Winton, Schrader, Stock, GARCO, Dallas Model Craft, Arden to name a few that are finished. That way others will have access to this extra information.
              However if the item is a little better known there still will be some description. Check Mantua. Eventually every picture will be done this way that I have sent.
         
                                                                            Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Chris B
        Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:00 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947

         

        W Jay W,

        I wanted to second the congratulations, and say thanks for the description of this rare unit. I do pay attention to these early cast diesels, but I'm just starting to learn about them from the past year in this group.  You and Jim both just wrote some pretty good text, both about this unit and the DMC FT. 

        Maybe some day there might be a place at HO Seeker for this type of short description of rare models, sort of a supplement to the original literature and the model photos?

        Chris B.



        From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Mon, May 10, 2010 2:54:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947

         

        W Jay W,
         
             Congratulations on your recent Red Ball find. I must admit I had not known much about this switcher. There is a picture of a beat up one on Page 64 of Lenahans Locomotive Lexicon Volume II. I did know of the Red Ball RS-3. I never really sought out the Red Ball engines but maybe I will have to expand the area of my collection. Something to look for.
         
           Sharp eyes to pick it out. I think I remember seeing the listing saying Cary. It does look to have sharp detail. It always amazes me how much is out there.
         
                                                             Jim H
         
                                                                                 
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 1:23 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947 [5 Attachments]

         

        Hi Jim H., All,
         
        When I began searching on eBay about nine years ago, it was mainly to locate the various PRR Boxcab Electric Locomotives from Trackside Specialties and to find various Red Ball kits.  In my first year, I found a Trackside Specialties B-1 switcher and lost out on a P-5A and began building my substantial collection of Red Ball as well.  I was not aware that Red Ball even had locomotives in their line, but eventually learned of the sheet brass and die-cast Linotype metal ALCO RS-3 they cataloged and sold circa 1951. It took until this past winter to finally find my Trackside Specialties P5-A.
             
        It was not until about six or seven years ago, when I bought a copy of Red Ball catalog No. 4 issued in 1947 that I was aware that Red Ball's first locomotive manufactured during founder M. Dale Newton's period of ownership was an EMC SW-1.  I immediately set out to look for one as besides fitting into my vintage locomotive collection, both railroads I extensively modeled used them - Erie had one and Lackawanna had 10 or 11 of the little 660 hp switchers. The RB Catalog No. 4 illustration below is courtesy of HO Seeker. 
         
        To date, I have never seen the model on eBay listed as Red Ball, though I suppose I could have missed it in my early eBay days.  Later, I was beginning to wonder if this model was ever manufactured at all. 
         
        Finally, about two weeks ago, I spotted this beauty on eBay, mis-identified as being possibly by Cary, with Lindsay power truck. Cary manufactured a cast white metal EMD SW-1500 switcher, a substantially larger and more modern locomotive, in the 1970's that was continued in the Bowser line, later in die-cast Zamac I believe. 
         
        I just received my model today and the detail is amazing, and not for just the late 1940's, either.  The hood sides and top, cab walls and frame, steps, ect. are all individual castings that have been very neatly assembled - soldered - by the builder.  The floor appears to be 1/16" thick sheet brass, and the cab roof is formed and shaped brass shim stock.  The interior cab walls I can easilly see exhibit the teltale evidence of the unique Red Ball casting runners and circular cut off saw marks.
         
        In the photos below, notice how the individual cab window frames, and not just the divider are cast.  The Lindsay and Varney NW-2 lack all detailing here.  The model was first sold unpowered, but later was sold with the Lindsay power truck.
         
        Other similar cast metal EMC/EMD switchers:  In the late 1940's Lindsay had the similar looking, but larger 1000 hp EMD NW- 2, advertised as cast by the lost wax process in brass - later marketed by Kemtron and PFM.  As described in the Varney Guide, Varney receive permission from Lindsay to copy the NW-2 in the excellent 
        die-cast Zamac version many of us are familiar with and that was sold well into the 1960's. Side by side, the differences between the Red Ball SW-1 and Varney NW-2 are substantial, besides the ove vs. two stacks.  In vintage formed sheet metal models, Super Scale had two similar models in the 1940's, an SW-1 and larger NW-1 or 2?, -- see Jim H's album for photos. 
         
        After mention in two 1947 Red Ball newsletters and the No. 4 Catalog, the model seems to have been dropped.  Does anyone know the reasons or have more information about this very scarce - in my opinion - model?  Or can anyone furnish a copy of the assembly sheet?  I will add the handrails per prototype, but wanted to see what Newton showed.  No doubt, he got that right, too.
         
        W. Jay W.
         
         
         
         


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14061 From: Chris B Date: 5/10/2010
        Subject: Re: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947
        Jim, good job, and just another reason to appreciate what a major asset HOSeeker is to the vintage HO slice of the much larger model railroad / toy train hobby.
        There was a time when the TTCA didn't exist, but that didn't stop interested savvy collectors from researching and sharing anything they learned about the early makers and models of pre-WWI toy/model trains.
        Whatever happens in the future, knowledge gained and shared on HOSeeker is preserved for the future.
        Chris B
        From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
        Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:57:24 -0400
        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947

         

        

        Chris B,
         
            I wanted to let you know that Larry Stevenson / ho seeker is already starting to add small descriptions to pictures in the Gallery section of his site to go along with the Literature section.. I know that roughly over 500 photos from my collection are in the process of that being done. Larry ask me to add it to the pictures and I think he will have anyone who places pictures to do the same. If the items are as little odder, rarer and harder to find then the description will be a little more informative plus a number of views. Check out Winton, Schrader, Stock, GARCO, Dallas Model Craft, Arden to name a few that are finished. That way others will have access to this extra information.
              However if the item is a little better known there still will be some description. Check Mantua. Eventually every picture will be done this way that I have sent.
         
                                                                            Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Chris B
        Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:00 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947

         

        W Jay W,

        I wanted to second the congratulations, and say thanks for the description of this rare unit. I do pay attention to these early cast diesels, but I'm just starting to learn about them from the past year in this group.  You and Jim both just wrote some pretty good text, both about this unit and the DMC FT. 

        Maybe some day there might be a place at HO Seeker for this type of short description of rare models, sort of a supplement to the original literature and the model photos?

        Chris B.



        From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Mon, May 10, 2010 2:54:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947

         

        W Jay W,
         
             Congratulations on your recent Red Ball find. I must admit I had not known much about this switcher. There is a picture of a beat up one on Page 64 of Lenahans Locomotive Lexicon Volume II. I did know of the Red Ball RS-3. I never really sought out the Red Ball engines but maybe I will have to expand the area of my collection. Something to look for.
         
           Sharp eyes to pick it out. I think I remember seeing the listing saying Cary. It does look to have sharp detail. It always amazes me how much is out there.
         
                                                             Jim H
         
                                                                                 
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 1:23 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947 [5 Attachments]

         

        Hi Jim H., All,
         
        When I began searching on eBay about nine years ago, it was mainly to locate the various PRR Boxcab Electric Locomotives from Trackside Specialties and to find various Red Ball kits.  In my first year, I found a Trackside Specialties B-1 switcher and lost out on a P-5A and began building my substantial collection of Red Ball as well.  I was not aware that Red Ball even had locomotives in their line, but eventually learned of the sheet brass and die-cast Linotype metal ALCO RS-3 they cataloged and sold circa 1951. It took until this past winter to finally find my Trackside Specialties P5-A.
             
        It was not until about six or seven years ago, when I bought a copy of Red Ball catalog No. 4 issued in 1947 that I was aware that Red Ball's first locomotive manufactured during founder M. Dale Newton's period of ownership was an EMC SW-1.  I immediately set out to look for one as besides fitting into my vintage locomotive collection, both railroads I extensively modeled used them - Erie had one and Lackawanna had 10 or 11 of the little 660 hp switchers. The RB Catalog No. 4 illustration below is courtesy of HO Seeker. 
         
        To date, I have never seen the model on eBay listed as Red Ball, though I suppose I could have missed it in my early eBay days.  Later, I was beginning to wonder if this model was ever manufactured at all. 
         
        Finally, about two weeks ago, I spotted this beauty on eBay, mis-identified as being possibly by Cary, with Lindsay power truck. Cary manufactured a cast white metal EMD SW-1500 switcher, a substantially larger and more modern locomotive, in the 1970's that was continued in the Bowser line, later in die-cast Zamac I believe. 
         
        I just received my model today and the detail is amazing, and not for just the late 1940's, either.  The hood sides and top, cab walls and frame, steps, ect. are all individual castings that have been very neatly assembled - soldered - by the builder.  The floor appears to be 1/16" thick sheet brass, and the cab roof is formed and shaped brass shim stock.  The interior cab walls I can easilly see exhibit the teltale evidence of the unique Red Ball casting runners and circular cut off saw marks.
         
        In the photos below, notice how the individual cab window frames, and not just the divider are cast.  The Lindsay and Varney NW-2 lack all detailing here.  The model was first sold unpowered, but later was sold with the Lindsay power truck.
         
        Other similar cast metal EMC/EMD switchers:  In the late 1940's Lindsay had the similar looking, but larger 1000 hp EMD NW- 2, advertised as cast by the lost wax process in brass - later marketed by Kemtron and PFM.  As described in the Varney Guide, Varney receive permission from Lindsay to copy the NW-2 in the excellent 
        die-cast Zamac version many of us are familiar with and that was sold well into the 1960's. Side by side, the differences between the Red Ball SW-1 and Varney NW-2 are substantial, besides the ove vs. two stacks.  In vintage formed sheet metal models, Super Scale had two similar models in the 1940's, an SW-1 and larger NW-1 or 2?, -- see Jim H's album for photos. 
         
        After mention in two 1947 Red Ball newsletters and the No. 4 Catalog, the model seems to have been dropped.  Does anyone know the reasons or have more information about this very scarce - in my opinion - model?  Or can anyone furnish a copy of the assembly sheet?  I will add the handrails per prototype, but wanted to see what Newton showed.  No doubt, he got that right, too.
         
        W. Jay W.
         
         
         
         


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14062 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/11/2010
        Subject: Re: The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW-1 Switcher from 1947 [5 Attachments]
        Hi Jim H., Chris B.,

        Thanks both, for your good words - It was just about as much fun in sharing about the locomotive and the find as it was to discover it and be the highest bidder standing. Only one other bidder - might have been someone here - who must have also recognized what it was and whose bid came very close to my maximum - if so, hope you find another soon.

        Ironically, if the switcher had been correctly described as to manufacturer, or if it had not been listed next to THREE of the lost-wax cast brass Lindsay NW-2 switchers, I might have also been outbid.

        Jim, it was interesting to hear you say that Lenahan's only had a photo of one in poor shape. Since the photos I posted here were not mine, I will ask for permission to send them to Larry at HO Seeker to add to the information there as well.

        Chris, I am fairly new here myself - maybe two years - but I also quickly recognized the value of our collective members' knowledge - both long time NMRA Vintage HO SIG veteran's as well as new members's observations - and the way it has all been so freely shared. Having benefit of it has enabled me to increase my own knowledge and enjoyment in collecting and operating Vintage HO and allowed me to share what information I may have as well.

        Hopefully, all our efforts here and with HO Seeker contributions will help increase the general model railroading community's knowledge of the many interesting and accurate model's manufactured in our hobby's early days as well as encourage future generation's appreciation of them, too.

        W. Jay W.


        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
        >
        > W Jay W,
        >
        > Congratulations on your recent Red Ball find. I must admit I had not known much about this switcher. There is a picture of a beat up one on Page 64 of Lenahans Locomotive Lexicon Volume II. I did know of the Red Ball RS-3. I never really sought out the Red Ball engines but maybe I will have to expand the area of my collection. Something to look for.
        >
        > Sharp eyes to pick it out. I think I remember seeing the listing saying Cary. It does look to have sharp detail. It always amazes me how much is out there.
        >
        > Jim H
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Jay Wanczyk
        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 1:23 PM
        > Subject: [vintageHO] The Elusive Red Ball EMC SW- Switcher from 1947 [5 Attachments]
        >
        >
        >
        > [Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below]
        >
        >
        > Hi Jim H., All,
        >
        > When I began searching on eBay about nine years ago, it was mainly to locate the various PRR Boxcab Electric Locomotives from Trackside Specialties and to find various Red Ball kits. In my first year, I found a Trackside Specialties B-1 switcher and lost out on a P-5A and began building my substantial collection of Red Ball as well. I was not aware that Red Ball even had locomotives in their line, but eventually learned of the sheet brass and die-cast Linotype metal ALCO RS-3 they cataloged and sold circa 1951. It took until this past winter to finally find my Trackside Specialties P5-A.
        >
        > It was not until about six or seven years ago, when I bought a copy of Red Ball catalog No. 4 issued in 1947 that I was aware that Red Ball's first locomotive manufactured during founder M. Dale Newton's period of ownership was an EMC SW-1. I immediately set out to look for one as besides fitting into my vintage locomotive collection, both railroads I extensively modeled used them - Erie had one and Lackawanna had 10 or 11 of the little 660 hp switchers. The RB Catalog No. 4 illustration below is courtesy of HO Seeker.
        >
        > To date, I have never seen the model on eBay listed as Red Ball, though I suppose I could have missed it in my early eBay days. Later, I was beginning to wonder if this model was ever manufactured at all.
        >
        > Finally, about two weeks ago, I spotted this beauty on eBay, mis-identified as being possibly by Cary, with Lindsay power truck. Cary manufactured a cast white metal EMD SW-1500 switcher, a substantially larger and more modern locomotive, in the 1970's that was continued in the Bowser line, later in die-cast Zamac I believe.
        >
        > I just received my model today and the detail is amazing, and not for just the late 1940's, either. The hood sides and top, cab walls and frame, steps, ect. are all individual castings that have been very neatly assembled - soldered - by the builder. The floor appears to be 1/16" thick sheet brass, and the cab roof is formed and shaped brass shim stock. The interior cab walls I can easilly see exhibit the teltale evidence of the unique Red Ball casting runners and circular cut off saw marks.
        >
        > In the photos below, notice how the individual cab window frames, and not just the divider are cast. The Lindsay and Varney NW-2 lack all detailing here. The model was first sold unpowered, but later was sold with the Lindsay power truck.
        >
        > Other similar cast metal EMC/EMD switchers: In the late 1940's Lindsay had the similar looking, but larger 1000 hp EMD NW- 2, advertised as cast by the lost wax process in brass - later marketed by Kemtron and PFM. As described in the Varney Guide, Varney receive permission from Lindsay to copy the NW-2 in the excellent
        > die-cast Zamac version many of us are familiar with and that was sold well into the 1960's. Side by side, the differences between the Red Ball SW-1 and Varney NW-2 are substantial, besides the ove vs. two stacks. In vintage formed sheet metal models, Super Scale had two similar models in the 1940's, an SW-1 and larger NW-1 or 2?, -- see Jim H's album for photos.
        >
        > After mention in two 1947 Red Ball newsletters and the No. 4 Catalog, the model seems to have been dropped. Does anyone know the reasons or have more information about this very scarce - in my opinion - model? Or can anyone furnish a copy of the assembly sheet? I will add the handrails per prototype, but wanted to see what Newton showed. No doubt, he got that right, too.
        >
        > W. Jay W.
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14063 From: rcjge Date: 5/11/2010
        Subject: John english FA ABA set
        hey gents:

        I know of a Hobby dealer in a small town near me who has an original in boxes John English Alco FA ABA set. Three separate boxes, all unbuilt. Great guy to deal with. I'd be happy to pass on his contact info but two things:

        1) Jim H. gets right of refusal since I owe him a rather large favour

        and,

        2) I ask you as a matter of trust to only pursue this as a collection for yourself. I don't want them sold off on ebay or used as a commodity. I know that may seem a trifle "romantic" of me but these things should be appreciated. I hope that doesn't offend anyone...

        Thanks guys. Enjoying the posting and oh yeah, having dealt with "MRHobbytown" now I can tell you he is a seller of integrity and trust.

        Cheers,
        Gareth
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14064 From: jim heckard Date: 5/11/2010
        Subject: Re: John english FA ABA set
        Gareth,
         
            Thanks for the offer and thinking of me but I will pass. I have an A and B and can't afford to have more. I'm sure someone might like them.
         
           And concerning  mrhobbytown I also think a great seller to deal with as others are finding out. Some hidden treasures thats for sure.
         
                                                     Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: rcjge
        Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 7:24 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] John english FA ABA set

         

        hey gents:

        I know of a Hobby dealer in a small town near me who has an original in boxes John English Alco FA ABA set. Three separate boxes, all unbuilt. Great guy to deal with. I'd be happy to pass on his contact info but two things:

        1) Jim H. gets right of refusal since I owe him a rather large favour

        and,

        2) I ask you as a matter of trust to only pursue this as a collection for yourself. I don't want them sold off on ebay or used as a commodity. I know that may seem a trifle "romantic" of me but these things should be appreciated. I hope that doesn't offend anyone...

        Thanks guys. Enjoying the posting and oh yeah, having dealt with "MRHobbytown" now I can tell you he is a seller of integrity and trust.

        Cheers,
        Gareth

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14065 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/11/2010
        Subject: Out of print magazine article
        I am looking for someone that has this issue of this magazine.  I would like to build one ot the dynamometer cars.  From what I have heard this is a pretty good article. Please contact me offline.  I have searched the web and ebay and I am still unable to find it.  All I need is a scan or a photocopy of this article.  
         
         February 1978 issue of Railroad Modeler Magazine, page 28
         
        Thanks Paul

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14066 From: rcjge Date: 5/11/2010
        Subject: Re: John english FA ABA set
        Hi Jim:

        Good enough.

        Btw, what would you suggest they are worth? One "A" is powered the other A and the B are not. All original in excellent boxes...kits unbuilt.

        -Gareth



        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
        >
        > Gareth,
        >
        > Thanks for the offer and thinking of me but I will pass. I have an A and B and can't afford to have more. I'm sure someone might like them.
        >
        > And concerning mrhobbytown I also think a great seller to deal with as others are finding out. Some hidden treasures thats for sure.
        >
        > Jim H
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: rcjge
        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 7:24 PM
        > Subject: [vintageHO] John english FA ABA set
        >
        >
        >
        > hey gents:
        >
        > I know of a Hobby dealer in a small town near me who has an original in boxes John English Alco FA ABA set. Three separate boxes, all unbuilt. Great guy to deal with. I'd be happy to pass on his contact info but two things:
        >
        > 1) Jim H. gets right of refusal since I owe him a rather large favour
        >
        > and,
        >
        > 2) I ask you as a matter of trust to only pursue this as a collection for yourself. I don't want them sold off on ebay or used as a commodity. I know that may seem a trifle "romantic" of me but these things should be appreciated. I hope that doesn't offend anyone...
        >
        > Thanks guys. Enjoying the posting and oh yeah, having dealt with "MRHobbytown" now I can tell you he is a seller of integrity and trust.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Gareth
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14067 From: jim heckard Date: 5/12/2010
        Subject: Re: John english FA ABA set
        Gareth,
         
            One of the hardest questions I find to answer about vintage HO is " What's it worth".  Unlike Lionel O gauge and Flyer S gauge where pricing is kind of a standard already based on the number on the item HO hasn't reached that point and probably never will.  Mainly because you have kits, undecorated items, built up and custom painted besides the RTR factory painted stuff. While a lot depends on condition, is it mint, have original box, etc. To me price as a buyer can sometimes come down to how much you want it and how hard is it to find one. Buyers and sellers both want what's the best deal for them. That is why I like auctions like eBay. Sorry I can't answer this better.
         
                                                                                    Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: rcjge
        Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 9:26 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: John english FA ABA set

         

        Hi Jim:

        Good enough.

        Btw, what would you suggest they are worth? One "A" is powered the other A and the B are not. All original in excellent boxes...kits unbuilt.

        -Gareth

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@... > wrote:
        >
        > Gareth,
        >
        > Thanks for the offer and thinking of me but I will pass. I have an A and B and can't afford to have more. I'm sure someone might like them.
        >
        > And concerning mrhobbytown I also think a great seller to deal with as others are finding out. Some hidden treasures thats for sure.
        >
        > Jim H
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: rcjge
        > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 7:24 PM
        > Subject: [vintageHO] John english FA ABA set
        >
        >
        >
        > hey gents:
        >
        > I know of a Hobby dealer in a small town near me who has an original in boxes John English Alco FA ABA set. Three separate boxes, all unbuilt. Great guy to deal with. I'd be happy to pass on his contact info but two things:
        >
        > 1) Jim H. gets right of refusal since I owe him a rather large favour
        >
        > and,
        >
        > 2) I ask you as a matter of trust to only pursue this as a collection for yourself. I don't want them sold off on ebay or used as a commodity. I know that may seem a trifle "romantic" of me but these things should be appreciated. I hope that doesn't offend anyone...
        >
        > Thanks guys. Enjoying the posting and oh yeah, having dealt with "MRHobbytown" now I can tell you he is a seller of integrity and trust.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Gareth
        >

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14068 From: still just frank Date: 5/12/2010
        Subject: Who made these ?
        I posted a photo of some old passenger cars of the 1880s.I posted it in Miscellaneous album. I put it in Don't know who made them and if someone has some platforms and steps for them. toptrain1@...
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14069 From: bob d Date: 5/12/2010
        Subject: Re: John english FA ABA set
        Jim, Gareth, all,

        My Granddad had a saying(doesn't every Irishman?), "a deal is best described where two fools meet. One is a fool for paying too much and the other a fool for asking/accepting so little."

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
        >
        > hey gents:
        >
        > I know of a Hobby dealer in a small town near me who has an original in boxes John English Alco FA ABA set. Three separate boxes, all unbuilt. Great guy to deal with. I'd be happy to pass on his contact info but two things:
        >
        > 1) Jim H. gets right of refusal since I owe him a rather large favour
        >
        > and,
        >
        > 2) I ask you as a matter of trust to only pursue this as a collection for yourself. I don't want them sold off on ebay or used as a commodity. I know that may seem a trifle "romantic" of me but these things should be appreciated. I hope that doesn't offend anyone...
        >
        > Thanks guys. Enjoying the posting and oh yeah, having dealt with "MRHobbytown" now I can tell you he is a seller of integrity and trust.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Gareth
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14070 From: jim heckard Date: 5/12/2010
        Subject: Re: John english FA ABA set
        Bob,
         
             I think your grandfathers old saying is right on the money. It explains very well what I was trying to say about pricing. I must remember this . Thanks.
         
                                           Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: bob d
        Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 12:17 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: John english FA ABA set

         

        Jim, Gareth, all,

        My Granddad had a saying(doesn' t every Irishman?), "a deal is best described where two fools meet. One is a fool for paying too much and the other a fool for asking/accepting so little."

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > hey gents:
        >
        > I know of a Hobby dealer in a small town near me who has an original in boxes John English Alco FA ABA set. Three separate boxes, all unbuilt. Great guy to deal with. I'd be happy to pass on his contact info but two things:
        >
        > 1) Jim H. gets right of refusal since I owe him a rather large favour
        >
        > and,
        >
        > 2) I ask you as a matter of trust to only pursue this as a collection for yourself. I don't want them sold off on ebay or used as a commodity. I know that may seem a trifle "romantic" of me but these things should be appreciated. I hope that doesn't offend anyone...
        >
        > Thanks guys. Enjoying the posting and oh yeah, having dealt with "MRHobbytown" now I can tell you he is a seller of integrity and trust.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Gareth
        >

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14071 From: DarylO Date: 5/13/2010
        Subject: AHI Trains??
        In my "travels" on the Internet I came across a picture of two, boxed HO
        accessories from "AHI Trains". What made it interesting is that the boxes and
        accessories were just like the "Ideal produced" Gilbert/American Flyer HO
        accessories. One was a Floodlight Tower and the other was a Water Tower. The
        big difference I see is that the color rendition on the boxes is different from
        the Ideal/Gilbert red & white. The AHI boxes are a turquoise/white combination.
        Except for the "AHI Trains" on the label, the label graphics look the same.
        This is the first time I ever ran across "AHI Trains". Anybody know anything
        about this company and when these items were produced?
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14072 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 5/13/2010
        Subject: Re: Empire City Models
         
        I have several of the Empire City Models Penna. 60' Merchandise Service Cars and am wondering if anyone knows if this outfit produced any other model kits. The kit makes a car that is a very fine looking detailed wood creation with metal ends and some detail metal parts. The natural finish of the wood alone makes it almost too nice to paint (though I did paint one of them). The directions state that Quality Craft Models provide the design and car components, and decals are by Accu-Cals. Empire City Models is out of Staten Island, NY. Anyone know if they offered any other kits?
         
        Art W

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        Group: vintageHO Message: 14073 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/13/2010
        Subject: Re: Empire City Models
        Hi Art W.,

        That is a nice kit. Dont't think they offered any others as I followed and built those type kits back then, but can't be 100% sure -however, it was the only kit of theirs reviewed by the magazines, in January 1976 RMC, page 76 if you have it.

        W. Jay W.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > I have several of the Empire City Models Penna. 60' Merchandise Service
        > Cars and am wondering if anyone knows if this outfit produced any other model
        > kits. The kit makes a car that is a very fine looking detailed wood
        > creation with metal ends and some detail metal parts. The natural finish of the
        > wood alone makes it almost too nice to paint (though I did paint one of
        > them). The directions state that Quality Craft Models provide the design and car
        > components, and decals are by Accu-Cals. Empire City Models is out of
        > Staten Island, NY. Anyone know if they offered any other kits?
        >
        > Art W
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14074 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/13/2010
        Subject: Re: AHI Trains??
        Hi "DarylO", I checked the Composite Product Review Index and could find no listing of either MR or RMC reviews for the AHI name. Jay

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "DarylO" <jaytewilli@...> wrote:
        >
        > In my "travels" on the Internet I came across a picture of two, boxed HO
        > accessories from "AHI Trains". What made it interesting is that the boxes and
        > accessories were just like the "Ideal produced" Gilbert/American Flyer HO
        > accessories. One was a Floodlight Tower and the other was a Water Tower. The
        > big difference I see is that the color rendition on the boxes is different from
        > the Ideal/Gilbert red & white. The AHI boxes are a turquoise/white combination.
        > Except for the "AHI Trains" on the label, the label graphics look the same.
        > This is the first time I ever ran across "AHI Trains". Anybody know anything
        > about this company and when these items were produced?
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14075 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/13/2010
        Subject: Goodyears model room
        Here is a link to a great site and article on some pretty cool models

        --- On Thu, 5/13/10, b.e.brosnan@... <b.e.brosnan@...> wrote:

        From: b.e.brosnan@... <b.e.brosnan@...>
        Subject: [STEEL] Goodyears model room
        To: "Steel" <steel@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 2:56 PM

         
        This is a link to a WSJ article and photos of models of Goodyear plants. They are looking for a home for the models. Rick are you reading this. Couls go to the Labor Museum in Youngstown, but I don't know who to forward the story to.

        Check it out at http://online. wsj.com/article/ SB10001424052748 7033380045752303 61346809370. html?KEYWORDS= goodyear

        If the link doesn't work go www.wsj.com/ us and type in Goodyear in the search box.

        Brendan

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14076 From: Daryl Olszeski Date: 5/13/2010
        Subject: Re: AHI Trains??
        Thanks, Jay.  Sounds like a mystery then.  Hopefully somebody has some info....

        Daryl



        On 5/13/2010 3:31 PM, the_plainsman wrote:
         

        Hi "DarylO", I checked the Composite Product Review Index and could find no listing of either MR or RMC reviews for the AHI name. Jay

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "DarylO" <jaytewilli@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > In my "travels" on the Internet I came across a picture of two, boxed HO
        > accessories from "AHI Trains". What made it interesting is that the boxes and
        > accessories were just like the "Ideal produced" Gilbert/American Flyer HO
        > accessories. One was a Floodlight Tower and the other was a Water Tower. The
        > big difference I see is that the color rendition on the boxes is different from
        > the Ideal/Gilbert red & white. The AHI boxes are a turquoise/white combination.
        > Except for the "AHI Trains" on the label, the label graphics look the same.
        > This is the first time I ever ran across "AHI Trains". Anybody know anything
        > about this company and when these items were produced?
        >


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14077 From: jim heckard Date: 5/13/2010
        Subject: A H I iems
        Daryl O,
         
                   I tried to look  or information about AHI in the book Gilbert and American Flyer HO by Gary Klein but have not found anything. I just sent an email to a close personal friend who has one of the largest Gilbert American Flyer collection I know of including accessories.  Rick Tonet was also a very large contributor to Gary Klien's book. I am hoping Rick can provide some information about AHI which seems like ( to me ) a company selling off extra stock after Gilbert left the HO scene.
         
          If I hear anything I will get back to you. You peaked my interest.
         
                                                                   Jim H
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14078 From: Daryl Olszeski Date: 5/13/2010
        Subject: Re: A H I iems
        Thanks for the help Jim.  My own speculation is that Ideal had an Asian supplier making the accessories for them and Gilbert.  My guess is that when Ideal got out of that  HO business, the Asian supplier decided to try and market the items they produced for themselves or did for another importer (like Ideal).  Again, pure speculation on my part.  I also am a Gilbert HO collector and I never ran across AHI before.  Thanks for any info anyone may be able to provide.

        Daryl




        On 5/13/2010 8:50 PM, jim heckard wrote:
         

        Daryl O,
         
                   I tried to look  or information about AHI in the book Gilbert and American Flyer HO by Gary Klein but have not found anything. I just sent an email to a close personal friend who has one of the largest Gilbert American Flyer collection I know of including accessories.  Rick Tonet was also a very large contributor to Gary Klien's book. I am hoping Rick can provide some information about AHI which seems like ( to me ) a company selling off extra stock after Gilbert left the HO scene.
         
          If I hear anything I will get back to you. You peaked my interest.
         
                                                                   Jim H

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14079 From: jim heckard Date: 5/13/2010
        Subject: Re: A H I iems
            I just got a reply from Mr.Tonet. He has no knowledge of AHI. Sorry I thought he might know. Good luck with your search. I think you are on the right track about someone having access to either extra stuff or as you say continue making it
         
                                                                      Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:42 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A H I iems

         

        Thanks for the help Jim.  My own speculation is that Ideal had an Asian supplier making the accessories for them and Gilbert.  My guess is that when Ideal got out of that  HO business, the Asian supplier decided to try and market the items they produced for themselves or did for another importer (like Ideal).  Again, pure speculation on my part.  I also am a Gilbert HO collector and I never ran across AHI before.  Thanks for any info anyone may be able to provide.

        Daryl




        On 5/13/2010 8:50 PM, jim heckard wrote:

         

        Daryl O,
         
                   I tried to look  or information about AHI in the book Gilbert and American Flyer HO by Gary Klein but have not found anything. I just sent an email to a close personal friend who has one of the largest Gilbert American Flyer collection I know of including accessories.  Rick Tonet was also a very large contributor to Gary Klien's book. I am hoping Rick can provide some information about AHI which seems like ( to me ) a company selling off extra stock after Gilbert left the HO scene.
         
          If I hear anything I will get back to you. You peaked my interest.
         
                                                                   Jim H

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14080 From: DarylO Date: 5/13/2010
        Subject: Info Found on AHI
        Well, I decided to search "toy" related webpages instead of "train" related webpages and I think I finally found some info.  It appears "AHI" stands for Azrak Hamway International.  Wikipedia says they are a toy distributor founded in 1964 in New York City.  In 1974 they bought REMCO toys.  It looks like they still make toys. I still didn't find any info related to them making toy train  accessories.  Speculating again, maybe the train accessories were at the very start of their business.  If anybody finds any info about them making train accessories, please let me know.  In the mean time I'll keep digging?


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14081 From: Chris B Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: Info Found on AHI
        More hits from various searches for AHI and Azrak Hamway:

        Diecast Toys A to Z

        Jun 5, 2009 ... Azrak Hamway International (see AHI) ..... www.toynutz.com/a-z.html
        -------

        Timeline of Toy Companies - Professional toy design and ...

        company and brand name were sold to Azrak-Hamway International of New York City ...www.toyarts.com/history/index.html
        ---------------

        duckduckgo.com/c/Defunct_toy_manufacturers
        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company ...
        -------------------

        About the Duck Duck Go link above,
        the Azrak Hamway link on that page
        leads to the full Azrak Hamway page.

        To go directly to that page, just click on this link directly below:

        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items.
          
        Give the page lots of time to load all the links on it, more than fifty, less than a hundred?
         
        It seems to include every imaginable internet page with any information at all of any type on Azrak Hamway.
        unfortunately, no obvious link to any type of model train information,
        but someone else may recognize a firm name or word in one of those links
        that might lead to some information about AHI and model trains...

        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items.


        Chris B.

        From: DarylO <jaytewilli@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 12:40:35 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Info Found on AHI

         

        Well, I decided to search "toy" related webpages instead of "train" related webpages and I think I finally found some info.  It appears "AHI" stands for Azrak Hamway International.  Wikipedia says they are a toy distributor founded in 1964 in New York City.  In 1974 they bought REMCO toys.  It looks like they still make toys. I still didn't find any info related to them making toy train  accessories.  Speculating again, maybe the train accessories were at the very start of their business.  If anybody finds any info about them making train accessories, please let me know.  In the mean time I'll keep digging?



        Group: vintageHO Message: 14082 From: Daryl Olszeski Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: Info Found on AHI
        Thanks, Chris.  Even though you found no specifics on AHI and train accessories, I found the Timeline of Toy Companies fascinating reading.

        Daryl


          On 5/14/2010 7:35 AM, Chris B wrote:
         
        More hits from various searches for AHI and Azrak Hamway:

        Diecast Toys A to Z

        Jun 5, 2009 ... Azrak Hamway International (see AHI) ..... www.toynutz. com/a-z.html
        -------

        Timeline of Toy Companies - Professional toy design and ...

        company and brand name were sold to Azrak-Hamway International of New York City ...www.toyarts. com/history/ index.html
        ------------ ---

        duckduckgo.com/ c/Defunct_ toy_manufacturer s
        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company ...
        ------------ -------

        About the Duck Duck Go link above,
        the Azrak Hamway link on that page
        leads to the full Azrak Hamway page.

        To go directly to that page, just click on this link directly below:

        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items.
          
        Give the page lots of time to load all the links on it, more than fifty, less than a hundred?
         
        It seems to include every imaginable internet page with any information at all of any type on Azrak Hamway.
        unfortunately, no obvious link to any type of model train information,
        but someone else may recognize a firm name or word in one of those links
        that might lead to some information about AHI and model trains...

        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items.


        Chris B.

        From: DarylO <jaytewilli@hotmail. com>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 12:40:35 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Info Found on AHI

         

        Well, I decided to search "toy" related webpages instead of "train" related webpages and I think I finally found some info.  It appears "AHI" stands for Azrak Hamway International.  Wikipedia says they are a toy distributor founded in 1964 in New York City.  In 1974 they bought REMCO toys.  It looks like they still make toys. I still didn't find any info related to them making toy train  accessories.  Speculating again, maybe the train accessories were at the very start of their business.  If anybody finds any info about them making train accessories, please let me know.  In the mean time I'll keep digging?




        Group: vintageHO Message: 14083 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: Empire City Models
        Art, I have a couple of these Empire City Models 60' PRR Merchandise Box
        Car kits myself. This was the only model they produced. There was an
        article written up about them in The Reporting Mark (HO SC&H SIG) back in the late
        ' 80's specifically stating that. Ray F. W.</HTML>
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14084 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: AHI Trains??
        Daryl, While I can't add much to what you've already found out about "AHI
        BRAND" (and that's how it appears on their boxes) possibly being Azrak
        Hamway International, I also have one of their Water Towers. I bought mine as
        new-in-box, old stock from AHC's satelite store in River Edge, NJ about 15
        years ago; it's an Illuminated Water Tower and apparently one of a series of
        "Operating Equipment." as advertised on the box.. As my box indicates a model
        number 5968, it seems very likely they produced many more models. It's
        very well done, and well detailed, being made of heavy metal castings -- and
        factory painted. The "illuminated" part refers to its having a red warning
        "beacon" on top. You may want to do a search as the full name (AHI Brands),
        as it's stated that this is a registered trade mark. Ray Wetzel


        </HTML>
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14085 From: Daryl Olszeski Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: AHI Trains??
        Thanks for the info Ray.  Your water tower is probably the same as I saw in the photo I came across.  I find it interesting that it is made of metal castings since the Ideal/Gilbert items were all plastic.  What first caught my eye is that the box was basically the same as the Ideal/Gilbert except for the color.  For the heck of it I went a did a search on eBay and I see there are a few water towers for sale minus boxes.  There's also a crossing signal which is just like the Ideal/Gilbert ones and it follows the same pattern of having the same kind of box right down to the graphics except for the colors.  I don't know how much more investigating I'll do since I'm really a Gilbert HO collector/operator and this is getting a little off the mark for me.  I appreciate everybody's efforts so far.  It would be nice if we could find an advertisement linking AHI to train accessories.  Thanks again everybody......


        Daryl



        On 5/14/2010 9:12 AM, erieberk@... wrote:
         

        Daryl, While I can't add much to what you've already found out about "AHI
        BRAND" (and that's how it appears on their boxes) possibly being Azrak
        Hamway International, I also have one of their Water Towers. I bought mine as
        new-in-box, old stock from AHC's satelite store in River Edge, NJ about 15
        years ago; it's an Illuminated Water Tower and apparently one of a series of
        "Operating Equipment." as advertised on the box.. As my box indicates a model
        number 5968, it seems very likely they produced many more models. It's
        very well done, and well detailed, being made of heavy metal castings -- and
        factory painted. The "illuminated" part refers to its having a red warning
        "beacon" on top. You may want to do a search as the full name (AHI Brands),
        as it's stated that this is a registered trade mark. Ray Wetzel

        </HTML>


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14086 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: A H I iems
        Daryl, It appears you're right in speculating that A H I is an Asian
        manufacturer. In doing an eBay search just now, using both "AHI Train" and "AHI
        Brand," I came up with a few relatively inexpensive cast automobiles and a
        couple of very expensive lithographed tin models (one, an enclosed circus
        wagon) by them -- all stating they were made in Japan. This fact is not stated
        on their box. Ray F. W.</HTML>
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14087 From: Daryl Olszeski Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: A H I iems
        Yes, I also saw those when I was searching around on eBay. 

        On 5/14/2010 9:38 AM, erieberk@... wrote:
         

        Daryl, It appears you're right in speculating that A H I is an Asian
        manufacturer. In doing an eBay search just now, using both "AHI Train" and "AHI
        Brand," I came up with a few relatively inexpensive cast automobiles and a
        couple of very expensive lithographed tin models (one, an enclosed circus
        wagon) by them -- all stating they were made in Japan. This fact is not stated
        on their box. Ray F. W.</HTML>


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14088 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: Info Found on AHI
        Chris (And all),

        That time line might explain another mystery I have an A.C. Gilbert HO Scale hudson that appears to be never stamped in raised letters 'American Flyer' on the tender deck. Gilbert bought American Flyer in 1937. Anyone else thinking that it is possible some HO Scale hudsons got produced before the buyout and thus did not have that raised lettering...

        I could be way off, and this is just a guess based on some musings.

        I am heading up to Camp Ma Ka Ja Wan (Five hours away) for a Boy Scout workers weekend (Maintenance prior to opening of camp for Scouts), and will not have internet access till Sunday night.

        -Steve Neubaum

        --- On Fri, 5/14/10, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:

        From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Info Found on AHI
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, May 14, 2010, 6:35 AM

         

        More hits from various searches for AHI and Azrak Hamway:

        Diecast Toys A to Z

        Jun 5, 2009 ... Azrak Hamway International (see AHI) ..... www.toynutz. com/a-z.html
        -------

        Timeline of Toy Companies - Professional toy design and ...

        company and brand name were sold to Azrak-Hamway International of New York City ...www.toyarts. com/history/ index.html
        ------------ ---

        duckduckgo.com/ c/Defunct_ toy_manufacturer s
        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company ...
        ------------ -------

        About the Duck Duck Go link above,
        the Azrak Hamway link on that page
        leads to the full Azrak Hamway page.

        To go directly to that page, just click on this link directly below:

        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items.
          
        Give the page lots of time to load all the links on it, more than fifty, less than a hundred?
         
        It seems to include every imaginable internet page with any information at all of any type on Azrak Hamway.
        unfortunately, no obvious link to any type of model train information,
        but someone else may recognize a firm name or word in one of those links
        that might lead to some information about AHI and model trains...

        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items.


        Chris B.

        From: DarylO <jaytewilli@hotmail. com>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 12:40:35 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Info Found on AHI

         

        Well, I decided to search "toy" related webpages instead of "train" related webpages and I think I finally found some info.  It appears "AHI" stands for Azrak Hamway International.  Wikipedia says they are a toy distributor founded in 1964 in New York City.  In 1974 they bought REMCO toys.  It looks like they still make toys. I still didn't find any info related to them making toy train  accessories.  Speculating again, maybe the train accessories were at the very start of their business.  If anybody finds any info about them making train accessories, please let me know.  In the mean time I'll keep digging?



        Group: vintageHO Message: 14089 From: Chris B Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: A H I iems
        Like most other toy firms,
        they might have produced in Asia, but all the refs online list them as a New York based international company.

        Much of the online material about them is devoted to the legal battles between AHI and other toy firms, including Mattel, Meccano, and Mego.

        Chris B.


        -------------
        http://en.allexperts.com/e/a/az/azrak-hamway.htm

        Azrak-Hamway

        Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items. In 1974 Azrak-Hamway acquired the Remco Toy name and produced toys of more substance under the Remco brand, including several popular culture licensed items like Universal Monsters, Space 1999, Batman, Marvel Super Heroes and other TV Tie-in products. Azrak-Hamway created the Child Guidance division in 1994 in an effort to produce child learning toys. In 1997 Jakks Pacific acquires Child Guidance and Remco from Azrak-Hamway International.

        Many of the inexpensive items offered by Azrak-Hamway were licensed products that featured climbing, hanging, or parachuting figures sold on simple bubble cards.


        For toy collectors, the most significant AHI toy contribution was the Official World Famous Super Monsters toyline, licensed from Universal Studios. These toys, released in 1973 (with additional monsters added through 1976) were an effort to capitalize on the Mego Corporation's popular Mad Monster Line. The set of 8-inch action figures included: Frankenstein, Dracula, Wolfman, Mummy and the Creature from the Black Lagoon. All except Dracula were officially licensed from Universal Studios.
        The Mego Corporation forced Azrak-Hamway to remove their line "Action Apemen" through injunction, as it was agreed to infringe on Mego's license rights to produce Planet of the Apes figures (Mego outbid AHI on the figure license, even though AHI produced many ancillary Planet of the Apes products).



        From: Daryl Olszeski <jaytewilli@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 9:52:02 AM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A H I iems

         

        Yes, I also saw those when I was searching around on eBay. 

        On 5/14/2010 9:38 AM, erieberk@wmconnect. com wrote:

         

        Daryl, It appears you're right in speculating that A H I is an Asian
        manufacturer. In doing an eBay search just now, using both "AHI Train" and "AHI
        Brand," I came up with a few relatively inexpensive cast automobiles and a
        couple of very expensive lithographed tin models (one, an enclosed circus
        wagon) by them -- all stating they were made in Japan. This fact is not stated
        on their box. Ray F. W.</HTML>



        Group: vintageHO Message: 14090 From: Chris B Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: A H I iems
        fwiw, there seems to have been a separate and unrelated Asian toy mfgr, Naito Shoten, whose trademark was AHI...

        I also found at least two references on line to concluded offline auctions with metal toy trains marked with AHI.

        Chris B.

        ------------
        http://www.jodysattic.com/pages/makermarks

        Naito Shoten

        • Founded 1960's
        • Tokyo / Japan

        Naito Shoten toys are generally marked with the brands AN or AHI, and it is believed that they were a division of or worked closely with Nomura. 'Shoten' means shop.



        From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 10:17:02 AM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A H I iems

         

        Like most other toy firms,
        they might have produced in Asia, but all the refs online list them as a New York based international company.

        Much of the online material about them is devoted to the legal battles between AHI and other toy firms, including Mattel, Meccano, and Mego.

        Chris B.


        ------------ -
        http://en.allexperts.com/e/a/az/azrak-hamway.htm

        Azrak-Hamway

        Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items. In 1974 Azrak-Hamway acquired the Remco Toy name and produced toys of more substance under the Remco brand, including several popular culture licensed items like Universal Monsters, Space 1999, Batman, Marvel Super Heroes and other TV Tie-in products. Azrak-Hamway created the Child Guidance division in 1994 in an effort to produce child learning toys. In 1997 Jakks Pacific acquires Child Guidance and Remco from Azrak-Hamway International.

        Many of the inexpensive items offered by Azrak-Hamway were licensed products that featured climbing, hanging, or parachuting figures sold on simple bubble cards.


        For toy collectors, the most significant AHI toy contribution was the Official World Famous Super Monsters toyline, licensed from Universal Studios. These toys, released in 1973 (with additional monsters added through 1976) were an effort to capitalize on the Mego Corporation' s popular Mad Monster Line. The set of 8-inch action figures included: Frankenstein, Dracula, Wolfman, Mummy and the Creature from the Black Lagoon. All except Dracula were officially licensed from Universal Studios.
        The Mego Corporation forced Azrak-Hamway to remove their line "Action Apemen" through injunction, as it was agreed to infringe on Mego's license rights to produce Planet of the Apes figures (Mego outbid AHI on the figure license, even though AHI produced many ancillary Planet of the Apes products).



        From: Daryl Olszeski <jaytewilli@hotmail. com>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 9:52:02 AM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A H I iems

         

        Yes, I also saw those when I was searching around on eBay. 

        On 5/14/2010 9:38 AM, erieberk@wmconnect. com wrote:

         

        Daryl, It appears you're right in speculating that A H I is an Asian
        manufacturer. In doing an eBay search just now, using both "AHI Train" and "AHI
        Brand," I came up with a few relatively inexpensive cast automobiles and a
        couple of very expensive lithographed tin models (one, an enclosed circus
        wagon) by them -- all stating they were made in Japan. This fact is not stated
        on their box. Ray F. W.</HTML>




        Group: vintageHO Message: 14091 From: RalphB Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Old Time Kit
        One of the younger members (he's only in his 30s) posted a request to the model RR club I'm in:

        > Ok, I have a question for the veteran model railroaders. I was at the Flea Market in Latham this morning, and found a couple good model railroad kits (for a good price.) One of them was a wooden kit from a company called "Model Hobbies." It is kit #545, HO Yard Accessories 5 Buildings. When I search the internet for it, it only mention that the company was from the 1950's. The kit is complete, minus the instructions on how to build it. But, thankfully they look really easy.

        > Has anyone ever heard of this company or their kits?

        I told him that I have an unfinished kit by this company; my wife bought it for me as a Christmas gift back in 1970, the year we were married. I've spent litterally hours on the web looking for info on Model Hobbies. Anybody in this group have anything?

        Ralph B
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14092 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: Info Found on AHI
        Steve,
        If the loco is AC, it is pre-war. The pre-war Hudson also had white paint on the edge of the running boards and red cab window frames. That having been said, owners did and do modify them to suit themselves.

        On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
         

        Chris (And all),

        That time line might explain another mystery I have an A.C. Gilbert HO Scale hudson that appears to be never stamped in raised letters 'American Flyer' on the tender deck. Gilbert bought American Flyer in 1937. Anyone else thinking that it is possible some HO Scale hudsons got produced before the buyout and thus did not have that raised lettering...

        I could be way off, and this is just a guess based on some musings.

        I am heading up to Camp Ma Ka Ja Wan (Five hours away) for a Boy Scout workers weekend (Maintenance prior to opening of camp for Scouts), and will not have internet access till Sunday night.

        -Steve Neubaum

        --- On Fri, 5/14/10, Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...> wrote:

        From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Info Found on AHI
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, May 14, 2010, 6:35 AM

         

        More hits from various searches for AHI and Azrak Hamway:

        Diecast Toys A to Z

        Jun 5, 2009 ... Azrak Hamway International (see AHI) ..... www.toynutz. com/a-z.html
        -------

        Timeline of Toy Companies - Professional toy design and ...

        company and brand name were sold to Azrak-Hamway International of New York City ...www.toyarts. com/history/ index.html
        ------------ ---

        duckduckgo.com/ c/Defunct_ toy_manufacturer s
        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company ...
        ------------ -------

        About the Duck Duck Go link above,
        the Azrak Hamway link on that page
        leads to the full Azrak Hamway page.

        To go directly to that page, just click on this link directly below:

        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items.
          
        Give the page lots of time to load all the links on it, more than fifty, less than a hundred?
         
        It seems to include every imaginable internet page with any information at all of any type on Azrak Hamway.
        unfortunately, no obvious link to any type of model train information,
        but someone else may recognize a firm name or word in one of those links
        that might lead to some information about AHI and model trains...

        Azrak-Hamway - Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items.


        Chris B.

        From: DarylO <jaytewilli@hotmail. com>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 12:40:35 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Info Found on AHI

         

        Well, I decided to search "toy" related webpages instead of "train" related webpages and I think I finally found some info.  It appears "AHI" stands for Azrak Hamway International.  Wikipedia says they are a toy distributor founded in 1964 in New York City.  In 1974 they bought REMCO toys.  It looks like they still make toys. I still didn't find any info related to them making toy train  accessories.  Speculating again, maybe the train accessories were at the very start of their business.  If anybody finds any info about them making train accessories, please let me know.  In the mean time I'll keep digging?






        --
        Regards,
        Walter
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14093 From: Dale Smith Date: 5/14/2010
        Subject: Re: Info Found on AHI
        I think HO was strictly A.C. Gilbert's idea, not something produced by
        Chicago Flyer. The story I heard is that A.C. talked to Coleman at a
        toy fair and told him that he was thinking of competing with him by
        introducing HO model trains. Coleman then offered to sell him his
        company at a very good price and the rest, as they say, is history.

        Dale

        Stephen Neubaum wrote:
        >
        >
        > Chris (And all),
        >
        > That time line might explain another mystery I have an A.C. Gilbert HO
        > Scale hudson that appears to be never stamped in raised letters
        > 'American Flyer' on the tender deck. Gilbert bought American Flyer in
        > 1937. Anyone else thinking that it is possible some HO Scale hudsons
        > got produced before the buyout and thus did not have that raised
        > lettering...
        >
        > I could be way off, and this is just a guess based on some musings.
        >
        > I am heading up to Camp Ma Ka Ja Wan (Five hours away) for a Boy Scout
        > workers weekend (Maintenance prior to opening of camp for Scouts), and
        > will not have internet access till Sunday night.
        >
        > -Steve Neubaum
        >
        > --- On *Fri, 5/14/10, Chris B /<chrisb_acw_rr@...>/* wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
        > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Info Found on AHI
        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Friday, May 14, 2010, 6:35 AM
        >
        >
        > More hits from various searches for AHI and Azrak Hamway:
        >
        >
        > Diecast Toys A to Z <http://www.toynutz.com/a-z.html>
        >
        > Jun 5, 2009 *...* /Azrak Hamway International/ (see AHI) *.....*
        > www.toynutz. com/a-z.html <http://www.toynutz.com/a-z.html>
        > -------
        >
        >
        > Timeline of Toy Companies - Professional toy design and
        > *...* <http://www.toyarts.com/history/index.html>
        >
        > company and brand name were sold to /Azrak-Hamway International/
        > of New York City *...*www.toyarts. com/history/ index.html
        > <http://www.toyarts.com/history/index.html>
        > ------------ ---
        >
        > duckduckgo.com/ c/Defunct_ toy_manufacturer s
        > Azrak-Hamway - /Azrak-Hamway International/, Inc., was a New York
        > toy company *...*
        > ------------ -------
        >
        > About the Duck Duck Go link above,
        > the Azrak Hamway link on that page
        > leads to the full Azrak Hamway page.
        >
        > To go directly to that page, just click on this link directly below:
        >
        > Azrak-Hamway <http://duckduckgo.com/Azrak-Hamway> - Azrak-Hamway
        > International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964
        > that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items.
        >
        > Give the page lots of time to load all the links on it, more than
        > fifty, less than a hundred?
        >
        > It seems to include every imaginable internet page with any
        > information at all of any type on Azrak Hamway.
        > unfortunately, no obvious link to any type of model train
        > information,
        > but someone else may recognize a firm name or word in one of those
        > links
        > that might lead to some information about AHI and model trains...
        >
        > Azrak-Hamway <http://duckduckgo.com/Azrak-Hamway> - Azrak-Hamway
        > International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964
        > that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items.
        >
        >
        > Chris B.
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > *From:* DarylO <jaytewilli@hotmail. com>
        > *To:* vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        > *Sent:* Fri, May 14, 2010 12:40:35 AM
        > *Subject:* [vintageHO] Info Found on AHI
        >
        >
        >
        > Well, I decided to search "toy" related webpages instead of
        > "train" related webpages and I think I finally found some info.
        > It appears "AHI" stands for *Azrak Hamway International*.
        > Wikipedia says they are a toy distributor founded in 1964 in New
        > York City. In 1974 they bought REMCO toys. It looks like they
        > still make toys. I still didn't find any info related to them
        > making toy train accessories. Speculating again, maybe the train
        > accessories were at the very start of their business. If anybody
        > finds any info about them making train accessories, please let me
        > know. In the mean time I'll keep digging?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14094 From: Graeme Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Re: A H I iems
        In message <26f74.382c10f8.391eac47@...>,
        erieberk@... writes
        >Daryl, It appears you're right in speculating that A H I is an Asian
        >manufacturer. In doing an eBay search just now, using both "AHI Train"
        >and "AHI
        >Brand," I came up with a few relatively inexpensive cast automobiles and a
        >couple of very expensive lithographed tin models (one, an enclosed circus
        >wagon) by them -- all stating they were made in Japan.

        Just come across a reference to AHI, whilst looking for something else.

        This site :

        http://www.tinmantintoys.com/history.html

        says 'Naito Shoten toys are generally marked with the brands AN or AHI,
        and it is believed that they were a division of Nomura in the 1960's.'

        I understood that items marked TN Japan were made by Nomura.

        --
        Graeme Eldred, Scotland
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14095 From: Chris B Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Re: A H I iems
        Fwiw, from what. I've seen and read online so far,
        the NYC firm AHI and the Japan-based firm Naito Shoten with the makers mark AHI would seem to be unrelated.

        I wonder if anyone will ever find some ref that would link the orig train models in question (or anything like them) to either firm.
        Chris B
        From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
        Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 07:25:15 -0700 (PDT)
        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A H I iems

         

        fwiw, there seems to have been a separate and unrelated Asian toy mfgr, Naito Shoten, whose trademark was AHI...

        I also found at least two references on line to concluded offline auctions with metal toy trains marked with AHI.

        Chris B.

        ------------
        http://www.jodysatt ic.com/pages/ makermarks

        Naito Shoten

        • Founded 1960's
        • Tokyo / Japan

        Naito Shoten toys are generally marked with the brands AN or AHI, and it is believed that they were a division of or worked closely with Nomura. 'Shoten' means shop.



        From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 10:17:02 AM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A H I iems

         

        Like most other toy firms,
        they might have produced in Asia, but all the refs online list them as a New York based international company.

        Much of the online material about them is devoted to the legal battles between AHI and other toy firms, including Mattel, Meccano, and Mego.

        Chris B.


        ------------ -
        http://en.allexpert s.com/e/a/ az/azrak- hamway.htm

        Azrak-Hamway

        Azrak-Hamway International, Inc., was a New York toy company founded in 1964 that initially offered inexpensive novelty-type toy items. In 1974 Azrak-Hamway acquired the Remco Toy name and produced toys of more substance under the Remco brand, including several popular culture licensed items like Universal Monsters, Space 1999, Batman, Marvel Super Heroes and other TV Tie-in products. Azrak-Hamway created the Child Guidance division in 1994 in an effort to produce child learning toys. In 1997 Jakks Pacific acquires Child Guidance and Remco from Azrak-Hamway International.

        Many of the inexpensive items offered by Azrak-Hamway were licensed products that featured climbing, hanging, or parachuting figures sold on simple bubble cards.


        For toy collectors, the most significant AHI toy contribution was the Official World Famous Super Monsters toyline, licensed from Universal Studios. These toys, released in 1973 (with additional monsters added through 1976) were an effort to capitalize on the Mego Corporation' s popular Mad Monster Line. The set of 8-inch action figures included: Frankenstein, Dracula, Wolfman, Mummy and the Creature from the Black Lagoon. All except Dracula were officially licensed from Universal Studios.
        The Mego Corporation forced Azrak-Hamway to remove their line "Action Apemen" through injunction, as it was agreed to infringe on Mego's license rights to produce Planet of the Apes figures (Mego outbid AHI on the figure license, even though AHI produced many ancillary Planet of the Apes products).



        From: Daryl Olszeski <jaytewilli@hotmail. com>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 9:52:02 AM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A H I iems

         

        Yes, I also saw those when I was searching around on eBay. 

        On 5/14/2010 9:38 AM, erieberk@wmconnect. com wrote:

         

        Daryl, It appears you're right in speculating that A H I is an Asian
        manufacturer. In doing an eBay search just now, using both "AHI Train" and "AHI
        Brand," I came up with a few relatively inexpensive cast automobiles and a
        couple of very expensive lithographed tin models (one, an enclosed circus
        wagon) by them -- all stating they were made in Japan. This fact is not stated
        on their box. Ray F. W.</HTML>




        Group: vintageHO Message: 14096 From: kool57@att.net Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Model Railroaders for sale
        I have a collection of Model Railroader magazines, 1955 to present, with about eight years missing...
        They are in good to very good condition, especially considering their age. 1981 does not have covers for some reason.

        I am just 8 miles west of Indianapolis.
        I would like $180 dollars cash for more than 500 plus issues... the last decade alone cost more than that.

        Due to the weight and volume involved, it would have to be picked up from me at the local Krogers, about a quarter mile south of the I-74 on SR 267 in Brownsburg.

        If you are interested, please contact me... I need to pay some bills.

        Thank you.
        Jim
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14097 From: jim heckard Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: DMC FT unit
        W Jay W, Chris B,  All,
         
             I received the DMC engine I won on Ebay today. Very happy with it. Every major part is there including a work king motor. A little brake fluid to clean the old paint off to bring back the original bronze, some minor disassembling to clean, lube, oil, etc and I have a new prized piece for my collection.
         
            While it might be a week or two till back together and working I still can answer some questions about it. First the solid cast bronze nose piece is not the same as the DMC E units. The roof, back and nose are all cast bronze along with the side frames. Paperwork work says cast by Adams and not Adams and Son. Inside the roof are the capitol letters DMC engraved and nothing else and the letters look to be hand written. ( I'll send a picture later ). Not raised like the E units.
         
           Since I know Dallas Model Craft items were also sold under the Diesel Model Co. name I am starting to wonder who came first. A little like the chicken or the egg. I'm really starting to believe the FT was first and sold under the Diesel Model Co. name. I have a 1947 MR full page ad showing it .
         
          Last somewhere along the line a question was asked about the earliest use of a fly wheel. This DMC ad states flywheel was factory installed on a fine tuned Pittman motor.
         
           While there might be others earlier and I haven't really checked hard 1947 is pretty early.
         
                                          Jim H
         
           
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14098 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: PRR question
        I have had a question come up from an acquaintance back in Philly.

        While trainwatching, he tripped over a metal plate, and thought he had found an original marker for an OLD railroad.

        However, research at this end showed, no.

        Big plate, guessing 18-24" diameter, cast in raised letters in a curve, "PRR", 180 degrees away "T.& T.D.".

        More searching showed photos of same, and a "suspicion" that it stands for "Telegraph and Telephone Division", yet I cannot find such a division in the PRR.

        Any of you smart fellas know exactly what it means?

        Thanks.
        Dave

        http://www.trainweb.org/oldmainline/pa1.htm

        http://www.trainweb.org/oldmainline/prr/thaa01kbn.jpg
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14099 From: mittner@webtv.net Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Re: PRR question
        It description sounds like a manhole cover. The "D" is for Department,
        not Division.





        Come visit my PRR Pages:

        http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14100 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Re: PRR question
        And it looks like a manhole cover.
        Some photos show it ground level and domed, some flat, some with the standpipe partially exposed.

        The question is, what does the T&T stand for?

        T&S is Telegraph and Signal, TD is Technical Department, but try as I might, finding the meaning in print of what's on the cover has been a challenge.


        > It description sounds like a manhole cover. The "D" is for Department,
        > not Division.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Come visit my PRR Pages:
        >
        > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/PRR-pages.html
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14101 From: JimW Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Trackside Specialties L6 Parts
        So, I get beat again.

        ebay auction #190396522685 was a set of L6 castings made by my father in the late 1960's, and intended to be part of a run of his custom made locos. He could not get anyone to make a decent mechanism for it, so he sold off the castings in kits like this as a way for folks who had the Alco Models L6 could upgrade using his more detailed castings vs the 'coinings' on that model.

        I had planned to pick these up and possibly do a 'retro' L6 by making up a photoetched shell to go with the ends, and maybe sacrifice my own Alco Models L6. There was only one prototype L6 made by my father, with a mechanism that I think was made by Andeco. It's out there somewhere.

        Did anyone on this list win this auction?

        Jim Waterman - son of Vince of Trackside Specialties
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14102 From: JimW Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Re: PRR question
        The PRR pretty much designed and built anything that they couldn't easily buy. These plates were used as covers for signal manholes, usually found near towers, or interlockings. Would be interesting to figure out what was originally at the location you found the plate. Do you have a milepost location?

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have had a question come up from an acquaintance back in Philly.
        >
        > While trainwatching, he tripped over a metal plate, and thought he had found an original marker for an OLD railroad.
        >
        > However, research at this end showed, no.
        >
        > Big plate, guessing 18-24" diameter, cast in raised letters in a curve, "PRR", 180 degrees away "T.& T.D.".
        >
        > More searching showed photos of same, and a "suspicion" that it stands for "Telegraph and Telephone Division", yet I cannot find such a division in the PRR.
        >
        > Any of you smart fellas know exactly what it means?
        >
        > Thanks.
        > Dave
        >
        > http://www.trainweb.org/oldmainline/pa1.htm
        >
        > http://www.trainweb.org/oldmainline/prr/thaa01kbn.jpg
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14103 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Re: Trackside Specialties L6 Parts
        Hi Jim W.,

        I saw it but did not go after it this time [light on budget and working on enough projects at the moment [and was thinking since it was clearly identified, someone from here, maybe you or Jim H. might get it. My original thought was having a wrapper etched, using the plans that were first published in the 1940's MR Cyclopedia or others afterwards. We even have an photo-etcher as a member here. A one-off mechnism might be adapted from a four-coupled steam locomotive if the drivers and spacing were right. I'm sure if I keep looking, a set will turn up in an unlikely place at a good price - eventually, maybe even a few, lol.

        W Jay W.


        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "JimW" <Watermaj@...> wrote:
        >
        > So, I get beat again.
        >
        > ebay auction #190396522685 was a set of L6 castings made by my father in the late 1960's, and intended to be part of a run of his custom made locos. He could not get anyone to make a decent mechanism for it, so he sold off the castings in kits like this as a way for folks who had the Alco Models L6 could upgrade using his more detailed castings vs the 'coinings' on that model.
        >
        > I had planned to pick these up and possibly do a 'retro' L6 by making up a photoetched shell to go with the ends, and maybe sacrifice my own Alco Models L6. There was only one prototype L6 made by my father, with a mechanism that I think was made by Andeco. It's out there somewhere.
        >
        > Did anyone on this list win this auction?
        >
        > Jim Waterman - son of Vince of Trackside Specialties
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14104 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Re: DMC FT unit
        Hi Jim H.,

        Good to hear it arrived safely and that it is complete. Thanks for answering my question about the nose casting. That is an interesting question about the early use of flywheels - it would be interesting to see who was the first, but that would take research into the older magazines who might have reported on that innovation, older than my back issues go right now -1948-.

        I'm looking forward to seeing your "after" photos when you complete the restoration in a few weeks.

        W. Jay W.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
        >
        > W Jay W, Chris B, All,
        >
        > I received the DMC engine I won on Ebay today. Very happy with it. Every major part is there including a work king motor. A little brake fluid to clean the old paint off to bring back the original bronze, some minor disassembling to clean, lube, oil, etc and I have a new prized piece for my collection.
        >
        > While it might be a week or two till back together and working I still can answer some questions about it. First the solid cast bronze nose piece is not the same as the DMC E units. The roof, back and nose are all cast bronze along with the side frames. Paperwork work says cast by Adams and not Adams and Son. Inside the roof are the capitol letters DMC engraved and nothing else and the letters look to be hand written. ( I'll send a picture later ). Not raised like the E units.
        >
        > Since I know Dallas Model Craft items were also sold under the Diesel Model Co. name I am starting to wonder who came first. A little like the chicken or the egg. I'm really starting to believe the FT was first and sold under the Diesel Model Co. name. I have a 1947 MR full page ad showing it .
        >
        > Last somewhere along the line a question was asked about the earliest use of a fly wheel. This DMC ad states flywheel was factory installed on a fine tuned Pittman motor.
        >
        > While there might be others earlier and I haven't really checked hard 1947 is pretty early.
        >
        > Jim H
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14105 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Re: Model Hobbies Kits
        Hi Ralph B.,

        Model Hobbies had a large line of very nice wood kits, easy to build and most if not all based on prototype structures, they had a nice familiar look, perhaps more so if you were from the middle Atlantic states as I understand many were based on Penna. area buildings.

        Two are on my layout, built in the mid-to late 60's - the wood enginehouse and the feed mill. I found a kit for their "bank barn" and related farm outbuildings, it is a dead ringer for they type of barn found in eastern PA and western NJ - more accurate to the region than any modern laser kit I've seen and bidding heats up when one appears on eBay.

        The company began selling kits in the very late 1940's and lasted at least into the early to mid 1970's, maybe longer. I do not have any catalogs, save for a folder type list from a kit box. They had over thirty kits reviewed in Model Railroader and RMC over the years.

        That yard accessory building kit of yours is a nice one, too - do not have it yet. One building looks very much like a Lackawanna strucure to me

        W Jay W.


        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:
        >
        > One of the younger members (he's only in his 30s) posted a request to the model RR club I'm in:
        >
        > > Ok, I have a question for the veteran model railroaders. I was at the Flea Market in Latham this morning, and found a couple good model railroad kits (for a good price.) One of them was a wooden kit from a company called "Model Hobbies." It is kit #545, HO Yard Accessories 5 Buildings. When I search the internet for it, it only mention that the company was from the 1950's. The kit is complete, minus the instructions on how to build it. But, thankfully they look really easy.
        >
        > > Has anyone ever heard of this company or their kits?
        >
        > I told him that I have an unfinished kit by this company; my wife bought it for me as a Christmas gift back in 1970, the year we were married. I've spent litterally hours on the web looking for info on Model Hobbies. Anybody in this group have anything?
        >
        > Ralph B
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14106 From: Chris B Date: 5/17/2010
        Subject: Re: DMC FT unit
        Congratulations, sounds very promising!

        I'm sure you're right about the DMC flywheel date, but that's not my actual query, I'm trying to confirm the earliest DUAL shaft/flywheel drive setup.

        I run the OMI dual flywheel sprung truck drives in all manner of vintage diesels, and the the early Penn Model drives look like their ancestor.

        my question is about the earliest dual shaft/flywheel setup, since that also made a major improvement in delivering power to both trucks and all wheels through two separate gear towers on equal trucks,

        rather than the DMC, Hobbytown, and other early drives that used single shaft/flywheel setups to power one tower and drive truck that transferred power to the other truck through a flex shaft/coupling.

        not a burning question of the ages, but I am curious, and I do think the Penn Model drive might be the earliest, I just have no info on any earlier firm or date.

        Chris B.



        From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 1:11:43 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] DMC FT unit

         

        W Jay W, Chris B,  All,
         
             I received the DMC engine I won on Ebay today. Very happy with it. Every major part is there including a work king motor. A little brake fluid to clean the old paint off to bring back the original bronze, some minor disassembling to clean, lube, oil, etc and I have a new prized piece for my collection.
         
            While it might be a week or two till back together and working I still can answer some questions about it. First the solid cast bronze nose piece is not the same as the DMC E units. The roof, back and nose are all cast bronze along with the side frames. Paperwork work says cast by Adams and not Adams and Son. Inside the roof are the capitol letters DMC engraved and nothing else and the letters look to be hand written. ( I'll send a picture later ). Not raised like the E units.
         
           Since I know Dallas Model Craft items were also sold under the Diesel Model Co. name I am starting to wonder who came first. A little like the chicken or the egg. I'm really starting to believe the FT was first and sold under the Diesel Model Co. name. I have a 1947 MR full page ad showing it .
         
          Last somewhere along the line a question was asked about the earliest use of a fly wheel. This DMC ad states flywheel was factory installed on a fine tuned Pittman motor.
         
           While there might be others earlier and I haven't really checked hard 1947 is pretty early.
         
                                          Jim H
         
           

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14107 From: jim heckard Date: 5/18/2010
        Subject: Re: DMC FT unit
        
        Chris B,
         
             I'm sorry I misinterpreted the question you ask. Have to not only read but totally absorb the content.
         
                                                  Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Chris B
        Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 10:37 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DMC FT unit

         

        Congratulations, sounds very promising!

        I'm sure you're right about the DMC flywheel date, but that's not my actual query, I'm trying to confirm the earliest DUAL shaft/flywheel drive setup.

        I run the OMI dual flywheel sprung truck drives in all manner of vintage diesels, and the the early Penn Model drives look like their ancestor.

        my question is about the earliest dual shaft/flywheel setup, since that also made a major improvement in delivering power to both trucks and all wheels through two separate gear towers on equal trucks,

        rather than the DMC, Hobbytown, and other early drives that used single shaft/flywheel setups to power one tower and drive truck that transferred power to the other truck through a flex shaft/coupling.

        not a burning question of the ages, but I am curious, and I do think the Penn Model drive might be the earliest, I just have no info on any earlier firm or date.

        Chris B.



        From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 1:11:43 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] DMC FT unit

         

        W Jay W, Chris B,  All,
         
             I received the DMC engine I won on Ebay today. Very happy with it. Every major part is there including a work king motor. A little brake fluid to clean the old paint off to bring back the original bronze, some minor disassembling to clean, lube, oil, etc and I have a new prized piece for my collection.
         
            While it might be a week or two till back together and working I still can answer some questions about it. First the solid cast bronze nose piece is not the same as the DMC E units. The roof, back and nose are all cast bronze along with the side frames. Paperwork work says cast by Adams and not Adams and Son. Inside the roof are the capitol letters DMC engraved and nothing else and the letters look to be hand written. ( I'll send a picture later ). Not raised like the E units.
         
           Since I know Dallas Model Craft items were also sold under the Diesel Model Co. name I am starting to wonder who came first. A little like the chicken or the egg. I'm really starting to believe the FT was first and sold under the Diesel Model Co. name. I have a 1947 MR full page ad showing it .
         
          Last somewhere along the line a question was asked about the earliest use of a fly wheel. This DMC ad states flywheel was factory installed on a fine tuned Pittman motor.
         
           While there might be others earlier and I haven't really checked hard 1947 is pretty early.
         
                                          Jim H
         
           

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14108 From: Chris B Date: 5/18/2010
        Subject: Re: DMC FT unit
        No big deal at all, I just like the design of that configuration so much, if Penn Models originated it, it would be nice if they got the credit. To put an even finer point on it, Their drives, just like OMI's (and unlike current Athearn, Atlas, Etc, drives) feature a very low center of gravity design, with motors and flywheels set so low that both are in, rather than above the sill line of the frame, set between two low profile gear towers.

        This design let's me repower suydam traction coaches wit a low profile drive system that has more power than spuds or similar low profile drives.

        Chris B
        From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
        Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:34:12 -0400
        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DMC FT unit

         

        

        Chris B,
         
             I'm sorry I misinterpreted the question you ask. Have to not only read but totally absorb the content.
         
                                                  Jim H
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Chris B
        Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 10:37 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DMC FT unit

         

        Congratulations, sounds very promising!

        I'm sure you're right about the DMC flywheel date, but that's not my actual query, I'm trying to confirm the earliest DUAL shaft/flywheel drive setup.

        I run the OMI dual flywheel sprung truck drives in all manner of vintage diesels, and the the early Penn Model drives look like their ancestor.

        my question is about the earliest dual shaft/flywheel setup, since that also made a major improvement in delivering power to both trucks and all wheels through two separate gear towers on equal trucks,

        rather than the DMC, Hobbytown, and other early drives that used single shaft/flywheel setups to power one tower and drive truck that transferred power to the other truck through a flex shaft/coupling.

        not a burning question of the ages, but I am curious, and I do think the Penn Model drive might be the earliest, I just have no info on any earlier firm or date.

        Chris B.



        From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 1:11:43 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] DMC FT unit

         

        W Jay W, Chris B,  All,
         
             I received the DMC engine I won on Ebay today. Very happy with it. Every major part is there including a work king motor. A little brake fluid to clean the old paint off to bring back the original bronze, some minor disassembling to clean, lube, oil, etc and I have a new prized piece for my collection.
         
            While it might be a week or two till back together and working I still can answer some questions about it. First the solid cast bronze nose piece is not the same as the DMC E units. The roof, back and nose are all cast bronze along with the side frames. Paperwork work says cast by Adams and not Adams and Son. Inside the roof are the capitol letters DMC engraved and nothing else and the letters look to be hand written. ( I'll send a picture later ). Not raised like the E units.
         
           Since I know Dallas Model Craft items were also sold under the Diesel Model Co. name I am starting to wonder who came first. A little like the chicken or the egg. I'm really starting to believe the FT was first and sold under the Diesel Model Co. name. I have a 1947 MR full page ad showing it .
         
          Last somewhere along the line a question was asked about the earliest use of a fly wheel. This DMC ad states flywheel was factory installed on a fine tuned Pittman motor.
         
           While there might be others earlier and I haven't really checked hard 1947 is pretty early.
         
                                          Jim H
         
           

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14109 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/18/2010
        Subject: low profile drives - an lost art?
        >
        >
        > No big deal at all, I just like the design of that configuration so
        > much, if Penn Models originated it, it would be nice if they got the
        > credit. To put an even finer point on it, Their drives, just like
        > OMI's (and unlike current Athearn, Atlas, Etc, drives) feature a very
        > low center of gravity design, with motors and flywheels set so low
        > that both are in, rather than above the sill line of the frame, set
        > between two low profile gear towers.
        >
        > This design let's me repower suydam traction coaches wit a low profile
        > drive system that has more power than spuds or similar low profile drives.
        >
        > Chris
        >
        Chris,

        you have touched a sensible point... there are several examples that
        manufacturers were fit to produce low profile drives in the fifties and
        sixties, somehow it seems this knowledge has been lost.... its beyond my
        understanding why the current "state of the art" Bowser drive features a
        bulk motor which would sit prominently in the passenger compartment of
        any interurban / trolley car it is installed in??? I ordered one when
        they came out, unseen... was so frustrated that I put it back in its box
        , where it stays to this day. Maybe I will use it for a box motor some day.
        Even the old Bowser/ Penn drive was preferable ... it ran reasonably
        well when properly tuned, and could be hidden in a baggage compartment
        or with a few window shades pulled partially down.

        Gerold
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14110 From: Chris B Date: 5/18/2010
        Subject: Re: low profile drives - an lost art?
        Gerold, check out the OMI drive systems often sold on ebay.
        Overland sold thousands of theses, without shells, and made them for almost every diesel model they sold with a shell.
        Many were sold to fit railpower and other plastic shells, giving premium brass performance in a much cheaper body.
        SPRUNG TRUCKS
        HELICAL GEARS
        INFINITE SELECTION OF WHEELBASE AND AXLE CONFIGURATIONS.
        EASILY MODIFIED TO FIT OTHER UNITS

        THEY'RE NOT PERFECT, BUT THE PRICES ARE PRETTY SWEET.

        CHRIS B
        From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
        Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:37:46 +0200
        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [vintageHO] low profile drives - an lost art?

         


        >
        >
        > No big deal at all, I just like the design of that configuration so
        > much, if Penn Models originated it, it would be nice if they got the
        > credit. To put an even finer point on it, Their drives, just like
        > OMI's (and unlike current Athearn, Atlas, Etc, drives) feature a very
        > low center of gravity design, with motors and flywheels set so low
        > that both are in, rather than above the sill line of the frame, set
        > between two low profile gear towers.
        >
        > This design let's me repower suydam traction coaches wit a low profile
        > drive system that has more power than spuds or similar low profile drives.
        >
        > Chris
        >
        Chris,

        you have touched a sensible point... there are several examples that
        manufacturers were fit to produce low profile drives in the fifties and
        sixties, somehow it seems this knowledge has been lost.... its beyond my
        understanding why the current "state of the art" Bowser drive features a
        bulk motor which would sit prominently in the passenger compartment of
        any interurban / trolley car it is installed in??? I ordered one when
        they came out, unseen... was so frustrated that I put it back in its box
        , where it stays to this day. Maybe I will use it for a box motor some day.
        Even the old Bowser/ Penn drive was preferable ... it ran reasonably
        well when properly tuned, and could be hidden in a baggage compartment
        or with a few window shades pulled partially down.

        Gerold

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14111 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/18/2010
        Subject: Re: low profile drives - an lost art?
        Chris B wrote:
        >
        >
        > Gerold, check out the OMI drive systems often sold on ebay.
        > Overland sold thousands of theses, without shells, and made them for
        > almost every diesel model they sold with a shell.
        > Many were sold to fit railpower and other plastic shells, giving
        > premium brass performance in a much cheaper body.
        > SPRUNG TRUCKS
        > HELICAL GEARS
        > INFINITE SELECTION OF WHEELBASE AND AXLE CONFIGURATIONS.
        > EASILY MODIFIED TO FIT OTHER UNITS
        >
        > THEY'RE NOT PERFECT, BUT THE PRICES ARE PRETTY SWEET.
        >
        Chris,

        have several Overland locos (DL109, Milwaukee boxcabs, turbines) - they
        all have in common the individual gearboxes. Never realized there might
        be helical gears inside, thought this are worm type gears... of course I
        never opened them.
        Those drive systems have the same gearboxes?? Surely would make sense
        to buy them for parts, have many projects with odd wheelbases which
        could be powered this way My ailing Bipolars come to my mind... Thanks
        for the advice!

        Gerold
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14112 From: Chris B Date: 5/18/2010
        Subject: Re: low profile drives - an lost art?
        I think I've seen an AJIN or OMI bi polar on ebay, though it might have been O ga.
        Any way, the OMI drives all use the same drive components, so its possible to roll your own. The biggest hurdle is the sideframes.

        Unlike alco, sam, KMT, and every other maker I can think of, AJIN sideframes are not decorative castings hung on enclosed gearboxes.

        They AJin drive trains have individual gearboxes for each axle. And the ends of those axles rest in sprung journals floating in the functional sideframes.

        Not only sprung trucks, but no fixed wheel base enclosed gearboxes, so a new truck configuration only requires AJIN to tool up for a new sideframe casting, everything else for that truck comes out of the interchangeabld drive components bins!
        But its not ducksimple to make up your own custom AJIN_compatible sideframes;
        But I have always wondered why no small after mkt drive parts maker didn't try it.
        What is simple by comparison is cutting down 3 axle frames to make short whlbase 2 axle frames, I'm doing just that to repower Ivers and MEW diecast GE switcher shells

        Good luck!
        The OMI bare drive systems do run like liquid silk!
        Chris B
        From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
        Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 22:30:27 +0200
        To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] low profile drives - an lost art?

         

        Chris B wrote:

        >
        >
        > Gerold, check out the OMI drive systems often sold on ebay.
        > Overland sold thousands of theses, without shells, and made them for
        > almost every diesel model they sold with a shell.
        > Many were sold to fit railpower and other plastic shells, giving
        > premium brass performance in a much cheaper body.
        > SPRUNG TRUCKS
        > HELICAL GEARS
        > INFINITE SELECTION OF WHEELBASE AND AXLE CONFIGURATIONS.
        > EASILY MODIFIED TO FIT OTHER UNITS
        >
        > THEY'RE NOT PERFECT, BUT THE PRICES ARE PRETTY SWEET.
        >
        Chris,

        have several Overland locos (DL109, Milwaukee boxcabs, turbines) - they
        all have in common the individual gearboxes. Never realized there might
        be helical gears inside, thought this are worm type gears... of course I
        never opened them.
        Those drive systems have the same gearboxes?? Surely would make sense
        to buy them for parts, have many projects with odd wheelbases which
        could be powered this way My ailing Bipolars come to my mind... Thanks
        for the advice!

        Gerold

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14113 From: jim heckard Date: 5/18/2010
        Subject: DMC FT A unit
                  Pictured is the disassembled but now cleaned up DMC ( Diesel Model Co./ Dallas Model Craft ) FT  powered A unit I won on Ebay. . Before I assemble it you can see on the second picture the capital letters DMC in the inside of the roof  instead of the raised / embossed lettering saying Adams and Son in the E units. The DMC in this FT is odd in that it isn't perfect lettering but still looks cast in and not scratched in later ( to my eyes anyway ).
         
           W Jay W     While not the best picture( to bright ) you can see the two cast bronze noses with the FT on top is not near a long and has different detail.
         
                                                                Jim H
          @@attachment@@
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14114 From: bob d Date: 5/18/2010
        Subject: Varney F-unit on eBay
        OK, which of you old codgers started bidding on this engine? I've been watching it for a few days now and just noticed someone has dropped the gauntlet. I'm a lurker/sniper and have yet to bid.

        But, with certain recent circumstances, I may lose due to a serious lack of funds. Truck broke down, and a $7500 repair bill for that puts a definite bind in the train fund. I hope one of you fellas decide on bidding on it. At least I'll know where I can maybe obtain it when times are better if'n one if you guys win it.

        Here's the link:
        http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250632115957&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

        Bob
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14115 From: Russ Shiel Date: 5/18/2010
        Subject: Shay billboard boxcar
        H'lo All...a quick query...did anyone else make the HO Lima Shay billboard boxcar? I have an MDC/Roundhouse version, which I think was <$10. A different scheme Shay car went for $86 on auction revently...surely not MDC? Or bidding war? The seller asked me why!!
        A pic of that scheme car attached. Diecast floor sure looks like MDC.
        Chrs, Russ
          @@attachment@@
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14116 From: tom bell Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: Shay billboard boxcar [1 Attachment]
        I've got a car with what looks like the same scheme and it's defiantly MDC. Bought it a long time ago, maybe the time has come to sell.........

        Tom

        On 19 May 2010 04:26, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
         
        [Attachment(s) from Russ Shiel included below]

        H'lo All...a quick query...did anyone else make the HO Lima Shay billboard boxcar? I have an MDC/Roundhouse version, which I think was <$10. A different scheme Shay car went for $86 on auction revently...surely not MDC? Or bidding war? The seller asked me why!!
        A pic of that scheme car attached. Diecast floor sure looks like MDC.
        Chrs, Russ


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14117 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit
        Hi Jim. H.,

        Wow, it is hard to believe it is the same locomotive you showed a few days ago - great job on cleaning it, kit illustration and preparing it for assembly.

        I am saving those phtos, particularly the inside view of the shell's DMC for comparison when another is found - from the photos, my first impression is that it looks original.

        Thanks for the comparison photo, I can clearly see the differences in the two castings. Not being familiar with either model, I had thought maybe the manufacturer may have taken a short cut, but can now see that was not the case as the E unit nose is completely different from the "bulldog" FT nose.

        Lastly, I have to ask, Jim, what is your secret for cleaning your models to present them in original condition? It is something that I noticed in your collection when I looked though your first album when I joined. Many vintage models are covered in layers of old paint and grime, and I have a couple of hobbytown of Bostn E-6 shells that have defied removal of the remaining paint despite different methods.

        W Jay W.



        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
        >
        > Pictured is the disassembled but now cleaned up DMC ( Diesel Model Co./ Dallas Model Craft ) FT powered A unit I won on Ebay. . Before I assemble it you can see on the second picture the capital letters DMC in the inside of the roof instead of the raised / embossed lettering saying Adams and Son in the E units. The DMC in this FT is odd in that it isn't perfect lettering but still looks cast in and not scratched in later ( to my eyes anyway ).
        >
        > W Jay W While not the best picture( to bright ) you can see the two cast bronze noses with the FT on top is not near a long and has different detail.
        >
        > Jim H
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14118 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit
            W Jay W, All,
         
              There are so many times I wish that I had taken before and after pictures of items I have redone. I took this picture for inclusion in the Gallery section of hoseeker. After it's together I will take a completed one for there to.
         
              I have to take apart my already assembled B unit to see if there is a mark in the top of it. Another thing is the B unit is not cast bronze but is still DMC.  It looks like more of a  aluminum ? cast. Same molds, different run ?
         
             As for the clean look of my trains. It is one of the things that to me makes my collection "stand out" and I take great pride in it.
        Of course I don't touch factory painted items unless it would happen to be the only copy of something I want available. Getting one of each item is my first priority.  Any item that was repainted or originally was undecorated metal / brass  hits the brake fluid for what ever time is needed depending on the paint on it. Some are a little harder and some need a "scrubbing " with a brass brush. If the paint still doesn't move a dip in a paint remover is called for. Then a good wash of  dish detergent and rinse off. Then comes the time consuming part. Using a small screwdriver, a pointed Exacto knife blade and a sharp pointed piece of metal  I pick out anything that is imbedded in the corners or the detail. A lot comes out easy but some takes a little prodding plus using a small brass wheel or brush for final clean up..
         
            Most of the time after this has been done I usually leave the item to show off it's original metal. I have found a compound called Twinkle that is great for shinning up anything from brass to bronze. Dip a wet toothbrush in the paste and scrub hard what you are trying to shine or take discoloration off of. Then reclean with soap and water and leave dry. Whatever is in this Twinkle seems to hold back any tarnish for a while.
         
             If I intend to paint these original undecorated items I do not use the Twinkle. Bad for holding paint. While I sometimes paint any type of metal I just clean with the dish detergent, rinse off in hot water and let dry. I have never used an undercoat on any item I have painted even brass and have never had a peeling problem and I can show brass items that have been painted 20 years. I use all spray cans of paint  especially Krylon brand because I don't have or never have used an air brush and I think you have seen the quality of my painted items. Lucky I guess.
         
            As for the Hobbytown (metal ) shells you would need a paint remover  ( I use an Eco friendly brand ) , let sit for 48 hours and a brass or even metal brush for what remains. A pair of rubber gloves and eye protection and some elbow grease.
         
             I'm sure others have their ways but what I have described works for me.
         
                                             Jim H
         
         
           
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:34 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit

         

        Hi Jim. H.,

        Wow, it is hard to believe it is the same locomotive you showed a few days ago - great job on cleaning it, kit illustration and preparing it for assembly.

        I am saving those phtos, particularly the inside view of the shell's DMC for comparison when another is found - from the photos, my first impression is that it looks original.

        Thanks for the comparison photo, I can clearly see the differences in the two castings. Not being familiar with either model, I had thought maybe the manufacturer may have taken a short cut, but can now see that was not the case as the E unit nose is completely different from the "bulldog" FT nose.

        Lastly, I have to ask, Jim, what is your secret for cleaning your models to present them in original condition? It is something that I noticed in your collection when I looked though your first album when I joined. Many vintage models are covered in layers of old paint and grime, and I have a couple of hobbytown of Bostn E-6 shells that have defied removal of the remaining paint despite different methods.

        W Jay W.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
        >
        > Pictured is the disassembled but now cleaned up DMC ( Diesel Model Co./ Dallas Model Craft ) FT powered A unit I won on Ebay. . Before I assemble it you can see on the second picture the capital letters DMC in the inside of the roof instead of the raised / embossed lettering saying Adams and Son in the E units. The DMC in this FT is odd in that it isn't perfect lettering but still looks cast in and not scratched in later ( to my eyes anyway ).
        >
        > W Jay W While not the best picture( to bright ) you can see the two cast bronze noses with the FT on top is not near a long and has different detail.
        >
        > Jim H
        >

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14119 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: One correction, one addition
              W Jay W, All,
         
                    Must make one correction and one addition to the previous Email below. Sometimes I just have to much stuff to remember everything and add to that to old and decrepit to walk down to the basement to check before writing.
         
                 My DMC  FT Dummy B unit does have the same cast bronze roof and ends as the A unit. Not aluminum as I thought and mentioned. My mistake and I apologize.These are the kinds of mistakes I should not make as they then get a life of their own. Again both my DMC FT  A&B units are the same cast bronze roofs and ends.
         
                Now for the addition. I took the Dummy B unit apart to see what would be cast under the roof. There are two separate little rectangular raised boxes in the middle under the roof. To one side the raised letters DALLAS ( on top of the raised rectangle ) and
        MODELCRAFT ( one word ) raised on the other rectangular box.  This is entirely different then the A unit and also the E units where the name Adams and Son is. It would have been easier to take a picture then try to explain.
         
                                                      Jim H
         
               
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 9:08 AM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit

            W Jay W, All,
         
              There are so many times I wish that I had taken before and after pictures of items I have redone. I took this picture for inclusion in the Gallery section of hoseeker. After it's together I will take a completed one for there to.
         
              I have to take apart my already assembled B unit to see if there is a mark in the top of it. Another thing is the B unit is not cast bronze but is still DMC.  It looks like more of a  aluminum ? cast. Same molds, different run ?
         
             As for the clean look of my trains. It is one of the things that to me makes my collection "stand out" and I take great pride in it.
        Of course I don't touch factory painted items unless it would happen to be the only copy of something I want available. Getting one of each item is my first priority.  Any item that was repainted or originally was undecorated metal / brass  hits the brake fluid for what ever time is needed depending on the paint on it. Some are a little harder and some need a "scrubbing " with a brass brush. If the paint still doesn't move a dip in a paint remover is called for. Then a good wash of  dish detergent and rinse off. Then comes the time consuming part. Using a small screwdriver, a pointed Exacto knife blade and a sharp pointed piece of metal  I pick out anything that is imbedded in the corners or the detail. A lot comes out easy but some takes a little prodding plus using a small brass wheel or brush for final clean up..
         
            Most of the time after this has been done I usually leave the item to show off it's original metal. I have found a compound called Twinkle that is great for shinning up anything from brass to bronze. Dip a wet toothbrush in the paste and scrub hard what you are trying to shine or take discoloration off of. Then reclean with soap and water and leave dry. Whatever is in this Twinkle seems to hold back any tarnish for a while.
         
             If I intend to paint these original undecorated items I do not use the Twinkle. Bad for holding paint. While I sometimes paint any type of metal I just clean with the dish detergent, rinse off in hot water and let dry. I have never used an undercoat on any item I have painted even brass and have never had a peeling problem and I can show brass items that have been painted 20 years. I use all spray cans of paint  especially Krylon brand because I don't have or never have used an air brush and I think you have seen the quality of my painted items. Lucky I guess.
         
            As for the Hobbytown (metal ) shells you would need a paint remover  ( I use an Eco friendly brand ) , let sit for 48 hours and a brass or even metal brush for what remains. A pair of rubber gloves and eye protection and some elbow grease.
         
             I'm sure others have their ways but what I have described works for me.
         
                                             Jim H
         
         
           
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:34 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit

         

        Hi Jim. H.,

        Wow, it is hard to believe it is the same locomotive you showed a few days ago - great job on cleaning it, kit illustration and preparing it for assembly.

        I am saving those phtos, particularly the inside view of the shell's DMC for comparison when another is found - from the photos, my first impression is that it looks original.

        Thanks for the comparison photo, I can clearly see the differences in the two castings. Not being familiar with either model, I had thought maybe the manufacturer may have taken a short cut, but can now see that was not the case as the E unit nose is completely different from the "bulldog" FT nose.

        Lastly, I have to ask, Jim, what is your secret for cleaning your models to present them in original condition? It is something that I noticed in your collection when I looked though your first album when I joined. Many vintage models are covered in layers of old paint and grime, and I have a couple of hobbytown of Bostn E-6 shells that have defied removal of the remaining paint despite different methods.

        W Jay W.

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
        >
        > Pictured is the disassembled but now cleaned up DMC ( Diesel Model Co./ Dallas Model Craft ) FT powered A unit I won on Ebay. . Before I assemble it you can see on the second picture the capital letters DMC in the inside of the roof instead of the raised / embossed lettering saying Adams and Son in the E units. The DMC in this FT is odd in that it isn't perfect lettering but still looks cast in and not scratched in later ( to my eyes anyway ).
        >
        > W Jay W While not the best picture( to bright ) you can see the two cast bronze noses with the FT on top is not near a long and has different detail.
        >
        > Jim H
        >

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14120 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Catalog
         
         
        W Jay W,
         
         
             I bought that odd Mantua catalog after all since it was  "Buy it now"  and I didn't have to bid. I'll let you know more about it after it gets here,. Should be quick if its Lewisburg PA as that is only about 45 minutes from here.
         
                                                                                                       Jim H
         
                                   
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14121 From: rcjge Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's
        Seriously Guys:

        have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)

        http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67

        Who'd a thunk it!!!???

        -Gareth
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14122 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
        If this keeps up, my grand kids will be rich, one day.  

        --- On Wed, 5/19/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

        From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's WAY BACK!
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 7:56 PM

         
        Seriously Guys:

        have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)

        http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67

        Who'd a thunk it!!!???

        -Gareth


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14123 From: rcjge Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
        The title should say way back into the dawn of time!

        -Gareth

        -
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14124 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
        What I with the $0.20 anyway. Why not $150?

        Sent from my iPhone

        On May 19, 2010, at 8:56 PM, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

         

        Seriously Guys:

        have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)

        http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67

        Who'd a thunk it!!!???

        -Gareth


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14125 From: jim heckard Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
        
            This listing is almost as bad as the Australian fellow selling the rare Varney 1936 Triplex
         
                                                                                         Jim H
         
                                                                                             
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 9:08 PM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's WAY BACK!

         

        If this keeps up, my grand kids will be rich, one day.  

        --- On Wed, 5/19/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@gmail. com> wrote:

        From: rcjge <jgpedwards@gmail. com>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's WAY BACK!
        To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
        Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 7:56 PM

         
        Seriously Guys:

        have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!! ! ;-)

        http://cgi.ebay. com/Mantua- Union-Pacific- Steam-Locomotive -Rare-1920s- /290436803175? cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_ Trains&hash=item439f61ea67

        Who'd a thunk it!!!???

        -Gareth


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14126 From: Neal Chapman Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: (no subject)
        I have a "new" roundhouse #1012 one..36'       box marked 3.25 changed to 3.00
         

        Neal W. Chapman, NMRA 141236

        St Paul, Mn. 55113




        <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>  

        EAST OVERSHOE RAILROAD, NMRA REG # 09-002

        EAST OVERSHOE JUNCTION

        EAST OVERSHOE YARDS AND SHOPS

        EAST OVERSHOE LOGGING COMPANY



        Group: vintageHO Message: 14127 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
        I sent this quack a scathing message, I couldn't stand it any longer, it isn't ebay's fault, the guy at best may "NOT" know anything about trains, at worst, he's the scum of the earth!
         
        Gary W
         

         
        Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



        From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, May 19, 2010 8:56:11 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's WAY BACK!

         

        Seriously Guys:

        have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)

        http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67

        Who'd a thunk it!!!???

        -Gareth


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14128 From: bearbon Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
        Hobbytown of Boston is still owned by Bear Locomotive but no longer produces kits since all the old suppliers of machined parts (shafts, gears, wheels)went out of business. Attempts to have these parts made by modern machine shops at a reasonable price were unsuccessful, making it financially impossible to continue business. I approached several of the large manufacturers like Bowser, NWSL and Walthers to see if they were interested in taking over the hobbytown line but they declined. Seems there's not enough profit in "old technology" craftsman kits when the Chinese ready-to-run stuff is selling like hotcakes.

        I would love to find someone with the interest and resources to continue making the hobbytown kits available. Ideally it would be someone with a manufacturing background and an interest in the product. All the diecasting moulds still exist, including the dies for the Lindsay FA/FB and PA body shells. I hope this response will help.

        Sincerely, Howard Mosley

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nycepeter" <peternyce@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Everyone,
        >
        > Does any one know to whom Howard Mosley sold all the Hobbytown of
        > Boston kits and parts when he ceased to produce the line? Howard was
        > the last owner of Hobbytown and was (is?) involved with Bear
        > Locomotive in Whiting NJ, but their website shows no reference to
        > Hobbytown. As a matter of fact, "bearlocomotive.com" just looks like
        > an index, pointing to other sites.
        >
        > He must have had tons of stuff when he closed down and it seems to
        > have disappeared into thin air.
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14129 From: bob d Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
        I filed a fraud complaint with eBay. Not that it will do much good. eBay brodasts to users to alert them to such things, but seem to turn a blind eye when such is reported.

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
        >
        > Seriously Guys:
        >
        > have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67
        >
        > Who'd a thunk it!!!???
        >
        > -Gareth
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14130 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
        I see the price has dropped significantly

        --- On Wed, 5/19/10, bob d <fishntrains@...> wrote:

        From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's WAY BACK!
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 11:21 PM

         
        I filed a fraud complaint with eBay. Not that it will do much good. eBay brodasts to users to alert them to such things, but seem to turn a blind eye when such is reported.

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
        >
        > Seriously Guys:
        >
        > have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67
        >
        > Who'd a thunk it!!!???
        >
        > -Gareth
        >


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14131 From: bob d Date: 5/19/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
        The seller also changed the title description

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
        >
        > Seriously Guys:
        >
        > have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67
        >
        > Who'd a thunk it!!!???
        >
        > -Gareth
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14132 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 5/20/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
        Hey, guys, I'm not happy about apparent scams either, but the comments I'm reading about this over-priced Tyco loco make me think that some of you have not spent much time checking out eBay items and the methods used to sell stuff. They are hardly new either on eBay or other places in the selling world. I find it curious that some think that sellers on eBay would or should realistically be somehow more pure in their approach. I'm tempted to use the word "naive" here, but I don't want to insult anyone. . . .  In any case, it's like anywhere else: you have to know your stuff and be knowledgeable about what you're bidding on. In some cases you do have to trust the seller, and I've been burned on occasion myself, but the level of dismay expressed in some of the comments made on this site are a bit curious. . . . 
        Art 
         
        In a message dated 5/20/2010 12:44:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, anaidni62@... writes:


        I see the price has dropped significantly

        --- On Wed, 5/19/10, bob d <fishntrains@...> wrote:

        From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's WAY BACK!
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 11:21 PM

         
        I filed a fraud complaint with eBay. Not that it will do much good. eBay brodasts to users to alert them to such things, but seem to turn a blind eye when such is reported.

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
        >
        > Seriously Guys:
        >
        > have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67
        >
        > Who'd a thunk it!!!???
        >
        > -Gareth
        >


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14133 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/20/2010
        Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
        Hello Howard M., All,
         
        Good hearing from you Howard, even if the update brings no new news.  Hopefully someone will someday soon be able to continue in your footsteps, as you accomblished much in your [too few] years as owner to renew the spirit of hobbytown of Boston and bring it to some of the next generation to enjoy as well; as I do with my newest RS-3 that I purchased from you near the end. 
         
        Do no know if you and others are aware of it, but even though you could not keep up your extensive hobbytown of Boston website, it has been archived by the worldwide "Internet Archives Project" and most of it, including the locomotive and extensive parts illustrations are available for reference through the "Wayback Machine" - click on this link:
         
         
        It was two of the unpowered plastic hobbytown RS-3 kits discovered on a dealers shelf as a young teen modeler circa 1963-64 that put the company on the map for me, even though they were unpowered.  I painted them in Erie colors, as at that time we had twelve commuter trains though town each day and at least ten had RS-3's leading the unique Stillwell coaches.  On my early layout, though the unpowered RS-'s had to be lead by other powered, lesser locomotives.  I did upgrade the trucks, though to cast metal from Kemtron.
         
        I now have found four of those 1950's narrow frame hobbytown drive chassis for the plastic bodied RS-3, three of the metal geared 360K four axle chassis and one of the 370K six axle chassis, both introduced in March of 1957 and sold for a short while.  It was great fun eventually seeing my original models powered with the matching hobbytown chassis, though now I have retired those hand panted bodies in favor of new old stock ones, being detailed to Erie practice with Erie and E-L specific cast brass details from CalScale and Custom Finishes. The six axle unit is being detailed to CNJ practice of the units assiged to their CRP lines [in Pennsylvania].
         
        Thanks again for your work on preserving hobbytown for the hobby and for all the assistance and courtesies extended to me over the last few years as well.
         
        Best wishes for the future,
         
        W. Jay W.
         
         
         
         
         

         


        From: bearbon <bearbon@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, May 19, 2010 11:28:38 PM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown of Boston

         



        Hobbytown of Boston is still owned by Bear Locomotive but no longer produces kits since all the old suppliers of machined parts (shafts, gears, wheels)went out of business. Attempts to have these parts made by modern machine shops at a reasonable price were unsuccessful, making it financially impossible to continue business. I approached several of the large manufacturers like Bowser, NWSL and Walthers to see if they were interested in taking over the hobbytown line but they declined. Seems there's not enough profit in "old technology" craftsman kits when the Chinese ready-to-run stuff is selling like hotcakes.

        I would love to find someone with the interest and resources to continue making the hobbytown kits available. Ideally it would be someone with a manufacturing background and an interest in the product. All the diecasting moulds still exist, including the dies for the Lindsay FA/FB and PA body shells. I hope this response will help.

        Sincerely, Howard Mosley

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nycepeter" <peternyce@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Everyone,
        >
        > Does any one know to whom Howard Mosley sold all the Hobbytown of
        > Boston kits and parts when he ceased to produce the line? Howard was
        > the last owner of Hobbytown and was (is?) involved with Bear
        > Locomotive in Whiting NJ, but their website shows no reference to
        > Hobbytown. As a matter of fact, "bearlocomotive.com" just looks like
        > an index, pointing to other sites.
        >
        > He must have had tons of stuff when he closed down and it seems to
        > have disappeared into thin air.


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14134 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/20/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
        I have looked at the listing a couple of times and fail to see anything dishonest.  He says the loco was ca. 1970.  I think that anyone knowledgeable would be familiar with a fair price and those not in the collecting mode would think it too high.   On occasion I have made--"if you don't sell it for that, I'll offer---" offers with what I consider a fair price.  This guy seems to be a camera dealer, not a train guy--and is caught up in that "if it's an old train it must be valuable--"  definitely not in a league with that triplex
         
        gj
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: luvprr@...
        Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 4:50 AM
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...

        Hey, guys, I'm not happy about apparent scams either, but the comments I'm reading about this over-priced Tyco loco make me think that some of you have not spent much time checking out eBay items and the methods used to sell stuff. They are hardly new either on eBay or other places in the selling world. I find it curious that some think that sellers on eBay would or should realistically be somehow more pure in their approach. I'm tempted to use the word "naive" here, but I don't want to insult anyone. . . .  In any case, it's like anywhere else: you have to know your stuff and be knowledgeable about what you're bidding on. In some cases you do have to trust the seller, and I've been burned on occasion myself, but the level of dismay expressed in some of the comments made on this site are a bit curious. . . . 
        Art 
         
        In a message dated 5/20/2010 12:44:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, anaidni62@... writes:


        I see the price has dropped significantly

        --- On Wed, 5/19/10, bob d <fishntrains@...> wrote:

        From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
        Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's WAY BACK!
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 11:21 PM

         
        I filed a fraud complaint with eBay. Not that it will do much good. eBay brodasts to users to alert them to such things, but seem to turn a blind eye when such is reported.

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
        >
        > Seriously Guys:
        >
        > have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67
        >
        > Who'd a thunk it!!!???
        >
        > -Gareth
        >


        Group: vintageHO Message: 14135 From: bob d Date: 5/20/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
        Art, you got to the fight too late. The broohaha was over. He changed his listing. The seller was claiming the engine was from the 1920's. I've got a couple of engines just like the one shown. Not even from the 1970's but maybe the mid 1980's at best.

        Bob

        --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
        >
        > Hey, guys, I'm not happy about apparent scams either, but the comments I'm
        > reading about this over-priced Tyco loco make me think that some of you
        > have not spent much time checking out eBay items and the methods used to sell
        > stuff. They are hardly new either on eBay or other places in the selling
        > world. I find it curious that some think that sellers on eBay would or should
        > realistically be somehow more pure in their approach. I'm tempted to use
        > the word "naive" here, but I don't want to insult anyone. . . . In any
        > case, it's like anywhere else: you have to know your stuff and be knowledgeable
        > about what you're bidding on. In some cases you do have to trust the
        > seller, and I've been burned on occasion myself, but the level of dismay
        > expressed in some of the comments made on this site are a bit curious. . . .
        > Art
        >
        > In a message dated 5/20/2010 12:44:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        > anaidni62@... writes:
        >
        >
        >
        > I see the price has dropped significantly
        >
        > --- On Wed, 5/19/10, bob d <fishntrains@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
        > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers
        > were making HO Loco's WAY BACK!
        > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Wednesday, May 19, 2010, 11:21 PM
        >
        >
        >
        > I filed a fraud complaint with eBay. Not that it will do much good. eBay
        > brodasts to users to alert them to such things, but seem to turn a blind eye
        > when such is reported.
        >
        > Bob
        >
        > --- In _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_
        > (http://us.mc1135.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vintageHO@yahoogroups.com) , "rcjge" <jgpedwards@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Seriously Guys:
        > >
        > > have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco
        > Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable
        > saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)
        > >
        > >
        > _http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67_
        > (http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=V
        > iewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67)
        > >
        > > Who'd a thunk it!!!???
        > >
        > > -Gareth
        > >
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14136 From: jim heckard Date: 5/20/2010
        Subject: Evilbay Mantua Engine
        Glenn,
         
            I think what caught everyone's eye was the seller originally had the listing as a rare 1920 Mantua engine and the asking price was around $400. Seller has now lowered his price and changed his description to circa 1970.
         
             I have no problem with any seller asking any price he wants.  As for the listing description being right or wrong it's  "Caveat Emptor" ( Buyer Beware ) although sometimes it can get a little outlandish.
         
                                                   Jim H
           
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14137 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/20/2010
        Subject: Re: Evilbay Mantua Engine
        Guys,
         
        When I modeled in O scale, there was this guy who put an Atlas O scale F9 on ebay, claiming it was the from the 1950's, (claimed he had the original reciept too), a friend of mine and I let him know that it was from the 1970's, since Atlas didn't bring those in until the early 70's, the guy got nasty about it, claimed he had the original reciept from 1955, of course he was asking some outlandish price for it, those old plastic F9's just aren't worth anywhere near what he was asking, so he was scamming, it may have become evident to that seller since there were other Atlas F9's listed that same week for much less money, that what he had wasn't all that valueble.
         
        This camera guy made a correction, which of course, means he knows nothing about trains, which is fine of course, sometimes all one needs is a little education.........:o)
         
        Gary W
         

         
        Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



        From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, May 20, 2010 11:42:07 AM
        Subject: [vintageHO] Evilbay Mantua Engine

         

        Glenn,
         
            I think what caught everyone's eye was the seller originally had the listing as a rare 1920 Mantua engine and the asking price was around $400. Seller has now lowered his price and changed his description to circa 1970.
         
             I have no problem with any seller asking any price he wants.  As for the listing description being right or wrong it's  "Caveat Emptor" ( Buyer Beware ) although sometimes it can get a little outlandish.
         
                                                   Jim H
           

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14138 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/20/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
        While even at the price it's listed for right now, it's still way out of
        line -- but as he seems to be more familiar with cameras than he is with
        trains so perhaps this is a case of him just being naive in what they're worth.
        One thing that has me on the fence about this possibility though, is why he
        dropped his price so much if he was so sure it is worth what he originally
        had it posted for, and now he took a very different stance. He may have seen
        the Mantua Pacifics that were posted by "Ominmodels" and figured he should
        get as much (unless Omni posted his later). I do see a good number of
        Mantua Pacifics posted by this "Omnimodels" seller, as "Buy Now" for $149.95. I
        also see one (or two?) priced at $179 (UP Grey w/Vandy tender) and one
        priced at $169 (B&O Presidential), but these were special runs.

        The $149.95 ones are CN, NP, CP, PRR, ATSF and a UP Grey Goose -- a few
        with special paint. Some of these look to possibly be of the factory built and
        painted "Mantua Mark II" series that were also factory super detailed, but
        I don't know about those that appear to be more common. He has 10 PRR
        Pacifics available and 10 ATSF Pacifics available -- don't all of you guys rush
        to buy them all up now! I didn't check out all of his the auctions however.

        I see a UP Pacific very similar to the one being offered by "camera$" at
        $10.49 (with 2 bids) and another at $19.95 (with one bid). I would not be
        very surprised if the model that "camera$" is offering is one of the most
        numerous models produced by any engine manufacturer; they used to be a dime a
        dozen, and still must be very common today. I probably have half a dozen
        Mantua Pacifics and another half dozen Mikados that I've acquired from back
        then, at train shows for about $5 each.. I guess I don't know the fortune I'm
        sitting on < g >. Not bad runners though, as were all Mantua models even
        from that era. Ray F. W.</HTML>
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14139 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/20/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
        For what it is worth on the matter, my friend Bud, who is about 90 and lives up by the Boy Scout camp I work at on weekends (He also works at camp too), had a Mantua/Tyco mikado, and also thought it was worth a small fortune. He genuinely did not know they are common. I suspect as others do here, that the seller of this locomotive, had a case of 'it is a train, and it is fairly old, so it is worth money'.

        I do like the Mantua Mikes and Pacifics, and enjoy running them and rebuilding them too. Got a few Mikes that have had their heavy style boilers removed, and replaced with lighter Pacfic boilers, and Bowser 32' USRA style tenders behind them now. The 12 wheel plastic tenders they originally had, were traded at the hobby shop on the die cast Bowser tenders.

        All in all, this is not in the same vein as 'Mr. Triplex' at all.

        Just my two cents, if it is even worth that much.

        -Steve Neubaum

        --- On Thu, 5/20/10, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:

        From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
        Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
        To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010, 12:14 PM

         

        While even at the price it's listed for right now, it's still way out of
        line -- but as he seems to be more familiar with cameras than he is with
        trains so perhaps this is a case of him just being naive in what they're worth.
        One thing that has me on the fence about this possibility though, is why he
        dropped his price so much if he was so sure it is worth what he originally
        had it posted for, and now he took a very different stance. He may have seen
        the Mantua Pacifics that were posted by "Ominmodels" and figured he should
        get as much (unless Omni posted his later). I do see a good number of
        Mantua Pacifics posted by this "Omnimodels" seller, as "Buy Now" for $149.95. I
        also see one (or two?) priced at $179 (UP Grey w/Vandy tender) and one
        priced at $169 (B&O Presidential), but these were special runs.

        The $149.95 ones are CN, NP, CP, PRR, ATSF and a UP Grey Goose -- a few
        with special paint. Some of these look to possibly be of the factory built and
        painted "Mantua Mark II" series that were also factory super detailed, but
        I don't know about those that appear to be more common. He has 10 PRR
        Pacifics available and 10 ATSF Pacifics available -- don't all of you guys rush
        to buy them all up now! I didn't check out all of his the auctions however.

        I see a UP Pacific very similar to the one being offered by "camera$" at
        $10.49 (with 2 bids) and another at $19.95 (with one bid). I would not be
        very surprised if the model that "camera$" is offering is one of the most
        numerous models produced by any engine manufacturer; they used to be a dime a
        dozen, and still must be very common today. I probably have half a dozen
        Mantua Pacifics and another half dozen Mikados that I've acquired from back
        then, at train shows for about $5 each.. I guess I don't know the fortune I'm
        sitting on < g >. Not bad runners though, as were all Mantua models even
        from that era. Ray F. W.</HTML>

        Group: vintageHO Message: 14140 From: John H Date: 5/20/2010
        Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
        I missed the early, uncorrected posting so I wondered what everyone was talking about at first.

        As why he is still asking the price he is, checkout his other listings. I am not a camera expert but have some knowledge. They are all "buy now" or have minimums and none of the prices are a deal. I don't know how he has managed to sell as much as he has but since most of it I would guess did not include trains, who cares?

        So far as the price he is currently asking, I don't care about that either. As stated, they have been priced higher. And, also as stated, there are others selling at much lower prices, so there is no reason for anyone to get hosed on this deal. If a potential buyer does not make the effort the search further than he/she is one of those "sucker(s) born every minute" as described by P. T. Barnum and will get taken by someone, somewhere (ebay, rummage sale, used car lot, etc., etc.) and there is really nothing we can do about it.

        John Hagen

        >
        >
        > While even at the price it's listed for right now, it's still way out of
        >
        > line -- but as he seems to be more familiar with cameras than he is with
        >
        > trains so perhaps this is a case of him just being naive in what they're worth.
        >
        > One thing that has me on the fence about this possibility though, is why he
        >
        > dropped his price so much if he was so sure it is worth what he originally
        >
        > had it posted for, and now he took a very different stance. He may have seen
        >
        > the Mantua Pacifics that were posted by "Ominmodels" and figured he should
        >
        > get as much (unless Omni posted his later). I do see a good number of
        >
        > Mantua Pacifics posted by this "Omnimodels" seller, as "Buy Now" for $149.95. I
        >
        > also see one (or two?) priced at $179 (UP Grey w/Vandy tender) and one
        >
        > priced at $169 (B&O Presidential), but these were special runs.
        >
        >
        >
        > The $149.95 ones are CN, NP, CP, PRR, ATSF and a UP Grey Goose -- a few
        >
        > with special paint. Some of these look to possibly be of the factory built and
        >
        > painted "Mantua Mark II" series that were also factory super detailed, but
        >
        > I don't know about those that appear to be more common. He has 10 PRR
        >
        > Pacifics available and 10 ATSF Pacifics available -- don't all of you guys rush
        >
        > to buy them all up now! I didn't check out all of his the auctions however.
        >
        >
        >
        > I see a UP Pacific very similar to the one being offered by "camera$" at
        >
        > $10.49 (with 2 bids) and another at $19.95 (with one bid). I would not be
        >
        > very surprised if the model that "camera$" is offering is one of the most
        >
        > numerous models produced by any engine manufacturer; they used to be a dime a
        >
        > dozen, and still must be very common today. I probably have half a dozen
        >
        > Mantua Pacifics and another half dozen Mikados that I've acquired from back
        >
        > then, at train shows for about $5 each.. I guess I don't know the fortune I'm
        >
        > sitting on < g >. Not bad runners though, as were all Mantua models even
        >
        > from that era. Ray F. W.</HTML>
        >
        Group: vintageHO Message: 14141 From: jim heckard Date: 5/20/2010
        Subject: Low profile dual drive dual flywheel
        Attachments :
          Chris B,
           
             Wondering if this  Pennsylvania Scale Model drive with dual drive motor, dual flywheels, dual geared towers and low profile fits the bill when you previously asked about any others like Hobbytown and I misread.  ?
           
                                          Jim H
          Group: vintageHO Message: 14142 From: Chris B Date: 5/20/2010
          Subject: Re: Low profile dual drive dual flywheel
          Jim, this PSM drive is the one I showed when I first asked the question! (G)
          From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
          Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:56:57 -0400
          To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [vintageHO] Low profile dual drive dual flywheel

           

          Chris B,
           
             Wondering if this  Pennsylvania Scale Model drive with dual drive motor, dual flywheels, dual geared towers and low profile fits the bill when you previously asked about any others like Hobbytown and I misread.  ?
           
                                          Jim H
          Group: vintageHO Message: 14143 From: RalphB Date: 5/20/2010
          Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston
          Howard,

          You're probably the gentleman I talked to at the Springfield (Mass) show a few years ago. What I was looking for, and what W. Jay W. has, were some power units for the old plastic RS-3, but you said they'd been out of production for quite some time. Sorry to hear you can't produce the other kits either.

          I started to do one of the RS-3s in the NYC "cigar band" scheme - real easy since the basic color is the color of the plastic body: black. The second unit never made it out of the box.

          Interestingly, I frequently drove through Whiting when going to and from the South Jersey Pine Barrens for canoe and camping trips. I'd drive along the CNJ's Southern Division on Palestine Rd/Savoy Blvd between Wheatland and Chatsworth.

          Ralph B

          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Howard Mosley wrote:
          >
          > Hobbytown of Boston is still owned by Bear Locomotive but no longer produces kits since all the old suppliers of machined parts (shafts, gears, wheels)went out of business.
          Group: vintageHO Message: 14144 From: RalphB Date: 5/21/2010
          Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
          You guys shouldn't be getting yourselves in such a tither. The Mantua Pacific was listed in the 2000 Walthers catalog at $234.99, and it was available lettered for RDG, WM, CP, and PRR. Personally, I thought that was too high even then.

          Ralph B
          Group: vintageHO Message: 14145 From: comox11 Date: 5/21/2010
          Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
          I'm surprised none of you have gotten up in arms about Sakura Docksiders going for $250 or better.......what something is worth is what some sucker will pay..... is what the used car dealer told me, we do live in a free market economy don't we. Sitting here mildly amused Guy

          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bob d" <fishntrains@...> wrote:
          >
          > The seller also changed the title description
          >
          > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Seriously Guys:
          > >
          > > have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)
          > >
          > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67
          > >
          > > Who'd a thunk it!!!???
          > >
          > > -Gareth
          > >
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 14146 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/21/2010
          Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
          I saw a Sakura Docksider sell a couple of months ago for over $500...
           
          I have to agree, if someone is willing to pay it, why not?


          From: comox11 <ghbrooke@...>
          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, May 21, 2010 12:28:38 PM
          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's WAY BACK

           

          I'm surprised none of you have gotten up in arms about Sakura Docksiders going for $250 or better.......what something is worth is what some sucker will pay..... is what the used car dealer told me, we do live in a free market economy don't we. Sitting here mildly amused Guy

          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bob d" <fishntrains@...> wrote:
          >
          > The seller also changed the title description
          >
          > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Seriously Guys:
          > >
          > > have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!!! ;-)
          > >
          > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Mantua-Union-Pacific-Steam-Locomotive-Rare-1920s-/290436803175?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item439f61ea67
          > >
          > > Who'd a thunk it!!!???
          > >
          > > -Gareth
          > >
          >


          Group: vintageHO Message: 14147 From: Chris B Date: 5/21/2010
          Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loc
          I have to agree. 

          It's a lot like buying or selling antique pickups or vintage muscle cars, and watching the prices change over decades.

          If you're trying to buy a particular model, you hate to see the prices rise.

          If you're trying to sell one you bought years ago for less,
          you don't have the same reaction,
          because you need the big profit to buy a different car,

          because the prices for that one have gone up too!

          Chris B.





          From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
          To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, May 21, 2010 12:30:57 PM
          Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's WAY BACK

           

          I saw a Sakura Docksider sell a couple of months ago for over $500...
           
          I have to agree, if someone is willing to pay it, why not?


          From: comox11 <ghbrooke@shaw. ca>
          To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
          Sent: Fri, May 21, 2010 12:28:38 PM
          Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making HO Loco's WAY BACK

           

          I'm surprised none of you have gotten up in arms about Sakura Docksiders going for $250 or better...... .what something is worth is what some sucker will pay..... is what the used car dealer told me, we do live in a free market economy don't we. Sitting here mildly amused Guy

          --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "bob d" <fishntrains@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > The seller also changed the title description
          >
          > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Seriously Guys:
          > >
          > > have a look at this. Now I don't know everything about Tyco (I am a Tyco Collector's Forum moderator thouhg) but I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that this opens up a whole new area of vintage HO collecting!! ! ;-)
          > >
          > > http://cgi.ebay. com/Mantua- Union-Pacific- Steam-Locomotive -Rare-1920s- /290436803175? cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_ Trains&hash=item439f61ea67
          > >
          > > Who'd a thunk it!!!???
          > >
          > > -Gareth
          > >
          >



          Group: vintageHO Message: 14148 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/21/2010
          Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit
          Hi Jim H.,

          Thank you for the details on your metal bodied restoration techniques, I think many will find them helpful. Though once I intended to paint all of my vintage models in prototype schemes, Erie, Lackawanna or the correct prototype Northeastern road, I have now come around to your position of leaving some in their original natural state, especially for me the earliest cast brass, bronze and lead based white metal, pre high production models.

          [The only exception to that thought at the minute is that 1938-1939 cast bronze - Walthers flat front Alco High Hood switcher, Lackawanna owned eight of the only nine prototype locomotives and a modeler of that era would might likely lettered it that way. Still debating though and will wait until after the bent roof/top casting is restored.]

          Besides, I alreday have contemporary models of may of my favorite roads locomotives. Later hard die cast Zamac will have both painted and unpainted, as for example, I have an beautiful fresh original Varney Docksider and another runner, poorly painted but with Central Valley valve gear and some supplemental detaling. I intend to strip that and reapaint and reassemble with additional details to match the BO prototype shown on the early Varney box an in the catalogs and have just about all the CalScale details, I need now, I believe.

          I will begin another attack on those those extra hobbytown E-6's with rewed vigor and remover ths weekend.

          Thanks also on the mention of the "Twinkle" polish for models not intended to be painted; I have an unused container of it that I literally inherited with the family home, so will open and finally put it to good use.

          W Jay W.



          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
          >
          > W Jay W, All,
          >
          > There are so many times I wish that I had taken before and after pictures of items I have redone. I took this picture for inclusion in the Gallery section of hoseeker. After it's together I will take a completed one for there to.
          >
          > I have to take apart my already assembled B unit to see if there is a mark in the top of it. Another thing is the B unit is not cast bronze but is still DMC. It looks like more of a aluminum ? cast. Same molds, different run ?
          >
          > As for the clean look of my trains. It is one of the things that to me makes my collection "stand out" and I take great pride in it.
          > Of course I don't touch factory painted items unless it would happen to be the only copy of something I want available. Getting one of each item is my first priority. Any item that was repainted or originally was undecorated metal / brass hits the brake fluid for what ever time is needed depending on the paint on it. Some are a little harder and some need a "scrubbing " with a brass brush. If the paint still doesn't move a dip in a paint remover is called for. Then a good wash of dish detergent and rinse off. Then comes the time consuming part. Using a small screwdriver, a pointed Exacto knife blade and a sharp pointed piece of metal I pick out anything that is imbedded in the corners or the detail. A lot comes out easy but some takes a little prodding plus using a small brass wheel or brush for final clean up..
          >
          > Most of the time after this has been done I usually leave the item to show off it's original metal. I have found a compound called Twinkle that is great for shinning up anything from brass to bronze. Dip a wet toothbrush in the paste and scrub hard what you are trying to shine or take discoloration off of. Then reclean with soap and water and leave dry. Whatever is in this Twinkle seems to hold back any tarnish for a while.
          >
          > If I intend to paint these original undecorated items I do not use the Twinkle. Bad for holding paint. While I sometimes paint any type of metal I just clean with the dish detergent, rinse off in hot water and let dry. I have never used an undercoat on any item I have painted even brass and have never had a peeling problem and I can show brass items that have been painted 20 years. I use all spray cans of paint especially Krylon brand because I don't have or never have used an air brush and I think you have seen the quality of my painted items. Lucky I guess.
          >
          > As for the Hobbytown (metal ) shells you would need a paint remover ( I use an Eco friendly brand ) , let sit for 48 hours and a brass or even metal brush for what remains. A pair of rubber gloves and eye protection and some elbow grease.
          >
          > I'm sure others have their ways but what I have described works for me.
          >
          > Jim H
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: the_plainsman
          > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:34 AM
          > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Jim. H.,
          >
          > Wow, it is hard to believe it is the same locomotive you showed a few days ago - great job on cleaning it, kit illustration and preparing it for assembly.
          >
          > I am saving those phtos, particularly the inside view of the shell's DMC for comparison when another is found - from the photos, my first impression is that it looks original.
          >
          > Thanks for the comparison photo, I can clearly see the differences in the two castings. Not being familiar with either model, I had thought maybe the manufacturer may have taken a short cut, but can now see that was not the case as the E unit nose is completely different from the "bulldog" FT nose.
          >
          > Lastly, I have to ask, Jim, what is your secret for cleaning your models to present them in original condition? It is something that I noticed in your collection when I looked though your first album when I joined. Many vintage models are covered in layers of old paint and grime, and I have a couple of hobbytown of Bostn E-6 shells that have defied removal of the remaining paint despite different methods.
          >
          > W Jay W.
          >
          > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Pictured is the disassembled but now cleaned up DMC ( Diesel Model Co./ Dallas Model Craft ) FT powered A unit I won on Ebay. . Before I assemble it you can see on the second picture the capital letters DMC in the inside of the roof instead of the raised / embossed lettering saying Adams and Son in the E units. The DMC in this FT is odd in that it isn't perfect lettering but still looks cast in and not scratched in later ( to my eyes anyway ).
          > >
          > > W Jay W While not the best picture( to bright ) you can see the two cast bronze noses with the FT on top is not near a long and has different detail.
          > >
          > > Jim H
          > >
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 14149 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/21/2010
          Subject: Re: low profile drives - an lost art?
          Hi Gerold, and All,
           
          One of the vintage very low profile drives you may have been thinking of last week was one design produced for quite a while beginning in the early 1960's by Traction Models' Bob Lindemann [not to be confused with Model Traction Supply, today's MTS Imports - Joel Lovich].
           
          Traction Models produced what is believed to be the first truly underfloor HO scale power truck, requiring no floor or chassis relief, recess or floor opening as often do the later Tenshodo SPUDS, today's North West Short Line PDT's or the even popular Australian Black Beetles.
           
          For those with access to back issues, a comprehensive review of the Traction Models underfloor power truck, with photo may be found in the April, 1964 issue of Model Railroader, page 9. Traction Models often advertised in MR during those years, as their models appeal went beyond standard traction and trolley modelers.
           
          There was one recognized issue with their design, though not in initial performance, as they run smooth and quiet when new, but have problems with longevity under frequent sustained operation.  Due to the motor's origins in slot car technology, the brushes were small, almost pencil-lead type, providing little drag but eventually wearing a grove in the commutator with resultant operational problems.
           
          I'm sure the design of the brushes could have been addressed if anyone later picked up on that overall design configuration. This has been the subject of discussion a while back at the New York City Transit Modeler's Group at Yahoo [NYCTMG].  During the 1960's Traction Models produced three noteworthy models that might also be of interest to some of our Vintage HO group.
           
          Traction Models first model was for the typical early 1900's IRT "Lo-V" type subway car used into the 1960's on some lines - an original version had tinplate sides and ends and a [cast?] plastic roof, pre-assembled much in the fashion of a Walther's PUG passenger car; a few years later he reissued the Lo-V model with cast lead based white metal sides and ends and milled wood roof. 
           
          Their last, and some think finest model, was of a wood-sided, open end platform Brooklyn Elevated car, consisting again of cast white metal sides and end platforms, milled wood roof and excellent etched brass end gates and cast brass details.  All these models were available both powered and unpowered; the underfloor trucks were available separately, and as recently as the early 1970's, I believe.
           
          I too, first shared your disappointment with today's Bowser "state of the art" traction drive featuring a truck mounted gear box and motor which must be located in a portion of the passenger compartment of the interurban, trolley or subway car it is installed in. 
           
          Yet after about three years study on my part, including the aforementioned NWSL PDT, Black Beetle units and even adapting the now out of production Bachman GE-44 and 70 ton switchers' tiny motorized trucks with aftermarket motor mounts which permitted turning those tiny motors on their sides for a low profile mount, I [and much of the traction and more importantly to me, fellow subway and elevated modelers] have accepted it as today's standard in HO scale.
           
          They are smooth running, reliable and not expensive, an important consideration when many are needed and matching MU capability is important.  A manufacturer with a reputation for good current parts availability, too.  In addition, several other manufacturers are supporting it with additional aftermarket parts to permit mounting on thicker floors, permitting tighter turns, adding flywheels or even special DCC modules, the latter of which is no interest to me however. 
            
          I am still holding back, however on using them with the beautiful circa 1980 [almost vintage] Q-Car Co. cast resin NYC IND R-4, BMT Standard and NYWB Stillwell MU's, cars that did not MU outside of their class, leaving room for full detailing in all cars, not just the unpowered ones.  Fellow NYC Transit modeler and NYCTMG Group member Al Westerfield is trying the Black Beetles in his IRT Lo-V's and will see what his experience is before making that leap.
           
          I agree, though, if the current Bowser unit is objectionable, and one can't hide it with black side curtains, partial seating or even partial passengers as some have, use it in a box motor or the baggage compartment of a gas electric.
            
          Back on topic, though, I would recommend anyone seek out an example of those early vintage Traction Model trucks and maybe a NYC Subway or Elevated model for their vintage model collection.
           
          Attached are photos of the original 1960's vintage Traction Models IRT Lo-V NY City subway car models and the Brooklyn BMT Elvated "Gate Car"  and Gate Car kit - please note that the assembled model photos are uncredited eBay captures and are not mine, though I did purchase the unpowered gate car kit shown.  I do have two Traction Models brochures and can provide copies - no scanner, contact me with address off-list.
           
          W Jay W.
           
          Ps. one problem now noted on the web with early Tenshodo SPUDS, as well as the older Bachman miniture pewered trucks is plastic gear shrinkage and splitting.  NWSL has a somewhat expensive replacement fix for the little Bachmann's, but reason enough I decided against using those two.

            @@attachment@@
          Group: vintageHO Message: 14150 From: Nelson B Date: 5/21/2010
          Subject: Re: Well Thanks to evilbay we now know the Tylers were making...
          Omnimodels lists those new Pacifics as Model Power units with all metal wheels, so I took a look over at Model Power's site, and they've added the Pacific to their Mantua Classics line. I wonder when that happened. http://store.modelpower.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=30

          That may be what threw this seller off, but even after revising his listing he's still asking way too much.

          Nelson

          --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
          >
          > While even at the price it's listed for right now, it's still way out of
          > line -- but as he seems to be more familiar with cameras than he is with
          > trains so perhaps this is a case of him just being naive in what they're worth.
          > One thing that has me on the fence about this possibility though, is why he
          > dropped his price so much if he was so sure it is worth what he originally
          > had it posted for, and now he took a very different stance. He may have seen
          > the Mantua Pacifics that were posted by "Ominmodels" and figured he should
          > get as much (unless Omni posted his later). I do see a good number of
          > Mantua Pacifics posted by this "Omnimodels" seller, as "Buy Now" for $149.95. I
          > also see one (or two?) priced at $179 (UP Grey w/Vandy tender) and one
          > priced at $169 (B&O Presidential), but these were special runs.
          >
          > The $149.95 ones are CN, NP, CP, PRR, ATSF and a UP Grey Goose -- a few
          > with special paint. Some of these look to possibly be of the factory built and
          > painted "Mantua Mark II" series that were also factory super detailed, but
          > I don't know about those that appear to be more common. He has 10 PRR
          > Pacifics available and 10 ATSF Pacifics available -- don't all of you guys rush
          > to buy them all up now! I didn't check out all of his the auctions however.
          >
          > I see a UP Pacific very similar to the one being offered by "camera$" at
          > $10.49 (with 2 bids) and another at $19.95 (with one bid). I would not be
          > very surprised if the model that "camera$" is offering is one of the most
          > numerous models produced by any engine manufacturer; they used to be a dime a
          > dozen, and still must be very common today. I probably have half a dozen
          > Mantua Pacifics and another half dozen Mikados that I've acquired from back
          > then, at train shows for about $5 each.. I guess I don't know the fortune I'm
          > sitting on < g >. Not bad runners though, as were all Mantua models even
          > from that era. Ray F. W.</HTML>
          >
          Group: vintageHO Message: 14151 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 5/21/2010
          Subject: Re: low profile drives - an lost art? [3 Attachments]
          Attachments :
            Hi Jay,

            thanks for the update on Traction Models. I have a power - dummy set too, see attachment. Have only tried to use the motors ionce, I was afarid the gears ( which as far as i remember are stamped steel parts) might not last too long... as they are pristine; i would rather keep them as is and use some other ( disposable ) power truck IF I ever will assemble those kits.
             

            I too, first shared your disappointment with today's Bowser "state of the art" traction drive featuring a truck mounted gear box and motor which must be located in a portion of the passenger compartment of the interurban, trolley or subway car it is installed in.

            I am most frustrated ... apparently, as you correctly say, they have created a new "standard" for trolley models that will make his mark for years to come.... and this standard misses his target because somebody lacked some creative thinking. I feel with the same level of tooling and production effort, it would have been possible to create a much better product.... There is a local company  here in Austria who produces just that, new, smooth  running, affordable underfloor drives.  ( thats no PR from my side, they have incorporated  this type of drives in their line of European prototype LRVs, they are not sold to the general public but this shows what could have been done)

            Have installed a few in various PCC Models with good success. Have just shot two pictures to illustrate the concept. No great pictures; my camera only works well in daylight.

            Gerold

            Group: vintageHO Message: 14152 From: jim heckard Date: 5/21/2010
            Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit
            W Jay W,
             
                   I forgot to mention that my favorite Krylon spray paint is Ultra Flat Black. It is great for steam and certain diesels. NYC, Erie, Reading. In between gloss and flat it takes decals great. You do what you want to hid decal edges but sometimes nothing needed. It's best used for engines completely disassembled but I have done some steam where I painted the frame, drivers, even spoked drivers and you scrape the paint off where the wheels touch track after a couple of hours ( Before it really sets ). leading & trailing trucks, rods and valve gear all at one time. Spray lightly from a recommended distance  and rotate the drivers a little at a time for good frame coverage. I noticed that after a week or two the paint becomes very "hard" and does not nick or wear easily.
             
                                                                      Jim H
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:43 PM
            Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit

             

            Hi Jim H.,

            Thank you for the details on your metal bodied restoration techniques, I think many will find them helpful. Though once I intended to paint all of my vintage models in prototype schemes, Erie, Lackawanna or the correct prototype Northeastern road, I have now come around to your position of leaving some in their original natural state, especially for me the earliest cast brass, bronze and lead based white metal, pre high production models.

            [The only exception to that thought at the minute is that 1938-1939 cast bronze - Walthers flat front Alco High Hood switcher, Lackawanna owned eight of the only nine prototype locomotives and a modeler of that era would might likely lettered it that way. Still debating though and will wait until after the bent roof/top casting is restored.]

            Besides, I alreday have contemporary models of may of my favorite roads locomotives. Later hard die cast Zamac will have both painted and unpainted, as for example, I have an beautiful fresh original Varney Docksider and another runner, poorly painted but with Central Valley valve gear and some supplemental detaling. I intend to strip that and reapaint and reassemble with additional details to match the BO prototype shown on the early Varney box an in the catalogs and have just about all the CalScale details, I need now, I believe.

            I will begin another attack on those those extra hobbytown E-6's with rewed vigor and remover ths weekend.

            Thanks also on the mention of the "Twinkle" polish for models not intended to be painted; I have an unused container of it that I literally inherited with the family home, so will open and finally put it to good use.

            W Jay W.

            --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
            >
            > W Jay W, All,
            >
            > There are so many times I wish that I had taken before and after pictures of items I have redone. I took this picture for inclusion in the Gallery section of hoseeker. After it's together I will take a completed one for there to.
            >
            > I have to take apart my already assembled B unit to see if there is a mark in the top of it. Another thing is the B unit is not cast bronze but is still DMC. It looks like more of a aluminum ? cast. Same molds, different run ?
            >
            > As for the clean look of my trains. It is one of the things that to me makes my collection "stand out" and I take great pride in it.
            > Of course I don't touch factory painted items unless it would happen to be the only copy of something I want available. Getting one of each item is my first priority. Any item that was repainted or originally was undecorated metal / brass hits the brake fluid for what ever time is needed depending on the paint on it. Some are a little harder and some need a "scrubbing " with a brass brush. If the paint still doesn't move a dip in a paint remover is called for. Then a good wash of dish detergent and rinse off. Then comes the time consuming part. Using a small screwdriver, a pointed Exacto knife blade and a sharp pointed piece of metal I pick out anything that is imbedded in the corners or the detail. A lot comes out easy but some takes a little prodding plus using a small brass wheel or brush for final clean up..
            >
            > Most of the time after this has been done I usually leave the item to show off it's original metal. I have found a compound called Twinkle that is great for shinning up anything from brass to bronze. Dip a wet toothbrush in the paste and scrub hard what you are trying to shine or take discoloration off of. Then reclean with soap and water and leave dry. Whatever is in this Twinkle seems to hold back any tarnish for a while.
            >
            > If I intend to paint these original undecorated items I do not use the Twinkle. Bad for holding paint. While I sometimes paint any type of metal I just clean with the dish detergent, rinse off in hot water and let dry. I have never used an undercoat on any item I have painted even brass and have never had a peeling problem and I can show brass items that have been painted 20 years. I use all spray cans of paint especially Krylon brand because I don't have or never have used an air brush and I think you have seen the quality of my painted items. Lucky I guess.
            >
            > As for the Hobbytown (metal ) shells you would need a paint remover ( I use an Eco friendly brand ) , let sit for 48 hours and a brass or even metal brush for what remains. A pair of rubber gloves and eye protection and some elbow grease.
            >
            > I'm sure others have their ways but what I have described works for me.
            >
            > Jim H
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: the_plainsman
            > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:34 AM
            > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Jim. H.,
            >
            > Wow, it is hard to believe it is the same locomotive you showed a few days ago - great job on cleaning it, kit illustration and preparing it for assembly.
            >
            > I am saving those phtos, particularly the inside view of the shell's DMC for comparison when another is found - from the photos, my first impression is that it looks original.
            >
            > Thanks for the comparison photo, I can clearly see the differences in the two castings. Not being familiar with either model, I had thought maybe the manufacturer may have taken a short cut, but can now see that was not the case as the E unit nose is completely different from the "bulldog" FT nose.
            >
            > Lastly, I have to ask, Jim, what is your secret for cleaning your models to present them in original condition? It is something that I noticed in your collection when I looked though your first album when I joined. Many vintage models are covered in layers of old paint and grime, and I have a couple of hobbytown of Bostn E-6 shells that have defied removal of the remaining paint despite different methods.
            >
            > W Jay W.
            >
            > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Pictured is the disassembled but now cleaned up DMC ( Diesel Model Co./ Dallas Model Craft ) FT powered A unit I won on Ebay. . Before I assemble it you can see on the second picture the capital letters DMC in the inside of the roof instead of the raised / embossed lettering saying Adams and Son in the E units. The DMC in this FT is odd in that it isn't perfect lettering but still looks cast in and not scratched in later ( to my eyes anyway ).
            > >
            > > W Jay W While not the best picture( to bright ) you can see the two cast bronze noses with the FT on top is not near a long and has different detail.
            > >
            > > Jim H
            > >
            >

            Group: vintageHO Message: 14154 From: Glenn476 Date: 5/22/2010
            Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific memories
            Isn't it amazing how we have come full circle in locomotive construction.  Back then we took a die-cast loco and chiseled and filed off all the piping and other cast-on details--then added them back with castings and wire.  Now manufacturers like MMI are starting with the Zamak loco without the cast-on details and supplying the finished locos with the added-on details.  gj
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 10:58 PM
            Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Pacific memories

            In the early 1960's  as a teenager I heavily super detailed an early all metal Mantua Pacific.  I filled ALL the boiler detail off,
            filled the hollow boiler with lead for pulling power and soldered brass boiler bands to the lead.  That way piping and
            detail could be soldered to the brass bands.  I soldered together a brass cab from plans in a model magazine. 
            Everything was changed, even the pilot and smoke box front.  I ordered a Santa Fe tender from PFM for  about $10. 
            I never finished for lack of more attractive valve gear and side rods. I became an armchair  modeler for many years
            while my older brother stayed active.  He put back stock valve gear, painted it up in blue for Wabash and put
            a coal tender behind it.  He finally sold everything about 1975 including all the craftsman type passenger and freight cars
            I had built in the late 1950's and early 60's.  I had some of the Varney cars you got from Kellogg's for 50 cents
            and a box top maybe about 1956?  I never hear discussion about the Walter's series of stamped metal and wood
            Santa Fe Passenger car kits.  I had built the whole series.
            I would love to have it all back, but I am sure all has been scattered all over the Midwest by 35 years of swap meets. 
            I did in the early 1980's buy back some of our early 1960's Santa Fe brass engines and one of my fleet of trilevel auto carriers.  
            My Dad and I together built them from wood strips sawed on a tiny table saw  when  they were first used.
            The cars were not very correct, but sentimental.
            I hope to built a model railroad again when I retire in another year.  Right now my career as a wood patternmaker
            make's my hobby too much like doing my day job!!!
             
            Allen H.
            Group: vintageHO Message: 14155 From: jim heckard Date: 5/22/2010
            Subject: Mantua Cataliog
            Attachments :
              W Jay W, Sean N, All,
               
                     I just received a neat little 32 page catalog by Mantua. On the back it says    No. 38 First Edition   Copyrighted 1937.  The booklet looks mint and contains a wealth of information and pictures about pre war Mantua engines. I have sent 2 pictures of the pre war Consolidation ( there are more ) showing the frame, drivers, valve gear including the 6 volt motor. A second drawing shows the 6 volt motor. The book contains other pictures showing pre war Pacific and the larger 6 volt motor used in it. It sure answers a lot of my questions about pre war and what 6 volt motor was used in what engines.
               
                   Jay     Thanks for the heads up in getting the catalog.
               
                   Sean   Catalog has picture of the frame, drivers and motor for the Mantua Mountain mechanism like you have.
               
                  There is even a listing with drawings of other motors Mantua sold for other size like OO including a super motor 10-15 volts . The interesting part about this is a statement   "ALL MOTORS OPERATE ON AC OR DC" . 
               
                   I will be giving a copy of this booklet to Larry Stevenson for inclusion in his hoseeker sight. I don't see it there now. I will be able to hand it directly to him when he comes to visit end of June. Then it will be available for everyone to view. Till then I can supply other info or pics if needed. Sorry the pictures not the best. Flash left glare, no flash to dark.
               
                                                                      Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14156 From: jim heckard Date: 5/22/2010
              Subject: Mantua Catalog
                         I am sending this again as I don't see the attachments ( pictures ) showing up except boxes describing them at the end that I can't open. I am sending these from my sent box so they come through as attachments that can be opened. Can anyone explain what is happening as it never acted like this before.
               
                                              Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 11:50 AM
              Subject: Mantua Cataliog

              W Jay W, Sean N, All,
               
                     I just received a neat little 32 page catalog by Mantua. On the back it says    No. 38 First Edition   Copyrighted 1937.  The booklet looks mint and contains a wealth of information and pictures about pre war Mantua engines. I have sent 2 pictures of the pre war Consolidation ( there are more ) showing the frame, drivers, valve gear including the 6 volt motor. A second drawing shows the 6 volt motor. The book contains other pictures showing pre war Pacific and the larger 6 volt motor used in it. It sure answers a lot of my questions about pre war and what 6 volt motor was used in what engines.
               
                   Jay     Thanks for the heads up in getting the catalog.
               
                   Sean   Catalog has picture of the frame, drivers and motor for the Mantua Mountain mechanism like you have.
               
                  There is even a listing with drawings of other motors Mantua sold for other size like OO including a super motor 10-15 volts . The interesting part about this is a statement   "ALL MOTORS OPERATE ON AC OR DC" . 
               
                   I will be giving a copy of this booklet to Larry Stevenson for inclusion in his hoseeker sight. I don't see it there now. I will be able to hand it directly to him when he comes to visit end of June. Then it will be available for everyone to view. Till then I can supply other info or pics if needed. Sorry the pictures not the best. Flash left glare, no flash to dark.
               
                                                                      Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14157 From: bob d Date: 5/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Cataliog
              Great add and pickup, Jim. As far as you "attempt" at pics, do you have a copier that allows you to scan images into you computer? I have such a beast and they do work, though as with everything, some better than others. Mine is a Lexmark 7550X, not all that expensive, around $129, I believe. I've spent 10x that for a few of my trains.

              I use mine more for scanning in some of my old 35mm photos. It doesn't do a great job but is very acceptable, grading from outstanding to "piece of crap", this is near outstanding as some of my old photos had to be scanned multiple times to get an acceptable copy, in its reproducing the photos for storage. I have never tried to scan in an item with text. Some copiers do have a problem with such small details, hence "piece of crap". But I have used it as a fax and it has performed well. So, judging from that experience, I would not hesitate to say it should be able to do well in copying text for storage. It would surely give you an opportunity to "keep" your catalog to your self as you could transmit the document to "hoseekers" or visa versa, keep the digital copy for yourself and hand over the original.

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > W Jay W, Sean N, All,
              >
              > I just received a neat little 32 page catalog by Mantua. On the back it says No. 38 First Edition Copyrighted 1937. The booklet looks mint and contains a wealth of information and pictures about pre war Mantua engines. I have sent 2 pictures of the pre war Consolidation ( there are more ) showing the frame, drivers, valve gear including the 6 volt motor. A second drawing shows the 6 volt motor. The book contains other pictures showing pre war Pacific and the larger 6 volt motor used in it. It sure answers a lot of my questions about pre war and what 6 volt motor was used in what engines.
              >
              > Jay Thanks for the heads up in getting the catalog.
              >
              > Sean Catalog has picture of the frame, drivers and motor for the Mantua Mountain mechanism like you have.
              >
              > There is even a listing with drawings of other motors Mantua sold for other size like OO including a super motor 10-15 volts . The interesting part about this is a statement "ALL MOTORS OPERATE ON AC OR DC" .
              >
              > I will be giving a copy of this booklet to Larry Stevenson for inclusion in his hoseeker sight. I don't see it there now. I will be able to hand it directly to him when he comes to visit end of June. Then it will be available for everyone to view. Till then I can supply other info or pics if needed. Sorry the pictures not the best. Flash left glare, no flash to dark.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14158 From: jim heckard Date: 5/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Cataliog
                 I have no scanner. To poor. Spending all on trains ( Ha Ha ). Mostly computer illiterate just like the problem I am having now with sending attachments that can be opened. Just recently sent pictures as attachments and have been doing it the same way for a longtime and now I don't know whats going on.
               
                  As for sending things to Larry / hoseeker I usually just copy and send it by mail.
               
                                                              Jim H
               
                
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: bob d
              Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:15 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Cataliog

               

              Great add and pickup, Jim. As far as you "attempt" at pics, do you have a copier that allows you to scan images into you computer? I have such a beast and they do work, though as with everything, some better than others. Mine is a Lexmark 7550X, not all that expensive, around $129, I believe. I've spent 10x that for a few of my trains.

              I use mine more for scanning in some of my old 35mm photos. It doesn't do a great job but is very acceptable, grading from outstanding to "piece of crap", this is near outstanding as some of my old photos had to be scanned multiple times to get an acceptable copy, in its reproducing the photos for storage. I have never tried to scan in an item with text. Some copiers do have a problem with such small details, hence "piece of crap". But I have used it as a fax and it has performed well. So, judging from that experience, I would not hesitate to say it should be able to do well in copying text for storage. It would surely give you an opportunity to "keep" your catalog to your self as you could transmit the document to "hoseekers" or visa versa, keep the digital copy for yourself and hand over the original.

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > W Jay W, Sean N, All,
              >
              > I just received a neat little 32 page catalog by Mantua. On the back it says No. 38 First Edition Copyrighted 1937. The booklet looks mint and contains a wealth of information and pictures about pre war Mantua engines. I have sent 2 pictures of the pre war Consolidation ( there are more ) showing the frame, drivers, valve gear including the 6 volt motor. A second drawing shows the 6 volt motor. The book contains other pictures showing pre war Pacific and the larger 6 volt motor used in it. It sure answers a lot of my questions about pre war and what 6 volt motor was used in what engines.
              >
              > Jay Thanks for the heads up in getting the catalog.
              >
              > Sean Catalog has picture of the frame, drivers and motor for the Mantua Mountain mechanism like you have.
              >
              > There is even a listing with drawings of other motors Mantua sold for other size like OO including a super motor 10-15 volts . The interesting part about this is a statement "ALL MOTORS OPERATE ON AC OR DC" .
              >
              > I will be giving a copy of this booklet to Larry Stevenson for inclusion in his hoseeker sight. I don't see it there now. I will be able to hand it directly to him when he comes to visit end of June. Then it will be available for everyone to view. Till then I can supply other info or pics if needed. Sorry the pictures not the best. Flash left glare, no flash to dark.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14159 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 5/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Cataliog
              Hi Jim H.,
               
              Glad that you already received it and good to know it was as good a find as I suspected, much older than any other Mauntua paper I have or have seen.  It would have been sold instantly when listed if the seller had not inadvertantly missed including the Mantua name in their listing.
               
              Other than what I've learned through the discussions and photos here and a general history such as at www.railstop.com, the subject of pre-war Mantua locomotives is one area that I know little about and have no examples of in my collection.  I'm looking forward to seeing the catalog when it becomes available at HOSeeker, and thanks for sharing it with all of us there.
               
              In your first post, the thumbnail photos were not visible to me at our group's home page, but were visible on my Yahoo page, but could not get enlarged view after click. Likely just some glitch, as I had no problem in both seeing and opening the thumbnails from your second post at both places.  
               
              Now to cut the lawn...
               
              W. Jay W.


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, May 22, 2010 11:50:35 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Cataliog

               

              W Jay W, Sean N, All,
               
                     I just received a neat little 32 page catalog by Mantua. On the back it says    No. 38 First Edition   Copyrighted 1937.  The booklet looks mint and contains a wealth of information and pictures about pre war Mantua engines. I have sent 2 pictures of the pre war Consolidation ( there are more ) showing the frame, drivers, valve gear including the 6 volt motor. A second drawing shows the 6 volt motor. The book contains other pictures showing pre war Pacific and the larger 6 volt motor used in it. It sure answers a lot of my questions about pre war and what 6 volt motor was used in what engines.
               
                   Jay     Thanks for the heads up in getting the catalog.
               
                   Sean   Catalog has picture of the frame, drivers and motor for the Mantua Mountain mechanism like you have.
               
                  There is even a listing with drawings of other motors Mantua sold for other size like OO including a super motor 10-15 volts . The interesting part about this is a statement   "ALL MOTORS OPERATE ON AC OR DC" . 
               
                   I will be giving a copy of this booklet to Larry Stevenson for inclusion in his hoseeker sight. I don't see it there now. I will be able to hand it directly to him when he comes to visit end of June. Then it will be available for everyone to view. Till then I can supply other info or pics if needed. Sorry the pictures not the best. Flash left glare, no flash to dark.
               
                                                                      Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14160 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 5/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific memories
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
              >
              > Isn't it amazing how we have come full circle in locomotive construction. Back then we took a die-cast loco and chiseled and filed off all the piping and other cast-on details--then added them back with castings and wire. Now manufacturers like MMI are starting with the Zamak loco without the cast-on details and supplying the finished locos with the added-on details. gj



              If you guys miss this, I have a couple you could for me ;-)

              It's funny how alot of people this day and age don't realize craftsmans the hobby was back then,
              building wood/metal freight cars and applying all the detail, rebuilding and detailing Locos like mentioned before.
              it is sad to look compare then and now,
              like the guys who by a RTR model, shoot a couple passes of
              "weathering" on it and sell it as a pro build and weathered model..
              it's almost sickening sometimes.

              But my Hats off to the Modelers of past who pave the way for the hobby, they are the true heros I think.

              Larry L. Doub
              Big Rock Iowa
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14161 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 5/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific memories
              I agree. I used to go riding around on the first westbound bus of the morning, as the driver is a friend of mine. If I couldn't sleep, I would hop his 2 hour round trip route at 5 AM. I got to know many of the passengers, and one of them who is slightly younger than I am (I turn 26 today), he was in college and is a model railroader.

              Well, one day he brought a couple Athearn RTR diesels to show me on the bus. He had been boasting about what a craftsman he is. Well, all he did to these locomotives, was add a bell and weathering. I was not impressed.

              The next day, I brought one of my detailed engines and some old paper and wood cars I had superdetailed. The young man's jaw dropped when I told him there was NO plastic on any of the items. Even the driver wanted to look at my stuff at red lights. Half the bus was interested in seeing these old trains after a while.

              Sure showed him a thing or two about 'how it's done'!

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Sun, 5/23/10, Mr Larry L. Doub <larry_l_doub@...> wrote:

              From: Mr Larry L. Doub <larry_l_doub@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Pacific memories
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, May 23, 2010, 10:02 AM

               



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
              >
              > Isn't it amazing how we have come full circle in locomotive construction. Back then we took a die-cast loco and chiseled and filed off all the piping and other cast-on details--then added them back with castings and wire. Now manufacturers like MMI are starting with the Zamak loco without the cast-on details and supplying the finished locos with the added-on details. gj

              If you guys miss this, I have a couple you could for me ;-)

              It's funny how alot of people this day and age don't realize craftsmans the hobby was back then,
              building wood/metal freight cars and applying all the detail, rebuilding and detailing Locos like mentioned before.
              it is sad to look compare then and now,
              like the guys who by a RTR model, shoot a couple passes of
              "weathering" on it and sell it as a pro build and weathered model..
              it's almost sickening sometimes.

              But my Hats off to the Modelers of past who pave the way for the hobby, they are the true heros I think.

              Larry L. Doub
              Big Rock Iowa

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14162 From: bob d Date: 5/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Pacific memories
              I have a huge, by many standards, collection of cars and engines. I started my entrance in the hobby at age 6. I received my first train set Christmas 1959. Granted, I didn't do much modeling then, but that marked my entrance into this addiction we call model railroading. I STILL have those cars incidentally. Most in excellent-good condition. The two engines still see track time occasionally. About the only modification I've done to them is to change the old "hook and loop" couplers to Kadees.

              I went through a phase of craftsman building until I had so much any more would be redundant. With almost 3500 cars(I inherited about 2000 of these when my Dad passed in 1999) and nearly 400 engines(again, thanks to my Dad)I have run the complete gambit of the hobby. Now I resign myself to a modular layout of around 1400 lineal foot of track, detailing the engines and cars I have, though not many need much any more.

              I have, in my collection, but a few RTR cars, maybe 20. I actually went into mourning when Athearn made the announcement of their discontinuing the Blue Box line. Engines have been RTR for years and many craftsman kits have become too expensive or not available. I have a few that are duplicates and have never been built, but placed on the shelf for "collecting". I never thought of myself as a collector until recently. There must be 150 or more kits, many from the 1940's, 1950's, and early 1960's, that are untouched. I guess I'm an "obsessive-compulsive" for buying many. I would see items at train shows and buy them for the sole purpose of putting them on the shelves knowing that I would never build them, as I had no need.

              As a collector, I have never taken a mind into delving into the history of the manufacturers, numbers produced, of many of my models as many here have done. Still, I do not think myself as a "collector", but one who still models railroads and trains. Collecting just "happened", I guess.

              In my years in the hobby, two things come to mind as the greatest innovations to the hobby. DCC and standardizing of elements and manufacturing in the hobby. Still, a by-gone era is fast coming to an end, the age of the model craftsman. While there will always be a few hardy souls that will keep it alive, the "old-timers" that built this hobby are quickly dying off. Sad, indeed. The best we can hope for is that we can pass on the talents we have built to the next generation coming through the door.

              As a side here, I am currently planning a smaller "throw-back" layout. Using what I started with. Items like brass rail(I've got at least 300 feet of this stuff!!), old engines and cars from the 1940's,1950's, and early 1960's. Many engines will be such as the old Mantuas, Varney's, old amp-hog Athearn "rubber band" drives, and such. Cars made by Globe, Varney, Silver Streak, and the names of old. Trains that were around when I started. It won't be nearly as large as my main layout, just something to remind this old man where he started. Blocked power districts.....DCC has made these obsolete. Been a while since I built such a layout. I hope my feeble, shrinking mind can remember all of the things I need to get this done. And it gives me a use of all of the items I have stuffed in boxes and put in the corner of the closet of the train room that has since become obsolete over the years. Maybe some of those old cars and engines will get built before I get done, never know.

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Dana and Allen" <adhansen318@...> wrote:
              >
              > In the early 1960's as a teenager I heavily super detailed an early all metal Mantua Pacific. I filled ALL the boiler detail off,
              > filled the hollow boiler with lead for pulling power and soldered brass boiler bands to the lead. That way piping and
              > detail could be soldered to the brass bands. I soldered together a brass cab from plans in a model magazine.
              > Everything was changed, even the pilot and smoke box front. I ordered a Santa Fe tender from PFM for about $10.
              > I never finished for lack of more attractive valve gear and side rods. I became an armchair modeler for many years
              > while my older brother stayed active. He put back stock valve gear, painted it up in blue for Wabash and put
              > a coal tender behind it. He finally sold everything about 1975 including all the craftsman type passenger and freight cars
              > I had built in the late 1950's and early 60's. I had some of the Varney cars you got from Kellogg's for 50 cents
              > and a box top maybe about 1956? I never hear discussion about the Walter's series of stamped metal and wood
              > Santa Fe Passenger car kits. I had built the whole series.
              > I would love to have it all back, but I am sure all has been scattered all over the Midwest by 35 years of swap meets.
              > I did in the early 1980's buy back some of our early 1960's Santa Fe brass engines and one of my fleet of trilevel auto carriers.
              > My Dad and I together built them from wood strips sawed on a tiny table saw when they were first used.
              > The cars were not very correct, but sentimental.
              > I hope to built a model railroad again when I retire in another year. Right now my career as a wood patternmaker
              > make's my hobby too much like doing my day job!!!
              >
              > Allen H.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14163 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/23/2010
              Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit - Illustrated Ad
              Hi Jim H.

              Thanks for the additional painting suggestions. While reorganizing a few hours ago, I came across a small group of copies I made of various advertisements from late 40's Model Railroader I must have made a couple years ago - items of interest that I had not filed. One of them is a medium sized ad with an exploded parts drawing of the same DMC Diesel Model Co. FT-A unit you just purchased. The ad measures about 5-1/2" wide - two columns by about 3-3/4' or so in legnth. I checked HOSeeker under Dallas and Diesel Model Co. - DMC and it is not there, so if you would like the extra copy I have for your records, will mail it out tomorrow.

              W Jay W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > W Jay W,
              >
              > I forgot to mention that my favorite Krylon spray paint is Ultra Flat Black. It is great for steam and certain diesels. NYC, Erie, Reading. In between gloss and flat it takes decals great. You do what you want to hid decal edges but sometimes nothing needed. It's best used for engines completely disassembled but I have done some steam where I painted the frame, drivers, even spoked drivers and you scrape the paint off where the wheels touch track after a couple of hours ( Before it really sets ). leading & trailing trucks, rods and valve gear all at one time. Spray lightly from a recommended distance and rotate the drivers a little at a time for good frame coverage. I noticed that after a week or two the paint becomes very "hard" and does not nick or wear easily.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: the_plainsman
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:43 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Jim H.,
              >
              > Thank you for the details on your metal bodied restoration techniques, I think many will find them helpful. Though once I intended to paint all of my vintage models in prototype schemes, Erie, Lackawanna or the correct prototype Northeastern road, I have now come around to your position of leaving some in their original natural state, especially for me the earliest cast brass, bronze and lead based white metal, pre high production models.
              >
              > [The only exception to that thought at the minute is that 1938-1939 cast bronze - Walthers flat front Alco High Hood switcher, Lackawanna owned eight of the only nine prototype locomotives and a modeler of that era would might likely lettered it that way. Still debating though and will wait until after the bent roof/top casting is restored.]
              >
              > Besides, I alreday have contemporary models of may of my favorite roads locomotives. Later hard die cast Zamac will have both painted and unpainted, as for example, I have an beautiful fresh original Varney Docksider and another runner, poorly painted but with Central Valley valve gear and some supplemental detaling. I intend to strip that and reapaint and reassemble with additional details to match the BO prototype shown on the early Varney box an in the catalogs and have just about all the CalScale details, I need now, I believe.
              >
              > I will begin another attack on those those extra hobbytown E-6's with rewed vigor and remover ths weekend.
              >
              > Thanks also on the mention of the "Twinkle" polish for models not intended to be painted; I have an unused container of it that I literally inherited with the family home, so will open and finally put it to good use.
              >
              > W Jay W.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > W Jay W, All,
              > >
              > > There are so many times I wish that I had taken before and after pictures of items I have redone. I took this picture for inclusion in the Gallery section of hoseeker. After it's together I will take a completed one for there to.
              > >
              > > I have to take apart my already assembled B unit to see if there is a mark in the top of it. Another thing is the B unit is not cast bronze but is still DMC. It looks like more of a aluminum ? cast. Same molds, different run ?
              > >
              > > As for the clean look of my trains. It is one of the things that to me makes my collection "stand out" and I take great pride in it.
              > > Of course I don't touch factory painted items unless it would happen to be the only copy of something I want available. Getting one of each item is my first priority. Any item that was repainted or originally was undecorated metal / brass hits the brake fluid for what ever time is needed depending on the paint on it. Some are a little harder and some need a "scrubbing " with a brass brush. If the paint still doesn't move a dip in a paint remover is called for. Then a good wash of dish detergent and rinse off. Then comes the time consuming part. Using a small screwdriver, a pointed Exacto knife blade and a sharp pointed piece of metal I pick out anything that is imbedded in the corners or the detail. A lot comes out easy but some takes a little prodding plus using a small brass wheel or brush for final clean up..
              > >
              > > Most of the time after this has been done I usually leave the item to show off it's original metal. I have found a compound called Twinkle that is great for shinning up anything from brass to bronze. Dip a wet toothbrush in the paste and scrub hard what you are trying to shine or take discoloration off of. Then reclean with soap and water and leave dry. Whatever is in this Twinkle seems to hold back any tarnish for a while.
              > >
              > > If I intend to paint these original undecorated items I do not use the Twinkle. Bad for holding paint. While I sometimes paint any type of metal I just clean with the dish detergent, rinse off in hot water and let dry. I have never used an undercoat on any item I have painted even brass and have never had a peeling problem and I can show brass items that have been painted 20 years. I use all spray cans of paint especially Krylon brand because I don't have or never have used an air brush and I think you have seen the quality of my painted items. Lucky I guess.
              > >
              > > As for the Hobbytown (metal ) shells you would need a paint remover ( I use an Eco friendly brand ) , let sit for 48 hours and a brass or even metal brush for what remains. A pair of rubber gloves and eye protection and some elbow grease.
              > >
              > > I'm sure others have their ways but what I have described works for me.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: the_plainsman
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:34 AM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jim. H.,
              > >
              > > Wow, it is hard to believe it is the same locomotive you showed a few days ago - great job on cleaning it, kit illustration and preparing it for assembly.
              > >
              > > I am saving those phtos, particularly the inside view of the shell's DMC for comparison when another is found - from the photos, my first impression is that it looks original.
              > >
              > > Thanks for the comparison photo, I can clearly see the differences in the two castings. Not being familiar with either model, I had thought maybe the manufacturer may have taken a short cut, but can now see that was not the case as the E unit nose is completely different from the "bulldog" FT nose.
              > >
              > > Lastly, I have to ask, Jim, what is your secret for cleaning your models to present them in original condition? It is something that I noticed in your collection when I looked though your first album when I joined. Many vintage models are covered in layers of old paint and grime, and I have a couple of hobbytown of Bostn E-6 shells that have defied removal of the remaining paint despite different methods.
              > >
              > > W Jay W.
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Pictured is the disassembled but now cleaned up DMC ( Diesel Model Co./ Dallas Model Craft ) FT powered A unit I won on Ebay. . Before I assemble it you can see on the second picture the capital letters DMC in the inside of the roof instead of the raised / embossed lettering saying Adams and Son in the E units. The DMC in this FT is odd in that it isn't perfect lettering but still looks cast in and not scratched in later ( to my eyes anyway ).
              > > >
              > > > W Jay W While not the best picture( to bright ) you can see the two cast bronze noses with the FT on top is not near a long and has different detail.
              > > >
              > > > Jim H
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14164 From: jim heckard Date: 5/24/2010
              Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit - Illustrated Ad
              W Jay W,
               
                  Thanks for thinking about me. Why don't you just send it to Larry Stevenson hoseeker. He can put it on his site and your name would be on it and all can see.
               
                  If you contact me off site at    jimheck@...   I will give you addresses for him. Both Mailing and Email. That way you can ask him best way to send, scan if you can or whatever.  Don't have his permission to put them here.
               
                                                                   Jim H
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 10:17 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit - Illustrated Ad

               

              Hi Jim H.

              Thanks for the additional painting suggestions. While reorganizing a few hours ago, I came across a small group of copies I made of various advertisements from late 40's Model Railroader I must have made a couple years ago - items of interest that I had not filed. One of them is a medium sized ad with an exploded parts drawing of the same DMC Diesel Model Co. FT-A unit you just purchased. The ad measures about 5-1/2" wide - two columns by about 3-3/4' or so in legnth. I checked HOSeeker under Dallas and Diesel Model Co. - DMC and it is not there, so if you would like the extra copy I have for your records, will mail it out tomorrow.

              W Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > W Jay W,
              >
              > I forgot to mention that my favorite Krylon spray paint is Ultra Flat Black. It is great for steam and certain diesels. NYC, Erie, Reading. In between gloss and flat it takes decals great. You do what you want to hid decal edges but sometimes nothing needed. It's best used for engines completely disassembled but I have done some steam where I painted the frame, drivers, even spoked drivers and you scrape the paint off where the wheels touch track after a couple of hours ( Before it really sets ). leading & trailing trucks, rods and valve gear all at one time. Spray lightly from a recommended distance and rotate the drivers a little at a time for good frame coverage. I noticed that after a week or two the paint becomes very "hard" and does not nick or wear easily.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: the_plainsman
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:43 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Jim H.,
              >
              > Thank you for the details on your metal bodied restoration techniques, I think many will find them helpful. Though once I intended to paint all of my vintage models in prototype schemes, Erie, Lackawanna or the correct prototype Northeastern road, I have now come around to your position of leaving some in their original natural state, especially for me the earliest cast brass, bronze and lead based white metal, pre high production models.
              >
              > [The only exception to that thought at the minute is that 1938-1939 cast bronze - Walthers flat front Alco High Hood switcher, Lackawanna owned eight of the only nine prototype locomotives and a modeler of that era would might likely lettered it that way. Still debating though and will wait until after the bent roof/top casting is restored.]
              >
              > Besides, I alreday have contemporary models of may of my favorite roads locomotives. Later hard die cast Zamac will have both painted and unpainted, as for example, I have an beautiful fresh original Varney Docksider and another runner, poorly painted but with Central Valley valve gear and some supplemental detaling. I intend to strip that and reapaint and reassemble with additional details to match the BO prototype shown on the early Varney box an in the catalogs and have just about all the CalScale details, I need now, I believe.
              >
              > I will begin another attack on those those extra hobbytown E-6's with rewed vigor and remover ths weekend.
              >
              > Thanks also on the mention of the "Twinkle" polish for models not intended to be painted; I have an unused container of it that I literally inherited with the family home, so will open and finally put it to good use.
              >
              > W Jay W.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > W Jay W, All,
              > >
              > > There are so many times I wish that I had taken before and after pictures of items I have redone. I took this picture for inclusion in the Gallery section of hoseeker. After it's together I will take a completed one for there to.
              > >
              > > I have to take apart my already assembled B unit to see if there is a mark in the top of it. Another thing is the B unit is not cast bronze but is still DMC. It looks like more of a aluminum ? cast. Same molds, different run ?
              > >
              > > As for the clean look of my trains. It is one of the things that to me makes my collection "stand out" and I take great pride in it.
              > > Of course I don't touch factory painted items unless it would happen to be the only copy of something I want available. Getting one of each item is my first priority. Any item that was repainted or originally was undecorated metal / brass hits the brake fluid for what ever time is needed depending on the paint on it. Some are a little harder and some need a "scrubbing " with a brass brush. If the paint still doesn't move a dip in a paint remover is called for. Then a good wash of dish detergent and rinse off. Then comes the time consuming part. Using a small screwdriver, a pointed Exacto knife blade and a sharp pointed piece of metal I pick out anything that is imbedded in the corners or the detail. A lot comes out easy but some takes a little prodding plus using a small brass wheel or brush for final clean up..
              > >
              > > Most of the time after this has been done I usually leave the item to show off it's original metal. I have found a compound called Twinkle that is great for shinning up anything from brass to bronze. Dip a wet toothbrush in the paste and scrub hard what you are trying to shine or take discoloration off of. Then reclean with soap and water and leave dry. Whatever is in this Twinkle seems to hold back any tarnish for a while.
              > >
              > > If I intend to paint these original undecorated items I do not use the Twinkle. Bad for holding paint. While I sometimes paint any type of metal I just clean with the dish detergent, rinse off in hot water and let dry. I have never used an undercoat on any item I have painted even brass and have never had a peeling problem and I can show brass items that have been painted 20 years. I use all spray cans of paint especially Krylon brand because I don't have or never have used an air brush and I think you have seen the quality of my painted items. Lucky I guess.
              > >
              > > As for the Hobbytown (metal ) shells you would need a paint remover ( I use an Eco friendly brand ) , let sit for 48 hours and a brass or even metal brush for what remains. A pair of rubber gloves and eye protection and some elbow grease.
              > >
              > > I'm sure others have their ways but what I have described works for me.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: the_plainsman
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:34 AM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jim. H.,
              > >
              > > Wow, it is hard to believe it is the same locomotive you showed a few days ago - great job on cleaning it, kit illustration and preparing it for assembly.
              > >
              > > I am saving those phtos, particularly the inside view of the shell's DMC for comparison when another is found - from the photos, my first impression is that it looks original.
              > >
              > > Thanks for the comparison photo, I can clearly see the differences in the two castings. Not being familiar with either model, I had thought maybe the manufacturer may have taken a short cut, but can now see that was not the case as the E unit nose is completely different from the "bulldog" FT nose.
              > >
              > > Lastly, I have to ask, Jim, what is your secret for cleaning your models to present them in original condition? It is something that I noticed in your collection when I looked though your first album when I joined. Many vintage models are covered in layers of old paint and grime, and I have a couple of hobbytown of Bostn E-6 shells that have defied removal of the remaining paint despite different methods.
              > >
              > > W Jay W.
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Pictured is the disassembled but now cleaned up DMC ( Diesel Model Co./ Dallas Model Craft ) FT powered A unit I won on Ebay. . Before I assemble it you can see on the second picture the capital letters DMC in the inside of the roof instead of the raised / embossed lettering saying Adams and Son in the E units. The DMC in this FT is odd in that it isn't perfect lettering but still looks cast in and not scratched in later ( to my eyes anyway ).
              > > >
              > > > W Jay W While not the best picture( to bright ) you can see the two cast bronze noses with the FT on top is not near a long and has different detail.
              > > >
              > > > Jim H
              > > >
              > >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14165 From: the_plainsman Date: 5/24/2010
              Subject: Re: DMC FT A unit - Illustrated Ad
              Jim H., Good idea for a way to share some of those obsure early ads by sending very sharp copies to Larry at HOSeeker - that will supplement what few paper items there are for the more obscure lines that had no catalogs and possibly just one or two magazine ads. Will contact you off line. Scanner here still not functioning, may be a bad cable connection and have to try a new one. W Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > W Jay W,
              >
              > Thanks for thinking about me. Why don't you just send it to Larry Stevenson hoseeker. He can put it on his site and your name would be on it and all can see.
              >
              > If you contact me off site at jimheck@... I will give you addresses for him. Both Mailing and Email. That way you can ask him best way to send, scan if you can or whatever. Don't have his permission to put them here.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: the_plainsman
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 10:17 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit - Illustrated Ad
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Jim H.
              >
              > Thanks for the additional painting suggestions. While reorganizing a few hours ago, I came across a small group of copies I made of various advertisements from late 40's Model Railroader I must have made a couple years ago - items of interest that I had not filed. One of them is a medium sized ad with an exploded parts drawing of the same DMC Diesel Model Co. FT-A unit you just purchased. The ad measures about 5-1/2" wide - two columns by about 3-3/4' or so in legnth. I checked HOSeeker under Dallas and Diesel Model Co. - DMC and it is not there, so if you would like the extra copy I have for your records, will mail it out tomorrow.
              >
              > W Jay W.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > W Jay W,
              > >
              > > I forgot to mention that my favorite Krylon spray paint is Ultra Flat Black. It is great for steam and certain diesels. NYC, Erie, Reading. In between gloss and flat it takes decals great. You do what you want to hid decal edges but sometimes nothing needed. It's best used for engines completely disassembled but I have done some steam where I painted the frame, drivers, even spoked drivers and you scrape the paint off where the wheels touch track after a couple of hours ( Before it really sets ). leading & trailing trucks, rods and valve gear all at one time. Spray lightly from a recommended distance and rotate the drivers a little at a time for good frame coverage. I noticed that after a week or two the paint becomes very "hard" and does not nick or wear easily.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: the_plainsman
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:43 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jim H.,
              > >
              > > Thank you for the details on your metal bodied restoration techniques, I think many will find them helpful. Though once I intended to paint all of my vintage models in prototype schemes, Erie, Lackawanna or the correct prototype Northeastern road, I have now come around to your position of leaving some in their original natural state, especially for me the earliest cast brass, bronze and lead based white metal, pre high production models.
              > >
              > > [The only exception to that thought at the minute is that 1938-1939 cast bronze - Walthers flat front Alco High Hood switcher, Lackawanna owned eight of the only nine prototype locomotives and a modeler of that era would might likely lettered it that way. Still debating though and will wait until after the bent roof/top casting is restored.]
              > >
              > > Besides, I alreday have contemporary models of may of my favorite roads locomotives. Later hard die cast Zamac will have both painted and unpainted, as for example, I have an beautiful fresh original Varney Docksider and another runner, poorly painted but with Central Valley valve gear and some supplemental detaling. I intend to strip that and reapaint and reassemble with additional details to match the BO prototype shown on the early Varney box an in the catalogs and have just about all the CalScale details, I need now, I believe.
              > >
              > > I will begin another attack on those those extra hobbytown E-6's with rewed vigor and remover ths weekend.
              > >
              > > Thanks also on the mention of the "Twinkle" polish for models not intended to be painted; I have an unused container of it that I literally inherited with the family home, so will open and finally put it to good use.
              > >
              > > W Jay W.
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > W Jay W, All,
              > > >
              > > > There are so many times I wish that I had taken before and after pictures of items I have redone. I took this picture for inclusion in the Gallery section of hoseeker. After it's together I will take a completed one for there to.
              > > >
              > > > I have to take apart my already assembled B unit to see if there is a mark in the top of it. Another thing is the B unit is not cast bronze but is still DMC. It looks like more of a aluminum ? cast. Same molds, different run ?
              > > >
              > > > As for the clean look of my trains. It is one of the things that to me makes my collection "stand out" and I take great pride in it.
              > > > Of course I don't touch factory painted items unless it would happen to be the only copy of something I want available. Getting one of each item is my first priority. Any item that was repainted or originally was undecorated metal / brass hits the brake fluid for what ever time is needed depending on the paint on it. Some are a little harder and some need a "scrubbing " with a brass brush. If the paint still doesn't move a dip in a paint remover is called for. Then a good wash of dish detergent and rinse off. Then comes the time consuming part. Using a small screwdriver, a pointed Exacto knife blade and a sharp pointed piece of metal I pick out anything that is imbedded in the corners or the detail. A lot comes out easy but some takes a little prodding plus using a small brass wheel or brush for final clean up..
              > > >
              > > > Most of the time after this has been done I usually leave the item to show off it's original metal. I have found a compound called Twinkle that is great for shinning up anything from brass to bronze. Dip a wet toothbrush in the paste and scrub hard what you are trying to shine or take discoloration off of. Then reclean with soap and water and leave dry. Whatever is in this Twinkle seems to hold back any tarnish for a while.
              > > >
              > > > If I intend to paint these original undecorated items I do not use the Twinkle. Bad for holding paint. While I sometimes paint any type of metal I just clean with the dish detergent, rinse off in hot water and let dry. I have never used an undercoat on any item I have painted even brass and have never had a peeling problem and I can show brass items that have been painted 20 years. I use all spray cans of paint especially Krylon brand because I don't have or never have used an air brush and I think you have seen the quality of my painted items. Lucky I guess.
              > > >
              > > > As for the Hobbytown (metal ) shells you would need a paint remover ( I use an Eco friendly brand ) , let sit for 48 hours and a brass or even metal brush for what remains. A pair of rubber gloves and eye protection and some elbow grease.
              > > >
              > > > I'm sure others have their ways but what I have described works for me.
              > > >
              > > > Jim H
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: the_plainsman
              > > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:34 AM
              > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: DMC FT A unit
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi Jim. H.,
              > > >
              > > > Wow, it is hard to believe it is the same locomotive you showed a few days ago - great job on cleaning it, kit illustration and preparing it for assembly.
              > > >
              > > > I am saving those phtos, particularly the inside view of the shell's DMC for comparison when another is found - from the photos, my first impression is that it looks original.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks for the comparison photo, I can clearly see the differences in the two castings. Not being familiar with either model, I had thought maybe the manufacturer may have taken a short cut, but can now see that was not the case as the E unit nose is completely different from the "bulldog" FT nose.
              > > >
              > > > Lastly, I have to ask, Jim, what is your secret for cleaning your models to present them in original condition? It is something that I noticed in your collection when I looked though your first album when I joined. Many vintage models are covered in layers of old paint and grime, and I have a couple of hobbytown of Bostn E-6 shells that have defied removal of the remaining paint despite different methods.
              > > >
              > > > W Jay W.
              > > >
              > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Pictured is the disassembled but now cleaned up DMC ( Diesel Model Co./ Dallas Model Craft ) FT powered A unit I won on Ebay. . Before I assemble it you can see on the second picture the capital letters DMC in the inside of the roof instead of the raised / embossed lettering saying Adams and Son in the E units. The DMC in this FT is odd in that it isn't perfect lettering but still looks cast in and not scratched in later ( to my eyes anyway ).
              > > > >
              > > > > W Jay W While not the best picture( to bright ) you can see the two cast bronze noses with the FT on top is not near a long and has different detail.
              > > > >
              > > > > Jim H
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14166 From: bob d Date: 5/24/2010
              Subject: Vintage Megow NKP Hopper on eBay
              I already have four of these(2 assembled and 2 in box) I don't need or want a 5th. Thought some of you fellas may be interested.

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260608316658&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

              Bob
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14167 From: garyp552002 Date: 5/25/2010
              Subject: Varney Cars
              Hey Guys,
              I have six what I think are Varney HO freight cars. They are wooden and card construction with brass wheels and brass couplers made with hooks and a flattened "D" ring. They are not in the best of condition and some are missing parts. I got them as a set with a Varney loco that I wanted. If anyone is interested I would like to trade them for some 50' or shorter HO flat cars. Nothing fancy, Tyco and the likes, cheap are O.K. to make some logging flats out of. If anyone is interested I can send a photo of the 6. Contact me off page and maybe we can work out a trade as these are too old for me and I have no use for them. I have a caboose, a reefer, a cattle car, a flat with steel load, and two boxcars.
              Gary
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14168 From: Red Ranger Date: 5/27/2010
              Subject: Varney Consolidation Questions
              I think this may be my first post to this group. I have been a member for a while but just a reader. Now I have a question or two.

              I recently acquired a Varney 2-8-0 consolidation that was in unknown running condition. It appears to be very old and is not in running condition. The shell is a one-piece brass or bronze casting. The frame is a die-cast with pockets for the axle bearings. All of the drivers are sprung except for the geared driver. The other drivers each have a box shaped two-piece bearing that fits over the axle and held together by two screws. This then fits into the frame pockets with leaf spring type springs under them.

              I do not know the diameter of the drive gear or the number of teeth but it is brass and a bit small.

              The motor is nothing like I have ever seen before. Because the drive gear is small and the frame thick, the armature of the motor is more to the bottom side of the motor frame. The frame of the motor is colored bronze on the outside but appears to be die-cast metal and it is broken in several places. Not sure if it can be repaired. The motor will run it you hold all the pieces together correctly. The motor frame has an arm at the top that comes down the front of the motor and holds the other end of the armature.

              I have seen another photo documentation of a Varney consolidation restore but that one has a V2 motor and the frame is much different and I have looked on Ho Seeker but their documentation is also not like what I have.

              Can anyone tell me if they know what it is that I have?

              Is the motor worth fixing. If not, does anyone have an idea for a good replacement motor?

              Is using a gearbox a good option? If I should go the gearbox route, how do I know what will work on this and how do I install it.

              Can anyone point me to some information about the model version?

              If I have not described what I have very well, let me know and I will try to clarify or provide some photos.
              Any advice is greatly appreciated.

              Thanks, Don
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14169 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Hi Don,
               
              I only have a minute to respond. What you have is a pre-war consolidation. The motor, if it is fixable, is original and should be kept with it.
               
              Jim H may have some good photos of this version.
               
              Here are a couple pages from HOseeker
               
              Sean


              From: Red Ranger <don_hud@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 9:41:44 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Consolidation Questions

               

              I think this may be my first post to this group. I have been a member for a while but just a reader. Now I have a question or two.

              I recently acquired a Varney 2-8-0 consolidation that was in unknown running condition. It appears to be very old and is not in running condition. The shell is a one-piece brass or bronze casting. The frame is a die-cast with pockets for the axle bearings. All of the drivers are sprung except for the geared driver. The other drivers each have a box shaped two-piece bearing that fits over the axle and held together by two screws. This then fits into the frame pockets with leaf spring type springs under them.

              I do not know the diameter of the drive gear or the number of teeth but it is brass and a bit small.

              The motor is nothing like I have ever seen before. Because the drive gear is small and the frame thick, the armature of the motor is more to the bottom side of the motor frame. The frame of the motor is colored bronze on the outside but appears to be die-cast metal and it is broken in several places. Not sure if it can be repaired. The motor will run it you hold all the pieces together correctly. The motor frame has an arm at the top that comes down the front of the motor and holds the other end of the armature.

              I have seen another photo documentation of a Varney consolidation restore but that one has a V2 motor and the frame is much different and I have looked on Ho Seeker but their documentation is also not like what I have.

              Can anyone tell me if they know what it is that I have?

              Is the motor worth fixing. If not, does anyone have an idea for a good replacement motor?

              Is using a gearbox a good option? If I should go the gearbox route, how do I know what will work on this and how do I install it.

              Can anyone point me to some information about the model version?

              If I have not described what I have very well, let me know and I will try to clarify or provide some photos.
              Any advice is greatly appreciated.

              Thanks, Don


                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14170 From: jim heckard Date: 5/27/2010
              Subject: Pre war Varney Consolidation.
               

              Hi Don,
               
                      Will try to answer all your questions with both pictures and places to find answers. Your description is of the Varney pre war Consolidation using the V-1  6 volt motor. I just went to hoseeker and I can't find the paperwork I sent in to Larry and had been on the site. I don't know why it disappeared. Until I find an answer go to the Varney 1939 Catalog.  Click on Literature, click on Varney and at the top left  is a 1939 catalog. Go through the pages and you will find a lot of the Consolidation info you seek.
               
                 The frame , motor and how it is mounted on the pre war Consolidation using the V-1 6 volt motor is different from the post war Consolidation using the V-2 12 volt motor.  As a collector only I can't advise on what you should do if your motor does not work other the try to replace it with the same motor. 
               
                   Hope you can find what you need but if not ask again.
               
                                                         Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14171 From: Riley K Date: 5/27/2010
              Subject: Seeking Con-cor Wood-metal Kits from 1960's
              I have a Con-cor kit I bought in 1967 and recently started finishing. If anyone has kits from that era, especially the C&WC boxcar kit, I would like to purchase them.

              Thankss

              Riley Kinney
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14172 From: Red Ranger Date: 5/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Thanks Sean, that's it. The copies you attached pointed me to where on hoseeker I need to look. I had just looked at the instruction sheets and not in the catalogs. This helps.

              Thanks, Don

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Don,
              >
              > I only have a minute to respond. What you have is a pre-war consolidation. The motor, if it is fixable, is original and should be kept with it.
              >
              > Jim H may have some good photos of this version.
              >
              > Here are a couple pages from HOseeker
              >
              > Sean
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Red Ranger <don_hud@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 9:41:44 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Consolidation Questions
              >
              >  
              > I think this may be my first post to this group. I have been a member for a while but just a reader. Now I have a question or two.
              >
              > I recently acquired a Varney 2-8-0 consolidation that was in unknown running condition. It appears to be very old and is not in running condition. The shell is a one-piece brass or bronze casting. The frame is a die-cast with pockets for the axle bearings. All of the drivers are sprung except for the geared driver. The other drivers each have a box shaped two-piece bearing that fits over the axle and held together by two screws. This then fits into the frame pockets with leaf spring type springs under them.
              >
              > I do not know the diameter of the drive gear or the number of teeth but it is brass and a bit small.
              >
              > The motor is nothing like I have ever seen before. Because the drive gear is small and the frame thick, the armature of the motor is more to the bottom side of the motor frame. The frame of the motor is colored bronze on the outside but appears to be die-cast metal and it is broken in several places. Not sure if it can be repaired. The motor will run it you hold all the pieces together correctly. The motor frame has an arm at the top that comes down the front of the motor and holds the other end of the armature.
              >
              > I have seen another photo documentation of a Varney consolidation restore but that one has a V2 motor and the frame is much different and I have looked on Ho Seeker but their documentation is also not like what I have.
              >
              > Can anyone tell me if they know what it is that I have?
              >
              > Is the motor worth fixing. If not, does anyone have an idea for a good replacement motor?
              >
              > Is using a gearbox a good option? If I should go the gearbox route, how do I know what will work on this and how do I install it.
              >
              > Can anyone point me to some information about the model version?
              >
              > If I have not described what I have very well, let me know and I will try to clarify or provide some photos.
              > Any advice is greatly appreciated.
              >
              > Thanks, Don
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14173 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Don, You have a pre-war Heavy Consolidation with a V-1 motor. Depending
              upon your intentions in how you want to value this engine, yes, it can
              certainly be worthwhile restoring the broken motor if you want the model to be
              original. If you just want to operate it as an "old" engine, sure you could go
              with a Pittman DC-71, but as long as the magnet remains in one piece -- and
              you can properly align the frame pieces when assembling them, to prevent
              any binding, there's no reason why the motor shouldn't run (mind you, this is
              a SIX VOLT motor). There's one other caveat in getting this engine to run
              on the original 6-Volt motor, and that is, that over the 70 some years that
              these motors have been around, the magnets of many (most?) of them have
              weakened to varying degrees, requiring re-magnetizing -- and can't be expected
              to have the pull otherwise.

              If the motor frame pieces fit together tightly when hand-assembling them,
              so that there's no play in the pieces, you should be good to go when
              assembling them in that there's an excellent possibility that there will be no
              binding of the armature as it spins. A gel-type cyanoacryllic Super Glue should
              work, or a good 2-part Epoxy glue -- unless someone else has a better
              suggestion. Plastic Steel should probably even work. If there's a problem with
              trying to reassemble the frame, you could try to locate another one. At
              least you now know what to look for (the Varney part number for this Main Motor
              Frame is "M-2"). I have also seen V-1 motors on eBay too.

              If you don't even want to attempt getting the engine back to operating on 6
              Volts, you could try locating a Varney 12 Volt V-3 motor to replace the
              V-1. While this would not exactly be a restoration back to original, at least
              it would be Varney-sanctioned, as the manufacturer recommended this as one
              of the conversions to 12 Volts for the pre-War engines. The other
              recommendation, I believe by Pittman, was to use a DC-71 (or DC-70, I don't quite
              remember) armature to replace the 6-volt V-1 armature.

              Now, there were three different gear ratios used in the pre-War engines --
              40 - 1 Ratio, and 35 - 1 Ratio and 29 - 1 Ratio. Your Consolidation used a
              29 to 1 Ratio -- which has a 64 pitch. This may help you if you need to
              obtain another worm gear, although you should be able to use the one now on the
              V-1, for any other motor you decide to use. The V-3 motor is not nearly as
              easy to find as a Pittman motor, but well worth getting if you can as it's
              7-Pole (not 5-Pole, like the Pittman). I would not attempt trying to change
              the Driver Gear, as once you pull one of the Drivers you would need to
              "quarter" the Driver set again. The pre-War Drivers are not self-quartering,
              like the post-War Drivers are. If you should decide to go with a gear box,
              Northwest Shortline should have something to fit your needs; A Pittman DC-71
              would be compatible with it. Ray Wetzel

              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14174 From: Red Ranger Date: 5/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Thanks Ray

              A lot of good helpful information. I think I will start out trying to see if I can fix the V1 motor. I will see if I can remove the frame and see if I can get the pieces epoxied back together and get it running.

              When I first got this engine, all of the drivers were frozen in place. It is actually in pretty good shape, but does not look like it has been run in a long time. In fact I think it had been just being used as a display. I have it down now to just the frame and the drivers and have them turning pretty freely now but when I put the side rods on I get some binding when trying to turn them by hand. I'm still working to make sure everything turns nice and smooth and trying to not break or lose anything in the process. Will let you know how it goes.

              Thanks, Don


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
              >
              > Don, You have a pre-war Heavy Consolidation with a V-1 motor. Depending
              > upon your intentions in how you want to value this engine, yes, it can
              > certainly be worthwhile restoring the broken motor if you want the model to be
              > original. If you just want to operate it as an "old" engine, sure you could go
              > with a Pittman DC-71, but as long as the magnet remains in one piece -- and
              > you can properly align the frame pieces when assembling them, to prevent
              > any binding, there's no reason why the motor shouldn't run (mind you, this is
              > a SIX VOLT motor). There's one other caveat in getting this engine to run
              > on the original 6-Volt motor, and that is, that over the 70 some years that
              > these motors have been around, the magnets of many (most?) of them have
              > weakened to varying degrees, requiring re-magnetizing -- and can't be expected
              > to have the pull otherwise.
              >
              > If the motor frame pieces fit together tightly when hand-assembling them,
              > so that there's no play in the pieces, you should be good to go when
              > assembling them in that there's an excellent possibility that there will be no
              > binding of the armature as it spins. A gel-type cyanoacryllic Super Glue should
              > work, or a good 2-part Epoxy glue -- unless someone else has a better
              > suggestion. Plastic Steel should probably even work. If there's a problem with
              > trying to reassemble the frame, you could try to locate another one. At
              > least you now know what to look for (the Varney part number for this Main Motor
              > Frame is "M-2"). I have also seen V-1 motors on eBay too.
              >
              > If you don't even want to attempt getting the engine back to operating on 6
              > Volts, you could try locating a Varney 12 Volt V-3 motor to replace the
              > V-1. While this would not exactly be a restoration back to original, at least
              > it would be Varney-sanctioned, as the manufacturer recommended this as one
              > of the conversions to 12 Volts for the pre-War engines. The other
              > recommendation, I believe by Pittman, was to use a DC-71 (or DC-70, I don't quite
              > remember) armature to replace the 6-volt V-1 armature.
              >
              > Now, there were three different gear ratios used in the pre-War engines --
              > 40 - 1 Ratio, and 35 - 1 Ratio and 29 - 1 Ratio. Your Consolidation used a
              > 29 to 1 Ratio -- which has a 64 pitch. This may help you if you need to
              > obtain another worm gear, although you should be able to use the one now on the
              > V-1, for any other motor you decide to use. The V-3 motor is not nearly as
              > easy to find as a Pittman motor, but well worth getting if you can as it's
              > 7-Pole (not 5-Pole, like the Pittman). I would not attempt trying to change
              > the Driver Gear, as once you pull one of the Drivers you would need to
              > "quarter" the Driver set again. The pre-War Drivers are not self-quartering,
              > like the post-War Drivers are. If you should decide to go with a gear box,
              > Northwest Shortline should have something to fit your needs; A Pittman DC-71
              > would be compatible with it. Ray Wetzel
              >
              > </HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14175 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 5/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              The drivers could be going away.
              Zamac Rot can get them.
              Make sure all the insulated sides are on the same side.
              The motor is the same as on my Super Mikado, I think.
              My motor was seized solid....had been carefully taken apart and greased with Lionel Lube, which if you have experience with such, know it turns to concrete when it sits for decades.
              Watch the setscew holding the main shaft bearing in place when you open it up.

              Is your binding with or wihout valve gear?
              With or without main rods?

              Dave


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Red Ranger" <don_hud@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Ray
              >
              > A lot of good helpful information. I think I will start out trying to see if I can fix the V1 motor. I will see if I can remove the frame and see if I can get the pieces epoxied back together and get it running.
              >
              > When I first got this engine, all of the drivers were frozen in place. It is actually in pretty good shape, but does not look like it has been run in a long time. In fact I think it had been just being used as a display. I have it down now to just the frame and the drivers and have them turning pretty freely now but when I put the side rods on I get some binding when trying to turn them by hand. I'm still working to make sure everything turns nice and smooth and trying to not break or lose anything in the process. Will let you know how it goes.
              >
              > Thanks, Don
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Don, You have a pre-war Heavy Consolidation with a V-1 motor. Depending
              > > upon your intentions in how you want to value this engine, yes, it can
              > > certainly be worthwhile restoring the broken motor if you want the model to be
              > > original. If you just want to operate it as an "old" engine, sure you could go
              > > with a Pittman DC-71, but as long as the magnet remains in one piece -- and
              > > you can properly align the frame pieces when assembling them, to prevent
              > > any binding, there's no reason why the motor shouldn't run (mind you, this is
              > > a SIX VOLT motor). There's one other caveat in getting this engine to run
              > > on the original 6-Volt motor, and that is, that over the 70 some years that
              > > these motors have been around, the magnets of many (most?) of them have
              > > weakened to varying degrees, requiring re-magnetizing -- and can't be expected
              > > to have the pull otherwise.
              > >
              > > If the motor frame pieces fit together tightly when hand-assembling them,
              > > so that there's no play in the pieces, you should be good to go when
              > > assembling them in that there's an excellent possibility that there will be no
              > > binding of the armature as it spins. A gel-type cyanoacryllic Super Glue should
              > > work, or a good 2-part Epoxy glue -- unless someone else has a better
              > > suggestion. Plastic Steel should probably even work. If there's a problem with
              > > trying to reassemble the frame, you could try to locate another one. At
              > > least you now know what to look for (the Varney part number for this Main Motor
              > > Frame is "M-2"). I have also seen V-1 motors on eBay too.
              > >
              > > If you don't even want to attempt getting the engine back to operating on 6
              > > Volts, you could try locating a Varney 12 Volt V-3 motor to replace the
              > > V-1. While this would not exactly be a restoration back to original, at least
              > > it would be Varney-sanctioned, as the manufacturer recommended this as one
              > > of the conversions to 12 Volts for the pre-War engines. The other
              > > recommendation, I believe by Pittman, was to use a DC-71 (or DC-70, I don't quite
              > > remember) armature to replace the 6-volt V-1 armature.
              > >
              > > Now, there were three different gear ratios used in the pre-War engines --
              > > 40 - 1 Ratio, and 35 - 1 Ratio and 29 - 1 Ratio. Your Consolidation used a
              > > 29 to 1 Ratio -- which has a 64 pitch. This may help you if you need to
              > > obtain another worm gear, although you should be able to use the one now on the
              > > V-1, for any other motor you decide to use. The V-3 motor is not nearly as
              > > easy to find as a Pittman motor, but well worth getting if you can as it's
              > > 7-Pole (not 5-Pole, like the Pittman). I would not attempt trying to change
              > > the Driver Gear, as once you pull one of the Drivers you would need to
              > > "quarter" the Driver set again. The pre-War Drivers are not self-quartering,
              > > like the post-War Drivers are. If you should decide to go with a gear box,
              > > Northwest Shortline should have something to fit your needs; A Pittman DC-71
              > > would be compatible with it. Ray Wetzel
              > >
              > > </HTML>
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14176 From: Nelson B Date: 5/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              I agree; it could be the slightest bit of zinc rot in the frame, the wheel centers, or both. I had the same situation with a 1950's Mantua Pacific that wasn't really visible to the naked eye (except for a slight bowing of the frame), but there was binding in the drivers that couldn't be eliminated. The frame had elongated just a little bit, just enough that it no longer lined up with the screw holes in the boiler casting, and the drivers had a pronounced wobble from the warped wheel centers.

              I really hope it's something less serious, but the crumbling motor makes me suspicious.

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > The drivers could be going away.
              > Zamac Rot can get them.
              > Make sure all the insulated sides are on the same side.
              > The motor is the same as on my Super Mikado, I think.
              > My motor was seized solid....had been carefully taken apart and greased with Lionel Lube, which if you have experience with such, know it turns to concrete when it sits for decades.
              > Watch the setscew holding the main shaft bearing in place when you open it up.
              >
              > Is your binding with or wihout valve gear?
              > With or without main rods?
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Red Ranger" <don_hud@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks Ray
              > >
              > > A lot of good helpful information. I think I will start out trying to see if I can fix the V1 motor. I will see if I can remove the frame and see if I can get the pieces epoxied back together and get it running.
              > >
              > > When I first got this engine, all of the drivers were frozen in place. It is actually in pretty good shape, but does not look like it has been run in a long time. In fact I think it had been just being used as a display. I have it down now to just the frame and the drivers and have them turning pretty freely now but when I put the side rods on I get some binding when trying to turn them by hand. I'm still working to make sure everything turns nice and smooth and trying to not break or lose anything in the process. Will let you know how it goes.
              > >
              > > Thanks, Don
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Don, You have a pre-war Heavy Consolidation with a V-1 motor. Depending
              > > > upon your intentions in how you want to value this engine, yes, it can
              > > > certainly be worthwhile restoring the broken motor if you want the model to be
              > > > original. If you just want to operate it as an "old" engine, sure you could go
              > > > with a Pittman DC-71, but as long as the magnet remains in one piece -- and
              > > > you can properly align the frame pieces when assembling them, to prevent
              > > > any binding, there's no reason why the motor shouldn't run (mind you, this is
              > > > a SIX VOLT motor). There's one other caveat in getting this engine to run
              > > > on the original 6-Volt motor, and that is, that over the 70 some years that
              > > > these motors have been around, the magnets of many (most?) of them have
              > > > weakened to varying degrees, requiring re-magnetizing -- and can't be expected
              > > > to have the pull otherwise.
              > > >
              > > > If the motor frame pieces fit together tightly when hand-assembling them,
              > > > so that there's no play in the pieces, you should be good to go when
              > > > assembling them in that there's an excellent possibility that there will be no
              > > > binding of the armature as it spins. A gel-type cyanoacryllic Super Glue should
              > > > work, or a good 2-part Epoxy glue -- unless someone else has a better
              > > > suggestion. Plastic Steel should probably even work. If there's a problem with
              > > > trying to reassemble the frame, you could try to locate another one. At
              > > > least you now know what to look for (the Varney part number for this Main Motor
              > > > Frame is "M-2"). I have also seen V-1 motors on eBay too.
              > > >
              > > > If you don't even want to attempt getting the engine back to operating on 6
              > > > Volts, you could try locating a Varney 12 Volt V-3 motor to replace the
              > > > V-1. While this would not exactly be a restoration back to original, at least
              > > > it would be Varney-sanctioned, as the manufacturer recommended this as one
              > > > of the conversions to 12 Volts for the pre-War engines. The other
              > > > recommendation, I believe by Pittman, was to use a DC-71 (or DC-70, I don't quite
              > > > remember) armature to replace the 6-volt V-1 armature.
              > > >
              > > > Now, there were three different gear ratios used in the pre-War engines --
              > > > 40 - 1 Ratio, and 35 - 1 Ratio and 29 - 1 Ratio. Your Consolidation used a
              > > > 29 to 1 Ratio -- which has a 64 pitch. This may help you if you need to
              > > > obtain another worm gear, although you should be able to use the one now on the
              > > > V-1, for any other motor you decide to use. The V-3 motor is not nearly as
              > > > easy to find as a Pittman motor, but well worth getting if you can as it's
              > > > 7-Pole (not 5-Pole, like the Pittman). I would not attempt trying to change
              > > > the Driver Gear, as once you pull one of the Drivers you would need to
              > > > "quarter" the Driver set again. The pre-War Drivers are not self-quartering,
              > > > like the post-War Drivers are. If you should decide to go with a gear box,
              > > > Northwest Shortline should have something to fit your needs; A Pittman DC-71
              > > > would be compatible with it. Ray Wetzel
              > > >
              > > > </HTML>
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14177 From: Red Ranger Date: 5/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              I don't think there is any rot in the frame or the drivers. I think that the reason they were frozen when I first got it was from dried lubricant.

              In the center of each bearing is a little pocket to hold lubricant and that area looks a little corroded. I have worked on each one individually and have them all turning pretty smoothly now, just a little binding on the two rear drivers.

              I have the valve gear off right now and have only the side rodes mounted with screws in only the forward two drivers. The side rods are each 3 separate pieces held together with pins or screws. I think this is so the drivers can move independently with their suspension. But this also seems to be what is causing the binding, when they get a little out of sync in their rotation. But I don't see how you can prevent the same thing from happening when the running gear is all assembled and being driven by the motor. I have been just working the drivers by hand to get everything turning smoothly and not forcing anything. It is getting better. I'm hoping that if I just keep working it, I will either find the cause of the binding or all of the bearing surfaces will finally get smoothed and will no longer bind.

              The motor frame definitely has zinc rot. I have the motor apart and am going to see how well some epoxy glue will hold the pieces together. I glued two pieces last night and will check it this afternoon after work to see if it looks like it might hold. I have been giving some thought to trying to make a new frame.

              Don


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson B" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
              >
              > I agree; it could be the slightest bit of zinc rot in the frame, the wheel centers, or both. I had the same situation with a 1950's Mantua Pacific that wasn't really visible to the naked eye (except for a slight bowing of the frame), but there was binding in the drivers that couldn't be eliminated. The frame had elongated just a little bit, just enough that it no longer lined up with the screw holes in the boiler casting, and the drivers had a pronounced wobble from the warped wheel centers.
              >
              > I really hope it's something less serious, but the crumbling motor makes me suspicious.
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > The drivers could be going away.
              > > Zamac Rot can get them.
              > > Make sure all the insulated sides are on the same side.
              > > The motor is the same as on my Super Mikado, I think.
              > > My motor was seized solid....had been carefully taken apart and greased with Lionel Lube, which if you have experience with such, know it turns to concrete when it sits for decades.
              > > Watch the setscew holding the main shaft bearing in place when you open it up.
              > >
              > > Is your binding with or wihout valve gear?
              > > With or without main rods?
              > >
              > > Dave
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Red Ranger" <don_hud@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Thanks Ray
              > > >
              > > > A lot of good helpful information. I think I will start out trying to see if I can fix the V1 motor. I will see if I can remove the frame and see if I can get the pieces epoxied back together and get it running.
              > > >
              > > > When I first got this engine, all of the drivers were frozen in place. It is actually in pretty good shape, but does not look like it has been run in a long time. In fact I think it had been just being used as a display. I have it down now to just the frame and the drivers and have them turning pretty freely now but when I put the side rods on I get some binding when trying to turn them by hand. I'm still working to make sure everything turns nice and smooth and trying to not break or lose anything in the process. Will let you know how it goes.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks, Don
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@ wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Don, You have a pre-war Heavy Consolidation with a V-1 motor. Depending
              > > > > upon your intentions in how you want to value this engine, yes, it can
              > > > > certainly be worthwhile restoring the broken motor if you want the model to be
              > > > > original. If you just want to operate it as an "old" engine, sure you could go
              > > > > with a Pittman DC-71, but as long as the magnet remains in one piece -- and
              > > > > you can properly align the frame pieces when assembling them, to prevent
              > > > > any binding, there's no reason why the motor shouldn't run (mind you, this is
              > > > > a SIX VOLT motor). There's one other caveat in getting this engine to run
              > > > > on the original 6-Volt motor, and that is, that over the 70 some years that
              > > > > these motors have been around, the magnets of many (most?) of them have
              > > > > weakened to varying degrees, requiring re-magnetizing -- and can't be expected
              > > > > to have the pull otherwise.
              > > > >
              > > > > If the motor frame pieces fit together tightly when hand-assembling them,
              > > > > so that there's no play in the pieces, you should be good to go when
              > > > > assembling them in that there's an excellent possibility that there will be no
              > > > > binding of the armature as it spins. A gel-type cyanoacryllic Super Glue should
              > > > > work, or a good 2-part Epoxy glue -- unless someone else has a better
              > > > > suggestion. Plastic Steel should probably even work. If there's a problem with
              > > > > trying to reassemble the frame, you could try to locate another one. At
              > > > > least you now know what to look for (the Varney part number for this Main Motor
              > > > > Frame is "M-2"). I have also seen V-1 motors on eBay too.
              > > > >
              > > > > If you don't even want to attempt getting the engine back to operating on 6
              > > > > Volts, you could try locating a Varney 12 Volt V-3 motor to replace the
              > > > > V-1. While this would not exactly be a restoration back to original, at least
              > > > > it would be Varney-sanctioned, as the manufacturer recommended this as one
              > > > > of the conversions to 12 Volts for the pre-War engines. The other
              > > > > recommendation, I believe by Pittman, was to use a DC-71 (or DC-70, I don't quite
              > > > > remember) armature to replace the 6-volt V-1 armature.
              > > > >
              > > > > Now, there were three different gear ratios used in the pre-War engines --
              > > > > 40 - 1 Ratio, and 35 - 1 Ratio and 29 - 1 Ratio. Your Consolidation used a
              > > > > 29 to 1 Ratio -- which has a 64 pitch. This may help you if you need to
              > > > > obtain another worm gear, although you should be able to use the one now on the
              > > > > V-1, for any other motor you decide to use. The V-3 motor is not nearly as
              > > > > easy to find as a Pittman motor, but well worth getting if you can as it's
              > > > > 7-Pole (not 5-Pole, like the Pittman). I would not attempt trying to change
              > > > > the Driver Gear, as once you pull one of the Drivers you would need to
              > > > > "quarter" the Driver set again. The pre-War Drivers are not self-quartering,
              > > > > like the post-War Drivers are. If you should decide to go with a gear box,
              > > > > Northwest Shortline should have something to fit your needs; A Pittman DC-71
              > > > > would be compatible with it. Ray Wetzel
              > > > >
              > > > > </HTML>
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14178 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Don, As both Dave and Nelson mentioned, there could be zamac/(zinc) "rot"
              in your mechanism -- Main Frame or Drivers -- that's causing the binding.
              There was also the possibility of this condition causing the Motor Frame to
              now be in several pieces, which I had in mind when I posted, as this was the
              reason I specifically brought to your attention your ability to be able to
              properly align the broken motor frame pieces to be able to have it run again
              without binding of the armature shaft. A motor frame that has been somehow
              broken (due to an accidental drop to the floor, for instance), and having
              clean breaks should re-align perfectly -- often with showing only a hairline
              of where the separation was if you look close -- and should bond together in
              it's original alignment. A motor frame (or any zamac part) that has
              separated due to zamac rot most often will not re-align properly as the expansion
              and distortion of the alloy in its process of disintegration precludes its
              being reassembled to like-new proportions. Sometimes I just asume that most
              other hobbyists are familiar with zamac rot and I leave out any detail of
              this. If you're not familiar with zamac rot, it's the result of a poor or
              improper mixture of the metals that went into the castings when they were first
              poured -- sometimes even with foreign matter (dirt, etc.) finding their way
              into the melting pots, as there have been tales of using the sweepings from
              the floor to reduce waste of metal that had been trimmed away or spilled
              from the previous casting sessions. Then too, as much of the zamac rot today
              goes back to castings produced during the Korean War (early 1950's), it needs
              to also be realized that many metals that were needed to produce a proper
              mixture of such an alloy were in short supply, so some manufacturers
              improvised -- even greatly reducing the quantity of one of more necessary metals
              needed for a proper mix -- which is now causing the breaking down of this
              alloy, while other similar castings of better quality keep lasting.

              Looks like you're on the right track (oops, accidental pun here) in finding
              the bind. You'll need to take the mechanism down to only the drivers in
              their position in the Main Frame, first without the Cover Plate being
              installed, and then with it. Then add the side rods -- but even before doing that
              -- you'll need to check for any binding in the joint of these three-piece
              side rod sets. If everything turns smooth with these rods in place, add the
              main rods -- one at a time. Check for binding of the Piston Rods in the Valve
              Rod Guides in the Cylinders and for binding of the Crossheads within the
              Crosshead Guide slides (you should have Laird-Type Crosshead & Valve Gear).
              Then try to check your assembled Valve Gear for binding. You may even need
              to disassemble the valve gear and rebuild it step by step, but that's usually
              not necessary. You should be able to detect any binding in the joints
              while having it off the mechanism.

              I'm not really sure what Dave means by "Super Mikado," but Varney's Super
              Mikado (as advertised in their catalogs, and as marketed) is a post-War model
              powered by a V-2 motor; it's quite different from what you have. Still,
              the process of finding binds remains the same. In getting back to your motor,
              when you're ready to reinstall it, while it certainly needs to be secure,
              take care not to overtighten the screw that holds the lower (forward) part of
              the Motor Frame to the engine Main Frame at the point where it attached
              between the 2nd & 3rd Driver sets. The peg (with the mounting hole) on the end
              of the Motor Frame can easily break off if too much pressure is applied.
              Hasn't happened to me, but I saw it happen as I received one in this
              condition. Lots of luck; just take it one step at a time. Ray F.W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14179 From: Sean Naylor Date: 5/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              The rot is a distinct possibility here as I have had this happen on a couple of my early Varneys as well. My solution has always been to just eliminate the rot from my collection all together...no matter how valuable the piece. I have never sold someone one that i knew was bad as well. Always tossed them in the scrap pile.
               
              Only one exception... The diecast steam chest on my Mantua Mountain Mechanism kit showed some signs so I super-glued the heck out of it! Next to impossible to replace that piece!
               
              Sean


              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, May 28, 2010 9:26:18 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Consolidation Questions

               

              Don, As both Dave and Nelson mentioned, there could be zamac/(zinc) "rot"
              in your mechanism -- Main Frame or Drivers -- that's causing the binding.
              There was also the possibility of this condition causing the Motor Frame to
              now be in several pieces, which I had in mind when I posted, as this was the
              reason I specifically brought to your attention your ability to be able to
              properly align the broken motor frame pieces to be able to have it run again
              without binding of the armature shaft. A motor frame that has been somehow
              broken (due to an accidental drop to the floor, for instance), and having
              clean breaks should re-align perfectly -- often with showing only a hairline
              of where the separation was if you look close -- and should bond together in
              it's original alignment. A motor frame (or any zamac part) that has
              separated due to zamac rot most often will not re-align properly as the expansion
              and distortion of the alloy in its process of disintegration precludes its
              being reassembled to like-new proportions. Sometimes I just asume that most
              other hobbyists are familiar with zamac rot and I leave out any detail of
              this. If you're not familiar with zamac rot, it's the result of a poor or
              improper mixture of the metals that went into the castings when they were first
              poured -- sometimes even with foreign matter (dirt, etc.) finding their way
              into the melting pots, as there have been tales of using the sweepings from
              the floor to reduce waste of metal that had been trimmed away or spilled
              from the previous casting sessions. Then too, as much of the zamac rot today
              goes back to castings produced during the Korean War (early 1950's), it needs
              to also be realized that many metals that were needed to produce a proper
              mixture of such an alloy were in short supply, so some manufacturers
              improvised -- even greatly reducing the quantity of one of more necessary metals
              needed for a proper mix -- which is now causing the breaking down of this
              alloy, while other similar castings of better quality keep lasting.

              Looks like you're on the right track (oops, accidental pun here) in finding
              the bind. You'll need to take the mechanism down to only the drivers in
              their position in the Main Frame, first without the Cover Plate being
              installed, and then with it. Then add the side rods -- but even before doing that
              -- you'll need to check for any binding in the joint of these three-piece
              side rod sets. If everything turns smooth with these rods in place, add the
              main rods -- one at a time. Check for binding of the Piston Rods in the Valve
              Rod Guides in the Cylinders and for binding of the Crossheads within the
              Crosshead Guide slides (you should have Laird-Type Crosshead & Valve Gear).
              Then try to check your assembled Valve Gear for binding. You may even need
              to disassemble the valve gear and rebuild it step by step, but that's usually
              not necessary. You should be able to detect any binding in the joints
              while having it off the mechanism.

              I'm not really sure what Dave means by "Super Mikado," but Varney's Super
              Mikado (as advertised in their catalogs, and as marketed) is a post-War model
              powered by a V-2 motor; it's quite different from what you have. Still,
              the process of finding binds remains the same. In getting back to your motor,
              when you're ready to reinstall it, while it certainly needs to be secure,
              take care not to overtighten the screw that holds the lower (forward) part of
              the Motor Frame to the engine Main Frame at the point where it attached
              between the 2nd & 3rd Driver sets. The peg (with the mounting hole) on the end
              of the Motor Frame can easily break off if too much pressure is applied.
              Hasn't happened to me, but I saw it happen as I received one in this
              condition. Lots of luck; just take it one step at a time. Ray F.W. </HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14180 From: Garry Spear Date: 5/28/2010
              Subject: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              I have super glued many 30 - 50 castings over the last 30 years.  All glued pieces seem to have stabilized.  I have done Lionel, AF, Ives, & Dorfan collectable trains.  Also MDC, Athearn, Mantua, Varney, Authacast and other HO items.

              I use the thinest (water like) glue and coat all surfaces, being sure to fill cracks.

              Save those casting with minor problems.

              Garry Spear

              On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
               

              The rot is a distinct possibility here as I have had this happen on a couple of my early Varneys as well. My solution has always been to just eliminate the rot from my collection all together...no matter how valuable the piece. I have never sold someone one that i knew was bad as well. Always tossed them in the scrap pile.
               
              Only one exception... The diecast steam chest on my Mantua Mountain Mechanism kit showed some signs so I super-glued the heck out of it! Next to impossible to replace that piece!
               
              Sean


              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, May 28, 2010 9:26:18 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Consolidation Questions

               

              Don, As both Dave and Nelson mentioned, there could be zamac/(zinc) "rot"
              in your mechanism -- Main Frame or Drivers -- that's causing the binding.
              There was also the possibility of this condition causing the Motor Frame to
              now be in several pieces, which I had in mind when I posted, as this was the
              reason I specifically brought to your attention your ability to be able to
              properly align the broken motor frame pieces to be able to have it run again
              without binding of the armature shaft. A motor frame that has been somehow
              broken (due to an accidental drop to the floor, for instance), and having
              clean breaks should re-align perfectly -- often with showing only a hairline
              of where the separation was if you look close -- and should bond together in
              it's original alignment. A motor frame (or any zamac part) that has
              separated due to zamac rot most often will not re-align properly as the expansion
              and distortion of the alloy in its process of disintegration precludes its
              being reassembled to like-new proportions. Sometimes I just asume that most
              other hobbyists are familiar with zamac rot and I leave out any detail of
              this. If you're not familiar with zamac rot, it's the result of a poor or
              improper mixture of the metals that went into the castings when they were first
              poured -- sometimes even with foreign matter (dirt, etc.) finding their way
              into the melting pots, as there have been tales of using the sweepings from
              the floor to reduce waste of metal that had been trimmed away or spilled
              from the previous casting sessions. Then too, as much of the zamac rot today
              goes back to castings produced during the Korean War (early 1950's), it needs
              to also be realized that many metals that were needed to produce a proper
              mixture of such an alloy were in short supply, so some manufacturers
              improvised -- even greatly reducing the quantity of one of more necessary metals
              needed for a proper mix -- which is now causing the breaking down of this
              alloy, while other similar castings of better quality keep lasting.

              Looks like you're on the right track (oops, accidental pun here) in finding
              the bind. You'll need to take the mechanism down to only the drivers in
              their position in the Main Frame, first without the Cover Plate being
              installed, and then with it. Then add the side rods -- but even before doing that
              -- you'll need to check for any binding in the joint of these three-piece
              side rod sets. If everything turns smooth with these rods in place, add the
              main rods -- one at a time. Check for binding of the Piston Rods in the Valve
              Rod Guides in the Cylinders and for binding of the Crossheads within the
              Crosshead Guide slides (you should have Laird-Type Crosshead & Valve Gear).
              Then try to check your assembled Valve Gear for binding. You may even need
              to disassemble the valve gear and rebuild it step by step, but that's usually
              not necessary. You should be able to detect any binding in the joints
              while having it off the mechanism.

              I'm not really sure what Dave means by "Super Mikado," but Varney's Super
              Mikado (as advertised in their catalogs, and as marketed) is a post-War model
              powered by a V-2 motor; it's quite different from what you have. Still,
              the process of finding binds remains the same. In getting back to your motor,
              when you're ready to reinstall it, while it certainly needs to be secure,
              take care not to overtighten the screw that holds the lower (forward) part of
              the Motor Frame to the engine Main Frame at the point where it attached
              between the 2nd & 3rd Driver sets. The peg (with the mounting hole) on the end
              of the Motor Frame can easily break off if too much pressure is applied.
              Hasn't happened to me, but I saw it happen as I received one in this
              condition. Lots of luck; just take it one step at a time. Ray F.W. </HTML>



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14181 From: greg10562 Date: 5/28/2010
              Subject: Ambroid Skybox Decals
              Does anybody know where I can get a replacement set of decals for the Ambroid Skybox flatcar? I recently built one and ran into trouble with the decals. They are old and dried out. Several were destroyed when i tried to apply them. I have since read up on resoring, or at least using old decals. Thanks for your help.
              Greg
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14182 From: Nelson B Date: 5/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              One other thought -- aren't the side rods zamac as well? There could have been swelling in those too, or the screw holes could be enlarged, because zamac doesn't wear too well. I never realized zinc rot could be so undetectable until I got that Pacific frame in a box of old Mantua parts. Even if the frame is a loss, I got more rivets and valve gear linkage than I'll ever need, all for $5. :)

              Anyway, that's a good looking Consolidation, and a husky prototype at that.

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > The rot is a distinct possibility here as I have had this happen on a couple of my early Varneys as well. My solution has always been to just eliminate the rot from my collection all together...no matter how valuable the piece. I have never sold someone one that i knew was bad as well. Always tossed them in the scrap pile.
              >
              > Only one exception... The diecast steam chest on my Mantua Mountain Mechanism kit showed some signs so I super-glued the heck out of it! Next to impossible to replace that piece!
              >
              > Sean
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14183 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Both the side rod sets (assembled with brass rivets) and the main rods were
              zamac, riding on steel main crank pins and steel crank pin screws
              (shouldered). With poor maintenance, there could likely be wear in the rod holes if
              they were not lubricated.

              Many "diseased" (zinc rot) parts can sometimes show pimpling on the surface
              of the castings, which would indicate rot starting to take place even if
              there were no signs of cracks appearing. It's possible that some slight
              expansion may be taking place even at that time, but I couldn't verify it.

              Probably about one of the worst cases of zamac rot I've seen was on an
              AristoCraft engine, where just looking at the main rods had me wondering what
              was holding them together. It looked like all's you had to do was breathe on
              them heavily and they'd fall apart. I doubt they'd stand up to running the
              engine any more than 20 feet, if that.

              By far, THE worst cases I've seen of zamac rot were on those "New One"
              Camelbacks. I used to see at least one or two at practically every train show
              I'd go to, and every one of them were in various stages of disintegration. A
              nice looking model otherwise, but you couldn't even get enough sound parts
              from half a dozen of them if you wanted to build one engine out of them all.
              Ray F. W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14184 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Hi Guys,
               
              Back in the bad old daze, I used to work at Village Hobby Shop in Austin, Texas, great place, someone had brought in a box and a bag of old Marklin stuff, all of it was postwar diecast, all HO, unfortunately, every piece in there had bad cases of zinc rot, you couldn't take anything out of the box without something falling off, sad site to see, these pieces must have been produced right after the war, all of it was the 3 rail HO, very sad indeed...
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 7:12:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Consolidation Questions

               

              Both the side rod sets (assembled with brass rivets) and the main rods were
              zamac, riding on steel main crank pins and steel crank pin screws
              (shouldered). With poor maintenance, there could likely be wear in the rod holes if
              they were not lubricated.

              Many "diseased" (zinc rot) parts can sometimes show pimpling on the surface
              of the castings, which would indicate rot starting to take place even if
              there were no signs of cracks appearing. It's possible that some slight
              expansion may be taking place even at that time, but I couldn't verify it.

              Probably about one of the worst cases of zamac rot I've seen was on an
              AristoCraft engine, where just looking at the main rods had me wondering what
              was holding them together. It looked like all's you had to do was breathe on
              them heavily and they'd fall apart. I doubt they'd stand up to running the
              engine any more than 20 feet, if that.

              By far, THE worst cases I've seen of zamac rot were on those "New One"
              Camelbacks. I used to see at least one or two at practically every train show
              I'd go to, and every one of them were in various stages of disintegration. A
              nice looking model otherwise, but you couldn't even get enough sound parts
              from half a dozen of them if you wanted to build one engine out of them all.
              Ray F. W. </HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14185 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/29/2010
              Subject: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Zinc rot or "zincpest" is a progressive process that nothing can stop,
              so all attempts at stabilizing or curing are palliative at most, just
              "buying time". Filling the myriad cracks of a failing piece with ACC
              or thin epoxy can certainly stave things off and extend the life of
              the part- sometimes for a considerable length of time. Eventually,
              however, the zinc on both sides of any glue line will inevitably
              disintegrate, and the "stabilized" part is once again falling apart.

              I am a big, but critical fan of ACC glue. Although its absolute
              strength is high, it is also very brittle with very poor resistance to
              shearing, resulting in almost no inherent resilience or toughness. As
              a result, its failure rate securing parts subject to any structural
              leverage is very low, as is its strength as a coating. Because of
              these drawbacks, one has to be very selective as to how ACC is used;
              e.g. metal models assembled or held together with ACC commonly will be
              like time bombs for the unwary handlers or user, especially if the
              normal presumption is that the model is held together with the usual
              solder, or screws.

              Instead of ACC, I usually "stabilize" important rotting castings with
              epoxy- not the expedient 5-minute stuff (very brittle with poor
              resistance to shear with an insidious short pot life that too commonly
              results in the application of already-greatly-weakened glue ), but the
              good regular stuff that takes about 2 hours to set up, and overnight
              to fully cure. Such epoxy has excellent resilience, and relatively
              very high resistance to shearing stress.

              As a part of the same process, I also at the same time coat the non-
              visible portion of the failing casting's surface with the epoxy, this
              tough and strong coating functioning quite well in actually holding
              together a rotting casting that is desperately attempting to crack
              open and expand.

              I have also structurally shored-up larger rotting castings (such as a
              tender body casting) with the application of epoxy-soaked fibreglass
              cloth to the interior. In the tender body example, I simply crumpled
              up a wad of cloth, soaked it in epoxy and pressed it very carefully
              into the interior of the casting, making certain that all surfaces
              were first generously coated, and then let it cure. The particular
              example that most commonly comes to my mind is the otherwise intact
              painted cast tender of a pre-war Marklin HO 4-6-4 (with nazi herald)
              that was a virtual sea of cracks . I epoxied the interior in the '70s,
              and this tender still is intact and can be handled with relative safety.

              I have also used these epoxy techniques with some American Flyer and
              Lionel locomotive castings from the '30s, and some very few Mantua
              castings.

              Epoxy knows no solvents, once it is fully cured. ACC can usually be
              undone with a debonder (as long as the debonder can reach into the
              joint), but epoxy can only be undone by mechanical means or by
              application of very high heat (cure worse than the disease!).

              In the '70s and '80s, Model Railroader promoted the use of ACC for
              cementing "super detailing" on to both brass and cast metal steam
              locomotives. As a result, it is not an uncommon experience for the
              unwary new owner of these locomotives, or the memory-challenged
              original owner to happily pick up the locomotive, but then being
              surprised by having only a hand-full of parts in hand, the newly-
              denuded locomotive still calmly residing on the track or table top.

              Denny




              Denny S. Anspach MD
              Sacramento
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14186 From: Joe Date: 5/29/2010
              Subject: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Denny;
              This post is a keeper. The info you have supplied can and will
              be used by me when the time comes (soon).
              Joe O'Loughlin

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
              >
              > Zinc rot or "zincpest" is a progressive process that nothing can stop,
              > so all attempts at stabilizing or curing are palliative at most, just
              > "buying time". Filling the myriad cracks of a failing piece with ACC
              > or thin epoxy can certainly stave things off and extend the life of
              > the part- sometimes for a considerable length of time. Eventually,
              > however, the zinc on both sides of any glue line will inevitably
              > disintegrate, and the "stabilized" part is once again falling apart.
              >
              > I am a big, but critical fan of ACC glue. Although its absolute
              > strength is high, it is also very brittle with very poor resistance to
              > shearing, resulting in almost no inherent resilience or toughness. As
              > a result, its failure rate securing parts subject to any structural
              > leverage is very low, as is its strength as a coating. Because of
              > these drawbacks, one has to be very selective as to how ACC is used;
              > e.g. metal models assembled or held together with ACC commonly will be
              > like time bombs for the unwary handlers or user, especially if the
              > normal presumption is that the model is held together with the usual
              > solder, or screws.
              >
              > Instead of ACC, I usually "stabilize" important rotting castings with
              > epoxy- not the expedient 5-minute stuff (very brittle with poor
              > resistance to shear with an insidious short pot life that too commonly
              > results in the application of already-greatly-weakened glue ), but the
              > good regular stuff that takes about 2 hours to set up, and overnight
              > to fully cure. Such epoxy has excellent resilience, and relatively
              > very high resistance to shearing stress.
              >
              > As a part of the same process, I also at the same time coat the non-
              > visible portion of the failing casting's surface with the epoxy, this
              > tough and strong coating functioning quite well in actually holding
              > together a rotting casting that is desperately attempting to crack
              > open and expand.
              >
              > I have also structurally shored-up larger rotting castings (such as a
              > tender body casting) with the application of epoxy-soaked fibreglass
              > cloth to the interior. In the tender body example, I simply crumpled
              > up a wad of cloth, soaked it in epoxy and pressed it very carefully
              > into the interior of the casting, making certain that all surfaces
              > were first generously coated, and then let it cure. The particular
              > example that most commonly comes to my mind is the otherwise intact
              > painted cast tender of a pre-war Marklin HO 4-6-4 (with nazi herald)
              > that was a virtual sea of cracks . I epoxied the interior in the '70s,
              > and this tender still is intact and can be handled with relative safety.
              >
              > I have also used these epoxy techniques with some American Flyer and
              > Lionel locomotive castings from the '30s, and some very few Mantua
              > castings.
              >
              > Epoxy knows no solvents, once it is fully cured. ACC can usually be
              > undone with a debonder (as long as the debonder can reach into the
              > joint), but epoxy can only be undone by mechanical means or by
              > application of very high heat (cure worse than the disease!).
              >
              > In the '70s and '80s, Model Railroader promoted the use of ACC for
              > cementing "super detailing" on to both brass and cast metal steam
              > locomotives. As a result, it is not an uncommon experience for the
              > unwary new owner of these locomotives, or the memory-challenged
              > original owner to happily pick up the locomotive, but then being
              > surprised by having only a hand-full of parts in hand, the newly-
              > denuded locomotive still calmly residing on the track or table top.
              >
              > Denny
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Denny S. Anspach MD
              > Sacramento
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14187 From: Graeme Date: 5/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              In message <C114C57B-3819-4C5B-AD5A-8F08430C85A6@...>, Denny
              Anspach <danspach@...> writes
              >Zinc rot or "zincpest" is a progressive process that nothing can stop,
              >so all attempts at stabilizing or curing are palliative at most, just
              >"buying time".

              Superb article - thank you. May I have your permission to post it, with
              acknowledgement, to other toy train groups? I am thinking in particular
              of those dealing with vintage 0 gauge trains.

              Thanks again,

              --
              Graeme Eldred, Scotland
              TCA 04-57743
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14188 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              On 5/29/2010 10:58 AM, Denny Anspach wrote:
              > I am a big, but critical fan of ACC glue. Although its absolute
              > strength is high, it is also very brittle with very poor resistance to
              > shearing, resulting in almost no inherent resilience or toughness. As
              > a result, its failure rate securing parts subject to any structural
              > leverage is very low, as is its strength as a coating. Because of
              > these drawbacks, one has to be very selective as to how ACC is used;
              > e.g. metal models assembled or held together with ACC commonly will be
              > like time bombs for the unwary handlers or user, especially if the
              > normal presumption is that the model is held together with the usual
              > solder, or screws.

              I first tried using ACC for the wheel stop on a switching layout,
              but they regularly broke off when bumped for the reason mentioned above.
              I have had much better success with good old Walthers Goo.

              > Instead of ACC, I usually "stabilize" important rotting castings with
              > epoxy- not the expedient 5-minute stuff (very brittle with poor
              > resistance to shear with an insidious short pot life that too commonly
              > results in the application of already-greatly-weakened glue ), but the
              > good regular stuff that takes about 2 hours to set up, and overnight
              > to fully cure. Such epoxy has excellent resilience, and relatively
              > very high resistance to shearing stress.

              Has anybody tried JB Weld on rotting castings?

              --

              Rick Jones

              When the aging actress saw her first strands of gray hair she
              thought she'd dye.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14189 From: Ken Date: 5/29/2010
              Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              First see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak
              In the mid 70s I worked for miller S Scale owned by Bob Miller.
              Bob made an ALCo S2 from 1945-82
              We did our own in house casting of the frame and truck frame. We used Zamac provided in 5lb ingots from NJZCo. Around 1979 he started getting some castings returned for replacement. They had started to crumble. We set out to determine why. He had a friend at the local college who was a metallurgist who did an analysis of the metal. He found all the proper metals in the mix. But he also found cadmium. Bob never had that in the shop. But when other jobs at the shop kept the Railroad Dept without manpower he sent the dies to a casting company in East Chicago IN. They also did cadmium plating. So we found out where contamination
              came from. What we did not know was how much was needed to cause it.
              Se we setup a test. Bob had several hundred pounds of Zamac in the tool room. We did 5 lb lots. Melted it in the electric furnace and added powdered cadmium. How much cadmium? From 1/2 of one percent to 1/1000 of one percent of 5 lbs. We did 20 heats of various fractional percentages and poured them into a stainless cup shaped mold. We decontaminated the mold prior to each pour. The ingots were cooled and stamped with the percentage of cadmium. These were placed in order on the top shelf of a shelf unit. We checked them once a week.
              After 5 months the 1/2 of one percent alloy started to swell. At 7 months it crumbled completely. We watched the others. Eventually the top 5 contaminated ingots showed deteoration within 18 months. The next 5, after 3 years showed some corrosion. Bob then sold his business. I took the test home and set them on a shelf. I promptly forgot about them till a couple of years ago. The test was 30 years old and everyone of the remaining 10 with as little as 1/1000 of one percent showed deterioration. So my conclusion is simple. Keep all cadnium away from zamac. It should be noted We did try contamination with Nickle and Chrome. The problem here was the melt point of these metals was so much higher than zamac the zamac oxidized during the melting process. You can try CA put it only penetrates slightly. Theres lots of metal under it. I make a rubber mold and cast a new part. Hope this helps. Ken
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14190 From: jim heckard Date: 5/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
                          I would like to add a few thoughts to the discussion about zinc pest, use of ACC glues and cadmium. I am not a chemist or a metallurgist but having been in HO for 52 years I have a little experience.
               
                   Lets start with ACC glues. I  always drill holes and use a pin to attach parts when using ACC glues. I have been doing that for many years and have never lost a part. I guess the pin helps with that shearing effect. I have done this even with cracked frames and have had them hold up from then to now, some for over 40 years.
               
                   Many years ago in the late 60's I was given tubes of an ACC type glue that the Air Force used and never had a problem with it. Again I don't know the chemical make up of it but it sure has held since then.
               
                    Zinc pest / cracking.  I'm sure different companies used different formulas of zamac, alloys or what ever they cast in. I have to think that the mixtures could "be cheapened" by using different amounts to produce the casting material they used. Even without any contamination getting into the mix I'm sure this could change the characteristic abilities of the casting material.
               
                     Here I would like to comment on the cadmium experiment a member wrote about. This was very interesting.  That took a lot of time to get results. I do want to interject that years ago FAMOCO ( Famous Model Co.) cast parts in "Cadmium" and stated so in ads,etc.. Again I have no idea of what exactly was in the mix but I have yet to find any Zinc Pest ( or whatever anyone calls the cracking or rot ) in FAMOCO parts. Even their cast metal pantograph kits.
               
                      Back to zinc pest from contamination. Again I believe there were contaminates, for various reasons, got into the melted casting metals. The varying amounts that got in had to affect how bad and how far down the road parts cracked, distorted and disintegrated.
               
                       Can any parts be saved. Based on my experience yes. While some parts crack, warped  and continue to disintegrate there are others that do stop and unless these parts are under an enormous amount of stress ( like a side or main rod ) many can be saved by using many methods including a runny ACC. I base this on the time my parts have survived without anymore cracking which sometimes is more years then when the part originally made.
               
                      I have heard the stories others probably have heard about how bad this rot can be. One story had a mint Varney Yellowstone sitting on a piece of track in a hobby shop.. Slowly with time the drivers totally disintegrated until the engine was on it's axles.  Ray F W cited another engine that was really known for cracking. The 4-6-0 New One Camelback sold by General Hobbies / HOTCO. Finding one in good shape especially the tender is very hard but this also points out the possibly use of different casting mixtures ( cheaper ) or contamination like throwing used metal even from the floor back into the mix. While New One products sold By Polk / Aristo Craft and GHC / HOTCO where not immune to some cracking / rot ( certain models more then others ) none seemed to be to the degree this Camelback seems to always have. In my opinion all these engines should have cracked / deteriorated to the same degree that where made originally by New One. They should have been made using exactly the same mixtures but it is the variables I cite being the difference.
               
                   My take on things talking from my experience with " Zinc pest"  By the numerous replies there were other ways to "fight" this problem as is the original article by Denny Ansbach is very useful and enlightening.
               
                                                Jim H
               
                        
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Rick Jones
              Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 4:12 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions

               

              On 5/29/2010 10:58 AM, Denny Anspach wrote:
              > I am a big, but critical fan of ACC glue. Although its absolute
              > strength is high, it is also very brittle with very poor resistance to
              > shearing, resulting in almost no inherent resilience or toughness. As
              > a result, its failure rate securing parts subject to any structural
              > leverage is very low, as is its strength as a coating. Because of
              > these drawbacks, one has to be very selective as to how ACC is used;
              > e.g. metal models assembled or held together with ACC commonly will be
              > like time bombs for the unwary handlers or user, especially if the
              > normal presumption is that the model is held together with the usual
              > solder, or screws.

              I first tried using ACC for the wheel stop on a switching layout,
              but they regularly broke off when bumped for the reason mentioned above.
              I have had much better success with good old Walthers Goo.

              > Instead of ACC, I usually "stabilize" important rotting castings with
              > epoxy- not the expedient 5-minute stuff (very brittle with poor
              > resistance to shear with an insidious short pot life that too commonly
              > results in the application of already-greatly-weakened glue ), but the
              > good regular stuff that takes about 2 hours to set up, and overnight
              > to fully cure. Such epoxy has excellent resilience, and relatively
              > very high resistance to shearing stress.

              Has anybody tried JB Weld on rotting castings?

              --

              Rick Jones

              When the aging actress saw her first strands of gray hair she
              thought she'd dye.

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14191 From: Ken Date: 5/29/2010
              Subject: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              PLEASE read between the paragraphs.....

              > Many years ago in the late 60's I was given tubes of an ACC type glue that the Air Force used and never had a problem with it. Again I don't know the chemical make up of it but it sure has held since then.

              (That was Eastman 910 or the Dupont equivilant. Google eastman 910 and reat its original usage. Pretty cool stuff.)
              >
              > Zinc pest / cracking. I'm sure different companies used different formulas of zamac, alloys or what ever they cast in. I have to think that the mixtures could "be cheapened" by using different amounts to produce the casting material they used. Even without any contamination getting into the mix I'm sure this could change the characteristic abilities of the casting material.

              (If it is called Zamac or Zamak it MUST be purchased from New Jersey Zinc. And they make a specific formulation or alloy for you. Now when the original patents ran out ANYONE could make a mix and call it zamac or Mazak in England. NJZ bought Zamac does not crumble. I have some 5lb ingots that are from 1935 and are still perfect now. The problem is where and who did the casting. Sloppy handling causes the crumbling. Cad contamination is it! No question. Its been proven.)
              >
              > Here I would like to comment on the cadmium experiment a member wrote about. This was very interesting. That took a lot of time to get results. I do want to interject that years ago FAMOCO ( Famous Model Co.) cast parts in "Cadmium" and stated so in ads,etc.. Again I have no idea of what exactly was in the mix but I have yet to find any Zinc Pest ( or whatever anyone calls the cracking or rot ) in FAMOCO parts. Even their cast metal pantograph kits.

              (FOMOCO,this has nothing to do with Zamac contamination. Cadinum can be cast too. It makes nice castings. not too strong though.. But now a days its nearly thought of as a hazardous material. Thats why NiCad batteries MUST be recycled properly. Cadinum causes all sorts of neurological issues when handled improperly. Unknown in the 40s and 50s . All my Fomoco models have been painted or Copper plated so I do not touch the bare metal)
              Better to be safe! Ken
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14192 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Jim, Ken: Could you please state when NJ Zinc's patents ran out. I notice
              your 5 Lb. ingots of NJ Zinc's zamac are still in good shape. If this were
              the only source of zamac at the time, at least pre-War, then are we to
              assume that a reliable manufacturer such as Varney had sometimes mishandled this
              compound when casting it?

              Adding to Jim's noteable/consistent failures of New One products (but not
              to extensively list them all), I'd like to draw attention to the absolutely
              hugh failure rate of John English tenders. Keeping in mind that you hardly
              ever see a John English boiler (or many other locomotive parts) affected by
              zamac rot -- yet the tenders, often even including their trucks, sold with
              these same engines are notorious for having rot. Just observing what appears
              to be a vast difference in the quality of metals going into each of these
              sections by the way they've held up over the years, would seem to indicate
              they were extremely likely to have been cast by different manufacturers. I
              mention this as, even though many modelers may never have noticed a difference
              in zamac hardness, just the fact that some zamac (by AristoCraft, for
              instance) can be more "brittle," other zamac (by Roundhouse/MDC, for instance) can
              actually be bent back in shape with care after it has warped -- and I'm
              talking about good sound zamac here, not "rotted" metal. Perhaps John English
              farmed out his tender manufacturing to a casting outfit that wasn't as
              careful as they should have been, as they're certainly not of the same quality as
              his engines..

              One last thing here that I'd like to point out is that many different
              locomotive manufacturers must have used different zamac formulas (after the
              patent was expired), as it's obvious that the hardness of the metal varies; some
              manufacturers' castings are softer (or harder) than others, leading me to
              believe there were varying amounts of lead used -- but the formulas used are
              consistent to each manufacturer as each ones' products don't vary within
              their own runs -- but only between their's and another's. Might it be possible
              too, that even though NJ Zinc was the only producer of zamac a manufacturer
              could buy from while the patent was still in effect, that once the metal was
              bought, perhaps some manufacturers added more lead or copper to their
              molten zamac before they poured it for various reasons like making it "stronger"
              or allowing it to pick up more "detail," or just to stretch the $. Ray F.W.
              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14193 From: Denny Anspach Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Zincpest is the result of contamination during the casting process
              resulting from the caster's lack of foreknowledge of what such
              contamination can and would do so many years into the future. The
              most common simple narrative as to how such contamination would
              commonly occur is to relate how the sweepings from the casting floor
              would be routinely and casually just tossed into the molten mix.
              Perhaps, this would be done only once a day or so, which might explain
              why the castings of some batches retain their integrity "forever",
              while the castings of others progressively decline to dust.

              Other forms and types of "contamination" obviously have had to occur
              inasmuch as entire lines of cast objects, e.g. American Flyer O gauge
              B&O 4-6-2's of c. 1937-39 have gone to dust, while other lines of
              locomotive castings nominally from the same factory during the same
              time still show none of the same problems all these years later.

              The c. 1940 Marklin 4-6-4 mentioned previously: The locomotive body
              castings on almost all of these models still are solid and intact,
              while the tender castings are now mostly dust.

              The majority of MDC castings in my hands have disintegrated over the
              years, but not all. Running boards are the most notorious, but all
              castings are vulnerable.

              Ulrich castings seem almost always to be completely intact all these
              years later (just one reason why so many Ulrich models are still in
              high demand by the prototype modeling fraternity).

              Quite a few early Mantua castings are brittle, but few are falling
              apart. I have a 1947 wood-boxed kit for a Mantua Pacific. Every
              single casting in the kit is as shiny, bright, sharp and intact as a
              brand new silver dollar

              Relatively few Varney castings have disintegrated, nor have Red Ball-
              especially the latter. M. Dale Newton was a printer, and I have
              always thought (admittedly in ignorance) that his castings (and a lot
              of Varneys) were perhaps better described as lead alloys than Zamac.
              The Varney experience is especially interesting inasmuch as he
              reportedly used so many different casting job shops over the years.

              Contact Cements: The use of GOO has been suggested. GOO, along with
              some other contact cements, are indeed very strong, very resilient
              glues that properly applied will hold as strong 50 years from now as
              days after application, and in this regard they certainly deserve
              consideration. Keep in mind that such glues are the opposite of ACC in
              their resistance to shear, and in this regard, joints held with these
              cements can be tenacious, but at the same time also have relatively
              little resistance to movement, i.e. motion like a rubber hinge.

              My own long-time preference for a contact cement is Barge Cement- an
              old line contact cement marketed for shoe repairs, but also gaining
              considerable traction by railroad modelers (I have also rescued a
              number of shoes with it!). Its working time or pot life is much longer
              than GOO (it takes about 10 minutes to gain "full contact mode" vs.
              several minutes with GOO). It is thinner and less stringy (I usually
              apply it through a 0.060" hole drilled in the cap, a hole that is
              otherwise plugged with a large pin). Its cured strength is legendary.
              Barge Cement is commonly available at Ace Hardware Stores. The shelf
              life of an opened tube seems to be about 1-1/2 years max in my hands.

              Contact cements are like epoxy, however: fully cured, they can only be
              removed mechanically, with heat helping.

              Common to the use of all cements, however, is the absolute requirement
              that the substrate be dry and clean, absolutely clean. Neither ACC,
              epoxy, nor contact cement will long adhere to unclean, oily, nor
              unstable surfaces (the most common root cause of cemented joint
              failure over the years, IMHO).

              Perhaps more than you wanted to know (:-)

              Denny


              Denny S. Anspach MD
              Sacramento
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14194 From: jim heckard Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
                             Would like to add some information about zinc pest ( also called crazing  in the tin plate world.) that I gleaned from "The Reporting Mark"  newsletter of the HOSC&H-SIG. ( HO Scale Collectors and History - Special Interest Group ).
               
                   First is an article called " Zinc Alloy Casting Deterioration "   by  Walter L. Roberge Jr., director of Engineering at Du-West Metal Products Inc, of Bangor Michigan that appeared in an April  1971 MR clinic.
               
                  " Some zinc alloy castings must be 99.99% pure; and Cadmium,Lead and Tin must be practically nonexistent in the alloy. Maximum allowable amounts : Cadmium .004 %. Lead .005 % and tin .004 %. Other zinc casting alloys have similar maximum tolerances as low as .002 % maximum tin content. Many tool die-casting firms won't even have these metals in the shop because of the effect of intergranular corrosion. Roberge says that these impurities encapsulate the molecules of zinc which in turn destroys the bond of the alloy. "
               
                    A Mr. Pete Browning who was first in O Gauge with Mr. Fred Murdoch had a metallurgical lab look into this "zinc pest" problem.     " Their answer ( unfortunately no copy of the report remains ) was intercrystalline (also called intergranular ) corrosion caused by impurities in the origin zinc. In addition to embrittling the metal the impurities act like rusting steel rods in concrete expanding and thus distorting the casting. There is apparently practically nothing that can be done to stop the process since it is completely internal and self supporting. "
               
                   This story came from an old Lionel employee, and they like American Flyer ( and others ) experienced their share of CRAZING. It seems that the casting room at the old Lionel plant ( Irvington, NJ ) had a wooden floor that was rough and splintery. It was occasionally oiled with a mop to keep dust down.  When the casting started at the beginning of the workday with pure virgin metal all was well and those castings are the ones that survived 60 or more years. But during the lunch break the floors were swept up for loose sprues, bad castings and all the crap on the floor would go back into the melting pots. It was probably these impurities that got into the metal and distressed the castings years later.
               
                    Another note concerning Mantua from Frank Bell Jr. taken from a conversation with Norman Tyler, Chairman of the Board of Mantua. " He related to me that before and after WWII when metal was scarce they would buy old carburetors from junk yards to get ZAMAK to manufacture trains. Some of the impurities in this metal probably caused trouble later but it was spotty . " ( this part amazes me because here you have Mantua using compromised metals but not having major problems.)
               
                   Last a quick note about Nathan Polk / Aristo Craft and GHC /Hotco New One engines made in Japan. One statement deals with their lack of knowledge to cast with these metals and Quality Control was lacking.
               
                    Well my conclusions still kind of the same as to the cause of " Zinc Pest". Not only Cadmium but Lead and Tin, along with other contaminants, can effect how long and how good the castings will be. I can't attest to the quality of any zinc supplied, or by whom. However , if I read this right, there were different formulas mixed by different companies to create Zamac dependant on how strong or costly  they wanted /  needed it. Add to that different contaminates / amounts and it easy to see the varying degrees from simple cracks, to warping, to complete disintegration. 
               
                    Food for thought. PLEASE don't shoot the messenger.
               
                                                                   Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ken
              Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 11:03 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions

               

              PLEASE read between the paragraphs.....

              > Many years ago in the late 60's I was given tubes of an ACC type glue that the Air Force used and never had a problem with it. Again I don't know the chemical make up of it but it sure has held since then.

              (That was Eastman 910 or the Dupont equivilant. Google eastman 910 and reat its original usage. Pretty cool stuff.)
              >
              > Zinc pest / cracking. I'm sure different companies used different formulas of zamac, alloys or what ever they cast in. I have to think that the mixtures could "be cheapened" by using different amounts to produce the casting material they used. Even without any contamination getting into the mix I'm sure this could change the characteristic abilities of the casting material.

              (If it is called Zamac or Zamak it MUST be purchased from New Jersey Zinc. And they make a specific formulation or alloy for you. Now when the original patents ran out ANYONE could make a mix and call it zamac or Mazak in England. NJZ bought Zamac does not crumble. I have some 5lb ingots that are from 1935 and are still perfect now. The problem is where and who did the casting. Sloppy handling causes the crumbling. Cad contamination is it! No question. Its been proven.)
              >
              > Here I would like to comment on the cadmium experiment a member wrote about. This was very interesting. That took a lot of time to get results. I do want to interject that years ago FAMOCO ( Famous Model Co.) cast parts in "Cadmium" and stated so in ads,etc.. Again I have no idea of what exactly was in the mix but I have yet to find any Zinc Pest ( or whatever anyone calls the cracking or rot ) in FAMOCO parts. Even their cast metal pantograph kits.

              (FOMOCO,this has nothing to do with Zamac contamination. Cadinum can be cast too. It makes nice castings. not too strong though.. But now a days its nearly thought of as a hazardous material. Thats why NiCad batteries MUST be recycled properly. Cadinum causes all sorts of neurological issues when handled improperly. Unknown in the 40s and 50s . All my Fomoco models have been painted or Copper plated so I do not touch the bare metal)
              Better to be safe! Ken

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14195 From: 23weldon Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Ken -- Seriously here -- You have given us what is possibly an important contribution to knowledge of zinc metallurgy if it is not already well known among professional metallurgists concerned with zinc alloys.  This may well be a trade secret among the suppliers of zinc ingot and similar products; but who knows?
              The Wikipedia article on "Zinc Pest" makes absolutely no mention of cadmium.
              Perhaps you can find an interested metallurgist who knows how to properly "plug" this information into the general knowledge base of technology rather than have it lost in a corner our own obscure hobby subculture.
              Sounds like a possible subject for a phD dissertation in the field of materials science.
              Ed Weldon
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14196 From: Ken Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              I read the Wikipedia article. I had forgotten about the lead factor. Bob Miller had concentrated so much on Cadinum I forgot. But the main point is purity of the alloy. simply put. If it is contaminated it will fail. I have a 1937 Lafayette Car. This is just a representative photo.
              see:
              http://www.route66rambler.com/show_image.php?id=1436&scalesize=0&nocount=y

              See that grill? One piece Zamac grill that weighs around 45 lbs.
              I found a New Old Stock one in an old Chicago AMC dealer. It is flawless. As are all the door handles knobs etc...Pure and clean castings...

              The thing is that you can dip it in crazy glue and its just a temp fix. The internal damage never stops.
              Ken




              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "23weldon" <23.weldon@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ken -- Seriously here -- You have given us what is possibly an important contribution to knowledge of zinc metallurgy if it is not already well known among professional metallurgists concerned with zinc alloys. This may well be a trade secret among the suppliers of zinc ingot and similar products; but who knows?
              > The Wikipedia article on "Zinc Pest" makes absolutely no mention of cadmium.
              > Perhaps you can find an interested metallurgist who knows how to properly "plug" this information into the general knowledge base of technology rather than have it lost in a corner our own obscure hobby subculture.
              > Sounds like a possible subject for a phD dissertation in the field of materials science.
              > Ed Weldon
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14197 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              On 5/30/2010 10:57 AM, Denny Anspach wrote:
              >
              > Ulrich castings seem almost always to be completely intact all these
              > years later (just one reason why so many Ulrich models are still in
              > high demand by the prototype modeling fraternity).

              I do recall buying an Ulrich hopper from a dealer at a swap meet in
              a closed box that, once I got it home and opened, I found significant
              rot resulting in about a half inch circle of paint and metal removed
              from one of the side panels. Luckily he exchanged it when I drove back
              to the meet and showed it to him.
              ATM I cannot recall if any of the other Ulrich pieces I have on hand
              are showing any deterioration. I think there may be some very small bits
              here or there. Usually I try to avoid buying anything sight unseen. I
              like to be able to inspect the condition of the metal as well as the
              painting.

              --

              Rick Jones
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14198 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              I would not doubt the use of lead alloys instead of zamac being used by M.
              Dale Newton/Red Ball as an extreme possiblity for use in hs parts, since
              realizing he was a printer. In general, Red Ball castings are on the "soft"
              side as opposed to harder zamac castings. Similar lead alloys may well have
              been used by Albert Mercer. K. Lynwood Stauffer and Robert Faust (Penn Line)
              and also by Lew English who continued their line, as many of these castings
              are not as "hard" as zamac, although not as soft as Red Ball castings.

              Type-metal alloys of lead were poured in various quanties of companion
              metals, depending upon their use, and determining their hardness, durability and
              detailing/molding ability. That type-metal used in casting foundry type
              consists of 18% tin, 28% antimony and 54% lead, while the type-metal used for
              casting slugs of cast type in Ludlow and Linotype machines consists of only
              3% tin, 11% antimony and 86% lead. The tin makes it durable with the
              antimony hardens it. There were three other grades for different applications in
              printing, but the foundry type metal would have been best for modeling
              purposes. Occasionally, copper was sometimes added to create type being used for
              long runs of printing. I've used this myself at times, for uniting
              (unifying) broken frames with excellent results when casting them in clay molds
              (I'm a retired printer).

              Zamac (or, "Zamak") for use in the model railroad industry consists
              primarily of zinc with a mixture of from 3.9% to 4.5% aluminum, 0.02% to 0.05%
              copper (1% to 3% copper for costume jewelry) and up to 0.06% magnesium. As Ken
              points out, Zamak was originally produced by New Jersey Zinc (starting in
              1929), and it was offered in varying grades -- ZA2, ZA3, ZA5, ZA7 and ZA8,
              etc. Of these, there are varying mixes of these grades, at different price
              ranges. The ZA5 is the alloy mixture used mostly for model railroading
              manufacturing; very similar to the ZA3 that was first used for this application.
              It consists of from 3.9% to 4.5% aluminum, from 0.02% to 0.05% copper and up
              to 0.06% magnesium added to the main metal -- zinc. Other grades have
              increasingly higher amounts, with ZA2 having 3.0 % copper increasing it's
              strength by 20 X, and ZA8 having 8% aluminum -- but both at a much increased cost.

              As zinc is mined in its natural state, it can contain the very impurities
              we have been talking about. Zamak only needs to contain 0.008% lead and
              0.006% cadmium to promote "zincpest." Raw zinc may contain as much as 0.05%
              lead and 0.02% cadmium. When compared to the previous numbers and to the
              similar numbers Jim supplied, we can see how Zamak could have been a problem in
              model railroad parts castings if the manufacturer chose to go the "economy
              route," even before contaminating it from floor sweepings. The occasional tin
              foil (used for sealing cigarette packs) finding their way into the melting
              pots didn't help matters though, as they used real tin back then for
              wrappers. As it was cheap, tin foil was today's aluminum foil. The zinc
              eventually used by NJ Zinc in their ZA3 (recommended for model castings, and used by
              the more reputable manufacturers) was 99.993% pure and free of contaminents,
              which allowed for the best quality castings free of future zincpest. It
              seems, that while this purity of zinc is a necessity for zincpest-free Zamak,
              it's also the addition of the magnesium which is especially needed in
              keeping the Zamak zincpest-free. Incidentally, "Zamak" is an acronym for: Z=zink,
              A=Aluminum, MA=Magnesium and K=Kupfer (Copper).

              New Jersey Zinc's mines in Franklin, NJ had produced most of the zinc ore
              for commercial applications, even up through the early 1920's, but it was
              found that their nearby Sterling Hill Mine in Ogdensburg, NJ (only a couple of
              miles south) produced the purer 99.99% zinc ore necessary for the grade of
              Zamak for model railroad castings -- if the manufacturer agreed on buying
              this grade. Both sources were shipped via the Lehigh & Hudson River Railway to
              Pennsylvania, for delivery by the CNJ's Pennsylvania division to NJ Zinc's
              refinery in Palmerton, PA, although that ore coming from Ogdensburg first
              had to be shipped to Franklin via the NYS&W, then on the L&H. BTW, I have all
              the operations of this documented (35 years ago) in photographs and have
              supplied color slides to Richard Hauck (pres.) for his use in his Sterling
              Hill Newsletter magazine -- the mine now being a museum after closing
              operations at least 20 years ago or more. The L&HR is a particular northeast
              favorite of mine which I spent many days (over many years) photographing.

              There have been other alloys used for model castings, although not
              extensively used in model railroading. One of these was white metal (not to be
              confused with zamac, even though some people use the name interchangeably); its
              a mixture of 91.5% to 92.5% tin, 2.9% to 3.1% antimony, 1.4% to 1.6& cadmium
              and 3.3% to 3.7% lead. The term, "pot metal" is sometimes also confused
              with white metal, but can consist of any of the metals mentioned above in no
              particular proportions, far different from white metal. They were both used
              for casting toy automobiles. Ray F.W.

              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14199 From: rcjge Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              Hey Gents:

              I recently aaquired some Ambroid kits and a couple weeks ago an Athearn "Canadian National Box A111" In a red/buff box with HO scale Equipment by Athearn on the front and a pic on the left side of a whack of rolling stock. Inside is an Athearn kit with vastly more pieces than what I remember in my first incarnation as a model RR-er in the 70's. Base on HoSeeker it appears to hail from the early 50's?

              Anyway, I have been looking at Red Ball cars and Silver streak cars and I can't find any history. There are a lot of unique freight cars there and it's not un-affordable to build one a month, maybe even two. I know some of you guys collect "paper-sided" cars and I wondered if you could open the door a little for me. I have some Model Railroader's from the 50's that have some info but I'd like to know if the cars I mentioned above can be built into fairly accurate models. This old Athearn I got sure does seem to have potential. There are also resin kits out there but the vintage stuff is very appealing to me...

              Thanks for listening,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14200 From: Ken Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Again, PLEASE read between the paragraphs...

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
              >
              > Jim, Ken: Could you please state when NJ Zinc's patents ran out. I notice
              > your 5 Lb. ingots of NJ Zinc's zamac are still in good shape. If this were
              > the only source of zamac at the time, at least pre-War, then are we to
              > assume that a reliable manufacturer such as Varney had sometimes mishandled this
              > compound when casting it?

              ( I'm unsure when the patents ran out. You might call them.)

              >
              > Adding to Jim's noteable/consistent failures of New One products (but not
              > to extensively list them all), I'd like to draw attention to the absolutely
              > hugh failure rate of John English tenders. Keeping in mind that you hardly
              > ever see a John English boiler (or many other locomotive parts) affected by
              > zamac rot -- yet the tenders, often even including their trucks, sold with
              > these same engines are notorious for having rot. Just observing what appears
              > to be a vast difference in the quality of metals going into each of these
              > sections by the way they've held up over the years, would seem to indicate
              > they were extremely likely to have been cast by different manufacturers. I
              > mention this as, even though many modelers may never have noticed a difference
              > in zamac hardness, just the fact that some zamac (by AristoCraft, for
              > instance) can be more "brittle," other zamac (by Roundhouse/MDC, for instance) can
              > actually be bent back in shape with care after it has warped -- and I'm
              > talking about good sound zamac here, not "rotted" metal. Perhaps John English
              > farmed out his tender manufacturing to a casting outfit that wasn't as
              > careful as they should have been, as they're certainly not of the same quality as
              > his engines..


              ( We've all heard the term "POT METAL"? Well Zamac is pot metal but to a very specific formula. Casters used what they had. It looked good but was it expected to last and be collected 50-70 years later?
              Not likely. Many Mfgrs farmed production out. Hobbytown uses a company in N Jersey to do his castings. The tooling for just one engine weighs at least a ton. The die for Millers S Scale Frame weighs in at 550lb. Its in my garage. These casters warehouse the dies till needed. A good caster casts pure.)
              >
              > One last thing here that I'd like to point out is that many different
              > locomotive manufacturers must have used different zamac formulas (after the
              > patent was expired), as it's obvious that the hardness of the metal varies; some
              > manufacturers' castings are softer (or harder) than others, leading me to
              > believe there were varying amounts of lead used -- but the formulas used are
              > consistent to each manufacturer as each ones' products don't vary within
              > their own runs -- but only between their's and another's. Might it be possible
              > too, that even though NJ Zinc was the only producer of zamac a manufacturer
              > could buy from while the patent was still in effect, that once the metal was
              > bought, perhaps some manufacturers added more lead or copper to their
              > molten zamac before they poured it for various reasons like making it "stronger"
              > or allowing it to pick up more "detail," or just to stretch the $.

              Ray F.W.
              > </HTML>

              (NO LEAD IS IN ZAMAC!! Google it please. You might even find a paper I wrote about Zamac in 1976 when I was in Purdue.)
              Ken
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14201 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              On 5/30/2010 3:39 PM, erieberk@... wrote:
              > I would not doubt the use of lead alloys instead of zamac being used by M.
              > Dale Newton/Red Ball as an extreme possiblity for use in hs parts, since
              > realizing he was a printer. In general, Red Ball castings are on the "soft"
              > side as opposed to harder zamac castings. Similar lead alloys may well have
              > been used by Albert Mercer. K. Lynwood Stauffer and Robert Faust (Penn Line)
              > and also by Lew English who continued their line, as many of these castings
              > are not as "hard" as zamac, although not as soft as Red Ball castings.

              What did Central Valley use for their trucks? I don't recall that
              I've ever seen one that was crumbling. I believe that I have seen
              Athearn and Silver Streak trucks that appeared to be deteriorating.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Teach your kids the value of money - borrow from them.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14202 From: docdenny34 Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Rick Jones writes-
              >
              > What did Central Valley use for their trucks? I don't recall that
              > I've ever seen one that was crumbling. I believe that I have seen
              > Athearn and Silver Streak trucks that appeared to be deteriorating.
              >

              Central Valley trucks were not immune to rot (I do have a few), but in actual fact rotted CV castings were and are pretty rare.

              Athearn castings were pretty rot prone: Silver Streak even worse; and Kadee almost not at all.

              Ken's description of the data gleaned from aged contaminated zamac samples is not only very interesting, it is also a very persuasive incremental contribution to our understanding of this insidious and destructive process. Hard data always trumps soft speculation.

              That zincpest is still an industrial problem is a very recent experience with a "new" zamac crank case oil pump body in a heavy duty high-end Wisconsin industrial railroad motorcar engine. The previous pump (c. 1965) had expanded, froze up, and failed- ruining the cam shaft in the process. This new zamac pump body -shiny in its OEM box-only lasted 8 years of intermittent use before it too expanded and failed, ruining a second cam shaft by seizing the push rod (although again narrowly avoiding ruining the engine).

              Caveat Emptor, as many rush to purchase new cast metal locomotives from the far east.

              Denny

              Denny
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14203 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Super Glue Re: Varney Consolidation Questions
              Ken, I wouldn't really call Zamac "Pot Metal" in any sense of the term for
              the very reason that you and I both stated -- Pot Metal used anything that
              was available, in any amounts of the incorporated metals. "Zamac" (or,
              Zamak) was developed by NJ Zinc to certain formulas, using only certain
              metals.-- which, even as you said, was patented. I may just contact them to find
              out when that patent expired though; thanks for the suggestion.

              As for your enlightenment on Zamac not containing lead, this was included
              in my previous post as a possibility of a manufacturer to add this metal to
              the better grade of Zamac they may have bought, in attempts to stretch the
              quantity of their molten metal to increase profits -- which may have been just
              another reason why some of these alloys failed. If you had read further,
              in my last post, you would have seen my spelling the quantities and amounts
              of quality ZA3 Zamac out specifically -- as a "formula" -- 3.9% - 4.5%
              Aluminum, 0.02% - 0.05% Copper and up to 0.06% Magnesium, added to 99.993% pure
              Zinc -- there are four (4) metals in this alloy. Other grades of Zamac have
              varying amounts of these smaller metal ingredients, but NONE have Lead as it
              came from the suppliers, NJ Zinc being the originator. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14204 From: John H Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Denny,

              Yeah, you have a very good thought there about the new diecast products coming from China. They do not have a very good track record regards following specifications. I mean if they can't keep the lead out of paint for baby furniture how serious do you think they will be on the metal for "toy" trains?

              This has been a pretty interesting discussion and I do understand that Zamac, white metal and pot metal are not the same but I also think over the years the names were often used interchangeably. Not correct I agree but can't change what was written 25t years ago--- unless you live in an Orwellian world.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "docdenny34" <danspach@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Rick Jones writes-
              > >
              > > What did Central Valley use for their trucks? I don't recall that
              > > I've ever seen one that was crumbling. I believe that I have seen
              > > Athearn and Silver Streak trucks that appeared to be deteriorating.
              > >
              >
              > Central Valley trucks were not immune to rot (I do have a few), but in actual fact rotted CV castings were and are pretty rare.
              >
              > Athearn castings were pretty rot prone: Silver Streak even worse; and Kadee almost not at all.
              >
              > Ken's description of the data gleaned from aged contaminated zamac samples is not only very interesting, it is also a very persuasive incremental contribution to our understanding of this insidious and destructive process. Hard data always trumps soft speculation.
              >
              > That zincpest is still an industrial problem is a very recent experience with a "new" zamac crank case oil pump body in a heavy duty high-end Wisconsin industrial railroad motorcar engine. The previous pump (c. 1965) had expanded, froze up, and failed- ruining the cam shaft in the process. This new zamac pump body -shiny in its OEM box-only lasted 8 years of intermittent use before it too expanded and failed, ruining a second cam shaft by seizing the push rod (although again narrowly avoiding ruining the engine).
              >
              > Caveat Emptor, as many rush to purchase new cast metal locomotives from the far east.
              >
              > Denny
              >
              > Denny
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14205 From: Rick Jones Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              On 5/30/2010 9:31 PM, docdenny34 wrote:
              >
              > Caveat Emptor, as many rush to purchase new cast metal locomotives
              > from the far east.

              That, perhaps, is a premonition of things yet to come. With the
              revelations of lead paint on toys, toxic substances in pet food, and
              other quality control failures that have come to light in recent years,
              the cast metal trains that are being made over there now are quite
              probably disasters waiting to happen.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Bad browser! No cookies!
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14206 From: hooligan Date: 5/30/2010
              Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Rick , While I wondered why Central Valley's castings didn't deteriorate I did wind up with a pair that crumbled to dust . Never say never ? Took many years and many pairs of trucks before it happened . More trouble because of foam in their enclosure attacking the product as it deteriorated . Just my experience . HH

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
              >
              > On 5/30/2010 3:39 PM, erieberk@... wrote:
              > > I would not doubt the use of lead alloys instead of zamac being used by M.
              > > Dale Newton/Red Ball as an extreme possiblity for use in hs parts, since
              > > realizing he was a printer. In general, Red Ball castings are on the "soft"
              > > side as opposed to harder zamac castings. Similar lead alloys may well have
              > > been used by Albert Mercer. K. Lynwood Stauffer and Robert Faust (Penn Line)
              > > and also by Lew English who continued their line, as many of these castings
              > > are not as "hard" as zamac, although not as soft as Red Ball castings.
              >
              > What did Central Valley use for their trucks? I don't recall that
              > I've ever seen one that was crumbling. I believe that I have seen
              > Athearn and Silver Streak trucks that appeared to be deteriorating.
              >
              > --
              >
              > Rick Jones
              >
              > Teach your kids the value of money - borrow from them.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14207 From: Gary Woodard Date: 5/31/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Hi Rick,
               
              From what I know from one friend of mine, seems some of the P2k E units were at one time having some issues with zink rot, as he has several of his P2k E units with cast frames that are crumbling before his very eyes!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, May 31, 2010 12:40:18 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles

               

              On 5/30/2010 9:31 PM, docdenny34 wrote:
              >
              > Caveat Emptor, as many rush to purchase new cast metal locomotives
              > from the far east.

              That, perhaps, is a premonition of things yet to come. With the
              revelations of lead paint on toys, toxic substances in pet food, and
              other quality control failures that have come to light in recent years,
              the cast metal trains that are being made over there now are quite
              probably disasters waiting to happen.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Bad browser! No cookies!


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14208 From: Mike Sloane Date: 5/31/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Even high end Japanese audio equipment wasn't immune from "rot". I have
              two Akai tape decks, different models but the same "pot metal" actuating
              cam. On one, the cam crumbled to pieces, yet the other one is in fine
              shape.
              <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/old-electronics-and/akaim9cam.html>.
              They are both from the late '60s, but the good one is about a year newer
              than the one in the image and shows no sign of degredation.

              Mike

              On 5/30/2010 10:31 PM, docdenny34 wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Rick Jones writes-
              > >
              > > What did Central Valley use for their trucks? I don't recall that
              > > I've ever seen one that was crumbling. I believe that I have seen
              > > Athearn and Silver Streak trucks that appeared to be deteriorating.
              > >
              >
              > Central Valley trucks were not immune to rot (I do have a few), but in
              > actual fact rotted CV castings were and are pretty rare.
              >
              > Athearn castings were pretty rot prone: Silver Streak even worse; and
              > Kadee almost not at all.
              >
              > Ken's description of the data gleaned from aged contaminated zamac
              > samples is not only very interesting, it is also a very persuasive
              > incremental contribution to our understanding of this insidious and
              > destructive process. Hard data always trumps soft speculation.
              >
              > That zincpest is still an industrial problem is a very recent experience
              > with a "new" zamac crank case oil pump body in a heavy duty high-end
              > Wisconsin industrial railroad motorcar engine. The previous pump (c.
              > 1965) had expanded, froze up, and failed- ruining the cam shaft in the
              > process. This new zamac pump body -shiny in its OEM box-only lasted 8
              > years of intermittent use before it too expanded and failed, ruining a
              > second cam shaft by seizing the push rod (although again narrowly
              > avoiding ruining the engine).
              >
              > Caveat Emptor, as many rush to purchase new cast metal locomotives from
              > the far east.
              >
              > Denny
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14209 From: bob d Date: 5/31/2010
              Subject: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              I have but one engine suffering from the "rot". Could the contamination be from the mold release rather from the molten metal?

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              >
              > Even high end Japanese audio equipment wasn't immune from "rot". I have
              > two Akai tape decks, different models but the same "pot metal" actuating
              > cam. On one, the cam crumbled to pieces, yet the other one is in fine
              > shape.
              > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/old-electronics-and/akaim9cam.html>.
              > They are both from the late '60s, but the good one is about a year newer
              > than the one in the image and shows no sign of degredation.
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 5/30/2010 10:31 PM, docdenny34 wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Rick Jones writes-
              > > >
              > > > What did Central Valley use for their trucks? I don't recall that
              > > > I've ever seen one that was crumbling. I believe that I have seen
              > > > Athearn and Silver Streak trucks that appeared to be deteriorating.
              > > >
              > >
              > > Central Valley trucks were not immune to rot (I do have a few), but in
              > > actual fact rotted CV castings were and are pretty rare.
              > >
              > > Athearn castings were pretty rot prone: Silver Streak even worse; and
              > > Kadee almost not at all.
              > >
              > > Ken's description of the data gleaned from aged contaminated zamac
              > > samples is not only very interesting, it is also a very persuasive
              > > incremental contribution to our understanding of this insidious and
              > > destructive process. Hard data always trumps soft speculation.
              > >
              > > That zincpest is still an industrial problem is a very recent experience
              > > with a "new" zamac crank case oil pump body in a heavy duty high-end
              > > Wisconsin industrial railroad motorcar engine. The previous pump (c.
              > > 1965) had expanded, froze up, and failed- ruining the cam shaft in the
              > > process. This new zamac pump body -shiny in its OEM box-only lasted 8
              > > years of intermittent use before it too expanded and failed, ruining a
              > > second cam shaft by seizing the push rod (although again narrowly
              > > avoiding ruining the engine).
              > >
              > > Caveat Emptor, as many rush to purchase new cast metal locomotives from
              > > the far east.
              > >
              > > Denny
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14210 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 5/31/2010
              Subject: Metal Alloy Discussion
              Red Ball castings have historically been made using a lead-tin-antimony alloy. Not Zamac. Impurities, if any, were skimmed in the casting machine and the heat levels did not promote their incorporation into the metal. If not overheated in casting, the parts were not particularly brittle but very high heat (post production) may cause distortion. Howell Day did pick up some parts by other makers from time to time, notably a cast boxcar door by Silver Streak. Any such parts will not have the characteristic cut off ridge on the backside of the casting (round sprues on certain flat car sides, snow plow and crane parts). In the 1980s we did have some parts "spin cast" in a similar alloy due to inherent limitations in production rate of their tooling. These will not have the high lustre typical of the parts die cast in metal molds, but will have a remnant of the ridge (or of round sprues on certain flat car sides). Unauthorized [pirate] copies typically
              attempted to remove traces of the ridge in their mold making. Their alloys would typically be much higher in lead than tin content --much cheaper and less "crisp detail-friendly".

              Merle Rice
              Model RR Warehouse
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14211 From: The Danish Duke Date: 5/31/2010
              Subject: Needing Athearn metal crane boom
              I bought an Athearn metal 2000 ton crane and discovered the metal boom is broken. Does anyone know where I can find another metal boom or has one in their scarp box?
              Earl Poulsen
              Vancouver, WA
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14212 From: ron_tallyho Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Rubber bands
              Has anyone ever found a good source for rubber bands for the Athearn Hi-Fi drives. I recently rebanded several engines with new Athearn rubber bands and put them away. When I got them out three months later they had all turned to snot. I remember a company called Perfect that made train and model parts and they had bands made from neoprene. Ron Plyler
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14213 From: Mike Sloane Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              The three most common sources mentioned recently are 1. Horizon Hobbies
              (current owner of Athearn), 2. your friendly orthodontist, and 3. the
              "dollar" stores, who offer bags of bands for securing little girls'
              hair. If the Athearn OEM bands aren't holding up, maybe the other
              sources will work better. The biggest enemy of "Hi-F" (not "Hi-Fi")
              drive bands is oil - make sure that you clean the drives thoroughly and
              not allow oil to get on the bands.

              Let us know how you make out.

              Mike

              On 6/1/2010 10:42 AM, ron_tallyho wrote:
              >
              >
              > Has anyone ever found a good source for rubber bands for the Athearn
              > Hi-Fi drives. I recently rebanded several engines with new Athearn
              > rubber bands and put them away. When I got them out three months later
              > they had all turned to snot. I remember a company called Perfect that
              > made train and model parts and they had bands made from neoprene. Ron Plyler
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14214 From: Ken Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@...> wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone ever found a good source for rubber bands for the Athearn Hi-Fi drives. I recently rebanded several engines with new Athearn rubber bands and put them away. When I got them out three months later they had all turned to snot. I remember a company called Perfect that made train and model parts and they had bands made from neoprene. Ron Plyler


              In short no one has these anymore. I looked at a couple of packages of my PERFECT drive belts and they stretched out of shape. No elasticity.
              But a source is out there! McMaster Carr has nearly any size O ring you could need in any cross section size too. The only problem is they want to crawl over the ends of the drive shaft. The fix? Cut a piece of K&S brass tube about 1/8 of an inch long and use ZAMAC glue to fix it on. (CA glue)
              Ken
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14215 From: Denny Anspach Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Rubber bands
              Use O rings. Simple, and easy to find and purchase.

              Denny

              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Sacramento
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14216 From: Nelson B Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              Here is my Budd RDC with clear Goody hair bands from WalMart. I installed them almost a year ago, and they are still as flexible as they were when new.

              http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Athearn/DSCF1688-1024x625.jpg

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              >
              > The three most common sources mentioned recently are 1. Horizon Hobbies
              > (current owner of Athearn), 2. your friendly orthodontist, and 3. the
              > "dollar" stores, who offer bags of bands for securing little girls'
              > hair. If the Athearn OEM bands aren't holding up, maybe the other
              > sources will work better. The biggest enemy of "Hi-F" (not "Hi-Fi")
              > drive bands is oil - make sure that you clean the drives thoroughly and
              > not allow oil to get on the bands.
              >
              > Let us know how you make out.
              >
              > Mike
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14217 From: bluenosedviking Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              That looks good - gotta hand it to WalMart. What motor are you using?"



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson B" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
              >
              > Here is my Budd RDC with clear Goody hair bands from WalMart. I installed them almost a year ago, and they are still as flexible as they were when new.
              >
              > http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Athearn/DSCF1688-1024x625.jpg
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The three most common sources mentioned recently are 1. Horizon Hobbies
              > > (current owner of Athearn), 2. your friendly orthodontist, and 3. the
              > > "dollar" stores, who offer bags of bands for securing little girls'
              > > hair. If the Athearn OEM bands aren't holding up, maybe the other
              > > sources will work better. The biggest enemy of "Hi-F" (not "Hi-Fi")
              > > drive bands is oil - make sure that you clean the drives thoroughly and
              > > not allow oil to get on the bands.
              > >
              > > Let us know how you make out.
              > >
              > > Mike
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14218 From: bob d Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              There is a national chain store called "Dollar Tree". You can buy a lifetime supply of rubber bands for $1. That's right, $1!! While WalMart, et all, have good prices, hard to beat Dollar Tree. Ours is next to a Taco Bell and an ice cream parlor(Baskin-Robbins). I go to Dollar Tree and have money left for an ice cream cone!!!! Or a beef burrito supreme!!!! Can I get an AMEN for tacos and ice cream?

              And, no, I'm not pregnant!!!

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@...> wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone ever found a good source for rubber bands for the Athearn Hi-Fi drives. I recently rebanded several engines with new Athearn rubber bands and put them away. When I got them out three months later they had all turned to snot. I remember a company called Perfect that made train and model parts and they had bands made from neoprene. Ron Plyler
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14219 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              I'll have to look for some hair bands when I go to pick the wife up from work later, as she works at Wal-Mart!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: bluenosedviking <bluenosedviking@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 2:21:20 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands

               

              That looks good - gotta hand it to WalMart. What motor are you using?"

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson B" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
              >
              > Here is my Budd RDC with clear Goody hair bands from WalMart. I installed them almost a year ago, and they are still as flexible as they were when new.
              >
              > http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/Athearn/DSCF1688-1024x625.jpg
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The three most common sources mentioned recently are 1. Horizon Hobbies
              > > (current owner of Athearn), 2. your friendly orthodontist, and 3. the
              > > "dollar" stores, who offer bags of bands for securing little girls'
              > > hair. If the Athearn OEM bands aren't holding up, maybe the other
              > > sources will work better. The biggest enemy of "Hi-F" (not "Hi-Fi")
              > > drive bands is oil - make sure that you clean the drives thoroughly and
              > > not allow oil to get on the bands.
              > >
              > > Let us know how you make out.
              > >
              > > Mike
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14220 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              Hi Bob,
               
              I sure wish I had gone to Taco Bell tonight, instead of Sonic, boy am I feeling that Supersonic Breakfast Burrito! Yes, Mint Chocolate Chip, double dip please, then I'll have some tacos, and then onward to the rubberbands!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 3:54:53 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands

               

              There is a national chain store called "Dollar Tree". You can buy a lifetime supply of rubber bands for $1. That's right, $1!! While WalMart, et all, have good prices, hard to beat Dollar Tree. Ours is next to a Taco Bell and an ice cream parlor(Baskin-Robbins). I go to Dollar Tree and have money left for an ice cream cone!!!! Or a beef burrito supreme!!!! Can I get an AMEN for tacos and ice cream?

              And, no, I'm not pregnant!!!

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@...> wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone ever found a good source for rubber bands for the Athearn Hi-Fi drives. I recently rebanded several engines with new Athearn rubber bands and put them away. When I got them out three months later they had all turned to snot. I remember a company called Perfect that made train and model parts and they had bands made from neoprene. Ron Plyler
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14221 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Off topic post (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands)
              Off topic but I can get away with it 'cause I'm the moderator <GD&R>.

              Our Dollar Tree is next door to Robert's custard stand. Real Wisconsin
              style frozen custard makes Baskin Robbins taste like the $ 4.00 a gallon
              discount stuff from Piggly Wiggly.. It's the stuff people like Haagen-Daz
              and Ben & Jerry's are trying to imitate.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Gary Woodard" <betsy662@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 4:59 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands


              Hi Bob,

              I sure wish I had gone to Taco Bell tonight, instead of Sonic, boy am I
              feeling that Supersonic Breakfast Burrito! Yes, Mint Chocolate Chip, double
              dip please, then I'll have some tacos, and then onward to the rubberbands!

              Gary W


              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to
              answer life's two most important questions!




              ________________________________
              From: bob d <fishntrains@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 3:54:53 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands


              There is a national chain store called "Dollar Tree". You can buy a lifetime
              supply of rubber bands for $1. That's right, $1!! While WalMart, et all,
              have good prices, hard to beat Dollar Tree. Ours is next to a Taco Bell and
              an ice cream parlor(Baskin-Robbins). I go to Dollar Tree and have money left
              for an ice cream cone!!!! Or a beef burrito supreme!!!! Can I get an AMEN
              for tacos and ice cream?

              And, no, I'm not pregnant!!!

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@...> wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone ever found a good source for rubber bands for the Athearn Hi-Fi
              > drives. I recently rebanded several engines with new Athearn rubber bands
              > and put them away. When I got them out three months later they had all
              > turned to snot. I remember a company called Perfect that made train and
              > model parts and they had bands made from neoprene. Ron Plyler
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14222 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Dollar Tree Rubber bands
              I took Don's advice and went to dollar tree.  I bought 2 lifetime supplies of rubber bands, and sent one to a buddy of mine in VA.  They work perfectly. Definately the correct length.  They seem like they will be more durable. 
               
              Paul

              --- On Tue, 6/1/10, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:

              From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 4:59 PM

               
              Hi Bob,
               
              I sure wish I had gone to Taco Bell tonight, instead of Sonic, boy am I feeling that Supersonic Breakfast Burrito! Yes, Mint Chocolate Chip, double dip please, then I'll have some tacos, and then onward to the rubberbands!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: bob d <fishntrains@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 3:54:53 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands

               
              There is a national chain store called "Dollar Tree". You can buy a lifetime supply of rubber bands for $1. That's right, $1!! While WalMart, et all, have good prices, hard to beat Dollar Tree. Ours is next to a Taco Bell and an ice cream parlor(Baskin- Robbins). I go to Dollar Tree and have money left for an ice cream cone!!!! Or a beef burrito supreme!!!! Can I get an AMEN for tacos and ice cream?

              And, no, I'm not pregnant!!!

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone ever found a good source for rubber bands for the Athearn Hi-Fi drives. I recently rebanded several engines with new Athearn rubber bands and put them away. When I got them out three months later they had all turned to snot. I remember a company called Perfect that made train and model parts and they had bands made from neoprene. Ron Plyler
              >



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14223 From: rcjge Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              No info about these brands, WOW! I'm kinda shocked. Thought there would be some insights...

              Oh well,
              Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > I recently aaquired some Ambroid kits and a couple weeks ago an Athearn "Canadian National Box A111" In a red/buff box with HO scale
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14224 From: bob d Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Dollar Tree Rubber bands
              Paul, I know that you weren't led astray. I have quite a group of those old "amp hogs", about 20 or so. And I found that those rubber bands are the cheapest you can find anywhere. Best of all, they work.

              One suggestion I will give, clean the shafts with alcohol. That removes anything that could cause the bands to break down and also leads to better grip.

              The $4 question is, did you stop for an ice cream?

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Pawel Artmeijer <anaidni62@...> wrote:
              >
              > I took Don's advice and went to dollar tree.  I bought 2 lifetime supplies of rubber bands, and sent one to a buddy of mine in VA.  They work perfectly. Definately the correct length.  They seem like they will be more durable. 
              >  
              > Paul
              >
              > --- On Tue, 6/1/10, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 4:59 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Bob,
              >  
              > I sure wish I had gone to Taco Bell tonight, instead of Sonic, boy am I feeling that Supersonic Breakfast Burrito! Yes, Mint Chocolate Chip, double dip please, then I'll have some tacos, and then onward to the rubberbands!
              >  
              > Gary W
              >  
              >
              >  Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: bob d <fishntrains@ yahoo.com>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              > Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 3:54:53 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands
              >
              >  
              >
              > There is a national chain store called "Dollar Tree". You can buy a lifetime supply of rubber bands for $1. That's right, $1!! While WalMart, et all, have good prices, hard to beat Dollar Tree. Ours is next to a Taco Bell and an ice cream parlor(Baskin- Robbins). I go to Dollar Tree and have money left for an ice cream cone!!!! Or a beef burrito supreme!!!! Can I get an AMEN for tacos and ice cream?
              >
              > And, no, I'm not pregnant!!!
              >
              > Bob
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@ ...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Has anyone ever found a good source for rubber bands for the Athearn Hi-Fi drives. I recently rebanded several engines with new Athearn rubber bands and put them away. When I got them out three months later they had all turned to snot. I remember a company called Perfect that made train and model parts and they had bands made from neoprene. Ron Plyler
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14225 From: Larry Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Caterpillar To pay $820 Million for EMD
              Reminded me that back in the late 1970's when I still worked for Cat (the Tractor Company who was a great employer, NOT the Inc. that they became in the late 1980's) there was interest in Caterpillar diversifying into diesel locomotives and I mocked up just for fun an HO scale set of articulated motive power that I denoted as the MD900 from some Athern SD-45's. One is powered, one is dummy and the track had to be extremely level with 24" minimum radius curves. It did run on one layout in the late 1970's and has been stored away for almost forty years.
               
              I will post photos in the photo section for your amusement.
               
              Larry Miller III

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14226 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Dollar Tree Rubber bands
              I went to Wal-Mart, and got the Goody ones, not the clear ones, because our closest Wallyworld doesn't have the clear ones, but I got the colored ones, they look like all of them are just about the right length.....:o)
               
              Gary W

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: Pawel Artmeijer <anaidni62@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 9:10:16 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Dollar Tree Rubber bands

               

              I took Don's advice and went to dollar tree.  I bought 2 lifetime supplies of rubber bands, and sent one to a buddy of mine in VA.  They work perfectly. Definately the correct length.  They seem like they will be more durable. 
               
              Paul

              --- On Tue, 6/1/10, Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com> wrote:

              From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@yahoo. com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 4:59 PM

               
              Hi Bob,
               
              I sure wish I had gone to Taco Bell tonight, instead of Sonic, boy am I feeling that Supersonic Breakfast Burrito! Yes, Mint Chocolate Chip, double dip please, then I'll have some tacos, and then onward to the rubberbands!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: bob d <fishntrains@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 3:54:53 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands

               
              There is a national chain store called "Dollar Tree". You can buy a lifetime supply of rubber bands for $1. That's right, $1!! While WalMart, et all, have good prices, hard to beat Dollar Tree. Ours is next to a Taco Bell and an ice cream parlor(Baskin- Robbins). I go to Dollar Tree and have money left for an ice cream cone!!!! Or a beef burrito supreme!!!! Can I get an AMEN for tacos and ice cream?

              And, no, I'm not pregnant!!!

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone ever found a good source for rubber bands for the Athearn Hi-Fi drives. I recently rebanded several engines with new Athearn rubber bands and put them away. When I got them out three months later they had all turned to snot. I remember a company called Perfect that made train and model parts and they had bands made from neoprene. Ron Plyler
              >




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14227 From: bob d Date: 6/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              Gareth, I have QUITE A FEW Ambroid and even more Red Ball and Silver Streak cars from my younger, and earlier days in the hobby. Not much on being a historian though.

              Good kits for the day, though I have upgraded many to conform to my layout and more modern guidelines(Kadees, atlas wheel sets, etc)

              Bob



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > I recently aaquired some Ambroid kits and a couple weeks ago an Athearn "Canadian National Box A111" In a red/buff box with HO scale Equipment by Athearn on the front and a pic on the left side of a whack of rolling stock. Inside is an Athearn kit with vastly more pieces than what I remember in my first incarnation as a model RR-er in the 70's. Base on HoSeeker it appears to hail from the early 50's?
              >
              > Anyway, I have been looking at Red Ball cars and Silver streak cars and I can't find any history. There are a lot of unique freight cars there and it's not un-affordable to build one a month, maybe even two. I know some of you guys collect "paper-sided" cars and I wondered if you could open the door a little for me. I have some Model Railroader's from the 50's that have some info but I'd like to know if the cars I mentioned above can be built into fairly accurate models. This old Athearn I got sure does seem to have potential. There are also resin kits out there but the vintage stuff is very appealing to me...
              >
              > Thanks for listening,
              > Gareth
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14228 From: Robert Karnisky Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              I don't know if it's the same company, but there's a Red Ball "founded in 1939 by M. Dale Newton" mentioned at:
               
               
              Scroll down almost to the bottom. The site gives quite a bit of history. It sounds like they're now a part of Model Railroad Warehouse. I hope this helps!
               
              - Rob Karnisky


              --- On Tue, 6/1/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

              From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 9:18 PM

              No info about these brands, WOW! I'm kinda shocked. Thought there would be some insights...

              Oh well,
              Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > I recently aaquired  some Ambroid kits and a couple weeks ago an Athearn "Canadian National Box A111" In a red/buff box with HO scale



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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14229 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              Gareth, There are loads of info on both Red Ball and Silver Streak cars,
              both in this Groups archives and in the files. I submitted (as posts, now in
              the archives) all the pertinent information about these two manufacturer's
              kits, including their descriptions, catalog numbers and car side numbers
              which Chuck Higdon converted into spread sheets (now in the files). I may
              have even supplied some history on these two manufacturers as I've done on
              others, although I don't quite remember as it's been a while. Check these
              sources out and let me know if there's any other info about them that you're
              looking for. I think I covered them fairly comprehensively though.

              On your Athearn metal A-111 CN, Athearn started manufacturing these cars in
              1948 and continued to do so through 1960. Your box description as being
              "red/buff" is a bit confusing at first as there was never a box produced as
              such -- although the "whack of rolling stock" pic on the left-hand side
              clinches it as being unmistakeable. Except for the pic covering the left 2/3 of
              the box, the rest of the box was red and white; perhaps the white portions on
              yours have discolored greatly due to age. The box top designs were changed
              a number of times along the years for these same cars. The box you describe
              (with a GLOSSY paper overlay on the top, and the rolling stock photo) was
              supplied from 1953 through 1957, so your particular car would have been made
              anywhere during those 4 years, even though it was first produced much
              earlier Ray Wetzel.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14230 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              Yes, this would be the same company, founded by M. Dale Newton in Oregon.
              The firm has changed hands a number of times throughout the years, In 1955,
              Newton sold the Red Ball company to Howell Day (then-owner of The Model
              Railroad Shop in Piscataway, NJ). When Howell Day retired in 1975, he sold Red
              Ball to Merle Rice -- Model Railroad Warehouse/Wabash Valley Models, and so
              it goes. Ray F.W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14231 From: rcjge Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              Hey Fella's:

              Thanks for the response. All helpful to be sure. I did look at those spreasheets mentioned and downloaded them for reference.

              My next question is more in the nature of what distinguishes the Athearm "Metal" kits (there appear to be an earlier kit with many more parts and a later 50's production with several fewer parts) from say the Silver Streak and Red Ball kits. As I mentioned this AAR 40' CNR box car kit from Athearn and yes I guess it was white/red the box when new has many more parts than Athearn kits I built in the late 60's early 70's. Looks like it will be a project to put together well along with perhaps wheel improvement and kadee's for operation.

              I wondered how you fella's thought the other vintage kits from Red Ball, Silver Streak, say Ambroid and maybe Ulrich or Globe stacked up in terms of being satisfying to build, how well made were they, were they good representations of the prototype?

              Thanks,
              Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > I recently aaquired some Ambroid kits and a couple weeks ago an Athearn "Canadian National Box A111" In a red/buff box with HO scale Equipment by Athearn on the front and a pic on the left side of a whack of rolling stock. Inside is an Athearn kit with vastly more pieces than what I remember in my first incarnation as a model RR-er in the 70's. Base on HoSeeker it appears to hail from the early 50's?
              >
              > Anyway, I have been looking at Red Ball cars and Silver streak cars and I can't find any history. There are a lot of unique freight cars there and it's not un-affordable to build one a month, maybe even two. I know some of you guys collect "paper-sided" cars and I wondered if you could open the door a little for me. I have some Model Railroader's from the 50's that have some info but I'd like to know if the cars I mentioned above can be built into fairly accurate models. This old Athearn I got sure does seem to have potential. There are also resin kits out there but the vintage stuff is very appealing to me...
              >
              > Thanks for listening,
              > Gareth
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14232 From: 23weldon Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Rubber bands
              Denny Anspach has the right idea with o-rings.  All the better if you can get pricey silicone o-rings in the right size.  They resist environmental conditions like heat and ozone, have a high friction coefficient for good "traction" and a low elastic modulus meaning less force to stretch and therefore lower loads and power losses in the motor and shaft bearings.
              In the last 5 or 6 years something happened to rubber band materials.  When I was a kid all rubber bands would last for many years.  I think they were all made of natural rubber, the kind that grows on trees in Southeast Asia.  I'd venture a guess here that the growth of the economies of China and its neighbors have stressed that source.   Rising price of natural rubber has likely fostered the use of synthetic mixes made from home grown chemistries by small businesses in heavy competition with each other. No one close to the manufacturing cares what gets thrown in the melting pot as long as the cost is driven down.  The end users are too far away to have their complaints heard.  Another case of what I call the "Hibachi Syndrome".   The product gets cheaper and lower in quality until nobody will buy it. Somewhere there are middlemen that are stuck with unsaleable junk and a market that has been effectively killed.
              There is still some differentiation in rubber bands.  You have to know which ones are good and which ones are junk.
              The rubber bands that are wrapped around my daily newspaper are pure junk and start to harden and crack within a month if stretched.  On the other hand the colored rubber bands used to wrap broccoli and asparagus are high quality stuff (and I suspect require FDA approval for food contact)  BTW they are the perfect size for holding rolling stock kit boxes closed.
              Ed Weldon
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14233 From: Nelson B Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              Bluenose,

              It was the double-shafted version of this 24v motor, which unfortunately All Electronics doesn't seem to have any more in stock.

              http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCM-345/12-24VDC-MOTOR/1.html

              They actually make these hi-fi units run at prototypical speeds, because the RPM's are so low. I can let it buzz around for hours, and the motor barely gets warm. I have a few more, and I'd like to try one in an F-unit one of these days.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bluenosedviking" <bluenosedviking@...> wrote:
              >
              > That looks good - gotta hand it to WalMart. What motor are you using?"
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14234 From: bluenosedviking Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              Thank you for the information, Nelson. I believe the motor is a Mabuchi RS380PH and it just might be available from Addison Electronics:

              https://www.addison-electronique.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?currency=USD&keywords=rpm&sort=3a&page=3&language=en

              There are other motors as well that might suit my two Athearn P4 Pacifics.

              Kurt



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson B" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
              >
              > Bluenose,
              >
              > It was the double-shafted version of this 24v motor, which unfortunately All Electronics doesn't seem to have any more in stock.
              >
              > http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCM-345/12-24VDC-MOTOR/1.html
              >
              > They actually make these hi-fi units run at prototypical speeds, because the RPM's are so low. I can let it buzz around for hours, and the motor barely gets warm. I have a few more, and I'd like to try one in an F-unit one of these days.
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bluenosedviking" <bluenosedviking@> wrote:
              > >
              > > That looks good - gotta hand it to WalMart. What motor are you using?"
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14235 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Hi Ray F.W., All,
               
              With my PC under repair, still catching up with the past few day's discussion of the problems with Zamac and thank all for the most thorough discussions I have read, and that is after I did considerable web research on the topic a year or so ago.  I'm printing out many of the comments and posts for my file.
               
              The only information I can add at this point, Ray, is that you were exactly right about the printing equipment used by M. Dale Newton at Red Ball.  Here is an excerpt from an undated article on Red Pall published circa 1950 in a "Popular" general interest magazine outlining Red Ball's manufacturing process:
               
              "...From the detailed drawings and specifications, each piece of this whole passenger car is "blown up" to 24 times HO scale on the drafting board.  This is then put on a special machine called the Gorton Engraving Pantograph.  From this drawing, an exact reproduction is reduced to eight times HO scale and routed on a flat piece of metal called the "master copy."  This metal "master copy" is then further reduced to the HO scale,, and engraved on a brass die, which is placed in a Ludlow typecasting machine which diecasts the train parts."
               
              Two of the accompanying illustrations show setting up a Red Ball truck die on the Gorton and diecasting parts on the Ludlow.  I am pursuing obtaining permission to get permission from the copyright owner to include it in a Red Ball article or failing that, at least share it here in our limited group pages, if not on HO Seeker.
               
              Me second thought were that certain manufacturers, such as Chapper of hobbytown of Boston, obviously took care to ensure that their product was made from likely NJ Zinc Co. product under strict quality control.  Others, interested in making models at a price, were content to buy from the lowest priced casting house, either ignorant of the problem or worse, knew but did not care.  Many of the Varney Docksiders and freight cars of the Kramer era are notorious for their deteriorating frames, resulting in severly damaged plastic body castings as the metal swells.  I'm sure more than a few unethical casters also took a short cut and did not purchase ingots from NJ Zinc and used substitute material, but saying they used only the best.
               
              W Jay W.
               
               
               
               

               


              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, May 30, 2010 4:39:06 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles

               

              I would not doubt the use of lead alloys instead of zamac being used by M.
              Dale Newton/Red Ball as an extreme possiblity for use in hs parts, since
              realizing he was a printer. In general, Red Ball castings are on the "soft"
              side as opposed to harder zamac castings. Similar lead alloys may well have
              been used by Albert Mercer. K. Lynwood Stauffer and Robert Faust (Penn Line)
              and also by Lew English who continued their line, as many of these castings
              are not as "hard" as zamac, although not as soft as Red Ball castings.

              Type-metal alloys of lead were poured in various quanties of companion
              metals, depending upon their use, and determining their hardness, durability and
              detailing/molding ability. That type-metal used in casting foundry type
              consists of 18% tin, 28% antimony and 54% lead, while the type-metal used for
              casting slugs of cast type in Ludlow and Linotype machines consists of only
              3% tin, 11% antimony and 86% lead. The tin makes it durable with the
              antimony hardens it. There were three other grades for different applications in
              printing, but the foundry type metal would have been best for modeling
              purposes. Occasionally, copper was sometimes added to create type being used for
              long runs of printing. I've used this myself at times, for uniting
              (unifying) broken frames with excellent results when casting them in clay molds
              (I'm a retired printer).

              Zamac (or, "Zamak") for use in the model railroad industry consists
              primarily of zinc with a mixture of from 3.9% to 4.5% aluminum, 0.02% to 0.05%
              copper (1% to 3% copper for costume jewelry) and up to 0.06% magnesium. As Ken
              points out, Zamak was originally produced by New Jersey Zinc (starting in
              1929), and it was offered in varying grades -- ZA2, ZA3, ZA5, ZA7 and ZA8,
              etc. Of these, there are varying mixes of these grades, at different price
              ranges. The ZA5 is the alloy mixture used mostly for model railroading
              manufacturing; very similar to the ZA3 that was first used for this application.
              It consists of from 3.9% to 4.5% aluminum, from 0.02% to 0.05% copper and up
              to 0.06% magnesium added to the main metal -- zinc. Other grades have
              increasingly higher amounts, with ZA2 having 3.0 % copper increasing it's
              strength by 20 X, and ZA8 having 8% aluminum -- but both at a much increased cost.

              As zinc is mined in its natural state, it can contain the very impurities
              we have been talking about. Zamak only needs to contain 0.008% lead and
              0.006% cadmium to promote "zincpest." Raw zinc may contain as much as 0.05%
              lead and 0.02% cadmium. When compared to the previous numbers and to the
              similar numbers Jim supplied, we can see how Zamak could have been a problem in
              model railroad parts castings if the manufacturer chose to go the "economy
              route," even before contaminating it from floor sweepings. The occasional tin
              foil (used for sealing cigarette packs) finding their way into the melting
              pots didn't help matters though, as they used real tin back then for
              wrappers. As it was cheap, tin foil was today's aluminum foil. The zinc
              eventually used by NJ Zinc in their ZA3 (recommended for model castings, and used by
              the more reputable manufacturers) was 99.993% pure and free of contaminents,
              which allowed for the best quality castings free of future zincpest. It
              seems, that while this purity of zinc is a necessity for zincpest-free Zamak,
              it's also the addition of the magnesium which is especially needed in
              keeping the Zamak zincpest-free. Incidentally, "Zamak" is an acronym for: Z=zink,
              A=Aluminum, MA=Magnesium and K=Kupfer (Copper).

              New Jersey Zinc's mines in Franklin, NJ had produced most of the zinc ore
              for commercial applications, even up through the early 1920's, but it was
              found that their nearby Sterling Hill Mine in Ogdensburg, NJ (only a couple of
              miles south) produced the purer 99.99% zinc ore necessary for the grade of
              Zamak for model railroad castings -- if the manufacturer agreed on buying
              this grade. Both sources were shipped via the Lehigh & Hudson River Railway to
              Pennsylvania, for delivery by the CNJ's Pennsylvania division to NJ Zinc's
              refinery in Palmerton, PA, although that ore coming from Ogdensburg first
              had to be shipped to Franklin via the NYS&W, then on the L&H. BTW, I have all
              the operations of this documented (35 years ago) in photographs and have
              supplied color slides to Richard Hauck (pres.) for his use in his Sterling
              Hill Newsletter magazine -- the mine now being a museum after closing
              operations at least 20 years ago or more. The L&HR is a particular northeast
              favorite of mine which I spent many days (over many years) photographing.

              There have been other alloys used for model castings, although not
              extensively used in model railroading. One of these was white metal (not to be
              confused with zamac, even though some people use the name interchangeably); its
              a mixture of 91.5% to 92.5% tin, 2.9% to 3.1% antimony, 1.4% to 1.6& cadmium
              and 3.3% to 3.7% lead. The term, "pot metal" is sometimes also confused
              with white metal, but can consist of any of the metals mentioned above in no
              particular proportions, far different from white metal. They were both used
              for casting toy automobiles. Ray F.W.

              </HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14236 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              Gareth, I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean by earlier kits and
              later kits (than your Athearn CN AAR Boxcar), respectively have many more and
              fewer parts. Are you referring to Athearn metal kits here, in comparison to
              your AAR Boxcar kit? Athearn supplied about the same amount of parts for a
              similar style car regardless of when it was released -- a difference being
              only in that the earliest AAR boxcars had a wooden superstructure (milled
              sub-roof, fllor and end pieces -- and vertical braces along each side).
              Otherwise, the metal parts were virtually all about the same. If, by chance,
              you're referring to Athearn metal Round-Roof boxcars, they were of course of a
              slightly different construction style requiring a few less parts.

              As for what distinguishes Athearn metal freight cars from Red Ball or
              Silver Streak, the answer is obvious in that the latter two kits were not all
              metal but had either wooden or cardstock sides -- if this is what you're
              getting at. Getting back to your Athearn A-111 CN Boxcar, and it's somewhat more
              difficult (in numbers of parts) assembly as compared to Athearn kits you
              built which were produced in the late ' 60's and early ' 70's -- which
              obviously were plastic by that time -- yes, the earlier Athearn metal kits had much
              more metal detail that needed to be installed by the model builder. As
              these metal parts were separate, the finished car did not have any appearance of
              having molded on detail, but were more to the prototype in appearance in
              that respect. They are well worth taking the extra time to build properly.
              The Athearn trucks supplied with these kits were fairly decent in operation
              and just as good (if not better) than many older models. You of course would
              want to install KD's on them, as you might on an other model if that's your
              operating standard.

              Building Red Ball, Silver Streak, Ambroid, Ulrich or Globe (or Athearn,
              metal) varied in their challenge in assembling them, but that's where the
              enjoyment and satisfaction comes in when you take your time building them, having
              them come out looking as well done as you can possibly make them. There's
              comparatively little satisfaction (or enjoyment -- expect perhaps for
              instant gratification) in putting together "shake-the-box" kits that takes you
              minutes to assemble. Building some of these more challenging kits is part of
              what the hobby is all about. As for how well these kits build up, much of
              how they turn out stems from the modelers' craftsmanship and how much time
              went into them. A rushed job shows in the final appearance and only serves to
              defeat the purpose of building them to begin with. If well done, even the
              simplest cardboard side kits, such as Megow or Ideal can look quite
              acceptable even if they're not as well detailed as are the newer ones. Silver
              Streak's scribed wood sides go a long way in making them look more prototypical.
              Ulrich's extent of cast detail is a great plus in having a fine finished
              product too. Many of the factory paint and lettering jobs are hard to beat
              when considering what they add to realism.

              Those with lesser quality lettering (such as Binkley, to use an example)
              are enjoyed by the collector at least just for what they are, even if they may
              not have as prototypical a look to them. The "rivet counter" may not
              appreciate them, but they have a charm of their own in the collecting side of the
              hobby. While Globe metal boxcars and reefers are quite similar in their
              finished appearance to Athearn metal cars, a major drawback of them if you
              want to consider how prototypical they are is that they're just too high --
              especially noticeable with the reefers having excess space between the top of
              the door and the roof line. While the boxcars are the same height, they're
              not quite as "offensive," but again, as collector items for the H0 hobbyist,
              they're right up there as being kits that are extremely sought after by
              many. Varney's metal freight car assembly is a bit simpler than Athearn's and
              it shows it, although they're still acceptable -- at least to the collector
              -- to look at on the layout in terms of approaching the prototypical, with
              some misgivings are offered for them not being quite as high as should be,
              and they do lack a bit for detail but again it's overlooked (it's not a
              glaring omission). A very many H0 collectors appreciate Varney metal freight cars
              for what they are. If we wanted exact scale models, we would have bought
              nothing but Pacific Fast Mail. Ray F. W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14237 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Hi W. Jay W., Sorry to hear you're having PC problems. I think many of us
              have been there and it's no fun. Hope you get back up real soon. My
              pleasure in offering what I could about Zamak and other castings, and thanks for
              the credits you've given me. As a printer from way back in the Letterpress
              era of yesteryear (LOL) and the Hot Metal that went along with Ludlow and
              Linotype machines of that time, I'm well versed in the procedures of the
              methods M. Dale Newton used in casting parts with a Ludlow machine. Being a
              compositor (as well as a pressman), I often used Ludlow machines myself and see
              this as quite interesting that Mr. Newton used it for making Red Ball
              castings -- obviously then, of a lead alloy -- and a slightly "softer" one at
              that, than if they were to have been made of Foundry Type metal.

              Foundry type metal, BTW, is that type which was pre-cast in fonts (at a
              type manufacturing foundry) as individual letters, which we had to "set" by
              hand in a steel "job stick," selected from a compartmented wooden case
              containing all of these characters, but not to get O/T, I'll drop this part of the
              discussion here. Mr. Newton's methods of using an engraving machine to
              convert his scale drawings into brass dyes is most interesting. One thing I
              meant to mention in my previous post in this thread was that the Ulrich NJ Zinc
              General Service gondola, represented that same prototype car used by New
              Jersey Zinc within the confines of their vast Palmerton, PA foundry. It may
              well have been used in earlier years off site, possibly to transport zinc ore,
              but the later years saw 32' twin-bay covered ore hoppers for this service.
              A nice model to have, especially if you're modeling a Northeastern Road.
              Ray F.W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14238 From: bob d Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Varney Kits on eBay
              Thought a few of you fellers may be interested..... I've got some of these kits still in boxes. I'm watching those I don't have in hopes of nabbing a couple. But, some of you guys are much more involved in collecting than I, so if I lose the auction, my hopes are that some of you will benefit by being the victors.

              http://cgi.ebay.com/Varney-B-41-Alton-RR-40-AAR-Reynolds-Car-Kit-HO-/110541207687?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item19bcc4f887

              Bob
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14239 From: jerrygart5 Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              Merle Rice of Model RR Warehouse is the proud owner of the heritage Red Ball operation; he lurks on these pages as time permits. A wealth of knowledge, and great place to find new "old stuff" if you want to step back in time. Jerry Garteiser

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Robert Karnisky <karnisky@...> wrote:
              >
              > I don't know if it's the same company, but there's a Red Ball "founded in 1939 by M. Dale Newton" mentioned at:
              >  
              > http://www.mrrwarehouse.com/about.htm
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14240 From: rcjge Date: 6/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Red ball, Silver Streak, early Athearn Metal/Wood?
              Hi Ray:

              That was great. Perspective is what I was looking for. I just rolled in from work and have to head out again in about 6 hours on what will likely be a 14-15 hour work day but I'd very much like to follow up on your comments. I'm pretty delighted with this CN AAR 40' boxcar and the few Ambroids I have. The fact that I will have to develop skills to really make them turn out well and that they will take time is what makes them so appealing to me.

              To everyone that replied thanks for your contribution!

              Night,
              Gareth



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
              >
              > Gareth, I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean by earlier kits and
              > later kits (than your Athearn CN AAR Boxcar), respectively have many more and
              > fewer parts. Are you referring to Athearn metal kits here, in comparison to
              > your AAR Boxcar kit? Athearn supplied about the same amount of parts for a
              > similar style car regardless of when it was released -- a difference being
              > only in that the earliest AAR boxcars had a wooden superstructure (milled
              > sub-roof, fllor and end pieces -- and vertical braces along each side).
              > Otherwise, the metal parts were virtually all about the same. If, by chance,
              > you're referring to Athearn metal Round-Roof boxcars, they were of course of a
              > slightly different construction style requiring a few less parts.
              >
              > As for what distinguishes Athearn metal freight cars from Red Ball or
              > Silver Streak, the answer is obvious in that the latter two kits were not all
              > metal but had either wooden or cardstock sides -- if this is what you're
              > getting at. Getting back to your Athearn A-111 CN Boxcar, and it's somewhat more
              > difficult (in numbers of parts) assembly as compared to Athearn kits you
              > built which were produced in the late ' 60's and early ' 70's -- which
              > obviously were plastic by that time -- yes, the earlier Athearn metal kits had much
              > more metal detail that needed to be installed by the model builder. As
              > these metal parts were separate, the finished car did not have any appearance of
              > having molded on detail, but were more to the prototype in appearance in
              > that respect. They are well worth taking the extra time to build properly.
              > The Athearn trucks supplied with these kits were fairly decent in operation
              > and just as good (if not better) than many older models. You of course would
              > want to install KD's on them, as you might on an other model if that's your
              > operating standard.
              >
              > Building Red Ball, Silver Streak, Ambroid, Ulrich or Globe (or Athearn,
              > metal) varied in their challenge in assembling them, but that's where the
              > enjoyment and satisfaction comes in when you take your time building them, having
              > them come out looking as well done as you can possibly make them. There's
              > comparatively little satisfaction (or enjoyment -- expect perhaps for
              > instant gratification) in putting together "shake-the-box" kits that takes you
              > minutes to assemble. Building some of these more challenging kits is part of
              > what the hobby is all about. As for how well these kits build up, much of
              > how they turn out stems from the modelers' craftsmanship and how much time
              > went into them. A rushed job shows in the final appearance and only serves to
              > defeat the purpose of building them to begin with. If well done, even the
              > simplest cardboard side kits, such as Megow or Ideal can look quite
              > acceptable even if they're not as well detailed as are the newer ones. Silver
              > Streak's scribed wood sides go a long way in making them look more prototypical.
              > Ulrich's extent of cast detail is a great plus in having a fine finished
              > product too. Many of the factory paint and lettering jobs are hard to beat
              > when considering what they add to realism.
              >
              > Those with lesser quality lettering (such as Binkley, to use an example)
              > are enjoyed by the collector at least just for what they are, even if they may
              > not have as prototypical a look to them. The "rivet counter" may not
              > appreciate them, but they have a charm of their own in the collecting side of the
              > hobby. While Globe metal boxcars and reefers are quite similar in their
              > finished appearance to Athearn metal cars, a major drawback of them if you
              > want to consider how prototypical they are is that they're just too high --
              > especially noticeable with the reefers having excess space between the top of
              > the door and the roof line. While the boxcars are the same height, they're
              > not quite as "offensive," but again, as collector items for the H0 hobbyist,
              > they're right up there as being kits that are extremely sought after by
              > many. Varney's metal freight car assembly is a bit simpler than Athearn's and
              > it shows it, although they're still acceptable -- at least to the collector
              > -- to look at on the layout in terms of approaching the prototypical, with
              > some misgivings are offered for them not being quite as high as should be,
              > and they do lack a bit for detail but again it's overlooked (it's not a
              > glaring omission). A very many H0 collectors appreciate Varney metal freight cars
              > for what they are. If we wanted exact scale models, we would have bought
              > nothing but Pacific Fast Mail. Ray F. W. </HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14241 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Hi Ray F.W., and All,
               
              Reaching back into the history of the manufacturers has been a valuable asset in understanding why they chose to use particular methods of production of their models.  Though I do not have them at hand now, I believe M. Dale Newton reflected in an early catalog or newsletter that after his initial exposure to the HO models and kits being offered in the late 1930's, his understanding of his particular trade, printing, led him to believe he could do better using the tools of his trade that he understood so well.  And he did produce better and a wider variety than had ever been seen, faithfully using the Car Builder's Cyclopedias for plans instead of simply using one particular boxcar or flat car to represent all. 
               
              Interesting that only a couple years earlier, Gordon Varney, living in the same general city, also came in contact with model railroading and pursued his dream a bit differently.  I often wonder if  Dale Newton and Varney ever had any personal contact, and interesting that they both left the L.A. area at about the same time, Newton for Oregon and Varney for Chicago.
               
              Besides the article I mentioned in my last post, the only other published photograph of Newton using any of his equipment is the one that appears on page 2 of RB Catalog 9 at HO Seeker, which shows him at the Gorton engraver.
               
              W. Jay W.


              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, June 2, 2010 6:59:37 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles

               

              Hi W. Jay W., Sorry to hear you're having PC problems. I think many of us
              have been there and it's no fun. Hope you get back up real soon. My
              pleasure in offering what I could about Zamak and other castings, and thanks for
              the credits you've given me. As a printer from way back in the Letterpress
              era of yesteryear (LOL) and the Hot Metal that went along with Ludlow and
              Linotype machines of that time, I'm well versed in the procedures of the
              methods M. Dale Newton used in casting parts with a Ludlow machine. Being a
              compositor (as well as a pressman), I often used Ludlow machines myself and see
              this as quite interesting that Mr. Newton used it for making Red Ball
              castings -- obviously then, of a lead alloy -- and a slightly "softer" one at
              that, than if they were to have been made of Foundry Type metal.

              Foundry type metal, BTW, is that type which was pre-cast in fonts (at a
              type manufacturing foundry) as individual letters, which we had to "set" by
              hand in a steel "job stick," selected from a compartmented wooden case
              containing all of these characters, but not to get O/T, I'll drop this part of the
              discussion here. Mr. Newton's methods of using an engraving machine to
              convert his scale drawings into brass dyes is most interesting. One thing I
              meant to mention in my previous post in this thread was that the Ulrich NJ Zinc
              General Service gondola, represented that same prototype car used by New
              Jersey Zinc within the confines of their vast Palmerton, PA foundry. It may
              well have been used in earlier years off site, possibly to transport zinc ore,
              but the later years saw 32' twin-bay covered ore hoppers for this service.
              A nice model to have, especially if you're modeling a Northeastern Road.
              Ray F.W. </HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14242 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/3/2010
              Subject: Printing and Early Walther's Box
              Hi Ray F.W.,
               
              Learning that you are an experienced printer struck home as a few months ago I was searching the web for some general printing knowledge in regard to an early Walter's kit box!
               
              My question was in regard to what to call the little printer's typefaces that were used to obliterate or overprint previously printed text, and also to fill space.  I think I read somewhere that the miscellaneous type were called printer's "bugs" but have no idea if that is correct.
               
              The box in question was first a Walther's FINDEX office fling system equipment box, which was later overprinted for a Walthers Taylor-Made boxcar kit, as the construction method of the Taylor-Made kit is fully described on the bottom.  The box was then overprinted a second time, obliterating the paragraph with type. 
               
              This obliteration consists of 15 lines of type, 8 consisting of dashes, and seven of little swastikas in groups of three interspersed with a sort of single round "flower."  The swastikas are not the Nazi type set at a 45 degree angle, but are oriented on a level plane as found in American Indian and Asian decorations.
               
              So, what is the correct term for this filler type, if there is one?
               
              To round out the information, the kit packed inside, is 40' steel boxcar #6801 which was first shown in the 1941 Walthers catalog (issued in April 1941).  The large sized blueprint plans inside are dated 9-28-44 and were intended for both kits # 6801 and # 6828, as Walther's often doubled up on plan use back then.
               
              W. Jay W.
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14243 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              W. Jay W., Good Stuff !!! Posts like this, even if they only contain a
              few otherwise unknown tid-bits, are invaluable in helping piece together the
              history of a manufacturer. Up until now, I was unaware that Newton used the
              Car Builders Cyclopedias in trying to faithfully reproduce his kits (or
              maybe I just forgot since it's been a while since I read up on him). It does
              make one wonder if Newton and Varney ever knew each other, as they sure seemed
              to have the opportunity to do so. Realizing now the components of the
              alloy Newton had worked with, it's no wonder some of his all-metal models
              weighed a ton < g >, but any of them are just great to have. I believe I may have
              previously mentioned that I particularly like all of the various heavy-duty
              and deep-well flat cars, prototypical to the particular railroads after
              which they were modeled, but his wrecker was (which I also have) maybe best
              left in the yard as a static display. It has got to weigh more than Athearn's
              all-metal Big Hook, and even that one could use double-headed loco's to pull
              it when included with a wreck train. Immaterial though, as it's a great
              reproduction -- and many of us wouldn't want to do without it. Ray F.W.
              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14244 From: Nelson B Date: 6/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              Kurt,

              The model no. on these motors is RS-365SH, and they are 32mm L x 26mm D. The motors you pointed out seem to have similar operational specs, but are larger.

              What motor were you considering for the P4? Mine is the 1962 version with the long brass worm mounted on the motor, and I don't think I can get it off without destroying it or bending the motor shaft -- it's on that tight. The version with the separate gearbox on the middle axle would be easier to remotor.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bluenosedviking" <bluenosedviking@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Thank you for the information, Nelson. I believe the motor is a Mabuchi RS380PH and it just might be available from Addison Electronics:
              >
              > https://www.addison-electronique.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?currency=USD&keywords=rpm&sort=3a&page=3&language=en
              >
              > There are other motors as well that might suit my two Athearn P4 Pacifics.
              >
              > Kurt
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14245 From: bluenosedviking Date: 6/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              Nelson,

              Having looked at the list of motors I've concluded that none of them fit without a lot of excruciating surgery. Also at this time I can't afford the NWSL motor. That notwithstanding I don't think we have to live with poor performance which I think is due to inconsistent/intermittent contact problems in the chain from track to motor.

              I can tell you what I have done so far:
              -hard wire the motor and scrap the contact strip under the boiler.
              -on the tender replace all wheels and install pickup wipers similar to that on diesels

              The locomotive with plastic drivers presented a further problem in that the number of contact wheels was too few and the wheelspan was too short to clear a double 90 crossing behind my WRJ depot. I therefore fitted metal wheels and pickups on the leading and trailing trucks.

              With a good quality controller I can get the locomotives to run slowly and smoothly without the frustrating jerkiness that kept them in storage for decades. With no load the locomotives drew 0.3A and while hauling seven heavyweights it was 0.4A.

              Having said that I'm still looking for a reasonably priced replacement motor.

              Kurt



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson B" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
              >
              > Kurt,
              >
              > The model no. on these motors is RS-365SH, and they are 32mm L x 26mm D. The motors you pointed out seem to have similar operational specs, but are larger.
              >
              > What motor were you considering for the P4? Mine is the 1962 version with the long brass worm mounted on the motor, and I don't think I can get it off without destroying it or bending the motor shaft -- it's on that tight. The version with the separate gearbox on the middle axle would be easier to remotor.
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bluenosedviking" <bluenosedviking@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Thank you for the information, Nelson. I believe the motor is a Mabuchi RS380PH and it just might be available from Addison Electronics:
              > >
              > > https://www.addison-electronique.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?currency=USD&keywords=rpm&sort=3a&page=3&language=en
              > >
              > > There are other motors as well that might suit my two Athearn P4 Pacifics.
              > >
              > > Kurt
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14246 From: greg10562 Date: 6/4/2010
              Subject: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
              I recently bought a 50-foot mechanical refrigerator car at a train show. I took it apart and it has no manufacturer's identification on it. The floor/underframe is one piece cast metal. The sides, ends, roof and roofwalk are separate plastic pieces. The sides and ends fit together with small tabs on the inside and are glued. The roof, roofwalk and ends are reefer brown, the sides are reefer yellow. It is factory painted and lettered for American Refrigerator Transit. Reporting marks are RMDX 393. I have never seen this model before. Does it sound familiar to anyone? Maybe a Front Range, Mckeen, Revell, Lindberg? It is not MDC.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14247 From: bob d Date: 6/4/2010
              Subject: Re: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
              My guess would be Roundhouse. Got a couple just as you described, but I can't check them at the moment for road numbers.

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "greg10562" <greg10562@...> wrote:
              >
              > I recently bought a 50-foot mechanical refrigerator car at a train show. I took it apart and it has no manufacturer's identification on it. The floor/underframe is one piece cast metal. The sides, ends, roof and roofwalk are separate plastic pieces. The sides and ends fit together with small tabs on the inside and are glued. The roof, roofwalk and ends are reefer brown, the sides are reefer yellow. It is factory painted and lettered for American Refrigerator Transit. Reporting marks are RMDX 393. I have never seen this model before. Does it sound familiar to anyone? Maybe a Front Range, Mckeen, Revell, Lindberg? It is not MDC.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14248 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 6/4/2010
              Subject: Re: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
              Hi Greg -

              I believe you have a Golden Spike 50' mechanical reefer which is close to FGE or FC&F prototypes.  Golden Spike was owned by Walthers as of their 1978 catalog (I believe previously by Pacific HO).  The ART car the catalog illustrates is RDMX 366.

              Reed



              -----Original Message-----
              From: greg10562 <greg10562@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, Jun 4, 2010 1:29 pm
              Subject: [vintageHO] I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock

               
              I recently bought a 50-foot mechanical refrigerator car at a train show. I took it apart and it has no manufacturer's identification on it. The floor/underframe is one piece cast metal. The sides, ends, roof and roofwalk are separate plastic pieces. The sides and ends fit together with small tabs on the inside and are glued. The roof, roofwalk and ends are reefer brown, the sides are reefer yellow. It is factory painted and lettered for American Refrigerator Transit. Reporting marks are RMDX 393. I have never seen this model before. Does it sound familiar to anyone? Maybe a Front Range, Mckeen, Revell, Lindberg? It is not MDC.

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14249 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
              Hi Ray F.W.,
               
              Thanks for the good words!  One interesting aspect of the early Red Ball flat car models is that there are early and late versions with significant differences in detail, the later versions being introduced beginning in the late 1940's; the 200 ton big hook and boom car included in models with two distinct versions.  It was finding the early versions that prompted me to seek out the earlier catalogs before most were on HO Seeker and the RB newsletters (still missing R.B. Catalog # 2).   I have collected, built and/or charted most of them now on a time line chart and will work more on it in the next few months to get the chronological model history in draft format so it may be shared and vetted. 
               
              And hopefully will get my PC situation fixed soon! Or a new laptop...
               
              W. Jay W.


              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, June 3, 2010 3:01:54 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles

               

              W. Jay W., Good Stuff !!! Posts like this, even if they only contain a
              few otherwise unknown tid-bits, are invaluable in helping piece together the
              history of a manufacturer. Up until now, I was unaware that Newton used the
              Car Builders Cyclopedias in trying to faithfully reproduce his kits (or
              maybe I just forgot since it's been a while since I read up on him). It does
              make one wonder if Newton and Varney ever knew each other, as they sure seemed
              to have the opportunity to do so. Realizing now the components of the
              alloy Newton had worked with, it's no wonder some of his all-metal models
              weighed a ton < g >, but any of them are just great to have. I believe I may have
              previously mentioned that I particularly like all of the various heavy-duty
              and deep-well flat cars, prototypical to the particular railroads after
              which they were modeled, but his wrecker was (which I also have) maybe best
              left in the yard as a static display. It has got to weigh more than Athearn's
              all-metal Big Hook, and even that one could use double-headed loco's to pull
              it when included with a wreck train. Immaterial though, as it's a great
              reproduction -- and many of us wouldn't want to do without it. Ray F.W.
              </HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14250 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/4/2010
              Subject: Re: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "greg10562" <greg10562@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 12:29 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock


              >I recently bought a 50-foot mechanical refrigerator car at a train show. I
              >took it apart and it has no manufacturer's identification on it. The
              >floor/underframe is one piece cast metal. The sides, ends, roof and
              >roofwalk are separate plastic pieces. The sides and ends fit together with
              >small tabs on the inside and are glued. The roof, roofwalk and ends are
              >reefer brown, the sides are reefer yellow. It is factory painted and
              >lettered for American Refrigerator Transit. Reporting marks are RMDX 393. I
              >have never seen this model before. Does it sound familiar to anyone? Maybe
              >a Front Range, Mckeen, Revell, Lindberg? It is not MDC.
              >

              The multipiece plastic body suggests to me the Walthers/pacific HO "Golden
              Spike" series of the 1970's. The metal underframe doesn't sound right
              though. The other possibility is someone put the golden spike body on an
              MDC floor.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14251 From: morgantownrr Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Cadmium
              Sometimes I suspect the Fates have run out of new ideas. Have you noticed tha headline this morning wherein McDonald's is recalling specialty glasses because of CADMIUM content? Cadmium, cadmium? Why does that sound familiar?
              Morgan
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14252 From: louis niederlander Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Cadmium
              I believe this is the toxin that is liberated during silver soldering.
               
              Regards,
               
              Louis N

               
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > From: morgantownrr@...
              > Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 12:03:20 +0000
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Cadmium
              >
              > Sometimes I suspect the Fates have run out of new ideas. Have you noticed tha headline this morning wherein McDonald's is recalling specialty glasses because of CADMIUM content? Cadmium, cadmium? Why does that sound familiar?
              > Morgan
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
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              >
              > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >


              The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. Get busy.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14253 From: Ken Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Cadmium
              In previous posts about Zamac / Zamak some one mentioned FOMOCO advertised that they cast their GG1 out of cadmium. I replied that it was toxic and that any cad parts I have have a coating of paint or I have had them copper plated.. I asked a Professor of Chemistry if this was OK. Paint was fine. It minimised direct contact. Copper platig may turn the parts into a battery through galvanic action. I'll have to unpack the shells to see. I did this prior to my kids being born in the 70s. I knew then that cad was bad stuff.
              Ken

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "morgantownrr" <morgantownrr@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sometimes I suspect the Fates have run out of new ideas. Have you noticed tha headline this morning wherein McDonald's is recalling specialty glasses because of CADMIUM content? Cadmium, cadmium? Why does that sound familiar?
              > Morgan
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14254 From: Mr Larry L. Doub Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Cadmium
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14255 From: jim heckard Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Cadmium
               
               
                    To All  especially Ray F W and W Jay W,
               
                       Due to the post concerning cadmium in FAMOCO engines ( which I knew about before ) I finally figured out why I constantly mix your names up when typing. After working for over 50 years with Vintage HO items many containing Lead and also Cadmium I finally figure out the problem. I have a rare neurological problem called chemical HOitist caused by the constant exposure to these metals. ( Hey my collection might even qualify to be a toxic superfund project. )
               
                   All joking aside maybe our group and others should be more aware of these possible problems and caution others. 
               
                                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ken
              Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 10:30 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cadmium

               

              In previous posts about Zamac / Zamak some one mentioned FOMOCO advertised that they cast their GG1 out of cadmium. I replied that it was toxic and that any cad parts I have have a coating of paint or I have had them copper plated.. I asked a Professor of Chemistry if this was OK. Paint was fine. It minimised direct contact. Copper platig may turn the parts into a battery through galvanic action. I'll have to unpack the shells to see. I did this prior to my kids being born in the 70s. I knew then that cad was bad stuff.
              Ken

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "morgantownrr" <morgantownrr@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sometimes I suspect the Fates have run out of new ideas. Have you noticed tha headline this morning wherein McDonald's is recalling specialty glasses because of CADMIUM content? Cadmium, cadmium? Why does that sound familiar?
              > Morgan
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14256 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Cadmium
              Jim, Were you thinking of giving me all your Famoco engines to alleviate
              this problem ? I wouldn't want to see you continue in bad health < g >. Ray
              F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14257 From: Chris B Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Cadmium
              Jim, I'm using lead free silver solder on the deck this afternoon as a result of all this useful cautionary info.

              What was the question?

              Oh look, there's a....


              From: erieberk@...
              Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 13:38:15 EDT
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Cadmium

               

              Jim, Were you thinking of giving me all your Famoco engines to alleviate
              this problem ? I wouldn't want to see you continue in bad health < g >. Ray
              F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14258 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Cadmium
              Hi Jim H., HaHa!  But as you said, standards and what was generally known back in those early modeling days could lead to all sorts of problems today.  Almost every article I've read in vintage model magazines recommended cleaning with Carbon Tet as well.  Cadmium plating on nuts and bolts and other metal parts was the standard in general hardware, too.  I only have one used FAMOCO GG-1 shell, with some paint and pantograph parts still attached which a train show vendor laughingly sold to me for a dollar, thinking he was unloading a beat up old Penn Line shell.  Will read up on the cadmium and then clean it and at least prime it.  Library closing in 15 minutes and PC still not repaired, so will catch up with all on Monday when it should be fixed!  W. Jay W.


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 11:31:38 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Cadmium

               

               
               
                    To All  especially Ray F W and W Jay W,
               
                       Due to the post concerning cadmium in FAMOCO engines ( which I knew about before ) I finally figured out why I constantly mix your names up when typing. After working for over 50 years with Vintage HO items many containing Lead and also Cadmium I finally figure out the problem. I have a rare neurological problem called chemical HOitist caused by the constant exposure to these metals. ( Hey my collection might even qualify to be a toxic superfund project. )
               
                   All joking aside maybe our group and others should be more aware of these possible problems and caution others. 
               
                                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ken
              Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 10:30 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Cadmium

               

              In previous posts about Zamac / Zamak some one mentioned FOMOCO advertised that they cast their GG1 out of cadmium. I replied that it was toxic and that any cad parts I have have a coating of paint or I have had them copper plated.. I asked a Professor of Chemistry if this was OK. Paint was fine. It minimised direct contact. Copper platig may turn the parts into a battery through galvanic action. I'll have to unpack the shells to see. I did this prior to my kids being born in the 70s. I knew then that cad was bad stuff.
              Ken

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "morgantownrr" <morgantownrr@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Sometimes I suspect the Fates have run out of new ideas. Have you noticed tha headline this morning wherein McDonald's is recalling specialty glasses because of CADMIUM content? Cadmium, cadmium? Why does that sound familiar?
              > Morgan
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14259 From: madchemep2@aol.com Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
              Hello: If you find a casting No. "FB-103A"  on the metal underframe that would indicate a Roundhouse car. Good luck. Al Campbell 
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14260 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <madchemep2@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 1:14 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock


              > Hello: If you find a casting No. "FB-103A" on the metal underframe that
              > would indicate a Roundhouse car. Good luck. Al Campbell
              >

              That would denote an MDC UNDERFRAME. He still has a multi-piece plastic
              body which would NOT be MDC.

              The car could very well be a "hybrid" of parts from more than one
              manufacturer.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14261 From: ron_tallyho Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              Thanks for the help. Found them at Walmart. Looks good. Hope they have a long shelf life. Ron Plyler

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "ron_tallyho" <ron_tallyho@...> wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone ever found a good source for rubber bands for the Athearn Hi-Fi drives. I recently rebanded several engines with new Athearn rubber bands and put them away. When I got them out three months later they had all turned to snot. I remember a company called Perfect that made train and model parts and they had bands made from neoprene. Ron Plyler
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14262 From: greg10562 Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
              Reed, you are correct. I just looked in my 1975 Walthers catalog and the car is by Golden Spike. Golden Spike was listed as a division of Walthers. They offered it for $4.95 back then. I bought it for $1.00 in Feb. 2010. It is a nice looking model, came with sprung metal trucks and Kadees too. You gotta love those train shows! I bought it from a guy who had a bunch of those cardboard trays full of cars. I picked up a Hobbytown once or twice from someone like that also...but that's another story for another time. Thanks to everyone for their help.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, estabrook@... wrote:
              >
              > Hi Greg -
              >
              > I believe you have a Golden Spike 50' mechanical reefer which is close to FGE or FC&F prototypes. Golden Spike was owned by Walthers as of their 1978 catalog (I believe previously by Pacific HO). The ART car the catalog illustrates is RDMX 366.
              >
              > Reed
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: greg10562 <greg10562@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Fri, Jun 4, 2010 1:29 pm
              > Subject: [vintageHO] I Need Help Identifying a Piece of Rolling Stock
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I recently bought a 50-foot mechanical refrigerator car at a train show. I took it apart and it has no manufacturer's identification on it. The floor/underframe is one piece cast metal. The sides, ends, roof and roofwalk are separate plastic pieces. The sides and ends fit together with small tabs on the inside and are glued. The roof, roofwalk and ends are reefer brown, the sides are reefer yellow. It is factory painted and lettered for American Refrigerator Transit. Reporting marks are RMDX 393. I have never seen this model before. Does it sound familiar to anyone? Maybe a Front Range, Mckeen, Revell, Lindberg? It is not MDC.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14263 From: orangetrainman Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: help iding manufacture
              Group I ned help with Iding this engine( who might have manufactured it)so that I can buy the replacment parts for it. any help you could provide is apriciated.
              please contact me at
              orangetrainman33@...
              thanks
              George FRY

              Her's the link http://tinyurl.com/2cc4frs
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14264 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
              Model Power.
              Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              New cost is $26 on line.
              Link:
              http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mdp/mdp96720.htm


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@...> wrote:
              >
              > Group I ned help with Iding this engine( who might have manufactured it)so that I can buy the replacment parts for it. any help you could provide is apriciated.
              > please contact me at
              > orangetrainman33@...
              > thanks
              > George FRY
              >
              > Her's the link http://tinyurl.com/2cc4frs
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14265 From: George Frey Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
              Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              dose this mean I ned the tender in order for this engine to work properly
              george

              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:01:38 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture

               

              Model Power.
              Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              New cost is $26 on line.
              Link:
              http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mdp/mdp96720.htm

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@...> wrote:
              >
              > Group I ned help with Iding this engine( who might have manufactured it)so that I can buy the replacment parts for it. any help you could provide is apriciated.
              > please contact me at
              > orangetrainman33@...
              > thanks
              > George FRY
              >
              > Her's the link http://tinyurl.com/2cc4frs
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14266 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
              Since they stated it runs (but not well) as-is, probably not.
              Except, you will have to most likely have to mount a coupler on the back where the drawbar for the tender attached.
              With a "hot" motor, the need to replace/repair, the missing tender, if I HAD to have that ugl....oooops.....engine, I would pay the $26 for a new complete one rather than the $17.50 for THAT one.
              To run without a tender, you have to ask yourself, on a prototype, where did they store the water?


              >
              > Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              > dose this mean I ned the tender in order for this engine to work properly
              > george
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:01:38 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture
              >
              >  
              > Model Power.
              > Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              > New cost is $26 on line.
              > Link:
              > http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mdp/mdp96720.htm
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Group I ned help with Iding this engine( who might have manufactured it)so that I can buy the replacment parts for it. any help you could provide is apriciated.
              > > please contact me at
              > > orangetrainman33@
              > > thanks
              > > George FRY
              > >
              > > Her's the link http://tinyurl.com/2cc4frs
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14267 From: George Frey Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: help iding manufacture



              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:50:24 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture

               



              Since they stated it runs (but not well) as-is, probably not.
              Except, you will have to most likely have to mount a coupler on the back where the drawbar for the tender attached.
              With a "hot" motor, the need to replace/repair, the missing tender, if I HAD to have that ugl....oooops.....engine, I would pay the $26 for a new complete one rather than the $17.50 for THAT one.
              To run without a tender, you have to ask yourself, on a prototype, where did they store the water?

              >
              > Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              > dose this mean I ned the tender in order for this engine to work properly
              > george
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:01:38
              PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture
              >
              >  
              > Model Power.
              > Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              > New cost is $26 on line.
              > Link:
              > http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mdp/mdp96720.htm
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Group I ned help with Iding this engine( who might have manufactured it)so that I can buy the replacment parts for it. any help you could provide is apriciated.
              > > please contact me at
              > > orangetrainman33@
              > > thanks
              > > George FRY
              > >
              > > Her's the link
              target=_blank>http://tinyurl.com/2cc4frs
              > >
              >

              so what you are trying (nicely) to say is that this engine is a "pice of crap" and I should look for a beter "old time engine' to add to my collection.

              sine I am fairly new could you give me some advice as to what I should look for?

              thank you


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14268 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/5/2010
              Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
              Well, it's all really your choice and your idea of what you want.
              That engine has a distinctive european cab, an odd spacing between the SPOKED pilot wheels and lead drivers, a strange cover at the rear of the cab (like a fuel bunker on a tank loco), and what appears to be a very early tender.

              You are on a "vintage" forum, which covers up into the 60's, some a little later.

              Athearn steam and early diseasemals, Varney, Mantua, PennLine, John A. English, things like that.

              If you're looking just for H0 trains, and don't know vintage, well, I'm not current on the new stuff.

              You should be able to find a nice older Mantua to start you going in the "vintage" parts fairly cheaply.

              I have the old Version 2 Mikado from Mantua, had it since we got it second-hand about 1959 or 1960, got another that needed work on the frame, fixed that, got another "kit" free, built that.

              I now have three Varney Old Lady 2-8-0's, a Varney pre-1948 Super Mikado, English Yardbird, pair of old VarneyDocksiders, Mantua 0-6-0 with tender, 0-4-0 tank, Athearn 0-6-0 tender loco, and an 0-4-2T, bunches of cast diseasemals, and most of it I've picked up for "mental health" in the last several years.

              Look around.
              You can often find them cheap.

              I used to buy $5 boxes of junk at train shows just for parts and stuff to repair.

              I got a bag of 10 cardboard and wood cars for $10 at the last train show about 6 months ago, had Megow, Varney all sorts of stuff.


              Dave

              > so what you are trying (nicely) to say is that this engine is a "pice of crap" and I should look for a beter "old time engine' to add to my collection.
              > sine I am fairly new could you give me some advice as to what I should look for?
              > thank you
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14269 From: Glenn476 Date: 6/6/2010
              Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
              It is European which means very unlikely that you can get parts. They want
              you to use their "official" repair stations. I ran into this often when I
              was living in a suburb of Fort Ord--guys would bring back trains from Europe
              and call me when they needed fixing. gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 8:36 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] help iding manufacture


              > Group I ned help with Iding this engine( who might have manufactured it)so
              > that I can buy the replacment parts for it. any help you could provide is
              > apriciated.
              > please contact me at
              > orangetrainman33@...
              > thanks
              > George FRY
              >
              > Her's the link http://tinyurl.com/2cc4frs
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14270 From: Nelson B Date: 6/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Rubber bands
              Kurt,

              My Pacific is the plastic drivered version, but I haven't had any problems with electrical pickup. I was surprised at how well the tender pickup works, because there is no jerkiness or headlight flicker, but the unit I bought was very clean with no oxidation. The only problem is the lack of torque in the original motor, so I'll probably replace the original magnet with a high powered neodymium one of these days. They always gives older open frames a boost in power and lower current draw, and it's much easier than remotoring, which isn't an option anyway if I can't remove the worm.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bluenosedviking" <bluenosedviking@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Nelson,
              >
              > Having looked at the list of motors I've concluded that none of them fit without a lot of excruciating surgery. Also at this time I can't afford the NWSL motor. That notwithstanding I don't think we have to live with poor performance which I think is due to inconsistent/intermittent contact problems in the chain from track to motor.
              >
              > I can tell you what I have done so far:
              > -hard wire the motor and scrap the contact strip under the boiler.
              > -on the tender replace all wheels and install pickup wipers similar to that on diesels
              >
              > The locomotive with plastic drivers presented a further problem in that the number of contact wheels was too few and the wheelspan was too short to clear a double 90 crossing behind my WRJ depot. I therefore fitted metal wheels and pickups on the leading and trailing trucks.
              >
              > With a good quality controller I can get the locomotives to run slowly and smoothly without the frustrating jerkiness that kept them in storage for decades. With no load the locomotives drew 0.3A and while hauling seven heavyweights it was 0.4A.
              >
              > Having said that I'm still looking for a reasonably priced replacement motor.
              >
              > Kurt
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14271 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/6/2010
              Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
              Hi George,
               
              I do not believe the tender for this engine has a power pick-up. I just sent one to a fellow in canada. He had a box with some room, so I threw it in. Had I known earlier, it would have been yours ...free. Parts are probably not avaliable as this loco is not really condusive to being repaired. 
               
              If the selling price is correct, I think you paid twice it's worth. Then again, opinions are like ..... everyone's got one.
              Next time I see one here, I'll let you know and it will be yours.
               
              Sean

              From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: idioticyahoo@...
              Sent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:20:28 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture

               

              Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              dose this mean I ned the tender in order for this engine to work properly
              george

              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:01:38 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture

               

              Model Power.
              Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              New cost is $26 on line.
              Link:
              http://www.hobbylin c.com/htm/ mdp/mdp96720. htm

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Group I ned help with Iding this engine( who might have manufactured it)so that I can buy the replacment parts for it. any help you could provide is apriciated.
              > please contact me at
              > orangetrainman33@ ...
              > thanks
              > George FRY
              >
              > Her's the link http://tinyurl. com/2cc4frs
              >



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14272 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/6/2010
              Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
              Hre you go George...
               
               
               
              If it ends at more than $10 I will be amazed.
               
              Sean


              From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:58:34 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture

               




              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:50:24 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture

               



              Since they stated it runs (but not well) as-is, probably not.
              Except, you will have to most likely have to mount a coupler on the back where the drawbar for the tender attached.
              With a "hot" motor, the need to replace/repair, the missing tender, if I HAD to have that ugl....oooops. ....engine, I would pay the $26 for a new complete one rather than the $17.50 for THAT one.
              To run without a tender, you have to ask yourself, on a prototype, where did they store the water?

              >
              > Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              > dose this mean I ned the tender in order for this engine to work properly
              > george
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ __
              > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ ...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              > Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:01:38
              PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture
              >
              >  
              > Model Power.
              > Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              > New cost is $26 on line.
              > Link:
              > http://www.hobbylin c.com/htm/ mdp/mdp96720. htm
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Group I ned help with Iding this engine( who might have manufactured it)so that I can buy the replacment parts for it. any help you could provide is apriciated.
              > > please contact me at
              > > orangetrainman33@
              > > thanks
              > > George FRY
              > >
              > > Her's the link
              target=_blank>http://tinyurl. com/2cc4frs
              > >
              >

              so what you are trying (nicely) to say is that this engine is a "pice of crap" and I should look for a beter "old time engine' to add to my collection.

              sine I am fairly new could you give me some advice as to what I should look for?

              thank you



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14273 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/6/2010
              Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
              trainsnwrcs wrote:
               

              Well, it's all really your choice and your idea of what you want.
              That engine has a distinctive european cab, an odd spacing between the SPOKED pilot wheels and lead drivers, a strange cover at the rear of the cab (like a fuel bunker on a tank loco), and what appears to be a very early tender.

              my uneducated comment... this thing looks like a German BR24 branchline Mogul which HAD a tender in reality (Fleischmann offered a so-so model of it in the sixties) - this was a common choice for toy train sets in Germany - , then somebody modified the cab with a fake coal bin... and to top this, added a old time tender...

              http://www.amazon.de/M%C3%A4rklin-36240-Dampflokomotive-BR-24/dp/B0017J8JF6

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14274 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/6/2010
              Subject: Athearn Pacific (was rupper bands)

              Nelson,
               Let me know how the new magnets work out in your early version Athearn Pacific.
               I have one with the rear geared drivers that I want to improve without it turning into a major remotor/regear project.
              --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Nelson B <greenbrier614@...> wrote:

              From: Nelson B <greenbrier614@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 3:31 AM

              Kurt,

              My Pacific is the plastic drivered version, but I haven't had any problems with electrical pickup. I was surprised at how well the tender pickup works, because there is no jerkiness or headlight flicker, but the unit I bought was very clean with no oxidation. The only problem is the lack of torque in the original motor, so I'll probably replace the original magnet with a high powered neodymium one of these days. They always gives older open frames a boost in power and lower current draw, and it's much easier than remotoring, which isn't an option anyway if I can't remove the worm.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bluenosedviking" <bluenosedviking@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Nelson,
              >
              > Having looked at the list of motors I've concluded that none of them fit without a lot of excruciating surgery.  Also at this time I can't afford the NWSL motor.  That notwithstanding I don't think we have to live with poor performance which I think is due to inconsistent/intermittent contact problems in the chain from track to motor.
              >
              > I can tell you what I have done so far:
              > -hard wire the motor and scrap the contact strip under the boiler.
              > -on the tender replace all wheels and install pickup wipers similar to that on diesels
              >
              > The locomotive with plastic drivers presented a further problem in that the number of contact wheels was too few and the wheelspan was too short to clear a double 90 crossing behind my WRJ depot.  I therefore fitted metal wheels and pickups on the leading and trailing trucks.
              >
              > With a good quality controller I can get the locomotives to run slowly and smoothly without the frustrating jerkiness that kept them in storage for decades.  With no load the locomotives drew 0.3A and while hauling seven heavyweights it was 0.4A.
              >
              > Having said that I'm still looking for a reasonably priced replacement motor.
              >
              > Kurt




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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14275 From: George Frey Date: 6/6/2010
              Subject: Re: help iding manufacture
              coll thanks!


              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, June 6, 2010 6:49:58 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture

               

              Hi George,
               
              I do not believe the tender for this engine has a power pick-up. I just sent one to a fellow in canada. He had a box with some room, so I threw it in. Had I known earlier, it would have been yours ...free. Parts are probably not avaliable as this loco is not really condusive to being repaired. 
               
              If the selling price is correct, I think you paid twice it's worth. Then again, opinions are like ..... everyone's got one.
              Next time I see one here, I'll let you know and it will be yours.
               
              Sean

              From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Cc: idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com
              Sent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:20:28 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture

               

              Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              dose this mean I ned the tender in order for this engine to work properly
              george

              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:01:38 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: help iding manufacture

               

              Model Power.
              Came with a tender (it's NOT a tank loco).
              New cost is $26 on line.
              Link:
              http://www.hobbylin c.com/htm/ mdp/mdp96720. htm

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "orangetrainman" <orangetrainman33@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Group I ned help with Iding this engine( who might have manufactured it)so that I can buy the replacment parts for it. any help you could provide is apriciated.
              > please contact me at
              > orangetrainman33@ ...
              > thanks
              > George FRY
              >
              > Her's the link http://tinyurl. com/2cc4frs
              >




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14276 From: bluenosedviking Date: 6/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rupper bands)
              Nelson,
              I would also be interested in knowing how you made out.
              Kurt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Nelson,
              >  Let me know how the new magnets work out in your early version Athearn Pacific.
              >  I have one with the rear geared drivers that I want to improve without it turning into a major remotor/regear project.
              > --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Nelson B <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Nelson B <greenbrier614@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 3:31 AM
              >
              >
              > Kurt,
              >
              > My Pacific is the plastic drivered version, but I haven't had any problems with electrical pickup. I was surprised at how well the tender pickup works, because there is no jerkiness or headlight flicker, but the unit I bought was very clean with no oxidation. The only problem is the lack of torque in the original motor, so I'll probably replace the original magnet with a high powered neodymium one of these days. They always gives older open frames a boost in power and lower current draw, and it's much easier than remotoring, which isn't an option anyway if I can't remove the worm.
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bluenosedviking" <bluenosedviking@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Nelson,
              > >
              > > Having looked at the list of motors I've concluded that none of them fit without a lot of excruciating surgery.  Also at this time I can't afford the NWSL motor.  That notwithstanding I don't think we have to live with poor performance which I think is due to inconsistent/intermittent contact problems in the chain from track to motor.
              > >
              > > I can tell you what I have done so far:
              > > -hard wire the motor and scrap the contact strip under the boiler.
              > > -on the tender replace all wheels and install pickup wipers similar to that on diesels
              > >
              > > The locomotive with plastic drivers presented a further problem in that the number of contact wheels was too few and the wheelspan was too short to clear a double 90 crossing behind my WRJ depot.  I therefore fitted metal wheels and pickups on the leading and trailing trucks.
              > >
              > > With a good quality controller I can get the locomotives to run slowly and smoothly without the frustrating jerkiness that kept them in storage for decades.  With no load the locomotives drew 0.3A and while hauling seven heavyweights it was 0.4A.
              > >
              > > Having said that I'm still looking for a reasonably priced replacement motor.
              > >
              > > Kurt
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14277 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 6/7/2010
              Subject: Pirated Carsides
              June 7,2010

              This morning I received a report from "an NMRA watchdog" that an ebay seller from California, estorebook, is selling pirated copies of Red Ball and NMRA car sides. Over the years we (and Howell Day)frequently confronted part counterfeiters -- in the US. The practice places parts of inferior quality in the marketplace jeopordizing the manufacturer's reputation and financial stability. In the realm of collectibles (as in this case)the worthless copies not only dupe buyers but they damage the ability of rightful owners to recognize the value of their investment. Collectors have value in their stock and the kit maker values potential in reaching a new product market. [It would be nice if we could CREATE new carsides and parts by simply pushing a button, but there is a lot of skill and investment that must come first--and then the reward-- hopefully including financial]. These ebay copies are neither collectibles nor suited as new products for current market
              expectations. Support of such pirates by individual buyers is a detriment to the MODEL RAILROADING (AND COLLECTING) hobby. When a portion of a potential market is "skimmed cream" the rightful owner is left with skimmed milk--at best. Nearly all Red Ball printed card carsides were for wood type cars and the boards were defined by indentations a color copy machine cannot reproduce. Exceptions have been GN plywood boxcars, tank car and semi trailer wrappers, a select group of printed MODEL RAILROADER printed sides purchased from Kalmbach by Howell Day, and embossed "steel side cars" with rivets etc. Some pre war Challenger passenger cars and exclusive run plastic Kurtz Kraft kits for Howell Day would be be further exceptions. Later Red Ball silk screened and pad printed wood sides utilized scribed wood. Red Ball card sides were sold as "QuicKits" in the late 1970s when Red Ball turned to wood sides.

              This hobby has historically been plagued with "copiers." Since we are all duplicating prototype trains perhaps that should be expected. For years a leading magazine carried an ad from an individual selling copies of kit instructions with plans well suited to scratch building. (And another ad "borrowing" them). When I printed our Hometown kit plans on colored paper earlier copiers could not process, the editors criticized-- until I led them to that ad in their own magazine. I appreciate the "watchdog's" call today, and others over the years as well. Several years ago one fellow advised me there was a plastic copy of the Red Ball 50 foot PRR DC flat car and compared the merits of the kits. In THAT case I had to gently tell him, "yes, we make both kits using the same molds". We would all be well served if this attitude could be fostered and more widespread.

              In today's particular case it appears the seller is in direct violation of copyright laws protecting the NMRA sides and further action shou;d be expected. It appears estorebook has shrewdly (or accidentally) sidestepped SOME legal protectionS of Red Ball's owners using a technicality I will not reveal. Red Ball car side art is now owned by LaBelle Woodworking of Cheyenne, WY. Their reputation for quality products is well known and future releases should be well worth the wait. Protection of their investment should be in the best interests of all model railroaders -- except the pirates.

              Merle Rice
              Producer of Red Ball 1975-2009
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14278 From: Nelson B Date: 6/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              Ray & Kurt,

              Here is a tutorial by Darth Santa Fe about improving open frame motors with neodymiums, including the old Athearn motors.

              http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/120264/1798385.aspx#1798385

              He recommends KJ Mmagnetics, but I tend to order from eBay.

              http://tinyurl.com/2c77u55

              The most difficult job was finding a replacement for an old American Flyer HO motor with a disc magnet, because they are diametrically polarized (the poles along the edges), but almost all of the disc magnets for sale have the poles on the faces. The original is 9/16" dia.x 1/4" thick, and I finally found an eBay dealer who had 1/2" x 1/8", so I had to stack two of them. That was no easy task because they have to be oriented so their poles are N-N, S-S, otherwise they cancel each other out. After getting them oriented inside the motor, I CA'ed them in place, and even though there's a 1/16" gap between them and the pole pieces, the motor is still stronger and slower than it was with the original magnet.

              This is the guy I ordered from, and he had very good customer service. I received a few magnets with defective plating, and he sent me an envelope with far more replacements than I needed, free of charge.

              http://www.emovendo.net/

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Nelson,
              >  Let me know how the new magnets work out in your early version Athearn Pacific.
              >  I have one with the rear geared drivers that I want to improve without it turning into a major remotor/regear project.
              > --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Nelson B <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Nelson B <greenbrier614@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rubber bands
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, June 6, 2010, 3:31 AM
              >
              >
              > Kurt,
              >
              > My Pacific is the plastic drivered version, but I haven't had any problems with electrical pickup. I was surprised at how well the tender pickup works, because there is no jerkiness or headlight flicker, but the unit I bought was very clean with no oxidation. The only problem is the lack of torque in the original motor, so I'll probably replace the original magnet with a high powered neodymium one of these days. They always gives older open frames a boost in power and lower current draw, and it's much easier than remotoring, which isn't an option anyway if I can't remove the worm.
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "bluenosedviking" <bluenosedviking@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Nelson,
              > >
              > > Having looked at the list of motors I've concluded that none of them fit without a lot of excruciating surgery.  Also at this time I can't afford the NWSL motor.  That notwithstanding I don't think we have to live with poor performance which I think is due to inconsistent/intermittent contact problems in the chain from track to motor.
              > >
              > > I can tell you what I have done so far:
              > > -hard wire the motor and scrap the contact strip under the boiler.
              > > -on the tender replace all wheels and install pickup wipers similar to that on diesels
              > >
              > > The locomotive with plastic drivers presented a further problem in that the number of contact wheels was too few and the wheelspan was too short to clear a double 90 crossing behind my WRJ depot.  I therefore fitted metal wheels and pickups on the leading and trailing trucks.
              > >
              > > With a good quality controller I can get the locomotives to run slowly and smoothly without the frustrating jerkiness that kept them in storage for decades.  With no load the locomotives drew 0.3A and while hauling seven heavyweights it was 0.4A.
              > >
              > > Having said that I'm still looking for a reasonably priced replacement motor.
              > >
              > > Kurt
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14279 From: Nelson B Date: 6/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific & Neodymium Magnets (was rubber bands)
              One other note -- If you buy any of these high powered magnets, keep them away from any of your open frame motors that run fine, or you intend to keep original, because they are so powerful that they can short out the old magnet. That's how my AF motor ended up weak... I stuck a stack of rectangular neodymiums to the back of it as a test, and after that it barely had enough power to spin on it's own.

              Lesson learned the hard way! Doh! :p

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson B" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ray & Kurt,
              >
              > Here is a tutorial by Darth Santa Fe about improving open frame motors with neodymiums, including the old Athearn motors.
              >
              > http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/120264/1798385.aspx#1798385
              >
              > He recommends KJ Mmagnetics, but I tend to order from eBay.
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/2c77u55
              >
              > The most difficult job was finding a replacement for an old American Flyer HO motor with a disc magnet, because they are diametrically polarized (the poles along the edges), but almost all of the disc magnets for sale have the poles on the faces. The original is 9/16" dia.x 1/4" thick, and I finally found an eBay dealer who had 1/2" x 1/8", so I had to stack two of them. That was no easy task because they have to be oriented so their poles are N-N, S-S, otherwise they cancel each other out. After getting them oriented inside the motor, I CA'ed them in place, and even though there's a 1/16" gap between them and the pole pieces, the motor is still stronger and slower than it was with the original magnet.
              >
              > This is the guy I ordered from, and he had very good customer service. I received a few magnets with defective plating, and he sent me an envelope with far more replacements than I needed, free of charge.
              >
              > http://www.emovendo.net/
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Nelson,
              > >  Let me know how the new magnets work out in your early version Athearn Pacific.
              > >  I have one with the rear geared drivers that I want to improve without it turning into a major remotor/regear project.
              > > --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Nelson B <greenbrier614@> wrote:
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14280 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Pirated Carsides
              Hi Merle R.,
              My standing search for one of the car types picked up those pirated car sides just before the library shut down the other day (my PC being repaired so not on line from comforts of home).  Was going to bring them to your attention and LaBelle's today, but glad they were already caught.  Hopefully the NMRA will be able to get the seller booted from eBay besides other actions.  I will file a personal complaint with eBay as well. 
              W. Jay W. 


              From: Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: info@...; news@...; mrrmag@...; bills@...
              Sent: Mon, June 7, 2010 11:51:53 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pirated Carsides

               

              June 7,2010

              This morning I received a report from "an NMRA watchdog" that an ebay seller from California, estorebook, is selling pirated copies of Red Ball and NMRA car sides. Over the years we (and Howell Day)frequently confronted part counterfeiters -- in the US. The practice places parts of inferior quality in the marketplace jeopordizing the manufacturer's reputation and financial stability. In the realm of collectibles (as in this case)the worthless copies not only dupe buyers but they damage the ability of rightful owners to recognize the value of their investment. Collectors have value in their stock and the kit maker values potential in reaching a new product market. [It would be nice if we could CREATE new carsides and parts by simply pushing a button, but there is a lot of skill and investment that must come first--and then the reward-- hopefully including financial]. These ebay copies are neither collectibles nor suited as new products for current market
              expectations. Support of such pirates by individual buyers is a detriment to the MODEL RAILROADING (AND COLLECTING) hobby. When a portion of a potential market is "skimmed cream" the rightful owner is left with skimmed milk--at best. Nearly all Red Ball printed card carsides were for wood type cars and the boards were defined by indentations a color copy machine cannot reproduce. Exceptions have been GN plywood boxcars, tank car and semi trailer wrappers, a select group of printed MODEL RAILROADER printed sides purchased from Kalmbach by Howell Day, and embossed "steel side cars" with rivets etc. Some pre war Challenger passenger cars and exclusive run plastic Kurtz Kraft kits for Howell Day would be be further exceptions. Later Red Ball silk screened and pad printed wood sides utilized scribed wood. Red Ball card sides were sold as "QuicKits" in the late 1970s when Red Ball turned to wood sides.

              This hobby has historically been plagued with "copiers." Since we are all duplicating prototype trains perhaps that should be expected. For years a leading magazine carried an ad from an individual selling copies of kit instructions with plans well suited to scratch building. (And another ad "borrowing" them). When I printed our Hometown kit plans on colored paper earlier copiers could not process, the editors criticized-- until I led them to that ad in their own magazine. I appreciate the "watchdog's" call today, and others over the years as well. Several years ago one fellow advised me there was a plastic copy of the Red Ball 50 foot PRR DC flat car and compared the merits of the kits. In THAT case I had to gently tell him, "yes, we make both kits using the same molds". We would all be well served if this attitude could be fostered and more widespread.

              In today's particular case it appears the seller is in direct violation of copyright laws protecting the NMRA sides and further action shou;d be expected. It appears estorebook has shrewdly (or accidentally) sidestepped SOME legal protectionS of Red Ball's owners using a technicality I will not reveal. Red Ball car side art is now owned by LaBelle Woodworking of Cheyenne, WY. Their reputation for quality products is well known and future releases should be well worth the wait. Protection of their investment should be in the best interests of all model railroaders -- except the pirates.

              Merle Rice
              Producer of Red Ball 1975-2009


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14281 From: bob d Date: 6/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Pirated Carsides
              I have lodged a complaint with eBay already. I doubt the weight of one complaint will do much, but if many were received, eBay may take notice.

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
              >
              > June 7,2010
              >
              > This morning I received a report from "an NMRA watchdog" that an ebay seller from California, estorebook, is selling pirated copies of Red Ball and NMRA car sides. Over the years we (and Howell Day)frequently confronted part counterfeiters -- in the US. The practice places parts of inferior quality in the marketplace jeopordizing the manufacturer's reputation and financial stability. In the realm of collectibles (as in this case)the worthless copies not only dupe buyers but they damage the ability of rightful owners to recognize the value of their investment. Collectors have value in their stock and the kit maker values potential in reaching a new product market. [It would be nice if we could CREATE new carsides and parts by simply pushing a button, but there is a lot of skill and investment that must come first--and then the reward-- hopefully including financial]. These ebay copies are neither collectibles nor suited as new products for current market
              > expectations. Support of such pirates by individual buyers is a detriment to the MODEL RAILROADING (AND COLLECTING) hobby. When a portion of a potential market is "skimmed cream" the rightful owner is left with skimmed milk--at best. Nearly all Red Ball printed card carsides were for wood type cars and the boards were defined by indentations a color copy machine cannot reproduce. Exceptions have been GN plywood boxcars, tank car and semi trailer wrappers, a select group of printed MODEL RAILROADER printed sides purchased from Kalmbach by Howell Day, and embossed "steel side cars" with rivets etc. Some pre war Challenger passenger cars and exclusive run plastic Kurtz Kraft kits for Howell Day would be be further exceptions. Later Red Ball silk screened and pad printed wood sides utilized scribed wood. Red Ball card sides were sold as "QuicKits" in the late 1970s when Red Ball turned to wood sides.
              >
              > This hobby has historically been plagued with "copiers." Since we are all duplicating prototype trains perhaps that should be expected. For years a leading magazine carried an ad from an individual selling copies of kit instructions with plans well suited to scratch building. (And another ad "borrowing" them). When I printed our Hometown kit plans on colored paper earlier copiers could not process, the editors criticized-- until I led them to that ad in their own magazine. I appreciate the "watchdog's" call today, and others over the years as well. Several years ago one fellow advised me there was a plastic copy of the Red Ball 50 foot PRR DC flat car and compared the merits of the kits. In THAT case I had to gently tell him, "yes, we make both kits using the same molds". We would all be well served if this attitude could be fostered and more widespread.
              >
              > In today's particular case it appears the seller is in direct violation of copyright laws protecting the NMRA sides and further action shou;d be expected. It appears estorebook has shrewdly (or accidentally) sidestepped SOME legal protectionS of Red Ball's owners using a technicality I will not reveal. Red Ball car side art is now owned by LaBelle Woodworking of Cheyenne, WY. Their reputation for quality products is well known and future releases should be well worth the wait. Protection of their investment should be in the best interests of all model railroaders -- except the pirates.
              >
              > Merle Rice
              > Producer of Red Ball 1975-2009
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14282 From: David J. Starr Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              On 6/7/2010 6:06 PM, Nelson B wrote:
              > Ray& Kurt,
              >
              > Here is a tutorial by Darth Santa Fe about improving open frame motors with neodymiums, including the old Athearn motors.
              >
              > http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/120264/1798385.aspx#1798385
              >
              > He recommends KJ Mmagnetics, but I tend to order from eBay.
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/2c77u55
              >
              > The most difficult job was finding a replacement for an old American Flyer HO motor with a disc magnet, because they are diametrically polarized (the poles along the edges), but almost all of the disc magnets for sale have the poles on the faces. The original is 9/16" dia.x 1/4" thick, and I finally found an eBay dealer who had 1/2" x 1/8", so I had to stack two of them. That was no easy task because they have to be oriented so their poles are N-N, S-S, otherwise they cancel each other out. After getting them oriented inside the motor, I CA'ed them in place, and even though there's a 1/16" gap between them and the pole pieces, the motor is still stronger and slower than it was with the original magnet.
              >
              > This is the guy I ordered from, and he had very good customer service. I received a few magnets with defective plating, and he sent me an envelope with far more replacements than I needed, free of charge.
              >
              > http://www.emovendo.net/
              >
              > Nelson
              >


              I gotta try the supermagnets. My Athearn Pacific is back together,
              sporting a new front end made up from bar stock and brass castings. It
              even runs, haltingly. It is currently upside down on the work bench
              getting home made rail wipers for electrical pickup installed in between
              the drivers.

              --
              David J. Starr

              Blog: http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14283 From: comox11 Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Pirated Carsides
              Last winter i had the pleasure of putting together a car from the NMRA G&D carsides along with Varney lil joe. There are three other cars i want to do the Delta Lines, Heinz and Olde Frothingslosh cars. Imagine how happy i was to see a set of Delta Lines sides. Well when they arrived the were a copy and somehow the real sides from the Bulletin seem better, a little crisper. I must say i felt a little ripped off and now that i hear that these guys are unscrupulous. I hope you guys can get Estorebooks to quit what their doing i for one am not impressed with them or what they sent me. Guy Brooke

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
              >
              > June 7,2010
              >
              > This morning I received a report from "an NMRA watchdog" that an ebay seller from California, estorebook, is selling pirated copies of Red Ball and NMRA car sides. Over the years we (and Howell Day)frequently confronted part counterfeiters -- in the US. The practice places parts of inferior quality in the marketplace jeopordizing the manufacturer's reputation and financial stability. In the realm of collectibles (as in this case)the worthless copies not only dupe buyers but they damage the ability of rightful owners to recognize the value of their investment. Collectors have value in their stock and the kit maker values potential in reaching a new product market. [It would be nice if we could CREATE new carsides and parts by simply pushing a button, but there is a lot of skill and investment that must come first--and then the reward-- hopefully including financial]. These ebay copies are neither collectibles nor suited as new products for current market
              > expectations. Support of such pirates by individual buyers is a detriment to the MODEL RAILROADING (AND COLLECTING) hobby. When a portion of a potential market is "skimmed cream" the rightful owner is left with skimmed milk--at best. Nearly all Red Ball printed card carsides were for wood type cars and the boards were defined by indentations a color copy machine cannot reproduce. Exceptions have been GN plywood boxcars, tank car and semi trailer wrappers, a select group of printed MODEL RAILROADER printed sides purchased from Kalmbach by Howell Day, and embossed "steel side cars" with rivets etc. Some pre war Challenger passenger cars and exclusive run plastic Kurtz Kraft kits for Howell Day would be be further exceptions. Later Red Ball silk screened and pad printed wood sides utilized scribed wood. Red Ball card sides were sold as "QuicKits" in the late 1970s when Red Ball turned to wood sides.
              >
              > This hobby has historically been plagued with "copiers." Since we are all duplicating prototype trains perhaps that should be expected. For years a leading magazine carried an ad from an individual selling copies of kit instructions with plans well suited to scratch building. (And another ad "borrowing" them). When I printed our Hometown kit plans on colored paper earlier copiers could not process, the editors criticized-- until I led them to that ad in their own magazine. I appreciate the "watchdog's" call today, and others over the years as well. Several years ago one fellow advised me there was a plastic copy of the Red Ball 50 foot PRR DC flat car and compared the merits of the kits. In THAT case I had to gently tell him, "yes, we make both kits using the same molds". We would all be well served if this attitude could be fostered and more widespread.
              >
              > In today's particular case it appears the seller is in direct violation of copyright laws protecting the NMRA sides and further action shou;d be expected. It appears estorebook has shrewdly (or accidentally) sidestepped SOME legal protectionS of Red Ball's owners using a technicality I will not reveal. Red Ball car side art is now owned by LaBelle Woodworking of Cheyenne, WY. Their reputation for quality products is well known and future releases should be well worth the wait. Protection of their investment should be in the best interests of all model railroaders -- except the pirates.
              >
              > Merle Rice
              > Producer of Red Ball 1975-2009
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14284 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              Thanks for the liks Nelson.
               Very helpful info.

              --- On Tue, 6/8/10, David J. Starr <dstarrboston@...> wrote:

              From: David J. Starr <dstarrboston@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 7:34 AM

              On 6/7/2010 6:06 PM, Nelson B wrote:
              > Ray&  Kurt,
              >
              > Here is a tutorial by Darth Santa Fe about improving open frame motors with neodymiums, including the old Athearn motors.
              >
              > http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/120264/1798385.aspx#1798385
              >
              > He recommends KJ Mmagnetics, but I tend to order from eBay.
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/2c77u55
              >
              > The most difficult job was finding a replacement for an old American Flyer HO motor with a disc magnet, because they are diametrically polarized (the poles along the edges), but almost all of the disc magnets for sale have the poles on the faces. The original is 9/16" dia.x 1/4" thick, and I finally found an eBay dealer who had 1/2" x 1/8", so I had to stack two of them. That was no easy task because they have to be oriented so their poles are N-N, S-S, otherwise they cancel each other out. After getting them oriented inside the motor, I CA'ed them in place, and even though there's a 1/16" gap between them and the pole pieces, the motor is still stronger and slower than it was with the original magnet.
              >
              > This is the guy I ordered from, and he had very good customer service. I received a few magnets with defective plating, and he sent me an envelope with far more replacements than I needed, free of charge.
              >
              > http://www.emovendo.net/
              >
              > Nelson
              >



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14285 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
                     Would someone please be kind enough to explain the heading of this thread " Athearn Pacific ( WAS RUBBER BANDS ) ???
               
                   Did I miss something as NO early 1960-1965 Athearn Pacifics were sold to the public with the rubber band drive. While in about late 1958 a RBD Pacific was designed by Athearn it performed poorly and was redesigned with a geared motor ( eventually  3 different types sold that all worked poorly ). In fact the first boxes that the Pacifics were sold in to the public were misprinted in two ways. Athearn RBD was called HI-F but the boxes were labeled Hi-Fi which actually started to get used a lot. However Hi-F or Hi-Fi rubber band drive Pacifics never got sold to the public to my knowledge although there are "stories" that some of these RBD pre production models left the Athearn plant under unusual circumstances.
               
                  Sorry if I totally missed emails for some of the conversation.  Thanks beforehand for any response.
               
                                                                                            Jim H
               
                                                              
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:47 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               

              Thanks for the liks Nelson.
               Very helpful info.

              --- On Tue, 6/8/10, David J. Starr <dstarrboston@ roadrunner. com> wrote:

              From: David J. Starr <dstarrboston@ roadrunner. com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 7:34 AM

              On 6/7/2010 6:06 PM, Nelson B wrote:
              > Ray&  Kurt,
              >
              > Here is a tutorial by Darth Santa Fe about improving open frame motors with neodymiums, including the old Athearn motors.
              >
              > http://cs.trains. com/trccs/ forums/p/ 120264/1798385. aspx#1798385
              >
              > He recommends KJ Mmagnetics, but I tend to order from eBay.
              >
              > http://tinyurl. com/2c77u55
              >
              > The most difficult job was finding a replacement for an old American Flyer HO motor with a disc magnet, because they are diametrically polarized (the poles along the edges), but almost all of the disc magnets for sale have the poles on the faces. The original is 9/16" dia.x 1/4" thick, and I finally found an eBay dealer who had 1/2" x 1/8", so I had to stack two of them. That was no easy task because they have to be oriented so their poles are N-N, S-S, otherwise they cancel each other out. After getting them oriented inside the motor, I CA'ed them in place, and even though there's a 1/16" gap between them and the pole pieces, the motor is still stronger and slower than it was with the original magnet.
              >
              > This is the guy I ordered from, and he had very good customer service. I received a few magnets with defective plating, and he sent me an envelope with far more replacements than I needed, free of charge.
              >
              > http://www.emovendo .net/
              >
              > Nelson
              >



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14286 From: Chris B Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              Jim, is it the cadmium?

              Just kidding!!

              Btw, have you seen the ebay listing for a
              "UP die cast engine "HO" brass wheels and frame"?
              Its a PA shell, I think, but the drive system looks like a scaled up old style trolley drive,

              with a vertical motor and worm driving a truck with one axle gear and truck frame side mounted gears driving the other axle.

              The thing that makes me wonder if its a homebuilt drive is the truck frames are two pieces of bent stock joined by a scre at each end.

              If you get a chance, chk it out, tell me what you think?

              Chris B.

              From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
              Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 12:31:06 -0400
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               

                     Would someone please be kind enough to explain the heading of this thread " Athearn Pacific ( WAS RUBBER BANDS ) ???
               
                   Did I miss something as NO early 1960-1965 Athearn Pacifics were sold to the public with the rubber band drive. While in about late 1958 a RBD Pacific was designed by Athearn it performed poorly and was redesigned with a geared motor ( eventually  3 different types sold that all worked poorly ). In fact the first boxes that the Pacifics were sold in to the public were misprinted in two ways. Athearn RBD was called HI-F but the boxes were labeled Hi-Fi which actually started to get used a lot. However Hi-F or Hi-Fi rubber band drive Pacifics never got sold to the public to my knowledge although there are "stories" that some of these RBD pre production models left the Athearn plant under unusual circumstances.
               
                  Sorry if I totally missed emails for some of the conversation.  Thanks beforehand for any response.
               
                                                                                            Jim H
               
                                                              
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:47 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               

              Thanks for the liks Nelson.
               Very helpful info.

              --- On Tue, 6/8/10, David J. Starr <dstarrboston@ roadrunner. com> wrote:

              From: David J. Starr <dstarrboston@ roadrunner. com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 7:34 AM

              On 6/7/2010 6:06 PM, Nelson B wrote:
              > Ray&  Kurt,
              >
              > Here is a tutorial by Darth Santa Fe about improving open frame motors with neodymiums, including the old Athearn motors.
              >
              > http://cs.trains. com/trccs/ forums/p/ 120264/1798385. aspx#1798385
              >
              > He recommends KJ Mmagnetics, but I tend to order from eBay.
              >
              > http://tinyurl. com/2c77u55
              >
              > The most difficult job was finding a replacement for an old American Flyer HO motor with a disc magnet, because they are diametrically polarized (the poles along the edges), but almost all of the disc magnets for sale have the poles on the faces. The original is 9/16" dia.x 1/4" thick, and I finally found an eBay dealer who had 1/2" x 1/8", so I had to stack two of them. That was no easy task because they have to be oriented so their poles are N-N, S-S, otherwise they cancel each other out. After getting them oriented inside the motor, I CA'ed them in place, and even though there's a 1/16" gap between them and the pole pieces, the motor is still stronger and slower than it was with the original magnet.
              >
              > This is the guy I ordered from, and he had very good customer service. I received a few magnets with defective plating, and he sent me an envelope with far more replacements than I needed, free of charge.
              >
              > http://www.emovendo .net/
              >
              > Nelson
              >



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14287 From: greg10562 Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Help ID boxcar
              I have two 40 foot plug door boxcar shells that I bought at a train show and I'd like to find out who made them. Both are one-piece shells with separate roofwalks and ladders in black plastic. One car is silver and lettered for Swift with a red rectangluar Swift logo, reporting marks are SRLX 4226. The other car is reefer orange and lettered for Pacific Fruit Express, reporting marks are PFE 45695. I do not have the floors but a tab fits into a slot on each end. There is no manufacturer mark inside the shell. Maybe AHM or Rivarrossi? Does anybody know? Did Swift or PFE ever own 40 foot plug door boxcars? My original intent was to kitbash into a 50 foot boxcar but I might not do it if these are old or rare. Thanks.
              Greg
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14288 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Hi Chris B,
               
                    I'm sure the Lead and Cadmium might have added to the problem but I have been a couple short of a dozen for a while. 
               
                    Sending some pictures from my camera program which I hope get through. Let me know if you could view. If not I'll send direct.  Hopefully these will answer your questions. The pictures are of my painted brass IMP  / International powered FA . It is Japanese made. You will see all the pictures I sent should match what you see. I didn't take mine apart but it does have the same vertical mounted motor inside.
               
                 I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same item you ask about on eBay. There were brass screwdriver kits and I guess some factory painted. My engine was painted and decaled by me in a fantasy NYC scheme just for the fun of it. This would be one of the engines I used a Krylon gloss enamel spray can of paint on, no primer or undercoat prep and it has lasted almost 25 years. ( And yes the decals have stayed on )
               
                              Jim H
               
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14289 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              Jim, we were discussing sources of rubber bands when someone initiated the subject change and started talking about re-motoring the Athearn Pacific and also messages about new magnets with which to repair the motors.  Look back through the recent messages and find the one with the methods and pictures if you are interested.  It was quite informative.

              Don Staton in VA
              =====================================
              Snipped

              jim heckard wrote:
               

                     Would someone please be kind enough to explain the heading of this thread " Athearn Pacific ( WAS RUBBER BANDS ) ???

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14290 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              I have seen those trucks before.
              I looked at Tenshodo, International, GEM, and usual suspects, can't identify the trucks.
              The odd reporting feature of the shell is the PA eyebrow behind the cab in the grille work.

              I have pictures of PAs with that eyebrow, but have yet to find any version of an FA with it.

              Almost like tha model manufacturer made a PA and just cut it down for an FA.

              Dave


              > Sending some pictures from my camera program which I hope get through. Let me know if you could view. If not I'll send direct. Hopefully these will answer your questions. The pictures are of my painted brass IMP / International powered FA . It is Japanese made. You will see all the pictures I sent should match what you see. I didn't take mine apart but it does have the same vertical mounted motor inside.
              >
              > I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same item you ask about on eBay. There were brass screwdriver kits and I guess some factory painted. My engine was painted and decaled by me in a fantasy NYC scheme just for the fun of it. This would be one of the engines I used a Krylon gloss enamel spray can of paint on, no primer or undercoat prep and it has lasted almost 25 years. ( And yes the decals have stayed on )
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14291 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              trainsnwrcs wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > I have seen those trucks before.
              > I looked at Tenshodo, International, GEM, and usual suspects, can't
              > identify the trucks.
              > The odd reporting feature of the shell is the PA eyebrow behind the
              > cab in the grille work.
              >
              > I have pictures of PAs with that eyebrow, but have yet to find any
              > version of an FA with it.
              >
              The first series FAs had this feature. Apparently the GM&O received all
              of them.

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14292 From: Nelson B Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              You're welcome, Ray. David, I remember your Pacific project from the MR forum.

              In case anyone's interested, I took some photos of the Flyer motor conversion.

              http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/American%20Flyer%20HO/AFMotorWithOriginalMagnet.jpg

              http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/American%20Flyer%20HO/AFMotorWithNeodymiumDiscMagnets.jpg

              The second photo shows the new magnets in place. Because they're repelling each other, one is stuck to the top pole piece, and the other is stuck to the bottom. Without their attraction to the steel frame pieces, you couldn't hold them together. Also, the motor shaft was designed to rest on the original magnet, so I have a piece of phosphor bronze between the front magnet and the oil pad, because otherwise the shaft would drill into them, being much softer than the old alnico magnets.

              The motor has noticeably better torque and lower current draw, so don't hesitate to try this if you have a dead round magnet motor. Here is the link to the magnets I used (or contact me -- I have a lot left over, lol):

              http://www.emovendo.net/magnet/12x-18-disc.html

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for the liks Nelson.
              >  Very helpful info.
              >
              > --- On Tue, 6/8/10, David J. Starr <dstarrboston@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: David J. Starr <dstarrboston@...>
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2010, 7:34 AM
              >
              >
              > On 6/7/2010 6:06 PM, Nelson B wrote:
              > > Ray&  Kurt,
              > >
              > > Here is a tutorial by Darth Santa Fe about improving open frame motors with neodymiums, including the old Athearn motors.
              > >
              > > http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/120264/1798385.aspx#1798385
              > >
              > > He recommends KJ Mmagnetics, but I tend to order from eBay.
              > >
              > > http://tinyurl.com/2c77u55
              > >
              > > The most difficult job was finding a replacement for an old American Flyer HO motor with a disc magnet, because they are diametrically polarized (the poles along the edges), but almost all of the disc magnets for sale have the poles on the faces. The original is 9/16" dia.x 1/4" thick, and I finally found an eBay dealer who had 1/2" x 1/8", so I had to stack two of them. That was no easy task because they have to be oriented so their poles are N-N, S-S, otherwise they cancel each other out. After getting them oriented inside the motor, I CA'ed them in place, and even though there's a 1/16" gap between them and the pole pieces, the motor is still stronger and slower than it was with the original magnet.
              > >
              > > This is the guy I ordered from, and he had very good customer service. I received a few magnets with defective plating, and he sent me an envelope with far more replacements than I needed, free of charge.
              > >
              > > http://www.emovendo.net/
              > >
              > > Nelson
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14293 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              So, you're saying an FA in NYC colours with this feature is wrong?
              I have searched and searched, cannot find any photos of any FA with that feature, including any Gulf, Mobile and Ohio units.
              Got a picture or link?

              Dave


              > The first series FAs had this feature. Apparently the GM&O received all
              > of them.
              >
              > Gerold
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14294 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              I asked a font of knowledge (one outside of the august group), and he said it certainly appeared to be early International, which is where I looked first.
              He also said the truck design is reminiscent of Suydam, but that he was not aware of Suydam building any diseasemals other than gas-electrics.
              If you look at this page from the HOSeeker International page, you will see the same type of power truck, but field-wound motor and hand reverse:

              http://hoseeker.net/kawai/kawaijapaneseelectriclocodiagram.jpg

              I have yet to find any reference in the HOSeeker data on an International FA.
              Dave


              > Sending some pictures from my camera program which I hope get through. Let me know if you could view. If not I'll send direct. Hopefully these will answer your questions. The pictures are of my painted brass IMP / International powered FA . It is Japanese made. You will see all the pictures I sent should match what you see. I didn't take mine apart but it does have the same vertical mounted motor inside.
              >
              > I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same item you ask about on eBay. There were brass screwdriver kits and I guess some factory painted. My engine was painted and decaled by me in a fantasy NYC scheme just for the fun of it. This would be one of the engines I used a Krylon gloss enamel spray can of paint on, no primer or undercoat prep and it has lasted almost 25 years. ( And yes the decals have stayed on )
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14295 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              trainsnwrcs wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > So, you're saying an FA in NYC colours with this feature is wrong?
              > I have searched and searched, cannot find any photos of any FA with
              > that feature, including any Gulf, Mobile and Ohio units.
              > Got a picture or link?
              >
              Will send off list

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14296 From: Chris B Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              I do have an unbuilt INTL brass South Shore steeple cab kit with a similar design drive train and geared truck design.
              CB
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 20:58:02 -0000
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              I asked a font of knowledge (one outside of the august group), and he said it certainly appeared to be early International, which is where I looked first.
              He also said the truck design is reminiscent of Suydam, but that he was not aware of Suydam building any diseasemals other than gas-electrics.
              If you look at this page from the HOSeeker International page, you will see the same type of power truck, but field-wound motor and hand reverse:

              http://hoseeker.net/kawai/kawaijapaneseelectriclocodiagram.jpg

              I have yet to find any reference in the HOSeeker data on an International FA.
              Dave

              > Sending some pictures from my camera program which I hope get through. Let me know if you could view. If not I'll send direct. Hopefully these will answer your questions. The pictures are of my painted brass IMP / International powered FA . It is Japanese made. You will see all the pictures I sent should match what you see. I didn't take mine apart but it does have the same vertical mounted motor inside.
              >
              > I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same item you ask about on eBay. There were brass screwdriver kits and I guess some factory painted. My engine was painted and decaled by me in a fantasy NYC scheme just for the fun of it. This would be one of the engines I used a Krylon gloss enamel spray can of paint on, no primer or undercoat prep and it has lasted almost 25 years. ( And yes the decals have stayed on )
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14297 From: Chris B Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Sorry, wrote INTL, meant IMP.
              From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 21:46:55 +0000
              To: Vint Ho<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              I do have an unbuilt INTL brass South Shore steeple cab kit with a similar design drive train and geared truck design.
              CB


              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
              Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 20:58:02 -0000
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              I asked a font of knowledge (one outside of the august group), and he said it certainly appeared to be early International, which is where I looked first.
              He also said the truck design is reminiscent of Suydam, but that he was not aware of Suydam building any diseasemals other than gas-electrics.
              If you look at this page from the HOSeeker International page, you will see the same type of power truck, but field-wound motor and hand reverse:

              http://hoseeker. net/kawai/ kawaijapaneseele ctriclocodiagram .jpg

              I have yet to find any reference in the HOSeeker data on an International FA.
              Dave

              > Sending some pictures from my camera program which I hope get through. Let me know if you could view. If not I'll send direct. Hopefully these will answer your questions. The pictures are of my painted brass IMP / International powered FA . It is Japanese made. You will see all the pictures I sent should match what you see. I didn't take mine apart but it does have the same vertical mounted motor inside.
              >
              > I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same item you ask about on eBay. There were brass screwdriver kits and I guess some factory painted. My engine was painted and decaled by me in a fantasy NYC scheme just for the fun of it. This would be one of the engines I used a Krylon gloss enamel spray can of paint on, no primer or undercoat prep and it has lasted almost 25 years. ( And yes the decals have stayed on )
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14298 From: Chris B Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Sorry, wrote INTL, meant IMP.
              From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 21:46:55 +0000
              To: Vint Ho<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              I do have an unbuilt INTL brass South Shore steeple cab kit with a similar design drive train and geared truck design.
              CB


              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
              Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 20:58:02 -0000
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              I asked a font of knowledge (one outside of the august group), and he said it certainly appeared to be early International, which is where I looked first.
              He also said the truck design is reminiscent of Suydam, but that he was not aware of Suydam building any diseasemals other than gas-electrics.
              If you look at this page from the HOSeeker International page, you will see the same type of power truck, but field-wound motor and hand reverse:

              http://hoseeker. net/kawai/ kawaijapaneseele ctriclocodiagram .jpg

              I have yet to find any reference in the HOSeeker data on an International FA.
              Dave

              > Sending some pictures from my camera program which I hope get through. Let me know if you could view. If not I'll send direct. Hopefully these will answer your questions. The pictures are of my painted brass IMP / International powered FA . It is Japanese made. You will see all the pictures I sent should match what you see. I didn't take mine apart but it does have the same vertical mounted motor inside.
              >
              > I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same item you ask about on eBay. There were brass screwdriver kits and I guess some factory painted. My engine was painted and decaled by me in a fantasy NYC scheme just for the fun of it. This would be one of the engines I used a Krylon gloss enamel spray can of paint on, no primer or undercoat prep and it has lasted almost 25 years. ( And yes the decals have stayed on )
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14299 From: Russ Shiel Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Help ID boxcar
              Greg...can't help with the PFE, but the Swift I have in two versions. These are reefers, not boxcars...Mantua, silver SRLX4226 built 01-37, black lettering, ref logo,  and a ?later run I have entered as Tyco (Hong Kong) same reporting marks.
              Chrs, Russ

               

              From: greg10562 <greg10562@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, 9 June, 2010 2:50:14 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Help ID boxcar

               

              I have two 40 foot plug door boxcar shells that I bought at a train show and I'd like to find out who made them.


               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14300 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco [4 Attachments]

              Jim,

              The four photos came through fine.

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 1:24 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown FA Brass Alco [4 Attachments]

               

               

              Hi Chris B,

               

                    I'm sure the Lead and Cadmium might have added to the problem but I have been a couple short of a dozen for a while. 

               

                    Sending some pictures from my camera program which I hope get through. Let me know if you could view. If not I'll send direct.  Hopefully these will answer your questions. The pictures are of my painted brass IMP  / International powered FA . It is Japanese made. You will see all the pictures I sent should match what you see. I didn't take mine apart but it does have the same vertical mounted motor inside.

               

                 I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same item you ask about on eBay. There were brass screwdriver kits and I guess some factory painted. My engine was painted and decaled by me in a fantasy NYC scheme just for the fun of it. This would be one of the engines I used a Krylon gloss enamel spray can of paint on, no primer or undercoat prep and it has lasted almost 25 years. ( And yes the decals have stayed on )

               

                              Jim H

               

               

               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14301 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Hi Chuck,
               
                  This is the part that makes me hate computers. What I sent today worked exactly the way it use to for the longest time and I made no changes. Yet for a couple of weeks it wouldn't do it. Go figure.
               
                                                              Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 6:23 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              Jim,

              The four photos came through fine.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104


              From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 1:24 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown FA Brass Alco [4 Attachments]

               

              Hi Chris B,

                    I'm sure the Lead and Cadmium might have added to the problem but I have been a couple short of a dozen for a while. 

                    Sending some pictures from my camera program which I hope get through. Let me know if you could view. If not I'll send direct.  Hopefully these will answer your questions. The pictures are of my painted brass IMP  / International powered FA . It is Japanese made. You will see all the pictures I sent should match what you see. I didn't take mine apart but it does have the same vertical mounted motor inside.

                 I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same item you ask about on eBay. There were brass screwdriver kits and I guess some factory painted. My engine was painted and decaled by me in a fantasy NYC scheme just for the fun of it. This would be one of the engines I used a Krylon gloss enamel spray can of paint on, no primer or undercoat prep and it has lasted almost 25 years. ( And yes the decals have stayed on )

                              Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14302 From: jim heckard Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Hi Chris B,
               
                       IMP ( International Model Products) and International are one and the same to me. Were  the pictures I sent to you the same item?            
               
                                                        Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              To: Vint Ho
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 6:02 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              Sorry, wrote INTL, meant IMP.


              From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
              Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 21:46:55 +0000
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              I do have an unbuilt INTL brass South Shore steeple cab kit with a similar design drive train and geared truck design.
              CB


              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
              Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 20:58:02 -0000
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              I asked a font of knowledge (one outside of the august group), and he said it certainly appeared to be early International, which is where I looked first.
              He also said the truck design is reminiscent of Suydam, but that he was not aware of Suydam building any diseasemals other than gas-electrics.
              If you look at this page from the HOSeeker International page, you will see the same type of power truck, but field-wound motor and hand reverse:

              http://hoseeker. net/kawai/ kawaijapaneseele ctriclocodiagram .jpg

              I have yet to find any reference in the HOSeeker data on an International FA.
              Dave

              > Sending some pictures from my camera program which I hope get through. Let me know if you could view. If not I'll send direct. Hopefully these will answer your questions. The pictures are of my painted brass IMP / International powered FA . It is Japanese made. You will see all the pictures I sent should match what you see. I didn't take mine apart but it does have the same vertical mounted motor inside.
              >
              > I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same item you ask about on eBay. There were brass screwdriver kits and I guess some factory painted. My engine was painted and decaled by me in a fantasy NYC scheme just for the fun of it. This would be one of the engines I used a Krylon gloss enamel spray can of paint on, no primer or undercoat prep and it has lasted almost 25 years. ( And yes the decals have stayed on )
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14303 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 2:52 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco


              >
              > I have seen those trucks before.
              > I looked at Tenshodo, International, GEM, and usual suspects, can't
              > identify the trucks.
              > The odd reporting feature of the shell is the PA eyebrow behind the cab in
              > the grille work.
              >
              > I have pictures of PAs with that eyebrow, but have yet to find any version
              > of an FA with it.
              >
              > Almost like tha model manufacturer made a PA and just cut it down for an
              > FA.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              The very first FA-1's built for the G&MO in 1945 had the curved trim piece
              like the PA's (source: Kalmbach's 2nd Diesel Spotter's Guide, page 268)

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14304 From: Don Dellmann Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 3:23 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco


              >
              > So, you're saying an FA in NYC colours with this feature is wrong?
              > I have searched and searched, cannot find any photos of any FA with that
              > feature, including any Gulf, Mobile and Ohio units.
              > Got a picture or link?
              >
              > Dave

              "2nd. Diesel Spotter's Guide", Kalmbach 1973, page 268.

              If you need it I can scan the page.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14305 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Let me try to find my diseasemal spotter's guides and see.
              Dave

              >
              > "2nd. Diesel Spotter's Guide", Kalmbach 1973, page 268.
              >
              > If you need it I can scan the page.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14306 From: Chris B Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Looks the same to me!
              From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
              Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:34:27 -0400
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              Hi Chris B,
               
                       IMP ( International Model Products) and International are one and the same to me. Were  the pictures I sent to you the same item?            
               
                                                        Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              To: Vint Ho
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 6:02 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              Sorry, wrote INTL, meant IMP.


              From: "Chris B" <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
              Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 21:46:55 +0000
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              I do have an unbuilt INTL brass South Shore steeple cab kit with a similar design drive train and geared truck design.
              CB


              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@ mindspring. com>
              Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 20:58:02 -0000
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              I asked a font of knowledge (one outside of the august group), and he said it certainly appeared to be early International, which is where I looked first.
              He also said the truck design is reminiscent of Suydam, but that he was not aware of Suydam building any diseasemals other than gas-electrics.
              If you look at this page from the HOSeeker International page, you will see the same type of power truck, but field-wound motor and hand reverse:

              http://hoseeker. net/kawai/ kawaijapaneseele ctriclocodiagram .jpg

              I have yet to find any reference in the HOSeeker data on an International FA.
              Dave

              > Sending some pictures from my camera program which I hope get through. Let me know if you could view. If not I'll send direct. Hopefully these will answer your questions. The pictures are of my painted brass IMP / International powered FA . It is Japanese made. You will see all the pictures I sent should match what you see. I didn't take mine apart but it does have the same vertical mounted motor inside.
              >
              > I'm pretty sure it is exactly the same item you ask about on eBay. There were brass screwdriver kits and I guess some factory painted. My engine was painted and decaled by me in a fantasy NYC scheme just for the fun of it. This would be one of the engines I used a Krylon gloss enamel spray can of paint on, no primer or undercoat prep and it has lasted almost 25 years. ( And yes the decals have stayed on )
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14307 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Finally found it.
              My "Contemporary Guide 1972 and later" was easy......the other more difficult.
              Might be nice to see a photo of the nose, to see if it has the lower, smaller headlight of the early GM&O units, or if it's a combination.

              >
              > "2nd. Diesel Spotter's Guide", Kalmbach 1973, page 268.
              >
              > If you need it I can scan the page.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14308 From: Nelson B Date: 6/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              I think Jim's just anxious to get his hands on one of the Athearn hi-fi 4-6-2 prototypes. ;-) Now that would be a conversation piece.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
              >
              > /Jim, we were discussing sources of rubber bands when someone initiated
              > the subject change and started talking about re-motoring the Athearn
              > Pacific and also messages about new magnets with which to repair the
              > motors. Look back through the recent messages and find the one with the
              > methods and pictures if you are interested. It was quite informative.
              >
              > Don Staton in VA
              > =====================================
              > Snipped
              > /
              > jim heckard wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Would someone please be kind enough to explain the heading of
              > > this thread " Athearn Pacific ( WAS RUBBER BANDS ) ???
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14309 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Attachments :
              trainsnwrcs wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Finally found it.
              > My "Contemporary Guide 1972 and later" was easy......the other more
              > difficult.
              > Might be nice to see a photo of the nose, to see if it has the lower,
              > smaller headlight of the early GM&O units, or if it's a combination.
              >
              Have several pictures, all with low headlight. As the message I sent off
              list was blocked by paranoid mindspring.com , I attach one here now.
              Source, Diesel Bulders Vol.II by John F.Kirkland.

              Gerold
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14310 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              trainsnwrcs wrote:
              >
              >
              > I asked a font of knowledge (one outside of the august group), and he
              > said it certainly appeared to be early International, which is where I
              > looked first.
              > He also said the truck design is reminiscent of Suydam, but that he
              > was not aware of Suydam building any diseasemals other than gas-electrics.
              > If you look at this page from the HOSeeker International page, you
              > will see the same type of power truck, but field-wound motor and hand
              > reverse:
              >
              Never have seen a Suydam with this style of truck, most have spring belt
              drive, some tower drive. However the drive this FA has was the
              standard design for early Japanese streetcars, interurbans and
              electrics, like Kawai and International .

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14311 From: jim heckard Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
                    ABSOLUTELY
               
                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson B
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:46 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               

              I think Jim's just anxious to get his hands on one of the Athearn hi-fi 4-6-2 prototypes. ;-) Now that would be a conversation piece.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
              >
              > /Jim, we were discussing sources of rubber bands when someone initiated
              > the subject change and started talking about re-motoring the Athearn
              > Pacific and also messages about new magnets with which to repair the
              > motors. Look back through the recent messages and find the one with the
              > methods and pictures if you are interested. It was quite informative.
              >
              > Don Staton in VA
              > =====================================
              > Snipped
              > /
              > jim heckard wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Would someone please be kind enough to explain the heading of
              > > this thread " Athearn Pacific ( WAS RUBBER BANDS ) ???

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14312 From: greg10562 Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Help ID boxcar
              Thanks. Mantua or Tyco makes sense, an AHM underframe does not fit the shell. As far as a reefer, there are no ice hatches or mechanical unit grills on these cars.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Russ Shiel <rshiel01@...> wrote:
              >
              > Greg...can't help with the PFE, but the Swift I have in two versions. These are reefers, not boxcars...Mantua, silver SRLX4226 built 01-37, black lettering, ref logo,  and a ?later run I have entered as Tyco (Hong Kong) same reporting marks.
              > Chrs, Russ
              >
              >  
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: greg10562 <greg10562@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wed, 9 June, 2010 2:50:14 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Help ID boxcar
              >
              >  
              > I have two 40 foot plug door boxcar shells that I bought at a train show and I'd like to find out who made them.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14313 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Very odd. Mindspring/Earthstink sends a lot of stuff to the spam folders in webmail, which I check hourly. First I've had report of one being outright blocked.
              But, you never know.

              The photos were of the model, to see if it had the affectation aft of the cab AND low, small headlight.
              The 4 photos posted are non-inclusive of the nose.


              > >
              > Have several pictures, all with low headlight. As the message I sent off
              > list was blocked by paranoid mindspring.com , I attach one here now.
              > Source, Diesel Bulders Vol.II by John F.Kirkland.
              >
              > Gerold
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14314 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              Jim,
               I am looking for one too.
               I am even thinking of building one from Athearn parts that would have been available at the time. I have a few theories of how it may have been constructed.
               I have a tender but have to locate another first run (geared rear driver) locomotive.

              --- On Wed, 6/9/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 4:15 AM



                    ABSOLUTELY
               
                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson B
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:46 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               
              I think Jim's just anxious to get his hands on one of the Athearn hi-fi 4-6-2 prototypes. ;-) Now that would be a conversation piece.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
              >
              > /Jim, we were discussing sources of rubber bands when someone initiated
              > the subject change and started talking about re-motoring the Athearn
              > Pacific and also messages about new magnets with which to repair the
              > motors. Look back through the recent messages and find the one with the
              > methods and pictures if you are interested. It was quite informative.
              >
              > Don Staton in VA
              > =====================================
              > Snipped
              > /
              > jim heckard wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Would someone please be kind enough to explain the heading of
              > > this thread " Athearn Pacific ( WAS RUBBER BANDS ) ???




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14315 From: jim heckard Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              Hi Ray,
               
                       Go for it and I wish you luck. However I have to ask exactly what you plan.  
              ]
                 Do you intend to make it tender rubber band drive  ( utilizing the thick wheel set axles ) with motor mounted there also and with the engine along for the ride ?    or   Will you mount motor in cab and make it RBD to the drivers  with electrical pickup in the tender.?
               
                 I honestly have never been able to pin down, other then by story, just how Athearn had engineered that original RBD prototype Pacific.
               
                                         Jim H
               
                 
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:25 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               

              Jim,
               I am looking for one too.
               I am even thinking of building one from Athearn parts that would have been available at the time. I have a few theories of how it may have been constructed.
               I have a tender but have to locate another first run (geared rear driver) locomotive.

              --- On Wed, 6/9/10, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 4:15 AM



                    ABSOLUTELY
               
                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson B
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:46 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               
              I think Jim's just anxious to get his hands on one of the Athearn hi-fi 4-6-2 prototypes. ;-) Now that would be a conversation piece.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
              >
              > /Jim, we were discussing sources of rubber bands when someone initiated
              > the subject change and started talking about re-motoring the Athearn
              > Pacific and also messages about new magnets with which to repair the
              > motors. Look back through the recent messages and find the one with the
              > methods and pictures if you are interested. It was quite informative.
              >
              > Don Staton in VA
              > ============ ========= ========= =======
              > Snipped
              > /
              > jim heckard wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Would someone please be kind enough to explain the heading of
              > > this thread " Athearn Pacific ( WAS RUBBER BANDS ) ???




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14316 From: Chris B Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Some Suydam do have a form of such drives, not the vertical motor component, but the multiple gears mounted on one side of the truck frame component;

              on HOSeeker's auction site right now is a PE414 with a single driven truck of this type,

              I've also seen them on the smaller type of Suydam steeple cab engines.

              Chris B.

              From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
              Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:06:51 +0200
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

               

              trainsnwrcs wrote:

              >
              >
              > I asked a font of knowledge (one outside of the august group), and he
              > said it certainly appeared to be early International, which is where I
              > looked first.
              > He also said the truck design is reminiscent of Suydam, but that he
              > was not aware of Suydam building any diseasemals other than gas-electrics.
              > If you look at this page from the HOSeeker International page, you
              > will see the same type of power truck, but field-wound motor and hand
              > reverse:
              >
              Never have seen a Suydam with this style of truck, most have spring belt
              drive, some tower drive. However the drive this FA has was the
              standard design for early Japanese streetcars, interurbans and
              electrics, like Kawai and International .

              Gerold

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14317 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Help ID boxcar
              Hi Greg -

              You have two AHM 40' insulated plug-door box cars which were sold in the 1970's.  At one time they were made by Roco (I believe the ones with black separate ladders and end-tabs were).  In fact, I have one decorated for Armour, ARLX 1754, which is in it's original Roco box. I'm sure that both Swift and PFE had Class RB insulated PD box cars (often referred to as reefers), but I have never seen a picture of one like the Roco car.  It is actually copied from a Pullman Standard prototype.

              Some additional trivia:  There is an earlier version of this car imported by AHM - I have been told is was made by Liliput.  It has cast on ladders and no end tabs.  The bottoms are similar but read AHM - Austria, whereas the Roco cars have a small Roco diamond before the Austria.  Con-Cor obtained the dies for the cast-on ladder version and made them in the U.S., as they also did with PS-1 box cars and PS-2 3-bay covered hoppers.

              Reed


              ---- Original Message ----
              From: greg10562 <greg10562@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, Jun 8, 2010 1:20 pm
              Subject: [vintageHO] Help ID boxcar

               
              I have two 40 foot plug door boxcar shells that I bought at a train show and I'd like to find out who made them. Both are one-piece shells with separate roofwalks and ladders in black plastic. One car is silver and lettered for Swift with a red rectangluar Swift logo, reporting marks are SRLX 4226. The other car is reefer orange and lettered for Pacific Fruit Express, reporting marks are PFE 45695. I do not have the floors but a tab fits into a slot on each end. There is no manufacturer mark inside the shell. Maybe AHM or Rivarrossi? Does anybody know? Did Swift or PFE ever own 40 foot plug door boxcars? My original intent was to kitbash into a 50 foot boxcar but I might not do it if these are old or rare. Thanks.
              Greg

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14318 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Chris,
              >
              >
              > Some Suydam do have a form of such drives, not the vertical motor
              > component, but the multiple gears mounted on one side of the truck
              > frame component;
              >
              You are correct. The Electra, the Old Maude ( SN Flat Motor) , the
              Huntington standard , the 414 had the drive you mention. It was als o
              used by all ? the LARY cars marketed by Soho; this is why I forgot about
              Suydam ... I always assoziate it with Soho.

              However, the gears are the only thing this drives have in common.... the
              vertical drive as discussed earlier is a real vintage , crude device
              while the Suydam/ Soho was considered a mayor breakthrough as it allowed
              for the first time an underfloor drive which made possible motorized
              flatbeds and small streetcars with full interior.
              BTW, the plastic gears pressed on the axles of those cars are known to
              break often .... requiring a mayor rebuild.

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14319 From: Chris B Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco
              Gerold,
              You're right for sure about the vert drive, though it did show up all over, I have a 1st gen Athearn RDC drive with multi geared truck and vert motor drive.

              maybe you can help me I'd two Samhsongsa (sp) powered "low profile" brass traction frames I recently got on ebay.

              Flat dual shaft motor mounted in the floor between two powered trucks with plastic universals;

              The shafts carry worms that mate with wide gears on each inboard axle;

              The axle has another gear mounted outside the truck frame that drives a multiple gear train that drives the other axle.

              All gears brass, very small dia wheels, short frame length overall, and coined brass sideframes I haven't ID'd yet.

              Samshongsha on bottom of motor cover.

              Any hints?
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
              Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 20:57:10
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unknown FA Brass Alco

              Chris,
              >
              >
              > Some Suydam do have a form of such drives, not the vertical motor
              > component, but the multiple gears mounted on one side of the truck
              > frame component;
              >
              You are correct. The Electra, the Old Maude ( SN Flat Motor) , the
              Huntington standard , the 414 had the drive you mention. It was als o
              used by all ? the LARY cars marketed by Soho; this is why I forgot about
              Suydam ... I always assoziate it with Soho.

              However, the gears are the only thing this drives have in common.... the
              vertical drive as discussed earlier is a real vintage , crude device
              while the Suydam/ Soho was considered a mayor breakthrough as it allowed
              for the first time an underfloor drive which made possible motorized
              flatbeds and small streetcars with full interior.
              BTW, the plastic gears pressed on the axles of those cars are known to
              break often .... requiring a mayor rebuild.

              Gerold



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14320 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: trolley drives
              Chris B wrote:
              >
              >
              > Gerold,
              > You're right for sure about the vert drive, though it did show up all
              > over, I have a 1st gen Athearn RDC drive with multi geared truck and
              > vert motor drive.
              >
              > maybe you can help me I'd two Samhsongsa (sp) powered "low profile"
              > brass traction frames I recently got on ebay.
              >
              Chris,
              I think I saw them... considered to bid but passed;have spent already to
              much last month.

              Send me the pictures , on or off list... will check. There isnt much
              choice... not many trolleys built in the Samhongsa era; MTS comes to my
              mind but all the MTS models I know better had Ajin drives. Maybe if I
              see the pictures again.

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14321 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Help ID boxcar
              I'm going to guess here, but I think the PFE car is an Athearn. I have an Athearn with #45698, so guessing another run?
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: greg10562
              Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 1:20 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Help ID boxcar

               

              I have two 40 foot plug door boxcar shells that I bought at a train show and I'd like to find out who made them. Both are one-piece shells with separate roofwalks and ladders in black plastic. One car is silver and lettered for Swift with a red rectangluar Swift logo, reporting marks are SRLX 4226. The other car is reefer orange and lettered for Pacific Fruit Express, reporting marks are PFE 45695. I do not have the floors but a tab fits into a slot on each end. There is no manufacturer mark inside the shell. Maybe AHM or Rivarrossi? Does anybody know? Did Swift or PFE ever own 40 foot plug door boxcars? My original intent was to kitbash into a 50 foot boxcar but I might not do it if these are old or rare. Thanks.
              Greg

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14322 From: toytrain13 Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              Hi guys- I've nearly completed my old Red Ball kit for the 200-ton wrecking crane. I'd like to decal this for a railroad that actually had this model of steam wrecking crane. I've painted my model black, and have bought the Champion Decals wrecking crane set of decals (white), which don't include a railroad name. As yet I can't find a photo of a prototype of this model of crane online, for any railroad. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks- Richard White
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14323 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              I think the CB&Q had some 200 tone wrecking cranes. Found the instruction sheets on HOSeeker, and it does look like a Bucyrus Erie crane.

              Somewhere I have a Morning Sun book of color photos of CB&Q rolling stock. If I still have it (It was getting pretty ratty before I moved, so I may have tossed it), I will check the Redball model against the photos.

              Can't find photos online of CB&Q cranes though, at least not the one I remember being in that book.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Wed, 6/9/10, toytrain13 <toytrain13@...> wrote:

              From: toytrain13 <toytrain13@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 7:15 PM

               

              Hi guys- I've nearly completed my old Red Ball kit for the 200-ton wrecking crane. I'd like to decal this for a railroad that actually had this model of steam wrecking crane. I've painted my model black, and have bought the Champion Decals wrecking crane set of decals (white), which don't include a railroad name. As yet I can't find a photo of a prototype of this model of crane online, for any railroad. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks- Richard White

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14324 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              Nevada Northern. . . .
               
              In a message dated 6/9/2010 8:48:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, computersystemrebuild@... writes:


              I think the CB&Q had some 200 tone wrecking cranes. Found the instruction sheets on HOSeeker, and it does look like a Bucyrus Erie crane.

              Somewhere I have a Morning Sun book of color photos of CB&Q rolling stock. If I still have it (It was getting pretty ratty before I moved, so I may have tossed it), I will check the Redball model against the photos.

              Can't find photos online of CB&Q cranes though, at least not the one I remember being in that book.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Wed, 6/9/10, toytrain13 <toytrain13@...> wrote:

              From: toytrain13 <toytrain13@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 7:15 PM

               

              Hi guys- I've nearly completed my old Red Ball kit for the 200-ton wrecking crane. I'd like to decal this for a railroad that actually had this model of steam wrecking crane. I've painted my model black, and have bought the Champion Decals wrecking crane set of decals (white), which don't include a railroad name. As yet I can't find a photo of a prototype of this model of crane online, for any railroad. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks- Richard White

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14325 From: Russ Shiel Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              Richard: GN X-1745 is extant - 200-ton, built by Industrial Works, MI in 1927, according to GNRHS website.
              Best, Russ


              From: toytrain13 <toytrain13@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, 10 June, 2010 9:45:28 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane

               

              [snip]

              As yet I can't find a photo of a prototype of this model of crane online, for any railroad. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks- Richard White


               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14326 From: Richard White Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              Actually, the Nevada Northern crane is smaller, with four wheel trucks rather than the six-wheel Buckeye trucks of the Red Ball model. And I am aware of the Athearn model- somewhat similar to the Red Ball model.
               

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: luvprr@...
              Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 20:59:26 -0400
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane

               
              Nevada Northern. . . .
               
              In a message dated 6/9/2010 8:48:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, computersystemrebui ld@yahoo. com writes:


              I think the CB&Q had some 200 tone wrecking cranes. Found the instruction sheets on HOSeeker, and it does look like a Bucyrus Erie crane.

              Somewhere I have a Morning Sun book of color photos of CB&Q rolling stock. If I still have it (It was getting pretty ratty before I moved, so I may have tossed it), I will check the Redball model against the photos.

              Can't find photos online of CB&Q cranes though, at least not the one I remember being in that book.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Wed, 6/9/10, toytrain13 <toytrain13@hotmail. com> wrote:

              From: toytrain13 <toytrain13@hotmail. com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 7:15 PM

               

              Hi guys- I've nearly completed my old Red Ball kit for the 200-ton wrecking crane. I'd like to decal this for a railroad that actually had this model of steam wrecking crane. I've painted my model black, and have bought the Champion Decals wrecking crane set of decals (white), which don't include a railroad name. As yet I can't find a photo of a prototype of this model of crane online, for any railroad. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks- Richard White





              Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Learn more.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14327 From: Nelson B Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              Jim,

              Given that there are drum axles on the drivers and the tender wheelsets, isn't it a safe bet they experimented with both loco and tender band drives? And Irv being Irv, he left those features rather than redesign them, cutting worm gear teeth into the steel drum on the rear drivers, at least for the plastic drivered (1962?) version I have. That's the speculation I read a while back, either here or on another group.

              Ray, be sure to post any progress if you you undertake that project. It should be a lot quieter than the gear drive, and a lot faster too. Do you plan to use an original motor, or a slower can with better torque?

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Ray,
              >
              > Go for it and I wish you luck. However I have to ask exactly what you plan.
              > ]
              > Do you intend to make it tender rubber band drive ( utilizing the thick wheel set axles ) with motor mounted there also and with the engine along for the ride ? or Will you mount motor in cab and make it RBD to the drivers with electrical pickup in the tender.?
              >
              > I honestly have never been able to pin down, other then by story, just how Athearn had engineered that original RBD prototype Pacific.
              >
              > Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14328 From: Richard White Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              Thanks, Russ. I found an image of X-1745, and it is not the same structurally.Also, I think it is a diesel-powered crane, rather than steam-powered like the Red Ball model. Regards- Richard 

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: rshiel01@...
              Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 19:05:07 -0700
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane

               
              Richard: GN X-1745 is extant - 200-ton, built by Industrial Works, MI in 1927, according to GNRHS website.
              Best, Russ


              From: toytrain13 <toytrain13@hotmail. com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Thu, 10 June, 2010 9:45:28 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane

               

              [snip]
              As yet I can't find a photo of a prototype of this model of crane online, for any railroad. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks- Richard White



               


              The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14329 From: rcjge Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock
              Hi guys:

              As a follow on to my earlier posting about the vintage rolling stock kits I wanted to ask; if you were putting together a group of freight cars that initially used in the 1930's and eventually progressed to the mid 1960's, which vintage kits would you use to represent that roster?

              Appreciate any help,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14330 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              What I intend to do is power the loco and tender with one motor (an early Hustler motor) in the cab of the loco with a flexible tube to the tender.
               I expect it to be under powered with the stock hustler motor and hope the magnet replacement will help that.
               I will take photos of it's construction when I find the parts.
               I hate to do the modification on the only early gear drive loco I have.


              --- On Wed, 6/9/10, Nelson B <greenbrier614@...> wrote:

              From: Nelson B <greenbrier614@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 8:14 PM

              Jim,

              Given that there are drum axles on the drivers and the tender wheelsets, isn't it a safe bet they experimented with both loco and tender band drives? And Irv being Irv, he left those features rather than redesign them, cutting worm gear teeth into the steel drum on the rear drivers, at least for the plastic drivered (1962?) version I have. That's the speculation I read a while back, either here or on another group.

              Ray, be sure to post any progress if you you undertake that project. It should be a lot quieter than the gear drive, and a lot faster too. Do you plan to use an original motor, or a slower can with better torque?

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Ray,
              >
              >          Go for it and I wish you luck. However I have to ask exactly what you plan.   
              > ]
              >    Do you intend to make it tender rubber band drive  ( utilizing the thick wheel set axles ) with motor mounted there also and with the engine along for the ride ?    or   Will you mount motor in cab and make it RBD to the drivers  with electrical pickup in the tender.?
              >
              >    I honestly have never been able to pin down, other then by story, just how Athearn had engineered that original RBD prototype Pacific.
              >
              >                            Jim H




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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14331 From: Chris B Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: trolley drives
              Gerold, here's the description and a composite of all 5 photos offered with the auction.  I have run the frame with the working universals and it ran smooth as silk, but I didn't take any photos before packing them both away.  If more photos would help ID them, it wouldn't be any trouble to take them.  I can see now my memory failed me in my description of them yesterday, the drive gear train is inside the frames, not outside.  I'll admit I was furiously texting my description on my CrackBerry while I was blocking the catfood aisle at the safeway, I guess that's a gauge of how curious I am to find out more about these units.

              SAMHONGSA HO SCALE--BRASS POWERED FRAME WITH MOTOR.  RUNS WELL.  MARKED SAMHONGSA JAPAN ON BOTTOM.  ITEM WAS TESTED AND IT RAN IN FORWARD AND REVERSE.  THERE IS NO BOX WITH THE ITEM.  FRAME IS  IS 5 3/4" LONG & 1 3/16" WIDE.

              btw, I bought three brass bases from the same seller, two conventional brass traction bases that I haven't ID'd yet, and a third with what looks to me like a home shop center-mounted tower for a hobbytown drive gear setup. The desc is below, and photos attached.

              HO SCALE BRASS 3 FRAME BOTTOMS.  THE 2 ON TOP OF PICTURE ARE 7 5/16" LONG & 1 1/4" WIDE AND ARE MARKED JAPAN.  THE ONE ON BOTTOM OF PICTURE IS 7 3/8" LONG & 7/8" WIDE.

              FWIW, the only reason I'd like to ID the powered frames is a growing interest in vintage brass traction history, especially drive systems.

              I don't plan to try and find the matching shells for these two bases; my long term plan is to fit the motors and trucks with longer universals and mount them on the two longer brass bases I bought from the same seller. 

              Chris B.



              From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, June 9, 2010 4:39:34 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] trolley drives

               

              Chris B wrote:

              >
              >
              > Gerold,
              > You're right for sure about the vert drive, though it did show up all
              > over, I have a 1st gen Athearn RDC drive with multi geared truck and
              > vert motor drive.
              >
              > maybe you can help me I'd two Samhsongsa (sp) powered "low profile"
              > brass traction frames I recently got on ebay.
              >
              Chris,
              I think I saw them... considered to bid but passed;have spent already to
              much last month.

              Send me the pictures , on or off list... will check. There isnt much
              choice... not many trolleys built in the Samhongsa era; MTS comes to my
              mind but all the MTS models I know better had Ajin drives. Maybe if I
              see the pictures again.

              Gerold


                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14332 From: greg10562 Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Help ID boxcar
              Thanks Reed. You really know your HO equipment.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, estabrook@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Greg -
              >
              > You have two AHM 40' insulated plug-door box cars which were sold in the 1970's. At one time they were made by Roco (I believe the ones with black separate ladders and end-tabs were). In fact, I have one decorated for Armour, ARLX 1754, which is in it's original Roco box. I'm sure that both Swift and PFE had Class RB insulated PD box cars (often referred to as reefers), but I have never seen a picture of one like the Roco car. It is actually copied from a Pullman Standard prototype.
              >
              > Some additional trivia: There is an earlier version of this car imported by AHM - I have been told is was made by Liliput. It has cast on ladders and no end tabs. The bottoms are similar but read AHM - Austria, whereas the Roco cars have a small Roco diamond before the Austria. Con-Cor obtained the dies for the cast-on ladder version and made them in the U.S., as they also did with PS-1 box cars and PS-2 3-bay covered hoppers.
              >
              > Reed
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---- Original Message ----
              > From: greg10562 <greg10562@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tue, Jun 8, 2010 1:20 pm
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Help ID boxcar
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I have two 40 foot plug door boxcar shells that I bought at a train show and I'd like to find out who made them. Both are one-piece shells with separate roofwalks and ladders in black plastic. One car is silver and lettered for Swift with a red rectangluar Swift logo, reporting marks are SRLX 4226. The other car is reefer orange and lettered for Pacific Fruit Express, reporting marks are PFE 45695. I do not have the floors but a tab fits into a slot on each end. There is no manufacturer mark inside the shell. Maybe AHM or Rivarrossi? Does anybody know? Did Swift or PFE ever own 40 foot plug door boxcars? My original intent was to kitbash into a 50 foot boxcar but I might not do it if these are old or rare. Thanks.
              > Greg
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14333 From: jim heckard Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
               
               
                 Ray M, Nelson B,
               
                   I have to agree with what you both say.
               
                   Ray,    Always in the back of my mind I envisioned that prototype RBD Athearn Pacific could have been driven both tender and engine at the same time. I pictured an Athearn  rubber band drive F-7 ( or any diesel ) or RDC setup in that Pacific. Since both the drive shafts extending from the motor were either a flexible rubber coupling or a factory made plastic pivot coupling ( later models ? ) I figured you could mount the motor in the cab so that the back shaft pivoted just above the same place as the tender / engine would. Maybe you would have to use a longer then normal flexible rubber piece to achieve that. You could make the drive shaft support in the tender and it would allow the tender and motor driven shaft to pivot in unison and freely.  Cut holes in the tender floor and attach with rubber bands to the heavy axled wheel sets. Experimenting would tell if you would want or need 2 or 4. In the cab / boiler the front drive shaft  could still have the flexible coupling but doesn't need it, and the bands could be attached to the main drivers. ( Not being an engineer I am just wondering , since you would be turning two different size wheels, tender sets & main drivers, even though turning the axles the same speed, if it  would create a problem. Again experiment. ). It will be very interesting to see what you will come up with. Good luck. Keep us posted.
               
                   Nelson,
               
                     I believe as you that Irv Athearn threw nothing away. He was very frugal. The boxes that any later Pacific's came in that were printed wrong is an example. The same with the wheel sets in the tender. Whether they would have first been planned to be used for RBD or just for free rolling tender wheel sets in general he would not have manufactured a new part until he used up what he had. Same would go for the plastic drivers that were first developed to be used to provide good traction for that first planned RBD Pacific. He still tried to use that style, now geared,  but the finish didn't work as planned and created a lot of slippage. Uncle Irv and company had to change to metal drivers. I'm sure there are lots of other examples.
               
                                                        Jim H
               
               
                
               
                     
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 2:43 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               

              What I intend to do is power the loco and tender with one motor (an early Hustler motor) in the cab of the loco with a flexible tube to the tender.
               I expect it to be under powered with the stock hustler motor and hope the magnet replacement will help that.
               I will take photos of it's construction when I find the parts.
               I hate to do the modification on the only early gear drive loco I have.


              --- On Wed, 6/9/10, Nelson B <greenbrier614@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              From: Nelson B <greenbrier614@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 8:14 PM

              Jim,

              Given that there are drum axles on the drivers and the tender wheelsets, isn't it a safe bet they experimented with both loco and tender band drives? And Irv being Irv, he left those features rather than redesign them, cutting worm gear teeth into the steel drum on the rear drivers, at least for the plastic drivered (1962?) version I have. That's the speculation I read a while back, either here or on another group.

              Ray, be sure to post any progress if you you undertake that project. It should be a lot quieter than the gear drive, and a lot faster too. Do you plan to use an original motor, or a slower can with better torque?

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Ray,
              >
              >          Go for it and I wish you luck. However I have to ask exactly what you plan.   
              > ]
              >    Do you intend to make it tender rubber band drive  ( utilizing the thick wheel set axles ) with motor mounted there also and with the engine along for the ride ?    or   Will you mount motor in cab and make it RBD to the drivers  with electrical pickup in the tender.?
              >
              >    I honestly have never been able to pin down, other then by story, just how Athearn had engineered that original RBD prototype Pacific.
              >
              >                            Jim H




              ------------ --------- --------- ------

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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14334 From: jim heckard Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
                  
               
                 Ray M, Nelson B,
               
               
                  Part II   I just realized I missed some things I wanted to add. When talking about the design below I mentioned I just was kind of thinking about the possibility not the practicality or feasibility.
               
                  While numerous types of designs for the RBD Pacific might have been tried by Irv and company I really tend to believe  the one design with the best chance would have been engine in cab with one drive rod forward with RBD attached the drivers. A design much like the Lionel HO 2-4-2 ( No. 0642  ) that is RBD ( actually O ring ) driven. While I can't verify the statement by  Jim Lenahan in his Locomotive Lexicon Vol II Page 39 ( Nor can I find fact to dispute it ) it states    "  2-4-2 Lionel 1960  plastic, Athearn type motor and drive system using a rubber band coupling to wheels instead of gears. Poor performance of this model no doubt influenced  Athearn to switch to gear drive before releasing his model, which was at the time being ready to release.".
               
                  In a conversation with Mr. Lenahan before his passing he mentioned this engine. He was of the opinion this design was created by Athearn to be sold by Lionel. It was just at the time of the Athearn / Lionel partnership and Lionel going on their own. REMEMBER ONLY TALKING ABOUT THIS 2-4-2 Lionel HO engine and how it could relate to the first Athearn Pacific prototype..
               
                    I honestly think those heavy axle tender wheel sets were just Athearn's way to use stock up and not meant to be driven. Otherwise he would have had a lot of tender floors with slots in them. Add to that electrical pick up would have all been in the tender making things tight. 
               
                    My thoughts. Open for others.
               
                                                            Jim H
               
                 
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:30 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               
               
                 Ray M, Nelson B,
               
                   I have to agree with what you both say.
               
                   Ray,    Always in the back of my mind I envisioned that prototype RBD Athearn Pacific could have been driven both tender and engine at the same time. I pictured an Athearn  rubber band drive F-7 ( or any diesel ) or RDC setup in that Pacific. Since both the drive shafts extending from the motor were either a flexible rubber coupling or a factory made plastic pivot coupling ( later models ? ) I figured you could mount the motor in the cab so that the back shaft pivoted just above the same place as the tender / engine would. Maybe you would have to use a longer then normal flexible rubber piece to achieve that. You could make the drive shaft support in the tender and it would allow the tender and motor driven shaft to pivot in unison and freely.  Cut holes in the tender floor and attach with rubber bands to the heavy axled wheel sets. Experimenting would tell if you would want or need 2 or 4. In the cab / boiler the front drive shaft  could still have the flexible coupling but doesn't need it, and the bands could be attached to the main drivers. ( Not being an engineer I am just wondering , since you would be turning two different size wheels, tender sets & main drivers, even though turning the axles the same speed, if it  would create a problem. Again experiment. ). It will be very interesting to see what you will come up with. Good luck. Keep us posted.
               
                   Nelson,
               
                     I believe as you that Irv Athearn threw nothing away. He was very frugal. The boxes that any later Pacific's came in that were printed wrong is an example. The same with the wheel sets in the tender. Whether they would have first been planned to be used for RBD or just for free rolling tender wheel sets in general he would not have manufactured a new part until he used up what he had. Same would go for the plastic drivers that were first developed to be used to provide good traction for that first planned RBD Pacific. He still tried to use that style, now geared,  but the finish didn't work as planned and created a lot of slippage. Uncle Irv and company had to change to metal drivers. I'm sure there are lots of other examples.
               
                                                        Jim H
               
               
                
               
                     
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 2:43 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               

              What I intend to do is power the loco and tender with one motor (an early Hustler motor) in the cab of the loco with a flexible tube to the tender.
               I expect it to be under powered with the stock hustler motor and hope the magnet replacement will help that.
               I will take photos of it's construction when I find the parts.
               I hate to do the modification on the only early gear drive loco I have.


              --- On Wed, 6/9/10, Nelson B <greenbrier614@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              From: Nelson B <greenbrier614@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Wednesday, June 9, 2010, 8:14 PM

              Jim,

              Given that there are drum axles on the drivers and the tender wheelsets, isn't it a safe bet they experimented with both loco and tender band drives? And Irv being Irv, he left those features rather than redesign them, cutting worm gear teeth into the steel drum on the rear drivers, at least for the plastic drivered (1962?) version I have. That's the speculation I read a while back, either here or on another group.

              Ray, be sure to post any progress if you you undertake that project. It should be a lot quieter than the gear drive, and a lot faster too. Do you plan to use an original motor, or a slower can with better torque?

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Ray,
              >
              >          Go for it and I wish you luck. However I have to ask exactly what you plan.   
              > ]
              >    Do you intend to make it tender rubber band drive  ( utilizing the thick wheel set axles ) with motor mounted there also and with the engine along for the ride ?    or   Will you mount motor in cab and make it RBD to the drivers  with electrical pickup in the tender.?
              >
              >    I honestly have never been able to pin down, other then by story, just how Athearn had engineered that original RBD prototype Pacific.
              >
              >                            Jim H




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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14335 From: Garry Spear Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Info. Request - Varney? DAVISON covered hopper
              Attachments :
              A friend is asking about this car. Looks like Varney, Has Varney cast
              into the mold, So it must be Varney, Right?

              Or is it Marx?

              Gray car with a red roof.

              Garry Spear
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14336 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)


              --- On Thu, 6/10/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 7:29 AM



                  
               
                 
               
               
                      While numerous types of designs for the RBD Pacific might have been tried by Irv and company I really tend to believe  the one design with the best chance would have been engine in cab with one drive rod forward with RBD attached the drivers.
               
                    I honestly think those heavy axle tender wheel sets were just Athearn's way to use stock up and not meant to be driven. Otherwise he would have had a lot of tender floors with slots in them. Add to that electrical pick up would have all been in the tender making things tight. 
               
                    My thoughts. Open for others.
               
                                                            Jim H
              Jim,
               I agree with both statements.
              I'm thinking that that would have been the original idea and only speculating that an attempt to drive the tender wheels from the motor already in the cab that is driving the locomotive may have been an experiment to get more traction.
               As for the ratio between the driven locomotive wheels and the driven tender wheels , they would work together, the ratio of the diameter of the locomotive drum compared to the diameter of locomotive wheel and the ratio of the diameter of the tender drum compared to the diameter of tender wheel are about the same.
               If the tender wheels and loco wheels had the same size drums with the different diameter wheels there would be a problem. 
               
                 

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14337 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Info. Request - Varney? DAVISON covered hopper [1 Attachment]
              I believe it definitely is Varney, number checks, although Spanagel's book says it is "gray with green lettering and unpainted black cover".

              Reed




              -----Original Message-----
              From: Garry Spear <garrettspear@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, Jun 10, 2010 12:22 pm
              Subject: [vintageHO] Info. Request - Varney? DAVISON covered hopper [1 Attachment]

               
              [Attachment(s) from Garry Spear included below]
              A friend is asking about this car. Looks like Varney, Has Varney cast
              into the mold, So it must be Varney, Right?

              Or is it Marx?

              Gray car with a red roof.

              Garry Spear
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14338 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Info. Request - Varney? DAVISON covered hopper [1 Attachment]
              It's not a Marx, couplers were attached differently and Marx didn't have Davison covered hoppers.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 12:22 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Info. Request - Varney? DAVISON covered hopper [1 Attachment]

               

              A friend is asking about this car. Looks like Varney, Has Varney cast
              into the mold, So it must be Varney, Right?

              Or is it Marx?

              Gray car with a red roof.

              Garry Spear

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14339 From: jim heckard Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
               
               Ray,
               
                  Thanks for measuring the ratio of the drums versus the wheels. Glad that should work out as it was one of the first possible problems I thought off. I didn't feel like taking my collection piece with the plastic drivers apart to do it.
               
                   Hey straight ahead with the project. Sorry I have nothing extra in the way of parts to help. Keep in touch as you advance. I  think it will be interesting to see what you come up with and what could have worked.  
               
                                                Jim
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 1:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               



              --- On Thu, 6/10/10, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Thursday, June 10, 2010, 7:29 AM



                  
               
                 
               
               
                      While numerous types of designs for the RBD Pacific might have been tried by Irv and company I really tend to believe  the one design with the best chance would have been engine in cab with one drive rod forward with RBD attached the drivers.
               
                    I honestly think those heavy axle tender wheel sets were just Athearn's way to use stock up and not meant to be driven. Otherwise he would have had a lot of tender floors with slots in them. Add to that electrical pick up would have all been in the tender making things tight. 
               
                    My thoughts. Open for others.
               
                                                            Jim H
              Jim,
               I agree with both statements.
              I'm thinking that that would have been the original idea and only speculating that an attempt to drive the tender wheels from the motor already in the cab that is driving the locomotive may have been an experiment to get more traction.
               As for the ratio between the driven locomotive wheels and the driven tender wheels , they would work together, the ratio of the diameter of the locomotive drum compared to the diameter of locomotive wheel and the ratio of the diameter of the tender drum compared to the diameter of tender wheel are about the same.
               If the tender wheels and loco wheels had the same size drums with the different diameter wheels there would be a problem. 
               
                 

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14340 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock
              On 6/9/2010 10:22 PM, rcjge wrote:
              > Hi guys:
              >
              > As a follow on to my earlier posting about the vintage rolling stock
              > kits I wanted to ask; if you were putting together a group of freight
              > cars that initially used in the 1930's and eventually progressed to
              > the mid 1960's, which vintage kits would you use to represent that
              > roster?

              A lot of Silver Streak kits - boxcars, reefers, gondolas, etc.

              --

              Rick Jones

              News Flash! Capt. Crunch, Count Chocula and the Trix Rabbit all
              slain by cereal killer.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14341 From: Richard White Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock
              Vintage freight car kits for this era: Silver Streak, Red Ball, Ulrich, Mantua (metal), Laconia. Regards- Richard White 
               

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: jgpedwards@...
              Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 03:22:02 +0000
              Subject: [vintageHO] 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock

               
              Hi guys:

              As a follow on to my earlier posting about the vintage rolling stock kits I wanted to ask; if you were putting together a group of freight cars that initially used in the 1930's and eventually progressed to the mid 1960's, which vintage kits would you use to represent that roster?

              Appreciate any help,
              Gareth




              The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14342 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Pirated Carsides
              That eBay name sounds familiar for some reason, and in the past I have bought NOS paper car sides in O scale as well as HO. Most of mine were Champion and some other name that did OO scale sides for Picard cars. I don't think they were Red Ball.

              Hope this all gets resolved and the forgers of the car sides, I hope they get a just punishment!

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:

              From: Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pirated Carsides
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: info@..., news@..., mrrmag@..., bills@...
              Date: Monday, June 7, 2010, 10:51 AM

               

              June 7,2010

              This morning I received a report from "an NMRA watchdog" that an ebay seller from California, estorebook, is selling pirated copies of Red Ball and NMRA car sides. Over the years we (and Howell Day)frequently confronted part counterfeiters -- in the US. The practice places parts of inferior quality in the marketplace jeopordizing the manufacturer's reputation and financial stability. In the realm of collectibles (as in this case)the worthless copies not only dupe buyers but they damage the ability of rightful owners to recognize the value of their investment. Collectors have value in their stock and the kit maker values potential in reaching a new product market. [It would be nice if we could CREATE new carsides and parts by simply pushing a button, but there is a lot of skill and investment that must come first--and then the reward-- hopefully including financial]. These ebay copies are neither collectibles nor suited as new products for current market
              expectations. Support of such pirates by individual buyers is a detriment to the MODEL RAILROADING (AND COLLECTING) hobby. When a portion of a potential market is "skimmed cream" the rightful owner is left with skimmed milk--at best. Nearly all Red Ball printed card carsides were for wood type cars and the boards were defined by indentations a color copy machine cannot reproduce. Exceptions have been GN plywood boxcars, tank car and semi trailer wrappers, a select group of printed MODEL RAILROADER printed sides purchased from Kalmbach by Howell Day, and embossed "steel side cars" with rivets etc. Some pre war Challenger passenger cars and exclusive run plastic Kurtz Kraft kits for Howell Day would be be further exceptions. Later Red Ball silk screened and pad printed wood sides utilized scribed wood. Red Ball card sides were sold as "QuicKits" in the late 1970s when Red Ball turned to wood sides.

              This hobby has historically been plagued with "copiers." Since we are all duplicating prototype trains perhaps that should be expected. For years a leading magazine carried an ad from an individual selling copies of kit instructions with plans well suited to scratch building. (And another ad "borrowing" them). When I printed our Hometown kit plans on colored paper earlier copiers could not process, the editors criticized-- until I led them to that ad in their own magazine. I appreciate the "watchdog's" call today, and others over the years as well. Several years ago one fellow advised me there was a plastic copy of the Red Ball 50 foot PRR DC flat car and compared the merits of the kits. In THAT case I had to gently tell him, "yes, we make both kits using the same molds". We would all be well served if this attitude could be fostered and more widespread.

              In today's particular case it appears the seller is in direct violation of copyright laws protecting the NMRA sides and further action shou;d be expected. It appears estorebook has shrewdly (or accidentally) sidestepped SOME legal protectionS of Red Ball's owners using a technicality I will not reveal. Red Ball car side art is now owned by LaBelle Woodworking of Cheyenne, WY. Their reputation for quality products is well known and future releases should be well worth the wait. Protection of their investment should be in the best interests of all model railroaders -- except the pirates.

              Merle Rice
              Producer of Red Ball 1975-2009

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14343 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 6/10/2010
              Subject: Red Ball Wreck Crane
              The Red Ball wreck crane is a Bucyrus-Erie (manufacturer) 200 Ton prototype that was likely purchased by several railroads. Some early Red Ball line art illustrations showed it with B&O markings. Many steam wreck cranes were rebuilt to diesel power by owner railroads over the years so that (diesel vs steam) would not provide a good ID basis when checking prototype photos. Check the boom and cab design. The Red Ball molds were used to offer injection molded black styrene cabs and booms in the 1980s (in the Cannonball Car Shops brand). That could create identical (but much lighterweight) variations of the Red Ball kit 772-4308. These parts may also have been used to create "modernized" hybrid Gould or Tichy wreck cranes with either enclosed cabs or straighter booms. [It is likely there are Red Ball cranes with Tichy "crooked" booms backdating them, as well]. The Athearn crane model is not the same prototype and any similarity is limited to very general
              observations. Both have booms,hooks,cabs and 6 wheel trucks. Only the trucks having same prototype appearance. The primary variation of the kit from run to run (1950-90) is in the wood piece the boom is mounted on and the lift roof on the cab (sheet metal or sheet plastic). It was one of the first kits I built as a teenager (still have it) and I later manufactured MANY hundreds of this popular Red Ball kit.

              Merle Rice
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14344 From: bob d Date: 6/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              I don't know whether to start this reply with "Many moon ago" or "Once upon a time". Either way, I remember Dad have a "mini" sized crane in his collection years ago. I seem to remember the box saying it was a 125-ton crane. It had a pair of 4-wheel trucks. I remember it having a blue box(no, not Athearn blue). It was a rather dark Columbia Blue(a bit darker than the "Send" button at the top of the screen) as I recall, with either dark blue or black lettering. Unfortunately, it wasn't in the stuff I inherited when he passed away. It reminded me of a "mini" Bucyrus-Erie unit. I've never seen another since.

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi guys- I've nearly completed my old Red Ball kit for the 200-ton wrecking crane. I'd like to decal this for a railroad that actually had this model of steam wrecking crane. I've painted my model black, and have bought the Champion Decals wrecking crane set of decals (white), which don't include a railroad name. As yet I can't find a photo of a prototype of this model of crane online, for any railroad. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks- Richard White
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14345 From: Robert Karnisky Date: 6/11/2010
              Subject: 200-ton wrecking crane
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...> wrote:

              "Hi guys- I've nearly completed my old Red Ball kit for the 200-ton wrecking crane. I'd like to decal this for a railroad that actually had this model of steam wrecking crane. I've painted my model black, and have bought the Champion Decals wrecking crane set of decals (white), which don't include a railroad name. As yet I can't find a photo of a prototype of this model of crane online, for any railroad. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks- Richard White"
               
              The Chicago South Shore and South Bend Railroad used a 200-ton crane. They called it "Big Hook" but it was numbered X1150. I have created a photo album, "Big Hook," and placed an image of it there. Although it's painted orange in the photo, it was also painted black at one time.
               
              - Rob Karnisky





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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14346 From: Mike Sloane Date: 6/11/2010
              Subject: Re: 200-ton wrecking crane
              There are a bunch of images of rail cranes (including CSS X1150) at
              <http://www.northeast.railfan.net/mow6.html> Note that image on the page
              *appears* to be different from the one than the one Robert posted. I am
              guessing that the body was modified when it was converted to diesel.

              Mike

              On 6/11/2010 6:54 AM, Robert Karnisky wrote:
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > <http://us.mc556.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>, "toytrain13"
              > <toytrain13@...> wrote:
              >
              > "Hi guys- I've nearly completed my old Red Ball kit for the 200-ton
              > wrecking crane. I'd like to decal this for a railroad that actually had
              > this model of steam wrecking crane. I've painted my model black, and
              > have bought the Champion Decals wrecking crane set of decals (white),
              > which don't include a railroad name. As yet I can't find a photo of a
              > prototype of this model of crane online, for any railroad. Can anyone
              > help me on this? Thanks- Richard White"
              > The Chicago South Shore and South Bend Railroad used a 200-ton crane.
              > They called it "Big Hook" but it was numbered X1150. I have created a
              > photo album, "Big Hook," and placed an image of it there. Although it's
              > painted orange in the photo, it was also painted black at one time.
              > - Rob Karnisky
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14347 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball K-64 200-ton wrecking crane
              Hi Bob, You may be thinking of an Ideal (Ideal Aeroplane & Supply Co.)
              wrecking crane, on 4-wheel trucks. Ideal made model railroad, airplane and
              ship model kits. I have their wrecking crane kit, but I don't recall the color
              of their box -- and like many other pieces in my collection it's buried too
              deeply for easy access. I'll let you know if it has a dark blue box as I
              run across it. Another company by the name of 20th Century Models also
              produced a 125-Ton Crane. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14348 From: Nelson B Date: 6/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              Jim,

              I agree that the tender frames probably would have had the cutouts for the rubber bands if there had ever been serious consideration of a tender drive. I'm really curious to see what Ray comes up with, and I hope all the rods stay on at the high RPMs it will be capable of. I was wondering about the reduction ratios of the drivers vs. the tender wheels myself, so it's interesting to know that they are at least close. The tender will make quite a booster unit.

              There's always Bullfrog Snot to improve the traction of the plastic drivers, and that may be something to try after I do the motor magnet upgrade. It's pricey, but everyone I've talked to who's tried it loves the stuff, in spite of the name.

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Ray,
              >
              > Thanks for measuring the ratio of the drums versus the wheels. Glad that should work out as it was one of the first possible problems I thought off. I didn't feel like taking my collection piece with the plastic drivers apart to do it.
              >
              > Hey straight ahead with the project. Sorry I have nothing extra in the way of parts to help. Keep in touch as you advance. I think it will be interesting to see what you come up with and what could have worked.
              >
              > Jim
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14349 From: jim heckard Date: 6/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              Nelson,
               
                  " Bullfrog Snot " ?     That's a new one on me.  I'm not really up on these things. I can only guess it will improve traction but at what point does it stick to the track ?
               
                  While everything is going to be a guess as to the probability of what could have been I would like to see what Ray will come up with.
               
                                          Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson B
              Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 7:20 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)

               

              Jim,

              I agree that the tender frames probably would have had the cutouts for the rubber bands if there had ever been serious consideration of a tender drive. I'm really curious to see what Ray comes up with, and I hope all the rods stay on at the high RPMs it will be capable of. I was wondering about the reduction ratios of the drivers vs. the tender wheels myself, so it's interesting to know that they are at least close. The tender will make quite a booster unit.

              There's always Bullfrog Snot to improve the traction of the plastic drivers, and that may be something to try after I do the motor magnet upgrade. It's pricey, but everyone I've talked to who's tried it loves the stuff, in spite of the name.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Ray,
              >
              > Thanks for measuring the ratio of the drums versus the wheels. Glad that should work out as it was one of the first possible problems I thought off. I didn't feel like taking my collection piece with the plastic drivers apart to do it.
              >
              > Hey straight ahead with the project. Sorry I have nothing extra in the way of parts to help. Keep in touch as you advance. I think it will be interesting to see what you come up with and what could have worked.
              >
              > Jim

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14350 From: Richard White Date: 6/11/2010
              Subject: Re: 200-ton wrecking crane
              Thanks for the replies. Merle Rice (thanks!) indicates that the Red Ball model is a Bucyrus-Erie 200-ton crane. Northeast Railfan (thanks Mike Sloan) did not have a photo of this crane (most were Industrial Brownhoist, not Bucyrus-Erie). I've looked at pictures of lots of cranes, but so far, there's not a match! Regards- Richard White
               

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: mikesloane@...
              Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 07:51:34 -0400
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 200-ton wrecking crane

               
              There are a bunch of images of rail cranes (including CSS X1150) at
              <http://www.northeast.railfan.net/mow6.html> Note that image on the page
              *appears* to be different from the one than the one Robert posted. I am
              guessing that the body was modified when it was converted to diesel.

              Mike

              On 6/11/2010 6:54 AM, Robert Karnisky wrote:
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > <http://us.mc556.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>, "toytrain13"
              > <toytrain13@...> wrote:
              >
              > "Hi guys- I've nearly completed my old Red Ball kit for the 200-ton
              > wrecking crane. I'd like to decal this for a railroad that actually had
              > this model of steam wrecking crane. I've painted my model black, and
              > have bought the Champion Decals wrecking crane set of decals (white),
              > which don't include a railroad name. As yet I can't find a photo of a
              > prototype of this model of crane online, for any railroad. Can anyone
              > help me on this? Thanks- Richard White"
              > The Chicago South Shore and South Bend Railroad used a 200-ton crane.
              > They called it "Big Hook" but it was numbered X1150. I have created a
              > photo album, "Big Hook," and placed an image of it there. Although it's
              > painted orange in the photo, it was also painted black at one time.
              > - Rob Karnisky



              The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. Get busy.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14351 From: Nelson B Date: 6/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              Jim,

              Bullfrog Snot is far more necessary for new, lighter plastic steamers than the vintage heavy metal you run, so it doesn't surprise me that you haven't heard of it. Once it dries, it won't come off for a long time. http://www.bullfrogsnot.com/

              From what I've read on the Model railroader forum, the best application method is to run the loco upside down at a moderate speed and apply a thin, even coat to one or two drivers.

              Nelson



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Nelson,
              >
              > " Bullfrog Snot " ? That's a new one on me. I'm not really up on these things. I can only guess it will improve traction but at what point does it stick to the track ?
              >
              > While everything is going to be a guess as to the probability of what could have been I would like to see what Ray will come up with.
              >
              > Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14352 From: Mike Sloane Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: Re: 200-ton wrecking crane
              Understand two things: 1. While B-E had a "catalog" of offerings, each
              crane was pretty much custom built, and no two were exactly alike, and
              2. manufacturers of models back in the mid 20th century were not all
              that concerned with absolute accuracy as much as today's manufacturers.
              Nor were the modelers all that demanding (and didn't have the kind of
              access to images that we have today to check). This was especially true
              of MOW equipment and even steam locomotives.

              Mike

              On 6/11/2010 9:36 PM, Richard White wrote:
              >
              >
              > Thanks for the replies. Merle Rice (thanks!) indicates that the Red Ball
              > model is a Bucyrus-Erie 200-ton crane. Northeast Railfan (thanks Mike
              > Sloan) did not have a photo of this crane (most were Industrial
              > Brownhoist, not Bucyrus-Erie). I've looked at pictures of lots of
              > cranes, but so far, there's not a match! Regards- Richard White
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14353 From: oljoe@bex.net Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Pacific (was rubber bands)
              WHAT? a 1 oz. jar is $24.95. Now that is serious.
              The web site is an even bigger hoot.
              Joe O'Loughlin

              Nelson B wrote:

              >
              >
              > Jim,
              >
              > Bullfrog Snot is far more necessary for new, lighter plastic steamers
              > than the vintage heavy metal you run, so it doesn't surprise me that you
              > haven't heard of it. Once it dries, it won't come off for a long time.
              > http://www.bullfrogsnot.com/
              >
              > >From what I've read on the Model railroader forum, the best
              > application method is to run the loco upside down at a moderate speed
              > and apply a thin, even coat to one or two drivers.
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Nelson,
              > >
              > > " Bullfrog Snot " ? That's a new one on me. I'm not really up on
              > these things. I can only guess it will improve traction but at what
              > point does it stick to the track ?
              > >
              > > While everything is going to be a guess as to the probability of what
              > could have been I would like to see what Ray will come up with.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14354 From: bob d Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: Re: 200-ton wrecking crane
              Mike, the detail of today's models is in the eyes of the beholder. I've spent many an hour toiling on the workbench to match a specific prototype, as I'm sure many have done the same. And to note, I've spent the same amount of time, many times less time, hunched over an "early" model doing the same thing, usually an easier job since some details cast in the model weren't there and didn't have to be removed.

              The great thing about today is the fact that many modelers, many here on this sight, now catalog information and pictures o of the old school models. The information is so much more available due to the cyber age. Very much a good thing.

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              >
              > Understand two things: 1. While B-E had a "catalog" of offerings, each
              > crane was pretty much custom built, and no two were exactly alike, and
              > 2. manufacturers of models back in the mid 20th century were not all
              > that concerned with absolute accuracy as much as today's manufacturers.
              > Nor were the modelers all that demanding (and didn't have the kind of
              > access to images that we have today to check). This was especially true
              > of MOW equipment and even steam locomotives.
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 6/11/2010 9:36 PM, Richard White wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks for the replies. Merle Rice (thanks!) indicates that the Red Ball
              > > model is a Bucyrus-Erie 200-ton crane. Northeast Railfan (thanks Mike
              > > Sloan) did not have a photo of this crane (most were Industrial
              > > Brownhoist, not Bucyrus-Erie). I've looked at pictures of lots of
              > > cranes, but so far, there's not a match! Regards- Richard White
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14355 From: Chris B Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: Fw: Samhongsa trolley drives
              Gerold, I'm pretty sure I've identified those low profile drives as MTS, and probably as their Reading Street Rwy Trolley.

              I've attached a link to Brasstrains.com that has one currently for sale, and a composite photo of their unit and one of the chassis I just got from ebay.

              I'm glad to find a lead, at least now I can research the side frames based on this likely prototype.

              Chris



                READING
              BG-NO: BG-26638
              Category: TRACTION
              Whyte:
              Description: READING STREET RAILWAY TROLLEY
              Importer: MTS IMPORTS
              Builder: SAMHONGSA
                BX-00506

              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 8:05:23 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] trolley drives [2 Attachments]

               

              Gerold, here's the description and a composite of all 5 photos offered with the auction.  I have run the frame with the working universals and it ran smooth as silk, but I didn't take any photos before packing them both away.  If more photos would help ID them, it wouldn't be any trouble to take them.  I can see now my memory failed me in my description of them yesterday, the drive gear train is inside the frames, not outside.  I'll admit I was furiously texting my description on my CrackBerry while I was blocking the catfood aisle at the safeway, I guess that's a gauge of how curious I am to find out more about these units.

              SAMHONGSA HO SCALE--BRASS POWERED FRAME WITH MOTOR.  RUNS WELL.  MARKED SAMHONGSA JAPAN ON BOTTOM.  ITEM WAS TESTED AND IT RAN IN FORWARD AND REVERSE.  THERE IS NO BOX WITH THE ITEM.  FRAME IS  IS 5 3/4" LONG & 1 3/16" WIDE.

              btw, I bought three brass bases from the same seller, two conventional brass traction bases that I haven't ID'd yet, and a third with what looks to me like a home shop center-mounted tower for a hobbytown drive gear setup. The desc is below, and photos attached.

              HO SCALE BRASS 3 FRAME BOTTOMS.  THE 2 ON TOP OF PICTURE ARE 7 5/16" LONG & 1 1/4" WIDE AND ARE MARKED JAPAN.  THE ONE ON BOTTOM OF PICTURE IS 7 3/8" LONG & 7/8" WIDE.

              FWIW, the only reason I'd like to ID the powered frames is a growing interest in vintage brass traction history, especially drive systems.

              I don't plan to try and find the matching shells for these two bases; my long term plan is to fit the motors and trucks with longer universals and mount them on the two longer brass bases I bought from the same seller. 

              Chris B.



              From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Wed, June 9, 2010 4:39:34 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] trolley drives

               

              Chris B wrote:

              >
              >
              > Gerold,
              > You're right for sure about the vert drive, though it did show up all
              > over, I have a 1st gen Athearn RDC drive with multi geared truck and
              > vert motor drive.
              >
              > maybe you can help me I'd two Samhsongsa (sp) powered "low profile"
              > brass traction frames I recently got on ebay.
              >
              Chris,
              I think I saw them... considered to bid but passed;have spent already to
              much last month.

              Send me the pictures , on or off list... will check. There isnt much
              choice... not many trolleys built in the Samhongsa era; MTS comes to my
              mind but all the MTS models I know better had Ajin drives. Maybe if I
              see the pictures again.

              Gerold





                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14356 From: rcjge Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: Re: 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock
              Hi Rick:

              So if I'm modeling say initially the prototype in 1930-40 you'd recommend Silver Streak cars? Just to clarify, I'm not looking for 1930-40 era kits but rather vintage kits that represent that period on the real railroads.

              Thanks,
              Gareth



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:
              >
              > On 6/9/2010 10:22 PM, rcjge wrote:
              > > Hi guys:
              > >
              > > As a follow on to my earlier posting about the vintage rolling stock
              > > kits I wanted to ask; if you were putting together a group of freight
              > > cars that initially used in the 1930's and eventually progressed to
              > > the mid 1960's, which vintage kits would you use to represent that
              > > roster?
              >
              > A lot of Silver Streak kits - boxcars, reefers, gondolas, etc.
              >
              > --
              >
              > Rick Jones
              >
              > News Flash! Capt. Crunch, Count Chocula and the Trix Rabbit all
              > slain by cereal killer.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14357 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: Re: 1930-1967 Era with Vintage rolling Stock
              On 6/12/2010 10:25 AM, rcjge wrote:
              > Hi Rick:
              >
              > So if I'm modeling say initially the prototype in 1930-40 you'd
              > recommend Silver Streak cars? Just to clarify, I'm not looking for
              > 1930-40 era kits but rather vintage kits that represent that period
              > on the real railroads.

              Yes, that's one brand of kits that I favor. My primary modeling era
              is the late 1930s, just before the ban on archbar trucks was put in
              place. I have a lot of Silver Streak kits that are appropriate for that
              time in history.

              --

              Rick Jones

              No man goes before his time. Unless the boss leaves early.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14358 From: Chris B Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Samhongsa trolley drives
              whoops, spoke too soon, that's the drive type alright, but wrong actual model, the underframe detail is different on the Reading unit.

              oh well...

              Chris B.



              Gerold, I'm pretty sure I've identified those low profile drives

              http://www.brassguide.com/exchange.php?scol=&sdir=1&txt=trolley&rro=&scale=1#



                READING
              BG-NO: BG-26638
              Category: TRACTION
              Whyte:
              Description: READING STREET RAILWAY TROLLEY
              Importer: MTS IMPORTS
              Builder: SAMHONGSA
                BX-00506

              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, June 10, 2010 8:05:23 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] trolley drives [2 Attachments]

               

              Gerold, here's the description and a composite of all 5 photos offered with the auction.  I have run the frame with the working universals and it ran smooth as silk, but I didn't take any photos before packing them both away.  If more photos would help ID them, it wouldn't be any trouble to take them.  I can see now my memory failed me in my description of them yesterday, the drive gear train is inside the frames, not outside.  I'll admit I was furiously texting my description on my CrackBerry while I was blocking the catfood aisle at the safeway, I guess that's a gauge of how curious I am to find out more about these units.

              SAMHONGSA HO SCALE--BRASS POWERED FRAME WITH MOTOR.  RUNS WELL.  MARKED SAMHONGSA JAPAN ON BOTTOM.  ITEM WAS TESTED AND IT RAN IN FORWARD AND REVERSE.  THERE IS NO BOX WITH THE ITEM.  FRAME IS  IS 5 3/4" LONG & 1 3/16" WIDE.

              btw, I bought three brass bases from the same seller, two conventional brass traction bases that I haven't ID'd yet, and a third with what looks to me like a home shop center-mounted tower for a hobbytown drive gear setup. The desc is below, and photos attached.

              HO SCALE BRASS 3 FRAME BOTTOMS.  THE 2 ON TOP OF PICTURE ARE 7 5/16" LONG & 1 1/4" WIDE AND ARE MARKED JAPAN.  THE ONE ON BOTTOM OF PICTURE IS 7 3/8" LONG & 7/8" WIDE.

              FWIW, the only reason I'd like to ID the powered frames is a growing interest in vintage brass traction history, especially drive systems.

              I don't plan to try and find the matching shells for these two bases; my long term plan is to fit the motors and trucks with longer universals and mount them on the two longer brass bases I bought from the same seller. 

              Chris B.



              From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Wed, June 9, 2010 4:39:34 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] trolley drives

               

              Chris B wrote:

              >
              >
              > Gerold,
              > You're right for sure about the vert drive, though it did show up all
              > over, I have a 1st gen Athearn RDC drive with multi geared truck and
              > vert motor drive.
              >
              > maybe you can help me I'd two Samhsongsa (sp) powered "low profile"
              > brass traction frames I recently got on ebay.
              >
              Chris,
              I think I saw them... considered to bid but passed;have spent already to
              much last month.

              Send me the pictures , on or off list... will check. There isnt much
              choice... not many trolleys built in the Samhongsa era; MTS comes to my
              mind but all the MTS models I know better had Ajin drives. Maybe if I
              see the pictures again.

              Gerold





              Group: vintageHO Message: 14359 From: Douglas Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: Pittman Bride and Groom
              I recently acquired a plastic Pittman HO-scale Bride and Groom interurban set in its original box and an almost identical loose whitemetal "groom" (motor car) body shell with some non-factory-original detailing, including an after-market pantograph. Neither is in its pristine colors or has a motor truck.

              Could anyone address the history, prototype, and what might be an appropriate restoration? Any particular frailties?

              Thanks,
              Doug McKercher
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14360 From: Roger Aultman Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Pittman Bride and Groom
              I recently had a set that had both cars in plastic, they looked like Hobbyline shells with round windows added to the ends plusd the pan and single truck drive.  My guess is that someone substituted a original John English metal coach for the plastic Hobbyline.  A Bowser trolley drive might be adapted asuitabvle pan  may be availkable from a traction supplier.  A search on PRR MU cars should turn up some  pictures.   Roger Aultman
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Douglas
              Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 12:54 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pittman Bride and Groom

               

              I recently acquired a plastic Pittman HO-scale Bride and Groom interurban set in its original box and an almost identical loose whitemetal "groom" (motor car) body shell with some non-factory-original detailing, including an after-market pantograph. Neither is in its pristine colors or has a motor truck.

              Could anyone address the history, prototype, and what might be an appropriate restoration? Any particular frailties?

              Thanks,
              Doug McKercher

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14361 From: Chris B Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: ebay ID?






              oh man do I wish I could build this monster and put it to work on my all tarnished brass railroad!!! wow!!! 


              Item image
               

              0 Bids$9.00Listed:Jun-12 11:



              From: Douglas <baddog@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, June 12, 2010 1:54:49 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pittman Bride and Groom

               

              I recently acquired a plastic Pittman HO-scale Bride and Groom interurban set in its original box and an almost identical loose whitemetal "groom" (motor car) body shell with some non-factory-original detailing, including an after-market pantograph. Neither is in its pristine colors or has a motor truck.

              Could anyone address the history, prototype, and what might be an appropriate restoration? Any particular frailties?

              Thanks,
              Doug McKercher


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14362 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/12/2010
              Subject: Re: ebay ID?
              I stumbled across one of those 2-3 years ago. 

              She's massively heavy.

              Mines not running yet. I got it with a Varney economy Pacific chassis under her. But she has no motor nor the critical drive gear that would be on that motor. No tender either.

              So she must have been for over 60 years before I got her.

              I suppose I should put a suitable NWSL gear box on her and get her running. 

              I think I found some suitable catalog images of her in HO-Seeker. One of those is a line drawing as a side view and is good enough to make a correct copy of the Varney under the running board streamlining panel.

              I would like some more of her, and suspect my best solution is to cold-cast some Alumilite duplicates to get those. If I was a bit more devious I'd make a first copy to putty and surface smooth, then make a new mold of the sheet-metal-like surface model.

              Those would sure look nice on some swap meet Mantua Pacific chassis's, with lots of weight added to the cold cast boilers.

              Maybe this Fall........

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              On Jun 12, 2010, at 3:33 PM, Chris B wrote:









              oh man do I wish I could build this monster and put it to work on my all tarnished brass railroad!!! wow!!!  


              Item image
               

              0 Bids$9.00Listed:Jun-12 11:

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14363 From: CinderCrusher Date: 6/15/2010
              Subject: Re: ebay ID?
              If you would like to see one of these streamlined Varneys in operating condition, take a look at the second photo in my Cinder Valley album. It has the original Varney economy Pacific chassis although I am presently exploring the possibility of changing the drivers to a newer RP-25 profile.

              My side skirting is not exactly like the original. It was missing when I acquired the model and I made my own from sheet brass.

              Bill DeFoe



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
              >
              > I stumbled across one of those 2-3 years ago.
              >
              > She's massively heavy.
              >
              > Mines not running yet. I got it with a Varney economy Pacific chassis
              > under her. But she has no motor nor the critical drive gear that would
              > be on that motor. No tender either.
              >
              > So she must have been for over 60 years before I got her.
              >
              > I suppose I should put a suitable NWSL gear box on her and get her
              > running.
              >
              > I think I found some suitable catalog images of her in HO-Seeker. One
              > of those is a line drawing as a side view and is good enough to make a
              > correct copy of the Varney under the running board streamlining panel.
              >
              > I would like some more of her, and suspect my best solution is to cold-
              > cast some Alumilite duplicates to get those. If I was a bit more
              > devious I'd make a first copy to putty and surface smooth, then make a
              > new mold of the sheet-metal-like surface model.
              >
              > Those would sure look nice on some swap meet Mantua Pacific chassis's,
              > with lots of weight added to the cold cast boilers.
              >
              > Maybe this Fall........
              >
              > Best to ya,
              > Mike Bauers
              > Milwaukee, Wi
              >
              > On Jun 12, 2010, at 3:33 PM, Chris B wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > oh man do I wish I could build this monster and put it to work on my
              > > all tarnished brass railroad!!! wow!!!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Brass Train Engine Shell Locomotive HO Varney?
              > >
              > >
              > > 0 Bids $9.00 Listed:Jun-12 11:
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14364 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/15/2010
              Subject: Re: ebay ID?
              Here is one of mine. 

              http://m.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4286812770/in/set-72157623116890157/

              I have two and the shells are slightly different in their moldings from the factory. Sean

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jun 15, 2010, at 11:02 AM, "CinderCrusher" <defoe242@...> wrote:

               

              If you would like to see one of these streamlined Varneys in operating condition, take a look at the second photo in my Cinder Valley album. It has the original Varney economy Pacific chassis although I am presently exploring the possibility of changing the drivers to a newer RP-25 profile.

              My side skirting is not exactly like the original. It was missing when I acquired the model and I made my own from sheet brass.

              Bill DeFoe

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
              >
              > I stumbled across one of those 2-3 years ago.
              >
              > She's massively heavy.
              >
              > Mines not running yet. I got it with a Varney economy Pacific chassis
              > under her. But she has no motor nor the critical drive gear that would
              > be on that motor. No tender either.
              >
              > So she must have been for over 60 years before I got her.
              >
              > I suppose I should put a suitable NWSL gear box on her and get her
              > running.
              >
              > I think I found some suitable catalog images of her in HO-Seeker. One
              > of those is a line drawing as a side view and is good enough to make a
              > correct copy of the Varney under the running board streamlining panel.
              >
              > I would like some more of her, and suspect my best solution is to cold-
              > cast some Alumilite duplicates to get those. If I was a bit more
              > devious I'd make a first copy to putty and surface smooth, then make a
              > new mold of the sheet-metal-like surface model.
              >
              > Those would sure look nice on some swap meet Mantua Pacific chassis's,
              > with lots of weight added to the cold cast boilers.
              >
              > Maybe this Fall........
              >
              > Best to ya,
              > Mike Bauers
              > Milwaukee, Wi
              >
              > On Jun 12, 2010, at 3:33 PM, Chris B wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > oh man do I wish I could build this monster and put it to work on my
              > > all tarnished brass railroad!!! wow!!!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Brass Train Engine Shell Locomotive HO Varney?
              > >
              > >
              > > 0 Bids $9.00 Listed:Jun-12 11:
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14365 From: jim heckard Date: 6/15/2010
              Subject: Varney Streamlined Hudson
                 Here are pictures of one of my streamlined Varney boilers. This one is the 200k 4-6-4 Economy Rigid frame streamlined Hudson from 1948.
               
                                   Jim H.
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14366 From: jim heckard Date: 6/16/2010
              Subject: Real vs. Reproduction
                 
               
                         A few days ago a discussion took place concerning fake parts. If my memory serves me right it had to do with Red Ball items. There was a seller on Ebay selling repro parts as original. I want to add to this about "Buyer Beware"
               
                      The pictures I sent are of a Varney # 410 Streamlined 4-8-4 Electric Locomotive.  This was made in July 1938  ( Varney Greenberg book ). The original came with no pantographs but were sold separately lately. Paperwork for it also appears in HOseeker. This story for now will deal with the body only.
               
                     Do others out there have one?  Do you know if it is original or repro ( fake)?  Can you be sure ?  If one came on Ebay would you buy it no matter what ?
               
                     It is my understanding that the original die is in the hands of Lew English / Bowser. It is no longer in any shape to be used. Supposedly years ago after acquiring the die some bodies were reproduced with the Bowser name inside the roof. Somewhere along the lines another person used one ( real or fake I don't know ) to make reproductions and tried to sell them. Some appeared on Ebay and where listed as original but turned out to be copies and the selling of them halted.
               
                    The real # 410 body is a rare and valuable item even without the drive which you could create using a Varney 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 mechanism preferably the pre war versions. I personally only know of 3 bodies that have been verified as original including mine. No I didn't verify it myself but many old-timers including members of the HOSC&H - SIG did as have the author and certain contributors to the Greenberg Guide to Varney trains. Believe me I got it in writing. Yes there could be more but not many were made.
               
                   I want to caution anyone who is offered one or sees one for sale ( and it won't be cheap) to try to get some verification of it's originality. Just a warning of  " Caveat Emptor / Buyer Beware ".
               
                                                           Jim H
               
               
                   
               
                     
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14367 From: greg10562 Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Tyco Wrecking Crane
              I acquired a Tyco crane from someone who was getting rid of an old HO train set. It is the very familiar red Santa Fe crane. Does anyone know if there was there a prototype for this crane? Has anyone successfully kitbashed or superdetailed it?
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14368 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
              Yes, I did a kitbash on it.  I made a pile driver out of it.  I have pics somewhere.  Give me a day and I will post them.  Also,  I have kitbashed a heavy duty flatcar for steel ingots used in my forging operation in my steel mill.  That was super easy.  And there is a protoype for that flatcar.  I have an old B&W photo with a huge gear on it from Mesta.  I would like to find about 5 more of those car bodis to make a few more cars.  They are perfect.  I will post pics.  dont have them on me right now. 
               
              Paul
               
               

              --- On Thu, 6/17/10, greg10562 <greg10562@...> wrote:

              From: greg10562 <greg10562@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Tyco Wrecking Crane
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, June 17, 2010, 7:59 AM

               
              I acquired a Tyco crane from someone who was getting rid of an old HO train set. It is the very familiar red Santa Fe crane. Does anyone know if there was there a prototype for this crane? Has anyone successfully kitbashed or superdetailed it?


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14369 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Real vs. Reproduction [2 Attachments]



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 1:50:42 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction [2 Attachments]

               

                 
               
                         A few days ago a discussion took place concerning fake parts. If my memory serves me right it had to do with Red Ball items. There was a seller on Ebay selling repro parts as original. I want to add to this about "Buyer Beware"
               
                      The pictures I sent are of a Varney # 410 Streamlined 4-8-4 Electric Locomotive.  This was made in July 1938  ( Varney Greenberg book ). The original came with no pantographs but were sold separately lately. Paperwork for it also appears in HOseeker. This story for now will deal with the body only.
               
                     Do others out there have one?  Do you know if it is original or repro ( fake)?  Can you be sure ?  If one came on Ebay would you buy it no matter what ?
               
                     It is my understanding that the original die is in the hands of Lew English / Bowser. It is no longer in any shape to be used. Supposedly years ago after acquiring the die some bodies were reproduced with the Bowser name inside the roof. Somewhere along the lines another person used one ( real or fake I don't know ) to make reproductions and tried to sell them. Some appeared on Ebay and where listed as original but turned out to be copies and the selling of them halted.
               
                    The real # 410 body is a rare and valuable item even without the drive which you could create using a Varney 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 mechanism preferably the pre war versions. I personally only know of 3 bodies that have been verified as original including mine. No I didn't verify it myself but many old-timers including members of the HOSC&H - SIG did as have the author and certain contributors to the Greenberg Guide to Varney trains. Believe me I got it in writing. Yes there could be more but not many were made.
               
                   I want to caution anyone who is offered one or sees one for sale ( and it won't be cheap) to try to get some verification of it's originality. Just a warning of  " Caveat Emptor / Buyer Beware ".
               
                                                           Jim H
               
               
                   
               
                     

              Hi Jim,

               

              I saw one of the reproductions on eBay a few years back, do not remember if it had any Bowser markings, but the seller clearly stated that it was a later casting and not an original.  As I recall, there was some competition for it and while it sold for more than my bid, I remember thinking I should have aimed a little higher as the final price was well within my modest means.  Being both a vintage modeler/collector as well as a PRR "juice" fan,  It would have been fun to have and exhibit even if I never find an original Varney. 

               

              W. Jay W.


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14370 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Real vs. Reproduction
              Jim H., Your caution is a good one though, and NOW would likely skip any unmarked copy knowing that all the reproductions did not originate with Bowser as I originally thought.  W jay W.


              From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 5:59:18 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 1:50:42 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction [2 Attachments]

               

                 
               
                         A few days ago a discussion took place concerning fake parts. If my memory serves me right it had to do with Red Ball items. There was a seller on Ebay selling repro parts as original. I want to add to this about "Buyer Beware"
               
                      The pictures I sent are of a Varney # 410 Streamlined 4-8-4 Electric Locomotive.  This was made in July 1938  ( Varney Greenberg book ). The original came with no pantographs but were sold separately lately. Paperwork for it also appears in HOseeker. This story for now will deal with the body only.
               
                     Do others out there have one?  Do you know if it is original or repro ( fake)?  Can you be sure ?  If one came on Ebay would you buy it no matter what ?
               
                     It is my understanding that the original die is in the hands of Lew English / Bowser. It is no longer in any shape to be used. Supposedly years ago after acquiring the die some bodies were reproduced with the Bowser name inside the roof. Somewhere along the lines another person used one ( real or fake I don't know ) to make reproductions and tried to sell them. Some appeared on Ebay and where listed as original but turned out to be copies and the selling of them halted.
               
                    The real # 410 body is a rare and valuable item even without the drive which you could create using a Varney 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 mechanism preferably the pre war versions. I personally only know of 3 bodies that have been verified as original including mine. No I didn't verify it myself but many old-timers including members of the HOSC&H - SIG did as have the author and certain contributors to the Greenberg Guide to Varney trains. Believe me I got it in writing. Yes there could be more but not many were made.
               
                   I want to caution anyone who is offered one or sees one for sale ( and it won't be cheap) to try to get some verification of it's originality. Just a warning of  " Caveat Emptor / Buyer Beware ".
               
                                                           Jim H
               
               
                   
               
                     

              Hi Jim,

               

              I saw one of the reproductions on eBay a few years back, do not remember if it had any Bowser markings, but the seller clearly stated that it was a later casting and not an original.  As I recall, there was some competition for it and while it sold for more than my bid, I remember thinking I should have aimed a little higher as the final price was well within my modest means.  Being both a vintage modeler/collector as well as a PRR "juice" fan,  It would have been fun to have and exhibit even if I never find an original Varney. 

               

              W. Jay W.



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14371 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Repr
              What is a Varney # 410 body ?? 
               
              Just my for my own curiosity..
              Thanks,
              Sean


              From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 6:04:16 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction

               

              Jim H., Your caution is a good one though, and NOW would likely skip any unmarked copy knowing that all the reproductions did not originate with Bowser as I originally thought.  W jay W.


              From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 5:59:18 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 1:50:42 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction [2 Attachments]

               

                 
               
                         A few days ago a discussion took place concerning fake parts. If my memory serves me right it had to do with Red Ball items. There was a seller on Ebay selling repro parts as original. I want to add to this about "Buyer Beware"
               
                      The pictures I sent are of a Varney # 410 Streamlined 4-8-4 Electric Locomotive.  This was made in July 1938  ( Varney Greenberg book ). The original came with no pantographs but were sold separately lately. Paperwork for it also appears in HOseeker. This story for now will deal with the body only.
               
                     Do others out there have one?  Do you know if it is original or repro ( fake)?  Can you be sure ?  If one came on Ebay would you buy it no matter what ?
               
                     It is my understanding that the original die is in the hands of Lew English / Bowser. It is no longer in any shape to be used. Supposedly years ago after acquiring the die some bodies were reproduced with the Bowser name inside the roof. Somewhere along the lines another person used one ( real or fake I don't know ) to make reproductions and tried to sell them. Some appeared on Ebay and where listed as original but turned out to be copies and the selling of them halted.
               
                    The real # 410 body is a rare and valuable item even without the drive which you could create using a Varney 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 mechanism preferably the pre war versions. I personally only know of 3 bodies that have been verified as original including mine. No I didn't verify it myself but many old-timers including members of the HOSC&H - SIG did as have the author and certain contributors to the Greenberg Guide to Varney trains. Believe me I got it in writing. Yes there could be more but not many were made.
               
                   I want to caution anyone who is offered one or sees one for sale ( and it won't be cheap) to try to get some verification of it's originality. Just a warning of  " Caveat Emptor / Buyer Beware ".
               
                                                           Jim H
               
               
                   
               
                     

              Hi Jim,

               

              I saw one of the reproductions on eBay a few years back, do not remember if it had any Bowser markings, but the seller clearly stated that it was a later casting and not an original.  As I recall, there was some competition for it and while it sold for more than my bid, I remember thinking I should have aimed a little higher as the final price was well within my modest means.  Being both a vintage modeler/collector as well as a PRR "juice" fan,  It would have been fun to have and exhibit even if I never find an original Varney. 

               

              W. Jay W.




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14372 From: jim heckard Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Re: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs.
              
               Sean,
               
                 The # 410 was a designation number that Dave Spanagel and  helpers assigned to the Varney streamlined electric body that I sent pictures of.  Just like a lot of the pre war Varney steam there were no original numbers like later items.  If you have the Varney Guide you will see many items in brackets  [ 410 ]  with an assigned number when the Greenberg Varney Guide was published.
               
                                      Jim H
               
                  
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 6:09 PM
              Subject: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction

               

              What is a Varney # 410 body ?? 
               
              Just my for my own curiosity..
              Thanks,
              Sean


              From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 6:04:16 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction

               

              Jim H., Your caution is a good one though, and NOW would likely skip any unmarked copy knowing that all the reproductions did not originate with Bowser as I originally thought.  W jay W.


              From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 5:59:18 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 1:50:42 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction [2 Attachments]

               

                 
               
                         A few days ago a discussion took place concerning fake parts. If my memory serves me right it had to do with Red Ball items. There was a seller on Ebay selling repro parts as original. I want to add to this about "Buyer Beware"
               
                      The pictures I sent are of a Varney # 410 Streamlined 4-8-4 Electric Locomotive.  This was made in July 1938  ( Varney Greenberg book ). The original came with no pantographs but were sold separately lately. Paperwork for it also appears in HOseeker. This story for now will deal with the body only.
               
                     Do others out there have one?  Do you know if it is original or repro ( fake)?  Can you be sure ?  If one came on Ebay would you buy it no matter what ?
               
                     It is my understanding that the original die is in the hands of Lew English / Bowser. It is no longer in any shape to be used. Supposedly years ago after acquiring the die some bodies were reproduced with the Bowser name inside the roof. Somewhere along the lines another person used one ( real or fake I don't know ) to make reproductions and tried to sell them. Some appeared on Ebay and where listed as original but turned out to be copies and the selling of them halted.
               
                    The real # 410 body is a rare and valuable item even without the drive which you could create using a Varney 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 mechanism preferably the pre war versions. I personally only know of 3 bodies that have been verified as original including mine. No I didn't verify it myself but many old-timers including members of the HOSC&H - SIG did as have the author and certain contributors to the Greenberg Guide to Varney trains. Believe me I got it in writing. Yes there could be more but not many were made.
               
                   I want to caution anyone who is offered one or sees one for sale ( and it won't be cheap) to try to get some verification of it's originality. Just a warning of  " Caveat Emptor / Buyer Beware ".
               
                                                           Jim H
               
               
                   
               
                     

              Hi Jim,

               

              I saw one of the reproductions on eBay a few years back, do not remember if it had any Bowser markings, but the seller clearly stated that it was a later casting and not an original.  As I recall, there was some competition for it and while it sold for more than my bid, I remember thinking I should have aimed a little higher as the final price was well within my modest means.  Being both a vintage modeler/collector as well as a PRR "juice" fan,  It would have been fun to have and exhibit even if I never find an original Varney. 

               

              W. Jay W.




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14373 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Re: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs.
              Hi Sean and All,
               
              The locomotive is a somewhat stylized representation of a PRR GG-1 electric locomotive, but with a rigid, four axel set of drivers like the similar bodied prototype PRR R-1 electric.
               
              Here is a page from the 1939 Varney Catalog courtesy Foothill Short Line Rwy on HO Seeker:
               
               
              W Jay W.


              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 6:09:34 PM
              Subject: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction

               

              What is a Varney # 410 body ?? 
               
              Just my for my own curiosity..
              Thanks,
              Sean


              From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 6:04:16 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction

               

              Jim H., Your caution is a good one though, and NOW would likely skip any unmarked copy knowing that all the reproductions did not originate with Bowser as I originally thought.  W jay W.


              From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 5:59:18 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 1:50:42 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction [2 Attachments]

               

                 
               
                         A few days ago a discussion took place concerning fake parts. If my memory serves me right it had to do with Red Ball items. There was a seller on Ebay selling repro parts as original. I want to add to this about "Buyer Beware"
               
                      The pictures I sent are of a Varney # 410 Streamlined 4-8-4 Electric Locomotive.  This was made in July 1938  ( Varney Greenberg book ). The original came with no pantographs but were sold separately lately. Paperwork for it also appears in HOseeker. This story for now will deal with the body only.
               
                     Do others out there have one?  Do you know if it is original or repro ( fake)?  Can you be sure ?  If one came on Ebay would you buy it no matter what ?
               
                     It is my understanding that the original die is in the hands of Lew English / Bowser. It is no longer in any shape to be used. Supposedly years ago after acquiring the die some bodies were reproduced with the Bowser name inside the roof. Somewhere along the lines another person used one ( real or fake I don't know ) to make reproductions and tried to sell them. Some appeared on Ebay and where listed as original but turned out to be copies and the selling of them halted.
               
                    The real # 410 body is a rare and valuable item even without the drive which you could create using a Varney 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 mechanism preferably the pre war versions. I personally only know of 3 bodies that have been verified as original including mine. No I didn't verify it myself but many old-timers including members of the HOSC&H - SIG did as have the author and certain contributors to the Greenberg Guide to Varney trains. Believe me I got it in writing. Yes there could be more but not many were made.
               
                   I want to caution anyone who is offered one or sees one for sale ( and it won't be cheap) to try to get some verification of it's originality. Just a warning of  " Caveat Emptor / Buyer Beware ".
               
                                                           Jim H
               
               
                   
               
                     

              Hi Jim,

               

              I saw one of the reproductions on eBay a few years back, do not remember if it had any Bowser markings, but the seller clearly stated that it was a later casting and not an original.  As I recall, there was some competition for it and while it sold for more than my bid, I remember thinking I should have aimed a little higher as the final price was well within my modest means.  Being both a vintage modeler/collector as well as a PRR "juice" fan,  It would have been fun to have and exhibit even if I never find an original Varney. 

               

              W. Jay W.





              Group: vintageHO Message: 14374 From: jim heckard Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Varney Streamlined Electric
              Sean,
               
                  While you probably know about it if you go to HOseeker - Literature - Varney - Click on engine diagrams/ part numbers and then GG-1 prewar  This takes you deeper into Varney information. At the bottom left corner are the two sheets for this Varney streamlined electric which has "Suggested by the GG-1"  as the reason why it is referred to as a GG-1 but is really closer to an R-1.
               
               
                                                                        Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14375 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Electric
              Ok,
               
              I understand now. The 420 is Varney's version of thr "GG1"...right?
               
              Ok, another question... Inspired from thr HOseeker page...
               
              Does the Varney 0-8-0 really exist..?   I mean, was it ever provided in kit form or did you have to make it from consolidation/mikado parts??
               
              Been wanting one, but I have not seen any ever listed. I can certainly make one, but would that be correct to do?
               
              Thanks in advance..
              Sean


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 7:55:26 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Electric

               

              Sean,
               
                  While you probably know about it if you go to HOseeker - Literature - Varney - Click on engine diagrams/ part numbers and then GG-1 prewar  This takes you deeper into Varney information. At the bottom left corner are the two sheets for this Varney streamlined electric which has "Suggested by the GG-1"  as the reason why it is referred to as a GG-1 but is really closer to an R-1.
               
               
                                                                        Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14376 From: jim heckard Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Electric
              
              Sean,
               
                   410 ( not 420 ) is the Varney streamlined electric used in the Greenberg /Spanagel / Varney book that got called the GG-1.
               
                   Answer to your second question. The 0-8-0, numbered by Spanagel as [ # 250 ],  was the Consolidation minus the front truck and using a special Varney switcher pilot.  According to the Varney Greenburg Guide it first appeared in 1938 - 1940 ( 3 rail ) and 1940 -1942 ( 2 rail ) both as kits and assembled. You could create your own easily if you could find that Varney switcher pilot part or a very similar part. I usually see it with the [ # 765 ] metal slope back tender.
               
                                                                  Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 8:40 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Electric

               

              Ok,
               
              I understand now. The 420 is Varney's version of thr "GG1"...right?
               
              Ok, another question... Inspired from thr HOseeker page...
               
              Does the Varney 0-8-0 really exist..?   I mean, was it ever provided in kit form or did you have to make it from consolidation/ mikado parts??
               
              Been wanting one, but I have not seen any ever listed. I can certainly make one, but would that be correct to do?
               
              Thanks in advance..
              Sean


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 7:55:26 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Electric

               

              Sean,
               
                  While you probably know about it if you go to HOseeker - Literature - Varney - Click on engine diagrams/ part numbers and then GG-1 prewar  This takes you deeper into Varney information. At the bottom left corner are the two sheets for this Varney streamlined electric which has "Suggested by the GG-1"  as the reason why it is referred to as a GG-1 but is really closer to an R-1.
               
               
                                                                        Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14377 From: Ken Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: PRR R1 was Re: Varney Streamlined Electric
              Guys
              No one has mentioned that this is a representative of a PRR R1. The Pennsy had one 4-8-4 The R1. From a manufacturing standpoint this was probably easiest having a 4 axle chassis. Please google image a "PRR R1" The GG1 issue of Classic Trains shows the chronology of the streamlined steeple cab design.
              Ken

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sean,
              >
              > 410 ( not 420 ) is the Varney streamlined electric used in the Greenberg /Spanagel / Varney book that got called the GG-1.
              >
              > Answer to your second question. The 0-8-0, numbered by Spanagel as [ # 250 ], was the Consolidation minus the front truck and using a special Varney switcher pilot. According to the Varney Greenburg Guide it first appeared in 1938 - 1940 ( 3 rail ) and 1940 -1942 ( 2 rail ) both as kits and assembled. You could create your own easily if you could find that Varney switcher pilot part or a very similar part. I usually see it with the [ # 765 ] metal slope back tender.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Sean Naylor
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 8:40 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Electric
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Ok,
              >
              > I understand now. The 420 is Varney's version of thr "GG1"...right?
              >
              > Ok, another question... Inspired from thr HOseeker page...
              >
              > Does the Varney 0-8-0 really exist..? I mean, was it ever provided in kit form or did you have to make it from consolidation/mikado parts??
              >
              > Been wanting one, but I have not seen any ever listed. I can certainly make one, but would that be correct to do?
              >
              > Thanks in advance..
              > Sean
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 7:55:26 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Electric
              >
              >
              >
              > Sean,
              >
              > While you probably know about it if you go to HOseeker - Literature - Varney - Click on engine diagrams/ part numbers and then GG-1 prewar This takes you deeper into Varney information. At the bottom left corner are the two sheets for this Varney streamlined electric which has "Suggested by the GG-1" as the reason why it is referred to as a GG-1 but is really closer to an R-1.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14378 From: Mike Bauers Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Re: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs.
              A delightful creation!!

              It reminds me of a Website that contains a good number of detailed
              drawings of proposed diesel locomotives of circa 20's-30's. The
              styling is not that different from the several proposals.

              Which I believe were PRR designs.......

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              On Jun 17, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Jay Wanczyk wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hi Sean and All,
              >
              > The locomotive is a somewhat stylized representation of a PRR GG-1
              > electric locomotive, but with a rigid, four axel set of drivers like
              > the similar bodied prototype PRR R-1 electric.
              >
              > Here is a page from the 1939 Varney Catalog courtesy Foothill Short
              > Line Rwy on HO Seeker:
              >
              > www.hoseeker.org/varneyinformation/varney1939catalogpg07.jpg
              >
              > W Jay W.
              >
              > From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 6:09:34 PM
              > Subject: What is a Varney # 410 body ?? Was Re: [vintageHO] Real vs.
              > Reproduction
              >
              >
              > What is a Varney # 410 body ??
              >
              > Just my for my own curiosity..
              > Thanks,
              > Sean
              >
              > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              > Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 6:04:16 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim H., Your caution is a good one though, and NOW would likely skip
              > any unmarked copy knowing that all the reproductions did not
              > originate with Bowser as I originally thought. W jay W.
              >
              > From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              > Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 5:59:18 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              > Sent: Wed, June 16, 2010 1:50:42 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Real vs. Reproduction [2 Attachments]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > A few days ago a discussion took place concerning fake
              > parts. If my memory serves me right it had to do with Red Ball
              > items. There was a seller on Ebay selling repro parts as original. I
              > want to add to this about "Buyer Beware"
              >
              > The pictures I sent are of a Varney # 410 Streamlined 4-8-4
              > Electric Locomotive. This was made in July 1938 ( Varney Greenberg
              > book ). The original came with no pantographs but were sold
              > separately lately. Paperwork for it also appears in HOseeker. This
              > story for now will deal with the body only.
              >
              > Do others out there have one? Do you know if it is original
              > or repro ( fake)? Can you be sure ? If one came on Ebay would you
              > buy it no matter what ?
              >
              > It is my understanding that the original die is in the hands
              > of Lew English / Bowser. It is no longer in any shape to be used.
              > Supposedly years ago after acquiring the die some bodies were
              > reproduced with the Bowser name inside the roof. Somewhere along the
              > lines another person used one ( real or fake I don't know ) to make
              > reproductions and tried to sell them. Some appeared on Ebay and
              > where listed as original but turned out to be copies and the selling
              > of them halted.
              >
              > The real # 410 body is a rare and valuable item even without
              > the drive which you could create using a Varney 2-8-0 or 2-8-2
              > mechanism preferably the pre war versions. I personally only know of
              > 3 bodies that have been verified as original including mine. No I
              > didn't verify it myself but many old-timers including members of the
              > HOSC&H - SIG did as have the author and certain contributors to the
              > Greenberg Guide to Varney trains. Believe me I got it in writing.
              > Yes there could be more but not many were made.
              >
              > I want to caution anyone who is offered one or sees one for
              > sale ( and it won't be cheap) to try to get some verification of
              > it's originality. Just a warning of " Caveat Emptor / Buyer Beware ".
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Jim,
              >
              >
              > I saw one of the reproductions on eBay a few years back, do not
              > remember if it had any Bowser markings, but the seller clearly
              > stated that it was a later casting and not an original. As I
              > recall, there was some competition for it and while it sold for more
              > than my bid, I remember thinking I should have aimed a little higher
              > as the final price was well within my modest means. Being both a
              > vintage modeler/collector as well as a PRR "juice" fan, It would
              > have been fun to have and exhibit even if I never find an original
              > Varney.
              >
              >
              > W. Jay W.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14379 From: John Barlow Date: 6/17/2010
              Subject: Re: PRR R1 was Re: Varney Streamlined Electric
              The R1 was the GG1's competitor but did track as well as the GG1. The thing still was used by the PRR for 25 years as a "one-of-a-kind."  The R1 was by Westinghouse out of Pittsburgh; the GG1 was originally a General Electric creation...or major input...not out of Pittsburgh.
               
              John Barlow
               
              *****************************************************************************************************
              --- On Thu, 6/17/10, Ken <k4sb@...> wrote:

              From: Ken <k4sb@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] PRR R1 was Re: Varney Streamlined Electric
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, June 17, 2010, 8:47 PM

               
              Guys
              No one has mentioned that this is a representative of a PRR R1. The Pennsy had one 4-8-4 The R1. From a manufacturing standpoint this was probably easiest having a 4 axle chassis. Please google image a "PRR R1" The GG1 issue of Classic Trains shows the chronology of the streamlined steeple cab design.
              Ken

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sean,
              >
              > 410 ( not 420 ) is the Varney streamlined electric used in the Greenberg /Spanagel / Varney book that got called the GG-1.
              >
              > Answer to your second question. The 0-8-0, numbered by Spanagel as [ # 250 ], was the Consolidation minus the front truck and using a special Varney switcher pilot. According to the Varney Greenburg Guide it first appeared in 1938 - 1940 ( 3 rail ) and 1940 -1942 ( 2 rail ) both as kits and assembled. You could create your own easily if you could find that Varney switcher pilot part or a very similar part. I usually see it with the [ # 765 ] metal slope back tender.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Sean Naylor
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 8:40 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Electric
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Ok,
              >
              > I understand now. The 420 is Varney's version of thr "GG1"...right?
              >
              > Ok, another question... Inspired from thr HOseeker page...
              >
              > Does the Varney 0-8-0 really exist..? I mean, was it ever provided in kit form or did you have to make it from consolidation/mikado parts??
              >
              > Been wanting one, but I have not seen any ever listed. I can certainly make one, but would that be correct to do?
              >
              > Thanks in advance..
              > Sean
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 7:55:26 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Electric
              >
              >
              >
              > Sean,
              >
              > While you probably know about it if you go to HOseeker - Literature - Varney - Click on engine diagrams/ part numbers and then GG-1 prewar This takes you deeper into Varney information. At the bottom left corner are the two sheets for this Varney streamlined electric which has "Suggested by the GG-1" as the reason why it is referred to as a GG-1 but is really closer to an R-1.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14380 From: rcjge Date: 6/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
              Hi Paul:

              I'm a moderator on the Tyco Collector's Forum and I would love to see the Tyco Kitbashed Pile Driver!

              Best,
              Gareth


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Pawel Artmeijer <anaidni62@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes, I did a kitbash on it.  I made a pile driver out of it.  I have pics somewhere.  Give me a day and I will post them.  Also,  I have kitbashed a heavy duty flatcar for steel ingots used in my forging operation in my steel mill.  That was super easy.  And there is a protoype for that flatcar.  I have an old B&W photo with a huge gear on it from Mesta.  I would like to find about 5 more of those car bodis to make a few more cars.  They are perfect.  I will post pics.  dont have them on me right now. 
              >  
              > Paul
              >  
              >  
              > . 
              > --- On Thu, 6/17/10, greg10562 <greg10562@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: greg10562 <greg10562@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Tyco Wrecking Crane
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, June 17, 2010, 7:59 AM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > I acquired a Tyco crane from someone who was getting rid of an old HO train set. It is the very familiar red Santa Fe crane. Does anyone know if there was there a prototype for this crane? Has anyone successfully kitbashed or superdetailed it?
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14381 From: greg10562 Date: 6/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
              Gareth,
              What is the name or provide the link to you Tyco Collectors Forum. I have a few Tyco items I'd like to share.
              Greg

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Paul:
              >
              > I'm a moderator on the Tyco Collector's Forum and I would love to see the Tyco Kitbashed Pile Driver!
              >
              > Best,
              > Gareth
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Pawel Artmeijer <anaidni62@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Yes, I did a kitbash on it.  I made a pile driver out of it.  I have pics somewhere.  Give me a day and I will post them.  Also,  I have kitbashed a heavy duty flatcar for steel ingots used in my forging operation in my steel mill.  That was super easy.  And there is a protoype for that flatcar.  I have an old B&W photo with a huge gear on it from Mesta.  I would like to find about 5 more of those car bodis to make a few more cars.  They are perfect.  I will post pics.  dont have them on me right now. 
              > >  
              > > Paul
              > >  
              > >  
              > > . 
              > > --- On Thu, 6/17/10, greg10562 <greg10562@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: greg10562 <greg10562@>
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Tyco Wrecking Crane
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Thursday, June 17, 2010, 7:59 AM
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I acquired a Tyco crane from someone who was getting rid of an old HO train set. It is the very familiar red Santa Fe crane. Does anyone know if there was there a prototype for this crane? Has anyone successfully kitbashed or superdetailed it?
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14382 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 6/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
              These are not the best pics.  I had a real old digital camera.  it is based on a UP prototype I found a picture in a book.  The office and support car is easy to recognize.  I took the pics with a first generation freebie digital.  I have a new one and will take more picts with it. 
               
              The box car sits on an old tyco work car flat and is an scrap box car shortend and a Fairmount speeder is usually on it for the Mow crew to ride in.  They must have it out using it when the pic was taken.  I will have to find it.  Enjoy.  Paul  
               
               

              --- On Fri, 6/18/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

              From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, June 18, 2010, 8:45 PM

               
              Hi Paul:

              I'm a moderator on the Tyco Collector's Forum and I would love to see the Tyco Kitbashed Pile Driver!

              Best,
              Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Pawel Artmeijer <anaidni62@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes, I did a kitbash on it.  I made a pile driver out of it.  I have pics somewhere.  Give me a day and I will post them.  Also,  I have kitbashed a heavy duty flatcar for steel ingots used in my forging operation in my steel mill.  That was super easy.  And there is a protoype for that flatcar.  I have an old B&W photo with a huge gear on it from Mesta.  I would like to find about 5 more of those car bodis to make a few more cars.  They are perfect.  I will post pics.  dont have them on me right now. 
              >  
              > Paul
              >  
              >  
              > . 
              > --- On Thu, 6/17/10, greg10562 <greg10562@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: greg10562 <greg10562@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Tyco Wrecking Crane
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, June 17, 2010, 7:59 AM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > I acquired a Tyco crane from someone who was getting rid of an old HO train set. It is the very familiar red Santa Fe crane. Does anyone know if there was there a prototype for this crane? Has anyone successfully kitbashed or superdetailed it?
              >


                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14383 From: rcjge Date: 6/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
              Hey Greg:

              Here you go:

              http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/default.asp?sectionid=0

              Best,
              Gareth



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "greg10562" <greg10562@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gareth,
              > What is the name or provide the link to you Tyco Collectors Forum. I have a few Tyco items I'd like to share.
              > Greg
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14384 From: rcjge Date: 6/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Tyco Wrecking Crane
              Hi there Pawel:

              Love to see the new photo's...

              Best,
              Gareth





              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Pawel Artmeijer <anaidni62@...> wrote:
              >
              > These are not the best pics.  I had a real old digital camera.  it is based on a UP prototype I found a picture in a book.  The office and support car is easy to recognize.  I took the pics with a first generation freebie digital.  I have a new one and will take more picts with it. 
              >  
              > The box car sits on an old tyco work car flat and is an scrap box car shortend and a Fairmount speeder is usually on it for the Mow crew to ride in.  They must have it out using it when the pic was taken.  I will have to find it.  Enjoy.  Paul  
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14385 From: Fred Chlupp Date: 6/20/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Electric

                          Sean- Re Varney 2-8-0 – Pages 48 and 52 of Greenberg’s Guide to Varney Trains have references to a Varney 0-8-0, made from a pre-war Consolidation.  It appears on page 48 that Varney sold this modification.  Fred Chlupp

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor
              Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 6:40 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Electric

               

               

              Ok,

               

              I understand now. The 420 is Varney's version of thr "GG1"...right?

               

              Ok, another question... Inspired from thr HOseeker page...

               

              Does the Varney 0-8-0 really exist..?   I mean, was it ever provided in kit form or did you have to make it from consolidation/ mikado parts??

               

              Been wanting one, but I have not seen any ever listed. I can certainly make one, but would that be correct to do?

               

              Thanks in advance..

              Sean

               


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 7:55:26 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Electric

               

              Sean,

               

                  While you probably know about it if you go to HOseeker - Literature - Varney - Click on engine diagrams/ part numbers and then GG-1 prewar  This takes you deeper into Varney information. At the bottom left corner are the two sheets for this Varney streamlined electric which has "Suggested by the GG-1"  as the reason why it is referred to as a GG-1 but is really closer to an R-1.

               

               

                                                                        Jim H

               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14386 From: jim heckard Date: 6/20/2010
              Subject: TYCO engine modification
               Gareth,
               
               
                      I thought you or your TYCO forum or in fact anyone interested in TYCO might like this engine. It came as a basket case with a number of other items. Since it ran and overall was in decent shape I decided to strip it, add a straight stack to replace the missing stack, let the turned brass domes unpainted and add brass handrail to the engine and tender ( along the top behind the coal load but can't be seen in the pictures ).Since the original engine had a number 3 on the boiler front I just numbered it the same. Wasn't made to resemble any Reading engine but pretty nice anyway.
               
               
                                                        Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14387 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 6/20/2010
              Subject: Lockhart-Laconia car question
              Hi,
              I have a very vintage Lockhart-Laconia automobile freight car kit and am trying to determine what the ends of that car looked like as there appear to be some missing items. There is some embossed type paper with unusual configurations of rivets and what-not that don't look to me to be appropriate for that kind of car end, but who knows? If anyone happens to have that car in their collection I would appreciate some info on that.
               
              Thanks,
              Art W
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14388 From: Chris B Date: 6/20/2010
              Subject: update on vintage W&OD Rosslyn branch WWII era layout
              Hi,  I'm finally making real progress on getting at least a rough main line of track running on my layout.

              Last week I finished laying double track mainline on my around the room multilevel benchwork, and this morning for the first time I was able to watch a solo engine run from the bottom level to the top and back down again without a burp or a hitch.  I've attached some photos and a graphic of the track plan, it's been a little over two years under construction, but it's finally coming along and I believe this is the basic foundation of the final track arrangement.

              today's maiden trip started out from the the lowest level (32" above the floor, kitchen counter height) that will eventually hold the trackage for Rosslyn), went around the room twice as it climbs up two levels to the large area assigned eventually to Bluemont Jct (52" above the floor) and finally around and up to the top level where I hope to put East Falls Church, (62", about the height of the bottom edge of kitchen cabinets) ; and then back down again on the other side of the double track main.

              I'd been fixing little track glitches for days, each time I fixed one that would keep a test engine from completing an unbroken run all the way up and back down again; I'd find another one; but besides the obvious reasons, I wanted to get a continuous run so I could time how long the engine took to complete a full round trip.

              I used some free Atlas layout planning software to design this roller coaster, because calculating the grades and keeping them under 4% was more than I could hope to do by hand or eye;  one of the handy things the software does is calculate the total length of track:  According to the final track plan as built now, without any of the sidings or yard tracks that will be installed over time, the total track length from start to finish is 427 feet, that's a pretty good continuous run for a room that is only 14' x 20'.

              It took three full minutes to complete one unbroken circuit from the bottom to the top and back down again, pretty nice to get this far, only 3 or 4 years to go!

              Last fall when I had some elbow issues, I had to suspend carpentry and was able to make real progress on collecting what brass models are commercially available of almost all of the WWII era motive power roster, with the exception of the Whitcombs #53 and #54. I've managed to get Suydam models of #50 & 51(Baldwin steeple cabs); 41-44 (interurban combines); 45, 46, & 52 (gas electrics) ; 47 - 49 (early phase GE 44 tonners); and suitable suydam drives and brass shells for kitbashed models of 25 and 26 (25 from a wood express reefer and 26 from a wood caboose.  A few of these are in an attached photo shows how I plan to finish the layout, with unpainted tarnished brass models on teak roadbed Tenshodo track, on finished hardwood layers on the current shelves.  I've picked up enough Tenshodo and tru scale track and turnouts to do the whole layout, but it's all cheap steel flex track until the track plan is permanent and I know it works. I've also got enough tin, brass, and diecast freight cars in the works to make up the small volume of cars that made up the frequent but very short 2 or 3 car trains.

              It's taken 2 years to get this far, and only this morning did I figure out a way to really feed a three way junction with busy traffic from three different directions.
              The  new plan calls for trackage leaving Bluemont Jct and going to the far side of the room to another shelf and pantry that will represent Arlington Jct interchange and the line to Potomac Yard.

              Like I said, 3 or 4 years to go, but I retire in 3, so after that I hope to just enjoy running all metal DC engines on all wood and metal track. no scenery planned, but no plastic in the whole room or layout either!

              Chris B.



                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14389 From: man.ukin Date: 6/20/2010
              Subject: FS H0 Scale Bowser Kits
              Hi Guys,

              i have the folowing H0 Scale Items for Sale. I am located in LA, i accept: Paypal +3%
              Moneyorder, Check (sent out after its cleared), Moneygram, Bank, Western Union

              Each Bowser Kit 9$ + shipping

              1. 5 x WM 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1512
              2. 4 x C & O 40' Box Car Kit #3-1028
              3. 3 x DW & P 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1202
              4. 3 x BS 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1059
              5. Mo-Pac Herbie Safety 40' Box Car Kit #3-1034
              6. Erie Lackawanna 50' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1523
              7. 2 x Lehigh Valley 50' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1720
              8. D & H 40' Box Car Kit #3-1120
              9. Central of Georgia 40' Box Car Kit #3-1001
              10. Steel Caboose Car Kit #3-3005
              11. 5 x Florida East C 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1060
              12. D & H 40' Box Car Kit #3-1110
              13. 4 x NYC 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1210
              14. 3 x ACL 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1215
              15. EL 40' 70 Ton Quad Hopper Car Kit #3-2020
              16. WM Chessie EL40' 70 Ton Quad Hopper Car Kit #3-2017
              17. 2 x KCS 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1058
              18. 3 x WABASH 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1208
              19. 4 x WM 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1054
              20. Canadian Nationa 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1004
              21. 3 x ATSF 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1212
              22. 7 x AD & N 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1201
              23. Lehigh Valley 50' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1503
              24. 2 x D & H 40' Box Car Kit #3-1021
              25. B&O 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1012
              26. Green Mountain 40' Box Car Kit #3-1045
              27. 2 x WM 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1071
              28. 3 x A&LM 50' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1509
              29. 53' Higway Trailer Millenium Car Kit #3-5013
              30. 53' Higway Trailer Millenium Car Kit #3-5014
              31. Steel Caboose Kit Reading Car Kit #3-3002
              32. 5 x Atlantic Coastline 40' Box Car Kit #3-1019
              33. 2 x Northhampton & Bath 40' Box Car Kit #3-1050
              34. Norfolk&Western 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1705
              35. 7 x Central Georgia 50' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1207
              36. 3 x ACL 50' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1513
              37. Baltimore & Ohio (B&O) 40' Box Car Kit 3-1017
              38. 5 x ACL 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1216
              39. EL 50' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1512
              40. D & H 40' Box Car Kit #3-1117
              41. 2 x Northfolk Fran 50' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1706
              42. 3 x Ilinois Central 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1206
              43. Tidewater 50 Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1506
              44. 2 x D & H 40' Box Car Kit #3-1125
              45. 2 x EL 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1068
              46. GTW 50' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1703
              47. 3 x AEC 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1049
              48. Northern P 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1203
              49. 2 x CB & Q 50' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1728
              50. NY, NH & H 50' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1727
              51. BS 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1056
              52. Erie 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1217
              53. Union Pacific 40' Box Car Kit #3-1037
              54. 2 x New Haven 40' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1053
              55. Chicago & NM 40' Box Car Kit #3-1024
              56. EJ & E 50' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1702
              57. Southern 40' Double Door Box Car Kit #3-1209
              58. 2 x ACL 50' Single Door Box Car Kit #3-1510


              All Items are mint in Box + shipping (i can ship worldwide)

              Thanks
              Jens Kinne
              man.ukin@...
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14390 From: jim heckard Date: 6/20/2010
              Subject: Re: update on vintage W&OD Rosslyn branch WWII era layout [12 Attach
              Chris B,
               
                   Lookin good. You really have put a lot of work in it including a lot of thought. I like those "Styrofoam" risers for creating the grades.  I must admit I never saw them before. Guess which picture I liked the best. Hint unpainted brass.  Nice job.
               
                                                                   Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 4:50 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] update on vintage W&OD Rosslyn branch WWII era layout [12 Attachments]

               

              Hi,  I'm finally making real progress on getting at least a rough main line of track running on my layout.

              Last week I finished laying double track mainline on my around the room multilevel benchwork, and this morning for the first time I was able to watch a solo engine run from the bottom level to the top and back down again without a burp or a hitch.  I've attached some photos and a graphic of the track plan, it's been a little over two years under construction, but it's finally coming along and I believe this is the basic foundation of the final track arrangement.

              today's maiden trip started out from the the lowest level (32" above the floor, kitchen counter height) that will eventually hold the trackage for Rosslyn), went around the room twice as it climbs up two levels to the large area assigned eventually to Bluemont Jct (52" above the floor) and finally around and up to the top level where I hope to put East Falls Church, (62", about the height of the bottom edge of kitchen cabinets) ; and then back down again on the other side of the double track main.

              I'd been fixing little track glitches for days, each time I fixed one that would keep a test engine from completing an unbroken run all the way up and back down again; I'd find another one; but besides the obvious reasons, I wanted to get a continuous run so I could time how long the engine took to complete a full round trip.

              I used some free Atlas layout planning software to design this roller coaster, because calculating the grades and keeping them under 4% was more than I could hope to do by hand or eye;  one of the handy things the software does is calculate the total length of track:  According to the final track plan as built now, without any of the sidings or yard tracks that will be installed over time, the total track length from start to finish is 427 feet, that's a pretty good continuous run for a room that is only 14' x 20'.

              It took three full minutes to complete one unbroken circuit from the bottom to the top and back down again, pretty nice to get this far, only 3 or 4 years to go!

              Last fall when I had some elbow issues, I had to suspend carpentry and was able to make real progress on collecting what brass models are commercially available of almost all of the WWII era motive power roster, with the exception of the Whitcombs #53 and #54. I've managed to get Suydam models of #50 & 51(Baldwin steeple cabs); 41-44 (interurban combines); 45, 46, & 52 (gas electrics) ; 47 - 49 (early phase GE 44 tonners); and suitable suydam drives and brass shells for kitbashed models of 25 and 26 (25 from a wood express reefer and 26 from a wood caboose.  A few of these are in an attached photo shows how I plan to finish the layout, with unpainted tarnished brass models on teak roadbed Tenshodo track, on finished hardwood layers on the current shelves.  I've picked up enough Tenshodo and tru scale track and turnouts to do the whole layout, but it's all cheap steel flex track until the track plan is permanent and I know it works. I've also got enough tin, brass, and diecast freight cars in the works to make up the small volume of cars that made up the frequent but very short 2 or 3 car trains.

              It's taken 2 years to get this far, and only this morning did I figure out a way to really feed a three way junction with busy traffic from three different directions.
              The  new plan calls for trackage leaving Bluemont Jct and going to the far side of the room to another shelf and pantry that will represent Arlington Jct interchange and the line to Potomac Yard.

              Like I said, 3 or 4 years to go, but I retire in 3, so after that I hope to just enjoy running all metal DC engines on all wood and metal track. no scenery planned, but no plastic in the whole room or layout either!

              Chris B.



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14391 From: Chris B Date: 6/20/2010
              Subject: Re: update on vintage W&OD Rosslyn branch WWII era layout
              Thanks Jim, it's great to be able to just let one run while I putter around the room.  I should say the brass roster will be packed up for some time, but I've got plenty of vintage HO diecast engines and others to run in the meantime.
              MEW 44 tonners, all manner of hobbytowns, including yard switcher drives with Cary S-2 bodies, Iver 70 ton diecast bodies on Keystone 44 ton drives, ABBA Globe F units with diecast shells.
              But my favorite and most dependable runners are a small fleet of 8 early Athearn diesel switchers; metal side frames, cast non-brass flywheels... I run them without the shells, so the bare headlight really lights up the dark corners of the shelves,

              Best of all, IMHO, they all have the much maligned sintered iron wheels;
               (which I always wanted to put on one of my Hobbytowns for maximum traction, since despite their dirt issues, they have more grab than any other wheel metal)
               and since the current rough draft track is not brass or ns, but lifelike cheap steel rail flex track...
              they constantly spark against the rails at all 8 wheels, forget the headlight being an arc welder,
              those wheels throw a constantly changing stream of bright colorful sparks that's truly spectacular! 

              and since the smell of ozone is one of those childhood memories that brings back the earliest days of model train fun,
              that's a special kind of vintage HO experience.

              it's really like nothing else to let 3 or 4 of them run continuously in a darkened layout room;  all different levels, the headlights swinging around, and the sparks jumping like the 4th of July...

              I really will have to shoot some video, I've never seen anything like those engines with sintered iron wheels on steel rail in all my years fooling around with this stuff.

              Chris B.


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 5:01:51 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] update on vintage W&OD Rosslyn branch WWII era layout

               

              Chris B,
               
                   Lookin good. You really have put a lot of work in it including a lot of thought. I like those "Styrofoam" risers for creating the grades.  I must admit I never saw them before. Guess which picture I liked the best. Hint unpainted brass.  Nice job.
               
                                                                   Jim H <


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14392 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Lockhart-Laconia car question
              Hi Art W.
               
              Amazing that I was looking at what must be the same Lockhart-Laconia kit one night late last week, along with another and started to research the prototypes in some of my books.  The sides are very nicely printed, but the printed and embossed card doors and ends on mine lack real definition.  I was thinking of substituting matching Red Ball doors, as a good modeler might have done in the 1940's. 
               
              The ends threw me as all of the prototype photos I found so far of that car number series show a more conventional end - very close to a Silver Streak or certain Red Ball, I forget which now, will recheck tonight.  Both of my kits, the round roof box car and a 36' wood New Haven came without their original boxes or instructions, so are definitely ones that should be built.  
               
              Those strange rivited ends you mentioned, though, still intriegued me and I was gong to do more research on just what they were supposed to represent - possibly they mixed the flat rivited X-29 boxcar ends (if that is what they are supposed to be) with a more modern prototype?
               
              W Jay W.


              From: "luvprr@..." <luvprr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 4:21:12 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Lockhart-Laconia car question

               

              Hi,
              I have a very vintage Lockhart-Laconia automobile freight car kit and am trying to determine what the ends of that car looked like as there appear to be some missing items. There is some embossed type paper with unusual configurations of rivets and what-not that don't look to me to be appropriate for that kind of car end, but who knows? If anyone happens to have that car in their collection I would appreciate some info on that.
               
              Thanks,
              Art W

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14393 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 6/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Lockhart-Laconia car question
              Thanks for the feedback. My idea in building these vintage kits for future appreciation (some encouragement being shown in that respect) by family members is to build them according to "factory specs" and do only a minimal amount of upgrading. I want to show what materials and ideas were presented to the HO modeling public of the times and to show what they look like when expertly done. Of course some kits were so primitive that some upgrading almost has to be done to deflect a negative impression of the present builder! In any case things cleared up a bit for me concerning those car ends when I realized that I was looking at the embossed Bristol paper backwards. It is interesting to try to get inside the heads of those long ago manufacturers and imagine them dealing with a kit design in some quaint office or whatever before quitting at the end of the day and going home to eat supper and listen to the Lone Ranger on their Silvertone radios--or maybe The Great Gildersleave or Henry Aldrich. Well, that's another story. . . .
               
              In a message dated 6/21/2010 2:58:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, the_plainsman@... writes:


              Hi Art W.
               
              Amazing that I was looking at what must be the same Lockhart-Laconia kit one night late last week, along with another and started to research the prototypes in some of my books.  The sides are very nicely printed, but the printed and embossed card doors and ends on mine lack real definition.  I was thinking of substituting matching Red Ball doors, as a good modeler might have done in the 1940's. 
               
              The ends threw me as all of the prototype photos I found so far of that car number series show a more conventional end - very close to a Silver Streak or certain Red Ball, I forget which now, will recheck tonight.  Both of my kits, the round roof box car and a 36' wood New Haven came without their original boxes or instructions, so are definitely ones that should be built.  
               
              Those strange rivited ends you mentioned, though, still intriegued me and I was gong to do more research on just what they were supposed to represent - possibly they mixed the flat rivited X-29 boxcar ends (if that is what they are supposed to be) with a more modern prototype?
               
              W Jay W.


              From: "luvprr@..." <luvprr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 4:21:12 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Lockhart-Laconia car question

               

              Hi,
              I have a very vintage Lockhart-Laconia automobile freight car kit and am trying to determine what the ends of that car looked like as there appear to be some missing items. There is some embossed type paper with unusual configurations of rivets and what-not that don't look to me to be appropriate for that kind of car end, but who knows? If anyone happens to have that car in their collection I would appreciate some info on that.
               
              Thanks,
              Art W

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14394 From: Denny Anspach Date: 6/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Lockhart-Laconia car question
              Art W. writes-

              ...My idea in building these vintage kits for future 
              appreciation .... is to build them according to "factory specs" and do only a minimal 
              amount of upgrading. I want to show what materials and ideas were presented 
              to the HO modeling public of the times and to show what they look like when 
              expertly done. Of course some kits were so primitive that some upgrading 
              almost has to be done to deflect a negative impression of the present 
              builder! 

              Very well put!  The writer accurately poses the conundrum that many of us face with these historical kits and completed cars.

              My own approach to these issues is not hard and fast. My only dictum is "Do no harm", with its corollary: "Replace original parts only in a way that they can be put back on in the future."  

              Old kits:  I build, paint, and complete these kits according to the directions.  I will use modern cements, finishes, techniques and glues if they are proven to be superior, or less damaging, however, as a part of simply  taking considerable pains to correct historical faults, i.e. not repeating mistakes that we already know will cause failure over time. If I substitute modern details, i.e. good trucks and couplers so that I can operate them at will on my layout (otherwise "prototype-modeled"), I bag and tag the originals in the OEM box so that they can be easily changed back when required.

              On occasion, I will fabricate from wire and Bristol board or brass the entire underbody brake system, connecting all of the original K or AB brake details already supplied with the kit.  Ditto with roof or end sill grabs, etc.  I classify these common scale additions simply the exercise of choice and judgement  that any good modeler exercise in any time period, when choosing a goal of modeling scale trains, not toys.  


              The ATSF H.Owen reefer c. 1936-8 that was recently discussed on this list is such a refined model that I have not the slightest embarrassment of letting it reside on the layout mounted on fine modern trucks, semi-scale wheel sets, and scale couplers. All can be easily removed in good time in favor of replacement by contemporaneous model details (if we indeed even know what they might have been!). 

              When pieces are missing:  I exercise my modeling skills to replace/fabricate these pieces either from rough stock, or from details salvaged from other contemporary kits or derelict models.  In this regard, I consciously act as a conscientious and expert modeler might have done in 1938 (for instance) as he or she might have scrounged for parts and materials. In this regard, I will use wood, paper, brass or wire in favor of styrene, or molded parts (although I am tempted at times!).
               
              When kits are crude:  I tend to leave them alone as kits, if only because I know that I will be unsatisfied at the results, and irritated that my time had not been better spent (Bathgate is an example best left in the box!).    Occasionally when I have duplicates, I may well take one of two  crude cars that has some credible features, but that was also once a crude kit, and apply enough new detailing or fabrications to make it look presentable. 

              Denny






              Denny S.  Anspach MD
              Sacramento





              Group: vintageHO Message: 14395 From: rcjge Date: 6/23/2010
              Subject: Re: TYCO engine modification
              Hey Jim:

              Just realised I haven't replie to you. very pretty little thing. Didn't know Tyco ha made that model. Definitely a Tyco not a Mantua?

              -Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14396 From: jim heckard Date: 6/24/2010
              Subject: wanted
               

               
                   I am searching to buy an HO Lindberg EMD 600 ( SW-1 ? ) engine that is factory painted and lettered for the Illinois Central. Since it is factory painted the paint and lettering must be decent or better. While I would like the entire engine ( frame, drive and body ) with or without box I will take the body only.
               
                   Contact me off site at jimheck@....
               
                                                               Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14397 From: Matthew Date: 6/24/2010
              Subject: Re: wanted
              Jim.

              If you find one would you mind posting a photo? I have never seen one of the IC versions -- only photos in the advertisements from the 60s. I have a B&O version but it is my understanding that these were the most common of the paint schemes.

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I am searching to buy an HO Lindberg EMD 600 ( SW-1 ? ) engine that is factory painted and lettered for the Illinois Central. Since it is factory painted the paint and lettering must be decent or better. While I would like the entire engine ( frame, drive and body ) with or without box I will take the body only.
              >
              > Contact me off site at jimheck@...
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14398 From: jim heckard Date: 6/24/2010
              Subject: Re: wanted
              Matt,
               
                  If you go to Tony Cook's site at  www.ho-scaletrains.net and click on the Lindberg list he has a Lindberg Illinois Central with o/b shown.
               
                  I must admit that I never knew there was one. The only road names for this SW-1 I knew for sure were B&O, Santa Fe and C&NW ( all of which I have and are shown with the rest of my entire collection in the Gallery section of  www.hoseeker.net ). I had heard that the was a Pennsylvania one and even seem to remember seeing ads way back for it but have never found one.
               
                                                            Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Matthew
              Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 3:32 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: wanted

               

              Jim.

              If you find one would you mind posting a photo? I have never seen one of the IC versions -- only photos in the advertisements from the 60s. I have a B&O version but it is my understanding that these were the most common of the paint schemes.

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I am searching to buy an HO Lindberg EMD 600 ( SW-1 ? ) engine that is factory painted and lettered for the Illinois Central. Since it is factory painted the paint and lettering must be decent or better. While I would like the entire engine ( frame, drive and body ) with or without box I will take the body only.
              >
              > Contact me off site at jimheck@...
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14399 From: garyp552002 Date: 6/24/2010
              Subject: Revell SW7 Diesel
              Hey Guys,
              I have an old circa 1959 Revell SW7 diesel that needs a motor. Anyone have any ideas as to what to use to repower it and how? I would like to find a junker to get a motor but I've had no luck. I have found several in running condition but that would defeat the purpose. I would appreciate any help and comments from anyone who can help. Thanks!! Gary
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14400 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 6/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Revell SW7 Diesel
              Last week, I saw one of those in a store in Colorado for 8 bucks.  It was the purple ACL scheme.  For 8 bucks you could have all the spare parts you want.  It was not one with the clutch drive.
               
              Brad
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14401 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 6/25/2010
              Subject: Model Retailer News
              I knew about Kader/Sanda Kan cutting some companies, but Bowser?

              "Chinese contract manufacturer Sanda Kan has sent letters to a number of its customers worldwide, telling them it will no longer be able to make products for them.

              According to industry sources, among the model railroad customers receiving letters from Sanda Kan are Weaver, S Helper Service, American Models, Bowser, Micro-Trains and Märklin/Trix.

              Kader Holdings, which purchased Sanda Kan in 2008, is also the parent company for Bachmann, Lilliput and Graham Farish."
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14402 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 6/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Model Retailer News
              Sanda Kan's termination letter was sent to all of their smaller customers including many they were not currently doing business with. For example, it is my understanding that Bowser got a letter even though they had switched some time ago to Affa Technology as their China connection. 
               
              Richard Bale
               
              In a message dated 6/25/2010 8:41:49 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, idioticyahoo@... writes:
               

              I knew about Kader/Sanda Kan cutting some companies, but Bowser?

              "Chinese contract manufacturer Sanda Kan has sent letters to a number of its customers worldwide, telling them it will no longer be able to make products for them.

              According to industry sources, among the model railroad customers receiving letters from Sanda Kan are Weaver, S Helper Service, American Models, Bowser, Micro-Trains and Märklin/Trix.

              Kader Holdings, which purchased Sanda Kan in 2008, is also the parent company for Bachmann, Lilliput and Graham Farish."

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14403 From: Matthew Date: 6/25/2010
              Subject: Lindberg SW1/SW600 was: Re: wanted
              Jim,

              Thanks! I have been to that to that site several times but never noticed the IC paint scheme.

              I too remember reading in one of the Lindberg Ads that the Pennsy paint was to be one of the logos offered but never have seen one.

              Mine doesn't run well but to repower it would be something of a crime since it is perfect in every other way.

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Matt,
              >
              > If you go to Tony Cook's site at www.ho-scaletrains.net and click on the Lindberg list he has a Lindberg Illinois Central with o/b shown.
              >
              > I must admit that I never knew there was one. The only road names for this SW-1 I knew for sure were B&O, Santa Fe and C&NW ( all of which I have and are shown with the rest of my entire collection in the Gallery section of www.hoseeker.net ). I had heard that the was a Pennsylvania one and even seem to remember seeing ads way back for it but have never found one.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14404 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 6/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Revell SW7 Diesel
              I could be wrong about this... but I think that Con Cor sold a version of this switcher that was a Revell shell on an Athearn frame. With that information in mind, I would think that you could repower the Revell with an Athearn Frame yourself, or find a junk Con Cor one... or you could maybe find a Hobbytown Switcher Chassis kit.



              -----Original Message-----
              From: garyp552002 <garyp552002@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 7:49 pm
              Subject: [vintageHO] Revell SW7 Diesel

              Hey Guys,
              I have an old circa 1959 Revell SW7 diesel that needs a motor. Anyone have any 
              ideas as to what to use to repower it and how? I would like to find a junker to 
              get a motor but I've had no luck. I have found several in running condition but 
              that would defeat the purpose. I would appreciate any help and comments from 
              anyone who can help. Thanks!! Gary
              
              
              
              ------------------------------------
              
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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14405 From: the_plainsman Date: 6/26/2010
              Subject: Original Mantua Parts Available @ Bowser
              Hi All,

              While checking out the current Bowser web pages yesterday, I noticed that Bowser is liquidating a signifigant number of new old stock Mantual parts for models from the late 1950's through the later, pre-Model Power buyout days. This may be a good opportunity for some of you to find some needed new parts unavailable elsewhere including diecast metal boilers, valve gear, etc. Bowser also has reproduced a large number of Mantua parts diagrams and instructions covering the same period, some of which may not be available on the web elsewhere via Dan Bush and HOSeeker, so worth a look.

              W Jay W.

              www.bowser-trains.com/misc/Misc%Parts/Mantua?Mantua%20Main%20page.htm

              If the link does not work for some reason, go to Bowser's page at www.bowser-trains.com and scroll down the page below the new model photos and click on "Mantua Parts Sale."
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14406 From: jim heckard Date: 6/26/2010
              Subject: Additional Updated Varney Tender Information
               
               
                      I want to share some updated Varney information. It concerns a previously unknown Varney tender. According to Dave Spanagel ( author of the Greenberg Varney Guide to Varney Trains ) it is not listed in any catalog. It also was not part of his Varney Guide  since it was unknown at that time. I thought that I would share this information with all especially Varney collectors.
               
                    The first picture is the only known paperwork I know of about the tender and it was sent to me by Dave Spanagel. The rest of the pictures are of the tender in my collection.
               
                     The paper Dave sent me is of the embossed Aluminum pieces for the tender and is not the best ( or darkest ) and hard to photograph. It shows the two sides, top, the 2 hatch covers and the front piece. The writing on it is by Dave Spanagel. The two circles at the top has    Varney pre war $25    in one circle and     Not in Varney book   in the other.  It is called a square back long distance tender. Again this is pre war and made from wood, cardboard and embossed aluminum. It has been designated as 764A by Dave Spanagel ( not to be confused with the 764 brass long haul tender in his book ).  It is a scale 42' 6" ( unlike the two 763 A&B square back all purpose types listed in his book that are a scale 34" ).
               
                  The rest of the pictures are the actual tender from all different views. As you can see it uses trucks with three axles but I can't guarantee if they are Varney or even whose they are. They were on it when I bought it.
               
                  I'm sharing the information that I know from having the tender and Dave Spanagel's correspondence with me about it. If you have other information, even contrary, to this please let me know. Also don't shoot the messenger as the main facts I'm reporting came from Dave Spanagel.
               
                                                                      Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14407 From: Chris B Date: 6/26/2010
              Subject: vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster
              Attachments :
              Hello group, I'm just back from the big train show in Timonium, where I acquired not one but two of the rare Hallmark models of the Whitcomb center cab 65 ton swittchers. 

              After 3  years of looking and bidding, it's very nice to finally have them, I've only seen 4 offered on ebay in all that time, and those auctions went out of my league.  I found them at the first booth five minutes after I arrived, and left them with the seller to have them stripped and finished in clear brass.

              This last acquisition pretty much means I have all the models available commercially for the WWII era roster; I still have to modify several of them slightly or severely to convert them into accurate models of the W&OD units, and I will have to scratch build the PRR Budd cars, but at least I can stop looking and start building.  

              Last week I found two brass wood express reefer shells that look like the perfect starting points for good models of #25 and #26, and I recently got Mantua vintage brass duckbilll coaches and baggage cars that will be cannabalized into decent stand-ins for the GF&OD coach and the former RF&P milk car that sat trackside at Bluemont Jct.

              I recently corrected all the year dates on my motive power chart, and just now by way of celebration I have added the modeling notes for each unit that identifies the appropriate commercial model or source of a model suitable for conversion, and attached a low res copy for any interested member.

              Chris B.




                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14408 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/26/2010
              Subject: Re: vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster [1 Attachment]
              Great find Chris!  Timmonium is about a 3-1/2, 4 hour ride one way, so only get there once every few years.  A local road I model, the Lehigh & New England, operated one of those Whitcombs for a few years and I remember being badly outbid on eBay once, too.  Great to hear you got both that you wanted - it is good when each of us can find those long sought after models. Like your illustrated chart - I just use boring spreadsheets! 
              W Jay W.


              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, June 26, 2010 2:41:27 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster [1 Attachment]

               

              Hello group, I'm just back from the big train show in Timonium, where I acquired not one but two of the rare Hallmark models of the Whitcomb center cab 65 ton swittchers. 

              After 3  years of looking and bidding, it's very nice to finally have them, I've only seen 4 offered on ebay in all that time, and those auctions went out of my league.  I found them at the first booth five minutes after I arrived, and left them with the seller to have them stripped and finished in clear brass.

              This last acquisition pretty much means I have all the models available commercially for the WWII era roster; I still have to modify several of them slightly or severely to convert them into accurate models of the W&OD units, and I will have to scratch build the PRR Budd cars, but at least I can stop looking and start building.  

              Last week I found two brass wood express reefer shells that look like the perfect starting points for good models of #25 and #26, and I recently got Mantua vintage brass duckbilll coaches and baggage cars that will be cannabalized into decent stand-ins for the GF&OD coach and the former RF&P milk car that sat trackside at Bluemont Jct.

              I recently corrected all the year dates on my motive power chart, and just now by way of celebration I have added the modeling notes for each unit that identifies the appropriate commercial model or source of a model suitable for conversion, and attached a low res copy for any interested member.

              Chris B.





              Group: vintageHO Message: 14409 From: Chris B Date: 6/26/2010
              Subject: Re: vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster
              Thanks! I'm sure you'll find one too eventually, when you least expect it! I actually went there with 20 copies of a 1 pg want list with nothing on it but this one model, with a photo and my contact info. I handed out similar sheets to brass dealers the last two times I went. This time, I paid, walked in, stopped at the very first booth, had a copy in my hand and was handing it to the dealer when I spotted the model on his display! Wow! When I said sold, sight unseen, I was thanking him, saying I really need 2, and he said Sure! He had another one from the same estate sale, that he had planned to put on ebay tonite!
              Heeewack!! And so he sold me the other one!
              So keep at it, you just never know when your "fill the holes in your vintage HO collection" genie will make it so!

              Chris B.
              From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
              Sender: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 12:01:38 -0700 (PDT)
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster

               

              Great find Chris!  Timmonium is about a 3-1/2, 4 hour ride one way, so only get there once every few years.  A local road I model, the Lehigh & New England, operated one of those Whitcombs for a few years and I remember being badly outbid on eBay once, too.  Great to hear you got both that you wanted - it is good when each of us can find those long sought after models. Like your illustrated chart - I just use boring spreadsheets! 
              W Jay W.


              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sat, June 26, 2010 2:41:27 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster [1 Attachment]

               

              Hello group, I'm just back from the big train show in Timonium, where I acquired not one but two of the rare Hallmark models of the Whitcomb center cab 65 ton swittchers. 

              After 3  years of looking and bidding, it's very nice to finally have them, I've only seen 4 offered on ebay in all that time, and those auctions went out of my league.  I found them at the first booth five minutes after I arrived, and left them with the seller to have them stripped and finished in clear brass.

              This last acquisition pretty much means I have all the models available commercially for the WWII era roster; I still have to modify several of them slightly or severely to convert them into accurate models of the W&OD units, and I will have to scratch build the PRR Budd cars, but at least I can stop looking and start building.  

              Last week I found two brass wood express reefer shells that look like the perfect starting points for good models of #25 and #26, and I recently got Mantua vintage brass duckbilll coaches and baggage cars that will be cannabalized into decent stand-ins for the GF&OD coach and the former RF&P milk car that sat trackside at Bluemont Jct.

              I recently corrected all the year dates on my motive power chart, and just now by way of celebration I have added the modeling notes for each unit that identifies the appropriate commercial model or source of a model suitable for conversion, and attached a low res copy for any interested member.

              Chris B.





              Group: vintageHO Message: 14410 From: jim heckard Date: 6/26/2010
              Subject: Re: vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster [1 Attachment]
               Chris B   
               
               Congratulations on your finds. As the saying goes right place , right time. Add on right price. Nice chart.
               
                                                               Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 2:41 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] vintage HO brass models of W&OD WWII era roster [1 Attachment]

               

              Hello group, I'm just back from the big train show in Timonium, where I acquired not one but two of the rare Hallmark models of the Whitcomb center cab 65 ton swittchers. 

              After 3  years of looking and bidding, it's very nice to finally have them, I've only seen 4 offered on ebay in all that time, and those auctions went out of my league.  I found them at the first booth five minutes after I arrived, and left them with the seller to have them stripped and finished in clear brass.

              This last acquisition pretty much means I have all the models available commercially for the WWII era roster; I still have to modify several of them slightly or severely to convert them into accurate models of the W&OD units, and I will have to scratch build the PRR Budd cars, but at least I can stop looking and start building.  

              Last week I found two brass wood express reefer shells that look like the perfect starting points for good models of #25 and #26, and I recently got Mantua vintage brass duckbilll coaches and baggage cars that will be cannabalized into decent stand-ins for the GF&OD coach and the former RF&P milk car that sat trackside at Bluemont Jct.

              I recently corrected all the year dates on my motive power chart, and just now by way of celebration I have added the modeling notes for each unit that identifies the appropriate commercial model or source of a model suitable for conversion, and attached a low res copy for any interested member.

              Chris B.




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14411 From: Matthew Date: 6/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Revell SW7 Diesel
              Thanks for posting that tidbit of info. I bought what I thought was a Revell SW at a swap meet 10 years ago and was disappointed to find an Athearn chassis under it. But it ran well and I couldn't fuss. Now I realize I probably had one of the somewhat rare ConCor versions. I don't recall seeing an ad for one, but they were in one of their brochures as I recall.

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, MRLENGAL2U@... wrote:
              >
              > I could be wrong about this... but I think that Con Cor sold a version of this switcher that was a Revell shell on an Athearn frame. With that information in mind, I would think that you could repower the Revell with an Athearn Frame yourself, or find a junk Con Cor one... or you could maybe find a Hobbytown Switcher Chassis kit.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: garyp552002 <garyp552002@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 7:49 pm
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Revell SW7 Diesel
              >
              >
              > Hey Guys,
              > have an old circa 1959 Revell SW7 diesel that needs a motor. Anyone have any
              > deas as to what to use to repower it and how? I would like to find a junker to
              > et a motor but I've had no luck. I have found several in running condition but
              > hat would defeat the purpose. I would appreciate any help and comments from
              > nyone who can help. Thanks!! Gary
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > Individual Email | Traditional
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14412 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 6/27/2010
              Subject: Free Mantua & Varney loop couplers
              Hey guys, Got some loop couplers I do not want. Not many... 5 to 7
              couplers

              Free to anyone who wants them. It will cost me $1.50 to mail, so just
              pay for the postage and they are yours. Heck, i might split the postage
              with you just to get rid of them.

              I will post a pic of them with a reply to this post...

              Sean
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14413 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Free Mantua & Varney loop couplers
              Attachments :
              Image attached!
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 4:39:54 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Free Mantua & Varney loop couplers

               


              Hey guys, Got some loop couplers I do not want. Not many... 5 to 7
              couplers

              Free to anyone who wants them. It will cost me $1.50 to mail, so just
              pay for the postage and they are yours. Heck, i might split the postage
              with you just to get rid of them.

              I will post a pic of them with a reply to this post...

              Sean


                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14414 From: Chris B Date: 6/28/2010
              Subject: Fw: [brasscollectors] Re: another what is it
              Jim, does this sound familiar? Chris B.
              From: "emmettdene" <emmettdene@...>
              Sender: brasscollectors@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:50:06 -0000
              To: <brasscollectors@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: brasscollectors@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [brasscollectors] Re: another what is it

               

              oops sorry i put pics in photo section under what is it.

              --- In brasscollectors@yahoogroups.com, "dinwitty" <dinwitty@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In brasscollectors@yahoogroups.com, "emmettdene" <emmettdene@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > i have another train show whatsit. e/3/4/6 has stamped brass body
              > > soldered to a nose made of 3 stamped pieces soldered together.
              > > b unit similar construction. has a folded under lip to fasten mechanism to. mfgr? year? thanks
              > > emmet d
              > >
              >
              >
              > pics would help, but reminds me of a brass electric engine I once owned, huge wheels, and one axle powered with a vertical motor direct powered, too speedy and no power, for a brass engine. It was much like a stamped side brass anyways, a cheapo style of a brass engine. From Japan.
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14415 From: jim heckard Date: 6/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Fw: [brasscollectors] Re: another what is it
              Chris B,
               
                  Must have brain fog this morning as I am not quite sure what your are asking about " does it sound familiar"  Yesterday when emmet d also ask on another site about engines he got and didn't know what it is I responded to him on that site. The engine pictured, at least the body ( don't know about the drive as no picture ) is Crescent. I am 99.99% sure. More pictures would help.
               
                 The reason I am sure about the A unit is his description of how the cab is pieces and soldered together and then to the body. The end piece that I can see is Crescent as is the multiple little stack pieces soldered on the top. I offered him information to check against paperwork and a picture of an A unit on hoseeker.net.
               
                 The real problem here is he has a B unit too. My motto is never say never . I know nothing about Crescent producing a B unit and is why I would like to see more pics especially length wise showing the A aside the B. Has the B unit been created from a A unit where it just had two ends attached inside of a cab ? Are they the same length or is the B shorter then the A ?
               
                  The A unit came in multiple boxes much like some of the Varney engines. All parts and boxes I have come upon along with engines have been specifically made to create A units.
               
                If there is an original B unit and one not made or modified I would like to know. As for the answer from the brass collectors he describes a IMP/ International drive.  As that person states more pictures would surely help.
               
               I still believe the A body is Crescent but would like to see more. Does this help answer anything for you. I can provide other pictures and assembly sheet if it would help.
               
                                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              To: Vint Ho
              Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 11:02 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Fw: [brasscollectors] Re: another what is it

               

              Jim, does this sound familiar? Chris B.


              From: "emmettdene" <emmettdene@yahoo. com>
              Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:50:06 -0000
              Subject: [brasscollectors] Re: another what is it

               

              oops sorry i put pics in photo section under what is it.

              --- In brasscollectors@ yahoogroups. com, "dinwitty" <dinwitty@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In brasscollectors@ yahoogroups. com, "emmettdene" <emmettdene@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > i have another train show whatsit. e/3/4/6 has stamped brass body
              > > soldered to a nose made of 3 stamped pieces soldered together.
              > > b unit similar construction. has a folded under lip to fasten mechanism to. mfgr? year? thanks
              > > emmet d
              > >
              >
              >
              > pics would help, but reminds me of a brass electric engine I once owned, huge wheels, and one axle powered with a vertical motor direct powered, too speedy and no power, for a brass engine. It was much like a stamped side brass anyways, a cheapo style of a brass engine. From Japan.
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14416 From: rcjge Date: 6/28/2010
              Subject: Athearn Metal Freight car kits
              hey Gents:

              Just recently I've watched Athearn metal car kits in plastic bags with cardboard top closers selling on ebay.

              They appear to be the same as the old Red/White early 50's kits with separate details like ladders etc. This is a link to one of these:

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160449752501&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

              Can someone clarrify for me why these aren't in red/white boxes? Are they early "Blue Box" kits?

              Thanks for any help,

              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14417 From: Wobbly913 Date: 6/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Freight car kits
              As I understand it Athearn sold the rights to the metal line to Menzies which continued to produce the kits for some time. The kits by Menzies did not include trucks, and came in the bags instead of the boxes Athearn put them in. I believe there was at least one other manufacturer that also sold Athearn metal kits in bags as well.
              Wobbly913

              --- On Mon, 6/28/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

              From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Metal Freight car kits
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 2:45 PM

              hey Gents:

              Just recently I've watched Athearn metal car kits in plastic bags with cardboard top closers selling on ebay.

              They appear to be the same as the old Red/White early 50's kits with separate details like ladders etc. This is a link to one of these:

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160449752501&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

              Can someone clarrify for me why these aren't in red/white boxes? Are they early "Blue Box" kits?

              Thanks for any help,

              Gareth





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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14418 From: Rick Jones Date: 6/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Freight car kits
              On 6/28/2010 4:45 PM, rcjge wrote:
              > hey Gents:
              >
              > Just recently I've watched Athearn metal car kits in plastic bags with cardboard top closers selling on ebay.
              >
              > They appear to be the same as the old Red/White early 50's kits with separate details like ladders etc. This is a link to one of these:
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160449752501&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
              >
              > Can someone clarrify for me why these aren't in red/white boxes? Are they early "Blue Box" kits?

              Those are Menzies version of the old Athearn metal line kits.
              Athearn sold the metal kits to Menzies when they went to all plastic
              kits. Menzies sold these for a while, then Bowser acquired them. I know
              that Bowser had them available into the '90s, under the English's brand,
              but they have dropped the line at some point. Perhaps someone else has
              more detailed timeline info?

              --

              Rick Jones

              Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14419 From: Donald Dellmann Date: 6/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Revell SW7 Diesel
              The Athearn Chassis fits the Revell shell like it was made for it.  The only thing you have to do is glue the fuel tanks to the frame since on the Revell they were separate from the body.
              '
              FWIW, the Revell model was actually an NW-2.  You can take the cab off one Revell, add the short hood piece from an Athearn SW-7 "B" (again it fits like it was made for it), and coupled with a "stock" unit have a very creditable TR-2,
               
              Don
               
              P.S., note to everyone, I'm kind of offline for a bit, having computer troubles, so if you sent me a message, don't panic.

              --- On Sun, 6/27/10, Matthew <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:

              From: Matthew <mattjcoleman@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Revell SW7 Diesel
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, June 27, 2010, 3:11 AM

              Thanks for posting that tidbit of info. I bought what I thought was a Revell SW at a swap meet 10 years ago and was disappointed to find an Athearn chassis under it. But it ran well and I couldn't fuss. Now I realize I probably had one of the somewhat rare ConCor versions. I don't recall seeing an ad for one, but they were in one of their brochures as I recall.

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, MRLENGAL2U@... wrote:
              >
              > I could be wrong about this... but I think that Con Cor sold a version of this switcher that was a Revell shell on an Athearn frame. With that information in mind, I would think that you could repower the Revell with an Athearn Frame yourself, or find a junk Con Cor one... or you could maybe find a Hobbytown Switcher Chassis kit.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: garyp552002 <garyp552002@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, Jun 24, 2010 7:49 pm
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Revell SW7 Diesel
              >
              >
              > Hey Guys,
              >  have an old circa 1959 Revell SW7 diesel that needs a motor. Anyone have any
              > deas as to what to use to repower it and how? I would like to find a junker to
              > et a motor but I've had no luck. I have found several in running condition but
              > hat would defeat the purpose. I would appreciate any help and comments from
              > nyone who can help. Thanks!! Gary
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >    Individual Email | Traditional
              >    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >




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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14420 From: Gary Woodard Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Amazing Technology
              Hi Guys and Girls,
               
              I'm sending this link to a video of Jay Leno's Garage, the technology used here can be very useful, not only for the purposes of replicating our model trains, but just about anything else you need replicated, this is some really cool stuff, what a way to make a 3D model of something, imagine if you will, many of the parts needed for restorations of some of our vitage trains, this is a much easier and more cost effective way of doing just that, you will see what I'm talking about in the video.
               
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14421 From: jim heckard Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Red Ball SW-1
               
               
                  I am looking for some information concerning the Red Ball SW-1. I was able to obtain one for my collection from member Sean N but have not been able to dig up much info about it. I have found a picture inside a Red Ball catalog #4 on HOseeker. Also I'm told there is something in a 1947 Red Ball newsletter. Thanks to W Jay W who supplied me with the above info and how this engine came without power and a Lindsay drive was used I can now have a vintage piece restored.
               
                 Specifically I am looking for some paperwork / drawing that shows just how the Lindsay motor was mounted in the Red Ball engine. While I am sure I can find a way to do it I like things as original as possible.
               
                Any help appreciated.
               
                                                                                        Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14422 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Metal Freight car kits
              Gareth, As has already been stated, Athearn's line of metal freight cars
              were sold to G.F. Menzies, who packaged them in plastic bags. This line was
              then sold to D.J. Baker and Park Varieties (Frank Brua) both of which
              continued some of Athearn's production as well as other roadnames -- also packed in
              plastic bags -- before being sold to Bowser. Ray</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14423 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Re: "Athearn" (Kar Line) Plastic Freight cars, was: Athearn Metal
              Along these same lines, but changing to Athearn plastic, were cars produced
              by other manufacturers (refinishers) using Athearn plastic kits. Bev Bel
              is one such well known manufacturer which re-finished Athearn freight cars in
              a great number of more obscure roads, but my favorite by far of such
              refinishers was Kar Line which produced nothing short of supurb representations in
              miniature of what these cars appeared as in the prototype. The finish that
              Kar Line applied to Athearn cars resembled closely, the actual steel sides
              of the prototype cars -- they no longer looked plastic.

              I'm almost beginning to think that we should all dump our metal cars (<g>)
              in favor of Kar Line, when I see such bids for them as I'm now seeing for
              them on eBay now. Up on eBay now (ending in about 4 hours) are a number of
              Kar Line box cars -- a C&IM so far going for $82, a NP Express Box car at $76,
              an NKP silver box car at $48 and another C&IM box car at $52. Could this
              be the start of something BIG ? I have a few dozen of these cars, only as
              they're well done (nicely factory painted & lettered), and they're in my
              favorite roadnames, but I never though they'd command such high prices. Ray F.W.
              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14424 From: Wobbly913 Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Amazing Technology
              Definitely a neat toy to have, we should each buy one. And the Next Engine scanner itself  only costs $2995.00 each. I have no idea what the other device costs, but the whole thing would be a real boon to duplicating parts for our hobby.

              --- On Tue, 6/29/10, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:

              From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Amazing Technology
              To: all-railroads@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Engelking - SHERIFFX" <T_Engelking@...>, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 3:30 AM



              Hi Guys and Girls,
               
              I'm sending this link to a video of Jay Leno's Garage, the technology used here can be very useful, not only for the purposes of replicating our model trains, but just about anything else you need replicated, this is some really cool stuff, what a way to make a 3D model of something, imagine if you will, many of the parts needed for restorations of some of our vitage trains, this is a much easier and more cost effective way of doing just that, you will see what I'm talking about in the video.
               
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14425 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
              Jim,
              I have been having a difficult time finding info on another Red Ball loco. There must not of been to much info distributed about them.
               Maybe looking at how the Lindsay power truck was mounted in other locos may be the best way to determan it's instalation into the SW-1
               

              http://www.hoseeker.net/lindsay/lindsayathearndiagrampg2.jpg--- On Tue, 6/29/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 5:17 AM



               
               
                  I am looking for some information concerning the Red Ball SW-1. I was able to obtain one for my collection from member Sean N but have not been able to dig up much info about it. I have found a picture inside a Red Ball catalog #4 on HOseeker. Also I'm told there is something in a 1947 Red Ball newsletter. Thanks to W Jay W who supplied me with the above info and how this engine came without power and a Lindsay drive was used I can now have a vintage piece restored.
               
                 Specifically I am looking for some paperwork / drawing that shows just how the Lindsay motor was mounted in the Red Ball engine. While I am sure I can find a way to do it I like things as original as possible.
               
                Any help appreciated.
               
                                                                                        Jim H



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14426 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
              Jim, Ray,
              I can say, the chassis frame is a solid brass plate with no holes. In order to mount a motor, a hole large enough to fit the motor through will have to be worked into the plate.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 12:02:52 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1

               

              Jim,
              I have been having a difficult time finding info on another Red Ball loco. There must not of been to much info distributed about them.
               Maybe looking at how the Lindsay power truck was mounted in other locos may be the best way to determan it's instalation into the SW-1
               

              http://www.hoseeker .net/lindsay/ lindsayathearndi agrampg2. jpg--- On Tue, 6/29/10, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 5:17 AM



               
               
                  I am looking for some information concerning the Red Ball SW-1. I was able to obtain one for my collection from member Sean N but have not been able to dig up much info about it. I have found a picture inside a Red Ball catalog #4 on HOseeker. Also I'm told there is something in a 1947 Red Ball newsletter. Thanks to W Jay W who supplied me with the above info and how this engine came without power and a Lindsay drive was used I can now have a vintage piece restored.
               
                 Specifically I am looking for some paperwork / drawing that shows just how the Lindsay motor was mounted in the Red Ball engine. While I am sure I can find a way to do it I like things as original as possible.
               
                Any help appreciated.
               
                                                                                        Jim H




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14427 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1

              Here is a photo of a motor mount from the same era.

              --- On Tue, 6/29/10, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 9:06 AM



              Jim, Ray,
              I can say, the chassis frame is a solid brass plate with no holes. In order to mount a motor, a hole large enough to fit the motor through will have to be worked into the plate.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 12:02:52 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1

               
              Jim,
              I have been having a difficult time finding info on another Red Ball loco. There must not of been to much info distributed about them.
               Maybe looking at how the Lindsay power truck was mounted in other locos may be the best way to determan it's instalation into the SW-1
               

              http://www.hoseeker .net/lindsay/ lindsayathearndi agrampg2. jpg--- On Tue, 6/29/10, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 5:17 AM



               
               
                  I am looking for some information concerning the Red Ball SW-1. I was able to obtain one for my collection from member Sean N but have not been able to dig up much info about it. I have found a picture inside a Red Ball catalog #4 on HOseeker. Also I'm told there is something in a 1947 Red Ball newsletter. Thanks to W Jay W who supplied me with the above info and how this engine came without power and a Lindsay drive was used I can now have a vintage piece restored.
               
                 Specifically I am looking for some paperwork / drawing that shows just how the Lindsay motor was mounted in the Red Ball engine. While I am sure I can find a way to do it I like things as original as possible.
               
                Any help appreciated.
               
                                                                                        Jim H







                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14428 From: RalphB Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Re: "Athearn" (Kar Line) Plastic Freight cars, was: Athearn Metal
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray F.W. wrote:
              >
              > Along these same lines, but changing to Athearn plastic, were cars produced
              > by other manufacturers (refinishers) using Athearn plastic kits. Bev Bel
              > is one such well known manufacturer which re-finished Athearn freight cars in
              > a great number of more obscure roads, but my favorite by far of such
              > refinishers was Kar Line
              -------------------
              A friend of mine must've bought just about one of everything that Kar Line produced. Besides the excellent paint and graphics, the cars came with Kadee couplers and metal wheels, IIRC. Fact is, they looked almost TOO good. Most of the cars were 40-footers, which is one reason I didn't buy any, that and the fact that they weren't inexpensive. He tries to sell me some every time I visit him, so far without success.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14429 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
              Jim H.,
               
              Here's where not having a digital camera is a handicap so I could show how the Lindsay power truck is mounted in my Red Ball SW-1.  Anyway, as Sean thought was done, the builder of my unit neatly cut the opening into the frame's sheet brass floor to provide clearance.  I will take a look when I am home tonight and let you know what type of bracket was used.  If you would like, I could also trace the exact opening for you as well.
               
              It certainly seems that the Lindsay power truck was the "standard" of those times for powering diesel switchers and road switchers, as besides Lindsay's own investment cast brass NW-2, the following others in my collection have the Lindsay power truck: Kemtron diecast zamac Baldwin switcher,  Red Ball sheet brass Alco RS-2, Lawrence cast brass GP-7 and I have a one page illustrated Arden instruction sheet (but not the model) that specifically mentions that their Alco road switcher (perhaps a later version?) was set up to provide for mount the Lindsay truck.
               
              W. Jay W.
               
               
               

               


              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 12:06:38 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1

               

              Jim, Ray,
              I can say, the chassis frame is a solid brass plate with no holes. In order to mount a motor, a hole large enough to fit the motor through will have to be worked into the plate.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 12:02:52 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1

               

              Jim,
              I have been having a difficult time finding info on another Red Ball loco. There must not of been to much info distributed about them.
               Maybe looking at how the Lindsay power truck was mounted in other locos may be the best way to determan it's instalation into the SW-1

              http://www.hoseeker.net/lindsay/lindsaypowerunit.jpg
               

              http://www.hoseeker .net/lindsay/ lindsayathearndi agrampg2. jpg--- On Tue, 6/29/10, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 5:17 AM



               
               
                  I am looking for some information concerning the Red Ball SW-1. I was able to obtain one for my collection from member Sean N but have not been able to dig up much info about it. I have found a picture inside a Red Ball catalog #4 on HOseeker. Also I'm told there is something in a 1947 Red Ball newsletter. Thanks to W Jay W who supplied me with the above info and how this engine came without power and a Lindsay drive was used I can now have a vintage piece restored.
               
                 Specifically I am looking for some paperwork / drawing that shows just how the Lindsay motor was mounted in the Red Ball engine. While I am sure I can find a way to do it I like things as original as possible.
               
                Any help appreciated.
               
                                                                                        Jim H





              Group: vintageHO Message: 14430 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: 1938-40 Walthers Cast Bronze Alco High Hood Switcher
              Hi All,
               
              Another find! -  It seems that with the more information and knowledge we are sharing, more good finds are being made.  A couple of weeks ago, while scrolling though a seller's eBay listings, I spotted what at first looked like another diecast lead 1940's Walthers Alco High Hood switcher, but on second glance noticed the cast inside hood tabs that are only present in the earlier, sand-cast bronze model. (Walthers identifies the material as being cast bronze in their early catalogs.)
               
              Some who may have known that Walthers originally sold the chunky little diesel cast in bronze, may have assumed that the original sand bronze model was identical to the more familiar later cast lead "brick" which was sold in partially assembled and assembled versions throughout the 1940's (and later re-introduced and available as a castings only kit in the 1980's).  To confuse things a bit, Walther never changed the catalog numbers circa 1940-1941 when they changed the model from sand cast bronze to die cast lead.
               
              However, save for the basic power truck mechanism which was shared by Walthers gas electric, MU cars and Interurbans, the original sand cast bronze and later diecast lead models are complete different.  An added plus is that the earlier cast bronze model is slightly smaller and appears more to scale than its later lead replacement!
               
               
              The sand-cast bronze model measures 5-3/16" in overall length over end beams vs. the later die cast lead alloy version's 5-3/4"  Overall width of the sand cast bronze unit measured at the cab is 1-1/4" and 1-7/16" for the lead "brick."  The bronze hood width is 15/16" and the lead version measures 1/8" wider.  The bronze model has 6 hood doors cast in each side, and the cab roof overhangs the front of the cab about 1/4" as did later prototypes.  The lead version has 7 hood doors and there is no cab roof overhang.  Inside the cast bronze model are several integrally cast tabs used to mount the trucks, while the early lead models used separate cast lead brackets soldered between the sides. 
               
              The bronze model has sand cast white metal side frames with round simulated roller bearing journals (shown in the photo below), while later bronze bodied and lead switcher versions have the familiar die-cast white metal simulated friction bearing axle journals. 
               
              The prewar power trucks went though several evolutionary changes as well, from thin wall sheet brass construction to later 1/16" wall sheet brass construction in the early 1940's and later appear in several die cast metal versions in the post WW-2 period.
               
               
              The earliest motors, are identified in the catalog as 6-8 volt by Pittman and also exhibit evolutionary changes during the 6-8 volt period of manufacture.  Unfortunately, the very early motor in my new find is missing many critical parts!
               
              I am lucky enough to have a second cast bronze model as well, purchased over 15 years ago at a local train show.  It was the first vintage locomotive I ever purchased, having no knowledge that it was an early Walthers model, but liked it immediately having seen the Erie High Hood Alcos shuttling back and forth on the Erie's Jersey City Terminal lead tracks as a kid looking out of the family car's back seat whenever we drove into the Holland Tunnel.
               
              Unfortunately, a prior owner of that first purchased version bent the entire cast bronze body top upward about 1/4" in an effort to pry it off, and I have been reluctant to bend it back or trust it to a bronze art restoration shop until I found another.  That first model I purchase years ago seems to be slightly newer, being from 1939 or 1940, as while it has the thin wall power truck, it has the later die cast white metal side frames and a slightly newer Pittman 6-8 volt motor. 
               
              Last summer I purchased a new old stock boxed Walthers power truck U239 or U240(?) dating from about 1940-1941 and plan to use that to restore one of mine.  The other will likely get a vintage 12 volt Pittman  
               
              A few nights ago, I began stripping off the layers of paint and seeing the gleaming brass beneath was quite a thrill!  Eventually, one of my bronze versions will probably be painted in DL&W prototype colors.
               
              I also have two late 1940's factory assembled new old stock cast lead versions, one of which will be left factory fresh and the other painted as well.
               
              Anyone else have one of these sand cast bronze Walther's Alco High Hoods?  I'd be interested in hearing about the details as well and am looking for a copy of the pre-WW-2 instruction sheet as both HO Seeker and I only have the later plan sheet dated 1946.
               
              W. Jay W.
               
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14431 From: Sean Naylor Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Re: 1938-40 Walthers Cast Bronze Alco High Hood Switcher
              You know W.Jay..
               
              I was asleep at the wheel the other day. I meant to bid on that one..
               
              Glad, but not surprised you got it.. cheap too of I remember correctly...
               
              I had my sights set on some bigger & badder listings I guess..
               
              Sean
               

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 3:30:16 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] 1938-40 Walthers Cast Bronze Alco High Hood Switcher

               

              Hi All,
               
              Another find! -  It seems that with the more information and knowledge we are sharing, more good finds are being made.  A couple of weeks ago, while scrolling though a seller's eBay listings, I spotted what at first looked like another diecast lead 1940's Walthers Alco High Hood switcher, but on second glance noticed the cast inside hood tabs that are only present in the earlier, sand-cast bronze model. (Walthers identifies the material as being cast bronze in their early catalogs.)
               
              Some who may have known that Walthers originally sold the chunky little diesel cast in bronze, may have assumed that the original sand bronze model was identical to the more familiar later cast lead "brick" which was sold in partially assembled and assembled versions throughout the 1940's (and later re-introduced and available as a castings only kit in the 1980's).  To confuse things a bit, Walther never changed the catalog numbers circa 1940-1941 when they changed the model from sand cast bronze to die cast lead.
               
              However, save for the basic power truck mechanism which was shared by Walthers gas electric, MU cars and Interurbans, the original sand cast bronze and later diecast lead models are complete different.  An added plus is that the earlier cast bronze model is slightly smaller and appears more to scale than its later lead replacement!
               
               
              The sand-cast bronze model measures 5-3/16" in overall length over end beams vs. the later die cast lead alloy version's 5-3/4"  Overall width of the sand cast bronze unit measured at the cab is 1-1/4" and 1-7/16" for the lead "brick."  The bronze hood width is 15/16" and the lead version measures 1/8" wider.  The bronze model has 6 hood doors cast in each side, and the cab roof overhangs the front of the cab about 1/4" as did later prototypes.  The lead version has 7 hood doors and there is no cab roof overhang.  Inside the cast bronze model are several integrally cast tabs used to mount the trucks, while the early lead models used separate cast lead brackets soldered between the sides. 
               
              The bronze model has sand cast white metal side frames with round simulated roller bearing journals (shown in the photo below), while later bronze bodied and lead switcher versions have the familiar die-cast white metal simulated friction bearing axle journals. 
               
              The prewar power trucks went though several evolutionary changes as well, from thin wall sheet brass construction to later 1/16" wall sheet brass construction in the early 1940's and later appear in several die cast metal versions in the post WW-2 period.
               
               
              The earliest motors, are identified in the catalog as 6-8 volt by Pittman and also exhibit evolutionary changes during the 6-8 volt period of manufacture.  Unfortunately, the very early motor in my new find is missing many critical parts!
               
              I am lucky enough to have a second cast bronze model as well, purchased over 15 years ago at a local train show.  It was the first vintage locomotive I ever purchased, having no knowledge that it was an early Walthers model, but liked it immediately having seen the Erie High Hood Alcos shuttling back and forth on the Erie's Jersey City Terminal lead tracks as a kid looking out of the family car's back seat whenever we drove into the Holland Tunnel.
               
              Unfortunately, a prior owner of that first purchased version bent the entire cast bronze body top upward about 1/4" in an effort to pry it off, and I have been reluctant to bend it back or trust it to a bronze art restoration shop until I found another.  That first model I purchase years ago seems to be slightly newer, being from 1939 or 1940, as while it has the thin wall power truck, it has the later die cast white metal side frames and a slightly newer Pittman 6-8 volt motor. 
               
              Last summer I purchased a new old stock boxed Walthers power truck U239 or U240(?) dating from about 1940-1941 and plan to use that to restore one of mine.  The other will likely get a vintage 12 volt Pittman  
               
              A few nights ago, I began stripping off the layers of paint and seeing the gleaming brass beneath was quite a thrill!  Eventually, one of my bronze versions will probably be painted in DL&W prototype colors.
               
              I also have two late 1940's factory assembled new old stock cast lead versions, one of which will be left factory fresh and the other painted as well.
               
              Anyone else have one of these sand cast bronze Walther's Alco High Hoods?  I'd be interested in hearing about the details as well and am looking for a copy of the pre-WW-2 instruction sheet as both HO Seeker and I only have the later plan sheet dated 1946.
               
              W. Jay W.
               
               


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14432 From: garyp552002 Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Revell SW7
              Hey Guys,
              Does anyone have a spare motor for a 1957-58 Revell SW7? If so please contact me off page. Thanks!
              Gary
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14433 From: jim heckard Date: 6/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
              
              Ray M, W Jay W, Sean N,
               
                    Since there seems to be no specific paperwork and I know that Red Ball SW-1 used a Lindsay motor for drive I will just make up what looks best to get the height right, using some tricks like other engines using Lindsay, cut out frame to get it in . It probably was a do it yourself arrangement. The engine will be powered and if I turn it over who would know if it isn't exacty done according to any specs. It still will fit into my vintage collection.
               
                                                                     Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 2:27 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1

               

              Jim H.,
               
              Here's where not having a digital camera is a handicap so I could show how the Lindsay power truck is mounted in my Red Ball SW-1.  Anyway, as Sean thought was done, the builder of my unit neatly cut the opening into the frame's sheet brass floor to provide clearance.  I will take a look when I am home tonight and let you know what type of bracket was used.  If you would like, I could also trace the exact opening for you as well.
               
              It certainly seems that the Lindsay power truck was the "standard" of those times for powering diesel switchers and road switchers, as besides Lindsay's own investment cast brass NW-2, the following others in my collection have the Lindsay power truck: Kemtron diecast zamac Baldwin switcher,  Red Ball sheet brass Alco RS-2, Lawrence cast brass GP-7 and I have a one page illustrated Arden instruction sheet (but not the model) that specifically mentions that their Alco road switcher (perhaps a later version?) was set up to provide for mount the Lindsay truck.
               
              W. Jay W.
               
               
               

               


              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 12:06:38 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1

               

              Jim, Ray,
              I can say, the chassis frame is a solid brass plate with no holes. In order to mount a motor, a hole large enough to fit the motor through will have to be worked into the plate.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 12:02:52 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1

               

              Jim,
              I have been having a difficult time finding info on another Red Ball loco. There must not of been to much info distributed about them.
               Maybe looking at how the Lindsay power truck was mounted in other locos may be the best way to determan it's instalation into the SW-1

              http://www.hoseeker .net/lindsay/ lindsaypowerunit .jpg
               

              http://www.hoseeker .net/lindsay/ lindsayathearndi agrampg2. jpg--- On Tue, 6/29/10, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 5:17 AM



               
               
                  I am looking for some information concerning the Red Ball SW-1. I was able to obtain one for my collection from member Sean N but have not been able to dig up much info about it. I have found a picture inside a Red Ball catalog #4 on HOseeker. Also I'm told there is something in a 1947 Red Ball newsletter. Thanks to W Jay W who supplied me with the above info and how this engine came without power and a Lindsay drive was used I can now have a vintage piece restored.
               
                 Specifically I am looking for some paperwork / drawing that shows just how the Lindsay motor was mounted in the Red Ball engine. While I am sure I can find a way to do it I like things as original as possible.
               
                Any help appreciated.
               
                                                                                        Jim H





              Group: vintageHO Message: 14434 From: RalphB Date: 6/30/2010
              Subject: Re: "Athearn" (Kar Line) Plastic Freight cars, was: Athearn Metal
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray F.W. wrote:
              >
              > ...my favorite by far of such
              > refinishers was Kar Line which produced nothing short of supurb representations in
              > miniature of what these cars appeared as in the prototype.
              -----------------
              I responded that I had a friend who had purchased most of Kar Line's cars. I also sent him some of Ray's comments. His reply was, "kar line was a husband-wife partnership located in a home basement in east aurora new york - it was the couple's retirement project - he would paint in the morning while she decaled - in the afternoon they would reverse roles - when i visited their basement in 1974 or 1975 they had 129 different freight cars on their shelves-unless they were supplied with all around pictures a car would not be done, so everything they produced was legitimate."

              Would that all manufacturers were so driven.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14435 From: Richard Date: 7/1/2010
              Subject: Pilot for Old Athearn Pacific
              Gentlemen,
              I am in need of a complete pilot for the 1960's Athearn 4-6-2. If you have one you can part with please email me off list. Thank you.
              Richard in Vermont
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14436 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 7/2/2010
              Subject: Matching 410M Paints
              Hi,
              I am building a Binkley model kit and need to find paints to match the recommended 410M ones in  the instructions. My research says that Model Railroader has an article about that very subject in the September, 2006 issue on p. 38. Does anyone have that and could perhaps send me a copy of the article by email? I would appreciate it immensely!
               
              Art W
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14437 From: nvrr49 Date: 7/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Pilot for Old Athearn Pacific
              Me too, but I thought Scalecoat still made this product using a different number system?

              Kent in KC

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rh@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gentlemen,
              > I am in need of a complete pilot for the 1960's Athearn 4-6-2. If you have one you can part with please email me off list. Thank you.
              > Richard in Vermont
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14438 From: jim heckard Date: 7/3/2010
              Subject: DMC papersides for EB unit
              Attachments :
               
               
                         A little while back a few fellas from here got together and gave me a DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) EB unit that had paper sides to match my powered A unit. While I had repaired the B unit and have it on the shelf there were some problems with the paper sides. A lot of the lines were not complete and a few of the windows had chunks out . I sent the sides to a friend to try to restore. He was able to recreate the lines and fill in the chunks missing. If you look at the picture the original paper sides are in the middle. Look close and you might see the problem areas.
               
                 The outside pieces are the restored pieces. These are much better then what I sent. Remember these are 60 years old and the only HO engine I know of having papersides. I now have to finely sand the inside of the windows. Rough edges were left by original owner who cut them out. I then have to ad "screens" and draw the black line across the top of them.
               
                  While not perfect definitely better.
               
                                                                         Jim H
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14439 From: Matthew Date: 7/4/2010
              Subject: Re: DMC papersides for EB unit
              Jim,

              Your friend did some magnificent restoration work! I read about the paper sides in an old RMC (I think) many years ago but never have even seen a photo until now. Thanks for sharing.

              Matt Coleman

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > A little while back a few fellas from here got together and gave me a DMC ( Dallas Model Craft ) EB unit that had paper sides to match my powered A unit. While I had repaired the B unit and have it on the shelf there were some problems with the paper sides. A lot of the lines were not complete and a few of the windows had chunks out . I sent the sides to a friend to try to restore. He was able to recreate the lines and fill in the chunks missing. If you look at the picture the original paper sides are in the middle. Look close and you might see the problem areas.
              >
              > The outside pieces are the restored pieces. These are much better then what I sent. Remember these are 60 years old and the only HO engine I know of having papersides. I now have to finely sand the inside of the windows. Rough edges were left by original owner who cut them out. I then have to ad "screens" and draw the black line across the top of them.
              >
              > While not perfect definitely better.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14440 From: jim heckard Date: 7/4/2010
              Subject: mint DMC paper sides
              Attachments :
              Matt Coleman,
               
                  While my friend did a great job on the paper sides for the Dallas Model Craft B unit I wanted to show you what a set of mint paper sides for the A unit look like. You can see neither the windows or the screen areas have been cut out like the B. I will try to replace the missing areas for the B unit with some facsimile ( windows and screens ) before I mount it on the aluminum sides.
               
                                                                          Jim
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14441 From: Matthew Date: 7/5/2010
              Subject: Re: mint DMC paper sides
              Jim,

              Thanks! That gives a much better impression of how they looked when built. It is interesting to note how quickly the industry moved beyond printer paper sides and onto diecast or etched details.

              Impressive collection you have there! Thanks for sharing.

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Matt Coleman,
              >
              > While my friend did a great job on the paper sides for the Dallas Model Craft B unit I wanted to show you what a set of mint paper sides for the A unit look like. You can see neither the windows or the screen areas have been cut out like the B. I will try to replace the missing areas for the B unit with some facsimile ( windows and screens ) before I mount it on the aluminum sides.
              >
              > Jim
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14442 From: jim heckard Date: 7/5/2010
              Subject: Nice Varney Steam
               
               
               
               
                          Normally I wouldn't mention it but there are some really nice, good looking Varney steam engines on Ebay.
               
               
                 170509057529        Varney 2-8-2 post war Super model with V-2 motor and sprung and equalized drivers. Tender is the Varney non embossed Long Distance Brass tender.
               
                 170509055884      Varney 2-8-4 Berkshire later model with open frame motor and if my eyes see right Box Pok drivers. Probably the economy model with rigid frame. Has the non embossed Long Distance brass tender also.
               
               
                  Also I know some were interested in the Varney Brass streamlined body.   Go to    330448260201  and you will find what looks like a nearly complete kit. I say nearly because I do not see the 2 brass pieces for the skirting.
               
                  No I have nothing to do with them and I won't be bidding as I have already. Just thought they are nice Varney examples.
               
                                                                                    Jim H
               
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14443 From: Douglas Date: 7/5/2010
              Subject: Photos for interurban article
              I have written a survey article about modeling interurban railways, and am looking for photos to accompany it. I need pix of:
              * individual models: from kits, scratchbuilt, Suydam brass;
              * layouts: interurban alone, I/U and city trolleys, I/U and mainline rail interface, anything from small shelf to a large layout;
              * any other things of interest to potential I/U modelers;
              * HO, O or any other scale or gauge.

              Photos should be sharp, of print quality, unedited and unretouched by PhotoShop or other processes, JPEG, TIF or EPS files preferably formated for PC. They should be approximately 8 X 10 inches in size and 300 dpi. Film-based pix are also still acceptable.

              All photos used will be credited to the photographer and the builder/owner.

              This is a possible opportunity to showcase a branch of model traction that has been long overlooked by the mainstream model rail press. (Yeah, I know: they all have.)

              Thanks,
              Doug McKercher

              1819 Lorraine Avenue
              Ottawa, ON
              K1H 6Z7

              613.260.3256 tel
              613.276.0369 cell
              baddog@...
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14444 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 7/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Photos for interurban article
              Douglas wrote:
              >
              >
              > I have written a survey article about modeling interurban railways,
              > and am looking for photos to accompany it. I need pix of:
              > * individual models: from kits, scratchbuilt, Suydam brass;
              > * layouts: interurban alone, I/U and city trolleys, I/U and mainline
              > rail interface, anything from small shelf to a large layout;
              > * any other things of interest to potential I/U modelers;
              > * HO, O or any other scale or gauge.
              >
              > Photos should be sharp, of print quality, unedited and unretouched by
              > PhotoShop or other processes, JPEG, TIF or EPS files preferably
              > formated for PC. They should be approximately 8 X 10 inches in size
              > and 300 dpi. Film-based pix are also still acceptable.
              >
              > All photos used will be credited to the photographer and the
              > builder/owner.
              >
              > This is a possible opportunity to showcase a branch of model traction
              > that has been long overlooked by the mainstream model rail press.
              > (Yeah, I know: they all have.)
              >
              Doug,

              your last paragraph sounds interesting.... I have a few mystery / one
              off models ( mostly interurbans) which I would like to be shown to an
              larger audience. May send a few pictures off list, we then may discuss
              about what actually may suit your idea and how you want to have the
              respective models photographed.

              Sorry, no layout yet...

              Please contact me off list .

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14445 From: MikeS Date: 7/7/2010
              Subject: Collectible Toy Train Paper Yahoo Group
              Here to stay this time! Our group is dedicated to the preservation,
              understanding and appreciation of Toy Train Paper via the electronic medium. Need not be rare, just something you enjoy or find of interest. For example, our Home Page photo illustrates an American Flyer classic. I can't think of another factory offered dummy steamer. Can you? Ever seen one?

              Toy Train Paper is really one of the untapped and seldom focused upon areas within our hobby. As they say, "A picture is worth 10,000 words." If you have an interest or just a curiosity come on aboard. Look forward to hearing from you.

              Collectible_Toy_Train_ Paper Yahoo Group
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Collectible_Toy_Train_Paper/

              Mike Spanier
              List Owner & Moderator
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14446 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/7/2010
              Subject: Convention
              Not vintage, but is anyone coming to Milwaukee next week for the NMRA
              National?

              Let me know, maybe we can have a mini meet in my basement one evening.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14447 From: James Bartelt Date: 7/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Convention
              I will be there for the National Train Show on Friday and Sunday with the METRO Model Railroad Club. Ltd
               

              James Bartelt
              jimbartelt@...


              METRO RR Club
              http://www.metrorrclub.org


              METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2011
              http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html

               




              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, July 7, 2010 10:26:19 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Convention

               

              Not vintage, but is anyone coming to Milwaukee next week for the NMRA
              National?

              Let me know, maybe we can have a mini meet in my basement one evening.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14448 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 7/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Convention
              Lennard Stewart wrote:

                            I want be coming because I am planning to go to the 30th National Narrow Gauge Convention The first week of September in St. Louis.
              Lennard Stewart
              Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/


              Don Dellmann wrote:
               

              Not vintage, but is anyone coming to Milwaukee next week for the NMRA
              National?

              Let me know, maybe we can have a mini meet in my basement one evening.

              Don


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14449 From: rcjge Date: 7/8/2010
              Subject: ebay auction ID?
              Hey Fella's:

              I took a flyer on a batch of metal locomotive boilers/cabs and diesel shells! Here's a link to the auction...

              http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150462771631&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

              I was hoping some of you wizards could help me ID them. I recognize the Alco FA shell and the Alco HH shell and that a few are likely Bowser by wit of the Belpaire fireboxes. Can any one help???

              Thanks,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14450 From: John H Date: 7/9/2010
              Subject: Re: ebay auction ID?
              Gareth,

              There's 2 Mantua Mikado boiler casting (cabless), what looks to me to be Bowser NYC Pacific (K-11?), a dockside (appears to be Varney) and a bunch of Pennsy steamers.. well four at least. The two shorter ones may be Penn Line, maybe a 4-4-2 or 4-6-0 and possibly a 2-8-0 and the other two larger ones could be K4's, but that is a real stab in the dark.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Fella's:
              >
              > I took a flyer on a batch of metal locomotive boilers/cabs and diesel shells! Here's a link to the auction...
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150462771631&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              >
              > I was hoping some of you wizards could help me ID them. I recognize the Alco FA shell and the Alco HH shell and that a few are likely Bowser by wit of the Belpaire fireboxes. Can any one help???
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14451 From: Dst8596587@aol.com Date: 7/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Convention
              Don;
              I'll be there as our modular club is showing at the train show. I do not correspond much on the group but have a few vintage pieces.
              Don Stokes




              -----Original Message-----
              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, Jul 7, 2010 11:26 pm
              Subject: [vintageHO] Convention

               
              Not vintage, but is anyone coming to Milwaukee next week for the NMRA
              National?

              Let me know, maybe we can have a mini meet in my basement one evening.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14452 From: Lawrence Date: 7/9/2010
              Subject: Ladder Upgrades for Globe/Athearn/Varney stamped metal box and refri
              I have about a couple dozen of these really great cars from yesteryear and I run they regularly with Kadee wheelsets and couplers. The only comments I get from the other guys are about the way out of scale ladders. Has anyone upgraded the ladders on these and whose product did you use?

              Thanks.

              Dale
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14453 From: Jim Waterman Date: 7/9/2010
              Subject: ebay auction ID?
              Nice bunch of metal!
               
              I see two Penn Line/Bowser K4/L1 boilers on the left hand side. One may have been used on an I-1 (cab window broken out).
               
              There are two Penn Line/ Bowser E6/H9 boilers toward the center of the group. They are the two unpainted ones separated by the black one without a cab (a John English maybe?)
               
              I'm sure the rest of you guys can fill in the blanks.
               
              Jim Waterman
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14454 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/9/2010
              Subject: GMC?
              Have members encountered General Models Corporation H-O Kits?, I have owned a number of the O scale line but was unaware of a H-O range.  This recently won e-Bay model is nicely assembled, unfortunately the sprung metal trucks suffeed from the zinc pest and were mosly disintegated, a pair of KD Andrews were substituted.  Unfortunately no instructions or other paperwork accompanied the model, all information would be gratefully received. 
              Roger Aultman
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14455 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/9/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC? [2 Attachments]
              One I recall was the Pollock hot metal car. the kit is still around  gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 7:59 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] GMC? [2 Attachments]

              Have members encountered General Models Corporation H-O Kits?, I have owned a number of the O scale line but was unaware of a H-O range.  This recently won e-Bay model is nicely assembled, unfortunately the sprung metal trucks suffeed from the zinc pest and were mosly disintegated, a pair of KD Andrews were substituted.  Unfortunately no instructions or other paperwork accompanied the model, all information would be gratefully received. 
              Roger Aultman
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14456 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/9/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC?
              I always admired those cars but never owned one, was there a Ed Lee model also?   Roger
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Glenn476
              Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 10:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] GMC?

               

              One I recall was the Pollock hot metal car. the kit is still around  gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 7:59 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] GMC? [2 Attachments]

              Have members encountered General Models Corporation H-O Kits?, I have owned a number of the O scale line but was unaware of a H-O range.  This recently won e-Bay model is nicely assembled, unfortunately the sprung metal trucks suffeed from the zinc pest and were mosly disintegated, a pair of KD Andrews were substituted.  Unfortunately no instructions or other paperwork accompanied the model, all information would be gratefully received. 
              Roger Aultman
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14457 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Convention
              Only one other person wrote offlist, so I'm not planning anything, but as I
              told him, if anyone finds an evening with nothing they want to do, give me a
              call and ill give you directions, you're welcome to stop over, maybe one
              night if a couple vintage fans stopped by (Tues-Thur would be best).

              The layout sort of runs, but you could hold a prewar Varney streamlined car
              in your hot little hand <G>.

              My cell is 414-628-7942, or call me at work during the day 414-354-1414 or
              800-333-3331.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <Dst8596587@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 11:05 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Convention


              Don;
              I'll be there as our modular club is showing at the train show. I do not
              correspond much on the group but have a few vintage pieces.
              Don Stokes










              -----Original Message-----
              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, Jul 7, 2010 11:26 pm
              Subject: [vintageHO] Convention





              Not vintage, but is anyone coming to Milwaukee next week for the NMRA
              National?

              Let me know, maybe we can have a mini meet in my basement one evening.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14458 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/9/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC?
              I got one as a gift--it never registered on me --what would a carload of molten steel be doing in a freight train.  gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 9:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] GMC?

              I always admired those cars but never owned one, was there a Ed Lee model also?   Roger
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Glenn476
              Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 10:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] GMC?

               

              One I recall was the Pollock hot metal car. the kit is still around  gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 7:59 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] GMC? [2 Attachments]

              Have members encountered General Models Corporation H-O Kits?, I have owned a number of the O scale line but was unaware of a H-O range.  This recently won e-Bay model is nicely assembled, unfortunately the sprung metal trucks suffeed from the zinc pest and were mosly disintegated, a pair of KD Andrews were substituted.  Unfortunately no instructions or other paperwork accompanied the model, all information would be gratefully received. 
              Roger Aultman
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14459 From: jay matz Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC? [2 Attachments]
              Roger
              That GMC 02 is a Silver Streak Car.
              I never knew thay made work cars.
              They made some odd cars and 2 or 3 locos.
              Jay


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14460 From: MikeS Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC? [2 Attachments]
              Jay - How do you know it is a Silver Streak car?

              Mike Spanier

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote:
              >
              > Roger
              > That GMC 02 is a Silver Streak Car.
              > I never knew thay made work cars.
              > They made some odd cars and 2 or 3 locos.
              > Jay
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14461 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC?
              I have to agree with Jay, the Tru-Scale Silver streak bunk car, it's latest
              incarnation was Ye-Olde Huff'n puff kit no. 323. Check any Walther's
              catalog from about 1970 up to the mid 90's., or any tru-scale ad back to the
              late 50's.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "MikeS" <hspanier@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 8:53 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GMC?


              > Jay - How do you know it is a Silver Streak car?
              >
              > Mike Spanier
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Roger
              >> That GMC 02 is a Silver Streak Car.
              >> I never knew thay made work cars.
              >> They made some odd cars and 2 or 3 locos.
              >> Jay
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14462 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC?
              Right off the top of my head, I don't believe that Ed Lee made a Pollock --
              or any other -- Hot Metal car. Without checking into my collection, I
              don't really think that Ed Lee offered any cast metal cars, although I could be
              wrong. I know Ed Lee did produce some all-wood car kits -- such as the Ore
              Car kits -- MB-3 ATSF -- red, MB-3A Buckhorn Mines -- grey, MB-33 ATSF (box
              of 3) and MB-33A Buckhorn Mines (box of 3), which I have in my collection.

              In addition to General Models Corp., Model Engineering Works also made a
              Pollock Hot Metal car, as well as a Side-Dump Car. Authenticast made a
              "companion" Slag Car and several other cast metal special-use cars, like a Magor
              Side Dump Car and a Depressed Center Flat Car. Alexander Scale Models was
              another manufacturer to produce a Side Dump Car.

              While Hot Metal cars wouldn't be found in revenue service on main-line
              freight trains, they would be used if you modeled a steel plant (or part of one)
              and the cars would remain in-plant on the steel mill's property ferrying
              molten steel from one section of the plant to another. Such steel mills would
              receive special gondolas hauled in revenue freight trains, that were
              specifically designed to carry iron ore pellets. These revenue freight trains
              would be designated to haul that commodity only (as "unit" iron ore trains),
              and would consist of entire trains of these special gondolas. Ray F.W.
              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14463 From: jay matz Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC?
              Mike
              I have built many SS work cars to know one when I see one. The door casting is a shure give away.  It is a silver Streak Car.
              Jay



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote:
              >
              > Roger
              > That GMC 02 is a Silver Streak Car.
              > I never knew thay made work cars.
              > They made some odd cars and 2 or 3 locos.
              > Jay
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14464 From: Robert Karnisky Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: GMC?
              --- On Sat, 7/10/10, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:
               
              "In addition to General Models Corp., Model Engineering Works also made a
              Pollock Hot Metal car..."
               
              So did Walthers, State Tool & Die, and Buckeye:
               
               
              "While Hot Metal cars wouldn't be found in revenue service on main-line freight trains, they would be used if you modeled a steel plant (or part of one) and the cars would remain in-plant on the steel mill's property ferrying molten steel from one section of the plant to another."
               
              In the south Chicago area, the Indiana Harbor Belt hauled molten steel in "torpedo" ladle cars from various local blast furnaces to a rolling mill in Riverdale, crossing (among other roads) the Chicago South Shore (now NICDT) at grade:
               
               
              Scoll about 25% of the way down.
               
              - Rob Karnisky

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14465 From: Denny Anspach Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Ladder Upgrades for Globe/Athearn/Varney stamped metal box and refri
              I too enjoy running a fair number of these cars on my layout, but
              generally, I leave the ladders alone: first because they are a part
              of the historic fabric of the car, and second because they are hard to
              remove and replace without damage difficult to hide or repair. Now,
              among the three mentioned, only the plastic oversized ladders on the
              metal Varney cars really bother me- and they do just that. The stamped
              metal Globe and Athearn ladders are really not objectionable, given
              other non-scale elements of these cars.

              Now, what really can bother me about running these cars in amongst
              much more scale models are the prominently-visible running boards,
              which can be about a scale 6 or 8" thick, but can look like 12"
              thickness. A lot of these are broken due to zincpest, necessitating
              replacement under any circumstances. My preferred solution is to
              remove these running boards, bagging and tagging the ones that are
              intact (to remain with the car when passed to the next owner),
              discarding those that are in pieces, and replacing the boards with
              Kadee molded boards, which in most instances fit like a glove, and
              look superb while doing so. For "wood" boards, I commonly use Accurail
              or Tichy or Details West boards. I fasten all of them down with
              *tiny* spots of Barge Cement, or Goo, all well hidden beneath any type
              of running board that might be installed.

              I have had many admiring comments about how this simple running board
              exchange can make these attractive historical cars so much at home in
              the company of current models.

              Denny

              Denny S. Anspach MD
              Sacramento
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14466 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC?
              Thanks for all the replies, do you think GMC used SS cars or the car was in the wrong box?   Roger
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 9:26 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: GMC?

               

              I have to agree with Jay, the Tru-Scale Silver streak bunk car, it's latest
              incarnation was Ye-Olde Huff'n puff kit no. 323. Check any Walther's
              catalog from about 1970 up to the mid 90's., or any tru-scale ad back to the
              late 50's.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "MikeS" <hspanier@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 8:53 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GMC?

              > Jay - How do you know it is a Silver Streak car?
              >
              > Mike Spanier
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Roger
              >> That GMC 02 is a Silver Streak Car.
              >> I never knew thay made work cars.
              >> They made some odd cars and 2 or 3 locos.
              >> Jay
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14467 From: rcjge Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: ebay auction ID?
              Hey Jon & Jim:

              Thanks for the input. I cross posted on the Yardbird list and it's been pretty quiet like here so far. I had thought it would get jumped on by a few different guys but it's summer and all lists seem to slow down as BBQ-ing and emailing are difficult to do simultaneously! ;-)

              -Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14468 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC?
              Rob, I forgot about Buckeye Model's Hot Metal cars. I have some in my
              coillection. I have some literature from them somewhere, also, showing several
              types of hot metal cars; I believe even the long ("Torpedo") ladle cars you
              describe as being used on the IHB. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14469 From: jay matz Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC?
              Roger
              The car was in the wrong box.
              The SS work cars have been around since 1950 or before.
              Jay
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 9:26 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: GMC?

               
              I have to agree with Jay, the Tru-Scale Silver streak bunk car, it's latest
              incarnation was Ye-Olde Huff'n puff kit no. 323. Check any Walther's
              catalog from about 1970 up to the mid 90's., or any tru-scale ad back to the
              late 50's.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
              http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
              Owner
              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "MikeS" <hspanier@aol. com>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
              Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 8:53 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GMC?

              > Jay - How do you know it is a Silver Streak car?
              >
              > Mike Spanier
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Roger
              >> That GMC 02 is a Silver Streak Car.
              >> I never knew thay made work cars.
              >> They made some odd cars and 2 or 3 locos.
              >> Jay
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14470 From: Richard White Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: ebay auction ID?
              Second from the left looks like a John English 4-6-2/2-8-2 boiler. Regards- Richard White
               

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: sprinthag@...
              Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 07:38:10 +0000
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: ebay auction ID?

               
              Gareth,

              There's 2 Mantua Mikado boiler casting (cabless), what looks to me to be Bowser NYC Pacific (K-11?), a dockside (appears to be Varney) and a bunch of Pennsy steamers.. well four at least. The two shorter ones may be Penn Line, maybe a 4-4-2 or 4-6-0 and possibly a 2-8-0 and the other two larger ones could be K4's, but that is a real stab in the dark.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Fella's:
              >
              > I took a flyer on a batch of metal locomotive boilers/cabs and diesel shells! Here's a link to the auction...
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150462771631&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              >
              > I was hoping some of you wizards could help me ID them. I recognize the Alco FA shell and the Alco HH shell and that a few are likely Bowser by wit of the Belpaire fireboxes. Can any one help???
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >




              The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get started.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14471 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC?
              As a side comment to these cars--I have suggested to Bill Schaumberg at RMC
              that a companion series to the "Essential Freight Cars" series be undertaken
              as "Non-Essential Freight Cars"--we have all received models as gifts--my
              comments on the Pollock car referred to one such--These have come from
              family members and good friends--whop naturally expect to see these cars in
              service when they visit out layouts. It would help to learn a bit about how
              these cars were used and under what circumstances they might be seen.
              Another car I would put in this category is the 4-truck, 200-ton flatcar
              that was made both by Roundhouse and Athearn. The Athearn car usually came
              with a load of 3 orange pipes which probably would have weighed less than 20
              tons. Some typical loads could be discussed. Is this an idea? Can anyone
              expand on this list?

              gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <erieberk@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 7:57 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] GMC?


              > Right off the top of my head, I don't believe that Ed Lee made a
              > Pollock --
              > or any other -- Hot Metal car. Without checking into my collection, I
              > don't really think that Ed Lee offered any cast metal cars, although I
              > could be
              > wrong. I know Ed Lee did produce some all-wood car kits -- such as the
              > Ore
              > Car kits -- MB-3 ATSF -- red, MB-3A Buckhorn Mines -- grey, MB-33 ATSF
              > (box
              > of 3) and MB-33A Buckhorn Mines (box of 3), which I have in my collection.
              >
              > In addition to General Models Corp., Model Engineering Works also made a
              > Pollock Hot Metal car, as well as a Side-Dump Car. Authenticast made a
              > "companion" Slag Car and several other cast metal special-use cars, like a
              > Magor
              > Side Dump Car and a Depressed Center Flat Car. Alexander Scale Models was
              > another manufacturer to produce a Side Dump Car.
              >
              > While Hot Metal cars wouldn't be found in revenue service on main-line
              > freight trains, they would be used if you modeled a steel plant (or part
              > of one)
              > and the cars would remain in-plant on the steel mill's property ferrying
              > molten steel from one section of the plant to another. Such steel mills
              > would
              > receive special gondolas hauled in revenue freight trains, that were
              > specifically designed to carry iron ore pellets. These revenue freight
              > trains
              > would be designated to haul that commodity only (as "unit" iron ore
              > trains),
              > and would consist of entire trains of these special gondolas. Ray F.W.
              > </HTML>
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14472 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/10/2010
              Subject: Re: GMC?
              
              Jay I was afraid of that, do you have a idea which H-0 cars GMC did make?   Roger 
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jay matz
              Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 3:44 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: GMC?

               

              Roger
              The car was in the wrong box.
              The SS work cars have been around since 1950 or before.
              Jay
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 9:26 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: GMC?

               
              I have to agree with Jay, the Tru-Scale Silver streak bunk car, it's latest
              incarnation was Ye-Olde Huff'n puff kit no. 323. Check any Walther's
              catalog from about 1970 up to the mid 90's., or any tru-scale ad back to the
              late 50's.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@ prodigy.net
              http://www.flickr. com/photos/ don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube. com/user/ CreamCityTractio n
              Owner
              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/vintageHO
              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "MikeS" <hspanier@aol. com>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
              Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 8:53 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: GMC?

              > Jay - How do you know it is a Silver Streak car?
              >
              > Mike Spanier
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Roger
              >> That GMC 02 is a Silver Streak Car.
              >> I never knew thay made work cars.
              >> They made some odd cars and 2 or 3 locos.
              >> Jay
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14473 From: RalphB Date: 7/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              While Athearn's 8-axle flat is a riveted design, the D&H (my employer for 27 years) had 4 very similar all-welded cars, numbers 16153-16156. They were used primarily to transport electric generators produced at GE's Schenectady (NY) plant. Since the plant was served by both D&H and New York Central (later PC, Conrail), it was not unusual to see these cars going out on either line.

              One of the primary routes for these cars was the short trip from the GE plant to the Port of Albany for furtherance via special heavy-lift ships to destinations around the world. In fact, they're still making these moves, with newer TTX and Kasgro Rail cars, on the D&H (d/b/a Canadian Pacific). Another thing hasn't changed; these cars are always accompanied by spacer cars - frequently plain flat cars, but can be anything that meets weight limits (used to be 50,000 lbs max, but is now around 60,000 lbs or a bit higher). Trains can be as simple as a single load with 2 spacers up to five or six cars with the appropriate number of spacers.

              Ralph B

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Glenn wrote:
              >
              > Another car I would put in this category is the 4-truck, 200-ton flatcar
              > that was made both by Roundhouse and Athearn. The Athearn car usually came
              > with a load of 3 orange pipes which probably would have weighed less than 20
              > tons. Some typical loads could be discussed. Is this an idea? Can anyone
              > expand on this list?
              >
              > gj
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14474 From: Mike Sloane Date: 7/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              I have a couple of those cars (one by Athearn and the other a very close
              Chinese copy) on my layout. I don't ever recall seeing a Roundhouse
              version of that car. It is a real diddle to get all 8 wheelsets on the
              rails at the same time. Changing over to metal wheelsets helped them run
              MUCH better (especially the Chinese version with the "pizza cutter"
              wheels), but it still helps to have them relatively heavily weighted. I
              didn't realize that they were run with idler cars front and back when
              loaded; I will have to remember that whenever I decide to put them in a
              train.

              Thanks for the input, Ralph!

              Mike

              On 7/11/2010 9:17 AM, RalphB wrote:
              >
              >
              > While Athearn's 8-axle flat is a riveted design, the D&H (my employer
              > for 27 years) had 4 very similar all-welded cars, numbers 16153-16156.
              > They were used primarily to transport electric generators produced at
              > GE's Schenectady (NY) plant. Since the plant was served by both D&H and
              > New York Central (later PC, Conrail), it was not unusual to see these
              > cars going out on either line.
              >
              > One of the primary routes for these cars was the short trip from the GE
              > plant to the Port of Albany for furtherance via special heavy-lift ships
              > to destinations around the world. In fact, they're still making these
              > moves, with newer TTX and Kasgro Rail cars, on the D&H (d/b/a Canadian
              > Pacific). Another thing hasn't changed; these cars are always
              > accompanied by spacer cars - frequently plain flat cars, but can be
              > anything that meets weight limits (used to be 50,000 lbs max, but is now
              > around 60,000 lbs or a bit higher). Trains can be as simple as a single
              > load with 2 spacers up to five or six cars with the appropriate number
              > of spacers.
              >
              > Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14475 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              That's my point--what are appropriate loads for these cars? And where did
              they run?gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 6:17 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)


              > While Athearn's 8-axle flat is a riveted design, the D&H (my employer for
              > 27 years) had 4 very similar all-welded cars, numbers 16153-16156. They
              > were used primarily to transport electric generators produced at GE's
              > Schenectady (NY) plant. Since the plant was served by both D&H and New
              > York Central (later PC, Conrail), it was not unusual to see these cars
              > going out on either line.
              >
              > One of the primary routes for these cars was the short trip from the GE
              > plant to the Port of Albany for furtherance via special heavy-lift ships
              > to destinations around the world. In fact, they're still making these
              > moves, with newer TTX and Kasgro Rail cars, on the D&H (d/b/a Canadian
              > Pacific). Another thing hasn't changed; these cars are always accompanied
              > by spacer cars - frequently plain flat cars, but can be anything that
              > meets weight limits (used to be 50,000 lbs max, but is now around 60,000
              > lbs or a bit higher). Trains can be as simple as a single load with 2
              > spacers up to five or six cars with the appropriate number of spacers.
              >
              > Ralph B
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Glenn wrote:
              >>
              >> Another car I would put in this category is the 4-truck, 200-ton flatcar
              >> that was made both by Roundhouse and Athearn. The Athearn car usually
              >> came
              >> with a load of 3 orange pipes which probably would have weighed less than
              >> 20
              >> tons. Some typical loads could be discussed. Is this an idea? Can
              >> anyone
              >> expand on this list?
              >>
              >> gj
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14476 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              Roundhouse bade a die-cast version in the fifties--had paper printed side
              inserts. gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 6:44 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)


              >I have a couple of those cars (one by Athearn and the other a very close
              > Chinese copy) on my layout. I don't ever recall seeing a Roundhouse
              > version of that car. It is a real diddle to get all 8 wheelsets on the
              > rails at the same time. Changing over to metal wheelsets helped them run
              > MUCH better (especially the Chinese version with the "pizza cutter"
              > wheels), but it still helps to have them relatively heavily weighted. I
              > didn't realize that they were run with idler cars front and back when
              > loaded; I will have to remember that whenever I decide to put them in a
              > train.
              >
              > Thanks for the input, Ralph!
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 7/11/2010 9:17 AM, RalphB wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> While Athearn's 8-axle flat is a riveted design, the D&H (my employer
              >> for 27 years) had 4 very similar all-welded cars, numbers 16153-16156.
              >> They were used primarily to transport electric generators produced at
              >> GE's Schenectady (NY) plant. Since the plant was served by both D&H and
              >> New York Central (later PC, Conrail), it was not unusual to see these
              >> cars going out on either line.
              >>
              >> One of the primary routes for these cars was the short trip from the GE
              >> plant to the Port of Albany for furtherance via special heavy-lift ships
              >> to destinations around the world. In fact, they're still making these
              >> moves, with newer TTX and Kasgro Rail cars, on the D&H (d/b/a Canadian
              >> Pacific). Another thing hasn't changed; these cars are always
              >> accompanied by spacer cars - frequently plain flat cars, but can be
              >> anything that meets weight limits (used to be 50,000 lbs max, but is now
              >> around 60,000 lbs or a bit higher). Trains can be as simple as a single
              >> load with 2 spacers up to five or six cars with the appropriate number
              >> of spacers.
              >>
              >> Ralph B
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14477 From: keith gutshall Date: 7/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              Hello Glenn
              I see the newer four truck flat cars at the GE factory at Pensacola,FL
               with wind generators on them.
               They put two of the generator bodies on one car.

               Keith
              Deep Run Portage
              Back Shop
              " The Lizard Works"

              --- On Sun, 7/11/10, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

              From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, July 11, 2010, 10:23 AM

               
              That's my point--what are appropriate loads for these cars? And where did
              they run?gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 6:17 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)

              > While Athearn's 8-axle flat is a riveted design, the D&H (my employer for
              > 27 years) had 4 very similar all-welded cars, numbers 16153-16156. They
              > were used primarily to transport electric generators produced at GE's
              > Schenectady (NY) plant. Since the plant was served by both D&H and New
              > York Central (later PC, Conrail), it was not unusual to see these cars
              > going out on either line.
              >
              > One of the primary routes for these cars was the short trip from the GE
              > plant to the Port of Albany for furtherance via special heavy-lift ships
              > to destinations around the world. In fact, they're still making these
              > moves, with newer TTX and Kasgro Rail cars, on the D&H (d/b/a Canadian
              > Pacific). Another thing hasn't changed; these cars are always accompanied
              > by spacer cars - frequently plain flat cars, but can be anything that
              > meets weight limits (used to be 50,000 lbs max, but is now around 60,000
              > lbs or a bit higher). Trains can be as simple as a single load with 2
              > spacers up to five or six cars with the appropriate number of spacers.
              >
              > Ralph B
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Glenn wrote:
              >>
              >> Another car I would put in this category is the 4-truck, 200-ton flatcar
              >> that was made both by Roundhouse and Athearn. The Athearn car usually
              >> came
              >> with a load of 3 orange pipes which probably would have weighed less than
              >> 20
              >> tons. Some typical loads could be discussed. Is this an idea? Can
              >> anyone
              >> expand on this list?
              >>
              >> gj
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14478 From: Dale Hokanson Date: 7/11/2010
              Subject: Ladder Upgrades for Globe/Athearn/Varney stamped metal box and refri
              Denny

              Thanks. Now you made me start looking at the running boards :( I am not a
              real purist either way .... I don't mind if the model isn't perfectly to
              scale/prototype so long as it looks good and is interesting in a consist
              behind a couple Fs AND I don't mind if I alter the original antique if it
              makes it look a little more prototypical. I use KDs and upgraded trucks, KD
              if I can afford it. I have been paying about $5 each for these cars so I can
              afford a little touch up here and there. I am still looking for better
              ladders and I will certainly look into upgrading some of those running
              boards.

              I saw an ad in an old MR where Athearn or Varney (senior moment) said they had
              like a hundred different paint schemes on the box cars. Can that be true? And
              does anyone have a list of those schemes?

              Also, did the Varney's go from metal underframes to plastic underframes or the
              other way? And (lots of questions) I recently bought some Athearn metal kits
              in plastic bags at a swap. Are these from a current company or just someone
              bagging older kits? Thanks again.

              Dale in Spokane


              Lawrence D. (Dale) Hokanson
              dale.hokanson@...



              ____________________________________________________________________
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14479 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 7/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              I have one of the Roundhouse die-cast 8-axle flat cars.
               It had multiple cardboard sides with different road numbers.
               
               --- On Sun, 7/11/10, Glenn476 <glenn476@...> wrote:

              From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, July 11, 2010, 8:24 AM

              Roundhouse bade a die-cast version in the fifties--had paper printed side
              inserts.  gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 6:44 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)


              >I have a couple of those cars (one by Athearn and the other a very close
              > Chinese copy) on my layout. I don't ever recall seeing a Roundhouse
              > version of that car. It is a real diddle to get all 8 wheelsets on the
              > rails at the same time. Changing over to metal wheelsets helped them run
              > MUCH better (especially the Chinese version with the "pizza cutter"
              > wheels), but it still helps to have them relatively heavily weighted. I
              > didn't realize that they were run with idler cars front and back when
              > loaded; I will have to remember that whenever I decide to put them in a
              > train.
              >
              > Thanks for the input, Ralph!
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 7/11/2010 9:17 AM, RalphB wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> While Athearn's 8-axle flat is a riveted design, the D&H (my employer
              >> for 27 years) had 4 very similar all-welded cars, numbers 16153-16156.
              >> They were used primarily to transport electric generators produced at
              >> GE's Schenectady (NY) plant. Since the plant was served by both D&H and
              >> New York Central (later PC, Conrail), it was not unusual to see these
              >> cars going out on either line.
              >>
              >> One of the primary routes for these cars was the short trip from the GE
              >> plant to the Port of Albany for furtherance via special heavy-lift ships
              >> to destinations around the world. In fact, they're still making these
              >> moves, with newer TTX and Kasgro Rail cars, on the D&H (d/b/a Canadian
              >> Pacific). Another thing hasn't changed; these cars are always
              >> accompanied by spacer cars - frequently plain flat cars, but can be
              >> anything that meets weight limits (used to be 50,000 lbs max, but is now
              >> around 60,000 lbs or a bit higher). Trains can be as simple as a single
              >> load with 2 spacers up to five or six cars with the appropriate number
              >> of spacers.
              >>
              >> Ralph B
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >



              ------------------------------------

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                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14480 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              Thanks Ralph, for supplying the info on the D&H's use of their 200 Ton
              Flats. I found it very interesting. Owing to Athearn's close similarity to
              Roundhouse/MDC in their production of a 50', 200 Ton Flatcar, it could appear
              that perhaps Athearn copied MDC or may even have bought the dies, although I
              have no way of verifying this or even of knowing whether this took place --
              they both look very close though. They both offered the riveted version
              model, rather than the later version (by Athearn) being a welded version model,
              but then, Athearn came out with theirs only about 13 or 14 years after
              MDC's..

              The molded plastic (styrene) 200 Ton Flat produced by Athearn definitely
              needs to be weighted though, although I doubt very much if the MDC's die cast
              metal 200 Ton Flat would.as it's casting must weigh at least (or very close
              to the) 4.5 ounces that would be required for it under NMRA standards. I
              know they track very well without having a load, even as Roundhouse advertised
              in their catalogs. Roundhouse brought their 200 Ton Flatcars out in the
              mid-'50's, as 5 roadnames -- F-100 PRR, F-101 C&NW, F-102 D&H, F-103 NYC and
              F-104 Westinghouse. At least some of the car numbers can be found in the
              Files section under that manufacturer. I don't remember if I included all the
              car numbers in my collection or not. When Roundhouse introduced the rivited
              200 Ton D&H Flatcar in 1957, I might assume that the model was prototypical
              back then, almost 55 years ago, even though their present 200 Ton Flats
              have been all-welded for at least the past 27 years.

              Preceeding Roundhouse in the production of a riveted version of a 200 Ton
              Flatcar was Red Ball, going back to when Howell Day had the company. He
              offered a 46', 200 Ton Flat (Catalog # K-49) that was advertised as weighing 3
              1/4 oz. It came with a load (of their choice), which quite possibly brought
              it up to or near the weight of that which the NRMA now recommends for its
              length.

              Athearn first produced their 200 Ton Flat at least by 1971 (I'm missing the
              Walthers 1970 catalog , but it's not listesd in 1969 or before). At that
              time, they offered Westinghouse, C&NW, ERIE and PRR. Ray F.W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14481 From: Carl Neste Date: 7/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?) [3 Attachments]
              I have one of those Chinese knock-offs. No manufacturers name on the car at all, but I always thought it was AHM. It's lettered for the NYC as well, number 455042.
              Carl


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Marinaccio
              Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 11:52 AM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?) [3 Attachments]

               

              I have one of the Roundhouse die-cast 8-axle flat cars.
               It had multiple cardboard sides with different road numbers.
               
               --- On Sun, 7/11/10, Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net> wrote:

              From: Glenn476 <glenn476@4fast. net>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Sunday, July 11, 2010, 8:24 AM

              Roundhouse bade a die-cast version in the fifties--had paper printed side
              inserts.  gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mike Sloane" <mikesloane@verizon. net>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
              Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 6:44 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)


              >I have a couple of those cars (one by Athearn and the other a very close
              > Chinese copy) on my layout. I don't ever recall seeing a Roundhouse
              > version of that car. It is a real diddle to get all 8 wheelsets on the
              > rails at the same time. Changing over to metal wheelsets helped them run
              > MUCH better (especially the Chinese version with the "pizza cutter"
              > wheels), but it still helps to have them relatively heavily weighted. I
              > didn't realize that they were run with idler cars front and back when
              > loaded; I will have to remember that whenever I decide to put them in a
              > train.
              >
              > Thanks for the input, Ralph!
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 7/11/2010 9:17 AM, RalphB wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> While Athearn's 8-axle flat is a riveted design, the D&H (my employer
              >> for 27 years) had 4 very similar all-welded cars, numbers 16153-16156.
              >> They were used primarily to transport electric generators produced at
              >> GE's Schenectady (NY) plant. Since the plant was served by both D&H and
              >> New York Central (later PC, Conrail), it was not unusual to see these
              >> cars going out on either line.
              >>
              >> One of the primary routes for these cars was the short trip from the GE
              >> plant to the Port of Albany for furtherance via special heavy-lift ships
              >> to destinations around the world. In fact, they're still making these
              >> moves, with newer TTX and Kasgro Rail cars, on the D&H (d/b/a Canadian
              >> Pacific). Another thing hasn't changed; these cars are always
              >> accompanied by spacer cars - frequently plain flat cars, but can be
              >> anything that meets weight limits (used to be 50,000 lbs max, but is now
              >> around 60,000 lbs or a bit higher). Trains can be as simple as a single
              >> load with 2 spacers up to five or six cars with the appropriate number
              >> of spacers.
              >>
              >> Ralph B
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >



              ------------ --------- --------- ------

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                  http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14482 From: Ken Date: 7/11/2010
              Subject: MDC Athearn Crown and others,,,,Heavy-duty flats
              ...I started a collection of 8 axle Heavy-duty flats years ago starting with Athearn, Crown and Bachmann ones. Then last year I bid on
              another one on ebay. It was described as an Athearn with metal trucks. It was won with a 3.00 bid and 3.00 shipping. It arrived and i was surprised to see it was diecast. I measured it and compared it to an undecorated athearn plastic version. The frame is identical down to tooling marks. So being a bit of a sluth I called a friend who worked at MDC in the 50s. Athearn and Mentear of MDC traded tooling back and forth all the time. (Unlike today where a lawsuit forces tooling to be traded) As far as being prototype it was based on a PRR flat. But it is too thick, So if anyone of you has a mill you just need to take about 1/16 off the top deck of the frame. The deck will still fit fine with shorter screws. I have copper plated a few so I can solder Cal scale brake ratchets on the deck. I also added grabs and stirrup steps. It makes them look as nice as a brass model. Actually better. Two businesses on our clubs layout will need 20 of these and I finally have that quota filled. As a prototype These cars were modified all the time. Short brake staffs, tabs welded to the deck all sorts of hold downs. No reason to keep them as molded.

              Ken
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14483 From: rcjge Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              Anyone else seen this Red Ball H-16-44 unit up for auction on Ebay?

              http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200493706780&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI

              Can't seem to find much info on it. Nothing on Ho-Seeker.

              The reserve on the auction is $175. Is that realistic?

              Thanks,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14484 From: rcjge Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Nice Varney Steam
              Did anyone on the list grab the Mikado Jim mentioned? I was watching it and intended to bid, but things are just too iffy in life right now so I held fire. At just over $200 it came in a little lower than I expected.

              Regards,
              Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Normally I wouldn't mention it but there are some really nice, good looking Varney steam engines on Ebay.
              >
              >
              > 170509057529 Varney 2-8-2 post war Super model with V-2 motor and sprung and equalized drivers. Tender is the Varney non embossed Long Distance Brass tender.
              >
              > 170509055884 Varney 2-8-4 Berkshire later model with open frame motor and if my eyes see right Box Pok drivers. Probably the economy model with rigid frame. Has the non embossed Long Distance brass tender also.
              >
              >
              > Also I know some were interested in the Varney Brass streamlined body. Go to 330448260201 and you will find what looks like a nearly complete kit. I say nearly because I do not see the 2 brass pieces for the skirting.
              >
              > No I have nothing to do with them and I won't be bidding as I have already. Just thought they are nice Varney examples.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14485 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              Gareth, I'm not an imported brass expert, but I don't think that reserve
              is too far off the mark. This engine was pictured on a Howell Day postcard
              dated January 1, 1969 and was mounted on the cover of the Red Ball Catalog
              #11. As such, I think it's fair to state that this engine was imported during
              the previous (1968) year. While I can't give you an original price for
              this engine, Red Ball's PRR K-4 imported in 1968 was priced at $67.50 as per
              the January 1974 issue of "The Brass Browser." Diesel engine models generally
              run about 2/3 to 3/4 the price of steam models, so we can estimate it at
              around $45 to $50 when new. As it appears to be a display model and is custom
              painted, this of course adds to its value; custom painting is not cheap.
              Probably a fair price at between 3.5 and 3.8 the cost of the original 1968
              price, especially when adding in the custom paint job. Ray </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14486 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Nice Varney Steam
              Missed by a few cents! Arghhhh!

              On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 8:12 AM, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
               

              Did anyone on the list grab the Mikado Jim mentioned? I was watching it and intended to bid, but things are just too iffy in life right now so I held fire. At just over $200 it came in a little lower than I expected.

              Regards,
              Gareth



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Normally I wouldn't mention it but there are some really nice, good looking Varney steam engines on Ebay.
              >
              >
              > 170509057529 Varney 2-8-2 post war Super model with V-2 motor and sprung and equalized drivers. Tender is the Varney non embossed Long Distance Brass tender.
              >
              > 170509055884 Varney 2-8-4 Berkshire later model with open frame motor and if my eyes see right Box Pok drivers. Probably the economy model with rigid frame. Has the non embossed Long Distance brass tender also.
              >
              >
              > Also I know some were interested in the Varney Brass streamlined body. Go to 330448260201 and you will find what looks like a nearly complete kit. I say nearly because I do not see the 2 brass pieces for the skirting.
              >
              > No I have nothing to do with them and I won't be bidding as I have already. Just thought they are nice Varney examples.
              >
              > Jim H
              >




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14487 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Nice Varney Steam
              Wasn't me...although I was watching it too. I would have hoped for a finish of ~$220 given the great condition. I think I will hold onto mine fo a bit longer..
               
              @ Gareth... How's $16 + shipping? and I will blast the shell.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 9:21:25 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Nice Varney Steam

               

              Missed by a few cents! Arghhhh!

              On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 8:12 AM, rcjge <jgpedwards@gmail. com> wrote:
               

              Did anyone on the list grab the Mikado Jim mentioned? I was watching it and intended to bid, but things are just too iffy in life right now so I held fire. At just over $200 it came in a little lower than I expected.

              Regards,
              Gareth



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Normally I wouldn't mention it but there are some really nice, good looking Varney steam engines on Ebay.
              >
              >
              > 170509057529 Varney 2-8-2 post war Super model with V-2 motor and sprung and equalized drivers. Tender is the Varney non embossed Long Distance Brass tender.
              >
              > 170509055884 Varney 2-8-4 Berkshire later model with open frame motor and if my eyes see right Box Pok drivers. Probably the economy model with rigid frame. Has the non embossed Long Distance brass tender also.
              >
              >
              > Also I know some were interested in the Varney Brass streamlined body. Go to 330448260201 and you will find what looks like a nearly complete kit. I say nearly because I do not see the 2 brass pieces for the skirting.
              >
              > No I have nothing to do with them and I won't be bidding as I have already. Just thought they are nice Varney examples.
              >
              > Jim H
              >




              --
              Regards,
              Walter

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14488 From: rcjge Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Nice Varney Steam
              Hey Guys:

              I was originally gonna go $250 as I'd wanted a Super Mikado, but I've been fighting a chronic stomach problem of late and looking for a new place so my world seems too up in the air to spend that kind of money. Besides I just bought that batch of boilers/cabs and diesel shells... don't even know what I'm gonna do with them.

              Sean on the Shark, yeah get me a shipping price 1st Class Int'l and then fire me a PP invoice...

              The other reason I didn't bid on the Mike was I haven't sent my broken Consolie to Dan at YB Trains yet! He has been too busy so I've waited. I'll do that once I get relocated...

              -Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Wasn't me...although I was watching it too. I would have hoped for a finish
              > of ~$220 given the great condition. I think I will hold onto mine fo a bit
              > longer..
              >
              >
              > @ Gareth... How's $16 + shipping? and I will blast the shell.
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 9:21:25 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Nice Varney Steam
              >
              >  
              > Missed by a few cents! Arghhhh!
              >
              >
              > On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 8:12 AM, rcjge <jgpedwards@gmail. com> wrote:
              >
              >  
              > >Did anyone on the list grab the Mikado Jim mentioned? I was watching it and
              > >intended to bid, but things are just too iffy in life right now so I held fire.
              > >At just over $200 it came in a little lower than I expected.
              > >
              > >Regards,
              > >Gareth
              > >
              > >
              > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Normally I wouldn't mention it but there are some really nice, good looking
              > >>Varney steam engines on Ebay.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> 170509057529 Varney 2-8-2 post war Super model with V-2 motor and sprung and
              > >>equalized drivers. Tender is the Varney non embossed Long Distance Brass tender.
              > >>
              > >> 170509055884 Varney 2-8-4 Berkshire later model with open frame motor and if my
              > >>eyes see right Box Pok drivers. Probably the economy model with rigid frame. Has
              > >>the non embossed Long Distance brass tender also.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Also I know some were interested in the Varney Brass streamlined body. Go to
              > >>330448260201 and you will find what looks like a nearly complete kit. I say
              > >>nearly because I do not see the 2 brass pieces for the skirting.
              > >>
              > >> No I have nothing to do with them and I won't be bidding as I have already.
              > >>Just thought they are nice Varney examples.
              > >>
              > >> Jim H
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Regards,
              > Walter
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14489 From: rcjge Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              Hi Ray:

              Wow, that was wonderful help, and since no good deed goes unpunished would you happen to know what the power for this was? I had suggested to the guy, Lindsay, he believes KMT. Do you happen to know? Can it be made into a decent runner?

              Thanks,
              Gareth


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
              >
              > Gareth, I'm not an imported brass expert, but I don't think that reserve
              > is too far off the mark. This engine was pictured on a Howell Day postcard
              > dated January 1, 1969 and was mounted on the cover of the Red Ball Catalog
              > #11. As such, I think it's fair to state that this engine was imported during
              > the previous (1968) year. While I can't give you an original price for
              > this engine, Red Ball's PRR K-4 imported in 1968 was priced at $67.50 as per
              > the January 1974 issue of "The Brass Browser." Diesel engine models generally
              > run about 2/3 to 3/4 the price of steam models, so we can estimate it at
              > around $45 to $50 when new. As it appears to be a display model and is custom
              > painted, this of course adds to its value; custom painting is not cheap.
              > Probably a fair price at between 3.5 and 3.8 the cost of the original 1968
              > price, especially when adding in the custom paint job. Ray </HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14490 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 7:10 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.


              > Anyone else seen this Red Ball H-16-44 unit up for auction on Ebay?
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200493706780&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI
              >
              > Can't seem to find much info on it. Nothing on Ho-Seeker.
              >
              > The reserve on the auction is $175. Is that realistic?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth

              If I was the seller I'd be satisfied if it went for a hundred bucks.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14491 From: jim heckard Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Nice Varney Steam
               
               
                     I just got back from a real nice vacation where I now need a vacation to rest up these old weary bones. I was able to follow the Ebay auctions for both Varney engines. Normally I would not even mention an item on Ebay because it might actually cost the final winning bidder a little extra because more people know about an item. I only mentioned it before we left on our trip because I felt the items were in such good shape.
               
                  As to the price they went for I guess you would file it under subjective.  Condition, how bad you might want the item, even some recent sales all come into play.  I felt the final prices were good from a buyers perspective. I thought the Berkshire might go a little higher but I don't think either winner ( not me ) will be disappointed assuming the motor and drives work decent. Remember that Super Mikado is almost a "senior citizen" .
               
                   Special to Sean N,
               
                  I received the box of trail mix, aka the Red Ball SW-1 today. All is fine. Nice .  I have the parts in the soup ( brake fluid ) cleaning already. I think that one bad bolster will be no problem because when I add the Lindsay power unit it will not be needed. ( Anyone having a Red Ball bolster that would want to part with it I will take it since it seems a normal part.) The only problem is when I get the time and patience to get to it since I will have to cut out the floor to install the motor . Till then I might just make it dummy engine.
               
               
                                                         Jim H
               
               
               
                
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 10:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Nice Varney Steam

               

              Hey Guys:

              I was originally gonna go $250 as I'd wanted a Super Mikado, but I've been fighting a chronic stomach problem of late and looking for a new place so my world seems too up in the air to spend that kind of money. Besides I just bought that batch of boilers/cabs and diesel shells... don't even know what I'm gonna do with them.

              Sean on the Shark, yeah get me a shipping price 1st Class Int'l and then fire me a PP invoice...

              The other reason I didn't bid on the Mike was I haven't sent my broken Consolie to Dan at YB Trains yet! He has been too busy so I've waited. I'll do that once I get relocated...

              -Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Wasn't me...although I was watching it too. I would have hoped for a finish
              > of ~$220 given the great condition. I think I will hold onto mine fo a bit
              > longer..
              >
              >
              > @ Gareth... How's $16 + shipping? and I will blast the shell.
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 9:21:25 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Nice Varney Steam
              >
              >  
              > Missed by a few cents! Arghhhh!
              >
              >
              > On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 8:12 AM, rcjge <jgpedwards@gmail. com> wrote:
              >
              >  
              > >Did anyone on the list grab the Mikado Jim mentioned? I was watching it and
              > >intended to bid, but things are just too iffy in life right now so I held fire.
              > >At just over $200 it came in a little lower than I expected.
              > >
              > >Regards,
              > >Gareth
              > >
              > >
              > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Normally I wouldn't mention it but there are some really nice, good looking
              > >>Varney steam engines on Ebay.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> 170509057529 Varney 2-8-2 post war Super model with V-2 motor and sprung and
              > >>equalized drivers. Tender is the Varney non embossed Long Distance Brass tender.
              > >>
              > >> 170509055884 Varney 2-8-4 Berkshire later model with open frame motor and if my
              > >>eyes see right Box Pok drivers. Probably the economy model with rigid frame. Has
              > >>the non embossed Long Distance brass tender also.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Also I know some were interested in the Varney Brass streamlined body. Go to
              > >>330448260201 and you will find what looks like a nearly complete kit. I say
              > >>nearly because I do not see the 2 brass pieces for the skirting.
              > >>
              > >> No I have nothing to do with them and I won't be bidding as I have already.
              > >>Just thought they are nice Varney examples.
              > >>
              > >> Jim H
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Regards,
              > Walter
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14492 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              Hi Gareth, Since this is a brass import and has nothing to do with being
              made by any American manufacturer, including Red Ball (or Lindsay?), if I had
              to make this choice you're offering I'd have to say KMT although I really
              have no idea. As you probably know, most imported brass does not run well and
              never did. There were some exceptions though, such as some United models
              (imported by PFM), but even some of them could be quite noisy. If you're
              considering this model, it should primarily be for the fact that it's a Red
              Ball offering, if you value and/or collect that manufacturer, and not for its
              operational abilities -- otherwise, it might be best if left where it is --
              unless you just happen to like Baby Trainmasters. As for the custom paint
              job, while such painting is not done cheaply, unless it's of a scheme which
              you happen to like, its value might not necessarily fit in with your needs.
              Just some things to consider, Ray F.W..</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14493 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              By contrast.........

              Let's consider that a lot of China-made models over the last couple of
              decades suffer from inferior gears that are well known to fail over
              time, with no possible replacements for many of the models.

              In general, all import brass models have metal or matured plastic
              replacement gearing available from a number of USA providers. You can
              get replacement gearing for -some- China-made models, and replacements
              and improvement gearing for almost all brass imports.

              It will take one to two hours of a bit of shopping and mostly running
              in to get even an older brass model into very nice operating
              condition. [Don't overlooking refreshing or treating the electrical
              contact surfaces.] Doing so will make one run like a recent KATO. Aged
              and neglected electrical path components are the main reason for most
              brass models running problems.

              The general rule of any RR model is that you can't just run it out of
              the box for long without attention. Once you give it proper attention
              it will run like a properly tuned machine.

              That Baby will have old lubes, no lube, and aged electrical contact
              surfaces. Which means 15-30 minutes of shop-bench time. Lubed
              properly, electrical contacts refreshed [cleaned and conditioned], run
              in the gearing for a hour or so assuming their has been no real
              operation of the model, touch up the lubing, and you will be amazed at
              how well it does run for the next 6-12 months. When you will repeat
              the shopping.

              If a KMT drive, NWSL has the improved gearing to replace any that has
              aged poorly over the years.

              Feel confidant about giving that Baby a good home.

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              On Jul 12, 2010, at 12:47 PM, erieberk@... wrote:

              > Hi Gareth, Since this is a brass import and has nothing to do with
              > being
              > made by any American manufacturer, including Red Ball (or Lindsay?),
              > if I had
              > to make this choice you're offering I'd have to say KMT although I
              > really
              > have no idea. As you probably know, most imported brass does not
              > run well and
              > never did. There were some exceptions though, such as some United
              > models
              > (imported by PFM), but even some of them could be quite noisy. If
              > you're
              > considering this model, it should primarily be for the fact that
              > it's a Red
              > Ball offering, if you value and/or collect that manufacturer, and
              > not for its
              > operational abilities -- otherwise, it might be best if left where
              > it is --
              > unless you just happen to like Baby Trainmasters. As for the custom
              > paint
              > job, while such painting is not done cheaply, unless it's of a
              > scheme which
              > you happen to like, its value might not necessarily fit in with your
              > needs.
              > Just some things to consider, Ray F.W..
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14494 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <erieberk@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 12:47 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.


              > Hi Gareth, Since this is a brass import and has nothing to do with being
              > made by any American manufacturer, including Red Ball (or Lindsay?), if I
              > had
              > to make this choice you're offering I'd have to say KMT although I really
              > have no idea. As you probably know, most imported brass does not run well
              > and
              > never did. There were some exceptions though, such as some United models
              > (imported by PFM), but even some of them could be quite noisy. If you're
              > considering this model, it should primarily be for the fact that it's a
              > Red
              > Ball offering, if you value and/or collect that manufacturer, and not for
              > its
              > operational abilities -- otherwise, it might be best if left where it
              > s --
              > unless you just happen to like Baby Trainmasters. As for the custom paint
              > job, while such painting is not done cheaply, unless it's of a scheme
              > which
              > you happen to like, its value might not necessarily fit in with your
              > needs.
              > Just some things to consider, Ray F.W..</HTML>

              For most brass, unless it's factory paint, the paint usually DECREASES the
              value.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14495 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              I have to agree, in most cases. However, being a avid New Haven collector, if the scheme is painted well, it is not uncommon for this to increase the final price. I have been known to have to pay ~$60 - $70 for a custom painted Athearn PA1 before they were offered in factory NH paint. If it is a less than a perfect job, it will hurt the value. 
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 3:14:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.

               


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <erieberk@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 12:47 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.

              > Hi Gareth, Since this is a brass import and has nothing to do with being
              > made by any American manufacturer, including Red Ball (or Lindsay?), if I
              > had
              > to make this choice you're offering I'd have to say KMT although I really
              > have no idea. As you probably know, most imported brass does not run well
              > and
              > never did. There were some exceptions though, such as some United models
              > (imported by PFM), but even some of them could be quite noisy. If you're
              > considering this model, it should primarily be for the fact that it's a
              > Red
              > Ball offering, if you value and/or collect that manufacturer, and not for
              > its
              > operational abilities -- otherwise, it might be best if left where it
              > s --
              > unless you just happen to like Baby Trainmasters. As for the custom paint
              > job, while such painting is not done cheaply, unless it's of a scheme
              > which
              > you happen to like, its value might not necessarily fit in with your
              > needs.
              > Just some things to consider, Ray F.W..</HTML>

              For most brass, unless it's factory paint, the paint usually DECREASES the
              value.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14496 From: the_plainsman Date: 7/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              Hi Gareth,

              I agree that the manufacturer is probably KMT as well and think I read that in one of the eBay sales descriptions over the years. Last night, I checked the original Howell Day ads and the Model Ralroader Trade Topics Reviews for both your new model and the big Tranmaster as well and both do not mention the maker.

              Years ago when I purchased a Halmark Alco HH-1000 switcher, I purchsed a set of replacement NWSL gears as insurance and have not had to use them. If your gears are still good, it might still be a worthwhile insurance as many of these 1970's-1980's HO brass diesels inported by Howell Day under the Red Ball label, many other models by Hallmark and Alco were manufactured by KMT and sooner or later you might have the need and who knows how long NWSL will offer them.

              Although the two locomotives manufactured by Red Ball's M. Dale Newton in 1947 and 1951 were configured to accept Lindasy drives, by the time Howell Day was importing his interesting models, Lindsay was gone from the scene for all practical purposes for 15-20 years, though parts and units could be purchased from Kemtron.

              Those Howell Day imported locomoties would make a nice collection as he picked mostly Fairbanks Morse and some Baldwin prototypes not imported by others. On the steam side of the enginhouse, his CNJ camelback and tiny 0-4-4-0 articulated logging mallets in HO and HOn3 still bring strong prices from modelers and collectors, as do the inspection locomotives. I've been outbid on those many times, LOL!

              Lastly, the Howell Day/Red Ball small brass railbus and mail truck with or without trailer both remain popular as well, both powered by a slot-car type motor. The Brown Book of Brass Locomotives has comprehensive listings of all of Howell Day's imported brass listed, including quantities made. The complete Red Ball Catalog # 11 at HO Seeker has liiustrations and a description of the Howell Day era brass imports.

              W. Jay W.





              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have to agree, in most cases. However, being a avid New Haven collector, if
              > the scheme is painted well, it is not uncommon for this to increase the final
              > price. I have been known to have to pay ~$60 - $70 for a custom painted Athearn
              > PA1 before they were offered in factory NH paint. If it is a less than a perfect
              > job, it will hurt the value. 
              >
              > Sean
              > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14497 From: Denny Anspach Date: 7/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              To my knowledge, all the Red Ball brass imports were fabricated by KMT. I have most of these locomotives, but not this particular model, however.

              The body shells are very well made, and dimensionally accurate. The common KMT drive was/is a centered open frame three or five pole motor driving two open spur gear (brass) towers. Like all KMT drives, the noise produced by the open gear towers is horrendous, and for those for whom silence is golden, or for whom DCC sound installs are important, these models tend to remain shelf or drawer queens. Also, the gear ratios do not provide good low speed performance, and no amount of gear replacement will lesson the noise, nor improve the speed.

              I should add that all high quality replacement motor, drive, gear, and bearing components are available from NWSL (about @$100 for a full replacement for one locomotive!). Even after that expenditure, however, when finding that there is indeed not a scintilla of improvement, the modeler is left wondering where his money went (:-(.

              I have a number of other KMT models that will be undergoing upgrades for current operation with replacement drives from Ajin, and Hollywood Foundry. The original drives will be bagged and tagged to stay intact- ready to be reinstalled- with the models for the benefit of the next owners.

              Denny





              Even though each and every one of these parts can be replaced by very high quality NWSL parts, the

              However, no amount of motor, gear, drive line, or bearing replacements can make up for the inherently noisy open gear train,
              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Sacramento
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14498 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 7/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              The one I have has a KMT drive.

              --- On Mon, 7/12/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

              From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball H-16-44 on ebay.
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 5:10 AM

              Anyone else seen this Red Ball H-16-44 unit up for auction on Ebay?

              http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200493706780&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI

              Can't seem to find much info on it. Nothing on Ho-Seeker.

              The reserve on the auction is $175. Is that realistic?

              Thanks,
              Gareth





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                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14499 From: Ralph in SYR Date: 7/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Heavy-duty flats (was GMC?)
              excellent reporting sire !!! - rm paying attention in syracuse

              On 7/11/2010 9:17 AM, RalphB wrote:
               

              While Athearn's 8-axle flat is a riveted design, the D&H (my employer for 27 years) had 4 very similar all-welded cars, numbers 16153-16156. They were used primarily to transport electric generators produced at GE's Schenectady (NY) plant. Since the plant was served by both D&H and New York Central (later PC, Conrail), it was not unusual to see these cars going out on either line.

              One of the primary routes for these cars was the short trip from the GE plant to the Port of Albany for furtherance via special heavy-lift ships to destinations around the world. In fact, they're still making these moves, with newer TTX and Kasgro Rail cars, on the D&H (d/b/a Canadian Pacific). Another thing hasn't changed; these cars are always accompanied by spacer cars - frequently plain flat cars, but can be anything that meets weight limits (used to be 50,000 lbs max, but is now around 60,000 lbs or a bit higher). Trains can be as simple as a single load with 2 spacers up to five or six cars with the appropriate number of spacers.

              Ralph B

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Glenn wrote:
              >
              > Another car I would put in this category is the 4-truck, 200-ton flatcar
              > that was made both by Roundhouse and Athearn. The Athearn car usually came
              > with a load of 3 orange pipes which probably would have weighed less than 20
              > tons. Some typical loads could be discussed. Is this an idea? Can anyone
              > expand on this list?
              >
              > gj



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14500 From: driven280 Date: 7/14/2010
              Subject: Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
              Esteemed Members,
              Seeking some info on a recently acquired Hi-F drive chassis. Looks like an Athearn unit for the most part but has some differences I have not seen before. The drive shaft supports are separate pieces rather than part of the frame casting and the wheels are brass. The motor is mounted with two screws rather than one and the trucks attach with screws into the previously mentioned shaft supports. There is no manufacturers name present anywhere which I find unusual. If it's an Athearn frame is it older than the one usually seen or is it from a different maker? I have three views for interested folks to look at in the album Jim's Old Stuff and would appreciate any opinions and comments.

              Best regards,

              Jim McClenin
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14501 From: Wobbly913 Date: 7/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
              Jim
              I believe that they were made by Athearn. It is basically the same setup and motor, just a slightly different casting.I have several of those style of Hi F frame. I believe that they are probably  the earliest production made. If  you have the trucks for those frames they are also different. Instead of the overlapping side frames they have a fiber connector between the side frames and both sides are wired to the motor individually. For what it is worth the earlier single piece frames also had screws that held the trucks to the frame instead of the cast nub with the rubber grommet to hold the trucks in place.

              Wobbly913

              --- On Wed, 7/14/10, driven280 <mugger47@...> wrote:

              From: driven280 <mugger47@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 8:58 PM

              Esteemed Members,
              Seeking some info on a recently acquired Hi-F drive chassis. Looks like an Athearn unit for the most part but has some differences I have not seen before. The drive shaft supports are separate pieces rather than part of the frame casting and the wheels are brass. The motor is mounted with two screws rather than one and the trucks attach with screws into the previously mentioned shaft supports. There is no manufacturers name present anywhere which I find unusual. If it's an Athearn frame is it older than the one usually seen or is it from a different maker? I have three views for interested folks to look at in the album Jim's Old Stuff and would appreciate any opinions and comments.

              Best regards,

              Jim McClenin



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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14502 From: Dale Hokanson Date: 7/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
              I have a box of "frames" that has been with me forever (hurts that my models
              and parts are now "vintage") and sure enough there are are both types. Also
              two types of supports for the drive shafts, one with a hole the shaft is
              threaded through and the other with a notch the drive shaft is cradled in.

              Lawrence D. (Dale) Hokanson
              dale.hokanson@...



              ____________________________________________________________________
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14503 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
              I have a couple of these frames, but the bodies that came with them, were Globe. If I understand correctly, Globe used separate numberboards on their F7 shells, Athearns were cast in, and that is what I base the Globe statement on.

              I tend to think they could be early production Athearn, though, and someone switched bodies, or Athearn was using up Globe bodies on their frames.

              I converted a couple of these frames to dummies, as with the screw-on trucks, they did not need bands to hold the trucks to the frame as other Hi-F drives did.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Wed, 7/14/10, driven280 <mugger47@...> wrote:

              From: driven280 <mugger47@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 10:58 PM

               

              Esteemed Members,
              Seeking some info on a recently acquired Hi-F drive chassis. Looks like an Athearn unit for the most part but has some differences I have not seen before. The drive shaft supports are separate pieces rather than part of the frame casting and the wheels are brass. The motor is mounted with two screws rather than one and the trucks attach with screws into the previously mentioned shaft supports. There is no manufacturers name present anywhere which I find unusual. If it's an Athearn frame is it older than the one usually seen or is it from a different maker? I have three views for interested folks to look at in the album Jim's Old Stuff and would appreciate any opinions and comments.

              Best regards,

              Jim McClenin

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14504 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 7/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Hi-F Drive Chassis ID
              I have an early Athearn F7, in an Athearn box that has the globe body, which has the separate number boards and the three piece horns, instead of the one piece horns of Athearn fame.  I would have to take it out of my display case to see what the chassis looked like.
               
              Brad Smith
              Franklin, WI
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14505 From: jim heckard Date: 7/15/2010
              Subject: First Athearn Globe Drive
                      FWIW. The pictures are one of my engines containing the first gear drive produced by Athearn and put in the Globe body ( which has been described as you added the number boards and the 3 piece horns.  The shell pictured is Globe but wrong horns.)  and sold in Globe boxes. It was also when the first multi color ( Santa Fe and Union Pacific ) painted bodies were sold by Athearn. This was probably the best gear drive Ahearn ever produced. He had two similar drives following it with some changes, mainly materials,  before the Hi-F drive came out in 1957.
               
                  If you have Volume I of Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon  on Page 24 you can see the 3 different gear drives with  descriptions of the changes. ( However the picture of the 2nd gear drive produced is actually a Geep frame not an F unit ).
               
                 Also if you happen to have Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, Page 35 you will see a side view picture of the Hi-F Athearn drive that matches the side view sent in by Jim M ( driven280 ). I guess this was the first production Hi-F drive .
               
                  Finally if you look at my pictures of the first gear driven frame and the pictures of Jim Ms Hi-F frame you might see differences.
               
              Hope this helps a little.
               
                                                         Jim H
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14506 From: driven280 Date: 7/15/2010
              Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
              Thank you all for the great information. I also have one of the more common Hi-F chassis; the style I remember from my youth (wherever that went). I recall buying a Globe? F7 dummy kit from a local store when I was a kid. Undecorated; primed in a gold paint, I made a real mess of it trying to glue the number boards on the nose. This was before I learned you had to scrape the paint from a surface so the glue would hold. Things you don't know when you're 8 or 9 years old.
              Looking forward to learning more and contributing a little.
              Regards,
              Jim McClenin

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > FWIW. The pictures are one of my engines containing the first gear drive produced by Athearn and put in the Globe body ( which has been described as you added the number boards and the 3 piece horns. The shell pictured is Globe but wrong horns.) and sold in Globe boxes. It was also when the first multi color ( Santa Fe and Union Pacific ) painted bodies were sold by Athearn. This was probably the best gear drive Ahearn ever produced. He had two similar drives following it with some changes, mainly materials, before the Hi-F drive came out in 1957.
              >
              > If you have Volume I of Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon on Page 24 you can see the 3 different gear drives with descriptions of the changes. ( However the picture of the 2nd gear drive produced is actually a Geep frame not an F unit ).
              >
              > Also if you happen to have Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, Page 35 you will see a side view picture of the Hi-F Athearn drive that matches the side view sent in by Jim M ( driven280 ). I guess this was the first production Hi-F drive .
              >
              > Finally if you look at my pictures of the first gear driven frame and the pictures of Jim Ms Hi-F frame you might see differences.
              >
              > Hope this helps a little.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14507 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 7/15/2010
              Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
              Speaking of.....I have a set of trucks for one, and a motor (less one brush), was SUPPOSED to have the u-joints but the seller showed u-joints in his photo, then wanted $5 for the joints and $5 shipping, and I passed.

              BTAIM, I am looking for a Geep 7/9 chassis to put these trucks on, and motor in, and u-joints/driveshafts so I can complete one.
              Reason I want a Geep chassis is that I HAVE one already, would like a pair.

              From measurments, it seems later, smaller OD black u-joint assemblies should work.

              FOR TRADE:

              I have a blank-off plate, seems to be for one-end drive, to hold the truck in, and a couple of jackshafts, spur gear, worms, look real good.

              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14508 From: trolleynut Date: 7/15/2010
              Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
              I have, in Globe kit boxes, an AB set of dummy Union Pacific locos already "assembled". {I figure you could put a 50 cent weight, i.e., a roll of pennies, in each one so maybe they would stay on the track.} Die-cast dummy knuckle couplers, broke off horns, and some of the 'stirrups' are also missing.
              Also have, sans boxes, a Santa Fe ABA set of F7 shells.
              As I will probably not live long enough to ever use them {I'm only 66}, if any one can/will use them, contact me off-list.
              Extra points to any one repainting/relettering the UP set as the 'Onion Pacific'. :>))

              Jack Priller, aka "Ye Olde Trolleynut"
              Hobbs, NM

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > FWIW. The pictures are one of my engines containing the first gear drive produced by Athearn and put in the Globe body ( which has been described as you added the number boards and the 3 piece horns. The shell pictured is Globe but wrong horns.) and sold in Globe boxes. It was also when the first multi color ( Santa Fe and Union Pacific ) painted bodies were sold by Athearn. This was probably the best gear drive Ahearn ever produced. He had two similar drives following it with some changes, mainly materials, before the Hi-F drive came out in 1957.
              >
              > If you have Volume I of Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon on Page 24 you can see the 3 different gear drives with descriptions of the changes. ( However the picture of the 2nd gear drive produced is actually a Geep frame not an F unit ).
              >
              > Also if you happen to have Greenberg's Guide to Athearn Trains, Page 35 you will see a side view picture of the Hi-F Athearn drive that matches the side view sent in by Jim M ( driven280 ). I guess this was the first production Hi-F drive .
              >
              > Finally if you look at my pictures of the first gear driven frame and the pictures of Jim Ms Hi-F frame you might see differences.
              >
              > Hope this helps a little.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14509 From: jim heckard Date: 7/16/2010
              Subject: Repaired Athearn 0-6-0 Drives
               

                For Sale.
               
                 The pictures show a really good repair job on complete 1960 Athearn 0-6-0 ( that are usually found with the gear broke / split ) gear boxes that a friend of mine gave me. He has 10 that he repaired for sale.  If any interest contact me off line jimheck@... and I will pass a name and telephone number on to you. He uses no computer.
               
                I have known the man from being a member of the old HOSC&H-SIG group for over 25 years, he lives in Clio, CA and is an actual engineer for the UP. Some might know him by these clues. I don't want to post his name and number.
               
                                                                      Jim Heckard
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14510 From: Dale Hokanson Date: 7/16/2010
              Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
              With no rubber bands and the wires cut to the motors these make great dummies
              even though, on mine anyway, the trucks fall out when lifted. One thing I
              learned early on when I tried to use them as dummies, if only one truck drops
              out you had better insure you don't turn it 180 when you put it back in. I
              learned this the hard way after a couple of mind blowing dead shorts. BTW, if
              any one is needing Athearn drives and parts (from early Hi-F through the later
              blue boxes) let me know, I may well have it and at a reasonable price - no
              "vintage markup" :) I can send pics if you have anything specific. I DON'T
              have any of those beautiful early Athearn geared units.

              Dale in Spokane


              Lawrence D. (Dale) Hokanson
              dale.hokanson@...



              ____________________________________________________________________
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14511 From: Mike Sloane Date: 7/16/2010
              Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
              I found that stripping a 1/4" section of the insulation from old 4-wire
              telephone cable and placed it on the truck pivot worked perfectly to
              hold the trucks on those "dummies" created from old Hi-F units. I have
              half a dozen of those old A and B units parked in my roundhouse.

              <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/dummies-parked-in.html>

              Mike

              On 7/16/2010 12:25 PM, Dale Hokanson wrote:
              >
              >
              > With no rubber bands and the wires cut to the motors these make great
              > dummies
              > even though, on mine anyway, the trucks fall out when lifted. One thing I
              > learned early on when I tried to use them as dummies, if only one truck
              > drops
              > out you had better insure you don't turn it 180 when you put it back in. I
              > learned this the hard way after a couple of mind blowing dead shorts.
              > BTW, if
              > any one is needing Athearn drives and parts (from early Hi-F through the
              > later
              > blue boxes) let me know, I may well have it and at a reasonable price - no
              > "vintage markup" :) I can send pics if you have anything specific. I DON'T
              > have any of those beautiful early Athearn geared units.
              >
              > Dale in Spokane
              >
              > Lawrence D. (Dale) Hokanson
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14512 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/16/2010
              Subject: Re: First Athearn Globe Drive
              short pieces of tubing will keep those trucks from falling off. gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Dale Hokanson" <dale.hokanson@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:25 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: First Athearn Globe Drive


              > With no rubber bands and the wires cut to the motors these make great
              > dummies
              > even though, on mine anyway, the trucks fall out when lifted. One thing I
              > learned early on when I tried to use them as dummies, if only one truck
              > drops
              > out you had better insure you don't turn it 180 when you put it back in.
              > I
              > learned this the hard way after a couple of mind blowing dead shorts.
              > BTW, if
              > any one is needing Athearn drives and parts (from early Hi-F through the
              > later
              > blue boxes) let me know, I may well have it and at a reasonable price - no
              > "vintage markup" :) I can send pics if you have anything specific. I
              > DON'T
              > have any of those beautiful early Athearn geared units.
              >
              > Dale in Spokane
              >
              >
              > Lawrence D. (Dale) Hokanson
              > dale.hokanson@...
              >
              >
              >
              > ____________________________________________________________________
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14513 From: jim heckard Date: 7/16/2010
              Subject: Red Ball SW-1
              Attachments :
              W Jay W, Sean N, All,
               
               
                 Pictured is my latest project. Thanks to Sean N for finding the engine to start and especially for searching down the missing body side frame piece.
               
                 I cleaned off the old paint and everything is there even the little detail parts as far as I can see. The only "plan" I have is the picture from a Red Ball catalog.
               
                  I had intended to cut out the frame and install a Lindsay drive unit which was what mostly done but because everything is there including the two dummy trucks I might save time and effort by just making a dummy engine. In fact since it's only for my vintage collection and all there I am even thinking of just "laying it out " in a box leaving it unassembled and undecorated for show.
               
               
                                                                          Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14514 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1 [1 Attachment]
              Hi Jim,  Thanks for posting the photo of your kit parts.  I spotted something my assembled Red Ball SW-1 lacks - the original white metal fuel/air tank castings.  On mine, the builder had installed the lost wax Lindsay NW-2 tanks, then took them off as the fuel lines on each end may have fouled the trucks.  Without your photo and lacking the instructions, I would have not known what the original parts looked like.  W Jay W.   


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, July 16, 2010 7:16:29 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1 [1 Attachment]

               

              W Jay W, Sean N, All,
               
               
                 Pictured is my latest project. Thanks to Sean N for finding the engine to start and especially for searching down the missing body side frame piece.
               
                 I cleaned off the old paint and everything is there even the little detail parts as far as I can see. The only "plan" I have is the picture from a Red Ball catalog.
               
                  I had intended to cut out the frame and install a Lindsay drive unit which was what mostly done but because everything is there including the two dummy trucks I might save time and effort by just making a dummy engine. In fact since it's only for my vintage collection and all there I am even thinking of just "laying it out " in a box leaving it unassembled and undecorated for show.
               
               
                                                                          Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14515 From: jim heckard Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball SW-1
              
                   Jay,
               
                  Just a little side note on those fuel tank castings. The have in little raised letters on the bottom below where the air tank goes the words  Fuel Oil  600 Gals  cast on the piece.     Just kind of a unique.
               
                                                                            Jim
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:26 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1

               

              Hi Jim,  Thanks for posting the photo of your kit parts.  I spotted something my assembled Red Ball SW-1 lacks - the original white metal fuel/air tank castings.  On mine, the builder had installed the lost wax Lindsay NW-2 tanks, then took them off as the fuel lines on each end may have fouled the trucks.  Without your photo and lacking the instructions, I would have not known what the original parts looked like.  W Jay W.   


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Fri, July 16, 2010 7:16:29 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball SW-1 [1 Attachment]

               

              W Jay W, Sean N, All,
               
               
                 Pictured is my latest project. Thanks to Sean N for finding the engine to start and especially for searching down the missing body side frame piece.
               
                 I cleaned off the old paint and everything is there even the little detail parts as far as I can see. The only "plan" I have is the picture from a Red Ball catalog.
               
                  I had intended to cut out the frame and install a Lindsay drive unit which was what mostly done but because everything is there including the two dummy trucks I might save time and effort by just making a dummy engine. In fact since it's only for my vintage collection and all there I am even thinking of just "laying it out " in a box leaving it unassembled and undecorated for show.
               
               
                                                                          Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14516 From: jim heckard Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: I.D. wanted
                            I am looking for information on this interesting engine as to it's total I.D.  Go to item  130410062933   M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender.
               
                   First I know it's not a stock Mantua engine but from what I see it is Mantua parts modified into something I've never seen. Knowing it was a project is it a copy of a real engine ? Is the designation M5 a real number ?
               
                   I have no intention of buying but I find it real interesting and nicely done.
               
                                                                                    Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14517 From: George Frey Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              Jim it apently has been sold becaus when you click on that number it comes up with a fedex tracking number


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 3:13:45 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               

                            I am looking for information on this interesting engine as to it's total I.D.  Go to item  130410062933   M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender.
               
                   First I know it's not a stock Mantua engine but from what I see it is Mantua parts modified into something I've never seen. Knowing it was a project is it a copy of a real engine ? Is the designation M5 a real number ?
               
                   I have no intention of buying but I find it real interesting and nicely done.
               
                                                                                    Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14518 From: jim heckard Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              
                        I don't know why but when I put in the number just now again   130410062933  it still comes up for me. I did find out the number  *M5   is the sellers number after viewing the entire listing of items for sale but still an odd engine..
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
                                           
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 6:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               

              Jim it apently has been sold becaus when you click on that number it comes up with a fedex tracking number


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 3:13:45 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               

                            I am looking for information on this interesting engine as to it's total I.D.  Go to item  130410062933   M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender.
               
                   First I know it's not a stock Mantua engine but from what I see it is Mantua parts modified into something I've never seen. Knowing it was a project is it a copy of a real engine ? Is the designation M5 a real number ?
               
                   I have no intention of buying but I find it real interesting and nicely done.
               
                                                                                    Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14519 From: Riverboy Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              Hi George,
               
              The item is still available. You need to go to advanced search and copy and paste the auction number in the search box.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Sat, 7/17/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, July 17, 2010, 6:32 PM

               
              
                        I don't know why but when I put in the number just now again   130410062933  it still comes up for me. I did find out the number  *M5   is the sellers number after viewing the entire listing of items for sale but still an odd engine..
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
                                           
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 6:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               
              Jim it apently has been sold becaus when you click on that number it comes up with a fedex tracking number


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 3:13:45 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               
                            I am looking for information on this interesting engine as to it's total I.D.  Go to item  130410062933   M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender.
               
                   First I know it's not a stock Mantua engine but from what I see it is Mantua parts modified into something I've never seen. Knowing it was a project is it a copy of a real engine ? Is the designation M5 a real number ?
               
                   I have no intention of buying but I find it real interesting and nicely done.
               
                                                                                    Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14520 From: George Frey Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              ok


              From: Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 3:44:37 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               

              Hi George,
               
              The item is still available. You need to go to advanced search and copy and paste the auction number in the search box.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Sat, 7/17/10, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Saturday, July 17, 2010, 6:32 PM

               
              
                        I don't know why but when I put in the number just now again   130410062933  it still comes up for me. I did find out the number  *M5   is the sellers number after viewing the entire listing of items for sale but still an odd engine..
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
                                           
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 6:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               
              Jim it apently has been sold becaus when you click on that number it comes up with a fedex tracking number


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 3:13:45 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               
                            I am looking for information on this interesting engine as to it's total I.D.  Go to item  130410062933   M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender.
               
                   First I know it's not a stock Mantua engine but from what I see it is Mantua parts modified into something I've never seen. Knowing it was a project is it a copy of a real engine ? Is the designation M5 a real number ?
               
                   I have no intention of buying but I find it real interesting and nicely done.
               
                                                                                    Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14521 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              to quote Arte Johnson:" Verrrrry Interessting"
               
              This is probably the only one like it.  It could likely have been cobbled up from Mantua parts.  I wonder if it is actually articulated, or a Duplex (rigid frame) like the PRR T-1
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 3:13 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

                            I am looking for information on this interesting engine as to it's total I.D.  Go to item  130410062933   M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender.
               
                   First I know it's not a stock Mantua engine but from what I see it is Mantua parts modified into something I've never seen. Knowing it was a project is it a copy of a real engine ? Is the designation M5 a real number ?
               
                   I have no intention of buying but I find it real interesting and nicely done.
               
                                                                                    Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14522 From: George Frey Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              yea it dodse come up i clicked on the number in your email and the fedex thing came upbut when i put it into E-BAit dose come up.
              George


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 3:32:02 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               

              

                        I don't know why but when I put in the number just now again   130410062933  it still comes up for me. I did find out the number  *M5   is the sellers number after viewing the entire listing of items for sale but still an odd engine..
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
                                           
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 6:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               

              Jim it apently has been sold becaus when you click on that number it comes up with a fedex tracking number


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 3:13:45 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               

                            I am looking for information on this interesting engine as to it's total I.D.  Go to item  130410062933   M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender.
               
                   First I know it's not a stock Mantua engine but from what I see it is Mantua parts modified into something I've never seen. Knowing it was a project is it a copy of a real engine ? Is the designation M5 a real number ?
               
                   I have no intention of buying but I find it real interesting and nicely done.
               
                                                                                    Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14523 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              Interesting item to say the least. It looks like a lot of workmanship went
              into kitbashing this item -- certainly a one of a kind. I didn't need to
              do an advanced search, BTW -- it came right up with just entering the eBay
              number. Looks like it's up there as a Buy-It-Now @ $129 until August 12th
              (unless someone buys it). Appears as though there are (at least) two mantua
              cast boilers used (maybe 3?) and there no reason not to believe the
              mechanism(s) aren't Mantua either although it's difficult to really say for sure with
              just a glance.

              As far as I know, there is no prototype for it, but it comes closest to the
              PRR T-1 Duplex (4-4-4-4) even though the cylinders are in the wrong
              position The blow-ups of the photos shows it's a rigid frame (not articulated).
              Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14524 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              A close-up view of the underside shows the wheels are out of alignment, therefore, if it is not articulated, it would not sit on the rails.
               
              It took some work to make this, so I have no doubt it is articulated. However, I think the choice of splicing locations are the major problems with the piece for me. I would pull the trigger otherwise. The poor splicing has left the boiler with an elongated hour glass shape.
               
              I feel ad about this, but it is really a great piece otherwise. prototypical or not...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 7:13:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               

              Interesting item to say the least. It looks like a lot of workmanship went
              into kitbashing this item -- certainly a one of a kind. I didn't need to
              do an advanced search, BTW -- it came right up with just entering the eBay
              number. Looks like it's up there as a Buy-It-Now @ $129 until August 12th
              (unless someone buys it). Appears as though there are (at least) two mantua
              cast boilers used (maybe 3?) and there no reason not to believe the
              mechanism(s) aren't Mantua either although it's difficult to really say for sure with
              just a glance.

              As far as I know, there is no prototype for it, but it comes closest to the
              PRR T-1 Duplex (4-4-4-4) even though the cylinders are in the wrong
              position The blow-ups of the photos shows it's a rigid frame (not articulated).
              Ray F.W.</HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14525 From: John Hagen Date: 7/17/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              Attachments :

              This is two Mantua Pacific’s. The boiler was made by splicing the boilers and the mechanisms (engines) are standard Pacific with the rear driver set lopped off.

               

              The front engine appears to pivot at the bright screw at the rear of the front driver (see red circle in the attachment). I don’t know how this thing can stay on the rails past a certain radius. In the photo the rear drivers of the front engine are way outside of the tracking range of the rear engine.  I also do not think the front engine is powered. I would love to see a photo of the mechanisms with the boiler off.

               

              Speaking of the boiler, the guy should have used Mikado boilers for this. Then the boiler would be straight, as are most articulateds (I said most, not all. I’m sure there a few odd-balls with tapered boilers). I agree that the coke bottle shape boiler does tend to destroy any thought that it could have a prototype somewhere.

               

              Tender is standard Mantua long haul.

               

              John Hagen

               

              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor
              Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 20:53
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               

               

              A close-up view of the underside shows the wheels are out of alignment, therefore, if it is not articulated, it would not sit on the rails.

               

              It took some work to make this, so I have no doubt it is articulated. However, I think the choice of splicing locations are the major problems with the piece for me. I would pull the trigger otherwise. The poor splicing has left the boiler with an elongated hour glass shape.

               

              I feel ad about this, but it is really a great piece otherwise. prototypical or not...

               

              Sean
               

              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!

               

               


              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 7:13:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted

               

              Interesting item to say the least. It looks like a lot of workmanship went
              into kitbashing this item -- certainly a one of a kind. I didn't need to
              do an advanced search, BTW -- it came right up with just entering the eBay
              number. Looks like it's up there as a Buy-It-Now @ $129 until August 12th
              (unless someone buys it). Appears as though there are (at least) two mantua
              cast boilers used (maybe 3?) and there no reason not to believe the
              mechanism(s) aren't Mantua either although it's difficult to really say for sure with
              just a glance.

              As far as I know, there is no prototype for it, but it comes closest to the
              PRR T-1 Duplex (4-4-4-4) even though the cylinders are in the wrong
              position The blow-ups of the photos shows it's a rigid frame (not articulated).
              Ray F.W.</HTML>

               

                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14526 From: erieberk Date: 7/18/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              Sean, It was only after viewing the underside, more than once, that I came to the conclusion that this is a rigid frame model; my finding was not done lightly nor it haste. When I first looked at the underside, I too thought that it might have been an articulated, but upon closer inspection I see it as being rigid and not being able to swivel. The lighting on the very reflective driver tire surfaces is extremely deceiving, and this factor is not noticed at first. With the lighting coming down from the overhead left of the viewer, it very much makes the wheels appear out of alignment, as you suggest -- but when I take a closer look at the drivers and I discount this effect/illusion that the lighting is causing on the drivers, I see them as all aligned. I see what caused you to come to your conclusion, but this is the way I view it.

              Noticing too, the side view of the engine has space between the both engines (mechanisms) and the boiler, from the front of the first engine's front drivers to the rear of the second engine's rear drivers -- with no support where the first and second engine join. There is nothing holding the cylinders of the rear engine to the boiler, and if the front (the cylinders) of the front engine were free to pivot (I see those cylinders as being attached to the boiler), there would be nothing to prevent the rear engine from having the ability to swivel too since it is nothing to prevent that (with its cylinders not fastened to the boiler, except perhaps for how tightly the rear engine is bolted under the cab.

              Yes, The tapered shape of the Pacific boilers leaves this engine with an hour glass shape when joined improperly. It almost looks as though a portion of a second boiler was joined the the rear-most one in a reversed position -- from the sand dome, back -- and then perhaps a portion of a third boiler spliced to this middle section, in the correct position (facing front) as the forward-most part of the boiler. In any case, the work in aligning the boiler sections, regardless of the pieces that went into it, was well done as everything appears straight. Too bad about the poor choice of Mantua Pacific boilers to be used for splicing.

              This same problem confronted me when I first had the idea of making a Reading T-1 Northern from two Mantua formed brass Consolidation boilers, just as the prototype Reading Company actually did. After looking over where I might do the splicing, I quickly gave up as I was at a loss as to how to make a splice that would look like one continuous boiler with even lines from smokebox front to cab. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > A close-up view of the underside shows the wheels are out of alignment,
              > therefore, if it is not articulated, it would not sit on the rails.
              >
              > It took some work to make this, so I have no doubt it is articulated. However, I
              > think the choice of splicing locations are the major problems with the piece for
              > me. I would pull the trigger otherwise. The poor splicing has left the boiler
              > with an elongated hour glass shape.
              >
              >
              > I feel ad about this, but it is really a great piece otherwise. prototypical or
              > not...
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 7:13:17 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted
              >
              >  
              > Interesting item to say the least. It looks like a lot of workmanship went
              > into kitbashing this item -- certainly a one of a kind. I didn't need to
              > do an advanced search, BTW -- it came right up with just entering the eBay
              > number. Looks like it's up there as a Buy-It-Now @ $129 until August 12th
              > (unless someone buys it). Appears as though there are (at least) two mantua
              > cast boilers used (maybe 3?) and there no reason not to believe the
              > mechanism(s) aren't Mantua either although it's difficult to really say for sure
              > with
              >
              > just a glance.
              >
              > As far as I know, there is no prototype for it, but it comes closest to the
              > PRR T-1 Duplex (4-4-4-4) even though the cylinders are in the wrong
              > position The blow-ups of the photos shows it's a rigid frame (not articulated).
              > Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14527 From: erieberk Date: 7/18/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              Hi John, I opened your attachment, even maximixed it, and still I can see no red circle such as you describe. The photo is sharp and clear though. I did notice, the only bright screw in the front engine (front mechanism) that I can see is the one just to the rear of the front drivers -- and by this, I mean the very front set of drivers of the front mechanism, not the rear set of drivers of the front mechanism.

              If this is how you're describing it, we are in tune with each other, but having an articulated mechanism swivel at its centerpoint between its driver sets rather than pivot behind its rear-most set of drivers is very unconventional and certainly not at all prototypical -- nor not even in the manner that Bowser, Varney or Winton did since they followed the prototype's design. Actually, if the front mechanism were pivoting at its centerpoint, between its front and rear driver sets, as soon as it started to swivel its rear set of drivers would be outside of the gauge and would tend to pull the front set of drivers of the rear mechanism outside of the gauge too since they could not otherwise line up (track each other). This engine could not remain on the rails if it entered any curve -- if a pivot were where you indicated.

              Getting back to one of the side views of this model -- just as I mentioned in my previous post, nothing but space can be seen under the boiler from the front cylinders (of the front mechanism) to the cab with nothing supporting either mechanisms anywhere in between these points, nor any place shown to secure a pivot to if one where intended at the location you descibe (the bright screw). If that bright screw goes through the front mechanism, that side view doesn't show it as being mounted to the boiler to provide an anchorage point for swiveling.

              I don't see any motor for the front mechanism, nor do I see any drive connection between the front mechanism and the rear mechanism to allow all drivers to be powered. It must only have its rear mechanism powered. Agreed also with the choice of boilers. When I stated the splicing of them resulted in their being "straight," this was meant only as them being aligned properly without them being spliced together crookedly -- or mis-aligned. The profile of these boilers is certainly not straight though when they resemble a coke bottle. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > This is two Mantua Pacific’s. The boiler was made by splicing the boilers and the mechanisms (engines) are standard Pacific with the rear driver set lopped off.
              >
              >
              >
              > The front engine appears to pivot at the bright screw at the rear of the front driver (see red circle in the attachment). I don’t know how this thing can stay on the rails past a certain radius. In the photo the rear drivers of the front engine are way outside of the tracking range of the rear engine. I also do not think the front engine is powered. I would love to see a photo of the mechanisms with the boiler off.
              >
              >
              >
              > Speaking of the boiler, the guy should have used Mikado boilers for this. Then the boiler would be straight, as are most articulateds (I said most, not all. I’m sure there a few odd-balls with tapered boilers). I agree that the coke bottle shape boiler does tend to destroy any thought that it could have a prototype somewhere.
              >
              >
              >
              > Tender is standard Mantua long haul.
              >
              >
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              >
              >
              > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor
              > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 20:53
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > A close-up view of the underside shows the wheels are out of alignment, therefore, if it is not articulated, it would not sit on the rails.
              >
              >
              >
              > It took some work to make this, so I have no doubt it is articulated. However, I think the choice of splicing locations are the major problems with the piece for me. I would pull the trigger otherwise. The poor splicing has left the boiler with an elongated hour glass shape.
              >
              >
              >
              > I feel ad about this, but it is really a great piece otherwise. prototypical or not...
              >
              >
              >
              > Sean
              >
              >
              > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 7:13:17 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted
              >
              >
              >
              > Interesting item to say the least. It looks like a lot of workmanship went
              > into kitbashing this item -- certainly a one of a kind. I didn't need to
              > do an advanced search, BTW -- it came right up with just entering the eBay
              > number. Looks like it's up there as a Buy-It-Now @ $129 until August 12th
              > (unless someone buys it). Appears as though there are (at least) two mantua
              > cast boilers used (maybe 3?) and there no reason not to believe the
              > mechanism(s) aren't Mantua either although it's difficult to really say for sure with
              > just a glance.
              >
              > As far as I know, there is no prototype for it, but it comes closest to the
              > PRR T-1 Duplex (4-4-4-4) even though the cylinders are in the wrong
              > position The blow-ups of the photos shows it's a rigid frame (not articulated).
              > Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14528 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/18/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              Has anyone thought of asking the seller for an additional picture of just the lead  (front) engine drivers, or maybe a better description as to how they are mounted. It just seems to me to be alot easier to set it up simular to that of the Bowser articulateds with the lead driver coupled to the rear via a rod, rather than try to pivot the lead drivers off of the boiler in any way. (or even make it a solid frame for that matter)
               
              If not...I think it would be a worthwhile question to ask...
               
              I must fully agree about the Mikado boiler use.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, July 18, 2010 3:52:34 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: I.D. wanted

               



              Hi John, I opened your attachment, even maximixed it, and still I can see no red circle such as you describe. The photo is sharp and clear though. I did notice, the only bright screw in the front engine (front mechanism) that I can see is the one just to the rear of the front drivers -- and by this, I mean the very front set of drivers of the front mechanism, not the rear set of drivers of the front mechanism.

              If this is how you're describing it, we are in tune with each other, but having an articulated mechanism swivel at its centerpoint between its driver sets rather than pivot behind its rear-most set of drivers is very unconventional and certainly not at all prototypical -- nor not even in the manner that Bowser, Varney or Winton did since they followed the prototype's design. Actually, if the front mechanism were pivoting at its centerpoint, between its front and rear driver sets, as soon as it started to swivel its rear set of drivers would be outside of the gauge and would tend to pull the front set of drivers of the rear mechanism outside of the gauge too since they could not otherwise line up (track each other). This engine could not remain on the rails if it entered any curve -- if a pivot were where you indicated.

              Getting back to one of the side views of this model -- just as I mentioned in my previous post, nothing but space can be seen under the boiler from the front cylinders (of the front mechanism) to the cab with nothing supporting either mechanisms anywhere in between these points, nor any place shown to secure a pivot to if one where intended at the location you descibe (the bright screw). If that bright screw goes through the front mechanism, that side view doesn't show it as being mounted to the boiler to provide an anchorage point for swiveling.

              I don't see any motor for the front mechanism, nor do I see any drive connection between the front mechanism and the rear mechanism to allow all drivers to be powered. It must only have its rear mechanism powered. Agreed also with the choice of boilers. When I stated the splicing of them resulted in their being "straight," this was meant only as them being aligned properly without them being spliced together crookedly -- or mis-aligned. The profile of these boilers is certainly not straight though when they resemble a coke bottle. Ray F.W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > This is two Mantua Pacific’s. The boiler was made by splicing the boilers and the mechanisms (engines) are standard Pacific with the rear driver set lopped off.
              >
              >
              >
              > The front engine appears to pivot at the bright screw at the rear of the front driver (see red circle in the attachment). I don’t know how this thing can stay on the rails past a certain radius. In the photo the rear drivers of the front engine are way outside of the tracking range of the rear engine. I also do not think the front engine is powered. I would love to see a photo of the mechanisms with the boiler off.
              >
              >
              >
              > Speaking of the boiler, the guy should have used Mikado boilers for this. Then the boiler would be straight, as are most articulateds (I said most, not all. I’m sure there a few odd-balls with tapered boilers). I agree that the coke bottle shape boiler does tend to destroy any thought that it could have a prototype somewhere.
              >
              >
              >
              > Tender is standard Mantua long haul.
              >
              >
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              >
              >
              > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor
              > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 20:53
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > A close-up view of the underside shows the wheels are out of alignment, therefore, if it is not articulated, it would not sit on the rails.
              >
              >
              >
              > It took some work to make this, so I have no doubt it is articulated. However, I think the choice of splicing locations are the major problems with the piece for me. I would pull the trigger otherwise. The poor splicing has left the boiler with an elongated hour glass shape.
              >
              >
              >
              > I feel ad about this, but it is really a great piece otherwise. prototypical or not...
              >
              >
              >
              > Sean
              >
              >
              > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 7:13:17 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D. wanted
              >
              >
              >
              > Interesting item to say the least. It looks like a lot of workmanship went
              > into kitbashing this item -- certainly a one of a kind. I didn't need to
              > do an advanced search, BTW -- it came right up with just entering the eBay
              > number. Looks like it's up there as a Buy-It-Now @ $129 until August 12th
              > (unless someone buys it). Appears as though there are (at least) two mantua
              > cast boilers used (maybe 3?) and there no reason not to believe the
              > mechanism(s) aren't Mantua either although it's difficult to really say for sure with
              > just a glance.
              >
              > As far as I know, there is no prototype for it, but it comes closest to the
              > PRR T-1 Duplex (4-4-4-4) even though the cylinders are in the wrong
              > position The blow-ups of the photos shows it's a rigid frame (not articulated).
              > Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14529 From: Nelson B Date: 7/18/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. wanted
              John,

              I agree that the front drivers and pilot are angled in the photo, and the pivot point is the large screw with a washer under it. If the rear driver set is rigid to the frame, this wouldn't help it negotiate a curve at all, since both driver sets would have to pivot like diesel trucks for it to work.

              With only the rear set of drivers powered, I wonder if this thing can even get out of its own way. I have a Mantua Atlantic that's no powerhouse, and it doesn't have all of that dead weight and extra drivers to push.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > This is two Mantua Pacific’s. The boiler was made by splicing the boilers and the mechanisms (engines) are standard Pacific with the rear driver set lopped off.
              >
              >
              >
              > The front engine appears to pivot at the bright screw at the rear of the front driver (see red circle in the attachment). I don't know how this thing can stay on the rails past a certain radius. In the photo the rear drivers of the front engine are way outside of the tracking range of the rear engine. I also do not think the front engine is powered. I would love to see a photo of the mechanisms with the boiler off.
              >
              >
              >
              > Speaking of the boiler, the guy should have used Mikado boilers for this. Then the boiler would be straight, as are most articulateds (I said most, not all. I'm sure there a few odd-balls with tapered boilers). I agree that the coke bottle shape boiler does tend to destroy any thought that it could have a prototype somewhere.
              >
              >
              >
              > Tender is standard Mantua long haul.
              >
              >
              >
              > John Hagen
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14530 From: jim heckard Date: 7/18/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
                      Since I'm the guy who asked about the odd engine on Ebay I am going to propose what I see for your consideration. I enlarged the Ebay pictures to 150 % and am only going to use two pictures to describe what I see.  The side view picture that you can see between the boiler and drivers ( 2nd picture ) and the picture of the bottom of the engine that has been cited as reference.
               
                  I totally agree on the Mantua parts being used. This is just about how the two sets of drivers are attached and "working".
               
                 Backset first. I believe they are solidly attached to the boiler. Both at the back end by the trailing truck and at the front end . Look at the side view picture where you can see through the boiler right behind the steam chest, above the front end of the valve gear you can see a black "line" that I believe is the screw coming through the front of the frame attaching to the boiler. Looking real hard and following that line to the bottom of the frame you can ever so slightly make out the head of that screw making that back set of drivers rigidly mounted front and back. And yes this set of drivers is powered
               
                On to the front set of drivers. They are not powered but again using the two pictures I cited I am in agreement that bright screw head is a pivot point. Looking at the side view between the two sets of front drivers but just ever so slightly behind the first set you can see a wide silver piece that is were this screw comes  through from the bottom to attach to the boiler above and pivots but not solid or rigid.  But I believe I see that this entire front set of drivers with its frame, pilot , lead truck are all connected together as one piece and pivot under the front of the boiler at that point. (You can see the ladders are not attaced to the boiler)  I think the back end of this whole connected frame just swings free in between the front of the back steam chest. No connection between front and back frames / drivers.
               
                  I hope what I am trying to say is understood. If what I say is how this is set up there is a lot of front end boiler overhang like other HO articulated engines just this pivot point is in between the front set of drivers but that pivot point also allows the front set of drivers support when picked up. As to what radius it can take who knows ?????
               
                  Actually if I am right it is "similar" in design as to how I created a pivot point under  my Winton Allegheny boiler to create a place to hang  the front set of drivers on it allowing movement but also support when picked up.   
               
                                                                              Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14531 From: erieberk Date: 7/18/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
              Okay Jim, I'll go along with that, if I'm understanding you correctly. I only hit "Maximize" to show it slightly enlarged from the way it showed it as a full page. Your 150% would have shown you much more -- at least more than I thought I saw. We'll assume that the back set (2 pairs) of drivers is rigedly mounted so that it can't swivel.

              Now, I'd like to concentrate on the front set of drivers (again, 2 pairs, of course). By your post, I note that you are in the same opinion as John in saying that the bright screw head is the pivot point for the front set of drivers. Unless there is more than one bright screw in this front mechanism (and PLEASE point any others out if I missed it), the only bright screw that I see is the one directly behind the first pair of drivers in this set of two pairs. In other words, this front set (two pairs) of drivers -- or, this front mechanism -- is pivoting a point between its front and rear pairs of drivers and not at the rear of the second driver set as is the method every other articulated is designed.

              Let's draw a centerline down the length of this boiler from the smokebox front (not the pilot, which is swiveling) to the back of the cab, as you look down on it. Now, picture this engine going into a curve. From what you guys have written, it appears to me that you're saying that this front mechanism will pivot in such a way that the front pair of drivers will pivot inward of the boiler's imaginary centerline and into the curve -- as any normal articulated will do. BUT, at this same time, the rear pair of drivers will pivot OUTWARD of the boiler's centerline -- and out of line with the sets of drivers of the rear mechanism which are centered dead on to the boiler's centerline. Either the weight of the engine holding the rear mechanism down between the gauge will derail the front mechanism due to this (front) mechanism's inclination to now swivel it's rear set of drivers out from the track gauge, OR if this same (rear set if drivers of the front mechanism) driver set somehow tends to remain in the track gauge it will force the lead pair of drivers of the rear mechanism out of the gauge (derail) towards the inside of the curve, since that pivoting from mechanism has it's rear drivers turned.

              This set up is just about completely unworkable as the only way that the rear mechanism's drivers can follow in the same gauge as the driver set immediately in front of it (the second driver set of the front mechanism) is for them all (except for any driver sets forward of the rear driver set in the front mechanism) to be in line with each other, just as how any of the models of them (and the prototypes) are set up. The drivers in the rear mechanism must always be in line with the rear driver set of the front mechanism that's leading them into the curve.

              Since the rear driver set in this engine's front mechanism pivots well beyond (to the side of) the rear mechanism's drivers to directly follow it (without being pulled out of the gauge) there will always be a derailment of either the front or the rear mechanism, as both mechanism's adjacent driver sets will always be opposed to each other to stay within the gauge on curves. The only way that such an engine may be able to negotiate curves is perhaps for either having the radius so slight (like about a 96" radius) that the pivoting action is kept at an absolute minimum, or, if there is sufficient side-slack in the driver sets to allow for them to be pulled back into the gauge (by the rails) at the same time that they're being pivoted out of the gauge. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Since I'm the guy who asked about the odd engine on Ebay I am going to propose what I see for your consideration. I enlarged the Ebay pictures to 150 % and am only going to use two pictures to describe what I see. The side view picture that you can see between the boiler and drivers ( 2nd picture ) and the picture of the bottom of the engine that has been cited as reference.
              >
              > I totally agree on the Mantua parts being used. This is just about how the two sets of drivers are attached and "working".
              >
              > Backset first. I believe they are solidly attached to the boiler. Both at the back end by the trailing truck and at the front end . Look at the side view picture where you can see through the boiler right behind the steam chest, above the front end of the valve gear you can see a black "line" that I believe is the screw coming through the front of the frame attaching to the boiler. Looking real hard and following that line to the bottom of the frame you can ever so slightly make out the head of that screw making that back set of drivers rigidly mounted front and back. And yes this set of drivers is powered
              >
              > On to the front set of drivers. They are not powered but again using the two pictures I cited I am in agreement that bright screw head is a pivot point. Looking at the side view between the two sets of front drivers but just ever so slightly behind the first set you can see a wide silver piece that is were this screw comes through from the bottom to attach to the boiler above and pivots but not solid or rigid. But I believe I see that this entire front set of drivers with its frame, pilot , lead truck are all connected together as one piece and pivot under the front of the boiler at that point. (You can see the ladders are not attaced to the boiler) I think the back end of this whole connected frame just swings free in between the front of the back steam chest. No connection between front and back frames / drivers.
              >
              > I hope what I am trying to say is understood. If what I say is how this is set up there is a lot of front end boiler overhang like other HO articulated engines just this pivot point is in between the front set of drivers but that pivot point also allows the front set of drivers support when picked up. As to what radius it can take who knows ?????
              >
              > Actually if I am right it is "similar" in design as to how I created a pivot point under my Winton Allegheny boiler to create a place to hang the front set of drivers on it allowing movement but also support when picked up.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14532 From: jim heckard Date: 7/18/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
              Ray,
               
                  Got your post and I have to sit back and read it when brain is right but your second and third paragraphs I think are what I'm trying to describe.. I believe the main pivot point on this engine is between the  drivers of the front set.
               
                  Think of a four wheel lead  / pilot truck. It pivots in the middle and how it would track off that center line you describe.  I have a 2-4-4t Forney. The 4 ( middle number ) drivers are fixed. The back 4 for the trailing truck pivots in between the two sets of  wheels. Run it forward or backwards.   It needs large curves but it tracks.
               
                 On the engine in question you just have a kind of double pivot in the front if made the way I think. The pilot truck pivots from the middle, the front set of drivers pivots from the middle and since they are  ( I believe ) both connected to the same frame  both pivot off that one connected part  and the back set is rigid. At least right now that is what my mind is thinking
               
                  As far as how the engine being discussed would track, if it tracks at all. I wonder how well . Maybe it would need 48" radius curves . 
               
                                                       Jim H
               
                                       
                                            
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: erieberk
              Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 6:41 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted

               



              Okay Jim, I'll go along with that, if I'm understanding you correctly. I only hit "Maximize" to show it slightly enlarged from the way it showed it as a full page. Your 150% would have shown you much more -- at least more than I thought I saw. We'll assume that the back set (2 pairs) of drivers is rigedly mounted so that it can't swivel.

              Now, I'd like to concentrate on the front set of drivers (again, 2 pairs, of course). By your post, I note that you are in the same opinion as John in saying that the bright screw head is the pivot point for the front set of drivers. Unless there is more than one bright screw in this front mechanism (and PLEASE point any others out if I missed it), the only bright screw that I see is the one directly behind the first pair of drivers in this set of two pairs. In other words, this front set (two pairs) of drivers -- or, this front mechanism -- is pivoting a point between its front and rear pairs of drivers and not at the rear of the second driver set as is the method every other articulated is designed.

              Let's draw a centerline down the length of this boiler from the smokebox front (not the pilot, which is swiveling) to the back of the cab, as you look down on it. Now, picture this engine going into a curve. From what you guys have written, it appears to me that you're saying that this front mechanism will pivot in such a way that the front pair of drivers will pivot inward of the boiler's imaginary centerline and into the curve -- as any normal articulated will do. BUT, at this same time, the rear pair of drivers will pivot OUTWARD of the boiler's centerline -- and out of line with the sets of drivers of the rear mechanism which are centered dead on to the boiler's centerline. Either the weight of the engine holding the rear mechanism down between the gauge will derail the front mechanism due to this (front) mechanism's inclination to now swivel it's rear set of drivers out from the track gauge, OR if this same (rear set if drivers of the front mechanism) driver set somehow tends to remain in the track gauge it will force the lead pair of drivers of the rear mechanism out of the gauge (derail) towards the inside of the curve, since that pivoting from mechanism has it's rear drivers turned.

              This set up is just about completely unworkable as the only way that the rear mechanism's drivers can follow in the same gauge as the driver set immediately in front of it (the second driver set of the front mechanism) is for them all (except for any driver sets forward of the rear driver set in the front mechanism) to be in line with each other, just as how any of the models of them (and the prototypes) are set up. The drivers in the rear mechanism must always be in line with the rear driver set of the front mechanism that's leading them into the curve.

              Since the rear driver set in this engine's front mechanism pivots well beyond (to the side of) the rear mechanism's drivers to directly follow it (without being pulled out of the gauge) there will always be a derailment of either the front or the rear mechanism, as both mechanism's adjacent driver sets will always be opposed to each other to stay within the gauge on curves. The only way that such an engine may be able to negotiate curves is perhaps for either having the radius so slight (like about a 96" radius) that the pivoting action is kept at an absolute minimum, or, if there is sufficient side-slack in the driver sets to allow for them to be pulled back into the gauge (by the rails) at the same time that they're being pivoted out of the gauge. Ray F.W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Since I'm the guy who asked about the odd engine on Ebay I am going to propose what I see for your consideration. I enlarged the Ebay pictures to 150 % and am only going to use two pictures to describe what I see. The side view picture that you can see between the boiler and drivers ( 2nd picture ) and the picture of the bottom of the engine that has been cited as reference.
              >
              > I totally agree on the Mantua parts being used. This is just about how the two sets of drivers are attached and "working".
              >
              > Backset first. I believe they are solidly attached to the boiler. Both at the back end by the trailing truck and at the front end . Look at the side view picture where you can see through the boiler right behind the steam chest, above the front end of the valve gear you can see a black "line" that I believe is the screw coming through the front of the frame attaching to the boiler. Looking real hard and following that line to the bottom of the frame you can ever so slightly make out the head of that screw making that back set of drivers rigidly mounted front and back. And yes this set of drivers is powered
              >
              > On to the front set of drivers. They are not powered but again using the two pictures I cited I am in agreement that bright screw head is a pivot point. Looking at the side view between the two sets of front drivers but just ever so slightly behind the first set you can see a wide silver piece that is were this screw comes through from the bottom to attach to the boiler above and pivots but not solid or rigid. But I believe I see that this entire front set of drivers with its frame, pilot , lead truck are all connected together as one piece and pivot under the front of the boiler at that point. (You can see the ladders are not attaced to the boiler) I think the back end of this whole connected frame just swings free in between the front of the back steam chest. No connection between front and back frames / drivers.
              >
              > I hope what I am trying to say is understood. If what I say is how this is set up there is a lot of front end boiler overhang like other HO articulated engines just this pivot point is in between the front set of drivers but that pivot point also allows the front set of drivers support when picked up. As to what radius it can take who knows ?????
              >
              > Actually if I am right it is "similar" in design as to how I created a pivot point under my Winton Allegheny boiler to create a place to hang the front set of drivers on it allowing movement but also support when picked up.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14533 From: jim heckard Date: 7/18/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. Wanted
              Attachments :
                 I thought I would try to send a fast, rough drawing of what I'm trying to say in my post.. I'm sorry it's on the dark side but flash didn't show it all. Hope you can read it all and if needed enlarge to read better.
               
                
               
                                                       Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14534 From: erieberk Date: 7/18/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
              Jim after spending 45 minutes trying to explain it all to you, I just lost it all. Knowing I can't repeat exactly what I just got done typing, I'm not even going to try. Regretfully, I'm giving it up although you do need to think about it further (there's a lot that you missed). Ray

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ray,
              >
              > Got your post and I have to sit back and read it when brain is right but your second and third paragraphs I think are what I'm trying to describe.. I believe the main pivot point on this engine is between the drivers of the front set.
              >
              > Think of a four wheel lead / pilot truck. It pivots in the middle and how it would track off that center line you describe. I have a 2-4-4t Forney. The 4 ( middle number ) drivers are fixed. The back 4 for the trailing truck pivots in between the two sets of wheels. Run it forward or backwards. It needs large curves but it tracks.
              >
              > On the engine in question you just have a kind of double pivot in the front if made the way I think. The pilot truck pivots from the middle, the front set of drivers pivots from the middle and since they are ( I believe ) both connected to the same frame both pivot off that one connected part and the back set is rigid. At least right now that is what my mind is thinking
              >
              > As far as how the engine being discussed would track, if it tracks at all. I wonder how well . Maybe it would need 48" radius curves .
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: erieberk
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 6:41 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Okay Jim, I'll go along with that, if I'm understanding you correctly. I only hit "Maximize" to show it slightly enlarged from the way it showed it as a full page. Your 150% would have shown you much more -- at least more than I thought I saw. We'll assume that the back set (2 pairs) of drivers is rigedly mounted so that it can't swivel.
              >
              > Now, I'd like to concentrate on the front set of drivers (again, 2 pairs, of course). By your post, I note that you are in the same opinion as John in saying that the bright screw head is the pivot point for the front set of drivers. Unless there is more than one bright screw in this front mechanism (and PLEASE point any others out if I missed it), the only bright screw that I see is the one directly behind the first pair of drivers in this set of two pairs. In other words, this front set (two pairs) of drivers -- or, this front mechanism -- is pivoting a point between its front and rear pairs of drivers and not at the rear of the second driver set as is the method every other articulated is designed.
              >
              > Let's draw a centerline down the length of this boiler from the smokebox front (not the pilot, which is swiveling) to the back of the cab, as you look down on it. Now, picture this engine going into a curve. From what you guys have written, it appears to me that you're saying that this front mechanism will pivot in such a way that the front pair of drivers will pivot inward of the boiler's imaginary centerline and into the curve -- as any normal articulated will do. BUT, at this same time, the rear pair of drivers will pivot OUTWARD of the boiler's centerline -- and out of line with the sets of drivers of the rear mechanism which are centered dead on to the boiler's centerline. Either the weight of the engine holding the rear mechanism down between the gauge will derail the front mechanism due to this (front) mechanism's inclination to now swivel it's rear set of drivers out from the track gauge, OR if this same (rear set if drivers of the front mechanism) driver set somehow tends to remain in the track gauge it will force the lead pair of drivers of the rear mechanism out of the gauge (derail) towards the inside of the curve, since that pivoting from mechanism has it's rear drivers turned.
              >
              > This set up is just about completely unworkable as the only way that the rear mechanism's drivers can follow in the same gauge as the driver set immediately in front of it (the second driver set of the front mechanism) is for them all (except for any driver sets forward of the rear driver set in the front mechanism) to be in line with each other, just as how any of the models of them (and the prototypes) are set up. The drivers in the rear mechanism must always be in line with the rear driver set of the front mechanism that's leading them into the curve.
              >
              > Since the rear driver set in this engine's front mechanism pivots well beyond (to the side of) the rear mechanism's drivers to directly follow it (without being pulled out of the gauge) there will always be a derailment of either the front or the rear mechanism, as both mechanism's adjacent driver sets will always be opposed to each other to stay within the gauge on curves. The only way that such an engine may be able to negotiate curves is perhaps for either having the radius so slight (like about a 96" radius) that the pivoting action is kept at an absolute minimum, or, if there is sufficient side-slack in the driver sets to allow for them to be pulled back into the gauge (by the rails) at the same time that they're being pivoted out of the gauge. Ray F.W.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Since I'm the guy who asked about the odd engine on Ebay I am going to propose what I see for your consideration. I enlarged the Ebay pictures to 150 % and am only going to use two pictures to describe what I see. The side view picture that you can see between the boiler and drivers ( 2nd picture ) and the picture of the bottom of the engine that has been cited as reference.
              > >
              > > I totally agree on the Mantua parts being used. This is just about how the two sets of drivers are attached and "working".
              > >
              > > Backset first. I believe they are solidly attached to the boiler. Both at the back end by the trailing truck and at the front end . Look at the side view picture where you can see through the boiler right behind the steam chest, above the front end of the valve gear you can see a black "line" that I believe is the screw coming through the front of the frame attaching to the boiler. Looking real hard and following that line to the bottom of the frame you can ever so slightly make out the head of that screw making that back set of drivers rigidly mounted front and back. And yes this set of drivers is powered
              > >
              > > On to the front set of drivers. They are not powered but again using the two pictures I cited I am in agreement that bright screw head is a pivot point. Looking at the side view between the two sets of front drivers but just ever so slightly behind the first set you can see a wide silver piece that is were this screw comes through from the bottom to attach to the boiler above and pivots but not solid or rigid. But I believe I see that this entire front set of drivers with its frame, pilot , lead truck are all connected together as one piece and pivot under the front of the boiler at that point. (You can see the ladders are not attaced to the boiler) I think the back end of this whole connected frame just swings free in between the front of the back steam chest. No connection between front and back frames / drivers.
              > >
              > > I hope what I am trying to say is understood. If what I say is how this is set up there is a lot of front end boiler overhang like other HO articulated engines just this pivot point is in between the front set of drivers but that pivot point also allows the front set of drivers support when picked up. As to what radius it can take who knows ?????
              > >
              > > Actually if I am right it is "similar" in design as to how I created a pivot point under my Winton Allegheny boiler to create a place to hang the front set of drivers on it allowing movement but also support when picked up.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14535 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 7/18/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. Wanted [1 Attachment]
              All,

              Looks to me then, that, if the screw is the pivot point of the front engine, then the only way the loco could avoid derailing at every curve is if the connection of the front engine to the boiler is a slot which allows the front engine to slide sideways [like so many 4 wheel pilot trucks do].

              Just an opinion. Please don't shoot me.

              On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 7:57 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
               
              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]

                 I thought I would try to send a fast, rough drawing of what I'm trying to say in my post.. I'm sorry it's on the dark side but flash didn't show it all. Hope you can read it all and if needed enlarge to read better.
               
                
               
                                                       Jim H



              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14536 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. Wanted
              Agreed. Must have a slot then. I hope it does.  

              Sean



              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jul 19, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...> wrote:

               

              All,

              Looks to me then, that, if the screw is the pivot point of the front engine, then the only way the loco could avoid derailing at every curve is if the connection of the front engine to the boiler is a slot which allows the front engine to slide sideways [like so many 4 wheel pilot trucks do].

              Just an opinion. Please don't shoot me.

              On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 7:57 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net> wrote:
               
              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]

                 I thought I would try to send a fast, rough drawing of what I'm trying to say in my post.. I'm sorry it's on the dark side but flash didn't show it all. Hope you can read it all and if needed enlarge to read better.
               
                
               
                                                       Jim H



              --
              Regards,
              Walter


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14537 From: jim heckard Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D. Wanted
               
               
                   I was only stating what I thought I saw as far as how  this engine might track. My eyes far from perfect and I am known to be wrong sometimes. Ask my wife.
               
                   My interest in this engine has been peaked because of our discussion. The item has been sold. I know the buyer real well so we will be able to see for sure what is what. It shouldn't take to long from southern New Jersey. After we all know there might be a "For Sale Cheap" sign on it. Doesn't fit in my vintage collection but might keep as an oddity.
               
                Thanks for all your thoughts. Hey it made for an interesting debate.
               
                                                                                       Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14538 From: jim heckard Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Contest for fun of it
               
               
                      I want to challenge all members who feel like it to go to Ebay and put in    Item #130410062933    *M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender    before the pictures go away. I bought the engine mainly because there is some difference of opinion about this engine, how it operates as to how well it would track, negotiate curves and what radius, does the front truck pivot and how. Look at the pictures with it and take a stab for the fun of it.
               
                  When the engine arrives, and it shouldn't be to long priority mail and from New Jersey, the person with the best guesses will get a huge " ATTA BOY " . Some already have put forth their ideas. Read prior comments about the I.D.  Wanted engine.
               
                                                                                  Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14539 From: John H Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
              Well, this should be fun.

              The seller did state that the engine ran forward and backward but did say anything about going around a curve. I am real interested in seeing that thing with the shell off.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > I want to challenge all members who feel like it to go to Ebay and put in Item #130410062933 *M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender before the pictures go away. I bought the engine mainly because there is some difference of opinion about this engine, how it operates as to how well it would track, negotiate curves and what radius, does the front truck pivot and how. Look at the pictures with it and take a stab for the fun of it.
              >
              > When the engine arrives, and it shouldn't be to long priority mail and from New Jersey, the person with the best guesses will get a huge " ATTA BOY " . Some already have put forth their ideas. Read prior comments about the I.D. Wanted engine.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14540 From: erieberk Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
              Hi Jim, I'm going to take another stab at trying to explain why this engine will derail on curves, as it's presently assembled. I'm hoping that my 'puter won't put the screws to me again by wiping out all I've typed, in the similar wording I used yesterday (if I can remember what I said), as I'm always up for a challenge < g >. I know that my reluctance to try to duplicate what I wrote is not helping you one way or the other, and is not meant as a reflection towards you or your opinions, but I'm just doubtful I can match all of my same thoughts again, the same way, the second time -- but I'll see how it goes. I'll be replying to your previous stance on this, and the drawing you made after it. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > I want to challenge all members who feel like it to go to Ebay and put in Item #130410062933 *M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender before the pictures go away. I bought the engine mainly because there is some difference of opinion about this engine, how it operates as to how well it would track, negotiate curves and what radius, does the front truck pivot and how. Look at the pictures with it and take a stab for the fun of it.
              >
              > When the engine arrives, and it shouldn't be to long priority mail and from New Jersey, the person with the best guesses will get a huge " ATTA BOY " . Some already have put forth their ideas. Read prior comments about the I.D. Wanted engine.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14541 From: erieberk Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
              Jim, I thought that I would give you some time on this (yesterday), to mull it over as to what I've already described, before I responded to what you've written here. I see you've sent a drawing only 20 minutes after this post of yours, though, so I don't know if that allowed you much time to think on it. As you've now held fast on this second day of these discussions, I can see you've taken a firm stance on it.

              With this teply to your message, I'm going to try to illustrate -- using the "same" pilot truck as you just included here -- as to why the engine will derail, if you can picture this. Yes, 4-wheel pilot trucks pivot in the middle -- between its front pair of wheels and its back pair of wheels. However, one major difference between a 4-wheel pilot truck's pivoting design and the pivoting design of this locomotive's front driver set is simply (but extremely importantly) that while this locomotive's front driver set pivot is immoveably screwed to the boiler (which prevents any needed side movement of the front mechanism as a whole, all pivot trucks are designed to allow for this lateral movement of the whole truck (very unlike the swiveling driver set).

              Using Varney's 4-wheel pilot trucks, as an example, the Varney #1890K 4-Wheel Pilot Truck uses a #1754 Stabilizer Bar and #1755 Stabilizer Bar Spring which allows for INDEPENDENT (and needed) lateral movement of this lead truck just at the time (and during) it is entering a curve and pivoting -- which allows the back pair of pilot wheels to also move towards the inside of the curve even as they're being turned (swiveled) outwards. Varney's design with this is no accident, and the stabilizer is not just meant as a bar to hang the pilot truck on, but the stabilizer & spring is there for this specific reason. The pivot point of a pilot truck is never rigidly fastened into the boiler, without any means for lateral movement. The pivot point on this truck is completely independent of the boiler, as it pivots on the end of the stabilizer bar.

              Now let's take Varney's Economy 4-Wheel Pilot Truck Sub-Assembly #1936A. This casting has an elongated slot from one side to the other -- which again, allows for the necessary and eventual lateral movement of this truck in curves. Without that slot, if there were just a round hole in the center of this casting only slightly larger than the Varney #1269-F Pilot Screw, this lead truck would derail every time it entered a curve as the rear pair of pilot wheels would not be allowed to move inward when it is being forced to pivot outward. It stands to reason, that if the front pair of pilot wheels are pivoting inward with the curve, then -- since these two pairs (front and rear) of pilot wheels are rigidly connected to each other on one solid truck casting -- and -- since this casting swivels in the center -- then as the front wheels swivel in, the rear wheels MUST swivel out (like a see-saw). Without having the allowance to move laterally, the rear pair of pilot wheels would swivel out beyond the track gauge (just as far as the front pair of pilot wheels are swiveling in with the curve of the track).

              Both Walter and Sean have posted that they're in tune with this, and understand the need for a 4-wheel pilot truck to have some means to move laterally to be able to stay on the rails -- just as this locomotive's front driver set (of 2 pairs of drivers) needs some means of moving laterally besides just have a rigid pivot. The same action (back driver pair swings out) will tend to occur without a means to move laterally (just as a pilot truck does, and needs to), or the front driver set will also have its rear pair of drivers being swiveled out beyond the track gauge on curves as its front pair is swiveled in to meet the curve.

              Pilot trucks also have the advantage of having much smaller wheels -- about a scale 33" -- which ensures that the flange is not not large of a spread from front to rear of the wheel where it sits just inside of the rail. This also allows for easier manuevering through curves, even though the truck as a whole still needs the ability for lateral movement.

              The larger the drivers, such as 69", 72" and even 80" (and the more of them in a rigid frame), the less ability they have in negotiating curves, especially as the drivers get larger. I do recognize that this locomotive has only 2 pairs of drivers in either of its drive sets (mechanisms), but the swiveling set still needs room to move sideways. Mantua's Pacific drivers are 80", which hinders them even more so on curves.

              While the following is related to this locomotive only by reference to driver flanges (and secondly, to driver size), multiple-drivered locomotives may need to have "blind" (without flanges) center drivers to be able to negotiate tighter curves. While there is no swiveling taking place with such locomotives, I'm pointing out that one or more of the outer driver pairs' flanges will jump out over the track gauge on tight curves without having blind center drivers, as having flanges on those center drivers would not otherwise allow for enough lateral movement of the engine to prevent the outer drivers' flanges to ride up out of the gauge on tight curves. I seem to remember writing more on this engine, but can't remember it word for word as I originally meant. This will have to do, and I hope it clarifies things for you. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ray,
              >
              > Got your post and I have to sit back and read it when brain is right but your second and third paragraphs I think are what I'm trying to describe.. I believe the main pivot point on this engine is between the drivers of the front set.
              >
              > Think of a four wheel lead / pilot truck. It pivots in the middle and how it would track off that center line you describe. I have a 2-4-4t Forney. The 4 ( middle number ) drivers are fixed. The back 4 for the trailing truck pivots in between the two sets of wheels. Run it forward or backwards. It needs large curves but it tracks.
              >
              > On the engine in question you just have a kind of double pivot in the front if made the way I think. The pilot truck pivots from the middle, the front set of drivers pivots from the middle and since they are ( I believe ) both connected to the same frame both pivot off that one connected part and the back set is rigid. At least right now that is what my mind is thinking
              >
              > As far as how the engine being discussed would track, if it tracks at all. I wonder how well . Maybe it would need 48" radius curves .
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: erieberk
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 6:41 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Okay Jim, I'll go along with that, if I'm understanding you correctly. I only hit "Maximize" to show it slightly enlarged from the way it showed it as a full page. Your 150% would have shown you much more -- at least more than I thought I saw. We'll assume that the back set (2 pairs) of drivers is rigedly mounted so that it can't swivel.
              >
              > Now, I'd like to concentrate on the front set of drivers (again, 2 pairs, of course). By your post, I note that you are in the same opinion as John in saying that the bright screw head is the pivot point for the front set of drivers. Unless there is more than one bright screw in this front mechanism (and PLEASE point any others out if I missed it), the only bright screw that I see is the one directly behind the first pair of drivers in this set of two pairs. In other words, this front set (two pairs) of drivers -- or, this front mechanism -- is pivoting a point between its front and rear pairs of drivers and not at the rear of the second driver set as is the method every other articulated is designed.
              >
              > Let's draw a centerline down the length of this boiler from the smokebox front (not the pilot, which is swiveling) to the back of the cab, as you look down on it. Now, picture this engine going into a curve. From what you guys have written, it appears to me that you're saying that this front mechanism will pivot in such a way that the front pair of drivers will pivot inward of the boiler's imaginary centerline and into the curve -- as any normal articulated will do. BUT, at this same time, the rear pair of drivers will pivot OUTWARD of the boiler's centerline -- and out of line with the sets of drivers of the rear mechanism which are centered dead on to the boiler's centerline. Either the weight of the engine holding the rear mechanism down between the gauge will derail the front mechanism due to this (front) mechanism's inclination to now swivel it's rear set of drivers out from the track gauge, OR if this same (rear set if drivers of the front mechanism) driver set somehow tends to remain in the track gauge it will force the lead pair of drivers of the rear mechanism out of the gauge (derail) towards the inside of the curve, since that pivoting from mechanism has it's rear drivers turned.
              >
              > This set up is just about completely unworkable as the only way that the rear mechanism's drivers can follow in the same gauge as the driver set immediately in front of it (the second driver set of the front mechanism) is for them all (except for any driver sets forward of the rear driver set in the front mechanism) to be in line with each other, just as how any of the models of them (and the prototypes) are set up. The drivers in the rear mechanism must always be in line with the rear driver set of the front mechanism that's leading them into the curve.
              >
              > Since the rear driver set in this engine's front mechanism pivots well beyond (to the side of) the rear mechanism's drivers to directly follow it (without being pulled out of the gauge) there will always be a derailment of either the front or the rear mechanism, as both mechanism's adjacent driver sets will always be opposed to each other to stay within the gauge on curves. The only way that such an engine may be able to negotiate curves is perhaps for either having the radius so slight (like about a 96" radius) that the pivoting action is kept at an absolute minimum, or, if there is sufficient side-slack in the driver sets to allow for them to be pulled back into the gauge (by the rails) at the same time that they're being pivoted out of the gauge. Ray F.W.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Since I'm the guy who asked about the odd engine on Ebay I am going to propose what I see for your consideration. I enlarged the Ebay pictures to 150 % and am only going to use two pictures to describe what I see. The side view picture that you can see between the boiler and drivers ( 2nd picture ) and the picture of the bottom of the engine that has been cited as reference.
              > >
              > > I totally agree on the Mantua parts being used. This is just about how the two sets of drivers are attached and "working".
              > >
              > > Backset first. I believe they are solidly attached to the boiler. Both at the back end by the trailing truck and at the front end . Look at the side view picture where you can see through the boiler right behind the steam chest, above the front end of the valve gear you can see a black "line" that I believe is the screw coming through the front of the frame attaching to the boiler. Looking real hard and following that line to the bottom of the frame you can ever so slightly make out the head of that screw making that back set of drivers rigidly mounted front and back. And yes this set of drivers is powered
              > >
              > > On to the front set of drivers. They are not powered but again using the two pictures I cited I am in agreement that bright screw head is a pivot point. Looking at the side view between the two sets of front drivers but just ever so slightly behind the first set you can see a wide silver piece that is were this screw comes through from the bottom to attach to the boiler above and pivots but not solid or rigid. But I believe I see that this entire front set of drivers with its frame, pilot , lead truck are all connected together as one piece and pivot under the front of the boiler at that point. (You can see the ladders are not attaced to the boiler) I think the back end of this whole connected frame just swings free in between the front of the back steam chest. No connection between front and back frames / drivers.
              > >
              > > I hope what I am trying to say is understood. If what I say is how this is set up there is a lot of front end boiler overhang like other HO articulated engines just this pivot point is in between the front set of drivers but that pivot point also allows the front set of drivers support when picked up. As to what radius it can take who knows ?????
              > >
              > > Actually if I am right it is "similar" in design as to how I created a pivot point under my Winton Allegheny boiler to create a place to hang the front set of drivers on it allowing movement but also support when picked up.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14542 From: erieberk Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. Wanted
              Jim,

              Saw your drawing last night and took another good look at it just now to refresh myself with it. As everything appears to me to be drawn in a straight line and you made no apparent attempt to draw any mechanism as though going into a curve, nor as having the lead mechanism swivel as though going into a curve. You may just want to picture that front driver set as being swiveled as you may then be able to see that the rear pair of drivers in the front driver set will no longer line up with the drivers of the rear mechanism.

              I believe your point here was to show me that both the pilot truck and the front mechanism are screwed to the one long solid front frame, and that as the pilot truck swivels (and doesn't derail), so should the front driver set. Again, as I descibed in my previous post, you are completely missing the point that NO pilot truck is RIGIDLY swiveled from the engine's main-frame. On Varney's Economy 4-Wheel Pilot Truck, for instance, while the pivot screw is rigidly fastened into the main frame, the truck casting is PURPOSELY slotted sideways to enable the truck to move laterally when it needs to, as it enters curves. The Deluxe (sprung) pilot truck pivots from its stabilizer bar, not from the main-frame either, which allows for needed lateral movement.

              However, I also need to point out most importantly, that the Varney Sprung (Deluxe) Pilot Truck has its swivel point to the REAR of both pairs of pilot trucks via the #1146 Pivot Screw being mounted through its hole in the #1754 Stabilizer Bar to the #1753 Pivot Bar behind the rear pair of wheels. The entire pilot truck is then able to swivel in one direction, as a whole unit, with both pairs of wheels turning in the same direction -- these pairs of wheels do not swivel in opposite directions). The front driver set does not allow for lateral movement, and so it will derail when swiveled. Nor, is the front driver set swiveled at a point behind both driver pairs, as they should have been to allow for the rear mechanism's drivers to track them. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > I thought I would try to send a fast, rough drawing of what I'm trying to say in my post.. I'm sorry it's on the dark side but flash didn't show it all. Hope you can read it all and if needed enlarge to read better.
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14543 From: Nathan Stackhouse Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
              I believe the engine is articulated at the rear of the front driver set. The bright screw in this driver set holds the support for the front of the boiler. The triangular piece at the rear of th front driver set is were the pivot point to the rear set is attached. I believe the engine will track normally and will go around 24-26 inch curves. WAG based on pictures and statement item was made by an Engineer (not engine driver type!) I enjoy reading the mail from this group. My first Varney 0-4-0 Christmas 1946.
              Nate Stackhouse


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 3:24:00 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Contest for fun of it

               

               
               
                      I want to challenge all members who feel like it to go to Ebay and put in    Item #130410062933    *M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender    before the pictures go away. I bought the engine mainly because there is some difference of opinion about this engine, how it operates as to how well it would track, negotiate curves and what radius, does the front truck pivot and how. Look at the pictures with it and take a stab for the fun of it.
               
                  When the engine arrives, and it shouldn't be to long priority mail and from New Jersey, the person with the best guesses will get a huge " ATTA BOY " . Some already have put forth their ideas. Read prior comments about the I.D.  Wanted engine.
               
                                                                                  Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14544 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
              Jim, Just noticed a major typo on my part, in my recent message. See, I
              KNEW I'd screw it up from the way I tried to write (and lost) it last night.
              Please replace any reference I made to "Boiler" in my post before last with
              "Main-Frame." Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14545 From: jim heckard Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
                Ray F W,
               
                      Thanks for the response both last nights and this. As usual very clear and concise . The only part lacking in your Email is how do you feel this engine can track to take any radius.   Do you feel it is connected / hinged to the back set of rigid drivers and just hangs when picked up ? Do you feel that heavy silver looking piece just between and above the drivers of the front set in the clear side view picture, where you can see right through the boiler easily, is not attached to anything ? This is where I am hung up as it is an extension of where that silver screw head in the picture of the bottom of the engine ( that as been discussed ) comes into, through or whatever.  What is the reason for this heavier screw coming up from the bottom and where does it go ? This is one of the reasons I bought the engine. To be totally sure of this point and my thoughts / drawing as to how there is any movement in the front set of drivers.
               
                   I agree about the pilot trucks having a slot for movement and also the smaller diameter wheels but I just can't get away from my 2-4-4T Forney engine. Having a set of rigid 4 wheel drivers followed by a 4 wheel truck ( trailing truck in this instance ) a little way back that has no slot and  only a screw to pivot on. Yes there is a spring between the truck and underbody that can give some movement. Whether run front or back It tracks (  it needs a  very large radius and of course talking small wheel diameters compared to drivers ) and in MY mind is similar to this engine being discussed just in reverse, again in MY mind.
               
                  I guess even though I live in Pennsylvania I should be from Missouri. I want to have this engine in my hands to see.  I also want to see if I am right that the front set of drivers ,the frame they are in and up to the pilot in the front, including the lead truck are all one. I definitely want to see how this engine is designed to take any radius ( if it even can ) .
               
                  I appreciate your thoughts. I enjoy the exchange.  
               
                                                                    Jim H 
               
                
               
                 .
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: erieberk
              Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 5:51 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted

               



              Jim, I thought that I would give you some time on this (yesterday), to mull it over as to what I've already described, before I responded to what you've written here. I see you've sent a drawing only 20 minutes after this post of yours, though, so I don't know if that allowed you much time to think on it. As you've now held fast on this second day of these discussions, I can see you've taken a firm stance on it.

              With this teply to your message, I'm going to try to illustrate -- using the "same" pilot truck as you just included here -- as to why the engine will derail, if you can picture this. Yes, 4-wheel pilot trucks pivot in the middle -- between its front pair of wheels and its back pair of wheels. However, one major difference between a 4-wheel pilot truck's pivoting design and the pivoting design of this locomotive's front driver set is simply (but extremely importantly) that while this locomotive's front driver set pivot is immoveably screwed to the boiler (which prevents any needed side movement of the front mechanism as a whole, all pivot trucks are designed to allow for this lateral movement of the whole truck (very unlike the swiveling driver set).

              Using Varney's 4-wheel pilot trucks, as an example, the Varney #1890K 4-Wheel Pilot Truck uses a #1754 Stabilizer Bar and #1755 Stabilizer Bar Spring which allows for INDEPENDENT (and needed) lateral movement of this lead truck just at the time (and during) it is entering a curve and pivoting -- which allows the back pair of pilot wheels to also move towards the inside of the curve even as they're being turned (swiveled) outwards. Varney's design with this is no accident, and the stabilizer is not just meant as a bar to hang the pilot truck on, but the stabilizer & spring is there for this specific reason. The pivot point of a pilot truck is never rigidly fastened into the boiler, without any means for lateral movement. The pivot point on this truck is completely independent of the boiler, as it pivots on the end of the stabilizer bar.

              Now let's take Varney's Economy 4-Wheel Pilot Truck Sub-Assembly #1936A. This casting has an elongated slot from one side to the other -- which again, allows for the necessary and eventual lateral movement of this truck in curves. Without that slot, if there were just a round hole in the center of this casting only slightly larger than the Varney #1269-F Pilot Screw, this lead truck would derail every time it entered a curve as the rear pair of pilot wheels would not be allowed to move inward when it is being forced to pivot outward. It stands to reason, that if the front pair of pilot wheels are pivoting inward with the curve, then -- since these two pairs (front and rear) of pilot wheels are rigidly connected to each other on one solid truck casting -- and -- since this casting swivels in the center -- then as the front wheels swivel in, the rear wheels MUST swivel out (like a see-saw). Without having the allowance to move laterally, the rear pair of pilot wheels would swivel out beyond the track gauge (just as far as the front pair of pilot wheels are swiveling in with the curve of the track).

              Both Walter and Sean have posted that they're in tune with this, and understand the need for a 4-wheel pilot truck to have some means to move laterally to be able to stay on the rails -- just as this locomotive's front driver set (of 2 pairs of drivers) needs some means of moving laterally besides just have a rigid pivot. The same action (back driver pair swings out) will tend to occur without a means to move laterally (just as a pilot truck does, and needs to), or the front driver set will also have its rear pair of drivers being swiveled out beyond the track gauge on curves as its front pair is swiveled in to meet the curve.

              Pilot trucks also have the advantage of having much smaller wheels -- about a scale 33" -- which ensures that the flange is not not large of a spread from front to rear of the wheel where it sits just inside of the rail. This also allows for easier manuevering through curves, even though the truck as a whole still needs the ability for lateral movement.

              The larger the drivers, such as 69", 72" and even 80" (and the more of them in a rigid frame), the less ability they have in negotiating curves, especially as the drivers get larger. I do recognize that this locomotive has only 2 pairs of drivers in either of its drive sets (mechanisms), but the swiveling set still needs room to move sideways. Mantua's Pacific drivers are 80", which hinders them even more so on curves.

              While the following is related to this locomotive only by reference to driver flanges (and secondly, to driver size), multiple-drivered locomotives may need to have "blind" (without flanges) center drivers to be able to negotiate tighter curves. While there is no swiveling taking place with such locomotives, I'm pointing out that one or more of the outer driver pairs' flanges will jump out over the track gauge on tight curves without having blind center drivers, as having flanges on those center drivers would not otherwise allow for enough lateral movement of the engine to prevent the outer drivers' flanges to ride up out of the gauge on tight curves. I seem to remember writing more on this engine, but can't remember it word for word as I originally meant. This will have to do, and I hope it clarifies things for you. Ray F.W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ray,
              >
              > Got your post and I have to sit back and read it when brain is right but your second and third paragraphs I think are what I'm trying to describe.. I believe the main pivot point on this engine is between the drivers of the front set.
              >
              > Think of a four wheel lead / pilot truck. It pivots in the middle and how it would track off that center line you describe. I have a 2-4-4t Forney. The 4 ( middle number ) drivers are fixed. The back 4 for the trailing truck pivots in between the two sets of wheels. Run it forward or backwards. It needs large curves but it tracks.
              >
              > On the engine in question you just have a kind of double pivot in the front if made the way I think. The pilot truck pivots from the middle, the front set of drivers pivots from the middle and since they are ( I believe ) both connected to the same frame both pivot off that one connected part and the back set is rigid. At least right now that is what my mind is thinking
              >
              > As far as how the engine being discussed would track, if it tracks at all. I wonder how well . Maybe it would need 48" radius curves .
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: erieberk
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 6:41 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Okay Jim, I'll go along with that, if I'm understanding you correctly. I only hit "Maximize" to show it slightly enlarged from the way it showed it as a full page. Your 150% would have shown you much more -- at least more than I thought I saw. We'll assume that the back set (2 pairs) of drivers is rigedly mounted so that it can't swivel.
              >
              > Now, I'd like to concentrate on the front set of drivers (again, 2 pairs, of course). By your post, I note that you are in the same opinion as John in saying that the bright screw head is the pivot point for the front set of drivers. Unless there is more than one bright screw in this front mechanism (and PLEASE point any others out if I missed it), the only bright screw that I see is the one directly behind the first pair of drivers in this set of two pairs. In other words, this front set (two pairs) of drivers -- or, this front mechanism -- is pivoting a point between its front and rear pairs of drivers and not at the rear of the second driver set as is the method every other articulated is designed.
              >
              > Let's draw a centerline down the length of this boiler from the smokebox front (not the pilot, which is swiveling) to the back of the cab, as you look down on it. Now, picture this engine going into a curve. From what you guys have written, it appears to me that you're saying that this front mechanism will pivot in such a way that the front pair of drivers will pivot inward of the boiler's imaginary centerline and into the curve -- as any normal articulated will do. BUT, at this same time, the rear pair of drivers will pivot OUTWARD of the boiler's centerline -- and out of line with the sets of drivers of the rear mechanism which are centered dead on to the boiler's centerline. Either the weight of the engine holding the rear mechanism down between the gauge will derail the front mechanism due to this (front) mechanism's inclination to now swivel it's rear set of drivers out from the track gauge, OR if this same (rear set if drivers of the front mechanism) driver set somehow tends to remain in the track gauge it will force the lead pair of drivers of the rear mechanism out of the gauge (derail) towards the inside of the curve, since that pivoting from mechanism has it's rear drivers turned.
              >
              > This set up is just about completely unworkable as the only way that the rear mechanism's drivers can follow in the same gauge as the driver set immediately in front of it (the second driver set of the front mechanism) is for them all (except for any driver sets forward of the rear driver set in the front mechanism) to be in line with each other, just as how any of the models of them (and the prototypes) are set up. The drivers in the rear mechanism must always be in line with the rear driver set of the front mechanism that's leading them into the curve.
              >
              > Since the rear driver set in this engine's front mechanism pivots well beyond (to the side of) the rear mechanism's drivers to directly follow it (without being pulled out of the gauge) there will always be a derailment of either the front or the rear mechanism, as both mechanism's adjacent driver sets will always be opposed to each other to stay within the gauge on curves. The only way that such an engine may be able to negotiate curves is perhaps for either having the radius so slight (like about a 96" radius) that the pivoting action is kept at an absolute minimum, or, if there is sufficient side-slack in the driver sets to allow for them to be pulled back into the gauge (by the rails) at the same time that they're being pivoted out of the gauge. Ray F.W.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Since I'm the guy who asked about the odd engine on Ebay I am going to propose what I see for your consideration. I enlarged the Ebay pictures to 150 % and am only going to use two pictures to describe what I see. The side view picture that you can see between the boiler and drivers ( 2nd picture ) and the picture of the bottom of the engine that has been cited as reference.
              > >
              > > I totally agree on the Mantua parts being used. This is just about how the two sets of drivers are attached and "working".
              > >
              > > Backset first. I believe they are solidly attached to the boiler. Both at the back end by the trailing truck and at the front end . Look at the side view picture where you can see through the boiler right behind the steam chest, above the front end of the valve gear you can see a black "line" that I believe is the screw coming through the front of the frame attaching to the boiler. Looking real hard and following that line to the bottom of the frame you can ever so slightly make out the head of that screw making that back set of drivers rigidly mounted front and back. And yes this set of drivers is powered
              > >
              > > On to the front set of drivers. They are not powered but again using the two pictures I cited I am in agreement that bright screw head is a pivot point. Looking at the side view between the two sets of front drivers but just ever so slightly behind the first set you can see a wide silver piece that is were this screw comes through from the bottom to attach to the boiler above and pivots but not solid or rigid. But I believe I see that this entire front set of drivers with its frame, pilot , lead truck are all connected together as one piece and pivot under the front of the boiler at that point. (You can see the ladders are not attaced to the boiler) I think the back end of this whole connected frame just swings free in between the front of the back steam chest. No connection between front and back frames / drivers.
              > >
              > > I hope what I am trying to say is understood. If what I say is how this is set up there is a lot of front end boiler overhang like other HO articulated engines just this pivot point is in between the front set of drivers but that pivot point also allows the front set of drivers support when picked up. As to what radius it can take who knows ?????
              > >
              > > Actually if I am right it is "similar" in design as to how I created a pivot point under my Winton Allegheny boiler to create a place to hang the front set of drivers on it allowing movement but also support when picked up.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14546 From: jim heckard Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
                   No problem . It's usually me who makes the errors typing to slow trying to  keep up with thoughts in my head. (There are to many things going back and forth.) We should be at a round table discussing this ( at least for me ). I am going to wait for the engine to arrive and then eat a little crow. Going to have a cup of Irish coffee, sit back and relax.
               
                                                                                  Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 6:45 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted

               

              Jim, Just noticed a major typo on my part, in my recent message. See, I
              KNEW I'd screw it up from the way I tried to write (and lost) it last night.
              Please replace any reference I made to "Boiler" in my post before last with
              "Main-Frame." Ray F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14547 From: bob d Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
              Can't venture a guess on much other than I bet it runs like....., ....um, erm, doesn't run worth a plug nickle....

              Bob

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > I want to challenge all members who feel like it to go to Ebay and put in Item #130410062933 *M5 HO Mantua? 4-4-4-2 with matching tender before the pictures go away. I bought the engine mainly because there is some difference of opinion about this engine, how it operates as to how well it would track, negotiate curves and what radius, does the front truck pivot and how. Look at the pictures with it and take a stab for the fun of it.
              >
              > When the engine arrives, and it shouldn't be to long priority mail and from New Jersey, the person with the best guesses will get a huge " ATTA BOY " . Some already have put forth their ideas. Read prior comments about the I.D. Wanted engine.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14548 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
              Jim, I noticed Nate's reply, where he feels that the pivot is behind (to
              the rear of) the second pair of drivers in the front mechanism. If this is
              the case, we're both wrong in thinking that the pivot is that bright metal
              screw. We'll, if he's right, at least it's sure to track right, but I don't
              know what makes him so sure of this. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14549 From: Nathan Stackhouse Date: 7/19/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
              Ray F.W.   and others, The boiler even if it is a coke bottle shape or what ever is EXTREMELY well done. Thus modeled by an Engineer! Therefore I stand by my observation of the drivers assembly! I sure hope JIM gets the item quickly so we can SEE how it was modled. Looking forward to more input on this subject. Nate
              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 9:41:19 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted

               

              Jim, I noticed Nate's reply, where he feels that the pivot is behind (to
              the rear of) the second pair of drivers in the front mechanism. If this is
              the case, we're both wrong in thinking that the pivot is that bright metal
              screw. We'll, if he's right, at least it's sure to track right, but I don't
              know what makes him so sure of this. Ray F.W.</HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14550 From: erieberk Date: 7/20/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
              Nate, I agree that the boiler splicing was well done, which I also had stated in different words. While it might stand to reason that a modeler having this much talent might also have enough knowledge to design his running gear in the best possible manner, that may not necessarily follow. I do hope the pivot for the front engine is where you state it to be, but I just went back up there and re-checked the photo showing the underside of the mechanisms and still couldn't tell where it was hinged.

              I still saw again, the bright silver screw and what appeared to be a flat washer -- possibly being the pivot, between the forward and back driver pairs in this front engine -- and I also saw some work to the rear of this same back pair of drivers, but as the photo is too dimly lit (much of it being completely dark) and as there's no close-up of just that front engine, I can't even make out what that work represents or even if it's a screw. I guess time will tell, when Jim gets the item later this week. I am curious as to what you saw that I didn't, at the rear of this front engine, to make you feel it was pivoted back there, unless you're coupling that area's appearance (as having some kind of work done) with what we see of this modeler's workmanship on the boiler.

              I'm not saying you're wrong as I don't know, but I'm just as eager to see what Jim has to tell us about this. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Nathan Stackhouse <nathan.stackhouse@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ray F.W.   and others, The boiler even if it is a coke bottle shape or what ever
              > is EXTREMELY well done. Thus modeled by an Engineer! Therefore I stand by my
              > observation of the drivers assembly! I sure hope JIM gets the item quickly so we
              > can SEE how it was modeled. Looking forward to more input on this subject. Nate



              > ________________________________
              > From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 9:41:19 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted
              >
              >  
              > Jim, I noticed Nate's reply, where he feels that the pivot is behind (to
              > the rear of) the second pair of drivers in the front mechanism. If this is
              > the case, we're both wrong in thinking that the pivot is that bright metal
              > screw. We'll, if he's right, at least it's sure to track right, but I don't
              > know what makes him so sure of this. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14551 From: erieberk Date: 7/20/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
              Jim, At the very least, you'll have a bunch of Mantua parts on hand with this -- 2 sets of valve gear, 4 pairs of drivers (2 of them geared), a motor of yet unknown origin, but probably of the same Mantua vintage, etc. You could even recoup a cast Mantua Pacific boiler out of all this if you cut it apart again and reassembled it the way John Tyler intended it. (LOL). Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > No problem . It's usually me who makes the errors typing to slow trying to keep up with thoughts in my head. (There are to many things going back and forth.) We should be at a round table discussing this ( at least for me ). I am going to wait for the engine to arrive and then eat a little crow. Going to have a cup of Irish coffee, sit back and relax.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: erieberk@...
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 6:45 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim, Just noticed a major typo on my part, in my recent message. See, I
              > KNEW I'd screw it up from the way I tried to write (and lost) it last night.
              > Please replace any reference I made to "Boiler" in my post before last with
              > "Main-Frame." Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14552 From: Nathan Stackhouse Date: 7/20/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. wanted
              Ray F. W. On the EBay listing I receive when the picture is enlarged it provides for up to a 400% blowup. That is what I used to view the triangular screwed on piece behind the rear driver of the front engine. Time will tell. Nice having a discussion with you. Nate


              From: erieberk <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 8:30:42 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted

               



              Nate, I agree that the boiler splicing was well done, which I also had stated in different words. While it might stand to reason that a modeler having this much talent might also have enough knowledge to design his running gear in the best possible manner, that may not necessarily follow. I do hope the pivot for the front engine is where you state it to be, but I just went back up there and re-checked the photo showing the underside of the mechanisms and still couldn't tell where it was hinged.

              I still saw again, the bright silver screw and what appeared to be a flat washer -- possibly being the pivot, between the forward and back driver pairs in this front engine -- and I also saw some work to the rear of this same back pair of drivers, but as the photo is too dimly lit (much of it being completely dark) and as there's no close-up of just that front engine, I can't even make out what that work represents or even if it's a screw. I guess time will tell, when Jim gets the item later this week. I am curious as to what you saw that I didn't, at the rear of this front engine, to make you feel it was pivoted back there, unless you're coupling that area's appearance (as having some kind of work done) with what we see of this modeler's workmanship on the boiler.

              I'm not saying you're wrong as I don't know, but I'm just as eager to see what Jim has to tell us about this. Ray F.W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Nathan Stackhouse <nathan.stackhouse@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ray F.W. Â  and others, The boiler even if it is a coke bottle shape or what ever
              > is EXTREMELY well done. Thus modeled by an Engineer! Therefore I stand by my
              > observation of the drivers assembly! I sure hope JIM gets the item quickly so we
              > can SEE how it was modeled. Looking forward to more input on this subject. Nate

              > ________________________________
              > From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 9:41:19 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: I. D. wanted
              >
              >  
              > Jim, I noticed Nate's reply, where he feels that the pivot is behind (to
              > the rear of) the second pair of drivers in the front mechanism. If this is
              > the case, we're both wrong in thinking that the pivot is that bright metal
              > screw. We'll, if he's right, at least it's sure to track right, but I don't
              > know what makes him so sure of this. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14553 From: jim heckard Date: 7/20/2010
              Subject: Re: I. D. Wanted
              
                    I have to leave this morning for my monthly trip to the hospital. I haven't gotten time to read or study some of the latest post fully but I am enclosing an Email from someone outside the Yahoo group and their THEORY. I don't agree or disagree with it.
               
                   Again I am only stating what I see in the pictures. I'm glad others see other things and are pointing them out. I don't know for sure HOW it is designed and IF it works / tracks / what radius. Pictures leave everyone guessing. That is why I asked and appreciate every comment made. Because of differences of opinion is why I plunked out $140 bucks to see. Not to prove a point but everyone has me thinking. I think it is an interesting debate.
               
                                                 Jim H
               

              It does look like like a functional T1 copy. I think it's cute. The guy had an idea and he executed it well. I think the front truck is the usual slotted one with a screw into the cylinder block and probably boiler, but it's easier to use a nut and cut a long screw to length then, rather than have to get the length just right. Lots of range, no problem. I also think the frame is jointed, like the T1, and probably pivots on that silver screw. Someone that careful would surely know it had to do that. Probably "mortised" the two frame halves together. I bet it'll take 18".


               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14554 From: jim heckard Date: 7/20/2010
              Subject: I. D. Wanted odd engine
                    I'm back with thinned blood which might make my clogged brain take in info better. I just received a message that my odd engine is in Boyertown, PA and was shipped out to me. Might be here tomorrow.
               
                  Let me explain the slight delay. I have stopped bidding on Ebay due to a problem with Pay Pal. However I am fortunate to have a very good friend in Boyertown, PA who will bid for me, pay by Pay Pal for me till I get the money to him. ( Nice Friend ) Usually after he wins the seller agrees to send the item to me with the address my friend provides. This seller had the engine packed, addressed and ready to ship to my friends address and didn't want to change things. A little extra shipping cost and an added day. Answers to follow soon.
               
               
                                                                              Jim
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14555 From: VtHam Date: 7/20/2010
              Subject: Contest for fun of it
              Attachments :
              Hello Jim and members,
              I downloaded the photos of this one of a kind gem and I'll take some guesses
              as follows. It's definitely a neat little engine. I'm a fan of Mantua locos
              and have kit bashed several of them and discovered ways of making them run
              just as quiet and smooth as anything made today. Looking this one over, I
              would say the craftsman did a fine job, especially when he (she?) joined the
              two boiler sections together. Since it is only a rear driven engine, I would
              say that it might be a weak pulling engine especially on grades, unless of
              course there is plenty of weight over the four rear drivers. I'm assuming
              from the photos that it is articulated so my guess is that it will handle 18
              inch radius curves or less.

              I feel sure that the front truck pivots since it is most likely a standard
              Mantua pilot truck. As to how well it runs, one can only guess until it is
              run for the first time. If a stock Mantua drive was used, my experience says
              it will probably run OK but may be a bit noisy. If it has one of Mantua's
              gear box covers, which I have found to be a big plus, it may be a nice quiet
              runner. You may want to add a skew wound can motor if it has an open frame
              motor.

              Later on, getting power to the front engine can be a real challenge. I have
              a Mantua logger which has a similar drive wheel configuration to your new
              purchase but I am not happy with the way it runs. I am experimenting with
              different types of couplings between the front and rears engines to smooth
              out the running and quiet it down. I'm sure that I will eventually find the
              right combination one of these days. Perhaps NWSL gear boxes will be the
              answer.

              Hopefully, your new purchase will bring you many hours of enjoyment. I'll be
              waiting to hear all about it.

              Regards,
              Richard in Vermont
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14556 From: Jim Waterman Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Contest for fun of it
              Jim
               
              Really cool engine.
               
              Looks like mostly Mantua Pacific donor parts.
               
              You really need to tone down those Red drivers though.
               
              Jim
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14557 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
              Those red drivers make you wonder if the surgery to create it was done in Europe, or by a European modeler.

              On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Jim Waterman <Watermaj@...> wrote:
               

              Jim
               
              Really cool engine.
               
              Looks like mostly Mantua Pacific donor parts.
               
              You really need to tone down those Red drivers though.
               
              Jim



              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14558 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
               
               
              Jim W, Walter B, All,
               
                       I am sitting here patiently waiting for the mail to come usually around 11:00 for the odd engine. From the first I saw it the red wheels made me think right away about some European connection.  One thing that there has been NO disagreement about, including me and others out side the Yahoo groups, is can the red wheels. After I see the engine I might decide to keep and make changes. I'm not really into modification but this might be fun to fool with. Definitely the red will go.
               
                    After the engine arrives I hope to ask for  information from the seller, who happens to be a lady, concerning who made it or where she got it from . I'm not sure what my chances are there.
               
                                                              Jim H
               
                                    
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:31 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Contest for fun of it

               

              Those red drivers make you wonder if the surgery to create it was done in Europe, or by a European modeler.

              On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Jim Waterman <Watermaj@comcast. net> wrote:
               

              Jim
               
              Really cool engine.
               
              Looks like mostly Mantua Pacific donor parts.
               
              You really need to tone down those Red drivers though.
               
              Jim



              --
              Regards,
              Walter

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14559 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
              Jim, all,

              The red wheels and American boiler, makes me think someone was going for a Chinese design. German DB steamers had red wheels too, but very different boilers.

              Nice little loco in any event - hope it runs well for you.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Wed, 7/21/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Contest for fun of it
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 8:49 AM

               

               
               
              Jim W, Walter B, All,
               
                       I am sitting here patiently waiting for the mail to come usually around 11:00 for the odd engine. From the first I saw it the red wheels made me think right away about some European connection.  One thing that there has been NO disagreement about, including me and others out side the Yahoo groups, is can the red wheels. After I see the engine I might decide to keep and make changes. I'm not really into modification but this might be fun to fool with. Definitely the red will go.
               
                    After the engine arrives I hope to ask for  information from the seller, who happens to be a lady, concerning who made it or where she got it from . I'm not sure what my chances are there.
               
                                                              Jim H
               
                                    
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:31 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Contest for fun of it

               

              Those red drivers make you wonder if the surgery to create it was done in Europe, or by a European modeler.

              On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Jim Waterman <Watermaj@comcast. net> wrote:
               

              Jim
               
              Really cool engine.
               
              Looks like mostly Mantua Pacific donor parts.
               
              You really need to tone down those Red drivers though.
               
              Jim



              --
              Regards,
              Walter

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14560 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Contest for fun of it
              I recall reading somewhere that the red drivers were not just decorative, but gave a quick background to check for cracks in the castings--since grease getting into a crack would show up  quite well against the red background.  gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 6:49 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Contest for fun of it

               
               
              Jim W, Walter B, All,
               
                       I am sitting here patiently waiting for the mail to come usually around 11:00 for the odd engine. From the first I saw it the red wheels made me think right away about some European connection.  One thing that there has been NO disagreement about, including me and others out side the Yahoo groups, is can the red wheels. After I see the engine I might decide to keep and make changes. I'm not really into modification but this might be fun to fool with. Definitely the red will go.
               
                    After the engine arrives I hope to ask for  information from the seller, who happens to be a lady, concerning who made it or where she got it from . I'm not sure what my chances are there.
               
                                                              Jim H
               
                                    
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:31 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Contest for fun of it

               

              Those red drivers make you wonder if the surgery to create it was done in Europe, or by a European modeler.

              On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Jim Waterman <Watermaj@comcast. net> wrote:
               

              Jim
               
              Really cool engine.
               
              Looks like mostly Mantua Pacific donor parts.
               
              You really need to tone down those Red drivers though.
               
              Jim



              --
              Regards,
              Walter

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14561 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Answers to odd I D Wanted
              Hi All,
               
                          I received that odd modified Mantua engine and am sending a quick message for now. Later I will send pictures after I find out how it runs, tracks and radius it will take.  To those that hadn't looked go to ebay item  130410062933 while the pictures still there and read prior post about this thread.
               
                  We all know the back set of drivers is rigid. The front set DOES pivot on the shiny screw that has been discussed and goes up through the front drivers, frame and is attached to the boiler.  Look at the good side view picture and you can see a wider silver piece between and atop the drivers of the front set as to where it attaches to the boiler. The front drivers with its frame up to the pilot including the leading truck are all one as thought.    There is some side play ( A SLOT made of about a 1/4" ) in this entire piece ( front set driver piece ) where the screw goes through.
               
               There is NO hinge between the the front and back set of drivers. The back end of the front set swings freely in front of the back steam chest
               
                  As for the splice of the boilers. Not as nice as we thought. The shadows of the pictures limited seeing where it is. I will try to describe.
               
                   Go to the top of the boiler almost directly above the center of the back driver in the back set, about 3/4 of an inch in front of the bell and just at the back of that square box is the jointure line.Really not the best mesh we thought. At the point joined  the back portion and sides of the boiler are  wider / higher by about 1/4.
               
                  I will run the engine to try to determine how well it runs, how good it tracks and what radius. I will then try to take clear close-up pictures of all of this and send. Keep this message to go with the follow up pictures. The modifications are , in my opinion , nothing spectacular or engineered that many on the site could not perform.
               
                  Check all back emails about this engine to see who was the closest in guessing the facts. More to follow later.
               
                                                                          Jim H
               
                 
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14562 From: erieberk Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Answers to odd I D Wanted
              Hi Jim, Glad to see this kitbashed engine arrived. Naturally, we'll all be waiting to hear how it runs (and takes curves). Having the slot in the front engine's frame where the shiney pivot screw goes through makes all the difference in the world, as to it's needs in taking curves -- just as a solid cast pilot truck needs/has. In theory now, this slot should allow for the needed lateral movement of the front engine -- PROVIDED there is not too much weight on the front frame from the boiler to prevent the movement, but maybe some grease to those surfaces may be all that's needed. I'm still having a hard time trying to picture where the front half of the boiler is resting on the front engine, when all's I saw in the photo was open space between them. I'll be watching for new photos too, and your post on this. Catch you later to see how the loco made out. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi All,
              >
              > I received that odd modified Mantua engine and am sending a quick message for now. Later I will send pictures after I find out how it runs, tracks and radius it will take. To those that hadn't looked go to ebay item 130410062933 while the pictures still there and read prior post about this thread.
              >
              > We all know the back set of drivers is rigid. The front set DOES pivot on the shiny screw that has been discussed and goes up through the front drivers, frame and is attached to the boiler. Look at the good side view picture and you can see a wider silver piece between and atop the drivers of the front set as to where it attaches to the boiler. The front drivers with its frame up to the pilot including the leading truck are all one as thought. There is some side play ( A SLOT made of about a 1/4" ) in this entire piece ( front set driver piece ) where the screw goes through.
              >
              > There is NO hinge between the the front and back set of drivers. The back end of the front set swings freely in front of the back steam chest
              >
              > As for the splice of the boilers. Not as nice as we thought. The shadows of the pictures limited seeing where it is. I will try to describe.
              >
              > Go to the top of the boiler almost directly above the center of the back driver in the back set, about 3/4 of an inch in front of the bell and just at the back of that square box is the jointure line.Really not the best mesh we thought. At the point joined the back portion and sides of the boiler are wider / higher by about 1/4.
              >
              > I will run the engine to try to determine how well it runs, how good it tracks and what radius. I will then try to take clear close-up pictures of all of this and send. Keep this message to go with the follow up pictures. The modifications are , in my opinion , nothing spectacular or engineered that many on the site could not perform.
              >
              > Check all back emails about this engine to see who was the closest in guessing the facts. More to follow later.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14563 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: I.D.Wanted answers
                    Well here are some pictures concerning that odd Mantua 4-4-4-2 engine from Ebay and how it works. I will explain each picture below. I didn't want to take to many and some didn't show because of the black paint, poor lighting and terrible camera man even with great camera.
               
                 Let me state some truths:
                   1   It does run plus backward and forward poorly. ( Explanation to follow why )
                   2   It is one of a kind.
                   3   It wasn't engineered by anyone special. Many could do it and better
                   4   It wasn't worth the money the way it is now
               
                 The pictures I sent
               
                    Picture 1    The splice and where it is. It is just behind the square box on top of the boiler. ( I'm to dumb to know what it's called.) It's not that well done nor totally invisible. Black paint hides a lot. If you look closely at the walkway you can see the joint. As to what the boilers are. I'm sure Mantua but I can't understand the joint in this sense. The walkways are even looking from the side but the back portion of the boiler splice is roughly an 1/8 th " in the diameter difference as you follow it up from the walkway around the top and down to the other walkway. If the same two types of boilers were used I can't understand this " step up"  look at the joint.
               
                    Picture 2   There is no hinge / connection of any type between the back and forward sets of drivers. The front set just swivels between the back steam chest which you can see is not filed to good.
               
                    Picture 3    The front set of drivers is all one piece including the frame up to the pilot including the lead truck and pivots on that bright screw with the washer . ( Later when I tried to test what radius this engine would run on I took off the washer for more movement without any success. Slot needs work)
               
                     Picture 4.  This one entire piece for the front "moving" drivers showing the POORLY cut out slot. The top part of this that goes against the boiler is a piece of clear Lucite plastic that is cut out better having a slight radius in the slot  . I feel if the bottom better matched the radius cut in the plastic it would help track better.
               
                  Running, tracking, etc. :
               
                  It has one normal Mantua open frame motor. It does not have enough power to pull 8 plastic Marx HO cars without slipping badly. The motor would have to be more powerful or a second motor added to the front drivers ( if possible ). I did notice that the front driver on the back set of drivers does not sit down on the track fully. I think some good could be accomplished by filing a little of the top of the slotted Lucite plastic piece I talked about that is used as a slotted spacer for the front set of drivers. I believe this would let all the 4 back set drivers engage the track for more traction / pulling power. ( Guess right now ) 
               
                 It will not run on 18' radius. Comes close on 22".  ( If the front drivers on the back set of drivers was a blind driver it might  and the slot on the front set made better for a little more movement ) I think it would run on 24" radius which I don't have. Would have to find some flex track to try but will probably be apart being re engineered  to try to improve overall  abilities and appearance first.
               
               
                I hope I didn't make any mistakes.  I wish Ray F W or W Jay W were composing this. ( Ray, I was also hoping my computer didn't shut down writing all of this or I would have thrown it out he window ). If I missed anything important or you want to know something specific just ask. The engine will now be taken apart, stripped of paint, re-engineered to run better ( hopefully ) and then painted and decaled. It then can become part of the  "fantasy" end of my collection.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14564 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
              You now have a bunch of spare parts.
              Dave

              > 4 It wasn't worth the money the way it is now
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14565 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
              Hi Dave,
               
                  You are right about having a lot of spare Mantua parts but if you really think of it the boiler(s) and the loped off Pacific drivers / frames are basically useless for much else.
               
                  While it might take some time I am sometimes a driven man to restore " basket cases " to something useful. This engine now intrigues me. I will get it running much better, more power ala Tim the Tool Man Taylor, pulling more cars, tracking better and taking a radius of 22" to 24".
               
                                                Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:03 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: I.D.Wanted answers

               

              You now have a bunch of spare parts.
              Dave

              > 4 It wasn't worth the money the way it is now
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14566 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers [4 Attachments]
              Jim,
               
              I kind of had a sick feeling about that Jim when you said you bought it.  Maybe if you have a spare Varney Yellowstone shell, you can now put it to good use. I have one, but I intend to use it on my own someday...
               
              From the side it looked pretty good, but I was conserned when I saw the top view and just where thay had spliced it, just behind the box. I hope you don't feel too bad about it. It is still a pretty neat piece and ha some potential.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 2:52:53 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] I.D.Wanted answers [4 Attachments]

               

                    Well here are some pictures concerning that odd Mantua 4-4-4-2 engine from Ebay and how it works. I will explain each picture below. I didn't want to take to many and some didn't show because of the black paint, poor lighting and terrible camera man even with great camera.
               
                 Let me state some truths:
                   1   It does run plus backward and forward poorly. ( Explanation to follow why )
                   2   It is one of a kind.
                   3   It wasn't engineered by anyone special. Many could do it and better
                   4   It wasn't worth the money the way it is now
               
                 The pictures I sent
               
                    Picture 1    The splice and where it is. It is just behind the square box on top of the boiler. ( I'm to dumb to know what it's called.) It's not that well done nor totally invisible. Black paint hides a lot. If you look closely at the walkway you can see the joint. As to what the boilers are. I'm sure Mantua but I can't understand the joint in this sense. The walkways are even looking from the side but the back portion of the boiler splice is roughly an 1/8 th " in the diameter difference as you follow it up from the walkway around the top and down to the other walkway. If the same two types of boilers were used I can't understand this " step up"  look at the joint.
               
                    Picture 2   There is no hinge / connection of any type between the back and forward sets of drivers. The front set just swivels between the back steam chest which you can see is not filed to good.
               
                    Picture 3    The front set of drivers is all one piece including the frame up to the pilot including the lead truck and pivots on that bright screw with the washer . ( Later when I tried to test what radius this engine would run on I took off the washer for more movement without any success. Slot needs work)
               
                     Picture 4.  This one entire piece for the front "moving" drivers showing the POORLY cut out slot. The top part of this that goes against the boiler is a piece of clear Lucite plastic that is cut out better having a slight radius in the slot  . I feel if the bottom better matched the radius cut in the plastic it would help track better.
               
                  Running, tracking, etc. :
               
                  It has one normal Mantua open frame motor. It does not have enough power to pull 8 plastic Marx HO cars without slipping badly. The motor would have to be more powerful or a second motor added to the front drivers ( if possible ). I did notice that the front driver on the back set of drivers does not sit down on the track fully. I think some good could be accomplished by filing a little of the top of the slotted Lucite plastic piece I talked about that is used as a slotted spacer for the front set of drivers. I believe this would let all the 4 back set drivers engage the track for more traction / pulling power. ( Guess right now ) 
               
                 It will not run on 18' radius. Comes close on 22".  ( If the front drivers on the back set of drivers was a blind driver it might  and the slot on the front set made better for a little more movement ) I think it would run on 24" radius which I don't have. Would have to find some flex track to try but will probably be apart being re engineered  to try to improve overall  abilities and appearance first.
               
               
                I hope I didn't make any mistakes.  I wish Ray F W or W Jay W were composing this. ( Ray, I was also hoping my computer didn't shut down writing all of this or I would have thrown it out he window ). If I missed anything important or you want to know something specific just ask. The engine will now be taken apart, stripped of paint, re-engineered to run better ( hopefully ) and then painted and decaled. It then can become part of the  "fantasy" end of my collection.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
               
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14567 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers [4 Attachments]
              Jim,

              Does it look to you like at one time the creator of this loco attempted to connect the front and rear engines with a short, too short, drawbar? Picture 2 shows what appear to be 2 small holes, one on each engine, just a short distance from one another.

              On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 2:52 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
               
              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]

                    Well here are some pictures concerning that odd Mantua 4-4-4-2 engine from Ebay and how it works. I will explain each picture below. I didn't want to take to many and some didn't show because of the black paint, poor lighting and terrible camera man even with great camera.
               
                 Let me state some truths:
                   1   It does run plus backward and forward poorly. ( Explanation to follow why )
                   2   It is one of a kind.
                   3   It wasn't engineered by anyone special. Many could do it and better
                   4   It wasn't worth the money the way it is now
               
                 The pictures I sent
               
                    Picture 1    The splice and where it is. It is just behind the square box on top of the boiler. ( I'm to dumb to know what it's called.) It's not that well done nor totally invisible. Black paint hides a lot. If you look closely at the walkway you can see the joint. As to what the boilers are. I'm sure Mantua but I can't understand the joint in this sense. The walkways are even looking from the side but the back portion of the boiler splice is roughly an 1/8 th " in the diameter difference as you follow it up from the walkway around the top and down to the other walkway. If the same two types of boilers were used I can't understand this " step up"  look at the joint.
               
                    Picture 2   There is no hinge / connection of any type between the back and forward sets of drivers. The front set just swivels between the back steam chest which you can see is not filed to good.
               
                    Picture 3    The front set of drivers is all one piece including the frame up to the pilot including the lead truck and pivots on that bright screw with the washer . ( Later when I tried to test what radius this engine would run on I took off the washer for more movement without any success. Slot needs work)
               
                     Picture 4.  This one entire piece for the front "moving" drivers showing the POORLY cut out slot. The top part of this that goes against the boiler is a piece of clear Lucite plastic that is cut out better having a slight radius in the slot  . I feel if the bottom better matched the radius cut in the plastic it would help track better.
               
                  Running, tracking, etc. :
               
                  It has one normal Mantua open frame motor. It does not have enough power to pull 8 plastic Marx HO cars without slipping badly. The motor would have to be more powerful or a second motor added to the front drivers ( if possible ). I did notice that the front driver on the back set of drivers does not sit down on the track fully. I think some good could be accomplished by filing a little of the top of the slotted Lucite plastic piece I talked about that is used as a slotted spacer for the front set of drivers. I believe this would let all the 4 back set drivers engage the track for more traction / pulling power. ( Guess right now ) 
               
                 It will not run on 18' radius. Comes close on 22".  ( If the front drivers on the back set of drivers was a blind driver it might  and the slot on the front set made better for a little more movement ) I think it would run on 24" radius which I don't have. Would have to find some flex track to try but will probably be apart being re engineered  to try to improve overall  abilities and appearance first.
               
               
                I hope I didn't make any mistakes.  I wish Ray F W or W Jay W were composing this. ( Ray, I was also hoping my computer didn't shut down writing all of this or I would have thrown it out he window ). If I missed anything important or you want to know something specific just ask. The engine will now be taken apart, stripped of paint, re-engineered to run better ( hopefully ) and then painted and decaled. It then can become part of the  "fantasy" end of my collection.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
               
               



              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14568 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers [4 Attachments]
              Jim, I would attach the rear of the front engine to the front of the rear engine with a plate and two screws...  put a smooth plate on the top of the frame of the front engine on a bracket and another smooth plate on the bottom of the boiler for a smooth bearing surface...  or put the smooth plate on the bottom of the boiler and a leaf spring support on top of the front engine to bear up under the bottom of the smooth plate on the boiler.  It must be sprung in order to allow for uneven track so that the rear engine will always sit down on the rails.  To power the front engine would require a set of bearings and a worm in a level position on the top of the frame with a worm shaft projecting to the rear...  You would need the same arrangement on the rear engine with the worm shaft projecting to the front (the middle of the cylinder saddle would have to be removed to make clearance for this shaft) to make a tubing or u-joint connection to the front engine worm shaft (this would best be set to bend at the same place the frames are joined together) and the worm shaft projecting to the rear to connect by tubing to the motor shaft.  You also need a larger motor and very slick running mechanisms in order for this to work well.

              Since the builder did not provide a connection of a steam exhaust pipe for the front engine to the bottom of the smoke box, you could attach bent tubing or a piece of plastic elbow to the bottom of the smoke box and insert the elbow into another tube, allowing for telescoping action as the engine moves from side to side, and attaching the front end of the bent tubing or bent plastic plastic to the top of the cylinders on the front engine.  The rear elbow would be turned upward to the bottom of the smoke box below the smoke stack and the front elbow would be turned downward to attach the the top of the cylinder saddle to simulate an exhaust steam pipe for the front engine.  Exhaust steam pipes should also run from the tops of the cylinders of the rear engine under the running boards to end just below the smoke stack for exhaust steam from the rear cylinders.

              The rectangle on the top of the boiler is the valve turret that was at the rear of the boiler that was spliced to the other boiler.  You will see another like it in front of the cab.

              Have fun...

              Don Staton in Va.
              ====================================
              snipped

              jim heckard wrote:
               

                    Well here are some pictures concerning that odd Mantua 4-4-4-2 engine from Ebay and how it works. I will explain each picture below. I didn't want to take to many and some didn't show because of the black paint, poor lighting and terrible camera man even with great camera.
               
                 Let me state some truths:
                   1   It does run plus backward and forward poorly. ( Explanation to follow why )
                   2   It is one of a kind.
                   3   It wasn't engineered by anyone special. Many could do it and better
                   4   It wasn't worth the money the way it is now
               
                 The pictures I sent

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14569 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
              Hi Don (all),
               
              Rather than two smooth plates, one method I have seen works great is shown here below:
               
               
              photo
               
              What it is is a roller on a pin, which is attached to a spring like arm to the underside of the boiler. It supports the boiler and allows a little cussion while the engine traverses over the rails.
               
              There is a flat plate mounted to the chassis fame bellow, turned such that its narrow edge fits between the two ends of the roller pin.
               
              It is on this custom built brass boiler & cast mantua chassis 2-6-6-2 that I have here:
               

              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 3:56:29 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D.Wanted answers

               

              Jim, I would attach the rear of the front engine to the front of the rear engine with a plate and two screws...  put a smooth plate on the top of the frame of the front engine on a bracket and another smooth plate on the bottom of the boiler for a smooth bearing surface...  or put the smooth plate on the bottom of the boiler and a leaf spring support on top of the front engine to bear up under the bottom of the smooth plate on the boiler.  It must be sprung in order to allow for uneven track so that the rear engine will always sit down on the rails.  To power the front engine would require a set of bearings and a worm in a level position on the top of the frame with a worm shaft projecting to the rear...  You would need the same arrangement on the rear engine with the worm shaft projecting to the front (the middle of the cylinder saddle would have to be removed to make clearance for this shaft) to make a tubing or u-joint connection to the front engine worm shaft (this would best be set to bend at the same place the frames are joined together) and the worm shaft projecting to the rear to connect by tubing to the motor shaft.  You also need a larger motor and very slick running mechanisms in order for this to work well.

              Since the builder did not provide a connection of a steam exhaust pipe for the front engine to the bottom of the smoke box, you could attach bent tubing or a piece of plastic elbow to the bottom of the smoke box and insert the elbow into another tube, allowing for telescoping action as the engine moves from side to side, and attaching the front end of the bent tubing or bent plastic plastic to the top of the cylinders on the front engine.  The rear elbow would be turned upward to the bottom of the smoke box below the smoke stack and the front elbow would be turned downward to attach the the top of the cylinder saddle to simulate an exhaust steam pipe for the front engine.  Exhaust steam pipes should also run from the tops of the cylinders of the rear engine under the running boards to end just below the smoke stack for exhaust steam from the rear cylinders.

              The rectangle on the top of the boiler is the valve turret that was at the rear of the boiler that was spliced to the other boiler.  You will see another like it in front of the cab.

              Have fun...

              Don Staton in Va.
              ============ ========= ========= ======
              snipped

              jim heckard wrote:

               

                    Well here are some pictures concerning that odd Mantua 4-4-4-2 engine from Ebay and how it works. I will explain each picture below. I didn't want to take to many and some didn't show because of the black paint, poor lighting and terrible camera man even with great camera.
               
                 Let me state some truths:
                   1   It does run plus backward and forward poorly. ( Explanation to follow why )
                   2   It is one of a kind.
                   3   It wasn't engineered by anyone special. Many could do it and better
                   4   It wasn't worth the money the way it is now
               
                 The pictures I sent


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14570 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: odd engine modifications
                    As you can see from the picture I already have this odd Mantua modified engine apart and ready to put in the brake fluid to clean. I have found a number of the parts modified to fit.  While to hard to explain each and everyone the back steam chest reworked , a special piece made fitting under the motor having the arms to hold the back end of that valve gear. The front frame modified / reworked especially the under plate holding the drivers . There are other things that I am finding. I will need to get to Dan Bush of Yardbird trains as the heads of the screws holding the main, side and valve gears are almost wore away and were hard to get out.  Nothing I find insurmountable in trying to put it back together in working and good running order.
               
                 I am still confused by what looks to me that the two boiler pieces are not the same because of the diameter difference at the joint. Maybe it as to do with the coke bottle effect but I also see a slight detail difference on top. Not totally sure but enough that I have to go to my Mantua parts book and check each boiler to see if I can match up what I feel is two different boiler pieces .
               
                 I see, but didn't get a chance to fully read, some suggestions. I will get to them later when peace and quiet reigns.
               
                                                                    Jim H
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14571 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: odd engine modifications
              The two turret covers are particularly fetching.
              Bench grinder should fix that.

              Just a later, inexpensive unit, too.
              Plastic tender shell, metal floor, not the die-cast body.

              I thought, all that work, surely it would be dual drive.
              It's really a four-four-FOUR-two.

              Pushing all that around, an English Yardbird might have more tractive effort.

              Get an old Mantua frame mounted gearbox (Version 2), new motor with extended shaft out the front of the worm, rig a shaft and u-joints or tubing, you might get all 4 drivers powered.

              How much did you pay for this?

              Dave


              > As you can see from the picture I already have this odd Mantua modified engine apart and ready to put in the brake fluid to clean. I have found a number of the parts modified to fit. While to hard to explain each and everyone the back steam chest reworked , a special piece made fitting under the motor having the arms to hold the back end of that valve gear. The front frame modified / reworked especially the under plate holding the drivers . There are other things that I am finding. I will need to get to Dan Bush of Yardbird trains as the heads of the screws holding the main, side and valve gears are almost wore away and were hard to get out. Nothing I find insurmountable in trying to put it back together in working and good running order.
              >
              > I am still confused by what looks to me that the two boiler pieces are not the same because of the diameter difference at the joint. Maybe it as to do with the coke bottle effect but I also see a slight detail difference on top. Not totally sure but enough that I have to go to my Mantua parts book and check each boiler to see if I can match up what I feel is two different boiler pieces .
              >
              > I see, but didn't get a chance to fully read, some suggestions. I will get to them later when peace and quiet reigns.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14572 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Basket case rebuild
               
               
                 Hi Dave ( trainsnwrcs ),
               
                   Quickly I just wanted to show you these pictures of a rebuilt basket case I did. I am mostly a vintage HO collector but sometimes find things that interest me to see what I can do with a basketcase ( junk perhaps ).
               
                   It is this type of rebuild I am going to TRY to do with the Mantua 4-4-4-2 modification that is basically a $140 junker right now. I hope to make it into more then just a pile of Mantua parts. Wish me luck. I probably will need it.
               
                                                                         Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14573 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Answers to odd I D Wanted
              Hi Jim,  Facinating modified engine, I have been following the posts and photos.  It will be a much better engine when you are done with the rebuild and wheel painting.  The only item I have that is remotely similar was made from a combination of two powered Mantua eight-coupled chassis. The superstructure is completely scratchbuilt of brass as a prototypical scale model of an Erie Angus-type 0-8-8-0 camelback.  Will try to get the photos scanned for posting.  I purchased it about 15 years ago from the builder, who said it made the rounds on several North Jersey club layouts back when.  It runs well but I have to cure a short and find another set of valve gear.  W. Jay W.


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 11:23:45 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Answers to odd I D Wanted

               

              Hi All,
               
                          I received that odd modified Mantua engine and am sending a quick message for now. Later I will send pictures after I find out how it runs, tracks and radius it will take.  To those that hadn't looked go to ebay item  130410062933 while the pictures still there and read prior post about this thread.
               
                  We all know the back set of drivers is rigid. The front set DOES pivot on the shiny screw that has been discussed and goes up through the front drivers, frame and is attached to the boiler.  Look at the good side view picture and you can see a wider silver piece between and atop the drivers of the front set as to where it attaches to the boiler. The front drivers with its frame up to the pilot including the leading truck are all one as thought.    There is some side play ( A SLOT made of about a 1/4" ) in this entire piece ( front set driver piece ) where the screw goes through.
               
               There is NO hinge between the the front and back set of drivers. The back end of the front set swings freely in front of the back steam chest
               
                  As for the splice of the boilers. Not as nice as we thought. The shadows of the pictures limited seeing where it is. I will try to describe.
               
                   Go to the top of the boiler almost directly above the center of the back driver in the back set, about 3/4 of an inch in front of the bell and just at the back of that square box is the jointure line.Really not the best mesh we thought. At the point joined  the back portion and sides of the boiler are  wider / higher by about 1/4.
               
                  I will run the engine to try to determine how well it runs, how good it tracks and what radius. I will then try to take clear close-up pictures of all of this and send. Keep this message to go with the follow up pictures. The modifications are , in my opinion , nothing spectacular or engineered that many on the site could not perform.
               
                  Check all back emails about this engine to see who was the closest in guessing the facts. More to follow later.
               
                                                                          Jim H
               
                 

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14574 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Right basket case rebuild pictures
               
               
              Hi Dave ( trainsnwrcs ),
               
                 My apologies. In my hurry to go eat ( wife calling ) and after to many emails I sent the wrong pictures about the basketcase rebuild I was describing to you.  Here are the right pictures to go with my previous message to you.
               
                                           Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14575 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers [4 Attachments]
              Jim,

              If I can of help..........

              I'd like to see this model become fully functional. 

              I can precisely mill brackets to allow the front engine to swivel from the rear of it's sub-frame.

              I can help you with and make some locked-in Mantua worm mounts to anchor standard Mantua worms over those drive gears, allowing you to link the front and read engines with working universal drive shafts. I've seen this done before and can make them for my Tyco/Mantua Pacifics and Mikes in the process. Some creativity would be needed to attach a motor. But that's never a difficult chore. 

              A typical can motor might be a good replacement for the older Mantua.

              And some suggestions........

              You can sheet metal over that Wasp-waisted section of boiler to make it into a more prototypical straight section. 

              You could treat that square hump to simulate an additional sandbox, or remove that 'blister' with files. You could make the blister look believable as a shop add-on, additional sandbox.

              You can treat the awkward  looking walkway as the edge of the walkway support system and overlay it with some nice looking safety-plate that overhangs the support base by just a bit, making it look like it's a framed support structure under the checker plate.  Plastruct has some rather nice looking easy to work with plastic safety plate that isn't painfully priced.

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              On Jul 21, 2010, at 1:52 PM, jim heckard wrote:

              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below] 

                    Well here are some pictures concerning that odd Mantua 4-4-4-2 engine from Ebay and how it works. I will explain each picture below. I didn't want to take to many and some didn't show because of the black paint, poor lighting and terrible camera man even with great camera.
               
                 Let me state some truths:
                   1   It does run plus backward and forward poorly. ( Explanation to follow why )
                   2   It is one of a kind.
                   3   It wasn't engineered by anyone special. Many could do it and better
                   4   It wasn't worth the money the way it is now
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14576 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
                 Hi all,
               
                    I am going to try to answer a number of questions all at the same time. Hope I miss no one. To many Emails today and brain fog ( mistakes )will take over . Also huge thunderstorms bearing down on us from the north.
               
                    I put $140 plus shipping out on this engine. I had to find out how exactly it worked. While it turns out to be a poor buy as engine doesn't meet any expectations I'm not totally disappointed. I am going to rebuild this Phoenix and make it into something worth while. The time working on it will not be a waste. Using the old brain to do it will be good for me and I honestly think I can accomplish something.
               
                   The only bad part is I spent the money on it just as an Ebay item I want   Rivarossi 4-4-2 streamlined Hiawatha   came up for sale. ( Big bucks will be bid on this I believe )
               
                   As for a connection between the front and back sets of drivers. It is extremely hard to tell if there ever was even though some holes are present. I tend to believe not because of the way parts there are shaped and because of the one really modified steam chest I talked about.
               
                    Will I attach a hinge / connection  Not sure. I really want to try to better shape ( a radius for the slot )and slightly extend the slot that is here and see if I could get the engine to work this way. I'm intrigued at the possibility of getting it to track right and make at least a minimum of 24" radius.
               
                     It will not happen overnight but I will "plug" away at it. In this way I will get hours of enjoyment out of trying.
               
                                                                                             Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D.Wanted answers

               

              Jim,

              Does it look to you like at one time the creator of this loco attempted to connect the front and rear engines with a short, too short, drawbar? Picture 2 shows what appear to be 2 small holes, one on each engine, just a short distance from one another.




              --
              Regards,
              Walter

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14577 From: erieberk Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
              Jim, You did a fine job composing this post, it's very understandable. The photos you posted later help too. I see you have a lot of suggestions to mull over. Well, at least you have a project now, to work on -- which should keep you occupied for a bit.

              I think Dave has one of the better suggestions, in using a Mantua gearbox with the extension out the front of it to install a length of rubber tube -- for running the front engine. I guess you'd need a second gearbox for the front engine to accept the rubber hose.

              When you first mentioned that the hole under the shiney screw was slotted, I thought that might have solved some of your problem for tracking, but as the phioto shows, that slot ios not nearly wide enough to help very much. You see the slot in the pilot truck -- you;d need a slot nearly as wide as that for the drivers -- and then, that's still not the best set up to have there.

              Some of the guys mentioned pivoting the front engine off of the rear one, and I'm in full agreement with that. If you don't mind yet another suggestion, I would get another rear frame to replace this present one -- a frame that has metal out in front of the rear engine's cyclinder block. You can then trim it back just ahead of the rear cycinder block and drill a pivot hole through it at that point. Then, with a hole drilled to the rear of the second driver pair in the front engine, fabricate a drawbar type of connection so that you have the needed pivot point at the extremity of the front engine. Still have to work on powering the front mechanism though, but at least that's half the battle. Check out a Bowser catalog too, for ideas of what to use for power transfer between engines. I like Sean's idea of the roller and straight-edge. Something klike that would go well, where the shiney screw is now, but directly half way in between the two driver pairs. If (when) you get the front truck powered, this would have the front half of the boiler's weight right where you'd need it best, for greatest traction. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well here are some pictures concerning that odd Mantua 4-4-4-2 engine from Ebay and how it works. I will explain each picture below. I didn't want to take to many and some didn't show because of the black paint, poor lighting and terrible camera man even with great camera.
              >
              > Let me state some truths:
              > 1 It does run plus backward and forward poorly. ( Explanation to follow why )
              > 2 It is one of a kind.
              > 3 It wasn't engineered by anyone special. Many could do it and better
              > 4 It wasn't worth the money the way it is now
              >
              > The pictures I sent
              >
              > Picture 1 The splice and where it is. It is just behind the square box on top of the boiler. ( I'm to dumb to know what it's called.) It's not that well done nor totally invisible. Black paint hides a lot. If you look closely at the walkway you can see the joint. As to what the boilers are. I'm sure Mantua but I can't understand the joint in this sense. The walkways are even looking from the side but the back portion of the boiler splice is roughly an 1/8 th " in the diameter difference as you follow it up from the walkway around the top and down to the other walkway. If the same two types of boilers were used I can't understand this " step up" look at the joint.
              >
              > Picture 2 There is no hinge / connection of any type between the back and forward sets of drivers. The front set just swivels between the back steam chest which you can see is not filed to good.
              >
              > Picture 3 The front set of drivers is all one piece including the frame up to the pilot including the lead truck and pivots on that bright screw with the washer . ( Later when I tried to test what radius this engine would run on I took off the washer for more movement without any success. Slot needs work)
              >
              > Picture 4. This one entire piece for the front "moving" drivers showing the POORLY cut out slot. The top part of this that goes against the boiler is a piece of clear Lucite plastic that is cut out better having a slight radius in the slot . I feel if the bottom better matched the radius cut in the plastic it would help track better.
              >
              > Running, tracking, etc. :
              >
              > It has one normal Mantua open frame motor. It does not have enough power to pull 8 plastic Marx HO cars without slipping badly. The motor would have to be more powerful or a second motor added to the front drivers ( if possible ). I did notice that the front driver on the back set of drivers does not sit down on the track fully. I think some good could be accomplished by filing a little of the top of the slotted Lucite plastic piece I talked about that is used as a slotted spacer for the front set of drivers. I believe this would let all the 4 back set drivers engage the track for more traction / pulling power. ( Guess right now )
              >
              > It will not run on 18' radius. Comes close on 22". ( If the front drivers on the back set of drivers was a blind driver it might and the slot on the front set made better for a little more movement ) I think it would run on 24" radius which I don't have. Would have to find some flex track to try but will probably be apart being re engineered to try to improve overall abilities and appearance first.
              >
              >
              > I hope I didn't make any mistakes. I wish Ray F W or W Jay W were composing this. ( Ray, I was also hoping my computer didn't shut down writing all of this or I would have thrown it out he window ). If I missed anything important or you want to know something specific just ask. The engine will now be taken apart, stripped of paint, re-engineered to run better ( hopefully ) and then painted and decaled. It then can become part of the "fantasy" end of my collection.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14578 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Not sure how far to go
              To Don S and Mike B,
               
                 I appreciate your comments. I am going to clean everything up to bare metal, find or buy some small Mantua screws for the rods/valve gear and take stock as I decide how far I want to go with this. I might have to assemble it without paint fiddling and playing with it till I get something that works and then take apart and finish off with paint and decals possible. Still thinking one bigger motor ( actually thinking of trying an old Varney V-3 ) , possible driving the front dummy drivers or two motors which I doubt no room for. I just don't no for sure.
               
                 I am going to print out both of your suggestions and file them for now.   Thanks.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14579 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
              On Jul 21, 2010, at 5:55 PM, jim heckard wrote:
              ..............
              > The only bad part is I spent the money on it just as an Ebay
              > item I want Rivarossi 4-4-2 streamlined Hiawatha came up for
              > sale. ( Big bucks will be bid on this I believe )

              Jim, I wouldn't sweat missing on the Riv 4-4-2, Milw-A

              For I have two of the original undec shell-sets.

              Now I wouldn't consider selling any. But I wouldn't mind making a mold
              and casting some dups for myself and send one your way. Perhaps they
              should be fictional numbers 5-8 ??

              I've long considered redoing some Mantua Pacific carcasses into proper
              Milw-A configs; even if I have to make new frames for the drive parts
              to best suit the old Riv body. I'd do the frames with a cnc-mill, so
              could rather easily make more than I'd need.

              I was just looking at one of the recent Hiawatha books last night and
              noticed the picture of the evaluation models of the proposed and not
              produced, differently streamlined Milw-A 4-4-2's

              It would be a kick to mod one of the Riv undec castings to match the
              never built, original proposal design........ and mold some of
              those!! As in 'The story of the Hiawatha', by Charles H. Bilty, 1985
              Milwaukee Road Railfans Association; pages 13,15, and 16.

              Page 13 actually shows a possible 4-4-4 version............ A Hiawatha
              Jubilee ???

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14580 From: jim heckard Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
              Hi Mike,
               
                  Thanks for your offer.  I guess I am to into vintage collecting and wanting as close to original item as possible that my focus is getting a factory painted Rivarossi 4-4-2 streamlined Hiawatha for my collection..
               
                  However I am interested in  the black with red strip streamlined 4-4-2 Hiawatha type engine shown in the Rivarossi Memories web site that for making it I would be interested.
               
                  When things calm down ( son's wedding Aug 7th ) I would like to talk to you more about this. Am I right that you can create both an engine and tender shell like the Hiawatha ?
               
                                                                           Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 7:22 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D.Wanted answers

               

              On Jul 21, 2010, at 5:55 PM, jim heckard wrote:
              ..............
              > The only bad part is I spent the money on it just as an Ebay
              > item I want Rivarossi 4-4-2 streamlined Hiawatha came up for
              > sale. ( Big bucks will be bid on this I believe )

              Jim, I wouldn't sweat missing on the Riv 4-4-2, Milw-A

              For I have two of the original undec shell-sets.

              Now I wouldn't consider selling any. But I wouldn't mind making a mold
              and casting some dups for myself and send one your way. Perhaps they
              should be fictional numbers 5-8 ??

              I've long considered redoing some Mantua Pacific carcasses into proper
              Milw-A configs; even if I have to make new frames for the drive parts
              to best suit the old Riv body. I'd do the frames with a cnc-mill, so
              could rather easily make more than I'd need.

              I was just looking at one of the recent Hiawatha books last night and
              noticed the picture of the evaluation models of the proposed and not
              produced, differently streamlined Milw-A 4-4-2's

              It would be a kick to mod one of the Riv undec castings to match the
              never built, original proposal design........ and mold some of
              those!! As in 'The story of the Hiawatha', by Charles H. Bilty, 1985
              Milwaukee Road Railfans Association; pages 13,15, and 16.

              Page 13 actually shows a possible 4-4-4 version............ A Hiawatha
              Jubilee ???

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14581 From: Mike Bauers Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
              Hi Jim,

              Yes, I did get hold of two sets of both the locomotive and tender
              shells. I've been meaning to work with them for -so- long........

              I'm thinking modeled 4-4-4 proposed versions as numbers 5-8 would
              bulge some eyes in the crowd.

              I also have the gear to make good decals for them. As a further step,
              I could even make die-cut self-adhesive reflective metal, chrome nose
              shields for the models.

              I definitely have to gather up usable Tyco/Mantua 4-6-2 mechs when the
              Fall swap meets start-up.

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              On Jul 21, 2010, at 6:47 PM, jim heckard wrote:
              >
              > Hi Mike,
              >
              > Thanks for your offer. I guess I am to into vintage collecting
              > and wanting as close to original item as possible that my focus is
              > getting a factory painted Rivarossi 4-4-2 streamlined Hiawatha for
              > my collection..
              >
              > However I am interested in the black with red strip streamlined
              > 4-4-2 Hiawatha type engine shown in the Rivarossi Memories web site
              > that for making it I would be interested.
              >
              > When things calm down ( son's wedding Aug 7th ) I would like to
              > talk to you more about this. Am I right that you can create both an
              > engine and tender shell like the Hiawatha ?
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Mike Bauers
              > On Jul 21, 2010, at 5:55 PM, jim heckard wrote:
              > ..............
              > > The only bad part is I spent the money on it just as an Ebay
              > > item I want Rivarossi 4-4-2 streamlined Hiawatha came up for
              > > sale. ( Big bucks will be bid on this I believe )
              >
              > Jim, I wouldn't sweat missing on the Riv 4-4-2, Milw-A
              >
              > For I have two of the original undec shell-sets.
              >
              > Now I wouldn't consider selling any. But I wouldn't mind making a mold
              > and casting some dups for myself and send one your way. Perhaps they
              > should be fictional numbers 5-8 ??..............
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14582 From: John H Date: 7/21/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
              Jim,

              In order to power both engines using Mantua parts you're going to have to go modern....sort of.

              Neither of the Mantua Mikado or Pacific worm housings will work as they were all made for an angled drive shaft. In order to power both using one motor, and I don't see how you would use two motors on this beast, you need gear boxes that are set up for drive shafts that are level and parallel to the frame. Or go to a NWSL HI-LO set up which would require much work to install.

              I would use two Mantua articulated logger gear boxes. I have installed one in the 0-6-0 I'm building. I had to drill two holes for mounting and then shim the gear box up to get the proper gear mesh but that isn't that big a deal really. One thing that MAY be a problem is if the teeth of the idler gear in the gear boxes will mesh with Pacific axle gear at all. It did on my switcher with a 1/16th (if I remember correctly) shim but that is a Mantua 0-4-0 Shifter gear. However I think most Mantua locos used the same worm on t he motor shafts so it may be ok. The parts are all available from Dan at Yardbird Trains.

              With the need for a motor that sits level you should have no problem finding a can motor to fit.

              Speaking of the Mantua articulated's, if you have one, take it apart and check out their method of connecting the engines frames. Also the way they place some of the weight on the front set of drivers. I think parts used there may be adaptable to this loco also.

              Using sheet brass to make a straight section would be one way of fixing the boiler and may make for a very good looking engine that is a tad different. Other than that I would use a couple of Mantua Mike boilers.

              John Hagen
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14583 From: jim heckard Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Fw: I.D.Wanted answers
               

              Hi John H
               
                 Thanks for the response and ideas. Like others I am receiving I will print out and keep a record of them all for reference.
               I am still mulling so many things over. Even considering time as to how deep I want to get involved and money. Since this is a fun project, outside my vintage collection I have to decide a plan of action. Something will definitely be done.
               
               My first inclination is to re power this engine to make it strong enough to leave the front set of drivers as dummies just the way it came. ( Room in the boiler / cab is main concern.)  If I can do this and leave the front sent free wheeling then I have to work on making this front set track and take a decent radius. While there are a number of ways to accomplish that I am sometimes to set in my ways. I want to TRY to make this work using the pivot point where it is (even though not the best ).
               
                My stubborn, sometimes fanatical, mechanical, machinist, maintenance background in play.
               
                I will make a "decent" working, running engine out of this eventually.   No hurry, no set time frame. It also has to fit in between my vintage collecting, rebuilding and restoration of same and my new in progress layout. 
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
               
               
               
               

              Jim,

              In order to power both engines using Mantua parts you're going to have to go modern....sort of.

              Neither of the Mantua Mikado or Pacific worm housings will work as they were all made for an angled drive shaft. In order to power both using one motor, and I don't see how you would use two motors on this beast, you need gear boxes that are set up for drive shafts that are level and parallel to the frame. Or go to a NWSL HI-LO set up which would require much work to install.

              I would use two Mantua articulated logger gear boxes. I have installed one in the 0-6-0 I'm building. I had to drill two holes for mounting and then shim the gear box up to get the proper gear mesh but that isn't that big a deal really. One thing that MAY be a problem is if the teeth of the idler gear in the gear boxes will mesh with Pacific axle gear at all. It did on my switcher with a 1/16th (if I remember correctly) shim but that is a Mantua 0-4-0 Shifter gear. However I think most Mantua locos used the same worm on t he motor shafts so it may be ok. The parts are all available from Dan at Yardbird Trains.

              With the need for a motor that sits level you should have no problem finding a can motor to fit.

              Speaking of the Mantua articulated's, if you have one, take it apart and check out their method of connecting the engines frames. Also the way they place some of the weight on the front set of drivers. I think parts used there may be adaptable to this loco also.

              Using sheet brass to make a straight section would be one way of fixing the boiler and may make for a very good looking engine that is a tad different. Other than that I would use a couple of Mantua Mike boilers.

              John Hagen


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14584 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
              Hi Jim H.,
               
              The Erie 0-8-8-0 I have that was built on two Mantua mechnisms has an interesting method of articulation which you might also think about.  The front and read chassis are not linked at their frames.  Instead, both power chassis are linked by a flat brass bar attched to the top of each motor frame (with a small wedge shaped spacer between to even things up), the front motor chassis is free to swivel.  The top bar is in turn attached to the locomotive superstructure by one screw from the boiler top near the rear of the camelback cab. 
               
              W. Way W.


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 6:55:33 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D.Wanted answers

               

                 Hi all,
               
                    I am going to try to answer a number of questions all at the same time. Hope I miss no one. To many Emails today and brain fog ( mistakes )will take over . Also huge thunderstorms bearing down on us from the north.
               
                    I put $140 plus shipping out on this engine. I had to find out how exactly it worked. While it turns out to be a poor buy as engine doesn't meet any expectations I'm not totally disappointed. I am going to rebuild this Phoenix and make it into something worth while. The time working on it will not be a waste. Using the old brain to do it will be good for me and I honestly think I can accomplish something.
               
                   The only bad part is I spent the money on it just as an Ebay item I want   Rivarossi 4-4-2 streamlined Hiawatha   came up for sale. ( Big bucks will be bid on this I believe )
               
                   As for a connection between the front and back sets of drivers. It is extremely hard to tell if there ever was even though some holes are present. I tend to believe not because of the way parts there are shaped and because of the one really modified steam chest I talked about.
               
                    Will I attach a hinge / connection  Not sure. I really want to try to better shape ( a radius for the slot )and slightly extend the slot that is here and see if I could get the engine to work this way. I'm intrigued at the possibility of getting it to track right and make at least a minimum of 24" radius.
               
                     It will not happen overnight but I will "plug" away at it. In this way I will get hours of enjoyment out of trying.
               
                                                                                             Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D.Wanted answers

               

              Jim,

              Does it look to you like at one time the creator of this loco attempted to connect the front and rear engines with a short, too short, drawbar? Picture 2 shows what appear to be 2 small holes, one on each engine, just a short distance from one another.




              --
              Regards,
              Walter


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14585 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Right basket case rebuild pictures [2 Attachments]
              Great job, Jim!  That little "basket case is now a sharp "Forney-type anyone would be proud to have in their collection!  W. Jay W.


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 5:50:00 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Right basket case rebuild pictures [2 Attachments]

               

               
               
              Hi Dave ( trainsnwrcs ),
               
                 My apologies. In my hurry to go eat ( wife calling ) and after to many emails I sent the wrong pictures about the basketcase rebuild I was describing to you.  Here are the right pictures to go with my previous message to you.
               
                                           Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14586 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              Hi All,

              I just picked one of these up. Never heard of one of these before and was wondering if anyone had ever seen one. I have no idea of the age, but it came with a group of black and red (McGinnis Scheme) New Haven RDC's that i purchased. I know the McGinnis scheme was produced for only one year (the first year) of the Athearn RDC's. I collect the New haven and this tower just came with it.

              Thanks. I will post pictures with my first reply.


              Sean
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14587 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              Ok, here are the photos:
               
              It was part of this listing... which I stole (so to speek)
               
               
               
               
               
                
               

              Any ideas as to the vintage? I know the McGinnis paint scheme was very early, possibly late 50's.

               

              Thanks guys!

               

              Sean

               

              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!




              From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 12:00:21 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader

               

              Hi All,

              I just picked one of these up. Never heard of one of these before and was wondering if anyone had ever seen one. I have no idea of the age, but it came with a group of black and red (McGinnis Scheme) New Haven RDC's that i purchased. I know the McGinnis scheme was produced for only one year (the first year) of the Athearn RDC's. I collect the New haven and this tower just came with it.

              Thanks. I will post pictures with my first reply.

              Sean


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14588 From: Walter Bayer Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14589 From: Walter Bayer Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14590 From: Wobbly913 Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              They are not real common but they do come up on ebay from time to time, I have two of them in my Athearn accumulation.
              Since they came in the red and white box that Athearn seems to have used mostly in the 1950's I would think that they were made then.
              I also have eight of the McGinnis  RDC's in my accumulation of rubber band drive stuff.

              Wobbly913

              --- On Thu, 7/22/10, 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 9:00 AM

              Hi All,

              I just picked one of these up. Never heard of one of these before and was wondering if anyone had ever seen one. I have no idea of the age, but it came with a group of black and red (McGinnis Scheme) New Haven RDC's that i purchased. I know the McGinnis scheme was produced for only one year (the first year) of the Athearn RDC's. I collect the New haven and this tower just came with it.

              Thanks. I will post pictures with my first reply.


              Sean



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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14591 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              Sean, the book is incorrect on the RDC colors and passenger car colors.  The NH silver scheme came first on the RDC cars and silver with the orange stripe on the 5-piece stainless passenger cars.  Then came the one piece passenger cars in the same color.  Somewhere around 1962 the colors of both were switched to the red/white/black scheme and later switched back to the original scheme.  This came at the same time as the color scheme was switched on the New Haven F7 from the white to the later scheme with the added black.
               
              Brad Smith (New Haven collector)
              Franklin, WI
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14592 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              Well,
               
              That is awesome to know. Thanks Brad!!
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "corlissbs@..." <corlissbs@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 1:04:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader

               

              Sean, the book is incorrect on the RDC colors and passenger car colors.  The NH silver scheme came first on the RDC cars and silver with the orange stripe on the 5-piece stainless passenger cars.  Then came the one piece passenger cars in the same color.  Somewhere around 1962 the colors of both were switched to the red/white/black scheme and later switched back to the original scheme.  This came at the same time as the color scheme was switched on the New Haven F7 from the white to the later scheme with the added black.
               
              Brad Smith (New Haven collector)
              Franklin, WI

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14593 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              The books have errors and omissions about the Athearn Hustler colors and numbers too.
               
              Brad Smith
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14594 From: Nelson B Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Not sure how far to go
              Jim, one thing that concerns me is the axle cover on the front driver set, which for some reason had large chunks cut out of the front and rear, making it impossible to tap for new screws. It looks like the only thing holding it in place is the big pivot screw, so you'd have to cut down a new one.

              I really don't think depending on the front set of drivers to slide on the lucite bearing, even with a proper slot cut into the frame, is a good way of articulating this. My guess is there would be too much friction, especially given the weight of the boiler. Even if the slotted mount worked flawlessly, at best it would be like a diesel with a rigid rear truck. As others have said, a hinge between the driver sets seems like the best option.

              That little Forney engine you rescued is really cool. Whoever built it used the motor and mount from a Rivarossi tender drive 4-4-0.

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > To Don S and Mike B,
              >
              > I appreciate your comments. I am going to clean everything up to bare metal, find or buy some small Mantua screws for the rods/valve gear and take stock as I decide how far I want to go with this. I might have to assemble it without paint fiddling and playing with it till I get something that works and then take apart and finish off with paint and decals possible. Still thinking one bigger motor ( actually thinking of trying an old Varney V-3 ) , possible driving the front dummy drivers or two motors which I doubt no room for. I just don't no for sure.
              >
              > I am going to print out both of your suggestions and file them for now. Thanks.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14595 From: jim heckard Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: I.D.Wanted answers
              
               Jay,
               
                   Another possibility. Will file it for possible use later.
               
                                                                     Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 11:14 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D.Wanted answers

               

              Hi Jim H.,
               
              The Erie 0-8-8-0 I have that was built on two Mantua mechnisms has an interesting method of articulation which you might also think about.  The front and read chassis are not linked at their frames.  Instead, both power chassis are linked by a flat brass bar attched to the top of each motor frame (with a small wedge shaped spacer between to even things up), the front motor chassis is free to swivel.  The top bar is in turn attached to the locomotive superstructure by one screw from the boiler top near the rear of the camelback cab. 
               
              W. Way W.


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 6:55:33 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D.Wanted answers

               

                 Hi all,
               
                    I am going to try to answer a number of questions all at the same time. Hope I miss no one. To many Emails today and brain fog ( mistakes )will take over . Also huge thunderstorms bearing down on us from the north.
               
                    I put $140 plus shipping out on this engine. I had to find out how exactly it worked. While it turns out to be a poor buy as engine doesn't meet any expectations I'm not totally disappointed. I am going to rebuild this Phoenix and make it into something worth while. The time working on it will not be a waste. Using the old brain to do it will be good for me and I honestly think I can accomplish something.
               
                   The only bad part is I spent the money on it just as an Ebay item I want   Rivarossi 4-4-2 streamlined Hiawatha   came up for sale. ( Big bucks will be bid on this I believe )
               
                   As for a connection between the front and back sets of drivers. It is extremely hard to tell if there ever was even though some holes are present. I tend to believe not because of the way parts there are shaped and because of the one really modified steam chest I talked about.
               
                    Will I attach a hinge / connection  Not sure. I really want to try to better shape ( a radius for the slot )and slightly extend the slot that is here and see if I could get the engine to work this way. I'm intrigued at the possibility of getting it to track right and make at least a minimum of 24" radius.
               
                     It will not happen overnight but I will "plug" away at it. In this way I will get hours of enjoyment out of trying.
               
                                                                                             Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] I.D.Wanted answers

               

              Jim,

              Does it look to you like at one time the creator of this loco attempted to connect the front and rear engines with a short, too short, drawbar? Picture 2 shows what appear to be 2 small holes, one on each engine, just a short distance from one another.




              --
              Regards,
              Walter


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14596 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              Attachments :
              I believe this was actually the vary same model.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 11:10 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader


              Ok, here are the photos:

              It was part of this listing... which I stole (so to speek)

              4 Athearn HO trains & 1 Hopper Car Loader w/box
              4 Athearn HO trains & 1 Hopper Car Loader w/box
              4 Athearn HO trains & 1 Hopper Car Loader w/box






              Any ideas as to the vintage? I know the McGinnis paint scheme was very
              early,
              possibly late 50's.

              Thanks guys!

              Sean

              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14597 From: jim heckard Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Not sure how far to go
              Hi Nelson,
               
                   You are right about the way the one axle cover plate is chopped up. It is only held in the middle by one very short flat head screw. The big pivot screw just rides on it, doesn't hold the plate in any way. I already have contacted Dan Bush / Yardbird Trains about the availability of getting a new one plus other parts. It concerns me also as it is  weak in the condition it is in. Also if I go the route of connecting the two drive sets together ( hinge ) there is some meat there to work with.
               
                   I'm still debating how to finally work this front articulation. One thing I have thought of is to replace that Lucite spacer block with a piece of Teflon hoping the oiliness in it will cut down on the friction of the boiler riding on it. For a 24" radius track and with the slot it doesn't really required much movement. ( have to think about any S type movement too.) I am in that try it, test it type of mode. If it doesn't work the hinge connection would be the next option.
               
                 Your are right about that  pre Forney basket case having a Rivarossi motor ( with a solid elongated shaft)  and gear box that had brass bearings supporting the worm gear at the end probably being from a tender driven 4-4-0.The drive is a Mantua 0-4-0 with a home made metal plate attached it to mount the motor. The boiler,stack , headlight assembly was brass that I added details to and the cab /coal hopper was a hand made white plastic partially started. I just saw some potential in the pieces. Trial and error and a nice looking working rebuild. 
               
                   Exactly what I hope to do with this new purchase.
               
                                            Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson B
              Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 2:25 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Not sure how far to go

               

              Jim, one thing that concerns me is the axle cover on the front driver set, which for some reason had large chunks cut out of the front and rear, making it impossible to tap for new screws. It looks like the only thing holding it in place is the big pivot screw, so you'd have to cut down a new one.

              I really don't think depending on the front set of drivers to slide on the lucite bearing, even with a proper slot cut into the frame, is a good way of articulating this. My guess is there would be too much friction, especially given the weight of the boiler. Even if the slotted mount worked flawlessly, at best it would be like a diesel with a rigid rear truck. As others have said, a hinge between the driver sets seems like the best option.

              That little Forney engine you rescued is really cool. Whoever built it used the motor and mount from a Rivarossi tender drive 4-4-0.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > To Don S and Mike B,
              >
              > I appreciate your comments. I am going to clean everything up to bare metal, find or buy some small Mantua screws for the rods/valve gear and take stock as I decide how far I want to go with this. I might have to assemble it without paint fiddling and playing with it till I get something that works and then take apart and finish off with paint and decals possible. Still thinking one bigger motor ( actually thinking of trying an old Varney V-3 ) , possible driving the front dummy drivers or two motors which I doubt no room for. I just don't no for sure.
              >
              > I am going to print out both of your suggestions and file them for now. Thanks.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14598 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              Are you sure it's Athearn? I don't recall Athearn doing a loader--they
              didn't have an operating hopper to go with it. I recall it as Ulrich. How
              about a photo?

              The Ulrich I recall had a wheel inside with four hopper bins that would dump
              into cars pushed below. gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "69_Mustang_Man" <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:00 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader


              > Hi All,
              >
              > I just picked one of these up. Never heard of one of these before and was
              > wondering if anyone had ever seen one. I have no idea of the age, but it
              > came with a group of black and red (McGinnis Scheme) New Haven RDC's that
              > i purchased. I know the McGinnis scheme was produced for only one year
              > (the first year) of the Athearn RDC's. I collect the New haven and this
              > tower just came with it.
              >
              > Thanks. I will post pictures with my first reply.
              >
              >
              > Sean
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14599 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              
                 OK--that's the one I recalled being by Ulrich.  I had one back in the fifties.  gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 9:10 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader

              Ok, here are the photos:
               
              It was part of this listing... which I stole (so to speek)
               
               
               
               
               
                
               

              Any ideas as to the vintage? I know the McGinnis paint scheme was very early, possibly late 50's.

               

              Thanks guys!

               

              Sean

               

              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!




              From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 12:00:21 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader

               

              Hi All,

              I just picked one of these up. Never heard of one of these before and was wondering if anyone had ever seen one. I have no idea of the age, but it came with a group of black and red (McGinnis Scheme) New Haven RDC's that i purchased. I know the McGinnis scheme was produced for only one year (the first year) of the Athearn RDC's. I collect the New haven and this tower just came with it.

              Thanks. I will post pictures with my first reply.

              Sean


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14600 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              Athearn bought the Ulrich coal loader in about 1961.  I would have to check my catalogs.  Same loader, just an Athearn box.  I have one built and found a NIB one in an antique shop.  Will probably Ebay the NIB one.
               
              Brad Smith
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14601 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              It was things like that that drove me to O Scale back in 1959--the trainset market was taking over HO--had trouble getting anything suitable for scale use in HO  Lionel and American Flyer were moving into the HO market.  gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 1:40 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader

              Athearn bought the Ulrich coal loader in about 1961.  I would have to check my catalogs.  Same loader, just an Athearn box.  I have one built and found a NIB one in an antique shop.  Will probably Ebay the NIB one.
               
              Brad Smith
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14602 From: jim heckard Date: 7/23/2010
              Subject: The red is gone
              Attachments :
               

               
               
                   Got started on a my big project to make a running engine out of that 4-4-4-2 engine. Finished a couple of steps of which there will be many
               
                 Step 1     Disassemble engine and tender.
                 Step 2     Clean of the old paint especially the red wheels and trucks. Still haven't gotten all the red off the pilot. Tough stuff.
                                Haven't tried to clean off boiler as not sure what is holding pieces together. Don't know if brake fluid will cause problem
                 Step 3     File and clean up places that were done poorly. Fill in areas with body putty that need it.
                 Step 4     Ordering a few Mantua replacement parts especially some running gear screws
                 Step 5     In a holding pattern deciding how exactly to proceed and how  far to go detail wise. Will be some trial and error in 
                                this step trying different things. ( I'm taking into consideration many ideas offered.)
               
               
                  I like Step 5 because if nothing happens I can always say I contemplating the situation.
               
                                                                    Jim H
               
               
               
               
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14603 From: jim heckard Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Progress and Questions
               
               

                    I'm sending a couple of pictures to show progress on the odd 4-4-4-2 Mantua modification I'm reworking and to ask a few questions.
               
                First picture is of the extended boiler I just got cleaned of paint. Was sitting down to pick left over paint out of cracks, corners and crevices. You can now see better now where the jointure was made. Really not that bad. I will have to fill in and file on the walk ways while I decide if I want to fill in the step of the boiler and take out that coke bottle effect. That is where the questions come in.
               
                Second picture shows you a close up of the boiler joint that is tight and even. I am looking for something to fill in the step. I normally us an epoxy but is hard to file. I know there is a green modelers putty in a tube. Can anyone give me the name ? Also I live an hour fifteen minutes drive from the nearest hobby store ( in any direction ). Does anyone know where I could order it by mail ?
               
                  The last picture shows you inside the boiler and you can see what ever was used to join the pieces of boiler together squeezed out. When I cleaned the paint of the boiler with brake fluid I was worried how it might affect what was used. It is strong whatever it is. Unless it is also pinned I would have a hard time snapping it in half. Hard to pick with a metal blade. Definitely stronger then solder. To me it looks like a type of liquid metal but I had never heard they had this type of strength. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions what it might be ?
               
                                                                 Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14604 From: George Frey Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]
              jim i belive its caled squadron "green " putty it also comes in red i dont know if it co,es by mail but do a google search for squardon and it should come up.
              hope this helps you, and good luck on your project
               

              George Frey                                                      

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 10:23:34 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]

               

               
               

                    I'm sending a couple of pictures to show progress on the odd 4-4-4-2 Mantua modification I'm reworking and to ask a few questions.
               
                First picture is of the extended boiler I just got cleaned of paint. Was sitting down to pick left over paint out of cracks, corners and crevices. You can now see better now where the jointure was made. Really not that bad. I will have to fill in and file on the walk ways while I decide if I want to fill in the step of the boiler and take out that coke bottle effect. That is where the questions come in.
               
                Second picture shows you a close up of the boiler joint that is tight and even. I am looking for something to fill in the step. I normally us an epoxy but is hard to file. I know there is a green modelers putty in a tube. Can anyone give me the name ? Also I live an hour fifteen minutes drive from the nearest hobby store ( in any direction ). Does anyone know where I could order it by mail ?
               
                  The last picture shows you inside the boiler and you can see what ever was used to join the pieces of boiler together squeezed out. When I cleaned the paint of the boiler with brake fluid I was worried how it might affect what was used. It is strong whatever it is. Unless it is also pinned I would have a hard time snapping it in half. Hard to pick with a metal blade. Definitely stronger then solder. To me it looks like a type of liquid metal but I had never heard they had this type of strength. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions what it might be ?
               
                                                                 Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14605 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Test
              Lennard Stewart wrote :

              This is a Test     123
              Lennard Stewart
              Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14606 From: jim heckard Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              
              George,
               
                Thanks. Squadron Green is what I was trying to remember.
               
                                                       Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 1:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

               

              jim i belive its caled squadron "green " putty it also comes in red i dont know if it co,es by mail but do a google search for squardon and it should come up.
              hope this helps you, and good luck on your project
               

              George Frey                                                      

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 10:23:34 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]

               

               
               

                    I'm sending a couple of pictures to show progress on the odd 4-4-4-2 Mantua modification I'm reworking and to ask a few questions.
               
                First picture is of the extended boiler I just got cleaned of paint. Was sitting down to pick left over paint out of cracks, corners and crevices. You can now see better now where the jointure was made. Really not that bad. I will have to fill in and file on the walk ways while I decide if I want to fill in the step of the boiler and take out that coke bottle effect. That is where the questions come in.
               
                Second picture shows you a close up of the boiler joint that is tight and even. I am looking for something to fill in the step. I normally us an epoxy but is hard to file. I know there is a green modelers putty in a tube. Can anyone give me the name ? Also I live an hour fifteen minutes drive from the nearest hobby store ( in any direction ). Does anyone know where I could order it by mail ?
               
                  The last picture shows you inside the boiler and you can see what ever was used to join the pieces of boiler together squeezed out. When I cleaned the paint of the boiler with brake fluid I was worried how it might affect what was used. It is strong whatever it is. Unless it is also pinned I would have a hard time snapping it in half. Hard to pick with a metal blade. Definitely stronger then solder. To me it looks like a type of liquid metal but I had never heard they had this type of strength. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions what it might be ?
               
                                                                 Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14607 From: Gary Woodard Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              Hi George,

              Squadren Green, Squadren White, are one the same thing, they are just different colors, if you need a lot of glazing putty, go to your auto parts store, and get a tube of bondo Glazing Putty, its the exact same thing, only its red...

              Gary W


               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 1:53:39 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

               

              jim i belive its caled squadron "green " putty it also comes in red i dont know if it co,es by mail but do a google search for squardon and it should come up.
              hope this helps you, and good luck on your project
               

              George Frey                                                      

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 10:23:34 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]

               

               
               

                    I'm sending a couple of pictures to show progress on the odd 4-4-4-2 Mantua modification I'm reworking and to ask a few questions.
               
                First picture is of the extended boiler I just got cleaned of paint. Was sitting down to pick left over paint out of cracks, corners and crevices. You can now see better now where the jointure was made. Really not that bad. I will have to fill in and file on the walk ways while I decide if I want to fill in the step of the boiler and take out that coke bottle effect. That is where the questions come in.
               
                Second picture shows you a close up of the boiler joint that is tight and even. I am looking for something to fill in the step. I normally us an epoxy but is hard to file. I know there is a green modelers putty in a tube. Can anyone give me the name ? Also I live an hour fifteen minutes drive from the nearest hobby store ( in any direction ). Does anyone know where I could order it by mail ?
               
                  The last picture shows you inside the boiler and you can see what ever was used to join the pieces of boiler together squeezed out. When I cleaned the paint of the boiler with brake fluid I was worried how it might affect what was used. It is strong whatever it is. Unless it is also pinned I would have a hard time snapping it in half. Hard to pick with a metal blade. Definitely stronger then solder. To me it looks like a type of liquid metal but I had never heard they had this type of strength. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions what it might be ?
               
                                                                 Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14608 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              I finally threw all my Squadron Green out.
              It shrinks, and shrinks, and shrinks.

              You get it perfect, even leave is set for two weeks, re-sand, paint, and a month later, it's shrunk enough to see.

              I use JBQuick (same as JBWeld, but dries in what, 15-20 minutes?).

              Grind, file, sand, it not only doesn't shrink but also adds an additional strength to the joint.

              Dave

              > George,
              >
              > Thanks. Squadron Green is what I was trying to remember.
              >
              > Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14609 From: George Frey Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Test
              came trough 10x10 ( thats good)
               

              George Frey                                                      

               




              From: Lennard Stewart <lennard@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 11:26:08 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Test

               

              Lennard Stewart wrote :

              This is a Test     123

              Lennard Stewart
              Owner of http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/1-87scalev ehiclesales/



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14610 From: gary pardue Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]
              Jim,
              The green modelers putty you ask about is avaialable from MicroMark and they have a catalog online. I have not used this product.

              Gary Pardue
              --- On Sun, 7/25/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, July 25, 2010, 1:23 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included
              > below]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >     
              >  I'm sending a couple
              > of pictures to show progress on the odd 4-4-4-2 Mantua
              > modification I'm
              > reworking and to ask a few questions.
              >  
              >   First picture is of
              > the extended boiler I
              > just got cleaned of paint. Was sitting down to pick left
              > over paint out of
              > cracks, corners and crevices. You can now see better now
              > where the jointure was
              > made. Really not that bad. I will have to fill in and file
              > on the walk ways
              > while I decide if I want to fill in the step of the
              > boiler and take out
              > that coke bottle effect. That is where the questions come
              > in.
              >  
              >   Second picture
              > shows you a close up of the
              > boiler joint that is tight and even. I am looking for
              > something to fill in the
              > step. I normally us an epoxy but is hard to file. I
              > know there is a green
              > modelers putty in a tube. Can anyone give me the name ?
              > Also I live an hour
              > fifteen minutes drive from the nearest hobby store ( in any
              > direction ). Does
              > anyone know where I could order it by mail ?
              >  
              >     The
              > last picture shows you
              > inside the boiler and you can see what ever was used to
              > join the pieces of
              > boiler together squeezed out. When I cleaned the paint of
              > the boiler with brake
              > fluid I was worried how it might affect what was used. It
              > is strong whatever it
              > is. Unless it is also pinned I would have a hard time
              > snapping it in half. Hard
              > to pick with a metal blade. Definitely stronger then
              > solder. To me it looks like
              > a type of liquid metal but I had never heard they had this
              > type of strength.
              > Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions what it might be
              > ?
              >  
              >                                                   
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14611 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /Vimy Locomotive Works/IMG_2279.JPG
              Uploaded by : rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Description : Unknown steam underside

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Vimy%20Locomotive%20Works/IMG_2279.JPG

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

              Regards,

              rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14612 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /Vimy Locomotive Works/IMG_2280.JPG
              Uploaded by : rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Description : Unknown steam side

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Vimy%20Locomotive%20Works/IMG_2280.JPG

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

              Regards,

              rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14613 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /Vimy Locomotive Works/IMG_2282.JPG
              Uploaded by : rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Description : Unknown steam rear

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Vimy%20Locomotive%20Works/IMG_2282.JPG

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

              Regards,

              rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14614 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              
              Bondo makes several fillers -- what you want is "spot putty"  or "glazing putty"   gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 12:21 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

              Hi George,

              Squadren Green, Squadren White, are one the same thing, they are just different colors, if you need a lot of glazing putty, go to your auto parts store, and get a tube of bondo Glazing Putty, its the exact same thing, only its red...

              Gary W


               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 1:53:39 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

               

              jim i belive its caled squadron "green " putty it also comes in red i dont know if it co,es by mail but do a google search for squardon and it should come up.
              hope this helps you, and good luck on your project
               

              George Frey                                                      

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 10:23:34 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]

               

               
               

                    I'm sending a couple of pictures to show progress on the odd 4-4-4-2 Mantua modification I'm reworking and to ask a few questions.
               
                First picture is of the extended boiler I just got cleaned of paint. Was sitting down to pick left over paint out of cracks, corners and crevices. You can now see better now where the jointure was made. Really not that bad. I will have to fill in and file on the walk ways while I decide if I want to fill in the step of the boiler and take out that coke bottle effect. That is where the questions come in.
               
                Second picture shows you a close up of the boiler joint that is tight and even. I am looking for something to fill in the step. I normally us an epoxy but is hard to file. I know there is a green modelers putty in a tube. Can anyone give me the name ? Also I live an hour fifteen minutes drive from the nearest hobby store ( in any direction ). Does anyone know where I could order it by mail ?
               
                  The last picture shows you inside the boiler and you can see what ever was used to join the pieces of boiler together squeezed out. When I cleaned the paint of the boiler with brake fluid I was worried how it might affect what was used. It is strong whatever it is. Unless it is also pinned I would have a hard time snapping it in half. Hard to pick with a metal blade. Definitely stronger then solder. To me it looks like a type of liquid metal but I had never heard they had this type of strength. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions what it might be ?
               
                                                                 Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14615 From: Gary Woodard Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              Hi Glen,

              You don't want anything in can, at least not for model work, glazing putty comes in a tube, a rather large tube when its for automotive applications...:o)

              Gary W


               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 7:26:23 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

               

              

              Bondo makes several fillers -- what you want is "spot putty"  or "glazing putty"   gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 12:21 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

              Hi George,

              Squadren Green, Squadren White, are one the same thing, they are just different colors, if you need a lot of glazing putty, go to your auto parts store, and get a tube of bondo Glazing Putty, its the exact same thing, only its red...

              Gary W


               
              Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 1:53:39 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

               

              jim i belive its caled squadron "green " putty it also comes in red i dont know if it co,es by mail but do a google search for squardon and it should come up.
              hope this helps you, and good luck on your project
               

              George Frey                                                      

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 10:23:34 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]

               

               
               

                    I'm sending a couple of pictures to show progress on the odd 4-4-4-2 Mantua modification I'm reworking and to ask a few questions.
               
                First picture is of the extended boiler I just got cleaned of paint. Was sitting down to pick left over paint out of cracks, corners and crevices. You can now see better now where the jointure was made. Really not that bad. I will have to fill in and file on the walk ways while I decide if I want to fill in the step of the boiler and take out that coke bottle effect. That is where the questions come in.
               
                Second picture shows you a close up of the boiler joint that is tight and even. I am looking for something to fill in the step. I normally us an epoxy but is hard to file. I know there is a green modelers putty in a tube. Can anyone give me the name ? Also I live an hour fifteen minutes drive from the nearest hobby store ( in any direction ). Does anyone know where I could order it by mail ?
               
                  The last picture shows you inside the boiler and you can see what ever was used to join the pieces of boiler together squeezed out. When I cleaned the paint of the boiler with brake fluid I was worried how it might affect what was used. It is strong whatever it is. Unless it is also pinned I would have a hard time snapping it in half. Hard to pick with a metal blade. Definitely stronger then solder. To me it looks like a type of liquid metal but I had never heard they had this type of strength. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions what it might be ?
               
                                                                 Jim H



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14616 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]
              Jim, I have had good success with Plastic Steel and Plastic Aluminum found at hardware stores in a large squeeze tube.  It is a thick paste that can be spread like putty.  It sticks well to metal and plastic. It will melt thin plastic if applied too thickly the first application.  New coats can be applied to build up and eliminate defects in surfaces. It can be applied thickly or very thin, whatever you might require.  The Plastic Aluminum is easiest to work with but they both file and sand easily because they have a plastic base material impregnated with powdered steel or powdered aluminum.  Thick applications can even be drilled and tapped.  I like these two substances better than Squadron Green Putty.  Use them in a well ventilated space and let them cure until very hard.  Shaping time when first applied is a few minutes so it is workable for a while.  I have even streamlined boilers with it including shaped bullet noses built up right on the smoke box front and filled in firebox sides.  I have even built up streamline skyline casings on the tops of boilers and left the top ring of the smokestack protruding just above the casing top.

              You could use this substance to build up the boiler at the joint or you could use shim brass plates shaped to fit over the stepped area and glued into place between the large diameter boiler section and the next boiler band to the rear on the smaller diameter boiler... and down from the extra turret that could be shaped into another sand box and the top of the walkway.

              In the automotive business there is a putty substance that is sold for making metal repairs and it is much harder when cured but I have never been able to find it locally.  I have just seen it in automotive catalogs.

              You have a good opportunity to learn a lot of new techniques here with this rebuild. 

              Have fun...

              Don Staton in VA.
              ===================================================================================================

              On 7/25/2010 1:23 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               
               

                    I'm sending a couple of pictures to show progress on the odd 4-4-4-2 Mantua modification I'm reworking and to ask a few questions.
               
                First picture is of the extended boiler I just got cleaned of paint. Was sitting down to pick left over paint out of cracks, corners and crevices. You can now see better now where the jointure was made. Really not that bad. I will have to fill in and file on the walk ways while I decide if I want to fill in the step of the boiler and take out that coke bottle effect. That is where the questions come in.
               
                Second picture shows you a close up of the boiler joint that is tight and even. I am looking for something to fill in the step. I normally us an epoxy but is hard to file. I know there is a green modelers putty in a tube. Can anyone give me the name ? Also I live an hour fifteen minutes drive from the nearest hobby store ( in any direction ). Does anyone know where I could order it by mail ?
               
                  The last picture shows you inside the boiler and you can see what ever was used to join the pieces of boiler together squeezed out. When I cleaned the paint of the boiler with brake fluid I was worried how it might affect what was used. It is strong whatever it is. Unless it is also pinned I would have a hard time snapping it in half. Hard to pick with a metal blade. Definitely stronger then solder. To me it looks like a type of liquid metal but I had never heard they had this type of strength. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions what it might be ?
               
                                                                 Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14617 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              Jim, I can't recall seeing a better recommendation for filling in defects
              and building up areas than Don S's post on using Plastic Steel and Plastic
              Aluminum. I've used both myself from time to time with great success, as
              it's very workable, although not recently. I've never used Squadron Green only
              because of the reason I just mentioned -- my preference in these
              applications were always the same as what Don has used -- but IF Squadron Green is the
              same stuff as Bondo, and IF Bondo shrinks as it's said to do, then I
              wouldn't consider that product unless your experience with it has shown otherwise.


              I would have recommended Plastic Steel and Plastic Aluminum earlier, except
              that you were specifically looking for the name of the Squadron Green
              stuff, seemingly to prefer it, and I didn't know if Plastic Steel & Aluminum were
              still available either as I haven't used them in a while. Anyway, you have
              a few choices now. I can see that once you fill in the portion of the
              boiler between the band at the rear of that extra valve turret and the band just
              forward of it, with reshaping that turret, the boiler should look perfectly
              acceptable. Take your time and don't let it become a chore, you'll enjoy
              the project better. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14618 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              
              right.  .  The stuff in the can is fort serious filling.  gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 8:19 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

              Hi Glen,

              You don't want anything in can, at least not for model work, glazing putty comes in a tube, a rather large tube when its for automotive applications...:o)

              Gary W


               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: Glenn476 <glenn476@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 7:26:23 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

               

              

              Bondo makes several fillers -- what you want is "spot putty"  or "glazing putty"   gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 12:21 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

              Hi George,

              Squadren Green, Squadren White, are one the same thing, they are just different colors, if you need a lot of glazing putty, go to your auto parts store, and get a tube of bondo Glazing Putty, its the exact same thing, only its red...

              Gary W


               
              Click HERE http://www.eeintern ational.org/ pages/page. asp?page_ id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: George Frey <orangetrainman33@ yahoo.com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 1:53:39 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions

               

              jim i belive its caled squadron "green " putty it also comes in red i dont know if it co,es by mail but do a google search for squardon and it should come up.
              hope this helps you, and good luck on your project
               

              George Frey                                                      

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 10:23:34 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions [3 Attachments]

               

               
               

                    I'm sending a couple of pictures to show progress on the odd 4-4-4-2 Mantua modification I'm reworking and to ask a few questions.
               
                First picture is of the extended boiler I just got cleaned of paint. Was sitting down to pick left over paint out of cracks, corners and crevices. You can now see better now where the jointure was made. Really not that bad. I will have to fill in and file on the walk ways while I decide if I want to fill in the step of the boiler and take out that coke bottle effect. That is where the questions come in.
               
                Second picture shows you a close up of the boiler joint that is tight and even. I am looking for something to fill in the step. I normally us an epoxy but is hard to file. I know there is a green modelers putty in a tube. Can anyone give me the name ? Also I live an hour fifteen minutes drive from the nearest hobby store ( in any direction ). Does anyone know where I could order it by mail ?
               
                  The last picture shows you inside the boiler and you can see what ever was used to join the pieces of boiler together squeezed out. When I cleaned the paint of the boiler with brake fluid I was worried how it might affect what was used. It is strong whatever it is. Unless it is also pinned I would have a hard time snapping it in half. Hard to pick with a metal blade. Definitely stronger then solder. To me it looks like a type of liquid metal but I had never heard they had this type of strength. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions what it might be ?
               
                                                                 Jim H



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14619 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              I left out--the Devcon Plastic Steel I recall was a 2-part product,
              including the separate hardener. I think there are also one-part products.

              an advantage of the body fillers like regular Bondo is that they set up
              quickly. Some, like Plastic Steel and JB Weld have fairly long curing times.
              gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <erieberk@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 3:59 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions


              > Jim, I can't recall seeing a better recommendation for filling in defects
              > and building up areas than Don S's post on using Plastic Steel and Plastic
              > Aluminum. I've used both myself from time to time with great success, as
              > it's very workable, although not recently. I've never used Squadron Green
              > only
              > because of the reason I just mentioned -- my preference in these
              > applications were always the same as what Don has used -- but IF Squadron
              > Green is the
              > same stuff as Bondo, and IF Bondo shrinks as it's said to do, then I
              > wouldn't consider that product unless your experience with it has shown
              > otherwise.
              >
              >
              > I would have recommended Plastic Steel and Plastic Aluminum earlier,
              > except
              > that you were specifically looking for the name of the Squadron Green
              > stuff, seemingly to prefer it, and I didn't know if Plastic Steel &
              > Aluminum were
              > still available either as I haven't used them in a while. Anyway, you
              > have
              > a few choices now. I can see that once you fill in the portion of the
              > boiler between the band at the rear of that extra valve turret and the
              > band just
              > forward of it, with reshaping that turret, the boiler should look
              > perfectly
              > acceptable. Take your time and don't let it become a chore, you'll enjoy
              > the project better. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14620 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              I have not had a problem with Bondo shrinking.

              I have a Lionel railroad in my dad's basement, and like to convert prewar and early postwar 2 rail scale stock, to Lionel 3 rail operation. I had a number of 80' Walthers coaches, that I chopped down to 60' shorties. I used bondo to patch and disguise the splice in the sides and roof. Worked wonders on the wooden roofs - a little sanding and priming and painting, and you would never know they were spliced!

              I also used Bondo to fix a dinged John English coach (A Compaq deskpro that was sitting in my closet fell on a JE coach). Anyone who has ever worked with Deskpro systems, know they weigh a TON! Well, the coach survived with only a big dent in the roof. Took quite a few layers applied, but Bondo fixed that. Ditto for a chip in the wooden roof of an American Beauty coach that arrived with a chip in its roof.

              Yes, I pretty much swear by Bondo for these fixes.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Mon, 7/26/10, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:

              From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, July 26, 2010, 5:59 AM

               

              Jim, I can't recall seeing a better recommendation for filling in defects
              and building up areas than Don S's post on using Plastic Steel and Plastic
              Aluminum. I've used both myself from time to time with great success, as
              it's very workable, although not recently. I've never used Squadron Green only
              because of the reason I just mentioned -- my preference in these
              applications were always the same as what Don has used -- but IF Squadron Green is the
              same stuff as Bondo, and IF Bondo shrinks as it's said to do, then I
              wouldn't consider that product unless your experience with it has shown otherwise.


              I would have recommended Plastic Steel and Plastic Aluminum earlier, except
              that you were specifically looking for the name of the Squadron Green
              stuff, seemingly to prefer it, and I didn't know if Plastic Steel & Aluminum were
              still available either as I haven't used them in a while. Anyway, you have
              a few choices now. I can see that once you fill in the portion of the
              boiler between the band at the rear of that extra valve turret and the band just
              forward of it, with reshaping that turret, the boiler should look perfectly
              acceptable. Take your time and don't let it become a chore, you'll enjoy
              the project better. Ray F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14621 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              there are several similar but different products here. What I think of as
              "Plastic Steel" is the Devcon product that came out in the fifties. This is
              similar to JB Weld in that they are quite hard when set up, and can fill
              fairly deep areas. I don;t recall either having much shrinkage. They can
              be filed but with some difficulty. Squadron green, and the Bondo
              spot/glazing putties are intended for filling joints and do have some
              shrinkage if you try to fill deep holes. The Bondo spot and similat
              products are intended for surfacing larger but shallow areas. Regular Bondo
              is used for filling "wrinkles" in auto body work . It sands and files
              easily

              Each has its uses in model work. gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <erieberk@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 3:59 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Progress and Questions


              > Jim, I can't recall seeing a better recommendation for filling in defects
              > and building up areas than Don S's post on using Plastic Steel and Plastic
              > Aluminum. I've used both myself from time to time with great success, as
              > it's very workable, although not recently. I've never used Squadron Green
              > only
              > because of the reason I just mentioned -- my preference in these
              > applications were always the same as what Don has used -- but IF Squadron
              > Green is the
              > same stuff as Bondo, and IF Bondo shrinks as it's said to do, then I
              > wouldn't consider that product unless your experience with it has shown
              > otherwise.
              >
              >
              > I would have recommended Plastic Steel and Plastic Aluminum earlier,
              > except
              > that you were specifically looking for the name of the Squadron Green
              > stuff, seemingly to prefer it, and I didn't know if Plastic Steel &
              > Aluminum were
              > still available either as I haven't used them in a while. Anyway, you
              > have
              > a few choices now. I can see that once you fill in the portion of the
              > boiler between the band at the rear of that extra valve turret and the
              > band just
              > forward of it, with reshaping that turret, the boiler should look
              > perfectly
              > acceptable. Take your time and don't let it become a chore, you'll enjoy
              > the project better. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14622 From: John H Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              IMHO, using Squadron Green could be a bit of problem. This stuff, and automotive glazing putty's, is for thin coats and not the best for doing any heavy coats. They apply nicely, set up fast and can be sanded easily and will leave a nice smooth surface but they will shrink if applied too thickly or if too many thin coats are applied before the first coats have fully cured. While I do not know it's chemical make-up, I always considered it to act like very thick lacquer primer (that's going back many years when I used to do some minor auto work, probably no lacquer now). I feel the best bet would be the Plastic Aluminum or Steel for the basic filing in of the shape. If the there are minor surface imperfections then use the green/glazing compounds.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
              >
              > there are several similar but different products here. What I think of as
              > "Plastic Steel" is the Devcon product that came out in the fifties. This is
              > similar to JB Weld in that they are quite hard when set up, and can fill
              > fairly deep areas. I don;t recall either having much shrinkage. They can
              > be filed but with some difficulty. Squadron green, and the Bondo
              > spot/glazing putties are intended for filling joints and do have some
              > shrinkage if you try to fill deep holes. The Bondo spot and similat
              > products are intended for surfacing larger but shallow areas. Regular Bondo
              > is used for filling "wrinkles" in auto body work . It sands and files
              > easily
              >
              > Each has its uses in model work. gj
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14623 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              Another product I've found to be similar to Plastic Steel for its
              workability after setting is Duro (trade mark) Liquid Steel, made by Loctite Corp.
              It dries in 3 to 4 hours in thicknesses of 1/8" -- faster if applied thinner.
              For thicker applications, several layers should be used. Comes in a
              single tube, blister-packed to a card, Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14624 From: rcjge Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: posting problems, Moderator please contact me
              Hello: Moderator:

              Had problems posting messages last two days. Can you contact me please!?

              Thanks,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14625 From: David Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              I got my first HO train piece (Athearn 0-4-2T) in 1961 or 1962. The orange/white/black NH RDCs were in the catalog I got that year and were available for some time thereafter, and the Coal Tower was being advertised by Athearn at the same time or very shortly afterward. As I recall, there was a large ad photo showing the 0-4-2T pushing hoppers through the coal tower. I hope the towers worked better than the 0-4-2Ts.

              -- D

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, corlissbs@... wrote:
              >
              > Sean, the book is incorrect on the RDC colors and passenger car colors.
              > The NH silver scheme came first on the RDC cars and silver with the orange
              > stripe on the 5-piece stainless passenger cars. Then came the one piece
              > passenger cars in the same color. Somewhere around 1962 the colors of both
              > were switched to the red/white/black scheme and later switched back to the
              > original scheme. This came at the same time as the color scheme was switched
              > on the New Haven F7 from the white to the later scheme with the added
              > black.
              >
              > Brad Smith (New Haven collector)
              > Franklin, WI
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14626 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /Vimy Locomotive Works/IMG_2281.JPG
              Uploaded by : rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Description : Unknown steam top

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/Vimy%20Locomotive%20Works/IMG_2281.JPG

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

              Regards,

              rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14627 From: rcjge Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Positive ID on This?
              Hey Fella's,

              I posted that ebay batch a bit ago that I got and it's arrived. All those boilers/cabs and the two diesel shells as well as what not, The one steamer boiler/cab that went un-Id'd positively was the one I placed in the folder Vimy Locomotive Works.... Can someone tell me who made this and when. It had been suggested a Cary but I looked at HO-Seeker and concluded no. Any thoughts???

              Note:
              The photo's will be deleted once it's ID'd or ID-ing fails; to conserve space.

              Dear Moderator; would it have been better for these to be placed in the photo section? Would the same be true of the two vintage brass Mogul shots I have in the folder?

              Regards,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14628 From: David Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn Automatic Coal & Sand Loader
              The 1961 Athearn catalog/brochure  is the first that lists the Coal/Sand Loader.

              Here is the page of the 1962 catalog  that I remembered - tricolor NH RDCs and the Coal/Sand Loader on one page.

              I can't say how long the Loader was listed. HOseeker's Athearn catalog scans  jump from '62 to the Athearn listings in the JMC-ConCor Trainalogs, which still listed it as late as '75, and perhaps later (I didn't search any further). I don't know if Athearn was still producing them in '75; it's possible that JMC just had a lingering  stock of them years after Athearn molded the last one.

              -- D

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "69_Mustang_Man" <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi All,
              >
              > I just picked one of these up. Never heard of one of these before and was wondering if anyone had ever seen one. I have no idea of the age, but it came with a group of black and red (McGinnis Scheme) New Haven RDC's that i purchased. I know the McGinnis scheme was produced for only one year (the first year) of the Athearn RDC's. I collect the New haven and this tower just came with it.
              >
              > Thanks. I will post pictures with my first reply.
              >
              >
              > Sean
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14629 From: rcjge Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Unknown Steamer ID
              Hey guys:

              Don't know what happened to my posting. it was over an hour ago and still hasn't shown up yet.

              Anyway, I was asking if anyone based on the unknown Steam pics in the Varney Locomotive Works folder could help me ID the boiler/cab combo. Someone I know suggested Cary but I don't think so after comparing it to diagrams on the HO-Seeker web site.

              Anyone????

              Thanks,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14630 From: Mike Sloane Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Progress and Questions
              Most of the "putty" type fillers are not intended to fill deep
              depressions/gaps. They are intended to even out very slight depressions
              and scratches. That being said, the best way to use them to fill more
              than very minor cracks/holes is to apply a VERY thin layer, allow it to
              dry thoroughly, then apply another THIN layer, and repeat until the
              desired result is achieved. And since the solvent in the material will
              tend to dissolve the material that has been allowed to dry, the
              subsequent applications have to be done very quickly. If you get too
              much fill, then you just sand it down until the desired appearance is
              attained - don't try to make a perfect appearance when applying it.

              All the above is to point out why glazing putty is probably the wrong
              material to use for filling large gaps or holes and why it is better to
              use the materials others have suggested. There is nothing wrong with the
              putty material, if it used for its intended purpose.

              Mike

              On 7/26/2010 6:59 AM, erieberk@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > Jim, I can't recall seeing a better recommendation for filling in
              > defects and building up areas than Don S's post on using Plastic
              > Steel and Plastic Aluminum. I've used both myself from time to time
              > with great success, as it's very workable, although not recently.
              > I've never used Squadron Green only because of the reason I just
              > mentioned -- my preference in these applications were always the same
              > as what Don has used -- but IF Squadron Green is the same stuff as
              > Bondo, and IF Bondo shrinks as it's said to do, then I wouldn't
              > consider that product unless your experience with it has shown
              > otherwise.
              >
              >
              > I would have recommended Plastic Steel and Plastic Aluminum earlier,
              > except that you were specifically looking for the name of the
              > Squadron Green stuff, seemingly to prefer it, and I didn't know if
              > Plastic Steel & Aluminum were still available either as I haven't
              > used them in a while. Anyway, you have a few choices now. I can see
              > that once you fill in the portion of the boiler between the band at
              > the rear of that extra valve turret and the band just forward of it,
              > with reshaping that turret, the boiler should look perfectly
              > acceptable. Take your time and don't let it become a chore, you'll
              > enjoy the project better. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14631 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Unknown Steamer ID
              Attachments :

              Gareth,
               What you have is a John English boiler. Check HO SEEKER for more info as to the production dates.
              --- On Sun, 7/25/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

              From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Unknown Steamer ID
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, July 25, 2010, 4:47 PM

              Hey guys:

              Don't know what happened to my posting. it was over an hour ago and still hasn't shown up yet.

              Anyway, I was asking if anyone based on the unknown Steam pics in the Varney Locomotive Works folder could help me ID the boiler/cab combo. Someone I know suggested Cary but I don't think so after comparing it to diagrams on the HO-Seeker web site.

              Anyone????

              Thanks,
              Gareth



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                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14632 From: rcjge Date: 7/26/2010
              Subject: Test Post
              Last two msg's haven't shown up.

              Testing.....

              -Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14633 From: bluenosedviking Date: 7/27/2010
              Subject: Painting Amercan Flyer HO Passenger Cars
              I have acquired a number of American Flyer HO Gauge Passenger cars which I would like to paint B&M red/maroon. The cars are plastic and are in their original New Haven green. Does anyone have a technique for successfully painting that vintage plastic?
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14634 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 7/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Positive ID on This?
              Your message DID arrive, at least if this is the one you are referring to. aayour message to the moderator [not me] arrived too.

              On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 6:23 PM, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
               

              Hey Fella's,

              I posted that ebay batch a bit ago that I got and it's arrived. All those boilers/cabs and the two diesel shells as well as what not, The one steamer boiler/cab that went un-Id'd positively was the one I placed in the folder Vimy Locomotive Works.... Can someone tell me who made this and when. It had been suggested a Cary but I looked at HO-Seeker and concluded no. Any thoughts???

              Note:
              The photo's will be deleted once it's ID'd or ID-ing fails; to conserve space.

              Dear Moderator; would it have been better for these to be placed in the photo section? Would the same be true of the two vintage brass Mogul shots I have in the folder?

              Regards,
              Gareth




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14635 From: prr_homewood_jct Date: 7/27/2010
              Subject: question : old athearn hi f drives ?
              hello, my question is on the bottom of the athearn rubber band drives , where there two different styles of fuel tank bottoms, one has two screws but the other looks like the newer stuff in just a split tank and no screws ?
              Any thoughts ? Thank you , James Gitts
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14636 From: Don Dellmann Date: 7/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Positive ID on This?
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Walter Bayer II" <bayerw2@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 3:41 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Positive ID on This?


              Your message DID arrive, at least if this is the one you are referring to.
              aayour message to the moderator [not me] arrived too.

              On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 6:23 PM, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hey Fella's,
              >
              > I posted that ebay batch a bit ago that I got and it's arrived. All those
              > boilers/cabs and the two diesel shells as well as what not, The one
              > steamer
              > boiler/cab that went un-Id'd positively was the one I placed in the folder
              > Vimy Locomotive Works.... Can someone tell me who made this and when. It
              > had
              > been suggested a Cary but I looked at HO-Seeker and concluded no. Any
              > thoughts???
              >
              > Note:
              > The photo's will be deleted once it's ID'd or ID-ing fails; to conserve
              > space.
              >
              > Dear Moderator; would it have been better for these to be placed in the
              > photo section? Would the same be true of the two vintage brass Mogul shots
              > I
              > have in the folder?
              >
              > Regards,
              > Gareth
              >
              >

              Photos really should be in the photo section where we have more space. The
              files section should really be reserved for text firles, or things like
              PDF's of catalog pages or ads or instruction sheets where finer detail is
              required.

              I haven't said anything because it hasn't been an issue, but it could become
              one as we grow.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14637 From: jim heckard Date: 7/27/2010
              Subject: Progress during Step 5
               
               

                  While still contemplating which way to go during Step 5 the beast grows. I have assembled enough back together to make a "push" engine for now. While it lacks one steam chest, side rods, main rods and valve gear enough has been put back together ( of how I got it to start with ) that the trial and error as to changes it might need can begin. 
               
                I have found out a couple of things already. As it is now, even with the biggest slot I can put in the front set of drivers as to the original pivot point it had  when I received it, it will not take 18' radius. It is very close to taking 22" which is the largest I have. If one of the inside sets of drivers, preferably the front one of the back set, was flangeless it would take 22" the way it is now. ( However this is the geared driver and it probably would lose some traction on the turns because the entire width of the  drivers would not be on the rail )
               
                I have added some weight over the back set of still rigid drivers, and even without the weight of the motor, have enough that there is hardly any rubbing , friction between the front set of drivers having the Lucite block above and under the boiler.
               
                I am going to move the pivot point to the back of the front set of dummy drivers and try to pivot from there to get 18" radius. I want to be able to pick the engine up and not have the entire weight of the front ( front drivers, steam chest, frame pilot and lead truck ) hanging in the air if I would go to a hinge between the driver sets.
               
                After I get the set up the best to track I will then put the motor in and work on getting it to have good traction and some pulling power. It doesn't need to pull a 100 cars for me.
               
              Last and WAAAAAY down the road I will decide how much detail ( piping and such ) that has been suggested will be added.
               
                                                        Jim H
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14638 From: jim heckard Date: 7/27/2010
              Subject: Change made already
              Attachments :
               

               
               
                        I made a big change already. I didn't like the large space between the sets of drivers and the ladders were to far from the front of the boiler. I moved the whole front set of drivers and the attached parts back 3/8th. I am pivoting this front set off the very back of it's frame now. There is a place above in the inside of the boiler where there is a nub I am drilling into and inserting a bolt down from there that will go through the very back end of the front driver piece to pivot on. A nut , top and bottom of the bolt will not only let me adjust the whole part up and down but will be solid enough to pick up the engine. I won't need a hinge piece . I have rounded the back end of the front frame and a concave rounding in the front of the back steam chest allowing movement and clearance. ( The back steam chest might look crooked . It is not bolted just sitting there ) I think I solved my pivoting, turning radius and it looks better being close.. I'll know for sure tomorrow.
               
                                                                   Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14639 From: charlie@tech-j.biz Date: 7/27/2010
              Subject: Athearn DD40
              Hi

              In 1967 Athearn produced the DD40. I have downloaded the parts list from HOSeeker but I canno tqjuite read the text. Anyone got a better copy that could help me.

              Looking for part #s for all the items in the 4 axle truck.


              Thanks

              Charlie Harris
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14640 From: charlie@tech-j.biz Date: 7/27/2010
              Subject: Athearn based Turbine ! from late 60's
              HI

              In the late 60's I believe there was a company that produced a turbine body to go onto the athearn DD40 chassis.

              Where can I find a photo of this turbine body ? Probably there is an ad somewhere.

              Thanks

              Charlie Harris
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14641 From: rcjge Date: 7/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Positive ID on This?
              Dear Don & Anon:

              I'll get them moved. Ray Marinaccio has ID'd the Boiler in question as a John English unit, now I just need to find out if it's a Pacific or Mike. The page in HO Seeker isn't real clear. It may be the same boiler like Penn Line did for their Pacific and Mikado as well as their Decapod at one time. Can anyone chime in on this???

              Thanks,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14642 From: Roger Aultman Date: 7/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Positive ID on This?
              The ones I have appear to be the same.   Roger Aultman
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:22 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Positive ID on This?

               

              Dear Don & Anon:

              I'll get them moved. Ray Marinaccio has ID'd the Boiler in question as a John English unit, now I just need to find out if it's a Pacific or Mike. The page in HO Seeker isn't real clear. It may be the same boiler like Penn Line did for their Pacific and Mikado as well as their Decapod at one time. Can anyone chime in on this???

              Thanks,
              Gareth

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14643 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Positive ID on This?
              Gareth, The Boiler(s) (English #5001) and Tender Shell(s) (English #3101)
              are the same/identical on either the John English Pacific (#5000) or the John
              English Mikado (#5100); both engines used the same boiler and tender. I
              have both kits and just took another look at them to double-check this, and
              even the part numbers match on both instruction sheets. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14644 From: jim heckard Date: 7/28/2010
              Subject: Success 18" Radius
              Attachments :
               

               
               
                    I have succeeded in getting my Mantua modified 4-4-4-2 "Beast" articulated to negotiate 18" curves with the leading and trailing trucks on. I can now "push it " ( no motor ) even through left and right hand switches.
               
                   It articulates like a real engine with back sets of drivers rigid and front sets pivoting from the back of the front frame. It has no hinge between the sets of drivers. It is ground round on the front of the back steam chest and on the back of the front frame to let it move without a problem. The front set of drivers still ride on the Lucite block with  no friction from the boiler.
               
                  One small problem before I move on to better traction / power.  The ladders on the Mantua pilot will have to be taken off and put a different place / angle as they interfere with the boiler swing. 
               
                  I am now content to sit back, relax for a little while and have my Irish coffee.
               
                                                                                    Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14645 From: jim heckard Date: 7/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Athearn DD40
              Hi Charlie,
               
                  I have the Athearn sheet for the EMD-DD/40 and its prints out a nice copy. Problem is I have no scanner or fax machine. I would be glad to send you a clear copy in the mail if you want to provide an address. Contact me off site at jimheck@...
               
                                                                                            Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:22 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Athearn DD40

               

              Hi

              In 1967 Athearn produced the DD40. I have downloaded the parts list from HOSeeker but I canno tqjuite read the text. Anyone got a better copy that could help me.

              Looking for part #s for all the items in the 4 axle truck.

              Thanks

              Charlie Harris

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14646 From: Chris B Date: 7/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Success 18" Radius [1 Attachment]
              Congratulations JIM!   I've followed this whole saga without comment, since my knowledge of vintage HO steam would fit down the stack of the "Beast", but I applaud your success and your liquid reward! 

              I couldn't offer any knowledge on your project, but since all four of my grandparents were born in Ireland before they moved to NYC, where my folks and I were born; I'll share this little nugget; when they boosted their own coffee, they always said they were "putting a stick in it".

              You must be very proud of taming that Beast! 

              Chris Brannigan







              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, July 28, 2010 4:49:59 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Success 18" Radius [1 Attachment]

               

               

               
               
                    I have succeeded in getting my Mantua modified 4-4-4-2 "Beast" articulated to negotiate 18" curves with the leading and trailing trucks on. I can now "push it " ( no motor ) even through left and right hand switches.
               
                   It articulates like a real engine with back sets of drivers rigid and front sets pivoting from the back of the front frame. It has no hinge between the sets of drivers. It is ground round on the front of the back steam chest and on the back of the front frame to let it move without a problem. The front set of drivers still ride on the Lucite block with  no friction from the boiler.
               
                  One small problem before I move on to better traction / power.  The ladders on the Mantua pilot will have to be taken off and put a different place / angle as they interfere with the boiler swing. 
               
                  I am now content to sit back, relax for a little while and have my Irish coffee.
               
                                                                                    Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14647 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Success 18" Radius [1 Attachment]
              Jim, cut the ladders off at the top of the pump shields...  Extend the walkways out as far as the front of the smoke box on the boiler and then make a step in the shape of a flattened "Z"... Gluing the step under the walkway and having a sloping support coming out from the end of the walkway and then making a level step one step down that will hang out to the front and be the next step up from the top of the ladders.  See one like this on the front of an N&W,Class A, 2-6-6-4 and some other articulated steam locos.
              __  walkway level
                  \__  step down level
                         __  ladder below
                         \    \
                          \    \
              Don Staton in VA.
              ==================================================================================================

              On 7/28/2010 4:49 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               

               
               
                    I have succeeded in getting my Mantua modified 4-4-4-2 "Beast" articulated to negotiate 18" curves with the leading and trailing trucks on. I can now "push it " ( no motor ) even through left and right hand switches.
               
                   It articulates like a real engine with back sets of drivers rigid and front sets pivoting from the back of the front frame. It has no hinge between the sets of drivers. It is ground round on the front of the back steam chest and on the back of the front frame to let it move without a problem. The front set of drivers still ride on the Lucite block with  no friction from the boiler.
               
                  One small problem before I move on to better traction / power.  The ladders on the Mantua pilot will have to be taken off and put a different place / angle as they interfere with the boiler swing. 
               
                  I am now content to sit back, relax for a little while and have my Irish coffee.
               
                                                                                    Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14648 From: jim heckard Date: 7/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Success 18" Radius
                Don,
               
                          Looks like a good idea. I think it should work for me. Shouildn't be to hard to do.
               
                                                                                              Jim H  
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 8:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Success 18" Radius

               

              Jim, cut the ladders off at the top of the pump shields...  Extend the walkways out as far as the front of the smoke box on the boiler and then make a step in the shape of a flattened "Z"... Gluing the step under the walkway and having a sloping support coming out from the end of the walkway and then making a level step one step down that will hang out to the front and be the next step up from the top of the ladders.  See one like this on the front of an N&W,Class A, 2-6-6-4 and some other articulated steam locos.
              __  walkway level
                  \__  step down level
                         __  ladder below
                         \    \
                          \    \
              Don Staton in VA.
              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

              On 7/28/2010 4:49 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               

               
               
                    I have succeeded in getting my Mantua modified 4-4-4-2 "Beast" articulated to negotiate 18" curves with the leading and trailing trucks on. I can now "push it " ( no motor ) even through left and right hand switches.
               
                   It articulates like a real engine with back sets of drivers rigid and front sets pivoting from the back of the front frame. It has no hinge between the sets of drivers. It is ground round on the front of the back steam chest and on the back of the front frame to let it move without a problem. The front set of drivers still ride on the Lucite block with  no friction from the boiler.
               
                  One small problem before I move on to better traction / power.  The ladders on the Mantua pilot will have to be taken off and put a different place / angle as they interfere with the boiler swing. 
               
                  I am now content to sit back, relax for a little while and have my Irish coffee.
               
                                                                                    Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14649 From: jim heckard Date: 7/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Success 18" Radius
              
              Chris,
               
                   I feel real good about this first step. It makes me want to continue to rework the engine into a good running, pulling and nice looking item. It's only my time so it doesn't cost me anything. I enjoy this type of thing. Keeps the brain working.
               
                   I now live in what was a anthracite coal mining "patch" that were people of Irish decent, my wife's mothers side of the family lived here for over 100 years. After a hard day in the mines eating coal dust from dawn to dusk the liquid reward was a way of enjoying having survived another day. Yes Irish coffee had a kick to it just like the TNT they used in the mines. 
               
                                                                                      Jim
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 6:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Success 18" Radius

               

              Congratulations JIM!   I've followed this whole saga without comment, since my knowledge of vintage HO steam would fit down the stack of the "Beast", but I applaud your success and your liquid reward! 

              I couldn't offer any knowledge on your project, but since all four of my grandparents were born in Ireland before they moved to NYC, where my folks and I were born; I'll share this little nugget; when they boosted their own coffee, they always said they were "putting a stick in it".

              You must be very proud of taming that Beast! 

              Chris Brannigan







              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Wed, July 28, 2010 4:49:59 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Success 18" Radius [1 Attachment]

               

               

               
               
                    I have succeeded in getting my Mantua modified 4-4-4-2 "Beast" articulated to negotiate 18" curves with the leading and trailing trucks on. I can now "push it " ( no motor ) even through left and right hand switches.
               
                   It articulates like a real engine with back sets of drivers rigid and front sets pivoting from the back of the front frame. It has no hinge between the sets of drivers. It is ground round on the front of the back steam chest and on the back of the front frame to let it move without a problem. The front set of drivers still ride on the Lucite block with  no friction from the boiler.
               
                  One small problem before I move on to better traction / power.  The ladders on the Mantua pilot will have to be taken off and put a different place / angle as they interfere with the boiler swing. 
               
                  I am now content to sit back, relax for a little while and have my Irish coffee.
               
                                                                                    Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14650 From: driven280 Date: 7/28/2010
              Subject: Couplers for Varney F3
              My trusty(?) Varney F3 A-B set is in need of couplers. Anyone have a recommendation on which ones to use? Neither unit has couplers so I don't have an example to go by. Any help much appreciated. Regards to all,

              Jim McClenin
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14651 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Couplers for Varney F3
              Contact Sam Clarke at Kadee--he worked it out on an F-3 set of mine--you
              will have to cut a hole in the pilot for a front coupler. gj


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "driven280" <mugger47@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 7:52 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Couplers for Varney F3


              > My trusty(?) Varney F3 A-B set is in need of couplers. Anyone have a
              > recommendation on which ones to use? Neither unit has couplers so I don't
              > have an example to go by. Any help much appreciated. Regards to all,
              >
              > Jim McClenin
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14652 From: driven280 Date: 7/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Couplers for Varney F3
              Thanks Glenn....Sounds like a plan.

              Jim McClenin

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
              >
              > Contact Sam Clarke at Kadee--he worked it out on an F-3 set of mine--you
              > will have to cut a hole in the pilot for a front coupler. gj
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "driven280" <mugger47@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 7:52 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Couplers for Varney F3
              >
              >
              > > My trusty(?) Varney F3 A-B set is in need of couplers. Anyone have a
              > > recommendation on which ones to use? Neither unit has couplers so I don't
              > > have an example to go by. Any help much appreciated. Regards to all,
              > >
              > > Jim McClenin
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14653 From: Glenn476 Date: 7/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Couplers for Varney F3
              Sam should be taking phone calls this afternoon--they are closed Friday
              afternoons. gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "driven280" <mugger47@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 6:26 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Couplers for Varney F3


              > Thanks Glenn....Sounds like a plan.
              >
              > Jim McClenin
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Contact Sam Clarke at Kadee--he worked it out on an F-3 set of mine--you
              >> will have to cut a hole in the pilot for a front coupler. gj
              >>
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: "driven280" <mugger47@...>
              >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 7:52 PM
              >> Subject: [vintageHO] Couplers for Varney F3
              >>
              >>
              >> > My trusty(?) Varney F3 A-B set is in need of couplers. Anyone have a
              >> > recommendation on which ones to use? Neither unit has couplers so I
              >> > don't
              >> > have an example to go by. Any help much appreciated. Regards to all,
              >> >
              >> > Jim McClenin
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > ------------------------------------
              >> >
              >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14654 From: jim heckard Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: high selling vintage HO
               
               

                      Just wonder if others have noted some vintage HO items on Ebay and the prices they have gone for in the last 2 weeks.
               
                  Penn Line Reading Crusader                             $ 900+
                  Rivarossi  Hiawatha ( Factory painted )               $ 666   And I honestly expected it to go much higher
                  Varney Yellowstone ( No motor, no tender )        $ 398
               
               
                   There is a nice hard to find vintage piece for sale right now, mislabeled, in decent condition. I won't mention what as I might drive the price up on a member bidding on it ( no not me as I have one which is my limit ).
               
                                                                          Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14655 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: Re: high selling vintage HO
              I think I know the piece Jim! If it is, I have a bid set... I don't have one and I have it's running mate.
               
              Your package is on the way by the way... been a rough week at work. Worked until 10:00 pm last night.. and that was my 40th birthday...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 3:23:05 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] high selling vintage HO

               

               
               

                      Just wonder if others have noted some vintage HO items on Ebay and the prices they have gone for in the last 2 weeks.
               
                  Penn Line Reading Crusader                             $ 900+
                  Rivarossi  Hiawatha ( Factory painted )               $ 666   And I honestly expected it to go much higher
                  Varney Yellowstone ( No motor, no tender )        $ 398
               
               
                   There is a nice hard to find vintage piece for sale right now, mislabeled, in decent condition. I won't mention what as I might drive the price up on a member bidding on it ( no not me as I have one which is my limit ).
               
                                                                          Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14656 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: Re: high selling vintage HO
              I have a Penn Line Crusader with original box and plans which I paid $600 more for than the mentioned one just went for. I'd seriously consider selling it, but with the fickle economy I'd probably end up getting less than the the recent one in open bidding.
               
              In a message dated 7/30/2010 3:52:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, a69mustang4me@... writes:


              I think I know the piece Jim! If it is, I have a bid set... I don't have one and I have it's running mate.
               
              Your package is on the way by the way... been a rough week at work. Worked until 10:00 pm last night.. and that was my 40th birthday...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 3:23:05 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] high selling vintage HO

               

               
               

                      Just wonder if others have noted some vintage HO items on Ebay and the prices they have gone for in the last 2 weeks.
               
                  Penn Line Reading Crusader                             $ 900+
                  Rivarossi  Hiawatha ( Factory painted )               $ 666   And I honestly expected it to go much higher
                  Varney Yellowstone ( No motor, no tender )        $ 398
               
               
                   There is a nice hard to find vintage piece for sale right now, mislabeled, in decent condition. I won't mention what as I might drive the price up on a member bidding on it ( no not me as I have one which is my limit ).
               
                                                                          Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14657 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: Re: high selling vintage HO
              Art, I think everyone's surprised at the comparatively low price that
              Crusader went for, as it appeared to be in good shape. The one main drawback is
              that it I didn't have the trailing truck -- which I don't know any of that
              can even be substituted. I don't know if they'd fetch $1500, like you have
              in yours, but then in this case the box does add to it considerably. Some
              of us remember one from last year that had a small dent in the boiler.
              Naturally, that took away from its value a bit, but I don't remember what it went
              for. From what has appeared in recent years, it looks like good ones
              (excellent condition) have been averaging about $1200, but I'm not about to say
              if that's low or high; it really all depends on who's watching these
              particular auctions and when. Ray F.W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14658 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
              So Sean, Then you weren't even born yet when the ' 67 and ' 69 Mustangs
              were built. I find that quite surprising since I would have thought your
              affection for these cars came from past memories of them when they were first
              the rage -- back then. Thought maybe you had one of them perhaps as your
              first car. I remember working on them quite often, with many different types of
              repairs/rebuilds, when I was in Ford mechanics. I particularly liked
              working on those cars -- the first ones that I became familiar with were the
              "1964 & 1/2" which came out in mid 1964, not as most others cars that first came
              out in September of the previous year. I still have a ' 69 Mustang Boss
              302 engine sitting on my garage floor right now, in great shape as I took it
              out of one of my own cars after rebuilding it -- and a heavy-duty C-6
              transmission that went with it. Let me know if you ever need either one, if you're
              in a bind for finding one, but then you probably prefer the 4-speed
              Borg-Warner T-10 tranny if you're really in it for speed. Ciao, Ray F.W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14659 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
              Hi Ray!  You are very right!
               
              I even had a 1946 GMC panel truck back in 1989!
              My love afair with the Mustang started when I was 14 and had a paper route. There was a farmer's field at the end of the route. In the field were two mustangs. The farmer told me he wanted $50 for the green one and $100 for the black one because it was a whole car. My dad said NO WAY!
               
              One was a complete 70 flat black coupe with a 302. The second was a light green metalic 69 fastback missing the front clip. I still remember the long slender tail lights.. That's right.. it was a Shelby! GT500 to be exact... I could have had it for $50. It was gone within a year after that.
               
              To this day remind my dad of that every chance I get.  
               
              I took the pic in the link below shortly after buying my first stang in 1995: 
               
              The link above is of my first stang was a 69 coupe with a straight 6.  I had seen it sitting on the side of a street in downtown Pittsburgh, PA on my way to PITT university in 1993, two years before I purchased it.   It needed a paint job but it was still pretty nice. It was on my way to class, so I left the mystery owner a note to call me if he ever decides to sell.  
               
              Two years later, in 1995, on a Wednesday I answered a phone call from a guy asking if I was still interested in his car (who turned-out to be my old philosophy professor). He mentioned my note. I never told anyone about my note, so I new it was not a joke..
               
              He was leaving town at the end of the week, on Saturday and he needed to sell it right away. I looked at it on Friday July 4, asked him how much he wanted for it and he said.. $300.. I told him, in a one day notice, all I had was $150, so he said ok. I was a poor college student at the time.
               
              I towed it home, put a batery in it and it fired right-up! It sat at my ex-girlfriend's parrents house for 2.5 more years, until I was single again in 1997.  
               
              It took me about 6 months to get it on the road legally. Three months later, it was a parts car for the one I am building now.   Some idiot parked on the highway at night, on a left-hand bend, in the right-hand turning lane, right in front of a parking lot.
               
              I never saw the minivan's lights with all the lights from the parked cars, until I was about 4 car lengths away... I don't think I need to mention, old mustangs are good for straight runs, not curves.... Needless to say, I missed him, but hit the curb, flipped up onto my side and slid backwards down the highway about 80-100 feet before hitting the other curb on the otherside of the highway and slamming back onto my wheels.  
               
              Walked away without a scratch, but totaled a rust free callifornia car. (that is right, I paid $150 in 1995 for a rust free callifornia car - complete car) ...   The guy I narrowly missed that had been sitting in the highway.. I saw him pulling away as I was getting out of my car. Six cop cars and an ambulance showed-up. I had to sign a release stating I was OK. 
               
              I have been collecting parts for the past 6 years now. I started with a bare naked shell and nothing else... nothing... It was originally a in-line 6 car with no bells and whistles, so I am free to do whatever I please. The only used parts not originally pulled from a 69 mustang are the power steering center link and the door window mechanics. They are from a 1970.  I'll be happy to take that BOSS 302 off your hands..
               
              What's your price?
               
              Sean
               
               
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 7:36:43 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] O/T; was, high selling vintage HO

               

              So Sean, Then you weren't even born yet when the ' 67 and ' 69 Mustangs
              were built. I find that quite surprising since I would have thought your
              affection for these cars came from past memories of them when they were first
              the rage -- back then. Thought maybe you had one of them perhaps as your
              first car. I remember working on them quite often, with many different types of
              repairs/rebuilds, when I was in Ford mechanics. I particularly liked
              working on those cars -- the first ones that I became familiar with were the
              "1964 & 1/2" which came out in mid 1964, not as most others cars that first came
              out in September of the previous year. I still have a ' 69 Mustang Boss
              302 engine sitting on my garage floor right now, in great shape as I took it
              out of one of my own cars after rebuilding it -- and a heavy-duty C-6
              transmission that went with it. Let me know if you ever need either one, if you're
              in a bind for finding one, but then you probably prefer the 4-speed
              Borg-Warner T-10 tranny if you're really in it for speed. Ciao, Ray F.W. </HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14660 From: jim heckard Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: step / coke effect almost gone
               
               

                       Well I played body and fender man tonight and got rid of the step / coke bottle effect on my 4-4-4-2 Beast that I got. I got the rough part filled in and now I am starting to "spot putty". I got the back at the seam done and when it dries I will do the front towards the boiler band and the smooth sand it. I took the extra turret box off.  Probably will need the extra dome now. 
               
                     Question.  Should I fashion a boiler strap in the middle of the two straps I am working at ?
               
                  I used    Permatex  PERMA OXYtm 4 minute Multi-Metal     to fill in the space. I am also using it as a spot putty but you have to use it in the first minute while it is real wet. I use a straight edged piece of cardboard to apply it. Won't be much fine sanding needed to get a good look.
               
                                                               Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14661 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone [2 Attachments]
              I would put a boiler band in the center of that space.  I would look about the same spacing that is now over the current firebox.  It's really looking good.
              Don Staton in VA
              ==============================================================

              On 7/30/2010 8:29 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               
               

                       Well I played body and fender man tonight and got rid of the step / coke bottle effect on my 4-4-4-2 Beast that I got. I got the rough part filled in and now I am starting to "spot putty". I got the back at the seam done and when it dries I will do the front towards the boiler band and the smooth sand it. I took the extra turret box off.  Probably will need the extra dome now. 
               
                     Question.  Should I fashion a boiler strap in the middle of the two straps I am working at ?
               
                  I used    Permatex  PERMA OXYtm 4 minute Multi-Metal     to fill in the space. I am also using it as a spot putty but you have to use it in the first minute while it is real wet. I use a straight edged piece of cardboard to apply it. Won't be much fine sanding needed to get a good look.
               
                                                               Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14662 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone
              I agree with Don Jim. needs a band.. just a thin strip of brass or the like.
               
              Looks great!
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 8:41:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] step / coke effect almost gone

               

              I would put a boiler band in the center of that space.  I would look about the same spacing that is now over the current firebox.  It's really looking good.
              Don Staton in VA
              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

              On 7/30/2010 8:29 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               
               

                       Well I played body and fender man tonight and got rid of the step / coke bottle effect on my 4-4-4-2 Beast that I got. I got the rough part filled in and now I am starting to "spot putty". I got the back at the seam done and when it dries I will do the front towards the boiler band and the smooth sand it. I took the extra turret box off.  Probably will need the extra dome now. 
               
                     Question.  Should I fashion a boiler strap in the middle of the two straps I am working at ?
               
                  I used    Permatex  PERMA OXYtm 4 minute Multi-Metal     to fill in the space. I am also using it as a spot putty but you have to use it in the first minute while it is real wet. I use a straight edged piece of cardboard to apply it. Won't be much fine sanding needed to get a good look.
               
                                                               Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14663 From: jim heckard Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: Re: high selling vintage HO
                    I got my Penn Line Reading Crusader in 1988 while a member, and from a member, of the HOSC&H-SIG group. It had one small problem mechanically in that one of the valve gear parts that hung from the shrouding wasn't attach. The slightly bigger problem was it was painted black with the aluminum much like the NYC Empire State Express. The previous owner was from Long Island so that might be the reason for the colors.
               
                    I stripped the black and repainted a blue like Reading. Again I spray painted it using a can. If you want to see the engine look at the my Penn Line Engines in the photo section or in the Gallery section of hoseeker. I doubt you will notice any color problem or less of a paint job.
               
                  About that time Champion was making special decal orders on an ALPS printer. I had a friend lend me an original set of Penn Line decals and 12 of us got together and orders 20 sets ( the minimum ) I think they were $12 a set. And they were perfect in color. Even had the little Reading Diamond insignia for the nose of the Crusader.
               
                  I hate to mention what I paid for this so lets just say less then $226.
                                                                                          
               
                                                                           Jim Heckard
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: luvprr@...
              Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] high selling vintage HO

               

              I have a Penn Line Crusader with original box and plans which I paid $600 more for than the mentioned one just went for. I'd seriously consider selling it, but with the fickle economy I'd probably end up getting less than the the recent one in open bidding.
               
              In a message dated 7/30/2010 3:52:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com writes:


              I think I know the piece Jim! If it is, I have a bid set... I don't have one and I have it's running mate.
               
              Your package is on the way by the way... been a rough week at work. Worked until 10:00 pm last night.. and that was my 40th birthday...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 3:23:05 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] high selling vintage HO

               

               
               

                      Just wonder if others have noted some vintage HO items on Ebay and the prices they have gone for in the last 2 weeks.
               
                  Penn Line Reading Crusader                             $ 900+
                  Rivarossi  Hiawatha ( Factory painted )               $ 666   And I honestly expected it to go much higher
                  Varney Yellowstone ( No motor, no tender )        $ 398
               
               
                   There is a nice hard to find vintage piece for sale right now, mislabeled, in decent condition. I won't mention what as I might drive the price up on a member bidding on it ( no not me as I have one which is my limit ).
               
                                                                          Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14664 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: Re: high selling vintage HO
              Could not have looked any worse than mine Jim!
               
               
              I think my previous owner had the same thoughts about the paint scheme.
               
              I think it was you that arranged for the new decals for me.. which are safely tucked away waithing for use..
               
              I paid a bit more at $710 +/-
               
              Sean

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 8:54:51 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] high selling vintage HO

               

                    I got my Penn Line Reading Crusader in 1988 while a member, and from a member, of the HOSC&H-SIG group. It had one small problem mechanically in that one of the valve gear parts that hung from the shrouding wasn't attach. The slightly bigger problem was it was painted black with the aluminum much like the NYC Empire State Express. The previous owner was from Long Island so that might be the reason for the colors.
               
                    I stripped the black and repainted a blue like Reading. Again I spray painted it using a can. If you want to see the engine look at the my Penn Line Engines in the photo section or in the Gallery section of hoseeker. I doubt you will notice any color problem or less of a paint job.
               
                  About that time Champion was making special decal orders on an ALPS printer. I had a friend lend me an original set of Penn Line decals and 12 of us got together and orders 20 sets ( the minimum ) I think they were $12 a set. And they were perfect in color. Even had the little Reading Diamond insignia for the nose of the Crusader.
               
                  I hate to mention what I paid for this so lets just say less then $226.
                                                                                          
               
                                                                           Jim Heckard
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: luvprr@...
              Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] high selling vintage HO

               

              I have a Penn Line Crusader with original box and plans which I paid $600 more for than the mentioned one just went for. I'd seriously consider selling it, but with the fickle economy I'd probably end up getting less than the the recent one in open bidding.
               
              In a message dated 7/30/2010 3:52:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com writes:


              I think I know the piece Jim! If it is, I have a bid set... I don't have one and I have it's running mate.
               
              Your package is on the way by the way... been a rough week at work. Worked until 10:00 pm last night.. and that was my 40th birthday...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 3:23:05 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] high selling vintage HO

               

               
               

                      Just wonder if others have noted some vintage HO items on Ebay and the prices they have gone for in the last 2 weeks.
               
                  Penn Line Reading Crusader                             $ 900+
                  Rivarossi  Hiawatha ( Factory painted )               $ 666   And I honestly expected it to go much higher
                  Varney Yellowstone ( No motor, no tender )        $ 398
               
               
                   There is a nice hard to find vintage piece for sale right now, mislabeled, in decent condition. I won't mention what as I might drive the price up on a member bidding on it ( no not me as I have one which is my limit ).
               
                                                                          Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14665 From: jim heckard Date: 7/30/2010
              Subject: Penn Line Crusader decals
               
              Sean,
               
                   You are right about getting your Penn Line Crusader decals through me. Actually my Penn Line Expert from Boyertown got them made and used one of his originals sets . We found a gentleman from the Harrisburg area who sold on Ebay. He custom painted items and made decals. Actually his wife makes the decals
               
                  I remember how persistent she was to get the color just right. I know my Penn Line friend got some extra sets at the time and you got one / some . I have forgotten what they cost. I don't know how well they worked out but they looked good.
               
                  My Penn Line friend ( not a Yahoo member so I don't want to use his name ) has 7 Penn Line Reading Crusaders one of which I found him a few years back. It was on Ebay and mislabeled as just a streamlined steam engine and it sold fairly cheap. With so many more people looking and being better schooled in what they are looking for it's hard to find a hidden PL Crusader gem anymore.
               
                                                                                        Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14666 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/31/2010
              Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
              Sean, That was a real killer, having to let that Shelby go away. $150 for
              that ' 69 coupe was an absolute steal though -- just too bad it was
              totaled. But then, you may have even felt worse if it were the Shelby that got
              totaled, had you been able to buy it; probably hard to say. Speaking about
              totaled, that's just why I pulled this enigine and trans. Some guy was
              teaching his kid how to drive, and as I was coming down the main street this kid
              drove right though a stop sign at road speed into the right side of my car --
              never even slowed down until my car stopped him. At the last second, I saw
              him coming out of the right corner of my eye, and even swerved over onto the
              left side of the road to try to avoid him since there was no traffic coming
              the other way, but it made no difference. The father traded places with
              him, and then told the police that it was me who drove through the stop sign
              but there were witnesses there who told the police the truth. Fortunately, I
              wasn't even scratched.

              On the engine, I guess we can take this off-line, but I see them on e-bay
              for all different kinds of prices, from $1400 up to $8700, and all prices in
              between -- but the high end ones really have the works, with roller cams,
              etc. I'd have to figure what's fair and get back to you. Ray</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14667 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/31/2010
              Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone [2 Attachments]
              Looks real good Jim. I go along with ther other guys -- it could use
              another band. Not to make more work for you, but you might want to consider
              grinding off the band in front of the patch and center the new one between the
              band at the rear of the patch and the next band forward of the repair. Ray
              F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14668 From: Chris B Date: 7/31/2010
              Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
              Sean!!!  "I even had a 1946 GMC panel truck back in 1989!"
              My first car was a 53 Buick special with a straight 8 that I rebuilt on my apt living room floor! 

              I went on to eventually have a one man antique furniture restoration shop (The Rocker Doctor) on 18 acres in Takoma Park Md,
              where I could have as many sidehobby project cars and trucks as I wanted! 

              Fast forward 25 years, and I went through a big change, and moved to the city and lived car free for a decade, then remarried and I share one basic sedan quite happily.

              Now I get my kicks rebuilding old all metal diesels with Hobbytown drives that remind me of that straight 8 with the dynaflow tranny and the 2 foot high tube radio...  Basically I'm building diecast and brass rat rods with unpainted shells and killer drives!

              But I'm really writing because the only one out of more than 50 antique cars and trucks I went through that I would pay blood to own again, the one I kick myself for ever selling, was the one that was my shop truck and constant companion for all the years I had my shop..

              It was a 1946 GMC 3/4 ton long bed pickup with straight cut gears, a power take off, the pre-war body style with the headlights up above the fenders and the crank out front windshield...It hauled all over the area, took me to west virginia and back dozens of times with a bed full of hardwood logs from trees cut down with a 6 ft two man saw.

              I always rented, and still rent, Mustang convertibles for transportation whenever I'm on travel, business or personal, and I can totally relate to your obsession.

              but damn, there is something about those wasp-waisted old-time pickups that reminds me of streamlined steam locomotives and WWII USAF fighter planes!


              Chris B.



              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 7:50:08 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] O/T; was, high selling vintage HO

               

              Hi Ray!  You are very right!
               
              I even had a 1946 GMC panel truck back in 1989!
              My love afair with the Mustang started when I was 14 and had a paper route. There was a farmer's field at the end of the route. In the field were two mustangs. The farmer told me he wanted $50 for the green one and $100 for the black one because it was a whole car. My dad said NO WAY!
               
              One was a complete 70 flat black coupe with a 302. The second was a light green metalic 69 fastback missing the front clip. I still remember the long slender tail lights.. That's right.. it was a Shelby! GT500 to be exact... I could have had it for $50. It was gone within a year after that.
               
              To this day remind my dad of that every chance I get.  
               
              I took the pic in the link below shortly after buying my first stang in 1995: 
               
              The link above is of my first stang was a 69 coupe with a straight 6.  I had seen it sitting on the side of a street in downtown Pittsburgh, PA on my way to PITT university in 1993, two years before I purchased it.   It needed a paint job but it was still pretty nice. It was on my way to class, so I left the mystery owner a note to call me if he ever decides to sell.  
               
              Two years later, in 1995, on a Wednesday I answered a phone call from a guy asking if I was still interested in his car (who turned-out to be my old philosophy professor). He mentioned my note. I never told anyone about my note, so I new it was not a joke..
               
              He was leaving town at the end of the week, on Saturday and he needed to sell it right away. I looked at it on Friday July 4, asked him how much he wanted for it and he said.. $300.. I told him, in a one day notice, all I had was $150, so he said ok. I was a poor college student at the time.
               
              I towed it home, put a batery in it and it fired right-up! It sat at my ex-girlfriend' s parrents house for 2.5 more years, until I was single again in 1997.  
               
              It took me about 6 months to get it on the road legally. Three months later, it was a parts car for the one I am building now.   Some idiot parked on the highway at night, on a left-hand bend, in the right-hand turning lane, right in front of a parking lot.
               
              I never saw the minivan's lights with all the lights from the parked cars, until I was about 4 car lengths away... I don't think I need to mention, old mustangs are good for straight runs, not curves.... Needless to say, I missed him, but hit the curb, flipped up onto my side and slid backwards down the highway about 80-100 feet before hitting the other curb on the otherside of the highway and slamming back onto my wheels.  
               
              Walked away without a scratch, but totaled a rust free callifornia car. (that is right, I paid $150 in 1995 for a rust free callifornia car - complete car) ...   The guy I narrowly missed that had been sitting in the highway.. I saw him pulling away as I was getting out of my car. Six cop cars and an ambulance showed-up. I had to sign a release stating I was OK. 
               
              I have been collecting parts for the past 6 years now. I started with a bare naked shell and nothing else... nothing... It was originally a in-line 6 car with no bells and whistles, so I am free to do whatever I please. The only used parts not originally pulled from a 69 mustang are the power steering center link and the door window mechanics. They are from a 1970.  I'll be happy to take that BOSS 302 off your hands..
               
              What's your price?
               
              Sean
               
               
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 7:36:43 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] O/T; was, high selling vintage HO

               

              So Sean, Then you weren't even born yet when the ' 67 and ' 69 Mustangs
              were built. I find that quite surprising since I would have thought your
              affection for these cars came from past memories of them when they were first
              the rage -- back then. Thought maybe you had one of them perhaps as your
              first car. I remember working on them quite often, with many different types of
              repairs/rebuilds, when I was in Ford mechanics. I particularly liked
              working on those cars -- the first ones that I became familiar with were the
              "1964 & 1/2" which came out in mid 1964, not as most others cars that first came
              out in September of the previous year. I still have a ' 69 Mustang Boss
              302 engine sitting on my garage floor right now, in great shape as I took it
              out of one of my own cars after rebuilding it -- and a heavy-duty C-6
              transmission that went with it. Let me know if you ever need either one, if you're
              in a bind for finding one, but then you probably prefer the 4-speed
              Borg-Warner T-10 tranny if you're really in it for speed. Ciao, Ray F.W. </HTML>



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14669 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/31/2010
              Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
              Ray,

              Let me know how complete it is. What you think it needs to make it operational and give me a price and I will see what I can do. I have two sources for some parts, but either source will cost me. Maybe we can work something out. 

              Sean  

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jul 31, 2010, at 6:05 AM, erieberk@... wrote:

               

              Sean, That was a real killer, having to let that Shelby go away. $150 for
              that ' 69 coupe was an absolute steal though -- just too bad it was
              totaled. But then, you may have even felt worse if it were the Shelby that got
              totaled, had you been able to buy it; probably hard to say. Speaking about
              totaled, that's just why I pulled this enigine and trans. Some guy was
              teaching his kid how to drive, and as I was coming down the main street this kid
              drove right though a stop sign at road speed into the right side of my car --
              never even slowed down until my car stopped him. At the last second, I saw
              him coming out of the right corner of my eye, and even swerved over onto the
              left side of the road to try to avoid him since there was no traffic coming
              the other way, but it made no difference. The father traded places with
              him, and then told the police that it was me who drove through the stop sign
              but there were witnesses there who told the police the truth. Fortunately, I
              wasn't even scratched.

              On the engine, I guess we can take this off-line, but I see them on e-bay
              for all different kinds of prices, from $1400 up to $8700, and all prices in
              between -- but the high end ones really have the works, with roller cams,
              etc. I'd have to figure what's fair and get back to you. Ray</HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14670 From: Sean Naylor Date: 7/31/2010
              Subject: Re: O/T; was, high selling vintage HO
              Oh yeah.  I think my 4-speed Top-loader would fit just fine behind that engine and would be a good fit with my 9" rear end as well. 

              Sean 

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jul 30, 2010, at 7:36 PM, erieberk@... wrote:

               

              So Sean, Then you weren't even born yet when the ' 67 and ' 69 Mustangs
              were built. I find that quite surprising since I would have thought your
              affection for these cars came from past memories of them when they were first
              the rage -- back then. Thought maybe you had one of them perhaps as your
              first car. I remember working on them quite often, with many different types of
              repairs/rebuilds, when I was in Ford mechanics. I particularly liked
              working on those cars -- the first ones that I became familiar with were the
              "1964 & 1/2" which came out in mid 1964, not as most others cars that first came
              out in September of the previous year. I still have a ' 69 Mustang Boss
              302 engine sitting on my garage floor right now, in great shape as I took it
              out of one of my own cars after rebuilding it -- and a heavy-duty C-6
              transmission that went with it. Let me know if you ever need either one, if you're
              in a bind for finding one, but then you probably prefer the 4-speed
              Borg-Warner T-10 tranny if you're really in it for speed. Ciao, Ray F.W. </HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14671 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 7/31/2010
              Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone [2 Attachments]

              Jim,

              I think you are having way too much fun with this loco.  It is looking much better now and a boiler strap would be even better.  Go call on that too.

              Take care,

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 8:29 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] step / coke effect almost gone [2 Attachments]

               

               

               

               

               

                       Well I played body and fender man tonight and got rid of the step / coke bottle effect on my 4-4-4-2 Beast that I got. I got the rough part filled in and now I am starting to "spot putty". I got the back at the seam done and when it dries I will do the front towards the boiler band and the smooth sand it. I took the extra turret box off.  Probably will need the extra dome now. 

               

                     Question.  Should I fashion a boiler strap in the middle of the two straps I am working at ?

               

                  I used    Permatex  PERMA OXYtm 4 minute Multi-Metal     to fill in the space. I am also using it as a spot putty but you have to use it in the first minute while it is real wet. I use a straight edged piece of cardboard to apply it. Won't be much fine sanding needed to get a good look.

               

                                                               Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14672 From: jim heckard Date: 7/31/2010
              Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone
              Chuck,
               
                  I thought I had totally wasted $130 buying this just to see how it was engineered / tracked / ran but yes now I am enjoying reworking it to see if I can make something better of it. Helps to clear the brain fog thinking how to go about this.
               
                                                                        Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 3:07 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] step / coke effect almost gone

               

              Jim,

              I think you are having way too much fun with this loco.  It is looking much better now and a boiler strap would be even better.  Go call on that too.

              Take care,

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community. webshots. com/user/ lordon104


              From: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 8:29 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] step / coke effect almost gone [2 Attachments]

               

               

                       Well I played body and fender man tonight and got rid of the step / coke bottle effect on my 4-4-4-2 Beast that I got. I got the rough part filled in and now I am starting to "spot putty". I got the back at the seam done and when it dries I will do the front towards the boiler band and the smooth sand it. I took the extra turret box off.  Probably will need the extra dome now. 

                     Question.  Should I fashion a boiler strap in the middle of the two straps I am working at ?

                  I used    Permatex  PERMA OXYtm 4 minute Multi-Metal     to fill in the space. I am also using it as a spot putty but you have to use it in the first minute while it is real wet. I use a straight edged piece of cardboard to apply it. Won't be much fine sanding needed to get a good look.

                                                               Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14673 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 7/31/2010
              Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone
              Jim, I just HAD to ask -- when will you be giving out those "Atta Boys" ? <
              g >. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14674 From: jim heckard Date: 8/1/2010
              Subject: Re: step / coke effect almost gone
              Hi Ray,
               
                  My mind is a total blank on the "Atta Boys". Son's wedding next Saturday and things a bit hectic. Have to go back and read my post. I think it had something to do with the odd Mantua engine and suggestions from members on how it worked before I got it. Please refresh my memory. If I missed recognizing the right people I'm truly sorry. I've also had many good suggestions on how to proceed now and I might be lax here also.
               
                                                                      Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 1:16 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] step / coke effect almost gone

               

              Jim, I just HAD to ask -- when will you be giving out those "Atta Boys" ? <
              g >. Ray F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14675 From: jim heckard Date: 8/1/2010
              Subject: Update on the Beast
               
               
               
               
                  While not an earth shattering event I now have the Mantua Modified Beast running on my test circle of track, taking the 18'"radius turns , going through two switches and pulling 10 old Marx freight cars on level track. It is only together temporarily so I could get an idea if things I did to improve traction / pulling power would work.   I did add weight over the one set of geared drivers ( as many suggested ) and also slightly lowered this front geared set of drivers (of the back the group ) to get weight of the drivers more on the rails. Still using that little Mantua open frame motor and doubt I will need a traction tire
               
                 I'm very pleased with the result. I can add more weight if wanted but it would pull a few more cars now as is. Don't need a 100. The only small problem is I need a Mantua conical spring in the trailing truck to track it better. No problem.  Parts on order from the man.
               
                 Enough success on the main two original problems that I am actually thinking of doing some super detailing. It looks good running on track, pulling cars and the over hang of the boiler not bad enough to hit trains on nearby side by side tracks. It's definitely a oner.
               
               
                                                                                     Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14676 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 8/1/2010
              Subject: MRH August Newsletter Available On Line
              The August News report from Model Railroad Hobbyist eZine is now available
              free at www.model-railroad-hobbyist.com/mrh_news_online/aug-2010

              Richard Bale
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14677 From: the_plainsman Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Update on the Beast
              Hi Jim H., It has been both fun and an education to follow your step by step resurrection of and improvements to "the Beast." I have been spending time these past few weeks buying and reading more back issues of the magazines and this model reminds me of the heydays of "free-lance" locomotive building and how that was a popular large part of the hobby back then. With your modifications and improvements, this is turning out to be a model that the late Bill Schopp would be proud to publish an article about (and exhibits much better attention to finishing and details than his work, too, LOL)! W. Jay W.




              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > While not an earth shattering event I now have the Mantua Modified Beast running on my test circle of track, taking the 18'"radius turns , going through two switches and pulling 10 old Marx freight cars on level track. It is only together temporarily so I could get an idea if things I did to improve traction / pulling power would work. I did add weight over the one set of geared drivers ( as many suggested ) and also slightly lowered this front geared set of drivers (of the back the group ) to get weight of the drivers more on the rails. Still using that little Mantua open frame motor and doubt I will need a traction tire
              >
              > I'm very pleased with the result. I can add more weight if wanted but it would pull a few more cars now as is. Don't need a 100. The only small problem is I need a Mantua conical spring in the trailing truck to track it better. No problem. Parts on order from the man.
              >
              > Enough success on the main two original problems that I am actually thinking of doing some super detailing. It looks good running on track, pulling cars and the over hang of the boiler not bad enough to hit trains on nearby side by side tracks. It's definitely a oner.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14678 From: Chris B Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Update on the Beast
              I was thinking Mel Thornburgh but that's really showing some gray hairs!

              For those born after color tv, Mel's series of articles on scratchbuilding a ten wheeler ran in Model Railroader during the Civil War years!

              Jim, all kidding aside, I bet RMC would give this a serious chance at publication...

              Chris B.
              From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...>
              Sender: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:48:44 -0000
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Update on the Beast

               

              Hi Jim H., It has been both fun and an education to follow your step by step resurrection of and improvements to "the Beast." I have been spending time these past few weeks buying and reading more back issues of the magazines and this model reminds me of the heydays of "free-lance" locomotive building and how that was a popular large part of the hobby back then. With your modifications and improvements, this is turning out to be a model that the late Bill Schopp would be proud to publish an article about (and exhibits much better attention to finishing and details than his work, too, LOL)! W. Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > While not an earth shattering event I now have the Mantua Modified Beast running on my test circle of track, taking the 18'"radius turns , going through two switches and pulling 10 old Marx freight cars on level track. It is only together temporarily so I could get an idea if things I did to improve traction / pulling power would work. I did add weight over the one set of geared drivers ( as many suggested ) and also slightly lowered this front geared set of drivers (of the back the group ) to get weight of the drivers more on the rails. Still using that little Mantua open frame motor and doubt I will need a traction tire
              >
              > I'm very pleased with the result. I can add more weight if wanted but it would pull a few more cars now as is. Don't need a 100. The only small problem is I need a Mantua conical spring in the trailing truck to track it better. No problem. Parts on order from the man.
              >
              > Enough success on the main two original problems that I am actually thinking of doing some super detailing. It looks good running on track, pulling cars and the over hang of the boiler not bad enough to hit trains on nearby side by side tracks. It's definitely a oner.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14679 From: MikeS Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Update on the Beast
              Thoroughly enjoying your "beast" project. Wonderful to resurrect those beyond hope and you are doing it.

              A tip of the old fedora to you!!

              Mike Spanier

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > While not an earth shattering event I now have the Mantua Modified Beast running on my test circle of track, taking the 18'"radius turns , going through two switches and pulling 10 old Marx freight cars on level track. It is only together temporarily so I could get an idea if things I did to improve traction / pulling power would work. I did add weight over the one set of geared drivers ( as many suggested ) and also slightly lowered this front geared set of drivers (of the back the group ) to get weight of the drivers more on the rails. Still using that little Mantua open frame motor and doubt I will need a traction tire
              >
              > I'm very pleased with the result. I can add more weight if wanted but it would pull a few more cars now as is. Don't need a 100. The only small problem is I need a Mantua conical spring in the trailing truck to track it better. No problem. Parts on order from the man.
              >
              > Enough success on the main two original problems that I am actually thinking of doing some super detailing. It looks good running on track, pulling cars and the over hang of the boiler not bad enough to hit trains on nearby side by side tracks. It's definitely a oner.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14680 From: jim heckard Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Update on the Beast
              W Jay W, Chris B,
               
                        Thank You for the kind words. This project is a little out of my normal areas of HO but is turning into something very enjoyable. I like sharing what I am learning and like the exchange with all members who have thoughts and suggestions to help me . Believe me every one of them is filed for later use possibilities. The good results I accomplish make me want to take things a step further. This won't happen over night.
               
                   As for RMC or MR. Over the years I was never good enough to have anything I ever submitted , my first layout, my vintage collection or my modeling of HO trains and buildings, to be considered let alone any response and I don't want anything to do with them. I find enough enjoyment and satisfaction just sharing with members of this and other Yahoo groups, along with many others outside these groups. And I will continue to do so.
               
                                                                     Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              To: Vint Ho
              Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:24 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Update on the Beast

               

              I was thinking Mel Thornburgh but that's really showing some gray hairs!

              For those born after color tv, Mel's series of articles on scratchbuilding a ten wheeler ran in Model Railroader during the Civil War years!

              Jim, all kidding aside, I bet RMC would give this a serious chance at publication. ..

              Chris B.


              From: "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@ yahoo.com>
              Sender: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:48:44 -0000
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com>
              ReplyTo: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Update on the Beast

               

              Hi Jim H., It has been both fun and an education to follow your step by step resurrection of and improvements to "the Beast." I have been spending time these past few weeks buying and reading more back issues of the magazines and this model reminds me of the heydays of "free-lance" locomotive building and how that was a popular large part of the hobby back then. With your modifications and improvements, this is turning out to be a model that the late Bill Schopp would be proud to publish an article about (and exhibits much better attention to finishing and details than his work, too, LOL)! W. Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > While not an earth shattering event I now have the Mantua Modified Beast running on my test circle of track, taking the 18'"radius turns , going through two switches and pulling 10 old Marx freight cars on level track. It is only together temporarily so I could get an idea if things I did to improve traction / pulling power would work. I did add weight over the one set of geared drivers ( as many suggested ) and also slightly lowered this front geared set of drivers (of the back the group ) to get weight of the drivers more on the rails. Still using that little Mantua open frame motor and doubt I will need a traction tire
              >
              > I'm very pleased with the result. I can add more weight if wanted but it would pull a few more cars now as is. Don't need a 100. The only small problem is I need a Mantua conical spring in the trailing truck to track it better. No problem. Parts on order from the man.
              >
              > Enough success on the main two original problems that I am actually thinking of doing some super detailing. It looks good running on track, pulling cars and the over hang of the boiler not bad enough to hit trains on nearby side by side tracks. It's definitely a oner.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14681 From: jim heckard Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: train ride, please indulge me
               

               
               
                     This Saturday a long train ride ( to make it site relative ) to almost no where will come to a happy conclusion. Our 24 year old son, our baby, will be married. While this is a great event by itself a little history here is important.
               
                 In 2003 our son was to be a Junior in high school, number two in his class, a photographic memory, a 3 sport athlete who played piano at a concert level. That day in  July it almost all ended. David had bleeds in the brain that required brain surgery and not associated with any trauma. The first brain surgery, that he walked into, was "botched". The neurosurgeon did not finish the surgery and even changed the diagnosis to something else that was found to be entirely wrong. A massive bleed in the recovery room after this surgery almost took his life and left him paralyzed. He survived and fought back till a fourth bleed almost took him out again requiring two more surgeries at another trauma center to finish the same operation that was not completed the first time. These first two brain surgeries meant the top of his skull coming off. The last thankfully was done through a hole in the skull.
               
                He was left permanently paralyzed in his right and dominate arm and with a slight limp. His indomitable spirit allowed him to survive and finish his high school with his class making up lost time in the summer and doubling up in his senior year. Although his IQ suffered, he was now considered an average student, he managed to finish 5th in his class. Needless to say no more sports, no more piano. With help from the Pennsylvania Office of Vocational Rehabilitation he finished 4 years of college with a major in Criminal Justice and a minor in Psychology at Lebanon Valley College where he met his future wife. He now works with autistic children.
               
                So please indulge us in being a doubly happy Father and Mother for him overcoming adversity at it's highest level. When he WALKS down the aisle at the Chapel at Lebanon Valley there will be two very happy, proud and thankful parents.
               
                 You would not like to hear nor be able to guess the total cost associated with this.
                 
                  Mr. Moderator thank you for letting me tell this..
               
                                                                     Jim H
               
                
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14682 From: gary pardue Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: train ride, please indulge me
              Jim,
              Many congratulations to your whole family. My very best wishes to the Bride and Groom!!!!!

              From the Hills of Virginia
              Gary Pardue

              --- On Mon, 8/2/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] train ride, please indulge me
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 1:58 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >  
              >        This
              > Saturday a long train ride ( to make it site
              > relative ) to almost no
              > where will come to a happy conclusion. Our 24 year old
              > son, our baby, will be
              > married. While this is a great event by itself a little
              > history here is
              > important.
              >  
              >    In 2003 our
              > son was to be a
              > Junior in high school, number two in his class, a
              > photographic memory, a
              > 3 sport athlete who played piano at a concert level. That
              > day in
              >  July it almost all ended. David had bleeds in the
              > brain that required
              > brain surgery and not associated with any trauma. The
              > first brain surgery,
              > that he walked into, was "botched". The
              > neurosurgeon did not finish the
              > surgery and even changed the diagnosis to something else
              > that was found to be
              > entirely wrong. A massive bleed in the recovery room
              > after this surgery almost
              > took his life and left him paralyzed. He survived and
              > fought back till a
              > fourth bleed almost took him out again requiring two more
              > surgeries at another
              > trauma center to finish the same operation that was not
              > completed the first
              > time. These first two brain surgeries meant the top of
              > his skull coming off.
              > The last thankfully was done through a hole in the
              > skull.
              >  
              >   He was left
              > permanently paralyzed in his
              > right and dominate arm and with a slight limp. His
              > indomitable spirit allowed
              > him to survive and finish his high school with his class
              > making up lost
              > time in the summer and doubling up in his senior
              > year. Although his IQ
              > suffered, he was now considered an average student, he
              > managed to finish 5th
              > in his class. Needless to say no more sports, no more
              > piano. With help from
              > the Pennsylvania Office of Vocational Rehabilitation he
              > finished 4 years of
              > college with a major in Criminal Justice and a minor in
              > Psychology at Lebanon
              > Valley College where he met his future wife. He now works
              > with autistic
              > children.
              >  
              >   So please
              > indulge us in being a
              > doubly happy Father and Mother for him overcoming
              > adversity at it's
              > highest level. When he WALKS down the aisle at the Chapel
              > at Lebanon Valley
              > there will be two very happy, proud and thankful
              > parents.
              >  
              >    You would
              > not like to hear nor be
              > able to guess the total cost associated with
              > this.
              >    
              >     Mr.
              > Moderator thank you for
              > letting me tell this..
              >  
              >                                                       
              >
              > Jim H
              >  
              >   
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14683 From: Chris B Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: train ride, please indulge me
              Congratulations to the lucky couple, your whole family, and one blue chip vintage FOTG (Father of the Groom)!!
              From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
              Sender: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:58:58 -0400
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] train ride, please indulge me

               

               

               
               
                     This Saturday a long train ride ( to make it site relative ) to almost no where will come to a happy conclusion. Our 24 year old son, our baby, will be married. While this is a great event by itself a little history here is important.
               
                 In 2003 our son was to be a Junior in high school, number two in his class, a photographic memory, a 3 sport athlete who played piano at a concert level. That day in  July it almost all ended. David had bleeds in the brain that required brain surgery and not associated with any trauma. The first brain surgery, that he walked into, was "botched". The neurosurgeon did not finish the surgery and even changed the diagnosis to something else that was found to be entirely wrong. A massive bleed in the recovery room after this surgery almost took his life and left him paralyzed. He survived and fought back till a fourth bleed almost took him out again requiring two more surgeries at another trauma center to finish the same operation that was not completed the first time. These first two brain surgeries meant the top of his skull coming off. The last thankfully was done through a hole in the skull.
               
                He was left permanently paralyzed in his right and dominate arm and with a slight limp. His indomitable spirit allowed him to survive and finish his high school with his class making up lost time in the summer and doubling up in his senior year. Although his IQ suffered, he was now considered an average student, he managed to finish 5th in his class. Needless to say no more sports, no more piano. With help from the Pennsylvania Office of Vocational Rehabilitation he finished 4 years of college with a major in Criminal Justice and a minor in Psychology at Lebanon Valley College where he met his future wife. He now works with autistic children.
               
                So please indulge us in being a doubly happy Father and Mother for him overcoming adversity at it's highest level. When he WALKS down the aisle at the Chapel at Lebanon Valley there will be two very happy, proud and thankful parents.
               
                 You would not like to hear nor be able to guess the total cost associated with this.
                 
                  Mr. Moderator thank you for letting me tell this..
               
                                                                     Jim H
               
                
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14684 From: Garry Spear Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Varney Cardboard Sided Cars Listed on eBay
              I have listed 3 cardboard side Varney cars on eBay with two Varney and
              one Globe Boxes.

              Starting at $0.99. Very good to excellent condition.

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150474991772

              Anybody interested in a set of "OK" shorties. Unbuilt kits, New in Box.

              Garry Spear
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14685 From: jim heckard Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Update on the Beast
              Mike,
               
               For whatever reason your message just came through on my computer. Cyber space ? Thanks for thy comment
               
               
                                                             Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: MikeS
              Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:16 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Update on the Beast

               

              Thoroughly enjoying your "beast" project. Wonderful to resurrect those beyond hope and you are doing it.

              A tip of the old fedora to you!!

              Mike Spanier

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > While not an earth shattering event I now have the Mantua Modified Beast running on my test circle of track, taking the 18'"radius turns , going through two switches and pulling 10 old Marx freight cars on level track. It is only together temporarily so I could get an idea if things I did to improve traction / pulling power would work. I did add weight over the one set of geared drivers ( as many suggested ) and also slightly lowered this front geared set of drivers (of the back the group ) to get weight of the drivers more on the rails. Still using that little Mantua open frame motor and doubt I will need a traction tire
              >
              > I'm very pleased with the result. I can add more weight if wanted but it would pull a few more cars now as is. Don't need a 100. The only small problem is I need a Mantua conical spring in the trailing truck to track it better. No problem. Parts on order from the man.
              >
              > Enough success on the main two original problems that I am actually thinking of doing some super detailing. It looks good running on track, pulling cars and the over hang of the boiler not bad enough to hit trains on nearby side by side tracks. It's definitely a oner.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14686 From: rcjge Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Nice Varney, Steam Now Mantua Shark
              Hey Sean:

              Saw the Husky you have on ebay, does it have an under plate?

              Also do you still have the Mantua Shark you offered me? You'd said $16 + S&H but you never told me what the S&H would be...

              -Gareth


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              > @ Gareth... How's $16 + shipping? and I will blast the shell.
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14687 From: rcjge Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              Well Fella's I finally got me a Varney Super Mike! Probably overpaid at $168.00 or so considering the condition but it really is something I coveted.

              Any of you veteran Vintage guys want to weigh in on what you can glean from the pics I's appreciate it.

              Auction is here:

              http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190421884457&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

              It should arrive her in about a week.

              Regards,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14688 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              I think Bob Goforth has a following which helps keep the bidding up. I've bought items from him that cost an arm and a leg too.
               
              In a message dated 8/2/2010 7:40:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jgpedwards@... writes:
              Well Fella's I finally got me a Varney Super Mike! Probably overpaid at $168.00 or so considering the condition but it really is something I coveted.

              Any of you veteran Vintage guys want to weigh in on what you can glean from the pics I's appreciate it.

              Auction is here:

              http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190421884457&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

              It should arrive her in about a week.

              Regards,
              Gareth



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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14689 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              Overpaid?

              I don't think so.

              The photos are difficult to use as a judge, but a little disassembly, glass-bead, paint, clean and lube, and unless it's worn out, I would have paid $168 for one.

              Granted, mine was free, but now that I see what they are, yeah, I'd get another.

              The biggest issue on the loco is a stanchion or two and some new handrails.

              Mine has the Vanderbilt tender, but is aslo a 1949 and earlier boiler.

              The real issue on mine was that prior to storage, it had been disassembled and Lionel Lube had been used inside the motor extension.
              It had turned to concrete.

              Back off the setscrew, remove the brush holder end, snaps, and drive out the shaft.

              Runs smooth now!
              Dave


              > Well Fella's I finally got me a Varney Super Mike! Probably overpaid at $168.00 or so considering the condition but it really is something I coveted.
              >
              > Any of you veteran Vintage guys want to weigh in on what you can glean from the pics I's appreciate it.
              >
              > Auction is here:
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190421884457&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
              >
              > It should arrive her in about a week.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Gareth
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14690 From: rcjge Date: 8/2/2010
              Subject: Re: train ride, please indulge me
              Jim:

              Congrats to your boy and his beloved!

              I'd say his character has something to do with the parenting he's received. I'll bet your offspring would say so to!

              Regards,
              Gareth
              PS: to make this topical: Varney's RULE!!!

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > This Saturday a long train ride ( to make it site relative ) to almost no where will come to a happy conclusion. Our 24 year old son, our baby, will be married. While this is a great event by itself a little history here is important.
              >
              > In 2003 our son was to be a Junior in high school, number two in his class, a photographic memory, a 3 sport athlete who played piano at a concert level. That day in July it almost all ended. David had bleeds in the brain that required brain surgery and not associated with any trauma. The first brain surgery, that he walked into, was "botched". The neurosurgeon did not finish the surgery and even changed the diagnosis to something else that was found to be entirely wrong. A massive bleed in the recovery room after this surgery almost took his life and left him paralyzed. He survived and fought back till a fourth bleed almost took him out again requiring two more surgeries at another trauma center to finish the same operation that was not completed the first time. These first two brain surgeries meant the top of his skull coming off. The last thankfully was done through a hole in the skull.
              >
              > He was left permanently paralyzed in his right and dominate arm and with a slight limp. His indomitable spirit allowed him to survive and finish his high school with his class making up lost time in the summer and doubling up in his senior year. Although his IQ suffered, he was now considered an average student, he managed to finish 5th in his class. Needless to say no more sports, no more piano. With help from the Pennsylvania Office of Vocational Rehabilitation he finished 4 years of college with a major in Criminal Justice and a minor in Psychology at Lebanon Valley College where he met his future wife. He now works with autistic children.
              >
              > So please indulge us in being a doubly happy Father and Mother for him overcoming adversity at it's highest level. When he WALKS down the aisle at the Chapel at Lebanon Valley there will be two very happy, proud and thankful parents.
              >
              > You would not like to hear nor be able to guess the total cost associated with this.
              >
              > Mr. Moderator thank you for letting me tell this..
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14691 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: train ride, please indulge me
              Jim, Congratulations to your son and his wife on this happy occasion, and
              congrats also to you, the father of the groom. It's obvious by all the
              adversity he's experienced that he knows how to persevere to the extent of
              becoming a fine gentleman and a most valued member of our society. I'd have to
              bet he got those traits from his dad. My Best Wishes to the future bride &
              groom on their joyous day and in their marriage. Ray F.W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14692 From: jim heckard Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Boiler band
              Ray F W,
               
                         While I have a little break I wanted to respond to your suggestion about boiler bands on my odd engine. I had originally ask about putting a new boiler band in the space created where I fixed the coke bottle effect. You suggested was to think of taking off the boiler band in front of the repaired area and then put a new band in the middle of the entire space. You mentioned if possible. I have looked at this and the over all look would be better for.spacing but like you said I feel taking this forward band off might be a hard task. I will keep it in mind as it can be done late. I am now trying to take the ladder and large handrails off the plastic tender body that are cast on. Depending on how good I am able to do this might mean taking off that band from the metal boiler. Thanks for the suggestion.
               
                                                                                            Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14693 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              Gareth, Lots of luck with your new acquisition. It looks like with a
              little work, you'll have something very much worth adding to your collection.
              From what I can see of it, it doesn't look in too bad of shape. The major
              issue making it look much worse than what it really is, is the ratty looking
              paint job, which is only cosmetic. Once you strip it down and get a nice
              coat of paint on it, it will look like a million bucks. By the lousy photos, I
              see this engine's missing a few minor parts -- like the Pilot Flag
              Stanchions, Order Boards and Marker Lights -- which is no big deal. Looks like the
              tender is missing several steps, too.

              The engine handrails need replacing, as is obvious, but a real cinch to
              take care of. I'd get rid of that coupler sticking out of the pilot and either
              replace it with a KD or a Varney dummy coupler. All of the other details
              seem to be accounted for. You'll need to give the tender marker lights some
              attention as, at least one of them looks bent, but it looks like they're
              both there from what I can make out. Looks like you'll also have to do
              something about the tender's coal load floor. I don't know if someone was trying
              to convert this into an "oil burner," but the flat metal piece sitting where
              the coal should be sure looks out of place, especially on the angle it's at.

              This engine was valued at $120 in good condition, in 1991, almost 20 years
              ago. While it may not be in good condition, it has to be worth an
              additional $45 as it is today. The main feature is that it's a "Super" model, with
              sprung chassis and a V-2 motor, and there lies much of its value. I notice
              Bob Goforth sold this engine "as is," stating that it tries to run (but
              doesn't). Since you're already aware of that, I wouldn't even try to test it and
              risk burning out the motor (unless only for a brief moment at very low
              current). Disassemble the mechanism after removing it from the boiler by remove
              the motor from the chassis. Then, check out the running gear for a bind.
              The whole thing may only need a good cleaning and lube, but you'll see if
              more work is needed by how well it rolls without the motor being installed.
              Usually, Bob goes over everything and tunes and lubes his engines, making
              sure they run well, which is why he has the following that he does. He
              probably didn't do all that with this as he probably thought that investment
              wouldn't be returned, with the paint needing to be badly renewed.

              BTW, I sent out those John English Mike and Pacific plans to you this past
              Friday, so you should be getting them soon. Ray F.W.

              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14694 From: Dick Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              I'm rehabbing a Mantua Belle of the 80s that I picked up as a sad basket case, thank to some parts from Dan at Yardbird Trains. The current paint is a badly worn & scratched black with brass boiler bands.

              Looking at a 1946 instruction Mantua sheet that HOseeker has available, it says that the Belle kit came with a bottle of green paint part 571 and decalcomanias part 572. Does anyone know what color green this would have been? And what would the decals have looked like? Were they for a particular railroad?

              I'd like to make this model look as she was supposed to. Any help would be appreciated.

              Thanks.

              Dick Moessner
              FT Wayne IN
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14695 From: jim heckard Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Tender of the Beast
               

               
               
                         While I wait for a few little parts for my 4-4-4-2 Beast ( Springs, stanchions and little side rod screws ) I have decided to play around with detailing the tender. It is a Mantua tender with plastic shell. I have taken off the cast on long vertical handrails at the 4 corners to replace them with formed brass ones and changing the small back light to a bigger one. I wanted to take off the back ladder but it is cast on as an integral part of the back of the tender that I would ruin the rivet  and other small detail getting it off.
               
                  I decided to try something. I drilled out the solid round top part of the ladder and using different size drill bits in a pin vise tried to take out the inside of the solid plastic casting. Now using the side of the drill bit as a file I am carefully shaping it to an open half moon. These pictures were to show me what it looks like magnified. I still need a little in the corners but doesn't look bad. 
               
                                                                    Jim H 
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14696 From: jim heckard Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Much better
              Attachments :
               
                    I have the plastic ladder top much better now. You have to realize there is only 3/32' of material to work inside of.
               
                                                                                                        Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14697 From: rcjge Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              HI Guys:

              Thanks all of you for your input on this.The same seller goforth has another Super Mikado up for sale on ebay at present. A wealth of riches! I hope mostly that the chassis and running gear is in good shape. The advice to remove the motor and test for binds is sound. I'll likely open the motor up as well and check it before "giving it fire!"
              Has anyone put a 4 wheel leading truck on a super Mike chassis and fitted a Berkie Boiler/cab? Would the drivers have to be bigger on the Berk?

              Again guys, Thanks.
              Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
              >
              > Gareth, Lots of luck with your new acquisition. It looks like with a
              > little work, you'll have something very much worth adding to your collection.
              > From what I can see of it, it doesn't look in too bad of shape. The major
              > issue making it look much worse than what it really is, is the ratty looking
              > paint job, which is only cosmetic. Once you strip it down and get a nice
              > coat of paint on it, it will look like a million bucks. By the lousy photos, I
              > see this engine's missing a few minor parts -- like the Pilot Flag
              > Stanchions, Order Boards and Marker Lights -- which is no big deal. Looks like the
              > tender is missing several steps, too.
              >
              > The engine handrails need replacing, as is obvious, but a real cinch to
              > take care of. I'd get rid of that coupler sticking out of the pilot and either
              > replace it with a KD or a Varney dummy coupler. All of the other details
              > seem to be accounted for. You'll need to give the tender marker lights some
              > attention as, at least one of them looks bent, but it looks like they're
              > both there from what I can make out. Looks like you'll also have to do
              > something about the tender's coal load floor. I don't know if someone was trying
              > to convert this into an "oil burner," but the flat metal piece sitting where
              > the coal should be sure looks out of place, especially on the angle it's at.
              >
              > This engine was valued at $120 in good condition, in 1991, almost 20 years
              > ago. While it may not be in good condition, it has to be worth an
              > additional $45 as it is today. The main feature is that it's a "Super" model, with
              > sprung chassis and a V-2 motor, and there lies much of its value. I notice
              > Bob Goforth sold this engine "as is," stating that it tries to run (but
              > doesn't). Since you're already aware of that, I wouldn't even try to test it and
              > risk burning out the motor (unless only for a brief moment at very low
              > current). Disassemble the mechanism after removing it from the boiler by remove
              > the motor from the chassis. Then, check out the running gear for a bind.
              > The whole thing may only need a good cleaning and lube, but you'll see if
              > more work is needed by how well it rolls without the motor being installed.
              > Usually, Bob goes over everything and tunes and lubes his engines, making
              > sure they run well, which is why he has the following that he does. He
              > probably didn't do all that with this as he probably thought that investment
              > wouldn't be returned, with the paint needing to be badly renewed.
              >
              > BTW, I sent out those John English Mike and Pacific plans to you this past
              > Friday, so you should be getting them soon. Ray F.W.
              >
              > </HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14698 From: Ken Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Old DC motors
              Ever notice how some DC motors run hot? Do you know the whys? Your motor has free running bearings, A good armature,good brushes, A good commutator, and finaly a good magnet. But is it? I'll bet that sometime in its life that magnet was removed and the motor never ran the same as new. What happened? Simply put the magnetic field collapsed the instant the armature or magnet was removed rendering the motor useless. You can remagnetize it as a unit just like it was when it was built or replace it with a Canon motor or a Maxon. I remagneitize my old Pittman style ones with some success almost as good as a new motor. My Lindsay trucks had their magnets made just 6 blocks from my house, These motors always need to be remagnetized as do most magnets that are circular. Thought I'd pass this on..
              Ken
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14699 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Old DC motors
              How do you re-magnetize old Pittman motors?

              Don Staton in VA.
              ======================================================================

              On 8/3/2010 6:39 PM, Ken wrote:
               

              Ever notice how some DC motors run hot? Do you know the whys? Your motor has free running bearings, A good armature,good brushes, A good commutator, and finaly a good magnet. But is it? I'll bet that sometime in its life that magnet was removed and the motor never ran the same as new. What happened? Simply put the magnetic field collapsed the instant the armature or magnet was removed rendering the motor useless. You can remagnetize it as a unit just like it was when it was built or replace it with a Canon motor or a Maxon. I remagneitize my old Pittman style ones with some success almost as good as a new motor. My Lindsay trucks had their magnets made just 6 blocks from my house, These motors always need to be remagnetized as do most magnets that are circular. Thought I'd pass this on..
              Ken

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14700 From: Ken Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Old DC motors
              with a magnetizer of course. I have one I use to remagnetize old tractor magnetos. Is your motor in good shape otherwise?
              Ken

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
              >
              > /How do you re-magnetize old Pittman motors?/
              >
              > /Don Staton in VA.
              > ======================================================================
              > /
              > On 8/3/2010 6:39 PM, Ken wrote:
              > >
              > > Ever notice how some DC motors run hot? Do you know the whys? Your
              > > motor has free running bearings, A good armature,good brushes, A good
              > > commutator, and finaly a good magnet. But is it? I'll bet that
              > > sometime in its life that magnet was removed and the motor never ran
              > > the same as new. What happened? Simply put the magnetic field
              > > collapsed the instant the armature or magnet was removed rendering the
              > > motor useless. You can remagnetize it as a unit just like it was when
              > > it was built or replace it with a Canon motor or a Maxon. I
              > > remagneitize my old Pittman style ones with some success almost as
              > > good as a new motor. My Lindsay trucks had their magnets made just 6
              > > blocks from my house, These motors always need to be remagnetized as
              > > do most magnets that are circular. Thought I'd pass this on..
              > > Ken
              > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14701 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Old DC motors
              Just asking to see if you had devised another way.  Thanks for the response.  Yes I have some in good shape but with weak magnets.  Most of them are old Athearn motors and a few open frame that someone else took apart and I keep them for parts, both American and Japanese manufacture.

              Did you build the device or buy the device?  If purchased, where?  If you built it, please write an article and tell the rest of us how to do it.

              Don Staton in VA.
              ========================================================================================================

              On 8/3/2010 8:55 PM, Ken wrote:
               

              with a magnetizer of course. I have one I use to remagnetize old tractor magnetos. Is your motor in good shape otherwise?
              Ken

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
              >
              > /How do you re-magnetize old Pittman motors?/
              >
              > /Don Staton in VA.
              > ======================================================================
              > /
              > On 8/3/2010 6:39 PM, Ken wrote:
              > >
              > > Ever notice how some DC motors run hot? Do you know the whys? Your
              > > motor has free running bearings, A good armature,good brushes, A good
              > > commutator, and finaly a good magnet. But is it? I'll bet that
              > > sometime in its life that magnet was removed and the motor never ran
              > > the same as new. What happened? Simply put the magnetic field
              > > collapsed the instant the armature or magnet was removed rendering the
              > > motor useless. You can remagnetize it as a unit just like it was when
              > > it was built or replace it with a Canon motor or a Maxon. I
              > > remagneitize my old Pittman style ones with some success almost as
              > > good as a new motor. My Lindsay trucks had their magnets made just 6
              > > blocks from my house, These motors always need to be remagnetized as
              > > do most magnets that are circular. Thought I'd pass this on..
              > > Ken
              > >
              > >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14702 From: louis niederlander Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Old DC motors

               
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > From: k4sb@...
              > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 22:39:48 +0000
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Old DC motors
              >
              >I remagneitize my old Pittman style ones with some success almost as good as a new motor. Thought I'd pass this on..
              > Ken
              >

               
              Did you build your own zapper??
               
              Regards,
               
              Louis N
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14703 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              Gareth, The drivers would be the same size (63"), but there is not enough
              room to fit a 4-wheel pilot truck where the 2-wheel truck is now. Ray F.W.
              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14704 From: jim heckard Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Articulated headlight placement
               
               
                 Can anyone tell me if any articulated steam engine had the headlight on the front of the boiler ?
               
                                                                                                        Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14705 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              Yes, the early UP 4-6-6-4 did.  Later UP 4-6-6-4 locos had the light on the front porch of the front engine.  Most other articulated locos had it on the pilot or front deck or on the cylinder saddle someplaceNot on the boiler front made for better illumination of the track ahead at night.  The front engine turned with the curves but the smoke box front did not turn with the curves but remained in line with the rear engine..

              Don Staton in VA.
              ==================================================================================

              On 8/3/2010 9:57 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               
               
                 Can anyone tell me if any articulated steam engine had the headlight on the front of the boiler ?
               
                                                                                                        Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14706 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              A Berkshire still had a 2 wheel lead truck...  but it had a 4 wheel trailing truck to support the larger firebox on the Berk.  Mikes had a 2 wheel trailing truck because of a smaller firebox.  Most Berks had 69 inch or larger drivers though some early ones had 63 inch drivers, the dame as most Mikes.

              Don Staton in VA
              =========================================================

              On 8/3/2010 9:44 PM, erieberk@... wrote:
               

              Gareth, The drivers would be the same size (63"), but there is not enough
              room to fit a 4-wheel pilot truck where the 2-wheel truck is now. Ray F.W.
              </HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14707 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              That should have ended with ",the same on most Mikes."
              Don Staton in VA.
              ====================================================================

              On 8/3/2010 10:25 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:
               

              A Berkshire still had a 2 wheel lead truck...  but it had a 4 wheel trailing truck to support the larger firebox on the Berk.  Mikes had a 2 wheel trailing truck because of a smaller firebox.  Most Berks had 69 inch or larger drivers though some early ones had 63 inch drivers, the dame as most Mikes.

              Don Staton in VA
              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =========

              On 8/3/2010 9:44 PM, erieberk@wmconnect. com wrote:

               

              Gareth, The drivers would be the same size (63"), but there is not enough
              room to fit a 4-wheel pilot truck where the 2-wheel truck is now. Ray F.W.
              </HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14708 From: Ken Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Old DC motors
              These are really easy to build with a Mill and a Lathe on hand.
              I've done a few and in the 80s were affordable.. I'll explain in a bit. To start get a piece of tool steel 1/2in x 5x7 in for a base and a length of 2 x 10in long mild steel rod. drill two 3/8 in holes lengthwise in the base 4in apart and symetrical to the edges if the base. Countersink the holes. That is the bottom. cut the rod in half. Drill and tap 3/8-24 in the rods about an inch deep. Now you need to make the Poles. Get a block of 2x6 blo of mild steel cut in half lengthwise. You now have two blocks 2x3 inches, Bevel the 2 in wide so
              the edge is 3/8 tall. A 45degree angle is fine. Mill a 3/8 slot in each centered and lengthwise. Now using countersink screws attach the
              rods to the base. Usinf 3/8-24 caphead allen screws attach the poles.
              Now you can visualize what this thing looks like. Whats wrong? The price of 22 guage enameled copper wire. You need 2 or 3 thousand turns. Unbroken! Last time I checked it was around 300.00 a pole!
              You need to make rings to hold the wire. I used 1/8 plexiglass. Winding the wire took hours on the lathe. I used the power feed to wind through a wood tool held in the toolpost. Get the idea? The discharge was a modified Capacitor discharge for switch machines. A 3000mfd 250v cap and a 500v bridge rectifier. You push a button to charge the cap. Another to discharge it through the coils.
              Thats about it.
              Ken





              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, louis niederlander <l_niederlander@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: k4sb@...
              > > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 22:39:48 +0000
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Old DC motors
              > >
              > >I remagneitize my old Pittman style ones with some success almost as good as a new motor. Thought I'd pass this on..
              > > Ken
              > >
              >
              >
              > Did you build your own zapper??
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Louis N
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14709 From: tom leen Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Articulated headlight placement
              Hi Jim,
              From pictures I've seen of for example the Union Pacific's Big Boy, the headlights were not mounted on the boiler.  They were mounted on part of the articulated frame under the boiler, is that called the pilot?  If you search for Union Pacific Big Boy and look at the picture of one on wikipedia, you can see what I mean.
              Tom
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14710 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              The D&SL 2-6-6-0's originally had the headlight on top front--later moved to the pilot deck.  I think this was common for the earlier Mallets, Like they wanted the headlight to be useful and shine where they were going.  gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 6:57 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Articulated headlight placement

               
               
                 Can anyone tell me if any articulated steam engine had the headlight on the front of the boiler ?
               
                                                                                                        Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14711 From: Joe Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              Although not an articulated in the usual sense the
              Lowey designed PRR T-1 4-4-4-4 and the similar
              4-4-6-4 had a very prominent boiler mounted headlight
              on the very streamlined shell. The better known
              PRR sharknose diesel has a similar "nosey" profile.
              Joe O'Loughlin


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Can anyone tell me if any articulated steam engine had the headlight on the front of the boiler ?a>
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14712 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              Don S and others, It's interesting how different prototype railroads used
              different sized drivers for different applications/uses on the same type
              engines. Most Mikados used drivers between 61.5" and 64", whereas most
              Bershires (being much larger engines) used drivers up around 69" or 70". The
              Reading, for instance first had their early Mikados having 61.5" drivers, but
              later when they increased their fleet, their newer Mikados had 55.5" drivers --
              designed to haul coal. On the other hand, the B&O (and CB&Q and some
              others) used 64" drivers on their Mikes, while the Pennsy used 62" drivers.

              The USRA designed Heavy Mikados, used by a good many railroads (the Erie
              was one of them) used 63" drivers; UP used this size. As for the Berkshires,
              the famous Nickel Plate Road Berks used 69" drivers on their Berks, while
              the Erie used 70" drivers. Often, the terrain they operated over also
              dictated their driver sizes.

              As it appears to me here, Gareth was not necessarily asking about
              prototypical operations, but instead asking about modeling, and more specifically
              about Varney models -- and seeking to know if he could make a Mountain - 4-8-2
              with Varney parts -- using the Super Mikado (and Super Berkshire) frame and
              a cast brass Mike/Berk/Standard Hudson boiler. As Varney only offered three
              size drivers, only two of these sizes (63" and 72") for road engines, there
              would be no other choice if he wanted to go with 69" drivers except to use
              a Bowser Mechanism, which I don't believe was his purpose (and 72" Varney
              drivers were reserved for Pacifics, Hudsons and Northerns). As we know, with
              Varney, both the Mikado and the Berkshire used 63" drivers. Unfortunately
              for Gareth, while the six-coupled 72" drivered Standard Hudson's front set of
              drivers is centered under the sand dome -- leaving room for a 4-wheel pilot
              truck to fit between this set of drivers and the pilot -- the front set of
              drivers of an eight-coupled 63" drivered Mikado comes forward almost up to
              the cylinder chest leaving no room for a 4-wheel pilot truck. Ray F.W.
              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14713 From: jim heckard Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight
               

               
               
                 Thanks for the replies. This question popped into my mind as I think about details for my engine. I figured that the best lighting in a real articulated would  come from following the track, mounted on the movable pilot. Then I started to wonder about my options. Since my engine is a one of a kind and no real prototype to follow I can decide what seems best and not be wrong either way.
               
                 As a vintage collector who likes my HO engines as close as the manufacturers produced them I usually don't have to worry about these things.  Modifying and building, when it comes to detailing, changes that and it pays to know a little about the real thing . I lack that knowledge.
               
                                                                    Jim H
               
                
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14714 From: John H Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              Jim,

              Several early articulated had the headlight on the boiler but for the most part they were moved to the pilot deck in order to better light the track ahead on curves. The only later application I have seen with the light on the boiler front were the first order of UP's Challengers. The second order and the Big Boys had them on the pilot deck and the early Challengers were moved there also.

              John

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Can anyone tell me if any articulated steam engine had the headlight on the front of the boiler ?
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14715 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              Dick, The Mantua Belle of the ' 80's came with two paint bottles, not just
              the Part # 571 Green. As Mantua suggests in the instructions for this
              engine, you may paint the pilot and wheels Red. While I don't know specifically
              if that other bottle was Red, but since there were no other colors used,
              and since Mantua does suggest; "If you wish to add color, paint the wheels and
              cowcatcher red," we might conclude that red paint was included for this
              purpose.

              Other than those parts, the remainder of the engine (boiler, cab,
              steamchest, smokestack and domes) and the tender were painted the # 571 Green that
              was supplied. As best as I can describe this green, it was not light nor
              medium but a darker shade of green. Closest to it (but a bit darker), as it
              appears to me, is what is described as the New York, New Haven & Hartford
              Railroad's "401 Green" which is what was used on their Osgood Bradley ("American
              Flyer") coaches during a certain era. A..C. Gilbert used this color on
              their H0 and S gauge New Haven passenger equipment.

              Varney's 8 1/2" x 11" 1941 Dealer Catalog includes a separate chart of 14
              colors on heavy cardboard of all of their paint swatches (as actual dried
              paint samples) which were sold pre-War by Varney, as their line of "Varney
              Model Railroad Paints." The Mantua #571 Green appears right in between this
              "401 Green" and what Varney describes simply as "Passenger Car Green" (which
              looks like Hunter Green to me, a popular and well-known shade that I believe
              even Rustoleum uses, or used).

              The Decalomanias set for the "Belle of the ' 80's" (part # 9981) is quite
              ornate, especially for the ones that are applied to the tender, although
              there are no railroad names. It's described as "In rich red and green, worked
              in gold." As Bowser's PRR K-4 is probably more familiar to many, I'll use
              that as a similar example, having a wide outline covering the side of the
              tender of the passenger version decals that were included with this engine,
              only, the Mantua decals had lots of scrolling within it, and then a center oval
              where either a number or a roadname might go if one were desired.
              Additionally, the Mantua decals not only had this outline, but were solidly colored a
              buff shade of gold within it (up the the outline of the oval); likewise for
              the smaller versions of this that went on the cab, sans oval. Mantua
              includes a reproduction (in H0 scale) of these decals toward the back of a number
              of their early 6 3/8" x 10 1/2" format catalogs, including their larger 8
              1/2" x 11" 1948 "Catalogue and Handbook." Ray F.W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14716 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              Jim, The Delaware & Hudson Challengers had the headlight centered
              (recessed) in the smokebox front. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14717 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              Other than those parts, the remainder of the engine (boiler, cab,
              steamchest, smokestack and domes) and the tender were painted the # 571 Green that
              was supplied. As best as I can describe this green, it was not light nor
              medium but a darker shade of green. Closest to it (but a bit darker), as it
              appears to me, is what is described as the New York, New Haven & Hartford
              Railroad's "401 Green" which is what was used on their Osgood Bradley ("American
              Flyer") coaches during a certain era. A..C. Gilbert used this color on
              their H0 and S gauge New Haven passenger equipment.

              Would this be Hunter Green? My prewar Osgood-Bradley coaches were Hunter green, though the New Haven used a few shades on these cars.

              For what it is worth, I bought some Krylon hunter green spraypaint, and repainted my O-B coaches. Turned out quite well! Close match to the original.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Wed, 8/4/10, erieberk@... <erieberk@...> wrote:

              From: erieberk@... <erieberk@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 10:15 AM

               

              Dick, The Mantua Belle of the ' 80's came with two paint bottles, not just
              the Part # 571 Green. As Mantua suggests in the instructions for this
              engine, you may paint the pilot and wheels Red. While I don't know specifically
              if that other bottle was Red, but since there were no other colors used,
              and since Mantua does suggest; "If you wish to add color, paint the wheels and
              cowcatcher red," we might conclude that red paint was included for this
              purpose.

              Other than those parts, the remainder of the engine (boiler, cab,
              steamchest, smokestack and domes) and the tender were painted the # 571 Green that
              was supplied. As best as I can describe this green, it was not light nor
              medium but a darker shade of green. Closest to it (but a bit darker), as it
              appears to me, is what is described as the New York, New Haven & Hartford
              Railroad's "401 Green" which is what was used on their Osgood Bradley ("American
              Flyer") coaches during a certain era. A..C. Gilbert used this color on
              their H0 and S gauge New Haven passenger equipment.

              Varney's 8 1/2" x 11" 1941 Dealer Catalog includes a separate chart of 14
              colors on heavy cardboard of all of their paint swatches (as actual dried
              paint samples) which were sold pre-War by Varney, as their line of "Varney
              Model Railroad Paints." The Mantua #571 Green appears right in between this
              "401 Green" and what Varney describes simply as "Passenger Car Green" (which
              looks like Hunter Green to me, a popular and well-known shade that I believe
              even Rustoleum uses, or used).

              The Decalomanias set for the "Belle of the ' 80's" (part # 9981) is quite
              ornate, especially for the ones that are applied to the tender, although
              there are no railroad names. It's described as "In rich red and green, worked
              in gold." As Bowser's PRR K-4 is probably more familiar to many, I'll use
              that as a similar example, having a wide outline covering the side of the
              tender of the passenger version decals that were included with this engine,
              only, the Mantua decals had lots of scrolling within it, and then a center oval
              where either a number or a roadname might go if one were desired.
              Additionally, the Mantua decals not only had this outline, but were solidly colored a
              buff shade of gold within it (up the the outline of the oval); likewise for
              the smaller versions of this that went on the cab, sans oval. Mantua
              includes a reproduction (in H0 scale) of these decals toward the back of a number
              of their early 6 3/8" x 10 1/2" format catalogs, including their larger 8
              1/2" x 11" 1948 "Catalogue and Handbook." Ray F.W. </HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14718 From: jim heckard Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              Ray F W, All,
               
                  I just had a good suggestion on how to decide where to put the headlight on this articulated engine. Get a dartboard and divide it into 4 equal areas. Label each   middle of the boiler front, on top of the boiler, on the moving pilot  &  don't have any and only run engine in the daytime.
               
                 Thanks for the response from you and all others.
               
                                                       Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 12:27 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Articulated headlight placement

               

              Jim, The Delaware & Hudson Challengers had the headlight centered
              (recessed) in the smokebox front. Ray F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14719 From: Mike Sloane Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              Based on the name of the engine, I would suspect the color to be more
              like the one that was used on Southern RY equipment.
              <http://www.american-rails.com/southern-railway.html>

              Just a guess...

              Mike

              On 8/4/2010 12:47 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
              >
              >
              > Other than those parts, the remainder of the engine (boiler, cab,
              > steamchest, smokestack and domes) and the tender were painted the # 571
              > Green that
              > was supplied. As best as I can describe this green, it was not light nor
              > medium but a darker shade of green. Closest to it (but a bit darker), as it
              > appears to me, is what is described as the New York, New Haven & Hartford
              > Railroad's "401 Green" which is what was used on their Osgood Bradley
              > ("American
              > Flyer") coaches during a certain era. A..C. Gilbert used this color on
              > their H0 and S gauge New Haven passenger equipment.
              >
              > Would this be Hunter Green? My prewar Osgood-Bradley coaches were Hunter
              > green, though the New Haven used a few shades on these cars.
              >
              > For what it is worth, I bought some Krylon hunter green spraypaint, and
              > repainted my O-B coaches. Turned out quite well! Close match to the
              > original.
              >
              > -Steve Neubaum
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14720 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              Attachments :



              The Decalomanias set for the "Belle of the ' 80's" (part # 9981) is quite
              ornate, especially for the ones that are applied to the tender, although
              there are no railroad names. It's described as "In rich red and green, worked
              in gold."

              Have just dug out my second, unfinished Belle ( have an built up one too, rebuilt from a terrible mess) - box contains the decals mentioned. As the base color is green I feel the color included should have been the same green to give an uniform look to the tender.

              I understand yahoo will reduce size/ quality of the scan, so if anybody wants better pictures send my a note. My decals are so brittle they sure would desintegrate if soaked... so it would be best if somebody could duplicate them with an Alps printer, or maybe even by silk screen process.

              Gerold
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14721 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              I believe I have one painted in that color. I may be able to take some pictures of it when I get home from vacation. If I remember correctly, it is very dark. Sean

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Aug 4, 2010, at 12:56 PM, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:

               

              Based on the name of the engine, I would suspect the color to be more
              like the one that was used on Southern RY equipment.
              <http://www.american-rails.com/southern-railway.html>

              Just a guess...

              Mike

              On 8/4/2010 12:47 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
              >
              >
              > Other than those parts, the remainder of the engine (boiler, cab,
              > steamchest, smokestack and domes) and the tender were painted the # 571
              > Green that
              > was supplied. As best as I can describe this green, it was not light nor
              > medium but a darker shade of green. Closest to it (but a bit darker), as it
              > appears to me, is what is described as the New York, New Haven & Hartford
              > Railroad's "401 Green" which is what was used on their Osgood Bradley
              > ("American
              > Flyer") coaches during a certain era. A..C. Gilbert used this color on
              > their H0 and S gauge New Haven passenger equipment.
              >
              > Would this be Hunter Green? My prewar Osgood-Bradley coaches were Hunter
              > green, though the New Haven used a few shades on these cars.
              >
              > For what it is worth, I bought some Krylon hunter green spraypaint, and
              > repainted my O-B coaches. Turned out quite well! Close match to the
              > original.
              >
              > -Steve Neubaum


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14722 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              Jim, Or, how about having a headlight on the boiler and on the pilot.
              Since this is a free-lance engine, you can use as many headlights as you want.
              Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14723 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              Steve, Yes, it's extremely close to Hunter Green -- which I already said
              in my paragraph following the one you quoted. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14724 From: trainliker Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              You might have a chance to do a "first" in this hobby.

              How about an automatically mechanically steered headlight on (or in) the boiler nose. Ala the Tucker car.

              Even a pilot mounted headlight will shine off to the side and not really quite where the light is needed most.

              The steerable one would probably ideally be linked to the swing of the front engine not just to keep it parallel with it, but to move even a little bit further to help light the track that is curving away from the front of the engine.

              Chuck Kinzer

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
              >
              > Jim, Or, how about having a headlight on the boiler and on the pilot.
              > Since this is a free-lance engine, you can use as many headlights as you want.
              > Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14725 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              Mike, I don't get the connection between the Belle of the ' 80's engine and
              the Southern Railroad -- unless it's just that "Belle" brings up memories
              of the south. But then, we might just as well expect it to have run on any
              southern railroad, like the Central of Georgia the Tennessee Central, the
              Greenville, Columbus & Birmingham or the Mississippi Southern. While there was
              a named passenger train called "The Southern Belle," that train was
              operated by the Kansas City Southern -- from the 1940's to the 1960's. In any
              case, the Southern Railroad's green is too light for the Belle of the ' 80's.
              Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14726 From: Chris B Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              Sounds good, but even though it's from a diesel, and I am kidding,

              wouldn't one of the athearn switcher "arc welder" headlights just light up the whole ROW no matter where you mounted it?

              Chris B.
              From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...>
              Sender: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 18:52:03 -0000
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Articulated headlight placement

               

              You might have a chance to do a "first" in this hobby.

              How about an automatically mechanically steered headlight on (or in) the boiler nose. Ala the Tucker car.

              Even a pilot mounted headlight will shine off to the side and not really quite where the light is needed most.

              The steerable one would probably ideally be linked to the swing of the front engine not just to keep it parallel with it, but to move even a little bit further to help light the track that is curving away from the front of the engine.

              Chuck Kinzer

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
              >
              > Jim, Or, how about having a headlight on the boiler and on the pilot.
              > Since this is a free-lance engine, you can use as many headlights as you want.
              > Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14727 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals? [1 Attachment]
              Gerold, Yes, that would be the color of the engine -- right between the
              New Haven's "402 Green" and "Hunter Green" As you're showing the red too,
              this would probably be appropriate for the wheels and cowcatcher, as a match,
              although I might have gone with a slightly brighter red. I don't know what
              shade Mantua had in mind for the red on these parts. Ray</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14728 From: Matthew Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Much better
              "You are a better man than I am Gunga Din!"

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I have the plastic ladder top much better now. You have to realize there is only 3/32' of material to work inside of.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14729 From: jbark76 Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Old DC motors
              I recently built one from a 1945 article in The Model Craftsman (it wasn't just railroad yet). (I'll have to look to see what month.) It was a simpler version of what was described earlier. I made 2 coils of over 300 ft of 22ga armature wire each. The whole thing was supposed to be about 1 Ohm, so each coil had to be about 1/2 ohm. I can get some of the numbers and facts together and even post photos. I haven't done much with it yet, but it is promising. I will look into using a capacitor discharge as that wasn't covered in the article.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14730 From: jbark76 Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Old DC motors -GOOF-
              I said 1 OHM and it should be 1 AMP. At 12VDC if each coil is 6 OHMs (12 tot), then it should be 1 Amp. Sorry
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14731 From: rcjge Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              Hey Ray (FW):

              Interesting reading, and yes you're right it is the model I'm curious about though the model is meant to reflect the prototype.

              I had the sense looking at the diagrams that the central sprung part of the Super Mikado is similar to the Super Northerns. I was thinking that a "Super" Berk could be made using the central Sprung driver module of the Super Mikado then adapting the end pieces to fit and mounting the Berk boiler... Using larger drivers would probably be desirable. Perhaps a central module from scratch, custom made to fit the Berkie boiler using the Varney Sprung chassis system!? The frame side pieces of the sprung chassis look like stampings?

              Theres sort of a tradition adapting Varney's after all isn't there!?

              -Gareth


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
              >
              > Don S and others, It's interesting how different prototype railroads used
              > different sized drivers for different applications/uses on the same type
              > engines. Most Mikados used drivers between 61.5" and 64", whereas most
              > Bershires (being much larger engines) used drivers up around 69" or 70". The
              > Reading, for instance first had their early Mikados having 61.5" drivers, but
              > later when they increased their fleet, their newer Mikados had 55.5" drivers --
              > designed to haul coal. On the other hand, the B&O (and CB&Q and some
              > others) used 64" drivers on their Mikes, while the Pennsy used 62" drivers.
              >
              > The USRA designed Heavy Mikados, used by a good many railroads (the Erie
              > was one of them) used 63" drivers; UP used this size. As for the Berkshires,
              > the famous Nickel Plate Road Berks used 69" drivers on their Berks, while
              > the Erie used 70" drivers. Often, the terrain they operated over also
              > dictated their driver sizes.
              >
              > As it appears to me here, Gareth was not necessarily asking about
              > prototypical operations, but instead asking about modeling, and more specifically
              > about Varney models -- and seeking to know if he could make a Mountain - 4-8-2
              > with Varney parts -- using the Super Mikado (and Super Berkshire) frame and
              > a cast brass Mike/Berk/Standard Hudson boiler. As Varney only offered three
              > size drivers, only two of these sizes (63" and 72") for road engines, there
              > would be no other choice if he wanted to go with 69" drivers except to use
              > a Bowser Mechanism, which I don't believe was his purpose (and 72" Varney
              > drivers were reserved for Pacifics, Hudsons and Northerns). As we know, with
              > Varney, both the Mikado and the Berkshire used 63" drivers. Unfortunately
              > for Gareth, while the six-coupled 72" drivered Standard Hudson's front set of
              > drivers is centered under the sand dome -- leaving room for a 4-wheel pilot
              > truck to fit between this set of drivers and the pilot -- the front set of
              > drivers of an eight-coupled 63" drivered Mikado comes forward almost up to
              > the cylinder chest leaving no room for a 4-wheel pilot truck. Ray F.W.
              > </HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14732 From: RalphB Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Old DC motors
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ken wrote:
              >
              > These are really easy to build with a Mill and a Lathe on hand.

              Yeah, I worked with those machines, but I was in the engineering office, not out on the manufacturing floor. That was also 40+ years ago and the company didn't last too much longer after I left it to join the Army. (Coincedence?) Everything's easy when you have the right tools and the know-how to use them. ;-)

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14733 From: John H Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              I would be willing to make some decals for the Belle. I don't know if the green is meant to match the paint (Almost impossible with a Alps) (or even screen painting unless one had the paint to match it with). If it is supposed to match the background color the best thing to do is leave the green ares clear allowing the green to show through.

              For this reason and due to other comments I doubt that the decal green is as dark as the painted green.

              The red don't look all that rich to me, at least on the photo. But then who knows if these decals are faded or not. If you can supply a better scan I would appreciate it.

              John Hagen
              OBS-CALS The obscure decal people

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > The Decalomanias set for the "Belle of the ' 80's" (part # 9981) is quite
              > > ornate, especially for the ones that are applied to the tender, although
              > > there are no railroad names. It's described as "In rich red and green,
              > > worked
              > > in gold."
              > >
              > Have just dug out my second, unfinished Belle ( have an built up one
              > too, rebuilt from a terrible mess) - box contains the decals mentioned.
              > As the base color is green I feel the color included should have been
              > the same green to give an uniform look to the tender.
              >
              > I understand yahoo will reduce size/ quality of the scan, so if anybody
              > wants better pictures send my a note. My decals are so brittle they sure
              > would desintegrate if soaked... so it would be best if somebody could
              > duplicate them with an Alps printer, or maybe even by silk screen process.
              >
              > Gerold
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14734 From: Mike Bauers Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              John,

              The originals are also out of register. Your newly made Alps decals
              would be a major improvement on them.

              They remind me of exactly the set of ornate vintage steam locomotive
              decals that Walthers had in their decal catalog up to the end of their
              decal line. Perhaps Walthers made them for Mantua ??

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              On Aug 4, 2010, at 9:24 PM, John H wrote:

              > I would be willing to make some decals for the Belle. I don't know
              > if the green is meant to match the paint (Almost impossible with a
              > Alps) (or even screen painting unless one had the paint to match it
              > with). If it is supposed to match the background color the best
              > thing to do is leave the green ares clear allowing the green to show
              > through.
              >
              > For this reason and due to other comments I doubt that the decal
              > green is as dark as the painted green.
              >
              > The red don't look all that rich to me, at least on the photo. But
              > then who knows if these decals are faded or not. If you can supply a
              > better scan I would appreciate it.
              >
              > John Hagen
              > OBS-CALS The obscure decal people
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> The Decalomanias set for the "Belle of the ' 80's" (part # 9981)
              >>> is quite
              >>> ornate, especially for the ones that are applied to the tender,
              >>> although
              >>> there are no railroad names. It's described as "In rich red and
              >>> green,
              >>> worked
              >>> in gold."
              >>>
              >> Have just dug out my second, unfinished Belle ( have an built up one
              >> too, rebuilt from a terrible mess) - box contains the decals
              >> mentioned.
              >> As the base color is green I feel the color included should have been
              >> the same green to give an uniform look to the tender.
              >>
              >> I understand yahoo will reduce size/ quality of the scan, so if
              >> anybody
              >> wants better pictures send my a note. My decals are so brittle they
              >> sure
              >> would desintegrate if soaked... so it would be best if somebody could
              >> duplicate them with an Alps printer, or maybe even by silk screen
              >> process.
              >>
              >> Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14735 From: Nelson B Date: 8/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Much better
              Very nice work, Jim. I'm amazed you were able to file it that thin.

              I've been keeping tabs on your progress on the beastie, and it's amazing how far you've come in such a short time. You've blended the two boilers together very well, and it will look great with the band at the joint removed and a new one evenly spaced between the others.

              Great job getting her articulated with that new pivot screw, although I guess it precludes running a drive shaft to the front drivers.

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
              >
              > "You are a better man than I am Gunga Din!"
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > I have the plastic ladder top much better now. You have to realize there is only 3/32' of material to work inside of.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14736 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: odd engine modifications; Articulated Beast
              Next step is to stuff a DC-91 motor in there! Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14737 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              Hey Gareth, You asked about putting a "4 wheel leading truck on a super
              Mike chassis and fitted (to) a Berkie Boiler." Now you're talking about
              making a Super Berk. FYI, a 4-wheel leading truck will not make a Berkshire.
              Berkshires have 2-wheel leading trucks and 4-wheel trailing trucks. A 4-wheel
              leading truck (with a 2-wheel trailing truck) will give you a Mountain, not
              a Berkshire.

              If you want to make a Super Berkshire out of the Super Mikado that you now
              have, just put a 4-wheel trailing truck on your existing frame and switch
              the boiler to the brass one, made in 1949, that was used not only for the
              Mikado (Standard and Sprung) at that time, but for the Berkshire (Standard and
              Sprung) and Standard Hudson -- as it was designed to do. No other changes or
              modifications are necessary, as Varney used the SAME sprung frame, and for
              most of the time the SAME cast brass boiler that both the Mikado and
              Berkshire used. Both engine kits were virtually identical except for a different
              trailing truck.

              You couldn't use 72" drivers without using the longer Northern frame -- and
              not only is there no need to use it, but to use it under the brass Berk
              boiler would take some extensive modifications -- if it would even fit (not to
              mention it would look out of place). You would need to use the much larger
              Northern boiler -- which would look really odd as a Berkshire (too hugh). I
              would suggest your getting a 1951 Varney Catalog off of eBay, the one with
              1001 Varney parts. This will show you much of what was available; many of
              the Varney parts were interchangeable, and this will show you just which
              ones. Ray F.W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14738 From: jim heckard Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: odd engine modifications; Articulated Beast
              Is that DC-91 the one used for O Gauge ? Stuff it in is right. Maybe if it is all in pieces.
               
                                                                                 Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 5:23 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: odd engine modifications; Articulated Beast

               

              Next step is to stuff a DC-91 motor in there! Ray F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14739 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: odd engine modifications; Articulated Beast
              Hi Jim, Yes, it's the one used for 0 gauge. They do use them for some H0
              models though -- Hobbytown used them for many of their diesels and I believe
              that's what Winton used in the Allegheny, possibly other H0 models had them
              too, I don't remember. Probably lots more room in the diesels since
              they're just a shell, and the Allegheny was thin sheet brass. I guess it would
              take a lot of grinding out of a cast Mantua boiler to fit it -- if even then.
              Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14740 From: RalphB Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jim Heckard wrote:

              > Can anyone tell me if any articulated steam engine had the headlight o=
              n the front of the boiler ?
              -----------------
              All of the Delaware & Hudson's 1500-series Challengers were built with the headlight recessed in the center of the smokebox door. It was a styling thing with the D&H. They were also visored with number boards attached to both sides of, and below, the visors. Built over a period from 1940 to 1946,this is well after most other roads had changed to mounting the headlight on the front engine. The D&H 300s (Northerns) were also built with recessed headlights, but without the visors.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14741 From: Fred Stevens K2FRD Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
              To anyone who sent any model locomotives and/or rolling stock to The
              Freight Yard in Phoenix, AZ for custom painting, please be advised
              The Freight Yard closed its doors in May and the proprietor made a
              midnight raid on his shop and removed all inventory to his home in
              Anthem, AZ including all stock delivered to him by us for painting.
              His shop phone is disconnected, his website is down, he doesn't
              answer emails, and his business is no longer listed in Model
              Railroading magazine. He made no notifications to any of us
              consignors, gave no address nor phone number such we could contact
              him to recover our models. I had delivered an MKT brass EMD NW2 Phase
              IV for custom painting in NYO&W livery in February.

              After repeated failures in June to learn status on my consignment (I
              phoned the shop monthly in Mar and April to check on status, was out
              of state in May), I drove the 90 miles to personally check on his
              shop, found it empty and stripped of all inventory, shelves,
              counters. The property administrator had posted an inventory seizure
              notice and lock on the store's door due to unpaid rent but the
              proprietor had first cleaned out the store before the notice was
              posted (dated 18 May 2010). The notice had the administrator's name
              and phone number and through the property management company (Paula
              at Lynn Morrison Co, Tucson, AZ) and Google searches, I was able to
              track down the proprietor's home address and phone number:

              Martin Cohen
              3868 W. Links Dr.
              Anthem, AZ 85086
              PH 623-551-8842

              Martin does not return phone calls as he promises. He's a smooth
              talker, very pleasant on the phone, makes a lot of promises but
              follows through with none of them. After I requested he return it to
              me, he twice said he mailed my locomotive (unpainted - he said he
              couldn't paint [in his garage] at least until October when the
              weather cools off). My own feeling is he hopes the consignors will
              give up (if no contact from consignee after a period of time, he can
              claim the engines as "abandoned property" and that he could sell the
              engines on eBay or whatever). After securing his home phone number, I
              pestered him with phone calls from June through the end of July when,
              after one last call this past Sunday evening, he told me that the
              Postal Service had "returned as undeliverable" my locomotive the
              previous Friday. He did not phone me to advise me that he had the
              engine. I told him I'd be down the next morning to pick it up. He
              tried to put me off by claiming medical appointments but I preempted
              him by showing up at his door at 7AM Monday. He handed me my loco, I
              checked it out (all OK), and was on my way. One other consignor of
              six locomotives in the Phoenix area to whom I provided Cohen's home
              contact information was able to do the same thing. Anyone who shipped
              a locomotive to The Freight Yard likely does not have the advantage
              of proximity. I had also reported the engine as stolen to the Phoenix
              Police Department (602-262-6151) the previous week (I notified
              Phoenix police of its recovery. I declined to press charges.). Also,
              if the Police had contacted him, this might have hastened the sudden
              reappearance of my locomotive.

              I also suggest keeping detailed records of any communication/contacts
              with Martin Cohen. If by mail, send a letter with Signature
              Confirmation or Certified Mail. If he says he will return the
              locomotive by mail, insist he send it by Priority Mail with the above
              SC, CM, or, at least, with Delivery Confirmation; each will have a
              tracking number. Demand he tell you the tracking number. This will
              prove he actually sent it. Insurance is up to you. Good luck in
              getting any deposit back; I just wrote off my $116 deposit. All I
              wanted was the return of my locomotive.

              If anyone needs further information, please feel free to contact me
              onlist or off or phone me (# below).

              Anyone know of a reliable high quality custom model RR paint shop?

              Good luck!
              Fred Stevens, Arizona Division of the New York, Ontario and Western
              Prescott, AZ
              607-316-1369
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14742 From: jim heckard Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Tender detail
               

               
               
                     Since I was able to correct the major problems with that odd Mantua modified engine I bought I decided to do some detail work on the tender also. The plastic body of the Mantua tender has some detail molded on by very little depth to it.  I decided to add certain details to make it look a little better. After painting a coal load and back light will be next.
               
                I'm going to take a week break from the project to enjoy life a little while I wait for some little Mantua parts I need to come in. Now don't all cheer at the same time since I'm sure you are tired of hearing about this engine.
               
                                                                      Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14743 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
              What a shame!
               
              Glad you were able to recover your engine!
               
              Some people are just pure scum! I could not imagine knowingly cheat a single person, let alone everyone I did buisness with!
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; dandh@yahoogroups.com; HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: owrhs@yahoogroups.com; HOYARDSALE@yahoogroups.com; steameraweathering@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 5, 2010 1:13:05 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix

               

              To anyone who sent any model locomotives and/or rolling stock to The
              Freight Yard in Phoenix, AZ for custom painting, please be advised
              The Freight Yard closed its doors in May and the proprietor made a
              midnight raid on his shop and removed all inventory to his home in
              Anthem, AZ including all stock delivered to him by us for painting.
              His shop phone is disconnected, his website is down, he doesn't
              answer emails, and his business is no longer listed in Model
              Railroading magazine. He made no notifications to any of us
              consignors, gave no address nor phone number such we could contact
              him to recover our models. I had delivered an MKT brass EMD NW2 Phase
              IV for custom painting in NYO&W livery in February.

              After repeated failures in June to learn status on my consignment (I
              phoned the shop monthly in Mar and April to check on status, was out
              of state in May), I drove the 90 miles to personally check on his
              shop, found it empty and stripped of all inventory, shelves,
              counters. The property administrator had posted an inventory seizure
              notice and lock on the store's door due to unpaid rent but the
              proprietor had first cleaned out the store before the notice was
              posted (dated 18 May 2010). The notice had the administrator's name
              and phone number and through the property management company (Paula
              at Lynn Morrison Co, Tucson, AZ) and Google searches, I was able to
              track down the proprietor's home address and phone number:

              Martin Cohen
              3868 W. Links Dr.
              Anthem, AZ 85086
              PH 623-551-8842

              Martin does not return phone calls as he promises. He's a smooth
              talker, very pleasant on the phone, makes a lot of promises but
              follows through with none of them. After I requested he return it to
              me, he twice said he mailed my locomotive (unpainted - he said he
              couldn't paint [in his garage] at least until October when the
              weather cools off). My own feeling is he hopes the consignors will
              give up (if no contact from consignee after a period of time, he can
              claim the engines as "abandoned property" and that he could sell the
              engines on eBay or whatever). After securing his home phone number, I
              pestered him with phone calls from June through the end of July when,
              after one last call this past Sunday evening, he told me that the
              Postal Service had "returned as undeliverable" my locomotive the
              previous Friday. He did not phone me to advise me that he had the
              engine. I told him I'd be down the next morning to pick it up. He
              tried to put me off by claiming medical appointments but I preempted
              him by showing up at his door at 7AM Monday. He handed me my loco, I
              checked it out (all OK), and was on my way. One other consignor of
              six locomotives in the Phoenix area to whom I provided Cohen's home
              contact information was able to do the same thing. Anyone who shipped
              a locomotive to The Freight Yard likely does not have the advantage
              of proximity. I had also reported the engine as stolen to the Phoenix
              Police Department (602-262-6151) the previous week (I notified
              Phoenix police of its recovery. I declined to press charges.). Also,
              if the Police had contacted him, this might have hastened the sudden
              reappearance of my locomotive.

              I also suggest keeping detailed records of any communication/contacts
              with Martin Cohen. If by mail, send a letter with Signature
              Confirmation or Certified Mail. If he says he will return the
              locomotive by mail, insist he send it by Priority Mail with the above
              SC, CM, or, at least, with Delivery Confirmation; each will have a
              tracking number. Demand he tell you the tracking number. This will
              prove he actually sent it. Insurance is up to you. Good luck in
              getting any deposit back; I just wrote off my $116 deposit. All I
              wanted was the return of my locomotive.

              If anyone needs further information, please feel free to contact me
              onlist or off or phone me (# below).

              Anyone know of a reliable high quality custom model RR paint shop?

              Good luck!
              Fred Stevens, Arizona Division of the New York, Ontario and Western
              Prescott, AZ
              607-316-1369


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14744 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
              I agree.
               Some people have an odd sence of what is fare.

              --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 10:54 AM



              What a shame!
               
              Glad you were able to recover your engine!
               
              Some people are just pure scum! I could not imagine knowingly cheat a single person, let alone everyone I did buisness with!
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; dandh@yahoogroups.com; HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: owrhs@yahoogroups.com; HOYARDSALE@yahoogroups.com; steameraweathering@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 5, 2010 1:13:05 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix

               
              To anyone who sent any model locomotives and/or rolling stock to The
              Freight Yard in Phoenix, AZ for custom painting, please be advised
              The Freight Yard closed its doors in May and the proprietor made a
              midnight raid on his shop and removed all inventory to his home in
              Anthem, AZ including all stock delivered to him by us for painting.
              His shop phone is disconnected, his website is down, he doesn't
              answer emails, and his business is no longer listed in Model
              Railroading magazine. He made no notifications to any of us
              consignors, gave no address nor phone number such we could contact
              him to recover our models. I had delivered an MKT brass EMD NW2 Phase
              IV for custom painting in NYO&W livery in February.

              After repeated failures in June to learn status on my consignment (I
              phoned the shop monthly in Mar and April to check on status, was out
              of state in May), I drove the 90 miles to personally check on his
              shop, found it empty and stripped of all inventory, shelves,
              counters. The property administrator had posted an inventory seizure
              notice and lock on the store's door due to unpaid rent but the
              proprietor had first cleaned out the store before the notice was
              posted (dated 18 May 2010). The notice had the administrator's name
              and phone number and through the property management company (Paula
              at Lynn Morrison Co, Tucson, AZ) and Google searches, I was able to
              track down the proprietor's home address and phone number:

              Martin Cohen
              3868 W. Links Dr.
              Anthem, AZ 85086
              PH 623-551-8842

              Martin does not return phone calls as he promises. He's a smooth
              talker, very pleasant on the phone, makes a lot of promises but
              follows through with none of them. After I requested he return it to
              me, he twice said he mailed my locomotive (unpainted - he said he
              couldn't paint [in his garage] at least until October when the
              weather cools off). My own feeling is he hopes the consignors will
              give up (if no contact from consignee after a period of time, he can
              claim the engines as "abandoned property" and that he could sell the
              engines on eBay or whatever). After securing his home phone number, I
              pestered him with phone calls from June through the end of July when,
              after one last call this past Sunday evening, he told me that the
              Postal Service had "returned as undeliverable" my locomotive the
              previous Friday. He did not phone me to advise me that he had the
              engine. I told him I'd be down the next morning to pick it up. He
              tried to put me off by claiming medical appointments but I preempted
              him by showing up at his door at 7AM Monday. He handed me my loco, I
              checked it out (all OK), and was on my way. One other consignor of
              six locomotives in the Phoenix area to whom I provided Cohen's home
              contact information was able to do the same thing. Anyone who shipped
              a locomotive to The Freight Yard likely does not have the advantage
              of proximity. I had also reported the engine as stolen to the Phoenix
              Police Department (602-262-6151) the previous week (I notified
              Phoenix police of its recovery. I declined to press charges.). Also,
              if the Police had contacted him, this might have hastened the sudden
              reappearance of my locomotive.

              I also suggest keeping detailed records of any communication/contacts
              with Martin Cohen. If by mail, send a letter with Signature
              Confirmation or Certified Mail. If he says he will return the
              locomotive by mail, insist he send it by Priority Mail with the above
              SC, CM, or, at least, with Delivery Confirmation; each will have a
              tracking number. Demand he tell you the tracking number. This will
              prove he actually sent it. Insurance is up to you. Good luck in
              getting any deposit back; I just wrote off my $116 deposit. All I
              wanted was the return of my locomotive.

              If anyone needs further information, please feel free to contact me
              onlist or off or phone me (# below).

              Anyone know of a reliable high quality custom model RR paint shop?

              Good luck!
              Fred Stevens, Arizona Division of the New York, Ontario and Western
              Prescott, AZ
              607-316-1369




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14745 From: Richard Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
              Hi to all members,
              I'm a newbee to this group so I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or not but I will describ it in hopes it meets moderator approval.

              For a long time I have been trying to come up with a better way of powering the old MDC Boxcabs. Any one that owns one knows how noisy and eratic they can be. I've tried re-gearing and more recently, a chain drive but none of these revisions were satisfactory. Then, just by dumb luck, I stumbled on a kit bash on eBay where someone had joined two boxcabs and some parts from a GE U-boat to make a NYC boxcab and then they placed this on an Athearn chassis. Well, this got my old brain to thinking about what I could do with a boxcab and an Athearn frame. Low and behold I came up with a one of a kind kitbashed boxcab that runs as nice as apple pie and to me, looks great.

              If anyone is interested and it gets moderator approval, I will be glad to post some photos and a brief description of how it was done. I am contemplating writing and article about it for RMC or MRR magazines so I don't want to give away the farm just yet but I can give some basics.
              Richard in Vermont
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14746 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
              Yes, you're right. An engine would be odd "fare." Do they go well with fries? Sorry. Couldn't resist that one.
               
              In a message dated 8/5/2010 2:10:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, raymarinaccio@... writes:


              I agree.
               Some people have an odd sence of what is fare.

              --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 10:54 AM



              What a shame!
               
              Glad you were able to recover your engine!
               
              Some people are just pure scum! I could not imagine knowingly cheat a single person, let alone everyone I did buisness with!
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com; dandh@yahoogroups.com; HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: owrhs@yahoogroups.com; HOYARDSALE@yahoogroups.com; steameraweathering@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 5, 2010 1:13:05 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix

               
              To anyone who sent any model locomotives and/or rolling stock to The
              Freight Yard in Phoenix, AZ for custom painting, please be advised
              The Freight Yard closed its doors in May and the proprietor made a
              midnight raid on his shop and removed all inventory to his home in
              Anthem, AZ including all stock delivered to him by us for painting.
              His shop phone is disconnected, his website is down, he doesn't
              answer emails, and his business is no longer listed in Model
              Railroading magazine. He made no notifications to any of us
              consignors, gave no address nor phone number such we could contact
              him to recover our models. I had delivered an MKT brass EMD NW2 Phase
              IV for custom painting in NYO&W livery in February.

              After repeated failures in June to learn status on my consignment (I
              phoned the shop monthly in Mar and April to check on status, was out
              of state in May), I drove the 90 miles to personally check on his
              shop, found it empty and stripped of all inventory, shelves,
              counters. The property administrator had posted an inventory seizure
              notice and lock on the store's door due to unpaid rent but the
              proprietor had first cleaned out the store before the notice was
              posted (dated 18 May 2010). The notice had the administrator's name
              and phone number and through the property management company (Paula
              at Lynn Morrison Co, Tucson, AZ) and Google searches, I was able to
              track down the proprietor's home address and phone number:

              Martin Cohen
              3868 W. Links Dr.
              Anthem, AZ 85086
              PH 623-551-8842

              Martin does not return phone calls as he promises. He's a smooth
              talker, very pleasant on the phone, makes a lot of promises but
              follows through with none of them. After I requested he return it to
              me, he twice said he mailed my locomotive (unpainted - he said he
              couldn't paint [in his garage] at least until October when the
              weather cools off). My own feeling is he hopes the consignors will
              give up (if no contact from consignee after a period of time, he can
              claim the engines as "abandoned property" and that he could sell the
              engines on eBay or whatever). After securing his home phone number, I
              pestered him with phone calls from June through the end of July when,
              after one last call this past Sunday evening, he told me that the
              Postal Service had "returned as undeliverable" my locomotive the
              previous Friday. He did not phone me to advise me that he had the
              engine. I told him I'd be down the next morning to pick it up. He
              tried to put me off by claiming medical appointments but I preempted
              him by showing up at his door at 7AM Monday. He handed me my loco, I
              checked it out (all OK), and was on my way. One other consignor of
              six locomotives in the Phoenix area to whom I provided Cohen's home
              contact information was able to do the same thing. Anyone who shipped
              a locomotive to The Freight Yard likely does not have the advantage
              of proximity. I had also reported the engine as stolen to the Phoenix
              Police Department (602-262-6151) the previous week (I notified
              Phoenix police of its recovery. I declined to press charges.). Also,
              if the Police had contacted him, this might have hastened the sudden
              reappearance of my locomotive.

              I also suggest keeping detailed records of any communication/contacts
              with Martin Cohen. If by mail, send a letter with Signature
              Confirmation or Certified Mail. If he says he will return the
              locomotive by mail, insist he send it by Priority Mail with the above
              SC, CM, or, at least, with Delivery Confirmation; each will have a
              tracking number. Demand he tell you the tracking number. This will
              prove he actually sent it. Insurance is up to you. Good luck in
              getting any deposit back; I just wrote off my $116 deposit. All I
              wanted was the return of my locomotive.

              If anyone needs further information, please feel free to contact me
              onlist or off or phone me (# below).

              Anyone know of a reliable high quality custom model RR paint shop?

              Good luck!
              Fred Stevens, Arizona Division of the New York, Ontario and Western
              Prescott, AZ
              607-316-1369




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14747 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
              Please Richard,
               
              Post some photos. No need for approval.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Richard <rh@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 5, 2010 1:21:03 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] MDC Boxcab Rebuild

               

              Hi to all members,
              I'm a newbee to this group so I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or not but I will describ it in hopes it meets moderator approval.

              For a long time I have been trying to come up with a better way of powering the old MDC Boxcabs. Any one that owns one knows how noisy and eratic they can be. I've tried re-gearing and more recently, a chain drive but none of these revisions were satisfactory. Then, just by dumb luck, I stumbled on a kit bash on eBay where someone had joined two boxcabs and some parts from a GE U-boat to make a NYC boxcab and then they placed this on an Athearn chassis. Well, this got my old brain to thinking about what I could do with a boxcab and an Athearn frame. Low and behold I came up with a one of a kind kitbashed boxcab that runs as nice as apple pie and to me, looks great.

              If anyone is interested and it gets moderator approval, I will be glad to post some photos and a brief description of how it was done. I am contemplating writing and article about it for RMC or MRR magazines so I don't want to give away the farm just yet but I can give some basics.
              Richard in Vermont


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14748 From: jim heckard Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
               
               
              Ray F W,  All,
               
               
                       Just resting here and going through Ebay and this listing caught my eye     370416508324   Vintage Varney HO Scale Locomotive, METAL,  parts       It shows a Varney undecorated Aero Train engine.  Even his description says "material - metal"  and    ALL METAL.
               
                  Only know plastic body. Never saw a Varney metal body, just frame. Yet seller keeps saying all metal. Do you think he is all wet or just mislabeling it wrong ?
               
                                                              Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14749 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
              Jim, To the best of my knowledge, Varney never made anything BUT PLASTIC
              Aerotrain engine and coach bodies. I know I can safely bet a Yellowstone
              that there were never any metal bodied Aerotrain pieces. He his both, all wet
              and has mislabled the item. Perhaps with its metalic silver color and the
              added heft of it with the frame and motor, he is mistaking it for metal --
              just to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's good he's not starting this
              off at $10,000 or we might assume he's trying to rip off the public. Ray
              F.W. </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14750 From: Carl Neste Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Articulated headlight placement
              The Great Northern M1 and some M2s had boiler front-mounted headlights. Since these things were rebuilt and updated many times, most of them were relocated to the pilot deck eventually.
              Carl Neste


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 8:58 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Articulated headlight placement

               

               
               
                 Can anyone tell me if any articulated steam engine had the headlight on the front of the boiler ?
               
                                                                                                        Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14751 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
              Hi All!!
               
              Is anyone else plannng on bidding on this because i know I was... I wanted to see this metal version for myself.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 5, 2010 7:25:07 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?

               

              Jim, To the best of my knowledge, Varney never made anything BUT PLASTIC
              Aerotrain engine and coach bodies. I know I can safely bet a Yellowstone
              that there were never any metal bodied Aerotrain pieces. He his both, all wet
              and has mislabled the item. Perhaps with its metalic silver color and the
              added heft of it with the frame and motor, he is mistaking it for metal --
              just to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's good he's not starting this
              off at $10,000 or we might assume he's trying to rip off the public. Ray
              F.W. </HTML>


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14752 From: tom leen Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
              Oh, Fred, glad you got your loco back.  This sounds like some interesting stuff for the Peoples Court.  It's too bad that some people are such shmucks.
              Tom

              --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:

              From: Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, dandh@yahoogroups.com, HOrailroading@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: owrhs@yahoogroups.com, HOYARDSALE@yahoogroups.com, steameraweathering@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 5:13 PM

               
              To anyone who sent any model locomotives and/or rolling stock to The
              Freight Yard in Phoenix, AZ for custom painting, please be advised
              The Freight Yard closed its doors in May and the proprietor made a
              midnight raid on his shop and removed all inventory to his home in
              Anthem, AZ including all stock delivered to him by us for painting.
              His shop phone is disconnected, his website is down, he doesn't
              answer emails, and his business is no longer listed in Model
              Railroading magazine. He made no notifications to any of us
              consignors, gave no address nor phone number such we could contact
              him to recover our models. I had delivered an MKT brass EMD NW2 Phase
              IV for custom painting in NYO&W livery in February.

              After repeated failures in June to learn status on my consignment (I
              phoned the shop monthly in Mar and April to check on status, was out
              of state in May), I drove the 90 miles to personally check on his
              shop, found it empty and stripped of all inventory, shelves,
              counters. The property administrator had posted an inventory seizure
              notice and lock on the store's door due to unpaid rent but the
              proprietor had first cleaned out the store before the notice was
              posted (dated 18 May 2010). The notice had the administrator's name
              and phone number and through the property management company (Paula
              at Lynn Morrison Co, Tucson, AZ) and Google searches, I was able to
              track down the proprietor's home address and phone number:

              Martin Cohen
              3868 W. Links Dr.
              Anthem, AZ 85086
              PH 623-551-8842

              Martin does not return phone calls as he promises. He's a smooth
              talker, very pleasant on the phone, makes a lot of promises but
              follows through with none of them. After I requested he return it to
              me, he twice said he mailed my locomotive (unpainted - he said he
              couldn't paint [in his garage] at least until October when the
              weather cools off). My own feeling is he hopes the consignors will
              give up (if no contact from consignee after a period of time, he can
              claim the engines as "abandoned property" and that he could sell the
              engines on eBay or whatever). After securing his home phone number, I
              pestered him with phone calls from June through the end of July when,
              after one last call this past Sunday evening, he told me that the
              Postal Service had "returned as undeliverable" my locomotive the
              previous Friday. He did not phone me to advise me that he had the
              engine. I told him I'd be down the next morning to pick it up. He
              tried to put me off by claiming medical appointments but I preempted
              him by showing up at his door at 7AM Monday. He handed me my loco, I
              checked it out (all OK), and was on my way. One other consignor of
              six locomotives in the Phoenix area to whom I provided Cohen's home
              contact information was able to do the same thing. Anyone who shipped
              a locomotive to The Freight Yard likely does not have the advantage
              of proximity. I had also reported the engine as stolen to the Phoenix
              Police Department (602-262-6151) the previous week (I notified
              Phoenix police of its recovery. I declined to press charges.). Also,
              if the Police had contacted him, this might have hastened the sudden
              reappearance of my locomotive.

              I also suggest keeping detailed records of any communication/contacts
              with Martin Cohen. If by mail, send a letter with Signature
              Confirmation or Certified Mail. If he says he will return the
              locomotive by mail, insist he send it by Priority Mail with the above
              SC, CM, or, at least, with Delivery Confirmation; each will have a
              tracking number. Demand he tell you the tracking number. This will
              prove he actually sent it. Insurance is up to you. Good luck in
              getting any deposit back; I just wrote off my $116 deposit. All I
              wanted was the return of my locomotive.

              If anyone needs further information, please feel free to contact me
              onlist or off or phone me (# below).

              Anyone know of a reliable high quality custom model RR paint shop?

              Good luck!
              Fred Stevens, Arizona Division of the New York, Ontario and Western
              Prescott, AZ
              607-316-1369
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14753 From: rcjge Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
              Hey Richard:

              Still have my "original" MDC Boxcab from the 70's. Had it redone by a guy who advertised in MR sometime back about re-engineering them. Well $110 later I had it shipped to a fella I trusted to evaluate it. He wasn't happy about the way it was modded so he set to work on it some and got a bit happier. The fact is that with the original drive system it will never be great.
              I'd love to see your solution. I have an article about redoing the power sys in them from a Canadian Modeler that was well received, just don't know where I put the article.

              So definitely go for it like Sean said!

              -Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rh@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi to all members,
              > I'm a newbee to this group so I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or not but I will describ it in hopes it meets moderator approval.
              >
              > For a long time I have been trying to come up with a better way of powering the old MDC Boxcabs. Any one that owns one knows how noisy and eratic they can be. I've tried re-gearing and more recently, a chain drive but none of these revisions were satisfactory. Then, just by dumb luck, I stumbled on a kit bash on eBay where someone had joined two boxcabs and some parts from a GE U-boat to make a NYC boxcab and then they placed this on an Athearn chassis. Well, this got my old brain to thinking about what I could do with a boxcab and an Athearn frame. Low and behold I came up with a one of a kind kitbashed boxcab that runs as nice as apple pie and to me, looks great.
              >
              > If anyone is interested and it gets moderator approval, I will be glad to post some photos and a brief description of how it was done. I am contemplating writing and article about it for RMC or MRR magazines so I don't want to give away the farm just yet but I can give some basics.
              > Richard in Vermont
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14754 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/5/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
              Richard wrote:
               

              Hi to all members,
              I'm a newbee to this group so I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or not but I will describ it in hopes it meets moderator approval.

              For a long time I have been trying to come up with a better way of powering the old MDC Boxcabs. Any one that owns one knows how noisy and eratic they can be. I've tried re-gearing and more recently, a chain drive but none of these revisions were satisfactory. Then, just by dumb luck, I stumbled on a kit bash on eBay where someone had joined two boxcabs and some parts from a GE U-boat to make a NYC boxcab and then they placed this on an Athearn chassis. Well, this got my old brain to thinking about what I could do with a boxcab and an Athearn frame. Low and behold I came up with a one of a kind kitbashed boxcab that runs as nice as apple pie and to me, looks great.

              If anyone is interested and it gets moderator approval, I will be glad to post some photos and a brief description of how it was done. I am contemplating writing and article about it for RMC or MRR magazines so I don't want to give away the farm just yet but I can give some basics.
              Richard in Vermont

              _
              Richard,

              we surely would like to see your conversion.  I love the Boxcab body... having the general outline of an early GE loco its a good starting point for a number of conversions. Ten years ago, I have built two heavy electrics with those  bodies, and I plan to do more.

              Gerold


                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14755 From: rcjge Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
              Pretty Smurphy Gerold!!!

              These are the silk purse from the sows ear excercise for sure!

              -Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14756 From: rcjge Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              Hey Ray F.W:

              I had meant a 2-8-4 btw. Didn't mean to make a "Mountain"! ;-)

              Sounds straight forward as you describe it, so I set up an ongoing search for a `51 catalog and I'll watch for a Berkie boiler/cab. Does it have to be the `49 model and did I understand you right I can use a Super Mike Chassis? Would a Super Consolie chassis work?

              Best,
              Gareth





              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, erieberk@... wrote:
              >
              > Hey Gareth, You asked about putting a "4 wheel leading truck on a super
              > Mike chassis and fitted (to) a Berkie Boiler." Now you're talking about
              > making a Super Berk. FYI, a 4-wheel leading truck will not make a Berkshire.
              > Berkshires have 2-wheel leading trucks and 4-wheel trailing trucks. A 4-wheel
              > leading truck (with a 2-wheel trailing truck) will give you a Mountain, not
              > a Berkshire.
              >
              > If you want to make a Super Berkshire out of the Super Mikado that you now
              > have, just put a 4-wheel trailing truck on your existing frame and switch
              > the boiler to the brass one, made in 1949, that was used not only for the
              > Mikado (Standard and Sprung) at that time, but for the Berkshire (Standard and
              > Sprung) and Standard Hudson -- as it was designed to do. No other changes or
              > modifications are necessary, as Varney used the SAME sprung frame, and for
              > most of the time the SAME cast brass boiler that both the Mikado and
              > Berkshire used. Both engine kits were virtually identical except for a different
              > trailing truck.
              >
              > You couldn't use 72" drivers without using the longer Northern frame -- and
              > not only is there no need to use it, but to use it under the brass Berk
              > boiler would take some extensive modifications -- if it would even fit (not to
              > mention it would look out of place). You would need to use the much larger
              > Northern boiler -- which would look really odd as a Berkshire (too hugh). I
              > would suggest your getting a 1951 Varney Catalog off of eBay, the one with
              > 1001 Varney parts. This will show you much of what was available; many of
              > the Varney parts were interchangeable, and this will show you just which
              > ones. Ray F.W. </HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14757 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Finally a Varney Super Mike!
              Gareth, The full title of the 1951 catalog is; "1001 GENUINE HO LOCO & CAR
              PARTS" by VARNEY. It covers a representative of most of the Varney engines
              produced post-War, up until that time, with fully exploded illustrations of
              all the parts that went into each engine and a fairly complete listing of
              all the parts, by catalog numbers. This should be very useful to you.

              You may even want to get one or more of Varney's regular catalogs covering
              their offerings for the year they were published, as many of us find them
              indispensible, although they don't have exploded views of the engines showing
              all the individual parts. Regardless of their format (full-size 8 1/2" x
              11", or the "Miniature-Edition"), they're all entitled: "MODEL LOCOMOTIVES AND
              ROLLING STOCK" by Gordon Varney. All of the post-War catalogs have a
              parts listing towards to back, the larger format being more comprehensive.

              Right now, there are two pre-War and two post-War Varney catalogs up on
              eBay, but the post-War ones are "Buy-It-Nows," possibly priced a little heavy,
              yet not all that bad for the condition they're in. The 1939 catalog is #
              280543515026, the 1941 catalog -- 180542015859, the 1948 catalog -
              130407010601 and the 1949 catalog - 130407010593.

              The post-War cast brass boiler/cab (Varney part # 1992 with Smoke Stack
              Drilled [# 2079A with Weight]) was not designated only as a Berkshire boiler,
              although yes, this is the one you want. It was first produced in 1949 (on,
              or before June), but from there after, when it was produced it never changed
              right up to 1957 when Varney sold the company to Sol Kramer. So, ANY
              post-War cast brass boiler/cab is what you need to look for from 1949, thereafter.

              While the design of Super Mikado, with the cast lead boiler (# 1850D, also
              used on the Pacific) which you have was first produced after the War, when
              the cast brass boiler was introduced in 1949 this was the boiler that was
              then issued with both the Rigid-Frame (Economy) Mikado and the Super Mikado --
              and also the Super Berkshire and the non-streamlined Rigid-Frame (Economy)
              Hudson. During the Korean War, this cast brass boiler was temporarily
              discontinued, from 1951 up to 1953 in favor again (during that time period) of the
              cast lead boiler that was always used on the Pacific. From 1953 on, the
              cast brass boiler was continued for all of the previous models I just
              described. From 1957, and continuing with Sol Kramer through 1968, a specially made
              cast tin/lead boiler was used on the Berkshire (only), using the cast brass
              boiler as it's base, but only after having much detail added onto this
              prototype model before making the new mold for it. This last part is not your
              concern, but I thought I'd add it in to complete the Berk model's history.

              The Super Mikado frame and the Super Berkshire frame are essentially
              identical, and can be used interchangeably. While the side frames for the Super
              Mike are cataloged as 1766-C (Left) and 1766-D (Right) and the Super Berk
              side frames are cataloged as 1766-E (Left) and 1766-F (Right), I see absolutley
              no difference in them -- aside from being left or right. A minor
              difference associated with the running gear of both of these engines though, is that
              while the Super Mikado used the Alligator-type Valve Gear, the Super
              Berkshire used the Laird-type Valve Gear -- with their specific Crossheads, etc.,
              necessitating using their specific Cylinder Blocks, but the Frame, Cylinder
              Block and Valve Gear can be transferred as a unit from one boiler to the
              other. No, the Super Consolidation frame cannot be used as it's much shorter
              and won't fit the # 1992 cast brass boiler. Ray F. Wetzel</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14758 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild [2 Attachments]
              Hey Guys,
               
              Got a special facy for the boxcab myself.  Here is the one I did a while back. Looks pretty close to one of Gerold's. Just different...
               
               
               
              Love your layout Gerold!
               
              Sean
               

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 2:13:22 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MDC Boxcab Rebuild [2 Attachments]

               

              Richard wrote:

               

              Hi to all members,
              I'm a newbee to this group so I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or not but I will describ it in hopes it meets moderator approval.

              For a long time I have been trying to come up with a better way of powering the old MDC Boxcabs. Any one that owns one knows how noisy and eratic they can be. I've tried re-gearing and more recently, a chain drive but none of these revisions were satisfactory. Then, just by dumb luck, I stumbled on a kit bash on eBay where someone had joined two boxcabs and some parts from a GE U-boat to make a NYC boxcab and then they placed this on an Athearn chassis. Well, this got my old brain to thinking about what I could do with a boxcab and an Athearn frame. Low and behold I came up with a one of a kind kitbashed boxcab that runs as nice as apple pie and to me, looks great.

              If anyone is interested and it gets moderator approval, I will be glad to post some photos and a brief description of how it was done. I am contemplating writing and article about it for RMC or MRR magazines so I don't want to give away the farm just yet but I can give some basics.
              Richard in Vermont

              _
              Richard,

              we surely would like to see your conversion.  I love the Boxcab body... having the general outline of an early GE loco its a good starting point for a number of conversions. Ten years ago, I have built two heavy electrics with those  bodies, and I plan to do more.

              Gerold



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14759 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: SP Stuff for sale
              I have six Holgate and Reynolds HO SP Gallery Commute cars. Three are built up, MDC trucks and Con-Cor plastic roofs.  The others  are in various stages of assembly.. $50 plus shipping for all.  Offers considered.
              Glenn Joesten
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14760 From: jbark76 Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Old DC motors
              The Model Craftsman, October 1945.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14761 From: Dick Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC Boxcab Rebuild
              In a similar vein, last winter I put a Bachmann GE 70T drive into an MDC Climax body. The Climax of course had come with the same drive as the Boxcab. The Bachmann drive fit nicely into the shell with no modifications to the drive except to remove the LED light boards. I then made up an adapter piece for the MDC shell that holds the shell at the proper height. I built up the pilot decks to hold the MDC pilots, added couplers and was done. The resulting loco works fine, even had a basic DCC decoder built in. I've picked up another GE70T loco and plan to do my Boxcab the same way.

              Dick Moessner


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rh@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi to all members,
              > I'm a newbee to this group so I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or not but I will describ it in hopes it meets moderator approval.
              >
              > For a long time I have been trying to come up with a better way of powering the old MDC Boxcabs. Any one that owns one knows how noisy and eratic they can be. I've tried re-gearing and more recently, a chain drive but none of these revisions were satisfactory. Then, just by dumb luck, I stumbled on a kit bash on eBay where someone had joined two boxcabs and some parts from a GE U-boat to make a NYC boxcab and then they placed this on an Athearn chassis. Well, this got my old brain to thinking about what I could do with a boxcab and an Athearn frame. Low and behold I came up with a one of a kind kitbashed boxcab that runs as nice as apple pie and to me, looks great.
              >
              > If anyone is interested and it gets moderator approval, I will be glad to post some photos and a brief description of how it was done. I am contemplating writing and article about it for RMC or MRR magazines so I don't want to give away the farm just yet but I can give some basics.
              > Richard in Vermont
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14762 From: Dick Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              First, my thanks go out to all who provided the info I was looking for regarding painting the Belle.

              John - Yes, if you can print a Belle decal set, I would be interested in obtaining two sets.

              Dick Moessner

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > I would be willing to make some decals for the Belle. I don't know if the green is meant to match the paint (Almost impossible with a Alps) (or even screen painting unless one had the paint to match it with). If it is supposed to match the background color the best thing to do is leave the green ares clear allowing the green to show through.
              >
              > For this reason and due to other comments I doubt that the decal green is as dark as the painted green.
              >
              > The red don't look all that rich to me, at least on the photo. But then who knows if these decals are faded or not. If you can supply a better scan I would appreciate it.
              >
              > John Hagen
              > OBS-CALS The obscure decal people
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > The Decalomanias set for the "Belle of the ' 80's" (part # 9981) is quite
              > > > ornate, especially for the ones that are applied to the tender, although
              > > > there are no railroad names. It's described as "In rich red and green,
              > > > worked
              > > > in gold."
              > > >
              > > Have just dug out my second, unfinished Belle ( have an built up one
              > > too, rebuilt from a terrible mess) - box contains the decals mentioned.
              > > As the base color is green I feel the color included should have been
              > > the same green to give an uniform look to the tender.
              > >
              > > I understand yahoo will reduce size/ quality of the scan, so if anybody
              > > wants better pictures send my a note. My decals are so brittle they sure
              > > would desintegrate if soaked... so it would be best if somebody could
              > > duplicate them with an Alps printer, or maybe even by silk screen process.
              > >
              > > Gerold
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14763 From: John H Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              Dick,

              I can and will but it'll be about 3 weeks. The artwork is what takes the time. This really isn't all that complicated but i am backed up a tad.

              John

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <rb_train@...> wrote:
              >
              > First, my thanks go out to all who provided the info I was looking for regarding painting the Belle.
              >
              > John - Yes, if you can print a Belle decal set, I would be interested in obtaining two sets.
              >
              > Dick Moessner
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I would be willing to make some decals for the Belle. I don't know if the green is meant to match the paint (Almost impossible with a Alps) (or even screen painting unless one had the paint to match it with). If it is supposed to match the background color the best thing to do is leave the green ares clear allowing the green to show through.
              > >
              > > For this reason and due to other comments I doubt that the decal green is as dark as the painted green.
              > >
              > > The red don't look all that rich to me, at least on the photo. But then who knows if these decals are faded or not. If you can supply a better scan I would appreciate it.
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              > > OBS-CALS The obscure decal people
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > The Decalomanias set for the "Belle of the ' 80's" (part # 9981) is quite
              > > > > ornate, especially for the ones that are applied to the tender, although
              > > > > there are no railroad names. It's described as "In rich red and green,
              > > > > worked
              > > > > in gold."
              > > > >
              > > > Have just dug out my second, unfinished Belle ( have an built up one
              > > > too, rebuilt from a terrible mess) - box contains the decals mentioned.
              > > > As the base color is green I feel the color included should have been
              > > > the same green to give an uniform look to the tender.
              > > >
              > > > I understand yahoo will reduce size/ quality of the scan, so if anybody
              > > > wants better pictures send my a note. My decals are so brittle they sure
              > > > would desintegrate if soaked... so it would be best if somebody could
              > > > duplicate them with an Alps printer, or maybe even by silk screen process.
              > > >
              > > > Gerold
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14764 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?
              I could also use two sets--glenn joesten

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John H" <sprinthag@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 2:39 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Belle Color & Decals?


              > Dick,
              >
              > I can and will but it'll be about 3 weeks. The artwork is what takes the
              > time. This really isn't all that complicated but i am backed up a tad.
              >
              > John
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <rb_train@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> First, my thanks go out to all who provided the info I was looking for
              >> regarding painting the Belle.
              >>
              >> John - Yes, if you can print a Belle decal set, I would be interested in
              >> obtaining two sets.
              >>
              >> Dick Moessner
              >>
              >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@> wrote:
              >> >
              >> > I would be willing to make some decals for the Belle. I don't know if
              >> > the green is meant to match the paint (Almost impossible with a Alps)
              >> > (or even screen painting unless one had the paint to match it with). If
              >> > it is supposed to match the background color the best thing to do is
              >> > leave the green ares clear allowing the green to show through.
              >> >
              >> > For this reason and due to other comments I doubt that the decal green
              >> > is as dark as the painted green.
              >> >
              >> > The red don't look all that rich to me, at least on the photo. But then
              >> > who knows if these decals are faded or not. If you can supply a better
              >> > scan I would appreciate it.
              >> >
              >> > John Hagen
              >> > OBS-CALS The obscure decal people
              >> >
              >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
              >> > >
              >> > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > >
              >> > > > The Decalomanias set for the "Belle of the ' 80's" (part # 9981) is
              >> > > > quite
              >> > > > ornate, especially for the ones that are applied to the tender,
              >> > > > although
              >> > > > there are no railroad names. It's described as "In rich red and
              >> > > > green,
              >> > > > worked
              >> > > > in gold."
              >> > > >
              >> > > Have just dug out my second, unfinished Belle ( have an built up one
              >> > > too, rebuilt from a terrible mess) - box contains the decals
              >> > > mentioned.
              >> > > As the base color is green I feel the color included should have been
              >> > > the same green to give an uniform look to the tender.
              >> > >
              >> > > I understand yahoo will reduce size/ quality of the scan, so if
              >> > > anybody
              >> > > wants better pictures send my a note. My decals are so brittle they
              >> > > sure
              >> > > would desintegrate if soaked... so it would be best if somebody could
              >> > > duplicate them with an Alps printer, or maybe even by silk screen
              >> > > process.
              >> > >
              >> > > Gerold
              >> > >
              >> >
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14765 From: pineconelumberng@sbcglobal.net Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Vintage Rolling Stock
              Hello all.
              I wanted to ask the moderater or others if the following would be appropriate for this site.
              I am having to down size my HO vintage rolling stock inventory. I have many Varney kits built and unbuilt as well as Lionel still in the box. Most have not been on a track before and are still in original fine condition boxes. I also have a couple of Mantua metal passenger/ combo. car kits.(not sure the year of these but they appear pre-1960)
              I even have reciepts for some of the items purchased at Berkeley Hardware, Ca. in the late 50's and early 60's.
              Also track and related items in original boxes from Atlas as well as display boxes for some other items.
              Some old diesels as well.

              The Question: Are we allowed on this site to post collections for sale as well as post photos of the items to be sold? The photos can be deleted after the object is sold.
              My MRR interest has changed and I wish for these items to go to persons who will take care of them as they were handed down from the Family.

              I will sale or trade for HON3. Special interest, SPNG and west coast logging.

              I do not mind being contacted personally as well.

              Thank you,
              Dennis
              Lakeport, Ca.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14766 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Vintage Rolling Stock
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <pineconelumberng@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 9:31 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Rolling Stock


              > Hello all.
              > I wanted to ask the moderater or others if the following would be
              > appropriate for this site.
              > I am having to down size my HO vintage rolling stock inventory. I have
              > many Varney kits built and unbuilt as well as Lionel still in the box.
              > Most have not been on a track before and are still in original fine
              > condition boxes. I also have a couple of Mantua metal passenger/ combo.
              > car kits.(not sure the year of these but they appear pre-1960)
              > I even have reciepts for some of the items purchased at Berkeley Hardware,
              > Ca. in the late 50's and early 60's.
              > Also track and related items in original boxes from Atlas as well as
              > display boxes for some other items.
              > Some old diesels as well.
              >
              > The Question: Are we allowed on this site to post collections for sale as
              > well as post photos of the items to be sold? The photos can be deleted
              > after the object is sold.
              > My MRR interest has changed and I wish for these items to go to persons
              > who will take care of them as they were handed down from the Family.
              >
              > I will sale or trade for HON3. Special interest, SPNG and west coast
              > logging.
              >
              > I do not mind being contacted personally as well.
              >
              > Thank you,
              > Dennis
              > Lakeport, Ca.

              For collectors one time postings are fine, and yes, you can make photo
              albums.

              What I don't like though, would be long lists, and repeat postings. If you
              have a lot to offer, ask people to contact you off list to get your listing
              of what you have. Also, NO DEALERS!!!!!!

              Commercial ads WILL be deleted.

              When responding to "for sale" offers, please respond directly to the seller,
              not to the list.

              Thanks

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14767 From: Matthew Date: 8/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Vintage Rolling Stock
              Don,

              Thanks for the clarification and guidance. I too have some excess old HO that I would prefer went to someone who cared about it.

              I appreciate the understanding on your part.

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <pineconelumberng@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 9:31 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Rolling Stock
              >
              >
              > > Hello all.
              > > I wanted to ask the moderater or others if the following would be
              > > appropriate for this site.
              > > I am having to down size my HO vintage rolling stock inventory. I have
              > > many Varney kits built and unbuilt as well as Lionel still in the box.
              > > Most have not been on a track before and are still in original fine
              > > condition boxes. I also have a couple of Mantua metal passenger/ combo.
              > > car kits.(not sure the year of these but they appear pre-1960)
              > > I even have reciepts for some of the items purchased at Berkeley Hardware,
              > > Ca. in the late 50's and early 60's.
              > > Also track and related items in original boxes from Atlas as well as
              > > display boxes for some other items.
              > > Some old diesels as well.
              > >
              > > The Question: Are we allowed on this site to post collections for sale as
              > > well as post photos of the items to be sold? The photos can be deleted
              > > after the object is sold.
              > > My MRR interest has changed and I wish for these items to go to persons
              > > who will take care of them as they were handed down from the Family.
              > >
              > > I will sale or trade for HON3. Special interest, SPNG and west coast
              > > logging.
              > >
              > > I do not mind being contacted personally as well.
              > >
              > > Thank you,
              > > Dennis
              > > Lakeport, Ca.
              >
              > For collectors one time postings are fine, and yes, you can make photo
              > albums.
              >
              > What I don't like though, would be long lists, and repeat postings. If you
              > have a lot to offer, ask people to contact you off list to get your listing
              > of what you have. Also, NO DEALERS!!!!!!
              >
              > Commercial ads WILL be deleted.
              >
              > When responding to "for sale" offers, please respond directly to the seller,
              > not to the list.
              >
              > Thanks
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14768 From: Randolph Torres Date: 8/8/2010
              Subject: Selling old discontinued kits, e-mail off group for avaliability
              Model Discription Manufacturer Condition Sell Price

              HO Brass Engines for sale
              Hallmark Baldwin S-12 unpainted $50.00

              HO Plastic engines for sale
              Resen un-built HH660 hood with Proto 2000 S-2 as prime mover and frame. Decoder , uninstalled included. $50.00

              PENNSYLVANIA RR Bulkhead Flat double kit Quality Craft Models #352 unbuilt kit wood $12.99
              Wood 40' box car un-decorated HD Scale Models unbuilt kit wood $5.99
              70' MC Pulpwood Car double kit Ambroid #5 sold $12.99
              70' MO PAC Express Reefer Quality Craft Models unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              60' C.B&Q. Plug Door Boxcar Gloor Cradt Models Kit # 313 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              85' TRAILER TRAIN Piggy Back Cars Quality Craft Models T-1 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              ACF Center Flow Hopper Ambroid (Second Series) #3 Reserved $12.99
              Pulman Standard Full Door Box Car Ambroid (Second Series) #2 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              ACF 70Ton Covered Hopper E&B Valley unbuilt kit plastic $8.99
              50'MANESHA WOODEN WARE Box Car Mail Line Models unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              ACF Center Flow Hopper Ambroid (Second Series) #3 unbuilt kit wood $12.99
              Wood 40' reefer car un-decorated HD Scale Models unbuilt kit wood $5.99
              50' B&O "CANSTOCK" Boxcar Gloor Cradt Models Kit # 373 sold $8.99
              SOUTHERN 60' Boxcar Quality Craft Models Kit S-3 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              70' TRANSPOPRT LEASING "Hellow Dolly" Box Car Quality Craft Models Kit S-3 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              UNION PACIFIC Bulkhead Flat double kit Quality Craft Models #361 Reserved $12.99
              SOUTHERN "BIG JOHN" 100T covered Hopper Quality Craft Models Kit S-5 sold $8.99
              B&O Cushion Coil Cat Ambroid (Second Series) #2 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              UNICEL REEFER Ambroid unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              PENCILVANIA R.R Hy Cube Box Car Quality Craft Models Kit P-3 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              PEN CENTRAL 86' 8Door Hy Cube Box Car Quality Craft Models Kit P-5 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              85' TRAILER TRAIN Piggy Back Cars Quality Craft Models T-1 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              PENCILVANIA R.R Hy Cube Box Car Quality Craft Models Kit P-3 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              PENCILVANIA R.R Hy Cube Box Car Quality Craft Models Kit P-3 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              CB&Q Dynamometer Car Ambroid #9 (Seccond Series) unbuilt kit wood $12.99
              40' Single Sheathed Box Car Ambroid #K-12 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              50th Anniversary Mil Composit Gondola & N&W H.. Ambroid #K-8 unbuilt kit wood $12.99
              REA Express Reefer Ambroid unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              40' PRR Automobile Box Car Quality Craft Models Reserved $8.99
              Outside Braced Refrigerator Car Ambroid #5 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              NYC 61' Well-Hole Flat Car Quality Craft Models #334 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              PRR 2 bay Hopper Gloor Cradt Models Kit #H31 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              N.R.C.C. Bananas 36' Reefer Mail Line Models unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              AT&SF 60' Postal Cal (Old metal sides & Wood kit) Walthers unbuilt kit wood & Metal $10.99
              60' Coach / Utility Walthers unbuilt kit wood & Metal $10.99
              60' Combination / Utility Walthers unbuilt kit wood & Metal $10.99
              GN Airslide Hopper Ambroid #H11 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              Golden Loaf Flour Airslide Hopper Ambroid #H23 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              50' TT Flat with 40' Mechanical Trailer Quality Craft Models #331 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              D&H Caboose Ambroid #H15 Reserved $8.99
              Early 40' Steel Flat Wood Gon Sides #4040 Tichy #4040 unbuilt plastic kit $8.99
              Choctaw, Oklahoma & Gulf Gondola #HO-49 LaBelle Woodworking unbuilt kit wood $10.99
              52' War Emergency Gondola Tichy #4041D unbuilt plastic kit $8.99
              Soo Line Side Door Caboose #HO43 LaBelle Woodworking unbuilt kit wood $10.99
              Texas Midland Boxcar #HO 51 LaBelle Woodworking unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              NYO&W Milk Car #H21 Ambroid #H21 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              Western Union Material Car Ambroid #H6 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              Riverside nsulated Oil Tank Car. Ambroid #H4 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              LaserKit Illinois Terminal Bay Window Caboose LaserKit #870 unbuilt kit wood $30.00
              Delaware & Hudson 41' steel gondola Accurail #3705 unbuilt plastic kit $6.00
              NYC Container Car Ambroid #H12 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              SCL Stump Car Tichy #4043D unbuilt plastic kit $9.00
              Colorado Midland Hanrahan Refrigerator Car LaBelle Woodworking unbuilt kit wood $10.95
              Open Platform Passenger Coach Ambroid unbuilt kit wood $10.95
              Tank Car 60" Dome ICC class 103 Tichy #4025 unbuilt plastic kit $9.00
              Matherson Dry Ice Car Laconia unbuilt kit wood $20.00
              Van Allmen Pickle Car Ambroid #2 unbuilt kit wood $8.99
              Delaware & Hudson 41' steel gondola Accurail #3705 unbuilt plastic kit $6.00
              Steam Wrecking Crane 120T #4010 Tichy #4010 unbuilt plastic kit $20.00
              Open Platform Passenger Combination Car Ambroid unbuilt kit wood $10.95
              USRA Hopper Car 30' 2 Bay Tichy #4027 unbuilt plastic kit $8.99
              Boom Car Tichy #4022 unbuilt plastic kit $8.99

              Interlocking Tower HO Revell Authentic Scale $5.00
              4 Trackside Buildings HO Revell Authentic Scale $7.00
              Weekly Harald HO Revell Authentic Scale $10.50
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14769 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Selling old discontinued kits, e-mail off group for avaliability
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Randolph Torres" <rmtorres.7901@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 12:10 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Selling old discontinued kits, e-mail off group for
              avaliability


              > Model Discription Manufacturer Condition Sell Price
              >
              > HO Brass Engines for sale
              > Hallmark Baldwin S-12 unpainted $50.00
              >
              > HO Plastic engines for sale
              > Resen un-built HH660 hood with Proto 2000 S-2 as prime mover and frame.
              > Decoder , uninstalled included. $50.00

              I approved this one, but it is pushing it as far as length.

              When you have this many, I would prefer you say something like "I have quite
              a few unbuilt vintage kits (or whatever), please contact me off list for a
              listing."

              If you're looking for a hard a fast guideline, I'd say keep it under half a
              dozen pieces or so, and they DO have to fall within the scope of the kinds
              of models we're discussing here.

              Thanks

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14770 From: leetrains Date: 8/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Note To Anyone Who Sent Models To The Freight Yard In Phoenix
              Not mine but a friend of mine that did business with them...

              Lee
              Yuma, AZ



              ""This is most interesting. I had ordered the N Scale George Bush 4141 SD70 from KATO from him before he went out of business. I figured it was a lost cause and he hadn't billed me for it so I reordered it from Fifer Hobby in Las Cruces. When the loco was released last month by KATO, I received two locos. One from the Freight Yard and one from Fifer. So even though the Freight Yard had closed it's doors it still fulfilled it's order.

              If Martin had not removed any of the consignment stock etc from his store, I assume it would have been impounded by the building owner. So in one way it is good that he did.

              I am not trying to stick up for Martin but he did me right at any rate.""




              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Fred Stevens K2FRD <k2frd@...> wrote:
              >
              > To anyone who sent any model locomotives and/or rolling stock to The
              > Freight Yard in Phoenix, AZ for custom painting, please be advised
              > The Freight Yard closed its doors in May and the proprietor made a
              > midnight raid on his shop and removed all inventory to his home in
              > Anthem, AZ including all stock delivered to him by us for painting.
              > His shop phone is disconnected, his website is down, he doesn't
              > answer emails, and his business is no longer listed in Model
              > Railroading magazine. He made no notifications to any of us
              > consignors, gave no address nor phone number such we could contact
              > him to recover our models. I had delivered an MKT brass EMD NW2 Phase
              > IV
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14771 From: rcjge Date: 8/8/2010
              Subject: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
              Hey Gents:

              I've had the two metal chassis frame parts of a Lindsay F7 (Globe body) for a few days. It would appear since I only have the rear and middle part (metal) of the chassis that the forward part based on reading the instructions is plastic.

              I'm hoping one of you guys is a real Lindsay aficionado and can tell me a couple of things:

              a) Why is the main weight bearing part of the chassis in two parts?

              b) Why "attach" a plastic fore piece (again a SEPARATE piece) why not extend the "middle" piece forward to allow for the front dummy truck to attach to it?

              Anyone know, or have a S.W.A.G (sophisticated wild ass guess)!? Curious as to why they designed it the way they did...???

              Regards,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14772 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Winton 2-6-6-6 Auction
               
               
                    If anyone is interested in  a nice rare assembled and working vintage HO piece that was just sold on eBay go to   # 260644076547    Big Vintage Brass HO 2-6-6-6 Allegheny Heavy Freight . This is by Winton.  In my opinion a bargain price.
               
                                                                                                     Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14773 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Auction
              I was watching it Jim.
               
              I thought I would bid if it stayed under $200, but it did not. Makes me darn pleased to see how well it did though. Had the discussion not happened when it did 1.5 years ago, I would probably would not have gotten mine.
               
              If in case you do not remember, I purchased my complete assembled (unpainted) Allegheny when it was sold with a complete
              Bowser Challenger. I paid ~$220 inc s/h for the pair. That was a bargain! I purchased mine within a day or so of you posting photos of yours and quite a lengthy discussion had taken place here. Had that not happened when it did, I would not have known what it was when I was looking at it and would probably not have bid on it. .... um  well, yes I still would have bid anyway.  
               
              Later!
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 6:13:35 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Winton 2-6-6-6 Auction

               

               
               
                    If anyone is interested in  a nice rare assembled and working vintage HO piece that was just sold on eBay go to   # 260644076547    Big Vintage Brass HO 2-6-6-6 Allegheny Heavy Freight . This is by Winton.  In my opinion a bargain price.
               
                                                                                                     Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14774 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              Hi All!

              I have of course another interesting find. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this old wood & diecast car? It has wood sides, roof & super-structure with diecast ends and details, including frame sides. It has what looks to be what I think they call a fish-belly.

              http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4875630278/

              If anyone has any ideas as to the make of this interesting and different car, please let me know. Still have not figured out how to attach images to these posts. Man! Jim has it figured out and I even coached him over the phone how to do things before...

              Thanks,
              Sean
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14775 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
              Gareth,
               
                        I can't help you concerning a Lindsay F-7 drive to fit a Globe body. I have a number of Lindsay engines and paper work but not for this item.  Also I have never heard of a set up like you mention where the frame was in parts with some metal some plastic. Interesting.
               
                  There were a number of drives produced by other companies to go into the Globe body. Athearn very shortly after the body produced his own drive. I know another was made by American Beauty that had a chain drive and flywheel. Sampson also had their own  drive  but if I remember right it was made to fit Varney F units. Of course none of this helps you.     Sorry.
               
                                                                         Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:42 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise

               

              Hey Gents:

              I've had the two metal chassis frame parts of a Lindsay F7 (Globe body) for a few days. It would appear since I only have the rear and middle part (metal) of the chassis that the forward part based on reading the instructions is plastic.

              I'm hoping one of you guys is a real Lindsay aficionado and can tell me a couple of things:

              a) Why is the main weight bearing part of the chassis in two parts?

              b) Why "attach" a plastic fore piece (again a SEPARATE piece) why not extend the "middle" piece forward to allow for the front dummy truck to attach to it?

              Anyone know, or have a S.W.A.G (sophisticated wild ass guess)!? Curious as to why they designed it the way they did...???

              Regards,
              Gareth

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14776 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              Sean,
                 
                  Can't help to ID the car. You know not a freight car collector. I'm sure others will help.
               
                  As for sending pictures as attachments you were a great teacher. That and an electronic miracle. Having a digital camera that came with a program for the computer to load and send pictures as attachments a big help. Otherwise I couldn't do it.
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 9:23 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Overland Oil & Transportation Co.

               

              Hi All!

              I have of course another interesting find. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this old wood & diecast car? It has wood sides, roof & super-structure with diecast ends and details, including frame sides. It has what looks to be what I think they call a fish-belly.

              http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4875630278/

              If anyone has any ideas as to the make of this interesting and different car, please let me know. Still have not figured out how to attach images to these posts. Man! Jim has it figured out and I even coached him over the phone how to do things before...

              Thanks,
              Sean

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14777 From: Rick Jones Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              On 8/9/2010 8:23 AM, 69_Mustang_Man wrote:
              > Hi All!
              >
              > I have of course another interesting find. Has anyone ever seen or
              > heard of this old wood& diecast car? It has wood sides, roof&
              > super-structure with diecast ends and details, including frame sides.
              > It has what looks to be what I think they call a fish-belly.

              Wow! I have never seen a fishbelly underframe - model or prototype -
              that was as exaggerated as that one.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14778 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Winton 2-6-6-6 Auction
              
              Sean,
               
                  If I didn't have the one I built I would have tried to win this for up to $300 even without the tender. I know the winner of this auction ( not a Yahoo member ). He tells me the seller is a very knowledgeable vintage HO person and they are exchanging a lot of information which I hope to have shared with me. Just glad to see another fine old vintage item go to a good home.
               
                                                                           Jim
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 9:06 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Winton 2-6-6-6 Auction

               

              I was watching it Jim.
               
              I thought I would bid if it stayed under $200, but it did not. Makes me darn pleased to see how well it did though. Had the discussion not happened when it did 1.5 years ago, I would probably would not have gotten mine.
               
              If in case you do not remember, I purchased my complete assembled (unpainted) Allegheny when it was sold with a complete
              Bowser Challenger. I paid ~$220 inc s/h for the pair. That was a bargain! I purchased mine within a day or so of you posting photos of yours and quite a lengthy discussion had taken place here. Had that not happened when it did, I would not have known what it was when I was looking at it and would probably not have bid on it. .... um  well, yes I still would have bid anyway.  
               
              Later!
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@losch. net>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 6:13:35 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Winton 2-6-6-6 Auction

               

               
               
                    If anyone is interested in  a nice rare assembled and working vintage HO piece that was just sold on eBay go to   # 260644076547    Big Vintage Brass HO 2-6-6-6 Allegheny Heavy Freight . This is by Winton.  In my opinion a bargain price.
               
                                                                                                     Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14779 From: Richard Kurz Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              I'm pretty sure it's an old Red Ball kit, back in the days of M. Dale Newton, looks pretty good.
               
              Rich

              --- On Mon, 8/9/10, 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 9, 2010, 9:23 AM

               
              Hi All!

              I have of course another interesting find. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this old wood & diecast car? It has wood sides, roof & super-structure with diecast ends and details, including frame sides. It has what looks to be what I think they call a fish-belly.

              http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/4875630278/

              If anyone has any ideas as to the make of this interesting and different car, please let me know. Still have not figured out how to attach images to these posts. Man! Jim has it figured out and I even coached him over the phone how to do things before...

              Thanks,
              Sean


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14780 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              I figured as much Jim,
               
              I knew yuo only were good for the locos. I tend to be the same, but when I find an odd ball like this one, i can not help but go after it. Surprised at how cheap I got it. Thought it would go higher.. It has been sitting on my shelf for a month or so. The seller was kind of a jetk and did a poor packing job. The other car that came with this one is pretty neat too, but is still sitting on my shelf waiting for repair.
               
              Sean
               

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 11:17:01 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Overland Oil & Transportation Co.

               

              Sean,
                 
                  Can't help to ID the car. You know not a freight car collector. I'm sure others will help.
               
                  As for sending pictures as attachments you were a great teacher. That and an electronic miracle. Having a digital camera that came with a program for the computer to load and send pictures as attachments a big help. Otherwise I couldn't do it.
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 9:23 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Overland Oil & Transportation Co.

               

              Hi All!

              I have of course another interesting find. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this old wood & diecast car? It has wood sides, roof & super-structure with diecast ends and details, including frame sides. It has what looks to be what I think they call a fish-belly.

              http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 9977705@N05/ 4875630278/

              If anyone has any ideas as to the make of this interesting and different car, please let me know. Still have not figured out how to attach images to these posts. Man! Jim has it figured out and I even coached him over the phone how to do things before...

              Thanks,
              Sean


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14781 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              I have to agree Rick.
               
              Prototype or not, it is still an atractive car. All the (low) metal on it makes it a very heavy and stable car.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 11:25:19 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Overland Oil & Transportation Co.

               

              On 8/9/2010 8:23 AM, 69_Mustang_Man wrote:
              > Hi All!
              >
              > I have of course another interesting find. Has anyone ever seen or
              > heard of this old wood& diecast car? It has wood sides, roof&
              > super-structure with diecast ends and details, including frame sides.
              > It has what looks to be what I think they call a fish-belly.

              Wow! I have never seen a fishbelly underframe - model or prototype -
              that was as exaggerated as that one.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14782 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              Hi Rich,
               
              I think it is too, but since redball went out of buisness long before I was even born, I (I think), I am not positive. The trucks look to be Mantua's Reading style with the thick axles. I might swap them for some Central valley or redball trucks. I can use the mantua trucks elsewere..
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Richard Kurz <beare518@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 11:52:36 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Overland Oil & Transportation Co.

               

              I'm pretty sure it's an old Red Ball kit, back in the days of M. Dale Newton, looks pretty good.
               
              Rich

              --- On Mon, 8/9/10, 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Monday, August 9, 2010, 9:23 AM

               
              Hi All!

              I have of course another interesting find. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this old wood & diecast car? It has wood sides, roof & super-structure with diecast ends and details, including frame sides. It has what looks to be what I think they call a fish-belly.

              http://www.flickr. com/photos/ 9977705@N05/ 4875630278/

              If anyone has any ideas as to the make of this interesting and different car, please let me know. Still have not figured out how to attach images to these posts. Man! Jim has it figured out and I even coached him over the phone how to do things before...

              Thanks,
              Sean



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14783 From: nvrr49 Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              I agree, it is a Red Ball kit. This was a combination car in that it hauled oil to the coast from the early oil fields and could haul goods back in the box.

              See this link for the instructions.

              http://www.hoseeker.org/redball/redballoverlandoil.jpg

              Kent in KC

              nvrr49.blogspot.com
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14784 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              Thanks Kent!
               
              I think we have a winner!
               
              It appears as if I am missing the "101"  (painted over on my car) and the door text: "Improved Combination Merchandise & Oil Car" 
               
              I like that door text. Any ideas on reproducing it?
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 2:58:13 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.

               

              I agree, it is a Red Ball kit. This was a combination car in that it hauled oil to the coast from the early oil fields and could haul goods back in the box.

              See this link for the instructions.

              http://www.hoseeker.org/redball/redballoverlandoil.jpg

              Kent in KC

              nvrr49.blogspot.com


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14785 From: MRLENGAL2U@aol.com Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
              The Lindsay Drive that you are talking about was produced specifically for use in the Globe kit. It uses the front section of the plastic Globe chassis, and the Globe sideframes. It has it's own electrical pickup unlike other Lindsay motors. Why it was designed that way, I don't know,,, but I once saw one that had been modified so there was a motor fore and aft, both ends screwed onto that central block.



              -----Original Message-----
              From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, Aug 8, 2010 7:42 pm
              Subject: [vintageHO] Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise

              Hey Gents:
              
              I've had the two metal chassis frame parts of a Lindsay F7 (Globe body) for a 
              few days. It would appear since I only have the rear and middle part (metal) of 
              the chassis that the forward part based on reading the instructions is plastic.
              
              I'm hoping one of you guys is a real Lindsay aficionado and can tell me a couple 
              of things:
              
              a) Why is the main weight bearing part of the chassis in two parts?
              
              b) Why "attach" a plastic fore piece (again a SEPARATE piece) why not extend the 
              "middle" piece forward to allow for the front dummy truck to attach to it?
              
              Anyone know, or have a S.W.A.G (sophisticated wild ass guess)!? Curious as to 
              why they designed it the way they did...???
              
              Regards,
              Gareth
              
              
              
              ------------------------------------
              
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              Group: vintageHO Message: 14786 From: VtHam Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS

              Hello to all,
              I've attached some photos of the two boxcab's that I made using
              Athearn's yard swither for the chassis. It was necessary to remove a short piece out of the middle section so it would fit the boxcab shell, so I cut out the fuel tank portion and reconnected the two halves with short pieces of brass stock and some 0-80 screws. I happened to have two Helix Humper motors on hand and they fit perfectly and run nice and quiet too. I used rubber tubing to join the motor to the Athearn gear towers. Weights are needed so I put two 1/4 oz. stick-on's under the fuel tank area and then put as many as would fit inside the shell. I had to add on the pilot "porches" due to the extended Athearn frame but it came out looking good to me, even though they are fantasy engines that the Boston & Maine never had.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rh@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi to
              all members,
              > I'm a newbee to this group so I'm not sure if this is
              appropriate here or not but I will describ it in hopes it meets moderator approval.
              >
              > For a long time I have been trying to come up with a
              better way of powering the old MDC Boxcabs. Any one that owns one knows how noisy and eratic they can be. I've tried re-gearing and more recently, a chain drive but none of these revisions were satisfactory. Then, just by dumb luck, I stumbled on a kit bash on eBay where someone had joined two boxcabs and some parts from a GE U-boat to make a NYC boxcab and then they placed this on an Athearn chassis. Well, this got my old brain to thinking about what I could do with a boxcab and an Athearn frame. Low and behold I came up with a one of a kind kitbashed boxcab that runs as nice as apple pie and to me, looks great.
              >
              > If anyone is interested and it gets moderator approval, I will
              be glad to post some photos and a brief description of how it was done. I am contemplating writing and article about it for RMC or MRR magazines so I don't want to give away the farm just yet but I can give some basics.
              > Richard
              in Vermont
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14787 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Overland Oil Car
              The Overland Oil car is a combination tank car/boxcar. The kit is Red Ball. It was made and sold by M. Dale Newton,then during the 1955-75 era by Howell Day and later as historic reruns by Wabash Valley/MRRW. The cast "fishbelly" is an underfloor tank for oil transport that predated "regular tank cars" in Pennsylvanisa based oil service. The boxcar was for use in back hauls and to insure the car would not become obsolete if oil was just a passing fad. The car always had printed "scribed" card sides, special cast ends and cast doors. The cast doors were decaled.

              This kit also served as the inspiration for a popular MofW car called "The Cook's Car" marketed during Howell Day and WVL/MRRW eras. This version had dieccast metal sides, same ends and tanks. The concept was that the underfloor water tank was quite handy for the crew cook's use. WVL/MRRW also sold this kit with track wiping pads as it was heavy and low enough to run as a track cleaner. I know of no MofW prototype application in this manner. I do not have the data at hand as to the original release date on the kit -- it was postwar based on knowledge of the person who produced the molds.

              Merle Rice
              Operator of Trd Ball 1975-2009
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14788 From: Chris B Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
              Gareth, as usual, HO Seeker can possibly shed a light...Attached are two HO Seeker pgs from Lindsay;
              I added an arrow to highlight the notation on pg 2 that would seem to identify that plastic piece as a Globe part of the original shell.
              Chris B.


              From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 7:42:44 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise

               

              Hey Gents:

              I've had the two metal chassis frame parts of a Lindsay F7 (Globe body) for a few days. It would appear since I only have the rear and middle part (metal) of the chassis that the forward part based on reading the instructions is plastic.

              I'm hoping one of you guys is a real Lindsay aficionado and can tell me a couple of things:

              a) Why is the main weight bearing part of the chassis in two parts?

              b) Why "attach" a plastic fore piece (again a SEPARATE piece) why not extend the "middle" piece forward to allow for the front dummy truck to attach to it?

              Anyone know, or have a S.W.A.G (sophisticated wild ass guess)!? Curious as to why they designed it the way they did...???

              Regards,
              Gareth


                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14789 From: Chris B Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
              Gareth, I also just noticed the left side of pg 2 actually refers to the plastic parts marked A, furnished as part of the Globe kit, including the vertical panel with cab detail, the plastic front of the frame section, and what to me looks like the front truck and side frames.

              Others may have examples on their shelves to confirm whether or not the Globe front truck sideframes were used in the Lindsay conversion.

              Chris B.


              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 8:37:15 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise

              Gareth, as usual, HO Seeker can possibly shed a light...Attached are two HO Seeker pgs from Lindsay;
              I added an arrow to highlight the notation on pg 2 that would seem to identify that plastic piece as a Globe part of the original shell.
              Chris B.


              From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 7:42:44 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise

               

              Hey Gents:

              I've had the two metal chassis frame parts of a Lindsay F7 (Globe body) for a few days. It would appear since I only have the rear and middle part (metal) of the chassis that the forward part based on reading the instructions is plastic.

              I'm hoping one of you guys is a real Lindsay aficionado and can tell me a couple of things:

              a) Why is the main weight bearing part of the chassis in two parts?

              b) Why "attach" a plastic fore piece (again a SEPARATE piece) why not extend the "middle" piece forward to allow for the front dummy truck to attach to it?

              Anyone know, or have a S.W.A.G (sophisticated wild ass guess)!? Curious as to why they designed it the way they did...???

              Regards,
              Gareth



                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14790 From: Roger Aultman Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
              Neat job how did you make the end platforms?   Roger Aultman
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: VtHam
              Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 3:26 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]

               


              Hello to all,
              I've attached some photos of the two boxcab's that I made using
              Athearn's yard swither for the chassis. It was necessary to remove a short piece out of the middle section so it would fit the boxcab shell, so I cut out the fuel tank portion and reconnected the two halves with short pieces of brass stock and some 0-80 screws. I happened to have two Helix Humper motors on hand and they fit perfectly and run nice and quiet too. I used rubber tubing to join the motor to the Athearn gear towers. Weights are needed so I put two 1/4 oz. stick-on's under the fuel tank area and then put as many as would fit inside the shell. I had to add on the pilot "porches" due to the extended Athearn frame but it came out looking good to me, even though they are fantasy engines that the Boston & Maine never had.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com, "Richard" <rh@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi to all members,
              > I'm a newbee to this group so I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or not but I will describ it in hopes it meets moderator approval.
              >
              > For a long time I have been trying to come up with a better way of powering the old MDC Boxcabs. Any one that owns one knows how noisy and eratic they can be. I've tried re-gearing and more recently, a chain drive but none of these revisions were satisfactory. Then, just by dumb luck, I stumbled on a kit bash on eBay where someone had joined two boxcabs and some parts from a GE U-boat to make a NYC boxcab and then they placed this on an Athearn chassis. Well, this got my old brain to thinking about what I could do with a boxcab and an Athearn frame. Low and behold I came up with a one of a kind kitbashed boxcab that runs as nice as apple pie and to me, looks great.
              >
              > If anyone is interested and it gets moderator approval, I will be glad to post some photos and a brief description of how it was done. I am contemplating writing and article about it for RMC or MRR magazines so I don't want to give away the farm just yet but I can give some basics.
              > Richard in Vermont

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14791 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
              I love them Rich!

              They really look great!

              Sean

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Aug 9, 2010, at 4:26 PM, "VtHam" <rh@...> wrote:

               


              Hello to all,
              I've attached some photos of the two boxcab's that I made using
              Athearn's yard swither for the chassis. It was necessary to remove a short piece out of the middle section so it would fit the boxcab shell, so I cut out the fuel tank portion and reconnected the two halves with short pieces of brass stock and some 0-80 screws. I happened to have two Helix Humper motors on hand and they fit perfectly and run nice and quiet too. I used rubber tubing to join the motor to the Athearn gear towers. Weights are needed so I put two 1/4 oz. stick-on's under the fuel tank area and then put as many as would fit inside the shell. I had to add on the pilot "porches" due to the extended Athearn frame but it came out looking good to me, even though they are fantasy engines that the Boston & Maine never had.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rh@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi to all members,
              > I'm a newbee to this group so I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or not but I will describ it in hopes it meets moderator approval.
              >
              > For a long time I have been trying to come up with a better way of powering the old MDC Boxcabs. Any one that owns one knows how noisy and eratic they can be. I've tried re-gearing and more recently, a chain drive but none of these revisions were satisfactory. Then, just by dumb luck, I stumbled on a kit bash on eBay where someone had joined two boxcabs and some parts from a GE U-boat to make a NYC boxcab and then they placed this on an Athearn chassis. Well, this got my old brain to thinking about what I could do with a boxcab and an Athearn frame. Low and behold I came up with a one of a kind kitbashed boxcab that runs as nice as apple pie and to me, looks great.
              >
              > If anyone is interested and it gets moderator approval, I will be glad to post some photos and a brief description of how it was done. I am contemplating writing and article about it for RMC or MRR magazines so I don't want to give away the farm just yet but I can give some basics.
              > Richard in Vermont


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14792 From: tomvanhoy Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Hobbyline tanker repair help
              Hi,
              Have recently acquired a 2500 Hobbyline tank engine from ~ 1957 to replace my first set from Xmas 1957. In decent shape overall, but the gear on the drive axle is missing a tooth and the nylon(?) one above it is probably worn enough to replace too. So my question: how/where do I go to get replacements?
              Any help appreciated.
              Thanks,
              Tom Van Hoy
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14793 From: rcjge Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Lindsay F7-Globe Chassis design premise
              hey Guys:

              I have an original set of the instructions. It just seems a very odd way of doing the chassis. I very often find myself looking at something and saying: why the heck did they design it that way? It's clearly meant to be a modular design which intrigues me, but why not have the "tongue" of the leading edge of the middle part serve as the attachment for the front truck???

              -Gareth


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > I've had the two metal chassis frame parts of a Lindsay F7 (Globe body) for a few days. It would appear since I only have the rear and middle part (metal) of the chassis that the forward part based on reading the instructions is plastic.
              >
              > I'm hoping one of you guys is a real Lindsay aficionado and can tell me a couple of things:
              >
              > a) Why is the main weight bearing part of the chassis in two parts?
              >
              > b) Why "attach" a plastic fore piece (again a SEPARATE piece) why not extend the "middle" piece forward to allow for the front dummy truck to attach to it?
              >
              > Anyone know, or have a S.W.A.G (sophisticated wild ass guess)!? Curious as to why they designed it the way they did...???
              >
              > Regards,
              > Gareth
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14794 From: toytrain13 Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Red Ball Borden's Milk Tank Car kit
              Has anyone in the group built this kit, #78? The problem is that after the paper wrapper is glued into position, then the cast sideframes attached, you will find that the lower portion of (the printed) side doors on the wrapper are covered by the sideframes. I've considered leaving the wrapper off, and just painting and decalling the wood tank, but I feel that this would compromise the originality of the kit. Suggestions?? -Richard White
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14795 From: jim heckard Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Globe / Lindsay L-1180 drive
              Chris B, Gareth,  All,
               
                  This thread about the Lindsay L-1180 drive for use in the Globe plastic F-7 has added to my knowledge and also made me remember something that might help.
               
                  If you go to Lindsay in hoseeker at the bottom of the list is the Lindsay L-1300 Headlight Kit paperwork that I had sent to the site. I never realized that it was for this Globe / Lindsay F-7 set up till now. This little additional information might be helpful.
               
                                                                     Jim H
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14796 From: Marlene Mahoney Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: no more member? how did that happen
              I'm sure I'm a member of this group. but it's not listed...can someone tell me what or who removed me from the group?




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14797 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/9/2010
              Subject: Re: no more member? how did that happen
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Marlene Mahoney" <bigmama856@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 5:25 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] no more member? how did that happen


              > I'm sure I'm a member of this group. but it's not listed...can someone
              > tell me
              > what or who removed me from the group?

              You're still a member, otherwise this message would not have gotten through.

              To all members:

              Just the last day or so Yahoo was having some issues, and full access to
              some groups was not available.
              Everything appears OK now, but this does happen on occasion.

              As far as this specific email, again, had Marlene not been a member I'd
              have never even seen her message. If you have a question or problem with
              your membership you should always email me directly.
              don.dellmann@... or VintageHO-owner@yahoogroups.com

              You can use the latter address to contact the owner of any yahoo list, just
              substitute the group name for "VintageHO".

              Members are not arbitrarily deleted from the group. The reasons a person
              may be deleted without warning are:

              An obvious spammer
              An email address that is listed in the "bouncing members" as invalid or no
              longer current
              A "bouncing" member for a long period of time (usually 60 days or more of
              continuous bounces and no response to numerous reactivation requests)
              ANYONE who joins "Grouply"

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14798 From: Mike Sloane Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
              Excellent job, Richard. I am envious of your skill!

              Mike

              On 8/9/2010 4:26 PM, VtHam wrote:
              >
              > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from VtHam included below]
              >
              >
              > Hello to all,
              > I've attached some photos of the two boxcab's that I made using
              > Athearn's yard swither for the chassis. It was necessary to remove a
              > short piece out of the middle section so it would fit the boxcab shell,
              > so I cut out the fuel tank portion and reconnected the two halves with
              > short pieces of brass stock and some 0-80 screws. I happened to have two
              > Helix Humper motors on hand and they fit perfectly and run nice and
              > quiet too. I used rubber tubing to join the motor to the Athearn gear
              > towers. Weights are needed so I put two 1/4 oz. stick-on's under the
              > fuel tank area and then put as many as would fit inside the shell. I had
              > to add on the pilot "porches" due to the extended Athearn frame but it
              > came out looking good to me, even though they are fantasy engines that
              > the Boston & Maine never had.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14799 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Overland Oil Car
              Thanks so much Merle! I added your comment as a comment on my photo and I credited you with just your initials. If this is ok let me know please. I be happy to add or subtract any credit info as you so chose. 

              Thanks everyone for the fantastic info on my interesting $10.5 purchase. Well worth every interesting dime.  

              Sean

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Aug 9, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:

               


              The Overland Oil car is a combination tank car/boxcar. The kit is Red Ball. It was made and sold by M. Dale Newton,then during the 1955-75 era by Howell Day and later as historic reruns by Wabash Valley/MRRW. The cast "fishbelly" is an underfloor tank for oil transport that predated "regular tank cars" in Pennsylvanisa based oil service. The boxcar was for use in back hauls and to insure the car would not become obsolete if oil was just a passing fad. The car always had printed "scribed" card sides, special cast ends and cast doors. The cast doors were decaled.

              This kit also served as the inspiration for a popular MofW car called "The Cook's Car" marketed during Howell Day and WVL/MRRW eras. This version had dieccast metal sides, same ends and tanks. The concept was that the underfloor water tank was quite handy for the crew cook's use. WVL/MRRW also sold this kit with track wiping pads as it was heavy and low enough to run as a track cleaner. I know of no MofW prototype application in this manner. I do not have the data at hand as to the original release date on the kit -- it was postwar based on knowledge of the person who produced the molds.

              Merle Rice
              Operator of Trd Ball 1975-2009


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14800 From: Richard Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
              Hello Roger,
              Thanks to you and the others for the compliments. The end platforms are made out of Evergreen sheet styrene #4050 V-Groove with .050" spacing (.040" thick).
              Richard

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Aultman" <raul@...> wrote:
              >
              > Neat job how did you make the end platforms? Roger Aultman
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: VtHam
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 3:26 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
              >
              >
              >
              > [Attachment(s) from VtHam included below]
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello to all,
              > I've attached some photos of the two boxcab's that I made using
              > Athearn's yard swither for the chassis. It was necessary to remove a short piece out of the middle section so it would fit the boxcab shell, so I cut out the fuel tank portion and reconnected the two halves with short pieces of brass stock and some 0-80 screws. I happened to have two Helix Humper motors on hand and they fit perfectly and run nice and quiet too. I used rubber tubing to join the motor to the Athearn gear towers. Weights are needed so I put two 1/4 oz. stick-on's under the fuel tank area and then put as many as would fit inside the shell. I had to add on the pilot "porches" due to the extended Athearn frame but it came out looking good to me, even though they are fantasy engines that the Boston & Maine never had.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rh@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi to all members,
              > > I'm a newbee to this group so I'm not sure if this is appropriate here or not but I will describ it in hopes it meets moderator approval.
              > >
              > > For a long time I have been trying to come up with a better way of powering the old MDC Boxcabs. Any one that owns one knows how noisy and eratic they can be. I've tried re-gearing and more recently, a chain drive but none of these revisions were satisfactory. Then, just by dumb luck, I stumbled on a kit bash on eBay where someone had joined two boxcabs and some parts from a GE U-boat to make a NYC boxcab and then they placed this on an Athearn chassis. Well, this got my old brain to thinking about what I could do with a boxcab and an Athearn frame. Low and behold I came up with a one of a kind kitbashed boxcab that runs as nice as apple pie and to me, looks great.
              > >
              > > If anyone is interested and it gets moderator approval, I will be glad to post some photos and a brief description of how it was done. I am contemplating writing and article about it for RMC or MRR magazines so I don't want to give away the farm just yet but I can give some basics.
              > > Richard in Vermont
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14801 From: jim heckard Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: The beast is back
               
               

               
                    Thanks to a few parts from Dan Bush / Yardbird Trains I am now able to go forward.
              .
                  The pictures will  show you I have decided to put the head light on the pivoting pilot. I had too grind the entire light and boiler front off as I could not take just the light off without destroying detail ( hinges & bolt heads.). I had a perfect fitting plastic boiler front I put on and with the new metal pilot started to detail a little. I now have a Devore working coupler on the tender and will be putting one on the front. I intend to extend the walk way or create an extra step out over the steps of the pivoting pilot. There will also be handrails added for just the steps as you can't extend the normal Mantua handrails down to a moving pilot.
               
                  I stilll want to add another boiler band in the filled area but having trouble creating one. Also thinking that second dome. I'm not thinking of actual lighting yet  Maybe only jewels but as I go along things can change. A lot of piping detail up in the air as I'm not  up on real steam engines. One saving grace is since this engine is one of a kind  just what is needed is not written in stone.
               
               
                                                                          Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14802 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Re: The beast is back [2 Attachments]
              Jim,
               
              That has blossomed into a really great looking engine.
               
              Sean

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 4:10:01 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] The beast is back [2 Attachments]

               

               
               

               
                    Thanks to a few parts from Dan Bush / Yardbird Trains I am now able to go forward.
              .
                  The pictures will  show you I have decided to put the head light on the pivoting pilot. I had too grind the entire light and boiler front off as I could not take just the light off without destroying detail ( hinges & bolt heads.). I had a perfect fitting plastic boiler front I put on and with the new metal pilot started to detail a little. I now have a Devore working coupler on the tender and will be putting one on the front. I intend to extend the walk way or create an extra step out over the steps of the pivoting pilot. There will also be handrails added for just the steps as you can't extend the normal Mantua handrails down to a moving pilot.
               
                  I stilll want to add another boiler band in the filled area but having trouble creating one. Also thinking that second dome. I'm not thinking of actual lighting yet  Maybe only jewels but as I go along things can change. A lot of piping detail up in the air as I'm not  up on real steam engines. One saving grace is since this engine is one of a kind  just what is needed is not written in stone.
               
               
                                                                          Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14803 From: John H Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Re: The beast is back
              Wow, what a difference. It's starting to look like a real locomotive. Avery interesting one at that.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Thanks to a few parts from Dan Bush / Yardbird Trains I am now able to go forward.
              >
              > .
              > The pictures will show you I have decided to put the head light on the pivoting pilot. I had too grind the entire light and boiler front off as I could not take just the light off without destroying detail ( hinges & bolt heads.). I had a perfect fitting plastic boiler front I put on and with the new metal pilot started to detail a little. I now have a Devore working coupler on the tender and will be putting one on the front. I intend to extend the walk way or create an extra step out over the steps of the pivoting pilot. There will also be handrails added for just the steps as you can't extend the normal Mantua handrails down to a moving pilot.
              >
              > I stilll want to add another boiler band in the filled area but having trouble creating one. Also thinking that second dome. I'm not thinking of actual lighting yet Maybe only jewels but as I go along things can change. A lot of piping detail up in the air as I'm not up on real steam engines. One saving grace is since this engine is one of a kind just what is needed is not written in stone.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14804 From: Nelson B Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Re: MDC BOXCAB WITH ATHEARN CHASSIS [8 Attachments]
              Rich, Even if they're fantasy engines, they're beautifully done and look very credible. Great work!

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              >
              > Excellent job, Richard. I am envious of your skill!
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 8/9/2010 4:26 PM, VtHam wrote:
              > >
              > > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from VtHam included below]
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello to all,
              > > I've attached some photos of the two boxcab's that I made using
              > > Athearn's yard swither for the chassis. It was necessary to remove a
              > > short piece out of the middle section so it would fit the boxcab shell,
              > > so I cut out the fuel tank portion and reconnected the two halves with
              > > short pieces of brass stock and some 0-80 screws. I happened to have two
              > > Helix Humper motors on hand and they fit perfectly and run nice and
              > > quiet too. I used rubber tubing to join the motor to the Athearn gear
              > > towers. Weights are needed so I put two 1/4 oz. stick-on's under the
              > > fuel tank area and then put as many as would fit inside the shell. I had
              > > to add on the pilot "porches" due to the extended Athearn frame but it
              > > came out looking good to me, even though they are fantasy engines that
              > > the Boston & Maine never had.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14805 From: nvrr49 Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Overland Oil & Transportation Co.
              Sean, since the instructions are not in color, what color would the decals need to be? If white, you will need to find someone with an ALPS printer. If it is black or some other color, you may be able to print it on your printer. Easier said than done, but with some trial and error, it can be done.

              Kent in KC

              nvrr49.blogspot.com


              >
              > It appears as if I am missing the "101"  (painted over on my car) and the door
              > text: "Improved Combination Merchandise & Oil Car" 
              >
              > I like that door text. Any ideas on reproducing it?
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14806 From: nvrr49 Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball Borden's Milk Tank Car kit
              Is this the orange wrappered one? If so, I think I have one, and I will give it a look this weekend

              Kent in KC

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "toytrain13" <toytrain13@...> wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone in the group built this kit, #78? The problem is that after the paper wrapper is glued into position, then the cast sideframes attached, you will find that the lower portion of (the printed) side doors on the wrapper are covered by the sideframes. I've considered leaving the wrapper off, and just painting and decalling the wood tank, but I feel that this would compromise the originality of the kit. Suggestions?? -Richard White
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14807 From: rcjge Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Globe F-7
              Hey Fella's:

              Can anyone tell me what the quality of the Globe F-7 shell was like in terms of the detail etc. Also, was it zamac or some other alloy?

              Thanks,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14808 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Globe F-7
              it set a new standard for detail--and was in styrene. gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:31 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Globe F-7


              > Hey Fella's:
              >
              > Can anyone tell me what the quality of the Globe F-7 shell was like in
              > terms of the detail etc. Also, was it zamac or some other alloy?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14809 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 8/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Globe F-7
              "Quality" can be pretty subjective in this context.
               
              However, I think the quality was state of the art at the time.  These shells became the Athearn F-7 of which about a bejillion have been made.
               
              They are plastic.  They were sold as dummies.  Some of the usual suspects at the time sold powered underframes that could be used.
               
              They are certainly not to the level of todays offererings, but I think they set the bar very high at the time.  Other plastic ones came out and I remember a Revell one I had in the 60's.  I don't think it was as good.
               
              It was a long time until somebody raised it further.  I think that was the "Highliners" product?
               
              A detailed HO F7 "geneology" listing with dates would be interesting.  Anyone know of one?  The F7 has to be the most produced engine in HO, right?  And perhaps the Athearn F7 in particular is king of the hill in terms of units sold?
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:31 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Globe F-7

               

              Hey Fella's:

              Can anyone tell me what the quality of the Globe F-7 shell was like in terms of the detail etc. Also, was it zamac or some other alloy?

              Thanks,
              Gareth

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14810 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Globe F-7
              Hi Chuck,
               
              I believe that most of the plastic F units from the time of the Globe F7 were done by all manufacturers, such as Revell and Mantua/Tyco, using the same, (wrong) plans that were originally provided to Globe/aka. Athearn,  by EMD, with the squared windshield, and wrong profile along the roofline, and other such mistakes, but at the time, it was state of the art, when I started seeing the ads for the Highliners shells, I was so looking forward to them, then they never came out, and never came out, they finally released the B unit shell back in the late 80's, but again, they took their sweet time with the A unit, also about that time Stewart brought out that lovely F3, I remember being one of the many who wanted to get a few of those A unit shells too, guess what? Stewart wouldn't sell the shell's to the F3 separately, while Stewart made an excellent mechanism, as well as an excellent shell, in those days, it was sad to see that they were also pricing this stuff out of the reach of folks like me, kind of like they do today of course, but I still have many old Athearn F units, detailed, painted, and they still do the job intended, the only other plastic F units, which were originally done in diecast metal were the F3's from Varney, not as nicely done as the old Globe shells, but adequate for the time.
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 11:40:07 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Globe F-7

               

              "Quality" can be pretty subjective in this context.
               
              However, I think the quality was state of the art at the time.  These shells became the Athearn F-7 of which about a bejillion have been made.
               
              They are plastic.  They were sold as dummies.  Some of the usual suspects at the time sold powered underframes that could be used.
               
              They are certainly not to the level of todays offererings, but I think they set the bar very high at the time.  Other plastic ones came out and I remember a Revell one I had in the 60's.  I don't think it was as good.
               
              It was a long time until somebody raised it further.  I think that was the "Highliners" product?
               
              A detailed HO F7 "geneology" listing with dates would be interesting.  Anyone know of one?  The F7 has to be the most produced engine in HO, right?  And perhaps the Athearn F7 in particular is king of the hill in terms of units sold?
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:31 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Globe F-7

               

              Hey Fella's:

              Can anyone tell me what the quality of the Globe F-7 shell was like in terms of the detail etc. Also, was it zamac or some other alloy?

              Thanks,
              Gareth


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14811 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: F7 Model History
              Globe was started by a Carl Traub of Milwaukee.  He made the dies in his basement.  Carl was in our live steam model club, as he was also a live steamer.  I used to borrow taps, etc., from Carl, when I was starting out in live steam.  Carl sold Globe to Athearn, who produced the exact Globe dummy F7 in gold paint and an Athearn box.  There was a removable cab rear wall, that slid into tabs, to hold it in place.  If I remember correctly, it even had the two rear cab doors on the wall.
               
              The number boards were separate pieces that fit onto two "pimples" on each side, for location.  The horns were in three pieces each and had to be glued together.  The Athearn "Globe" cost $0.98, in 1960.
               
              Athearn eventually went away from the separate number boards and three piece horn, but at the expense of accuracy.  By using a separate number board, the ends of the number board were straight, as on a real F7.  Athearn changed these angles to a taper to make removal from the die possible.  Also, Carl's horn was the correct size of the prototype horn.  Athearn's was grossly oversize, for a WABCO horn.   Thus, from that time on, HO F7's had the wrong contour on the number boards and oversized horns.  But we didn't know any better.  Eventually, some aftermarket detail guy made replacement number boards and horns, for the purest.  Most modelers didn't know the difference anyway.
               
              The next to use this body was Penn Line.  I suspect that PL had an agreement with Athearn for Irv to produce the bodies for PL, as they were exactly the same, and in exactly the same road names and colors.  Nicer running than Athearn, but at a much higher cost.  They used a gear drive, with a spring transmitting power and a Pittman motor.  I could never afford one, at that time.
               
              Revell came next, in the very early 1960s, with their own F7 body.  They went back to the separate number boards to keep the proper angles and a smaller, one piece horn.  You can tell Revell started from scratch, as the body has a different nose contour.  Revell also used heavy cast-on grab irons, which spoiled the looks.  Incidentally, Revell engines ran like crap.
               
              About the same time, Mantua came out with their F7.  A direct copy of the Athearn "improved" body, but with the smaller horns, that I now know look more realistic.  So by then we all thought that number boards actually had that contour.  The Mantua engine ran the best of all, with that bulletproof, self contained power truck that could be doubled by making the other truck powered also.  Later that truck was cheapened and never ran as nice.
               
              Now the funny part.  I would say this was in the  late 1960's.  Japanese company, Rosko,  made an exact reproduction of the Globe F7 body, and sold their locomotive in the US, in the toy market.  However, they must not have had the number boards in their Globe sample, as they left them off.  So their loco has four "pimples" where the number board should be.  I have all these locos in my collection, to compare.
               
              F7 life remained like this until Highliners came out in the late 1970's, I believe.  There were some brass F-units, but we won't discuss them, and Varney made an F3, but that is not an F7!
               
              Brad Smith
              Franklin, WI
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14812 From: jim heckard Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
                 Brad,
               
               
                        I would like to make an addition to your great text. While Penn Line at first used the Athearn F-7 body they later  ( I have to check when the switch took place ) had there own F-7 bodies made. One of the big differences was in the steps that were shorter then Athearn. When Penn Line sold out at auction Sol Kramer,  who had bought out Gordon Varney by this time, purchased the Penn Line design.  He then replaced the standard Varney F-3 with  the PL body that became the F-7 body sold under the Varney name and later the Life Like name.
               
                                                                   Jim H
               
                                                                  
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] F7 Model History

               

              Globe was started by a Carl Traub of Milwaukee.  He made the dies in his basement.  Carl was in our live steam model club, as he was also a live steamer.  I used to borrow taps, etc., from Carl, when I was starting out in live steam.  Carl sold Globe to Athearn, who produced the exact Globe dummy F7 in gold paint and an Athearn box.  There was a removable cab rear wall, that slid into tabs, to hold it in place.  If I remember correctly, it even had the two rear cab doors on the wall.
               
              The number boards were separate pieces that fit onto two "pimples" on each side, for location.  The horns were in three pieces each and had to be glued together.  The Athearn "Globe" cost $0.98, in 1960.
               
              Athearn eventually went away from the separate number boards and three piece horn, but at the expense of accuracy.  By using a separate number board, the ends of the number board were straight, as on a real F7.  Athearn changed these angles to a taper to make removal from the die possible.  Also, Carl's horn was the correct size of the prototype horn.  Athearn's was grossly oversize, for a WABCO horn.   Thus, from that time on, HO F7's had the wrong contour on the number boards and oversized horns.  But we didn't know any better.  Eventually, some aftermarket detail guy made replacement number boards and horns, for the purest.  Most modelers didn't know the difference anyway.
               
              The next to use this body was Penn Line.  I suspect that PL had an agreement with Athearn for Irv to produce the bodies for PL, as they were exactly the same, and in exactly the same road names and colors.  Nicer running than Athearn, but at a much higher cost.  They used a gear drive, with a spring transmitting power and a Pittman motor.  I could never afford one, at that time.
               
              Revell came next, in the very early 1960s, with their own F7 body.  They went back to the separate number boards to keep the proper angles and a smaller, one piece horn.  You can tell Revell started from scratch, as the body has a different nose contour.  Revell also used heavy cast-on grab irons, which spoiled the looks.  Incidentally, Revell engines ran like crap.
               
              About the same time, Mantua came out with their F7.  A direct copy of the Athearn "improved" body, but with the smaller horns, that I now know look more realistic.  So by then we all thought that number boards actually had that contour.  The Mantua engine ran the best of all, with that bulletproof, self contained power truck that could be doubled by making the other truck powered also.  Later that truck was cheapened and never ran as nice.
               
              Now the funny part.  I would say this was in the  late 1960's.  Japanese company, Rosko,  made an exact reproduction of the Globe F7 body, and sold their locomotive in the US, in the toy market.  However, they must not have had the number boards in their Globe sample, as they left them off.  So their loco has four "pimples" where the number board should be.  I have all these locos in my collection, to compare.
               
              F7 life remained like this until Highliners came out in the late 1970's, I believe.  There were some brass F-units, but we won't discuss them, and Varney made an F3, but that is not an F7!
               
              Brad Smith
              Franklin, WI

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14813 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              I picked up a couple interesting Globe items recently that I didn't know existed.  The usual gold and silver painted kit boxes are labeled "GOLD A98", "GOLD B89", "SILVER A98", SILVER B89".  I also have some labeld "GOLD KIT A98" and "GOLD KIT B89".
               
              But recently I got "A DISPLAY" and "B DISPLAY".  These are assembled engines in display cases that, yes, fit in the standard size box.  These are pre-assembled and on little display tracks look like Tru-Scale roadbed trimmed to a width that would fit in the box thickness, stained like walnut, rails are steel pr nickel silver, and some sort of acetate folded in the shape of a rectangular cover stapled at the bottom to the roadbed base to result in the little "display case".  The dummy engine is held down with a single screw up through the middle of the base into the engine floor.  The entire engine is painted silver including horns and number boards.
               
              Perhaps it was Carl Traub himself who thought the models were nice enough to just stand on their own as display pieces.  And, especially at the time, I think that would be the case.
               
              Carl Traub must have been quite the craftsman.  Like Nelson Gray's efforts in live steam and, of all things, Z scale.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] F7 Model History

               

              Globe was started by a Carl Traub of Milwaukee.  He made the dies in his basement.  Carl was in our live steam model club, as he was also a live steamer.  I used to borrow taps, etc., from Carl, when I was starting out in live steam.  Carl sold Globe to Athearn, who produced the exact Globe dummy F7 in gold paint and an Athearn box.  There was a removable cab rear wall, that slid into tabs, to hold it in place.  If I remember correctly, it even had the two rear cab doors on the wall.
               
              The number boards were separate pieces that fit onto two "pimples" on each side, for location.  The horns were in three pieces each and had to be glued together.  The Athearn "Globe" cost $0.98, in 1960.
               
              Athearn eventually went away from the separate number boards and three piece horn, but at the expense of accuracy.  By using a separate number board, the ends of the number board were straight, as on a real F7.  Athearn changed these angles to a taper to make removal from the die possible.  Also, Carl's horn was the correct size of the prototype horn.  Athearn's was grossly oversize, for a WABCO horn.   Thus, from that time on, HO F7's had the wrong contour on the number boards and oversized horns.  But we didn't know any better.  Eventually, some aftermarket detail guy made replacement number boards and horns, for the purest.  Most modelers didn't know the difference anyway.
               
              The next to use this body was Penn Line.  I suspect that PL had an agreement with Athearn for Irv to produce the bodies for PL, as they were exactly the same, and in exactly the same road names and colors.  Nicer running than Athearn, but at a much higher cost.  They used a gear drive, with a spring transmitting power and a Pittman motor.  I could never afford one, at that time.
               
              Revell came next, in the very early 1960s, with their own F7 body.  They went back to the separate number boards to keep the proper angles and a smaller, one piece horn.  You can tell Revell started from scratch, as the body has a different nose contour.  Revell also used heavy cast-on grab irons, which spoiled the looks.  Incidentally, Revell engines ran like crap.
               
              About the same time, Mantua came out with their F7.  A direct copy of the Athearn "improved" body, but with the smaller horns, that I now know look more realistic.  So by then we all thought that number boards actually had that contour.  The Mantua engine ran the best of all, with that bulletproof, self contained power truck that could be doubled by making the other truck powered also.  Later that truck was cheapened and never ran as nice.
               
              Now the funny part.  I would say this was in the  late 1960's.  Japanese company, Rosko,  made an exact reproduction of the Globe F7 body, and sold their locomotive in the US, in the toy market.  However, they must not have had the number boards in their Globe sample, as they left them off.  So their loco has four "pimples" where the number board should be.  I have all these locos in my collection, to compare.
               
              F7 life remained like this until Highliners came out in the late 1970's, I believe.  There were some brass F-units, but we won't discuss them, and Varney made an F3, but that is not an F7!
               
              Brad Smith
              Franklin, WI

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14814 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              besides the gold and silver painted units they came in UP--but the builder had to paint the gray and the red stripes.  gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:41 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] F7 Model History

              I picked up a couple interesting Globe items recently that I didn't know existed.  The usual gold and silver painted kit boxes are labeled "GOLD A98", "GOLD B89", "SILVER A98", SILVER B89".  I also have some labeld "GOLD KIT A98" and "GOLD KIT B89".
               
              But recently I got "A DISPLAY" and "B DISPLAY".  These are assembled engines in display cases that, yes, fit in the standard size box.  These are pre-assembled and on little display tracks look like Tru-Scale roadbed trimmed to a width that would fit in the box thickness, stained like walnut, rails are steel pr nickel silver, and some sort of acetate folded in the shape of a rectangular cover stapled at the bottom to the roadbed base to result in the little "display case".  The dummy engine is held down with a single screw up through the middle of the base into the engine floor.  The entire engine is painted silver including horns and number boards.
               
              Perhaps it was Carl Traub himself who thought the models were nice enough to just stand on their own as display pieces.  And, especially at the time, I think that would be the case.
               
              Carl Traub must have been quite the craftsman.  Like Nelson Gray's efforts in live steam and, of all things, Z scale.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] F7 Model History

               

              Globe was started by a Carl Traub of Milwaukee.  He made the dies in his basement.  Carl was in our live steam model club, as he was also a live steamer.  I used to borrow taps, etc., from Carl, when I was starting out in live steam.  Carl sold Globe to Athearn, who produced the exact Globe dummy F7 in gold paint and an Athearn box.  There was a removable cab rear wall, that slid into tabs, to hold it in place.  If I remember correctly, it even had the two rear cab doors on the wall.
               
              The number boards were separate pieces that fit onto two "pimples" on each side, for location.  The horns were in three pieces each and had to be glued together.  The Athearn "Globe" cost $0.98, in 1960.
               
              Athearn eventually went away from the separate number boards and three piece horn, but at the expense of accuracy.  By using a separate number board, the ends of the number board were straight, as on a real F7.  Athearn changed these angles to a taper to make removal from the die possible.  Also, Carl's horn was the correct size of the prototype horn.  Athearn's was grossly oversize, for a WABCO horn.   Thus, from that time on, HO F7's had the wrong contour on the number boards and oversized horns.  But we didn't know any better.  Eventually, some aftermarket detail guy made replacement number boards and horns, for the purest.  Most modelers didn't know the difference anyway.
               
              The next to use this body was Penn Line.  I suspect that PL had an agreement with Athearn for Irv to produce the bodies for PL, as they were exactly the same, and in exactly the same road names and colors.  Nicer running than Athearn, but at a much higher cost.  They used a gear drive, with a spring transmitting power and a Pittman motor.  I could never afford one, at that time.
               
              Revell came next, in the very early 1960s, with their own F7 body.  They went back to the separate number boards to keep the proper angles and a smaller, one piece horn.  You can tell Revell started from scratch, as the body has a different nose contour.  Revell also used heavy cast-on grab irons, which spoiled the looks.  Incidentally, Revell engines ran like crap.
               
              About the same time, Mantua came out with their F7.  A direct copy of the Athearn "improved" body, but with the smaller horns, that I now know look more realistic.  So by then we all thought that number boards actually had that contour.  The Mantua engine ran the best of all, with that bulletproof, self contained power truck that could be doubled by making the other truck powered also.  Later that truck was cheapened and never ran as nice.
               
              Now the funny part.  I would say this was in the  late 1960's.  Japanese company, Rosko,  made an exact reproduction of the Globe F7 body, and sold their locomotive in the US, in the toy market.  However, they must not have had the number boards in their Globe sample, as they left them off.  So their loco has four "pimples" where the number board should be.  I have all these locos in my collection, to compare.
               
              F7 life remained like this until Highliners came out in the late 1970's, I believe.  There were some brass F-units, but we won't discuss them, and Varney made an F3, but that is not an F7!
               
              Brad Smith
              Franklin, WI

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14815 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              Globe also came in at least Santa Fe, also.  But the instruction sheets seemed to always be showing Union Pacific at some point no matter which F7 was in the box.
               
              Here are some Globe comments to add to what Brad Smith posted.  These comments are from a trains.com forum http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/147078/1637160.aspx
               
              Especially note where it says "The review in the October 1954 MR says "just about the most beautiful plastic castings we have ever seen.  Detail is lavish, precise and incredibly neat."
               
              (I really don't know if it's OK to copy and paste such things.  But here it is...)
               

              ******************************

              Globe Models began as a Milwaukee WI manufacturer and was later sold to Athearn,  I believe the line was designed by the late Carl Traub, one of the most skilled scratchbuilders you'd ever want to encounter.  He built, if I remember right, the tender for the B&O 2-8-2 that the late Gordon Odegaard scratchbuilt for a series of MR articles some 25 or 30 years ago, and had his own article series on scratchbuilding an Omaha Road 4-6-0 in brass.  By the time I met Carl he was a live steamer and his 3/4" to the foot live steam British locomotive was immaculate in its workmanship. 

              Globe was I think the first with sprung trucks in HO. 

              In the November 1951 issue of Model Railroader the Globe ad says "We're moving to California."  I believe that is when Athearn acquired the line although it was sold as a separate line for a time with its own address in LA.

              What really put Globe on the map came in 1954 with the introduction of their F7 A and B units, dummies both, and initially, undecorated.  The A unit was 98 cents and the B unit was 89 cents, and I am pretty sure these are the same castings (styrene plastic) that Athearn sold for years until the advent of their new line of F units using Highliner tooling.   One difference is that the number boards were separate castings; I think Athearn changed that in the 1960s.  The review in the October 1954 MR says "just about the most beautiful plastic castings we have ever seen.  Detail is lavish, precise and incredibly neat."  The fact that the same tooling served Athearn for nearly 50 years is interesting!   The street address for Globe in that review is the same for the Athearn ad in the same issue.  By December 1954 the F units were offered in geared form for $14.95 and came painted for ATSF and UP -- the ad is for Globe "an Athearn Quality Product."

              In the early days of plastic models many manufacturers were convinced that if they colored the plastic there was no need to paint the model.  Things did look pretty cheesy for a time -- the poster above mentioned that the model is translucent.  Painting the inside of the model black or silver helped a little bit.

              Dave Nelson 

              ******************************

              Chuck Kinzer

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Glenn476
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:50 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] F7 Model History

               

              besides the gold and silver painted units they came in UP--but the builder had to paint the gray and the red stripes.  gj
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14816 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              The Santa Fe and SP BW were a later run--still very early--possibly PRR to give the easterners one--
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 9:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] F7 Model History

              Globe also came in at least Santa Fe, also.  But the instruction sheets seemed to always be showing Union Pacific at some point no matter which F7 was in the box.
               
              Here are some Globe comments to add to what Brad Smith posted.  These comments are from a trains.com forum http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/147078/1637160.aspx
               
              Especially note where it says "The review in the October 1954 MR says "just about the most beautiful plastic castings we have ever seen.  Detail is lavish, precise and incredibly neat."
               
              (I really don't know if it's OK to copy and paste such things.  But here it is...)
               

              ******************************

              Globe Models began as a Milwaukee WI manufacturer and was later sold to Athearn,  I believe the line was designed by the late Carl Traub, one of the most skilled scratchbuilders you'd ever want to encounter.  He built, if I remember right, the tender for the B&O 2-8-2 that the late Gordon Odegaard scratchbuilt for a series of MR articles some 25 or 30 years ago, and had his own article series on scratchbuilding an Omaha Road 4-6-0 in brass.  By the time I met Carl he was a live steamer and his 3/4" to the foot live steam British locomotive was immaculate in its workmanship. 

              Globe was I think the first with sprung trucks in HO. 

              In the November 1951 issue of Model Railroader the Globe ad says "We're moving to California."  I believe that is when Athearn acquired the line although it was sold as a separate line for a time with its own address in LA.

              What really put Globe on the map came in 1954 with the introduction of their F7 A and B units, dummies both, and initially, undecorated.  The A unit was 98 cents and the B unit was 89 cents, and I am pretty sure these are the same castings (styrene plastic) that Athearn sold for years until the advent of their new line of F units using Highliner tooling.   One difference is that the number boards were separate castings; I think Athearn changed that in the 1960s.  The review in the October 1954 MR says "just about the most beautiful plastic castings we have ever seen.  Detail is lavish, precise and incredibly neat."  The fact that the same tooling served Athearn for nearly 50 years is interesting!   The street address for Globe in that review is the same for the Athearn ad in the same issue.  By December 1954 the F units were offered in geared form for $14.95 and came painted for ATSF and UP -- the ad is for Globe "an Athearn Quality Product."

              In the early days of plastic models many manufacturers were convinced that if they colored the plastic there was no need to paint the model.  Things did look pretty cheesy for a time -- the poster above mentioned that the model is translucent.  Painting the inside of the model black or silver helped a little bit.

              Dave Nelson 

              ******************************

              Chuck Kinzer

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Glenn476
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:50 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] F7 Model History

               

              besides the gold and silver painted units they came in UP--but the builder had to paint the gray and the red stripes.  gj
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14817 From: Ken Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History Highliners... A bit OT but important
              Highliners was not a "they" it was a "he". Paul Lubliner And building the mold for the B unit nearly bankrupted him.
              Thats why the A took forever.
              He saw that a basic F unit was in fact modular, so he did the tooling for all those panels and grills.. You can build anything from a F2-F9 At an average cost of 20,000 dollars, each mold was a big fully personal investment. That is average, some were 90,000 others around 10,000. We have him to thank for the Athearn Genesis F units.I have around 12 AB ABA ABBA sets. Since I model PRR Highliners were and are the only proper and correct way to do their F units.
              Ken
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14818 From: Chris B Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: ID? vintage sheet metal F unit on ebay?
              Anyone know what this one might be?  All the desc says is: "this is a brass f unit a and b , unpowered, these are parts and incomplete, they are old, could be powered, thanks"

              I'm always interested in early metal diesels, especially cast car-bodies and switchers,
              and I know this is sheet brass not cast, but I still don't recall seeing one like this so far in my limited experience... 

              Chris B.


              Item image
               
              Get fast shipping and excellent service when you buy from eBay Top-rated sellers0 Bids$50.00Time left:4d 3h 18m



                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14819 From: Lawrence Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              I believe the Globe F7 was made more popular by its low cost and availability in the early 50s off the back of cereal boxes. My first F7A and B in silver came from there, dummies but complete with the bulkheads at the rear of the cab. These resulted in the end of my "dreams" of a Lionel empire! Somewhere I also picked up plain black plastic unit with the bulkheads. I also got a set of silver shorty passenger cars off the cereal boxes that look exactly like the Athearn Blue Box shorties, especially the dome car. Were these also Globe products?

              Dale in Spokane

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, corlissbs@... wrote:
              >
              > Globe was started by a Carl Traub of Milwaukee. He made the dies in his
              > basement. Carl was in our live steam model club, as he was also a live
              > steamer. I used to borrow taps, etc., from Carl, when I was starting out in
              > live steam. Carl sold Globe to Athearn, who produced the exact Globe dummy
              > F7 in gold paint and an Athearn box. There was a removable cab rear wall,
              > that slid into tabs, to hold it in place. If I remember correctly, it even
              > had the two rear cab doors on the wall.
              >
              > The number boards were separate pieces that fit onto two "pimples" on each
              > side, for location. The horns were in three pieces each and had to be
              > glued together. The Athearn "Globe" cost $0.98, in 1960.
              >
              > Athearn eventually went away from the separate number boards and three
              > piece horn, but at the expense of accuracy. By using a separate number board,
              > the ends of the number board were straight, as on a real F7. Athearn
              > changed these angles to a taper to make removal from the die possible. Also,
              > Carl's horn was the correct size of the prototype horn. Athearn's was
              > grossly oversize, for a WABCO horn. Thus, from that time on, HO F7's had the
              > wrong contour on the number boards and oversized horns. But we didn't know
              > any better. Eventually, some aftermarket detail guy made replacement
              > number boards and horns, for the purest. Most modelers didn't know the
              > difference anyway.
              >
              > The next to use this body was Penn Line. I suspect that PL had an
              > agreement with Athearn for Irv to produce the bodies for PL, as they were exactly
              > the same, and in exactly the same road names and colors. Nicer running
              > than Athearn, but at a much higher cost. They used a gear drive, with a
              > spring transmitting power and a Pittman motor. I could never afford one, at
              > that time.
              >
              > Revell came next, in the very early 1960s, with their own F7 body. They
              > went back to the separate number boards to keep the proper angles and a
              > smaller, one piece horn. You can tell Revell started from scratch, as the body
              > has a different nose contour. Revell also used heavy cast-on grab irons,
              > which spoiled the looks. Incidentally, Revell engines ran like crap.
              >
              > About the same time, Mantua came out with their F7. A direct copy of the
              > Athearn "improved" body, but with the smaller horns, that I now know look
              > more realistic. So by then we all thought that number boards actually had
              > that contour. The Mantua engine ran the best of all, with that bulletproof,
              > self contained power truck that could be doubled by making the other truck
              > powered also. Later that truck was cheapened and never ran as nice.
              >
              > Now the funny part. I would say this was in the late 1960's. Japanese
              > company, Rosko, made an exact reproduction of the Globe F7 body, and sold
              > their locomotive in the US, in the toy market. However, they must not have
              > had the number boards in their Globe sample, as they left them off. So
              > their loco has four "pimples" where the number board should be. I have all
              > these locos in my collection, to compare.
              >
              > F7 life remained like this until Highliners came out in the late 1970's, I
              > believe. There were some brass F-units, but we won't discuss them, and
              > Varney made an F3, but that is not an F7!
              >
              > Brad Smith
              > Franklin, WI
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14820 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
              Group,

              Customer of mine gave me this sheet metal F7 and coach (There is another coach I also have), that is more-or-less HO, and runs on HO track and current (12VDC).

              The track it has is fiberboard ties with stamped metal rails.

              This unit has the roof fan arrangement of an F7, or maybe it is an F9. In either event, I am curious to who made it.

              The locomotive's numberboards read 'TD1234' and the train was apparently made in Western Germany.

              Someone told me it is likely Marx, as he thinks it was at least imported by them or made for them by someone else.

              Any thoughts?

              I ran the locomotive, and it runs like a bat out of Hell! Not bad for being one axle powered!

              -Steve Neubaum
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14821 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
              Sure looks like MARX, or MAR Line.
              Not sure if MAR Line was in H0.
              Lok at the Santa Fe logo on the side of the engine.....does it say "SAnta Fe" or something else?

              Dave
              > Group,
              >
              > Customer of mine gave me this sheet metal F7 and coach (There is another coach I also have), that is more-or-less HO, and runs on HO track and current (12VDC).
              >
              > The track it has is fiberboard ties with stamped metal rails.
              >
              > This unit has the roof fan arrangement of an F7, or maybe it is an F9. In either event, I am curious to who made it.
              >
              > The locomotive's numberboards read 'TD1234' and the train was apparently made in Western Germany.
              >
              > Someone told me it is likely Marx, as he thinks it was at least imported by them or made for them by someone else.
              >
              > Any thoughts?
              >
              > I ran the locomotive, and it runs like a bat out of Hell! Not bad for being one axle powered!
              >
              > -Steve Neubaum
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14822 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
              I just looked at the Indian head logo, it does indeed say 'SANTA FE'.

              To throw more mud into the water, the loop of track was missing two curve pieces. M&W Internet Auctions, on eBay, has a set of 20 Fleishmann curve track pieces that look like what this loco came with. That would explain the 'Made in Western Germany'.

              However, I am gathering that Marx factors in somewhere. I showed it to the LHS owner, and he is almost certain it is Marx, as he said he had one like it as a kid in the 1950s.

              The train uses tab and slot couplers, too, which is a very Marx way of doing it.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Wed, 8/11/10, trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:

              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, August 11, 2010, 3:26 PM

               


              Sure looks like MARX, or MAR Line.
              Not sure if MAR Line was in H0.
              Lok at the Santa Fe logo on the side of the engine.....does it say "SAnta Fe" or something else?

              Dave
              > Group,
              >
              > Customer of mine gave me this sheet metal F7 and coach (There is another coach I also have), that is more-or-less HO, and runs on HO track and current (12VDC).
              >
              > The track it has is fiberboard ties with stamped metal rails.
              >
              > This unit has the roof fan arrangement of an F7, or maybe it is an F9. In either event, I am curious to who made it.
              >
              > The locomotive's numberboards read 'TD1234' and the train was apparently made in Western Germany.
              >
              > Someone told me it is likely Marx, as he thinks it was at least imported by them or made for them by someone else.
              >
              > Any thoughts?
              >
              > I ran the locomotive, and it runs like a bat out of Hell! Not bad for being one axle powered!
              >
              > -Steve Neubaum
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14823 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Colored Plastic
              Athearn used red and yellow plastic on their early Hustler locomotives and thus did not paint the shells before applying the stripes and number.  This was done later, by other manufacturers, such as Hobbytown of Boston on their plastic RS-3 and later by Walthers, on their freight cars.  Marx did this also on their HO train cars.
               
              Brad Smith
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14824 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              Jim, that's right.  The later Penn Line F7's did have the shorter steps.  The top step was shortened so that the rung spacing was not equal.  My example has the short steps.  Everything else is an exact copy of the Athearn, including the paint schemes, of particular, the white New Haven scheme.  Exact copy!
               
              Brad Smith
              Franklin, WI
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14825 From: jim heckard Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Globe / Athearn & Carnation Milk Promo
              Attachments :
                    I thought all might like to see the advertisement from Carnation Milk that was run back when the Globe / Athearn F-7 A&B and passenger car set was used as a promo. These were the first HO passenger cars ( slightly different then later Athearn in the number of parts ) I was able to get. This sheet and at least a few of the parts / assembly sheets should be on hoseeker.
               
                    Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14826 From: jim heckard Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: ID? vintage sheet metal F unit on ebay? [2 Attachments]
              Chris,
               
                  I never saw this before. No clue. Good luck.
               
                                                      Jim
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:12 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] ID? vintage sheet metal F unit on ebay? [2 Attachments]

               

              Anyone know what this one might be?  All the desc says is: "this is a brass f unit a and b , unpowered, these are parts and incomplete, they are old, could be powered, thanks"

              I'm always interested in early metal diesels, especially cast car-bodies and switchers,
              and I know this is sheet brass not cast, but I still don't recall seeing one like this so far in my limited experience.. . 

              Chris B.


              Item image
               
              Get fast shipping and excellent service when you buy from eBay Top-rated sellers 0 Bids $50.00 Time left:4d 3h 18m



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14827 From: Dale Smith Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              I just took a look at what I believed to be an Athearn F7 that I
              recently picked up at a train show and found, not 2, but 3 pimples on
              each side, with the third one centered above the other 2. The frame and
              running gear are clearly Athearn Hi-F and marked Athearn. I could find
              no markings on the inside of the shell, which is Santa Fe warbonnet.
              There is what looks like silver chroming on the inside top of the hood
              area. Could this be a Rosko on an Athearn drive?

              Dale Smith
              Pacifica, CA

              corlissbs@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > The number boards were separate pieces that fit onto two "pimples" on
              > each side, for location. The horns were in three pieces each and had
              > to be glued together. The Athearn "Globe" cost $0.98, in 1960.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14828 From: trainliker Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              Globe also made passenger cars that I think were the forerunners of Athearn cars. But the roof, sides, and ends were separate. With Athearn, that is all cast as a single unit. Don't know if Athearn somehow combined existing dies, or made new ones. But the results sure look identical to me.

              Chuck Kinzer

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence" <dale.hokanson@...> wrote:
              >
              > I believe the Globe F7 was made more popular by its low cost and availability in the early 50s off the back of cereal boxes. My first F7A and B in silver came from there, dummies but complete with the bulkheads at the rear of the cab. These resulted in the end of my "dreams" of a Lionel empire! Somewhere I also picked up plain black plastic unit with the bulkheads. I also got a set of silver shorty passenger cars off the cereal boxes that look exactly like the Athearn Blue Box shorties, especially the dome car. Were these also Globe products?
              >
              > Dale in Spokane
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, corlissbs@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Globe was started by a Carl Traub of Milwaukee. He made the dies in his
              > > basement. Carl was in our live steam model club, as he was also a live
              > > steamer. I used to borrow taps, etc., from Carl, when I was starting out in
              > > live steam. Carl sold Globe to Athearn, who produced the exact Globe dummy
              > > F7 in gold paint and an Athearn box. There was a removable cab rear wall,
              > > that slid into tabs, to hold it in place. If I remember correctly, it even
              > > had the two rear cab doors on the wall.
              > >
              > > The number boards were separate pieces that fit onto two "pimples" on each
              > > side, for location. The horns were in three pieces each and had to be
              > > glued together. The Athearn "Globe" cost $0.98, in 1960.
              > >
              > > Athearn eventually went away from the separate number boards and three
              > > piece horn, but at the expense of accuracy. By using a separate number board,
              > > the ends of the number board were straight, as on a real F7. Athearn
              > > changed these angles to a taper to make removal from the die possible. Also,
              > > Carl's horn was the correct size of the prototype horn. Athearn's was
              > > grossly oversize, for a WABCO horn. Thus, from that time on, HO F7's had the
              > > wrong contour on the number boards and oversized horns. But we didn't know
              > > any better. Eventually, some aftermarket detail guy made replacement
              > > number boards and horns, for the purest. Most modelers didn't know the
              > > difference anyway.
              > >
              > > The next to use this body was Penn Line. I suspect that PL had an
              > > agreement with Athearn for Irv to produce the bodies for PL, as they were exactly
              > > the same, and in exactly the same road names and colors. Nicer running
              > > than Athearn, but at a much higher cost. They used a gear drive, with a
              > > spring transmitting power and a Pittman motor. I could never afford one, at
              > > that time.
              > >
              > > Revell came next, in the very early 1960s, with their own F7 body. They
              > > went back to the separate number boards to keep the proper angles and a
              > > smaller, one piece horn. You can tell Revell started from scratch, as the body
              > > has a different nose contour. Revell also used heavy cast-on grab irons,
              > > which spoiled the looks. Incidentally, Revell engines ran like crap.
              > >
              > > About the same time, Mantua came out with their F7. A direct copy of the
              > > Athearn "improved" body, but with the smaller horns, that I now know look
              > > more realistic. So by then we all thought that number boards actually had
              > > that contour. The Mantua engine ran the best of all, with that bulletproof,
              > > self contained power truck that could be doubled by making the other truck
              > > powered also. Later that truck was cheapened and never ran as nice.
              > >
              > > Now the funny part. I would say this was in the late 1960's. Japanese
              > > company, Rosko, made an exact reproduction of the Globe F7 body, and sold
              > > their locomotive in the US, in the toy market. However, they must not have
              > > had the number boards in their Globe sample, as they left them off. So
              > > their loco has four "pimples" where the number board should be. I have all
              > > these locos in my collection, to compare.
              > >
              > > F7 life remained like this until Highliners came out in the late 1970's, I
              > > believe. There were some brass F-units, but we won't discuss them, and
              > > Varney made an F3, but that is not an F7!
              > >
              > > Brad Smith
              > > Franklin, WI
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14829 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History Highliners... A bit OT but important
              Hi Ken,
               
              Yes I had heard about Paul Lubliner, thanks for reminding me of his name, I realize for him, it was a labor of love more than anything else, and I guess if he wanted to get the A units out, (in my opinion, the units he should have released first, as he would have sold enough to take care of releasing the B unit), Not to mention the cost of advertising in MR and RMC back in the day, then there are always other costs involved, Athearn probably came along just in the nick of time, and almost went bankrupt themselves, (not because of the HO scale Genesis line,  but because of their new N scale releases), I always felt that he had a great idea there, unfortunately many of the other manufacturers didn't see it his way, Bob and Matt Kosic were very famous how they would make certain corrections to the old Athearn F units, which was fine in and of itself, however, you do get tired of doing the same model over and over again, so Paul had a better idea...:o)
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: Ken <k4sb@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 12:52:18 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: F7 Model History Highliners... A bit OT but important

               

              Highliners was not a "they" it was a "he". Paul Lubliner And building the mold for the B unit nearly bankrupted him.
              Thats why the A took forever.
              He saw that a basic F unit was in fact modular, so he did the tooling for all those panels and grills.. You can build anything from a F2-F9 At an average cost of 20,000 dollars, each mold was a big fully personal investment. That is average, some were 90,000 others around 10,000. We have him to thank for the Athearn Genesis F units.I have around 12 AB ABA ABBA sets. Since I model PRR Highliners were and are the only proper and correct way to do their F units.
              Ken


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14830 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              Dale, the top "pimple" is the classification light.  The lower two locate the number boards.  Rosko only made the engine in New Haven, I believe.  You probably have an early Athearn, that the owner didn't put the number boards on.
               
              Brad Smith
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14831 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              The early Athearn streamline passenger cars had separate sides, roof and ends that had to be glued together.  It was around 1961 when Athearn produced the same car in a one piece body.
               
              Brad Smith
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14832 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              Hi Chuck,
               
              When Athearn brought out the one piece body passenger cars, that was indicative of the technology advancing enough to make a decent well detailed casting, and not having it look toylike, yes, Athearn may have used the original multi piece body as a pattern for the new body, but they most likely had new dies made to make the one piece body..
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: trainliker <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 6:22:14 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: F7 Model History

               

              Globe also made passenger cars that I think were the forerunners of Athearn cars. But the roof, sides, and ends were separate. With Athearn, that is all cast as a single unit. Don't know if Athearn somehow combined existing dies, or made new ones. But the results sure look identical to me.

              Chuck Kinzer

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence" <dale.hokanson@...> wrote:
              >
              > I believe the Globe F7 was made more popular by its low cost and availability in the early 50s off the back of cereal boxes. My first F7A and B in silver came from there, dummies but complete with the bulkheads at the rear of the cab. These resulted in the end of my "dreams" of a Lionel empire! Somewhere I also picked up plain black plastic unit with the bulkheads. I also got a set of silver shorty passenger cars off the cereal boxes that look exactly like the Athearn Blue Box shorties, especially the dome car. Were these also Globe products?
              >
              > Dale in Spokane
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, corlissbs@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Globe was started by a Carl Traub of Milwaukee. He made the dies in his
              > > basement. Carl was in our live steam model club, as he was also a live
              > > steamer. I used to borrow taps, etc., from Carl, when I was starting out in
              > > live steam. Carl sold Globe to Athearn, who produced the exact Globe dummy
              > > F7 in gold paint and an Athearn box. There was a removable cab rear wall,
              > > that slid into tabs, to hold it in place. If I remember correctly, it even
              > > had the two rear cab doors on the wall.
              > >
              > > The number boards were separate pieces that fit onto two "pimples" on each
              > > side, for location. The horns were in three pieces each and had to be
              > > glued together. The Athearn "Globe" cost $0.98, in 1960.
              > >
              > > Athearn eventually went away from the separate number boards and three
              > > piece horn, but at the expense of accuracy. By using a separate number board,
              > > the ends of the number board were straight, as on a real F7. Athearn
              > > changed these angles to a taper to make removal from the die possible. Also,
              > > Carl's horn was the correct size of the prototype horn. Athearn's was
              > > grossly oversize, for a WABCO horn. Thus, from that time on, HO F7's had the
              > > wrong contour on the number boards and oversized horns. But we didn't know
              > > any better. Eventually, some aftermarket detail guy made replacement
              > > number boards and horns, for the purest. Most modelers didn't know the
              > > difference anyway.
              > >
              > > The next to use this body was Penn Line. I suspect that PL had an
              > > agreement with Athearn for Irv to produce the bodies for PL, as they were exactly
              > > the same, and in exactly the same road names and colors. Nicer running
              > > than Athearn, but at a much higher cost. They used a gear drive, with a
              > > spring transmitting power and a Pittman motor. I could never afford one, at
              > > that time.
              > >
              > > Revell came next, in the very early 1960s, with their own F7 body. They
              > > went back to the separate number boards to keep the proper angles and a
              > > smaller, one piece horn. You can tell Revell started from scratch, as the body
              > > has a different nose contour. Revell also used heavy cast-on grab irons,
              > > which spoiled the looks. Incidentally, Revell engines ran like crap.
              > >
              > > About the same time, Mantua came out with their F7. A direct copy of the
              > > Athearn "improved" body, but with the smaller horns, that I now know look
              > > more realistic. So by then we all thought that number boards actually had
              > > that contour. The Mantua engine ran the best of all, with that bulletproof,
              > > self contained power truck that could be doubled by making the other truck
              > > powered also. Later that truck was cheapened and never ran as nice.
              > >
              > > Now the funny part. I would say this was in the late 1960's. Japanese
              > > company, Rosko, made an exact reproduction of the Globe F7 body, and sold
              > > their locomotive in the US, in the toy market. However, they must not have
              > > had the number boards in their Globe sample, as they left them off. So
              > > their loco has four "pimples" where the number board should be. I have all
              > > these locos in my collection, to compare.
              > >
              > > F7 life remained like this until Highliners came out in the late 1970's, I
              > > believe. There were some brass F-units, but we won't discuss them, and
              > > Varney made an F3, but that is not an F7!
              > >
              > > Brad Smith
              > > Franklin, WI
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14833 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: ID? vintage sheet metal F unit on ebay?
              Looks like some early photoetching work, could be something someone was scratchbuilding, however, most home scratchbuilders didn't do photoetching in those days.
               
              Gary W

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 6:14:35 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ID? vintage sheet metal F unit on ebay?

               

              Chris,
               
                  I never saw this before. No clue. Good luck.
               
                                                      Jim
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:12 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] ID? vintage sheet metal F unit on ebay? [2 Attachments]

               

              Anyone know what this one might be?  All the desc says is: "this is a brass f unit a and b , unpowered, these are parts and incomplete, they are old, could be powered, thanks"

              I'm always interested in early metal diesels, especially cast car-bodies and switchers,
              and I know this is sheet brass not cast, but I still don't recall seeing one like this so far in my limited experience.. . 

              Chris B.


              Item image
               
              Get fast shipping and excellent service when you buy from eBay Top-rated sellers 0 Bids $50.00 Time left:4d 3h 18m




              Group: vintageHO Message: 14834 From: Roger Aultman Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: VARNEY PLASTIC
              I recently acquired these two Varney plastic hoppers, they have seperate ladders the few others I have have the ladders molded on.  These seem to neat to be a modification, were they made both ways?   Roger Aultman
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14835 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: VARNEY PLASTIC [1 Attachment]
              The early Varney plastic cars had separate ladders.  I have them both ways...  Separate ladders and cast on ladders.  Usually the printing was better on the early plastic cars with the separate ladders.

              Don Staton in VA.
              ==========================================================================

              On 8/11/2010 8:47 PM, Roger Aultman wrote:
               

              I recently acquired these two Varney plastic hoppers, they have seperate ladders the few others I have have the ladders molded on.  These seem to neat to be a modification, were they made both ways?   Roger Aultman
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14836 From: rcjge Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: HO scale Rotating Mars light?
              Hey Fella's:

              Does anyone remember from the 50's? era a working Mars light in HO scale. I thought I saw an ad in an old Model Train Magazine. Perhaps there's a modern version?

              Thanks,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14837 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: F7 Model History
              The shorter steps were to provide holes for the truck brackets to clip into.
              The last Penn Lines before they went under and sold out didn't even have a
              frame. There was an "h" shaped bracket that held the motor/truck, like a
              Mantua, and it clipped into those steps.

              Pull any kind of load, or have one derailment, and the steps sheared off and
              the locomotive was junk!

              Penn Line claimed slot cars were the cause of their demise, but I think that
              drive design deserves a share of the credit/blame.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <corlissbs@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:07 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] F7 Model History


              > Jim, that's right. The later Penn Line F7's did have the shorter steps.
              > The top step was shortened so that the rung spacing was not equal. My
              > example has the short steps. Everything else is an exact copy of the
              > Athearn,
              > including the paint schemes, of particular, the white New Haven scheme.
              > Exact copy!
              >
              > Brad Smith
              > Franklin, WI
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14838 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Colored Plastic
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <corlissbs@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:42 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Colored Plastic


              > Athearn used red and yellow plastic on their early Hustler locomotives and
              > thus did not paint the shells before applying the stripes and number.
              > This
              > was done later, by other manufacturers, such as Hobbytown of Boston on
              > their plastic RS-3 and later by Walthers, on their freight cars. Marx
              > did
              > this also on their HO train cars.
              >
              > Brad Smith

              As did HObbyline even before Athearn.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14839 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Re: HO scale Rotating Mars light?
              Scalelite made a line of lighting kits including a Mars Light. It used an
              automotive-type flasher and some resistors--had clear inserts for lights and
              number boards--looked good--I had a couple in Varney F-3's--still have one
              in the box. Newer ones take up a lot less room, and use less power. DCC
              often includes these. gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 6:46 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] HO scale Rotating Mars light?


              > Hey Fella's:
              >
              > Does anyone remember from the 50's? era a working Mars light in HO scale.
              > I thought I saw an ad in an old Model Train Magazine. Perhaps there's a
              > modern version?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14840 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Re: HO scale Rotating Mars light?
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:46 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] HO scale Rotating Mars light?


              > Hey Fella's:
              >
              > Does anyone remember from the 50's? era a working Mars light in HO scale.
              > I thought I saw an ad in an old Model Train Magazine. Perhaps there's a
              > modern version?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth

              Kemtron had one that was a flasher using a dual filament bulb.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14841 From: Lawrence Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
              Wow, that HO(?) photo has a nose that looks dead on for the Marx E units in 027 as I recall from the fifties.

              Dale in Spokane
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14842 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?
              Hi all,

              I will post pictures shortly

              Thanks,
              Sean
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14843 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?
              Hi All!
               
              Here is a set I just created:
               
               
              If anyone has any information, It will surely be appreciated. I believe it is representative of a New Haven EP-4, which is why I purchased it.
               
              It is all cast brass in construction and the details are somewhat crude, but nicely done.
               
              Thanks,
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 6:05:30 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?

               

              Hi all,

              I will post pictures shortly

              Thanks,
              Sean


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14844 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
              Aha!
               
              I found it, using Jim's ever helpful photo reference library!
               
               
              Schrader New Haven EP-4
               
              I would sure love to compare pictures Jim. Mine looks to be slightly different in that the details have been altered.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Lawrence <dale.hokanson@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 5:19:54 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach

               

              Wow, that HO(?) photo has a nose that looks dead on for the Marx E units in 027 as I recall from the fifties.

              Dale in Spokane


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14845 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach
              oops.. thought I was replying to my thread... sorry!
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 7:05:32 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach

               

              Aha!
               
              I found it, using Jim's ever helpful photo reference library!
               
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/269083576/pic/1511423353/view?picmode=original&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&dir=asc
               
              Schrader New Haven EP-4
               
              I would sure love to compare pictures Jim. Mine looks to be slightly different in that the details have been altered.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Lawrence <dale.hokanson@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 5:19:54 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tinplate HO Scale F7 and Coach

               

              Wow, that HO(?) photo has a nose that looks dead on for the Marx E units in 027 as I recall from the fifties.

              Dale in Spokane



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14846 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?
              Aha!
               
              I found it, using Jim's ever helpful photo reference library!
               
               
              Schrader New Haven EP-4
               
              I would sure love to compare pictures Jim. Mine looks to be slightly different in that the details have been altered.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 6:57:16 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?

               

              Hi All!
               
              Here is a set I just created:
               
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157624712447072/
               
              If anyone has any information, It will surely be appreciated. I believe it is representative of a New Haven EP-4, which is why I purchased it.
               
              It is all cast brass in construction and the details are somewhat crude, but nicely done.
               
              Thanks,
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 6:05:30 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?

               

              Hi all,

              I will post pictures shortly

              Thanks,
              Sean



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14847 From: Chris B Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?
              Attachments :
              Sean, I'd never seen or heard of one, but wow, that is classic looking machine!
               
              I googled and ebayed around, and found nothing on andeco myself, except these three traction units on ebay with Andeco drives.
               
              (pictures of just the drives showing the andeco name on the bottom of the drives attached)
               
              are these drives original to these units or are they pulled from other types of Andeco engines?
               
              Chris B.
               
               
              Item image
               
              Get fast shipping and excellent service when you buy from eBay Top-rated sellers 6 Bids $99.99 Time left:2d 19h 28m
              Item image
               
              Get fast shipping and excellent service when you buy from eBay Top-rated sellers 2 Bids $26.69 Time left:4d 0h 8m
              Item image
               
              Get fast shipping and excellent service when you buy from eBay Top-rated sellers 2 Bids $16.49 Time left:4d 20h 
               
               
               
               
               
               
               


              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 6:57:16 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?

               

              Hi All!
               
              Here is a set I just created:
               
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157624712447072/
               
              If anyone has any information, It will surely be appreciated. I believe it is representative of a New Haven EP-4, which is why I purchased it.
               
              It is all cast brass in construction and the details are somewhat crude, but nicely done.
               
              Thanks,
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: 69_Mustang_Man <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 6:05:30 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?

               

              Hi all,

              I will post pictures shortly

              Thanks,
              Sean



                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14848 From: jim heckard Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Schrader EP-4
              Sean,
               
                 Just got on the computer and saw you got a Schrader EP-4. Nice find.
               
                   If you want pictures of mine go on HOseeker, click on Gallery,  Go down and click Other HO trains, go to page 13 Schrader Metal Specialties and you will find 5 pictures with text. My engine has a problem in that the previous owner tried to use a drill bit to take out the windows and made a mess. I had to use my milling machine to try to straighten them out and had to go oversize. I had intended to add a frame but never got to it.
               
                   If you want information go to HOseeker, Click on Literature, go to Schrader and click on instructions and you will find a 5 page booklet about the EP-4. You will see my engine was No. 19 made.
               
                   There were not many made and there might have been two drives.  I can research the differences in the drives by going through " The Reporting Mark" newsletters from our old H O Scale Collectors and History -SIG. group but not having an index will take a little time but I know there are write ups about their differences. Let me know if it would help. I won't mind doing it if it helps..
               
                                                                    Jim H
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14849 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Schrader EP-4
              Hi Jim,
               
              Yes. It was pretty expensive at ~$170 inc s/h. I was thinking it was going to be a japan import.
               
              I would love to find out anything you can tell me. How did you determine what your build number was? That would be neat to know.
               
              Any idea how many were produced?

              Thanks so much in advance.
               
              Sean
               

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 7:55:23 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Schrader EP-4

               

              Sean,
               
                 Just got on the computer and saw you got a Schrader EP-4. Nice find.
               
                   If you want pictures of mine go on HOseeker, click on Gallery,  Go down and click Other HO trains, go to page 13 Schrader Metal Specialties and you will find 5 pictures with text. My engine has a problem in that the previous owner tried to use a drill bit to take out the windows and made a mess. I had to use my milling machine to try to straighten them out and had to go oversize. I had intended to add a frame but never got to it.
               
                   If you want information go to HOseeker, Click on Literature, go to Schrader and click on instructions and you will find a 5 page booklet about the EP-4. You will see my engine was No. 19 made.
               
                   There were not many made and there might have been two drives.  I can research the differences in the drives by going through " The Reporting Mark" newsletters from our old H O Scale Collectors and History -SIG. group but not having an index will take a little time but I know there are write ups about their differences. Let me know if it would help. I won't mind doing it if it helps..
               
                                                                    Jim H
               
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14850 From: jim heckard Date: 8/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Schrader EP-4
              
              Sean,
               
                  I will go through my newsletters tomorrow and see what I can come up with. Mine came in the original box with the 5 page booklet that I have on HOseeker. Also inside was a printed slip stating it was no. 19.  I know there was a product review done in RMC back then that I think listed how many made. Schrader also made a GG-1.
               
                  To me $170 with S&H pretty good deal
               
                                                              Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:02 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Schrader EP-4

               

              Hi Jim,
               
              Yes. It was pretty expensive at ~$170 inc s/h. I was thinking it was going to be a japan import.
               
              I would love to find out anything you can tell me. How did you determine what your build number was? That would be neat to know.
               
              Any idea how many were produced?

              Thanks so much in advance.
               
              Sean
               

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 7:55:23 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Schrader EP-4

               

              Sean,
               
                 Just got on the computer and saw you got a Schrader EP-4. Nice find.
               
                   If you want pictures of mine go on HOseeker, click on Gallery,  Go down and click Other HO trains, go to page 13 Schrader Metal Specialties and you will find 5 pictures with text. My engine has a problem in that the previous owner tried to use a drill bit to take out the windows and made a mess. I had to use my milling machine to try to straighten them out and had to go oversize. I had intended to add a frame but never got to it.
               
                   If you want information go to HOseeker, Click on Literature, go to Schrader and click on instructions and you will find a 5 page booklet about the EP-4. You will see my engine was No. 19 made.
               
                   There were not many made and there might have been two drives.  I can research the differences in the drives by going through " The Reporting Mark" newsletters from our old H O Scale Collectors and History -SIG. group but not having an index will take a little time but I know there are write ups about their differences. Let me know if it would help. I won't mind doing it if it helps..
               
                                                                    Jim H
               
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14851 From: jim heckard Date: 8/13/2010
              Subject: Schrader EP-4
              Sean,
               
                 I enclosed pictures of first    Loco Builders Photo - 10  of the ( 4-6-6-4 ) 2-2+2-2  New Haven EP-4 Electric that was in RMC August 1962.
               
                  I hope you can read the fine print as I don't type well enough to copy it all. If you can't read it I will type it out for you. According to this it was first made in August 1957 and discontinued in early 1961. There were only 75 made.
               
                The second picture is an exploded view drawing for this EP-4. If you go to hoseeker Literature section for Schrader you will find this and the whole 5 page booklet I sent in about the Schrader EP-4. I can send you a picture of my original box if you want that.
               
                 I'm still going through my "Reporting Mark" newsletters as there might be more info but hard to go through 4 issues a year, 16 pages minimum an issue for over twenty years page by page since I have no index which would make it faster. I haven't found anything about different type drives yet but I'm pretty sure something was mentioned. Hope this helps for now.
               
                                                                              Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14852 From: jim heckard Date: 8/13/2010
              Subject: Schrader Box and Guarantee card
              Sean,
               
                I figure you might like to see the original box and the Guarantee card where it list   Kit 00019   Serial No. 00019  from 11-8-57
               
                                                            Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14853 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Varney V-1 motor
                          A while back someone was looking for a good Varney V-1 ( 6 volt) motor. If you go to eBay item 280548559253 Vintage Varney Prem.Magnet motor being sold by txtitan120  you will find one for sale for $ 7.50  Buy It Now.  It states looks new in O/B  with paperwork. Seller said not sure it works but for the price well worth taking the chance.
               
                                                           Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14854 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: "Unpainting"
              A "Holy Grail" of this site seems to be finding a way to get old paint off a model without dissolving the model itself. 
               
              I was browsing the weekly ad from the local Ace Hardware store--they have several things this week that look like they might be promising:
              Motsenbocker Lift Off #4 Spray paint and graffiti remover,
              Motsenbocker Lift Off #5 Latex paint remover,
              De-Solv-It Contractors' Solvent,
              De-Solv-It Citrus cleaner solution
               
              I have not tried any of these, but the descriptions sound like one or more might fall into the category of a useful and safe paint remover.
               
              gj
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14855 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
              Hi Jim, Yeah, that was Don Huddleston who needed a Varney V-1 as his was
              received in pieces due to zamac rot. As you noticed, I put his name in caps
              in the Subject line to draw his attention to this..

              Also, I noticed that you're stuck on how to proceed with piping on your
              "Beast." Also not having luck on installing a boiler band. For the band, I'd
              recommend cutting a length of 3/32" wide soft sheet brass, probably around
              0.012" thick. I know you have a Varney Yellowstone, but if you'd like me to
              send you the plans for the Yellowstone -- showing all the piping
              installation, and what to use for it -- I'd be happy to send you copies if you think
              they'd help. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14856 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
              Ray F W ,
               
                  I just remembered someone needed it and thought $ 7.50 for a possible new pre war motor was cheap. I didn't want to go searching through all the messages to find a name. Thanks for remembering.
               
                 About the boiler band. Every time I cut any brass I have in such a small width ( I don't have the luxury of much stock ) it curls badly and when straightened out still a little out of shape. Dan Bush of Yardbird trains has a shear that he can cut any length all at once, and lessen distortion. He is cutting some pieces for me and for something else. This will help.
               
                 As for the piping I am in the " how far should I go stage". This project has kind of ballooned from what I started to do. As the project moves along and seems to be coming out pretty good I keep doing more. Since there is no engine like this to copy from do I have limited or full prototype piping. Limited as how Mantua boilers came originally. Prototype as what would most steam engines have.
               
                I now have added a walkway across the air compressors of the pilot in front of the boiler front / smoke door since I mounted the headlight low and am in the process of increasing the length of the walkways over the pilot steps. I have a second Mantua sand dome coming that is not an exact match to the one on the Mantua Pacific boiler. I am creating pieces of plastic to match the keystone like shapes ( again not sure what this detail is called)  that are aside and below the Mantua sand dome. If this all comes out good I will probably go further with piping then I originally planned.
               
                I thank you for the offer for the Varney Yellowstone piping but I have it.. I have been using a Pacific piping diagram as a kind of reference. I just painted all the undercarriage for the engine and tender ( frames, drivers, trucks, etc ). I didn't do the tender body yet until I get the cab / boiler done. Want to paint both at the same time just in case of a shading difference.
               
                 I hesitate to keep sending pictures of the progress . I don't want to "hog" the site and I'm sure some might be bored hearing about the project. I do thank you for your offers, assistance and knowledge.
               
                                                                                               Jim H
                 
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:57 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

               

              Hi Jim, Yeah, that was Don Huddleston who needed a Varney V-1 as his was
              received in pieces due to zamac rot. As you noticed, I put his name in caps
              in the Subject line to draw his attention to this..

              Also, I noticed that you're stuck on how to proceed with piping on your
              "Beast." Also not having luck on installing a boiler band. For the band, I'd
              recommend cutting a length of 3/32" wide soft sheet brass, probably around
              0.012" thick. I know you have a Varney Yellowstone, but if you'd like me to
              send you the plans for the Yellowstone -- showing all the piping
              installation, and what to use for it -- I'd be happy to send you copies if you think
              they'd help. Ray F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14857 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
              Jim,

              I, for one, am not bored of this project. In fact, it is quite interesting to me.

              I have a bunch of Mantua engines, and as they are fairly inexpensive and easy to work with, I have done some redetailing of them in the past.

              At one point, I fitted Pacific boilers onto Mikado frames, and put Bowser 32' tenders (A USRA design) behind. I was going for a USRA light Mikado design.

              I think Mr. Dellman was saying a while back that the group has TONS of storage space still available, but I don't want to step on his toes, so I leave it for him to confirm.

              Keep up the good work on the locomotive! It is getting pretty interesting!

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Sat, 8/14/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 12:07 PM

               

              Ray F W ,
               
                  I just remembered someone needed it and thought $ 7.50 for a possible new pre war motor was cheap. I didn't want to go searching through all the messages to find a name. Thanks for remembering.
               
                 About the boiler band. Every time I cut any brass I have in such a small width ( I don't have the luxury of much stock ) it curls badly and when straightened out still a little out of shape. Dan Bush of Yardbird trains has a shear that he can cut any length all at once, and lessen distortion. He is cutting some pieces for me and for something else. This will help.
               
                 As for the piping I am in the " how far should I go stage". This project has kind of ballooned from what I started to do. As the project moves along and seems to be coming out pretty good I keep doing more. Since there is no engine like this to copy from do I have limited or full prototype piping. Limited as how Mantua boilers came originally. Prototype as what would most steam engines have.
               
                I now have added a walkway across the air compressors of the pilot in front of the boiler front / smoke door since I mounted the headlight low and am in the process of increasing the length of the walkways over the pilot steps. I have a second Mantua sand dome coming that is not an exact match to the one on the Mantua Pacific boiler. I am creating pieces of plastic to match the keystone like shapes ( again not sure what this detail is called)  that are aside and below the Mantua sand dome. If this all comes out good I will probably go further with piping then I originally planned.
               
                I thank you for the offer for the Varney Yellowstone piping but I have it.. I have been using a Pacific piping diagram as a kind of reference. I just painted all the undercarriage for the engine and tender ( frames, drivers, trucks, etc ). I didn't do the tender body yet until I get the cab / boiler done. Want to paint both at the same time just in case of a shading difference.
               
                 I hesitate to keep sending pictures of the progress . I don't want to "hog" the site and I'm sure some might be bored hearing about the project. I do thank you for your offers, assistance and knowledge.
               
                                                                                               Jim H
                 
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:57 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

               

              Hi Jim, Yeah, that was Don Huddleston who needed a Varney V-1 as his was
              received in pieces due to zamac rot. As you noticed, I put his name in caps
              in the Subject line to draw his attention to this..

              Also, I noticed that you're stuck on how to proceed with piping on your
              "Beast." Also not having luck on installing a boiler band. For the band, I'd
              recommend cutting a length of 3/32" wide soft sheet brass, probably around
              0.012" thick. I know you have a Varney Yellowstone, but if you'd like me to
              send you the plans for the Yellowstone -- showing all the piping
              installation, and what to use for it -- I'd be happy to send you copies if you think
              they'd help. Ray F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14858 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: "Unpainting"
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:46 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] "Unpainting"


              A "Holy Grail" of this site seems to be finding a way to get old paint off a
              model without dissolving the model itself.

              I was browsing the weekly ad from the local Ace Hardware store--they have
              several things this week that look like they might be promising:
              Motsenbocker Lift Off #4 Spray paint and graffiti remover,
              Motsenbocker Lift Off #5 Latex paint remover,
              De-Solv-It Contractors' Solvent,
              De-Solv-It Citrus cleaner solution

              I have not tried any of these, but the descriptions sound like one or more
              might fall into the category of a useful and safe paint remover.

              If there's any plastic parts, stay away from solvents. No. 4 sounds safest,
              but will probably be the least effective.

              If it's a brass or zamac model with no plastic parts I use plain old lacquer
              thinner. If it was painted with Testor's "pla" enamel, mineral spirits work
              well without harming the plastic (I cleaned the "chrome" someone painted on
              some 1:25 promo cars back when I was in that hobby and they came out looking
              factory fresh).

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14859 From: Rick Jones Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: "Unpainting"
              On 8/14/2010 10:46 AM, Glenn476 wrote:
              >
              >
              > A "Holy Grail" of this site seems to be finding a way to get old paint
              > off a model without dissolving the model itself.
              > I was browsing the weekly ad from the local Ace Hardware store--they
              > have several things this week that look like they might be promising:
              > Motsenbocker Lift Off #4 Spray paint and graffiti remover,
              > Motsenbocker Lift Off #5 Latex paint remover,
              > De-Solv-It Contractors' Solvent,
              > De-Solv-It Citrus cleaner solution
              > I have not tried any of these, but the descriptions sound like one or
              > more might fall into the category of a useful and safe paint remover.

              My biggest desire for many years is a way to remove the numbers from
              pre-painted wood kit sides, like Central Valley, Ulrich and Silver
              Streak, so the numbers could be changed on duplicate kits. All paint
              removal suggestions that I have ever seen were for painted plastic kits.
              As such, the only method I know for changing the numbers on wood sides
              is painting over the original before adding new numbers.

              --

              Rick Jones

              I planned to be an award-winning statesman, but ended up a ward
              of the state.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14860 From: rcjge Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              Hey Gentlemen:

              Can someone tell me if the boiler/cab pics I have in my Vimy Locomotive Works Photo album ("je or pl 1-3 " are of a John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?

              I looked at plenty of pics and boy it's hard to tell if you don't know!

              Thanks,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14861 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
              For boiler bands I was using only .006" brass for O Scale locos--this will cut OK with an office-type paper cutter and not curl too badly. 
               
              for piping, Detail Associates has a line of brass wire sized to be tight for different pipe sizes--keeping in mind that pipe is described by the inside diameter--the DA wire has labels that relate the scale size of the wire to the inside diameter it is to represent   example--3/4" pipe is actually a bit over an inch in outside diameter.    gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:07 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

              Ray F W ,
               
                  I just remembered someone needed it and thought $ 7.50 for a possible new pre war motor was cheap. I didn't want to go searching through all the messages to find a name. Thanks for remembering.
               
                 About the boiler band. Every time I cut any brass I have in such a small width ( I don't have the luxury of much stock ) it curls badly and when straightened out still a little out of shape. Dan Bush of Yardbird trains has a shear that he can cut any length all at once, and lessen distortion. He is cutting some pieces for me and for something else. This will help.
               
                 As for the piping I am in the " how far should I go stage". This project has kind of ballooned from what I started to do. As the project moves along and seems to be coming out pretty good I keep doing more. Since there is no engine like this to copy from do I have limited or full prototype piping. Limited as how Mantua boilers came originally. Prototype as what would most steam engines have.
               
                I now have added a walkway across the air compressors of the pilot in front of the boiler front / smoke door since I mounted the headlight low and am in the process of increasing the length of the walkways over the pilot steps. I have a second Mantua sand dome coming that is not an exact match to the one on the Mantua Pacific boiler. I am creating pieces of plastic to match the keystone like shapes ( again not sure what this detail is called)  that are aside and below the Mantua sand dome. If this all comes out good I will probably go further with piping then I originally planned.
               
                I thank you for the offer for the Varney Yellowstone piping but I have it.. I have been using a Pacific piping diagram as a kind of reference. I just painted all the undercarriage for the engine and tender ( frames, drivers, trucks, etc ). I didn't do the tender body yet until I get the cab / boiler done. Want to paint both at the same time just in case of a shading difference.
               
                 I hesitate to keep sending pictures of the progress . I don't want to "hog" the site and I'm sure some might be bored hearing about the project. I do thank you for your offers, assistance and knowledge.
               
                                                                                               Jim H
                 
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:57 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

               

              Hi Jim, Yeah, that was Don Huddleston who needed a Varney V-1 as his was
              received in pieces due to zamac rot. As you noticed, I put his name in caps
              in the Subject line to draw his attention to this..

              Also, I noticed that you're stuck on how to proceed with piping on your
              "Beast." Also not having luck on installing a boiler band. For the band, I'd
              recommend cutting a length of 3/32" wide soft sheet brass, probably around
              0.012" thick. I know you have a Varney Yellowstone, but if you'd like me to
              send you the plans for the Yellowstone -- showing all the piping
              installation, and what to use for it -- I'd be happy to send you copies if you think
              they'd help. Ray F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14862 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor
              Glenn,
               
                 I agree that cutting 0.006" brass would be easiest if I was cutting all new bands. The problem is that the bands cast on the Mantua boiler are fairly pronounced / deeper and how would something 0.006" thick match. While I don't no how thick the bands on the Mantua boiler are to make it look right I would have to use something as thick.
               
                                                               Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Glenn476
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:44 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

               

              For boiler bands I was using only .006" brass for O Scale locos--this will cut OK with an office-type paper cutter and not curl too badly. 
               
              for piping, Detail Associates has a line of brass wire sized to be tight for different pipe sizes--keeping in mind that pipe is described by the inside diameter--the DA wire has labels that relate the scale size of the wire to the inside diameter it is to represent   example--3/4" pipe is actually a bit over an inch in outside diameter.    gj
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:07 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

              Ray F W ,
               
                  I just remembered someone needed it and thought $ 7.50 for a possible new pre war motor was cheap. I didn't want to go searching through all the messages to find a name. Thanks for remembering.
               
                 About the boiler band. Every time I cut any brass I have in such a small width ( I don't have the luxury of much stock ) it curls badly and when straightened out still a little out of shape. Dan Bush of Yardbird trains has a shear that he can cut any length all at once, and lessen distortion. He is cutting some pieces for me and for something else. This will help.
               
                 As for the piping I am in the " how far should I go stage". This project has kind of ballooned from what I started to do. As the project moves along and seems to be coming out pretty good I keep doing more. Since there is no engine like this to copy from do I have limited or full prototype piping. Limited as how Mantua boilers came originally. Prototype as what would most steam engines have.
               
                I now have added a walkway across the air compressors of the pilot in front of the boiler front / smoke door since I mounted the headlight low and am in the process of increasing the length of the walkways over the pilot steps. I have a second Mantua sand dome coming that is not an exact match to the one on the Mantua Pacific boiler. I am creating pieces of plastic to match the keystone like shapes ( again not sure what this detail is called)  that are aside and below the Mantua sand dome. If this all comes out good I will probably go further with piping then I originally planned.
               
                I thank you for the offer for the Varney Yellowstone piping but I have it.. I have been using a Pacific piping diagram as a kind of reference. I just painted all the undercarriage for the engine and tender ( frames, drivers, trucks, etc ). I didn't do the tender body yet until I get the cab / boiler done. Want to paint both at the same time just in case of a shading difference.
               
                 I hesitate to keep sending pictures of the progress . I don't want to "hog" the site and I'm sure some might be bored hearing about the project. I do thank you for your offers, assistance and knowledge.
               
                                                                                               Jim H
                 
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:57 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

               

              Hi Jim, Yeah, that was Don Huddleston who needed a Varney V-1 as his was
              received in pieces due to zamac rot. As you noticed, I put his name in caps
              in the Subject line to draw his attention to this..

              Also, I noticed that you're stuck on how to proceed with piping on your
              "Beast." Also not having luck on installing a boiler band. For the band, I'd
              recommend cutting a length of 3/32" wide soft sheet brass, probably around
              0.012" thick. I know you have a Varney Yellowstone, but if you'd like me to
              send you the plans for the Yellowstone -- showing all the piping
              installation, and what to use for it -- I'd be happy to send you copies if you think
              they'd help. Ray F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14863 From: jerrygart5 Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Jim's "beast"
              >I, for one, find your "Beast" project very interesting and admire your perseverance to end up with a unique, functional kitbashed locomotive. Keep the posts coming-if someone does not like them, then they can just skip over. But I'm guessing there are a lot of us who enjoy seeing a craftsman at work!!
              Cheers!! Jerry Garteiser
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14864 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Jim's "beast"
              I second that, Jim. Keep 'em coming!

              On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 6:23 PM, jerrygart5 <jerryg@...> wrote:
               



              >I, for one, find your "Beast" project very interesting and admire your perseverance to end up with a unique, functional kitbashed locomotive. Keep the posts coming-if someone does not like them, then they can just skip over. But I'm guessing there are a lot of us who enjoy seeing a craftsman at work!!
              Cheers!! Jerry Garteiser




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14865 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              Gareth,
               
                    Hope I can answer this. First a lot of people might not know John English had produced a three piece kit ( boiler / cab casting No. 1011, frame casting No. 1021, and Cylinder Casting No. 1031 ) for a PRR Consolidation. The boiler /cab design was bought out by Penn Line and became the basis for their Consolidation. This same boiler / cab was also used for the Penn Line Atlantic.
               
                                                            Jim H 
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:51 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?

               

              Hey Gentlemen:

              Can someone tell me if the boiler/cab pics I have in my Vimy Locomotive Works Photo album ("je or pl 1-3 " are of a John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?

              I looked at plenty of pics and boy it's hard to tell if you don't know!

              Thanks,
              Gareth

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14866 From: rcjge Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              Hi Jim:

              Well I have to say you've made me feel a little better in that I couldn't tell them apart.

              Can you say if there is a way to distinguish them?

              Theoretically I could build a PRR H-9 Consolie and an E-6? What if any distinctions are there between the JE and the PL running gear for the Consolie's?

              I infer from what you wrote I could put JE OR PL/Bowser 2-8-0 Consolie running gear under one. I'll save the other to make a PL Atlantic.

              Thanks as always,
              Gareth



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gareth,
              >
              > Hope I can answer this. First a lot of people might not know John English had produced a three piece kit ( boiler / cab casting No. 1011, frame casting No. 1021, and Cylinder Casting No. 1031 ) for a PRR Consolidation. The boiler /cab design was bought out by Penn Line and became the basis for their Consolidation. This same boiler / cab was also used for the Penn Line Atlantic.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: rcjge
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:51 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              >
              >
              >
              > Hey Gentlemen:
              >
              > Can someone tell me if the boiler/cab pics I have in my Vimy Locomotive Works Photo album ("je or pl 1-3 " are of a John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              >
              > I looked at plenty of pics and boy it's hard to tell if you don't know!
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14867 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: some "Beast" progress
                    Pictures will show some progress on my odd 4-4-4-2 modified Mantua engine.  First and Second pictures will show all the undercarriage parts painted. I held off painting the tender body till the boiler is done and will paint both at the same time.
               
                   3 & 4 show the extended walkways and steps that  go out over the steps of the articulated pilot.
               
                    There was a fifth picture of the keystone like shapes I am creating that are needed to match the detail of the sides of the sand dome already there for when adding a second sand dome . It has magically disappeared.
               
                                                                                                   Jim H
               
                  
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14868 From: ron plyler Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              This is Penn Line/Bowser.

              --- On Sat, 8/14/10, rcjge <jgpedwards@...> wrote:

              From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:51 PM

               
              Hey Gentlemen:

              Can someone tell me if the boiler/cab pics I have in my Vimy Locomotive Works Photo album ("je or pl 1-3 " are of a John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?

              I looked at plenty of pics and boy it's hard to tell if you don't know!

              Thanks,
              Gareth


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14869 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              Gareth,
               
                  I can't say anything about Bowser models copied from Penn Line engines. I don't collect Bowser ( Lew English / Montoursville Bowser. To new for my collection.) who made some changes. I think mostly to the frames and changing cast on detail to separate parts 
               
                  I have found no distinguishing marks to tell an original John English boiler / cab from the Penn Line. Other then having the John English O/B and paperwork and being originally told years ago by Jim Lenahan / Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicons of it's existence I would never had know about the JE product.
               
                  Do you know  JE produced a PRR tender that was bought out by PL and became their most used style tender ?
               
                 Theoretically you can use the boiler / cab for the Consolidation or the Atlantic. However you have to watch what cylinder ( steam chest to me ) and walkways aside the boiler goes with what.
               
                                                                  Jim H
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:09 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?

               

              Hi Jim:

              Well I have to say you've made me feel a little better in that I couldn't tell them apart.

              Can you say if there is a way to distinguish them?

              Theoretically I could build a PRR H-9 Consolie and an E-6? What if any distinctions are there between the JE and the PL running gear for the Consolie's?

              I infer from what you wrote I could put JE OR PL/Bowser 2-8-0 Consolie running gear under one. I'll save the other to make a PL Atlantic.

              Thanks as always,
              Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gareth,
              >
              > Hope I can answer this. First a lot of people might not know John English had produced a three piece kit ( boiler / cab casting No. 1011, frame casting No. 1021, and Cylinder Casting No. 1031 ) for a PRR Consolidation. The boiler /cab design was bought out by Penn Line and became the basis for their Consolidation. This same boiler / cab was also used for the Penn Line Atlantic.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: rcjge
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:51 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              >
              >
              >
              > Hey Gentlemen:
              >
              > Can someone tell me if the boiler/cab pics I have in my Vimy Locomotive Works Photo album ("je or pl 1-3 " are of a John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              >
              > I looked at plenty of pics and boy it's hard to tell if you don't know!
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14870 From: jim heckard Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Penn Line, Bowser OR John English ?
              Ron P,
               
                        With all respect to you opinion, and yes it could be Penn Line or Bowser, it's possible it might be a John English Consolidation body which actually came first ?
               
                  I have sent pictures of the  English 3 piece casting set including the boiler / cab casting plus box and paperwork on how to use these castings to construct a PRR Consolidation that was later sold to Penn Line and became the basis for their Consolidation ?
               
                 Since Gareth only showed a boiler casting it could be any one.
               
                                                                  Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14871 From: gary pardue Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Jim's "beast"
              Jim,
              I too am very much enjoying your saga and progress. Just a thought about the boiler band. Unless you want to stay away from plastic, why not use styrene of the right thinkness and soften it in hot water and bend it around the boiler? It should cool quickley and retain its shape. Any small gaps could be filled with glazing putty. Seems like a quick fix to me.
              Gary Pardue
              --- On Sat, 8/14/10, jerrygart5 <jerryg@...> wrote:

              > From: jerrygart5 <jerryg@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Jim's "beast"
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:23 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >I, for one, find your "Beast" project very
              > interesting and admire your perseverance to end up with a
              > unique, functional kitbashed locomotive. Keep the posts
              > coming-if someone does not like them, then they can just
              > skip over. But I'm guessing there are a lot of us who
              > enjoy seeing a craftsman at work!!
              >
              > Cheers!! Jerry Garteiser
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14872 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: some "Beast" progress
              It's looking great Jim.  If you add piping, a set of steam exhaust pipes would look good running from the top of the rear cylinders under the running boards to the area beside the smoke stack and ending them there below the running boards.  Attach them to the boiler only and ending at the top of the rear cylinders but not attaching them to the cylinders so that the rear engine can be removed without difficulty.  Add a single steam exhaust pipe for the front cylinders in the center of the steam chest and running back under the front of the boiler, ending below the boiler under the smoke stack but not attached to the boiler, again for ease of dis-assembly.  All of these could be made from plastic sprues from hobby kits, cut, filed, heated and bent to shape.
              If you have any old brass Atlas HO switches, they used to come with brass strips designed to use for extra contacts for power conductivity...  These might do well for making boiler bands.  Just cut the wire attachment pieces off and shape the curve into the band.  If not long enough they could be spliced and the splice covered with putty and smoothed.  The keystone shaped pieces are sanding valve details for the sides of the sand domes where the sand pipes attach to the domes.

              Don Staton in VA.
              =============================================================================================
              On 8/14/2010 7:22 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

                    Pictures will show some progress on my odd 4-4-4-2 modified Mantua engine.  First and Second pictures will show all the undercarriage parts painted. I held off painting the tender body till the boiler is done and will paint both at the same time.
               
                   3 & 4 show the extended walkways and steps that  go out over the steps of the articulated pilot.
               
                    There was a fifth picture of the keystone like shapes I am creating that are needed to match the detail of the sides of the sand dome already there for when adding a second sand dome . It has magically disappeared.
               
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14873 From: Jim Waterman Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Anyone ever hear of a cast brass EP-4 by Andeco?
              This is likely a Schrader locomotive. Andeco made mechanisms for a bunch of locomotives, including my father's PRR electrics (Trackside Specialties).
               
              They also made a bronze shelled GG1, similar mechanism. We used to have one with George Stock handpainted lettering and stripes in PRR Green.
               
              Jim Waterman
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14874 From: jbark76 Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              I have posted a photo of the front of the John English boiler in the jbark76 photo section. Note the absence of the PL in the oval. I'm not sure if I can dig up a Bowser boiler, but the Penn Line boilers have an oval with PL in it.
              As far as the tender goes, I have to go from memory which is getting more dangerous for me. I no longer have it, but I remember the John English tender was similar to the shorter Penn Line PRR tender except that the side was higher around the coal bunker. I know I scanned it before I traded it, but I'm not sure where the scan is right now.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14875 From: trainliker Date: 8/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
              I can provide an update on this since I bought it.

              I had sent an ebay message to the seller asking if it was really metal or actually plastic. I got no answer so decided to just forget it.

              Then, in checking my ebay messages, it appeared my message had never been sent to him. (Odd since I always send a copy to myself and I did receive that.)

              There was almost no time left for bidding so I bid.

              I then sent a message saying that if it wasn't really all metal, not to send it and refund. He agreed and said that the power unit was so heavy that he thought it was all metal. Virtually nothing else he was selling was trains, so I think he was honestly ignorant.

              In the end, I decided the value was good enough for the power unit told him to just go ahead and ship it.

              I thought maybe it might have had the Kemtron power unit (I had one once) but it has a Varney power unit marked 2572 (the Aerotrain's main number I think). Assembly of shell to power unit was by some pretty ham handed gluing on this specimen. But it sure seems heavier than what I remember with the kemtron unit.

              The Varney book shows this was included in some sets and sold as a powering upgrade.

              Anybody have a data sheet for this power unit? I tried hoseeker and couldn't find anything.

              Chuck Kinzer

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi All!!
              >
              > Is anyone else plannng on bidding on this because i know I was... I wanted to
              > see this metal version for myself.
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, August 5, 2010 7:25:07 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
              >
              >  
              > Jim, To the best of my knowledge, Varney never made anything BUT PLASTIC
              > Aerotrain engine and coach bodies. I know I can safely bet a Yellowstone
              > that there were never any metal bodied Aerotrain pieces. He his both, all wet
              > and has mislabled the item. Perhaps with its metalic silver color and the
              > added heft of it with the frame and motor, he is mistaking it for metal --
              > just to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's good he's not starting this
              > off at $10,000 or we might assume he's trying to rip off the public. Ray
              > F.W. </HTML>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14876 From: Chris B Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
              I don't know much about the varney aerotrain itself, but speaking about aerotrain drives; I do have a pretty fair stack of Hobbytown drives, but one I saw once at Timonium, didn't buy, and have never seen a unit or any ref since was a Hobbytown drive kit labeled as for the varney aerotrain.
              Anyone have or even know of this drive?
              From: "trainliker" <ckinzer@...>
              Sender: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:08:44 -0000
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?

               

              I can provide an update on this since I bought it.

              I had sent an ebay message to the seller asking if it was really metal or actually plastic. I got no answer so decided to just forget it.

              Then, in checking my ebay messages, it appeared my message had never been sent to him. (Odd since I always send a copy to myself and I did receive that.)

              There was almost no time left for bidding so I bid.

              I then sent a message saying that if it wasn't really all metal, not to send it and refund. He agreed and said that the power unit was so heavy that he thought it was all metal. Virtually nothing else he was selling was trains, so I think he was honestly ignorant.

              In the end, I decided the value was good enough for the power unit told him to just go ahead and ship it.

              I thought maybe it might have had the Kemtron power unit (I had one once) but it has a Varney power unit marked 2572 (the Aerotrain's main number I think). Assembly of shell to power unit was by some pretty ham handed gluing on this specimen. But it sure seems heavier than what I remember with the kemtron unit.

              The Varney book shows this was included in some sets and sold as a powering upgrade.

              Anybody have a data sheet for this power unit? I tried hoseeker and couldn't find anything.

              Chuck Kinzer

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi All!!
              >
              > Is anyone else plannng on bidding on this because i know I was... I wanted to
              > see this metal version for myself.
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >________________________________
              > From: "erieberk@..." <erieberk@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, August 5, 2010 7:25:07 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Ebay Varney METAL Aero Train ?
              >
              >  
              > Jim, To the best of my knowledge, Varney never made anything BUT PLASTIC
              > Aerotrain engine and coach bodies. I know I can safely bet a Yellowstone
              > that there were never any metal bodied Aerotrain pieces. He his both, all wet
              > and has mislabled the item. Perhaps with its metalic silver color and the
              > added heft of it with the frame and motor, he is mistaking it for metal --
              > just to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's good he's not starting this
              > off at $10,000 or we might assume he's trying to rip off the public. Ray
              > F.W. </HTML>
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14877 From: rcjge Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              Greetings jbark:

              Sorry about the salutation don't know you're first name there's no signature on your posting.

              I looked at the English boiler pic in your folder. Where would this "oval" be or not be with or w/o the PL?

              Appreciate your efforts btw.

              All you Gents are a great help and thanks.

              -Gareth Edwards


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jbark76" <jbark76@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have posted a photo of the front of the John English boiler in the jbark76 photo section. Note the absence of the PL in the oval. I'm not sure if I can dig up a Bowser boiler, but the Penn Line boilers have an oval with PL in it.
              > As far as the tender goes, I have to go from memory which is getting more dangerous for me. I no longer have it, but I remember the John English tender was similar to the shorter Penn Line PRR tender except that the side was higher around the coal bunker. I know I scanned it before I traded it, but I'm not sure where the scan is right now.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14878 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
                 jbark76, Gareth,
               
                      You mention about memory and I was at a loss too. I forgot something as simple as the PL being in the little oval above the cylinders on the side of the boiler. I was trying to answer a few questions posed and in response to one of Gareth's questions, about any significant way to tell a JE and PL Consolidation boiler apart, I "forgot" this detail.  Thanks for shaking out the cobwebs.  20 lashes with a wet noodle.
               
                  As for the John English tender that became Penn Line I will post some pictures of it. You can also go to the Gallery section of hoseeker and bring up the John English section where pictures are available
               
                                                                      Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jbark76
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:11 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?

               

              I have posted a photo of the front of the John English boiler in the jbark76 photo section. Note the absence of the PL in the oval. I'm not sure if I can dig up a Bowser boiler, but the Penn Line boilers have an oval with PL in it.
              As far as the tender goes, I have to go from memory which is getting more dangerous for me. I no longer have it, but I remember the John English tender was similar to the shorter Penn Line PRR tender except that the side was higher around the coal bunker. I know I scanned it before I traded it, but I'm not sure where the scan is right now.

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14879 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: JE Tender sold to PL
                       Pictures of the original John English tender sold to Penn Line. I have to believe that the tender trucks on it, which are "soldered" together, were made by JE too because the plan sheet shows trucks.  Last picture is of a JE Consolidation that was being assembled using other parts as the directions / plans told you starting with their 3 piece casting kit.
               
                                                                                    Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14880 From: rcjge Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              Hey Guys:

              Where exactly would the "PL" and oval be. I'm not very certain of my steam terminology and besides people use interchangeable terms. I assume the cylinders are the wheel level piston housings? So the PL should be just above that on the boiler?

              Can I assume that if there is no PL then I have a JE H-9 boiler/cab? Or is it possible it's a Bowser?

              -Gareth



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > jbark76, Gareth,
              >
              > You mention about memory and I was at a loss too. I forgot something as simple as the PL being in the little oval above the cylinders on the side of the boiler. I was trying to answer a few questions posed and in response to one of Gareth's questions, about any significant way to tell a JE and PL Consolidation boiler apart, I "forgot" this detail. Thanks for shaking out the cobwebs. 20 lashes with a wet noodle.
              >
              > As for the John English tender that became Penn Line I will post some pictures of it. You can also go to the Gallery section of hoseeker and bring up the John English section where pictures are available
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: jbark76
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:11 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: John English 2-8-0 or Penn Line 4-4-2?
              >
              >
              >
              > I have posted a photo of the front of the John English boiler in the jbark76 photo section. Note the absence of the PL in the oval. I'm not sure if I can dig up a Bowser boiler, but the Penn Line boilers have an oval with PL in it.
              > As far as the tender goes, I have to go from memory which is getting more dangerous for me. I no longer have it, but I remember the John English tender was similar to the shorter Penn Line PRR tender except that the side was higher around the coal bunker. I know I scanned it before I traded it, but I'm not sure where the scan is right now.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14881 From: Nelson B Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: "Unpainting"
              I'd be careful with any citrus solvents around plastics as well. I have a citrus based degreaser for my bike that attacks styrene pretty well.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Glenn476" <glenn476@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:46 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] "Unpainting"
              >
              >
              > A "Holy Grail" of this site seems to be finding a way to get old paint off a
              > model without dissolving the model itself.
              >
              > I was browsing the weekly ad from the local Ace Hardware store--they have
              > several things this week that look like they might be promising:
              > Motsenbocker Lift Off #4 Spray paint and graffiti remover,
              > Motsenbocker Lift Off #5 Latex paint remover,
              > De-Solv-It Contractors' Solvent,
              > De-Solv-It Citrus cleaner solution
              >
              > I have not tried any of these, but the descriptions sound like one or more
              > might fall into the category of a useful and safe paint remover.
              >
              > If there's any plastic parts, stay away from solvents. No. 4 sounds safest,
              > but will probably be the least effective.
              >
              > If it's a brass or zamac model with no plastic parts I use plain old lacquer
              > thinner. If it was painted with Testor's "pla" enamel, mineral spirits work
              > well without harming the plastic (I cleaned the "chrome" someone painted on
              > some 1:25 promo cars back when I was in that hobby and they came out looking
              > factory fresh).
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14882 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: PL in oval
              Gareth,
               
               
                  Hope these pictures help you locate the little PL in an oval on the side of Penn Line steam engines. The item shown is a factory painted and assembled PL Consolidation ( Not Bowser ) out of the original box.
               
                      Again I'm not really up on if or what Bowser had  on the side of their boilers. However I do know that when Lew English / Bowser ( Montoursville )  purchased parts of Penn Line's products at the auction there was a lot of already made stock items. These would be boilers with the little PL in the oval  and tender bodies with raised Penn Line across the back above the coupler. I'm sure some of them got sold under the Bowser name but if and when Lew English / Bowser made any other change I have no idea. ( The same would have been possible of Consolidation boilers going from JE to PL ) 
               
                   These transitional pieces using up old stock , and not just John English to Penn Line to Bowser, make being definite on some facts concerning vintage HO hard.
               
                                                                                  Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14883 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Band for Mantua beast

              Jim,

              Could you use .010 styrene?  It flexes quite a bit at that thickness.

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:55 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

               

               

              Glenn,

               

                 I agree that cutting 0.006" brass would be easiest if I was cutting all new bands. The problem is that the bands cast on the Mantua boiler are fairly pronounced / deeper and how would something 0.006" thick match. While I don't no how thick the bands on the Mantua boiler are to make it look right I would have to use something as thick.

               

                                                               Jim H

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: Glenn476

              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:44 PM

              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

               

               

              For boiler bands I was using only .006" brass for O Scale locos--this will cut OK with an office-type paper cutter and not curl too badly. 

               

              for piping, Detail Associates has a line of brass wire sized to be tight for different pipe sizes--keeping in mind that pipe is described by the inside diameter--the DA wire has labels that relate the scale size of the wire to the inside diameter it is to represent   example--3/4" pipe is actually a bit over an inch in outside diameter.    gj

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: jim heckard

              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:07 AM

              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

               

              Ray F W ,

               

                  I just remembered someone needed it and thought $ 7.50 for a possible new pre war motor was cheap. I didn't want to go searching through all the messages to find a name. Thanks for remembering.

               

                 About the boiler band. Every time I cut any brass I have in such a small width ( I don't have the luxury of much stock ) it curls badly and when straightened out still a little out of shape. Dan Bush of Yardbird trains has a shear that he can cut any length all at once, and lessen distortion. He is cutting some pieces for me and for something else. This will help.

               

                 As for the piping I am in the " how far should I go stage". This project has kind of ballooned from what I started to do. As the project moves along and seems to be coming out pretty good I keep doing more. Since there is no engine like this to copy from do I have limited or full prototype piping. Limited as how Mantua boilers came originally. Prototype as what would most steam engines have.

               

                I now have added a walkway across the air compressors of the pilot in front of the boiler front / smoke door since I mounted the headlight low and am in the process of increasing the length of the walkways over the pilot steps. I have a second Mantua sand dome coming that is not an exact match to the one on the Mantua Pacific boiler. I am creating pieces of plastic to match the keystone like shapes ( again not sure what this detail is called)  that are aside and below the Mantua sand dome. If this all comes out good I will probably go further with piping then I originally planned.

               

                I thank you for the offer for the Varney Yellowstone piping but I have it.. I have been using a Pacific piping diagram as a kind of reference. I just painted all the undercarriage for the engine and tender ( frames, drivers, trucks, etc ). I didn't do the tender body yet until I get the cab / boiler done. Want to paint both at the same time just in case of a shading difference.

               

                 I hesitate to keep sending pictures of the progress . I don't want to "hog" the site and I'm sure some might be bored hearing about the project. I do thank you for your offers, assistance and knowledge.

               

                                                                                               Jim H

                 

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: erieberk@...

              Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:57 AM

              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] DON HUDDLESTON -- Varney V-1 motor

               

               

              Hi Jim, Yeah, that was Don Huddleston who needed a Varney V-1 as his was
              received in pieces due to zamac rot. As you noticed, I put his name in caps
              in the Subject line to draw his attention to this..

              Also, I noticed that you're stuck on how to proceed with piping on your
              "Beast." Also not having luck on installing a boiler band. For the band, I'd
              recommend cutting a length of 3/32" wide soft sheet brass, probably around
              0.012" thick. I know you have a Varney Yellowstone, but if you'd like me to
              send you the plans for the Yellowstone -- showing all the piping
              installation, and what to use for it -- I'd be happy to send you copies if you think
              they'd help. Ray F.W.</HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14884 From: jbark76 Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: JE Tender sold to PL
              Jim,

              I'm glad you were able to post a photo of the tender. It is, as I remembered, not straight across the top as the Penn Line/Bowser tender is. I'm not aware of any other differences.

              Jeff Barker
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14885 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              Attachments :
               
                     Getting close to the finish for me. Minor things to do. Add boiler piping ? / handrails, second sand dome with detail to match the other one / extra boiler strap, put down piece on front of the walkway / step extensions, handrails back of cab, whistle / bell / jewels for lights front and back ( to lazy for wiring ), add motor, paint engine boiler-tender body and bolt together.    RUN
               
                                                                                               Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14886 From: gary pardue Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble [1 Attachment]
              Jim,
              That is going to be one nice engine when you are finished. I really have enjoyed your postings. One question.... is that brass rail I see in your photos? If it is, you are surely a die hard "Vintage" modeler!
              Gary Pardue

              --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble [1 Attachment]
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 2:16 PM

               
               
                     Getting close to the finish for me. Minor things to do. Add boiler piping ? / handrails, second sand dome with detail to match the other one / extra boiler strap, put down piece on front of the walkway / step extensions, handrails back of cab, whistle / bell / jewels for lights front and back ( to lazy for wiring ), add motor, paint engine boiler-tender body and bolt together.    RUN
               
                                                                                               Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14887 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              
              Gary,
               
                  Yes it is brass rail. I have three different sizes and use it for handrail and up to some piping. One of the few things I have a little of in stock .  Thanks, glad you like the engine. As it comes along I feel a lot better about buying it.
               
                                                                      Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 2:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble

               

              Jim,
              That is going to be one nice engine when you are finished. I really have enjoyed your postings. One question.... is that brass rail I see in your photos? If it is, you are surely a die hard "Vintage" modeler!
              Gary Pardue

              --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble [1 Attachment]
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 2:16 PM

               
               
                     Getting close to the finish for me. Minor things to do. Add boiler piping ? / handrails, second sand dome with detail to match the other one / extra boiler strap, put down piece on front of the walkway / step extensions, handrails back of cab, whistle / bell / jewels for lights front and back ( to lazy for wiring ), add motor, paint engine boiler-tender body and bolt together.    RUN
               
                                                                                               Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14888 From: gary pardue Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              Jim,
              I believe you "misundertook" my question. I was referring to the brass railroad track and not brass rod.
              Gary

              --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 4:24 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > 
              >
              >
              > Gary,
              >  
              >     Yes it
              > is brass rail. I have
              > three different sizes and use it for handrail and up to
              > some piping. One of the
              > few things I have a little of in stock .  Thanks, glad
              > you like the engine.
              > As it comes along I feel a lot better about buying
              > it.
              >  
              >                                                         Jim
              >
              > H
              >
              > ----- Original Message
              > -----
              > From:
              > gary
              > pardue
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Sent: Sunday, August
              > 15, 2010 2:42
              > PM
              > Subject: Re:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast:
              > Almost ready to rumble
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim,
              > That is going to be one nice engine when you
              > are finished. I really
              > have enjoyed your postings. One question.... is
              > that brass rail I see in
              > your photos? If it is, you are surely a die hard
              > "Vintage"
              > modeler!
              > Gary Pardue
              >
              > --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              >
              > wrote:
              >
              >
              > From:
              > jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble [1
              > Attachment]
              > To:
              > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 2:16
              > PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >       
              > Getting close to the finish for me. Minor things
              > to do. Add boiler
              > piping ? / handrails, second sand dome with
              > detail to match the
              > other one / extra boiler strap, put down piece on
              > front of the
              > walkway / step extensions, handrails back of cab,
              > whistle / bell /
              > jewels for lights front and back ( to
              > lazy for wiring ), add
              > motor, paint engine boiler-tender body and bolt
              > together.    RUN
              >  
              >                                                                                 
              >
              > Jim
              >
              > H
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14889 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              
              Yes I misunderstood but you are still right that my test track and even my new layout started  last year is brass.
               
               
               
                                                Jim
               
                                                     
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 4:58 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble

               

              Jim,
              I believe you "misundertook" my question. I was referring to the brass railroad track and not brass rod.
              Gary

              --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 4:24 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > 
              >
              >
              > Gary,
              >  
              >     Yes it
              > is brass rail. I have
              > three different sizes and use it for handrail and up to
              > some piping. One of the
              > few things I have a little of in stock .  Thanks, glad
              > you like the engine.
              > As it comes along I feel a lot better about buying
              > it.
              >  
              >                                                         Jim
              >
              > H
              >
              > ----- Original Message
              > -----
              > From:
              > gary
              > pardue
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Sent: Sunday, August
              > 15, 2010 2:42
              > PM
              > Subject: Re:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast:
              > Almost ready to rumble
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim,
              > That is going to be one nice engine when you
              > are finished. I really
              > have enjoyed your postings. One question.... is
              > that brass rail I see in
              > your photos? If it is, you are surely a die hard
              > "Vintage"
              > modeler!
              > Gary Pardue
              >
              > --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              >
              > wrote:
              >
              >
              > From:
              > jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble [1
              > Attachment]
              > To:
              > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 2:16
              > PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >       
              > Getting close to the finish for me. Minor things
              > to do. Add boiler
              > piping ? / handrails, second sand dome with
              > detail to match the
              > other one / extra boiler strap, put down piece on
              > front of the
              > walkway / step extensions, handrails back of cab,
              > whistle / bell /
              > jewels for lights front and back ( to
              > lazy for wiring ), add
              > motor, paint engine boiler-tender body and bolt
              > together.    RUN
              >  
              >                                                                                 
              >
              > Jim
              >
              > H
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14890 From: gary pardue Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              Jim,
              Might I ask why brass? I used brass on my first layout 30 yers ago and it was a dog to keep clean. I am getting ready to build another layout after all these years and have switched to NS from all the attributes I have read about it. I am just curious.
              Gary

              --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 6:18 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > 
              >
              >
              > Yes I misunderstood
              > but you are still right
              > that my test track and even my new layout started
              >  last year is
              > brass.
              >  
              >  
              >  
              >                                  
              >
              > Jim
              >  
              >                                        
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message
              > -----
              > From:
              > gary
              > pardue
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Sent: Sunday, August
              > 15, 2010 4:58
              > PM
              > Subject: Re:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast:
              > Almost ready to rumble
              >
              >  
              >
              > Jim,
              > I believe you "misundertook" my question. I was
              > referring to the
              > brass railroad track and not brass rod.
              > Gary
              >
              > --- On Sun, 8/15/10,
              > jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              >
              > wrote:
              >
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > > Subject: Re:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 4:24 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > >
              > >
              >
              > > Gary,
              > >  
              > >     Yes it
              > > is
              > brass rail. I have
              > > three different sizes and use it for handrail and
              > up to
              > > some piping. One of the
              > > few things I have a little of
              > in stock .  Thanks, glad
              > > you like the engine.
              > > As it
              > comes along I feel a lot better about buying
              > > it.
              > >
              >  
              > >
              >
              >                                                         Jim
              > >
              >
              > > H
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message
              > > -----
              > >
              > From:
              > > gary
              > > pardue
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              >
              > > Sent: Sunday, August
              > > 15, 2010 2:42
              > > PM
              > >
              > Subject: Re:
              > > [vintageHO] The Beast:
              > > Almost ready to
              > rumble
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > > Jim,
              > > That is going to be one nice engine when
              > you
              > > are finished. I really
              > > have enjoyed your postings. One
              > question.... is
              > > that brass rail I see in
              > > your photos? If it
              > is, you are surely a die hard
              > > "Vintage"
              > > modeler!
              > > Gary
              > Pardue
              > >
              > > --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > >
              > >
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From:
              > > jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > > Subject:
              >
              > > [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble [1
              > >
              > Attachment]
              > > To:
              > > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 2:16
              > > PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >  
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >       
              > > Getting close to the finish for
              > me. Minor things
              > > to do. Add boiler
              > > piping ? / handrails,
              > second sand dome with
              > > detail to match the
              > > other one / extra
              > boiler strap, put down piece on
              > > front of the
              > > walkway /
              > step extensions, handrails back of cab,
              > > whistle / bell /
              > >
              > jewels for lights front and back ( to
              > > lazy for wiring ), add
              >
              > > motor, paint engine boiler-tender body and bolt
              > >
              > together.    RUN
              > >  
              > >
              >
              >                                                                                 
              > >
              >
              > > Jim
              > >
              > > H
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14891 From: jim heckard Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              
              Gary,
               
                   While I'm sure others will feel differently I will tell you why I have used brass before and on my new layout that is a year old.
               
                    My other layout was a four track (could run 4 trains at a time) 10'X11" layout that I had for 25+years in my old house. It was all brass track. It was in a dry attic.  When it was run a lot I never had much trouble with it. When there was time between I might need a wipe of liquid cleaner around. A dab of Wahl's clipper oil and I never had the trouble I hear others have. 
               
                   I honestly believe there are things about Nickel Silver track that might make it superior but I think the HO industry sold people on it more then there really is.
               
                   My new layout is in the basement of a six year old home. I used brass track because I had a lot of it lying around and I am cheap. Didn't want to buy all new NS.  Why buy new stuff when you have brass and never really had a problem. My new layout is in operation, as far as running trains, with very little up keep. Would you believe  a 20" x 10" layout that is all sectional track ( all those joints and none soldered ) and no 3' pieces of flex track either. The layout was started more to have a test circle of track for when I worked on engines for my vintage collection instead of just a straight test track. Running curves shows problems you wouldn't see otherwise. Since I have a train room 20' x 30' it was natural to expand the layout.
               
                  When I started the new layout I wanted to make it a retro type layout using trains from times gone by including buildings and such so naturally brass track. Yes I am a dinosaur and stuck in the 60's.
               
                  This is not to start an issue with others who do other things. To each his own. I'm happy with my brass track.
               
                                                       Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 8:35 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble

               

              Jim,
              Might I ask why brass? I used brass on my first layout 30 yers ago and it was a dog to keep clean. I am getting ready to build another layout after all these years and have switched to NS from all the attributes I have read about it. I am just curious.
              Gary

              --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 6:18 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > 
              >
              >
              > Yes I misunderstood
              > but you are still right
              > that my test track and even my new layout started
              >  last year is
              > brass.
              >  
              >  
              >  
              >                                  
              >
              > Jim
              >  
              >                                        
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message
              > -----
              > From:
              > gary
              > pardue
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Sent: Sunday, August
              > 15, 2010 4:58
              > PM
              > Subject: Re:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast:
              > Almost ready to rumble
              >
              >  
              >
              > Jim,
              > I believe you "misundertook" my question. I was
              > referring to the
              > brass railroad track and not brass rod.
              > Gary
              >
              > --- On Sun, 8/15/10,
              > jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              >
              > wrote:
              >
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > > Subject: Re:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 4:24 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > >
              > >
              >
              > > Gary,
              > >  
              > >     Yes it
              > > is
              > brass rail. I have
              > > three different sizes and use it for handrail and
              > up to
              > > some piping. One of the
              > > few things I have a little of
              > in stock .  Thanks, glad
              > > you like the engine.
              > > As it
              > comes along I feel a lot better about buying
              > > it.
              > >
              >  
              > >
              >
              >                                                         Jim
              > >
              >
              > > H
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message
              > > -----
              > >
              > From:
              > > gary
              > > pardue
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              >
              > > Sent: Sunday, August
              > > 15, 2010 2:42
              > > PM
              > >
              > Subject: Re:
              > > [vintageHO] The Beast:
              > > Almost ready to
              > rumble
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > > Jim,
              > > That is going to be one nice engine when
              > you
              > > are finished. I really
              > > have enjoyed your postings. One
              > question.... is
              > > that brass rail I see in
              > > your photos? If it
              > is, you are surely a die hard
              > > "Vintage"
              > > modeler!
              > > Gary
              > Pardue
              > >
              > > --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > >
              > >
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From:
              > > jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > > Subject:
              >
              > > [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble [1
              > >
              > Attachment]
              > > To:
              > > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 2:16
              > > PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >  
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >       
              > > Getting close to the finish for
              > me. Minor things
              > > to do. Add boiler
              > > piping ? / handrails,
              > second sand dome with
              > > detail to match the
              > > other one / extra
              > boiler strap, put down piece on
              > > front of the
              > > walkway /
              > step extensions, handrails back of cab,
              > > whistle / bell /
              > >
              > jewels for lights front and back ( to
              > > lazy for wiring ), add
              >
              > > motor, paint engine boiler-tender body and bolt
              > >
              > together.    RUN
              > >  
              > >
              >
              >                                                                                 
              > >
              >
              > > Jim
              > >
              > > H
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14892 From: Nelson B Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              Jim, the beast is shaping up into an awesome looking machine. I'm sure you could recoup your $$ investment and then some were you to sell.

              What did you use as filler where the boilers join? Was it the metalized epoxy that was being discussed? The profile of the boiler looks so natural now that I never would guess how it started out.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gary,
              >
              > Yes it is brass rail. I have three different sizes and use it for handrail and up to some piping. One of the few things I have a little of in stock . Thanks, glad you like the engine. As it comes along I feel a lot better about buying it.
              >
              > Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14893 From: Randolph Torres Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Freight cars for sale unbuilt, some plastic most wood.
              PENNSYLVANIA RR Bulkhead Flat* QC Models unbuilt wood $12.99

              70' MO PAC Express Reefer QC Models unbuilt wood $8.99

              60' C.B&Q. Plug Door Boxcar Gloor Craft unbuilt wood $8.99

              85' TRAILER TRAIN Piggy Back* QC Models unbuilt wood $8.99

              Pulman Standard Full Door Box Ambroid unbuilt wood $8.99

              ACF 70Ton Covered Hopper E&B Valley unbuilt plastic $4.99

              SOUTHERN 60' Boxcar QC Models unbuilt wood $8.99

              70' "Hellow Dolly" Box Car QC Models unbuilt wood $8.99

              UNION PACIFIC Bulkhead Flat* QC Models unbuilt wood $12.99

              B&O Cushion Coil Cat Ambroid unbuilt wood $8.99

              UNICEL REEFER Ambroid unbuilt wood $8.99

              PENCILVANIA R.R Hy Cube Box QC Models unbuilt wood $8.99

              PEN CENTRAL 86' 8Door Hy Cube QC Models unbuilt wood $8.99

              PENCILVANIA R.R Hy Cube Box QC Models unbuilt wood $8.99

              PENCILVANIA R.R Hy Cube Box QC Models unbuilt wood $8.99

              50th Ann Milw Composit Gondola
              & N&W H..* Ambroid unbuilt wood $12.99

              40' PRR Automobile Box Car QC Models unbuilt wood $8.99

              Golden Loaf Flour Airslide Ambroid unbuilt wood $8.99

              Early 40' Steel Flat Wood Gon Tichy unbuilt plastic $8.99

              52' War Emergency Gondola Tichy unbuilt plastic $8.99

              Soo Line Side Door Caboose LaBelle unbuilt wood $10.99

              NYO&W Milk Car Ambroid unbuilt wood $8.99

              Western Union Material Car Ambroid unbuilt wood $8.99

              Riverside Insulated Oil Tank Ambroid unbuilt wood $8.99

              Illinois Terminal B/W Caboose LaserKit unbuilt wood $30.00

              D&H 41' steel gondola Accurail unbuilt plastic $6.00

              SCL Stump Car Tichy unbuilt plastic $9.00

              Colorado Mid.Hanrahan Reefer Car LaBelle unbuilt wood $10.95

              Open Platform Passenger Coach Ambroid unbuilt wood $10.95

              Tank Car 60" Dome ICC class 103 Tichy unbuilt plastic $9.00

              D&H 41' steel gondola Accurail unbuilt plastic $6.00

              Steam Wrecking Crane 120T Tichy unbuilt plastic $20.00

              Open Platform Combination Car Ambroid unbuilt wood $10.95

              Boom Car Tichy unbuilt plastic $8.99

              Cars marked with * are double kits make 2 cars.
              Contact me off list ar rmtorres.7901@... to order or questions
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14894 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 8/15/2010
              Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              
              Nickel-silver is better in every way, I think, except price.  And perhaps not better in nostalgia since so many of us originally had atlas brass snap track and the like.
               
              However, it has been around awhile.
               
              I can provide a little interesting "Vintage" information about nickel silver rail.
               
              In the PFM loose leaf catalog sheets (1954 - their original "catalog"), and in the 1st edition printed PFM catalog (1955), they are touting nickel silver rail.  I suspect  the loose leaf one meant to say "...less arcing and wheel pitting..." and not "...loss arcing and wheel pitting..."
               
              And notice the mention of the code 90 from England.
               
              Both exclaim "THE WORLD'S MOST FAMOUS MODEL RAILROAD USES NICKEL-SILVER RAIL - THE CHOICE OF EXPERIENCE".
               
              Pop quiz:  What did PFM advertise in their very first advertisement in Model Railroad Magazine?
               
              Answer:  John Allen's Gorre & Daphetid slide sets in a small 1 column inch ad.  December, 1953.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 6:32 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble

               

              

              Gary,
               
                   While I'm sure others will feel differently I will tell you why I have used brass before and on my new layout that is a year old.
               
                    My other layout was a four track (could run 4 trains at a time) 10'X11" layout that I had for 25+years in my old house. It was all brass track. It was in a dry attic.  When it was run a lot I never had much trouble with it. When there was time between I might need a wipe of liquid cleaner around. A dab of Wahl's clipper oil and I never had the trouble I hear others have. 
               
                   I honestly believe there are things about Nickel Silver track that might make it superior but I think the HO industry sold people on it more then there really is.
               
                   My new layout is in the basement of a six year old home. I used brass track because I had a lot of it lying around and I am cheap. Didn't want to buy all new NS.  Why buy new stuff when you have brass and never really had a problem. My new layout is in operation, as far as running trains, with very little up keep. Would you believe  a 20" x 10" layout that is all sectional track ( all those joints and none soldered ) and no 3' pieces of flex track either. The layout was started more to have a test circle of track for when I worked on engines for my vintage collection instead of just a straight test track. Running curves shows problems you wouldn't see otherwise. Since I have a train room 20' x 30' it was natural to expand the layout.
               
                  When I started the new layout I wanted to make it a retro type layout using trains from times gone by including buildings and such so naturally brass track. Yes I am a dinosaur and stuck in the 60's.
               
                  This is not to start an issue with others who do other things. To each his own. I'm happy with my brass track.
               
                                                       Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 8:35 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble

               

              Jim,
              Might I ask why brass? I used brass on my first layout 30 yers ago and it was a dog to keep clean. I am getting ready to build another layout after all these years and have switched to NS from all the attributes I have read about it. I am just curious.
              Gary

              --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 6:18 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > 
              >
              >
              > Yes I misunderstood
              > but you are still right
              > that my test track and even my new layout started
              >  last year is
              > brass.
              >  
              >  
              >  
              >                                  
              >
              > Jim
              >  
              >                                        
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message
              > -----
              > From:
              > gary
              > pardue
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Sent: Sunday, August
              > 15, 2010 4:58
              > PM
              > Subject: Re:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast:
              > Almost ready to rumble
              >
              >  
              >
              > Jim,
              > I believe you "misundertook" my question. I was
              > referring to the
              > brass railroad track and not brass rod.
              > Gary
              >
              > --- On Sun, 8/15/10,
              > jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              >
              > wrote:
              >
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > > Subject: Re:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 4:24 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > >
              > >
              >
              > > Gary,
              > >  
              > >     Yes it
              > > is
              > brass rail. I have
              > > three different sizes and use it for handrail and
              > up to
              > > some piping. One of the
              > > few things I have a little of
              > in stock .  Thanks, glad
              > > you like the engine.
              > > As it
              > comes along I feel a lot better about buying
              > > it.
              > >
              >  
              > >
              >
              >                                                         Jim
              > >
              >
              > > H
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message
              > > -----
              > >
              > From:
              > > gary
              > > pardue
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              >
              > > Sent: Sunday, August
              > > 15, 2010 2:42
              > > PM
              > >
              > Subject: Re:
              > > [vintageHO] The Beast:
              > > Almost ready to
              > rumble
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > > Jim,
              > > That is going to be one nice engine when
              > you
              > > are finished. I really
              > > have enjoyed your postings. One
              > question.... is
              > > that brass rail I see in
              > > your photos? If it
              > is, you are surely a die hard
              > > "Vintage"
              > > modeler!
              > > Gary
              > Pardue
              > >
              > > --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > >
              > >
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From:
              > > jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > > Subject:
              >
              > > [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble [1
              > >
              > Attachment]
              > > To:
              > > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 2:16
              > > PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >  
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >       
              > > Getting close to the finish for
              > me. Minor things
              > > to do. Add boiler
              > > piping ? / handrails,
              > second sand dome with
              > > detail to match the
              > > other one / extra
              > boiler strap, put down piece on
              > > front of the
              > > walkway /
              > step extensions, handrails back of cab,
              > > whistle / bell /
              > >
              > jewels for lights front and back ( to
              > > lazy for wiring ), add
              >
              > > motor, paint engine boiler-tender body and bolt
              > >
              > together.    RUN
              > >  
              > >
              >
              >                                                                                 
              > >
              >
              > > Jim
              > >
              > > H
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14895 From: gary pardue Date: 8/16/2010
              Subject: Re: The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              Jim,
              I believe you "misundertook" my question. I was referring to the brass railroad track and not brass rod.
              Gary

              --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 4:24 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > 
              >
              >
              > Gary,
              >  
              >     Yes it
              > is brass rail. I have
              > three different sizes and use it for handrail and up to
              > some piping. One of the
              > few things I have a little of in stock .  Thanks, glad
              > you like the engine.
              > As it comes along I feel a lot better about buying
              > it.
              >  
              >                                                         Jim
              >
              > H
              >
              > ----- Original Message
              > -----
              > From:
              > gary
              > pardue
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Sent: Sunday, August
              > 15, 2010 2:42
              > PM
              > Subject: Re:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast:
              > Almost ready to rumble
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim,
              > That is going to be one nice engine when you
              > are finished. I really
              > have enjoyed your postings. One question.... is
              > that brass rail I see in
              > your photos? If it is, you are surely a die hard
              > "Vintage"
              > modeler!
              > Gary Pardue
              >
              > --- On Sun, 8/15/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              >
              > wrote:
              >
              >
              > From:
              > jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject:
              > [vintageHO] The Beast: Almost ready to rumble [1
              > Attachment]
              > To:
              > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 2:16
              > PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >       
              > Getting close to the finish for me. Minor things
              > to do. Add boiler
              > piping ? / handrails, second sand dome with
              > detail to match the
              > other one / extra boiler strap, put down piece on
              > front of the
              > walkway / step extensions, handrails back of cab,
              > whistle / bell /
              > jewels for lights front and back ( to
              > lazy for wiring ), add
              > motor, paint engine boiler-tender body and bolt
              > together.    RUN
              >  
              >                                                                                 
              >
              > Jim
              >
              > H
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14896 From: jim heckard Date: 8/16/2010
              Subject: epoxy used
              Nelson,
               
                   Sorry I forgot to answer a question you asked about the epoxy I used as filler. It is a metalized two part ( black & white in color ) 4 minute setting time. I forget the name as the band came of the tubes ( two in one ).
               
                    I did find out something that is bothering me about it. A spritz of water got on it and seemed to raise that area slightly and needed to be resanded.. Something like after sanding wood you use water to raise the grain to sand it finer. I will have to put a clear sealer in the area before I wash the whole boiler off to paint it just to be sure.
               
               
                                                                        Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14897 From: Nelson B Date: 8/16/2010
              Subject: Re: epoxy used
              That's surprising. Epoxy generally resists solvents, so having water affect it seems strange. It isn't wood glue.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Nelson,
              >
              > Sorry I forgot to answer a question you asked about the epoxy I used as filler. It is a metalized two part ( black & white in color ) 4 minute setting time. I forget the name as the band came of the tubes ( two in one ).
              >
              > I did find out something that is bothering me about it. A spritz of water got on it and seemed to raise that area slightly and needed to be resanded.. Something like after sanding wood you use water to raise the grain to sand it finer. I will have to put a clear sealer in the area before I wash the whole boiler off to paint it just to be sure.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14898 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: epoxy used
              Fast setting epoxy is not to be trusted except as a temporary expedient, not as a reliable cement- the reason why it is a product almost never used in serious settings. My own experience with these these products is that they are often brittle, poorly withstand any shearing stress, and often develop a crystalline almost-flaky consistency. Thick gap-filling ACC is a better product when fast-setting convenience is required, although this product also has inherent problems with shearing stresses.

              Standard slow-setting epoxies, such as the commonly-available Devcon 2-Ton, can make into excellent adherent filler-putties that can be relatively easy to finish- sand. Although the very best epoxy putties by produced by mixing in micro-balloons or ground fibreglass, the average modeler can make do by mixing in fine saw dust.

              Thick ACC with admixed dust can also serve as fillers, BUT when set up, it can be really tough to smooth out in such a manner that after a serious bout of sanding the new filler does not remains proud, while all the normal surfaces around are sanded away.

              Denny

              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Okoboji, Iowa
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14899 From: al45390 Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
              Jim & chuckie208755,

              The photos in the album, "Rebuilding the Beast", are too small. They are thumbnails only. Or am I the only one experiencing this?

              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14900 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
              Walter, All,
               
                     With the help of fellow member and good friend Chuck H we are trying to create an album entitled " Rebuilding the Beast" using attachments that I had sent to show before and after pictures as the rebuilding / emodifing is going on. I am in the process of trying to add some comment / descriptions to the pictures to better explain what they are.
               
                  I admit I am a computer dinosaur and the expert is Chuck. Hopefully he can answer this question later. I can't.
               
                                                                               Jim H
               
               
               
                
               
                
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: al45390
              Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:24 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"

               

              Jim & chuckie208755,

              The photos in the album, "Rebuilding the Beast", are too small. They are thumbnails only. Or am I the only one experiencing this?

              Regards,
              Walter

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14901 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: adding detail to the Beast
              Attachments :
               

               
               
                       I am going to add a second sand dome to my project engine. Since I can't get an exact match to the existing one on the Mantua Pacific boiler, short of trying to cut one out of a second boiler which might be totally impossible, I have to create and add the little keystone like shapes that are aside the bottom of the one on the engine. When the second dome arrives I hope to be able to place the ones I made to match the one already on the boiler.
               
               
                                                                                              Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14902 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: adding detail to the Beast [1 Attachment]
              Jim, when you add the 2nd sand dome you might need to trim/file/grind it down to the same height as the top of the turret in front of the cab and the top of the steam dome...  Unless of course you have day-lighted or raised the tops of all of the tunnels and low clearances on your main lines.

              It is looking good.
              Don Staton in Va.

              ==================================================================================
              On 8/17/2010 11:34 AM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               

               
               
                       I am going to add a second sand dome to my project engine. Since I can't get an exact match to the existing one on the Mantua Pacific boiler, short of trying to cut one out of a second boiler which might be totally impossible, I have to create and add the little keystone like shapes that are aside the bottom of the one on the engine. When the second dome arrives I hope to be able to place the ones I made to match the one already on the boiler.
               
               
                                                                                              Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14903 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: adding detail to the Beast
                 Don S,
               
                 Yes I will have to have it placed at the same height as the turret and steam dome. I have no low cleareance problems on my layout  not because I was real smart but just because I happened to do it that way.
               
                                                            Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 12:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] adding detail to the Beast

               

              Jim, when you add the 2nd sand dome you might need to trim/file/grind it down to the same height as the top of the turret in front of the cab and the top of the steam dome...  Unless of course you have day-lighted or raised the tops of all of the tunnels and low clearances on your main lines.

              It is looking good.
              Don Staton in Va.

              ==================================================================================
              On 8/17/2010 11:34 AM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               

               
               
                       I am going to add a second sand dome to my project engine. Since I can't get an exact match to the existing one on the Mantua Pacific boiler, short of trying to cut one out of a second boiler which might be totally impossible, I have to create and add the little keystone like shapes that are aside the bottom of the one on the engine. When the second dome arrives I hope to be able to place the ones I made to match the one already on the boiler.
               
               
                                                                                              Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14904 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "al45390" <bayerw2@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:24 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the
              Beast"


              > Jim & chuckie208755,
              >
              > The photos in the album, "Rebuilding the Beast", are too small. They are
              > thumbnails only. Or am I the only one experiencing this?
              >
              > Regards,
              > Walter

              Clicking on the thumbnail SHOULD bring up a larger picture.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14905 From: John H Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
              I just checked the size of the photos in the album "Jim Heckards Photos" They are 681X511 pixels in size.

              I use up to 1499x821 pixels with no problems on these albums. However if using color it is likely best to stay around 1000 pixels as the largest dimension for reasons of amount of memory used.

              John Hagen
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14906 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
              Clicking the film strip and the image brought up by clicking the strip are of no avail. It appears that the image is just small, i.e. too few kb. I have gone into 'New Photos' and clicked several photos. Only the 'Building the Beast' photos do not produce the larger images.

              On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
               


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "al45390" <bayerw2@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:24 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the
              Beast"

              > Jim & chuckie208755,
              >
              > The photos in the album, "Rebuilding the Beast", are too small. They are
              > thumbnails only. Or am I the only one experiencing this?
              >
              > Regards,
              > Walter

              Clicking on the thumbnail SHOULD bring up a larger picture.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14907 From: John H Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
              But it doesn't. This indicates that the "Thumbnail" is the actual size of the photo as entered.

              Start with a full sized or larger photo and the use the standard Yahoo upload procedure. Yahoo will automatically make the thumbnail photos, which, when the "large" or "full size" words are clicked, will bring up a bigger photo. Depending on the size uploaded, the large increase something like 4X (just a guess on my part) and the full size will show the photo in the actual size uploaded, which may or may not be bigger than large.

              Point is whatever size photo is uploaded, that is the maximum size that will be displayed.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "al45390" <bayerw2@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:24 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the
              > Beast"
              >
              >
              > > Jim & chuckie208755,
              > >
              > > The photos in the album, "Rebuilding the Beast", are too small. They are
              > > thumbnails only. Or am I the only one experiencing this?
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > > Walter
              >
              > Clicking on the thumbnail SHOULD bring up a larger picture.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14908 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Albums, Photos, Thumbnails, Pixels, Attachments
              Hi All,
               
                        I see discussions going on about pictures I have sent. First off I honestly don't know much about creating albums and so forth. Look at the names of the people doing my albums. You don't see mine. I think everyone was done by other people. Most were done by Lennard Stewert ( and I thank him ) and there was no problem there. I ask for help and people volunteered
               
                  As for attachments, thumbnails and pixels. I have been sending attachments because I don't know how to do the album bit. Not only to this site but elsewhere.  Not one of these attachments could not be opened larger just like the one picture I sent today.( I just tried )  It is thumbnail in size to start but can be opened and viewed in a larger format .I see nothing wrong pixel wise with focus or clarity. Easily viewed. As for what the amount of pixels should be or thumbnail size first sent  ( another album under my name was mentioned ) there was no problem concerning this before.. The attachments were viewed by many and all felt they were good.
               
                  I am a at a loss. There seems to be a problem with this album Rebuilding the Beast. I am glad someone noticed it but I have to wait for Chuck H to come home and see what the problem is. He is a better man at these things then me. We had already run into one problem and corrected that.
               
                  Thanks in advance for your patience.
               
                                                                                     Jim H
               
                  .
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14909 From: Nelson B Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: epoxy used
              I agree with you. I tried fast-setting JB Weld, and it was pretty much useless. ACC and baking soda makes a good filler for defects in resin castings, but is better for internal repairs. It was something I used daily as a model maker.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
              >
              > Fast setting epoxy is not to be trusted except as a temporary expedient, not as a reliable cement- the reason why it is a product almost never used in serious settings. My own experience with these these products is that they are often brittle, poorly withstand any shearing stress, and often develop a crystalline almost-flaky consistency. Thick gap-filling ACC is a better product when fast-setting convenience is required, although this product also has inherent problems with shearing stresses.
              >
              > Standard slow-setting epoxies, such as the commonly-available Devcon 2-Ton, can make into excellent adherent filler-putties that can be relatively easy to finish- sand. Although the very best epoxy putties by produced by mixing in micro-balloons or ground fibreglass, the average modeler can make do by mixing in fine saw dust.
              >
              > Thick ACC with admixed dust can also serve as fillers, BUT when set up, it can be really tough to smooth out in such a manner that after a serious bout of sanding the new filler does not remains proud, while all the normal surfaces around are sanded away.
              >
              > Denny
              >
              > Denny S. Anspach, MD
              > Okoboji, Iowa
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14910 From: John H Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"
              Well my last two posts printed in reverse order making them a tad on the senseless side. Now I will point out my other inane move by not including the size of the photos in the "Rebuilding the Beast" Album, which is 98X72 pixels. Now there is a definite relation between the number of pixels and the resolution being used BUT without changing resolution, increasing the size to something in the 600 pixel area should help a lot.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > I just checked the size of the photos in the album "Jim Heckards Photos" They are 681X511 pixels in size.
              >
              > I use up to 1499x821 pixels with no problems on these albums. However if using color it is likely best to stay around 1000 pixels as the largest dimension for reasons of amount of memory used.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14911 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Just a test
              Attachments :
                I am sending this photo as a test with one attachment at the settings I normally and always use.  I have sent numerous pictures as attachments wthout changing any settings. There are:
               
              Resize and Compress Images into JPEG format
               
              Revise size
                Small 30% of image ( It is my understanding this helps people not on DSL load pictures in a timely manner ) 
               
              Image Quality
                  High Quality
               
                 When this arrives on the vinintageho site it will be in thumbnail size as an attachment.  When it arrives I will try to open to enlarge . I expect the picture to be easily viewed even with a bad photographer taking the pictures. I know nothing about the number of pixels having never changed whatever the are set at. This is how everyone of my attachments has been sent. In fact every picture in that album Rebuilding the Beast was sent as an attachment and the same way as I always do it.
               
                  I don't believe, and again I am not an expert on this, that the pictures I sent, the size I sent or the pixels they were taken at are the problem. Something else is at work here.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
                
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14912 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Just a test [1 Attachment]
              Jim,

              This photo did what it was supposed to: I clicked on the thumbnail below and was directed to the YaHoo site where a larger, proper size, picture appeared.

              On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 5:31 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
               
              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]

                I am sending this photo as a test with one attachment at the settings I normally and always use.  I have sent numerous pictures as attachments wthout changing any settings. There are:
               
              Resize and Compress Images into JPEG format
               
              Revise size
                Small 30% of image ( It is my understanding this helps people not on DSL load pictures in a timely manner ) 
               
              Image Quality
                  High Quality
               
                 When this arrives on the vinintageho site it will be in thumbnail size as an attachment.  When it arrives I will try to open to enlarge . I expect the picture to be easily viewed even with a bad photographer taking the pictures. I know nothing about the number of pixels having never changed whatever the are set at. This is how everyone of my attachments has been sent. In fact every picture in that album Rebuilding the Beast was sent as an attachment and the same way as I always do it.
               
                  I don't believe, and again I am not an expert on this, that the pictures I sent, the size I sent or the pixels they were taken at are the problem. Something else is at work here.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
                



              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14913 From: John H Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Just a test
              Yep, that'll do.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > I am sending this photo as a test with one attachment at the settings I normally and always use. I have sent numerous pictures as attachments wthout changing any settings. There are:
              >
              > Resize and Compress Images into JPEG format
              >
              > Revise size
              > Small 30% of image ( It is my understanding this helps people not on DSL load pictures in a timely manner )
              >
              > Image Quality
              > High Quality
              >
              > When this arrives on the vinintageho site it will be in thumbnail size as an attachment. When it arrives I will try to open to enlarge . I expect the picture to be easily viewed even with a bad photographer taking the pictures. I know nothing about the number of pixels having never changed whatever the are set at. This is how everyone of my attachments has been sent. In fact every picture in that album Rebuilding the Beast was sent as an attachment and the same way as I always do it.
              >
              > I don't believe, and again I am not an expert on this, that the pictures I sent, the size I sent or the pixels they were taken at are the problem. Something else is at work here.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14914 From: jim heckard Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Just a test Part 2
               
               
                       The picture I just sent to the vintageho site as an attachment arrived as thumbnail in size. You can click on it and it opens up. If not large enough you can open it to 150%  (at least I can )  163 KB  Resolution is 480 x 360  The picture, although a little dark at the cab ( black in color ), looks to me to be clear and easily viewed.
               
                 Again this is exactly how I send every attachment, and at the same settings I mentioned in  "Just a test Part 1" and is exactly how all the attachment pictures in the album Rebuilding the Beast were sent.
               
                  I leave it to better people then me to figure out the problem but I don't think the problem is at my end as to how I send my attachments nor the settings I use
               
               
                 Thanks for listening.
               
                                                                  Jim H
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14915 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"

              Yes, they are too small.  I retrieved them from the message section.  Any new photos should be added at the full size that Jim sends them at.  I have some to load shortly, so we shall see.

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of al45390
              Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:25 AM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] chuckie208755 & Jim H- Re: Album, "Rebuilding the Beast"

               

               

              Jim & chuckie208755,

              The photos in the album, "Rebuilding the Beast", are too small. They are thumbnails only. Or am I the only one experiencing this?

              Regards,
              Walter

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14916 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Just a test [1 Attachment]
              Lennard Stewart wrote:

                          Jim and others

                              I am getting jims attachments just fine It is the Photo's in the photo section under
              Rebuilding the Beast
              posted by chuckie208755     These are all thumbnails even when enlarged they are still thumbnails. I think when chuckie went to put them in the album he may have accidently changed them to thumbnails  in order to put them in an album he has to save the attachments to his computer and then upload them to an album and I think he may have accidentaly resized them to thumbnails. Hope this explains some of what is going on. Jim nothing is wrong with your attachments.
              I see what chuckie did he saved or copied the thumbnail as it appears in Jims post instead of opening the attachment and saving or copying the full size image and then uploading it.
              Lennard Stewart
              Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/


              jim heckard wrote:
               

                I am sending this photo as a test with one attachment at the settings I normally and always use.  I have sent numerous pictures as attachments wthout changing any settings. There are:
               
              Resize and Compress Images into JPEG format
               
              Revise size
                Small 30% of image ( It is my understanding this helps people not on DSL load pictures in a timely manner ) 
               
              Image Quality
                  High Quality
               
                 When this arrives on the vinintageho site it will be in thumbnail size as an attachment.  When it arrives I will try to open to enlarge . I expect the picture to be easily viewed even with a bad photographer taking the pictures. I know nothing about the number of pixels having never changed whatever the are set at. This is how everyone of my attachments has been sent. In fact every picture in that album Rebuilding the Beast was sent as an attachment and the same way as I always do it.
               
                  I don't believe, and again I am not an expert on this, that the pictures I sent, the size I sent or the pixels they were taken at are the problem. Something else is at work here.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
               
              .

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14917 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Just a test [1 Attachment]
              It comes out at 480 x 360, which is about right to make a 4 X 5 print, but
              not much larger.

              I always size my pictures (using "Irfanview") to make the largest dimension
              800 pixels, then to print and display at 100 pixels/inch. This seems to
              make a nice size for viewing without being exceptionally large.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:31 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Just a test [1 Attachment]


              I am sending this photo as a test with one attachment at the settings I
              normally and always use. I have sent numerous pictures as attachments
              wthout changing any settings. There are:

              Resize and Compress Images into JPEG format

              Revise size
              Small 30% of image ( It is my understanding this helps people not on DSL
              load pictures in a timely manner )

              Image Quality
              High Quality

              When this arrives on the vinintageho site it will be in thumbnail size as
              an attachment. When it arrives I will try to open to enlarge . I expect the
              picture to be easily viewed even with a bad photographer taking the
              pictures. I know nothing about the number of pixels having never changed
              whatever the are set at. This is how everyone of my attachments has been
              sent. In fact every picture in that album Rebuilding the Beast was sent as
              an attachment and the same way as I always do it.

              I don't believe, and again I am not an expert on this, that the pictures
              I sent, the size I sent or the pixels they were taken at are the problem.
              Something else is at work here.

              Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14918 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Just a test

              As time permits, I can go back and open the attachment and save it full size.  New ones loaded at full size, so most recant photos are now on the site at full size.

              Take care,

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Lennard Stewart
              Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 6:31 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Just a test

               

               

              Lennard Stewart wrote:

                          Jim and others

                              I am getting jims attachments just fine It is the Photo's in the photo section under
              Rebuilding the Beast
              posted by chuckie208755     These are all thumbnails even when enlarged they are still thumbnails. I think when chuckie went to put them in the album he may have accidently changed them to thumbnails  in order to put them in an album he has to save the attachments to his computer and then upload them to an album and I think he may have accidentaly resized them to thumbnails. Hope this explains some of what is going on. Jim nothing is wrong with your attachments.
              I see what chuckie did he saved or copied the thumbnail as it appears in Jims post instead of opening the attachment and saving or copying the full size image and then uploading it.

              Lennard Stewart
              Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/



              jim heckard wrote:

               

                I am sending this photo as a test with one attachment at the settings I normally and always use.  I have sent numerous pictures as attachments wthout changing any settings. There are:

               

              Resize and Compress Images into JPEG format

               

              Revise size

                Small 30% of image ( It is my understanding this helps people not on DSL load pictures in a timely manner ) 

               

              Image Quality

                  High Quality

               

                 When this arrives on the vinintageho site it will be in thumbnail size as an attachment.  When it arrives I will try to open to enlarge . I expect the picture to be easily viewed even with a bad photographer taking the pictures. I know nothing about the number of pixels having never changed whatever the are set at. This is how everyone of my attachments has been sent. In fact every picture in that album Rebuilding the Beast was sent as an attachment and the same way as I always do it.

               

                  I don't believe, and again I am not an expert on this, that the pictures I sent, the size I sent or the pixels they were taken at are the problem. Something else is at work here.

               

                                                               Jim H

               

               

              .

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14919 From: jim heckard Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: small details on the Beast
               

               
                        While I am waiting for a second sand dome and some special pre cut brass material for a boiler band I have added a few details on the boiler / cab of the Beast
               
                 The first picture shows the addition to the extended walkways of the final little down piece  that allows the boiler to swing over the crossover walkway on the pivoting pilot yet lets the walkways / steps of the boiler , when on straight track, appear that it is plausible for a worker on the engine to get up and down from the ground to the pilot and onto the boiler walkway.
               
                  The next picture shows handrails created for the back of the cab which along with the vertical handrail previously added to the tender allows engineer and fireman to get up to the cab.
               
                  Last picture is bead like lengths of material inserted into the boiler where it was filled in to match those post already cast other places on the boiler. This will allow the stanchions all to be at the same level so there would be no dip in the handrail running the length of the boiler.
               
                   Small things but needed to complete the look.
               
                                                                                       Jim H
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14920 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: small details on the Beast [3 Attachments]
              Looks good...  You might have to bend the bottom portion of the vertical cab handrails towards the front of the locomotive to keep them clear of the tender to avoid shorting the motor circuit.  I had to do that on a Berkshire I built for that reason.  Watch closely on the curves and see if there is enough clearance between the front of the tender and the bottom of the loco cab handrails.  Too much contact there could cause derailments of the tender and/or the loco.  I really like the results you have obtained.  Keep up the good work.

              Don Staton in VA.
              ================================================================================
              Snipped

              On 8/19/2010 12:27 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               

               
                        While I am waiting for a second sand dome and some special pre cut brass material for a boiler band I have added a few details on the boiler / cab of the Beast
               
                 The first picture shows the addition to the extended walkways of the final little down piece  that allows the boiler to swing over the crossover walkway on the pivoting pilot yet lets the walkways / steps of the boiler , when on straight track, appear that it is plausible for a worker on the engine to get up and down from the ground to the pilot and onto the boiler walkway.
               
                  The next picture shows handrails created for the back of the cab which along with the vertical handrail previously added to the tender allows engineer and fireman to get up to the cab.
               
                  Last picture is bead like lengths of material inserted into the boiler where it was filled in to match those post already cast other places on the boiler. This will allow the stanchions all to be at the same level so there would be no dip in the handrail running the length of the boiler.


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14921 From: jim heckard Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
                   Good thought.  I will have to check that out. I think that because I will be using the normal Mantua drawbar the distance between the tender and engine will be OK. However if I would decide to shorten the drawbar up I will keep this in mind.
               
                 I'm still debating piping and the steam pipes you suggested. Right now I want to get that second sand dome, those keystone like covers ( for the sand dome piping and controls) and the boiler band on first. Then if all still looks right go further.
               
                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 1:19 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] small details on the Beast

               

              Looks good...  You might have to bend the bottom portion of the vertical cab handrails towards the front of the locomotive to keep them clear of the tender to avoid shorting the motor circuit.  I had to do that on a Berkshire I built for that reason.  Watch closely on the curves and see if there is enough clearance between the front of the tender and the bottom of the loco cab handrails.  Too much contact there could cause derailments of the tender and/or the loco.  I really like the results you have obtained.  Keep up the good work.

              Don Staton in VA.
              ================================================================================
              Snipped

              On 8/19/2010 12:27 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               

               
                        While I am waiting for a second sand dome and some special pre cut brass material for a boiler band I have added a few details on the boiler / cab of the Beast
               
                 The first picture shows the addition to the extended walkways of the final little down piece  that allows the boiler to swing over the crossover walkway on the pivoting pilot yet lets the walkways / steps of the boiler , when on straight track, appear that it is plausible for a worker on the engine to get up and down from the ground to the pilot and onto the boiler walkway.
               
                  The next picture shows handrails created for the back of the cab which along with the vertical handrail previously added to the tender allows engineer and fireman to get up to the cab.
               
                  Last picture is bead like lengths of material inserted into the boiler where it was filled in to match those post already cast other places on the boiler. This will allow the stanchions all to be at the same level so there would be no dip in the handrail running the length of the boiler.


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14922 From: CinderCrusher Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
              Jim and Don,

              There is one solution to the cab-tender distance that will eliminate shorts forever. It takes a little extra work. What you do is fabricate electrical wipers for the insulated wheels on the tender trucks and then turn the tender trucks around. Now the locomotive frame and the tender frame are at the same polarity and the wire that normally goes to the tender frame now goes to the insulated wheels through the wipers. No more shorts.

              Bill DeFoe



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Good thought. I will have to check that out. I think that because I will be using the normal Mantua drawbar the distance between the tender and engine will be OK. However if I would decide to shorten the drawbar up I will keep this in mind.
              >

              > Jim H

              >
              > Looks good... You might have to bend the bottom portion of the vertical cab handrails towards the front of the locomotive to keep them clear of the tender to avoid shorting the motor circuit. I
              > Don Staton in VA.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14923 From: Garry Spear Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
              I'm selling some of my HO. I have a MEW NH EF-1 and a PFM NYC Niagara
              that I will list Sunday on eBay. The Brown Book values the NEW at
              abut $250 and the Niagara (1957/60 era) at about $250.

              How are the older brass locomotives (1960 era) holding their price?

              Any suggestions on listing them? Things to say, thing not to say?

              What year did Athearn stop with metal trucks in their kits and switch
              to plastic? I have 8 professionally painted and decaled Athearn
              hoppers to list on eBay.

              Offers accepted.

              Garry Spear
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14924 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
              Garry Spear wrote:
              >
              >
              > I'm selling some of my HO. I have a MEW NH EF-1 and a PFM NYC Niagara
              > that I will list Sunday on eBay. The Brown Book values the NEW at
              > abut $250 and the Niagara (1957/60 era) at about $250.
              >
              > How are the older brass locomotives (1960 era) holding their price?
              >
              $250 for the MEW might be a good average at eBay. Have bought two from
              The Caboose, both at ebay auctions, the first missing one set opf
              sideframes - $80, the second complete and ok, but painted orange (
              Milwaukee) - $167. Nice unpainted models may go higher, custom painted
              ones also.

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14925 From: Garry Spear Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
              Thanks for the quick response.  I'll have pictures later this evening, I hope.  The engine is "LIKE- NEW" condition, with professional paint.

              Garry Spear

              On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
               

              Garry Spear wrote:
              >
              >
              > I'm selling some of my HO. I have a MEW NH EF-1 and a PFM NYC Niagara
              > that I will list Sunday on eBay. The Brown Book values the NEW at
              > abut $250 and the Niagara (1957/60 era) at about $250.
              >
              > How are the older brass locomotives (1960 era) holding their price?
              >
              $250 for the MEW might be a good average at eBay. Have bought two from
              The Caboose, both at ebay auctions, the first missing one set opf
              sideframes - $80, the second complete and ok, but painted orange (
              Milwaukee) - $167. Nice unpainted models may go higher, custom painted
              ones also.

              Gerold

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14926 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
              Garry Spear wrote:
              >
              >
              > Thanks for the quick response. I'll have pictures later this evening,
              > I hope. The engine is "LIKE- NEW" condition, with professional paint.
              >
              Garry,
              with a good paint job, $250 -300 is reasonable. Would suggest to list it
              a little lower to attract some competetive bidding... if initial price
              is to high people may ignore it.

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14927 From: Garry Spear Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
              Here are Links to the Pictures.

              http://img.villagephotos.com/imageview.aspx?i=26639081
              http://img.villagephotos.com/imageview.aspx?i=26639073
              http://img.villagephotos.com/imageview.aspx?i=26639074
              http://img.villagephotos.com/imageview.aspx?i=26639075

              I was thinking of an opening bid of $149.99.

              Thoughts?

              Garry Spear

              On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:
              > Garry Spear wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> Thanks for the quick response.  I'll have pictures later this evening,
              >> I hope.  The engine is "LIKE- NEW" condition, with professional paint.
              >>
              > Garry,
              > with a good paint job, $250 -300 is reasonable. Would suggest to list it
              > a little lower to attract some competetive bidding... if initial price
              > is to high people may ignore it.
              >
              > Gerold
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14928 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
              Simpler--use the plastic bushings like the old MDC metal cars used, --or
              other insulated bolsters--and hard wire to the trucks. O Scalers were doing
              this back in the days of Lobaugh and Max Gray. gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "CinderCrusher" <defoe242@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:17 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: small details on the Beast


              > Jim and Don,
              >
              > There is one solution to the cab-tender distance that will eliminate
              > shorts forever. It takes a little extra work. What you do is fabricate
              > electrical wipers for the insulated wheels on the tender trucks and then
              > turn the tender trucks around. Now the locomotive frame and the tender
              > frame are at the same polarity and the wire that normally goes to the
              > tender frame now goes to the insulated wheels through the wipers. No more
              > shorts.
              >
              > Bill DeFoe
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Good thought. I will have to check that out. I think that because I
              >> will be using the normal Mantua drawbar the distance between the tender
              >> and engine will be OK. However if I would decide to shorten the drawbar
              >> up I will keep this in mind.
              >>
              >
              >> Jim H
              >
              >>
              >> Looks good... You might have to bend the bottom portion of the
              >> vertical cab handrails towards the front of the locomotive to keep them
              >> clear of the tender to avoid shorting the motor circuit. I
              >> Don Staton in VA.
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14929 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
              PSC has the bushings. gj

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "CinderCrusher" <defoe242@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:17 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: small details on the Beast


              > Jim and Don,
              >
              > There is one solution to the cab-tender distance that will eliminate
              > shorts forever. It takes a little extra work. What you do is fabricate
              > electrical wipers for the insulated wheels on the tender trucks and then
              > turn the tender trucks around. Now the locomotive frame and the tender
              > frame are at the same polarity and the wire that normally goes to the
              > tender frame now goes to the insulated wheels through the wipers. No more
              > shorts.
              >
              > Bill DeFoe
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Good thought. I will have to check that out. I think that because I
              >> will be using the normal Mantua drawbar the distance between the tender
              >> and engine will be OK. However if I would decide to shorten the drawbar
              >> up I will keep this in mind.
              >>
              >
              >> Jim H
              >
              >>
              >> Looks good... You might have to bend the bottom portion of the
              >> vertical cab handrails towards the front of the locomotive to keep them
              >> clear of the tender to avoid shorting the motor circuit. I
              >> Don Staton in VA.
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14930 From: CinderCrusher Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
              Glenn,

              You're right. The bushings would be easier. Sometimes the wipers are a little tricky to get adjusted right to make good contact without putting too much drag on the wheels.

              Bill DeFoe


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:
              >
              > PSC has the bushings. gj
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14931 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Brown Book of Brass Locomotives. And other questions.
              Garry Spear wrote:
              >
              >
              > Here are Links to the Pictures.
              >
              > http://img.villagephotos.com/imageview.aspx?i=26639081
              > http://img.villagephotos.com/imageview.aspx?i=26639073
              > http://img.villagephotos.com/imageview.aspx?i=26639074
              > http://img.villagephotos.com/imageview.aspx?i=26639075
              >
              > I was thinking of an opening bid of $149.99.
              >
              > Thoughts?
              >
              Garry,

              Nice. Would be glad the two I have would look like this one. - Could
              you please send me a full size scan of the sheet off list - as in your
              last link but without the parts and guarantee card ? Got none so would
              like to have it as a reference.

              Thanks ! Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14932 From: jerrygart5 Date: 8/20/2010
              Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
              Jim-pretty soon you will have to quit calling it "the beast" and start calling it "beauty"! It's becoming a quite attractive loco, and based upon your previous comments, a nice runner as well. She'll look great pulling a string of heavyweight passenger cars. VERY nice work!!
              Jerry Garteiser

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > While I am waiting for a second sand dome and some special pre cut brass material for a boiler band I have added a few details on the boiler / cab of the Beast . . . . . . (snip)
              >
              >
              > Small things but needed to complete the look.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14933 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/20/2010
              Subject: for sale
              I have for sale five M.B. Austin brass passenger cars factory painted SP Daylight.  These are the 72-ft length cars like Athearn.
               
              $75 plus postage for the works.
              Glenn Joesten
               
                  
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14934 From: jim heckard Date: 8/20/2010
              Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
                Jerry
               
                  Thanks for the comments.  If I do start calling the engine Beauty I will have to name her Louise so my wife doesn't get mad I have another lady in my life.
               
                                                           Jim
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jerrygart5
              Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:42 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: small details on the Beast

               

              Jim-pretty soon you will have to quit calling it "the beast" and start calling it "beauty"! It's becoming a quite attractive loco, and based upon your previous comments, a nice runner as well. She'll look great pulling a string of heavyweight passenger cars. VERY nice work!!
              Jerry Garteiser

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > While I am waiting for a second sand dome and some special pre cut brass material for a boiler band I have added a few details on the boiler / cab of the Beast . . . . . . (snip)
              >
              >
              > Small things but needed to complete the look.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14935 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/20/2010
              Subject: Re: small details on the Beast
              My Wife asked me whay my '69 Mustang's name was... she threw a fit after I told her the name...
               
              She wants me to name it Sally... I told her it was over-used. She has yet to give me a better one.
               
              So now...at least publicly, my '69 remains nameless..
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, August 20, 2010 11:50:38 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: small details on the Beast

               

                Jerry
               
                  Thanks for the comments.  If I do start calling the engine Beauty I will have to name her Louise so my wife doesn't get mad I have another lady in my life.
               
                                                           Jim
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jerrygart5
              Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:42 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: small details on the Beast

               

              Jim-pretty soon you will have to quit calling it "the beast" and start calling it "beauty"! It's becoming a quite attractive loco, and based upon your previous comments, a nice runner as well. She'll look great pulling a string of heavyweight passenger cars. VERY nice work!!
              Jerry Garteiser

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > While I am waiting for a second sand dome and some special pre cut brass material for a boiler band I have added a few details on the boiler / cab of the Beast . . . . . . (snip)
              >
              >
              > Small things but needed to complete the look.
              >
              > Jim H
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14936 From: rcjge Date: 8/20/2010
              Subject: ID help?
              Hey Fella's:

              I posted in the Identification folder a couple pictures of Vintage parts.

              I'm hoping someone can ID these parts for me. The hopper sides are I think Ulrich? The drop centre car siderails no idea, HELP!?

              Regards,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14937 From: Richard Date: 8/20/2010
              Subject: Rebuilding an Athearn B&M P4 Pacific
              I'm wondering if anyone on this list is involved in re-working an early Athearn pacific from the 1960's. I'm talking about modifications to this engine per Dave McMullian's article that began in the Boston and Maine's Historical Society's Modeler's Notes #115. I am working on one myself and would like to know how others are making out with this project.
              Richard in Vermont
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14938 From: David J. Starr Date: 8/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Rebuilding an Athearn B&M P4 Pacific
              On 8/20/2010 11:48 PM, Richard wrote:
              > I'm wondering if anyone on this list is involved in re-working an early Athearn pacific from the 1960's. I'm talking about modifications to this engine per Dave McMullian's article that began in the Boston and Maine's Historical Society's Modeler's Notes #115. I am working on one myself and would like to know how others are making out with this project.
              > Richard in Vermont
              >
              >

              I got one off Ebay a while ago. It was the "all plastic drivers,
              electrical pickup from the tender only" version. It had suffered a trip
              to the floor and the pilot was broken off. I made a new pilot assembly
              from a cast brass pilot, some brass bar stock, and scratch build
              ladders. It's together and it runs, sort of.
              The tender electrical pickup was flaky and it kept loosing power and
              stalling. Polishing the truck bosses, the wheels and the axles with a
              wire brush in a Dremel didn't help much. I fabricated track wipers from
              phosphor bronze and attached them in between the drivers. This picks
              plenty of juice but the pressure of the wipers takes enough weight off
              the drivers that they slip just pulling the tender on the flat.
              That's as far as the project has gotten. I'm waiting for inspiration
              to strike. Perhaps some hardwired jumpers from the tender trucks to the
              tender chassis?

              I posted some photos on photobucket here:
              http://s241.photobucket.com/albums/ff111/Mittersill/


              --
              David J. Starr

              Blog: http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14939 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Rebuilding an Athearn B&M P4 Pacific
              Lessen the tension on the wipers until they depress just a little as you set it on the railsThat will maintain the contact.  If you are experiencing excessive vertical slop in the driver bearings, add shims on the top of the cover plate on each side just below the axle center to take out the vertical movement but still allow the driver to move freely.  For the electrical contact, remove the tender shell and disassemble and polish the brass clips that the loco wires slip into and the same area on the tender where the brass connectors bear on the tender frame.  Bend the brass clips so that they put pressure on the clips as they are slipped into place.  That should help also.  If that does not help then attach a wire in each of the tender connector locations and put a slip connector in the wires between the loco and tender.  A two prong male/female connector small enough to hide in the cab would be great for this.

              I reworked one of these a very long time ago and used the frame to power a Hobbyline Berkshire boiler into a hudson 4-6-4 similar to C&O.
              Mine ran well after all of the polishing and adding bearing shims but light flexible wire with 2 prong connectors would work better between the loco and tender.  You could also use dress snaps or a piece of rail and a rail joiner as between loco/tender connectors to see if this improves the performance...  Just be sure to mark which wire goes with the connecting wire and keep the two connections from contacting each other to avoid short circuits.  I found the wires that came on the loco will stiffen and cause derailments.  Make sure the lead and trailing truck wheels are in proper gauge.  A lead truck modification that works much better is to make a spring wire or spring brass tongue and attach it to the lead truck and loco frame with screws that allow both to swivel.  I mounted one of these lead trucks on a kit bashed 4-8-4 in this manner and it works marvelously.  The original mounting derailed often.  The modified lead truck seldom derails if all turnouts are within NMRA standards for wheels and turnouts and turnout switch points are sharpened to knife edge points.

              Happy railroading...
              Don Staton in VA
              =======================================================================================================
              Snipped

              On 8/21/2010 10:05 AM, David J. Starr wrote:
               

              On 8/20/2010 11:48 PM, Richard wrote:
              > I'm wondering if anyone on this list is involved in re-working an early Athearn pacific from the 1960's. I'm talking about modifications to this engine per Dave McMullian's article that began in the Boston and Maine's Historical Society's Modeler's Notes #115. I am working on one myself and would like to know how others are making out with this project.
              > Richard in Vermont
              >
              >

              I got one off Ebay a while ago. It was the "all plastic drivers,
              electrical pickup from the tender only" version. It had suffered a trip
              to the floor and the pilot was broken off. I made a new pilot assembly
              from a cast brass pilot, some brass bar stock, and scratch build
              ladders. It's together and it runs, sort of.


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14940 From: Nelson B Date: 8/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Rebuilding an Athearn B&M P4 Pacific
              One thing I learned was to back off on the brush spring tension. The old Athearn open frames don't have a huge amount of torque, so bending the springs back a bit made a huge difference, as well as soaking the brushes in solvent to remove any oil. The commutator wicks up oil very quickly from the front bearing, so less is more because oily brushes also create drag.

              I actually get a bit of flywheel effect from the motor now, and the loco has noticeably more power.

              Nelson



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
              >
              > /Lessen the tension on the wipers until they depress just a little as
              > you set it on the rails/. /That will maintain the contact. If you are
              > experiencing excessive vertical slop in the driver bearings, add shims
              > on the top of the cover plate on each side just below the axle center to
              > take out the vertical movement but still allow the driver to move
              > freely. For the electrical contact, remove the tender shell and
              > disassemble and polish the brass clips that the loco wires slip into and
              > the same area on the tender where the brass connectors bear on the
              > tender frame. Bend the brass clips so that they put pressure on the
              > clips as they are slipped into place. That should help also. If that
              > does not help then attach a wire in each of the tender connector
              > locations and put a slip connector in the wires between the loco and
              > tender. A two prong male/female connector small enough to hide in the
              > cab would be great for this./
              >
              > /I reworked one of these a very long time ago and used the frame to
              > power a Hobbyline Berkshire boiler into a hudson 4-6-4 similar to C&O.
              > Mine ran well after all of the polishing and adding bearing shims but
              > _light flexible wire_ with 2 prong connectors would work better between
              > the loco and tender. You could also use dress snaps or a piece of rail
              > and a rail joiner as between loco/tender connectors to see if this
              > improves the performance... Just be sure to mark which wire goes with
              > the connecting wire and keep the two connections from contacting each
              > other to avoid short circuits. I found the wires that came on the loco
              > will stiffen and cause derailments. Make sure the lead and trailing
              > truck wheels are in proper gauge. A lead truck modification that works
              > much better is to make a spring wire or spring brass tongue and attach
              > it to the lead truck and loco frame with screws that allow both to
              > swivel. I mounted one of these lead trucks on a kit bashed 4-8-4 in
              > this manner and it works marvelously. The original mounting derailed
              > often. The modified lead truck seldom derails if all turnouts are
              > within NMRA standards for wheels and turnouts and turnout switch points
              > are sharpened to knife edge points.
              >
              > Happy railroading...
              > Don Staton in VA
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14941 From: jbark76 Date: 8/22/2010
              Subject: Re: ID help?
              I'll give it a shot. #1: Drop flat sides look Redball, frame below it is short athearn tank frame. The hopper sides are Ulrich as-well-as the ends and the half of broken frame. The end with the door looks like Silver Streak boom car. In the lower left it looks like the top of a powered truck frame, but I'm not sure of the manufacturer. The brass piece looks like it holds the sideframes on a truck. #2: Top left looks like the end of a Walthers trolly. Top looks like , maybe, Walthers? frame. All sides are Roundhouse. And the brass piece looks like the retainer plate for the bottom of an engine, don't know which.
              Good Luck, Jeff
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14942 From: rcjge Date: 8/22/2010
              Subject: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
              Hey Gents:

              I'm sure this has been discussed before so If someone can point me to a thread about whether to modify a vintage model Locomotive or Car that would be great. however barring that I'd like to bat this around using two examples.

              1) Athearn Little Monster: Broken boiler tabs is the problem and I have two. On one the small sliver of material below the shell mounting tab is cracked but attached. I will likely repair that and leave it as original. The other same tab broken off and missing will likely get reworked a fair bit. Part of the rationale there is that I intend to operate it and they aren't great runners w/o reworking/re-powering.

              2) Mantua Metal Sharks ABA set: No real issue. What I was going to do was paint them in PRR paint but add the PRR specific side/nose ladder and maybe the double pyle headlight in the original hole. Not sure about the radio-phone...masts. Thats the debate; alter an original or not...

              Anyway fella's I'd really like to hear from Y'all aon this.

              Best,
              Gareth Edwards
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14943 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 8/22/2010
              Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
              This same question comes up amongst "car guys" a lot.  And often with a lot of intensity!
               
              My view is that if somebody owns something, they can do anything with it THEY want to.  Others are free to like it or lump it.
               
              Now, when it comes to cars, there might be a few cases where this doesn't seem to be the right thing to do.  Such as turning some one-of-a-kind Bugatti into a street rod.  If something is that rare, perhaps there is some responsibility to "future generations".  "Crown" brass models might be in this category.  But the inherent value and potential value drop would tend to dissuade most from modifying them anyway. 
               
              But for garden variety things that aren't unique (such as a Ford Mustang) or not particularly rare (such as a Ford Mustang), I say "have at it".
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:36 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge

               

              Hey Gents:

              I'm sure this has been discussed before so If someone can point me to a thread about whether to modify a vintage model Locomotive or Car that would be great. however barring that I'd like to bat this around using two examples.

              1) Athearn Little Monster: Broken boiler tabs is the problem and I have two. On one the small sliver of material below the shell mounting tab is cracked but attached. I will likely repair that and leave it as original. The other same tab broken off and missing will likely get reworked a fair bit. Part of the rationale there is that I intend to operate it and they aren't great runners w/o reworking/re-powering.

              2) Mantua Metal Sharks ABA set: No real issue. What I was going to do was paint them in PRR paint but add the PRR specific side/nose ladder and maybe the double pyle headlight in the original hole. Not sure about the radio-phone...masts. Thats the debate; alter an original or not...

              Anyway fella's I'd really like to hear from Y'all aon this.

              Best,
              Gareth Edwards

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14944 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/22/2010
              Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
              ckinzer@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > This same question comes up amongst "car guys" a lot. And often with
              > a lot of intensity!
              >
              > My view is that if somebody owns something, they can do anything with
              > it THEY want to. Others are free to like it or lump it.
              >
              > Now, when it comes to cars, there might be a few cases where this
              > doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. Such as turning some
              > one-of-a-kind Bugatti into a street rod. If something is that rare,
              > perhaps there is some responsibility to "future generations". "Crown"
              > brass models might be in this category. But the inherent value and
              > potential value drop would tend to dissuade most from modifying them
              > anyway.
              >
              > But for garden variety things that aren't unique (such as a Ford
              > Mustang) or not particularly rare (such as a Ford Mustang), I say
              > "have at it".
              >
              I agree. Maybe wouldnt modify a pristine new-in-the box Sharknose or
              Little Monster.... but 95% of them are worn/ broken / modified anyway so
              you should not worry about tinkering with them.

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14945 From: Ken Date: 8/22/2010
              Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
              The comparison to automobiles is good.... BUT....There has always been an "aftermarket" of custom parts for autos and there sure has been for trains! I'm in the planning stages of taking a Mantua Camelback and adding valvegear and all the piping and lube lines as one of these appeared in its late life. Fully modernized. oh.. DCC sound too. What will be original? The boiler shell. Tender shell and frame and cylinders. Precision Scale will supply most of the parts. I'm also doing an Athearn Metal crane and converting it to a fully animated version. Boom Whip and rotate! All DCC. So yes! Modify make it look real! The manufacturers just gave us a base to work on.
              Ken

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > I'm sure this has been discussed before so If someone can point me to a thread about whether to modify a vintage model Locomotive or Car that would be great. however barring that I'd like to bat this around using two examples.
              >
              > 1) Athearn Little Monster: Broken boiler tabs is the problem and I have two. On one the small sliver of material below the shell mounting tab is cracked but attached. I will likely repair that and leave it as original. The other same tab broken off and missing will likely get reworked a fair bit. Part of the rationale there is that I intend to operate it and they aren't great runners w/o reworking/re-powering.
              >
              > 2) Mantua Metal Sharks ABA set: No real issue. What I was going to do was paint them in PRR paint but add the PRR specific side/nose ladder and maybe the double pyle headlight in the original hole. Not sure about the radio-phone...masts. Thats the debate; alter an original or not...
              >
              > Anyway fella's I'd really like to hear from Y'all aon this.
              >
              > Best,
              > Gareth Edwards
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14946 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/22/2010
              Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
              Ken wrote:
              >
              >
              > The comparison to automobiles is good.... BUT....There has always been
              > an "aftermarket" of custom parts for autos and there sure has been for
              > trains! I'm in the planning stages of taking a Mantua Camelback and
              > adding valvegear and all the piping and lube lines as one of these
              > appeared in its late life. Fully modernized. oh.. DCC sound too. What
              > will be original? The boiler shell. Tender shell and frame and
              > cylinders. Precision Scale will supply most of the parts. I'm also
              > doing an Athearn Metal crane and converting it to a fully animated
              > version. Boom Whip and rotate! All DCC. So yes! Modify make it look
              > real! The manufacturers just gave us a base to work on.
              > Ken
              >
              as you say this, it comes to my mind that Ed Suydam said his brass
              (heavyweight passenger) models are only a base to start with...
              purchaser is suppose to add trucks , underbody detail, paint , decals,
              glazing, couplers.....

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14947 From: Mike Sloane Date: 8/22/2010
              Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
              While I agree with others' comments, I would add that a lot would depend
              on the scarcity of the item. If your Athearn "Little Monster" was the
              only one in existence, it would be a shame to hack it up, but there are
              literally thousands of them out there (I have two, sitting on my "dead
              line"), so I don't think that you are messing with history. Maybe in
              another 100 years someone will regret that you modified it, but you and
              I will be long gone by then. It is your life to enjoy now.

              Mike

              On 8/22/2010 12:57 PM, Ken wrote:
              >
              >
              > The comparison to automobiles is good.... BUT....There has always been
              > an "aftermarket" of custom parts for autos and there sure has been for
              > trains! I'm in the planning stages of taking a Mantua Camelback and
              > adding valvegear and all the piping and lube lines as one of these
              > appeared in its late life. Fully modernized. oh.. DCC sound too. What
              > will be original? The boiler shell. Tender shell and frame and
              > cylinders. Precision Scale will supply most of the parts. I'm also doing
              > an Athearn Metal crane and converting it to a fully animated version.
              > Boom Whip and rotate! All DCC. So yes! Modify make it look real! The
              > manufacturers just gave us a base to work on.
              > Ken
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hey Gents:
              > >
              > > I'm sure this has been discussed before so If someone can point me to
              > a thread about whether to modify a vintage model Locomotive or Car that
              > would be great. however barring that I'd like to bat this around using
              > two examples.
              > >
              > > 1) Athearn Little Monster: Broken boiler tabs is the problem and I
              > have two. On one the small sliver of material below the shell mounting
              > tab is cracked but attached. I will likely repair that and leave it as
              > original. The other same tab broken off and missing will likely get
              > reworked a fair bit. Part of the rationale there is that I intend to
              > operate it and they aren't great runners w/o reworking/re-powering.
              > >
              > > 2) Mantua Metal Sharks ABA set: No real issue. What I was going to do
              > was paint them in PRR paint but add the PRR specific side/nose ladder
              > and maybe the double pyle headlight in the original hole. Not sure about
              > the radio-phone...masts. Thats the debate; alter an original or not...
              > >
              > > Anyway fella's I'd really like to hear from Y'all aon this.
              > >
              > > Best,
              > > Gareth Edwards
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14948 From: jim heckard Date: 8/23/2010
              Subject: Need to find
               
               

               
                      I am in search of a sand dome ( plastic, cast metal or brass) to try to match a sand dome on a Mantua or TYCO Pacific boiler so I can add a second sand dome on my project engine. It would be nearly impossible to cut one off a similar boiler so I hope one of the members can help me closely match one needed to the one already cast one on the engines boiler. First picture shows what I need. Second picture ( which turned sideways ) is a drawing with measurements as close as I can get.
               
                The dome sits 3/16" off the crest / highest point of the boiler. The length, across the boiler is 9/16". The width is 7/16'  The length and width measurements are taken before the dome kind of rounds to the top of where it is flat.
               
                Hope I'm describing it clearly. Anyone that might have one let me know of site at   jimheck@...   cost and shipping needed.
               
                                                                            Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14949 From: Glenn476 Date: 8/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Need to find [2 Attachments]
              Why not take a mold off the one you have and cast some in resin?  gj
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 2:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Need to find [2 Attachments]

               
               

               
                      I am in search of a sand dome ( plastic, cast metal or brass) to try to match a sand dome on a Mantua or TYCO Pacific boiler so I can add a second sand dome on my project engine. It would be nearly impossible to cut one off a similar boiler so I hope one of the members can help me closely match one needed to the one already cast one on the engines boiler. First picture shows what I need. Second picture ( which turned sideways ) is a drawing with measurements as close as I can get.
               
                The dome sits 3/16" off the crest / highest point of the boiler. The length, across the boiler is 9/16". The width is 7/16'  The length and width measurements are taken before the dome kind of rounds to the top of where it is flat.
               
                Hope I'm describing it clearly. Anyone that might have one let me know of site at   jimheck@...   cost and shipping needed.
               
                                                                            Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14950 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Need to find
              I might have some Jim. I will check. 

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Aug 23, 2010, at 5:26 PM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:

               

              Why not take a mold off the one you have and cast some in resin?  gj
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 2:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Need to find [2 Attachments]

               
               

               
                      I am in search of a sand dome ( plastic, cast metal or brass) to try to match a sand dome on a Mantua or TYCO Pacific boiler so I can add a second sand dome on my project engine. It would be nearly impossible to cut one off a similar boiler so I hope one of the members can help me closely match one needed to the one already cast one on the engines boiler. First picture shows what I need. Second picture ( which turned sideways ) is a drawing with measurements as close as I can get.
               
                The dome sits 3/16" off the crest / highest point of the boiler. The length, across the boiler is 9/16". The width is 7/16'  The length and width measurements are taken before the dome kind of rounds to the top of where it is flat.
               
                Hope I'm describing it clearly. Anyone that might have one let me know of site at   jimheck@...   cost and shipping needed.
               
                                                                            Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14951 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Need to find [2 Attachments]
              Build one...  Start with a brass or styrene plate the same size as the curved base of the current dome base on the boiler...  Cut sheet plastic the same size as the flat measurements of the current dome, stack and glue them one on top of another until you have the right height...  Use any thickness from 1/16th to 1/8th to get the 3/16ths you need...Fill the curved sections below the flat plates and the top of the curved plate with a filler you can file or sand...  Using this method you can match the current dome and also get the right height to match the top of the turret I did this long ago on custom locos.  Then you can add your sanding valve covers (keystone shapes you made) and have a perfect match.


              Don Staton in VA.
              ==================================================================================

              On 8/23/2010 5:04 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               
               

               
                      I am in search of a sand dome ( plastic, cast metal or brass) to try to match a sand dome on a Mantua or TYCO Pacific boiler so I can add a second sand dome on my project engine. It would be nearly impossible to cut one off a similar boiler so I hope one of the members can help me closely match one needed to the one already cast one on the engines boiler. First picture shows what I need. Second picture ( which turned sideways ) is a drawing with measurements as close as I can get.
               
                The dome sits 3/16" off the crest / highest point of the boiler. The length, across the boiler is 9/16". The width is 7/16'  The length and width measurements are taken before the dome kind of rounds to the top of where it is flat.
               
                Hope I'm describing it clearly. Anyone that might have one let me know of site at   jimheck@...   cost and shipping needed.
               
                                                                            Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14952 From: jim heckard Date: 8/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Need to find
              Glenn,
               
                  Good idea about resin. Never thought of that. Downside is it possible to make a mold of the sand dome on the engine because of the two keystone like shaped covers ( for the sand hoses and controls ) already cast on either side at the bottoms of the dome  and part of it. ?
               
                                           Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Glenn476
              Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 5:26 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need to find

               

              Why not take a mold off the one you have and cast some in resin?  gj
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 2:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Need to find [2 Attachments]

               
               

               
                      I am in search of a sand dome ( plastic, cast metal or brass) to try to match a sand dome on a Mantua or TYCO Pacific boiler so I can add a second sand dome on my project engine. It would be nearly impossible to cut one off a similar boiler so I hope one of the members can help me closely match one needed to the one already cast one on the engines boiler. First picture shows what I need. Second picture ( which turned sideways ) is a drawing with measurements as close as I can get.
               
                The dome sits 3/16" off the crest / highest point of the boiler. The length, across the boiler is 9/16". The width is 7/16'  The length and width measurements are taken before the dome kind of rounds to the top of where it is flat.
               
                Hope I'm describing it clearly. Anyone that might have one let me know of site at   jimheck@...   cost and shipping needed.
               
                                                                            Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14953 From: jim heckard Date: 8/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Need to find
                  Don,
               
                   I have to keep this in the back of my mind. I will have to do filling and filing / sanding to attach those covers anyway. Maybe I could make it all one part smoothed and fitted before attaching. Thanks.
               
                                                                               Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 5:52 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need to find

               

              Build one...  Start with a brass or styrene plate the same size as the curved base of the current dome base on the boiler...  Cut sheet plastic the same size as the flat measurements of the current dome, stack and glue them one on top of another until you have the right height...  Use any thickness from 1/16th to 1/8th to get the 3/16ths you need...Fill the curved sections below the flat plates and the top of the curved plate with a filler you can file or sand...  Using this method you can match the current dome and also get the right height to match the top of the turret I did this long ago on custom locos.  Then you can add your sanding valve covers (keystone shapes you made) and have a perfect match.


              Don Staton in VA.
              ==================================================================================

              On 8/23/2010 5:04 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               
               

               
                      I am in search of a sand dome ( plastic, cast metal or brass) to try to match a sand dome on a Mantua or TYCO Pacific boiler so I can add a second sand dome on my project engine. It would be nearly impossible to cut one off a similar boiler so I hope one of the members can help me closely match one needed to the one already cast one on the engines boiler. First picture shows what I need. Second picture ( which turned sideways ) is a drawing with measurements as close as I can get.
               
                The dome sits 3/16" off the crest / highest point of the boiler. The length, across the boiler is 9/16". The width is 7/16'  The length and width measurements are taken before the dome kind of rounds to the top of where it is flat.
               
                Hope I'm describing it clearly. Anyone that might have one let me know of site at   jimheck@...   cost and shipping needed.
               
                                                                            Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14954 From: jim heckard Date: 8/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Need to find
              
                  Sean,
               
                     If you have something already made it would save time. Although Glenn and Don have great ideas I admit I'm lazy. If nothing else I think now what ever dome I do use I will be able to pre attach those covers and fill and file before installing on the boiler saving trying to work in tight corners when on the boiler.
               
                   I would have never thought of that if I didn't ask my question. Would make the installing project much easier.
               
                   Thanks to you all.
               
                                                                                                     Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 5:30 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need to find

               

              I might have some Jim. I will check. 

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Aug 23, 2010, at 5:26 PM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:

               

              Why not take a mold off the one you have and cast some in resin?  gj
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 2:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Need to find [2 Attachments]

               
               

               
                      I am in search of a sand dome ( plastic, cast metal or brass) to try to match a sand dome on a Mantua or TYCO Pacific boiler so I can add a second sand dome on my project engine. It would be nearly impossible to cut one off a similar boiler so I hope one of the members can help me closely match one needed to the one already cast one on the engines boiler. First picture shows what I need. Second picture ( which turned sideways ) is a drawing with measurements as close as I can get.
               
                The dome sits 3/16" off the crest / highest point of the boiler. The length, across the boiler is 9/16". The width is 7/16'  The length and width measurements are taken before the dome kind of rounds to the top of where it is flat.
               
                Hope I'm describing it clearly. Anyone that might have one let me know of site at   jimheck@...   cost and shipping needed.
               
                                                                            Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14955 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Need to find
              Jim. The molding idea is pretty good. Use latex. The same stuff used to make the mold landscape rocks. Make it thick... Say 1/2 inch. Biuld the mold in layers and let the layers dry before applying the next layer. You can also biluild a form out if masking tape to minimize your coverage area.

              Sean
              Sent from my iPhone

              On Aug 23, 2010, at 6:12 PM, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:

               

              

                  Sean,
               
                     If you have something already made it would save time. Although Glenn and Don have great ideas I admit I'm lazy. If nothing else I think now what ever dome I do use I will be able to pre attach those covers and fill and file before installing on the boiler saving trying to work in tight corners when on the boiler.
               
                   I would have never thought of that if I didn't ask my question. Would make the installing project much easier.
               
                   Thanks to you all.
               
                                                                                                     Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 5:30 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Need to find

               

              I might have some Jim. I will check. 

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Aug 23, 2010, at 5:26 PM, "Glenn476" <glenn476@...> wrote:

               

              Why not take a mold off the one you have and cast some in resin?  gj
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 2:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Need to find [2 Attachments]

               
               

               
                      I am in search of a sand dome ( plastic, cast metal or brass) to try to match a sand dome on a Mantua or TYCO Pacific boiler so I can add a second sand dome on my project engine. It would be nearly impossible to cut one off a similar boiler so I hope one of the members can help me closely match one needed to the one already cast one on the engines boiler. First picture shows what I need. Second picture ( which turned sideways ) is a drawing with measurements as close as I can get.
               
                The dome sits 3/16" off the crest / highest point of the boiler. The length, across the boiler is 9/16". The width is 7/16'  The length and width measurements are taken before the dome kind of rounds to the top of where it is flat.
               
                Hope I'm describing it clearly. Anyone that might have one let me know of site at   jimheck@...   cost and shipping needed.
               
                                                                            Jim H



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14956 From: Nelson B Date: 8/23/2010
              Subject: Re: To Modify or Not to Modify Vinatge
              I agree, particularly in regards to the Little Monster. Given that it isn't rare, I'm sure it would enhance the value somewhat to repair it and have it in good working order. Assuming you were to sell it at some point, a re-worked unit free of mechanical problems would likely fetch more than an 'authentic' paperweight.

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              >
              > While I agree with others' comments, I would add that a lot would depend
              > on the scarcity of the item. If your Athearn "Little Monster" was the
              > only one in existence, it would be a shame to hack it up, but there are
              > literally thousands of them out there (I have two, sitting on my "dead
              > line"), so I don't think that you are messing with history. Maybe in
              > another 100 years someone will regret that you modified it, but you and
              > I will be long gone by then. It is your life to enjoy now.
              >
              > Mike
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14957 From: charlie@tech-j.biz Date: 8/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
              Hi Gerold

              In the quote below you mention an ad which you have in your files of a Verandah Gas Turbine. Sometime could you check again and advise me the details of the ad. What company, what model etc.

              Thanks

              Charlie Harris

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com,
              I am quite sure I know the name of H.Jaffe, Brooklyn... seems I have another trolley kit with his name on the box... not sure which kit but may find it somewhere.
              > another ad I have found in my files shows a Veranda Gas Turbine kit.... I wonder if this ever was actually produced??
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14958 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Locomotive Workshop
              charlie@... wrote:
               

              Hi Gerold

              In the quote below you mention an ad which you have in your files of a Verandah Gas Turbine. Sometime could you check again and advise me the details of the ad. What company, what model etc.

              Here is the scanned ad, from Kuly 1971 Craftsman. Have three Trolley ads from this time on file too. If interested I may send these too.

              Gerold
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14959 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/24/2010
              Subject: resin dome
              jim heckard wrote:
               

              Glenn,
               
                  Good idea about resin. Never thought of that. Downside is it possible to make a mold of the sand dome on the engine because of the two keystone like shaped covers ( for the sand hoses and controls ) already cast on either side at the bottoms of the dome  and part of it. ?
              Jim,

              I have cast a resin dome for my ATSF Northern - easy job... built a box from modeling clay atop the boiler around the remaining dome,  poured RTV silicone in the box, had a perfect mold.... hard part was to reshape it as the mold is from the second dome which has a different shape than the first one, due to sitting on the conical boiler course.  Northern is complete with sander pipes and other details still missing on picture and painted by now, awaiting decals.

              Gerold
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14960 From: John Hagen Date: 8/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Need to find
              Attachments :
              Re: Need to find

              <<...>>

              Jim,

              Heres part of a page from the Precision Scale Co, Inc. Steam Locomotive catalog # 3.1 showing their modern sand domes. Of course just how well they would match up to the boilers curvature is not at all certain.

              But I like the possibility of the two EM-1 sand domes. Most interesting ids the P7 dome, which looks to be a brass version of the cast on dome.

              Hope this helps.

              John Hagen

                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14961 From: jim heckard Date: 8/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Need to find [1 Attachment]
              John,
               
                 Thanks for the picture from the catalog. The P 7 dome with the covers does look closest. However I get the impression, and my eyes not the best , that the P 7 dome look longer then the Mantua cast on dome. I wish I had started this project from scratch and maybe could have done something to add two of the same domes but to start rebuilding the already built engine doesn't give me many options. Then again if I didn't buy this to see if I could improve it plus even the mechanical end I would not have started it in the first place.
               
                                                Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: John Hagen
              Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 5:09 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Need to find [1 Attachment]

               

              <<...>>

              Jim,

              HereÂ’s part of a page from the Precision Scale Co, Inc. Steam Locomotive catalog # 3.1 showing their modern sand domes. Of course just how well they would match up to the boilers curvature is not at all certain.

              But I like the possibility of the two EM-1 sand domes. Most interesting ids the P7 dome, which looks to be a brass version of the cast on dome.

              Hope this helps.

              John Hagen

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14962 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Need to find [1 Attachment]
              Jim, the T3 dome should be just about the right match since the Mantua/Tyco boiler was a close model of the B&O Pacific.  Thanks John.

              Don Staton in VA.
              ==================================================================================
              On 8/24/2010 5:09 PM, John Hagen wrote:
               

              <<...>>

              Jim,

              Heres part of a page from the Precision Scale Co, Inc. Steam Locomotive catalog # 3.1 showing their modern sand domes. Of course just how well they would match up to the boilers curvature is not at all certain.

              But I like the possibility of the two EM-1 sand domes. Most interesting ids the P7 dome, which looks to be a brass version of the cast on dome.

              Hope this helps.

              John Hagen

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14963 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 8/24/2010
              Subject: UP Gas Turbine
              Lee Durham of St Louis imported a few of these gas turbines about 1971 in painted brass, HO. Many of his imports seemed to be the same as Austin's and perhaps other small importers'.

              Merle Rice
              Model RR Warehouse
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14964 From: al45390 Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: American Beauty HO Aluminum C & O 85' Coach B862
              See E-Bay # 150484029376. Is this really American Beauty? Any Thoughts?
              Walt
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14965 From: jim heckard Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Slow Progress on the Beast
               

               
               
                  Have made some progress on my pet project 4-4-4-2 Mantua modified engine. I was able to add the extra boiler band and also add a second sand dome. I am now adding the covers on the sides of the sand dome.
               
                 Since the normal Mantua Pacific boiler has two different outside diameters the front sand dome sits lower and is on a smaller O.D. The second sand dome was added on the larger O.D. ( in the area that was filled in where the two boilers were joined ) of the boiler so it sits higher then the front one. This means the sand dome covers sit higher too. Add the different O.D.'s and it creates some problems where the second sand dome is attached. Although the second added sand dome was not an exact match it was actually helpful that is was a little longer sitting over the boiler so that the added covers almost stood up as straight as the front cast ones do.
               
                   I have some filing and sanding to match the front and back sand domes and covers but I think it will look decent. ( Back covers are still a little to wide. Pictures help my poor eyes see these things better.)
               
                                                                                              Jim H 
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14966 From: Walter Bayer Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14967 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast
              It might be your email / membership account settings Walter as I can see the images fine through my yahoo email account delivered email.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Walter Bayer <bayerw2@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 3:12:27 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast

               

              Hi again Jim,

               

              Sure enough, these photos are blanks too.

               

              Regards,
              Walter

              -----Original Message-----
              From:
              vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:05 PM
              To:
              vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Chuck Higdon
              Subject: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]

               

               

               

               

               

               

                  Have made some progress on my pet project 4-4-4-2 Mantua modified engine. I was able to add the extra boiler band and also add a second sand dome. I am now adding the covers on the sides of the sand dome.

               

                 Since the normal Mantua Pacific boiler has two different outside diameters the front sand dome sits lower and is on a smaller O.D. The second sand dome was added on the larger O.D. ( in the area that was filled in where the two boilers were joined ) of the boiler so it sits higher then the front one. This means the sand dome covers sit higher too. Add the different O.D.'s and it creates some problems where the second sand dome is attached. Although the second added sand dome was not an exact match it was actually helpful that is was a little longer sitting over the boiler so that the added covers almost stood up as straight as the front cast ones do.

               

                   I have some filing and sanding to match the front and back sand domes and covers but I think it will look decent. ( Back covers are still a little to wide. Pictures help my poor eyes see these things better.)

               

                                                                                              Jim H 

               

               


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14968 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast
              They are blank on my account also.  Even the thumbnails on the incoming message are blank with only a number showing.  I get the same on the yahoo site...  And I do not usually have a problem with the photos...  And I have not changed anything.
              Don Staton in VA
              =============================================================================

              On 8/25/2010 3:15 PM, Sean Naylor wrote:
               
              It might be your email / membership account settings Walter as I can see the images fine through my yahoo email account delivered email.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Walter Bayer <bayerw2@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 3:12:27 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast

               

              Hi again Jim,

               

              Sure enough, these photos are blanks too.

               

              Regards,
              Walter

              -----Original Message-----
              From:
              vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:05 PM
              To:
              vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Chuck Higdon
              Subject: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]

               

               

               

               

               

               

                  Have made some progress on my pet project 4-4-4-2 Mantua modified engine. I was able to add the extra boiler band and also add a second sand dome. I am now adding the covers on the sides of the sand dome.

               

                 Since the normal Mantua Pacific boiler has two different outside diameters the front sand dome sits lower and is on a smaller O.D. The second sand dome was added on the larger O.D. ( in the area that was filled in where the two boilers were joined ) of the boiler so it sits higher then the front one. This means the sand dome covers sit higher too. Add the different O.D.'s and it creates some problems where the second sand dome is attached. Although the second added sand dome was not an exact match it was actually helpful that is was a little longer sitting over the boiler so that the added covers almost stood up as straight as the front cast ones do.

               

                   I have some filing and sanding to match the front and back sand domes and covers but I think it will look decent. ( Back covers are still a little to wide. Pictures help my poor eyes see these things better.)

               

                                                                                              Jim H 

               

               


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14969 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast
              that's weird.. I can see them fine.. both VintageHO & Yardbird..
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 3:21:51 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast

               

              They are blank on my account also.  Even the thumbnails on the incoming message are blank with only a number showing.  I get the same on the yahoo site...  And I do not usually have a problem with the photos...  And I have not changed anything.
              Don Staton in VA
              =============================================================================

              On 8/25/2010 3:15 PM, Sean Naylor wrote:
               
              It might be your email / membership account settings Walter as I can see the images fine through my yahoo email account delivered email.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Walter Bayer <bayerw2@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 3:12:27 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast

               

              Hi again Jim,

               

              Sure enough, these photos are blanks too.

               

              Regards,
              Walter

              -----Original Message-----
              From:
              vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:05 PM
              To:
              vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Chuck Higdon
              Subject: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]

               

               

               

               

               

               

                  Have made some progress on my pet project 4-4-4-2 Mantua modified engine. I was able to add the extra boiler band and also add a second sand dome. I am now adding the covers on the sides of the sand dome.

               

                 Since the normal Mantua Pacific boiler has two different outside diameters the front sand dome sits lower and is on a smaller O.D. The second sand dome was added on the larger O.D. ( in the area that was filled in where the two boilers were joined ) of the boiler so it sits higher then the front one. This means the sand dome covers sit higher too. Add the different O.D.'s and it creates some problems where the second sand dome is attached. Although the second added sand dome was not an exact match it was actually helpful that is was a little longer sitting over the boiler so that the added covers almost stood up as straight as the front cast ones do.

               

                   I have some filing and sanding to match the front and back sand domes and covers but I think it will look decent. ( Back covers are still a little to wide. Pictures help my poor eyes see these things better.)

               

                                                                                              Jim H 

               

               



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14970 From: John H Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Photos not shpwing (Re: Slow Progress on the Beast)
              Try refreshing your computer. Not the web site, your computer. OK, what I am really saying is restart your computer. Your memory gets used up during normal usage and it may be that there is not enough memory available to open the photos. Restart and try again. Often works for me.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > that's weird.. I can see them fine.. both VintageHO & Yardbird..
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 3:21:51 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast
              >
              >  
              > They are blank on my account also.  Even the thumbnails on the incoming message
              > are blank with only a number showing.  I get the same on the yahoo site...  And
              > I do not usually have a problem with the photos...  And I have not changed
              > anything.
              > Don Staton in VA
              > =============================================================================
              >
              > On 8/25/2010 3:15 PM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              >  
              > >It might be your email / membership account settings Walter as I can see the
              > >images fine through my yahoo email account delivered email.
              > >
              > >Sean
              > > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Walter Bayer <bayerw2@...>
              > >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 3:12:27 PM
              > >Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast
              > >
              > > 
              > >Hi again Jim,
              > > 
              > >Sure enough, these photos are blanks too.
              > > 
              > >Regards,
              > >Walter
              > >-----Original Message-----
              > >From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com[mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > >jim heckard
              > >Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:05 PM
              > >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >Cc: Chuck Higdon
              > >Subject: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]
              > > 
              > > 
              > > 
              > > 
              > > 
              > > 
              > >    Have made some progress on my pet project 4-4-4-2 Mantua modified engine. I
              > >was able to add the extra boiler band and also add a second sand dome. I am now
              > >adding the covers on the sides of the sand dome.
              > > 
              > >   Since the normal Mantua Pacific boiler has two different outside diameters
              > >the front sand dome sits lower and is on a smaller O.D. The second sand dome was
              > >added on the larger O.D. ( in the area that was filled in where the two boilers
              > >were joined ) of the boiler so it sits higher then the front one. This means the
              > >sand dome covers sit higher too. Add the different O.D.'s and it creates some
              > >problems where the second sand dome is attached. Although the second added sand
              > >dome was not an exact match it was actually helpful that is was a little longer
              > >sitting over the boiler so that the added covers almost stood up as straight as
              > >the front cast ones do.
              > > 
              > >     I have some filing and sanding to match the front and back sand domes and
              > >covers but I think it will look decent. ( Back covers are still a little to
              > >wide. Pictures help my poor eyes see these things better.)
              > > 
              > >                                                                               
              > >Jim H 
              > > 
              > > 
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14971 From: John H Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Photos not showing (Re: Slow Progress on the Beast)
              Well OK.

              I corrected my spelling in the subject line and restarted my computer but still couldn't see photo #1. So I right clicked and selected "open in new window" from the drop down menu. After a few second wait, both photos open in the new window.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > Try refreshing your computer. Not the web site, your computer. OK, what I am really saying is restart your computer. Your memory gets used up during normal usage and it may be that there is not enough memory available to open the photos. Restart and try again. Often works for me.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14972 From: jim heckard Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Slow Progress on the Beast
                    I'll send everything again. I can bring the pictures up on my computer when they came back or on the Yahoo site but here goes. Ah, the computer age.
               
                                        Jim

               
               
                  Have made some progress on my pet project 4-4-4-2 Mantua modified engine. I was able to add the extra boiler band and also add a second sand dome. I am now adding the covers on the sides of the sand dome.
               
                 Since the normal Mantua Pacific boiler has two different outside diameters the front sand dome sits lower and is on a smaller O.D. The second sand dome was added on the larger O.D. ( in the area that was filled in where the two boilers were joined ) of the boiler so it sits higher then the front one. This means the sand dome covers sit higher too. Add the different O.D.'s and it creates some problems where the second sand dome is attached. Although the second added sand dome was not an exact match it was actually helpful that is was a little longer sitting over the boiler so that the added covers almost stood up as straight as the front cast ones do.
               
                   I have some filing and sanding to match the front and back sand domes and covers but I think it will look decent. ( Back covers are a little to wide. Pictures help my poor eyes see these things better.)
               
                                                                                              Jim H 
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14973 From: jim heckard Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: pictures
                      Something might be going on at Yahoo. I could view the pictures the first time and I resent for those that said they couldn't. Now I can't view this time . Will send pictures again later.
               
                                              Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14974 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: pictures
              I went to another computer, a Mac, and, at first, photo 6000 opened. 6001 did not, and now neither opens

              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14975 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]
              Hi Jim,
               
              For some reason they aren't showing up for me this time, they usually do, but all I get is the little dreaded red X!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
              Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 3:05:29 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]

               

               

               
               
                  Have made some progress on my pet project 4-4-4-2 Mantua modified engine. I was able to add the extra boiler band and also add a second sand dome. I am now adding the covers on the sides of the sand dome.
               
                 Since the normal Mantua Pacific boiler has two different outside diameters the front sand dome sits lower and is on a smaller O.D. The second sand dome was added on the larger O.D. ( in the area that was filled in where the two boilers were joined ) of the boiler so it sits higher then the front one. This means the sand dome covers sit higher too. Add the different O.D.'s and it creates some problems where the second sand dome is attached. Although the second added sand dome was not an exact match it was actually helpful that is was a little longer sitting over the boiler so that the added covers almost stood up as straight as the front cast ones do.
               
                   I have some filing and sanding to match the front and back sand domes and covers but I think it will look decent. ( Back covers are still a little to wide. Pictures help my poor eyes see these things better.)
               
                                                                                              Jim H 
               
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14976 From: jbark76 Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: American Beauty HO Aluminum C & O 85' Coach B862
              Yes, I have a set of the kits and that looks like it. Jeff
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14977 From: John H Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]
              Well hells bells,

              Donno but I got then both the second time although 6001 wouldn't display until I clicked on the "large" or "original". For some reason it wouldn't show in "medium" mode!

              If you gots an answer for that one....... forget it. I don't even want to know.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Jim,
              >
              > For some reason they aren't showing up for me this time, they usually do, but
              > all I get is the little dreaded red X!
              >
              > Gary W
              >
              >
              >  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to
              > answer life's two most important questions!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Cc: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
              > Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 3:05:29 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]
              >
              >  
              > [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
              >  
              >
              >  
              >  
              >     Have made some progress on my pet project 4-4-4-2 Mantua modified engine. I
              > was able to add the extra boiler band and also add a second sand dome. I am now
              > adding the covers on the sides of the sand dome.
              >  
              >    Since the normal Mantua Pacific boiler has two different outside diameters
              > the front sand dome sits lower and is on a smaller O.D. The second sand dome was
              > added on the larger O.D. ( in the area that was filled in where the two boilers
              > were joined ) of the boiler so it sits higher then the front one. This means the
              > sand dome covers sit higher too. Add the different O.D.'s and it creates some
              > problems where the second sand dome is attached. Although the second added sand
              > dome was not an exact match it was actually helpful that is was a little longer
              > sitting over the boiler so that the added covers almost stood up as straight as
              > the front cast ones do.
              >  
              >      I have some filing and sanding to match the front and back sand domes and
              > covers but I think it will look decent. ( Back covers are still a little to
              > wide. Pictures help my poor eyes see these things better.)
              >
              >                                                                                
              > Jim H 
              >  
              >  
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14978 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]
              Hi Jim,
               
              They showed up this time!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 4:05:18 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Slow Progress on the Beast [2 Attachments]

               

                    I'll send everything again. I can bring the pictures up on my computer when they came back or on the Yahoo site but here goes. Ah, the computer age.
               
                                        Jim

               
               
                  Have made some progress on my pet project 4-4-4-2 Mantua modified engine. I was able to add the extra boiler band and also add a second sand dome. I am now adding the covers on the sides of the sand dome.
               
                 Since the normal Mantua Pacific boiler has two different outside diameters the front sand dome sits lower and is on a smaller O.D. The second sand dome was added on the larger O.D. ( in the area that was filled in where the two boilers were joined ) of the boiler so it sits higher then the front one. This means the sand dome covers sit higher too. Add the different O.D.'s and it creates some problems where the second sand dome is attached. Although the second added sand dome was not an exact match it was actually helpful that is was a little longer sitting over the boiler so that the added covers almost stood up as straight as the front cast ones do.
               
                   I have some filing and sanding to match the front and back sand domes and covers but I think it will look decent. ( Back covers are a little to wide. Pictures help my poor eyes see these things better.)
               
                                                                                              Jim H 
               
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14979 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: UP Gas Turbine
              There was also a model by "D Peters" in the 1980's, plastic on an Athearn
              mechanism.

              Don
              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Model RailRoad Warehouse" <mrrwarehouse@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:21 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] UP Gas Turbine


              >
              > Lee Durham of St Louis imported a few of these gas turbines about 1971 in
              > painted brass, HO. Many of his imports seemed to be the same as Austin's
              > and perhaps other small importers'.
              >
              > Merle Rice
              > Model RR Warehouse
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14980 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: pictures
              Jim, Just thought I'd add to the verifications of when your pictures were
              coming through on yet another computer, for what' it's worth. I couldn't
              get any pictures the first time (just two blank squares), but I got the
              pictures the second time -- and I never have a problem receiving you pictures or
              anyone else's -- and I haven't changed any settings. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14981 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: American Beauty HO Aluminum C & O 85' Coach B862
              Neat! So different from other Am Beauty product.
              Thanks!

              On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 7:32 PM, jbark76 <jbark76@...> wrote:
               



              Yes, I have a set of the kits and that looks like it. Jeff




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14982 From: charlie@tech-j.biz Date: 8/25/2010
              Subject: Re: UP Gas Turbine
              Hi Don

              Thanks for the name of the builder of the turbine. "D Peters" I have had a look on HOSEEKER and could not find any other info.

              Has anyone spotted an ad in MR or MRC in the 80's ?

              I would like to see a photo of this HO model.

              Thanks to all

              Charlie Harris





              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              > There was also a model by "D Peters" in the 1980's, plastic on an Athearn
              > mechanism.
              >
              > Don
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14983 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 8/26/2010
              Subject: Re: UP Gas Turbine
              charlie@... wrote:
               

              Hi Don

              Thanks for the name of the builder of the turbine. "D Peters" I have had a look on HOSEEKER and could not find any other info.

              Has anyone spotted an ad in MR or MRC in the 80's ?

              I would like to see a photo of this HO model.

              Thanks to all

              Charlie Harris

              Charlie,
              Don (Dellman) posted a scanned page from a Walthers cat on 10/19/2008 - do you have access to this message? Have saved it to my harddrive.

              Also have several pictures on file, pirated from an eBay auction long ago. May send the others off list, or on list if others are ibnterested too.

              Gerold
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14984 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 8/26/2010
              Subject: Re: American Beauty HO Aluminum C & O 85' Coach B862
              Would it be possible for you to post photos of the cars in the 'set' you have? Are the cars built-up or still in kit form? How were the corrugations made/applied to the sides?

              Thanks,

              On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 7:32 PM, jbark76 <jbark76@...> wrote:
               



              Yes, I have a set of the kits and that looks like it. Jeff




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14985 From: Denny Anspach Date: 8/26/2010
              Subject: Re: American Beauty HO Aluminum C & O 85' Coach B862




              E-Bay # 150484029376. Is this really American Beauty? Any Thoughts?

              Yes, I have a set of the kits and that looks like it. Jeff


              Are you certain of this?  Documentation would be both helpful, if not also very interesting.

              I agree that there seems to be a corrugated applique of some kind below the window line, but the underlying body seems to be of extruded metal (prob aluminum per description), a type of pretty specialized  body material and expensive fabrication that seems more typical of that produced by Kasiner,  or OK Herkimer.  

              Also, the body is typical P-S (as accurate for the C&O prototype) , while the corrugations are of Budd pattern. 

              Could the applique have been from a third party supplier, OR -if indeed branded American Beauty (if so, news to me!)- could American Beauty have bought the basic car body from any of the above other manufacturers?

              Very interesting.

              Denny
                     
              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Okoboji, Iowa



              Group: vintageHO Message: 14986 From: Lawrence Date: 8/26/2010
              Subject: Dale's Aluminum Cars
              Looking at the discussion of vintage cars, I was wondering if anyone can identify the cars I have in the photo album Dale's Aluminum Cars. Are they in fact OK? When would they have been built. They (mostly) have Central Valley trucks and (possibly) salvaged Athearn trucks. Since they require decals for doors I assume someone makes appropriate decals? Anyone interested in collecting them, i.e., do they have any value at all?


              Dale in Spokane
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14987 From: Don Dellmann Date: 8/26/2010
              Subject: Re: UP Gas Turbine
              Attachments :
              The only thing I have is this scan from the 1989 Walthers catalog

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <charlie@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:43 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: UP Gas Turbine


              > Hi Don
              >
              > Thanks for the name of the builder of the turbine. "D Peters" I have
              > had a look on HOSEEKER and could not find any other info.
              >
              > Has anyone spotted an ad in MR or MRC in the 80's ?
              >
              > I would like to see a photo of this HO model.
              >
              > Thanks to all
              >
              > Charlie Harris
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> There was also a model by "D Peters" in the 1980's, plastic on an Athearn
              >> mechanism.
              >>
              >> Don
              >> Don Dellmann
              >> don.dellmann@...
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14988 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 8/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Dale's Aluminum Cars

              Hi Dale,

               

              Most of them look like Rail Chief cars to me.  Your 018 and 019 are the diner, 016 a bag/coach or smoker, 017 a coach, 008 & 010 the obs.  Your 013 shows how the doors are made by filing the ribs flat and then scribing some lines for the door details.  Your 015 is an OK car to my eye.  At my site below I have some photos of Rail Chief cars for you to review and compare if you like.

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Lawrence
              Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:32 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Dale's Aluminum Cars

               

               

              Looking at the discussion of vintage cars, I was wondering if anyone can identify the cars I have in the photo album Dale's Aluminum Cars. Are they in fact OK? When would they have been built. They (mostly) have Central Valley trucks and (possibly) salvaged Athearn trucks. Since they require decals for doors I assume someone makes appropriate decals? Anyone interested in collecting them, i.e., do they have any value at all?

              Dale in Spokane

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14989 From: jbark76 Date: 8/26/2010
              Subject: photos
              I have posted photos in the jbark76 album. First ones were bitmaps and I couldn't see them, so then I loaded jpgs. Either way hopefully something shows up. The construction is much like the other American Beauty kits, but the sides are plain dark blue. The embosed foil and lettering boards have gummy stuff on them, but I suspect they would have to be glued after 50 years or so. Jeff
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14990 From: jim heckard Date: 8/27/2010
              Subject: Beast before paint
                    
               

                      Hope these pictures come through with no problems. Sent to individuals who could view them, sent to other Yahoo site where some could see them others couldn't. Don't know why.
               
                    The Beast close to getting steam up in the boiler. Ready to paint boiler / cab and tender body. Pictures show engine sitting ( and articulating ) on 18" track. After paint shop some little details to add ( bell, whistle, jewels for lights and maybe decals ).  Buckle everything up and ready to go. It's been fun.
               
               
                                                                      Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14991 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 8/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Beast before paint [2 Attachments]
              I congratulate you on a job well done.  It turned out marvelously well!
              Don Staton in VA
              ============================================================================================

              On 8/27/2010 7:11 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

                    
               

                      Hope these pictures come through with no problems. Sent to individuals who could view them, sent to other Yahoo site where some could see them others couldn't. Don't know why.
               
                    The Beast close to getting steam up in the boiler. Ready to paint boiler / cab and tender body. Pictures show engine sitting ( and articulating ) on 18" track. After paint shop some little details to add ( bell, whistle, jewels for lights and maybe decals ).  Buckle everything up and ready to go. It's been fun.
               
               
                                                                      Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14992 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 8/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Beast before paint
              replying to set address in new confuser.  gj

              Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 5:54 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Beast before paint

              I congratulate you on a job well done.  It turned out marvelously well!
              Don Staton in VA
              ============================================================================================

              On 8/27/2010 7:11 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

                    
               

                      Hope these pictures come through with no problems. Sent to individuals who could view them, sent to other Yahoo site where some could see them others couldn't. Don't know why.
               
                    The Beast close to getting steam up in the boiler. Ready to paint boiler / cab and tender body. Pictures show engine sitting ( and articulating ) on 18" track. After paint shop some little details to add ( bell, whistle, jewels for lights and maybe decals ).  Buckle everything up and ready to go. It's been fun.
               
               
                                                                      Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14993 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Beast before paint [2 Attachments]
              Looks great Jim!

              Even on my cell phone. 

              Sean

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Aug 27, 2010, at 7:11 PM, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:

               

                    
               

                      Hope these pictures come through with no problems. Sent to individuals who could view them, sent to other Yahoo site where some could see them others couldn't. Don't know why.
               
                    The Beast close to getting steam up in the boiler. Ready to paint boiler / cab and tender body. Pictures show engine sitting ( and articulating ) on 18" track. After paint shop some little details to add ( bell, whistle, jewels for lights and maybe decals ).  Buckle everything up and ready to go. It's been fun.
               
               
                                                                      Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 14994 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Beast before paint [2 Attachments]
              Looks real good, Jim. It's a hugh improvement over the "coke-bottle" it
              once was. Congrats on your craftsmanship. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14995 From: jim heckard Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
               

               
               
                    Maybe the last of the "Beast" pictures ( a collective hallelujah ). The paint will have to harden a number of days before adding bell, whistle and jewels. Still don't know about decals at this point.
               
                                                                  Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14996 From: tom leen Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]
              Hey Jim,
              Looks great!!
              Tom

              --- On Sat, 8/28/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, August 28, 2010, 6:53 PM

               
               

               
               
                    Maybe the last of the "Beast" pictures ( a collective hallelujah ). The paint will have to harden a number of days before adding bell, whistle and jewels. Still don't know about decals at this point.
               
                                                                  Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14997 From: rcjge Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
              Hey Fella's:

              Can anyone tell me if the original Pittman "Bride & Groom" is plastic or Aluminium or what?

              Thanks,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 14998 From: jim heckard Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
                 They were plastic HObbyline passenger car bodies. A combine and a coach. 3 pages about them on hoseeker under Pittman..
               
                                               Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:47 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?

               

              Hey Fella's:

              Can anyone tell me if the original Pittman "Bride & Groom" is plastic or Aluminium or what?

              Thanks,
              Gareth

              Group: vintageHO Message: 14999 From: George Frey Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
              i belive its in flesh lol
               

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group                                                  

               




              From: rcjge <jgpedwards@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 2:47:41 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?

               

              Hey Fella's:

              Can anyone tell me if the original Pittman "Bride & Groom" is plastic or Aluminium or what?

              Thanks,
              Gareth


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15000 From: Roger Aultman Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
              The one I had was plastic it looked like John English passenger bodies were used. 
              Roger Aultman
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 4:47 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?

               

              Hey Fella's:

              Can anyone tell me if the original Pittman "Bride & Groom" is plastic or Aluminium or what?

              Thanks,
              Gareth

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15001 From: Richard White Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]
              Jim- The "Beast" is incredible! Are you going to add a number plate to the boiler front? For what road will you decal it? And I see that the tender is equipped with a Devore coupler- that's period appropriate all right! Regards- Richard White 

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: jimheck@...
              Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:53:01 -0400
              Subject: [vintageHO] Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]

               
              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
               

               
               
                    Maybe the last of the "Beast" pictures ( a collective hallelujah ). The paint will have to harden a number of days before adding bell, whistle and jewels. Still don't know about decals at this point.
               
                                                                  Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15002 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]
              Hi Jim,
               
              Just like most women, she looks great in black!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 2:53:01 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]

               

               

               
               
                    Maybe the last of the "Beast" pictures ( a collective hallelujah ). The paint will have to harden a number of days before adding bell, whistle and jewels. Still don't know about decals at this point.
               
                                                                  Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15003 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
              The B&G by Pittman was always plastic. The John English cars it descended
              from were Zamak. No Aluminum. gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "rcjge" <jgpedwards@...>
              Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 2:47 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?

              > Hey Fella's:
              >
              > Can anyone tell me if the original Pittman "Bride & Groom" is plastic or
              > Aluminium or what?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15004 From: rcjge Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Pittman Bride & Groom Plastic?
              Perhaps I saw Pair of the Zamak JE units done up as a B&G? Would explain my confusion! Well actually double-digit Concussions in my youth really would but ...

              Thanks for clearing that up guys!

              -Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <glenn476@...> wrote:
              >
              > The B&G by Pittman was always plastic. The John English cars it descended
              > from were Zamak. No Aluminum. gj
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15005 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]

              Jim:

              Now that is a good looking locomotive.  I've been quietly watching this progress and you did a really good job.  It has real charactor.

              Cheers,
              Dennis Thompson
              Odessa/Ritzville, WA




              At 11:53 AM 8/28/2010, you wrote:
              [ Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]

               

               
               
                    Maybe the last of the "Beast" pictures ( a collective hallelujah ). The paint will have to harden a number of days before adding bell, whistle and jewels. Still don't know about decals at this point.
               
                                                                  Jim H

              Attachment(s) from jim heckard

              4 of 4 Photo(s)
              IMG_6021_1.JPG
              IMG_6021_1.JPG
              IMG_6023_2.JPG
              IMG_6023_2.JPG
              IMG_6024_3.JPG
              IMG_6024_3.JPG
              IMG_6025_4.JPG
              IMG_6025_4.JPG

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15006 From: Sean Naylor Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
              Absolutly... And the less material worn the better..
               
              um.. I guess that doesn't quite apply to Jim's precious "Beast"
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 7:56:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Maybe last Beast pictures ?

               

              Hi Jim,
               
              Just like most women, she looks great in black!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 2:53:01 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]

               

               

               
               
                    Maybe the last of the "Beast" pictures ( a collective hallelujah ). The paint will have to harden a number of days before adding bell, whistle and jewels. Still don't know about decals at this point.
               
                                                                  Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15007 From: Gary Woodard Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
              Hi Sean,
               
               
              Well! Maybe a few more details on "The Beast" would be okay!LOL
               
              Gary W

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 10:28:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Maybe last Beast pictures ?

               

              Absolutly... And the less material worn the better..
               
              um.. I guess that doesn't quite apply to Jim's precious "Beast"
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 7:56:17 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Maybe last Beast pictures ?

               

              Hi Jim,
               
              Just like most women, she looks great in black!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 2:53:01 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Maybe last Beast pictures ? [4 Attachments]

               

               

               
               
                    Maybe the last of the "Beast" pictures ( a collective hallelujah ). The paint will have to harden a number of days before adding bell, whistle and jewels. Still don't know about decals at this point.
               
                                                                  Jim H



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15008 From: jim heckard Date: 8/28/2010
              Subject: Thanks for the responses
              To All,
               
                     It's been fun rebuilding this previously modified engine to work and look better. Would like to know the person who came up with the idea for it in the first place. I can't take credit for that.
               
               Appreciate all the comments especially lately from Tom L, Gary W, Dennis T and good friend Sean N.
               
               To Richard W.   Just a little to late for that number plate. As for favorite R R's I like about possible decaling. I like Pennsy and Reading ( using delux gold with added pin stripping details ) and the New York Central. Having played around on another steam engine with the NYC diesel Lightning Stripes I am toying with using some kind of scheme on the tender. No prototype and it is a fantasy engine. And the Devore couplers are on the front and back of my engine. I have a number of them and they don't work to bad. ( Unlike KD no little springs to lose )  After all I am a vintage collector.
               
                 
               
                                                Jim H
               
               
               
                
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15009 From: midpoint37 Date: 8/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Thanks for the responses
              Jim,
              I've been following your rebuild of the "Beast" with much interest. Thank you for sharing your adventure. This thing should be pulling heavyweight passenger cars on the New York to Chicago run at 100 mph. Congratulations for a nice piece of work.

              John Webster

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > To All,
              >
              > It's been fun rebuilding this previously modified engine to work and look better. Would like to know the person who came up with the idea for it in the first place. I can't take credit for that.
              >
              > Appreciate all the comments especially lately from Tom L, Gary W, Dennis T and good friend Sean N.
              >
              > To Richard W. Just a little to late for that number plate. As for favorite R R's I like about possible decaling. I like Pennsy and Reading ( using delux gold with added pin stripping details ) and the New York Central. Having played around on another steam engine with the NYC diesel Lightning Stripes I am toying with using some kind of scheme on the tender. No prototype and it is a fantasy engine. And the Devore couplers are on the front and back of my engine. I have a number of them and they don't work to bad. ( Unlike KD no little springs to lose ) After all I am a vintage collector.
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15010 From: Matthew Date: 8/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
              Jim,

              You have done such a good job that in 50 years our model collector descendants will be arguing over whether this was a production Varney Model or a special built Factory prototype because it certainly wasn't a kitbash or anything like that!

              Nice work!

              Matt Coleman

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:

              > Maybe the last of the "Beast" pictures ( a collective hallelujah ). The paint will have to harden a number of days before adding bell, whistle and jewels. Still don't know about decals at this point.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15011 From: jim heckard Date: 8/29/2010
              Subject: Fantasy Classification and Decals
               
               

                       A lot of people have asked me what classification, name and decals I would put on my odd new engine. After a little thought I have decided on a make believe New York Central steam engine.
               
                 Pictures will show I have already fooled around with one steam engine I have, a Rivarossi 4-6-4 Hudson. Other picture is a Bachmann 4-8-4 Niagara tender.  I might even think of using the Lightning Stripe Band NYC used on diesels.
               
                 Seems like NYC liked using areas or Indian tribes from New York State like  Hudson, Niagara, Mohawk and so forth. 
               
                 So I have decided to classify, number and decal my engine the        XP-1   4-4-4-2   Mohican
               
              X for experimental.   P for Passenger.   1 for only one.    Mohican for not the last of the Indian tribe but the first of a new breed. 
               
                ( Reading and Pennsy both lost out and would have had deluxe gold stripes and been called the XC-1 Anthracite.  C for coal  Anthracite as I live in the heart of what was the Anthracite hard coal area. ).
               
                 How's that for dreaming ?  Freedom to do whatever.
               
                                                                 Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15012 From: Nelson B Date: 8/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
              Who knows? Maybe it will show up on eBay someday with a starting bid of $20,000 and a long fish tale about it's origins.

              Really beautiful work, Jim. When I saw the original sorry state I never dreamt you'd turn it into this. Well done!

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jim,
              >
              > You have done such a good job that in 50 years our model collector descendants will be arguing over whether this was a production Varney Model or a special built Factory prototype because it certainly wasn't a kitbash or anything like that!
              >
              > Nice work!
              >
              > Matt Coleman
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15013 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 8/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
              With the photos and documentation of the rebuild it may be worth that to someone.
               Although I understand what it is worth to you Jim and wouldn't part with it.
               I have quite a few locos I have built that I couldn't part with for any price.
               Beautiful job Jim, Thanks for sharing the build.

              --- On Sun, 8/29/10, Nelson B <greenbrier614@...> wrote:

              From: Nelson B <greenbrier614@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, August 29, 2010, 7:21 PM

              Who knows? Maybe it will show up on eBay someday with a starting bid of $20,000 and a long fish tale about it's origins.

              Really beautiful work, Jim. When I saw the original sorry state I never dreamt you'd turn it into this. Well done!

              Nelson


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15014 From: VtHam Date: 8/29/2010
              Subject: Thanks for the responses
              Jim you've done an outstanding job with your "beast". I have been looking forward to your posts each day since your first message about her. If this is one of the last messages about your engine, it will be like a good book coming to an end. I hope you find more to write about, like how it runs, what motor your used, detailing, what railroad name she'll be wearing, etc., etc. Thanks for sharing your beast with us all.
              Richard in Vermont
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15015 From: jim heckard Date: 8/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?
                   Nelson B,
                
               Yeah I know this guy in Australia that has this rare Varney Duplex and might want to buy my engine to go with it because we all know Mantua produced a number of these 4-4-4-2 engines   ( tongue in check ).
               
                                                                           Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson B
              Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 10:21 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Maybe last Beast pictures ?

               

              Who knows? Maybe it will show up on eBay someday with a starting bid of $20,000 and a long fish tale about it's origins.

              Really beautiful work, Jim. When I saw the original sorry state I never dreamt you'd turn it into this. Well done!

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jim,
              >
              > You have done such a good job that in 50 years our model collector descendants will be arguing over whether this was a production Varney Model or a special built Factory prototype because it certainly wasn't a kitbash or anything like that!
              >
              > Nice work!
              >
              > Matt Coleman

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15016 From: fchlupptrains Date: 8/30/2010
              Subject: Globe tank car parts wanted
              Hi All - Have enoyed reading group posts for some time and need some help !! Need two Globe tankcar end, two globe dome collars and a good metal frame to finish a tanker I have. Can anyone help?? Thanks much!Fred
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15017 From: RalphB Date: 8/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Fantasy Classification and Decals
              Jim,

              Yours is not an unusual idea at all. There's a fellow up in my area (New York's Capital District) who refuses to admit the NYC has gone away. He has some very modern diesels, including a DDA40X, done up in two-tone gray lightning stripes.

              Ralph B

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jim Heckard wrote:
              >
              > A lot of people have asked me what classification, name and decals I would put on my odd new engine. After a little thought I have decided on a make believe New York Central steam engine.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15018 From: Joe Date: 8/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Fantasy Classification and Decals
              Ralph...
              If the "stripes" are decals - what is the source.
              Joe O'Loughlin

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jim,
              >
              > Yours is not an unusual idea at all. There's a fellow up in my area (New York's Capital District) who refuses to admit the NYC has gone away. He has some very modern diesels, including a DDA40X, done up in two-tone gray lightning stripes.
              >
              > Ralph B
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jim Heckard wrote:
              > >
              > > A lot of people have asked me what classification, name and decals I would put on my odd new engine. After a little thought I have decided on a make believe New York Central steam engine.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15019 From: jim heckard Date: 8/30/2010
              Subject: The search is on
              Attachments :
               
               
                    As a vintage collector I am always on the lookout for missing items, especially rare and hard to find, for my collection. The picture I sent, if it can be viewed, is taken from a glossy photo given to me by a fellow vintage collector and past member of the now defunct HOSC&H-SIG group Mr. Frank Bell Jr.  It is the only assembled and running engine I have ever seen. It is a pre war ( 1938-1939 ) cast brass/ bronze Conover 2-10-2 copied from a B&O prototype.
               
                  I was very fortunate to just receive a fairly complete engine with tender unassembled kit from Mr. Dan Bush of Yardbird Classic Trains. I am going to be actively searching for missing parts which will be an extremely hard to do even if it means buying a second engine / tender to get certain parts. Anyone having parts or even another engine can contact me off site at jimheck@....  If you are unsure that you might have Conover parts you can go to hoseeker under Conover and there is a catalog provided by member Ray F W that shows the engine and separate parts.
               
                 While I haven't listed exactly which parts yet I will be searching for a Mantua 6 volt Alinco pre war motor which was used in this Conover engine. ( Actually I need two of these early Mantua motors since I have a pre war Mantua 2-8-0 Consolidation that needs a motor also ).
               
                I don't know if this Conover engine will ever get built as it is not very easy to do for two reasons. All the parts must be filed and drilled first before assembly can even start and that will not be easy as it is  very hard castings to work with. Second construction is also hard to do. For those that know how hard a Winton Allegheny is to build I've been told this Conover is much harder.
               
                                                                      Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15020 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 8/31/2010
              Subject: Re: [Fantasy Classification and Decals
              In a message dated 8/30/2010 10:13 A.M. EDT, Joe O'Loughlin wrote:
              If the "stripes" are decals - what is the source.
              Sorry, Joe, but I don't know.  I would guess the fellow has a stash that he's picked up over the years at the LHS.
               
              Ralph B

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15021 From: Nelson B Date: 8/31/2010
              Subject: Re: Fantasy Classification and Decals
              That's brilliant, Jim. All along I've been thinking of how this could be a Pennsy competitor's answer to the Duplexes, so making it NYC is perfect. The Adirondacks have always been near and dear to my heart, and the names the NYC used for it's motive power are very familiar to me, so that name seems like a natural.

              And you can honestly say it is the first and last of the Mohicans.

              Nelson



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > A lot of people have asked me what classification, name and decals I would put on my odd new engine. After a little thought I have decided on a make believe New York Central steam engine.
              >
              > Pictures will show I have already fooled around with one steam engine I have, a Rivarossi 4-6-4 Hudson. Other picture is a Bachmann 4-8-4 Niagara tender. I might even think of using the Lightning Stripe Band NYC used on diesels.
              >
              > Seems like NYC liked using areas or Indian tribes from New York State like Hudson, Niagara, Mohawk and so forth.
              >
              > So I have decided to classify, number and decal my engine the XP-1 4-4-4-2 Mohican
              >
              > X for experimental. P for Passenger. 1 for only one. Mohican for not the last of the Indian tribe but the first of a new breed.
              >
              > ( Reading and Pennsy both lost out and would have had deluxe gold stripes and been called the XC-1 Anthracite. C for coal Anthracite as I live in the heart of what was the Anthracite hard coal area. ).
              >
              > How's that for dreaming ? Freedom to do whatever.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15022 From: jim heckard Date: 8/31/2010
              Subject: Re: [Fantasy Classification and Decals
                 Joe
               
               If you are asking about the New York Central Stripes I will be using they come from Microscale Decals sets from Calif.  You can go to there web site to search the number of the set. I think it is www.microscale.com
               
                                                         Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 5:11 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: [Fantasy Classification and Decals

               

              In a message dated 8/30/2010 10:13 A.M. EDT, Joe O'Loughlin wrote:
              If the "stripes" are decals - what is the source.
              Sorry, Joe, but I don't know.  I would guess the fellow has a stash that he's picked up over the years at the LHS.
               
              Ralph B

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15023 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 8/31/2010
              Subject: Re: Fantasy Classification and Decals [2 Attachments]
              Jim, You don't need to feel that a paint scheme lifted from a diesel would
              look out of place on a steam engine. Just remember what the Reading T-1
              #2101 was painted up as when it was used for the Chessie Steam Specials. The
              engine skirts were painted red and yellow, with that scheme carrying back
              through to the tender -- its sides mostly yellow (still with the red on top)
              and a large Chessie Cat emblem on the sides, as would be found on a Chessie
              diesel engine nose. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15024 From: Joe Date: 9/1/2010
              Subject: Re: [Fantasy Classification and Decals
              Jim...
              Microscale had what I was looking for.
              Thanks,
              Joe O'Loughlin

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Joe
              >
              > If you are asking about the New York Central Stripes I will be using they come from Microscale Decals sets from Calif. You can go to there web site to search the number of the set. I think it is www.microscale.com
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Alpvalsys@...
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 5:11 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: [Fantasy Classification and Decals
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 8/30/2010 10:13 A.M. EDT, Joe O'Loughlin wrote:
              > If the "stripes" are decals - what is the source.
              > Sorry, Joe, but I don't know. I would guess the fellow has a stash that he's picked up over the years at the LHS.
              >
              > Ralph B
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15025 From: Russ Shiel Date: 9/2/2010
              Subject: Bee-Jay models
              H'lo all...a quick query for the historians...I've had a look on HO-Seeker, but
              without success...not looking in the right place, as I'm sure it's probably
              there somewhere!

              Bee-Jay models, wood/diecast HO kits produced by Walthers Specialties Inc, 4749
              N. Diversey Blvd, Milwaukee 2, Wis.


              Two Bee-Jay reefer kits were part of an estate batch recently arrived. I just
              sent the build sheet from kit #8801 off to Larry at HO-Seeker.

              Can anyone help with dating these for me, pls? I don't know when Walthers were
              at the above address, but it should place them in that time period.

              Chrs, Russ in stormy Adelaide.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15026 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Bee-Jay models
              Hi Russ, Initially, there were 3 different reefers in this Bee-Jay series
              -- Robin Hood Beer FBX 5300, Columbia Soups CKMX 7501and Swift SRLX 6307 --
              all oddly enough cataloged as # 8801. They are advertised as NEW in
              Walthers 1961 catalog. Incidentally, I have all three of them. Walthers also
              offered structure kits cataloged as Bee-Jay, too -- noted in the same catalog
              -- and noted also as NEW for 1961. These reefer kits were also advertised in
              this same catalog as having "Screen Processed Sides."

              While I don't have every Walthers catalog, I no longer see the cars
              cataloged as being "Bee-Jay" kits from 1964 on up -- even though there were now 6
              "Screen Processed Sides" reefer kits STILL in the same single catalog number
              -- # 8801 --but now with suffixes (A,D,E,F,G and H), plus a 8801-P Undec,
              with yellow sides. These same kits were available through 1967, but are not
              seen in 1969.

              I'm presuming that with Walthers' plans to add other different kits to this
              line, that they may have re-cataloged the Columbia Soups as # 8801-B and
              the Swifts as # 8801-C sometime after 1961, as that would seem logical. These
              two kits ae no longer found in the 1964 catalog though. The addtional
              (new) kits as seen in 1964 are:

              8801-D Couwen's Onions TTGX 7601
              8801-E Peerless Beer NX 3060
              8801-F Kahn's Beef EKSX 1081
              8801-G D&B (Dingfelder & Balish) Onions DABX 6609
              8801-H Pelican Butter FCKX 6300

              The Bee-Jay structure kits were produced from 1961 through 1971, and while
              these same structures were still produced from at least 1973, on, they were
              no longer cataloged as "Bee-Jay" in that year.

              Ray F.W,</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15027 From: jbark76 Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Re: The search is on
              I have a set of bronze castings from the 50's that make a similar engine (B&O S-1). I've posted photos in the jbark76 album. I have the instruction sheets that were made for it and somewhere I have the name of the person who had them made. I was told there were 50 sets that included the boiler, boiler front, frame, steam chest, tender body and frame. Comercial wheels and other details were to be used to finish it.
              -Jeff-
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15028 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Re: The search is on
              Jeff,
              I fear that you are the latest victim of the Yahoo disappearing pictures syndrome. Your pictures have gone into the nebulous aether.

              On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 3:04 PM, jbark76 <jbark76@...> wrote:
               


              I have a set of bronze castings from the 50's that make a similar engine (B&O S-1). I've posted photos in the jbark76 album. I have the instruction sheets that were made for it and somewhere I have the name of the person who had them made. I was told there were 50 sets that included the boiler, boiler front, frame, steam chest, tender body and frame. Comercial wheels and other details were to be used to finish it.
              -Jeff-




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15029 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Re: The search is on
              Hi Jeff,
               
                   Any chance you could send those 4 pictures of the bronze S-1 castings direct to me at jimheck@... . The pictures only show ups X's that I can't see. Tried new photos and your jbark album. No luck either place. Don't know if others can view or not. This is what was happening to some of my attachments that I was sending.
               
                  If you have an instruction sheet it would be a good thing to send to Larry Stevenson / hoseeker  to be put on his site.
               
                                                                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jbark76
              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The search is on

               


              I have a set of bronze castings from the 50's that make a similar engine (B&O S-1). I've posted photos in the jbark76 album. I have the instruction sheets that were made for it and somewhere I have the name of the person who had them made. I was told there were 50 sets that included the boiler, boiler front, frame, steam chest, tender body and frame. Comercial wheels and other details were to be used to finish it.
              -Jeff-

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15030 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Re: The search is on
              Go to his album as mentioned.  Click on the S1a in the last frame that shows no thumbnail photo.  When that comes up click on large photo size.  I viewed all four photos that way.
              Don Staton in VA.
              ====================================================================================================

              On 9/3/2010 3:46 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

              Hi Jeff,
               
                   Any chance you could send those 4 pictures of the bronze S-1 castings direct to me at jimheck@... . The pictures only show ups X's that I can't see. Tried new photos and your jbark album. No luck either place. Don't know if others can view or not. This is what was happening to some of my attachments that I was sending.
               
                  If you have an instruction sheet it would be a good thing to send to Larry Stevenson / hoseeker  to be put on his site.
               
                                                                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jbark76
              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The search is on

               


              I have a set of bronze castings from the 50's that make a similar engine (B&O S-1). I've posted photos in the jbark76 album. I have the instruction sheets that were made for it and somewhere I have the name of the person who had them made. I was told there were 50 sets that included the boiler, boiler front, frame, steam chest, tender body and frame. Comercial wheels and other details were to be used to finish it.
              -Jeff-

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15031 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Re: The search is on
              Don S,
               
                 I go to his album.There are four pictures each with an X in them.  S1 a,b,c and d  Clicking on d gives me a picture of a tender. At the bottom is 4 blanks. Clicking on them gives me nothing. Clicking on the tender picture gives me nothing.
               
                                                                                    Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 4:16 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: The search is on

               

              Go to his album as mentioned.  Click on the S1a in the last frame that shows no thumbnail photo.  When that comes up click on large photo size.  I viewed all four photos that way.
              Don Staton in VA.
              ====================================================================================================

              On 9/3/2010 3:46 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

              Hi Jeff,
               
                   Any chance you could send those 4 pictures of the bronze S-1 castings direct to me at jimheck@... . The pictures only show ups X's that I can't see. Tried new photos and your jbark album. No luck either place. Don't know if others can view or not. This is what was happening to some of my attachments that I was sending.
               
                  If you have an instruction sheet it would be a good thing to send to Larry Stevenson / hoseeker  to be put on his site.
               
                                                                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jbark76
              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The search is on

               


              I have a set of bronze castings from the 50's that make a similar engine (B&O S-1). I've posted photos in the jbark76 album. I have the instruction sheets that were made for it and somewhere I have the name of the person who had them made. I was told there were 50 sets that included the boiler, boiler front, frame, steam chest, tender body and frame. Comercial wheels and other details were to be used to finish it.
              -Jeff-

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15032 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Re: The search is on
              Don is right. I tried his suggestion, and it worked. Thanks, Don.

              On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote:
               

              Go to his album as mentioned.  Click on the S1a in the last frame that shows no thumbnail photo.  When that comes up click on large photo size.  I viewed all four photos that way.
              Don Staton in VA.
              ====================================================================================================

              On 9/3/2010 3:46 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

              Hi Jeff,
               
                   Any chance you could send those 4 pictures of the bronze S-1 castings direct to me at jimheck@... . The pictures only show ups X's that I can't see. Tried new photos and your jbark album. No luck either place. Don't know if others can view or not. This is what was happening to some of my attachments that I was sending.
               
                  If you have an instruction sheet it would be a good thing to send to Larry Stevenson / hoseeker  to be put on his site.
               
                                                                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jbark76
              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The search is on

               


              I have a set of bronze castings from the 50's that make a similar engine (B&O S-1). I've posted photos in the jbark76 album. I have the instruction sheets that were made for it and somewhere I have the name of the person who had them made. I was told there were 50 sets that included the boiler, boiler front, frame, steam chest, tender body and frame. Comercial wheels and other details were to be used to finish it.
              -Jeff-




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15033 From: John H Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Re: The search is on
              This has to be problem with Yahoo and I wish they'd get it fixed! It is happening to too many people on too many groups to be a problem with your own computer.

              That being said, I did get to view all four photos eventually by just letting the web page open (I used other window to surf elsewhere) for some time and then going back and clicking on the photos and going to large, original, medium and back and forth and a suddenly all four worked. PIA but it can be done with patience and perseverance.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Don S,
              >
              > I go to his album.There are four pictures each with an X in them. S1 a,b,c and d Clicking on d gives me a picture of a tender. At the bottom is 4 blanks. Clicking on them gives me nothing. Clicking on the tender picture gives me nothing.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15034 From: Garry Spear Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: FS: MANTUA Sinclair tank Car, Paper Wrapper, Winton 2-6-6-6
              Thinning my vintage HO collection. For sale Mantua Sinclair tank car,
              paper wrapper. Car appears to be complete, needs painting touch up.
              Price 14.00 + 5 shipping.
              Photos
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985b.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985c.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985d.jpg

              A Winton 2-6-6-6, needs work, mostly complete, scratch built tender.
              Price 75.00 or best offer + 20.00 shipping (yes, it's that heavy; over
              5 lbs. with the shipping and packing.).
              Photos
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986b.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986c.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986d.jpg

              These will be listed Sunday evening on eBay if there are no takers.

              I currently have 7 Silver Streak kits, 1 Main Line kit and an AMBROID
              1 of 5000 MATHIESON DRY ICE ASSEMBLED Car on eBay.

              http://shop.ebay.com/garlen/m.html

              Local Pickup, no shipping, can be arranged in the Phila. PA Area.

              Garry Spear
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15035 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Re: FS: MANTUA Sinclair tank Car, Paper Wrapper, Winton 2-6-6-6
              Gary S,
               
                  Interested in the Mantua Sinclair tanker if no one else has claimed it. Contact me off site with your address and I will mail you a check at jimheck@...
               
                                                               Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 5:17 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] FS: MANTUA Sinclair tank Car, Paper Wrapper, Winton 2-6-6-6

               

              Thinning my vintage HO collection. For sale Mantua Sinclair tank car,
              paper wrapper. Car appears to be complete, needs painting touch up.
              Price 14.00 + 5 shipping.
              Photos
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985b.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985c.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985d.jpg

              A Winton 2-6-6-6, needs work, mostly complete, scratch built tender.
              Price 75.00 or best offer + 20.00 shipping (yes, it's that heavy; over
              5 lbs. with the shipping and packing.).
              Photos
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986b.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986c.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986d.jpg

              These will be listed Sunday evening on eBay if there are no takers.

              I currently have 7 Silver Streak kits, 1 Main Line kit and an AMBROID
              1 of 5000 MATHIESON DRY ICE ASSEMBLED Car on eBay.

              http://shop.ebay.com/garlen/m.html

              Local Pickup, no shipping, can be arranged in the Phila. PA Area.

              Garry Spear

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15036 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: open pix
              Don S,
               
                  Finally was able to open all pictures after I finally found the LARGE to click on.
               
                                                                        Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15037 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Conover S-1
               
                       The pictures Jeff B sent ( that I finally got opened ) has kind of opened a possible story concerning the original Conover S-1 made in 1938 ( check out the Conover catalog on hoseeker sent in by Ray F W ) and a possible re issue or a kind of knock off made around 1950 from information Jeff B has.
               
                  The original Conover castings were not very smooth, kind of a rough pitted look, and had large "sprues" that were hack sawed off. These are the parts I just got and which I believe are from the original 1938 kit.
               
                  The pictures Jeff sent of his the castings are very smooth. Everything, every detail, looks exactly the same as if the same molds were used even to the sides of the cab being sheet brass parts. It will be interesting to try to get all the info available to find out the whole story.
               
                                                            Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15038 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Re: FS: MANTUA Sinclair tank Car, Paper Wrapper, Winton 2-6-6-6
              Gary 
              I may be inclined to purchase the winton. 
              Sean

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Sep 3, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Garry Spear <garrettspear@...> wrote:

               

              Thinning my vintage HO collection. For sale Mantua Sinclair tank car,
              paper wrapper. Car appears to be complete, needs painting touch up.
              Price 14.00 + 5 shipping.
              Photos
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985b.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985c.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985d.jpg

              A Winton 2-6-6-6, needs work, mostly complete, scratch built tender.
              Price 75.00 or best offer + 20.00 shipping (yes, it's that heavy; over
              5 lbs. with the shipping and packing.).
              Photos
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986b.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986c.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986d.jpg

              These will be listed Sunday evening on eBay if there are no takers.

              I currently have 7 Silver Streak kits, 1 Main Line kit and an AMBROID
              1 of 5000 MATHIESON DRY ICE ASSEMBLED Car on eBay.

              http://shop.ebay.com/garlen/m.html

              Local Pickup, no shipping, can be arranged in the Phila. PA Area.

              Garry Spear


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15039 From: jim heckard Date: 9/3/2010
              Subject: Original Conover -1 castings
               
              Jeff , All,
               
                   Sending some pictures of the original sand castings from the Conover S-1 2-10-2 made in 1938. Hope they can been seen.
               
                  If you look at all the pictures you will notice the surface is not as smooth as the pictures Jeff B sent of an S-1 that looks identical made around 1950. You will also see the heavy "sprues" that had to be cut to get the pieces of the "tree" especially the last picture that is the bottom of the tender. It is because of these two things that this engine was hard to build and very labor intensive.
               
                 I have dug up the name Fred Farrar from Massachusetts as the person who bought the original sand casting molds and left over stock from Conover. This might be the person who produced the smoother pieces for the engine Jeff B has. Have not found out the name they were produced under but supposedly there is an article in a magazine ( which one I don't know ).
               
                Maybe Jeff BE can provide this from paperwork he has. Very interesting.
               
                                                                                             Jim H
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15040 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 9/4/2010
              Subject: Another of the what is it questions
              I got this in a group of stuff, but have not idea what it is for.  The package is labeled Walthers, E202 Mounting Plate for E201.  So I guess the real question is, what is an E201, since we know what I have is the mounting plate for it.  Any ideas?
               
              Kent Hurley
              Kansas City, MO


              Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15041 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Another of the what is it questions [2 Attachments]
              It looks like a mounting plate for a multiple position lever switch with a short flat metal handle through the panel.
              Don Staton in VA
              =====================================================================================

              On 9/4/2010 11:32 AM, nvrr49@... wrote:
               
              I got this in a group of stuff, but have not idea what it is for.  The package is labeled Walthers, E202 Mounting Plate for E201.  So I guess the real question is, what is an E201, since we know what I have is the mounting plate for it.  Any ideas?
               
              Kent Hurley
              Kansas City, MO

              Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15042 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Another of the what is it questions [2 Attachments]
              It would have helped  if you had taken the plate out of the package---as I recall, the "E-201" was a toggle key that offered a couple of types of contacts to operate twin-coil and possibly rotary switch machines.  The plate had slots and mounting holes in it.  Might be handy  if you need a piece of aluminum sheet with a slot and two holes in it.
               
              gj

              From: nvrr49@...
              Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 8:32 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Another of the what is it questions [2 Attachments]

              I got this in a group of stuff, but have not idea what it is for.  The package is labeled Walthers, E202 Mounting Plate for E201.  So I guess the real question is, what is an E201, since we know what I have is the mounting plate for it.  Any ideas?
               
              Kent Hurley
              Kansas City, MO


              Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15043 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Another of the what is it questions [2 Attachments]
              Kent, The Walthers # 201 is listed in the first catalog I happened to pick
              up just now -- the 1971 copy. It's cataloged as: LEVER SWITCHES (Special)
              -- With 3 sets of contacts - DPDT (Center-off), SPDT (Momentary) and SPDT
              (Locking).

              It's described as --

              It's a special toggle key for the 3 sets of contacts (all of which may be
              used at the same time) for:
              1.) SPDT - Momentary contacts for switch machine operation. Position of
              handle indicates position of switch machine.
              2.) SPDT - Hold contacts for indicator lights, Signal, Route Controls or
              Accesories.
              3.) DPDT - Hold contacts for Reversing, Track Circuit Control, etc.
              (Center position is off).

              Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15044 From: nvrr49 Date: 9/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Another of the what is it questions [2 Attachments]
              Now that we know what it is, anybody need it? I will throw it in an envelope if anyone needs it.

              Kent in KC
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15045 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 9/7/2010
              Subject: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15046 From: jim heckard Date: 9/7/2010
              Subject: Beast update
               
               

               
               
                    Since things are rather quiet on the site I am posting 3 pix with a little update on my odd Mantua engine. I have everything buckled up, put the motor back in, added head and tail lights ( jewels ), added coal to bunker, put bell back on, and had it running for a little while as I wait for a set of New York Central Microscale Cab Diesel decals to arrive to add a fantasy decal job. ( Sorry Sean I should have had it running when you came )
               
                                                   Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15047 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 9/7/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              The "National Toy Train" museum is operated by the "Train Collectors Association" or "TCA".  (I'm a member by the way.)  The focus is on tinplate trains which means mainly O gauge and Lionel et. al., and also earlier "standard" gauge "pre war" larger toy trains, and some S gauge American Flyer, even a little Lionel OO, and probably some other stuff, too.  I'm surprised there was any HO there at all unless it was Lionel or American Flyer.
               
              I have been to Strasburg quite a few times.  GREAT place to visit.  I would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up.  And I think non-train fans also enjoy themselves very much.
               
              If anybody goes there, find the place (or maybe it is one of the places) with "family dining" where they seat you with a lot of strangers at a big table.  Then they bring out platters and bowls full of food and keep it coming.  (Not a good place for dieters.)  And it's fun chatting with the other tourists.
               
              Incidentally, nearby Kinzers, PA (used to be called Kinzer, PA) is named after a relative of mine.  It is a meeting place for steam traction engine aficionados.  (See http://www.roughandtumble.org/)  If you visit something like their "Spring Steam Up", you can combine that with all the stuff in Strasburg and really get your money's worth.  Apparently they also have some of a shay going there, but I'm not familiar with it.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15048 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              The National Toy Train museum does have a decent collection of catalogs, manuals and other literature, Lionel and AF, of course, but also HO, such as Mantua, Varney, Penn Line, etc., that can keep you drooling for hours.

              Seems to me that the HO layout in not limited to Gilbert and Lionel equipment, but perhaps someone out there can elaborate for the rest of us. I was taken there by a neighbor and TCA member, but we had limited time, and there was a lot to see. Besides, we wanted to visit the local hobby shops before the long drive home.

              On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:17 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
               

              The "National Toy Train" museum is operated by the "Train Collectors Association" or "TCA".  (I'm a member by the way.)  The focus is on tinplate trains which means mainly O gauge and Lionel et. al., and also earlier "standard" gauge "pre war" larger toy trains, and some S gauge American Flyer, even a little Lionel OO, and probably some other stuff, too.  I'm surprised there was any HO there at all unless it was Lionel or American Flyer.
               
              I have been to Strasburg quite a few times.  GREAT place to visit.  I would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up.  And I think non-train fans also enjoy themselves very much.
               
              If anybody goes there, find the place (or maybe it is one of the places) with "family dining" where they seat you with a lot of strangers at a big table.  Then they bring out platters and bowls full of food and keep it coming.  (Not a good place for dieters.)  And it's fun chatting with the other tourists.
               
              Incidentally, nearby Kinzers, PA (used to be called Kinzer, PA) is named after a relative of mine.  It is a meeting place for steam traction engine aficionados.  (See http://www.roughandtumble.org/)  If you visit something like their "Spring Steam Up", you can combine that with all the stuff in Strasburg and really get your money's worth.  Apparently they also have some of a shay going there, but I'm not familiar with it.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15049 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Hi Chuck,
               
              Please do not take this the wrong way, because I mean no disrespect in any way.
               
              Given the name "National Toy Train" museum, upon entering the museum, I expected to see just that... toy trains of all shapes and sizes... and for the most part, I did. I figured out as soon as i saw the HO display, I knew I was in a TCA established environment without even having have to ask. The name should have been National "Tin Plate" Toy Train museum,
               
              There were small selections/sections on HO Lionel and American Flyer. ...but..
              There were no real difinative references to any of the other histiry involved. Being that you are here in this group, I am sure you can appreciate what I am saying. For me, I still feel that i am new to the hobby of collecting vintage HO and I am constantly on the search now for information and new (to me) old and rare finds, of which I pride my collection on.

               

              To me, the histories of Mantua, Varney, Penn Line, Strombecker and many many others, including the one(or two)-hit-wonders that made one or two early pieces and then vanished are very deserving of being mentioned as well as preserved.

               

              As a American and a vintage HO collector, I find it important to the hobby, to preserve the history of these early American companies and their early products. This is my opinion, but if you are going to create an environment where you are presenting a wide variety of old toy trains to people and you are going to display the historic pieces of many O scale, S scale and the various other scales, both diecast and tin plate, and give historic references to those pieces, then it seems only fair and appropriate that you would do the same for HO and not just mention the two big O scale companies, Lionel and Gilbert.

               

              I understand that most, if not all of these pieces are on loan or dontated, but it makes sence to me that at least some references of these early pieces should be there. The display they had was all on one wall approx 4' tall from the chair-rail to the ceiling and was approx 10-12 feet long. It had many models crammed onto the shelves and there seemed to be no ryme or reason to the order. Items ranged from Bachmann, Life-Like, Tyco, Mantua, Rivarossi, Redball, Bowser, etc... The most vintage items appeared to be a couple of the redball and Mantua freight cars and that was about it. Right now, i can not remember i there were labels below each, I will have to check my photos later, but my hunch is no.

               

              There was a nice variety of high quality brass models though and I will share pictures of what I saw there later this week..

               

              All I can say is... I left the place with an unfortunate feeling of dissapointment in not having seen any real reference to the items that I collect and enjoy...
               
              Kind-of brings me back to this artical I read last year..I will never become a TCA member so long as the sentiments and views shared in this artical are the rules the TCA lives by...
               
              "4. ‘O’ and ‘O-27’ gauge trains (the larger size trains) are normally most collectible, followed by Standard and S gauge. HO and N scale trains are normally not collectible; they’re worth not more than half of their original retail value no matter how old they are  (exceptions are brass locomotives and some limited run plastics)."
               
              The day I read this, I emailed them and asked the author of the artical on "Train Collecting Tips" to send me all the worthless HO junk he ever comes accross... I told him I would even pay him for the stuff... Never heard anything..
               
              The above was taken from this page:
               
              No, please don't get me wrong.. i did not hat the joint.., by no means. I thought it was a terrific display and loved seeing all the pieces. I just thought it was tragic to leave out such an interesting story such as the history of HO.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 2:17:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              The "National Toy Train" museum is operated by the "Train Collectors Association" or "TCA".  (I'm a member by the way.)  The focus is on tinplate trains which means mainly O gauge and Lionel et. al., and also earlier "standard" gauge "pre war" larger toy trains, and some S gauge American Flyer, even a little Lionel OO, and probably some other stuff, too.  I'm surprised there was any HO there at all unless it was Lionel or American Flyer.
               
              I have been to Strasburg quite a few times.  GREAT place to visit.  I would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up.  And I think non-train fans also enjoy themselves very much.
               
              If anybody goes there, find the place (or maybe it is one of the places) with "family dining" where they seat you with a lot of strangers at a big table.  Then they bring out platters and bowls full of food and keep it coming.  (Not a good place for dieters.)  And it's fun chatting with the other tourists.
               
              Incidentally, nearby Kinzers, PA (used to be called Kinzer, PA) is named after a relative of mine.  It is a meeting place for steam traction engine aficionados.  (See http://www.roughandtumble.org/)  If you visit something like their "Spring Steam Up", you can combine that with all the stuff in Strasburg and really get your money's worth.  Apparently they also have some of a shay going there, but I'm not familiar with it.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15050 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Walter,
               
              I must admit, I did not get a chance to look through the catalogs. I do not recall seeing them as they might have been in the library, which was closed for the holiday..go figure...
               
              Unfortunately, with two small kids pulling me in many directions, it was tough to stand still too long.
               
              Catalogs are different than seeing the actual item though... but still good to see none the less.
               
              Sean
               

               


              From: Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 8:55:54 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              The National Toy Train museum does have a decent collection of catalogs, manuals and other literature, Lionel and AF, of course, but also HO, such as Mantua, Varney, Penn Line, etc., that can keep you drooling for hours.

              Seems to me that the HO layout in not limited to Gilbert and Lionel equipment, but perhaps someone out there can elaborate for the rest of us. I was taken there by a neighbor and TCA member, but we had limited time, and there was a lot to see. Besides, we wanted to visit the local hobby shops before the long drive home.

              On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:17 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
               

              The "National Toy Train" museum is operated by the "Train Collectors Association" or "TCA".  (I'm a member by the way.)  The focus is on tinplate trains which means mainly O gauge and Lionel et. al., and also earlier "standard" gauge "pre war" larger toy trains, and some S gauge American Flyer, even a little Lionel OO, and probably some other stuff, too.  I'm surprised there was any HO there at all unless it was Lionel or American Flyer.
               
              I have been to Strasburg quite a few times.  GREAT place to visit.  I would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up.  And I think non-train fans also enjoy themselves very much.
               
              If anybody goes there, find the place (or maybe it is one of the places) with "family dining" where they seat you with a lot of strangers at a big table.  Then they bring out platters and bowls full of food and keep it coming.  (Not a good place for dieters.)  And it's fun chatting with the other tourists.
               
              Incidentally, nearby Kinzers, PA (used to be called Kinzer, PA) is named after a relative of mine.  It is a meeting place for steam traction engine aficionados.  (See http://www.roughandtumble.org/)  If you visit something like their "Spring Steam Up", you can combine that with all the stuff in Strasburg and really get your money's worth.  Apparently they also have some of a shay going there, but I'm not familiar with it.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean




              --
              Regards,
              Walter

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15051 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              
              I think it may be generally accepted that "toy trains" is not the same as "model trains".  I am involved in both.  The model trains I do not consider to be "toys".  However, my ladyfriend may have another view.
               
              I wonder how many toy tinplate trains are slated for display at the NMRA Howell Day museum?
               
              So, they have different definitions, different magazines, different associations, different clubs, different meets, and, yes, different museums.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:34 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi Chuck,
               
              Please do not take this the wrong way, because I mean no disrespect in any way.
               
              Given the name "National Toy Train" museum, upon entering the museum, I expected to see just that... toy trains of all shapes and sizes... and for the most part, I did. I figured out as soon as i saw the HO display, I knew I was in a TCA established environment without even having have to ask. The name should have been National "Tin Plate" Toy Train museum,
               
              There were small selections/sections on HO Lionel and American Flyer. ...but..
              There were no real difinative references to any of the other histiry involved. Being that you are here in this group, I am sure you can appreciate what I am saying. For me, I still feel that i am new to the hobby of collecting vintage HO and I am constantly on the search now for information and new (to me) old and rare finds, of which I pride my collection on.

               

              To me, the histories of Mantua, Varney, Penn Line, Strombecker and many many others, including the one(or two)-hit-wonders that made one or two early pieces and then vanished are very deserving of being mentioned as well as preserved.

               

              As a American and a vintage HO collector, I find it important to the hobby, to preserve the history of these early American companies and their early products. This is my opinion, but if you are going to create an environment where you are presenting a wide variety of old toy trains to people and you are going to display the historic pieces of many O scale, S scale and the various other scales, both diecast and tin plate, and give historic references to those pieces, then it seems only fair and appropriate that you would do the same for HO and not just mention the two big O scale companies, Lionel and Gilbert.

               

              I understand that most, if not all of these pieces are on loan or dontated, but it makes sence to me that at least some references of these early pieces should be there. The display they had was all on one wall approx 4' tall from the chair-rail to the ceiling and was approx 10-12 feet long. It had many models crammed onto the shelves and there seemed to be no ryme or reason to the order. Items ranged from Bachmann, Life-Like, Tyco, Mantua, Rivarossi, Redball, Bowser, etc... The most vintage items appeared to be a couple of the redball and Mantua freight cars and that was about it. Right now, i can not remember i there were labels below each, I will have to check my photos later, but my hunch is no.

               

              There was a nice variety of high quality brass models though and I will share pictures of what I saw there later this week..

               

              All I can say is... I left the place with an unfortunate feeling of dissapointment in not having seen any real reference to the items that I collect and enjoy...
               
              Kind-of brings me back to this artical I read last year..I will never become a TCA member so long as the sentiments and views shared in this artical are the rules the TCA lives by...
               
              "4. ‘O’ and ‘O-27’ gauge trains (the larger size trains) are normally most collectible, followed by Standard and S gauge. HO and N scale trains are normally not collectible; they’re worth not more than half of their original retail value no matter how old they are  (exceptions are brass locomotives and some limited run plastics)."
               
              The day I read this, I emailed them and asked the author of the artical on "Train Collecting Tips" to send me all the worthless HO junk he ever comes accross... I told him I would even pay him for the stuff... Never heard anything..
               
              The above was taken from this page:
               
              No, please don't get me wrong.. i did not hat the joint.., by no means. I thought it was a terrific display and loved seeing all the pieces. I just thought it was tragic to leave out such an interesting story such as the history of HO.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 2:17:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              The "National Toy Train" museum is operated by the "Train Collectors Association" or "TCA".  (I'm a member by the way.)  The focus is on tinplate trains which means mainly O gauge and Lionel et. al., and also earlier "standard" gauge "pre war" larger toy trains, and some S gauge American Flyer, even a little Lionel OO, and probably some other stuff, too.  I'm surprised there was any HO there at all unless it was Lionel or American Flyer.
               
              I have been to Strasburg quite a few times.  GREAT place to visit.  I would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up.  And I think non-train fans also enjoy themselves very much.
               
              If anybody goes there, find the place (or maybe it is one of the places) with "family dining" where they seat you with a lot of strangers at a big table.  Then they bring out platters and bowls full of food and keep it coming.  (Not a good place for dieters.)  And it's fun chatting with the other tourists.
               
              Incidentally, nearby Kinzers, PA (used to be called Kinzer, PA) is named after a relative of mine.  It is a meeting place for steam traction engine aficionados.  (See http://www.roughandtumble.org/)  If you visit something like their "Spring Steam Up", you can combine that with all the stuff in Strasburg and really get your money's worth.  Apparently they also have some of a shay going there, but I'm not familiar with it.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15052 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Looks like I need to schedule a trip to the NMRA Howell Day museum...
               
              again, my ignorance and opinion has been in no way meant to offend anyone, TCA members included..
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 11:00:20 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              

              I think it may be generally accepted that "toy trains" is not the same as "model trains".  I am involved in both.  The model trains I do not consider to be "toys".  However, my ladyfriend may have another view.
               
              I wonder how many toy tinplate trains are slated for display at the NMRA Howell Day museum?
               
              So, they have different definitions, different magazines, different associations, different clubs, different meets, and, yes, different museums.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:34 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi Chuck,
               
              Please do not take this the wrong way, because I mean no disrespect in any way.
               
              Given the name "National Toy Train" museum, upon entering the museum, I expected to see just that... toy trains of all shapes and sizes... and for the most part, I did. I figured out as soon as i saw the HO display, I knew I was in a TCA established environment without even having have to ask. The name should have been National "Tin Plate" Toy Train museum,
               
              There were small selections/sections on HO Lionel and American Flyer. ...but..
              There were no real difinative references to any of the other histiry involved. Being that you are here in this group, I am sure you can appreciate what I am saying. For me, I still feel that i am new to the hobby of collecting vintage HO and I am constantly on the search now for information and new (to me) old and rare finds, of which I pride my collection on.

               

              To me, the histories of Mantua, Varney, Penn Line, Strombecker and many many others, including the one(or two)-hit-wonders that made one or two early pieces and then vanished are very deserving of being mentioned as well as preserved.

               

              As a American and a vintage HO collector, I find it important to the hobby, to preserve the history of these early American companies and their early products. This is my opinion, but if you are going to create an environment where you are presenting a wide variety of old toy trains to people and you are going to display the historic pieces of many O scale, S scale and the various other scales, both diecast and tin plate, and give historic references to those pieces, then it seems only fair and appropriate that you would do the same for HO and not just mention the two big O scale companies, Lionel and Gilbert.

               

              I understand that most, if not all of these pieces are on loan or dontated, but it makes sence to me that at least some references of these early pieces should be there. The display they had was all on one wall approx 4' tall from the chair-rail to the ceiling and was approx 10-12 feet long. It had many models crammed onto the shelves and there seemed to be no ryme or reason to the order. Items ranged from Bachmann, Life-Like, Tyco, Mantua, Rivarossi, Redball, Bowser, etc... The most vintage items appeared to be a couple of the redball and Mantua freight cars and that was about it. Right now, i can not remember i there were labels below each, I will have to check my photos later, but my hunch is no.

               

              There was a nice variety of high quality brass models though and I will share pictures of what I saw there later this week..

               

              All I can say is... I left the place with an unfortunate feeling of dissapointment in not having seen any real reference to the items that I collect and enjoy...
               
              Kind-of brings me back to this artical I read last year..I will never become a TCA member so long as the sentiments and views shared in this artical are the rules the TCA lives by...
               
              "4. ‘O’ and ‘O-27’ gauge trains (the larger size trains) are normally most collectible, followed by Standard and S gauge. HO and N scale trains are normally not collectible; they’re worth not more than half of their original retail value no matter how old they are  (exceptions are brass locomotives and some limited run plastics)."
               
              The day I read this, I emailed them and asked the author of the artical on "Train Collecting Tips" to send me all the worthless HO junk he ever comes accross... I told him I would even pay him for the stuff... Never heard anything..
               
              The above was taken from this page:
               
              No, please don't get me wrong.. i did not hat the joint.., by no means. I thought it was a terrific display and loved seeing all the pieces. I just thought it was tragic to leave out such an interesting story such as the history of HO.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 2:17:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              The "National Toy Train" museum is operated by the "Train Collectors Association" or "TCA".  (I'm a member by the way.)  The focus is on tinplate trains which means mainly O gauge and Lionel et. al., and also earlier "standard" gauge "pre war" larger toy trains, and some S gauge American Flyer, even a little Lionel OO, and probably some other stuff, too.  I'm surprised there was any HO there at all unless it was Lionel or American Flyer.
               
              I have been to Strasburg quite a few times.  GREAT place to visit.  I would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up.  And I think non-train fans also enjoy themselves very much.
               
              If anybody goes there, find the place (or maybe it is one of the places) with "family dining" where they seat you with a lot of strangers at a big table.  Then they bring out platters and bowls full of food and keep it coming.  (Not a good place for dieters.)  And it's fun chatting with the other tourists.
               
              Incidentally, nearby Kinzers, PA (used to be called Kinzer, PA) is named after a relative of mine.  It is a meeting place for steam traction engine aficionados.  (See http://www.roughandtumble.org/)  If you visit something like their "Spring Steam Up", you can combine that with all the stuff in Strasburg and really get your money's worth.  Apparently they also have some of a shay going there, but I'm not familiar with it.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15053 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Looks like it is in Chattanooga.. I could schedule it at the same time as the annual Mustangs Across America drive which ends in Birmingham Alabama.. just south-east of Chattanooga..
               
              Looks like I have a trip to plan for within the next year or two when my '69 is ready to go...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!


              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 11:14:33 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Looks like I need to schedule a trip to the NMRA Howell Day museum...
               
              again, my ignorance and opinion has been in no way meant to offend anyone, TCA members included..
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 11:00:20 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              

              I think it may be generally accepted that "toy trains" is not the same as "model trains".  I am involved in both.  The model trains I do not consider to be "toys".  However, my ladyfriend may have another view.
               
              I wonder how many toy tinplate trains are slated for display at the NMRA Howell Day museum?
               
              So, they have different definitions, different magazines, different associations, different clubs, different meets, and, yes, different museums.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:34 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               


               



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15054 From: rcjge Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              Hey Gents:

              Just following up on something mentioned on the Tyco Forum. One of the members built a Varney Streamline Hudson shell onto a Mantua Pacific chassis. It seemed like a nice setup but he complained it was top heavy, couldn't be operated at higher speeds, tipped over.

              My question is, is anyone running one of these on a Varney Hudson chassis or some other and what have your experiences been? More stable, similar???

              Any help would be appreciated.

              Thanks,
              Gareth
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15055 From: RalphB Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean wrote:
              >
              > Hi all!
              > I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.
              >
              > We...went to the PRR museum.
              ---------------
              Sean,

              Did you mean the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania (the state, the not the railroad)? You won't find much B&O stuff there, not with the B&O Museum not too far away, but there's a lot more than just PRR-related equipment there. It just happens that the Pennsy, for all of its curmudgeonly attitude toward the rest of the world, did save an awful lot of equipment and it did form the basis of the museum's collection. I'm just disappointed there isn't more New York Central stuff there, not even with Jim's "Beast" nearby. ;-)

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15056 From: jim heckard Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              Gareth,
               
                  My Varney streamlined shell runs on a Varney 4-6-4 Hudson frame with no problem at NORMAL speeds ( especially no tipping ). Now just how fast would you have to go to MAYBE tip it over I don't know and don't intend to try.
               
                                                     Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 12:46 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?

               

              Hey Gents:

              Just following up on something mentioned on the Tyco Forum. One of the members built a Varney Streamline Hudson shell onto a Mantua Pacific chassis. It seemed like a nice setup but he complained it was top heavy, couldn't be operated at higher speeds, tipped over.

              My question is, is anyone running one of these on a Varney Hudson chassis or some other and what have your experiences been? More stable, similar???

              Any help would be appreciated.

              Thanks,
              Gareth

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15057 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Hi Ralph,
               
              I may have had the name wrong, for sure.  There was more than just PRR there. I do not recall any B&O. I did get a few shots of a Reading piece. (or was it only in the Strausburg RR Yard that I saw he 0-4-0 goat).
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: RalphB <Alpvalsys@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 12:52:52 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: My Mecca this past weekend!

               



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean wrote:
              >
              > Hi all!
              > I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.
              >
              > We...went to the PRR museum.
              ---------------
              Sean,

              Did you mean the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania (the state, the not the railroad)? You won't find much B&O stuff there, not with the B&O Museum not too far away, but there's a lot more than just PRR-related equipment there. It just happens that the Pennsy, for all of its curmudgeonly attitude toward the rest of the world, did save an awful lot of equipment and it did form the basis of the museum's collection. I'm just disappointed there isn't more New York Central stuff there, not even with Jim's "Beast" nearby. ;-)

              Ralph B


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15058 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              I second that jim..
               

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 12:57:41 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?

               

              Gareth,
               
                  My Varney streamlined shell runs on a Varney 4-6-4 Hudson frame with no problem at NORMAL speeds ( especially no tipping ). Now just how fast would you have to go to MAYBE tip it over I don't know and don't intend to try.
               
                                                     Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 12:46 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?

               

              Hey Gents:

              Just following up on something mentioned on the Tyco Forum. One of the members built a Varney Streamline Hudson shell onto a Mantua Pacific chassis. It seemed like a nice setup but he complained it was top heavy, couldn't be operated at higher speeds, tipped over.

              My question is, is anyone running one of these on a Varney Hudson chassis or some other and what have your experiences been? More stable, similar???

              Any help would be appreciated.

              Thanks,
              Gareth


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15059 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              If I experienced such a problem I would check to find out the height of the original Varney Hudson above the rails and see if the boiler needs to be lowered on the Mantua chassis.  Other than that I would check to see if it is balanced over the drivers.  Adding weight on the frame and balancing might get a better performance especially if it is light on the front drivers.  The Mantua Pacific would have a lower center of gravity and track better than the cast Hudson because of a lower center of gravity because of a smaller boiler and no skyline casing which is what makes the Hudson top heavy if not weighted and/or balanced.

              Don Staton in VA
              ======================================================================================


              On 9/8/2010 1:10 PM, Sean Naylor wrote:
               
              I second that jim..
               

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 12:57:41 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?

               

              Gareth,
               
                  My Varney streamlined shell runs on a Varney 4-6-4 Hudson frame with no problem at NORMAL speeds ( especially no tipping ). Now just how fast would you have to go to MAYBE tip it over I don't know and don't intend to try.
               
                                                     Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 12:46 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?

               

              Hey Gents:

              Just following up on something mentioned on the Tyco Forum. One of the members built a Varney Streamline Hudson shell onto a Mantua Pacific chassis. It seemed like a nice setup but he complained it was top heavy, couldn't be operated at higher speeds, tipped over.

              My question is, is anyone running one of these on a Varney Hudson chassis or some other and what have your experiences been? More stable, similar???

              Any help would be appreciated.

              Thanks,
              Gareth


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15060 From: rcjge Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              Hi Jim:

              I was wondering, you must have a Mantua Pacific chassis in your possession? Could per chance weigh or compare that chassis to the Varney Hudson one? This fella has the shell right down about where it should be ruling out the "high-waisted" problem I was thinking might be the problem. OTOH the shell itself, the casting I would tend to think would be heavier in the top, deeper part of the casting. Is it not, perhaps contributing to the top heavy problem magnified by his chassis choice?

              -Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gareth,
              >
              > My Varney streamlined shell runs on a Varney 4-6-4 Hudson frame with no problem at NORMAL speeds ( especially no tipping ). Now just how fast would you have to go to MAYBE tip it over I don't know and don't intend to try.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: rcjge
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 12:46 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              >
              >
              >
              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > Just following up on something mentioned on the Tyco Forum. One of the members built a Varney Streamline Hudson shell onto a Mantua Pacific chassis. It seemed like a nice setup but he complained it was top heavy, couldn't be operated at higher speeds, tipped over.
              >
              > My question is, is anyone running one of these on a Varney Hudson chassis or some other and what have your experiences been? More stable, similar???
              >
              > Any help would be appreciated.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15061 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              On Sep 8, 2010, at 11:46 AM, rcjge wrote:

              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > Just following up on something mentioned on the Tyco Forum. One of
              > the members built a Varney Streamline Hudson shell onto a Mantua
              > Pacific chassis. It seemed like a nice setup but he complained it
              > was top heavy, couldn't be operated at higher speeds, tipped over.
              >
              > My question is, is anyone running one of these on a Varney Hudson
              > chassis or some other and what have your experiences been? More
              > stable, similar???
              >
              > Any help would be appreciated.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth

              I have an unmounted shell and an yet-unpowered Varney mech for it.

              I do know what you mean by it being top-heavy. The obvious solution
              would be to mill-out some of the inside of the body to make it's inner
              cavity higher in the body. I fully understand how much of a problem
              that can be for most folks. I have small machine shops around here
              that can easily do that for a very low cost, and I could likely get a
              co-worker in the shop at Da Job to do it for me as a friendly favor.

              Now if you like the looks of the Lokie enough to consider running a
              small fleet of three or four of them........ Then you can give serious
              consideration to getting a $80 or so Alumilite casting set, add one or
              two $20 additional RTV molding units to it. I think it would only need
              one of those extra RTV packs.

              Then make a mold of the body and cast the three to four of those in
              the lighter Alumilite. You can add powdered weight to the compound or
              embed metal into the casting later. The starter set comes with enough
              casting plastic to make 3-4 of those shells.

              You could cast in a section of plastic or metal pipe as the core of
              the body and fill that with lead shot or other heavy metal later

              I know it's a bunch of fussing around. But with the original Varney
              body being so very hard to find, it's a alternative to consider.

              It's what I've been considering doing for some time now.

              I have this re-occurring vision of what the Varney Streamlined Hudson
              would be like with tenders built from the partial shells of fluted
              stainless passenger cars, pulling a matching train of those gleaming
              passenger cars. Then do that 3-4 times for sets of the
              trains................. Either in the real metal cars, or plastic
              passenger cars with a gleaming stainless steel metalizer paint. [The
              price of the four types of raw, extruded OK line of HO passenger cars
              is near a dollar a foot, and I have ways of rigging my lightly used
              Sherline mill to template cut out windows and mill doors in those
              shells. I'd cast suitable ends, buy good trucks, and make floors from
              assorted sheet plastic and shapes. My cost per car would be rather or
              even quite modest. Or I could secure the older full-length ConCor cars
              from several trips to the larger model RR swap meets.]

              It sure makes a nice looking vision of a set of passenger
              trains...........

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15062 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Fwd: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures
              On this other list is something quite Vintage that most here might find to be interesting.......

              How's this for a kit-bash ????

              First look at this picture of the original, then take a look at the pictures in the link of the forward below.


              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              Begin forwarded message:

              From: Michael McMurtrey <skyking...@...>
              Date: September 8, 2010 11:49:06 AM CDT
              Subject: Re: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures



              And if your interests run to nautical subjects, you can always build one as a boat:



              Michael McMurtrey
              IPMS-USA #1746
              Carrollton, Texas
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15063 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              I suspect that flat model railroad curves would be a problem at speed.

              Now if you run on prototypical super-elevated curves, you won't see
              the tipping over at the same speeds. Those are compatible with higher
              speed running.

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              On Sep 8, 2010, at 11:57 AM, jim heckard wrote:

              >
              >
              > Gareth,
              >
              > My Varney streamlined shell runs on a Varney 4-6-4 Hudson frame
              > with no problem at NORMAL speeds ( especially no tipping ). Now just
              > how fast would you have to go to MAYBE tip it over I don't know and
              > don't intend to try.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: rcjge
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 12:46 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              >
              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > Just following up on something mentioned on the Tyco Forum. One of
              > the members built a Varney Streamline Hudson shell onto a Mantua
              > Pacific chassis. It seemed like a nice setup but he complained it
              > was top heavy, couldn't be operated at higher speeds, tipped over.
              >
              > My question is, is anyone running one of these on a Varney Hudson
              > chassis or some other and what have your experiences been? More
              > stable, similar???
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15064 From: John Barlow Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Fwd: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures
              The Boeing 307 may have been done by a Ukrainian plastic maker in 1:72 a year or so ago.
              I saw a French-owned and operated 307 while serving in Vietnam. It was then the safest
              aircraft to fly on, making once-monthly flights from Tan Son Nhut Air Base/International
              Airport (Saigon) to Hanoi Gia Lam outside Hanoi, per the old cease fire of 1954 to check on compliance to that truce. What a joke! No Allied or North Vietnamese anti-aircraft battery or missile unit or interceptor dared go near that plane in flight. That's what I mean by safest
              aircraft.
               
              John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
               
               
               
              --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:

              From: Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Fwd: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, meworkshop@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 2:18 PM

               
              On this other list is something quite Vintage that most here might find to be interesting.......

              How's this for a kit-bash ????

              First look at this picture of the original, then take a look at the pictures in the link of the forward below.


              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              Begin forwarded message:

              From: Michael McMurtrey <skyking...@...>
              Date: September 8, 2010 11:49:06 AM CDT
              Subject: Re: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures



              And if your interests run to nautical subjects, you can always build one as a boat:



              Michael McMurtrey
              IPMS-USA #1746
              Carrollton, Texas

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15065 From: Mike Bauers Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Fwd: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures, Thank you for the link to "
              Someone just posted this follow-up.

              I never would have guessed ..........


              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              Begin forwarded message:

              > From: John Newcome <nieup.....@...>
              > Date: September 8, 2010 12:34:24 PM CDT
              > To: wingsofpeace@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures, Thank you for the
              > link to "Cosmic Muffin"
              > Reply-To: wingsofpeace@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Thanks Michael,
              >
              > "Cosmic Muffin" was Howard Hughes' personal 307 and was configured
              > with it's own bar and lounge chairs. I understand he entertained
              > may of Hollywood's actresses on this 307.
              >
              > I makes me kind of sad in a way to see such a beautiful aircraft
              > turned into a floating caricature. Maybe someone just needs to put
              > it out of its mysery. On the other hand, since this was Howard
              > Hughes' personal aircraft, it probably never had a normal life
              > anyway, so living out its days as a floating cartoon may be
              > appropriate.
              >
              > Thanks for the email.
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > John Newcome
              >
              > From: Michael McMurtrey <skykin....@...>
              > To: wingsofpeace@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 9:49:06 AM
              > Subject: Re: [wingsofpeace] Boeing 307 pictures
              >
              > And if your interests run to nautical subjects, you can always build
              > one as a boat:
              >
              >
              > http://www.planeboats.com/Other%20Pages/Photos/index/boat%20index.html
              >
              >
              > Michael McMurtrey
              > IPMS-USA #1746
              > Carrollton, Texas
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15066 From: jim heckard Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
                        Since I only have assembled Mantua Pacifics and Varney Hudsons I don't want to take apart to weigh each. As what to compare I don't think there is much weight difference or tracking abilities unless it is a Super Varney engine with equalized and flexing drivers. As someone mention a flat curve, or S curve, at to high a speed is easy to tip an engine. I have seen and had plastic boiler Rivarossi Mikes and Pacifics fall off the track and even then to the floor.
               
                  The Varney streamlined boiler is very heavy and most likely top heavy but again the speed any engine is run is critical. I agree with the two suggestions Don S made would be helpful and if you want take the other suggestion to mill out the body but remember it is the weight of the Varney streamlined boiler that helps it pull a lot of cars.
               
                                                            Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?

               

              Hi Jim:

              I was wondering, you must have a Mantua Pacific chassis in your possession? Could per chance weigh or compare that chassis to the Varney Hudson one? This fella has the shell right down about where it should be ruling out the "high-waisted" problem I was thinking might be the problem. OTOH the shell itself, the casting I would tend to think would be heavier in the top, deeper part of the casting. Is it not, perhaps contributing to the top heavy problem magnified by his chassis choice?

              -Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gareth,
              >
              > My Varney streamlined shell runs on a Varney 4-6-4 Hudson frame with no problem at NORMAL speeds ( especially no tipping ). Now just how fast would you have to go to MAYBE tip it over I don't know and don't intend to try.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: rcjge
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 12:46 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              >
              >
              >
              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > Just following up on something mentioned on the Tyco Forum. One of the members built a Varney Streamline Hudson shell onto a Mantua Pacific chassis. It seemed like a nice setup but he complained it was top heavy, couldn't be operated at higher speeds, tipped over.
              >
              > My question is, is anyone running one of these on a Varney Hudson chassis or some other and what have your experiences been? More stable, similar???
              >
              > Any help would be appreciated.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15067 From: Rick Jones Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              On 9/8/2010 1:17 AM, ckinzer@... wrote:
              > I have been to Strasburg quite a few times. GREAT place to visit. I
              > would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up. And I think non-train fans also enjoy
              > themselves very much.

              Are Strasburg and Steamtown USA the same place or 2 different
              places? I've never visited the Northeast, so the entire region and its
              features and attractions is somewhat foreign to me.

              --

              Rick Jones

              "Oh bother!", said Pooh as he searched for a place to bury the
              bodies.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15068 From: Rick Jones Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              On 9/8/2010 11:00 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              > Looks like it is in Chattanooga..
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > *From:* Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              > Looks like I need to schedule a trip to the NMRA Howell Day museum...

              The Howell Day Museum is not yet a physical reality. It's been in
              the planning stages for quite a few years. The current plan, still in
              development, is working towards having it added in to part of the
              California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento.
              The Kalmbach Library however remains as part of the NMRA HQ in
              Chattanooga. At lest that's the way I understand things as presented in
              the NMRA Magazine, nee Scale Rails, nee NMRA Bulletin.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Earth is the insane asylum of the universe.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15069 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!

              Hi Rich,

              Steamtown is in Scranton, PA and Strasburg in Strasburg, PA.  About 141 miles apart, 2 and a half hours according to Maps on Yahoo.

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Jones
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:52 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

               

              On 9/8/2010 1:17 AM, ckinzer@... wrote:

              > I have been to Strasburg quite a few times. GREAT place to visit. I
              > would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up. And I think non-train fans also enjoy
              > themselves very much.

              Are Strasburg and Steamtown USA the same place or 2 different
              places? I've never visited the Northeast, so the entire region and its
              features and attractions is somewhat foreign to me.

              --

              Rick Jones

              "Oh bother!", said Pooh as he searched for a place to bury the
              bodies.

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15070 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              don't rush--it isn't there yet--gj

              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 8:14 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

              Looks like I need to schedule a trip to the NMRA Howell Day museum...
               
              again, my ignorance and opinion has been in no way meant to offend anyone, TCA members included..
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 11:00:20 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              

              I think it may be generally accepted that "toy trains" is not the same as "model trains".  I am involved in both.  The model trains I do not consider to be "toys".  However, my ladyfriend may have another view.
               
              I wonder how many toy tinplate trains are slated for display at the NMRA Howell Day museum?
               
              So, they have different definitions, different magazines, different associations, different clubs, different meets, and, yes, different museums.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:34 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi Chuck,
               
              Please do not take this the wrong way, because I mean no disrespect in any way.
               
              Given the name "National Toy Train" museum, upon entering the museum, I expected to see just that... toy trains of all shapes and sizes... and for the most part, I did. I figured out as soon as i saw the HO display, I knew I was in a TCA established environment without even having have to ask. The name should have been National "Tin Plate" Toy Train museum,
               
              There were small selections/sections on HO Lionel and American Flyer. ...but..
              There were no real difinative references to any of the other histiry involved. Being that you are here in this group, I am sure you can appreciate what I am saying. For me, I still feel that i am new to the hobby of collecting vintage HO and I am constantly on the search now for information and new (to me) old and rare finds, of which I pride my collection on.

               

              To me, the histories of Mantua, Varney, Penn Line, Strombecker and many many others, including the one(or two)-hit-wonders that made one or two early pieces and then vanished are very deserving of being mentioned as well as preserved.

               

              As a American and a vintage HO collector, I find it important to the hobby, to preserve the history of these early American companies and their early products. This is my opinion, but if you are going to create an environment where you are presenting a wide variety of old toy trains to people and you are going to display the historic pieces of many O scale, S scale and the various other scales, both diecast and tin plate, and give historic references to those pieces, then it seems only fair and appropriate that you would do the same for HO and not just mention the two big O scale companies, Lionel and Gilbert.

               

              I understand that most, if not all of these pieces are on loan or dontated, but it makes sence to me that at least some references of these early pieces should be there. The display they had was all on one wall approx 4' tall from the chair-rail to the ceiling and was approx 10-12 feet long. It had many models crammed onto the shelves and there seemed to be no ryme or reason to the order. Items ranged from Bachmann, Life-Like, Tyco, Mantua, Rivarossi, Redball, Bowser, etc... The most vintage items appeared to be a couple of the redball and Mantua freight cars and that was about it. Right now, i can not remember i there were labels below each, I will have to check my photos later, but my hunch is no.

               

              There was a nice variety of high quality brass models though and I will share pictures of what I saw there later this week..

               

              All I can say is... I left the place with an unfortunate feeling of dissapointment in not having seen any real reference to the items that I collect and enjoy...
               
              Kind-of brings me back to this artical I read last year..I will never become a TCA member so long as the sentiments and views shared in this artical are the rules the TCA lives by...
               
              "4. ‘O’ and ‘O-27’ gauge trains (the larger size trains) are normally most collectible, followed by Standard and S gauge. HO and N scale trains are normally not collectible; they’re worth not more than half of their original retail value no matter how old they are  (exceptions are brass locomotives and some limited run plastics)."
               
              The day I read this, I emailed them and asked the author of the artical on "Train Collecting Tips" to send me all the worthless HO junk he ever comes accross... I told him I would even pay him for the stuff... Never heard anything..
               
              The above was taken from this page:
               
              No, please don't get me wrong.. i did not hat the joint.., by no means. I thought it was a terrific display and loved seeing all the pieces. I just thought it was tragic to leave out such an interesting story such as the history of HO.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 2:17:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              The "National Toy Train" museum is operated by the "Train Collectors Association" or "TCA".  (I'm a member by the way.)  The focus is on tinplate trains which means mainly O gauge and Lionel et. al., and also earlier "standard" gauge "pre war" larger toy trains, and some S gauge American Flyer, even a little Lionel OO, and probably some other stuff, too.  I'm surprised there was any HO there at all unless it was Lionel or American Flyer.
               
              I have been to Strasburg quite a few times.  GREAT place to visit.  I would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up.  And I think non-train fans also enjoy themselves very much.
               
              If anybody goes there, find the place (or maybe it is one of the places) with "family dining" where they seat you with a lot of strangers at a big table.  Then they bring out platters and bowls full of food and keep it coming.  (Not a good place for dieters.)  And it's fun chatting with the other tourists.
               
              Incidentally, nearby Kinzers, PA (used to be called Kinzer, PA) is named after a relative of mine.  It is a meeting place for steam traction engine aficionados.  (See http://www.roughandtumble.org/)  If you visit something like their "Spring Steam Up", you can combine that with all the stuff in Strasburg and really get your money's worth.  Apparently they also have some of a shay going there, but I'm not familiar with it.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15071 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              B&O already had their museum a Mt. Claire (Baltimore)  I had a tour of the PRR collection in 1967 in the Northumberland roundhouse.   gj

              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 10:09 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: My Mecca this past weekend!

              Hi Ralph,
               
              I may have had the name wrong, for sure.  There was more than just PRR there. I do not recall any B&O. I did get a few shots of a Reading piece. (or was it only in the Strausburg RR Yard that I saw he 0-4-0 goat).
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: RalphB <Alpvalsys@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 12:52:52 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: My Mecca this past weekend!

               



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean wrote:

              >
              > Hi all!
              > I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family
              this past weekend.
              >
              > We...went to the PRR
              museum.
              ---------------
              Sean,

              Did you mean the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania (the state, the not the railroad)? You won't find much B&O stuff there, not with the B&O Museum not too far away, but there's a lot more than just PRR-related equipment there. It just happens that the Pennsy, for all of its curmudgeonly attitude toward the rest of the world, did save an awful lot of equipment and it did form the basis of the museum's collection. I'm just disappointed there isn't more New York Central stuff there, not even with Jim's "Beast" nearby. ;-)

              Ralph B


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15072 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              two definitely different locations. gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:51 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

              > On 9/8/2010 1:17 AM, ckinzer@... wrote:
              >> I have been to Strasburg quite a few times. GREAT place to visit. I
              >> would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up. And I think non-train fans also enjoy
              >> themselves very much.
              >
              > Are Strasburg and Steamtown USA the same place or 2 different
              > places? I've never visited the Northeast, so the entire region and its
              > features and attractions is somewhat foreign to me.
              >
              > --
              >
              > Rick Jones
              >
              > "Oh bother!", said Pooh as he searched for a place to bury the
              > bodies.
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15073 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Ok now I'm sad.
              Sean

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Sep 8, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:

               

              On 9/8/2010 11:00 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              > Looks like it is in Chattanooga..
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > *From:* Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              > Looks like I need to schedule a trip to the NMRA Howell Day museum...

              The Howell Day Museum is not yet a physical reality. It's been in
              the planning stages for quite a few years. The current plan, still in
              development, is working towards having it added in to part of the
              California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento.
              The Kalmbach Library however remains as part of the NMRA HQ in
              Chattanooga. At lest that's the way I understand things as presented in
              the NMRA Magazine, nee Scale Rails, nee NMRA Bulletin.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Earth is the insane asylum of the universe.


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15074 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 9/8/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              
              Actually, I know that.  I'm an NMRA member, too.  In the recent NMRA magazines (with truly humorous - to me - discourse on the logo changes) there are photos of vintage stuff in display cases at the 75th convention.  It all looks HO or related to me.  I considered that to be a clue.
               
              I don't recall every seeing anything tinplate in the NMRA Bulletin, "Scale Rails", or whatever it is now called.
               
              The Sacramento museum does have a lot of tinplate on display, by the way.  This is a premier railroad museum well with visiting.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              (Some folks think Studebaker Avanti's rule.)
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Rick Jones
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:59 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              On 9/8/2010 11:00 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              > Looks like it is in Chattanooga..
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > *From:* Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              > Looks like I need to schedule a trip to the NMRA Howell Day museum...

              The Howell Day Museum is not yet a physical reality. It's been in
              the planning stages for quite a few years. The current plan, still in
              development, is working towards having it added in to part of the
              California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento.
              The Kalmbach Library however remains as part of the NMRA HQ in
              Chattanooga. At lest that's the way I understand things as presented in
              the NMRA Magazine, nee Scale Rails, nee NMRA Bulletin.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Earth is the insane asylum of the universe.

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15075 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/9/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Ok,
               
              So now... Is there any real museum that can be visited today, that would have on display a respectable representation of vintage and early HO scale trains?
               
              If not... isn't it about time we start striving to get one?
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 12:27:14 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              

              Actually, I know that.  I'm an NMRA member, too.  In the recent NMRA magazines (with truly humorous - to me - discourse on the logo changes) there are photos of vintage stuff in display cases at the 75th convention.  It all looks HO or related to me.  I considered that to be a clue.
               
              I don't recall every seeing anything tinplate in the NMRA Bulletin, "Scale Rails", or whatever it is now called.
               
              The Sacramento museum does have a lot of tinplate on display, by the way.  This is a premier railroad museum well with visiting.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              (Some folks think Studebaker Avanti's rule.)
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Rick Jones
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:59 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              On 9/8/2010 11:00 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              > Looks like it is in Chattanooga..
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > *From:* Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              > Looks like I need to schedule a trip to the NMRA Howell Day museum...

              The Howell Day Museum is not yet a physical reality. It's been in
              the planning stages for quite a few years. The current plan, still in
              development, is working towards having it added in to part of the
              California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento.
              The Kalmbach Library however remains as part of the NMRA HQ in
              Chattanooga. At lest that's the way I understand things as presented in
              the NMRA Magazine, nee Scale Rails, nee NMRA Bulletin.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Earth is the insane asylum of the universe.


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15076 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              Gareth, With a Varney Streamlined Hudson superstructure on a Mantua
              Pacific mechanism, you've got to keep in mind it probably can be expected to be a
              bit top-heavy as it's now running on 80" drivers (not the 72" drivers that
              Varney used). The center of gravity is much higher and the majority of the
              weight is on top. Ray F. W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15077 From: Denny Anspach Date: 9/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              This combination of cast shell and Mantua (or Penn Line/Bowser) chassis is not too top-heavy- in any fashion whatsoever (good combinations).

              If this locomotive is tipping over, it is only because it has been run too fast around too-sharp curves- operator error.

              Denny

              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Okoboji, Iowa
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15078 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              I have to agree. There is no reason to run such a locomotive so fast.
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 10:52:11 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?

               

              This combination of cast shell and Mantua (or Penn Line/Bowser) chassis is not too top-heavy- in any fashion whatsoever (good combinations).

              If this locomotive is tipping over, it is only because it has been run too fast around too-sharp curves- operator error.

              Denny

              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Okoboji, Iowa


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15079 From: Morgan Smith Date: 9/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Lancaster and shops
              Travelers to train stuff,
                  Just wanted to add a couple cents, regarding the Pa. Museum.  By any standard, it's a terrific collection, whatever road or era you might favor.  Many odd items which you have full access to.  Old locos, wooden equipment. work cars, accessible ancient wooden reefers with packing cases, passenger, on and on.  If you're anywhere near, go.  I have ushered a number of semi-resistant none RR'er's, and without exception they enjoyed the large number of displays.  The place is very well designed, mounted, accessible.  Never crowded.  Super model pike in lobby.
                    A couple notes.  I believe they have a NYC E-7 A unit OUTSIDE.  Maybe a B, as well.  I hope I have the nomenclature right.  The long passenger job.  It has the classic striped livery.  BE WARNED:  many pass through and fail to realize there is a huge collection OUTSIDE, which I think is in part, stuff to be refurbished.  I seem to recall they have a turntable out there with stuff on the splayed tracks, albeit no house.  Maybe a heavy duty crane.  Then walk back toward the main building, but go around BACK of the building and you will arrive at the shops, where they are working on stuff.  Usually there's nobody there, and open doors.  And if someone is there, they often enjoy speaking about trains.  Remember, they are more committed than the likes of us.  They actually take up arms and battle the splinters, rust, and no money.
                     Speaking of which, both Kempton Pa, and Ringos NJ (sp?) (near Flemington), have operating steam rides.  More important is that both have shops which are legally closed to the public, but the guys there, working on refurbishing the equipment, are volunteers, don't care that much , and some are sociable and enjoy discussing their seemingly hopeless projects. 
                     You simply have to look down the tracks from the tourist areas and start walking.  You will find amazing stuff that you can climb on, etc.  I haven't been in some while, but in the past have encountered and walked through, DoodleBugs, Bobbers, composite gondolas, GE 44-ton double enders, flat cars withoutwood planking (interesting to study steel frame), cabooses, etc.  Just walk into the shop.  You might run into a curmudgeon who will voice insurance laws, usually not.  I just nodded commiseration, said I'd take my chances, and walked past the guy.  There's flies in every ointment.   If you like hands on and appreciate those who commit to rebuilding, give it a shot. 
                    Important to note that ride-on tourist roads with ten-wheelers and the small like, offer pretty boring trips, (especially since I commuted in those blasted Harriman coaches into NYC for a thousand years), have nearby yards and shops where they don't encourage you to go, but which are far more interesting than the goofy tourist buildings and shops, or the ride itself.
                    The other place is Steamtown in Scranton.  They have a Big Boy.  They also have operating things like an 0-6-0 with slope back tender, and operating turntable and roundhouse.  The place was once a major yard for a coal route, The Lackawanna, I believe.  If your wife is sick of trains, there's a mall right there, which I am told is very good.  Scranton is something of a tourist town.  Mine shaft trips, (some are frightened), there, or nearby.  And, Dunder Mifflin is there, so maybe you'll encounter Pam and Jim at the mall.  (Or, lord spare us, Michael or Dwight) 
                     And while you're at it, you should see Northlandz (sic).  Route 202 in NJ.  (206?)  Near Flemington.  Another place none-railroaders will love; Turntable Junction; major store outlets.  Huge tourist place.  Northlandz is tongue-in-cheek, but astounding.  HO.  Enormous.  Mountains 20 or more feet high.    You stand on a bridge and watch trains fifteen feet below.  Built by one man; Bruce Williams,who is also a professional organist and has built a theater in the building where he plays worth-it-if the-chance-occurs, concerts.  He built the theater from the interior of a theater in Rahway (?) NJ. which he saved, removed, transported, and placed in a specially designed building.  Also has garden and ride-on trains, or some such.  I used to go to his house when he had the Flemington Central Navigation Co. there, but am not up to date.
              Bon Voyage   MorganS

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15080 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/9/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              These things move slowly.  As I understand it, the NMRA  Howell Day  Museum is to go into an expansion of the Calif. State RR Museum--that is to go into one of the buildings that housed the SP General Shops--so that has to be done first. 
               
              Apparently the NMRA has adopted standards in the S3 and S4 for tinplate / Hi-Rail track and wheels.
               
              gj
               

              Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 5:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

              Ok,
               
              So now... Is there any real museum that can be visited today, that would have on display a respectable representation of vintage and early HO scale trains?
               
              If not... isn't it about time we start striving to get one?
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 12:27:14 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              

              Actually, I know that.  I'm an NMRA member, too.  In the recent NMRA magazines (with truly humorous - to me - discourse on the logo changes) there are photos of vintage stuff in display cases at the 75th convention.  It all looks HO or related to me.  I considered that to be a clue.
               
              I don't recall every seeing anything tinplate in the NMRA Bulletin, "Scale Rails", or whatever it is now called.
               
              The Sacramento museum does have a lot of tinplate on display, by the way.  This is a premier railroad museum well with visiting.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              (Some folks think Studebaker Avanti's rule.)
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Rick Jones
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:59 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              On 9/8/2010 11:00 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              > Looks like it is in Chattanooga..
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > *From:* Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              > Looks like I need to schedule a trip to the NMRA Howell Day museum...

              The Howell Day Museum is not yet a physical reality. It's been in
              the planning stages for quite a few years. The current plan, still in
              development, is working towards having it added in to part of the
              California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento.
              The Kalmbach Library however remains as part of the NMRA HQ in
              Chattanooga. At lest that's the way I understand things as presented in
              the NMRA Magazine, nee Scale Rails, nee NMRA Bulletin.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Earth is the insane asylum of the universe.


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15081 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Lancaster and shops
              Hi All,
               
              I took a bunch of pictures during my visit, both inside and outside and I plan to share them this week.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Morgan Smith <morgantownrr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 10:50:43 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lancaster and shops

               

              Travelers to train stuff,
                  Just wanted to add a couple cents, regarding the Pa. Museum.  By any standard, it's a terrific collection, whatever road or era you might favor.  Many odd items which you have full access to.  Old locos, wooden equipment. work cars, accessible ancient wooden reefers with packing cases, passenger, on and on.  If you're anywhere near, go.  I have ushered a number of semi-resistant none RR'er's, and without exception they enjoyed the large number of displays.  The place is very well designed, mounted, accessible.  Never crowded.  Super model pike in lobby.
                    A couple notes.  I believe they have a NYC E-7 A unit OUTSIDE.  Maybe a B, as well.  I hope I have the nomenclature right.  The long passenger job.  It has the classic striped livery.  BE WARNED:  many pass through and fail to realize there is a huge collection OUTSIDE, which I think is in part, stuff to be refurbished.  I seem to recall they have a turntable out there with stuff on the splayed tracks, albeit no house.  Maybe a heavy duty crane.  Then walk back toward the main building, but go around BACK of the building and you will arrive at the shops, where they are working on stuff.  Usually there's nobody there, and open doors.  And if someone is there, they often enjoy speaking about trains.  Remember, they are more committed than the likes of us.  They actually take up arms and battle the splinters, rust, and no money.
                     Speaking of which, both Kempton Pa, and Ringos NJ (sp?) (near Flemington), have operating steam rides.  More important is that both have shops which are legally closed to the public, but the guys there, working on refurbishing the equipment, are volunteers, don't care that much , and some are sociable and enjoy discussing their seemingly hopeless projects. 
                     You simply have to look down the tracks from the tourist areas and start walking.  You will find amazing stuff that you can climb on, etc.  I haven't been in some while, but in the past have encountered and walked through, DoodleBugs, Bobbers, composite gondolas, GE 44-ton double enders, flat cars withoutwood planking (interesting to study steel frame), cabooses, etc.  Just walk into the shop.  You might run into a curmudgeon who will voice insurance laws, usually not.  I just nodded commiseration, said I'd take my chances, and walked past the guy.  There's flies in every ointment.   If you like hands on and appreciate those who commit to rebuilding, give it a shot. 
                    Important to note that ride-on tourist roads with ten-wheelers and the small like, offer pretty boring trips, (especially since I commuted in those blasted Harriman coaches into NYC for a thousand years), have nearby yards and shops where they don't encourage you to go, but which are far more interesting than the goofy tourist buildings and shops, or the ride itself.
                    The other place is Steamtown in Scranton.  They have a Big Boy.  They also have operating things like an 0-6-0 with slope back tender, and operating turntable and roundhouse.  The place was once a major yard for a coal route, The Lackawanna, I believe.  If your wife is sick of trains, there's a mall right there, which I am told is very good.  Scranton is something of a tourist town.  Mine shaft trips, (some are frightened), there, or nearby.  And, Dunder Mifflin is there, so maybe you'll encounter Pam and Jim at the mall.  (Or, lord spare us, Michael or Dwight) 
                     And while you're at it, you should see Northlandz (sic).  Route 202 in NJ.  (206?)  Near Flemington.  Another place none-railroaders will love; Turntable Junction; major store outlets.  Huge tourist place.  Northlandz is tongue-in-cheek, but astounding.  HO.  Enormous.  Mountains 20 or more feet high.    You stand on a bridge and watch trains fifteen feet below.  Built by one man; Bruce Williams,who is also a professional organist and has built a theater in the building where he plays worth-it-if the-chance-occurs, concerts.  He built the theater from the interior of a theater in Rahway (?) NJ. which he saved, removed, transported, and placed in a specially designed building.  Also has garden and ride-on trains, or some such.  I used to go to his house when he had the Flemington Central Navigation Co. there, but am not up to date.
              Bon Voyage   MorganS


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15082 From: jim heckard Date: 9/9/2010
              Subject: HO Museums
              Sean,
               
                  I guess I will have to hang a sign outside my house " National Vintage HO Model Train Museum". Since I am  half way between Strasburg and Steamtown I'm sure I could get the HO crowd. I feel I have as much to show from all companies as NMRA and Howell Day. I know they both would love to have my collection.
               
                  But that is why there are not places to go. I could not just pass on my collection to be part of a museum. It's worth a little more then a few bucks. While the TCA ( rule you showed ) might not feel HO is worth much I beg to differ especially on certain items and not fancy brass. No HO isn't here as long as others like Lioonel O and Flyer S gauge or companies like Bing, Dorfan and other tin plate nor does it rival some of the prices that larger scale pieces command but give it time.
               
                  If I remember right the largest number of people are in HO and they will want to find out it's history sooner or later. And as the years go by I have watched that number of interested people grow and with it you will see values grow. Now I am not talking about common every day items which all scales have but the older, rarer pieces that will only become harder to find.
               
                    It doesn't matter to me if others agree or not. I'm a firm believer in to each his own but I firmly believe that vintage HO will become the next big time scale train collectable. My opinion.
               
               
                                              Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15083 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 9/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Lancaster and shops
              Morgan,

              That is a great summary of RR and Model RR things to see and enjoy. The only thing I can think of to add is the New Hope & Ivyland in New Hope, PA. They run steam and diesel powered rides, and even have steamer automobile rides. There was once a railcar that ran between Lambertville, NJ, across the Delaware River from New Hope, to Ringoes and Flemington, NJ. I and the family loved it. It was easy to park the car in Lambertville then, and go to the outlet shops in Flemington. Lambertville Station was and is a good restaurant too.

              Since you asked, and for the edification of anyone planning a visit, it's spelled, "Ringoes", NJ.

              On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Morgan Smith <morgantownrr@...> wrote:
               

              Travelers to train stuff,
                  Just wanted to add a couple cents, regarding the Pa. Museum.  By any standard, it's a terrific collection, whatever road or era you might favor.  Many odd items which you have full access to.  Old locos, wooden equipment. work cars, accessible ancient wooden reefers with packing cases, passenger, on and on.  If you're anywhere near, go.  I have ushered a number of semi-resistant none RR'er's, and without exception they enjoyed the large number of displays.  The place is very well designed, mounted, accessible.  Never crowded.  Super model pike in lobby.
                    A couple notes.  I believe they have a NYC E-7 A unit OUTSIDE.  Maybe a B, as well.  I hope I have the nomenclature right.  The long passenger job.  It has the classic striped livery.  BE WARNED:  many pass through and fail to realize there is a huge collection OUTSIDE, which I think is in part, stuff to be refurbished.  I seem to recall they have a turntable out there with stuff on the splayed tracks, albeit no house.  Maybe a heavy duty crane.  Then walk back toward the main building, but go around BACK of the building and you will arrive at the shops, where they are working on stuff.  Usually there's nobody there, and open doors.  And if someone is there, they often enjoy speaking about trains.  Remember, they are more committed than the likes of us.  They actually take up arms and battle the splinters, rust, and no money.
                     Speaking of which, both Kempton Pa, and Ringos NJ (sp?) (near Flemington), have operating steam rides.  More important is that both have shops which are legally closed to the public, but the guys there, working on refurbishing the equipment, are volunteers, don't care that much , and some are sociable and enjoy discussing their seemingly hopeless projects. 
                     You simply have to look down the tracks from the tourist areas and start walking.  You will find amazing stuff that you can climb on, etc.  I haven't been in some while, but in the past have encountered and walked through, DoodleBugs, Bobbers, composite gondolas, GE 44-ton double enders, flat cars withoutwood planking (interesting to study steel frame), cabooses, etc.  Just walk into the shop.  You might run into a curmudgeon who will voice insurance laws, usually not.  I just nodded commiseration, said I'd take my chances, and walked past the guy.  There's flies in every ointment.   If you like hands on and appreciate those who commit to rebuilding, give it a shot. 
                    Important to note that ride-on tourist roads with ten-wheelers and the small like, offer pretty boring trips, (especially since I commuted in those blasted Harriman coaches into NYC for a thousand years), have nearby yards and shops where they don't encourage you to go, but which are far more interesting than the goofy tourist buildings and shops, or the ride itself.
                    The other place is Steamtown in Scranton.  They have a Big Boy.  They also have operating things like an 0-6-0 with slope back tender, and operating turntable and roundhouse.  The place was once a major yard for a coal route, The Lackawanna, I believe.  If your wife is sick of trains, there's a mall right there, which I am told is very good.  Scranton is something of a tourist town.  Mine shaft trips, (some are frightened), there, or nearby.  And, Dunder Mifflin is there, so maybe you'll encounter Pam and Jim at the mall.  (Or, lord spare us, Michael or Dwight) 
                     And while you're at it, you should see Northlandz (sic).  Route 202 in NJ.  (206?)  Near Flemington.  Another place none-railroaders will love; Turntable Junction; major store outlets.  Huge tourist place.  Northlandz is tongue-in-cheek, but astounding.  HO.  Enormous.  Mountains 20 or more feet high.    You stand on a bridge and watch trains fifteen feet below.  Built by one man; Bruce Williams,who is also a professional organist and has built a theater in the building where he plays worth-it-if the-chance-occurs, concerts.  He built the theater from the interior of a theater in Rahway (?) NJ. which he saved, removed, transported, and placed in a specially designed building.  Also has garden and ride-on trains, or some such.  I used to go to his house when he had the Flemington Central Navigation Co. there, but am not up to date.
              Bon Voyage   MorganS




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15084 From: rcjge Date: 9/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              OK Guys!

              I'm pretty sure the guy in question is NOT MIMICKING GOMEZ ADAMS! Don't join any Juries a few of you huh!? ;-)

              He had seen this attribute in operation and I myself was curious about it. Someone suggested that a curve not super-elevated, I think is what he said and by that I expect he meant "banked" could be a contributing characteristic.

              Ray F.W made a good point about the driver height being greater on the Mantua Pacific chassis than the Varney Hudson ones. Could be, certainly a higher COG BUT in HO scale how big is that difference?

              What I liked about the idea was that the Mantua Chassis is much more readily available than the Varney Hudson one.

              -Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have to agree. There is no reason to run such a locomotive so fast.
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15085 From: rcjge Date: 9/10/2010
              Subject: Re: HO Museums
              Hey Jim:

              I think and hope you're right. I collect vintage not so much out of nostalgia but a sense of it's history. I have only really ever had HO starting in the late 60's (Tyco) and moving on. I say not nostalgia since I was born on the cusp of the 50's/60's and much of this was made before. I like it's "mechanical/industrial era sensibility. I have a few "moderns" several actually for operation, but the "feel" of a Varney Steam locomotive or even a Hobbytown Diesel from the 60's - 80's is different. I know a Varney Consolie isn't an exact match for a prototype or a Mantua Pacific either, but they have character my soon to be delivered Bowser CPR C-630'm's won't. I like the idea of Varney and Mantua on the sides of these older loco's because THEY are history themselves not their depiction of a specific prototype.

              Just my 2cents,
              Gareth



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sean,
              >
              > I guess I will have to hang a sign outside my house " National Vintage HO Model Train Museum". Since I am half way between Strasburg and Steamtown I'm sure I could get the HO crowd. I feel I have as much to show from all companies as NMRA and Howell Day. I know they both would love to have my collection.
              >
              > But that is why there are not places to go. I could not just pass on my collection to be part of a museum. It's worth a little more then a few bucks. While the TCA ( rule you showed ) might not feel HO is worth much I beg to differ especially on certain items and not fancy brass. No HO isn't here as long as others like Lioonel O and Flyer S gauge or companies like Bing, Dorfan and other tin plate nor does it rival some of the prices that larger scale pieces command but give it time.
              >
              > If I remember right the largest number of people are in HO and they will want to find out it's history sooner or later. And as the years go by I have watched that number of interested people grow and with it you will see values grow. Now I am not talking about common every day items which all scales have but the older, rarer pieces that will only become harder to find.
              >
              > It doesn't matter to me if others agree or not. I'm a firm believer in to each his own but I firmly believe that vintage HO will become the next big time scale train collectable. My opinion.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15086 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/10/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Perhaps--but most of our model trains are descended from what we consider toy trains.
              gj

              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 8:00 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

              
              I think it may be generally accepted that "toy trains" is not the same as "model trains".  I am involved in both.  The model trains I do not consider to be "toys".  However, my ladyfriend may have another view.
               
              I wonder how many toy tinplate trains are slated for display at the NMRA Howell Day museum?
               
              So, they have different definitions, different magazines, different associations, different clubs, different meets, and, yes, different museums.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:34 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi Chuck,
               
              Please do not take this the wrong way, because I mean no disrespect in any way.
               
              Given the name "National Toy Train" museum, upon entering the museum, I expected to see just that... toy trains of all shapes and sizes... and for the most part, I did. I figured out as soon as i saw the HO display, I knew I was in a TCA established environment without even having have to ask. The name should have been National "Tin Plate" Toy Train museum,
               
              There were small selections/sections on HO Lionel and American Flyer. ...but..
              There were no real difinative references to any of the other histiry involved. Being that you are here in this group, I am sure you can appreciate what I am saying. For me, I still feel that i am new to the hobby of collecting vintage HO and I am constantly on the search now for information and new (to me) old and rare finds, of which I pride my collection on.

               

              To me, the histories of Mantua, Varney, Penn Line, Strombecker and many many others, including the one(or two)-hit-wonders that made one or two early pieces and then vanished are very deserving of being mentioned as well as preserved.

               

              As a American and a vintage HO collector, I find it important to the hobby, to preserve the history of these early American companies and their early products. This is my opinion, but if you are going to create an environment where you are presenting a wide variety of old toy trains to people and you are going to display the historic pieces of many O scale, S scale and the various other scales, both diecast and tin plate, and give historic references to those pieces, then it seems only fair and appropriate that you would do the same for HO and not just mention the two big O scale companies, Lionel and Gilbert.

               

              I understand that most, if not all of these pieces are on loan or dontated, but it makes sence to me that at least some references of these early pieces should be there. The display they had was all on one wall approx 4' tall from the chair-rail to the ceiling and was approx 10-12 feet long. It had many models crammed onto the shelves and there seemed to be no ryme or reason to the order. Items ranged from Bachmann, Life-Like, Tyco, Mantua, Rivarossi, Redball, Bowser, etc... The most vintage items appeared to be a couple of the redball and Mantua freight cars and that was about it. Right now, i can not remember i there were labels below each, I will have to check my photos later, but my hunch is no.

               

              There was a nice variety of high quality brass models though and I will share pictures of what I saw there later this week..

               

              All I can say is... I left the place with an unfortunate feeling of dissapointment in not having seen any real reference to the items that I collect and enjoy...
               
              Kind-of brings me back to this artical I read last year..I will never become a TCA member so long as the sentiments and views shared in this artical are the rules the TCA lives by...
               
              "4. ‘O’ and ‘O-27’ gauge trains (the larger size trains) are normally most collectible, followed by Standard and S gauge. HO and N scale trains are normally not collectible; they’re worth not more than half of their original retail value no matter how old they are  (exceptions are brass locomotives and some limited run plastics)."
               
              The day I read this, I emailed them and asked the author of the artical on "Train Collecting Tips" to send me all the worthless HO junk he ever comes accross... I told him I would even pay him for the stuff... Never heard anything..
               
              The above was taken from this page:
               
              No, please don't get me wrong.. i did not hat the joint.., by no means. I thought it was a terrific display and loved seeing all the pieces. I just thought it was tragic to leave out such an interesting story such as the history of HO.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 2:17:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              The "National Toy Train" museum is operated by the "Train Collectors Association" or "TCA".  (I'm a member by the way.)  The focus is on tinplate trains which means mainly O gauge and Lionel et. al., and also earlier "standard" gauge "pre war" larger toy trains, and some S gauge American Flyer, even a little Lionel OO, and probably some other stuff, too.  I'm surprised there was any HO there at all unless it was Lionel or American Flyer.
               
              I have been to Strasburg quite a few times.  GREAT place to visit.  I would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up.  And I think non-train fans also enjoy themselves very much.
               
              If anybody goes there, find the place (or maybe it is one of the places) with "family dining" where they seat you with a lot of strangers at a big table.  Then they bring out platters and bowls full of food and keep it coming.  (Not a good place for dieters.)  And it's fun chatting with the other tourists.
               
              Incidentally, nearby Kinzers, PA (used to be called Kinzer, PA) is named after a relative of mine.  It is a meeting place for steam traction engine aficionados.  (See http://www.roughandtumble.org/)  If you visit something like their "Spring Steam Up", you can combine that with all the stuff in Strasburg and really get your money's worth.  Apparently they also have some of a shay going there, but I'm not familiar with it.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15087 From: Rhbale@aol.com Date: 9/10/2010
              Subject: New MRH eZine is Available Free
              The September-October 2010 issue of Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine is
              now available at the MRH website. As always, the magazine is free. Check it out at
              www.model-railroad-hobbyist.com

              Articles in this issue include:
              Lessons in Passenger Car modeling
              Part two on Kitbashing a U18B
              Zip Texturing Resurrected
              The On3 Cascade County Narrow Gauge
              The N Scale Scioto Valley trackplan
              Quick and Easy Stumps
              and
              Modeling 22 Floors up (planning a layout for a temporary residence in the
              Middle East)
              Richard Bale, news editor
              Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15088 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/10/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Kinda hard for me to draw the line myself... it's still a train..
               
              They are certainly not tools... so how else do you classify them. If you ask my wife.. In her opinion, I might be a tool and my model trains are definately my toys...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "glenn476@..." <glenn476@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 1:06:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Perhaps--but most of our model trains are descended from what we consider toy trains.
              gj

              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 8:00 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

              
              I think it may be generally accepted that "toy trains" is not the same as "model trains".  I am involved in both.  The model trains I do not consider to be "toys".  However, my ladyfriend may have another view.
               
              I wonder how many toy tinplate trains are slated for display at the NMRA Howell Day museum?
               
              So, they have different definitions, different magazines, different associations, different clubs, different meets, and, yes, different museums.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:34 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi Chuck,
               
              Please do not take this the wrong way, because I mean no disrespect in any way.
               
              Given the name "National Toy Train" museum, upon entering the museum, I expected to see just that... toy trains of all shapes and sizes... and for the most part, I did. I figured out as soon as i saw the HO display, I knew I was in a TCA established environment without even having have to ask. The name should have been National "Tin Plate" Toy Train museum,
               
              There were small selections/sections on HO Lionel and American Flyer. ...but..
              There were no real difinative references to any of the other histiry involved. Being that you are here in this group, I am sure you can appreciate what I am saying. For me, I still feel that i am new to the hobby of collecting vintage HO and I am constantly on the search now for information and new (to me) old and rare finds, of which I pride my collection on.

               

              To me, the histories of Mantua, Varney, Penn Line, Strombecker and many many others, including the one(or two)-hit-wonders that made one or two early pieces and then vanished are very deserving of being mentioned as well as preserved.

               

              As a American and a vintage HO collector, I find it important to the hobby, to preserve the history of these early American companies and their early products. This is my opinion, but if you are going to create an environment where you are presenting a wide variety of old toy trains to people and you are going to display the historic pieces of many O scale, S scale and the various other scales, both diecast and tin plate, and give historic references to those pieces, then it seems only fair and appropriate that you would do the same for HO and not just mention the two big O scale companies, Lionel and Gilbert.

               

              I understand that most, if not all of these pieces are on loan or dontated, but it makes sence to me that at least some references of these early pieces should be there. The display they had was all on one wall approx 4' tall from the chair-rail to the ceiling and was approx 10-12 feet long. It had many models crammed onto the shelves and there seemed to be no ryme or reason to the order. Items ranged from Bachmann, Life-Like, Tyco, Mantua, Rivarossi, Redball, Bowser, etc... The most vintage items appeared to be a couple of the redball and Mantua freight cars and that was about it. Right now, i can not remember i there were labels below each, I will have to check my photos later, but my hunch is no.

               

              There was a nice variety of high quality brass models though and I will share pictures of what I saw there later this week..

               

              All I can say is... I left the place with an unfortunate feeling of dissapointment in not having seen any real reference to the items that I collect and enjoy...
               
              Kind-of brings me back to this artical I read last year..I will never become a TCA member so long as the sentiments and views shared in this artical are the rules the TCA lives by...
               
              "4. ‘O’ and ‘O-27’ gauge trains (the larger size trains) are normally most collectible, followed by Standard and S gauge. HO and N scale trains are normally not collectible; they’re worth not more than half of their original retail value no matter how old they are  (exceptions are brass locomotives and some limited run plastics)."
               
              The day I read this, I emailed them and asked the author of the artical on "Train Collecting Tips" to send me all the worthless HO junk he ever comes accross... I told him I would even pay him for the stuff... Never heard anything..
               
              The above was taken from this page:
               
              No, please don't get me wrong.. i did not hat the joint.., by no means. I thought it was a terrific display and loved seeing all the pieces. I just thought it was tragic to leave out such an interesting story such as the history of HO.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 2:17:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              The "National Toy Train" museum is operated by the "Train Collectors Association" or "TCA".  (I'm a member by the way.)  The focus is on tinplate trains which means mainly O gauge and Lionel et. al., and also earlier "standard" gauge "pre war" larger toy trains, and some S gauge American Flyer, even a little Lionel OO, and probably some other stuff, too.  I'm surprised there was any HO there at all unless it was Lionel or American Flyer.
               
              I have been to Strasburg quite a few times.  GREAT place to visit.  I would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up.  And I think non-train fans also enjoy themselves very much.
               
              If anybody goes there, find the place (or maybe it is one of the places) with "family dining" where they seat you with a lot of strangers at a big table.  Then they bring out platters and bowls full of food and keep it coming.  (Not a good place for dieters.)  And it's fun chatting with the other tourists.
               
              Incidentally, nearby Kinzers, PA (used to be called Kinzer, PA) is named after a relative of mine.  It is a meeting place for steam traction engine aficionados.  (See http://www.roughandtumble.org/)  If you visit something like their "Spring Steam Up", you can combine that with all the stuff in Strasburg and really get your money's worth.  Apparently they also have some of a shay going there, but I'm not familiar with it.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15089 From: Chris B Date: 9/10/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              ok, but then what do you call the toy tools that some guys collect?  you know the miniature pliers and wrenches, and then you have those toy tool chests sears sold in the 50s, and then there's all those steam engine powered toy power tools that couldn't cut anything but looked so cool with all the belts whirring from the little toy steam engine to a miniature table saw?

              I know some of the real tools I have I bought for use as toys, like laser levels and big mother magnets!!

              Chris B.



              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 1:37:56 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Kinda hard for me to draw the line myself... it's still a train..
               
              They are certainly not tools... so how else do you classify them. If you ask my wife.. In her opinion, I might be a tool and my model trains are definately my toys...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "glenn476@..." <glenn476@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 1:06:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Perhaps--but most of our model trains are descended from what we consider toy trains.
              gj

              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 8:00 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

              
              I think it may be generally accepted that "toy trains" is not the same as "model trains".  I am involved in both.  The model trains I do not consider to be "toys".  However, my ladyfriend may have another view.
               
              I wonder how many toy tinplate trains are slated for display at the NMRA Howell Day museum?
               
              So, they have different definitions, different magazines, different associations, different clubs, different meets, and, yes, different museums.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 6:34 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi Chuck,
               
              Please do not take this the wrong way, because I mean no disrespect in any way.
               
              Given the name "National Toy Train" museum, upon entering the museum, I expected to see just that... toy trains of all shapes and sizes... and for the most part, I did. I figured out as soon as i saw the HO display, I knew I was in a TCA established environment without even having have to ask. The name should have been National "Tin Plate" Toy Train museum,
               
              There were small selections/sections on HO Lionel and American Flyer. ...but..
              There were no real difinative references to any of the other histiry involved. Being that you are here in this group, I am sure you can appreciate what I am saying. For me, I still feel that i am new to the hobby of collecting vintage HO and I am constantly on the search now for information and new (to me) old and rare finds, of which I pride my collection on.

               

              To me, the histories of Mantua, Varney, Penn Line, Strombecker and many many others, including the one(or two)-hit-wonders that made one or two early pieces and then vanished are very deserving of being mentioned as well as preserved.

               

              As a American and a vintage HO collector, I find it important to the hobby, to preserve the history of these early American companies and their early products. This is my opinion, but if you are going to create an environment where you are presenting a wide variety of old toy trains to people and you are going to display the historic pieces of many O scale, S scale and the various other scales, both diecast and tin plate, and give historic references to those pieces, then it seems only fair and appropriate that you would do the same for HO and not just mention the two big O scale companies, Lionel and Gilbert.

               

              I understand that most, if not all of these pieces are on loan or dontated, but it makes sence to me that at least some references of these early pieces should be there. The display they had was all on one wall approx 4' tall from the chair-rail to the ceiling and was approx 10-12 feet long. It had many models crammed onto the shelves and there seemed to be no ryme or reason to the order. Items ranged from Bachmann, Life-Like, Tyco, Mantua, Rivarossi, Redball, Bowser, etc... The most vintage items appeared to be a couple of the redball and Mantua freight cars and that was about it. Right now, i can not remember i there were labels below each, I will have to check my photos later, but my hunch is no.

               

              There was a nice variety of high quality brass models though and I will share pictures of what I saw there later this week..

               

              All I can say is... I left the place with an unfortunate feeling of dissapointment in not having seen any real reference to the items that I collect and enjoy...
               
              Kind-of brings me back to this artical I read last year..I will never become a TCA member so long as the sentiments and views shared in this artical are the rules the TCA lives by...
               
              "4. ‘O’ and ‘O-27’ gauge trains (the larger size trains) are normally most collectible, followed by Standard and S gauge. HO and N scale trains are normally not collectible; they’re worth not more than half of their original retail value no matter how old they are  (exceptions are brass locomotives and some limited run plastics)."
               
              The day I read this, I emailed them and asked the author of the artical on "Train Collecting Tips" to send me all the worthless HO junk he ever comes accross... I told him I would even pay him for the stuff... Never heard anything..
               
              The above was taken from this page:
               
              No, please don't get me wrong.. i did not hat the joint.., by no means. I thought it was a terrific display and loved seeing all the pieces. I just thought it was tragic to leave out such an interesting story such as the history of HO.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "ckinzer@..." <ckinzer@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 2:17:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              The "National Toy Train" museum is operated by the "Train Collectors Association" or "TCA".  (I'm a member by the way.)  The focus is on tinplate trains which means mainly O gauge and Lionel et. al., and also earlier "standard" gauge "pre war" larger toy trains, and some S gauge American Flyer, even a little Lionel OO, and probably some other stuff, too.  I'm surprised there was any HO there at all unless it was Lionel or American Flyer.
               
              I have been to Strasburg quite a few times.  GREAT place to visit.  I would give it 10 to 12 thumbs up.  And I think non-train fans also enjoy themselves very much.
               
              If anybody goes there, find the place (or maybe it is one of the places) with "family dining" where they seat you with a lot of strangers at a big table.  Then they bring out platters and bowls full of food and keep it coming.  (Not a good place for dieters.)  And it's fun chatting with the other tourists.
               
              Incidentally, nearby Kinzers, PA (used to be called Kinzer, PA) is named after a relative of mine.  It is a meeting place for steam traction engine aficionados.  (See http://www.roughandtumble.org/)  If you visit something like their "Spring Steam Up", you can combine that with all the stuff in Strasburg and really get your money's worth.  Apparently they also have some of a shay going there, but I'm not familiar with it.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:55 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Hi all!
              I drove to Strasburg, PA with the family this past weekend.

              It is all kinds of RR fun for the whole family. On saturday, after we arrived and checked into the The Red Caboose Hotel/Motel, we went to the National Toy train museum. We then went to the PRR museum. The toy train museum was severly lacking in just about every level when it comes to anything HO. It was ort of placed up against one wall and seemed sort of like an after-thought. I was quite dissapointed in that regard.

              This area is right in the heart of Amish county so we then took a buggy ride to an Amish farm for a farm tour.. (got the 2-cent shop tour and then was immediatly directed to the Amish store where we waited approx 15 for the trip back). Before the ride, the kids went to the small petting farm just behind the Red Caboose Hotel parking lot.

              That evening we ate at the Iron Horse Inn which has been serving fine food and drink for more than 100 years. It was a bit expensive, but the food portions were huge and very good. The service was top notch as well.

              That evening we went back to the caboose and watched TV with the kids until it was time to go to bed.

              The next morning we ate breakfast at a buffet before going to the Strausburg RR station to partake in a ~10 mile steam locomotive ride.

              After the ride, we ventured to the Choo Choo Barn model RR layout museum before ending the Strausburg trip with an ice cream treat at the Strasburg Country Store & Creamery at 1 West Main Street, Strasburg, PA 17579-1516. The ice cream was very tasty and my kids loved every minute of the trip.

              On our way home was the crowning jewel of the trip. We sopped at Jim Heckards and payed homage to his most deserving and interesting collection. We sat down for a pleasant meal and some good conversation. I will be forever greatful to Jim and his lovely wife for opening his home and hospitality to my wife, two kids and myself. It was most certainly the climax to a most nearly perfect weekend journey.

              Thanks Jim!

              Your friend!

              Sean




              Group: vintageHO Message: 15090 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/10/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              For myself, I am not looking for the defination. When I think of the line "National Toy Train Museum" instantly what comes to mind are ALL trains in any scale smaller that was used for recreation, hobby and play and not those used for industrial purposes.
               
              I did not really have a definition or line drawn when I visited the museum.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 4:21:15 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              ok, but then what do you call the toy tools that some guys collect?  you know the miniature pliers and wrenches, and then you have those toy tool chests sears sold in the 50s, and then there's all those steam engine powered toy power tools that couldn't cut anything but looked so cool with all the belts whirring from the little toy steam engine to a miniature table saw?

              I know some of the real tools I have I bought for use as toys, like laser levels and big mother magnets!!

              Chris B.



              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 1:37:56 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Kinda hard for me to draw the line myself... it's still a train..
               
              They are certainly not tools... so how else do you classify them. If you ask my wife.. In her opinion, I might be a tool and my model trains are definately my toys...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!




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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15091 From: Chris B Date: 9/10/2010
              Subject: Re: My Mecca this past weekend!
              Sean, I'm just happy to play with them, or work on them, or just watch them run, I don't care what you call them either.  btw, I'm happy to have bought a monster solid brass pipe snowplow project model from you on ebay, I've got just the drive train to go in it, an old super heavy Suydam dual truck drive from a brass Butte, Anaconda and Pacific boxcab electric.  It's as close as Suydam ever got to Hobbytown pulling power, and with a Pittman DC 71 stolen from a Hobbytown F unit, it should at least be able to pull that solid pipe shell up some snowy grades!

              I don't model Santa Fe, but I couldn't resist it.

              Chris B.


              speaking again of toy tools, check out

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310249509298

              HO/HOn3: Two cast metal carpenter figures, one with sleeves rolled up sawing a board, and one with hammer and nail apron; along with 26 photo-etched brass hand tools for carpenters, a maintenance shop or blacksmith's...






              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 4:53:59 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              For myself, I am not looking for the defination. When I think of the line "National Toy Train Museum" instantly what comes to mind are ALL trains in any scale smaller that was used for recreation, hobby and play and not those used for industrial purposes.
               
              I did not really have a definition or line drawn when I visited the museum.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Chris B <chrisb_acw_rr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 4:21:15 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              ok, but then what do you call the toy tools that some guys collect?  you know the miniature pliers and wrenches, and then you have those toy tool chests sears sold in the 50s, and then there's all those steam engine powered toy power tools that couldn't cut anything but looked so cool with all the belts whirring from the little toy steam engine to a miniature table saw?

              I know some of the real tools I have I bought for use as toys, like laser levels and big mother magnets!!

              Chris B.



              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, September 10, 2010 1:37:56 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] My Mecca this past weekend!

               

              Kinda hard for me to draw the line myself... it's still a train..
               
              They are certainly not tools... so how else do you classify them. If you ask my wife.. In her opinion, I might be a tool and my model trains are definately my toys...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!




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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15092 From: Randolph Torres Date: 9/10/2010
              Subject: Books, magazines and art work which might be of interest to this gro

                A Treasury of Railroad Folklore                                         B.A. Botkin & Alvin F. Harlow                     Bonanza Books                         $5.00

              O&W "Long life and slow death of the New York Ontareo & Western

              William F. Helmer

              Howell North

               $9.00

              A Rail Journey Through New England

              The 470 Railroad Club

              The 470 Railroad Club

               $13.00

              Through Covered Bridges to Concord

              Edgar T. Mead Jr.

              The Stephen Green Press

               $ 9.00

              Train Wreck

              Wesley Griswald

              The Stephen Green Press

               $ 9.00

              Guide to Tourist RR & Museums 1987

              Kalambach Books

              Kalambach Books

               $ 2.00

              American Shortline Railway Guide 1990

              Edward A. Lewis

              Kalambach Books

               $ 2.00

              American Shortline Railway Guide 1986

              Edward A. Lewis

              Kalambach Books

               $ 2.00

              American Railroad Radio Frequenciies 1995

              Garry Strum

              Kalambach Books

               $ 2.00

              Railways of the World (1905-1919)

              O.S. Nock

              The MacMillan Company

               $ 2.00

              ABCs  of Building Model  RR cars

              Wayne & Mary Wesolowski

              TAB Books

              $  5.00

              303 Tips for Detailing Model Scenery

              And Structurs

              Frary & Hayden

              Kalmbach Books

              $ 5.00

              DCC Made Easy

              Lionel Strang

              Kalmbach Books

              $ 5.00

               

              5.00

              How to wire your Model Railroad                       Linn H. Westcott                    

               

               

              `Magazine Back Issues                     

              Classic Trains

               Primiere Issue

                                   1999

                    $3.00

               

              Classic Trains

              Summer

              2000

              $2.00

               

              Classic Trains

              Fall

              2000

              $2.00

               

              Classic Trains

              Spring

              2001

              $2.00

               

              Classic Trains

              Summer

              2001

              $2.00

               

              Classic Trains

              Fall

              2001

              $2.00

               

              Classic Trains

              Spring

              2002

              $2.00

               

              Classic Trains

              Winter

              2002

              $2.00

               

              Classic Trains  (Dream Trains)

              Spring

              2003

              $2.00

               

              Classic Trains

              Winter

              2003

              $2.00

               

              Classic Trains

              Winter

              2008

              $2.00

               

               

              Model Railroader

              March

              1992

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              June

              1996

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              June

              1998

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              October

              2003

              $0.50

               

               

              `Magazine Back Issues                     

               

               

               

              Model Railroader

              April

              2004

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              May

              2005

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              June

              2008

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              October

              2008

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              January

              2008

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              April

              2008

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              May

              2008

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              July

              2008

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              August

              2008

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              September

              2008

              $0.50

               

              Model Railroader

              November

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15093 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 9/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 6:09:48 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?

               

                        Since I only have assembled Mantua Pacifics and Varney Hudsons I don't want to take apart to weigh each. As what to compare I don't think there is much weight difference or tracking abilities unless it is a Super Varney engine with equalized and flexing drivers. As someone mention a flat curve, or S curve, at to high a speed is easy to tip an engine. I have seen and had plastic boiler Rivarossi Mikes and Pacifics fall off the track and even then to the floor.
               
                  The Varney streamlined boiler is very heavy and most likely top heavy but again the speed any engine is run is critical. I agree with the two suggestions Don S made would be helpful and if you want take the other suggestion to mill out the body but remember it is the weight of the Varney streamlined boiler that helps it pull a lot of cars.
               
                                                            Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?

               

              Hi Jim:

              I was wondering, you must have a Mantua Pacific chassis in your possession? Could per chance weigh or compare that chassis to the Varney Hudson one? This fella has the shell right down about where it should be ruling out the "high-waisted" problem I was thinking might be the problem. OTOH the shell itself, the casting I would tend to think would be heavier in the top, deeper part of the casting. Is it not, perhaps contributing to the top heavy problem magnified by his chassis choice?

              -Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gareth,
              >
              > My Varney streamlined shell runs on a Varney 4-6-4 Hudson frame with no problem at NORMAL speeds ( especially no tipping ). Now just how fast would you have to go to MAYBE tip it over I don't know and don't intend to try.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: rcjge
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 12:46 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Varney Streamlined Hudson, top heavy?
              >
              >
              >
              > Hey Gents:
              >
              > Just following up on something mentioned on the Tyco Forum. One of the members built a Varney Streamline Hudson shell onto a Mantua Pacific chassis. It seemed like a nice setup but he complained it was top heavy, couldn't be operated at higher speeds, tipped over.
              >
              > My question is, is anyone running one of these on a Varney Hudson chassis or some other and what have your experiences been? More stable, similar???
              >
              > Any help would be appreciated.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15094 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 9/11/2010
              Subject: Willy's Boxcar - (Walthers' Silver Streak)
              Willy's Boxcar - (Walthers' Silver Streak)

               

              Hi All,

               

              (Almost back from a summer of computer problems, using the library PC, painting, vacatiosn etc and have missed my time here and all of you that have made this hobby so enjoyable for me.  I should be back "full time" this week.  Here is some information I came across while on "hiatus.")

               

              Not "Boxcar Willy," the "As Seen on TV" country singer who sold millions of albums via the late night TV commercials in the 1980's, but "Willy Walthers," the long-time mascot and namesake of 'ole  William K. Walthers himself.  The little cartoon guy with the elf ears and very large head topped with engineer's cap, first started appearing on Walthers' paperwork and ads in the early 1940's and was still going strong into the 1980's.  Here is an example from HO Seeker:

               

               

              About mid-way though Walthers ownership and production of the Silver Streak line, they produced a series of promotional kits with a blue Willy Walthers emblazoned on the yellow wood sheathed boxcar sides.  On the right of the door was a slogan, "ANOTHER CARLOAD OF CRAFT TRAINS FROM WALTHERS GOING TO 'Your Local Hobby Shop" or actually the name of at least 27 other hobby shops located in the USA and Europe. From a photo of an assembled car in the 50th Anniversary Walthers catalog (1982) the car ends and roof were to be painted blue. 

               

              An ad on page 115 of (August?) 1989 Railroad Model Craftsman noted that only the generic car could be purchased directly from Walthers.  Each of the remaining 27 differently worded cars would have to be ordered direct from the specific hobby shop.  In most cases, Walthers noted that quantities ere limited in that only 55 cars were manufactured for each shop!  It appears that no matter which hobby shop was named, all cars carried the reporting marks of WKWX 5601.

               

              I ran across a pair of car sides about a year ago at a local show, "WILLIAMSTOWN JUNCTION" still sealed in their plastic sleeve for 50 cents.  I had recently found a partially and neatly completed silver streak box car in a larger lot, so aside from paint and finishing details, this will be an easy project to complete, as I had plenty of spare SS parts.  But of course, that sent me on a hunt to find more information which i located in the 1979 ad.

               

              Does anyone else have one or more of these traditional Silver Streak cars or kits? 

               

              Here is the list of the "Road" or hobby shop names given, and location: "YOUR LOCAL HOBBY SHOP";  (Walthers' own) "TERMINAL HOBBY SHOP", Milwaukee, WI; CHICK'S HOBBY Town, Lincoln, NE; LEISURE TIME HOBBY, East Moline, IL; J&W MODEL TRAINS< INC., Coloma, MI; THE AARDVARK-CLARE, Clare, MI; HARPER'S HOBBY SHOP, Riverside, CA; TRANS-EUROPE PARIS, FRANCE, Paris, FR; HAVELOCK HOBBY HOUSE, Havelock, NC; HOBBY AND TRAIN LAND, Wichita, KS; COOK'S COLLECTORS CORNER, Shreeveport, LA: WILLIAMSTOWN JUNCTION, Williamstown, NJ; RTR HO MODEL TRAINS, Brooklyn, NY; THE VILLAGE MODEL SHOP, Ontario, CA; MODEL-RAILWAYS-LONDON, ENGLAND, London, UK; THE HOBBY SHOP, Raleigh, NC; ALL IN 1 HOBBY, Milwaukee, WI; LEVINE'S HOBBY HUT, Colorado Springs, CO; TAMMIES HOBBIES, Beverton, OR; VIKING HOBBIES, INC. Billings, MT; STEAM 'N WHEELS, Dallas, TX; HOBBY HEAVEN, St. Joseph, MO; FAMILY HOBBY SHOP, Vandalia, OH; DeWITT's RAILROADS, Orlando, FL; ALLIED MODEL TRAINS, Los Angeles, CA; H&H HOBBY SALES, Sarasota, FL; HOBBY HOUSE, Jamesville, WI; and the HOBBY FORUM, Ventura, CA.

               

              Will post a photo of the completed car soon.

               

              W. Jay W.


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15095 From: Garry Spear Date: 9/12/2010
              Subject: Re: FS: MANTUA Sinclair tank Car, Paper Wrapper, Winton 2-6-6-6
              Jim,

              The Sinclair tank car will be mailed Monday.  You can tell Bill "it's in the mail".

              Garry Spear

              On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 6:50 PM, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
               

              Gary S,
               
                  Interested in the Mantua Sinclair tanker if no one else has claimed it. Contact me off site with your address and I will mail you a check at jimheck@...
               
                                                               Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 5:17 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] FS: MANTUA Sinclair tank Car, Paper Wrapper, Winton 2-6-6-6

               

              Thinning my vintage HO collection. For sale Mantua Sinclair tank car,
              paper wrapper. Car appears to be complete, needs painting touch up.
              Price 14.00 + 5 shipping.
              Photos
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985b.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985c.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S985d.jpg

              A Winton 2-6-6-6, needs work, mostly complete, scratch built tender.
              Price 75.00 or best offer + 20.00 shipping (yes, it's that heavy; over
              5 lbs. with the shipping and packing.).
              Photos
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986b.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986c.jpg
              http://dgstrains.fileave.com/S986d.jpg

              These will be listed Sunday evening on eBay if there are no takers.

              I currently have 7 Silver Streak kits, 1 Main Line kit and an AMBROID
              1 of 5000 MATHIESON DRY ICE ASSEMBLED Car on eBay.

              http://shop.ebay.com/garlen/m.html

              Local Pickup, no shipping, can be arranged in the Phila. PA Area.

              Garry Spear


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15096 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 9/15/2010
              Subject: Missed one this past week!
              Just goes to show, sometimes the early bird does get the worm..

              Judging by the bidder's masked id a***w(####) I can tell it was Jim aka swapmonster that won this Varney Super Pacific for $20.50 as a BUY-IT-NOW!

              Lucky guy!

              http://cgi.ebay.com/HO-4-6-2-Locomotive-Metal-very-old-/400149676192?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item5d2ac780a0

              Sean
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15097 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 9/15/2010
              Subject: Pre-war H0 to trade
              Greetings all!
               
              I have rejoined this group after a break of a few years. I'm looking to trade some of my pre-war H0 models and maybe something I have might interest someone reading this e-mail.
               
              I have an MDC Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher and tender, which I believe is from their fairly early production. It's not perfect but not bad and definitely restorable (or ideal as a source of spares). Also some wooden freight cars from the 1930s, some kit built (e.g. Red Ball) and some nicely scratch built with the date they were made painted underneath. There's a Borden streamlined milk tank for instance. I also have some wartime Megow Hobbycraft cardboard H0 lineside structure kits, boxed and unmade.
               
              What I'm looking for is anything made in Britain in H0 scale of the same 1928-1940 period, either scratch built or professionally made by firms like Reidpath and Bonds. There's not a lot of it around, I know, but we can dream!
               
              Feel free to e-mail me on or off-list.
               
              Best wishes,
              Andy Emmerson.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15098 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 9/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Pre-war H0 to trade
              One gauge of how old it is--I have a 1948 kit for the 0-6-0--the cab is at least five pieces.  Newer ones are one piece.  gj

              Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 2:58 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pre-war H0 to trade

              Greetings all!
               
              I have rejoined this group after a break of a few years. I'm looking to trade some of my pre-war H0 models and maybe something I have might interest someone reading this e-mail.
               
              I have an MDC Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher and tender, which I believe is from their fairly early production. It's not perfect but not bad and definitely restorable (or ideal as a source of spares). Also some wooden freight cars from the 1930s, some kit built (e.g. Red Ball) and some nicely scratch built with the date they were made painted underneath. There's a Borden streamlined milk tank for instance. I also have some wartime Megow Hobbycraft cardboard H0 lineside structure kits, boxed and unmade.
               
              What I'm looking for is anything made in Britain in H0 scale of the same 1928-1940 period, either scratch built or professionally made by firms like Reidpath and Bonds. There's not a lot of it around, I know, but we can dream!
               
              Feel free to e-mail me on or off-list.
               
              Best wishes,
              Andy Emmerson.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15099 From: jim heckard Date: 9/16/2010
              Subject: Any ideas ???
               
               
                   I am in the process of cleaning up parts from what I believed to be the original castings for a pre war Conover 2-10-2 ( although now I'm not totally sure they are original and I actually have a "radical" idea about these )  Just some statements in a 1939 Conover catalog Ray FW had previously shared with me where it keeps talking about "machined parts already cleaned and "very easy to clean parts". Having pre war items like the Knapp Mountain I know this type of casting can be smooth. Yet others who have them or had built them have said how hard it is to clean up the parts and also to assemble the engine / tender and I know others have mentioned a possible re-issue or copy already assembled being made around 1950. Still searching for those answers.
               
                     The kit I have, minus any paperwork or box, are exactly the same parts as the catalog and others I have seen and are a sand casting . The surface seems to be slightly pitted. I cleaned up casting marks and areas where the parts were attached to the "sprues" but I am left with these pitted areas to smooth . While not very deep it will still need to be filed, sanded or what ever to finish them.  It will be near impossible to clean / smooth certain areas with details on inside corners. I am searching for any ideas on how to do this.
               
                I am wondering about a rock or gem polishing type system as I don't believe a sand blast type of process will help. Any thoughts ?
               
                                                                      Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15100 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/16/2010
              Subject: Re: Any ideas ??? [2 Attachments]
              Use cold chisels of varying widths.  The blades must be extremely sharp and can be reground to resemble a wood chisel with only one sloping surface rather than "V" shaped.  The chisel can be used with hand pressure to remove most grainy defects.  Use light hammer taps with the chisel when hand pressure is not enough.  I have never seen the loco you have but I have used this method in several instances with imperfect castings where they had sand grain like defects on the surfaces.  With a little practice you can get very smooth results with the cold chisels.  You can even grind a small chisel to a very narrow width for tight places.  I have used cold chisels in this manner to remove cast brass rivet heads when making alterations or to get a welded body instead of a riveted body, especially on tenders and rebuilt passenger cars.

              Another method you could use is to use a good auto primer and apply several thicknesses, sanding the large areas between applications, until you get a more suitable smooth finish.  This is the method used by auto painters when filler is used on creases and dents.  Prepare the body, add the filler, sand it, apply a heavy coat of primer, sand it...  and repeat the application and sanding process until you are satisfied with the smoothness.  I recommend the primer method since the castings are not highly detailed and no rivets.  Both methods work well if you take your time and exercise care and patience.
              Happy railroading...
              Don Staton in VA
              ===========================================================================
              On 9/16/2010 1:33 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               
               
                   I am in the process of cleaning up parts from what I believed to be the original castings for a pre war Conover 2-10-2 ( although now I'm not totally sure they are original and I actually have a "radical" idea about these )  Just some statements in a 1939 Conover catalog Ray FW had previously shared with me where it keeps talking about "machined parts already cleaned and "very easy to clean parts". Having pre war items like the Knapp Mountain I know this type of casting can be smooth. Yet others who have them or had built them have said how hard it is to clean up the parts and also to assemble the engine / tender and I know others have mentioned a possible re-issue or copy already assembled being made around 1950. Still searching for those answers.
               
                     The kit I have, minus any paperwork or box, are exactly the same parts as the catalog and others I have seen and are a sand casting . The surface seems to be slightly pitted. I cleaned up casting marks and areas where the parts were attached to the "sprues" but I am left with these pitted areas to smooth . While not very deep it will still need to be filed, sanded or what ever to finish them.  It will be near impossible to clean / smooth certain areas with details on inside corners. I am searching for any ideas on how to do this.
               
                I am wondering about a rock or gem polishing type system as I don't believe a sand blast type of process will help. Any thoughts ?
               
                                                                      Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15101 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/16/2010
              Subject: Re: Any ideas ???
              JIM, ...AND YOU WILL NOT NEED THE BODY FILLER IN MOST APPLICATIONS.... Sorry I forgot to mention that.
              Don Staton in VA
              =================================================================

              On 9/16/2010 3:32 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:
               

              Use cold chisels of varying widths.  The blades must be extremely sharp and can be reground to resemble a wood chisel with only one sloping surface rather than "V" shaped.  The chisel can be used with hand pressure to remove most grainy defects.  Use light hammer taps with the chisel when hand pressure is not enough.  I have never seen the loco you have but I have used this method in several instances with imperfect castings where they had sand grain like defects on the surfaces.  With a little practice you can get very smooth results with the cold chisels.  You can even grind a small chisel to a very narrow width for tight places.  I have used cold chisels in this manner to remove cast brass rivet heads when making alterations or to get a welded body instead of a riveted body, especially on tenders and rebuilt passenger cars.

              Another method you could use is to use a good auto primer and apply several thicknesses, sanding the large areas between applications, until you get a more suitable smooth finish.  This is the method used by auto painters when filler is used on creases and dents.  Prepare the body, add the filler, sand it, apply a heavy coat of primer, sand it...  and repeat the application and sanding process until you are satisfied with the smoothness.  I recommend the primer method since the castings are not highly detailed and no rivets.  Both methods work well if you take your time and exercise care and patience.
              Happy railroading...
              Don Staton in VA
              ===========================================================================
              On 9/16/2010 1:33 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               
               
                   I am in the process of cleaning up parts from what I believed to be the original castings for a pre war Conover 2-10-2 ( although now I'm not totally sure they are original and I actually have a "radical" idea about these )  Just some statements in a 1939 Conover catalog Ray FW had previously shared with me where it keeps talking about "machined parts already cleaned and "very easy to clean parts". Having pre war items like the Knapp Mountain I know this type of casting can be smooth. Yet others who have them or had built them have said how hard it is to clean up the parts and also to assemble the engine / tender and I know others have mentioned a possible re-issue or copy already assembled being made around 1950. Still searching for those answers.
               
                     The kit I have, minus any paperwork or box, are exactly the same parts as the catalog and others I have seen and are a sand casting . The surface seems to be slightly pitted. I cleaned up casting marks and areas where the parts were attached to the "sprues" but I am left with these pitted areas to smooth . While not very deep it will still need to be filed, sanded or what ever to finish them.  It will be near impossible to clean / smooth certain areas with details on inside corners. I am searching for any ideas on how to do this.
               
                I am wondering about a rock or gem polishing type system as I don't believe a sand blast type of process will help. Any thoughts ?
               
                                                                      Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15102 From: Chris B Date: 9/16/2010
              Subject: Re: Any ideas ???
              Jim in those small inside curved corners, a set of curved riffler files of varios shapes might be helful, both as files and as curved sandind stick forms with coarse (80 grit) silicon carbide wet/dry paper wrapped arond the. Business end of a crved riffler file- slow going, but the won't dig in as easily as any straight tool on those inside curves.
              Chris B.
              From: "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>
              Sender: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:19:54 -0400
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any ideas ???

               

              JIM, ...AND YOU WILL NOT NEED THE BODY FILLER IN MOST APPLICATIONS.... Sorry I forgot to mention that.
              Don Staton in VA
              =================================================================

              On 9/16/2010 3:32 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:
               

              Use cold chisels of varying widths.  The blades must be extremely sharp and can be reground to resemble a wood chisel with only one sloping surface rather than "V" shaped.  The chisel can be used with hand pressure to remove most grainy defects.  Use light hammer taps with the chisel when hand pressure is not enough.  I have never seen the loco you have but I have used this method in several instances with imperfect castings where they had sand grain like defects on the surfaces.  With a little practice you can get very smooth results with the cold chisels.  You can even grind a small chisel to a very narrow width for tight places.  I have used cold chisels in this manner to remove cast brass rivet heads when making alterations or to get a welded body instead of a riveted body, especially on tenders and rebuilt passenger cars.

              Another method you could use is to use a good auto primer and apply several thicknesses, sanding the large areas between applications, until you get a more suitable smooth finish.  This is the method used by auto painters when filler is used on creases and dents.  Prepare the body, add the filler, sand it, apply a heavy coat of primer, sand it...  and repeat the application and sanding process until you are satisfied with the smoothness.  I recommend the primer method since the castings are not highly detailed and no rivets.  Both methods work well if you take your time and exercise care and patience.
              Happy railroading...
              Don Staton in VA
              ===========================================================================
              On 9/16/2010 1:33 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               
               
                   I am in the process of cleaning up parts from what I believed to be the original castings for a pre war Conover 2-10-2 ( although now I'm not totally sure they are original and I actually have a "radical" idea about these )  Just some statements in a 1939 Conover catalog Ray FW had previously shared with me where it keeps talking about "machined parts already cleaned and "very easy to clean parts". Having pre war items like the Knapp Mountain I know this type of casting can be smooth. Yet others who have them or had built them have said how hard it is to clean up the parts and also to assemble the engine / tender and I know others have mentioned a possible re-issue or copy already assembled being made around 1950. Still searching for those answers.
               
                     The kit I have, minus any paperwork or box, are exactly the same parts as the catalog and others I have seen and are a sand casting . The surface seems to be slightly pitted. I cleaned up casting marks and areas where the parts were attached to the "sprues" but I am left with these pitted areas to smooth . While not very deep it will still need to be filed, sanded or what ever to finish them.  It will be near impossible to clean / smooth certain areas with details on inside corners. I am searching for any ideas on how to do this.
               
                I am wondering about a rock or gem polishing type system as I don't believe a sand blast type of process will help. Any thoughts ?
               
                                                                      Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15103 From: jim heckard Date: 9/16/2010
              Subject: any ideas ?
              Don,
               
                    I'm sending these close ups that I hope you can see what I'm up against as far as the pitting effect I'm talking about. Hopefully you can see some areas that I have already did some grinding, filing and smoothing compared to areas not done.
               
                  I don't mind spending the time especially in more open spaces like the tender body. I think nothing of using little files, emery cloth and even those large nail file boards ( black and pink ) ladies use cut up to get into some corners. It is the areas of cast on detail where I am stumped. I think you can see that on the boiler and some of the small pieces.
               
                  I appreciate your ideas and will keep them in mind but I'm afraid these detailed and tight areas are going to be a real pain. I don't intend to throw the parts away. While I would have liked to keep the parts unpainted even if finally assembled I will think about a coating of some kind and painting them but I think I will still have a hard time dealing with little already cast detail. That is why I was thinking of some kind of polishing or a deburring machine where the parts are tumbled in some sort of abrasive , maybe coarser to start and finer down the road.
               
                 Again thanks for responding. Really appreciate any ideas.
               
                                                                          Jim H
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15104 From: jim heckard Date: 9/16/2010
              Subject: Re: Any ideas ???
              Chris,
               
                         Thanks for your idea. I think these files had been mentioned before. I have a couple of sets of small files but I don't know if that is what they are called. I don't mind time consuming filing or sanding. I actually enjoy seeing what I can do. This will be a loooong time project for sure. After I get the parts ready I still have to drill and tap all the holes. Should be fun not having taps and using self tapping screws before any fitting or assembly takes place.
               
                                                                     Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              To: Vint Ho
              Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any ideas ???

               

              Jim in those small inside curved corners, a set of curved riffler files of varios shapes might be helful, both as files and as curved sandind stick forms with coarse (80 grit) silicon carbide wet/dry paper wrapped arond the. Business end of a crved riffler file- slow going, but the won't dig in as easily as any straight tool on those inside curves.
              Chris B.


              From: "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>
              Sender: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:19:54 -0400
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any ideas ???

               

              JIM, ...AND YOU WILL NOT NEED THE BODY FILLER IN MOST APPLICATIONS.... Sorry I forgot to mention that.
              Don Staton in VA
              =================================================================

              On 9/16/2010 3:32 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

               

              Use cold chisels of varying widths.  The blades must be extremely sharp and can be reground to resemble a wood chisel with only one sloping surface rather than "V" shaped.  The chisel can be used with hand pressure to remove most grainy defects.  Use light hammer taps with the chisel when hand pressure is not enough.  I have never seen the loco you have but I have used this method in several instances with imperfect castings where they had sand grain like defects on the surfaces.  With a little practice you can get very smooth results with the cold chisels.  You can even grind a small chisel to a very narrow width for tight places.  I have used cold chisels in this manner to remove cast brass rivet heads when making alterations or to get a welded body instead of a riveted body, especially on tenders and rebuilt passenger cars.

              Another method you could use is to use a good auto primer and apply several thicknesses, sanding the large areas between applications, until you get a more suitable smooth finish.  This is the method used by auto painters when filler is used on creases and dents.  Prepare the body, add the filler, sand it, apply a heavy coat of primer, sand it...  and repeat the application and sanding process until you are satisfied with the smoothness.  I recommend the primer method since the castings are not highly detailed and no rivets.  Both methods work well if you take your time and exercise care and patience.
              Happy railroading...
              Don Staton in VA
              ===========================================================================
              On 9/16/2010 1:33 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               
               
                   I am in the process of cleaning up parts from what I believed to be the original castings for a pre war Conover 2-10-2 ( although now I'm not totally sure they are original and I actually have a "radical" idea about these )  Just some statements in a 1939 Conover catalog Ray FW had previously shared with me where it keeps talking about "machined parts already cleaned and "very easy to clean parts". Having pre war items like the Knapp Mountain I know this type of casting can be smooth. Yet others who have them or had built them have said how hard it is to clean up the parts and also to assemble the engine / tender and I know others have mentioned a possible re-issue or copy already assembled being made around 1950. Still searching for those answers.
               
                     The kit I have, minus any paperwork or box, are exactly the same parts as the catalog and others I have seen and are a sand casting . The surface seems to be slightly pitted. I cleaned up casting marks and areas where the parts were attached to the "sprues" but I am left with these pitted areas to smooth . While not very deep it will still need to be filed, sanded or what ever to finish them.  It will be near impossible to clean / smooth certain areas with details on inside corners. I am searching for any ideas on how to do this.
               
                I am wondering about a rock or gem polishing type system as I don't believe a sand blast type of process will help. Any thoughts ?
               
                                                                      Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15105 From: Chris B Date: 9/16/2010
              Subject: Re: Any ideas ???
              Attachments :






              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 5:48:50 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any ideas ???

               

              Chris,
               
                         Thanks for your idea. I think these files had been mentioned before. I have a couple of sets of small files but I don't know if that is what they are called. I don't mind time consuming filing or sanding. I actually enjoy seeing what I can do. This will be a loooong time project for sure. After I get the parts ready I still have to drill and tap all the holes. Should be fun not having taps and using self tapping screws before any fitting or assembly takes place.
               
                                                                     Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Chris B
              To: Vint Ho
              Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 5:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any ideas ???

               

              Jim in those small inside curved corners, a set of curved riffler files of varios shapes might be helful, both as files and as curved sandind stick forms with coarse (80 grit) silicon carbide wet/dry paper wrapped arond the. Business end of a crved riffler file- slow going, but the won't dig in as easily as any straight tool on those inside curves.
              Chris B.


              From: "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...>
              Sender: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:19:54 -0400
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Any ideas ???

               

              JIM, ...AND YOU WILL NOT NEED THE BODY FILLER IN MOST APPLICATIONS.... Sorry I forgot to mention that.
              Don Staton in VA
              =================================================================

              On 9/16/2010 3:32 PM, Donald R. Staton wrote:

               

              Use cold chisels of varying widths.  The blades must be extremely sharp and can be reground to resemble a wood chisel with only one sloping surface rather than "V" shaped.  The chisel can be used with hand pressure to remove most grainy defects.  Use light hammer taps with the chisel when hand pressure is not enough.  I have never seen the loco you have but I have used this method in several instances with imperfect castings where they had sand grain like defects on the surfaces.  With a little practice you can get very smooth results with the cold chisels.  You can even grind a small chisel to a very narrow width for tight places.  I have used cold chisels in this manner to remove cast brass rivet heads when making alterations or to get a welded body instead of a riveted body, especially on tenders and rebuilt passenger cars.

              Another method you could use is to use a good auto primer and apply several thicknesses, sanding the large areas between applications, until you get a more suitable smooth finish.  This is the method used by auto painters when filler is used on creases and dents.  Prepare the body, add the filler, sand it, apply a heavy coat of primer, sand it...  and repeat the application and sanding process until you are satisfied with the smoothness.  I recommend the primer method since the castings are not highly detailed and no rivets.  Both methods work well if you take your time and exercise care and patience.
              Happy railroading...
              Don Staton in VA
              ===========================================================================
              On 9/16/2010 1:33 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               
               
                   I am in the process of cleaning up parts from what I believed to be the original castings for a pre war Conover 2-10-2 ( although now I'm not totally sure they are original and I actually have a "radical" idea about these )  Just some statements in a 1939 Conover catalog Ray FW had previously shared with me where it keeps talking about "machined parts already cleaned and "very easy to clean parts". Having pre war items like the Knapp Mountain I know this type of casting can be smooth. Yet others who have them or had built them have said how hard it is to clean up the parts and also to assemble the engine / tender and I know others have mentioned a possible re-issue or copy already assembled being made around 1950. Still searching for those answers.
               
                     The kit I have, minus any paperwork or box, are exactly the same parts as the catalog and others I have seen and are a sand casting . The surface seems to be slightly pitted. I cleaned up casting marks and areas where the parts were attached to the "sprues" but I am left with these pitted areas to smooth . While not very deep it will still need to be filed, sanded or what ever to finish them.  It will be near impossible to clean / smooth certain areas with details on inside corners. I am searching for any ideas on how to do this.
               
                I am wondering about a rock or gem polishing type system as I don't believe a sand blast type of process will help. Any thoughts ?
               
                                                                      Jim H


                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15106 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Pre-war H0 to trade
              Hi Andrew,
               
              These may or may not be two listings you may be interested in. They might be 00 scale as well.
               
               
               
              Sean
               
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Andrew Emmerson <andrew.emmerson4@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 5:58:42 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pre-war H0 to trade

               

              Greetings all!
               
              I have rejoined this group after a break of a few years. I'm looking to trade some of my pre-war H0 models and maybe something I have might interest someone reading this e-mail.
               
              I have an MDC Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher and tender, which I believe is from their fairly early production. It's not perfect but not bad and definitely restorable (or ideal as a source of spares). Also some wooden freight cars from the 1930s, some kit built (e.g. Red Ball) and some nicely scratch built with the date they were made painted underneath. There's a Borden streamlined milk tank for instance. I also have some wartime Megow Hobbycraft cardboard H0 lineside structure kits, boxed and unmade.
               
              What I'm looking for is anything made in Britain in H0 scale of the same 1928-1940 period, either scratch built or professionally made by firms like Reidpath and Bonds. There's not a lot of it around, I know, but we can dream!
               
              Feel free to e-mail me on or off-list.
               
              Best wishes,
              Andy Emmerson.

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15107 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 9/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Pre-war H0 to trade
              Thanks Glenn,
               
              That's useful information.
               
              On my model the cab is made of five pieces of stamped brass. Most of the rest of the loco is castings. The vendor assured me it was made in about 1940.
               
              All the best,
              Andy.

              Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:11 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Pre-war H0 to trade

               

              One gauge of how old it is--I have a 1948 kit for the 0-6-0--the cab is at least five pieces.  Newer ones are one piece.  gj

              Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 2:58 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pre-war H0 to trade

              Greetings all!
               
              I have rejoined this group after a break of a few years. I'm looking to trade some of my pre-war H0 models and maybe something I have might interest someone reading this e-mail.
               
              I have an MDC Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher and tender, which I believe is from their fairly early production. It's not perfect but not bad and definitely restorable (or ideal as a source of spares). Also some wooden freight cars from the 1930s, some kit built (e.g. Red Ball) and some nicely scratch built with the date they were made painted underneath. There's a Borden streamlined milk tank for instance. I also have some wartime Megow Hobbycraft cardboard H0 lineside structure kits, boxed and unmade.
               
              What I'm looking for is anything made in Britain in H0 scale of the same 1928-1940 period, either scratch built or professionally made by firms like Reidpath and Bonds. There's not a lot of it around, I know, but we can dream!
               
              Feel free to e-mail me on or off-list.
               
              Best wishes,
              Andy Emmerson.

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15108 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 9/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Pre-war H0 to trade
              Thanks for the kind thought, Sean.
               
              Yes, these are 00 (4mm scale). I'm sure they will put a smile on someone's face.
               
              All the best,
              Andy.

              Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 1:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Pre-war H0 to trade

               

              Hi Andrew,
               
              These may or may not be two listings you may be interested in. They might be 00 scale as well.
               
               
               
              Sean
               
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Andrew Emmerson <andrew.emmerson4@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 5:58:42 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Pre-war H0 to trade

               

              Greetings all!
               
              I have rejoined this group after a break of a few years. I'm looking to trade some of my pre-war H0 models and maybe something I have might interest someone reading this e-mail.
               
              I have an MDC Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher and tender, which I believe is from their fairly early production. It's not perfect but not bad and definitely restorable (or ideal as a source of spares). Also some wooden freight cars from the 1930s, some kit built (e.g. Red Ball) and some nicely scratch built with the date they were made painted underneath. There's a Borden streamlined milk tank for instance. I also have some wartime Megow Hobbycraft cardboard H0 lineside structure kits, boxed and unmade.
               
              What I'm looking for is anything made in Britain in H0 scale of the same 1928-1940 period, either scratch built or professionally made by firms like Reidpath and Bonds. There's not a lot of it around, I know, but we can dream!
               
              Feel free to e-mail me on or off-list.
               
              Best wishes,
              Andy Emmerson.

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15109 From: Brent Date: 9/18/2010
              Subject: Con Cor SW7
              Would anbody have the simple instruction sheet for the above loco?

              Could you send me a copy via email please ?

              Many Thanks

              Brent
              England
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15110 From: RalphB Date: 9/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Con Cor SW7
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Brent wrote:
              >
              > Would anbody have the simple instruction sheet for the above loco?
              >
              -----------------------
              Brent,

              I'll have to figure out which box it's in, but I do have a Con-Cor SW-7 (which is actually an NW-2). I also have a scanner so I can put into an electronic file that I can e-mail it to you. Give me a day or two and I'll see what I come up with.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15111 From: toytrain13 Date: 9/18/2010
              Subject: Unknown passenger cars on EBay
              There are a number of rather nice PRR streamlined cars currently on EBay. I thought at first that they were American Beauty, but they definitely are NOT! Here's the Bay number for one, which has intrigueing portholes on the sides- 110587659171. Can someone identify these, please? -Richard White
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15112 From: Don Dellmann Date: 9/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Con Cor SW7
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 9:46 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Con Cor SW7


              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Brent wrote:
              >>
              >> Would anbody have the simple instruction sheet for the above loco?
              >>
              > -----------------------
              > Brent,
              >
              > I'll have to figure out which box it's in, but I do have a Con-Cor SW-7
              > (which is actually an NW-2). I also have a scanner so I can put into an
              > electronic file that I can e-mail it to you. Give me a day or two and
              > I'll see what I come up with.
              >
              > Ralph B

              As I recall it was nothing more than a Revell (NW-2) shell on an Athearn
              drive.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15113 From: jim heckard Date: 9/19/2010
              Subject: something wrong
               

               
               
                        I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item #    230528003580  HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car.  It already had 1 bid listed and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P stands for Fifty Years Of Progress  to celebrate AF.
                
                 I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
               
                 Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
               
                                                                              Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15114 From: George Frey Date: 9/19/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
               

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group                                                  

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong

               

               

               
               
                        I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item #    230528003580  HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car.  It already had 1 bid listed and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P stands for Fifty Years Of Progress  to celebrate AF.
                
                 I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
               
                 Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
               
                                                                              Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15115 From: jim heckard Date: 9/19/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              
              George F,
               
                  I didn't bid since there was already one bid on the item which from my understanding does not allow seller to pull bid even if listed wrong. I'm sure seller was offered more money to pull the item early then what is shown as the winning bid which is baloney. I won't complain to eBay because I want to be 100% sure of what I originally read.
               
                                                            Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong

               

              jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
               

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group                                                  

               




              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong

               

               

               
               
                        I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item #    230528003580  HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car.  It already had 1 bid listed and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P stands for Fifty Years Of Progress  to celebrate AF.
                
                 I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
               
                 Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
               
                                                                              Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15116 From: Riverboy Date: 9/19/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              Hi Jim,
               
              I've been a buyer  and seller ( ohioboys2000 ) on eBay for ten years. To my understanding, the only time you can't retract bids end an auction is when there is less than 12 hours left to go. Other than that,  the seller can end it early for numerous reasons.
               
              I hope this helps.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Sun, 9/19/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 6:18 PM

               
              
              George F,
               
                  I didn't bid since there was already one bid on the item which from my understanding does not allow seller to pull bid even if listed wrong. I'm sure seller was offered more money to pull the item early then what is shown as the winning bid which is baloney. I won't complain to eBay because I want to be 100% sure of what I originally read.
               
                                                            Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong

               
              jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
               
              George Frey
              Proud member of
              1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group                                                  
               



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong

               
               

               
               
                        I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item #    230528003580  HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car.  It already had 1 bid listed and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P stands for Fifty Years Of Progress  to celebrate AF.
                
                 I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
               
                 Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
               
                                                                              Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15117 From: jim heckard Date: 9/19/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              
              Tod,
               
                   Thanks. I just learned this rule myself about 10 minutes ago.
               
                                                                                    Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Riverboy
              Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:39 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong

               

              Hi Jim,
               
              I've been a buyer  and seller ( ohioboys2000 ) on eBay for ten years. To my understanding, the only time you can't retract bids end an auction is when there is less than 12 hours left to go. Other than that,  the seller can end it early for numerous reasons.
               
              I hope this helps.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Sun, 9/19/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 6:18 PM

               
              
              George F,
               
                  I didn't bid since there was already one bid on the item which from my understanding does not allow seller to pull bid even if listed wrong. I'm sure seller was offered more money to pull the item early then what is shown as the winning bid which is baloney. I won't complain to eBay because I want to be 100% sure of what I originally read.
               
                                                            Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong

               
              jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
               
              George Frey
              Proud member of
              1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group                                                  
               



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong

               
               

               
               
                        I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item #    230528003580  HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car.  It already had 1 bid listed and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P stands for Fifty Years Of Progress  to celebrate AF.
                
                 I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
               
                 Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
               
                                                                              Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15118 From: jim heckard Date: 9/20/2010
              Subject: New Project
               
               

                      This is the pre war Conover 2-10-2  from 1938 that I am starting to work on. While it might not look like much yet there has been a lot of work done just starting to get the various pieces cleaned up to use.  This project will take a while cleaning up the edges where the parts had been attached to the "tree",  getting a smooth surface on the parts ( I think I found the way to do that ) plus filing edges and fitting parts together. That all has to be done before I start drilling holes and tapping some of them. I expect months with lots of hours just to get that far.
               
                 I have started mostly on the tender body and will be cleaning / filing the other parts that go with the body. Mean while trying to find or create a few missing parts. Thanks to Sean N I have the Mantua large 6 volt motor that was used to power this engine.  I might have to substitute some main and side rods along with the valve gear but I have time to look for original stuff. While I have the drivers I will need lead and trailing truck wheel sets also. They won't be easy to find.
               
                  No hurry. Not going anywhere.
               
                                                                            Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15119 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/20/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              Hi Jim,

              Fortunately this sort of thing does not happen too often, but I have had it happen to me years ago and now usually "mark" anything I'm interested in with a minimal early bid of my own, particularly if it is with a seller I have had no experience with. Still no guarantee that it will not be pulled, but the seller might have some additional explaining to do.

              The strangest situation I have had is when a seller listed the same item I was biding on a second time before the first listing closed and then tried to cancel the first sale I won fairly, due to non payment, which I had sent. I did finally persuade him to complete the sale without a strike against me and void the second sale before it closed and received the item. To this day, do not know if the clearly unhappy man was either dishonest, simply confused or following his mate's orders, the latter of which I suspect may have been the case!

              Jay



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Tod,
              >
              > Thanks. I just learned this rule myself about 10 minutes ago.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Riverboy
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:39 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Jim,
              >
              > I've been a buyer and seller ( ohioboys2000 ) on eBay for ten years. To my understanding, the only time you can't retract bids end an auction is when there is less than 12 hours left to go. Other than that, the seller can end it early for numerous reasons.
              >
              > I hope this helps.
              >
              > Tod
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- On Sun, 9/19/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
              >
              >
              >
              > 
              > George F,
              >
              > I didn't bid since there was already one bid on the item which from my understanding does not allow seller to pull bid even if listed wrong. I'm sure seller was offered more money to pull the item early then what is shown as the winning bid which is baloney. I won't complain to eBay because I want to be 100% sure of what I originally read.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: George Frey
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:46 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              >
              >
              >
              > jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
              >
              > George Frey
              > Proud member of
              > 1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item # 230528003580 HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car. It already had 1 bid listed and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P stands for Fifty Years Of Progress to celebrate AF.
              >
              > I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              > It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
              >
              > Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15120 From: Gary Woodard Date: 9/20/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              Hi Jay,
               
              I had something similar happen to me a few years ago on ebay, I was bidding on an All Nation boxcar, I held that bid on it till the last minute, then suddenly while I was refreshing the page to see if anyone else was bidding on it, the auction was ended suddenly by the  seller due to the picture not showing up, the picture was showing up just fine,he just wasn't going to sell that boxcar for $10 was his problem, he relisted it the next day.
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:10:07 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong

               

              Hi Jim,

              Fortunately this sort of thing does not happen too often, but I have had it happen to me years ago and now usually "mark" anything I'm interested in with a minimal early bid of my own, particularly if it is with a seller I have had no experience with. Still no guarantee that it will not be pulled, but the seller might have some additional explaining to do.

              The strangest situation I have had is when a seller listed the same item I was biding on a second time before the first listing closed and then tried to cancel the first sale I won fairly, due to non payment, which I had sent. I did finally persuade him to complete the sale without a strike against me and void the second sale before it closed and received the item. To this day, do not know if the clearly unhappy man was either dishonest, simply confused or following his mate's orders, the latter of which I suspect may have been the case!

              Jay

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:

              >
              > Tod,
              >
              > Thanks. I just learned this rule myself about 10 minutes ago.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Riverboy
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:39 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Jim,
              >
              > I've been a buyer and seller ( ohioboys2000 ) on eBay for ten years. To my understanding, the only time you can't retract bids end an auction is when there is less than 12 hours left to go. Other than that, the seller can end it early for numerous reasons.
              >
              > I
              hope this helps.
              >
              > Tod
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- On Sun, 9/19/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
              >
              >
              >
              > 
              > George F,
              >
              > I didn't bid since there was already one bid on the item which from my understanding does not allow seller to pull bid even if listed wrong. I'm sure seller was offered more money to pull the item early then what is shown as the winning bid which is baloney. I won't complain to eBay because I want to be 100% sure of what I originally read.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              >
              From: George Frey
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:46 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              >
              >
              >
              > jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
              >
              > George Frey
              > Proud member of
              > 1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sun, September
              19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item # 230528003580 HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car. It already had 1 bid listed and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P stands for Fifty Years Of Progress to celebrate AF.
              >
              > I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              > It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a
              little hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
              >
              > Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
              >
              > Jim H
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15121 From: 69_Mustang_Man Date: 9/22/2010
              Subject: 1 Geared Wheel Set for a Rivarossi GG1 Needed
              Hi All,

              I was wondering if anyone has one geared wheel set for a newer Rivarossi GG1.

              I am willing to pay as long as it is reasonable. I have a GG1 with one broken wheel/driver.
              Thanks,
              Sean
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15122 From: Nelson Date: 9/22/2010
              Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set for a Rivarossi GG1 Needed
              Sean, I have both geared and dummy wheels. Do you know which set you need? The are two different part #'s for the geared sets, because the teeth are pitched in different directions based on where they are in the gear train.

              It's also possible to replace it with good wheel from a dummy set, something I've done in the past.

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "69_Mustang_Man" <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi All,
              >
              > I was wondering if anyone has one geared wheel set for a newer Rivarossi GG1.
              >
              > I am willing to pay as long as it is reasonable. I have a GG1 with one broken wheel/driver.
              > Thanks,
              > Sean
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15123 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/22/2010
              Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set for a Rivarossi GG1 Needed
              Thanks Nelson, 

              Yes, I have a wheel pulled and a gauge. If you have an extra set I would appreciate it. Let me know how much andwgere to send it.

              Thanks,

              Sean

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Sep 22, 2010, at 6:37 PM, "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:

               

              Sean, I have both geared and dummy wheels. Do you know which set you need? The are two different part #'s for the geared sets, because the teeth are pitched in different directions based on where they are in the gear train.

              It's also possible to replace it with good wheel from a dummy set, something I've done in the past.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "69_Mustang_Man" <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi All,
              >
              > I was wondering if anyone has one geared wheel set for a newer Rivarossi GG1.
              >
              > I am willing to pay as long as it is reasonable. I have a GG1 with one broken wheel/driver.
              > Thanks,
              > Sean
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15124 From: Nelson Date: 9/22/2010
              Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set for a Rivarossi GG1 Needed
              Check your email, Sean.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Nelson,
              >
              > Yes, I have a wheel pulled and a gauge. If you have an extra set I would appreciate it. Let me know how much andwgere to send it.
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Sean
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15125 From: krh54 Date: 9/22/2010
              Subject: Diecast Athearn Crane instructions Needed
              Hi guys. I need to re rig the Boom and jib and whip on a diecast crane. The plastic one uses a simplified version and is not needed. I'd like all pages scanned please. Thanks, Ken

              Send to
              krh54@...
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15126 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 9/22/2010
              Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
              On 9/23/2010 12:37 AM, Nelson wrote:
               

              Sean, I have both geared and dummy wheels. Do you know which set you need? The are two different part #'s for the geared sets, because the teeth are pitched in different directions based on where they are in the gear train.

              Hi Nelson,

              only now noticed your email address "Greenbriar614...." is this related to the Greenbriar (Corvair) Van of the early sixties?? there was a version with 164 CID engine - numbers that also show up in your address.. ... too much coincidence not to ask.

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15127 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 9/23/2010
              Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
              That most likely refers to Chesapeake and Ohio, 4-8-4, Greenbriar, #614 that was re-built and run on many fan trips pulling the C&O Safety Express... plus a winter month test to learn it's efficiency on freight operations to help in the design of a new steam locomotive by the High Iron Company and Ross Rowland.

              Don Staton in VA...  C&O Fan.
              ==================================================================================================



              On 9/23/2010 2:29 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
               

              On 9/23/2010 12:37 AM, Nelson wrote:

               

              Sean, I have both geared and dummy wheels. Do you know which set you need? The are two different part #'s for the geared sets, because the teeth are pitched in different directions based on where they are in the gear train.

              Hi Nelson,

              only now noticed your email address "Greenbriar614...." is this related to the Greenbriar (Corvair) Van of the early sixties?? there was a version with 164 CID engine - numbers that also show up in your address.. ... too much coincidence not to ask.

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15128 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/23/2010
              Subject: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project


              Notes on CONOVER and CONOVER - LACONIA ads:

              Hi Jim H., and All

              A find of eight complete years (except for two issues) of early small-format Model Railroader magazines this summer, dating from 1937, 1939 and 1942-1947, has let me explore and understand those early days of our hobby and of Walther's HO, Red Ball, Mantua, Varney, etc.  as well of the other smaller firms. 

              Additionally, the postwar issues have filled in gaps in my knowledge of the immediate postwar years with the development of Dallas/DMC and others, including apparently stillborn HO steam locomotive projects of Red Ball, Auel and other possible phantoms such as Denise's GN Y-1 electric (only a prototype photo in their ads).  I spent much of my off-line railroading time late this past month pouring over all of the issues at least two or three times, post note tabbing advertising and other items of interest for quick reference. 

              With Jim H.'s current Conover 2-10-2 project under way, I looked the last two nights to see what Conover ads appeared.  There are no indexes to advertisers in some of these early years, so a quick, sometimes fallible read must be made of each page and ad.

              The first of two ads I found, appears on page 474 of the December 1937 issue.  A two inch, one column block ad by "Conover Miniature Railroads of 23 Croton Avenue, Tarrytown, N.Y." was headed by the following complete text as written, "HO LOCOMOTIVES, 0-4-0  4-4-0,  Machined Kits with all jig drilled parts low priced.  Other locomotive parts and supplies in stock. Our latest price list with over one-hundred fifty items sent upon receipt of a 3c stamp."  End of text.   At the lower left is a cut of an ink drawing of the front of a speeding PRR locomotive, road number 5411.  

              No mention is made of the B&O 2-10-2.  The 0-4-0 was likely the cab-less mine locomotive picture in RMC Collector Consist about a decade ago.

              Since I do not yet have the 1938 issues, the first mention of Conover in 1939 was contained in a full page Laconia  ad on page 471 of the September, 1939 MR (as well as an additional half page on Lockhart,).  The top quarter of the page is introductory in nature, and begins with the following text. 

              "Introducing a new HO gauge line by Laconia Industries, Inc. - A new company with a seasoned personnel - A new line, designed by a car builder - A new process, all metal embossed cars - A new thrill for any model railroader."  The ad continues with this paragraph, "Allow us to make you acquainted with Mr. F. Edwin Maloon, for twenty years, Chief Designer of the Laconia car Company.  With a background of actual experience in building railroad cars, Mr. Maloon has now turned his talents upwards the production of authentic models." 

              The center half of the page contains two prototype boxcar photos and a list of the New Laconia line (which I will write more about in the next few days).  The last quarter of the page is devoted to the former Conover locomotive line.  It begins, "FOR MOTIVE POWER PLUS - Conover-Laconia Presents" followed by a very small  prototype illustration of the B&O 2-10-2 with the text at right, "B&O 2-10-2, complete kit, 2- or 3- rail $39.50 Also in four section kits."  The text at left of the photo states, " American Type, 4-4-0, complete kit, 2- or 3- rail, $29.50, Also in three section kits."  Below the photo is word of another new steam engine kit:

              "Coming - October Fifteenth, Conover-Laconia 0-6-0 Switcher.  Complete kit 2- or 3- rail, $15.00"  The ad concluded with their name and address: "Laconia Industries, Inc., Laconia, N.H."  Although I am far from being an expert on this line, that is the first I've read about the proposed 0-6-0 to sell at a low $15.00, which would price it at Varney Docksider and Mantua Goat territory.

              The Conover-Laconial locomotive kits were not mentioned again for the rest of 1939, but the December issue of MR, page 665 contains a quarter page block ad from Laconia, headed with, "AN APOLOGY and an explanation" of their failure to be able to fill orders in a timely manner, not an unusual situation for a new manufacture, likely compounded war clouds building. 

              As I do not have 1938, 1940 and 1941 issues of MR, will look for later references in 1942 and later years.  If anyone else has 1938 and 1940-41, thee might be something else of interest there that would tell more of the Conover and their 2-10-2 story.  I do recall a post war letter to the editor from the individual who later porchased the Conover molds and sold a few parts sets.

              Tomorrow I will continue with information on the Lockhart line which Laconia assumed, including fiding some Lockhart freight car information which some of us speculated about a few months ago!

              W. Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >>
              >
              > This is the pre war Conover 2-10-2 from 1938 that I am starting to work on. While it might not look like much yet there has been a lot of work done just starting to get the various pieces cleaned up to use. This project will take a while cleaning up the edges where the parts had been attached to the "tree", getting a smooth surface on the parts ( I think I found the way to do that ) plus filing edges and fitting parts together. That all has to be done before I start drilling holes and tapping some of them. I expect months with lots of hours just to get that far.
              >
              > I have started mostly on the tender body and will be cleaning / filing the other parts that go with the body. Mean while trying to find or create a few missing parts. Thanks to Sean N I have the Mantua large 6 volt motor that was used to power this engine. I might have to substitute some main and side rods along with the valve gear but I have time to look for original stuff. While I have the drivers I will need lead and trailing truck wheel sets also. They won't be easy to find.
              >
              > No hurry. Not going anywhere.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15129 From: the_plainsman Date: 9/23/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              Hi Gary W., One would have thought he would have waited a while before relisting it. I guess the saying, "No honor among theives" would apply with that one, LOL! W. Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Jay,
              >
              > I had something similar happen to me a few years ago on ebay, I was bidding on
              > an All Nation boxcar, I held that bid on it till the last minute, then suddenly
              > while I was refreshing the page to see if anyone else was bidding on it, the
              > auction was ended suddenly by the  seller due to the picture not showing up, the
              > picture was showing up just fine,he just wasn't going to sell that boxcar for
              > $10 was his problem, he relisted it the next day.
              >
              > Gary W
              >
              >
              >  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to
              > answer life's two most important questions!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:10:07 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong
              >
              >  
              > Hi Jim,
              >
              > Fortunately this sort of thing does not happen too often, but I have had it
              > happen to me years ago and now usually "mark" anything I'm interested in with a
              > minimal early bid of my own, particularly if it is with a seller I have had no
              > experience with. Still no guarantee that it will not be pulled, but the seller
              > might have some additional explaining to do.
              >
              >
              > The strangest situation I have had is when a seller listed the same item I was
              > biding on a second time before the first listing closed and then tried to cancel
              > the first sale I won fairly, due to non payment, which I had sent. I did finally
              > persuade him to complete the sale without a strike against me and void the
              > second sale before it closed and received the item. To this day, do not know if
              > the clearly unhappy man was either dishonest, simply confused or following his
              > mate's orders, the latter of which I suspect may have been the case!
              >
              >
              > Jay
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Tod,
              > >
              > > Thanks. I just learned this rule myself about 10 minutes ago.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Riverboy
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:39 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jim,
              > >
              > > I've been a buyer and seller ( ohioboys2000 ) on eBay for ten years. To my
              > >understanding, the only time you can't retract bids end an auction is when there
              > >is less than 12 hours left to go. Other than that, the seller can end it early
              > >for numerous reasons.
              > >
              > > I hope this helps.
              > >
              > > Tod
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- On Sun, 9/19/10, jim heckard <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@>
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > > George F,
              > >
              > > I didn't bid since there was already one bid on the item which from my
              > >understanding does not allow seller to pull bid even if listed wrong. I'm sure
              > >seller was offered more money to pull the item early then what is shown as the
              > >winning bid which is baloney. I won't complain to eBay because I want to be 100%
              > >sure of what I originally read.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: George Frey
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:46 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do
              > >either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the
              > >seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
              > >
              > > George Frey
              > > Proud member of
              > > 1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@>
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something
              > >wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to
              > >especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item
              > ># 230528003580 HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car. It already had 1 bid listed
              > >and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a
              > >bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid
              > >at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P
              > >stands for Fifty Years Of Progress to celebrate AF.
              > >
              > > I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise
              > >that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              > > It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little
              > >hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
              > >
              > > Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else
              > >seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
              > >
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15130 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 9/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
              I think I can help you folk here.
               
              The 1938 Conover catalogue has only two locos, the "H-O Mine or gasoline switcher" and the "H-O 4-4-0 American type locomotive. Tender drive. Wealth of detail."
               
              The 1939 (Fourth Edition) catalogue lists these two locos again and also devotes four pages plus a 4-page insert to the B&O 2-10-2 Type Locomotive, "A heavy duty freight locomotive, Santa Fe type, suitable for heavy freight hauls. The construction is Conover type throughout and gives you two or three rail distribution at the same price.". There are two (small) photos of the loco and several drawings of the piece parts.  It says "We feel our castings are the finest available. They are cast in French sand and acid dipped to a gold finish. They require very little cleaning up."
               
              I can scan the pages if anyone wants them. In addition I have a goodly collection of pre-war American catalogues for H0 and 00, and may be able to help other people with their research.
               
              Regards,
              Andy Emmerson.

              Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:13 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project

               


              Notes on CONOVER and CONOVER - LACONIA ads:

              Hi Jim H., and All

              A find of eight complete years (except for two issues) of early small-format Model Railroader magazines this summer, dating from 1937, 1939 and 1942-1947, has let me explore and understand those early days of our hobby and of Walther's HO, Red Ball, Mantua, Varney, etc.  as well of the other smaller firms. 

              Additionally, the postwar issues have filled in gaps in my knowledge of the immediate postwar years with the development of Dallas/DMC and others, including apparently stillborn HO steam locomotive projects of Red Ball, Auel and other possible phantoms such as Denise's GN Y-1 electric (only a prototype photo in their ads).  I spent much of my off-line railroading time late this past month pouring over all of the issues at least two or three times, post note tabbing advertising and other items of interest for quick reference. 

              With Jim H.'s current Conover 2-10-2 project under way, I looked the last two nights to see what Conover ads appeared.  There are no indexes to advertisers in some of these early years, so a quick, sometimes fallible read must be made of each page and ad.

              The first of two ads I found, appears on page 474 of the December 1937 issue.  A two inch, one column block ad by "Conover Miniature Railroads of 23 Croton Avenue, Tarrytown, N.Y." was headed by the following complete text as written, "HO LOCOMOTIVES, 0-4-0  4-4-0,  Machined Kits with all jig drilled parts low priced.  Other locomotive parts and supplies in stock. Our latest price list with over one-hundred fifty items sent upon receipt of a 3c stamp."  End of text.   At the lower left is a cut of an ink drawing of the front of a speeding PRR locomotive, road number 5411.  

              No mention is made of the B&O 2-10-2.  The 0-4-0 was likely the cab-less mine locomotive picture in RMC Collector Consist about a decade ago.

              Since I do not yet have the 1938 issues, the first mention of Conover in 1939 was contained in a full page Laconia  ad on page 471 of the September, 1939 MR (as well as an additional half page on Lockhart,).  The top quarter of the page is introductory in nature, and begins with the following text. 

              "Introducing a new HO gauge line by Laconia Industries, Inc. - A new company with a seasoned personnel - A new line, designed by a car builder - A new process, all metal embossed cars - A new thrill for any model railroader."  The ad continues with this paragraph, "Allow us to make you acquainted with Mr. F. Edwin Maloon, for twenty years, Chief Designer of the Laconia car Company.  With a background of actual experience in building railroad cars, Mr. Maloon has now turned his talents upwards the production of authentic models." 

              The center half of the page contains two prototype boxcar photos and a list of the New Laconia line (which I will write more about in the next few days).  The last quarter of the page is devoted to the former Conover locomotive line.  It begins, "FOR MOTIVE POWER PLUS - Conover-Laconia Presents" followed by a very small  prototype illustration of the B&O 2-10-2 with the text at right, "B&O 2-10-2, complete kit, 2- or 3- rail $39.50 Also in four section kits."  The text at left of the photo states, " American Type, 4-4-0, complete kit, 2- or 3- rail, $29.50, Also in three section kits."  Below the photo is word of another new steam engine kit:

              "Coming - October Fifteenth, Conover-Laconia 0-6-0 Switcher.  Complete kit 2- or 3- rail, $15.00"  The ad concluded with their name and address: "Laconia Industries, Inc., Laconia, N.H."  Although I am far from being an expert on this line, that is the first I've read about the proposed 0-6-0 to sell at a low $15.00, which would price it at Varney Docksider and Mantua Goat territory.

              The Conover-Laconial locomotive kits were not mentioned again for the rest of 1939, but the December issue of MR, page 665 contains a quarter page block ad from Laconia, headed with, "AN APOLOGY and an explanation" of their failure to be able to fill orders in a timely manner, not an unusual situation for a new manufacture, likely compounded war clouds building. 

              As I do not have 1938, 1940 and 1941 issues of MR, will look for later references in 1942 and later years.  If anyone else has 1938 and 1940-41, thee might be something else of interest there that would tell more of the Conover and their 2-10-2 story.  I do recall a post war letter to the editor from the individual who later porchased the Conover molds and sold a few parts sets.

              Tomorrow I will continue with information on the Lockhart line which Laconia assumed, including fiding some Lockhart freight car information which some of us speculated about a few months ago!

              W. Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:

              >>
              >
              > This is the pre war Conover 2-10-2 from
              1938 that I am starting to work on. While it might not look like much yet there has been a lot of work done just starting to get the various pieces cleaned up to use. This project will take a while cleaning up the edges where the parts had been attached to the "tree", getting a smooth surface on the parts ( I think I found the way to do that ) plus filing edges and fitting parts together. That all has to be done before I start drilling holes and tapping some of them. I expect months with lots of hours just to get that far.
              >
              > I have
              started mostly on the tender body and will be cleaning / filing the other parts that go with the body. Mean while trying to find or create a few missing parts. Thanks to Sean N I have the Mantua large 6 volt motor that was used to power this engine. I might have to substitute some main and side rods along with the valve gear but I have time to look for original stuff. While I have the drivers I will need lead and trailing truck wheel sets also. They won't be easy to find.
              >
              > No hurry. Not going anywhere.
              >
              > Jim
              H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15131 From: Gary Woodard Date: 9/23/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              Hi W Jay W,
               
              You got that right, I watched for the following week, he did get more out of it, but he should have honered the sale the way it was originally, didn't understand enough about ebay at the time to know I could have complained.
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 12:17:39 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong

               

              Hi Gary W., One would have thought he would have waited a while before relisting it. I guess the saying, "No honor among theives" would apply with that one, LOL! W. Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Jay,
              >
              > I had something similar happen to me a few years ago on ebay, I was bidding on
              > an All Nation boxcar, I held that bid on it till the last minute, then suddenly
              > while I was refreshing the page to see if anyone else was bidding on it, the
              > auction was ended suddenly by the  seller due to the picture not showing up, the
              > picture was showing up just fine,he just wasn't going to sell that boxcar for
              > $10 was his problem, he relisted it the next day.
              >
              > Gary W
              >
              >
              >  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to
              > answer life's two most important questions!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:10:07 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong
              >
              >  
              > Hi Jim,
              >
              > Fortunately this sort of thing does not happen too often, but I have had it
              > happen to me years ago and now usually "mark" anything I'm interested in with a
              > minimal early bid of my own, particularly if it is with a seller I have had no
              > experience with. Still no guarantee that it will not be pulled, but the seller
              > might have some additional explaining to do.
              >
              >
              > The strangest situation I have had is when a seller listed the same item I was
              > biding on a second time before the first listing closed and then tried to cancel
              > the first sale I won fairly, due to non payment, which I had sent. I did finally
              > persuade him to complete the sale without a strike against me and void the
              > second sale before it closed and received the item. To this day, do not know if
              > the clearly unhappy man was either dishonest, simply confused or following his
              > mate's orders, the latter of which I suspect may have been the case!
              >
              >
              > Jay
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Tod,
              > >
              > > Thanks. I just learned this rule myself about 10 minutes ago.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Riverboy
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:39 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jim,
              > >
              > > I've been a buyer and seller ( ohioboys2000 ) on eBay for ten years. To my
              > >understanding, the only time you can't retract bids end an auction is when there
              > >is less than 12 hours left to go. Other than that, the seller can end it early
              > >for numerous reasons.
              > >
              > > I hope this helps.
              > >
              > > Tod
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- On Sun, 9/19/10, jim heckard <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@>
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > > George F,
              > >
              > > I didn't bid since there was already one bid on the item which from my
              > >understanding does not allow seller to pull bid even if listed wrong. I'm sure
              > >seller was offered more money to pull the item early then what is shown as the
              > >winning bid which is baloney. I won't complain to eBay because I want to be 100%
              > >sure of what I originally read.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: George Frey
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:46 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do
              > >either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the
              > >seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
              > >
              > > George Frey
              > > Proud member of
              > > 1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@>
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something
              > >wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to
              > >especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item
              > ># 230528003580 HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car. It already had 1 bid listed
              > >and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a
              > >bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid
              > >at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P
              > >stands for Fifty Years Of Progress to celebrate AF.
              > >
              > > I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise
              > >that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              > > It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little
              > >hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
              > >
              > > Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else
              > >seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
              > >
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15132 From: jim heckard Date: 9/23/2010
              Subject: Conover items
              Attachments :
               
                 The picture I am sending is from Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon Volume II  page 40 and is a Conover photo of the 4-4-0 they produced and later sold under the Conover /Laconia name. I wish I could find a large photo of the Conover 2-10-2
               
                 I want to thank
               
                  Ray F W      For sending me a copy of a 1939 Conover catalog and also sharing it with HOseeker.
               
                   W Jay W     For the information gleaned from early catalogs about Conover and Conover / Laconia.
               
                  Jeff Barker    For the copies of drawings he sent to our site and allowed to be put in HOseeker of the Conover type 2-10-2 .
               
                   Andrew E     For your latest contributions taken from 1938 -1939 Conover catalogs. Hopefully you will contact Larry Stevenson / www.hoseeker.net and allow him to use the Conover information and catalogs plus any other early / prewar catalogs you have that could be shared by all.
               
                    Because of all this information a little clearer picture concerning Conover is being assembled. Hopefully more can be found about this early pre war company.
               
                                                   Thanks to all,
                                                      Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15133 From: jim heckard Date: 9/23/2010
              Subject: Question about post war Conover owner
               
               
               
              W Jay W,
               
                     In your last post you wrote a sentence  "  I do recall a post war letter to the editor from the individual who later purchased the Conover molds and sold a few parts sets. "
               
                   I already have a name of a person from Massachusetts who supposedly purchased the Conover molds and possibly produced some parts. I hesitate to share the name right now even though this person has died recently. I don't want to put out information that might not be fact. The reason I would like to find out for sure is a small controversy I have about the Conover kit / parts I have. I know they are Conover from the original molds but because of some discrepancies of information they MIGHT be a post war re issue.
               
                  Would appreciate if you could find the name of the person who wrote that letter to the editor.
               
                                                             Jim H
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15134 From: RalphB Date: 9/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Con Cor SW7
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Brent wrote:
              >
              > Would anbody have the simple instruction sheet for the above loco?
              >
              --------------------
              Brent,

              Well, I finally found the right box down in the basement. The instruction sheet basically covers only the body; there's nothing about the mechanism except a simplified view and the notation about the body locating pins. Is this what you want?

              I have the sheet on the scanner now, but there's a problem somewhere - the computer can't see the scanner. I'm no electronics wizard, so it will probably take me a day or two to find and fix.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15135 From: jim heckard Date: 9/23/2010
              Subject: winning bid, new project
               

               
               
                   If you go to eBay item   290476553549      Vintage brass Engine not assembled marked with the letter N    you will see my latest purchase. Usually I have a clue but I honestly don't know what it is or made by who. Yes I know it is a 4-6-4 and the tender looks New York Central but thats it. Any ideas ?
               
                  After I finish or get tired of my Conover 2-10-2 I have this new project that will again mean grinding , filing, sanding, drilling, tapping, etc. As I told someone I'm a glutton for punishment. Hey it could be a long cold winter.
               
                                                                     Jim H
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15136 From: litant@yahoo.com Date: 9/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Diecast Athearn Crane instructions Needed
              Is this diagram from www.hoseeker.net what you're looking for? There's a rigging diagram in the lower left corner of the instruction sheet.

              http://www.hoseeker.net/athearninstructionscars1950/Athearncrane1952.jpg

              Regards,

              Michael Litant

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "krh54" <k4sb@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi guys. I need to re rig the Boom and jib and whip on a diecast crane. The plastic one uses a simplified version and is not needed. I'd like all pages scanned please. Thanks, Ken
              >
              > Send to
              > krh54@...
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15137 From: Larry Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: A Bunch of Varney
              More Varney than I have seen up for bid in a long time has been posted to www.ebid.net with full train sets to individual cars and locomotive kits up for bid and sale. I am not the seller, nor in any way connected but these items should interest a lot of group members.
               
              eBid is a competitor of eBay and does not restrict buyers to PayPal only payments. When you first hit the home page you will need to sellect the county (United States), you can browse without creating an account but to make a bid, purchase or sell you will need to have an account. They have a lot more items than www.mylittleauctions.com does but they are another site worth an occaisonal look.
               
              Larry Miller III
              larmil111

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15138 From: jbark76 Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
              It's actually OO scale. The N stands for Nason and it is a NYC Hudson.
              -Jeff-
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15139 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
              Jeff,
               
                  Thanks for the information. While I have heard of Nason I guess the reason I had no idea what it was is that I was trying to put it in an HO context. When it arrives I'll have to check it and Nason out. Any idea when it might have been made ?
               
                                                                    Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jbark76
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:45 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: winning bid, new project

               


              It's actually OO scale. The N stands for Nason and it is a NYC Hudson.
              -Jeff-

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15140 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
                 Jeff,
               
                        Found a lot of information about Nason 00 in Google that I will have to research. Thanks again for identifying it.
               
                                                                                             Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 8:24 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: winning bid, new project

              Jeff,
               
                  Thanks for the information. While I have heard of Nason I guess the reason I had no idea what it was is that I was trying to put it in an HO context. When it arrives I'll have to check it and Nason out. Any idea when it might have been made ?
               
                                                                    Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jbark76
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:45 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: winning bid, new project

               


              It's actually OO scale. The N stands for Nason and it is a NYC Hudson.
              -Jeff-

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15141 From: erieberk Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
              Hi W. Jay W.,

              Am finding this thread to be of particular interest, as this early manufacturer was one of the major producers of H0 rolling stock, even though not offering the large selection of motive power that some of the other manufacturers made. I've noticed Andrew's contributions to this to be even more informative.

              As for your request/invitation towards the end of your last post basically stating: "Anyone else has . . . something else of interest . . . that would tell more of the Conover and their 2-10-2 story." then, your mention of "Lockhart freight cars information," you might be interested to know that some time ago (with the help of Chuck Higdon making spreadsheets for me), I supplied loads of info to be found in our Files Section. If you're looking for more info on this manufacturer, I suggest you go there to find.

              There are two files I put up on this manufacturer. The first one essentially being a revision of the extremely comprehensive article I wrote for the H0SC&H SIG group back in the late 1980's -- Which will be found in the Files as -- V List Binkley Laconia RevA.doc. This file gives a complete history on Lockhart, Laconia and Binkley (Binkley eventually took over Laconia in the 1950's). There is a complete car listing of all Lockhart, Lockhart-Laconia, Binkley and Binkley kits that they continued as Laconia -- with all Catalog Numbers and most car side numbers.

              You will also find another File listed as -- V List Laconia cars.xls which is a comprehensive listing of all Laconia production car kits, including all their Catalog Numbers and most of their car side numbers as well -- and yes, it includes Conover's 2 steam engines. I did not include the Lockhart-Conover "H-O Mine/Gasoline Switcher" only because my purpose was not to include everything that Conover made -- and they did produce other items, including "Charlen" freight car kits. By this, I'm sure you can see that not only have I referenced the early MR magazines for this manufacturer, as you're suggesting, but I did so some 20 years ago < g >.

              Since most of which you'd need to know (except for some reporting numbers) is already there in the files for your use, your efforts in researching might be better served if you were to look into finding more on the Charlen line of cars that Conover offered, which I did not have the time for when I wrote up the information.

              Adding to what Andrew sent in, there are other little facts and interesting info I'd like to include on Conover, as seen in the same 1939 Fourth Edition Catalog of Conover's that he has. As I believe Andrew has already mentioned, the Conover 2-10-2 could be bought in sections (as well as one complete kit) -- similar to how Varney also offered his loco kits. The First Section was the mechanism (frame, pilot, drivers, rods, etc.) -- for $11.00. The drivers, BTW, had only the second and fourth sets having flanges. Section Two included the Mantua Alnoco motor, crossheads with piston rods, front truck and complete set of Baker valve gear -- for $9.50. Section Three contains the superstructure, describes as "a clean detailed bronze casting for the boiler;" even for the kit, the parts making up the cab were completely assembled. The various detail parts (air pumps, window stampings, boiler front, etc.) were included with this section -- for $9.50. The Section Four had the Vanderbilt tender -- also, at $9.50.

              The 4-4-0 American type engine also came in sections, but it only took three sections to build a complete engine and tender. The H0 Mine/gasoline Switcher wasn't offered in sections -- but all three of these engines were also offered as factory build and painted. The finished B&O 2-10-2 went for $78 -- lettered to your specifications. The finished American-Type 4-4-0 was $48.00, and the finished Mine Engine was priced at $35.00 -- all prices for either two-rail or three-rail.

              Conover offered their own line of paints, and also had a "Professional Lettering" service for freight cars -- at $4.00 ($3.50 w/o herald) and engines -- at $3.00. They produced a well-engineered Water Tank kit at on;y $1.98 (or $2.50 with a separate Standpipe). The Standpipe was sold separately too, at 75 cents. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "the_plainsman" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Notes on CONOVER and CONOVER - LACONIA ads:
              >
              > Hi Jim H., and All
              >
              > A find of eight complete years (except for two issues) of early
              > small-format Model Railroader magazines this summer, dating from 1937,
              > 1939 and 1942-1947, has let me explore and understand those early days
              > of our hobby and of Walther's HO, Red Ball, Mantua, Varney, etc. as
              > well of the other smaller firms.
              >
              > Additionally, the postwar issues have filled in gaps in my knowledge of
              > the immediate postwar years with the development of Dallas/DMC and
              > others, including apparently stillborn HO steam locomotive projects of
              > Red Ball, Auel and other possible phantoms such as Denise's GN Y-1
              > electric (only a prototype photo in their ads). I spent much of my
              > off-line railroading time late this past month pouring over all of the
              > issues at least two or three times, post note tabbing advertising and
              > other items of interest for quick reference.
              >
              > With Jim H.'s current Conover 2-10-2 project under way, I looked the
              > last two nights to see what Conover ads appeared. There are no indexes
              > to advertisers in some of these early years, so a quick, sometimes
              > fallible read must be made of each page and ad.
              >
              > The first of two ads I found, appears on page 474 of the December 1937
              > issue. A two inch, one column block ad by "Conover Miniature Railroads
              > of 23 Croton Avenue, Tarrytown, N.Y." was headed by the following
              > complete text as written, "HO LOCOMOTIVES, 0-4-0 4-4-0, Machined Kits
              > with all jig drilled parts low priced. Other locomotive parts and
              > supplies in stock. Our latest price list with over one-hundred fifty
              > items sent upon receipt of a 3c stamp." End of text. At the lower
              > left is a cut of an ink drawing of the front of a speeding PRR
              > locomotive, road number 5411.
              >
              > No mention is made of the B&O 2-10-2. The 0-4-0 was likely the cab-less
              > mine locomotive picture in RMC Collector Consist about a decade ago.
              >
              > Since I do not yet have the 1938 issues, the first mention of Conover in
              > 1939 was contained in a full page Laconia ad on page 471 of the
              > September, 1939 MR (as well as an additional half page on Lockhart,).
              > The top quarter of the page is introductory in nature, and begins with
              > the following text.
              >
              > "Introducing a new HO gauge line by Laconia Industries, Inc. - A new
              > company with a seasoned personnel - A new line, designed by a car
              > builder - A new process, all metal embossed cars - A new thrill for any
              > model railroader." The ad continues with this paragraph, "Allow us to
              > make you acquainted with Mr. F. Edwin Maloon, for twenty years, Chief
              > Designer of the Laconia car Company. With a background of actual
              > experience in building railroad cars, Mr. Maloon has now turned his
              > talents upwards the production of authentic models."
              >
              >
              > The center half of the page contains two prototype boxcar photos and a
              > list of the New Laconia line (which I will write more about in the next
              > few days). The last quarter of the page is devoted to the former
              > Conover locomotive line. It begins, "FOR MOTIVE POWER PLUS -
              > Conover-Laconia Presents" followed by a very small prototype
              > illustration of the B&O 2-10-2 with the text at right, "B&O 2-10-2,
              > complete kit, 2- or 3- rail $39.50 Also in four section kits." The text
              > at left of the photo states, " American Type, 4-4-0, complete kit, 2- or
              > 3- rail, $29.50, Also in three section kits." Below the photo is word
              > of another new steam engine kit:
              >
              > "Coming - October Fifteenth, Conover-Laconia 0-6-0 Switcher. Complete
              > kit 2- or 3- rail, $15.00" The ad concluded with their name and
              > address: "Laconia Industries, Inc., Laconia, N.H." Although I am far
              > from being an expert on this line, that is the first I've read about the
              > proposed 0-6-0 to sell at a low $15.00, which would price it at Varney
              > Docksider and Mantua Goat territory.
              >
              > The Conover-Laconial locomotive kits were not mentioned again for the
              > rest of 1939, but the December issue of MR, page 665 contains a quarter
              > page block ad from Laconia, headed with, "AN APOLOGY and an explanation"
              > of their failure to be able to fill orders in a timely manner, not an
              > unusual situation for a new manufacture, likely compounded war clouds
              > building.
              >
              > As I do not have 1938, 1940 and 1941 issues of MR, will look for later
              > references in 1942 and later years. If anyone else has 1938 and
              > 1940-41, thee might be something else of interest there that would tell
              > more of the Conover and their 2-10-2 story. I do recall a post war
              > letter to the editor from the individual who later porchased the Conover
              > molds and sold a few parts sets.
              >
              > Tomorrow I will continue with information on the Lockhart line which
              > Laconia assumed, including fiding some Lockhart freight car information
              > which some of us speculated about a few months ago!
              >
              > W. Jay W.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >
              > > This is the pre war Conover 2-10-2 from 1938 that I am starting to
              > work on. While it might not look like much yet there has been a lot of
              > work done just starting to get the various pieces cleaned up to use.
              > This project will take a while cleaning up the edges where the parts had
              > been attached to the "tree", getting a smooth surface on the parts ( I
              > think I found the way to do that ) plus filing edges and fitting parts
              > together. That all has to be done before I start drilling holes and
              > tapping some of them. I expect months with lots of hours just to get
              > that far.
              > >
              > > I have started mostly on the tender body and will be cleaning / filing
              > the other parts that go with the body. Mean while trying to find or
              > create a few missing parts. Thanks to Sean N I have the Mantua large 6
              > volt motor that was used to power this engine. I might have to
              > substitute some main and side rods along with the valve gear but I have
              > time to look for original stuff. While I have the drivers I will need
              > lead and trailing truck wheel sets also. They won't be easy to find.
              > >
              > > No hurry. Not going anywhere.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15142 From: Sean Naylor Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: A Bunch of Varney
              Hi All,
               
              I have checked them out on occasion. The biggest gripe I have is this...
               
              I hear people talking all the time about how bad eBay and eBay sellers are, but...
               
              I would be hard pressed to squeeze $48 out of a Varney Old Lady and would most likely expect ~$36 - $40 on my sale of one.  I have gone to several of these sites, craigslist included and I have yet to see much of anything I have ever been able to consider a deal, let alone a steal. If sites like these are going to be any competition and attract any buyers then the prices need to fall dramatically. I blame it on the sellers greed. So their items sit there for months - un-sold. I do not have that kind of time. Even if I were to start posting items at prices I would expect them to sell for on the bay, they would sit there for months because of very few people looking at these sites. I do not have that kind of time.
               
              eBay & eBay sellers, with all of their faults and there are many, still allow me to buy items and collections low, pick what I want out of them and sell off what I do not need quickly and efficiently.
               
              It took one second to see the Varney Old Lady listed at a starting bid of $98 to remind me... then I saw all the plastic Varney freight cars with starting bids of $9.99 when I have a hard time of selling them at $2.99 when I list them. It's just a shame to me...It is frustrating because I would love to dump the bay and move on to something better.
               
              Sean

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Larry <mrncartoon@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 7:22:59 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] A Bunch of Varney

               

              More Varney than I have seen up for bid in a long time has been posted to www.ebid.net with full train sets to individual cars and locomotive kits up for bid and sale. I am not the seller, nor in any way connected but these items should interest a lot of group members.
               
              eBid is a competitor of eBay and does not restrict buyers to PayPal only payments. When you first hit the home page you will need to sellect the county (United States), you can browse without creating an account but to make a bid, purchase or sell you will need to have an account. They have a lot more items than www.mylittleauctions.com does but they are another site worth an occaisonal look.
               
              Larry Miller III
              larmil111


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15143 From: rcjge Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
              Hi Andrew:

              Do you have a pic of that Conover 0-4-0 Cabless Mining Locomotive? Love to see any pics you or anyone else has?

              Thanks,
              Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Emmerson" <andrew.emmerson4@...> wrote:
              >
              > I think I can help you folk here.
              >
              > The 1938 Conover catalogue has only two locos, the "H-O Mine or gasoline switcher" and the "H-O 4-4-0 American type locomotive. Tender drive. Wealth of detail."
              >
              > The 1939 (Fourth Edition) catalogue lists these two locos again and also devotes four pages plus a 4-page insert to the B&O 2-10-2 Type Locomotive, "A heavy duty freight locomotive, Santa Fe type, suitable for heavy freight hauls. The construction is Conover type throughout and gives you two or three rail distribution at the same price.". There are two (small) photos of the loco and several drawings of the piece parts. It says "We feel our castings are the finest available. They are cast in French sand and acid dipped to a gold finish. They require very little cleaning up."
              >
              > I can scan the pages if anyone wants them. In addition I have a goodly collection of pre-war American catalogues for H0 and 00, and may be able to help other people with their research.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Andy Emmerson.
              >
              >
              > From: the_plainsman
              > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:13 PM
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Notes on CONOVER and CONOVER - LACONIA ads:
              >
              > Hi Jim H., and All
              >
              > A find of eight complete years (except for two issues) of early small-format Model Railroader magazines this summer, dating from 1937, 1939 and 1942-1947, has let me explore and understand those early days of our hobby and of Walther's HO, Red Ball, Mantua, Varney, etc. as well of the other smaller firms.
              >
              > Additionally, the postwar issues have filled in gaps in my knowledge of the immediate postwar years with the development of Dallas/DMC and others, including apparently stillborn HO steam locomotive projects of Red Ball, Auel and other possible phantoms such as Denise's GN Y-1 electric (only a prototype photo in their ads). I spent much of my off-line railroading time late this past month pouring over all of the issues at least two or three times, post note tabbing advertising and other items of interest for quick reference.
              >
              > With Jim H.'s current Conover 2-10-2 project under way, I looked the last two nights to see what Conover ads appeared. There are no indexes to advertisers in some of these early years, so a quick, sometimes fallible read must be made of each page and ad.
              >
              > The first of two ads I found, appears on page 474 of the December 1937 issue. A two inch, one column block ad by "Conover Miniature Railroads of 23 Croton Avenue, Tarrytown, N.Y." was headed by the following complete text as written, "HO LOCOMOTIVES, 0-4-0 4-4-0, Machined Kits with all jig drilled parts low priced. Other locomotive parts and supplies in stock. Our latest price list with over one-hundred fifty items sent upon receipt of a 3c stamp." End of text. At the lower left is a cut of an ink drawing of the front of a speeding PRR locomotive, road number 5411.
              >
              > No mention is made of the B&O 2-10-2. The 0-4-0 was likely the cab-less mine locomotive picture in RMC Collector Consist about a decade ago.
              >
              > Since I do not yet have the 1938 issues, the first mention of Conover in 1939 was contained in a full page Laconia ad on page 471 of the September, 1939 MR (as well as an additional half page on Lockhart,). The top quarter of the page is introductory in nature, and begins with the following text.
              >
              > "Introducing a new HO gauge line by Laconia Industries, Inc. - A new company with a seasoned personnel - A new line, designed by a car builder - A new process, all metal embossed cars - A new thrill for any model railroader." The ad continues with this paragraph, "Allow us to make you acquainted with Mr. F. Edwin Maloon, for twenty years, Chief Designer of the Laconia car Company. With a background of actual experience in building railroad cars, Mr. Maloon has now turned his talents upwards the production of authentic models."
              >
              >
              > The center half of the page contains two prototype boxcar photos and a list of the New Laconia line (which I will write more about in the next few days). The last quarter of the page is devoted to the former Conover locomotive line. It begins, "FOR MOTIVE POWER PLUS - Conover-Laconia Presents" followed by a very small prototype illustration of the B&O 2-10-2 with the text at right, "B&O 2-10-2, complete kit, 2- or 3- rail $39.50 Also in four section kits." The text at left of the photo states, " American Type, 4-4-0, complete kit, 2- or 3- rail, $29.50, Also in three section kits." Below the photo is word of another new steam engine kit:
              >
              > "Coming - October Fifteenth, Conover-Laconia 0-6-0 Switcher. Complete kit 2- or 3- rail, $15.00" The ad concluded with their name and address: "Laconia Industries, Inc., Laconia, N.H." Although I am far from being an expert on this line, that is the first I've read about the proposed 0-6-0 to sell at a low $15.00, which would price it at Varney Docksider and Mantua Goat territory.
              >
              > The Conover-Laconial locomotive kits were not mentioned again for the rest of 1939, but the December issue of MR, page 665 contains a quarter page block ad from Laconia, headed with, "AN APOLOGY and an explanation" of their failure to be able to fill orders in a timely manner, not an unusual situation for a new manufacture, likely compounded war clouds building.
              >
              > As I do not have 1938, 1940 and 1941 issues of MR, will look for later references in 1942 and later years. If anyone else has 1938 and 1940-41, thee might be something else of interest there that would tell more of the Conover and their 2-10-2 story. I do recall a post war letter to the editor from the individual who later porchased the Conover molds and sold a few parts sets.
              >
              > Tomorrow I will continue with information on the Lockhart line which Laconia assumed, including fiding some Lockhart freight car information which some of us speculated about a few months ago!
              >
              > W. Jay W.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >
              > > This is the pre war Conover 2-10-2 from 1938 that I am starting to work on. While it might not look like much yet there has been a lot of work done just starting to get the various pieces cleaned up to use. This project will take a while cleaning up the edges where the parts had been attached to the "tree", getting a smooth surface on the parts ( I think I found the way to do that ) plus filing edges and fitting parts together. That all has to be done before I start drilling holes and tapping some of them. I expect months with lots of hours just to get that far.
              > >
              > > I have started mostly on the tender body and will be cleaning / filing the other parts that go with the body. Mean while trying to find or create a few missing parts. Thanks to Sean N I have the Mantua large 6 volt motor that was used to power this engine. I might have to substitute some main and side rods along with the valve gear but I have time to look for original stuff. While I have the drivers I will need lead and trailing truck wheel sets also. They won't be easy to find.
              > >
              > > No hurry. Not going anywhere.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15144 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
              Gareth,
               
                  If you go into hoseeker / Literature / Conover / Page 5 at the top is a picture ( not the best ) and write up about this little 0-4-0- mining loco from a catalog sent in by Ray F W.
               
                                                         Jim H 
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rcjge
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:53 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project

               

              Hi Andrew:

              Do you have a pic of that Conover 0-4-0 Cabless Mining Locomotive? Love to see any pics you or anyone else has?

              Thanks,
              Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Emmerson" <andrew.emmerson4@...> wrote:
              >
              > I think I can help you folk here.
              >
              > The 1938 Conover catalogue has only two locos, the "H-O Mine or gasoline switcher" and the "H-O 4-4-0 American type locomotive. Tender drive. Wealth of detail."
              >
              > The 1939 (Fourth Edition) catalogue lists these two locos again and also devotes four pages plus a 4-page insert to the B&O 2-10-2 Type Locomotive, "A heavy duty freight locomotive, Santa Fe type, suitable for heavy freight hauls. The construction is Conover type throughout and gives you two or three rail distribution at the same price.". There are two (small) photos of the loco and several drawings of the piece parts. It says "We feel our castings are the finest available. They are cast in French sand and acid dipped to a gold finish. They require very little cleaning up."
              >
              > I can scan the pages if anyone wants them. In addition I have a goodly collection of pre-war American catalogues for H0 and 00, and may be able to help other people with their research.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Andy Emmerson.
              >
              >
              > From: the_plainsman
              > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:13 PM
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Notes on CONOVER and CONOVER - LACONIA ads:
              >
              > Hi Jim H., and All
              >
              > A find of eight complete years (except for two issues) of early small-format Model Railroader magazines this summer, dating from 1937, 1939 and 1942-1947, has let me explore and understand those early days of our hobby and of Walther's HO, Red Ball, Mantua, Varney, etc. as well of the other smaller firms.
              >
              > Additionally, the postwar issues have filled in gaps in my knowledge of the immediate postwar years with the development of Dallas/DMC and others, including apparently stillborn HO steam locomotive projects of Red Ball, Auel and other possible phantoms such as Denise's GN Y-1 electric (only a prototype photo in their ads). I spent much of my off-line railroading time late this past month pouring over all of the issues at least two or three times, post note tabbing advertising and other items of interest for quick reference.
              >
              > With Jim H.'s current Conover 2-10-2 project under way, I looked the last two nights to see what Conover ads appeared. There are no indexes to advertisers in some of these early years, so a quick, sometimes fallible read must be made of each page and ad.
              >
              > The first of two ads I found, appears on page 474 of the December 1937 issue. A two inch, one column block ad by "Conover Miniature Railroads of 23 Croton Avenue, Tarrytown, N.Y." was headed by the following complete text as written, "HO LOCOMOTIVES, 0-4-0 4-4-0, Machined Kits with all jig drilled parts low priced. Other locomotive parts and supplies in stock. Our latest price list with over one-hundred fifty items sent upon receipt of a 3c stamp." End of text. At the lower left is a cut of an ink drawing of the front of a speeding PRR locomotive, road number 5411.
              >
              > No mention is made of the B&O 2-10-2. The 0-4-0 was likely the cab-less mine locomotive picture in RMC Collector Consist about a decade ago.
              >
              > Since I do not yet have the 1938 issues, the first mention of Conover in 1939 was contained in a full page Laconia ad on page 471 of the September, 1939 MR (as well as an additional half page on Lockhart,). The top quarter of the page is introductory in nature, and begins with the following text.
              >
              > "Introducing a new HO gauge line by Laconia Industries, Inc. - A new company with a seasoned personnel - A new line, designed by a car builder - A new process, all metal embossed cars - A new thrill for any model railroader." The ad continues with this paragraph, "Allow us to make you acquainted with Mr. F. Edwin Maloon, for twenty years, Chief Designer of the Laconia car Company. With a background of actual experience in building railroad cars, Mr. Maloon has now turned his talents upwards the production of authentic models."
              >
              >
              > The center half of the page contains two prototype boxcar photos and a list of the New Laconia line (which I will write more about in the next few days). The last quarter of the page is devoted to the former Conover locomotive line. It begins, "FOR MOTIVE POWER PLUS - Conover-Laconia Presents" followed by a very small prototype illustration of the B&O 2-10-2 with the text at right, "B&O 2-10-2, complete kit, 2- or 3- rail $39.50 Also in four section kits." The text at left of the photo states, " American Type, 4-4-0, complete kit, 2- or 3- rail, $29.50, Also in three section kits." Below the photo is word of another new steam engine kit:
              >
              > "Coming - October Fifteenth, Conover-Laconia 0-6-0 Switcher. Complete kit 2- or 3- rail, $15.00" The ad concluded with their name and address: "Laconia Industries, Inc., Laconia, N.H." Although I am far from being an expert on this line, that is the first I've read about the proposed 0-6-0 to sell at a low $15.00, which would price it at Varney Docksider and Mantua Goat territory.
              >
              > The Conover-Laconial locomotive kits were not mentioned again for the rest of 1939, but the December issue of MR, page 665 contains a quarter page block ad from Laconia, headed with, "AN APOLOGY and an explanation" of their failure to be able to fill orders in a timely manner, not an unusual situation for a new manufacture, likely compounded war clouds building.
              >
              > As I do not have 1938, 1940 and 1941 issues of MR, will look for later references in 1942 and later years. If anyone else has 1938 and 1940-41, thee might be something else of interest there that would tell more of the Conover and their 2-10-2 story. I do recall a post war letter to the editor from the individual who later porchased the Conover molds and sold a few parts sets.
              >
              > Tomorrow I will continue with information on the Lockhart line which Laconia assumed, including fiding some Lockhart freight car information which some of us speculated about a few months ago!
              >
              > W. Jay W.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >
              > > This is the pre war Conover 2-10-2 from 1938 that I am starting to work on. While it might not look like much yet there has been a lot of work done just starting to get the various pieces cleaned up to use. This project will take a while cleaning up the edges where the parts had been attached to the "tree", getting a smooth surface on the parts ( I think I found the way to do that ) plus filing edges and fitting parts together. That all has to be done before I start drilling holes and tapping some of them. I expect months with lots of hours just to get that far.
              > >
              > > I have started mostly on the tender body and will be cleaning / filing the other parts that go with the body. Mean while trying to find or create a few missing parts. Thanks to Sean N I have the Mantua large 6 volt motor that was used to power this engine. I might have to substitute some main and side rods along with the valve gear but I have time to look for original stuff. While I have the drivers I will need lead and trailing truck wheel sets also. They won't be easy to find.
              > >
              > > No hurry. Not going anywhere.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15145 From: rcjge Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
              Thanks Jim!

              That's a pretty cool critter! But $35 in 1939! My Mom told me that when she was a girl in the 30's in Canada the minimum wage was $12.50 A WEEK! I'd guess you'd be looking at $350-400 in today's dollars.

              -Gareth

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gareth,
              >
              > If you go into hoseeker / Literature / Conover / Page 5 at the top is a picture ( not the best ) and write up about this little 0-4-0- mining loco from a catalog sent in by Ray F W.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: rcjge
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:53 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Andrew:
              >
              > Do you have a pic of that Conover 0-4-0 Cabless Mining Locomotive? Love to see any pics you or anyone else has?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Gareth
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Emmerson" <andrew.emmerson4@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I think I can help you folk here.
              > >
              > > The 1938 Conover catalogue has only two locos, the "H-O Mine or gasoline switcher" and the "H-O 4-4-0 American type locomotive. Tender drive. Wealth of detail."
              > >
              > > The 1939 (Fourth Edition) catalogue lists these two locos again and also devotes four pages plus a 4-page insert to the B&O 2-10-2 Type Locomotive, "A heavy duty freight locomotive, Santa Fe type, suitable for heavy freight hauls. The construction is Conover type throughout and gives you two or three rail distribution at the same price.". There are two (small) photos of the loco and several drawings of the piece parts. It says "We feel our castings are the finest available. They are cast in French sand and acid dipped to a gold finish. They require very little cleaning up."
              > >
              > > I can scan the pages if anyone wants them. In addition I have a goodly collection of pre-war American catalogues for H0 and 00, and may be able to help other people with their research.
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > > Andy Emmerson.
              > >
              > >
              > > From: the_plainsman
              > > Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:13 PM
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Jim's CONOVER 2-10-2 Project
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Notes on CONOVER and CONOVER - LACONIA ads:
              > >
              > > Hi Jim H., and All
              > >
              > > A find of eight complete years (except for two issues) of early small-format Model Railroader magazines this summer, dating from 1937, 1939 and 1942-1947, has let me explore and understand those early days of our hobby and of Walther's HO, Red Ball, Mantua, Varney, etc. as well of the other smaller firms.
              > >
              > > Additionally, the postwar issues have filled in gaps in my knowledge of the immediate postwar years with the development of Dallas/DMC and others, including apparently stillborn HO steam locomotive projects of Red Ball, Auel and other possible phantoms such as Denise's GN Y-1 electric (only a prototype photo in their ads). I spent much of my off-line railroading time late this past month pouring over all of the issues at least two or three times, post note tabbing advertising and other items of interest for quick reference.
              > >
              > > With Jim H.'s current Conover 2-10-2 project under way, I looked the last two nights to see what Conover ads appeared. There are no indexes to advertisers in some of these early years, so a quick, sometimes fallible read must be made of each page and ad.
              > >
              > > The first of two ads I found, appears on page 474 of the December 1937 issue. A two inch, one column block ad by "Conover Miniature Railroads of 23 Croton Avenue, Tarrytown, N.Y." was headed by the following complete text as written, "HO LOCOMOTIVES, 0-4-0 4-4-0, Machined Kits with all jig drilled parts low priced. Other locomotive parts and supplies in stock. Our latest price list with over one-hundred fifty items sent upon receipt of a 3c stamp." End of text. At the lower left is a cut of an ink drawing of the front of a speeding PRR locomotive, road number 5411.
              > >
              > > No mention is made of the B&O 2-10-2. The 0-4-0 was likely the cab-less mine locomotive picture in RMC Collector Consist about a decade ago.
              > >
              > > Since I do not yet have the 1938 issues, the first mention of Conover in 1939 was contained in a full page Laconia ad on page 471 of the September, 1939 MR (as well as an additional half page on Lockhart,). The top quarter of the page is introductory in nature, and begins with the following text.
              > >
              > > "Introducing a new HO gauge line by Laconia Industries, Inc. - A new company with a seasoned personnel - A new line, designed by a car builder - A new process, all metal embossed cars - A new thrill for any model railroader." The ad continues with this paragraph, "Allow us to make you acquainted with Mr. F. Edwin Maloon, for twenty years, Chief Designer of the Laconia car Company. With a background of actual experience in building railroad cars, Mr. Maloon has now turned his talents upwards the production of authentic models."
              > >
              > >
              > > The center half of the page contains two prototype boxcar photos and a list of the New Laconia line (which I will write more about in the next few days). The last quarter of the page is devoted to the former Conover locomotive line. It begins, "FOR MOTIVE POWER PLUS - Conover-Laconia Presents" followed by a very small prototype illustration of the B&O 2-10-2 with the text at right, "B&O 2-10-2, complete kit, 2- or 3- rail $39.50 Also in four section kits." The text at left of the photo states, " American Type, 4-4-0, complete kit, 2- or 3- rail, $29.50, Also in three section kits." Below the photo is word of another new steam engine kit:
              > >
              > > "Coming - October Fifteenth, Conover-Laconia 0-6-0 Switcher. Complete kit 2- or 3- rail, $15.00" The ad concluded with their name and address: "Laconia Industries, Inc., Laconia, N.H." Although I am far from being an expert on this line, that is the first I've read about the proposed 0-6-0 to sell at a low $15.00, which would price it at Varney Docksider and Mantua Goat territory.
              > >
              > > The Conover-Laconial locomotive kits were not mentioned again for the rest of 1939, but the December issue of MR, page 665 contains a quarter page block ad from Laconia, headed with, "AN APOLOGY and an explanation" of their failure to be able to fill orders in a timely manner, not an unusual situation for a new manufacture, likely compounded war clouds building.
              > >
              > > As I do not have 1938, 1940 and 1941 issues of MR, will look for later references in 1942 and later years. If anyone else has 1938 and 1940-41, thee might be something else of interest there that would tell more of the Conover and their 2-10-2 story. I do recall a post war letter to the editor from the individual who later porchased the Conover molds and sold a few parts sets.
              > >
              > > Tomorrow I will continue with information on the Lockhart line which Laconia assumed, including fiding some Lockhart freight car information which some of us speculated about a few months ago!
              > >
              > > W. Jay W.
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > > >>
              > > >
              > > > This is the pre war Conover 2-10-2 from 1938 that I am starting to work on. While it might not look like much yet there has been a lot of work done just starting to get the various pieces cleaned up to use. This project will take a while cleaning up the edges where the parts had been attached to the "tree", getting a smooth surface on the parts ( I think I found the way to do that ) plus filing edges and fitting parts together. That all has to be done before I start drilling holes and tapping some of them. I expect months with lots of hours just to get that far.
              > > >
              > > > I have started mostly on the tender body and will be cleaning / filing the other parts that go with the body. Mean while trying to find or create a few missing parts. Thanks to Sean N I have the Mantua large 6 volt motor that was used to power this engine. I might have to substitute some main and side rods along with the valve gear but I have time to look for original stuff. While I have the drivers I will need lead and trailing truck wheel sets also. They won't be easy to find.
              > > >
              > > > No hurry. Not going anywhere.
              > > >
              > > > Jim H
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15146 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
              The 20-page  5th anniversary (1939) edition of Nason's catalogue has four pages on this loco. Side view drawing plus drawings of the cylinder castings, bogies, driving wheel and coupling rods. The text  covers the model's specification, the various kits of parts and prices of all the piece parts.
               
              Scans on request.
               
              Andy Emmerson.

              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 1:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: winning bid, new project

               

              Jeff,
               
                  Thanks for the information. While I have heard of Nason I guess the reason I had no idea what it was is that I was trying to put it in an HO context. When it arrives I'll have to check it and Nason out. Any idea when it might have been made ?
               
                                                                    Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jbark76
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:45 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: winning bid, new project

               


              It's actually OO scale. The N stands for Nason and it is a NYC Hudson.
              -Jeff-

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15147 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
              Hi Andy,
               
                 I would appreciate it very much if you could send the scans of the 4 pages from the Nason catalog either to the vintage HO site or directly to me at  jimheck@..., They will give me some idea of what I got versus what I might need. Thanks in advance
               
                                                         Jim Heckard
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 4:49 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: winning bid, new project

               

              The 20-page  5th anniversary (1939) edition of Nason's catalogue has four pages on this loco. Side view drawing plus drawings of the cylinder castings, bogies, driving wheel and coupling rods. The text  covers the model's specification, the various kits of parts and prices of all the piece parts.
               
              Scans on request.
               
              Andy Emmerson.

              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 1:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: winning bid, new project

               

              Jeff,
               
                  Thanks for the information. While I have heard of Nason I guess the reason I had no idea what it was is that I was trying to put it in an HO context. When it arrives I'll have to check it and Nason out. Any idea when it might have been made ?
               
                                                                    Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jbark76
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:45 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: winning bid, new project

               


              It's actually OO scale. The N stands for Nason and it is a NYC Hudson.
              -Jeff-

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15148 From: Brent Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Con Cor SW7
              Ralph

              Thanks for your help.
              Anything will help as mine is only in the foam and cardbox it came in.

              Brent


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Brent wrote:
              > >
              > > Would anbody have the simple instruction sheet for the above loco?
              > >
              > --------------------
              > Brent,
              >
              > Well, I finally found the right box down in the basement. The instruction sheet basically covers only the body; there's nothing about the mechanism except a simplified view and the notation about the body locating pins. Is this what you want?
              >
              > I have the sheet on the scanner now, but there's a problem somewhere - the computer can't see the scanner. I'm no electronics wizard, so it will probably take me a day or two to find and fix.
              >
              > Ralph B
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15149 From: jbark76 Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
              http://americanoo.blogspot.com/search/label/Nason
              Here's some info on Nason stuff, with a bit about the Hudson. There is also a Yahoo site for OO called "American OO". I also subscribe to a newsletter from the OO SIG (NMRA) that has information on OO. (I hope to incorperate a loop of OO into an HO layout someday.)
              -Jeff-
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15150 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
              Jeff,
               
                   I'm to poor of a man to start and add a new gauge. I'm to deep into the collecting of vintage HO.  I read about the Yahoo site for OO and know about the SIG OO and Newsletter from Google. Good luck with your combining the HO with the OO. Unless you are up close you might not even notice. I've seen some incorporate N gauge into their HO.
               
                                                       Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: jbark76
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 6:37 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: winning bid, new project

               


              http://americanoo.blogspot.com/search/label/Nason
              Here's some info on Nason stuff, with a bit about the Hudson. There is also a Yahoo site for OO called "American OO". I also subscribe to a newsletter from the OO SIG (NMRA) that has information on OO. (I hope to incorperate a loop of OO into an HO layout someday.)
              -Jeff-

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15151 From: Nelson Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
              This is the 3rd time I'm responding to this, and I don't understand why the first two posts are apparently lost. Maybe it's because I included a link, which I will leave out this time.

              Gerold, Donald hit the nail on the head. My email refers to C&O Greenbrier 4-8-4 614. I rode the excursions every year they operated in the late 90's, and worked as a volunteer on a few trips as well. Even got a runby cab ride.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:

              > Hi Nelson,
              >
              > only now noticed your email address "Greenbriar614...." is this related
              > to the Greenbriar (Corvair) Van of the early sixties?? there was a
              > version with 164 CID engine - numbers that also show up in your
              > address.. ... too much coincidence not to ask.
              >
              > Gerold
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15152 From: erieberk Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Original Conover -1 castings
              Hi Jim, I'd guess you might have seen my earlier post today on Lockhart, etc., which I dug my notes out for to go over once more. In checking through my notes, I came across another small but important tid-bit on Conover which I hadn't caught before, and which I'm sure you'd be interested in. While I don't know if Fred Farrar was owner of this company, it was the Baldwin Company in Connecticut that re-offered the Conover 2-10-2 castings after WW II. Just thought that you might like to know (LOL), to help fill in another piece of the puzzle. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Jeff , All,
              >
              > Sending some pictures of the original sand castings from the Conover S-1 2-10-2 made in 1938. Hope they can been seen.
              >
              > If you look at all the pictures you will notice the surface is not as smooth as the pictures Jeff B sent of an S-1 that looks identical made around 1950. You will also see the heavy "sprues" that had to be cut to get the pieces of the "tree" especially the last picture that is the bottom of the tender. It is because of these two things that this engine was hard to build and very labor intensive.
              >
              > I have dug up the name Fred Farrar from Massachusetts as the person who bought the original sand casting molds and left over stock from Conover. This might be the person who produced the smoother pieces for the engine Jeff B has. Have not found out the name they were produced under but supposedly there is an article in a magazine ( which one I don't know ).
              >
              > Maybe Jeff BE can provide this from paperwork he has. Very interesting.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15153 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Original Conover -1 castings
              Ray F W
              ,
                  That's a really good tid-bit. That companies name is a fact I haven't heard before. Its like a jig saw puzzle trying to piece this history together. THANKS.
               
                                                                        Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: erieberk
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 9:31 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Original Conover -1 castings

               



              Hi Jim, I'd guess you might have seen my earlier post today on Lockhart, etc., which I dug my notes out for to go over once more. In checking through my notes, I came across another small but important tid-bit on Conover which I hadn't caught before, and which I'm sure you'd be interested in. While I don't know if Fred Farrar was owner of this company, it was the Baldwin Company in Connecticut that re-offered the Conover 2-10-2 castings after WW II. Just thought that you might like to know (LOL), to help fill in another piece of the puzzle. Ray F.W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Jeff , All,
              >
              > Sending some pictures of the original sand castings from the Conover S-1 2-10-2 made in 1938. Hope they can been seen.
              >
              > If you look at all the pictures you will notice the surface is not as smooth as the pictures Jeff B sent of an S-1 that looks identical made around 1950. You will also see the heavy "sprues" that had to be cut to get the pieces of the "tree" especially the last picture that is the bottom of the tender. It is because of these two things that this engine was hard to build and very labor intensive.
              >
              > I have dug up the name Fred Farrar from Massachusetts as the person who bought the original sand casting molds and left over stock from Conover. This might be the person who produced the smoother pieces for the engine Jeff B has. Have not found out the name they were produced under but supposedly there is an article in a magazine ( which one I don't know ).
              >
              > Maybe Jeff BE can provide this from paperwork he has. Very interesting.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15154 From: erieberk Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1
              Jim, I just went up to Jeff's photos of his B&O S-1, but I can't tell how smooth the boiler casting is. I notice you're saying that his castings are very smooth, though, but as my monitor isn't picking that up well I find myself questioning it. I'm also questioning your statement that the original Conover castings were not very smooth, and while I'm not meaning to doubt you, I'm bringing this all up for good reason since I've dug up more info describing them which may help identify the era in which your castings were made.

              The first thing I'd like to mention, which did not need to be dug up, is the description of the original castings as written in the Conover catalog which you have a copy of. You'll notice that for the Superstructure/Boiler, the catalog describes it as "A clean detailed bronze casting for the boiler." As for the mechanism, it describes it as having "A beautiful clean cast bronze frame." It goes on to say, "This has been accurately milled to within a thousandth of an inch to take the axles. It has been drilled and tapped and 5 sets of drivers mounted and quartered with the bottom plate of the brass screwed in place."

              While I know you don't have the frame yet, this appears to me that full machining has been done to the frame to make it ready to assemble to the boiler with no further filing, etc. Likewise, the description as "clean" for both the boiler and the frame tends to tell me that it's "smooth," at least that's what I take out of this. I would think that even if pieces of these engine kits were parted out to various modelers, there would be no filing needed to be done nor any sprues that needed to be hacksawed off, as all of this work had already been done in the factory. Yes, I'm also leading up to something. Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > The pictures Jeff B sent ( that I finally got opened ) has kind of opened a possible story concerning the original Conover S-1 made in 1938 ( check out the Conover catalog on hoseeker sent in by Ray F W ) and a possible re issue or a kind of knock off made around 1950 from information Jeff B has.
              >
              > The original Conover castings were not very smooth, kind of a rough pitted look, and had large "sprues" that were hack sawed off. These are the parts I just got and which I believe are from the original 1938 kit.
              >
              > The pictures Jeff sent of his the castings are very smooth. Everything, every detail, looks exactly the same as if the same molds were used even to the sides of the cab being sheet brass parts. It will be interesting to try to get all the info available to find out the whole story.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15155 From: Nelson Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
              Jim,

              I was wondering if you were the buyer of this Varney-Mantua hybrid, but apparently not. I was going to point it out to you, but someone bought it before I got the chance.

              http://tinyurl.com/34ltb6n

              It would have looked good next to the Beast.

              That Nason looks like a very ambitious project.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > If you go to eBay item 290476553549 Vintage brass Engine not assembled marked with the letter N you will see my latest purchase. Usually I have a clue but I honestly don't know what it is or made by who. Yes I know it is a 4-6-4 and the tender looks New York Central but thats it. Any ideas ?
              >
              > After I finish or get tired of my Conover 2-10-2 I have this new project that will again mean grinding , filing, sanding, drilling, tapping, etc. As I told someone I'm a glutton for punishment. Hey it could be a long cold winter.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15156 From: jim heckard Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1
              Ray F W,
               
                   Headed to bed right now. I have a later Email sent to the site where I questioned my own statements after reading where the Conover catalog stated about clean castings. Have to reread and find it tomorrow where I question that my castings are NOT the original and might actually be a post war reissue.
               
                                                                  Jim H.
               
                            Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: erieberk
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 10:35 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Conover S-1

               



              Jim, I just went up to Jeff's photos of his B&O S-1, but I can't tell how smooth the boiler casting is. I notice you're saying that his castings are very smooth, though, but as my monitor isn't picking that up well I find myself questioning it. I'm also questioning your statement that the original Conover castings were not very smooth, and while I'm not meaning to doubt you, I'm bringing this all up for good reason since I've dug up more info describing them which may help identify the era in which your castings were made.

              The first thing I'd like to mention, which did not need to be dug up, is the description of the original castings as written in the Conover catalog which you have a copy of. You'll notice that for the Superstructure/Boiler, the catalog describes it as "A clean detailed bronze casting for the boiler." As for the mechanism, it describes it as having "A beautiful clean cast bronze frame." It goes on to say, "This has been accurately milled to within a thousandth of an inch to take the axles. It has been drilled and tapped and 5 sets of drivers mounted and quartered with the bottom plate of the brass screwed in place."

              While I know you don't have the frame yet, this appears to me that full machining has been done to the frame to make it ready to assemble to the boiler with no further filing, etc. Likewise, the description as "clean" for both the boiler and the frame tends to tell me that it's "smooth," at least that's what I take out of this. I would think that even if pieces of these engine kits were parted out to various modelers, there would be no filing needed to be done nor any sprues that needed to be hacksawed off, as all of this work had already been done in the factory. Yes, I'm also leading up to something. Ray F.W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > The pictures Jeff B sent ( that I finally got opened ) has kind of opened a possible story concerning the original Conover S-1 made in 1938 ( check out the Conover catalog on hoseeker sent in by Ray F W ) and a possible re issue or a kind of knock off made around 1950 from information Jeff B has.
              >
              > The original Conover castings were not very smooth, kind of a rough pitted look, and had large "sprues" that were hack sawed off. These are the parts I just got and which I believe are from the original 1938 kit.
              >
              > The pictures Jeff sent of his the castings are very smooth. Everything, every detail, looks exactly the same as if the same molds were used even to the sides of the cab being sheet brass parts. It will be interesting to try to get all the info available to find out the whole story.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15157 From: erieberk Date: 9/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Question about post war Conover owner
              Jim, I realize that back on September 3rd, in reference to the rough pitted Conover castings with sprues, you mentioned "These are the parts I just got and which I believe are from the original 1938 kit. Although, yesterday you just said "I know they are Conover from the original molds but because of some discrepancies of information they might be a post War re issue." While it appears here that you may now be having some doubt as to when your Conover parts were produced, I'm not trying to de-value your parts as not being original, but additional info I've come across would seem to indicate you may have post-War parts.

              While I've read that Jeff's Conover parts were all smooth, I haven't read where he received them in that condition, nor do I know whether or not the parts were worked on before he got them -- unless I missed those parts. Not knowing otherwise though, I would even tend to think his parts were original if everything was machined. If this were not the case, then I have to believe that there was more than one outfit (or individual?) who sold Conover 2-10-2 parts as there were parts definitely sold post-War that were not machined nor were they smooth casting, but instead rough and pitted.

              Going to the HOSC&H SIG "The Reporting Mark" Volume 13, Issue 4, Page 4, upon just acquiring a complete post-War casting set of the Conover 2-10-2 member Ron Rosenberg writes: "The castings do require a tremendous amount of machining and filing work to prepare them for a finished model." There is a photo of Ron's casting set, and it's clearly seen -- even as stated in the article -- that NONE of the frame machining had been done. There were not even any slots milled out for the driver axles to set in, but the frame looked like little more than a piece of solid bar stock. All the castings were notably rough and needed a lot of filing, similar to yours.

              Now, going to the HOSC&H SIG's "The Reporting Mark" Volume 6, Issue 1, Page 8, member Graham Harvey states that he has an original Conover B&O 1-10-2, and that the boiler casting has Conover's name in the die -- with it being cast inside the shell. I haven't heard you mention that your's has this cast-in "Conover" name in the boiler. I can vouch for Graham's integrity as I got to know him about 35 years ago (he lives in Queens, NY), even before Dave Spanagel started the HOSC&H SIG. Graham was friends with Hal Fletcher, Gordon Varney's NorthEastern USA Representative as they both belonged to the Empire Model Railroad Club in New York. While I don't know Ron personally, he was a well respected modeler (maybe still is) who wrote many articles for the hobby.

              Oh, before I forget, and I almost did, I just wanted to point out after noticing Jeff's Conover model, that it appear like his flanged driver sets are the first one and the last one (rather than the 2nd and 4th, as per Conover). The number of blind drivers will ensure that this engine can take a fairly sharp radius, but having the flanges in the 2nd & 4th positions will ensure none of the drivers will go outside the railhead on sharp curves. With the flanged drivers in the 1st and last positions, the center drivers could sway beyond the gauge, and on tight (#4, especially) turnouts, could even drop outside of the gauge. Ray F.W.




              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > W Jay W,
              >
              > In your last post you wrote a sentence " I do recall a post war letter to the editor from the individual who later purchased the Conover molds and sold a few parts sets. "
              >
              > I already have a name of a person from Massachusetts who supposedly purchased the Conover molds and possibly produced some parts. I hesitate to share the name right now even though this person has died recently. I don't want to put out information that might not be fact. The reason I would like to find out for sure is a small controversy I have about the Conover kit / parts I have. I know they are Conover from the original molds but because of some discrepancies of information they MIGHT be a post war re issue.
              >
              > Would appreciate if you could find the name of the person who wrote that letter to the editor.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15158 From: erieberk Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Lockhart Freight Car Additions, and Charlen
              Chuck H, I'm assuming that you may have have noticed my announcement to W. Jay W. as assistance in his quest for any Lockhart, Laconia or Conover info, of the spreadsheets we added to the Files section. As I just now came up with a few more verified car reporting numbers, would you please add them to the spreadsheet?

              These additional Lockhart car side numbers are :

              TR-5 Colorado Southern 75134
              TR-6 Borden's (NWX) 85354
              TR-7 Armour (ARL) 262
              TR-10 Mathieson Dry Ice 5010
              TR-14 Fruit Growers Exp. (FDEX) 9249
              TB-1 Seaboard (SAL) 18932
              TB-3 C&NW 65114
              TR-? Merchants Despatch (MDT) 37031 -- Late Introduction
              TB-? PRR (Large Keystone) 56556 -- Late Introduction

              Concerning Charlen Models, while I don't have their car reporting numbers, it has been firmly established that they made only 5 different kits -- 3 reefers and 2 box cars -- and they are, Armour (ARL)- Pure Star Lard, Merchants Despatch MDT, Pacific Fruit Express PFE, Baltimore & Ohio, and Pennsylvania RR - Keystone. Even while Conover was cataloging and handling these kits, it appears with further research that they were an independent company, as I suspected. Their kits were of cardstock sides and ends on a wooden body. The wood body consisted of having the car ends rabbited into the roof and floor, so the construction was well designed. Ray F.W.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15159 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Conover 2-10-2
               Ray,
               
                   Have gone over your emails and a lot to read and I don't know exactly were to start but here goes.
               
                  First HO history concerning a product that not much is known about can be a constantly evolving story. This is the case concerning the Conover 2-10-2. What might be accepted at first at face value changes as more information becomes available Hopefully facts not fiction ( peoples opinions ). I'm not worried about the value of my Conover pieces. I want to search out the truth
               
                 Let me first say that I am still in touch with many members of the HOSC&H-SIG group also and along with this Yahoo site others sites trying to piece together a story that till lately wasn't discussed much. Just like members you mentioned from the HOSC&H group I have sought out other members opinions on Conover. ( By the way one you forgot to remember that wrote about Conover and provided pictures of his engine was Frank Bell Jr.). Trying to sort through all  these people have told is hard.
               
                Many members from the HOSC&H that I still am in touch with are of the opinion that Conover parts were poor and needed work to finish and that was my basis for feeling what I did / do. Remember hardly any paperwork from Conover was available at that time that I remember. Also in almost 3 years being on Yahoo sites I don't remember any discussions, on any site, talking abut this engine till now.  Honestly how much did you know ( factual ) about this engine, even when you were a member of the HOSC&H, until you got that catalog and these discussions started ?
               
                 Now how ever my thoughts are being changed as more evidence is coming out. When I got my parts they fell in line with the majority of the "stories" previously told to me. I had no reason to doubt the knowledge of THESE people either. ( I didn't know or correspond with Graham Harvey or Ron Rosenberger and what they stated but had many talks / letters with Frank Bell Jr and others.)  Honestly Ray do you remember originally reading these statements you cite now ? There was soooo much information to take in on a myriad of subjects. The part you mentioned about the name Conover being cast in the boiler is news to me. I missed that. Mine does not.
               
                 A color photograph from Frank Bell Jr., that I showed on this and other sites, had me wondering how this engine looked so clean, smooth and shiny but since nothing had come forward over the years about the possibility of more then the original pre war issue I just thought the builder put a LOT of time in it .
               
                When you got that Conover catalog a lot started to change. Yes I read the part about clean and machined castings which I kind of took at face value because they ( Conover ) on a page before after first talking about the 2-10-2 mentioned they had a machine shop available to help modelers build what I took as including this engine. Why did they make that offer if everything was machined, drilled, tapped and easy to work with ?  I have seen catalogs printed ahead of time contain wrong information.
               
               When I got my Conover parts, definitely made from the Conover molds / dies I was already starting to question were they original ( pre war 1938 ). Remember at this point in time  Jeff B had not come forward with pictures of his engine and the paperwork / drawings from late 40' early 50's. I was thinking in terms of different runs of parts being made and sold in different years, some finished others rough.
               
                Jeff B's revelations ( to me ) changed all that. There were definitely two different runs for sure one being pre war and one post war. When he sent the pictures of his engine he mentioned that when bought he was told it was made  post war and then when he sent the paperwork / drawings with the post war dates.  I again was confused as to what was made when.
               
                I have been exchanging emails with many people on Yahoo sites and with privet individuals so I'm not sure what Email was sent to who but I know that in one I mentioned that I had " a radical idea". I was now starting to be convinced my parts were post war ( because of the above ) and Jeff's could be too. After all you remember that some of the private discussions you and I were part of I mentioned about Fred Farrar of Massachusetts having the original molds and having bought the left over Conover stock which he had started "cleaning /milling " and selling.  Now you mention Baldwin Company and could they be one in the same. That is why I was asking W Jay W for the name of the person he had heard connected with Conover and later run / reissues other then the pre war..
               
                I have been searching and trying to pin down the truth even as things change.  I didn't know it back then and still don't. Honestly do you or ANYONE  know for sure the " Whole truth and nothing but the truth '' ?????    I will keep searching thats for sure.
                                     
               
               ( Hope I made no mistakes even in spellng but sending this before I lose it. )
               
                                                     Have a great day,
                                                      Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15160 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Re: winning bid, new project
               Nelson,
               
                  No I didn't get it. Watching other items at the time and decided to buy the parts that turned out to be a OO Nason Hudson. Still thinking on bidding on one other item.
               
                                           Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson
              Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 11:16 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: winning bid, new project

               

              Jim,

              I was wondering if you were the buyer of this Varney-Mantua hybrid, but apparently not. I was going to point it out to you, but someone bought it before I got the chance.

              http://tinyurl.com/34ltb6n

              It would have looked good next to the Beast.

              That Nason looks like a very ambitious project.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > If you go to eBay item 290476553549 Vintage brass Engine not assembled marked with the letter N you will see my latest purchase. Usually I have a clue but I honestly don't know what it is or made by who. Yes I know it is a 4-6-4 and the tender looks New York Central but thats it. Any ideas ?
              >
              > After I finish or get tired of my Conover 2-10-2 I have this new project that will again mean grinding , filing, sanding, drilling, tapping, etc. As I told someone I'm a glutton for punishment. Hey it could be a long cold winter.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15161 From: erieberk Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
              Jim, I'm going right to the very end of your post, and BTW, thanks for sending as much stuff here as you did (I know it's a lot of work & time). NO, emphatically, I do not know the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Conover and their 2-10-2, and I very much doubt that anyone else does. Finding and fitting pieces of these jig-saws together 70 years after the fact is like pulling teeth -- very similar to trying to gt all the pieces of Adams & Sons Foundry at this late date. I'm trying to just throw out there some additional info that I see as reliable, but just as none of us knows the facts for sure, we probably do need to take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt -- but grabbing pieces of the puzzle for now is probably the best we can hope for to obtain more knowledge about this manufacturer until someone else comes along knowing better.

              Getting back to Graham Harvey and his claim, all's I can tell you is that as I know him, he hasn't given me any cause to doubt him, but then I don't know him as a best friend but just an upstanding person in the RR modelers circle. I can't verify his claim as I never saw his engine.

              Concerning Conover's machine shop and their offering to do any needed work on someone's engine, while they certainly would have had all the machinery necessary to do anything needed to an engine to be able to assemble it. I'm more of the opinion that the services they offered along these lines was mainly to just assemble kits, as there are still modelers out there today who would just prefer to shake the box rather than to HAVE to assemble something if they didn't want to. I'm not saying this was Conover's main purpose in offering this service, as I have no idea, but it's only as I tend to see it.

              Touching back on your Conover castings, whether they were produced in 1938 or in 1948, they are STILL great items to have in one's collection. Any such castings had to have come from molds that were originally made to Conover's specs for this engine and regardless of who owned these molds or who poured the molten metal at the time the castings were made would still have to produce the same product. As it does appear though, from what Conover is saying, any of the castings they produced were most probably released as fully machined and ground as they had all the equipment for it. Someone just acquiring the dies from Conover and using them after the War may not necessarily have had a fully equipped machine shop to go along with finishing these castings as Conover had done.

              Incidentally, I took another look at Jeff's 2-10-2 this morning, using another monitor I have (which shows the engine in detail). With it, I can see how the boiler and tender are both "polished" quite smoothly, even though I can see pock marks and indentations (both, also smoothed) in the castings but that's part of sand casting. Someone obviously put time into these castings, either by hand or by machine, to get them to the state they're in, whether it was Conover as original production (since it now appears at least to me, that whatever they released was smoothly finished, having the shop to do it) or whether Fred Farrar (or someone else???), as possibly one of maybe two different people who smoothed the castings he offered post-War.

              I realize I'm speculating here, as we don't know all the answers yet but I'm trying to show a plausible scenario from whatever we do know. As a for instance, unless Conover had a number of duplicate molds for this engine and sold them to more than one person or company, for all we know, hypothetically an outfit such as Baldwin could have produced and sold rough castings (such as what Ron Rosenberg bought) and Farrar may have bought a portion of them and cleaned them up himself if he had a machine shop. We may never know, but there's only one way to find out and that's to dig. This is where we lose out when not attending our local meets (model train swap & sells), as we miss the opportunity to discuss these matters with the old-timers who'd often be there.

              BTW, I just want to add that whenever I quote you or anyone else, I already know that you're probably aware of what you've said a little while back, so I know I don't need to remind you -- but it's easy for anyone else to follow what's going on, what I'm referring to and what others previously have said in a thread. In other words, I'm not meaning to throw anything you've said in your face, but I'm sure you already know that part.

              As this is getting a lot for me to type too, I'll make this short, but did you know that you essentially have a George Stock GG-1. in all but name? Albert E. Schraeder bought George Stock's dies and tooling for his GG-1 < g >. Best, Ray Wetzel



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ray,
              >
              > Have gone over your emails and a lot to read and I don't know exactly were to start but here goes.
              >
              > First HO history concerning a product that not much is known about can be a constantly evolving story. This is the case concerning the Conover 2-10-2. What might be accepted at first at face value changes as more information becomes available Hopefully facts not fiction ( peoples opinions ). I'm not worried about the value of my Conover pieces. I want to search out the truth
              >
              > Let me first say that I am still in touch with many members of the HOSC&H-SIG group also and along with this Yahoo site others sites trying to piece together a story that till lately wasn't discussed much. Just like members you mentioned from the HOSC&H group I have sought out other members opinions on Conover. ( By the way one you forgot to remember that wrote about Conover and provided pictures of his engine was Frank Bell Jr.). Trying to sort through all these people have told is hard.
              >
              > Many members from the HOSC&H that I still am in touch with are of the opinion that Conover parts were poor and needed work to finish and that was my basis for feeling what I did / do. Remember hardly any paperwork from Conover was available at that time that I remember. Also in almost 3 years being on Yahoo sites I don't remember any discussions, on any site, talking abut this engine till now. Honestly how much did you know ( factual ) about this engine, even when you were a member of the HOSC&H, until you got that catalog and these discussions started ?
              >
              > Now how ever my thoughts are being changed as more evidence is coming out. When I got my parts they fell in line with the majority of the "stories" previously told to me. I had no reason to doubt the knowledge of THESE people either. ( I didn't know or correspond with Graham Harvey or Ron Rosenberger and what they stated but had many talks / letters with Frank Bell Jr and others.) Honestly Ray do you remember originally reading these statements you cite now ? There was soooo much information to take in on a myriad of subjects. The part you mentioned about the name Conover being cast in the boiler is news to me. I missed that. Mine does not.
              >
              > A color photograph from Frank Bell Jr., that I showed on this and other sites, had me wondering how this engine looked so clean, smooth and shiny but since nothing had come forward over the years about the possibility of more then the original pre war issue I just thought the builder put a LOT of time in it .
              >
              > When you got that Conover catalog a lot started to change. Yes I read the part about clean and machined castings which I kind of took at face value because they ( Conover ) on a page before after first talking about the 2-10-2 mentioned they had a machine shop available to help modelers build what I took as including this engine. Why did they make that offer if everything was machined, drilled, tapped and easy to work with ? I have seen catalogs printed ahead of time contain wrong information.
              >
              > When I got my Conover parts, definitely made from the Conover molds / dies I was already starting to question were they original ( pre war 1938 ). Remember at this point in time Jeff B had not come forward with pictures of his engine and the paperwork / drawings from late 40' early 50's. I was thinking in terms of different runs of parts being made and sold in different years, some finished others rough.
              >
              > Jeff B's revelations ( to me ) changed all that. There were definitely two different runs for sure one being pre war and one post war. When he sent the pictures of his engine he mentioned that when bought he was told it was made post war and then when he sent the paperwork / drawings with the post war dates. I again was confused as to what was made when.
              >
              > I have been exchanging emails with many people on Yahoo sites and with privet individuals so I'm not sure what Email was sent to who but I know that in one I mentioned that I had " a radical idea". I was now starting to be convinced my parts were post war ( because of the above ) and Jeff's could be too. After all you remember that some of the private discussions you and I were part of I mentioned about Fred Farrar of Massachusetts having the original molds and having bought the left over Conover stock which he had started "cleaning /milling " and selling. Now you mention Baldwin Company and could they be one in the same. That is why I was asking W Jay W for the name of the person he had heard connected with Conover and later run / reissues other then the pre war..
              >
              > I have been searching and trying to pin down the truth even as things change. I didn't know it back then and still don't. Honestly do you or ANYONE know for sure the " Whole truth and nothing but the truth '' ????? I will keep searching thats for sure.
              >
              >
              > ( Hope I made no mistakes even in spellng but sending this before I lose it. )
              >
              > Have a great day,
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15162 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
              Ray,
               
                 I totally agree with your statements about how we may never know the whole truth.  As you say case in point is Adams and Son Foundry which we have shared many interesting discussions about.  Just as in that case is where I am at with Conover ( 2-10-2 ). We can guess, assume , suppose about certain things but have to be careful that others realize we are speculating the possibilities while not having the whole picture. People have to understand that so it is not taken as law.
               
                  I appreciate your thoughts ( and your vast knowledge ), always have, on any subject especially where the facts are elusive. It is only in that way that we might get the whole picture.
               
                 I have to go search through my files now for an answer to a question I just got about what is Varney Diesel part no. 2538 where the person says they can't find it on HO seeker. Want to save me some time ?
               
                 
                                                                   Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: erieberk
              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:56 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Conover 2-10-2

               



              Jim, I'm going right to the very end of your post, and BTW, thanks for sending as much stuff here as you did (I know it's a lot of work & time). NO, emphatically, I do not know the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Conover and their 2-10-2, and I very much doubt that anyone else does. Finding and fitting pieces of these jig-saws together 70 years after the fact is like pulling teeth -- very similar to trying to gt all the pieces of Adams & Sons Foundry at this late date. I'm trying to just throw out there some additional info that I see as reliable, but just as none of us knows the facts for sure, we probably do need to take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt -- but grabbing pieces of the puzzle for now is probably the best we can hope for to obtain more knowledge about this manufacturer until someone else comes along knowing better.

              Getting back to Graham Harvey and his claim, all's I can tell you is that as I know him, he hasn't given me any cause to doubt him, but then I don't know him as a best friend but just an upstanding person in the RR modelers circle. I can't verify his claim as I never saw his engine.

              Concerning Conover's machine shop and their offering to do any needed work on someone's engine, while they certainly would have had all the machinery necessary to do anything needed to an engine to be able to assemble it. I'm more of the opinion that the services they offered along these lines was mainly to just assemble kits, as there are still modelers out there today who would just prefer to shake the box rather than to HAVE to assemble something if they didn't want to. I'm not saying this was Conover's main purpose in offering this service, as I have no idea, but it's only as I tend to see it.

              Touching back on your Conover castings, whether they were produced in 1938 or in 1948, they are STILL great items to have in one's collection. Any such castings had to have come from molds that were originally made to Conover's specs for this engine and regardless of who owned these molds or who poured the molten metal at the time the castings were made would still have to produce the same product. As it does appear though, from what Conover is saying, any of the castings they produced were most probably released as fully machined and ground as they had all the equipment for it. Someone just acquiring the dies from Conover and using them after the War may not necessarily have had a fully equipped machine shop to go along with finishing these castings as Conover had done.

              Incidentally, I took another look at Jeff's 2-10-2 this morning, using another monitor I have (which shows the engine in detail). With it, I can see how the boiler and tender are both "polished" quite smoothly, even though I can see pock marks and indentations (both, also smoothed) in the castings but that's part of sand casting. Someone obviously put time into these castings, either by hand or by machine, to get them to the state they're in, whether it was Conover as original production (since it now appears at least to me, that whatever they released was smoothly finished, having the shop to do it) or whether Fred Farrar (or someone else???), as possibly one of maybe two different people who smoothed the castings he offered post-War.

              I realize I'm speculating here, as we don't know all the answers yet but I'm trying to show a plausible scenario from whatever we do know. As a for instance, unless Conover had a number of duplicate molds for this engine and sold them to more than one person or company, for all we know, hypothetically an outfit such as Baldwin could have produced and sold rough castings (such as what Ron Rosenberg bought) and Farrar may have bought a portion of them and cleaned them up himself if he had a machine shop. We may never know, but there's only one way to find out and that's to dig. This is where we lose out when not attending our local meets (model train swap & sells), as we miss the opportunity to discuss these matters with the old-timers who'd often be there.

              BTW, I just want to add that whenever I quote you or anyone else, I already know that you're probably aware of what you've said a little while back, so I know I don't need to remind you -- but it's easy for anyone else to follow what's going on, what I'm referring to and what others previously have said in a thread. In other words, I'm not meaning to throw anything you've said in your face, but I'm sure you already know that part.

              As this is getting a lot for me to type too, I'll make this short, but did you know that you essentially have a George Stock GG-1. in all but name? Albert E. Schraeder bought George Stock's dies and tooling for his GG-1 < g >. Best, Ray Wetzel

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ray,
              >
              > Have gone over your emails and a lot to read and I don't know exactly were to start but here goes.
              >
              > First HO history concerning a product that not much is known about can be a constantly evolving story. This is the case concerning the Conover 2-10-2. What might be accepted at first at face value changes as more information becomes available Hopefully facts not fiction ( peoples opinions ). I'm not worried about the value of my Conover pieces. I want to search out the truth
              >
              > Let me first say that I am still in touch with many members of the HOSC&H-SIG group also and along with this Yahoo site others sites trying to piece together a story that till lately wasn't discussed much. Just like members you mentioned from the HOSC&H group I have sought out other members opinions on Conover. ( By the way one you forgot to remember that wrote about Conover and provided pictures of his engine was Frank Bell Jr.). Trying to sort through all these people have told is hard.
              >
              > Many members from the HOSC&H that I still am in touch with are of the opinion that Conover parts were poor and needed work to finish and that was my basis for feeling what I did / do. Remember hardly any paperwork from Conover was available at that time that I remember. Also in almost 3 years being on Yahoo sites I don't remember any discussions, on any site, talking abut this engine till now. Honestly how much did you know ( factual ) about this engine, even when you were a member of the HOSC&H, until you got that catalog and these discussions started ?
              >
              > Now how ever my thoughts are being changed as more evidence is coming out. When I got my parts they fell in line with the majority of the "stories" previously told to me. I had no reason to doubt the knowledge of THESE people either. ( I didn't know or correspond with Graham Harvey or Ron Rosenberger and what they stated but had many talks / letters with Frank Bell Jr and others.) Honestly Ray do you remember originally reading these statements you cite now ? There was soooo much information to take in on a myriad of subjects. The part you mentioned about the name Conover being cast in the boiler is news to me. I missed that. Mine does not.
              >
              > A color photograph from Frank Bell Jr., that I showed on this and other sites, had me wondering how this engine looked so clean, smooth and shiny but since nothing had come forward over the years about the possibility of more then the original pre war issue I just thought the builder put a LOT of time in it .
              >
              > When you got that Conover catalog a lot started to change. Yes I read the part about clean and machined castings which I kind of took at face value because they ( Conover ) on a page before after first talking about the 2-10-2 mentioned they had a machine shop available to help modelers build what I took as including this engine. Why did they make that offer if everything was machined, drilled, tapped and easy to work with ? I have seen catalogs printed ahead of time contain wrong information.
              >
              > When I got my Conover parts, definitely made from the Conover molds / dies I was already starting to question were they original ( pre war 1938 ). Remember at this point in time Jeff B had not come forward with pictures of his engine and the paperwork / drawings from late 40' early 50's. I was thinking in terms of different runs of parts being made and sold in different years, some finished others rough.
              >
              > Jeff B's revelations ( to me ) changed all that. There were definitely two different runs for sure one being pre war and one post war. When he sent the pictures of his engine he mentioned that when bought he was told it was made post war and then when he sent the paperwork / drawings with the post war dates. I again was confused as to what was made when.
              >
              > I have been exchanging emails with many people on Yahoo sites and with privet individuals so I'm not sure what Email was sent to who but I know that in one I mentioned that I had " a radical idea". I was now starting to be convinced my parts were post war ( because of the above ) and Jeff's could be too. After all you remember that some of the private discussions you and I were part of I mentioned about Fred Farrar of Massachusetts having the original molds and having bought the left over Conover stock which he had started "cleaning /milling " and selling. Now you mention Baldwin Company and could they be one in the same. That is why I was asking W Jay W for the name of the person he had heard connected with Conover and later run / reissues other then the pre war..
              >
              > I have been searching and trying to pin down the truth even as things change. I didn't know it back then and still don't. Honestly do you or ANYONE know for sure the " Whole truth and nothing but the truth '' ????? I will keep searching thats for sure.
              >
              >
              > ( Hope I made no mistakes even in spellng but sending this before I lose it. )
              >
              > Have a great day,
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15163 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Stock GG-1 / Schrader GG-1
              Ray F W
               
                  I forgot to add that everything I know says the George Stock GG-1 became the basis for the Schrader GG-1 as you mentioned.
               
                                                                                             Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15164 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Lockhart Freight Car Additions, and Charlen

              Yes, I will get them added.

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:55 AM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Lockhart Freight Car Additions, and Charlen

               

               

              Chuck H, I'm assuming that you may have have noticed my announcement to W. Jay W. as assistance in his quest for any Lockhart, Laconia or Conover info, of the spreadsheets we added to the Files section. As I just now came up with a few more verified car reporting numbers, would you please add them to the spreadsheet?

              These additional Lockhart car side numbers are :

              TR-5 Colorado Southern 75134
              TR-6 Borden's (NWX) 85354
              TR-7 Armour (ARL) 262
              TR-10 Mathieson Dry Ice 5010
              TR-14 Fruit Growers Exp. (FDEX) 9249
              TB-1 Seaboard (SAL) 18932
              TB-3 C&NW 65114
              TR-? Merchants Despatch (MDT) 37031 -- Late Introduction
              TB-? PRR (Large Keystone) 56556 -- Late Introduction

              Concerning Charlen Models, while I don't have their car reporting numbers, it has been firmly established that they made only 5 different kits -- 3 reefers and 2 box cars -- and they are, Armour (ARL)- Pure Star Lard, Merchants Despatch MDT, Pacific Fruit Express PFE, Baltimore & Ohio, and Pennsylvania RR - Keystone. Even while Conover was cataloging and handling these kits, it appears with further research that they were an independent company, as I suspected. Their kits were of cardstock sides and ends on a wooden body. The wood body consisted of having the car ends rabbited into the roof and floor, so the construction was well designed. Ray F.W.

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15165 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
              Jim, It's looking like that person may be right, about not being able to
              find the Varney Part # 2538. I can't find it in any of my catalogs and I have
              most of them, although not all of them. From what I do see, it appears
              that it would belong to the latest plastic-bodied F-3 that Varney put out --
              the one with the DC-62A motor. All the catalogs I have up to 1956 only go up
              as high as # 2525 -- DC 70 Motor for Diesels. The 1957 catalog of Varney's
              last partial year before selling the company to Sol Kramer goes up to Part
              # 3022, but there is a wide gap of numbers between # 2532-A (Consol Loce
              Frame and Cover Plate assembly) and # 2543 (Worm 64P Nylon 0-4-0). If the
              number exists, It may be as part of a sub-assembly for a larger part, which
              wouldn't be cataloged then as it was not available separately under Varney. I
              only have a scattering of Sol Kramer's catalogs as that was not where my
              main interest is, but any I do have of his do not list parts. Ray </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15166 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
              Ray,
               
               Thanks for checking. To lazy to go in basement pull out all the Varney files , check for diesel part especially when the file clerk does a poor job and has no index. I have to ask the guy to check the number.
               
                                                              Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:57 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Conover 2-10-2

               

              Jim, It's looking like that person may be right, about not being able to
              find the Varney Part # 2538. I can't find it in any of my catalogs and I have
              most of them, although not all of them. From what I do see, it appears
              that it would belong to the latest plastic-bodied F-3 that Varney put out --
              the one with the DC-62A motor. All the catalogs I have up to 1956 only go up
              as high as # 2525 -- DC 70 Motor for Diesels. The 1957 catalog of Varney's
              last partial year before selling the company to Sol Kramer goes up to Part
              # 3022, but there is a wide gap of numbers between # 2532-A (Consol Loce
              Frame and Cover Plate assembly) and # 2543 (Worm 64P Nylon 0-4-0). If the
              number exists, It may be as part of a sub-assembly for a larger part, which
              wouldn't be cataloged then as it was not available separately under Varney. I
              only have a scattering of Sol Kramer's catalogs as that was not where my
              main interest is, but any I do have of his do not list parts. Ray </HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15167 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
              The closest thing I come to it is # 2537-K, Power Truck (for F-3 Diesels #
              2515 and # 2516) as appears in the product pages (but not in the parts
              listings). That's the powered plastic-bodied F-3's, new in 1957. Ray
              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15168 From: jim heckard Date: 9/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2
              Ray,
               
                 Thanks for checking. I sent the guy a message asking him to check the number but he never got back. He probably can't find it because he wrote down the wrong number.
               
                                                                     Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 4:33 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Conover 2-10-2

               

              The closest thing I come to it is # 2537-K, Power Truck (for F-3 Diesels #
              2515 and # 2516) as appears in the product pages (but not in the parts
              listings). That's the powered plastic-bodied F-3's, new in 1957. Ray
              </HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15169 From: jim heckard Date: 9/26/2010
              Subject: Album Pictures
              Jeff B,
               
                      I see you entered a number of pictures in your album which I have looked at. Due to poor eye sight and the pictures being on the dark side ( at least on my monitor ) I am wondering if they are pictures of a Nason OO NYC Hudson that you have ? If so can you share a little about your particular engine as to does it use the motor that Nason describes as the Nason Special that can be used either AC or DC ?  It is my understanding that a Pittman DC-70 can be used. Does your engine have the original drive, running gear and drivers ?
               
                  Because of much information that member Andy E shared with me about the Nason Hudson as far as what is to be original I want to see if other items can be used.  Since I don't have the engine / tender parts here yet I particularly want your opinion if the item could be adopted to HO.
               
                 Any help appreciated.
               
                                                                    Jim H
               
                
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15170 From: jim heckard Date: 9/26/2010
              Subject: your comment
               John ( midpoint37 )
               
               
                          I read your comment that you put on one of the pictures of the rebuilding the Beast album ( which I never finished ). I'm glad you enjoyed the project
               
                   I really like the comment about I should have had a second power reverse for the back set of drivers. I honestly don't know how "prototypical" that would be but I think it would have been a nice touch to a modified Mantua rebuild .
               
                   The steam pipe additions were suggested by others and would be a nice touch. However as the project went along I got to the point that to much super detailing wasn't going to be in the picture.
               
                  Thanks for your response.
               
                                                Jim H
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15171 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 9/26/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /V List Laconia cars.xls
              Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
              Description : List of Laconia models

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Laconia%20cars.xls

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

              Regards,

              chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15172 From: erieberk Date: 9/27/2010
              Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hi Chuck,

              Just got done reviewing what new info you've added to the files for the car side numbers I submitted. My apologies for not being more specific on the manufacturer name's list I meant them to be added to. I guess I just assumed that with them having The catalog numbers of "TR-xx" and "TB-xx" that you would have put them with the rest of the Lockhart-Laconia list that was already in place, and using those same prefixes -- although, as far as I can determine, these catalog numbers were originally the ones first used by Thomas H. Lockhart when they first started being produced in 1937 -- so, if you would, please transfer that new info to the file named; V List Binkley Laconia RevA/doc, under the Lockhart-Laconia Production Kits (pre-War, 1939)listing.

              You can designate the later ones as:

              TR- ? NYC Merchants Despatch (MDT) 37031 (introduced 1940)
              TB- ? Pennsylvania, Lg. Keystone 56556 (introduced 1940)
              and also add,
              TB- ? Pennsylvania, Round Roof 70311

              Incidentally, while T.H. Lockhart ceased to exist as an independent manufacturer after having been bought out and merged with Laconia in September of 1939, and Laconia didn't bring these kits back after the War, that wouldn't be the last we'd see of them. In the April 1959 issue of RMC, Hal Carstens included copies (on cardstock) of the Lockhart TR-6 NYC box car, although with one slight change. He omitted the herald so that the modeler could use decals of his choice in that place, for either the earlier NYC "Lines" or the newer NYC "System." Ray F.W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hello,
              >
              > This email message is a notification to let you know that
              > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              > group.
              >
              > File : /V List Laconia cars.xls
              > Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
              > Description : List of Laconia models
              >
              > You can access this file at the URL:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Laconia%20cars.xls
              >
              > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15173 From: Robert the N. Date: 9/27/2010
              Subject: Mystery wheel sets
              On another list, an acquaintance posted the following:

              I was lookin' at the trucks from a tank car I just purchased from [a] rolling stock sale. It's an old Athearn chemical tank that had
              the "solid version" of Athearn's older roller-bearing truck....

              But I noticed that the wheels are metal. And are CAST. And on a steel
              axle. Like nothing I've EVER seen!

              They even have lettering cast into the faces:
              NMRA RP-25 1966 CLC CAL 133

              I know Uncle Irv's sense of humor... but CLC make me think that
              they're from some other unknown manufacturer. They have a blue-
              lacquer sort of insulation painted on the dead wheel... similar to an
              old Central Valley axle.

              ** end quoted material **

              Any idea who/what made those wheel sets and/or trucks?

              Bob Netzlof
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15174 From: jbark76 Date: 9/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Album Pictures
              Yes, they are pictures of a Nason OO Hudson that I have. After posting the photos, I read that you weren't ready to jump into OO and felt that you might be discouraged about the Hudson.

              The motor in mine is a DC 91 (like in the old Hobbytown E-7 or PA from the 50's). I suspect my engine was either built or modified in the 70's? because it has a transisterized sound unit? in the tender that is sycronized by a disk on the rear driver axle. I believe the running gear and drivers are original, the drive itself seems to have been modified for the DC 91 motor. They offered it in both 2-rail (with insulated drivers on one side) and 3-rail (non-insulated drivers). I think mine is 2-rail, but I haven't tried running it yet.

              It's gonna be big for HO. I'm going to post a photo of it beside an American Flyer Hudson boiler to give you an idea. (I'm also posting a photo of the drive set-up.)

              My plan is to have an HO layout with a loop of OO a few inches in front and below, so that the trains are not parked side-by-side.

              -Jeff B-
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15175 From: jbark76 Date: 9/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Mystery wheel sets
              Just guessing...Cliff Line?
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15176 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 9/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Mystery wheel sets
              Sounds like Kadee wheel sets in Athearn side frames.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 3:50 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery wheel sets

               

              On another list, an acquaintance posted the following:

              I was lookin' at the trucks from a tank car I just purchased from [a] rolling stock sale. It's an old Athearn chemical tank that had
              the "solid version" of Athearn's older roller-bearing truck....

              But I noticed that the wheels are metal. And are CAST. And on a steel
              axle. Like nothing I've EVER seen!

              They even have lettering cast into the faces:
              NMRA RP-25 1966 CLC CAL 133

              I know Uncle Irv's sense of humor... but CLC make me think that
              they're from some other unknown manufacturer. They have a blue-
              lacquer sort of insulation painted on the dead wheel... similar to an
              old Central Valley axle.

              ** end quoted material **

              Any idea who/what made those wheel sets and/or trucks?

              Bob Netzlof

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15177 From: Robert the N. Date: 9/28/2010
              Subject: Further on the mystery wheel sets
              "Patience is a virtue and ought to be cultivated."

              The oiginal poster on that other list posted today:

              I Googled.

              "In spring of 1966, Harry Weiss, owner of The Cliff Line, produced the
              drawing shown here for a new RP-25 - 33-inch freight car wheel with
              a realistic profile on both the face and reverse. [...] The face of the
              wheel incorporated foundry marks reading: NMRA RP-25 1966 CLC
              CAL 133. While the NMRA RP-25 portion of the markings may be
              obvious, the remainder spelled out the year of the design, CLC for
              Cliff Line Corporation, CAL for California and the wheel size - 33-inch.

              "So far as I know this wheel never made it into production. "

              SO... as usual... a proper Googling (I tried yesterday to no avail)
              finds
              the right answer... and leaves one wondering if Our Kind and
              Benevolent Mooderator is All-Knowing, or is simply better at figuring
              out the right phrase to Google than I. In either case, I appear to have
              confirmed the speculation, and gotten a pretty firm answer to my
              question. I'll be able to sleep easy tonight.

              The above info is from:
              http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,1651062

              I cannot look at the referenced drawing because only MEMBERS can
              see pictures on Trainorders. *sigh*

              Someone else DID reply that he has a live sample of such a wheel.

              ** end quoted material **

              "All's well that ends well."

              Bob Netzlof
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15178 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 9/28/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /33in_Wheel_4_28_66.jpg
              Uploaded by : scrimjimmy <jimbartelt@...>
              Description : Cliff Line Wheel Drawing

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/33in_Wheel_4_28_66.jpg

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

              Regards,

              scrimjimmy <jimbartelt@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15179 From: James Bartelt Date: 9/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Further on the mystery wheel sets
              I am a member of Trainorders and have downloaded the picture you reference and have uploaded it to the files section of the group.
               
               

              James Bartelt
              jimbartelt@...


              METRO RR Club
              http://www.metrorrclub.org


              METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2011
              http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html

               




              From: Robert the N. <wb3iqe@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 2:20:12 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Further on the mystery wheel sets

               

              "Patience is a virtue and ought to be cultivated."

              The oiginal poster on that other list posted today:

              I Googled.

              "In spring of 1966, Harry Weiss, owner of The Cliff Line, produced the
              drawing shown here for a new RP-25 - 33-inch freight car wheel with
              a realistic profile on both the face and reverse. [...] The face of the
              wheel incorporated foundry marks reading: NMRA RP-25 1966 CLC
              CAL 133. While the NMRA RP-25 portion of the markings may be
              obvious, the remainder spelled out the year of the design, CLC for
              Cliff Line Corporation, CAL for California and the wheel size - 33-inch.

              "So far as I know this wheel never made it into production. "

              SO... as usual... a proper Googling (I tried yesterday to no avail)
              finds
              the right answer... and leaves one wondering if Our Kind and
              Benevolent Mooderator is All-Knowing, or is simply better at figuring
              out the right phrase to Google than I. In either case, I appear to have
              confirmed the speculation, and gotten a pretty firm answer to my
              question. I'll be able to sleep easy tonight.

              The above info is from:
              http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,1651062

              I cannot look at the referenced drawing because only MEMBERS can
              see pictures on Trainorders. *sigh*

              Someone else DID reply that he has a live sample of such a wheel.

              ** end quoted material **

              "All's well that ends well."

              Bob Netzlof

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15180 From: jim heckard Date: 9/28/2010
              Subject: Cliff Line 33" Freight Car Wheels
              Bob Netzlof,
               
                  I not sure if these pictures and the attached story will help your quest but I thought you might like to see anyway. I'm sorry I don't have a scanner so I sent a light and dark picture of the drawing and I think you will be able to read the attached story.( I can when brought up )
               
                                                           Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15181 From: Walter Bayer Date: 9/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Further on the mystery wheel sets
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15182 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 9/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Mystery Wheelsets



              I wonder if those trucks might be Cape Line... that sounds much the way they do theirs...


              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut®)



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15183 From: Randolph Torres Date: 9/28/2010
              Subject: Railroad books for sale

              Books for SALE:

              American Railroad Radio Frequencies, by Garry Sturm &Mark Landgraf $3.00

              Guide to Tourist Railroads & RR Museums, by George Drury                      $3.00

              American Short line Railway Guide 5th Ed., by Edward Lewis                     $3.00

              American Short line Railway Guide 3rd Ed., by Edward Lewis                    $3.00

              The Monson Railroad, by Roger Whitney                                                        $5.00

              18 Tailor-Made Model RR Track Plans, by John Armstrong                         $2.00

              Ironhorse, Steam Trains of the World byPeter Lorie & Colin Garratt         $5.00

              Train Wreck  by Wesley S. Griswold                                                         $5.00

              Modeling Electrified Railroads  by Paul Schmidt                                                                $5.00

              Model Railroading in Small Spaces by  Mat Chibbaro                                      $3.00

              6 HO Railroads You Can Build by  Model Railroader Magazine                     $3.00

              A Rail Journey Through New England by The 470 Railroad Club                   $3.00

              Two Feet to the Quarries (the Monson RR) by Robert C. Jones                $15.00

               

               

              All books shipped media mail. Pay Pal preferred, but Check, Money Order or Bank Check Accepted. Books will ship after monies clear. Items shipping from Palmer MA. Contact me off group with questions at rmtorres.7901@...

               

               

               

               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15184 From: dickybee2000 Date: 9/28/2010
              Subject: Vintage cars needing identification
              Thank you to those who responded in March regarding a truss rod HO scale boxcar I obtained. It is lettered GN 26274 and the consensus was that it is a Silver Streak kit. I agree, however, the only kit referenced as a truss rod boxcar is a NP kit. I've posted two pictures in a new album titled Dicky Bee's cars.

              I have also posted two pictures of an ATSF reefer given to me by a friend from his father's collection. I can't find the number in any of the archiveal lists although I could have missed it. The reporting marks are, I assume, bogus and should be SFRD. The kit has been ssembled using pre-painted metal sides pinned with little tabs on the bottom. The side ladders, a couple which are broken, seem to be a hard plastic and the running board is a metal casting as are the underframe parts. Who made this kit? One truck is missing and the couplers which were Baker's are gone.

              Now, if the album isn't there, I goofed. I'll try again tomorrow.

              Thanks,
              Dick Berry
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15185 From: Garry Spear Date: 9/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Vintage cars needing identification
              The ATSF reefer is Varney Cat. R-28.

              Garry Spear

              On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 12:03 AM, dickybee2000 <rberry673@...> wrote:
               

              Thank you to those who responded in March regarding a truss rod HO scale boxcar I obtained. It is lettered GN 26274 and the consensus was that it is a Silver Streak kit. I agree, however, the only kit referenced as a truss rod boxcar is a NP kit. I've posted two pictures in a new album titled Dicky Bee's cars.

              I have also posted two pictures of an ATSF reefer given to me by a friend from his father's collection. I can't find the number in any of the archiveal lists although I could have missed it. The reporting marks are, I assume, bogus and should be SFRD. The kit has been ssembled using pre-painted metal sides pinned with little tabs on the bottom. The side ladders, a couple which are broken, seem to be a hard plastic and the running board is a metal casting as are the underframe parts. Who made this kit? One truck is missing and the couplers which were Baker's are gone.

              Now, if the album isn't there, I goofed. I'll try again tomorrow.

              Thanks,
              Dick Berry


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15186 From: Robert the N. Date: 9/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Vintage cars needing identification
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "dickybee2000" <rberry673@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have also posted two pictures of an ATSF reefer given to me by a friend from his father's collection. I can't find the number in any of the archiveal lists although I could have missed it. The reporting marks are, I assume, bogus and should be SFRD. The kit has been ssembled using pre-painted metal sides pinned with little tabs on the bottom. The side ladders, a couple which are broken, seem to be a hard plastic and the running board is a metal casting as are the underframe parts. Who made this kit?

              My money is on Varney. Especially so if the sides and ends are 2 L-shaped pieces hooked together with little tabs on the sides which fit into slots on the ends.

              Bob Netzlof
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15187 From: erieberk Date: 9/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Vintage cars needing identification
              Hello Dick, Yes, your GN 26274 box car is a Silver Streak, as I mentioned back in March. Thanks for the posted pics, which shows the cars even better than what can be described. I note you agree, but on what -- on the fact that it's a Silver Streak or on the fact that the only S.S. Truss Rod boc car is a NP car < g >. Your Silver Streak GN is still not a truss rod car as produced by Silver Streak. The original Pacific HO Silver Streak had this GN car cataloged as their #202 Wood Sheathed Box Car. After Walthers took Silver Streak over, they cataloged it as, I believe, their #217 or #218 GN kit, described as a Double-Sheathed Box Car. The Walthers catalogs during the 1970's clearly shows a photo of it, and its designation, and it's not designated as a truss rod car (Walthers too, shows only the NP as a truss rod car, which they continued from Pacific HO).

              Your ATSF 8152 Reefer is a Varney -- Catalog #R-28; it's the "Super Chief" reefer ("THE ROUTE of the SUPER CHIEF"), which probably has that on the other side of the car (Note: Next time, display the side showing the most information about a car for easier identification). Varney never offered Baker couplers (they came with plastic dummy couplers) with their kits, so perhaps your friend's father installed them. The give-away on Varney metal cars is that there are only two joints for the sides and ends (not four). Each side had a wrap-around end as a one-piece unit as opposed to Athearn, Globe and IMP having two separate sides and two separate ends. The "running board" is described as the Roof Walk. This was one of the earlier cars (first produced in 1950) having a wood floor. In 1952, Varney went to a cast metal floor, then in 1954 he went to a molded plastic floor. Ray



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "dickybee2000" <rberry673@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you to those who responded in March regarding a truss rod HO scale boxcar I obtained. It is lettered GN 26274 and the consensus was that it is a Silver Streak kit. I agree, however, the only kit referenced as a truss rod boxcar is a NP kit. I've posted two pictures in a new album titled Dicky Bee's cars.
              >
              > I have also posted two pictures of an ATSF reefer given to me by a friend from his father's collection. I can't find the number in any of the archiveal lists although I could have missed it. The reporting marks are, I assume, bogus and should be SFRD. The kit has been ssembled using pre-painted metal sides pinned with little tabs on the bottom. The side ladders, a couple which are broken, seem to be a hard plastic and the running board is a metal casting as are the underframe parts. Who made this kit? One truck is missing and the couplers which were Baker's are gone.
              >
              > Now, if the album isn't there, I goofed. I'll try again tomorrow.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Dick Berry
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15188 From: dickybee2000 Date: 9/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Vintage cars needing identification
              Thank you to those who responded. Also thanks for the tip regarding what to photograph. Cameras and I don't always agree so I was thrilled I got the thing to work. After four tries at getting the pictures on to the computer things went well from there.

              The ATSF car does have the side/end wrap with two seams. The floor is wood. That confirms the Varney heritage and vintage. Yes, the builder used Baker couplers of which I now have several packages. I intend to operate the car. It will need new couplers plus new trucks as only one came with it. A couple of ladders need to be replaced and the brake air reservoir is missing. The junk box of parts I received has some of those very items. Otherwise the car is in reasonable shape for its 60 year birthday.

              As for GN 26274, it is of Silver Streak heritage. It must have had the sides cut down to fit the truss rod body of the NP kit. What attracted me was that it wasn't oversize like so many Silver Streak boxcars. Again, I intend to run it. I may be able to salvage the trucks. The couplers will be a problem unless I cut off the narrow coupler pocket to use a regular Kadee or try one of the scale Kadee's instead. Another possibility would be to use a #4. I'm more in favor of finding something to work in the original pocket rather than cut the casting.

              Anyway in both cases I have cars that look pretty good and that can be repaired reasonably. If I remove any original parts I'll keep them in the box so someone else can ponder the same mystery down the road.

              Dick Berry
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15189 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 9/30/2010
              Subject: Wheelsets
              Many suppliers of trucks purchased their wheelsets bulk from Cliff Line. During the late 60s or early 70s (memory fails me) there was a severe shortage of trucks as Cliff Line wheelsets were unavailable. Red Ball (and I presume, therefore, Cape Line) did not create their own wheelsets for their trucks. This all suggests to me that unorthodox trucks COULD be from the period and could include telporary production or potential supplier sample whee;lsets.

              Merrle Rice
              Model RR Warehouse
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15190 From: jim heckard Date: 10/1/2010
              Subject: Conover project
               
               

                    While things a little quiet on the site I thought I would send some pictures and a little update on my Conover 2-10-2 project. Still trying to clean up parts. I have done a lot of filing and grinding already with a lot still to do.
               
                 Hopefully something I have on order from Micro Mark will speed things along in an effort to clean up the sandy pitted like effect on the parts.  Called a Radial Bristle Disk Set it claims it will  sand and polish without ruining intricate detail. Embedded with 3M Cubitron and aluminum oxide grains ( many different grits 80, 220, 400, 6 micron, 1 micron and pumice grit ) these radial bristle disk clean, deburr, sand and polish hard to reach intricate or flat areas. These are little 3/4' spiral shaped disk ( I would call them a little flap wheel like disk ) that you can use one or stacked for getting more area.  I HOPE this will allow me to clean these pieces a little easier in tight areas especially where there is details and not just a flat surface.
               
                  Next will come drilling and tapping holes. A lot of the major parts are held together with small screws plus other holes have to be drilled but nothing on these parts has been pre drilled. Just a little starting hole where to do it. That is next after all parts are cleaned and ready to assemble
               
                 I have had to fill in areas where there are deeper holes or where there is missing casting. While some plans I have say solder  and file I am filling it in with an epoxy. The plans I am using were sent by member Jeff Barker. ( Just like body and fender work ) These are some of the little darker areas you might notice. I am trying to create a piece ( which is missing ) to make a  floor / bottom  for the coal bunker.  The dark area you see there now will not be seen after the piece is put in and the seams for it will be hidden when painted and the coal load put in.
               
                 I have the drivers but have to match / come up with wheel sets for the leading and trailing trucks. Also I must find a suitable set of brass tender trucks. Mantua trucks are very close but I want something in brass.
               
                  Them comes all the detail work that either comes with it or the plans tell you to create. Again Jeff B, THANKS for the plans. A lot to still do. Might be done by Christmas but not sure what year.
               
                                                                   Jim H
               
                                                                 
               
                
               
                                                                      
               
                
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15191 From: Randolph Torres Date: 10/1/2010
              Subject: Items for sale which might interest this group.

              I am not a dealer; let me start off by saying this as some moderators go crazy when I post some of my items for sale. Formerly an HO modeler, but because of eye problems I have to switch to "O" gauge. I have a collection of freight and passenger kits in wood, metal and plastic I am selling. I feel it's too large to take up room in this page. If interested in seeing what I have contact me off line for a list. You can reach me at rmtorres.7901@....

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15192 From: Nelson Date: 10/2/2010
              Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
              I don't know what happened to my first response.

              Gerold, Donald is right on the money. It refers to this beautiful beastie.

              http://www.co614.com/19961998erielimitedphotos.htm

              I went on quite a few of the excursions in the late 90's, and volunteered a on a few trips, too. Even got a cab ride during a runby.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@...> wrote:

              > Hi Nelson,
              >
              > only now noticed your email address "Greenbriar614...." is this related
              > to the Greenbriar (Corvair) Van of the early sixties?? there was a
              > version with 164 CID engine - numbers that also show up in your
              > address.. ... too much coincidence not to ask.
              >
              > Gerold
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15193 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/2/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              Gary,
               
              It would have been impossible for the seller to end the auction at the last minute. I have been selling for almost 6 years now and have NEVER been able to end an auction within the last 12 hours. As far as I know, this has always been their policy. Not sure what happened to you, but it could not have been at the last minute. At least not within the last decade.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 12:17:39 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong

               

              Hi Gary W., One would have thought he would have waited a while before relisting it. I guess the saying, "No honor among theives" would apply with that one, LOL! W. Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Jay,
              >
              > I had something similar happen to me a few years ago on ebay, I was bidding on
              > an All Nation boxcar, I held that bid on it till the last minute, then suddenly
              > while I was refreshing the page to see if anyone else was bidding on it, the
              > auction was ended suddenly by the  seller due to the picture not showing up, the
              > picture was showing up just fine,he just wasn't going to sell that boxcar for
              > $10 was his problem, he relisted it the next day.
              >
              > Gary W
              >
              >
              >  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to
              > answer life's two most important questions!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:10:07 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong
              >
              >  
              > Hi Jim,
              >
              > Fortunately this sort of thing does not happen too often, but I have had it
              > happen to me years ago and now usually "mark" anything I'm interested in with a
              > minimal early bid of my own, particularly if it is with a seller I have had no
              > experience with. Still no guarantee that it will not be pulled, but the seller
              > might have some additional explaining to do.
              >
              >
              > The strangest situation I have had is when a seller listed the same item I was
              > biding on a second time before the first listing closed and then tried to cancel
              > the first sale I won fairly, due to non payment, which I had sent. I did finally
              > persuade him to complete the sale without a strike against me and void the
              > second sale before it closed and received the item. To this day, do not know if
              > the clearly unhappy man was either dishonest, simply confused or following his
              > mate's orders, the latter of which I suspect may have been the case!
              >
              >
              > Jay
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Tod,
              > >
              > > Thanks. I just learned this rule myself about 10 minutes ago.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Riverboy
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:39 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jim,
              > >
              > > I've been a buyer and seller ( ohioboys2000 ) on eBay for ten years. To my
              > >understanding, the only time you can't retract bids end an auction is when there
              > >is less than 12 hours left to go. Other than that, the seller can end it early
              > >for numerous reasons.
              > >
              > > I hope this helps.
              > >
              > > Tod
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- On Sun, 9/19/10, jim heckard <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@>
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > > George F,
              > >
              > > I didn't bid since there was already one bid on the item which from my
              > >understanding does not allow seller to pull bid even if listed wrong. I'm sure
              > >seller was offered more money to pull the item early then what is shown as the
              > >winning bid which is baloney. I won't complain to eBay because I want to be 100%
              > >sure of what I originally read.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: George Frey
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:46 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do
              > >either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the
              > >seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
              > >
              > > George Frey
              > > Proud member of
              > > 1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@>
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something
              > >wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to
              > >especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item
              > ># 230528003580 HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car. It already had 1 bid listed
              > >and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a
              > >bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid
              > >at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P
              > >stands for Fifty Years Of Progress to celebrate AF.
              > >
              > > I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise
              > >that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              > > It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little
              > >hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
              > >
              > > Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else
              > >seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
              > >
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15194 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/2/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              Hi Sean,
               
              Well, it happened, and it did happen in the last minute, I didn't think it was possible either, however, I guess its just like everything else, its not necessarily who you know, but who --- ----! I do know of some of these power sellers who had some amazing software to work with, (for the time), and this did happen back in the late 90's, when ebay and everything else on the internet was still quite new...
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 12:23:40 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong

               

              Gary,
               
              It would have been impossible for the seller to end the auction at the last minute. I have been selling for almost 6 years now and have NEVER been able to end an auction within the last 12 hours. As far as I know, this has always been their policy. Not sure what happened to you, but it could not have been at the last minute. At least not within the last decade.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 12:17:39 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong

               

              Hi Gary W., One would have thought he would have waited a while before relisting it. I guess the saying, "No honor among theives" would apply with that one, LOL! W. Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Jay,
              >
              > I had something similar happen to me a few years ago on ebay, I was bidding on
              > an All Nation boxcar, I held that bid on it till the last minute, then suddenly
              > while I was refreshing the page to see if anyone else was bidding on it, the
              > auction was ended suddenly by the  seller due to the picture not showing up, the
              > picture was showing up just fine,he just wasn't going to sell that boxcar for
              > $10 was his problem, he relisted it the next day.
              >
              > Gary W
              >
              >
              >  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to
              > answer life's two most important questions!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:10:07 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong
              >
              >  
              > Hi Jim,
              >
              > Fortunately this sort of thing does not happen too often, but I have had it
              > happen to me years ago and now usually "mark" anything I'm interested in with a
              > minimal early bid of my own, particularly if it is with a seller I have had no
              > experience with. Still no guarantee that it will not be pulled, but the seller
              > might have some additional explaining to do.
              >
              >
              > The strangest situation I have had is when a seller listed the same item I was
              > biding on a second time before the first listing closed and then tried to cancel
              > the first sale I won fairly, due to non payment, which I had sent. I did finally
              > persuade him to complete the sale without a strike against me and void the
              > second sale before it closed and received the item. To this day, do not know if
              > the clearly unhappy man was either dishonest, simply confused or following his
              > mate's orders, the latter of which I suspect may have been the case!
              >
              >
              > Jay
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Tod,
              > >
              > > Thanks. I just learned this rule myself about 10 minutes ago.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Riverboy
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:39 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jim,
              > >
              > > I've been a buyer and seller ( ohioboys2000 ) on eBay for ten years. To my
              > >understanding, the only time you can't retract bids end an auction is when there
              > >is less than 12 hours left to go. Other than that, the seller can end it early
              > >for numerous reasons.
              > >
              > > I hope this helps.
              > >
              > > Tod
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- On Sun, 9/19/10, jim heckard <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@>
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > > George F,
              > >
              > > I didn't bid since there was already one bid on the item which from my
              > >understanding does not allow seller to pull bid even if listed wrong. I'm sure
              > >seller was offered more money to pull the item early then what is shown as the
              > >winning bid which is baloney. I won't complain to eBay because I want to be 100%
              > >sure of what I originally read.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: George Frey
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:46 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do
              > >either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the
              > >seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
              > >
              > > George Frey
              > > Proud member of
              > > 1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@>
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something
              > >wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to
              > >especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item
              > ># 230528003580 HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car. It already had 1 bid listed
              > >and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a
              > >bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid
              > >at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P
              > >stands for Fifty Years Of Progress to celebrate AF.
              > >
              > > I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise
              > >that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              > > It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little
              > >hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
              > >
              > > Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else
              > >seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
              > >
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15195 From: hooligan Date: 10/2/2010
              Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
              Thanks for sharing Nelson . That's a great look at one of Lima's and C&O's finest locos . Great gallery and a fine link ! HH

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > I don't know what happened to my first response.
              >
              > Gerold, Donald is right on the money. It refers to this beautiful beastie.
              >
              > http://www.co614.com/19961998erielimitedphotos.htm
              >
              > I went on quite a few of the excursions in the late 90's, and volunteered a on a few trips, too. Even got a cab ride during a runby.
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gerold Eckl <corv8@> wrote:
              >
              > > Hi Nelson,
              > >
              > > only now noticed your email address "Greenbriar614...." is this related
              > > to the Greenbriar (Corvair) Van of the early sixties?? there was a
              > > version with 164 CID engine - numbers that also show up in your
              > > address.. ... too much coincidence not to ask.
              > >
              > > Gerold
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15196 From: George Frey Date: 10/2/2010
              Subject: Re: something wrong
              ok what happened? did I miss something did the world come to an end?
               

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group                                                  

               




              From: Gary Woodard <betsy662@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, October 2, 2010 12:36:05 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong

               

              Hi Sean,
               
              Well, it happened, and it did happen in the last minute, I didn't think it was possible either, however, I guess its just like everything else, its not necessarily who you know, but who --- ----! I do know of some of these power sellers who had some amazing software to work with, (for the time), and this did happen back in the late 90's, when ebay and everything else on the internet was still quite new...
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 12:23:40 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong

               

              Gary,
               
              It would have been impossible for the seller to end the auction at the last minute. I have been selling for almost 6 years now and have NEVER been able to end an auction within the last 12 hours. As far as I know, this has always been their policy. Not sure what happened to you, but it could not have been at the last minute. At least not within the last decade.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 12:17:39 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong

               

              Hi Gary W., One would have thought he would have waited a while before relisting it. I guess the saying, "No honor among theives" would apply with that one, LOL! W. Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Gary Woodard <betsy662@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Jay,
              >
              > I had something similar happen to me a few years ago on ebay, I was bidding on
              > an All Nation boxcar, I held that bid on it till the last minute, then suddenly
              > while I was refreshing the page to see if anyone else was bidding on it, the
              > auction was ended suddenly by the  seller due to the picture not showing up, the
              > picture was showing up just fine,he just wasn't going to sell that boxcar for
              > $10 was his problem, he relisted it the next day.
              >
              > Gary W
              >
              >
              >  Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to
              > answer life's two most important questions!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: the_plainsman <the_plainsman@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, September 20, 2010 7:10:07 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something wrong
              >
              >  
              > Hi Jim,
              >
              > Fortunately this sort of thing does not happen too often, but I have had it
              > happen to me years ago and now usually "mark" anything I'm interested in with a
              > minimal early bid of my own, particularly if it is with a seller I have had no
              > experience with. Still no guarantee that it will not be pulled, but the seller
              > might have some additional explaining to do.
              >
              >
              > The strangest situation I have had is when a seller listed the same item I was
              > biding on a second time before the first listing closed and then tried to cancel
              > the first sale I won fairly, due to non payment, which I had sent. I did finally
              > persuade him to complete the sale without a strike against me and void the
              > second sale before it closed and received the item. To this day, do not know if
              > the clearly unhappy man was either dishonest, simply confused or following his
              > mate's orders, the latter of which I suspect may have been the case!
              >
              >
              > Jay
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Tod,
              > >
              > > Thanks. I just learned this rule myself about 10 minutes ago.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Riverboy
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 6:39 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jim,
              > >
              > > I've been a buyer and seller ( ohioboys2000 ) on eBay for ten years. To my
              > >understanding, the only time you can't retract bids end an auction is when there
              > >is less than 12 hours left to go. Other than that, the seller can end it early
              > >for numerous reasons.
              > >
              > > I hope this helps.
              > >
              > > Tod
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- On Sun, 9/19/10, jim heckard <jimheck@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@>
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > > George F,
              > >
              > > I didn't bid since there was already one bid on the item which from my
              > >understanding does not allow seller to pull bid even if listed wrong. I'm sure
              > >seller was offered more money to pull the item early then what is shown as the
              > >winning bid which is baloney. I won't complain to eBay because I want to be 100%
              > >sure of what I originally read.
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: George Frey
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 5:46 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > jim i think you should have bid on it when you first saw it, thats what i do
              > >either that or the winer contacted the seller and offered him the amount and the
              > >seler acepted it and ended the auction early.
              > >
              > > George Frey
              > > Proud member of
              > > 1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > > From: jim heckard <jimheck@>
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sun, September 19, 2010 2:19:19 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] something wrong
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I am either seeing things or going out of my mind. I really think something
              > >wrong happened on eBay. Every morning I check under "newly listed" items to
              > >especially watch for Buy It Now. This morning checking under Mantua I found item
              > ># 230528003580 HO Mantua Locomotive and Coal Car. It already had 1 bid listed
              > >and was a 7 day auction and was not a Buy It Now item. I was glad there was a
              > >bid already so seller could not pull the item. I intended to follow it and bid
              > >at the end. It is a Mantua made engine that was sold by American Flyer. The FY&P
              > >stands for Fifty Years Of Progress to celebrate AF.
              > >
              > > I just went back in to check that the number is correct. Imagine my surprise
              > >that the bidding had ended at $26.00 after two bids.
              > > It is worth "slightly" more then that and hard to come by. I think a little
              > >hanky panky took place unless I read facts wrong.
              > >
              > > Sean N had you seen this listed this morning. I was wondering had anyone else
              > >seen this item or maybe was the first bidder ?
              > >
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              >




              Group: vintageHO Message: 15197 From: Nelson Date: 10/3/2010
              Subject: Re: 1 Geared Wheel Set .... - question to Nelson, off topic
              Hi Gerold,

              No, it refers to this big beastie:

              http://www.co614.com/19961998erielimitedphotos.htm

              I went on many of the excursions, and worked as a volunteer on a few trips. Even got a runby cab ride.

              Nelson

              > Hi Nelson,
              >
              > only now noticed your email address "Greenbriar614...." is this related
              > to the Greenbriar (Corvair) Van of the early sixties?? there was a
              > version with 164 CID engine - numbers that also show up in your
              > address.. ... too much coincidence not to ask.
              >
              > Gerold
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15198 From: Don Hud Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: eBay question about reserves
              It seems like lately I have seen a lot of the type of items I look for on eBay, for sale with a reserve. Why do sellers do this? Buyers seem to avoid auctions that have a reserve. Too many unknowns. They are often a waste of the buyers time playing the game of trying to bid it up, hoping someone will counter bid until you finally hit the sellers unknown reserve. And often they end up with no one makeing the reserve level and the whole thing was just a big waste of everyones time. That gets old real quick.

              Almost never do the sellers reveal the amount of the reserve, but sometimes they do. What is the risk to the seller if everyone knows what they have set as the reserve. If the sellers wants to make sure that they get a minimum amount for the item, what is the difference in just setting the starting bid at that amount? Does the high starting price scare buyers away. Does a low starting price and a revealed high reserve price also scare off the bargain hunters.

              I'm not sure what is behind what seems like a recent trend toward setting reserves on auctions, but to me, they just don't work.

              Don Huddleston
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15199 From: jbark76 Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              I think it is a ploy to lure people in, but I agree that they will likely just be frustrated by the reserve. As a rule, I don't bid on anything with a reserve, with rare exception. I never list anything with a reserve; to encourage bidding I start at the lowest price I can accept. -Jeff-
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15200 From: Robert Karnisky Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: eBay question about reserves
              --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Don Hud <don_hud@...> wrote:
               
              "It seems like lately I have seen a lot of the type of items I look for on eBay, for sale with a reserve.  Why do sellers do this?"
               
              Low opening bids attract more bidders than similar items with higher opening bids. Of course, no one wants to sell their item low, but getting a few bids early in the auction also tends to attract more serious bidders who are willing to pay a more reasonable price. I'm a veteran eBayer and I don't like using reserves, but for expensive items it makes sense. If I simply cannot sell an item for less than X, but making X the opening bid seems exorbitant, setting a reserve bridges the gap. Remember that the motivated bidders that sellers really need to reach aren't necessarily online every week.

              Almost never do the sellers reveal the amount of the reserve, but sometimes they do.  What is the risk to the seller if everyone knows what they have set as the reserve.  If the sellers wants to make sure that they get a minimum amount for the item, what is the difference in just setting the starting bid at that amount?  Does the high starting price scare buyers away.  Does a low starting price and a revealed high reserve price also scare off the bargain hunters.
               
              I don't know why sellers tell their potential bidders what the reserve is - seems self-defeating to me. Maybe an attempt to have their cake and eat it, too, as if to play Mr. Nice Guy but screw people over at the same time.

              I'm not sure what is behind what seems like a recent trend toward setting reserves on auctions, but to me, they just don't work."
               
              It's probably not a "recent trend" so much as luck of the draw. Ever play card games? It takes a lot of hands, hundreds of thousands, to approximate statistical probabilities.
               
              - Rob Karnisky

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15201 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              I am a seller as well and if I may chime in here...
               
              I am not sure, but I doubt it is any type of ploy. I myself have changed my selling technique ver the past year or so. The current economy has required it. Previously I used to start any and all of my items off at $0.99 and let them ride, but lately, there are far fewer buyers out there and selling engines and such for a fraction of what I had in them forced me to do the same, start an item off at the bare minimum I would b willing to sell it for. If it does not sell, I then decide to relist it lower or just keep it.
               
              Reserves, I find are for those who know very little or think they know mor than I (or we) do about what they have and are trying to squeese out every penny of an auction. I have noticed a pretty large number of reserve listings, not sure if is on the rise though. I rarely bid on them as well as I hate to compete against the unknown. I find it funny the gius that will put a reserve on a Mantua 0-4-0 shifter and have the reserve met at ~$15 or so. It cost ~$2 for the reserv, so why bother on the low value items???
               
              I have very rarely used them and have almost never had sucess with them when I have. I rather use a buy-it-now with the option of a best offer. I have one MEW brass logging crane listed this way and have had it up for at least a year now. I have an asking price of $200 for the complete unit. I think that is fair given how rare it is and also considering I sold one in the same condition two years ago for almost $350. It looks just fine on my shelf in the meantime.
               
              Even the buy-it-nows are risky if you do not know what you have. Last week a guy sold a Varney Super Pacific for ~$25 as a buy it now. swapmonster picked it up...that lucky son of a gun Jim!
               
              Sean

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jbark76 <jbark76@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 1:22:53 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: eBay question about reserves

               


              I think it is a ploy to lure people in, but I agree that they will likely just be frustrated by the reserve. As a rule, I don't bid on anything with a reserve, with rare exception. I never list anything with a reserve; to encourage bidding I start at the lowest price I can accept. -Jeff-


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15202 From: trainliker Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              I also tend not to bid on anything with a reserve. But, then again, I'm trying to get things at far less than they are worth.

              Some sellers don't want to risk selling things for far less than they are worth, therefore, the reserve. They just aren't interested in "giving it away. And this is the very standard auction protection against this. And if it doesn't sell, maybe it gets relisted with a lower reserve.

              True, they could just start it at the reserve price and leave it at that. But such a high starting bid also makes people balk and walk. It is usually better if you can get people to at least start saying "yes" to at least some bid price. There is value in getting some "action" and when other potential bidders see the "action" they are far more likely to join in.

              Anybody who has done a lot of ebay transactions has no doubt seen bidding "wars" between two people. This is just the sort of emotional action that live auctions thrive on. Why people do this in a timed auction, I'll never know. But they do. (I once sold a Lucius Beebe book that you could buy pretty easily here and there for about $250 for $700 because two guys were playing "quien es mas macho" in their bidding.)

              But you will see some that do opt for listing a starting bid that quite high and probably tacitly is a reserve in the seller's mind. You often see one bid sitting there which may represent that one person that's just got to have it.

              Also, the ebay fee structure charges more for higher starting bids. But they also charge extra if you set a reserve. So sellers also consider this. That's why you so often see extremely low starting bids. The insertion fee is lowest that way.

              I don't much care how a seller lists something. Because I am entirely free to bid, or not. It's sort of a capitalism thing, I guess.

              Chuck Kinzer

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jbark76" <jbark76@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I think it is a ploy to lure people in, but I agree that they will likely just be frustrated by the reserve. As a rule, I don't bid on anything with a reserve, with rare exception. I never list anything with a reserve; to encourage bidding I start at the lowest price I can accept. -Jeff-
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15203 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves

              Don,

               

              I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items.  I at least once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have been close enough for the seller to offer to sell it.  So if you do not bid, you have no chance.

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Hud
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 1:06 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

               

               

              It seems like lately I have seen a lot of the type of items I look for on eBay, for sale with a reserve. Why do sellers do this? Buyers seem to avoid auctions that have a reserve. Too many unknowns. They are often a waste of the buyers time playing the game of trying to bid it up, hoping someone will counter bid until you finally hit the sellers unknown reserve. And often they end up with no one makeing the reserve level and the whole thing was just a big waste of everyones time. That gets old real quick.

              Almost never do the sellers reveal the amount of the reserve, but sometimes they do. What is the risk to the seller if everyone knows what they have set as the reserve. If the sellers wants to make sure that they get a minimum amount for the item, what is the difference in just setting the starting bid at that amount? Does the high starting price scare buyers away. Does a low starting price and a revealed high reserve price also scare off the bargain hunters.

              I'm not sure what is behind what seems like a recent trend toward setting reserves on auctions, but to me, they just don't work.

              Don Huddleston

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15204 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              People seem to make ebay a lot more complex than it is. I ask myself two questions: 1. do I want this item? 2. If yes, then what is the maximum amount of money am I willing to spend for it? That is the amount I bid. If it doesn't meet the reserve, then the seller wants more for it than I'm willing to pay ... oh well. This means that I don't have to sit by the computer waiting for the last second to try to outbid someone else who is sitting by the computer waiting for the last second to outbid me. I bid my max ... if I get it great .... if I don't then I'll bid on the next item. No hassle.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 4:14 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

               

              Don,

              I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items.  I at least once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have been close enough for the seller to offer to sell it.  So if you do not bid, you have no chance.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Don Hud
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 1:06 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

               

              It seems like lately I have seen a lot of the type of items I look for on eBay, for sale with a reserve. Why do sellers do this? Buyers seem to avoid auctions that have a reserve. Too many unknowns. They are often a waste of the buyers time playing the game of trying to bid it up, hoping someone will counter bid until you finally hit the sellers unknown reserve. And often they end up with no one makeing the reserve level and the whole thing was just a big waste of everyones time. That gets old real quick.

              Almost never do the sellers reveal the amount of the reserve, but sometimes they do. What is the risk to the seller if everyone knows what they have set as the reserve. If the sellers wants to make sure that they get a minimum amount for the item, what is the difference in just setting the starting bid at that amount? Does the high starting price scare buyers away. Does a low starting price and a revealed high reserve price also scare off the bargain hunters.

              I'm not sure what is behind what seems like a recent trend toward setting reserves on auctions, but to me, they just don't work.

              Don Huddleston

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15205 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              It's auction psychology, just like at a live auction in which the auctioneer will start the bidding at a low price, although he knows there is a reserve, and try to get the bidders motivated. Furthermore, at a live auction the auctioneer usually has the option to declare a no-sale, whether or not there is a reserve, if, in his judgment, the high bid just does not reflect the the true value of the item. Ever watch any "Cash in the Attic"

              When selling some old brass trains on the bay a few years ago, I usually used a reserve. A couple of times when I didn't, I regretted it. And, yes, I still have some items that did not meet the reserve. Someday I may put them out again. Then again, who knows.

              On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:
               

              Don,

               

              I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items.  I at least once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have been close enough for the seller to offer to sell it.  So if you do not bid, you have no chance.

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Hud
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 1:06 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

               

               

              It seems like lately I have seen a lot of the type of items I look for on eBay, for sale with a reserve. Why do sellers do this? Buyers seem to avoid auctions that have a reserve. Too many unknowns. They are often a waste of the buyers time playing the game of trying to bid it up, hoping someone will counter bid until you finally hit the sellers unknown reserve. And often they end up with no one makeing the reserve level and the whole thing was just a big waste of everyones time. That gets old real quick.

              Almost never do the sellers reveal the amount of the reserve, but sometimes they do. What is the risk to the seller if everyone knows what they have set as the reserve. If the sellers wants to make sure that they get a minimum amount for the item, what is the difference in just setting the starting bid at that amount? Does the high starting price scare buyers away. Does a low starting price and a revealed high reserve price also scare off the bargain hunters.

              I'm not sure what is behind what seems like a recent trend toward setting reserves on auctions, but to me, they just don't work.

              Don Huddleston




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15206 From: John H Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              In reality, Steve has the right idea as a buyer. There are some guys whose ads I have come to recognize and have reserves that are too high for the product being sold. Them I ignore. But on others, I bid what I feel I want and it works or not. No big deal.

              As a seller (which I haven't done in a while) I have used reserves on some items of value (over $300.00 0r so). Asking too big a starting price puts potential buyers off, way off. A reasonable starting price and a reasonable reserve can work quite well.

              I see so much stuff with starting prices near to what the items are (or were) available for retail. Unless the item is something that sold out very fast and is much in demand this is a waste. Seven day items are sitting there with 2 hours left. I add some of these to my "Watch" list to see if they actually sell. Most of the ones I consider too high do not. Same thing with high reserve's. I have on occasion put in bids on items with reserves that are a bit of a stretch for me just to prove to myself that the reserve is too high. And so far, I haven't had to spend any of my stretched funds.

              Reasonable starting price and reasonable reserves of higher value items seems to work best.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
              >
              > People seem to make ebay a lot more complex than it is. I ask myself two questions: 1. do I want this item? 2. If yes, then what is the maximum amount of money am I willing to spend for it? That is the amount I bid. If it doesn't meet the reserve, then the seller wants more for it than I'm willing to pay ... oh well. This means that I don't have to sit by the computer waiting for the last second to try to outbid someone else who is sitting by the computer waiting for the last second to outbid me. I bid my max ... if I get it great .... if I don't then I'll bid on the next item. No hassle.
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15207 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Parts
              I have a Revell F-7, nice unit...missing one geared driver, complete.
              How in the world the driver is gone, and the plate is still attached, I have no idea.
              But, I need a driver set for it.
              I have lots of loose diseasemal drivers, nothing close.

              Also, what type of drive belt did they use (single ended drive)?

              Was this a spring or an o-ring, and if an o-ring, anybody know the size?
              I can trial fit a dozen to come up with one, but figured someone would know.

              Thanks.
              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15208 From: John H Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              Sean, A bit off subject but I'm trying to bid on your diecast Mantua Shifter cab but I can't figure out how to enter "A buck three-eighty" into the box.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > I am a seller as well and if I may chime in here...
              >
              > I am not sure, but I doubt it is any type of ploy. I myself have changed my
              > selling technique ver the past year or so. The current economy has required it.
              > Previously I used to start any and all of my items off at $0.99 and let them
              > ride, but lately, there are far fewer buyers out there and selling engines and
              > such for a fraction of what I had in them forced me to do the same, start an
              > item off at the bare minimum I would b willing to sell it for. If it does not
              > sell, I then decide to relist it lower or just keep it.
              >
              >
              > Reserves, I find are for those who know very little or think they know mor than
              > I (or we) do about what they have and are trying to squeese out every penny of
              > an auction. I have noticed a pretty large number of reserve listings, not sure
              > if is on the rise though. I rarely bid on them as well as I hate to compete
              > against the unknown. I find it funny the gius that will put a reserve on a
              > Mantua 0-4-0 shifter and have the reserve met at ~$15 or so. It cost ~$2 for the
              > reserv, so why bother on the low value items???
              >
              > I have very rarely used them and have almost never had sucess with them when I
              > have. I rather use a buy-it-now with the option of a best offer. I have one MEW
              > brass logging crane listed this way and have had it up for at least a year now.
              > I have an asking price of $200 for the complete unit. I think that is fair given
              > how rare it is and also considering I sold one in the same condition two years
              > ago for almost $350. It looks just fine on my shelf in the meantime.
              >
              > Even the buy-it-nows are risky if you do not know what you have. Last week a guy
              > sold a Varney Super Pacific for ~$25 as a buy it now. swapmonster picked it
              > up...that lucky son of a gun Jim!
              >
              > Sean
              >
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: jbark76 <jbark76@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 1:22:53 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: eBay question about reserves
              >
              >  
              >
              > I think it is a ploy to lure people in, but I agree that they will likely just
              > be frustrated by the reserve. As a rule, I don't bid on anything with a reserve,
              > with rare exception. I never list anything with a reserve; to encourage bidding
              > I start at the lowest price I can accept. -Jeff-
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15209 From: Don Hud Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              Thanks for the perspective on reserve auctions. I think I understand better the reason sellers use them, but I just often find them frustrating as a buyer. I still will bid on a reserve auction if it is something I really want but also pass on many of them that I just don't want to waste my time on trying to find out if the reserve is what I would consider reasonable.

              But I just have never had very good luck with auctions that carry a reserve price it is often a turn off when I see one.

              Don

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > In reality, Steve has the right idea as a buyer. There are some guys whose ads I have come to recognize and have reserves that are too high for the product being sold. Them I ignore. But on others, I bid what I feel I want and it works or not. No big deal.
              >
              > As a seller (which I haven't done in a while) I have used reserves on some items of value (over $300.00 0r so). Asking too big a starting price puts potential buyers off, way off. A reasonable starting price and a reasonable reserve can work quite well.
              >
              > I see so much stuff with starting prices near to what the items are (or were) available for retail. Unless the item is something that sold out very fast and is much in demand this is a waste. Seven day items are sitting there with 2 hours left. I add some of these to my "Watch" list to see if they actually sell. Most of the ones I consider too high do not. Same thing with high reserve's. I have on occasion put in bids on items with reserves that are a bit of a stretch for me just to prove to myself that the reserve is too high. And so far, I haven't had to spend any of my stretched funds.
              >
              > Reasonable starting price and reasonable reserves of higher value items seems to work best.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> wrote:
              > >
              > > People seem to make ebay a lot more complex than it is. I ask myself two questions: 1. do I want this item? 2. If yes, then what is the maximum amount of money am I willing to spend for it? That is the amount I bid. If it doesn't meet the reserve, then the seller wants more for it than I'm willing to pay ... oh well. This means that I don't have to sit by the computer waiting for the last second to try to outbid someone else who is sitting by the computer waiting for the last second to outbid me. I bid my max ... if I get it great .... if I don't then I'll bid on the next item. No hassle.
              > >
              > > Steve W.
              > > www.prrh.org
              > > www.marx-trains.com
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15210 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Varney question(s)
              I have a whole bunch of what appears to be Varney freight cars.
              I say appears, as most are in original boxes (altho partially assembled), and what is in most boxes matches the ends.
              However.
              Every one is embossed cardboard and wood.
              Looks like Megow or something.

              Blatz Beer Reefer road number 23104 (box says R-11), PFE Reefer road number 41520 (box says R-17), IC Reefer road number 50200 (box says R-16), C&NW auto box road number 51998 (box says B-28)SP Overnight Box, road number 9134, no box, GN metal overlay flatcar (no box) road number 67203, Union Reefer road number 9134 (no box) C&NW Cardboard and wood flat, road number 4259 space 1, and some kind of work car, box car shaped, no name, windows on sides one end, windows in ends.

              Looking at HOSeeker, the catalogs list the Blatz car, but before we get to numbers high enough in series, they seem to have gone to brass or metal.
              Are these war-babies?

              Varnet trucks on all, Varney choppers on some, Mantua on the rest for couplers.

              Thanks.
              Dave

              (oh, and when did Varney start putting stock nubers (like B-50) on the sides of the cars?)
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15211 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:14 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves


              > Don,
              >
              >
              >
              > I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items. I at least
              > once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have been
              > close enough for the seller to offer to sell it. So if you do not bid,
              > you
              > have no chance.
              >
              >
              >
              > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
              > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
              >
              >
              >
              > _____

              I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.

              On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what the
              set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I wanted
              it, so I took it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15212 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney question(s)
              I think the metal overlay GN flat is Varney:
              http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1941pg30.jpg
              Hard to read it, but I think so.
              Blatz, Union and PFE are there, but the numbers don't all match the boxes thhey're in. (my PFE box says R-17, the catalog says R-4).
              Wish I could read the road numbers.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have a whole bunch of what appears to be Varney freight cars.
              > I say appears, as most are in original boxes (altho partially assembled), and what is in most boxes matches the ends.
              > However.
              > Every one is embossed cardboard and wood.
              > Looks like Megow or something.
              >
              > Blatz Beer Reefer road number 23104 (box says R-11), PFE Reefer road number 41520 (box says R-17), IC Reefer road number 50200 (box says R-16), C&NW auto box road number 51998 (box says B-28)SP Overnight Box, road number 9134, no box, GN metal overlay flatcar (no box) road number 67203, Union Reefer road number 9134 (no box) C&NW Cardboard and wood flat, road number 4259 space 1, and some kind of work car, box car shaped, no name, windows on sides one end, windows in ends.
              >
              > Looking at HOSeeker, the catalogs list the Blatz car, but before we get to numbers high enough in series, they seem to have gone to brass or metal.
              > Are these war-babies?
              >
              > Varnet trucks on all, Varney choppers on some, Mantua on the rest for couplers.
              >
              > Thanks.
              > Dave
              >
              > (oh, and when did Varney start putting stock nubers (like B-50) on the sides of the cars?)
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15213 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              Ah, yes, but what was the shipping? I always figure the shipping as part of the purchase price. I once bid $6.00 for a car I could buy in a store for $8.00. I thought that was great, I saved $2.00! But then I realized with the shipping of $4.95, I paid $10.95 for the same $8.00 car! Remember that shipping!!!!
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 10:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.

              On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what the
              set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I wanted
              it, so I took it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15214 From: Fred Krause Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              I have been watching this series of postings since it started.  I'm a dealer so please allow me to lay out some of the facts for you guys.  I think all of you would agree that anyone in busines is entitled to make a fair profit
               
              I have a store front and a web site.  Maybe you have a shop close to you, maybe not.  But this is the reality.  It cost money to keep a shop open, Rent, taxes utilities etc.  Then we have to stock the store we invest thousands of dollars in part, kits odds and ends to serve our customers.  Some items will sit for months before someone will purchase them, and 9 times out of 10 we'll hear "Is That your best price?" depending on my customer I'll discount it some.
               
              IF you are on the web in addition to a store front most dealers are 20% off the retail price.
              that just where prices are to be competative.
               
              Now Lets look at ebay.  Ebay charges you first to list the item, about 2% of the listing price, if the listing person has a reserve price the add another 2% plus there is a charge for each additional picture I think it 15 cent a photo.  OK the items sells then ebay takes about 4% of the sale price.  If the buyer uses PayPal thats another 4%.
               
              So that $8 dollars item maybe netted that seller.  Lets assume the seller is a dealer.  He buys the item at 40% off the retail price. his cost is $4.80.
               
              Now he lists it for $6.00 dollars Thats 25% off the retail price.
               
              ON EBAY       $6.00                          At your local Shop    $ 8.00
              Listing Fee         .12                          Cost of the Item        $ 4.80
              Selling Fee         .24                          Potential Gross        $ 3.20          
              Paypal Fee         .24                         Rent 20%                     .64
              Gross Profit.     5.40                          Taxes 32%              $ 1.02 
              Cost of Item      4.80                          Shipping Cost          $   .20 
              Net Profit           .60 Cents or 2.88%   Utilities                    $   32
                                                                      Net Profit                 $ 1.02  or 27% Profit .
               
              Dont forget regarless if you bought the item in a shop or on line that person paid shipping costs also. Now if your store is more than 10 miles away from your home dont forget you are spending travel time that you could be working on your hobby and gas to run your car.
               
              So lets be fair.  We have to move alot of boxes to make a living, we do for lots a reasons, one of course is a love of the hobby.
               
               
              --- On Sat, 10/9/10, My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:

              From: My-Yahoo-Groups <yahoo-groups@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, October 9, 2010, 9:24 AM

               
              Ah, yes, but what was the shipping? I always figure the shipping as part of the purchase price. I once bid $6.00 for a car I could buy in a store for $8.00. I thought that was great, I saved $2.00! But then I realized with the shipping of $4.95, I paid $10.95 for the same $8.00 car! Remember that shipping!!!!
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 10:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.

              On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what the
              set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I wanted
              it, so I took it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15215 From: George Frey Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: reserve feesE-bay
              if you don't like the E-bay fees try this site http://www.bonanza.com/%c2%a0click on
              register on the top left, set up a store  (booth) and sell there are no
              listing fees and very small seller fees( better then E-bay) and they allow you
              to chose what forms of payment to want to accept. they are about 100% better
              then Evil bay.
               

               

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo
              Group                                                  
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15216 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: reserve feesE-bay
              All these alternate sites are fine, but they still have about 1/10 of 1% the
              customer base of eBay.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:41 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: reserve feesE-bay


              if you don't like the E-bay fees try this site http://www.bonanza.com/ click
              on
              register on the top left, set up a store (booth) and sell there are no
              listing fees and very small seller fees( better then E-bay) and they allow
              you
              to chose what forms of payment to want to accept. they are about 100% better
              then Evil bay.




              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo
              Group





              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15217 From: George Frey Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: reserve feesE-bay
              true but E-bay didn't just burst on the seen with a customer base of say 50000,00000 did  they they Had to START SOMEWHERE!!!!!!!!!
               

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group                                                  

               




              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 1:10:35 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: reserve feesE-bay

               

              All these alternate sites are fine, but they still have about 1/10 of 1% the
              customer base of eBay.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:41 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: reserve feesE-bay

              if you don't like the E-bay fees try this site http://www.bonanza.com/ click
              on
              register on the top left, set up a store (booth) and sell there are no
              listing fees and very small seller fees( better then E-bay) and they allow
              you
              to chose what forms of payment to want to accept. they are about 100% better
              then Evil bay.

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo
              Group

              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15218 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: reserve feesE-bay
              The problem with other selling sites, regardless of fees, I want to sell my items this week because I need the cash now, not a month from now. As a seller, I need to go where the money is.
              Sean   

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Oct 9, 2010, at 4:37 PM, George Frey <orangetrainman33@...> wrote:

               

              true but E-bay didn't just burst on the seen with a customer base of say 50000,00000 did  they they Had to START SOMEWHERE!!!!!!!!!
               

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group                                                  

               




              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 1:10:35 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: reserve feesE-bay

               

              All these alternate sites are fine, but they still have about 1/10 of 1% the
              customer base of eBay.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:41 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: reserve feesE-bay

              if you don't like the E-bay fees try this site http://www.bonanza.com/ click
              on
              register on the top left, set up a store (booth) and sell there are no
              listing fees and very small seller fees( better then E-bay) and they allow
              you
              to chose what forms of payment to want to accept. they are about 100% better
              then Evil bay.

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo
              Group

              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15219 From: George Frey Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: reserve feesE-bay
              you should not "judge a book by its cover"  just because Bonanza doesn't have the customer base that Evil (no not a misspelling) Bay dose, E Bay started out small and thanks to some Wheeling and dealing by MEG Whitman it became Hugh, it should be noted that Whitman  had been on the board of Goldman Sacks, and already an investor in E-bay and had the millions to buy media coverage, and turn Evil bay into a Giant in the industry, and the ONLY reason they have such big customer base is because they got here fist!!!!!
              Give Bonanza  a few years and I BET  YOU, they will be as big or BIGGER then E-BAY, and Ill tell you why.
              the American consumer and seller is getting Tired of the Fucking  fees that this company( EVIL bay) charges,
              and also is getting tired of a bunch of Commies dictating to them how they HAVE TO pay E_bay says "we want your business buyer as long as "you pay by Pay-pal ( whom BTW E-BAY own es) but if you don't have a credit card or cant pay OUR asinine fees,Then "FUCK you, we don't want you" take your business and go somewhere else which IS exactly what I did, i left Evil bay about 1 yrs ago and be ASSURED  as long as they won't accept American forms of money( money-orders, checks) I'LL  Never go back!!!
               
              viva LA Bonanza!!!!!!!

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group                                                  

               




              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 1:10:35 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: reserve feesE-bay

               

              All these alternate sites are fine, but they still have about 1/10 of 1% the
              customer base of eBay.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:41 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: reserve feesE-bay

              if you don't like the E-bay fees try this site http://www.bonanza.com/ click
              on
              register on the top left, set up a store (booth) and sell there are no
              listing fees and very small seller fees( better then E-bay) and they allow
              you
              to chose what forms of payment to want to accept. they are about 100% better
              then Evil bay.

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo
              Group

              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15220 From: George Frey Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: appoligy/ebay reserve fees
              Group: a little while ago i posted a reply to a message that was posted by Don
              Dellman, however i hit the wrong button and sent the reply  to-the entire
              group.so I WANT TO APOLOGIZE to each and every member of this group for very
              inappropriate language,that was posted in this reply i am sorry the reply was
              meant for the original poster( Don) only and this discussion should have been
              sent only to him I APOLOGIZE  to any and all members( especially "OUR ' female
              members). it will NEVER  happen again!!!!
              Sorry

               
              George Frey
              Proud member of
              1/87 Military Models Yahoo
              Group                                                  
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15221 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: appoligy/ebay reserve fees
              Wash your mouth out with peanut butter :-)

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] appoligy/ebay reserve fees


              Group: a little while ago i posted a reply to a message that was posted by
              Don
              Dellman, however i hit the wrong button and sent the reply to-the entire
              group.so I WANT TO APOLOGIZE to each and every member of this group for very
              inappropriate language,that was posted in this reply i am sorry the reply
              was
              meant for the original poster( Don) only and this discussion should have
              been
              sent only to him I APOLOGIZE to any and all members( especially "OUR '
              female
              members). it will NEVER happen again!!!!
              Sorry


              George Frey
              Proud member of
              1/87 Military Models Yahoo
              Group





              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15222 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Varney question(s)
              Wood and cardboard flat is Comet.
              I think the metal overlay GN flat is Varney:
              http://hoseeker.net/varneyinformation/varneycatalog1941pg30.jpg
              Hard to read it, but I think so.

              The only thing I can think is early Varney, but the excel files don't show much older stuff.
              If I could find road numbers, I'd be set.
              Some are close, but close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I have a whole bunch of what appears to be Varney freight cars.
              > > I say appears, as most are in original boxes (altho partially assembled), and what is in most boxes matches the ends.
              > > However.
              > > Every one is embossed cardboard and wood.
              > > Looks like Megow or something.
              > >
              > > Blatz Beer Reefer road number 23104 (box says R-11), PFE Reefer road number 41520 (box says R-17), IC Reefer road number 50200 (box says R-16), C&NW auto box road number 51998 (box says B-28)SP Overnight Box, road number 9134, no box, GN metal overlay flatcar (no box) road number 67203, Union Reefer road number 9134 (no box) C&NW Cardboard and wood flat, road number 4259 space 1, and some kind of work car, box car shaped, no name, windows on sides one end, windows in ends.
              > >
              > > Looking at HOSeeker, the catalogs list the Blatz car, but before we get to numbers high enough in series, they seem to have gone to brass or metal.
              > > Are these war-babies?
              > >
              > > Varnet trucks on all, Varney choppers on some, Mantua on the rest for couplers.
              > >
              > > Thanks.
              > > Dave
              > >
              > > (oh, and when did Varney start putting stock nubers (like B-50) on the sides of the cars?)
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15223 From: George Frey Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: appoligy/ebay reserve fees
              for sure!!!!!
               

              George Frey

              Proud member of

              1/87 Military Models Yahoo Group                                                  

               




              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 4:40:59 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] appoligy/ebay reserve fees

               

              Wash your mouth out with peanut butter :-)

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "George Frey" <orangetrainman33@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] appoligy/ebay reserve fees

              Group: a little while ago i posted a reply to a message that was posted by
              Don
              Dellman, however i hit the wrong button and sent the reply to-the entire
              group.so I WANT TO APOLOGIZE to each and every member of this group for very
              inappropriate language,that was posted in this reply i am sorry the reply
              was
              meant for the original poster( Don) only and this discussion should have
              been
              sent only to him I APOLOGIZE to any and all members( especially "OUR '
              female
              members). it will NEVER happen again!!!!
              Sorry

              George Frey
              Proud member of
              1/87 Military Models Yahoo
              Group

              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15224 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: SP Overnite Merchandise Boxcar
              I have no idea how to imbed a photo in a post.
              If you look in the photo section, you will see a photo titled SP Overnite Merchandise Boxcar.

              Embossed cardboard sides, wood framing, sill, Varney end beams, Varney roofwalk (Tennite?) brake wheel assembly, trucks, Baker couplers, got a box of this kind of stuff, cannot find this road number anywhere.

              HELP!


              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15225 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: SP Overnite Merchandise Boxcar
              Varney cardstock kit no. B-30 in the 1948 catalog.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 8:18 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] SP Overnite Merchandise Boxcar


              >I have no idea how to imbed a photo in a post.
              > If you look in the photo section, you will see a photo titled SP Overnite
              > Merchandise Boxcar.
              >
              > Embossed cardboard sides, wood framing, sill, Varney end beams, Varney
              > roofwalk (Tennite?) brake wheel assembly, trucks, Baker couplers, got a
              > box of this kind of stuff, cannot find this road number anywhere.
              >
              > HELP!
              >
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15226 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: SP Overnite Merchandise Boxcar
              Ya know, I looked in the 39, and 41 cats, nothing.
              I kept seeing "embossed metal car side" in the 48...I'll go look again.

              The pages are scanned without a weight, so it's real hard to read especially along the binding.

              I have a whole raft of metal Varneys, from that era.......but I always thought they got away from cardboard right after the war when materials became available again?

              Thanks.

              Dave
              >
              > Varney cardstock kit no. B-30 in the 1948 catalog.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 8:18 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] SP Overnite Merchandise Boxcar
              >
              >
              > >I have no idea how to imbed a photo in a post.
              > > If you look in the photo section, you will see a photo titled SP Overnite
              > > Merchandise Boxcar.
              > >
              > > Embossed cardboard sides, wood framing, sill, Varney end beams, Varney
              > > roofwalk (Tennite?) brake wheel assembly, trucks, Baker couplers, got a
              > > box of this kind of stuff, cannot find this road number anywhere.
              > >
              > > HELP!
              > >
              > >
              > > Dave
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15227 From: nvrr49 Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              I am with Steve on this. I bid waht I bid and walk away. If I win I win. I don't sit around and watch it. I have plenty to build as it is.

              Kent in KC
              nvrr49.blogspot.com

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
              >
              > People seem to make ebay a lot more complex than it is. I ask myself two questions: 1. do I want this item? 2. If yes, then what is the maximum amount of money am I willing to spend for it? That is the amount I bid. If it doesn't meet the reserve, then the seller wants more for it than I'm willing to pay ... oh well. This means that I don't have to sit by the computer waiting for the last second to try to outbid someone else who is sitting by the computer waiting for the last second to outbid me. I bid my max ... if I get it great .... if I don't then I'll bid on the next item. No hassle.
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15228 From: nvrr49 Date: 10/9/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              "It's auction psychology"

              Boy is it ever. I will give you an example from some stuff I sold over the last couple weeks. I tried to sell the items for #3.00 postage paid, and sold less than half of the items. I relisted the items for $2.00 with $1.00 for freight and sold almost all, and at more the minimum bid. The first time everything that sold, save one item, went for the minimum. I had some other $3.00 postpaid items in another catagory, that I relisted for $0.01 and $2.99 in postage, and they averaged selling for $4.00 on the relist. Go figure.

              Kent in KC
              nvrr49.blogspot.com
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15229 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              I have a huge pet peeve about the "second chance offer".
               
              Let's say the bid increment is $1.00 and at the end of the auctions the top bids look like this:
               
              $76.00 1st (may have bid more, but we will never know.  $1.00 is enough to win.
              $75.00 2nd (me)
              $35.00 3rd
               
              Then I get a "second chance" offer.  Almost certainly the high bidder backed out.  So in my view, that bid shouldn't count.
               
              The "second chance" offer is $75.00, the "bid" I had showing.
               
              However, "but for" the high bidder's bid, I would have had the winning bid of $36.00.  And that's what the second chance offer should be.  Not $75.00.
               
              I have suspected (strongly) that certainly sellers have a shill toss in a bid just to pull the second bidder's bid up and then back out to allow this "second chance" offer sham.  So it's either a sham, or exploited as a scam and sham.
               
              So I never take a second chance offer unless, "but for" the worthless high bid, it would be about the same amount anyway.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

               


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:14 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              > Don,
              >
              >
              >
              > I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items. I at least
              > once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have been
              > close enough for the seller to offer to sell it. So if you do not bid,
              > you
              > have no chance.
              >
              >
              >
              > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
              > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
              >
              >
              >
              > _____

              I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.

              On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what the
              set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I wanted
              it, so I took it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15230 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Shipping cost (was eBay question about reserves)
              In a message dated 10/9/2010 7:43 A.M. PDT, in vintageHO@yahoogroups, Steve W. wrote:
              I always figure the shipping as part of the purchase price.
              So do I and so does my inventory program because it has three lines available for "Additional costs"; I always make one of them "Shipping."  If I know the retail price of the item, the program will then tell me what percentage of retail I paid.  I have paid 150% (+/-) for a couple of items that are difficult to find now (can you say Athearn Blue Box?), even at train shows.
               
              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15231 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              I fail to see the problem. Regardless of what other people bid, you were
              willing to go the $ 75.00. If you weren't, you shouldn't have bid that
              high.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <ckinzer@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:11 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves


              I have a huge pet peeve about the "second chance offer".

              Let's say the bid increment is $1.00 and at the end of the auctions the top
              bids look like this:

              $76.00 1st (may have bid more, but we will never know. $1.00 is enough to
              win.
              $75.00 2nd (me)
              $35.00 3rd

              Then I get a "second chance" offer. Almost certainly the high bidder backed
              out. So in my view, that bid shouldn't count.

              The "second chance" offer is $75.00, the "bid" I had showing.

              However, "but for" the high bidder's bid, I would have had the winning bid
              of $36.00. And that's what the second chance offer should be. Not $75.00.

              I have suspected (strongly) that certainly sellers have a shill toss in a
              bid just to pull the second bidder's bid up and then back out to allow this
              "second chance" offer sham. So it's either a sham, or exploited as a scam
              and sham.

              So I never take a second chance offer unless, "but for" the worthless high
              bid, it would be about the same amount anyway.

              Chuck Kinzer

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Don Dellmann
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves




              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:14 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              > Don,
              >
              >
              >
              > I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items. I at
              least
              > once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have
              been
              > close enough for the seller to offer to sell it. So if you do not bid,
              > you
              > have no chance.
              >
              >
              >
              > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
              > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
              >
              >
              >
              > _____

              I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.

              On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what
              the
              set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I
              wanted
              it, so I took it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15232 From: John H Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              Don,

              You got that right.

              I see "evil" bay carping on various message boards. Usually I ignore them but this one has gone now into its third or fourth day now and I feel compelled to add my two pieces of bs to the fire.

              You know I can't help but wonder just what is this magical hold ebay seems to have on some people that makes them spend mucho dinero that they wouldn't otherwise. I buy there and the only person responsible for what I spend is .... ahhhh...well....ME!!! I try to be careful on what I buy and not get the short end of the stick and, for all but a couple of occasions over the last fifteen years, I have. I've been suckered many more times in person.

              All this talk about how reserves or starting prices or whatever suckers buyers into spending the rent money is ridiculous. Decide what you want to spend and don't spend more than that. Period. And if you miss that "deal of a lifetime", one like it, or maybe even better, will come around someday.

              And sellers who complain about the fees charged are more than welcome to takes their wares elsewhere. In fact I kind of like it when they do cause, if they actually manage to make the occasional sale on the other auction sites, chances are they are selling for less, sometimes much less, than they would on ebay and that's good for the me, the buyer.

              Oh yes, I am not married to ebay when buying, not in the least. However when selling I want the best chance of selling quickly and getting the best (highest) price so then I stick to ebay. The alleged "exorbitant" fees? Just a cost of doing business. Advertising during the Super Bowl? Talk about exorbitant fees but many more people will view the ad. The high costs? Just the cost of doing business.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              > I fail to see the problem. Regardless of what other people bid, you were
              > willing to go the $ 75.00. If you weren't, you shouldn't have bid that
              > high.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <ckinzer@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:11 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              >
              > I have a huge pet peeve about the "second chance offer".
              >
              > Let's say the bid increment is $1.00 and at the end of the auctions the top
              > bids look like this:
              >
              > $76.00 1st (may have bid more, but we will never know. $1.00 is enough to
              > win.
              > $75.00 2nd (me)
              > $35.00 3rd
              >
              > Then I get a "second chance" offer. Almost certainly the high bidder backed
              > out. So in my view, that bid shouldn't count.
              >
              > The "second chance" offer is $75.00, the "bid" I had showing.
              >
              > However, "but for" the high bidder's bid, I would have had the winning bid
              > of $36.00. And that's what the second chance offer should be. Not $75.00.
              >
              > I have suspected (strongly) that certainly sellers have a shill toss in a
              > bid just to pull the second bidder's bid up and then back out to allow this
              > "second chance" offer sham. So it's either a sham, or exploited as a scam
              > and sham.
              >
              > So I never take a second chance offer unless, "but for" the worthless high
              > bid, it would be about the same amount anyway.
              >
              > Chuck Kinzer
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15233 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              The issue isn't what I was "willing to bid".
               
              If you "snipe bid" for example, you most certainly do not expect to always end up at the full value of the snipe bid.  But many bid reasonably healthy amounts to increase probability of getting the item - on average.  So, with honestly handled auction results, on average, you pay far less than you actual bids.
               
              In this case, a bidder that backs out, isn't a bidder at all in my opinion.  And that bid should be voided.  It shouldn't have been there.  And I should be offered the item (if at all) under the standard terms.
               
              Ebay's own "automatic bidding" jargon is this:
               
              "WeÂ’ll place bids on your behalf using the automatic bid increment amount, which is based on the current high bid. We'll bid only as much as necessary to make sure that you remain the high bidder, or to meet the reserve price, up to your maximum amount."
               
              This is neither of those cases since I did not, in fact, 1) remain the high bidder and 2) there was no reserve.
               
              So ebay should be setting my bid, once the "high" bidder is effectively removed, to a level based on their rules.
               
              Incidentally, If there had been a reserve then my bid, if above the reserve and artificially pulled up due to a bogus or fraud bidder, should be returned to the reserve price.  Because that is what would have happened if the auction were on the up and up.
               
              I feel that what Ebay does invites fraud shill bids and is therefore a disservice to the ebay community, an embarrasment to our form of captilism, and a blight on the entire planet.  It must be stopped, I say.  It must be stopped!
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

               

              I fail to see the problem. Regardless of what other people bid, you were
              willing to go the $ 75.00. If you weren't, you shouldn't have bid that
              high.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <ckinzer@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:11 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              I have a huge pet peeve about the "second chance offer".

              Let's say the bid increment is $1.00 and at the end of the auctions the top
              bids look like this:

              $76.00 1st (may have bid more, but we will never know. $1.00 is enough to
              win.
              $75.00 2nd (me)
              $35.00 3rd

              Then I get a "second chance" offer. Almost certainly the high bidder backed
              out. So in my view, that bid shouldn't count.

              The "second chance" offer is $75.00, the "bid" I had showing.

              However, "but for" the high bidder's bid, I would have had the winning bid
              of $36.00. And that's what the second chance offer should be. Not $75.00.

              I have suspected (strongly) that certainly sellers have a shill toss in a
              bid just to pull the second bidder's bid up and then back out to allow this
              "second chance" offer sham. So it's either a sham, or exploited as a scam
              and sham.

              So I never take a second chance offer unless, "but for" the worthless high
              bid, it would be about the same amount anyway.

              Chuck Kinzer

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Don Dellmann
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:14 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              > Don,
              >
              >
              >
              > I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items. I at
              least
              > once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have
              been
              > close enough for the seller to offer to sell it. So if you do not bid,
              > you
              > have no chance.
              >
              >
              >
              > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
              > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
              >
              >
              >
              > _____

              I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.

              On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what
              the
              set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I
              wanted
              it, so I took it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15234 From: Robert Karnisky Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: eBay question about reserves
              It appears from the responses that many of us have pent-up feelings about eBay, both positive and negative. Nice that it has inspired such a spirited dialogue, yet without the nastiness that sometimes comes with "spirited." As more of a buyer than a seller, I haven't developed the deep resentment of eBay fees that many sellers seem to have.
               
              I do have got one other related issue to throw out to the group - sometimes when I've been outbid on an item, the person who outbid me then retracts their bid, and I am notified that as a result, I've become the high bidder again. But the process doesn't completely negate the impact of the person who outbid me - my bid will then reflect my maximum bid, which was triggered by the bidder who has since cancelled. Am I saying this right? Has anyone else found this irksome? Thanks!
               
              - Rob Karnisky   

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15235 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              In a live auction there is no second chance. The seller has to relist. Perhaps eBay should eliminate the second chance altogether, although I think that that would not be a popular move with buyers. In any event, no one is
              required to accept the second chance offer, is he. If the second bidder declines, I believe that eBay then allows the seller to offer a second chance to the third highest bidder. Don't know when it stops, at the third or somewhere else down the line. But my point is, you can refuse the second chance offer.

              On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:08 PM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
               

              The issue isn't what I was "willing to bid".
               
              If you "snipe bid" for example, you most certainly do not expect to always end up at the full value of the snipe bid.  But many bid reasonably healthy amounts to increase probability of getting the item - on average.  So, with honestly handled auction results, on average, you pay far less than you actual bids.
               
              In this case, a bidder that backs out, isn't a bidder at all in my opinion.  And that bid should be voided.  It shouldn't have been there.  And I should be offered the item (if at all) under the standard terms.
               
              Ebay's own "automatic bidding" jargon is this:
               
              "We’ll place bids on your behalf using the automatic bid increment amount, which is based on the current high bid. We'll bid only as much as necessary to make sure that you remain the high bidder, or to meet the reserve price, up to your maximum amount."
               
              This is neither of those cases since I did not, in fact, 1) remain the high bidder and 2) there was no reserve.
               
              So ebay should be setting my bid, once the "high" bidder is effectively removed, to a level based on their rules.
               
              Incidentally, If there had been a reserve then my bid, if above the reserve and artificially pulled up due to a bogus or fraud bidder, should be returned to the reserve price.  Because that is what would have happened if the auction were on the up and up.
               
              I feel that what Ebay does invites fraud shill bids and is therefore a disservice to the ebay community, an embarrasment to our form of captilism, and a blight on the entire planet.  It must be stopped, I say.  It must be stopped!
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

               

              I fail to see the problem. Regardless of what other people bid, you were
              willing to go the $ 75.00. If you weren't, you shouldn't have bid that
              high.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <ckinzer@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:11 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              I have a huge pet peeve about the "second chance offer".

              Let's say the bid increment is $1.00 and at the end of the auctions the top
              bids look like this:

              $76.00 1st (may have bid more, but we will never know. $1.00 is enough to
              win.
              $75.00 2nd (me)
              $35.00 3rd

              Then I get a "second chance" offer. Almost certainly the high bidder backed
              out. So in my view, that bid shouldn't count.

              The "second chance" offer is $75.00, the "bid" I had showing.

              However, "but for" the high bidder's bid, I would have had the winning bid
              of $36.00. And that's what the second chance offer should be. Not $75.00.

              I have suspected (strongly) that certainly sellers have a shill toss in a
              bid just to pull the second bidder's bid up and then back out to allow this
              "second chance" offer sham. So it's either a sham, or exploited as a scam
              and sham.

              So I never take a second chance offer unless, "but for" the worthless high
              bid, it would be about the same amount anyway.

              Chuck Kinzer

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Don Dellmann
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:14 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              > Don,
              >
              >
              >
              > I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items. I at
              least
              > once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have
              been
              > close enough for the seller to offer to sell it. So if you do not bid,
              > you
              > have no chance.
              >
              >
              >
              > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
              > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
              >
              >
              >
              > _____

              I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.

              On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what
              the
              set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I
              wanted
              it, so I took it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15236 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              Think that was Chuck K's "pet peeve".

              On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Robert Karnisky <karnisky@...> wrote:
               

              It appears from the responses that many of us have pent-up feelings about eBay, both positive and negative. Nice that it has inspired such a spirited dialogue, yet without the nastiness that sometimes comes with "spirited." As more of a buyer than a seller, I haven't developed the deep resentment of eBay fees that many sellers seem to have.
               
              I do have got one other related issue to throw out to the group - sometimes when I've been outbid on an item, the person who outbid me then retracts their bid, and I am notified that as a result, I've become the high bidder again. But the process doesn't completely negate the impact of the person who outbid me - my bid will then reflect my maximum bid, which was triggered by the bidder who has since cancelled. Am I saying this right? Has anyone else found this irksome? Thanks!
               
              - Rob Karnisky   




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15237 From: George Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              Hi, I came in late to this dissuasion. But I have a question .....How do you know the high bidder backed out? Maybe the seller had more than one of the items? That's why in your example the 2nd chance offer to you was $75, your maximum bid..
               
              George
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 12:08 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

               

              The issue isn't what I was "willing to bid".
               
              If you "snipe bid" for example, you most certainly do not expect to always end up at the full value of the snipe bid.  But many bid reasonably healthy amounts to increase probability of getting the item - on average.  So, with honestly handled auction results, on average, you pay far less than you actual bids.
               
              In this case, a bidder that backs out, isn't a bidder at all in my opinion.  And that bid should be voided.  It shouldn't have been there.  And I should be offered the item (if at all) under the standard terms.
               
              Ebay's own "automatic bidding" jargon is this:
               
              "WeÂ’ll place bids on your behalf using the automatic bid increment amount, which is based on the current high bid. We'll bid only as much as necessary to make sure that you remain the high bidder, or to meet the reserve price, up to your maximum amount."
               
              This is neither of those cases since I did not, in fact, 1) remain the high bidder and 2) there was no reserve.
               
              So ebay should be setting my bid, once the "high" bidder is effectively removed, to a level based on their rules.
               
              Incidentally, If there had been a reserve then my bid, if above the reserve and artificially pulled up due to a bogus or fraud bidder, should be returned to the reserve price.  Because that is what would have happened if the auction were on the up and up.
               
              I feel that what Ebay does invites fraud shill bids and is therefore a disservice to the ebay community, an embarrasment to our form of captilism, and a blight on the entire planet.  It must be stopped, I say.  It must be stopped!
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

               

              I fail to see the problem. Regardless of what other people bid, you were
              willing to go the $ 75.00. If you weren't, you shouldn't have bid that
              high.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <ckinzer@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:11 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              I have a huge pet peeve about the "second chance offer".

              Let's say the bid increment is $1.00 and at the end of the auctions the top
              bids look like this:

              $76.00 1st (may have bid more, but we will never know. $1.00 is enough to
              win.
              $75.00 2nd (me)
              $35.00 3rd

              Then I get a "second chance" offer. Almost certainly the high bidder backed
              out. So in my view, that bid shouldn't count.

              The "second chance" offer is $75.00, the "bid" I had showing.

              However, "but for" the high bidder's bid, I would have had the winning bid
              of $36.00. And that's what the second chance offer should be. Not $75.00.

              I have suspected (strongly) that certainly sellers have a shill toss in a
              bid just to pull the second bidder's bid up and then back out to allow this
              "second chance" offer sham. So it's either a sham, or exploited as a scam
              and sham.

              So I never take a second chance offer unless, "but for" the worthless high
              bid, it would be about the same amount anyway.

              Chuck Kinzer

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Don Dellmann
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:14 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

              > Don,
              >
              >
              >
              > I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items. I at
              least
              > once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have
              been
              > close enough for the seller to offer to sell it. So if you do not bid,
              > you
              > have no chance.
              >
              >
              >
              > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
              > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
              >
              >
              >
              > _____

              I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.

              On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what
              the
              set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I
              wanted
              it, so I took it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15238 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              You CAN always file a complaint with eBay if you feel you were were cheated.
              The complaint process DOES work, I've actually had a seller banned more than
              once.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Walter Bayer II" <bayerw2@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 5:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves


              In a live auction there is no second chance. The seller has to relist.
              Perhaps eBay should eliminate the second chance altogether, although I think
              that that would not be a popular move with buyers. In any event, no one is
              required to accept the second chance offer, is he. If the second bidder
              declines, I believe that eBay then allows the seller to offer a second
              chance to the third highest bidder. Don't know when it stops, at the third
              or somewhere else down the line. But my point is, you can refuse the second
              chance offer.

              On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:08 PM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > The issue isn't what I was "willing to bid".
              >
              > If you "snipe bid" for example, you most certainly do not expect to always
              > end up at the full value of the snipe bid. But many bid reasonably
              > healthy
              > amounts to increase probability of getting the item - on average. So,
              > with
              > honestly handled auction results, on average, you pay far less than you
              > actual bids.
              >
              > In this case, a bidder that backs out, isn't a bidder at all in my
              > opinion. And that bid should be voided. It shouldn't have been there.
              > And
              > I should be offered the item (if at all) under the standard terms.
              >
              > Ebay's own "automatic bidding" jargon is this:
              >
              > "We’ll place bids on your behalf using the automatic bid increment amount,
              > which is based on the current high bid. We'll bid only as much as
              > necessary
              > to make sure that you remain the high bidder, or to meet the reserve
              > price,
              > up to your maximum amount."
              >
              > This is neither of those cases since I did not, in fact, 1) remain the
              > high
              > bidder and 2) there was no reserve.
              >
              > So ebay should be setting my bid, once the "high" bidder is effectively
              > removed, to a level based on their rules.
              >
              > Incidentally, If there had been a reserve then my bid, if above the
              > reserve
              > and artificially pulled up due to a bogus or fraud bidder, should be
              > returned to the reserve price. Because that is what would have happened
              > if
              > the auction were on the up and up.
              >
              > I feel that what Ebay does invites fraud shill bids and is therefore a
              > disservice to the ebay community, an embarrasment to our form of
              > captilism,
              > and a blight on the entire planet. It must be stopped, I say. It must be
              > stopped!
              >
              > Chuck Kinzer
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > *From:* Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              > *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:46 AM
              > *Subject:* Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              >
              >
              > I fail to see the problem. Regardless of what other people bid, you were
              > willing to go the $ 75.00. If you weren't, you shouldn't have bid that
              > high.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <ckinzer@... <ckinzer%40att.net>>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:11 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              > I have a huge pet peeve about the "second chance offer".
              >
              > Let's say the bid increment is $1.00 and at the end of the auctions the
              > top
              >
              > bids look like this:
              >
              > $76.00 1st (may have bid more, but we will never know. $1.00 is enough to
              > win.
              > $75.00 2nd (me)
              > $35.00 3rd
              >
              > Then I get a "second chance" offer. Almost certainly the high bidder
              > backed
              >
              > out. So in my view, that bid shouldn't count.
              >
              > The "second chance" offer is $75.00, the "bid" I had showing.
              >
              > However, "but for" the high bidder's bid, I would have had the winning bid
              > of $36.00. And that's what the second chance offer should be. Not $75.00.
              >
              > I have suspected (strongly) that certainly sellers have a shill toss in a
              > bid just to pull the second bidder's bid up and then back out to allow
              > this
              >
              > "second chance" offer sham. So it's either a sham, or exploited as a scam
              > and sham.
              >
              > So I never take a second chance offer unless, "but for" the worthless high
              > bid, it would be about the same amount anyway.
              >
              > Chuck Kinzer
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Don Dellmann
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:53 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@... <vze5crrw1%40verizon.net>>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:14 PM
              > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              > > Don,
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items. I at
              > least
              > > once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have
              > been
              > > close enough for the seller to offer to sell it. So if you do not bid,
              > > you
              > > have no chance.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
              > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > _____
              >
              > I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              > more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.
              >
              > On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              > cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              > there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              > After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              > was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              > never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what
              > the
              > set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I
              > wanted
              > it, so I took it.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@... <don.dellmann%40prodigy.net>
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15239 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              Hi Rob,
               
              I not only have had that happen, but there were a few occasions when in the last few hours of the auction, it ended up at my maximum bid, exactly, so I started using odd numbers, like 9.99 or 5.01, that stopped a lot of that, I knew I was probably being scammed if I saw the auction end and my top bid was 30.02, and so was the so called final bid!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, October 10, 2010 6:24:52 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves

               

              Think that was Chuck K's "pet peeve".

              On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Robert Karnisky <karnisky@...> wrote:
               

              It appears from the responses that many of us have pent-up feelings about eBay, both positive and negative. Nice that it has inspired such a spirited dialogue, yet without the nastiness that sometimes comes with "spirited." As more of a buyer than a seller, I haven't developed the deep resentment of eBay fees that many sellers seem to have.
               
              I do have got one other related issue to throw out to the group - sometimes when I've been outbid on an item, the person who outbid me then retracts their bid, and I am notified that as a result, I've become the high bidder again. But the process doesn't completely negate the impact of the person who outbid me - my bid will then reflect my maximum bid, which was triggered by the bidder who has since cancelled. Am I saying this right? Has anyone else found this irksome? Thanks!
               
              - Rob Karnisky   




              --
              Regards,
              Walter

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15240 From: John H Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              Like I said, I have no particular love for ebay or all of their processes. It is a tool for buying/selling, nothing more. But if I felt they were as dastardly as you obviously do, I would stop using them. If your life is being so disrupted by ebay, stop using them. Or at least bring your concerns up to them and get their response. What Don or I or anyone else on this list thinks ain't going to resolve your dilemma.

              There are several businesses that I refuse to use as I either feel they are as nasty as you feel about ebay or simply because their method of doing business is not how I prefer to do my business (ran into that situation recently with a laser kit I am working on producing). One or two of whom the members of this group would recognize. But that is between them and I.

              Point is, every possible type of comment, pro or con, about how ebay conducts their business has been aired (again) and re-aired (again) here the last few days. My dilemma is how to get the subject back to vintage HO.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
              >
              > The issue isn't what I was "willing to bid".
              >
              > If you "snipe bid" for example, you most certainly do not expect to always end up at the full value of the snipe bid. But many bid reasonably healthy amounts to increase probability of getting the item - on average. So, with honestly handled auction results, on average, you pay far less than you actual bids.
              >
              > In this case, a bidder that backs out, isn't a bidder at all in my opinion. And that bid should be voided. It shouldn't have been there. And I should be offered the item (if at all) under the standard terms.
              >
              > Ebay's own "automatic bidding" jargon is this:
              >
              > "We'll place bids on your behalf using the automatic bid increment amount, which is based on the current high bid. We'll bid only as much as necessary to make sure that you remain the high bidder, or to meet the reserve price, up to your maximum amount."
              >
              > This is neither of those cases since I did not, in fact, 1) remain the high bidder and 2) there was no reserve.
              >
              > So ebay should be setting my bid, once the "high" bidder is effectively removed, to a level based on their rules.
              >
              > Incidentally, If there had been a reserve then my bid, if above the reserve and artificially pulled up due to a bogus or fraud bidder, should be returned to the reserve price. Because that is what would have happened if the auction were on the up and up.
              >
              > I feel that what Ebay does invites fraud shill bids and is therefore a disservice to the ebay community, an embarrasment to our form of captilism, and a blight on the entire planet. It must be stopped, I say. It must be stopped!
              >
              > Chuck Kinzer
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15241 From: trainliker Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              I guess I don't "know" the high bidder backed out. However, the sort of things I bid on are so collectable that it is extreeeeemly unlikely somebody is sitting on two of them.

              Even so, if it is a duplicate item, I would then want to have a new auction for it and not an attempted purchase of the duplicate item tainted by activity for the first item. If there is more than one, I might even be inclined to bid less since I would know there is one less bidder to worry about.

              Chuck K.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "George" <gabvball@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi, I came in late to this dissuasion. But I have a question .....How do you know the high bidder backed out? Maybe the seller had more than one of the items? That's why in your example the 2nd chance offer to you was $75, your maximum bid..
              >
              > George
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: ckinzer@...
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 12:08 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The issue isn't what I was "willing to bid".
              >
              > If you "snipe bid" for example, you most certainly do not expect to always end up at the full value of the snipe bid. But many bid reasonably healthy amounts to increase probability of getting the item - on average. So, with honestly handled auction results, on average, you pay far less than you actual bids.
              >
              > In this case, a bidder that backs out, isn't a bidder at all in my opinion. And that bid should be voided. It shouldn't have been there. And I should be offered the item (if at all) under the standard terms.
              >
              > Ebay's own "automatic bidding" jargon is this:
              >
              > "We'll place bids on your behalf using the automatic bid increment amount, which is based on the current high bid. We'll bid only as much as necessary to make sure that you remain the high bidder, or to meet the reserve price, up to your maximum amount."
              >
              > This is neither of those cases since I did not, in fact, 1) remain the high bidder and 2) there was no reserve.
              >
              > So ebay should be setting my bid, once the "high" bidder is effectively removed, to a level based on their rules.
              >
              > Incidentally, If there had been a reserve then my bid, if above the reserve and artificially pulled up due to a bogus or fraud bidder, should be returned to the reserve price. Because that is what would have happened if the auction were on the up and up.
              >
              > I feel that what Ebay does invites fraud shill bids and is therefore a disservice to the ebay community, an embarrasment to our form of captilism, and a blight on the entire planet. It must be stopped, I say. It must be stopped!
              >
              > Chuck Kinzer
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Don Dellmann
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:46 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              >
              >
              > I fail to see the problem. Regardless of what other people bid, you were
              > willing to go the $ 75.00. If you weren't, you shouldn't have bid that
              > high.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <ckinzer@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:11 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              > I have a huge pet peeve about the "second chance offer".
              >
              > Let's say the bid increment is $1.00 and at the end of the auctions the top
              > bids look like this:
              >
              > $76.00 1st (may have bid more, but we will never know. $1.00 is enough to
              > win.
              > $75.00 2nd (me)
              > $35.00 3rd
              >
              > Then I get a "second chance" offer. Almost certainly the high bidder backed
              > out. So in my view, that bid shouldn't count.
              >
              > The "second chance" offer is $75.00, the "bid" I had showing.
              >
              > However, "but for" the high bidder's bid, I would have had the winning bid
              > of $36.00. And that's what the second chance offer should be. Not $75.00.
              >
              > I have suspected (strongly) that certainly sellers have a shill toss in a
              > bid just to pull the second bidder's bid up and then back out to allow this
              > "second chance" offer sham. So it's either a sham, or exploited as a scam
              > and sham.
              >
              > So I never take a second chance offer unless, "but for" the worthless high
              > bid, it would be about the same amount anyway.
              >
              > Chuck Kinzer
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Don Dellmann
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:53 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:14 PM
              > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              > > Don,
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items. I at
              > least
              > > once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have
              > been
              > > close enough for the seller to offer to sell it. So if you do not bid,
              > > you
              > > have no chance.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
              > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > _____
              >
              > I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              > more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.
              >
              > On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              > cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              > there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              > After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              > was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              > never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what
              > the
              > set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I
              > wanted
              > it, so I took it.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15242 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              Haven't been following this line of thought about eBay much, but it seems that this is yet another one of those grievances that is best left to other groups for discussion. In any case it all seems rather petty to me as no one in a group based on vintage HO is going to make a dent in anything eBay does. Let's get off this foolishness and get back to what this group was intended to deal with. I'm tired of seeing my in-box cluttered with this stuff. Thank you!
               
              Art Waite
              In a message dated 10/10/2010 7:57:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sprinthag@... writes:
              Like I said, I have no particular love for ebay or all of their processes. It is a tool for buying/selling, nothing more. But if I felt they were as dastardly as you obviously do, I would stop using them. If your life is being so disrupted by ebay, stop using them. Or at least bring your concerns up to them and get their response. What Don or I or anyone else on this list thinks ain't going to resolve your dilemma.

              There are several businesses that I refuse to use as I either feel they are as nasty as you feel about ebay or simply because their method of doing business is not how I prefer to do my business (ran into that situation recently with a laser kit I am working on producing). One or two of whom the members of this group would recognize. But that is between them and I.

              Point is, every possible type of comment, pro or con, about how ebay conducts their business has been aired (again) and re-aired (again) here the last few days. My dilemma is how to get the subject back to vintage HO.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
              >
              > The issue isn't what I was "willing to bid".
              >
              > If you "snipe bid" for example, you most certainly do not expect to always end up at the full value of the snipe bid.  But many bid reasonably healthy amounts to increase probability of getting the item - on average.  So, with honestly handled auction results, on average, you pay far less than you actual bids.
              >
              > In this case, a bidder that backs out, isn't a bidder at all in my opinion.  And that bid should be voided.  It shouldn't have been there.  And I should be offered the item (if at all) under the standard terms.
              >
              > Ebay's own "automatic bidding" jargon is this:
              >
              > "We'll place bids on your behalf using the automatic bid increment amount, which is based on the current high bid. We'll bid only as much as necessary to make sure that you remain the high bidder, or to meet the reserve price, up to your maximum amount."
              >
              > This is neither of those cases since I did not, in fact, 1) remain the high bidder and 2) there was no reserve.
              >
              > So ebay should be setting my bid, once the "high" bidder is effectively removed, to a level based on their rules.
              >
              > Incidentally, If there had been a reserve then my bid, if above the reserve and artificially pulled up due to a bogus or fraud bidder, should be returned to the reserve price.  Because that is what would have happened if the auction were on the up and up.
              >
              > I feel that what Ebay does invites fraud shill bids and is therefore a disservice to the ebay community, an embarrasment to our form of captilism, and a blight on the entire planet.  It must be stopped, I say.  It must be stopped!

              > Chuck Kinzer




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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15243 From: trainliker Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              There had been a lot of fraud second chance offers on ebay but I think making the bidder's name stopped that. Somebody would get the second bidder's name in the list, send an official looking email, the victim sends, and never receives anything. The frosting on that cake is that the buyer then files a complaint against the legitimate seller who is also an innocent victim.

              I miss not being able to contact other bidders. I made a few friends that way, and helped more than a few by providing information. (While I can still do that by sending it to the seller and asking them to pass it along, it's sort of an annoyance to the seller).

              In one case, I had a Varney "Wreck Proof Train" that had a very bad box and battery tube but the rest was pretty good. I lost a bid to a guy for another one with a perfect box, but mostly populated with unrelated things like some regular plastic tank engine. I contacted the guy and told him I would just send him what I had and then he could put together one good set, box and all. And did. Sort of my small contribution to setting the universe straight, I guess.

              Chuck Kinzer

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...> wrote:
              >
              > In a live auction there is no second chance. The seller has to relist.
              > Perhaps eBay should eliminate the second chance altogether, although I think
              > that that would not be a popular move with buyers. In any event, no one is
              > required to accept the second chance offer, is he. If the second bidder
              > declines, I believe that eBay then allows the seller to offer a second
              > chance to the third highest bidder. Don't know when it stops, at the third
              > or somewhere else down the line. But my point is, you can refuse the second
              > chance offer.
              >
              > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:08 PM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > The issue isn't what I was "willing to bid".
              > >
              > > If you "snipe bid" for example, you most certainly do not expect to always
              > > end up at the full value of the snipe bid. But many bid reasonably healthy
              > > amounts to increase probability of getting the item - on average. So, with
              > > honestly handled auction results, on average, you pay far less than you
              > > actual bids.
              > >
              > > In this case, a bidder that backs out, isn't a bidder at all in my
              > > opinion. And that bid should be voided. It shouldn't have been there. And
              > > I should be offered the item (if at all) under the standard terms.
              > >
              > > Ebay's own "automatic bidding" jargon is this:
              > >
              > > "We'll place bids on your behalf using the automatic bid increment amount,
              > > which is based on the current high bid. We'll bid only as much as necessary
              > > to make sure that you remain the high bidder, or to meet the reserve price,
              > > up to your maximum amount."
              > >
              > > This is neither of those cases since I did not, in fact, 1) remain the high
              > > bidder and 2) there was no reserve.
              > >
              > > So ebay should be setting my bid, once the "high" bidder is effectively
              > > removed, to a level based on their rules.
              > >
              > > Incidentally, If there had been a reserve then my bid, if above the reserve
              > > and artificially pulled up due to a bogus or fraud bidder, should be
              > > returned to the reserve price. Because that is what would have happened if
              > > the auction were on the up and up.
              > >
              > > I feel that what Ebay does invites fraud shill bids and is therefore a
              > > disservice to the ebay community, an embarrasment to our form of captilism,
              > > and a blight on the entire planet. It must be stopped, I say. It must be
              > > stopped!
              > >
              > > Chuck Kinzer
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > *From:* Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              > > *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:46 AM
              > > *Subject:* Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I fail to see the problem. Regardless of what other people bid, you were
              > > willing to go the $ 75.00. If you weren't, you shouldn't have bid that
              > > high.
              > >
              > > Don
              > >
              > > Don Dellmann
              > > don.dellmann@...
              > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > Owner
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: <ckinzer@... <ckinzer%40att.net>>
              > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:11 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              > >
              > > I have a huge pet peeve about the "second chance offer".
              > >
              > > Let's say the bid increment is $1.00 and at the end of the auctions the top
              > >
              > > bids look like this:
              > >
              > > $76.00 1st (may have bid more, but we will never know. $1.00 is enough to
              > > win.
              > > $75.00 2nd (me)
              > > $35.00 3rd
              > >
              > > Then I get a "second chance" offer. Almost certainly the high bidder backed
              > >
              > > out. So in my view, that bid shouldn't count.
              > >
              > > The "second chance" offer is $75.00, the "bid" I had showing.
              > >
              > > However, "but for" the high bidder's bid, I would have had the winning bid
              > > of $36.00. And that's what the second chance offer should be. Not $75.00.
              > >
              > > I have suspected (strongly) that certainly sellers have a shill toss in a
              > > bid just to pull the second bidder's bid up and then back out to allow this
              > >
              > > "second chance" offer sham. So it's either a sham, or exploited as a scam
              > > and sham.
              > >
              > > So I never take a second chance offer unless, "but for" the worthless high
              > > bid, it would be about the same amount anyway.
              > >
              > > Chuck Kinzer
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: Don Dellmann
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:53 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@... <vze5crrw1%40verizon.net>>
              > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:14 PM
              > > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              > >
              > > > Don,
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items. I at
              > > least
              > > > once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have
              > > been
              > > > close enough for the seller to offer to sell it. So if you do not bid,
              > > > you
              > > > have no chance.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
              > > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > _____
              > >
              > > I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              > > more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.
              > >
              > > On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              > > cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              > > there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              > > After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              > > was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              > > never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what
              > > the
              > > set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I
              > > wanted
              > > it, so I took it.
              > >
              > > Don
              > >
              > > Don Dellmann
              > > don.dellmann@... <don.dellmann%40prodigy.net>
              > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > Owner
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Regards,
              > Walter
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15244 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              I've been letting the discussion ride, and have even commented, because
              eBay, and auction sites like it, is/are a major source of the kinds of
              things we collect.

              However, it is getting close to becoming acrimonius, so I'd suggest we do
              let it drop.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <luvprr@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: eBay question about reserves


              > Haven't been following this line of thought about eBay much, but it seems
              > that this is yet another one of those grievances that is best left to
              > other
              > groups for discussion. In any case it all seems rather petty to me as no
              > one in a group based on vintage HO is going to make a dent in anything
              > eBay
              > does. Let's get off this foolishness and get back to what this group was
              > intended to deal with. I'm tired of seeing my in-box cluttered with this
              > stuff. Thank you!
              >
              > Art Waite
              >
              > In a message dated 10/10/2010 7:57:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              > sprinthag@... writes:
              >
              > Like I said, I have no particular love for ebay or all of their
              > processes.
              > It is a tool for buying/selling, nothing more. But if I felt they were as
              > dastardly as you obviously do, I would stop using them. If your life is
              > being so disrupted by ebay, stop using them. Or at least bring your
              > concerns
              > up to them and get their response. What Don or I or anyone else on this
              > list
              > thinks ain't going to resolve your dilemma.
              >
              > There are several businesses that I refuse to use as I either feel they
              > are as nasty as you feel about ebay or simply because their method of
              > doing
              > business is not how I prefer to do my business (ran into that situation
              > recently with a laser kit I am working on producing). One or two of whom
              > the
              > members of this group would recognize. But that is between them and I.
              >
              > Point is, every possible type of comment, pro or con, about how ebay
              > conducts their business has been aired (again) and re-aired (again) here
              > the
              > last few days. My dilemma is how to get the subject back to vintage HO.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> The issue isn't what I was "willing to bid".
              >>
              >> If you "snipe bid" for example, you most certainly do not expect to
              > always end up at the full value of the snipe bid. But many bid
              > reasonably
              > healthy amounts to increase probability of getting the item - on average.
              > So,
              > with honestly handled auction results, on average, you pay far less than
              > you actual bids.
              >>
              >> In this case, a bidder that backs out, isn't a bidder at all in my
              > opinion. And that bid should be voided. It shouldn't have been there.
              > And I
              > should be offered the item (if at all) under the standard terms.
              >>
              >> Ebay's own "automatic bidding" jargon is this:
              >>
              >> "We'll place bids on your behalf using the automatic bid increment
              > amount, which is based on the current high bid. We'll bid only as much as
              > necessary to make sure that you remain the high bidder, or to meet the
              > reserve
              > price, up to your maximum amount."
              >>
              >> This is neither of those cases since I did not, in fact, 1) remain the
              > high bidder and 2) there was no reserve.
              >>
              >> So ebay should be setting my bid, once the "high" bidder is effectively
              > removed, to a level based on their rules.
              >>
              >> Incidentally, If there had been a reserve then my bid, if above the
              > reserve and artificially pulled up due to a bogus or fraud bidder, should
              > be
              > returned to the reserve price. Because that is what would have happened
              > if
              > the auction were on the up and up.
              >>
              >> I feel that what Ebay does invites fraud shill bids and is therefore a
              > disservice to the ebay community, an embarrasment to our form of
              > captilism,
              > and a blight on the entire planet. It must be stopped, I say. It must
              > be
              > stopped!
              >>
              >> Chuck Kinzer
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15245 From: pineconelumberng@sbcglobal.net Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Mantua Shifter
              Hello all,
              I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a booklet titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956", by Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as well as others.

              I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.

              Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              Value at this time?
              The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or something similar, what is this #?
              Before 1970 kits I get lost.

              Thank you in advance
              Dennis
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15246 From: George Date: 10/10/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay question about reserves
              I see your point. But in this example, the seller is in the drivers seat. :<(  If you want it...$75. If not, he may or may not relist it. I guess it goes back to...you were willing to bid $75 for it the first time Of course you were hoping it wouldn't go that high :>) So his assumption is that you would still want it on a 2nd chance offer.
               
              Was the first bid a shill? Don't know for sure. But the fact remains that you were willing to pay the $75. So it's a moot point. Not taking sides, just stating my opinion.
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: trainliker
              Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 5:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: eBay question about reserves

               

              I guess I don't "know" the high bidder backed out. However, the sort of things I bid on are so collectable that it is extreeeeemly unlikely somebody is sitting on two of them.

              Even so, if it is a duplicate item, I would then want to have a new auction for it and not an attempted purchase of the duplicate item tainted by activity for the first item. If there is more than one, I might even be inclined to bid less since I would know there is one less bidder to worry about.

              Chuck K.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "George" <gabvball@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi, I came in late to this dissuasion. But I have a question .....How do you know the high bidder backed out? Maybe the seller had more than one of the items? That's why in your example the 2nd chance offer to you was $75, your maximum bid..
              >
              > George
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: ckinzer@...
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 12:08 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The issue isn't what I was "willing to bid".
              >
              > If you "snipe bid" for example, you most certainly do not expect to always end up at the full value of the snipe bid. But many bid reasonably healthy amounts to increase probability of getting the item - on average. So, with honestly handled auction results, on average, you pay far less than you actual bids.
              >
              > In this case, a bidder that backs out, isn't a bidder at all in my opinion. And that bid should be voided. It shouldn't have been there. And I should be offered the item (if at all) under the standard terms.
              >
              > Ebay's own "automatic bidding" jargon is this:
              >
              > "We'll place bids on your behalf using the automatic bid increment amount, which is based on the current high bid. We'll bid only as much as necessary to make sure that you remain the high bidder, or to meet the reserve price, up to your maximum amount."
              >
              > This is neither of those cases since I did not, in fact, 1) remain the high bidder and 2) there was no reserve.
              >
              > So ebay should be setting my bid, once the "high" bidder is effectively removed, to a level based on their rules.
              >
              > Incidentally, If there had been a reserve then my bid, if above the reserve and artificially pulled up due to a bogus or fraud bidder, should be returned to the reserve price. Because that is what would have happened if the auction were on the up and up.
              >
              > I feel that what Ebay does invites fraud shill bids and is therefore a disservice to the ebay community, an embarrasment to our form of captilism, and a blight on the entire planet. It must be stopped, I say. It must be stopped!
              >
              > Chuck Kinzer
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Don Dellmann
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:46 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              >
              >
              > I fail to see the problem. Regardless of what other people bid, you were
              > willing to go the $ 75.00. If you weren't, you shouldn't have bid that
              > high.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <ckinzer@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:11 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              > I have a huge pet peeve about the "second chance offer".
              >
              > Let's say the bid increment is $1.00 and at the end of the auctions the top
              > bids look like this:
              >
              > $76.00 1st (may have bid more, but we will never know. $1.00 is enough to
              > win.
              > $75.00 2nd (me)
              > $35.00 3rd
              >
              > Then I get a "second chance" offer. Almost certainly the high bidder backed
              > out. So in my view, that bid shouldn't count.
              >
              > The "second chance" offer is $75.00, the "bid" I had showing.
              >
              > However, "but for" the high bidder's bid, I would have had the winning bid
              > of $36.00. And that's what the second chance offer should be. Not $75.00.
              >
              > I have suspected (strongly) that certainly sellers have a shill toss in a
              > bid just to pull the second bidder's bid up and then back out to allow this
              > "second chance" offer sham. So it's either a sham, or exploited as a scam
              > and sham.
              >
              > So I never take a second chance offer unless, "but for" the worthless high
              > bid, it would be about the same amount anyway.
              >
              > Chuck Kinzer
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Don Dellmann
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:53 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Chuck Higdon" <vze5crrw1@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:14 PM
              > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay question about reserves
              >
              > > Don,
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I still bid on reserve items, just like the non reserve items. I at
              > least
              > > once had an second offer after a reserve was not made, but must have
              > been
              > > close enough for the seller to offer to sell it. So if you do not bid,
              > > you
              > > have no chance.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at
              > > http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > _____
              >
              > I've had the same thing happen to me, although a "second offer" happens
              > more often when I'm the second high bidder and the winner backs out.
              >
              > On another auction once I bid on a pair of Athearn switchers (an "SW1500"
              > cow/calf set, both powered). I bid $ 25.00 which I though was fair, but
              > there was so little activity that the bidding never went above $ 10.00.
              > After the auction ended I wrote the seller and asked him what the reserve
              > was, and told I had bid $ 25.00, but of course with no other bidders he
              > never saw that. He wrote back saying the reserve had been $ 30.00 (what
              > the
              > set originally sold for new), but if I could have it for $ 25.00 if I
              > wanted
              > it, so I took it.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15247 From: John Barlow Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Dennis,
               
              The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say that speaking as a one-time nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved pennies for one and snoozed on the couch one Saturday night while my father and one of his friends assembled it. It's mid-1950's. I turned 64 in July.
               
              John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
               

              --- On Sun, 10/10/10, pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:

              From: pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Shifter
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM

               
              Hello all,
              I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a booklet titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956", by Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as well as others.

              I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.

              Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              Value at this time?
              The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or something similar, what is this #?
              Before 1970 kits I get lost.

              Thank you in advance
              Dennis


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15249 From: John H Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Dennis and John,

              The Mantua Shifter is shown in the 1952 Mantua catalog on HoSeeker.net. It is not in the 1948 catalog on the same site. Which surprises me as I always thought the Shifter was around before the Mikado, which IS in the `48 catalog! I guess that's because my brother Erv had his Shifter for a while before I received a Mantua Mikado for Christmas of 1949. Actually I think the Shifter and the Mikado were introduced relatively close together and the Shifter had to be around early on in 1949. Dad had built an HO layout in our house in Appleton and we were running Erv's Shifter along with his A-B Varney F-3's and eventually my Mikado for sometime before the layout was torn down when we moved to Green Bay in fall of 1950.

              I now have the Shifter in my possession along with the Varney A&B set and Erv's Lindsay NW2. Come to think of it the NW2 also ran on the Appleton layout. It was the last piece of motive power we bought until the mid 50's when Erv gave me a Little Six and I purchased a Mantua Shark in the 1954 – 1956 era. Dad and Erv did start a much larger and more ambitious, open frame layout in Green Bay but it never got to the operating stage. We returned to Appleton in late 1952 and next had an operating layout in 1954. By that time it was all up to me as Dad had become a Dodge truck factory service rep and was gone all week. Erv by then a teenager with a driver's license was more into cars and females. I only had the Mikado, Little Six and the Shark for motive power back then. Erv's engines hadn't run since the move to Green Bay and I don't know when if he ever did run them up until he gave them to me in April 2009. If he did it was back in the earlier 60's. Nor have they turned any wheels under my ownership and probably won't until they go through the restoration shop. Especially the Shifter as it has a rotted frame. Parts are in stock for repairs but time is needed. Well, I do also need a new cab as one corner is broken off of the rear overhang. I'm presently bidding on one on eBay. I have a couple or so spare plastic cabs but want to keep it all diecast.

              The Shifter, except for substitution of a plastic cab and tender shell remained virtually the same into the 80's. Somewhere during the Tyco Industries/Consolidated Foods era it, along with the Big Six received the weighted plastic boiler from the Prairie. When the Tyler family re-acquired the line, the die cast boiler returned until the end of Mantua in 2001. Interestingly, a 0-4-0 tender loco called the "Pony Loco" was also produced at times. It used the Prairie boiler and an old-time tender from the Mogul and ten wheeler.

              Not sure when the plastic cab and tender shell were first placed into production but if your Shifter is all diecast it must be from the late 40's through mid 50's era. And the padded box rings a bell as I think Erv's Shifter came in one. Can't be sure though as the box is long gone but the #209 does jive with the 1952 catalog and instruction sheet, both of which are on the HO Seeker site.

              Hope all my rambling helps.

              John Hagen


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dennis,
              >  
              > The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say that speaking as a one-time nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved pennies for one and snoozed on the couch one Saturday night while my father and one of his friends assembled it. It's mid-1950's. I turned 64 in July.
              >  
              > John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
              >  
              >
              > --- On Sun, 10/10/10, pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Shifter
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello all,
              > I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              > Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              > Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              > Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a booklet titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956", by Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as well as others.
              >
              > I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.
              >
              > Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              > Value at this time?
              > The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or something similar, what is this #?
              > Before 1970 kits I get lost.
              >
              > Thank you in advance
              > Dennis
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15250 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Hi John H.
               
              It is my understanding that the Shifter did not appear until after the discontinuation of the Busy Bee (pre-Booster) and the Mighty Mite (pre-Shifter), which was 1952. The shifter cab is an exact match with the Mighty Mite's cab. The only difference being the large mounting stud in the inside center of the Mite's cab. I have 3-4 Mites and they are all the same.
               
              Being that I was born in 1970, my information is obviously hear-say (other than the ownership stuff), but I have never seen anything to make me believe otherwise.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 5:33:13 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              Dennis and John,

              The Mantua Shifter is shown in the 1952 Mantua catalog on HoSeeker.net. It is not in the 1948 catalog on the same site. Which surprises me as I always thought the Shifter was around before the Mikado, which IS in the `48 catalog! I guess that's because my brother Erv had his Shifter for a while before I received a Mantua Mikado for Christmas of 1949. Actually I think the Shifter and the Mikado were introduced relatively close together and the Shifter had to be around early on in 1949. Dad had built an HO layout in our house in Appleton and we were running Erv's Shifter along with his A-B Varney F-3's and eventually my Mikado for sometime before the layout was torn down when we moved to Green Bay in fall of 1950.

              I now have the Shifter in my possession along with the Varney A&B set and Erv's Lindsay NW2. Come to think of it the NW2 also ran on the Appleton layout. It was the last piece of motive power we bought until the mid 50's when Erv gave me a Little Six and I purchased a Mantua Shark in the 1954 – 1956 era. Dad and Erv did start a much larger and more ambitious, open frame layout in Green Bay but it never got to the operating stage. We returned to Appleton in late 1952 and next had an operating layout in 1954. By that time it was all up to me as Dad had become a Dodge truck factory service rep and was gone all week. Erv by then a teenager with a driver's license was more into cars and females. I only had the Mikado, Little Six and the Shark for motive power back then. Erv's engines hadn't run since the move to Green Bay and I don't know when if he ever did run them up until he gave them to me in April 2009. If he did it was back in the earlier 60's. Nor have they turned any wheels under my ownership and probably won't until they go through the restoration shop. Especially the Shifter as it has a rotted frame. Parts are in stock for repairs but time is needed. Well, I do also need a new cab as one corner is broken off of the rear overhang. I'm presently bidding on one on eBay. I have a couple or so spare plastic cabs but want to keep it all diecast.

              The Shifter, except for substitution of a plastic cab and tender shell remained virtually the same into the 80's. Somewhere during the Tyco years it, along with the Big Six received the weighted plastic boiler from the Prairie. When the Tyler family re-acquired the line, the die cast boiler returned until the end of Mantua in 2001. Interestingly, a 0-4-0 tender loco called the "Pony Loco" was also produced at times. It used the Prairie boiler and an old-time tender from the Mogul and ten wheeler.

              Not sure when the plastic cab and tender shell were first placed into production but if your Shifter is all diecast it must be from the late 40's through mid 50's era. And the padded box rings a bell as I think Erv's Shifter came in one. Can't be sure though as the box is long gone but the #209 does jive with the 1952 catalog and instruction sheet, both of which are on the HO Seeker site.

              Hope all my rambling helps.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dennis,
              >  
              > The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say that speaking as a one-time nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved pennies for one and snoozed on the couch one Saturday night while my father and one of his friends assembled it. It's mid-1950's. I turned 64 in July.
              >  
              > John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
              >  
              >
              > --- On Sun, 10/10/10, pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Shifter
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello all,
              > I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              > Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              > Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              > Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a booklet titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956", by Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as well as others.
              >
              > I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.
              >
              > Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              > Value at this time?
              > The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or something similar, what is this #?
              > Before 1970 kits I get lost.
              >
              > Thank you in advance
              > Dennis
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15251 From: jay matz Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Sean
              I got my Shifter in 1950 still have it and the box.
              My Dad got the Mike in 48/49 with 4 wheel tender trucks and deep coal bunker, the first all die cast loco.
              The Pacific came out in 1952 with 6 wheel tender trucks.
              The second mike had the 6 wheel tender (from the Pacific)
              The first Booster had a plastic frame and cylinders.Pick up was with one wheel on each side.
              Jay






              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 5:33:13 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              Dennis and John,

              The Mantua Shifter is shown in the 1952 Mantua catalog on HoSeeker.net. It is not in the 1948 catalog on the same site. Which surprises me as I always thought the Shifter was around before the Mikado, which IS in the `48 catalog! I guess that's because my brother Erv had his Shifter for a while before I received a Mantua Mikado for Christmas of 1949. Actually I think the Shifter and the Mikado were introduced relatively close together and the Shifter had to be around early on in 1949. Dad had built an HO layout in our house in Appleton and we were running Erv's Shifter along with his A-B Varney F-3's and eventually my Mikado for sometime before the layout was torn down when we moved to Green Bay in fall of 1950.

              I now have the Shifter in my possession along with the Varney A&B set and Erv's Lindsay NW2. Come to think of it the NW2 also ran on the Appleton layout. It was the last piece of motive power we bought until the mid 50's when Erv gave me a Little Six and I purchased a Mantua Shark in the 1954 – 1956 era. Dad and Erv did start a much larger and more ambitious, open frame layout in Green Bay but it never got to the operating stage. We returned to Appleton in late 1952 and next had an operating layout in 1954. By that time it was all up to me as Dad had become a Dodge truck factory service rep and was gone all week. Erv by then a teenager with a driver's license was more into cars and females. I only had the Mikado, Little Six and the Shark for motive power back then. Erv's engines hadn't run since the move to Green Bay and I don't know when if he ever did run them up until he gave them to me in April 2009. If he did it was back in the earlier 60's. Nor have they turned any wheels under my ownership and probably won't until they go through the restoration shop. Especially the Shifter as it has a rotted frame. Parts are in stock for repairs but time is needed. Well, I do also need a new cab as one corner is broken off of the rear overhang. I'm presently bidding on one on eBay. I have a couple or so spare plastic cabs but want to keep it all diecast.

              The Shifter, except for substitution of a plastic cab and tender shell remained virtually the same into the 80's. Somewhere during the Tyco years it, along with the Big Six received the weighted plastic boiler from the Prairie. When the Tyler family re-acquired the line, the die cast boiler returned until the end of Mantua in 2001. Interestingly, a 0-4-0 tender loco called the "Pony Loco" was also produced at times. It used the Prairie boiler and an old-time tender from the Mogul and ten wheeler.

              Not sure when the plastic cab and tender shell were first placed into production but if your Shifter is all diecast it must be from the late 40's through mid 50's era. And the padded box rings a bell as I think Erv's Shifter came in one. Can't be sure though as the box is long gone but the #209 does jive with the 1952 catalog and instruction sheet, both of which are on the HO Seeker site.

              Hope all my rambling helps.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dennis,
              >  
              > The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say that speaking as a one-time nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved pennies for one and snoozed on the couch one Saturday night while my father and one of his friends assembled it. It's mid-1950's. I turned 64 in July.
              >  
              > John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
              >  
              >
              > --- On Sun, 10/10/10, pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Shifter
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello all,
              > I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              > Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              > Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              > Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a booklet titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956", by Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as well as others.
              >
              > I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.
              >
              > Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              > Value at this time?
              > The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or something similar, what is this #?
              > Before 1970 kits I get lost.
              >
              > Thank you in advance
              > Dennis
              >



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15252 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Hi Jay,
              I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be right about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
               
              The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
               
              I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jay matz <dlw455@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 9:57:52 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              Sean
              I got my Shifter in 1950 still have it and the box.
              My Dad got the Mike in 48/49 with 4 wheel tender trucks and deep coal bunker, the first all die cast loco.
              The Pacific came out in 1952 with 6 wheel tender trucks.
              The second mike had the 6 wheel tender (from the Pacific)
              The first Booster had a plastic frame and cylinders.Pick up was with one wheel on each side.
              Jay






              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 5:33:13 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              Dennis and John,

              The Mantua Shifter is shown in the 1952 Mantua catalog on HoSeeker.net. It is not in the 1948 catalog on the same site. Which surprises me as I always thought the Shifter was around before the Mikado, which IS in the `48 catalog! I guess that's because my brother Erv had his Shifter for a while before I received a Mantua Mikado for Christmas of 1949. Actually I think the Shifter and the Mikado were introduced relatively close together and the Shifter had to be around early on in 1949. Dad had built an HO layout in our house in Appleton and we were running Erv's Shifter along with his A-B Varney F-3's and eventually my Mikado for sometime before the layout was torn down when we moved to Green Bay in fall of 1950.

              I now have the Shifter in my possession along with the Varney A&B set and Erv's Lindsay NW2. Come to think of it the NW2 also ran on the Appleton layout. It was the last piece of motive power we bought until the mid 50's when Erv gave me a Little Six and I purchased a Mantua Shark in the 1954 – 1956 era. Dad and Erv did start a much larger and more ambitious, open frame layout in Green Bay but it never got to the operating stage. We returned to Appleton in late 1952 and next had an operating layout in 1954. By that time it was all up to me as Dad had become a Dodge truck factory service rep and was gone all week. Erv by then a teenager with a driver's license was more into cars and females. I only had the Mikado, Little Six and the Shark for motive power back then. Erv's engines hadn't run since the move to Green Bay and I don't know when if he ever did run them up until he gave them to me in April 2009. If he did it was back in the earlier 60's. Nor have they turned any wheels under my ownership and probably won't until they go through the restoration shop. Especially the Shifter as it has a rotted frame. Parts are in stock for repairs but time is needed. Well, I do also need a new cab as one corner is broken off of the rear overhang. I'm presently bidding on one on eBay. I have a couple or so spare plastic cabs but want to keep it all diecast.

              The Shifter, except for substitution of a plastic cab and tender shell remained virtually the same into the 80's. Somewhere during the Tyco years it, along with the Big Six received the weighted plastic boiler from the Prairie. When the Tyler family re-acquired the line, the die cast boiler returned until the end of Mantua in 2001. Interestingly, a 0-4-0 tender loco called the "Pony Loco" was also produced at times. It used the Prairie boiler and an old-time tender from the Mogul and ten wheeler.

              Not sure when the plastic cab and tender shell were first placed into production but if your Shifter is all diecast it must be from the late 40's through mid 50's era. And the padded box rings a bell as I think Erv's Shifter came in one. Can't be sure though as the box is long gone but the #209 does jive with the 1952 catalog and instruction sheet, both of which are on the HO Seeker site.

              Hope all my rambling helps.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dennis,
              >  
              > The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say that speaking as a one-time nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved pennies for one and snoozed on the couch one Saturday night while my father and one of his friends assembled it. It's mid-1950's. I turned 64 in July.
              >  
              > John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
              >  
              >
              > --- On Sun, 10/10/10, pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Shifter
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello all,
              > I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              > Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              > Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              > Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a booklet titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956", by Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as well as others.
              >
              > I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.
              >
              > Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              > Value at this time?
              > The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or something similar, what is this #?
              > Before 1970 kits I get lost.
              >
              > Thank you in advance
              > Dennis
              >




              Group: vintageHO Message: 15253 From: jay matz Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Stean
              About 1954 I got my first Booster, it had a plastic frame and plastic cylinders it had 2 brass inserts with a tab that fit into the frame for power pickup. Some where I still have it. I should still have the instructions ,I will look for them.
              Jay

              -








              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 5:33:13 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              Dennis and John,

              The Mantua Shifter is shown in the 1952 Mantua catalog on HoSeeker.net. It is not in the 1948 catalog on the same site. Which surprises me as I always thought the Shifter was around before the Mikado, which IS in the `48 catalog! I guess that's because my brother Erv had his Shifter for a while before I received a Mantua Mikado for Christmas of 1949. Actually I think the Shifter and the Mikado were introduced relatively close together and the Shifter had to be around early on in 1949. Dad had built an HO layout in our house in Appleton and we were running Erv's Shifter along with his A-B Varney F-3's and eventually my Mikado for sometime before the layout was torn down when we moved to Green Bay in fall of 1950.

              I now have the Shifter in my possession along with the Varney A&B set and Erv's Lindsay NW2. Come to think of it the NW2 also ran on the Appleton layout. It was the last piece of motive power we bought until the mid 50's when Erv gave me a Little Six and I purchased a Mantua Shark in the 1954 – 1956 era. Dad and Erv did start a much larger and more ambitious, open frame layout in Green Bay but it never got to the operating stage. We returned to Appleton in late 1952 and next had an operating layout in 1954. By that time it was all up to me as Dad had become a Dodge truck factory service rep and was gone all week. Erv by then a teenager with a driver's license was more into cars and females. I only had the Mikado, Little Six and the Shark for motive power back then. Erv's engines hadn't run since the move to Green Bay and I don't know when if he ever did run them up until he gave them to me in April 2009. If he did it was back in the earlier 60's. Nor have they turned any wheels under my ownership and probably won't until they go through the restoration shop. Especially the Shifter as it has a rotted frame. Parts are in stock for repairs but time is needed. Well, I do also need a new cab as one corner is broken off of the rear overhang. I'm presently bidding on one on eBay. I have a couple or so spare plastic cabs but want to keep it all diecast.

              The Shifter, except for substitution of a plastic cab and tender shell remained virtually the same into the 80's. Somewhere during the Tyco years it, along with the Big Six received the weighted plastic boiler from the Prairie. When the Tyler family re-acquired the line, the die cast boiler returned until the end of Mantua in 2001. Interestingly, a 0-4-0 tender loco called the "Pony Loco" was also produced at times. It used the Prairie boiler and an old-time tender from the Mogul and ten wheeler.

              Not sure when the plastic cab and tender shell were first placed into production but if your Shifter is all diecast it must be from the late 40's through mid 50's era. And the padded box rings a bell as I think Erv's Shifter came in one. Can't be sure though as the box is long gone but the #209 does jive with the 1952 catalog and instruction sheet, both of which are on the HO Seeker site.

              Hope all my rambling helps.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dennis,
              >  
              > The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say that speaking as a one-time nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved pennies for one and snoozed on the couch one Saturday night while my father and one of his friends assembled it. It's mid-1950's. I turned 64 in July.
              >  
              > John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
              >  
              >
              > --- On Sun, 10/10/10, pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Shifter
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello all,
              > I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              > Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              > Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              > Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a booklet titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956", by Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as well as others.
              >
              > I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.
              >
              > Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              > Value at this time?
              > The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or something similar, what is this #?
              > Before 1970 kits I get lost.
              >
              > Thank you in advance
              > Dennis
              >





              Group: vintageHO Message: 15254 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Ray,
               
              Here are three images I have on my flickr. The first below is of a kitbash I have (not finished 2-4-4) that is the only example I have photographed that you can clearly see the drivers are metal and the chassis and steam chest are diecast. The other engines have painted parts and therefore less obvious.
               
               
              This 0-6-0 Booster with 6-wheels is painted, (I think they actually calledthe 0-6-0 something else, but it came out after the 0-4-0 and it still had the diecast chassis and steam chest with the metal drivers - all six):
               
               
              This is an 0-4-0 that I modified myself, but started with an all-diecast 0-4-0 Booster with metal wheels:
               
               
              These next two are of the early instruction sheet photos:
               
               
              The first one I have never actually seen as it has a slanted tank. I would sure love to come accross that one! Hard to tell, but they look to be all diecast to me.
               
              I would believe the plastic chassis could have come out in 1964 or later, but not 1954.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jay matz <dlw455@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 10:31:10 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              Stean
              About 1954 I got my first Booster, it had a plastic frame and plastic cylinders it had 2 brass inserts with a tab that fit into the frame for power pickup. Some where I still have it. I should still have the instructions ,I will look for them.
              Jay

              -








              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 5:33:13 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              Dennis and John,

              The Mantua Shifter is shown in the 1952 Mantua catalog on HoSeeker.net. It is not in the 1948 catalog on the same site. Which surprises me as I always thought the Shifter was around before the Mikado, which IS in the `48 catalog! I guess that's because my brother Erv had his Shifter for a while before I received a Mantua Mikado for Christmas of 1949. Actually I think the Shifter and the Mikado were introduced relatively close together and the Shifter had to be around early on in 1949. Dad had built an HO layout in our house in Appleton and we were running Erv's Shifter along with his A-B Varney F-3's and eventually my Mikado for sometime before the layout was torn down when we moved to Green Bay in fall of 1950.

              I now have the Shifter in my possession along with the Varney A&B set and Erv's Lindsay NW2. Come to think of it the NW2 also ran on the Appleton layout. It was the last piece of motive power we bought until the mid 50's when Erv gave me a Little Six and I purchased a Mantua Shark in the 1954 – 1956 era. Dad and Erv did start a much larger and more ambitious, open frame layout in Green Bay but it never got to the operating stage. We returned to Appleton in late 1952 and next had an operating layout in 1954. By that time it was all up to me as Dad had become a Dodge truck factory service rep and was gone all week. Erv by then a teenager with a driver's license was more into cars and females. I only had the Mikado, Little Six and the Shark for motive power back then. Erv's engines hadn't run since the move to Green Bay and I don't know when if he ever did run them up until he gave them to me in April 2009. If he did it was back in the earlier 60's. Nor have they turned any wheels under my ownership and probably won't until they go through the restoration shop. Especially the Shifter as it has a rotted frame. Parts are in stock for repairs but time is needed. Well, I do also need a new cab as one corner is broken off of the rear overhang. I'm presently bidding on one on eBay. I have a couple or so spare plastic cabs but want to keep it all diecast.

              The Shifter, except for substitution of a plastic cab and tender shell remained virtually the same into the 80's. Somewhere during the Tyco years it, along with the Big Six received the weighted plastic boiler from the Prairie. When the Tyler family re-acquired the line, the die cast boiler returned until the end of Mantua in 2001. Interestingly, a 0-4-0 tender loco called the "Pony Loco" was also produced at times. It used the Prairie boiler and an old-time tender from the Mogul and ten wheeler.

              Not sure when the plastic cab and tender shell were first placed into production but if your Shifter is all diecast it must be from the late 40's through mid 50's era. And the padded box rings a bell as I think Erv's Shifter came in one. Can't be sure though as the box is long gone but the #209 does jive with the 1952 catalog and instruction sheet, both of which are on the HO Seeker site.

              Hope all my rambling helps.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dennis,
              >  
              > The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say that speaking as a one-time nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved pennies for one and snoozed on the couch one Saturday night while my father and one of his friends assembled it. It's mid-1950's. I turned 64 in July.
              >  
              > John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
              >  
              >
              > --- On Sun, 10/10/10, pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Shifter
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello all,
              > I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              > Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              > Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              > Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a booklet titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956", by Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as well as others.
              >
              > I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.
              >
              > Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              > Value at this time?
              > The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or something similar, what is this #?
              > Before 1970 kits I get lost.
              >
              > Thank you in advance
              > Dennis
              >






              Group: vintageHO Message: 15255 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              As I recall, the plastic cabs and tenders appeared around 1958 or
              thereabouts. The "Booster" was an 0-4-0T, the "Shifter" was an 0-4-0 with
              tender. The 0-6-0T was the "Little Six", the 0-6-0 with tender was the "Big
              Six".Prior to 1948 the locos were the "composite" brass and zamak
              construction. 0-4-0 was the "Mighty Mite", 0-4-0T was the "Busy Bee" All
              were descended from the"Goat" which was the camelback 0-4-0. The "Mighty
              Mite" can be considered the transition piece as it had the die cast cab used
              on the Shifter and Big Six.
              Glenn Joesten

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "John H" <sprinthag@...>
              Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 2:33 AM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

              > Dennis and John,
              >
              > The Mantua Shifter is shown in the 1952 Mantua catalog on HoSeeker.net. It
              > is not in the 1948 catalog on the same site. Which surprises me as I
              > always thought the Shifter was around before the Mikado, which IS in the
              > `48 catalog! I guess that's because my brother Erv had his Shifter for a
              > while before I received a Mantua Mikado for Christmas of 1949. Actually I
              > think the Shifter and the Mikado were introduced relatively close together
              > and the Shifter had to be around early on in 1949. Dad had built an HO
              > layout in our house in Appleton and we were running Erv's Shifter along
              > with his A-B Varney F-3's and eventually my Mikado for sometime before the
              > layout was torn down when we moved to Green Bay in fall of 1950.
              >
              > I now have the Shifter in my possession along with the Varney A&B set and
              > Erv's Lindsay NW2. Come to think of it the NW2 also ran on the Appleton
              > layout. It was the last piece of motive power we bought until the mid 50's
              > when Erv gave me a Little Six and I purchased a Mantua Shark in the 1954 -
              > 1956 era. Dad and Erv did start a much larger and more ambitious, open
              > frame layout in Green Bay but it never got to the operating stage. We
              > returned to Appleton in late 1952 and next had an operating layout in
              > 1954. By that time it was all up to me as Dad had become a Dodge truck
              > factory service rep and was gone all week. Erv by then a teenager with a
              > driver's license was more into cars and females. I only had the Mikado,
              > Little Six and the Shark for motive power back then. Erv's engines hadn't
              > run since the move to Green Bay and I don't know when if he ever did run
              > them up until he gave them to me in April 2009. If he did it was back in
              > the earlier 60's. Nor have they turned any wheels under my ownership and
              > probably won't until they go through the restoration shop. Especially the
              > Shifter as it has a rotted frame. Parts are in stock for repairs but time
              > is needed. Well, I do also need a new cab as one corner is broken off of
              > the rear overhang. I'm presently bidding on one on eBay. I have a couple
              > or so spare plastic cabs but want to keep it all diecast.
              >
              > The Shifter, except for substitution of a plastic cab and tender shell
              > remained virtually the same into the 80's. Somewhere during the Tyco years
              > it, along with the Big Six received the weighted plastic boiler from the
              > Prairie. When the Tyler family re-acquired the line, the die cast boiler
              > returned until the end of Mantua in 2001. Interestingly, a 0-4-0 tender
              > loco called the "Pony Loco" was also produced at times. It used the
              > Prairie boiler and an old-time tender from the Mogul and ten wheeler.
              >
              > Not sure when the plastic cab and tender shell were first placed into
              > production but if your Shifter is all diecast it must be from the late
              > 40's through mid 50's era. And the padded box rings a bell as I think
              > Erv's Shifter came in one. Can't be sure though as the box is long gone
              > but the #209 does jive with the 1952 catalog and instruction sheet, both
              > of which are on the HO Seeker site.
              >
              > Hope all my rambling helps.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Dennis,
              >> Â
              >> The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say that speaking as a
              >> one-time nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved pennies for one and
              >> snoozed on the couch one Saturday night while my father and one of his
              >> friends assembled it. It's mid-1950's. I turned 64 in July.
              >> Â
              >> John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
              >> Â
              >>
              >> --- On Sun, 10/10/10, pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> From: pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...>
              >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Shifter
              >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >> Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM
              >>
              >>
              >> Â
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Hello all,
              >> I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua
              >> Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              >> Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              >> Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              >> Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a
              >> booklet titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956",
              >> by Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as
              >> well as others.
              >>
              >> I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.
              >>
              >> Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              >> Value at this time?
              >> The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or
              >> something similar, what is this #?
              >> Before 1970 kits I get lost.
              >>
              >> Thank you in advance
              >> Dennis
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15256 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Glenn,
              Although I was not sure on the year, that is how I understand the lineage and history to be as well. That's right.. the "Little Six" I knew it was different.
               
              However, I thought the Mighty Mite was around at the same time as the Goat, but the Goat most certainly could have been first as you state. The Goat, Mite and Bee all share the same chassis and drive parts which makes for an easy transition between each.
               
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "glenn476@..." <glenn476@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 11:12:14 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              As I recall, the plastic cabs and tenders appeared around 1958 or
              thereabouts. The "Booster" was an 0-4-0T, the "Shifter" was an 0-4-0 with
              tender. The 0-6-0T was the "Little Six", the 0-6-0 with tender was the "Big
              Six".Prior to 1948 the locos were the "composite" brass and zamak
              construction. 0-4-0 was the "Mighty Mite", 0-4-0T was the "Busy Bee" All
              were descended from the"Goat" which was the camelback 0-4-0. The "Mighty
              Mite" can be considered the transition piece as it had the die cast cab used
              on the Shifter and Big Six.
              Glenn Joesten

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "John H" <sprinthag@...>
              Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 2:33 AM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

              > Dennis and John,
              >
              > The Mantua Shifter is shown in the 1952 Mantua catalog on HoSeeker.net. It
              > is not in the 1948 catalog on the same site. Which surprises me as I
              > always thought the Shifter was around before the Mikado, which IS in the
              > `48 catalog! I guess that's because my brother Erv had his Shifter for a
              > while before I received a Mantua Mikado for Christmas of 1949. Actually I
              > think the Shifter and the Mikado were introduced relatively close together
              > and the Shifter had to be around early on in 1949. Dad had built an HO
              > layout in our house in Appleton and we were running Erv's Shifter along
              > with his A-B Varney F-3's and eventually my Mikado for sometime before the
              > layout was
              torn down when we moved to Green Bay in fall of 1950.
              >
              > I now have the Shifter in my possession along with the Varney A&B set and
              > Erv's Lindsay NW2. Come to think of it the NW2 also ran on the Appleton
              > layout. It was the last piece of motive power we bought until the mid 50's
              > when Erv gave me a Little Six and I purchased a Mantua Shark in the 1954 -
              > 1956 era. Dad and Erv did start a much larger and more ambitious, open
              > frame layout in Green Bay but it never got to the operating stage. We
              > returned to Appleton in late 1952 and next had an operating layout in
              > 1954. By that time it was all up to me as Dad had become a Dodge truck
              > factory service rep and was gone all week. Erv by then a teenager with a
              > driver's license was more into cars and females. I only had the Mikado,
              > Little Six and the Shark for motive power back then. Erv's engines hadn't
              > run since the move to Green Bay and I don't know when if he ever did run
              > them up until he gave them to me in April 2009. If he did it was back in
              > the earlier 60's. Nor have they turned any wheels under my ownership and
              > probably won't until they go through the restoration shop. Especially the
              > Shifter as it has a rotted frame. Parts are in stock for repairs but time
              > is needed. Well, I do also need a new cab as one corner is broken off of
              > the rear overhang. I'm presently bidding on one on eBay. I have a couple
              > or so spare plastic cabs but want to keep it all diecast.
              >
              > The Shifter, except for substitution of a plastic cab and tender shell
              > remained virtually the same into the 80's. Somewhere during the Tyco years
              > it, along with the Big Six received the weighted plastic boiler from the
              > Prairie. When the Tyler family re-acquired the line, the die
              cast boiler
              > returned until the end of Mantua in 2001. Interestingly, a 0-4-0 tender
              > loco called the "Pony Loco" was also produced at times. It used the
              > Prairie boiler and an old-time tender from the Mogul and ten wheeler.
              >
              > Not sure when the plastic cab and tender shell were first placed into
              > production but if your Shifter is all diecast it must be from the late
              > 40's through mid 50's era. And the padded box rings a bell as I think
              > Erv's Shifter came in one. Can't be sure though as the box is long gone
              > but the #209 does jive with the 1952 catalog and instruction sheet, both
              > of which are on the HO Seeker site.
              >
              > Hope all my rambling helps.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John
              Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Dennis,
              >> Â
              >> The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say that speaking as a
              >> one-time nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved pennies for one and
              >> snoozed on the couch one Saturday night while my father and one of his
              >> friends assembled it. It's mid-1950's. I turned 64 in July.
              >> Â
              >> John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
              >> Â
              >>
              >> --- On Sun, 10/10/10, pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> From: pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...>
              >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Shifter
              >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >> Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM
              >>
              >>
              >>
              Â
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Hello all,
              >> I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua
              >> Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              >> Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              >> Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              >> Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a
              >> booklet titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956",
              >> by Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as
              >> well as others.
              >>
              >> I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.
              >>
              >> Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              >> Value at this time?
              >> The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or
              >> something similar,
              what is this #?
              >> Before 1970 kits I get lost.
              >>
              >> Thank you in advance
              >> Dennis
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15257 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              No--the Mite was the last of the three to appear--unless there were earlier Mites with stamped/composite cabs.
               
               
              I also have an A-B set of the F-3's--AND a set of the John English ALCo's--(one gearbox/truck has Zamak Rot.  I guess that both Gordon Varney and John English expected us to put opur locos to work on layouts when we finished building them,  as none of the engines will fit in their boxes when couplers are installed.  I have a Scalelite mars light kit to install in the Varney--which will take care of the missing numnber boards.  The ALCo has the Scalelite njumber boards installed.   gj

              Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 8:29 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

              Glenn,
              Although I was not sure on the year, that is how I understand the lineage and history to be as well. That's right.. the "Little Six" I knew it was different.
               
              However, I thought the Mighty Mite was around at the same time as the Goat, but the Goat most certainly could have been first as you state. The Goat, Mite and Bee all share the same chassis and drive parts which makes for an easy transition between each.
               
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: "glenn476@..." <glenn476@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 11:12:14 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              As I recall, the plastic cabs and tenders appeared around 1958 or
              thereabouts. The "Booster" was an 0-4-0T, the "Shifter" was an 0-4-0 with
              tender. The 0-6-0T was the "Little Six", the 0-6-0 with tender was the "Big
              Six".Prior to 1948 the locos were the "composite" brass and zamak
              construction. 0-4-0 was the "Mighty Mite", 0-4-0T was the "Busy Bee" All
              were descended from the"Goat" which was the camelback 0-4-0. The "Mighty
              Mite" can be considered the transition piece as it had the die cast cab used
              on the Shifter and Big Six.
              Glenn Joesten

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "John H" <sprinthag@...>
              Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 2:33 AM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

              > Dennis and John,
              >
              > The
              Mantua Shifter is shown in the 1952 Mantua catalog on HoSeeker.net. It
              > is not
              in the 1948 catalog on the same site. Which surprises me as I
              > always
              thought the Shifter was around before the Mikado, which IS in the
              > `48
              catalog! I guess that's because my brother Erv had his Shifter for a
              >
              while before I received a Mantua Mikado for Christmas of 1949. Actually I
              > think the Shifter and the Mikado were introduced relatively close
              together
              > and the Shifter had to be around early on in 1949. Dad had
              built an HO
              > layout in our house in Appleton and we were running Erv's
              Shifter along
              > with his A-B Varney F-3's and eventually my Mikado for
              sometime before the
              > layout was torn down when we moved to Green Bay in
              fall of 1950.
              >
              > I now have the Shifter in my possession along with
              the Varney A&B set and
              > Erv's Lindsay NW2. Come to think of it the
              NW2 also ran on the Appleton
              > layout. It was the last piece of motive
              power we bought until the mid 50's
              > when Erv gave me a Little Six and I
              purchased a Mantua Shark in the 1954 -
              > 1956 era. Dad and Erv did start
              a much larger and more ambitious, open
              > frame layout in Green Bay but it
              never got to the operating stage. We
              > returned to Appleton in late 1952
              and next had an operating layout in
              > 1954. By that time it was all up to
              me as Dad had become a Dodge truck
              > factory service rep and was gone all
              week. Erv by then a teenager with a
              > driver's license was more into cars
              and females. I only had the Mikado,
              > Little Six and the Shark for motive
              power back then. Erv's engines hadn't
              > run since the move to Green Bay
              and I don't know when if he ever did run
              > them up until he gave them to
              me in April 2009. If he did it was back in
              > the earlier 60's. Nor have
              they turned any wheels under my ownership and
              > probably won't until they
              go through the restoration shop. Especially the
              > Shifter as it has a
              rotted frame. Parts are in stock for repairs but time
              > is needed. Well,
              I do also need a new cab as one corner is broken off of
              > the rear
              overhang. I'm presently bidding on one on eBay. I have a couple
              > or so
              spare plastic cabs but want to keep it all diecast.
              >
              > The Shifter,
              except for substitution of a plastic cab and tender shell
              > remained
              virtually the same into the 80's. Somewhere during the Tyco years
              > it,
              along with the Big Six received the weighted plastic boiler from the
              >
              Prairie. When the Tyler family re-acquired the line, the die cast boiler
              > returned until the end of Mantua in 2001. Interestingly, a 0-4-0 tender
              > loco called the "Pony Loco" was also produced at times. It used the
              > Prairie boiler and an old-time tender from the Mogul and ten
              wheeler.
              >
              > Not sure when the plastic cab and tender shell were
              first placed into
              > production but if your Shifter is all diecast it must
              be from the late
              > 40's through mid 50's era. And the padded box rings a
              bell as I think
              > Erv's Shifter came in one. Can't be sure though as the
              box is long gone
              > but the #209 does jive with the 1952 catalog and
              instruction sheet, both
              > of which are on the HO Seeker
              site.
              >
              > Hope all my rambling helps.
              >
              > John
              Hagen
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In
              href="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com">vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              Dennis,
              >> Â
              >> The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say
              that speaking as a
              >> one-time nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved
              pennies for one and
              >> snoozed on the couch one Saturday night while
              my father and one of his
              >> friends assembled it. It's mid-1950's. I
              turned 64 in July.
              >> Â
              >> John Barlow
              (jdenver4150@...)
              >> Â
              >>
              >> --- On Sun, 10/10/10,
              pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> From: pineconelumberng@...
              <pineconelumberng@...>
              >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua
              Shifter
              >> To:
              rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com">vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >>
              Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM
              >>
              >>
              >>
              Â
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Hello all,
              >> I have
              been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua
              >>
              Shifter all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              >> Box bottom
              blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              >> Inside of top is photo
              and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              >> Was in box with
              other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a
              >> booklet
              titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956",
              >> by
              Gorden Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as
              >> well as others.
              >>
              >> I have a home for the
              rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.
              >>
              >> Would
              this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              >> Value at this
              time?
              >> The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date
              stamp or
              >> something similar, what is this #?
              >> Before 1970
              kits I get lost.
              >>
              >> Thank you in advance
              >>
              Dennis
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups
              Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15258 From: John Hagen Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Hi Sean,
               
              About half an hour ago I was perusing at the September, 1951 issue of Model Railroader and its article titled "Detailing Mantuas Shifter" by Bill Smith. It contains several photos of the Shifter and it is the same loco that is being spoken of here. Considering magazine lead time and writing time let alone detailing and planning time this article had to have been in process since sometime in late 1950/early 1951.
               
              It's a funny thing about human memory. I have difficulty remembering where I last set my coffee but can remember Erv's Shifter running on that original HO layout in Appleton in 1949. As much as dad tried he could never get the optional valve gear to stay in time which led to its being removed. I also remember crawling around on the train table back when it was a Lionel "O" gauge set up and pushing the Lionel scale PRR 0-6-0 along the tracks (maybe age 4?). That was before dad's short lived foray into "O" scale and its hand-laid track with dyed ties and the built but never painted GMC models NW2 that stood on top of the maybe twelve feet of track for sometime before the switch to HO.
               
              We had a steep, like 4% grade and the big contest was which could pull the most cars up that Saluda-like grade. My Mike or Erv's diecast, gear driven eight wheel drive Varney F3-A. Dang Varney always did just a bit better albeit with a lot more noise. And that grade disappeared with the Appleton layout in 1950 never to return again.
               
              My guess concerning the Bee/Mite production would be that Mantua did a "build out" to use parts already in stock. By 1948 the Roundhouse 0-6-0 was in production and, along with Varney's diecast Dockside, Mantuas relatively plain-Jane models were likely considered old hat for the times and the Shifter may have been pused into production while  the others were still being built.
               
              John Hagen

              --- On Mon, 10/11/10, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 8:19 AM

               
              Hi John H.
               
              It is my understanding that the Shifter did not appear until after the discontinuation of the Busy Bee (pre-Booster) and the Mighty Mite (pre-Shifter), which was 1952. The shifter cab is an exact match with the Mighty Mite's cab. The only difference being the large mounting stud in the inside center of the Mite's cab. I have 3-4 Mites and they are all the same.
               
              Being that I was born in 1970, my information is obviously hear-say (other than the ownership stuff), but I have never seen anything to make me believe otherwise.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15259 From: CinderCrusher Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              I purchased my Booster "new" in the early fifties for $9.95 as a second locomotive for my Varney Dockside. The Dockside is still running today, numbered #1, and the Booster today is only a static display model, numbered #2. The reason it is static is because not only did it have the plastic frame and cylinders, but it had a plastic driver on each axle for one wheel pickup on each side. The problem was that the axle wasn't knurled and the plastic driver would slip out of quarter making it impossible to keep it running.

              Some day I might rebuild it with a diecast frame and Shifter drivers just for the memories.

              Bill DeFoe
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15260 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus of
              the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter


              Hi Jay,
              I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              right
              about the Pacific and second issue Mike.


              The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass
              wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.

              I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.

              Sean
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!




              ________________________________
              From: jay matz <dlw455@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 9:57:52 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter


              Sean
              I got my Shifter in 1950 still have it and the box.
              My Dad got the Mike in 48/49 with 4 wheel tender trucks and deep coal
              bunker,
              the first all die cast loco.
              The Pacific came out in 1952 with 6 wheel tender trucks.
              The second mike had the 6 wheel tender (from the Pacific)
              The first Booster had a plastic frame and cylinders.Pick up was with one
              wheel
              on each side.
              Jay




              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ________________________________
              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 5:33:13 AM
              >Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              >
              >
              >Dennis and John,
              >
              >The Mantua Shifter is shown in the 1952 Mantua catalog on HoSeeker.net. It
              >is
              >not in the 1948 catalog on the same site. Which surprises me as I always
              >thought
              >the Shifter was around before the Mikado, which IS in the `48 catalog! I
              >guess
              >that's because my brother Erv had his Shifter for a while before I received
              >a
              >Mantua Mikado for Christmas of 1949. Actually I think the Shifter and the
              >Mikado
              >were introduced relatively close together and the Shifter had to be around
              >early
              >on in 1949. Dad had built an HO layout in our house in Appleton and we were
              >running Erv's Shifter along with his A-B Varney F-3's and eventually my
              >Mikado
              >for sometime before the layout was torn down when we moved to Green Bay in
              >fall
              >of 1950.
              >
              >I now have the Shifter in my possession along with the Varney A&B set and
              >Erv's
              >Lindsay NW2. Come to think of it the NW2 also ran on the Appleton layout.
              >It was
              >the last piece of motive power we bought until the mid 50's when Erv gave
              >me a
              >Little Six and I purchased a Mantua Shark in the 1954 – 1956 era. Dad and
              >Erv
              >did start a much larger and more ambitious, open frame layout in Green Bay
              >but
              >it never got to the operating stage. We returned to Appleton in late 1952
              >and
              >next had an operating layout in 1954. By that time it was all up to me as
              >Dad
              >had become a Dodge truck factory service rep and was gone all week. Erv by
              >then
              >a teenager with a driver's license was more into cars and females. I only
              >had
              >the Mikado, Little Six and the Shark for motive power back then. Erv's
              >engines
              >hadn't run since the move to Green Bay and I don't know when if he ever did
              >run
              >them up until he gave them to me in April 2009. If he did it was back in
              >the
              >earlier 60's. Nor have they turned any wheels under my ownership and
              >probably
              >won't until they go through the restoration shop. Especially the Shifter as
              >it
              >has a rotted frame. Parts are in stock for repairs but time is needed.
              >Well, I
              >do also need a new cab as one corner is broken off of the rear overhang.
              >I'm
              >presently bidding on one on eBay. I have a couple or so spare plastic cabs
              >but
              >want to keep it all diecast.
              >
              >The Shifter, except for substitution of a plastic cab and tender shell
              >remained
              >virtually the same into the 80's. Somewhere during the Tyco years it, along
              >with
              >the Big Six received the weighted plastic boiler from the Prairie. When the
              >Tyler family re-acquired the line, the die cast boiler returned until the
              >end of
              >Mantua in 2001. Interestingly, a 0-4-0 tender loco called the "Pony Loco"
              >was
              >also produced at times. It used the Prairie boiler and an old-time tender
              >from
              >the Mogul and ten wheeler.
              >
              >
              >Not sure when the plastic cab and tender shell were first placed into
              >production
              >but if your Shifter is all diecast it must be from the late 40's through
              >mid
              >50's era. And the padded box rings a bell as I think Erv's Shifter came in
              >one.
              >Can't be sure though as the box is long gone but the #209 does jive with
              >the
              >1952 catalog and instruction sheet, both of which are on the HO Seeker
              >site.
              >
              >Hope all my rambling helps.
              >
              >John Hagen
              >
              >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Barlow <jdenver4150@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Dennis,
              >> Â
              >> The Mantua Shifter kit came out in 1955. I say that speaking as a
              >> one-time
              >>nine-year-old boy who scraped and saved pennies for one and snoozed on the
              >>couch
              >>one Saturday night while my father and one of his friends assembled it.
              >>It's
              >>mid-1950's. I turned 64 in July.
              >> Â
              >> John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
              >> Â
              >>
              >> --- On Sun, 10/10/10, pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> From: pineconelumberng@... <pineconelumberng@...>
              >> Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua Shifter
              >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >> Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 6:30 PM
              >>
              >>
              >> Â
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Hello all,
              >> I have been going through another box of items and have found a Mantua
              >> Shifter
              >>all die cast Kit#209, price $15.95, in the box.
              >>
              >> Box bottom blue, top yellow leathery looking and padded.
              >> Inside of top is photo and description. Also blue stamped numbers 29135.
              >> Was in box with other Varney, atlas,and more tin Vans kits as well as a
              >> booklet
              >>titled," Model Locomotives and Rolling Stock, New Edition 1956", by Gorden
              >>Varney and "How to run your Revell Ho Electric trains 1958" as well as
              >>others.
              >>
              >> I have a home for the rolling stock but have some questions on the Loco.
              >>
              >> Would this place this Shifter kit in the 50's?
              >> Value at this time?
              >> The blue #s I mentioned look as if they were done by a date stamp or
              >> something
              >>similar, what is this #?
              >> Before 1970 kits I get lost.
              >>
              >> Thank you in advance
              >> Dennis
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15261 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/11/2010
              Subject: Late 40's Varney stock car
              This is the one in the catalogs showing "all new plastic" sides.
              The one I have has warped sides.
              Both sides to the left of the door as you're looking at the side.

              Now, before I go out and re-invent the wheel, anybody have a good procedure for straightening them out?

              Like, clamping between wood blocks and 5 minutes at 150 degrees?

              I hand-straigthtened them, looks like the bow end-to-end is livable.

              I have both sides off.

              Thanks!
              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15262 From: Russ Shiel Date: 10/12/2010
              Subject: Quality Craft build sheet
              H'lo HO-ers! I seek a .jpg or hard copy of the instruction sheet for a Quality
              Craft Kit T-3 89' ATSF bi-level auto rack. I've checked HOSeeker, not found. It
              was the only one of a dozen vintage car kits recently arrived lacking a build
              sheet. Happy to reimburse copy/postage costs if provided in hard copy. chrs!
              Russ
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15263 From: Denny Anspach Date: 10/12/2010
              Subject: Late 40's Varney stock car
              I have yet to come across a '40s Varney stock car whose sides could be
              saved without putting-up with disabling shrinkage and distortion. I
              have a raft of the kits, sides, and incomplete models, hoping at one
              time to be able to find two salvageable sides to make at least one
              good model. I seem to remember that the sides were molded from some
              kind of vegetable-fiber-based plastic that cannot, or is at least
              resistant to, any sort of restoration.

              Denny

              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Sacramento
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15264 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Late 40's Varney stock car
              The sides are, I believe, made of Tennite, same as the Varney roofwalks that are prone to warpage too.

              I, too, have many of these cars, and have wondered about a way to fix them.

              I have a few ideas, including using a pot of boiling water to make steam to allow me to warp them back, but have not tried it yet. Any thoughts on that?

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Tue, 10/12/10, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

              From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Late 40's Varney stock car
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, October 12, 2010, 10:58 AM

               

              I have yet to come across a '40s Varney stock car whose sides could be
              saved without putting-up with disabling shrinkage and distortion. I
              have a raft of the kits, sides, and incomplete models, hoping at one
              time to be able to find two salvageable sides to make at least one
              good model. I seem to remember that the sides were molded from some
              kind of vegetable-fiber-based plastic that cannot, or is at least
              resistant to, any sort of restoration.

              Denny

              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Sacramento

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15265 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/12/2010
              Subject: Late 40's Varney stock car
              That was quick decison time....
              The car is now scrapped.
              However, I have an old (almost looke Binkley, but not quite) car with sides, ends, roof, roofwalk, but no trucks, end beams, end platforms, underbody detail.......all Varney parts have been stripped off, and installed on this car.....including Mantua couplers (another set of Bakers in the parts bin), so one car gave the ultimate sacrifice to save another.

              Dave


              > I have yet to come across a '40s Varney stock car whose sides could be
              > saved without putting-up with disabling shrinkage and distortion. I
              > have a raft of the kits, sides, and incomplete models, hoping at one
              > time to be able to find two salvageable sides to make at least one
              > good model. I seem to remember that the sides were molded from some
              > kind of vegetable-fiber-based plastic that cannot, or is at least
              > resistant to, any sort of restoration.
              >
              > Denny
              >
              > Denny S. Anspach, MD
              > Sacramento
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15266 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/12/2010
              Subject: Late 40's Varney stock car
              Done, except for letter boards.
              >
              > That was quick decison time....
              > The car is now scrapped.
              > However, I have an old (almost looke Binkley, but not quite) car with sides, ends, roof, roofwalk, but no trucks, end beams, end platforms, underbody detail.......all Varney parts have been stripped off, and installed on this car.....including Mantua couplers (another set of Bakers in the parts bin), so one car gave the ultimate sacrifice to save another.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              > > I have yet to come across a '40s Varney stock car whose sides could be
              > > saved without putting-up with disabling shrinkage and distortion. I
              > > have a raft of the kits, sides, and incomplete models, hoping at one
              > > time to be able to find two salvageable sides to make at least one
              > > good model. I seem to remember that the sides were molded from some
              > > kind of vegetable-fiber-based plastic that cannot, or is at least
              > > resistant to, any sort of restoration.
              > >
              > > Denny
              > >
              > > Denny S. Anspach, MD
              > > Sacramento
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15267 From: John H Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              > We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus of
              > the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              >
              >
              > Hi Jay,
              > I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              > right
              > about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
              >
              >
              > The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass
              > wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              > states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
              >
              > I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
              >
              > Sean
              > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15268 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.

              Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg

              Note frame and cylinders.
              Nylon.

              Dave



              > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
              > >
              > > We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus of
              > > the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              > >
              > > Don
              > >
              > > Don Dellmann
              > > don.dellmann@
              > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > Owner
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@>
              > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jay,
              > > I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              > > right
              > > about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
              > >
              > >
              > > The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass
              > > wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              > > states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
              > >
              > > I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
              > >
              > > Sean
              > > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15269 From: John H Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter morphed into Mantua Booster and morphing into Var
              Yeah well that's what happens when I go web surfing at 3 a.m. I didn't notice the (rather) light red printing (maybe even stamped on later) that states "With Nylon Parts"

              http://hoseeker.net/gallery/index.php?album=mantuatyco%2Fmantuasteamengines&image=mantua040booster1952pg2.jpg

              Live and learn.

              Never knew the Booster had such things but then, I never took a good look at a Booster. Been all through Shifters, original Little Sixes, Big Sixes, Prairies, Mikados, a couple of Pacifics and 2-6-6-2's but I never had, or desired to have, a Booster. Maybe that's acause I prefer my 0-4-0T's to be of B&O heritage although I never owned a Varney Dockside until about six months ago when I finally acquired an early, never assembled diecast example. BTW, anyone know where I can find a Central Valley valve gear kit for one? Or if not, anything that will work?

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
              >
              > I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.
              >
              > Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              > http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg
              >
              > Note frame and cylinders.
              > Nylon.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              >
              > > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15270 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter morphed into Mantua Booster and morphing into Var
              And, further, by 1960-, frame, retainer, cylinder block and drivers are die-cast.
              http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua213booster040sidetank1960pg1.jpg

              You think maybe there was a problem using nylon?

              Ya think?

              Dave


              > Yeah well that's what happens when I go web surfing at 3 a.m. I didn't notice the (rather) light red printing (maybe even stamped on later) that states "With Nylon Parts"
              >
              > http://hoseeker.net/gallery/index.php?album=mantuatyco%2Fmantuasteamengines&image=mantua040booster1952pg2.jpg
              >
              > Live and learn.
              >
              > Never knew the Booster had such things but then, I never took a good look at a Booster. Been all through Shifters, original Little Sixes, Big Sixes, Prairies, Mikados, a couple of Pacifics and 2-6-6-2's but I never had, or desired to have, a Booster. Maybe that's acause I prefer my 0-4-0T's to be of B&O heritage although I never owned a Varney Dockside until about six months ago when I finally acquired an early, never assembled diecast example. BTW, anyone know where I can find a Central Valley valve gear kit for one? Or if not, anything that will work?
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.
              > >
              > > Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              > > http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg
              > >
              > > Note frame and cylinders.
              > > Nylon.
              > >
              > > Dave
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              > > >
              > > > John Hagen
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15271 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Ok,
               
              No I am confused.
               
              What is our arguement here? Are we discussing whhich came first? The booster with the diecast frame or the booster with the nylon frame. It is clear (to me at least) they both existed. I though it would make sence the diecast came first.
               
              Why is it nearly every Booster I aquire is ALL diecast with brass bearings and sometimes plastic excentric rods? Some models clearly have diecast excentric rods which makes me think they are older. Having only seen 2-3 Boosters with the nylon frames and 2-nylon drivers, and nearly owned 100 or more over the past few years, its seams reasonable to me to assume the diecast frame was in production for a very long time, much longer than that of the nylon frame.
               
              Has it not historically been the case that pieces have gone through transitional changes in production throughout the years, typically going from production methods of higher quality methods and materials to lower, ie metal to plastic? Am I to believe, for some reason, this engine went from first being produced in a bi-material of diecast and plastic to that of a later all diecast version? Does not the use of plastics in molding, require a nearly completely different process?
               
              Seems unlikely to me. My bet is the plastic chassis and drivers appeared near the end of the Mantua/Tyco production of this engine.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 12:52:22 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.

              Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg

              Note frame and cylinders.
              Nylon.

              Dave

              > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
              > >
              > > We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus of
              > > the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954
              > >
              > >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              > >
              > > Don
              > >
              > > Don Dellmann
              > > don.dellmann@
              > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > Owner
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@>
              > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jay,
              > > I can certainly
              see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              > > right
              > > about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
              > >
              > >
              > > The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass
              > > wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              > > states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
              > >
              > > I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
              > >
              > > Sean
              > > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15272 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              No argument.
              But, unless the data sheets are mis-labelled as to year, the booster FIRST came with nylon cylinders, frame, drivers, and retainer (listed as 1953).
              As I gave the link, by 1960 they had gone to die-=cast......not sure when the change, but, as stated, the nylong thing probably didn't work out as planned.
              Later units may have gone to some kind of Delrin or self-lubricating plastic, but I doubt in the 80's or 90's TYCO would have tried nylon.

              You got any hard data to back up that the Booster started as die-cast and went to nylon late in life?

              If so, post it, and we'll get Larry to update the HOSeeker site.
              http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5981

              "The infamous Mantua / Tyco 0-4-0 Booster Every company has a catastrophic failure and the folks in South Jersey were no exception!
              In 1953 the the original Booster was introduced both as a Mantua kit (No 213 $9.95) and a Tyco RTR (T-213 $15.95). It bombed big time Reason the frame and drive wheel inserts were made of that newfangled stuff Mantua called Nylon I dont know why, but the plastic mix used was extremely brittle look at it cross eyed and it would break They also had the same problem with rolling stock wheelsAt the same time the familiar trolley (Mantua KIT no 214 $8.95 Tyco RTR T-214 $10.95 was released using the frame and running gear from the said Booster which of course was a failure also

              Here are some catalog pages from the era:"

              with the page shown.

              >
              > Ok,
              >
              > No I am confused.
              >
              > What is our arguement here? Are we discussing whhich came first? The booster
              > with the diecast frame or the booster with the nylon frame. It is clear (to me
              > at least) they both existed. I though it would make sence the diecast came
              > first.
              >
              >
              > Why is it nearly every Booster I aquire is ALL diecast with brass bearings and
              > sometimes plastic excentric rods? Some models clearly have diecast excentric
              > rods which makes me think they are older. Having only seen 2-3 Boosters with the
              > nylon frames and 2-nylon drivers, and nearly owned 100 or more over the past few
              > years, its seams reasonable to me to assume the diecast frame was in production
              > for a very long time, much longer than that of the nylon frame.
              >
              >
              > Has it not historically been the case that pieces have gone through transitional
              > changes in production throughout the years, typically going from production
              > methods of higher quality methods and materials to lower, ie metal to plastic?
              > Am I to believe, for some reason, this engine went from first being produced in
              > a bi-material of diecast and plastic to that of a later all diecast version?
              > Does not the use of plastics in molding, require a nearly completely different
              > process?
              >
              > Seems unlikely to me. My bet is the plastic chassis and drivers appeared near
              > the end of the Mantua/Tyco production of this engine.
              >
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 12:52:22 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              >
              >  
              > I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.
              >
              > Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              > http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg
              >
              > Note frame and cylinders.
              > Nylon.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside
              > >cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus of
              >
              > > > the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954
              > > >
              > > >
              > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              > >
              > > >
              > > > Don
              > > >
              > > > Don Dellmann
              > > > don.dellmann@
              > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > > Owner
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@>
              > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi Jay,
              > > > I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              > > > right
              > > > about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass
              > > > wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              > > > states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
              > > >
              > > > I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
              > > >
              > > > Sean
              > > > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15273 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Being that I was born in 1970, I am truely at a disadvantage here.
               
              I have no proof. It just does not seem logical to go from plastic/nylon to diecast in terms of lineage of production. Fail or no fail...
               
              The only suggestion I can make is the box labels are clearly printed in black and white and the red print is clearly a stamp, which would only have been applied if the original did not have plastic and was "All Diecast". I have several boxes at home, I will check and see I have any Booster boxes and if any are clearly missing this red text stamp. If so, I will see if the boxes look newer or older...
               
              That is all I can offer..
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 2:12:53 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               


              No argument.
              But, unless the data sheets are mis-labelled as to year, the booster FIRST came with nylon cylinders, frame, drivers, and retainer (listed as 1953).
              As I gave the link, by 1960 they had gone to die-=cast......not sure when the change, but, as stated, the nylong thing probably didn't work out as planned.
              Later units may have gone to some kind of Delrin or self-lubricating plastic, but I doubt in the 80's or 90's TYCO would have tried nylon.

              You got any hard data to back up that the Booster started as die-cast and went to nylon late in life?

              If so, post it, and we'll get Larry to update the HOSeeker site.
              http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5981

              "The infamous Mantua / Tyco 0-4-0 Booster Every company has a catastrophic failure and the folks in South Jersey were no exception!
              In 1953 the the original Booster was introduced both as a Mantua kit (No 213 $9.95) and a Tyco RTR (T-213 $15.95). It bombed big time Reason the frame and drive wheel inserts were made of that newfangled stuff Mantua called Nylon I dont know why, but the plastic mix used was extremely brittle look at it cross eyed and it would break They also had the same problem with rolling stock wheelsAt the same time the familiar trolley (Mantua KIT no 214 $8.95 Tyco RTR T-214 $10.95 was released using the frame and running gear from the said Booster which of course was a failure also

              Here are some catalog pages from the era:"

              with the page shown.

              >
              > Ok,
              >
              > No I am confused.
              >
              > What is our arguement here? Are we discussing whhich came first? The booster
              > with the diecast frame or the booster with the nylon frame. It is clear (to me
              > at least) they both existed. I though it would make sence the diecast came
              > first.
              >
              >
              > Why is it nearly every
              Booster I aquire is ALL diecast with brass bearings and
              > sometimes plastic excentric rods? Some models clearly have diecast excentric
              > rods which makes me think they are older. Having only seen 2-3 Boosters with the
              > nylon frames and 2-nylon drivers, and nearly owned 100 or more over the past few
              > years, its seams reasonable to me to assume the diecast frame was in production
              > for a very long time, much longer than that of the nylon frame.
              >
              >
              > Has it not historically been the case that pieces have gone through transitional
              > changes in production throughout the years, typically going from production
              > methods of higher quality methods and materials to lower, ie metal to plastic?
              > Am I to believe, for some reason, this engine went from first being produced in
              > a bi-material of diecast and plastic to that of a later all diecast version?
              > Does not the use of plastics in molding, require a nearly completely different
              > process?
              >
              > Seems unlikely to me. My bet is the plastic chassis and drivers appeared near
              > the end of the Mantua/Tyco production of this engine.
              >
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 12:52:22 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              >
              >  
              > I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.
              >
              > Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              >
              http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg
              >
              > Note frame and cylinders.
              > Nylon.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside
              > >cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus of
              >
              > > > the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954
              > > >
              > > >
              > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              > >
              > > >
              > > > Don
              > > >
              > > > Don Dellmann
              > > > don.dellmann@
              > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > > Owner
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@>
              > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO]
              Re: Mantua Shifter
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi Jay,
              > > > I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              > > > right
              > > > about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass
              > > > wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              > > > states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
              > > >
              > > > I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
              > > >
              > > > Sean
              > > > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > > >
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15274 From: John H Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Sean,

              I am in complete agreement that the normal train of events would be for the diecast to change to plastic. BUT, I am now convinced not in this case. That is one very early box shown and it even shows the slanted side tanks which may not have actually reached production but for a very short time. And the model number, 213, puts it in the early 50's. Then there is the red print stamped in "With Nylon Frame and Parts". That obviously rubber-stamped-on print indicates to me a last minute change that came after the boxes were printed. And the parts list from 1952 or 1953 (memory short circuit) showing nylon cylinder block and frame that Dave pointed out.

              I'm thinking (always dangerous) that Mantua for some reason tried a noble experiment and tried nylon here. And, according to what has been stated earlier, it did not work out too well thus the switch to all diecast which probably went on to the end of production.

              Another thing to remember that we were in a pretty major "police action" at the time with North Korea and there were some restrictions placed on certain materials once again. Metal for diecasting would a very likely material for restriction at the time. It may be that Mantua switched to nylon to see if they could switch other models in order to retain desired production levels. Of course, a cease fire accord was eventually reached and all restrictions were lifted which would have given Mantua a clear field to keep using diecast for its products. This may have been what led to the rather early use of plastic for their cabs and tender shells, parts that did not need the strength of a frame, especially in the area of the threads for the pick-up assembly screw. Note the later to production Little Six WAS all diecast.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ok,
              >
              > No I am confused.
              >
              > What is our arguement here? Are we discussing whhich came first? The booster
              > with the diecast frame or the booster with the nylon frame. It is clear (to me
              > at least) they both existed. I though it would make sence the diecast came
              > first.
              >
              >
              > Why is it nearly every Booster I aquire is ALL diecast with brass bearings and
              > sometimes plastic excentric rods? Some models clearly have diecast excentric
              > rods which makes me think they are older. Having only seen 2-3 Boosters with the
              > nylon frames and 2-nylon drivers, and nearly owned 100 or more over the past few
              > years, its seams reasonable to me to assume the diecast frame was in production
              > for a very long time, much longer than that of the nylon frame.
              >
              >
              > Has it not historically been the case that pieces have gone through transitional
              > changes in production throughout the years, typically going from production
              > methods of higher quality methods and materials to lower, ie metal to plastic?
              > Am I to believe, for some reason, this engine went from first being produced in
              > a bi-material of diecast and plastic to that of a later all diecast version?
              > Does not the use of plastics in molding, require a nearly completely different
              > process?
              >
              > Seems unlikely to me. My bet is the plastic chassis and drivers appeared near
              > the end of the Mantua/Tyco production of this engine.
              >
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15275 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              hmmf..  My head hurts now...
               
              I guess you learn something new every day...as Jim says..
               
              Putting it that way John, it kind-of makes sence...
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 2:30:08 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              Sean,

              I am in complete agreement that the normal train of events would be for the diecast to change to plastic. BUT, I am now convinced not in this case. That is one very early box shown and it even shows the slanted side tanks which may not have actually reached production but for a very short time. And the model number, 213, puts it in the early 50's. Then there is the red print stamped in "With Nylon Frame and Parts". That obviously rubber-stamped-on print indicates to me a last minute change that came after the boxes were printed. And the parts list from 1952 or 1953 (memory short circuit) showing nylon cylinder block and frame that Dave pointed out.

              I'm thinking (always dangerous) that Mantua for some reason tried a noble experiment and tried nylon here. And, according to what has been stated earlier, it did not work out too well thus the switch to all diecast which probably went on to the end of production.

              Another thing to remember that we were in a pretty major "police action" at the time with North Korea and there were some restrictions placed on certain materials once again. Metal for diecasting would a very likely material for restriction at the time. It may be that Mantua switched to nylon to see if they could switch other models in order to retain desired production levels. Of course, a cease fire accord was eventually reached and all restrictions were lifted which would have given Mantua a clear field to keep using diecast for its products. This may have been what led to the rather early use of plastic for their cabs and tender shells, parts that did not need the strength of a frame, especially in the area of the threads for the pick-up assembly screw. Note the later to production Little Six WAS all diecast.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              >
              > Ok,
              >
              > No I am confused.
              >
              > What is our arguement here? Are we discussing whhich came first? The booster
              > with the diecast frame or the booster with the nylon frame. It is clear (to me
              > at least) they both existed. I though it would make sence the diecast came
              > first.
              >
              >
              > Why is it nearly every Booster I aquire is ALL diecast with brass bearings and
              > sometimes plastic excentric rods? Some models clearly have diecast excentric
              > rods which makes me think they are older. Having only seen 2-3 Boosters with the
              > nylon frames and 2-nylon drivers, and nearly owned 100 or more over the past few
              > years, its seams reasonable to me to assume the diecast frame was in production
              >
              for a very long time, much longer than that of the nylon frame.
              >
              >
              > Has it not historically been the case that pieces have gone through transitional
              > changes in production throughout the years, typically going from production
              > methods of higher quality methods and materials to lower, ie metal to plastic?
              > Am I to believe, for some reason, this engine went from first being produced in
              > a bi-material of diecast and plastic to that of a later all diecast version?
              > Does not the use of plastics in molding, require a nearly completely different
              > process?
              >
              > Seems unlikely to me. My bet is the plastic chassis and drivers appeared near
              > the end of the Mantua/Tyco production of this engine.
              >
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15276 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Logic has nothing to do with it.
              Read the links provided.
              The Mantua Cyclopedia, 1925-1953, provided on the link, and see NYLON.
              No proof to support your "thoughts".
              All we have is the data we have.
              And, apparently in 1959 Mantua re-issued the Booster in all die-cast.
              It's all there.

              True?
              Who knows, other than the provided copies of the Mantua Handbook.



              > Being that I was born in 1970, I am truely at a disadvantage here.
              >
              > I have no proof. It just does not seem logical to go from plastic/nylon to
              > diecast in terms of lineage of production. Fail or no fail...
              >
              > The only suggestion I can make is the box labels are clearly printed in black
              > and white and the red print is clearly a stamp, which would only have been
              > applied if the original did not have plastic and was "All Diecast". I have
              > several boxes at home, I will check and see I have any Booster boxes and if any
              > are clearly missing this red text stamp. If so, I will see if the boxes look
              > newer or older...
              >
              > That is all I can offer..
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 2:12:53 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              >
              >  
              >
              > No argument.
              > But, unless the data sheets are mis-labelled as to year, the booster FIRST came
              > with nylon cylinders, frame, drivers, and retainer (listed as 1953).
              > As I gave the link, by 1960 they had gone to die-=cast......not sure when the
              > change, but, as stated, the nylong thing probably didn't work out as planned.
              > Later units may have gone to some kind of Delrin or self-lubricating plastic,
              > but I doubt in the 80's or 90's TYCO would have tried nylon.
              >
              > You got any hard data to back up that the Booster started as die-cast and went
              > to nylon late in life?
              >
              > If so, post it, and we'll get Larry to update the HOSeeker site.
              > http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5981
              >
              > "The infamous Mantua / Tyco 0-4-0 Booster Every company has a catastrophic
              > failure and the folks in South Jersey were no exception!
              >
              > In 1953 the the original Booster was introduced both as a Mantua kit (No 213
              > $9.95) and a Tyco RTR (T-213 $15.95). It bombed big time Reason the frame and
              > drive wheel inserts were made of that newfangled stuff Mantua called Nylon I
              > dont know why, but the plastic mix used was extremely brittle look at it cross
              > eyed and it would break They also had the same problem with rolling stock
              > wheelsAt the same time the familiar trolley (Mantua KIT no 214 $8.95 Tyco RTR
              > T-214 $10.95 was released using the frame and running gear from the said Booster
              > which of course was a failure also
              >
              >
              > Here are some catalog pages from the era:"
              >
              > with the page shown.
              >
              > >
              > > Ok,
              > >
              > > No I am confused.
              > >
              > > What is our arguement here? Are we discussing whhich came first? The booster
              > > with the diecast frame or the booster with the nylon frame. It is clear (to me
              >
              > > at least) they both existed. I though it would make sence the diecast came
              > > first.
              > >
              > >
              > > Why is it nearly every Booster I aquire is ALL diecast with brass bearings
              > >and
              > >
              > > sometimes plastic excentric rods? Some models clearly have diecast excentric
              > > rods which makes me think they are older. Having only seen 2-3 Boosters with
              > >the
              > >
              > > nylon frames and 2-nylon drivers, and nearly owned 100 or more over the past
              > >few
              > >
              > > years, its seams reasonable to me to assume the diecast frame was in production
              > >
              > > for a very long time, much longer than that of the nylon frame.
              > >
              > >
              > > Has it not historically been the case that pieces have gone through
              > >transitional
              > >
              > > changes in production throughout the years, typically going from production
              > > methods of higher quality methods and materials to lower, ie metal to plastic?
              >
              > > Am I to believe, for some reason, this engine went from first being produced
              > >in
              > >
              > > a bi-material of diecast and plastic to that of a later all diecast version?
              > > Does not the use of plastics in molding, require a nearly completely different
              >
              > > process?
              > >
              > > Seems unlikely to me. My bet is the plastic chassis and drivers appeared near
              > > the end of the Mantua/Tyco production of this engine.
              > >
              > >
              > > Sean
              > >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@>
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 12:52:22 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              > >
              > >  
              > > I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.
              > >
              > > Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              > > http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg
              > >
              > > Note frame and cylinders.
              > > Nylon.
              > >
              > > Dave
              > >
              > > > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster
              > >inside
              > >
              > > >cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              > > >
              > > > John Hagen
              > > >
              > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus
              > >of
              > >
              > >
              > > > > the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              > >c
              > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Don
              > > > >
              > > > > Don Dellmann
              > > > > don.dellmann@
              > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > > > Owner
              > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > > > >
              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@>
              > > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              > > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi Jay,
              > > > > I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              > > > > right
              > > > > about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and
              > brass
              > > > > wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              > > > > states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
              > > > >
              > > > > I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
              > > > >
              > > > > Sean
              > > > > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15277 From: 23weldon Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Late 40's Varney stock car
              This may be a long shot but consider making a thin RTV rubber female mold of an existing warped side while pressed flat under a heavy weight.  If the bottom surface is one the RTV can stick to then it can be the mold base.  The top surface can be anything flat like a piece of plate glass with some mold release on it.  If you are at all successful at getting a resin casting out of it you'll likely spend the best part of an evening trimming the flash off.
              Ed Weldon
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15278 From: Roger Aultman Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              
              The story I heard was that the nylon parts were supposed to conserve metal for the Korean police action.   Roger Aultman
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:57 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              Ok,
               
              No I am confused.
               
              What is our arguement here? Are we discussing whhich came first? The booster with the diecast frame or the booster with the nylon frame. It is clear (to me at least) they both existed. I though it would make sence the diecast came first.
               
              Why is it nearly every Booster I aquire is ALL diecast with brass bearings and sometimes plastic excentric rods? Some models clearly have diecast excentric rods which makes me think they are older. Having only seen 2-3 Boosters with the nylon frames and 2-nylon drivers, and nearly owned 100 or more over the past few years, its seams reasonable to me to assume the diecast frame was in production for a very long time, much longer than that of the nylon frame.
               
              Has it not historically been the case that pieces have gone through transitional changes in production throughout the years, typically going from production methods of higher quality methods and materials to lower, ie metal to plastic? Am I to believe, for some reason, this engine went from first being produced in a bi-material of diecast and plastic to that of a later all diecast version? Does not the use of plastics in molding, require a nearly completely different process?
               
              Seems unlikely to me. My bet is the plastic chassis and drivers appeared near the end of the Mantua/Tyco production of this engine.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 12:52:22 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.

              Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg

              Note frame and cylinders.
              Nylon.

              Dave

              > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
              > >
              > > We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus of
              > > the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              > >
              > > Don
              > >
              > > Don Dellmann
              > > don.dellmann@
              > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > Owner
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@>
              > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jay,
              > > I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              > > right
              > > about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
              > >
              > >
              > > The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass
              > > wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              > > states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
              > >
              > > I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
              > >
              > > Sean
              > > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15279 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              I was working in a hobby shop in the late fifties and recall when the Mantua line  made the change from Zamak to plastic.  As I recall the Korean War era, the main material shortage affecting the hobby was brass--think cartridge cases--Rail and track were primarily affected--we had several years of steel-rail track.  gj

              Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:46 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

              
              The story I heard was that the nylon parts were supposed to conserve metal for the Korean police action.   Roger Aultman
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:57 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              Ok,
               
              No I am confused.
               
              What is our arguement here? Are we discussing whhich came first? The booster with the diecast frame or the booster with the nylon frame. It is clear (to me at least) they both existed. I though it would make sence the diecast came first.
               
              Why is it nearly every Booster I aquire is ALL diecast with brass bearings and sometimes plastic excentric rods? Some models clearly have diecast excentric rods which makes me think they are older. Having only seen 2-3 Boosters with the nylon frames and 2-nylon drivers, and nearly owned 100 or more over the past few years, its seams reasonable to me to assume the diecast frame was in production for a very long time, much longer than that of the nylon frame.
               
              Has it not historically been the case that pieces have gone through transitional changes in production throughout the years, typically going from production methods of higher quality methods and materials to lower, ie metal to plastic? Am I to believe, for some reason, this engine went from first being produced in a bi-material of diecast and plastic to that of a later all diecast version? Does not the use of plastics in molding, require a nearly completely different process?
               
              Seems unlikely to me. My bet is the plastic chassis and drivers appeared near the end of the Mantua/Tyco production of this engine.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 12:52:22 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               

              I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.

              Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg

              Note frame and cylinders.
              Nylon.

              Dave

              > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
              > >
              > > We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus of
              > > the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              > >
              > > Don
              > >
              > > Don Dellmann
              > > don.dellmann@
              > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > Owner
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@>
              > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jay,
              > > I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              > > right
              > > about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
              > >
              > >
              > > The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass
              > > wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              > > states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
              > >
              > > I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
              > >
              > > Sean
              > > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15280 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              Don't feel too funny, Sean, I was born in 1984.

              I have one of these all die cast Mantua 0-4-0s. Got it complete with box a couple years ago. All cast cab and steamchest too.

              Runs fairly well, and is overall a nice locomotive!

              Tender, is die cast with no deck, and instead, truck 'bolster' bosses that extend vertical from the top down inside, much like earlier die cast 12 wheel tenders.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Wed, 10/13/10, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 1:27 PM

               

              Being that I was born in 1970, I am truely at a disadvantage here.
               
              I have no proof. It just does not seem logical to go from plastic/nylon to diecast in terms of lineage of production. Fail or no fail...
               
              The only suggestion I can make is the box labels are clearly printed in black and white and the red print is clearly a stamp, which would only have been applied if the original did not have plastic and was "All Diecast". I have several boxes at home, I will check and see I have any Booster boxes and if any are clearly missing this red text stamp. If so, I will see if the boxes look newer or older...
               
              That is all I can offer..
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 2:12:53 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               


              No argument.
              But, unless the data sheets are mis-labelled as to year, the booster FIRST came with nylon cylinders, frame, drivers, and retainer (listed as 1953).
              As I gave the link, by 1960 they had gone to die-=cast......not sure when the change, but, as stated, the nylong thing probably didn't work out as planned.
              Later units may have gone to some kind of Delrin or self-lubricating plastic, but I doubt in the 80's or 90's TYCO would have tried nylon.

              You got any hard data to back up that the Booster started as die-cast and went to nylon late in life?

              If so, post it, and we'll get Larry to update the HOSeeker site.
              http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5981

              "The infamous Mantua / Tyco 0-4-0 Booster Every company has a catastrophic failure and the folks in South Jersey were no exception!
              In 1953 the the original Booster was introduced both as a Mantua kit (No 213 $9.95) and a Tyco RTR (T-213 $15.95). It bombed big time Reason the frame and drive wheel inserts were made of that newfangled stuff Mantua called Nylon I dont know why, but the plastic mix used was extremely brittle look at it cross eyed and it would break They also had the same problem with rolling stock wheelsAt the same time the familiar trolley (Mantua KIT no 214 $8.95 Tyco RTR T-214 $10.95 was released using the frame and running gear from the said Booster which of course was a failure also

              Here are some catalog pages from the era:"

              with the page shown.

              >
              > Ok,
              >
              > No I am confused.
              >
              > What is our arguement here? Are we discussing whhich came first? The booster
              > with the diecast frame or the booster with the nylon frame. It is clear (to me
              > at least) they both existed. I though it would make sence the diecast came
              > first.
              >
              >
              > Why is it nearly every Booster I aquire is ALL diecast with brass bearings and
              > sometimes plastic excentric rods? Some models clearly have diecast excentric
              > rods which makes me think they are older. Having only seen 2-3 Boosters with the
              > nylon frames and 2-nylon drivers, and nearly owned 100 or more over the past few
              > years, its seams reasonable to me to assume the diecast frame was in production
              > for a very long time, much longer than that of the nylon frame.
              >
              >
              > Has it not historically been the case that pieces have gone through transitional
              > changes in production throughout the years, typically going from production
              > methods of higher quality methods and materials to lower, ie metal to plastic?
              > Am I to believe, for some reason, this engine went from first being produced in
              > a bi-material of diecast and plastic to that of a later all diecast version?
              > Does not the use of plastics in molding, require a nearly completely different
              > process?
              >
              > Seems unlikely to me. My bet is the plastic chassis and drivers appeared near
              > the end of the Mantua/Tyco production of this engine.
              >
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 12:52:22 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              >
              >  
              > I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.
              >
              > Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              > http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg
              >
              > Note frame and cylinders.
              > Nylon.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside
              > >cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus of
              >
              > > > the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954
              > > >
              > > >
              > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              > >
              > > >
              > > > Don
              > > >
              > > > Don Dellmann
              > > > don.dellmann@
              > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > > Owner
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@>
              > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi Jay,
              > > > I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              > > > right
              > > > about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass
              > > > wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              > > > states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
              > > >
              > > > I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
              > > >
              > > > Sean
              > > > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > > >
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15281 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Shifter
              It is good to see you younger people interested in OLD HO...  After having AF and Marx as a child I began collecting and using HO in 1958 when I was 28 years old.  I used to repair, custom build  and custom paint in HO but it became too tedious...  So in 1980 I began collecting, restoring and repairing S and O gauge trains (easier to work with).  I am still interested in HO as well as the larger scales and toy trains.  I still have much HO and the layout my son and I built when he was a teen...  He's 52 now.  I have sold off my HO collections several times and kept the old stuff.  One of my favorite past times in HO was putting power units into Hobbyline Berkshire plastic loco kits and I am still collecting them and powering them. 

              Thanks to all for all of the fun this group has been to me.

              Happy Railroading...

              Don Staton in VA.
              ============================================================================================

              On 10/13/2010 6:48 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:
               

              Don't feel too funny, Sean, I was born in 1984.

              I have one of these all die cast Mantua 0-4-0s. Got it complete with box a couple years ago. All cast cab and steamchest too.

              Runs fairly well, and is overall a nice locomotive!

              Tender, is die cast with no deck, and instead, truck 'bolster' bosses that extend vertical from the top down inside, much like earlier die cast 12 wheel tenders.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Wed, 10/13/10, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 1:27 PM

               
              Being that I was born in 1970, I am truely at a disadvantage here.
               
              I have no proof. It just does not seem logical to go from plastic/nylon to diecast in terms of lineage of production. Fail or no fail...
               
              The only suggestion I can make is the box labels are clearly printed in black and white and the red print is clearly a stamp, which would only have been applied if the original did not have plastic and was "All Diecast". I have several boxes at home, I will check and see I have any Booster boxes and if any are clearly missing this red text stamp. If so, I will see if the boxes look newer or older...
               
              That is all I can offer..
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 2:12:53 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter

               


              No argument.
              But, unless the data sheets are mis-labelled as to year, the booster FIRST came with nylon cylinders, frame, drivers, and retainer (listed as 1953).
              As I gave the link, by 1960 they had gone to die-=cast......not sure when the change, but, as stated, the nylong thing probably didn't work out as planned.
              Later units may have gone to some kind of Delrin or self-lubricating plastic, but I doubt in the 80's or 90's TYCO would have tried nylon.

              You got any hard data to back up that the Booster started as die-cast and went to nylon late in life?

              If so, post it, and we'll get Larry to update the HOSeeker site.
              http://www.tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5981

              "The infamous Mantua / Tyco 0-4-0 Booster Every company has a catastrophic failure and the folks in South Jersey were no exception!
              In 1953 the the original Booster was introduced both as a Mantua kit (No 213 $9.95) and a Tyco RTR (T-213 $15.95). It bombed big time Reason the frame and drive wheel inserts were made of that newfangled stuff Mantua called Nylon I dont know why, but the plastic mix used was extremely brittle look at it cross eyed and it would break They also had the same problem with rolling stock wheelsAt the same time the familiar trolley (Mantua KIT no 214 $8.95 Tyco RTR T-214 $10.95 was released using the frame and running gear from the said Booster which of course was a failure also

              Here are some catalog pages from the era:"

              with the page shown.

              >
              > Ok,
              >
              > No I am confused.
              >
              > What is our arguement here? Are we discussing whhich came first? The booster
              > with the diecast frame or the booster with the nylon frame. It is clear (to me
              > at least) they both existed. I though it would make sence the diecast came
              > first.
              >
              >
              > Why is it nearly every Booster I aquire is ALL diecast with brass bearings and
              > sometimes plastic excentric rods? Some models clearly have diecast excentric
              > rods which makes me think they are older. Having only seen 2-3 Boosters with the
              > nylon frames and 2-nylon drivers, and nearly owned 100 or more over the past few
              > years, its seams reasonable to me to assume the diecast frame was in production
              > for a very long time, much longer than that of the nylon frame.
              >
              >
              > Has it not historically been the case that pieces have gone through transitional
              > changes in production throughout the years, typically going from production
              > methods of higher quality methods and materials to lower, ie metal to plastic?
              > Am I to believe, for some reason, this engine went from first being produced in
              > a bi-material of diecast and plastic to that of a later all diecast version?
              > Does not the use of plastics in molding, require a nearly completely different
              > process?
              >
              > Seems unlikely to me. My bet is the plastic chassis and drivers appeared near
              > the end of the Mantua/Tyco production of this engine.
              >
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 12:52:22 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              >
              >  
              > I didn't think there was such a thing......and I had to look.
              >
              > Look here, at this parts list for a 1953 Booster:
              > http://hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionMantua/mantua040boosterpg1.jpg
              >
              > Note frame and cylinders.
              > Nylon.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > > Checking the photos section of Hoseeker find a photo of an early Booster inside
              > >cover of the box. One of the linesthere clearly states "All Diecast".
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > We went around and around about this one when I got it, and the consensus of
              >
              > > > the group was that this particular model was ca. 1954
              > > >
              > > >
              > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/1283390221/pic/5653663/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              > >
              > > >
              > > > Don
              > > >
              > > > Don Dellmann
              > > > don.dellmann@
              > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > > Owner
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@>
              > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:11 AM
              > > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Shifter
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi Jay,
              > > > I can certainly see the Shifter coming out in 1950. I think you might be
              > > > right
              > > > about the Pacific and second issue Mike.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > The first Boosters however, most certainly had all diecast frames and brass
              > > > wheels/drivers. I have probably 26+ of them in my collection in various
              > > > states of condition. I might have one with a plastic frame.
              > > >
              > > > I am certain the Booster came out by at least the mid-fifties.
              > > >
              > > > Sean
              > > > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              > > >
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15282 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Help identify year or years, please
              I am putting down on paper (well, computer, anyway) all the stuff I have figured out.
              I have an Athearn metal rounded-roof 50' auto boxacr, Northern Pacific, road number 39574.

              I have searched the HOSeeker database until my eyes no longer focus, and I find all sorts of them, but not one NP.

              I am guessing since it doesn't show up, that it was a one or two year release, not covered in the data on the site?

              Any rough guesses?

              Thanks.
              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15283 From: Russ Shiel Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Help identify year or years, please

              Dave...have you checked Menzies? Am at work, can't check my NP roster till this evening, but I'm pretty sure I have that car pre-Athearn metal in Menzies packaging. Ray (erieberk) should be able to date it. Chrs, Russ

              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, 14 October, 2010 2:05:31 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Help identify year or years, please

               

              I am putting down on paper (well, computer, anyway) all the stuff I have figured out.
              I have an Athearn metal rounded-roof 50' auto boxacr, Northern Pacific, road number 39574.

              I have searched the HOSeeker database until my eyes no longer focus, and I find all sorts of them, but not one NP.

              I am guessing since it doesn't show up, that it was a one or two year release, not covered in the data on the site?

              Any rough guesses?

              Thanks.
              Dave


               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15284 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Help identify year or years, please
              Now, that could be.
              I'd forgotten Menzies.
              I'll see what I can find.
              You see something so obviously Athearn, you don't look any further.
              Thanks!
              Dave

              >
              > Dave...have you checked Menzies? Am at work, can't check my NP roster till this
              > evening, but I'm pretty sure I have that car pre-Athearn metal in Menzies
              > packaging. Ray (erieberk) should be able to date it. Chrs, Russ
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, 14 October, 2010 2:05:31 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Help identify year or years, please
              >
              >  
              > I am putting down on paper (well, computer, anyway) all the stuff I have figured
              > out.
              > I have an Athearn metal rounded-roof 50' auto boxacr, Northern Pacific, road
              > number 39574.
              >
              > I have searched the HOSeeker database until my eyes no longer focus, and I find
              > all sorts of them, but not one NP.
              >
              > I am guessing since it doesn't show up, that it was a one or two year release,
              > not covered in the data on the site?
              >
              > Any rough guesses?
              >
              > Thanks.
              > Dave
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15285 From: Russ Shiel Date: 10/13/2010
              Subject: Menzies 50' round-roof NP autobox
              Further to Dave's query, a quick scan through 'The Reporting Mark' produced a mention of the elusive car in TRM Vol. 1(2) p.4...but only that a member had one on offer...this is Jan 1983, so Menzies' production of the car predated the newsletter date. Does anyone have an early '80's Menzies catalog?
              Chrs! Sleuthing R'us
               


              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, 14 October, 2010 2:05:31 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Help identify year or years, please

               

              I am putting down on paper (well, computer, anyway) all the stuff I have figured out.
              I have an Athearn metal rounded-roof 50' auto boxacr, Northern Pacific, road number 39574.

              I have searched the HOSeeker database until my eyes no longer focus, and I find all sorts of them, but not one NP.

              I am guessing since it doesn't show up, that it was a one or two year release, not covered in the data on the site?

              Any rough guesses?

              Thanks.
              Dave


               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15286 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Menzies 50' round-roof NP autobox
              Russ, Dave,

              Yes, the 50' Round Roof NP boxcar is a Menzies production (Catalog #
              1-330), reporting number 39574. It was never produced by Athearn.

              Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15287 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Menzies 50' round-roof NP autobox
              Attachments :
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <erieberk@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 5:15 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Menzies 50' round-roof NP autobox


              > Russ, Dave,
              >
              > Yes, the 50' Round Roof NP boxcar is a Menzies production (Catalog #
              > 1-330), reporting number 39574. It was never produced by Athearn.
              >
              > Ray F.W.</HTML>
              >

              I don't ever remember Menzies NOT having the NP car in both 40' and 50'.

              The attached scan is from the Walthers '84 catalog. (And the reason the 40'
              is crossed out in red is because at the time I actually had one.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15288 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Menzies 50' round-roof NP autobox
              Had I known that decades ago......
              I model NP in "0" scale, or did....and in this Half-0 stuff, I have found a bunch of NP cars.
              I have some old metal side Varney (50's) reefers, a SilverStreak wood side NP box, now I gotta start looking for more.
              Dave

              > I don't ever remember Menzies NOT having the NP car in both 40' and 50'.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15289 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: String of cars with Mantuas
              I just put out on my desk a string of 18 vintage wood/metal/cardstock cars all with Mantuas.

              I know I have more, just these are ones that are "done", or close to it.

              Not counting plastic Mantua cars with talgo trucks.

              BTW, just for discussion purposes......is there any market for Baker couplers?


              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15290 From: jbark76 Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Re: String of cars with Mantuas
              I know someone that uses Baker and I've been keeping an eye out for them. -Jeff B-
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15291 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Re: String of cars with Mantuas
              I've got 8 sets (16 couplers) total, 5 of those sets in the bags, factory stapled.
              Trade straight across for complete Mantuas, if he's got take-offs.
              Dave


              > I know someone that uses Baker and I've been keeping an eye out for them. -Jeff B-
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15292 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Puzzled.
              I have an old reefer, had it for, oh, 24 years, I think,
              In the bottom of a box of other stuff.

              I have searched and searched for the sides, RedBall, Megows, Varney, nothing.

              Today, I ordered a bunch of parts from Ye Olde Huff n Puff, to finish off a bunch more stuff, and found this picture:

              http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/images/HO/ho2.jpg

              I called Gene, he had no idea where the original artwork came from.

              Mine is like this, except road number (mine is 5325), and the oval on the right, on mine is black, black bar in center, the photo shows read oval and bar.

              Plus, the "Canned Meats" on the bottom right is black on mine, not red, but the Armour's and Products is red.

              So, what am I missing to sort this one out?

              Ned a photo, or is the photo listed and the color differences sufficient?

              Not the end of world peace if I don't get an answer, but I finally found a car side with the oval logo on the right, and I'm chuffed, I am.


              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15293 From: jim heckard Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Conover Progress
               
               
                      For anyone interested the pictures will show a slow but steady progress as I try to fill in, grind & file to clean up the sandy pitted surfaces on my Conover 2-10-2 parts. I figure I am about 70-75 % done. Most of the major parts are finished but the boiler and tender frame are not. You can still see on the boiler places that are still need to be done. Learning techniques on how to best utilize hand tools especially straight and riffler files.
               
                  Very soon onto drilling , tapping and assembly which will include adding detail and fabricating missing parts.
               
                                                                               Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15294 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Mantua Loop Couplers - Question about locomotives
              Group,

              I am in the process of overhauling the 90% of my collection that got damaged when I moved in early June. Spending the next few evenings paying attention to locomotives (In particular, a Varney 4-6-2 rigid frame that has a problem with the middle driver set. I think it was in the box that got dropped particularly hard).

              Anyway...

              I am re-equipping more old rolling stock with Mantua loop couplers, and have noticed, that many times, locomotives and tenders had the loop, but no hook inside. Was there a reason that many were done that way? I am thinking it is something obvious, but something I have not guessed yet...

              Any DISadvantages to having the hook AND loop on locomotives, or does it really matter?

              Thanks, all!
              -Steve Neubaum
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15295 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Couplers - Question about locomotives
              Well, unless double-heading, you really only need hooks on the mating couplers, and if all the cars have them on both ends, you're set.

              Plus, you can hard-mount the loop to the chassis, not worry about free-floating to allow the hook to move.
              Makes loco installation MUCH easier!

              Dave


              > Group,
              >
              > I am in the process of overhauling the 90% of my collection that got damaged when I moved in early June. Spending the next few evenings paying attention to locomotives (In particular, a Varney 4-6-2 rigid frame that has a problem with the middle driver set. I think it was in the box that got dropped particularly hard).
              >
              > Anyway...
              >
              > I am re-equipping more old rolling stock with Mantua loop couplers, and have noticed, that many times, locomotives and tenders had the loop, but no hook inside. Was there a reason that many were done that way? I am thinking it is something obvious, but something I have not guessed yet...
              >
              > Any DISadvantages to having the hook AND loop on locomotives, or does it really matter?
              >
              > Thanks, all!
              > -Steve Neubaum
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15296 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Loop Couplers - Question about locomotives
              If my bigger locos are to be double-headed at any time, I try to have a hook on the tender, and retain just a loop on the pilot.
              My switchers only loops, both ends.



              > Well, unless double-heading, you really only need hooks on the mating couplers, and if all the cars have them on both ends, you're set.
              >
              > Plus, you can hard-mount the loop to the chassis, not worry about free-floating to allow the hook to move.
              > Makes loco installation MUCH easier!
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              > > Group,
              > >
              > > I am in the process of overhauling the 90% of my collection that got damaged when I moved in early June. Spending the next few evenings paying attention to locomotives (In particular, a Varney 4-6-2 rigid frame that has a problem with the middle driver set. I think it was in the box that got dropped particularly hard).
              > >
              > > Anyway...
              > >
              > > I am re-equipping more old rolling stock with Mantua loop couplers, and have noticed, that many times, locomotives and tenders had the loop, but no hook inside. Was there a reason that many were done that way? I am thinking it is something obvious, but something I have not guessed yet...
              > >
              > > Any DISadvantages to having the hook AND loop on locomotives, or does it really matter?
              > >
              > > Thanks, all!
              > > -Steve Neubaum
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15297 From: jim heckard Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: One for the books
               
               

               
               
               
                  Just found this on eBay and thought it would be interesting. Usually I don't talk about items for sale on eBay but this is just to odd.
               
                  Go to item   220681924838   Lot 34  Brass HO unk Streamline Loco Dry Ice ?   I have heard about HO that runs on dry ice but never have seen one. Can't verify this is one but really something different. Anyone have any information about it or anything like it.
               
                                                                               Jim H
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15298 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Re: One for the books
              eaby number for this is 320603333344
               
              Think you got the number mixed up with another of the same seller's auctions.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:03 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] One for the books

               

               
               

               
               
               
                  Just found this on eBay and thought it would be interesting. Usually I don't talk about items for sale on eBay but this is just to odd.
               
                  Go to item   220681924838   Lot 34  Brass HO unk Streamline Loco Dry Ice ?   I have heard about HO that runs on dry ice but never have seen one. Can't verify this is one but really something different. Anyone have any information about it or anything like it.
               
                                                                               Jim H
               
               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15299 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/14/2010
              Subject: Amazing
              http://compare.ebay.com/like/350367941551?var=vl&sort=BestMatch

              Shop-worn for a plastic ready-to-run later Varney.....BOX ONLY!

              Buy is NOW!

              I mean, maybe a really old box, but, geez, I've got boxes like that that are new, fercryinoutloud.

              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15300 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Amazing
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:47 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Amazing


              > http://compare.ebay.com/like/350367941551?var=vl&sort=BestMatch
              >
              > Shop-worn for a plastic ready-to-run later Varney.....BOX ONLY!
              >
              > Buy is NOW!
              >
              > I mean, maybe a really old box, but, geez, I've got boxes like that that
              > are new, fercryinoutloud.
              >
              > Dave

              I agree it's way to much for just a box, BUT, this particular "plastic ready
              to run later Varney" does happen to be probably the most collectable Varney
              plastic out there.

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/70457017/pic/80363855/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

              If you're a collector who has one but no box (like me) who likes to have the
              original boxes for all his pieces (NOT like me) it just might be worth it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15301 From: John H Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Amazing
              Don,

              It's all up to the individual. I am now collecting the same stuff I had as a youth but since sold and now want back. Plus a few other pieces I find interesting....and affordable. And yes, I want the object. If there is a box, great but I sure as h**l won't pay that kind of money for one unless it adds maybe ten times that much in value to the model. And then only if I have intentions of selling the piece. But to each his/her own.

              I do have to admit that on my diecast auto collection, those that are costly I do not keep the boxes as they often lose much of their value with out them. But I'm speaking of the $120.00 & up stuff. Cheaper ones (most of my collection) I tend to dispose of the boxes cause I just don't have the room.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:47 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Amazing
              >
              >
              > > http://compare.ebay.com/like/350367941551?var=vl&sort=BestMatch
              > >
              > > Shop-worn for a plastic ready-to-run later Varney.....BOX ONLY!
              > >
              > > Buy is NOW!
              > >
              > > I mean, maybe a really old box, but, geez, I've got boxes like that that
              > > are new, fercryinoutloud.
              > >
              > > Dave
              >
              > I agree it's way to much for just a box, BUT, this particular "plastic ready
              > to run later Varney" does happen to be probably the most collectable Varney
              > plastic out there.
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/70457017/pic/80363855/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              >
              > If you're a collector who has one but no box (like me) who likes to have the
              > original boxes for all his pieces (NOT like me) it just might be worth it.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15302 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!

              Hi All!

               

              Has anyone seen this crazy $130 selling price for a pretty neat kitbashed Mantua Booster?

               

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

               

              Sean

               


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15303 From: Mike Sloane Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              "Bidding is over" on this item, but I recall that Kemtron used to sell a
              conversion kit to make a Booster into a cab forward. So it isn't exactly
              a "kitbash". But I cannot imagine anyone paying that kind of money for it.

              Mike

              On 10/15/2010 10:34 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi All!
              >
              > Has anyone seen this crazy $130 selling price for a pretty neat
              > kitbashed Mantua Booster?
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
              >
              > Sean
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15304 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              Oh Mike,
               
              Let's not split hairs here.. With the kemtron, mantua and (unknown) brass tender, plus all the other details added, I am not sure how else you could classify it as other than a kitbash. I think, once you start altering the original kit (mantua in this case) it becomes a bash, sort of that grey area beween factory and scratchbuilt. ... It is certianly not factory or scratchbuilt, which are the only two other classifications as well as extreems I know of.
               
              I have a handfull of those kemtron conversions...and a few more of Dan Bush's productions...with the plans of someday using at least one...
               
              Great piece though..doesn't matter what it sold for.
               
              Sean


              From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 10:56:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!

               

              "Bidding is over" on this item, but I recall that Kemtron used to sell a
              conversion kit to make a Booster into a cab forward. So it isn't exactly
              a "kitbash". But I cannot imagine anyone paying that kind of money for it.

              Mike

              On 10/15/2010 10:34 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi All!
              >
              > Has anyone seen this crazy $130 selling price for a pretty neat
              > kitbashed Mantua Booster?
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
              >
              > Sean


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15305 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              Not that I'm all that impressed with the loco in question, but what does Mike think it should sell for? Any kind of decent loco goes for that kind of money these days, and apparently someone did put a lot of quality work into it. I have upgraded Bowser locos for people with all the detail and lighting goodies applied (though not DCC), and they are glad to get them for $300 - $450 plus the basic cost of the kit.  And we're not talkin'  Challengers or Big Boys either.
               
              Art 
               
              In a message dated 10/15/2010 11:49:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, a69mustang4me@... writes:


              Oh Mike,
               
              Let's not split hairs here.. With the kemtron, mantua and (unknown) brass tender, plus all the other details added, I am not sure how else you could classify it as other than a kitbash. I think, once you start altering the original kit (mantua in this case) it becomes a bash, sort of that grey area beween factory and scratchbuilt. ... It is certianly not factory or scratchbuilt, which are the only two other classifications as well as extreems I know of.
               
              I have a handfull of those kemtron conversions...and a few more of Dan Bush's productions...with the plans of someday using at least one...
               
              Great piece though..doesn't matter what it sold for.
               
              Sean


              From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 10:56:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!

               

              "Bidding is over" on this item, but I recall that Kemtron used to sell a
              conversion kit to make a Booster into a cab forward. So it isn't exactly
              a "kitbash". But I cannot imagine anyone paying that kind of money for it.

              Mike

              On 10/15/2010 10:34 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi All!
              >
              > Has anyone seen this crazy $130 selling price for a pretty neat
              > kitbashed Mantua Booster?
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
              >
              > Sean


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15306 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Amazing
              Okay, tell me what's special.
              The only factory imprint seems to be "Built-Up" on the end flap.
              I've got a bunch of those boxes, still with cars in them, more neat "factory" printing on the end flap, you mean they shouldn't go to land-fill?

              And, just for grins, I don't recall seeing a 30-day auction before.
              Must have missed something.
              This one goes on another 28 days.......



              >
              > I agree it's way to much for just a box, BUT, this particular "plastic ready
              > to run later Varney" does happen to be probably the most collectable Varney
              > plastic out there.
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/70457017/pic/80363855/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              >
              > If you're a collector who has one but no box (like me) who likes to have the
              > original boxes for all his pieces (NOT like me) it just might be worth it.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15307 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              Personally, I think the loco could have used a pilot truck..
               
              at least it should have been a 2-6-0..
               
              Just my opinion and we all know what they say about those.
               
              Sean


              From: "luvprr@..." <luvprr@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 12:03:45 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!

               

              Not that I'm all that impressed with the loco in question, but what does Mike think it should sell for? Any kind of decent loco goes for that kind of money these days, and apparently someone did put a lot of quality work into it. I have upgraded Bowser locos for people with all the detail and lighting goodies applied (though not DCC), and they are glad to get them for $300 - $450 plus the basic cost of the kit.  And we're not talkin'  Challengers or Big Boys either.
               
              Art 
               
              In a message dated 10/15/2010 11:49:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, a69mustang4me@... writes:


              Oh Mike,
               
              Let's not split hairs here.. With the kemtron, mantua and (unknown) brass tender, plus all the other details added, I am not sure how else you could classify it as other than a kitbash. I think, once you start altering the original kit (mantua in this case) it becomes a bash, sort of that grey area beween factory and scratchbuilt. ... It is certianly not factory or scratchbuilt, which are the only two other classifications as well as extreems I know of.
               
              I have a handfull of those kemtron conversions...and a few more of Dan Bush's productions...with the plans of someday using at least one...
               
              Great piece though..doesn't matter what it sold for.
               
              Sean


              From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 10:56:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!

               

              "Bidding is over" on this item, but I recall that Kemtron used to sell a
              conversion kit to make a Booster into a cab forward. So it isn't exactly
              a "kitbash". But I cannot imagine anyone paying that kind of money for it.

              Mike

              On 10/15/2010 10:34 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi All!
              >
              > Has anyone seen this crazy $130 selling price for a pretty neat
              > kitbashed Mantua Booster?
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
              >
              > Sean



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15308 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: More ebait fun!
              http://cgi.ebay.com/VARNEY-HO-Union-Pacific-124-100-Diesel-B-units-/350395051165?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51952c2c9d


              Look at the photos.
              Look at the description.

              UP engines, approximately 5 hours run time (and I'll bet there is a Hobbs hourmeter wired in to prove it!), THEN look at the photos.


              "VARNEY HO Union Pacific 124:100 Diesel A & B units
              CONDITION: Box opened, approx. 5 hours operation. I saw what could be some slight paint wear - please see pictures. It also sounds like something is rattling inside the trailer. "
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15309 From: John H Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              Yes, a pilot truck would look good on it. But it is pretty neat as is. And so far as price, it certainly isn't excessive. Besides, on an auction any item is worth what someone is willing to bid, No more, no less.

              The interesting thing about this thread is that the loco in question is a Little Six.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Personally, I think the loco could have used a pilot truck..
              >
              > at least it should have been a 2-6-0..
              >
              > Just my opinion and we all know what they say about those.
              >
              > Sean
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: "luvprr@..." <luvprr@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 12:03:45 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              >
              >  
              > Not that I'm all that impressed with the loco in question, but what does Mike
              > think it should sell for? Any kind of decent loco goes for that kind of money
              > these days, and apparently someone did put a lot of quality work into it. I have
              > upgraded Bowser locos for people with all the detail and lighting goodies
              > applied (though not DCC), and they are glad to get them for $300 - $450 plus the
              > basic cost of the kit.  And we're not talkin'  Challengers or Big Boys either.
              >
              > Art 
              >
              > In a message dated 10/15/2010 11:49:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              > a69mustang4me@... writes:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >Oh Mike,
              > >
              > >Let's not split hairs here.. With the kemtron, mantua and (unknown) brass
              > >tender, plus all the other details added, I am not sure how else you could
              > >classify it as other than a kitbash. I think, once you start altering the
              > >original kit (mantua in this case) it becomes a bash, sort of that grey area
              > >beween factory and scratchbuilt. ... It is certianly not factory or
              > >scratchbuilt, which are the only two other classifications as well as extreems I
              > >know of.
              > >
              > >I have a handfull of those kemtron conversions...and a few more of Dan Bush's
              > >productions...with the plans of someday using at least one...
              > >
              > >
              > >Great piece though..doesn't matter what it sold for.
              > >
              > >Sean
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
              > >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 10:56:37 AM
              > >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              > >
              > > 
              > >"Bidding is over" on this item, but I recall that Kemtron used to sell a
              > >conversion kit to make a Booster into a cab forward. So it isn't exactly
              > >a "kitbash". But I cannot imagine anyone paying that kind of money for it.
              > >
              > >Mike
              > >
              > >On 10/15/2010 10:34 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Hi All!
              > >>
              > >> Has anyone seen this crazy $130 selling price for a pretty neat
              > >> kitbashed Mantua Booster?
              > >>
              > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              > >>T
              > >><http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
              > >>>
              > >>
              > >> Sean
              > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15310 From: John H Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
              Slight paint wear???

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/VARNEY-HO-Union-Pacific-124-100-Diesel-B-units-/350395051165?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51952c2c9d
              >
              >
              > Look at the photos.
              > Look at the description.
              >
              > UP engines, approximately 5 hours run time (and I'll bet there is a Hobbs hourmeter wired in to prove it!), THEN look at the photos.
              >
              >
              > "VARNEY HO Union Pacific 124:100 Diesel A & B units
              > CONDITION: Box opened, approx. 5 hours operation. I saw what could be some slight paint wear - please see pictures. It also sounds like something is rattling inside the trailer. "
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15311 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              John,
              Yeah.. the little six part. ..that would be my fault.. I keep forgetting the Booster with the 6 wheels is the Little Six and no longer the 0-4-0 Booster.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 1:46:29 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!

               

              Yes, a pilot truck would look good on it. But it is pretty neat as is. And so far as price, it certainly isn't excessive. Besides, on an auction any item is worth what someone is willing to bid, No more, no less.

              The interesting thing about this thread is that the loco in question is a Little Six.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Personally, I think the loco could have used a pilot truck..
              >
              > at least it should have been a 2-6-0..
              >
              > Just my opinion and we all know what they say about those.
              >
              > Sean
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: "luvprr@..." <luvprr@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 12:03:45 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              >
              >  
              > Not that I'm all that impressed with the loco in question, but what does Mike
              > think it should sell for? Any kind of decent loco goes for that kind of money
              > these days, and apparently someone did put a lot of quality work into it. I have
              > upgraded Bowser locos for people with all the detail and lighting goodies
              > applied (though not DCC), and they are glad to get them for $300 - $450 plus the
              > basic cost of the kit.  And we're not talkin'  Challengers or Big Boys either.
              >
              > Art 
              >
              > In a message dated 10/15/2010 11:49:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              > a69mustang4me@... writes:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >Oh Mike,
              > >
              > >Let's not split hairs here.. With the kemtron, mantua and (unknown) brass
              > >tender, plus all the other details added, I am not sure how else you could
              > >classify it as other than a kitbash. I think, once you start altering the
              > >original kit (mantua in this case) it becomes a bash, sort of that grey area
              > >beween factory and scratchbuilt. ... It is certianly not factory or
              > >scratchbuilt, which are the only two other classifications as well as extreems I
              > >know of.
              > >
              > >I have a handfull of those kemtron conversions...and a few more of Dan Bush's
              > >productions...with the plans of someday using at least one...
              > >
              > >
              > >Great piece though..doesn't matter what it sold for.
              > >
              > >Sean
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
              > >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 10:56:37 AM
              > >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              > >
              > > 
              > >"Bidding is over" on this item, but I recall that Kemtron used to sell a
              > >conversion kit to make a Booster into a cab forward. So it isn't exactly
              > >a "kitbash". But I cannot imagine anyone paying that kind of money for it.
              > >
              > >Mike
              > >
              > >On 10/15/2010 10:34 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Hi All!
              > >>
              > >> Has anyone seen this crazy $130 selling price for a pretty neat
              > >> kitbashed Mantua Booster?
              > >>
              > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              > >>T
              > >><http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
              > >>>
              > >>
              > >> Sean
              > >
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15312 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover Progress [2 Attachments]

              Hi Jim,

              It is looking good.  Thanks for the update.

              Take care,

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:38 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Conover Progress [2 Attachments]

               

               

               

               

                      For anyone interested the pictures will show a slow but steady progress as I try to fill in, grind & file to clean up the sandy pitted surfaces on my Conover 2-10-2 parts. I figure I am about 70-75 % done. Most of the major parts are finished but the boiler and tender frame are not. You can still see on the boiler places that are still need to be done. Learning techniques on how to best utilize hand tools especially straight and riffler files.

               

                  Very soon onto drilling , tapping and assembly which will include adding detail and fabricating missing parts.

               

                                                                               Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15313 From: hooligan Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > Slight paint wear???
              >
              > John Hagen Now John , aren't we being slightly critical ? Aye yi yi !! Henry H.
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@> wrote:
              > >
              > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VARNEY-HO-Union-Pacific-124-100-Diesel-B-units-/350395051165?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51952c2c9d
              > >
              > >
              > > Look at the photos.
              > > Look at the description.
              > >
              > > UP engines, approximately 5 hours run time (and I'll bet there is a Hobbs hourmeter wired in to prove it!), THEN look at the photos.
              > >
              > >
              > > "VARNEY HO Union Pacific 124:100 Diesel A & B units
              > > CONDITION: Box opened, approx. 5 hours operation. I saw what could be some slight paint wear - please see pictures. It also sounds like something is rattling inside the trailer. "
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15314 From: John H Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
              Somehow I was reminded of a four year old Ford Crown Vic with spot lights and holes in the truck lid where the antennas were removed. The guy swore it was only driven by Aunt Matilda to church on Sunday's and the 10,853 showing on the odometer was actual.

              Yessir, it (or the seller) was slicker than a bucket full of snot.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "hooligan" <long95209@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Slight paint wear???
              > >
              > > John Hagen Now John , aren't we being slightly critical ? Aye yi yi !! Henry H.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15315 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
              Somehow I think this seller would have been better off not to pay evilbait the $.15 per photo and had NO photos.
              But, I can think of a couple of folks who will just HAVE to have this "rare" two-tone paint job Varney........


              > Somehow I was reminded of a four year old Ford Crown Vic with spot lights and holes in the truck lid where the antennas were removed. The guy swore it was only driven by Aunt Matilda to church on Sunday's and the 10,853 showing on the odometer was actual.
              >
              > Yessir, it (or the seller) was slicker than a bucket full of snot.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15316 From: hooligan Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
              And every word was a fact ! [ If Auntie was on the force !!] PT Barnum said ; "There's a sucker born every minute !" Henry

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > Somehow I was reminded of a four year old Ford Crown Vic with spot lights and holes in the truck lid where the antennas were removed. The guy swore it was only driven by Aunt Matilda to church on Sunday's and the 10,853 showing on the odometer was actual.
              >
              > Yessir, it (or the seller) was slicker than a bucket full of snot.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "hooligan" <long95209@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Slight paint wear???
              > > >
              > > > John Hagen Now John , aren't we being slightly critical ? Aye yi yi !! Henry H.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15317 From: 23weldon Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: String of cars with Mantuas >> Baker couplers
              RE: Baker couplers .... I think if you are going to have an operational layout with 1950's models the style of John Allen is a pretty neat formula to follow.  He was happy with the performance of Baker couplers on his rolling stock as much as he was a stickler for realism and detail.  I think you could do a lot worse.  The real problem is having enough coupler sets to make a total conversion of your operational equipment.  Baker couplers are pretty hard to find.
              There are some European made couplers with a black oxide finish from that era that look similar to the Baker couplers and look like they will match up.  So that offers an additional source to fill out a roster.
              After looking at one of the Baker couplers in my collection of stuff I'd say that making your own reproductions is not out of the question.  They are made of .020" brass sheet stock.  The lifting link could be made as a photoetching.  Put the flat blank for the loop on the same etching, which will give consistent size and edge conditions.
              The loop is a straight piece 1/8" deep that could be formed up in a fairly simple set of dies.  The remaining two brass pieces that get soldered in place are simply a short pin that the lifting link pivots on and a short piece of tubing.  The biggest effort would be in deburring everything before assembly. 
              Lastly, there is the torsion spring that holds the lifting link down.  This would be a pricey devil to have manufactured and a big project to do yourself in any quantity.  But the good news here is that springs may not be needed.  IIRC John Allen reported himself that the couplers worked better without the springs.  But remember that was on the G&D, which was a heavily operated layout and had pretty good  trackwork to suit that purpose.
              Ed Weldon 
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15318 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: String of cars with Mantuas >> Baker couplers
              Yeah, the reading I have done al says the "modified Baker couplers" John Allen used were sans springs.

              That said, Bakers do show up.

              Junk drawers, on old cars...which is why I have 8 sets to part with.
              Mantuas is what I use and the Bakers will just confuse the issue.

              If anybody buys something with Bakers, hopefully they will be saving them for others and not deep-sixing them.

              Dave


              > RE: Baker couplers .... I think if you are going to have an operational layout with 1950's models the style of John Allen is a pretty neat formula to follow. He was happy with the performance of Baker couplers on his rolling stock as much as he was a stickler for realism and detail. I think you could do a lot worse. The real problem is having enough coupler sets to make a total conversion of your operational equipment. Baker couplers are pretty hard to find.
              > There are some European made couplers with a black oxide finish from that era that look similar to the Baker couplers and look like they will match up. So that offers an additional source to fill out a roster.
              > After looking at one of the Baker couplers in my collection of stuff I'd say that making your own reproductions is not out of the question. They are made of .020" brass sheet stock. The lifting link could be made as a photoetching. Put the flat blank for the loop on the same etching, which will give consistent size and edge conditions.
              > The loop is a straight piece 1/8" deep that could be formed up in a fairly simple set of dies. The remaining two brass pieces that get soldered in place are simply a short pin that the lifting link pivots on and a short piece of tubing. The biggest effort would be in deburring everything before assembly.
              > Lastly, there is the torsion spring that holds the lifting link down. This would be a pricey devil to have manufactured and a big project to do yourself in any quantity. But the good news here is that springs may not be needed. IIRC John Allen reported himself that the couplers worked better without the springs. But remember that was on the G&D, which was a heavily operated layout and had pretty good trackwork to suit that purpose.
              > Ed Weldon
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15319 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Amazing
              The secret is the insert inside the box, see how it's cut out to fit the
              frame on the end of the model.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 11:16 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Amazing


              > Okay, tell me what's special.
              > The only factory imprint seems to be "Built-Up" on the end flap.
              > I've got a bunch of those boxes, still with cars in them, more neat
              > "factory" printing on the end flap, you mean they shouldn't go to
              > land-fill?
              >
              > And, just for grins, I don't recall seeing a 30-day auction before.
              > Must have missed something.
              > This one goes on another 28 days.......
              >
              >
              >
              >>
              >> I agree it's way to much for just a box, BUT, this particular "plastic
              >> ready
              >> to run later Varney" does happen to be probably the most collectable
              >> Varney
              >> plastic out there.
              >>
              >>
              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/album/70457017/pic/80363855/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
              >>
              >> If you're a collector who has one but no box (like me) who likes to have
              >> the
              >> original boxes for all his pieces (NOT like me) it just might be worth
              >> it.
              >>
              >> Don
              >>
              >> Don Dellmann
              >> don.dellmann@...
              >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              >> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              >> Owner
              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15320 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
              How can he detect "slight paint wear" when the original finish has been
              brush painted over with what looks like Testors Pla?

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 12:19 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] More ebait fun!


              > http://cgi.ebay.com/VARNEY-HO-Union-Pacific-124-100-Diesel-B-units-/350395051165?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51952c2c9d
              >
              >
              > Look at the photos.
              > Look at the description.
              >
              > UP engines, approximately 5 hours run time (and I'll bet there is a Hobbs
              > hourmeter wired in to prove it!), THEN look at the photos.
              >
              >
              > "VARNEY HO Union Pacific 124:100 Diesel A & B units
              > CONDITION: Box opened, approx. 5 hours operation. I saw what could be some
              > slight paint wear - please see pictures. It also sounds like something is
              > rattling inside the trailer. "
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15321 From: Pawel Artmeijer Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Mantua Cab Forward
              I have done a few of these conversions.  They are quite fun and definately get lots of looks.  Yes, the front pilot truck is a must for these to look right. I use the spoked wheels on mine. I have only done the 0-4-0 shifters.  I do have a couple of fronts for the larger engines 2-8-2 etc but have never done one. The parts are stored for a later project.  They are really not that hard to do, just time consuming.  If you have never done one I would recommend doing one just to have a conversation piece on the layout.  The hardest part for me was conectting the tender back to the engine.  I had to make my own drawbars.  Never have really found a good way around this part.  I am always looking for a suggestion on how to make this part work better.
               
              paul 

              --- On Fri, 10/15/10, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:

              From: Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 12:52 PM

               
              John,
              Yeah.. the little six part. ..that would be my fault.. I keep forgetting the Booster with the 6 wheels is the Little Six and no longer the 0-4-0 Booster.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 1:46:29 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!

               
              Yes, a pilot truck would look good on it. But it is pretty neat as is. And so far as price, it certainly isn't excessive. Besides, on an auction any item is worth what someone is willing to bid, No more, no less.

              The interesting thing about this thread is that the loco in question is a Little Six.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Personally, I think the loco could have used a pilot truck..
              >
              > at least it should have been a 2-6-0..
              >
              > Just my opinion and we all know what they say about those.
              >
              > Sean
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: "luvprr@..." <luvprr@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 12:03:45 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              >
              >  
              > Not that I'm all that impressed with the loco in question, but what does Mike
              > think it should sell for? Any kind of decent loco goes for that kind of money
              > these days, and apparently someone did put a lot of quality work into it. I have
              > upgraded Bowser locos for people with all the detail and lighting goodies
              > applied (though not DCC), and they are glad to get them for $300 - $450 plus the
              > basic cost of the kit.  And we're not talkin'  Challengers or Big Boys either.
              >
              > Art 
              >
              > In a message dated 10/15/2010 11:49:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              > a69mustang4me@... writes:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >Oh Mike,
              > >
              > >Let's not split hairs here.. With the kemtron, mantua and (unknown) brass
              > >tender, plus all the other details added, I am not sure how else you could
              > >classify it as other than a kitbash. I think, once you start altering the
              > >original kit (mantua in this case) it becomes a bash, sort of that grey area
              > >beween factory and scratchbuilt. ... It is certianly not factory or
              > >scratchbuilt, which are the only two other classifications as well as extreems I
              > >know of.
              > >
              > >I have a handfull of those kemtron conversions...and a few more of Dan Bush's
              > >productions...with the plans of someday using at least one...
              > >
              > >
              > >Great piece though..doesn't matter what it sold for.
              > >
              > >Sean
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
              > >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 10:56:37 AM
              > >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua Booster Cab Forward sold for $130 on eBay!
              > >
              > > 
              > >"Bidding is over" on this item, but I recall that Kemtron used to sell a
              > >conversion kit to make a Booster into a cab forward. So it isn't exactly
              > >a "kitbash". But I cannot imagine anyone paying that kind of money for it.
              > >
              > >Mike
              > >
              > >On 10/15/2010 10:34 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Hi All!
              > >>
              > >> Has anyone seen this crazy $130 selling price for a pretty neat
              > >> kitbashed Mantua Booster?
              > >>
              > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              > >>T
              > >><http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120631329911&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT>
              > >>>
              > >>
              > >> Sean
              > >
              > >
              >



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15322 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Mantua Cab Forward
              On 10/15/2010 11:26 PM, Pawel Artmeijer wrote:
               

              I have done a few of these conversions.  They are quite fun and definately get lots of looks.  Yes, the front pilot truck is a must for these to look right. I use the spoked wheels on mine. I have only done the 0-4-0 shifters.  I do have a couple of fronts for the larger engines 2-8-2 etc but have never done one. The parts are stored for a later project.  They are really not that hard to do, just time consuming.  If you have never done one I would recommend doing one just to have a conversation piece on the layout.  The hardest part for me was conectting the tender back to the engine.  I had to make my own drawbars.  Never have really found a good way around this part.  I am always looking for a suggestion on how to make this part work better.
               

              Have built one long ago... unfortunately, used a cheap AHM / Mehano version to start with, the type that has no valve gear but only a rod/ crosshead/ piston rod stamping... did a lot of modifications to the body, some day I will put her on a Rivarossi drive to get rid of the embarrasing sight.
              for the pilot truck, I used a dummy truck from an Bachmann track geometry car as I had it on hand. . Fits quite well but no spokes
              Re tender - used a MDC Vanderbilt, and equipped both rear (smokebox end) of loco and tender front end with Kadees... so the loco may run  without tender if necessary; with onboard oil and water tanks she may do so.

              Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15323 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
              Or a half rattle can of black.

              The work involved (and it appears to be a plastic unit anyway) to clean that paint off, and hope to save the factory lettering, then you're gonna find the paint is chipped or blistered off (seen a LOT of that "blistered paint" in the ready-to-run later Varney stuff) and you just threw all that money down a rat hole.

              It'll get bid up by people who don't do their homework.
              Just watch.

              Dave

              > How can he detect "slight paint wear" when the original finish has been
              > brush painted over with what looks like Testors Pla?
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 12:19 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] More ebait fun!
              >
              >
              > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VARNEY-HO-Union-Pacific-124-100-Diesel-B-units-/350395051165?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51952c2c9d
              > >
              > >
              > > Look at the photos.
              > > Look at the description.
              > >
              > > UP engines, approximately 5 hours run time (and I'll bet there is a Hobbs
              > > hourmeter wired in to prove it!), THEN look at the photos.
              > >
              > >
              > > "VARNEY HO Union Pacific 124:100 Diesel A & B units
              > > CONDITION: Box opened, approx. 5 hours operation. I saw what could be some
              > > slight paint wear - please see pictures. It also sounds like something is
              > > rattling inside the trailer. "
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15324 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/15/2010
              Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
              Sounds like a couple of "Copmobiles" I had assigned while working for
              MontereyCounty--it was interesting how cars moved over for me when I came up
              behind gthem--especially on a couple of trips to the Bay Area for meetings
              each month.

              The county motor pool would try and "recycle" any of the cars the deputies
              hadn't wrecked or worn out.

              On the "aunt Matilda" note--I always liked the Charles Addams cartoon of
              the used car salesman saying, "It was owned by a little old lady who only
              used it to carbon monoxide three husbands".
              gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "hooligan" <long95209@...>
              Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 1:05 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: More ebait fun!

              > And every word was a fact ! [ If Auntie was on the force !!] PT Barnum
              > said ; "There's a sucker born every minute !" Henry
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Somehow I was reminded of a four year old Ford Crown Vic with spot lights
              >> and holes in the truck lid where the antennas were removed. The guy swore
              >> it was only driven by Aunt Matilda to church on Sunday's and the 10,853
              >> showing on the odometer was actual.
              >>
              >> Yessir, it (or the seller) was slicker than a bucket full of snot.
              >>
              >> John Hagen
              >>
              >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "hooligan" <long95209@> wrote:
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@> wrote:
              >> > >
              >> > > Slight paint wear???
              >> > >
              >> > > John Hagen Now John , aren't we being slightly critical ? Aye yi yi
              >> > > !! Henry H.
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15325 From: Nelson Date: 10/16/2010
              Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
              I hope UP is aware of this auction so they get a cut for someone making a profit on their "basic black" scheme.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              > How can he detect "slight paint wear" when the original finish has been
              > brush painted over with what looks like Testors Pla?
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 12:19 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] More ebait fun!
              >
              >
              > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VARNEY-HO-Union-Pacific-124-100-Diesel-B-units-/350395051165?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51952c2c9d
              > >
              > >
              > > Look at the photos.
              > > Look at the description.
              > >
              > > UP engines, approximately 5 hours run time (and I'll bet there is a Hobbs
              > > hourmeter wired in to prove it!), THEN look at the photos.
              > >
              > >
              > > "VARNEY HO Union Pacific 124:100 Diesel A & B units
              > > CONDITION: Box opened, approx. 5 hours operation. I saw what could be some
              > > slight paint wear - please see pictures. It also sounds like something is
              > > rattling inside the trailer. "
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15326 From: hooligan Date: 10/16/2010
              Subject: Re: More ebait fun!
              Hi Nelson , Don , Perhaps it's a Premium Edition with the added "stealth" war time element ? HH

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <greenbrier614@...> wrote:
              >
              > I hope UP is aware of this auction so they get a cut for someone making a profit on their "basic black" scheme.
              >
              > Nelson
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@> wrote:
              > >
              > > How can he detect "slight paint wear" when the original finish has been
              > > brush painted over with what looks like Testors Pla?
              > >
              > > Don
              > >
              > > Don Dellmann
              > > don.dellmann@
              > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > Owner
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@>
              > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 12:19 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] More ebait fun!
              > >
              > >
              > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VARNEY-HO-Union-Pacific-124-100-Diesel-B-units-/350395051165?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51952c2c9d
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Look at the photos.
              > > > Look at the description.
              > > >
              > > > UP engines, approximately 5 hours run time (and I'll bet there is a Hobbs
              > > > hourmeter wired in to prove it!), THEN look at the photos.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > "VARNEY HO Union Pacific 124:100 Diesel A & B units
              > > > CONDITION: Box opened, approx. 5 hours operation. I saw what could be some
              > > > slight paint wear - please see pictures. It also sounds like something is
              > > > rattling inside the trailer. "
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15327 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/16/2010
              Subject: Some New Stuff
              This weekend is the Big Texas Train Show at the convention center
              here in Houston, sponsored by the Houston Railroad Museum and Steam
              Locomotive Historical Society. I found a few items among he offerings of
              the pushers... er, dealers... of interest.
              I acquired 3 built-up Central Valley cars: B-94, Chicago, Lake Shore
              & Eastern boxcar; F-91, Philadelphia & Reading refrigerator car; and
              F-94, Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul refrigerator car. The 2 reefers are
              nicely done and in fine shape, but the boxcar is an odd bird with a
              solid door on one side and a ventilated door on the other. It needs a
              bit of touching up here and there too. All of them have the original CV
              trucks and Kadees.
              The next item of interest is a La Belle 15th Anniversary limited
              edition 3-in-1 kit. This builds into a Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis &
              Omaha vegetable car, a CL&W (prototype name?) gondola, and an Elgin,
              Joliet & Eastern gondola car. Hard to tell with something of this sort
              if all of the original parts are there but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
              Another find was an Athearn yellow box metal tank car kit painted
              for Union Oil Co. My father worked for Union Oil for over 35 years so I
              had to grab this. Unfortunately I later found that the dome casting has
              a very noticeable crack in it, to my disappointment. Perhaps it can be
              filled with putty and painted over.
              The next item is an Ulrich #150 Modern Flatcar kit with the side
              castings painted for Southern Pacific. No signs of zinc rot on any of
              the castings here yet. I passed on several Ulrich composite gondolas
              from the same dealer that were beginning to show signs of deterioration.
              Lastly is a Suydam #20 3 Track Interurban Car Barn. I'm hoping I may
              be able to organize a modular traction group here like the other in
              Eastern Pennsylvania and Southern California, and this would be a great
              item to build a first module around.
              This more than shot my wad for the day. There were a few Ulrich
              hopper kits around that I passed on and a number of Varney, Globe, Comet
              and similar very old items which don't interest me, but I'm happy with
              my haul for the day.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Paint Shirley Temple Black.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15328 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/16/2010
              Subject: Fun!
              I ended up with a Varney F-5 GN flatcar, metal wrapper over wood.
              Unfortunately, most of this batch was stored wet....some sides warped (fixable) screws rusted into wood (cleaned) brass wheels green (fixed), but this flatcar...the main wood floor under the metal had cupped legthwise.
              Lifted the sides up in a "U" shape, you looked down the end and it was like a cut piece of pipe.

              I un-peeled the edges, removed the hardware, worked the floor piece out.
              I think I'll save it.....it will make a good caboose roof someday.
              A friend brought over a big sheet of 1/8" marine plywood (for model boats), I cut out a section, sanded it to an exact fit, siliconed it (thin film) into the metal, wood block, 4 big clamps, left it on my heater all day.

              Re-bent the metal, drilled for couplers and truck screws, removed the center sill and cross braces, re-glued...when dry, Engine Black with a brush underneath....letting it dry overnight......put the rest together tomorrow.

              I enjoy "saving" this stuff.
              Had the guys over for an operating session last night (substantially larger scale/gauge than H0) and showed them this stuff.....from the first old wood and cardstock boxcar I worked on several years ago (mouse-eaten, dropped, dinged, frayed)....but it's presentable, and on it's wheels.

              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15329 From: railroads@slingshot.co.nz Date: 10/16/2010
              Subject: Photo on Groups - ID Wanted
              Hi Guys


              A couple of year ago I got some stuff from Sean, amongst it was the chassis in photo. See Photos - 1 Vintage ID

              Have looked at HOseeker under Bachmann with no luck. The motor apparnetly is a Bachmann.

              Thanks

              Charlie Harris
              New Zealand
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15330 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Fun!
              from the first old wood and cardstock boxcar I worked on several years ago (      mouse-eaten    !!!!!, dropped, dinged, frayed)....but it's presentable, and on it's wheels.

              Dave,

              And I thought I have unusual problems with my models !!

              Gerold

              reminds me of the infamous East German Trabant Automobile... its body was built from some laminated stuff, composed of textile fibers and epoxy or similar... like the hard paper used in electronic circuitry in the fifties ... have been told that when Trabants were stored in mouse infested places the mice gnawed on them...
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15331 From: Fred Krause Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: (no subject)
              http://www.zollhoefers.de/mfoto.php
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15332 From: Sean Naylor Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: (unknown)-This is SPAM!
              Looks like someones email was hacked.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15333 From: Nelson Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Photo on Groups - ID Wanted
              Hi Charlie,

              That's the chassis for an old Bachmann Plasser EM80C track geometry vehicle. I still have one in UP. The fact that they got away with calling it a track cleaner is a miracle, since it was much better at soaking your roadbed for laying down ballast. Whatever fluid you put in the tank just poured right out.

              Nelson


              http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/bachmannhoscalelocomotives/id62.html

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, railroads@... wrote:
              >
              > Hi Guys
              >
              >
              > A couple of year ago I got some stuff from Sean, amongst it was the chassis in photo. See Photos - 1 Vintage ID
              >
              > Have looked at HOseeker under Bachmann with no luck. The motor apparnetly is a Bachmann.
              >
              > Thanks
              >
              > Charlie Harris
              > New Zealand
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15334 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Photo on Groups - ID Wanted
              That would be the Plasser EM80C

              http://www.hoseeker.net/assemblyexplosionbachmann/bachmannplasserem80cdiagram1990.jpg
              --- On Sat, 10/16/10, railroads@... <railroads@...> wrote:

              From: railroads@... <railroads@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Photo on Groups - ID Wanted
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, October 16, 2010, 11:30 PM

              Hi Guys


              A couple of year ago I got some stuff from Sean, amongst it was the chassis in photo.  See Photos - 1 Vintage ID

              Have looked at HOseeker under Bachmann with no luck.  The motor apparnetly is a Bachmann.

              Thanks

              Charlie Harris
              New Zealand



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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15335 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: (unknown)-This is SPAM!
              On 10/17/2010 8:53 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              >
              >
              > Looks like someones email was hacked.

              There's been in infestation of these hacked e-dresses all over the
              various Yahoo lists to which I subscribe. Unfortunately not much can be
              done once a spammer gets hold of an e-dress except close that account
              and open a new one.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Health nuts are going to feel stupid some day, lying in
              hospitals dying of nothing.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15336 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: (unknown)-This is SPAM!
              I've already put it on moderation.

              This has happened to a couple people lately. It's not their fault, but if
              their names are in someone else's address book there are spam harvesters out
              there that will hijack it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Sean Naylor" <a69mustang4me@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 8:53 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] (unknown)-This is SPAM!


              > Looks like someones email was hacked.
              >
              > Sean
              > 1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15337 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Fun!
              Yup.
              You can see the teeth marks.
              Corners amashed in, damp damage, mouse eaten, frayed......and yet, figured out how to fix them all, so far.....


              > from the first old wood and cardstock boxcar I worked on several years
              > ago ( */mouse-eaten/* */ !!!!!/*, dropped, dinged, frayed)....but it's
              > presentable, and on it's wheels.
              >
              > Dave,
              >
              > And I thought I have unusual problems with my models !!
              >
              > Gerold
              >
              > reminds me of the infamous East German Trabant Automobile... its body
              > was built from some laminated stuff, composed of textile fibers and
              > epoxy or similar... like the hard paper used in electronic circuitry in
              > the fifties ... have been told that when Trabants were stored in mouse
              > infested places the mice gnawed on them...
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15338 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: (unknown)-This is SPAM!
              Having your computer checked to make sure it has no viruses/worms/trojan horses, and THEN changing your password is pretty effective.

              Seen a dozen or so computers at my shop with this issue over the past month. Most had viruses and malware issues. After fixing this, I instruct customers to then change their login passwords.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Sun, 10/17/10, Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...> wrote:

              From: Rick Jones <r.t.jones@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] (unknown)-This is SPAM!
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, October 17, 2010, 11:27 AM

               

              On 10/17/2010 8:53 AM, Sean Naylor wrote:
              >
              >
              > Looks like someones email was hacked.

              There's been in infestation of these hacked e-dresses all over the
              various Yahoo lists to which I subscribe. Unfortunately not much can be
              done once a spammer gets hold of an e-dress except close that account
              and open a new one.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Health nuts are going to feel stupid some day, lying in
              hospitals dying of nothing.

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15339 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Staples
              No, not spam.

              I have a string of metal staples, came with a bunch of stuff last Christmas.
              I am now down to two staples, so I need more.

              These are 1/8" wide, and 1/4" long.
              Chisel tip, like they'd fit into a stapler.

              I find them ideal for stirrup steps when rebuilding old wood and cardstock side cars.

              I have searched the internet, almost every "hit" adds a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 9 to the prefix, and I don't need nine inch staples.

              Anybody know where to find these?
              Thanks.
              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15340 From: Lennard Stewart Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Staples
              Lennard Stewart wrote:

                                   Hi Dave try looking under Air Upolstery Staples or Staplers.
                                       Hope this helps.
              Lennard Stewart
              Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/


              trainsnwrcs wrote:
               

              No, not spam.

              I have a string of metal staples, came with a bunch of stuff last Christmas.
              I am now down to two staples, so I need more.

              These are 1/8" wide, and 1/4" long.
              Chisel tip, like they'd fit into a stapler.

              I find them ideal for stirrup steps when rebuilding old wood and cardstock side cars.

              I have searched the internet, almost every "hit" adds a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 9 to the prefix, and I don't need nine inch staples.

              Anybody know where to find these?
              Thanks.
              Dave

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15341 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Staples
              Dave--those sound like Kadee  spikes. The Spiker was initially developed by Tru-Scale for assembling their Ready Track  It bites a little piece out of the center of the staple as it drives it in--making 2 spikes.   They have two sizes--for Code 100 and Code 70 rail.  Kadee still sells the spikes--about 4000 in a package.
               
              Glenn Joesten

              Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 2:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Staples

              Lennard Stewart wrote:

                                   Hi Dave try looking under Air Upolstery Staples or Staplers.
                                       Hope this helps.
              Lennard Stewart
              Owner of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1-87scalevehiclesales/


              trainsnwrcs wrote:
               

              No, not spam.

              I have a string of metal staples, came with a bunch of stuff last Christmas.
              I am now down to two staples, so I need more.

              These are 1/8" wide, and 1/4" long.
              Chisel tip, like they'd fit into a stapler.

              I find them ideal for stirrup steps when rebuilding old wood and cardstock side cars.

              I have searched the internet, almost every "hit" adds a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 9 to the prefix, and I don't need nine inch staples.

              Anybody know where to find these?
              Thanks.
              Dave

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15342 From: Wally Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Can one of the group supply some information?
              During a recent visit to Gettysburg, I visited Gilbert's Hobby Shop and
              saw two 4-4-2's lettered for the C&NW and numbered 157. As I grew up in
              Chicago and saw C&NW steam in action, I bought both.

              They are both die cast and the frame/floor of one of the tenders is
              cracked and warped, something I associate with old Zamac castings. Both
              run fairly well after some clean up and lubrication.

              I posted two pictures, one showing an assembled one and one
              dis-assembeld showing the repair I made to the valve gear hanger. I
              think one will be a runner and the other a display piece. My folder is
              named "Wally", of course.

              Can one of the group members tell me who was the manufactuer and about
              when they were made? Thanks!!
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15343 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Can one of the group supply some information?
              I have two of these locomotives, both made by GHC-AristoCraft.

              The zamak rot issue is common on these locomotives.

              I want to say they were made late 1950s into the 1960s.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Sun, 10/17/10, Wally <dim01521@...> wrote:

              From: Wally <dim01521@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Can one of the group supply some information?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, October 17, 2010, 9:15 PM

               


              During a recent visit to Gettysburg, I visited Gilbert's Hobby Shop and
              saw two 4-4-2's lettered for the C&NW and numbered 157. As I grew up in
              Chicago and saw C&NW steam in action, I bought both.

              They are both die cast and the frame/floor of one of the tenders is
              cracked and warped, something I associate with old Zamac castings. Both
              run fairly well after some clean up and lubrication.

              I posted two pictures, one showing an assembled one and one
              dis-assembeld showing the repair I made to the valve gear hanger. I
              think one will be a runner and the other a display piece. My folder is
              named "Wally", of course.

              Can one of the group members tell me who was the manufactuer and about
              when they were made? Thanks!!

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15344 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/17/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /V List Varney cars.xls
              Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
              Description : List of Varney cars

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Varney%20cars.xls

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

              Regards,

              chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15345 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 10/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Can one of the group supply some information?
              As Steve Neubaum relates, these were sold by GHC-AristoCraft and made by "New One Models" of Tokyo, Japan, circa 1959-1960.
              There was a later one with a cast brass body, and still later a brass model made by Tenshodo of this CNW prototype.  All have great similarities in the drive mechanism.  I believe they have a common heritage - does anyone know? 

              Reed


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, Oct 17, 2010 10:19 pm
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can one of the group supply some information?

               
              I have two of these locomotives, both made by GHC-AristoCraft.

              The zamak rot issue is common on these locomotives.

              I want to say they were made late 1950s into the 1960s.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Sun, 10/17/10, Wally <dim01521@...> wrote:

              From: Wally <dim01521@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Can one of the group supply some information?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, October 17, 2010, 9:15 PM

               

              During a recent visit to Gettysburg, I visited Gilbert's Hobby Shop and
              saw two 4-4-2's lettered for the C&NW and numbered 157. As I grew up in
              Chicago and saw C&NW steam in action, I bought both.

              They are both die cast and the frame/floor of one of the tenders is
              cracked and warped, something I associate with old Zamac castings. Both
              run fairly well after some clean up and lubrication.

              I posted two pictures, one showing an assembled one and one
              dis-assembeld showing the repair I made to the valve gear hanger. I
              think one will be a runner and the other a display piece. My folder is
              named "Wally", of course.

              Can one of the group members tell me who was the manufactuer and about
              when they were made? Thanks!!

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15346 From: jim heckard Date: 10/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Can one of the group supply some information?
              
               
               
                    Just a little addition to this thread. GHC and Aristo-Craft were actually two different companies that in this case both sold the same 4-4-2 type engine that was made by New One.
               
                  GHC stands for General Hobbies Corporation of Philadelphia. They sold products under the HOTCO name ( HO Train Company ). GHC was the forerunner of AHM and IHC
               
                    Aristo-Craft was a trade mark name that belonged to Nathan Polk of Polk Hobbies of NY. Under the Aristo-Craft label the same 4-4-2 was sold as  Distinctive Miniatures    184 Pennsylvania Ave. Newark NJ
               
                  The Aristo name was also combined with Aristo-Rossi for Rivarossi products he sold and  Aristo-Rokal TT  for Rokal TT products he sold .
               
                                                                                         Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 8:50 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can one of the group supply some information?

               

              As Steve Neubaum relates, these were sold by GHC-AristoCraft and made by "New One Models" of Tokyo, Japan, circa 1959-1960.
              There was a later one with a cast brass body, and still later a brass model made by Tenshodo of this CNW prototype.  All have great similarities in the drive mechanism.  I believe they have a common heritage - does anyone know? 

              Reed


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, Oct 17, 2010 10:19 pm
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Can one of the group supply some information?

               
              I have two of these locomotives, both made by GHC-AristoCraft.

              The zamak rot issue is common on these locomotives.

              I want to say they were made late 1950s into the 1960s.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Sun, 10/17/10, Wally <dim01521@...> wrote:

              From: Wally <dim01521@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Can one of the group supply some information?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, October 17, 2010, 9:15 PM

               

              During a recent visit to Gettysburg, I visited Gilbert's Hobby Shop and
              saw two 4-4-2's lettered for the C&NW and numbered 157. As I grew up in
              Chicago and saw C&NW steam in action, I bought both.

              They are both die cast and the frame/floor of one of the tenders is
              cracked and warped, something I associate with old Zamac castings. Both
              run fairly well after some clean up and lubrication.

              I posted two pictures, one showing an assembled one and one
              dis-assembeld showing the repair I made to the valve gear hanger. I
              think one will be a runner and the other a display piece. My folder is
              named "Wally", of course.

              Can one of the group members tell me who was the manufactuer and about
              when they were made? Thanks!!

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15347 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Some New Stuff
              Wish I could have gotten my name in for stuff early.....
              Those decomposing composite gons from Ulrich.....

              I have two, one CNJ, complete, one brown, unlettered, had for 23-24 years, missing the stamped metal ends.

              Anybody have a decomposing composite Ulrich gon that I can get the stampted tin ends from before it goes to the scrapyard in the sky?

              I mean, this one works....I just tell folks it's a pipe car, but looks bad when you couple it near the "complete" one.

              Thought about whacking up some old boxcar ends......nah.

              Dave

              > This weekend is the Big Texas Train Show at the convention center
              > here in Houston, sponsored by the Houston Railroad Museum and Steam
              > Locomotive Historical Society. I found a few items among he offerings of
              > the pushers... er, dealers... of interest.
              > I acquired 3 built-up Central Valley cars: B-94, Chicago, Lake Shore
              > & Eastern boxcar; F-91, Philadelphia & Reading refrigerator car; and
              > F-94, Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul refrigerator car. The 2 reefers are
              > nicely done and in fine shape, but the boxcar is an odd bird with a
              > solid door on one side and a ventilated door on the other. It needs a
              > bit of touching up here and there too. All of them have the original CV
              > trucks and Kadees.
              > The next item of interest is a La Belle 15th Anniversary limited
              > edition 3-in-1 kit. This builds into a Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis &
              > Omaha vegetable car, a CL&W (prototype name?) gondola, and an Elgin,
              > Joliet & Eastern gondola car. Hard to tell with something of this sort
              > if all of the original parts are there but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
              > Another find was an Athearn yellow box metal tank car kit painted
              > for Union Oil Co. My father worked for Union Oil for over 35 years so I
              > had to grab this. Unfortunately I later found that the dome casting has
              > a very noticeable crack in it, to my disappointment. Perhaps it can be
              > filled with putty and painted over.
              > The next item is an Ulrich #150 Modern Flatcar kit with the side
              > castings painted for Southern Pacific. No signs of zinc rot on any of
              > the castings here yet. I passed on several Ulrich composite gondolas
              > from the same dealer that were beginning to show signs of deterioration.
              > Lastly is a Suydam #20 3 Track Interurban Car Barn. I'm hoping I may
              > be able to organize a modular traction group here like the other in
              > Eastern Pennsylvania and Southern California, and this would be a great
              > item to build a first module around.
              > This more than shot my wad for the day. There were a few Ulrich
              > hopper kits around that I passed on and a number of Varney, Globe, Comet
              > and similar very old items which don't interest me, but I'm happy with
              > my haul for the day.
              >
              > --
              >
              > Rick Jones
              >
              > Paint Shirley Temple Black.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15348 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 10/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Some New Stuff
              Rick, The CL&W was the Cleveland Lorain & Wheeling RR, which was bought
              and merged with the B&O (Baltimore & Ohio) in 1915. Ray F. W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15349 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/18/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /John_H_Ad's_etc/Shifter_Detailing.pdf
              Uploaded by : sprinthag <sprinthag@...>
              Description : Model_Railroader_9-51

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/John_H_Ad%27s_etc/Shifter_Detailing.pdf

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

              Regards,

              sprinthag <sprinthag@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15350 From: Rick Jones Date: 10/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Some New Stuff
              On 10/18/2010 12:45 PM, erieberk@... wrote:
              > Rick, The CL&W was the Cleveland Lorain& Wheeling RR, which was bought
              > and merged with the B&O (Baltimore& Ohio) in 1915. Ray F. W.</HTML>

              Thanks, nice to know. Had not heard of that one.

              --

              Rick Jones

              Last summer I joined the Sexual Freedom League, and within two
              months my team was in 1st Place.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15351 From: jim heckard Date: 10/18/2010
              Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
               

               
               
                  Anyone know anything about an older style 0-8-0 engine by Kemtron that is brass ?
               
                                                                 Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15352 From: Matthew Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Jim,

              That is actually an import that Kemtron marketed. And it was originally an old time 2-8-0. They brought it in with a 4-4-0.

              Matt


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Anyone know anything about an older style 0-8-0 engine by Kemtron that is brass ?
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15353 From: Howard R Garner Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
              No such animal to my knowledge.

              Howard Garner
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15354 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              I recall an old-timer 0-8-0T (side or "pannier" tanks) that I think Kemtron
              imported--possibly PFM--I think it was a move to sell detailing parts-- gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 7:57 AM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Kemtron 0-8-0

              >
              > Jim,
              >
              > That is actually an import that Kemtron marketed. And it was originally an
              > old time 2-8-0. They brought it in with a 4-4-0.
              >
              > Matt
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Anyone know anything about an older style 0-8-0 engine by Kemtron
              >> that is brass ?
              >>
              >> Jim H
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15355 From: jim heckard Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
               

                       I won item 220681924838   Lot 56 Kemtron 0-8-0 Steam Engine. It is listed as HO but in one place HOn3.
               
                   I know Kemtron made a lot of parts including a drive and up grade for the Varney Aero Train but I don't know much about complete engines. I do know they made some tenders, some HOn3 and some TT stuff. From HOseeker I knew about their HOn3  2-8-0 " Montezuma" but this is not the same engine
               
                  It might be listed wrong not even be Kemtron and even be plastic. Could even had been a 2-8-0 since there is room for a leading truck.
               
                  Since the item I won was not going to high,  might be Kemtron and possibly brass I gave it a shot but have been unable to find it listed anywhere. Just thought it might be interesting. If not an addition for the collection I will repair and resell. For what I paid it was cheap.
               
                  I admit Kemtron is not one of the vintage items I seek out for my collection or know much about. I bought it as a whim. When it arrives I will know for sure.
               
                                                                  Jim H
               
                 
               
                                                             
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15356 From: jim heckard Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
                I have been of the opinion that this engine I bought was an MDC 2-8-0  ( everything matches ) but I wanted to see why the seller said Kemtron. That is why I asked was there a Kemtron 0-8-0.
               
                                                       Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:17 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

              No such animal to my knowledge.

              Howard Garner

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15357 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Jim, I am quite sure this is an MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0 Oldtimer. May be either cast or plastic or a combination of both. Have used one of them as a donor for my Pro Customs Hobbies Camel kit a few months ago.

              Gerold
               

               

                       I won item 220681924838   Lot 56 Kemtron 0-8-0 Steam Engine. It is listed as HO but in one place HOn3.
               
                   I know Kemtron made a lot of parts including a drive and up grade for the Varney Aero Train but I don't know much about complete engines. I do know they made some tenders, some HOn3 and some TT stuff. From HOseeker I knew about their HOn3  2-8-0 " Montezuma" but this is not the same engine
               
                  It might be listed wrong not even be Kemtron and even be plastic. Could even had been a 2-8-0 since there is room for a leading truck.
               
                  Since the item I won was not going to high,  might be Kemtron and possibly brass I gave it a shot but have been unable to find it listed anywhere. Just thought it might be interesting. If not an addition for the collection I will repair and resell. For what I paid it was cheap.
               
                  I admit Kemtron is not one of the vintage items I seek out for my collection or know much about. I bought it as a whim. When it arrives I will know for sure.
               
                                                                  Jim H
               
                 
               
                                                             

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15358 From: jim heckard Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Hi Gerold,
               
                   I'm pretty sure you are right. When I first saw it I thought MDC but I guess I got a little " greedy" with the word Kemtron. ( Probably the drawbar or something small has Kemtron on it ).  Just thought maybe a close match by Kemtron to MDC.  I kept looking and looking at the pictures and blowing them up to 150% but poor eye sight and not being sure I figure I'd put in a small bid. 
               
                   Nice hearing from you,.
               
                                                                           Jim
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 2:36 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kemtron 0-8-0

               

              Jim, I am quite sure this is an MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0 Oldtimer. May be either cast or plastic or a combination of both. Have used one of them as a donor for my Pro Customs Hobbies Camel kit a few months ago.

              Gerold

               

               

                       I won item 220681924838   Lot 56 Kemtron 0-8-0 Steam Engine. It is listed as HO but in one place HOn3.
               
                   I know Kemtron made a lot of parts including a drive and up grade for the Varney Aero Train but I don't know much about complete engines. I do know they made some tenders, some HOn3 and some TT stuff. From HOseeker I knew about their HOn3  2-8-0 " Montezuma" but this is not the same engine
               
                  It might be listed wrong not even be Kemtron and even be plastic. Could even had been a 2-8-0 since there is room for a leading truck.
               
                  Since the item I won was not going to high,  might be Kemtron and possibly brass I gave it a shot but have been unable to find it listed anywhere. Just thought it might be interesting. If not an addition for the collection I will repair and resell. For what I paid it was cheap.
               
                  I admit Kemtron is not one of the vintage items I seek out for my collection or know much about. I bought it as a whim. When it arrives I will know for sure.
               
                                                                  Jim H
               
                 
               
                                                             

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15359 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Hi Gerald,
               
              That does have the look of the MDC boiler and cab alright, a Kemtron 2-8-0 would have a lot more detail, and the boiler would be different, I've built enough of the old timer MDC engines, this is definitely an old MDC, not in very good condition at that, the brass wheelsets are also a dead giveaway!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: Gerold Eckl <corv8@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 2:36:28 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Kemtron 0-8-0

               

              Jim, I am quite sure this is an MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0 Oldtimer. May be either cast or plastic or a combination of both. Have used one of them as a donor for my Pro Customs Hobbies Camel kit a few months ago.

              Gerold

               

               

                       I won item 220681924838   Lot 56 Kemtron 0-8-0 Steam Engine. It is listed as HO but in one place HOn3.
               
                   I know Kemtron made a lot of parts including a drive and up grade for the Varney Aero Train but I don't know much about complete engines. I do know they made some tenders, some HOn3 and some TT stuff. From HOseeker I knew about their HOn3  2-8-0 " Montezuma" but this is not the same engine
               
                  It might be listed wrong not even be Kemtron and even be plastic. Could even had been a 2-8-0 since there is room for a leading truck.
               
                  Since the item I won was not going to high,  might be Kemtron and possibly brass I gave it a shot but have been unable to find it listed anywhere. Just thought it might be interesting. If not an addition for the collection I will repair and resell. For what I paid it was cheap.
               
                  I admit Kemtron is not one of the vintage items I seek out for my collection or know much about. I bought it as a whim. When it arrives I will know for sure.
               
                                                                  Jim H
               
                 
               
                                                             


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15360 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Hi Jim,
               
              Yes there was a Kemtron HOn3 0-8-0, it was a small tank engine and was based on the C-16 frame, it was also a brass kit, just like the old Kemtron C-16's, which were nice engines if one could get them put together, PSC carried the parts for a number of years after Kemtron went the way of the dinosaurs....
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 2:16:58 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

                I have been of the opinion that this engine I bought was an MDC 2-8-0  ( everything matches ) but I wanted to see why the seller said Kemtron. That is why I asked was there a Kemtron 0-8-0.
               
                                                       Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:17 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

              No such animal to my knowledge.

              Howard Garner


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15361 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Look closely at the second picture (One showing closeup of the smokestack damage). You can see what appears to be 'MDC' on the boiler plate under the smokestack, though it is partially obscured by the handrail.

              Drawbar is probably not original, as it seems quite long. Kemtron does make drawbars, and I have some on some of my locomotives.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Tue, 10/19/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Kemtron 0-8-0
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 11:24 AM

               

               

                       I won item 220681924838   Lot 56 Kemtron 0-8-0 Steam Engine. It is listed as HO but in one place HOn3.
               
                   I know Kemtron made a lot of parts including a drive and up grade for the Varney Aero Train but I don't know much about complete engines. I do know they made some tenders, some HOn3 and some TT stuff. From HOseeker I knew about their HOn3  2-8-0 " Montezuma" but this is not the same engine
               
                  It might be listed wrong not even be Kemtron and even be plastic. Could even had been a 2-8-0 since there is room for a leading truck.
               
                  Since the item I won was not going to high,  might be Kemtron and possibly brass I gave it a shot but have been unable to find it listed anywhere. Just thought it might be interesting. If not an addition for the collection I will repair and resell. For what I paid it was cheap.
               
                  I admit Kemtron is not one of the vintage items I seek out for my collection or know much about. I bought it as a whim. When it arrives I will know for sure.
               
                                                                  Jim H
               
                 
               
                                                             
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15362 From: earlyrail Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              I went back and looked again. This is definitely a MDC locomotive.
              The cast plastic boiler, the bare brass wheel drivers, the tender shape all SCREAM MDC old timer to me.

              Howard Garner

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Neubaum <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote:
              >
              > Look closely at the second picture (One showing closeup of the smokestack damage). You can see what appears to be 'MDC' on the boiler plate under the smokestack, though it is partially obscured by the handrail.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15363 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              No--that was an 0-6-0T.  Had a lot of C-16 parts.  gj

              Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 3:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

              Hi Jim,
               
              Yes there was a Kemtron HOn3 0-8-0, it was a small tank engine and was based on the C-16 frame, it was also a brass kit, just like the old Kemtron C-16's, which were nice engines if one could get them put together, PSC carried the parts for a number of years after Kemtron went the way of the dinosaurs....
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 2:16:58 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

                I have been of the opinion that this engine I bought was an MDC 2-8-0  ( everything matches ) but I wanted to see why the seller said Kemtron. That is why I asked was there a Kemtron 0-8-0.
               
                                                       Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:17 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

              No such animal to my knowledge.

              Howard Garner


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15364 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/19/2010
              Subject: Bit the parts bullet
              Finally ordered all the Athearn stuff for the units needing parts (blue-box mostly), then Varney stuff to rebuild the three remaining metal 50's Varney boxcars (2 done tonight...almost), and all the stuff to finish off 3 Silver Streak boxes....2 UP 40' box, one Southern 40' auto-box, one is ready to put the sides on already.
              How can people build something ALMOST done, put them away, and LOSE the doors and door guides?
              Painted the roof, ends, undercarriage, put on end ladders and brake wheel/platform (that was in the box),the autobox has couplers, paint, trucks (also in the box), sides are painted on the edges (I HATE that thin line of unpainted wood....)so tomorrow I glue the sides and upper door guides on, paint doors and side ladders (autobox has ladders, regular box have grab rungs), and put more stuff on the other two boxcars, one of which is ready for paint now.

              You know what will drive me crazy...(well, lots of things), is buy a sealed bag of handrails (kit) for an old Athearn SW7, find 3 extra stanchions, one extra door rail, and missing the LR corner piece.

              ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.

              Since I brought up crazy, why is it nobody ever seemed to de-flash stuff?
              I spend more time, no matter what I get, Varney, Mantua, Athearn, PennLine, even my old English Yardbird from my uncle, cleaning flash and repainting.

              Freight car trucks are the worst.

              I always look at trucks, and seeing big sprues on top, flash hanging out, and even the holes in the sides of the truck blocked with flash.

              I think I'm wearing my files out.

              But, the "to-do" boxes are getting emptied.....and finished stock can go back in them.

              Dave

              (oh......this Athearn SW7.....no flywheels, 1/8" motor shaft (not 3/32), takes a 4-prong coupler on the motor shafts....both were split.
              41019 is the number on the HOSeeker pages, but NOW that number crosses to an SW7 dummy truck.....so, looks like it's a 41034.....except that's for the 3/32 shaft....pin vise and sequential drill bits, then a vise to squeeze them on........)
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15365 From: Gary Woodard Date: 10/20/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Hi Glenn,
               
              Yep, your right!
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: "glenn476@..." <glenn476@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 8:23:34 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

              No--that was an 0-6-0T.  Had a lot of C-16 parts.  gj

              Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 3:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

              Hi Jim,
               
              Yes there was a Kemtron HOn3 0-8-0, it was a small tank engine and was based on the C-16 frame, it was also a brass kit, just like the old Kemtron C-16's, which were nice engines if one could get them put together, PSC carried the parts for a number of years after Kemtron went the way of the dinosaurs....
               
              Gary W
               

               
              Click HERE http://www.eeinternational.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=31469 to answer life's two most important questions!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 2:16:58 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

                I have been of the opinion that this engine I bought was an MDC 2-8-0  ( everything matches ) but I wanted to see why the seller said Kemtron. That is why I asked was there a Kemtron 0-8-0.
               
                                                       Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:17 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

              No such animal to my knowledge.

              Howard Garner



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15366 From: Matthew Date: 10/20/2010
              Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Jim,

              Sadly, it does look like you got an MDC 2-8-0 without a pilot truck. However, I just did some research and in the mid-50s International brought in a 4-4-0 and 2-8-0 in HO in their "old time" series I have two of the 4-4-0s. They were all brass and the 4-4-0s ran very poorly. Kemtron purchased the few remaining 2-8-0s and sold them in their catalog from 1958 or 59.

              I was hoping you had purchased one of them!

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have been of the opinion that this engine I bought was an MDC 2-8-0 ( everything matches ) but I wanted to see why the seller said Kemtron. That is why I asked was there a Kemtron 0-8-0.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Howard R Garner
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:17 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0
              >
              >
              >
              > No such animal to my knowledge.
              >
              > Howard Garner
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15367 From: jim heckard Date: 10/20/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
               
              Matt,
               
                     Yes I'm sure it is MDC. It really was a last minute purchase where I really didn't check it out real good and read Kemtron. Saw item seemed to be going cheap and bid.( Buyer beware you know.) While my collection spans items made from 1936-1977 and many vintage HO companies Kemtron was not one of them.  I always thought of them as a parts company. A little research now has filled in some blanks. I will be watching to get the 2-8-0 Montezuma if I get the chance.
               
                  While some people might get upset I don't feel MDC / Roundhouse is in my collection because I only consider the first run of 0-6-0 with slope back tender as a vintage collectable. While I have their parts manuals I never got deep into them. ( This is my opinion only.)
               
                  When this MDC engine gets here I will strip it. Fix the broken stack, replace the missing pilot truck, add the missing stanchion holders to repair the handrail and fix anything else I might find. Maybe give it a "fancy" paint job and resell it.  If I get my $ 25 back I'll be happy.
               
                                                                                        Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Matthew
              Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:05 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

              Jim,

              Sadly, it does look like you got an MDC 2-8-0 without a pilot truck. However, I just did some research and in the mid-50s International brought in a 4-4-0 and 2-8-0 in HO in their "old time" series I have two of the 4-4-0s. They were all brass and the 4-4-0s ran very poorly. Kemtron purchased the few remaining 2-8-0s and sold them in their catalog from 1958 or 59.

              I was hoping you had purchased one of them!

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have been of the opinion that this engine I bought was an MDC 2-8-0 ( everything matches ) but I wanted to see why the seller said Kemtron. That is why I asked was there a Kemtron 0-8-0.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Howard R Garner
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:17 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0
              >
              >
              >
              > No such animal to my knowledge.
              >
              > Howard Garner
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15368 From: jim heckard Date: 10/20/2010
              Subject: one small step forward
              Attachments :
               
               
                             Able to complete one more small step forward by getting the 4 piece cab assembled and attached on my Conover 2-10-2.  Boiler / Cab just sitting on frame for picture.
               
                                                              Jim
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15369 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/20/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              The MDC 0-6-0 was one of the few HO locomotives to return after WWII--and it went thru several changes.  They also had  an extensive line of die-cast cars. There were at least two variations on the 0-6-0  (tank engine and narrow gauge) and two  Santa Fe locos (4-4-2 and 2-6-2) in the die cast era.  gj

              Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 5:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               
              Matt,
               
                     Yes I'm sure it is MDC. It really was a last minute purchase where I really didn't check it out real good and read Kemtron. Saw item seemed to be going cheap and bid.( Buyer beware you know.) While my collection spans items made from 1936-1977 and many vintage HO companies Kemtron was not one of them.  I always thought of them as a parts company. A little research now has filled in some blanks. I will be watching to get the 2-8-0 Montezuma if I get the chance.
               
                  While some people might get upset I don't feel MDC / Roundhouse is in my collection because I only consider the first run of 0-6-0 with slope back tender as a vintage collectable. While I have their parts manuals I never got deep into them. ( This is my opinion only.)
               
                  When this MDC engine gets here I will strip it. Fix the broken stack, replace the missing pilot truck, add the missing stanchion holders to repair the handrail and fix anything else I might find. Maybe give it a "fancy" paint job and resell it.  If I get my $ 25 back I'll be happy.
               
                                                                                        Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Matthew
              Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:05 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

              Jim,

              Sadly, it does look like you got an MDC 2-8-0 without a pilot truck. However, I just did some research and in the mid-50s International brought in a 4-4-0 and 2-8-0 in HO in their "old time" series I have two of the 4-4-0s. They were all brass and the 4-4-0s ran very poorly. Kemtron purchased the few remaining 2-8-0s and sold them in their catalog from 1958 or 59.

              I was hoping you had purchased one of them!

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have been of the opinion that this engine I bought was an MDC 2-8-0 ( everything matches ) but I wanted to see why the seller said Kemtron. That is why I asked was there a Kemtron 0-8-0.
              >
              > Jim H
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Howard R Garner
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:17 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0
              >
              >
              >
              > No such animal to my knowledge.
              >
              > Howard Garner
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15370 From: Matthew Date: 10/21/2010
              Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Jim,

              Being something of an avid Kemtron collector (at least of narrow gauge items) I have several of their kits. The Montezuma came in a couple of varieties but the best ones are the oldest, with the solid turned brass boiler and the brass-rimmed drivers and wheels with the very coarse treads. I have two of those and am amazed at what you had to do with a kit in 1948 to get a locomotive to run.

              I have a non-running older all-metal MDC 0-6-0 (non-running condition) that I suppose is collectible, but seems ordinary enough that I never thought anything of it.

              Good luck on the 2-10-2! I enjoyed the photos of your work on it.

              Matt Coleman

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Matt,
              >
              > Yes I'm sure it is MDC. It really was a last minute purchase where I really didn't check it out real good and read Kemtron. Saw item seemed to be going cheap and bid.( Buyer beware you know.) While my collection spans items made from 1936-1977 and many vintage HO companies Kemtron was not one of them. I always thought of them as a parts company. A little research now has filled in some blanks. I will be watching to get the 2-8-0 Montezuma if I get the chance.
              >
              > While some people might get upset I don't feel MDC / Roundhouse is in my collection because I only consider the first run of 0-6-0 with slope back tender as a vintage collectable. While I have their parts manuals I never got deep into them. ( This is my opinion only.)
              >
              > When this MDC engine gets here I will strip it. Fix the broken stack, replace the missing pilot truck, add the missing stanchion holders to repair the handrail and fix anything else I might find. Maybe give it a "fancy" paint job and resell it. If I get my $ 25 back I'll be happy.
              >
              > Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15371 From: jim heckard Date: 10/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Matt,
               
                     You mention something about that Kemtron 2-8-0 Montezuma being a hard kit to build and run which is something I didn't know since I don't have one.  I'll be prepared if I don't find one already to run.
               
                  Glad you like the Conover 2-10-2 being built. For me up till this I always thought that the Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny was the hardest engine I ever had to assemble and get running. It was made a little harder as I had to copy and hand make some of the missing valve gear parts that were made of sheet brass.
               
                   Now I have to wonder which is harder. This project is made much harder because of having to " clean " up the pieces before I can move on. Along with having a couple of the parts missing, mainly the drive and valve gear adds to it. Still if I can persevere I will have another really nice piece to add to my vintage collection.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Matthew
              Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 1:02 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

               

              Jim,

              Being something of an avid Kemtron collector (at least of narrow gauge items) I have several of their kits. The Montezuma came in a couple of varieties but the best ones are the oldest, with the solid turned brass boiler and the brass-rimmed drivers and wheels with the very coarse treads. I have two of those and am amazed at what you had to do with a kit in 1948 to get a locomotive to run.

              I have a non-running older all-metal MDC 0-6-0 (non-running condition) that I suppose is collectible, but seems ordinary enough that I never thought anything of it.

              Good luck on the 2-10-2! I enjoyed the photos of your work on it.

              Matt Coleman

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Matt,
              >
              > Yes I'm sure it is MDC. It really was a last minute purchase where I really didn't check it out real good and read Kemtron. Saw item seemed to be going cheap and bid.( Buyer beware you know.) While my collection spans items made from 1936-1977 and many vintage HO companies Kemtron was not one of them. I always thought of them as a parts company. A little research now has filled in some blanks. I will be watching to get the 2-8-0 Montezuma if I get the chance.
              >
              > While some people might get upset I don't feel MDC / Roundhouse is in my collection because I only consider the first run of 0-6-0 with slope back tender as a vintage collectable. While I have their parts manuals I never got deep into them. ( This is my opinion only.)
              >
              > When this MDC engine gets here I will strip it. Fix the broken stack, replace the missing pilot truck, add the missing stanchion holders to repair the handrail and fix anything else I might find. Maybe give it a "fancy" paint job and resell it. If I get my $ 25 back I'll be happy.
              >
              > Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15372 From: Richard White Date: 10/21/2010
              Subject: Re: one small step forward [1 Attachment]
              Jim-  This is looking better all the time! Beautiful! Regards- Richard White
               

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: jimheck@...
              Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:44:59 -0400
              Subject: [vintageHO] one small step forward [1 Attachment]

               
              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
               
               
                             Able to complete one more small step forward by getting the 4 piece cab assembled and attached on my Conover 2-10-2.  Boiler / Cab just sitting on frame for picture.
               
                                                              Jim


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15373 From: Matthew Date: 10/22/2010
              Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Jim,

              The early version of the Kemtron Montezuma (as opposed to the later Early Version of the C-16 kit which was a superb kit to build and run) was very crude. The boiler was a solid brass turning that required a great deal of effort to attach domes, stacks, and details - you had to drill a hole in the brass for every part. And the solid boiler sucks heat away from a soldering iron faster than cold water!

              The frame was a rather crude bronze casting, but came pre-machined by the factory. Oddly enough, if you got it built, it ran very well (with a good motor) because of the weight of the boiler.

              I would put it at a similar difficulty to your Conyers 2-10-2.

              Your work on building up old kits has inspired me to do some repair work on the crippled "science projects" that have come in from eBay.

              I really appreciate this group! Thanks to you and all the guys who post so regularly.

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Matt,
              >
              > You mention something about that Kemtron 2-8-0 Montezuma being a hard kit to build and run which is something I didn't know since I don't have one. I'll be prepared if I don't find one already to run.
              >
              > Glad you like the Conover 2-10-2 being built. For me up till this I always thought that the Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny was the hardest engine I ever had to assemble and get running. It was made a little harder as I had to copy and hand make some of the missing valve gear parts that were made of sheet brass.
              >
              > Now I have to wonder which is harder. This project is made much harder because of having to " clean " up the pieces before I can move on. Along with having a couple of the parts missing, mainly the drive and valve gear adds to it. Still if I can persevere I will have another really nice piece to add to my vintage collection.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Matthew
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 1:02 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15374 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 10/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Interesting--I had one HOn3 2-8-0 that was partially built--a guy in
              Australia "borrowed" it to use in tooling a production model--haven't
              seen it since--but as I remember it had a n etched sheet brass boiler--the
              frame was lost-wax brass. I have bult at least 8 of the On3 versions--what
              makes them a bit tricky is assembling the frames square. gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Matthew" <mattjcoleman@...>
              Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 11:33 AM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0

              > Jim,
              >
              > The early version of the Kemtron Montezuma (as opposed to the later Early
              > Version of the C-16 kit which was a superb kit to build and run) was very
              > crude. The boiler was a solid brass turning that required a great deal of
              > effort to attach domes, stacks, and details - you had to drill a hole in
              > the brass for every part. And the solid boiler sucks heat away from a
              > soldering iron faster than cold water!
              >
              > The frame was a rather crude bronze casting, but came pre-machined by the
              > factory. Oddly enough, if you got it built, it ran very well (with a good
              > motor) because of the weight of the boiler.
              >
              > I would put it at a similar difficulty to your Conyers 2-10-2.
              >
              > Your work on building up old kits has inspired me to do some repair work
              > on the crippled "science projects" that have come in from eBay.
              >
              > I really appreciate this group! Thanks to you and all the guys who post so
              > regularly.
              >
              > Matt
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Matt,
              >>
              >> You mention something about that Kemtron 2-8-0 Montezuma being a
              >> hard kit to build and run which is something I didn't know since I don't
              >> have one. I'll be prepared if I don't find one already to run.
              >>
              >> Glad you like the Conover 2-10-2 being built. For me up till this I
              >> always thought that the Winton 2-6-6-6 Allegheny was the hardest engine I
              >> ever had to assemble and get running. It was made a little harder as I
              >> had to copy and hand make some of the missing valve gear parts that were
              >> made of sheet brass.
              >>
              >> Now I have to wonder which is harder. This project is made much
              >> harder because of having to " clean " up the pieces before I can move on.
              >> Along with having a couple of the parts missing, mainly the drive and
              >> valve gear adds to it. Still if I can persevere I will have another
              >> really nice piece to add to my vintage collection.
              >>
              >> Jim H
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: Matthew
              >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 1:02 PM
              >> Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Kemtron 0-8-0
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15375 From: Matthew Date: 10/23/2010
              Subject: Kemtron 0-8-0
              Glenn,

              What you had was the later, much-improved version of the kit with the etched boiler and some pretty nice detail parts. It came in three versions -- original (1882), intermediate (1895), and modern (1923). The original Montezuma kit was a model of the original version of the loco with the diamond stack.

              I too was involved in the Australian plastic C-16 project. I ended up with one of the locos, but had to buy it, even though I had made deposits on other locos that never were made.

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <glenn476@...> wrote:
              >
              > Interesting--I had one HOn3 2-8-0 that was partially built--a guy in
              > Australia "borrowed" it to use in tooling a production model--haven't
              > seen it since--but as I remember it had a n etched sheet brass boiler--the
              > frame was lost-wax brass. I have bult at least 8 of the On3 versions--what
              > makes them a bit tricky is assembling the frames square. gj
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15376 From: scrimjimmy Date: 10/23/2010
              Subject: Help needed Identifing Vintage CNW Pacific Steam Loco
              Hello,

              I have uploaded some pictures in the photos section of a unknown Pacific steam
              loco I have acquired. The loco and tender appear to be brass, but looks to be
              not as detailed as most Brass is. Unfortunately part of the pilot is broken off
              and the Eccentric Crank & Eccentric Rod is missing on the one side. Is this
              possibly by New One? I look forward to a reply. I could find no markings on it.
              I even looked inside the Boiler Shell and no markings could be found.

              Jim Bartelt
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15377 From: jim heckard Date: 10/23/2010
              Subject: Winton Information
               
               
               
                  I came across some Winton  / Winton F Brown.information that you might find interesting. Maybe some know it already but I never did.  It concerns the Berkshire frame, drivers, valve gear and special cylinder / steam chest that Winton planned to use to convert to a 4-8-4 Live Steam HO engine.
               
                 This came to my attention when Larry Stevenson / HOseeker sent me a message a man from Germany sent asking about a Winton frame that was being sold on eBay that was converted for live steam. I found another friend in California that supplied me with the information and a full set of plans for the proposed engine.
               
                  The plans ( entitled  Winton HO live steamer 4-8-4 ) and story appeared in a 1955 book entitled "Advanced Model Railroading " by Louis Hertz. While this entire kit was probably never completed after Mr. Winton Brown stopped his HO productions the plans are full scale. with write up about HO Gauge Live Steamers .Without writing the whole story this is part. "  The 4-8-4 type, selected by Winton F. Brown for his HO Gauge steamer, the drawings of which are interspersed throughout this chapter, appears to be a logical starting point. A 4-8-4 permits of maximum length and boiler dimension, without appearing to much out of scale and at the same time the 4 wheeled truck allows for a longer and wider firebox area. ". Since the frame, drivers and special cylinder /steam chest were sold on eBay made by Winton the projected engine got at least that far.
               
                  While our group is not live steam this proposed HO engine by Winton might be found to be interesting. I have the entire article and plans of 10 pages but have no scanner. I can take digital photos if anyone interested.
               
                                                                   Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15378 From: Don Dellmann Date: 10/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Help needed Identifing Vintage CNW Pacific Steam Loco
              Attachments :
              M.B. Austin imported a "generic" 4-6-2 ca. 1958 or so. Unfortunately the
              only picture I have is very small. (Scan is from MR, December 1958 issue).

              I see the cab windows are different, some details, and the tender trucks but
              that could have been changed over the years.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "scrimjimmy" <jimbartelt@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 11:18 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Help needed Identifing Vintage CNW Pacific Steam Loco


              > Hello,
              >
              > I have uploaded some pictures in the photos section of a unknown Pacific
              > steam
              > loco I have acquired. The loco and tender appear to be brass, but looks to
              > be
              > not as detailed as most Brass is. Unfortunately part of the pilot is
              > broken off
              > and the Eccentric Crank & Eccentric Rod is missing on the one side. Is
              > this
              > possibly by New One? I look forward to a reply. I could find no markings
              > on it.
              > I even looked inside the Boiler Shell and no markings could be found.
              >
              > Jim Bartelt
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15379 From: jim heckard Date: 10/23/2010
              Subject: Unknown Pacific ?
               

              Jim B,
               
                These pictures came out of a 1959 Blue Book of Hobbies catalog and show a brass 4-6-2  Pacific sold under the Aristo-Craft name ( Nathan Polk trademark ). The pictures are very small and don't show up very good taken from the page. Enlarging them along with the lighting isn't the best. 
               
                To me the pictures and your engine look similar although not lettered for the CNW.  You will have to judge if it might be the same engine.
               
                While Polk sold items made by New One this engine doesn't say it is. Only Aristo-Craft "Meticulous Model" series.
               
                                                                 Jim H
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15380 From: jim heckard Date: 10/23/2010
              Subject: Unknown Pacific
              Attachments :
               

               
               
                 This might be a little better picture of the Aristo-Craft Pacific. This was taken from page 25 Volume I of Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon. It is listed as B&O P-7 made in 1958.  Glossy pages make it hard to photograph.
               
                                                      Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15381 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/23/2010
              Subject: Those Pacific photos

              Hi Jim,

              I was able to darken these photos some.  Hope you do not mind.

              Take care,

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               

                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15382 From: James Bartelt Date: 10/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]
              Chuck & Jim,

              Thanks for the info. This group is a great wealth of Knowledge.
               

              James Bartelt
              jimbartelt@...


              METRO RR Club
              http://www.metrorrclub.org


              METRO RR CLUB SPRING SHOW 2011
              http://members.trainorders.com/scrimjimmy/spring.html

               




              From: Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...>
              To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sat, October 23, 2010 9:34:38 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]

               

              Hi Jim,

              I was able to darken these photos some.  Hope you do not mind.

              Take care,

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15383 From: jim heckard Date: 10/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]
              Chuck,
               
               No I don't mind. I appreciate that you did it. I don't like taking small photos out of books especially glossy pages.
               
                                            Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:34 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]

               

              Hi Jim,

              I was able to darken these photos some.  Hope you do not mind.

              Take care,

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15384 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Those Pacific photos

              Jim and some others, I have just uploaded my first video.  It is of a model train crossing over the double deck gate I just got wired up.  It looks pretty bad to me and I am going to try again.  I would like to know how it looks to you.  It should come up on the link below.

               

              After the first few of you tell me the bad points, that can be enough.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 8:28 AM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

               

              Chuck,

               

               No I don't mind. I appreciate that you did it. I don't like taking small photos out of books especially glossy pages.

               

                                            Jim H

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: Chuck Higdon

              To: vintageHO

              Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:34 PM

              Subject: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]

               

               

              Hi Jim,

              I was able to darken these photos some.  Hope you do not mind.

              Take care,

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15385 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 10/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Those Pacific photos
              This link:   http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3029070870045073759ULtGkM   takes you straight to it so you don't have to hunt for it from what seems like a home page of various unrelated topics.
               
              Resolution looks rather low.  This limitation is amplified by the small screen size of the train in such a wide shot.
               
              There is about five seconds of no train before it appears and 10 seconds of not train after it disappears.  While a little acclimation time for the viewer at each end is good to prevent things from being to jarring, that's a lot unless some dramatic pause effect is desired.  But the 10 seconds at the end leaves you waiting for it to reappear, perhaps on the helix - but the video then just ends.
               
              With the train disappearing from sight for so long on the bridge, it seems to lose interest.  Perhaps it might be possible to squeeze into the corner on the other side and shoot something.
               
              It's a nice wide shot, if that's what you want.    But consider trying some different angles such as having the camera more to one side, or perhaps a little lower if the layout facia won't obstruct too much.  Or perhaps from up against the left or right wall to be as different from a straight side on shot of the bridge as possible. 
               
              Finally, it would rise to a whole different level of excitement if the gate had been open as the train tried to cross.  (Good thing I'm not really a movie critic.)
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 9:11 AM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

              Jim and some others, I have just uploaded my first video.  It is of a model train crossing over the double deck gate I just got wired up.  It looks pretty bad to me and I am going to try again.  I would like to know how it looks to you.  It should come up on the link below.

              After the first few of you tell me the bad points, that can be enough.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 8:28 AM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

              Chuck,

               No I don't mind. I appreciate that you did it. I don't like taking small photos out of books especially glossy pages.

                                            Jim H

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: Chuck Higdon

              To: vintageHO

              Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:34 PM

              Subject: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]

               

              Hi Jim,

              I was able to darken these photos some.  Hope you do not mind.

              Take care,

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15386 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Gate video

              Ok, first I have changed the email subject line, sorry about that.  I think the low light must be why it is not too detailed and blurry.  Thanks for the input.

                Will try again later today or tomorrow.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ckinzer@...
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 12:38 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

               

              This link:   http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3029070870045073759ULtGkM   takes you straight to it so you don't have to hunt for it from what seems like a home page of various unrelated topics.

               

              Resolution looks rather low.  This limitation is amplified by the small screen size of the train in such a wide shot.

               

              There is about five seconds of no train before it appears and 10 seconds of not train after it disappears.  While a little acclimation time for the viewer at each end is good to prevent things from being to jarring, that's a lot unless some dramatic pause effect is desired.  But the 10 seconds at the end leaves you waiting for it to reappear, perhaps on the helix - but the video then just ends.

               

              With the train disappearing from sight for so long on the bridge, it seems to lose interest.  Perhaps it might be possible to squeeze into the corner on the other side and shoot something.

               

              It's a nice wide shot, if that's what you want.    But consider trying some different angles such as having the camera more to one side, or perhaps a little lower if the layout facia won't obstruct too much.  Or perhaps from up against the left or right wall to be as different from a straight side on shot of the bridge as possible. 

               

              Finally, it would rise to a whole different level of excitement if the gate had been open as the train tried to cross.  (Good thing I'm not really a movie critic.)

               

              Chuck Kinzer

               

               

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: Chuck Higdon

              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 9:11 AM

              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

               

              Jim and some others, I have just uploaded my first video.  It is of a model train crossing over the double deck gate I just got wired up.  It looks pretty bad to me and I am going to try again.  I would like to know how it looks to you.  It should come up on the link below.

              After the first few of you tell me the bad points, that can be enough.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 8:28 AM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

              Chuck,

               No I don't mind. I appreciate that you did it. I don't like taking small photos out of books especially glossy pages.

                                            Jim H

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: Chuck Higdon

              To: vintageHO

              Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:34 PM

              Subject: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]

               

              Hi Jim,

              I was able to darken these photos some.  Hope you do not mind.

              Take care,

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15387 From: jim heckard Date: 10/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Gate video
              Hi Chuck,
               
                 It is short and blurry but remember it's only the first attempt. I still have trouble using my digital camera after 2 years especially trying to get the right lighting in certain situations. You know what they say " Practice makes perfect "
               
                 Now lets talk about the positives. Having watched you progress with your track I have watched that helix to the right develop and it is now working. It had problems the first time too. But you corrected that. As for the bridge. If you have raised/ lowered or swung it in and out to get through and the train ran the first time with no problem in alignment or electrical difficulties is already a big plus.
               
                                                                          Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 12:47 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Gate video

               

              Ok, first I have changed the email subject line, sorry about that.  I think the low light must be why it is not too detailed and blurry.  Thanks for the input.

                Will try again later today or tomorrow.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ckinzer@...
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 12:38 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

              This link:   http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3029070870045073759ULtGkM   takes you straight to it so you don't have to hunt for it from what seems like a home page of various unrelated topics.

              Resolution looks rather low.  This limitation is amplified by the small screen size of the train in such a wide shot.

              There is about five seconds of no train before it appears and 10 seconds of not train after it disappears.  While a little acclimation time for the viewer at each end is good to prevent things from being to jarring, that's a lot unless some dramatic pause effect is desired.  But the 10 seconds at the end leaves you waiting for it to reappear, perhaps on the helix - but the video then just ends.

              With the train disappearing from sight for so long on the bridge, it seems to lose interest.  Perhaps it might be possible to squeeze into the corner on the other side and shoot something.

              It's a nice wide shot, if that's what you want.    But consider trying some different angles such as having the camera more to one side, or perhaps a little lower if the layout facia won't obstruct too much.  Or perhaps from up against the left or right wall to be as different from a straight side on shot of the bridge as possible. 

              Finally, it would rise to a whole different level of excitement if the gate had been open as the train tried to cross.  (Good thing I'm not really a movie critic.)

              Chuck Kinzer

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: Chuck Higdon

              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 9:11 AM

              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

              Jim and some others, I have just uploaded my first video.  It is of a model train crossing over the double deck gate I just got wired up.  It looks pretty bad to me and I am going to try again.  I would like to know how it looks to you.  It should come up on the link below.

              After the first few of you tell me the bad points, that can be enough.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 8:28 AM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

              Chuck,

               No I don't mind. I appreciate that you did it. I don't like taking small photos out of books especially glossy pages.

                                            Jim H

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: Chuck Higdon

              To: vintageHO

              Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:34 PM

              Subject: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]

               

              Hi Jim,

              I was able to darken these photos some.  Hope you do not mind.

              Take care,

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15388 From: Richard White Date: 10/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]
              Looks like an Akane to me. - Richard White 

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: vze5crrw1@...
              Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 22:34:38 -0400
              Subject: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]

               
              [Attachment(s) from Chuck Higdon included below]

              Hi Jim,

              I was able to darken these photos some.  Hope you do not mind.

              Take care,

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15389 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 10/24/2010
              Subject: Couple of parts needed
              Well, 5 actually, all the same.

              I have just finished 13 old metal Varney boxcars and reefers, so they are up on their wheels, all the bits, except for 5 of the "snap-in" grab irons.
              You squeeze these to get them started in the holes, push, and they snap in place.

              These are the 50's vintage metal cars.

              Anybody got 5 in a junk drawer?

              Need a photo?
              Thanks.
              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15390 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Gate video

              HI Jim,

               

              The bridge swings on a piano hinge and latches with a door knob.  But with no play.  Had a big smile when I got that part done.  It could not have worked any better.

               

              Chuck offered some good comments.  I did wire the gate, so the trains do not run a few feet before it on both sides if it is open.

               

              Thanks and take care.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 2:56 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Gate video

               

               

              Hi Chuck,

               

                 It is short and blurry but remember it's only the first attempt. I still have trouble using my digital camera after 2 years especially trying to get the right lighting in certain situations. You know what they say " Practice makes perfect "

               

                 Now lets talk about the positives. Having watched you progress with your track I have watched that helix to the right develop and it is now working. It had problems the first time too. But you corrected that. As for the bridge. If you have raised/ lowered or swung it in and out to get through and the train ran the first time with no problem in alignment or electrical difficulties is already a big plus.

               

                                                                          Jim H

               

               

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: Chuck Higdon

              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 12:47 PM

              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Gate video

               

               

              Ok, first I have changed the email subject line, sorry about that.  I think the low light must be why it is not too detailed and blurry.  Thanks for the input.

                Will try again later today or tomorrow.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of ckinzer@...
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 12:38 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

              This link:   http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3029070870045073759ULtGkM   takes you straight to it so you don't have to hunt for it from what seems like a home page of various unrelated topics.

              Resolution looks rather low.  This limitation is amplified by the small screen size of the train in such a wide shot.

              There is about five seconds of no train before it appears and 10 seconds of not train after it disappears.  While a little acclimation time for the viewer at each end is good to prevent things from being to jarring, that's a lot unless some dramatic pause effect is desired.  But the 10 seconds at the end leaves you waiting for it to reappear, perhaps on the helix - but the video then just ends.

              With the train disappearing from sight for so long on the bridge, it seems to lose interest.  Perhaps it might be possible to squeeze into the corner on the other side and shoot something.

              It's a nice wide shot, if that's what you want.    But consider trying some different angles such as having the camera more to one side, or perhaps a little lower if the layout facia won't obstruct too much.  Or perhaps from up against the left or right wall to be as different from a straight side on shot of the bridge as possible. 

              Finally, it would rise to a whole different level of excitement if the gate had been open as the train tried to cross.  (Good thing I'm not really a movie critic.)

              Chuck Kinzer

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: Chuck Higdon

              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 9:11 AM

              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

              Jim and some others, I have just uploaded my first video.  It is of a model train crossing over the double deck gate I just got wired up.  It looks pretty bad to me and I am going to try again.  I would like to know how it looks to you.  It should come up on the link below.

              After the first few of you tell me the bad points, that can be enough.

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 8:28 AM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos

               

              Chuck,

               No I don't mind. I appreciate that you did it. I don't like taking small photos out of books especially glossy pages.

                                            Jim H

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: Chuck Higdon

              To: vintageHO

              Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:34 PM

              Subject: [vintageHO] Those Pacific photos [3 Attachments]

               

              Hi Jim,

              I was able to darken these photos some.  Hope you do not mind.

              Take care,

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15391 From: jim heckard Date: 10/25/2010
              Subject: Winton HO Live Steam Drawings
               
                      If anyone is interested these are the 6 drawings for the proposed Winton HO 4-8-4 Live Steam engine. I will send the 3 pages of text later.  I'm not sure as attachments how big you can get these to show up if you would want to copy. Some Winton parts for this engine ( complete  frame with drivers, valve gear and special cylinder / steam chest ) were just sold on eBay but it is unsure if the complete kit was ever offered
               
                                                                     Jim H
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15392 From: jim heckard Date: 10/25/2010
              Subject: Winton HO Live Steam
               
               
               
                  Here are the three pages of text concerning the Winton HO Live Steam and live steam construction in general.. Hope they are readable. These are the only pages I received but the entire book was entiltled   " Advanced Model Railroading " written by Louis Hertz and printed in 1955.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
                                                                    
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15393 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/25/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /V List Varney cars.xls
              Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
              Description : List of Varney cars

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Varney%20cars.xls

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

              Regards,

              chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15394 From: Ralph in SYR Date: 10/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Shipping cost (was eBay question about reserves)
              boss - i have lots of athern blue box items available at a reasonable cost - ralph in syr

              On 10/10/2010 12:49 PM, Alpvalsys@... wrote:
               

              In a message dated 10/9/2010 7:43 A.M. PDT, in vintageHO@yahoogroups, Steve W. wrote:
              I always figure the shipping as part of the purchase price.
              So do I and so does my inventory program because it has three lines available for "Additional costs"; I always make one of them "Shipping."  If I know the retail price of the item, the program will then tell me what percentage of retail I paid.  I have paid 150% (+/-) for a couple of items that are difficult to find now (can you say Athearn Blue Box?), even at train shows.
               
              Ralph B

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15395 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 10/29/2010
              Subject: converting Athearn switcher to 33" wheels
              Hi all,

              For my PE #1648 project, I need to convert an Athearn diesel switcher
              chassis to 33" wheels... any idea if there are appropriate parts
              available? I would consider to buy eight axles (PSC , NWSL or similar)
              with 2.4 mm diameter and cut them to length and use only the solid side.
              to have current collection over the Athearn axle holders again.

              Thanks Gerold
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15396 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 10/31/2010
              Subject: Re: Gate video

              Still blurry and now have static that was not before.  I think the subject clips are better presented, less dead view time.  But still problems.

               

              http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3029070870045073759ULtGkM

               

              Take care,

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104 _

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15397 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 10/31/2010
              Subject: Marx ? Flat car
              Just want to know what you gentleman can tell me about the pictures of the attached flat car?  
               
              Kent Hurley
              Kansas City, MO


              Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15398 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 10/31/2010
              Subject: REQUEST
              I am looking for a Varney HO Battleship Coal Gondola with six wheel trucks.  Does anyone have one they wish to sell?
              Don Staton in VA.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15399 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 10/31/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car [5 Attachments]
              Marx flat car, came with a variety of loads including cable reels and boat. Came in black, maroon and yellow. Die cast metal. More photos available on my web site at www.marx-trains.com
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: nvrr49@...
              Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:32 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Marx ? Flat car [5 Attachments]

               

              Just want to know what you gentleman can tell me about the pictures of the attached flat car?  
               
              Kent Hurley
              Kansas City, MO


              Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15400 From: estabrook@aol.com Date: 11/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              Kent - someone has covered the Marx variations - I would just add that Model Power still sells these with the two spools - I have one lettered for ATSF (BCR), as well as the Marx car (Erie in black).
              Reed



              -----Original Message-----
              From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
              To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sun, Oct 31, 2010 8:32 pm
              Subject: [vintageHO] Marx ? Flat car [5 Attachments]

               
              [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... included below]
              Just want to know what you gentleman can tell me about the pictures of the attached flat car?  
               
              Kent Hurley
              Kansas City, MO


              Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15401 From: al45390 Date: 11/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars
              Steve,

              I took a look at your website. Great job! Nice collection.

              The passenger cars on your website are remarkably similar [the body and underframe at least are similar] to Tenshodo's brass shorty corrugated sides passenger cars. Has anybody else noted this? The Marx trucks look like Blomberg diesel trucks, and the Tenshodo are more appropriate [similar to Athearn Passenger trucks], but still ...

              Walter


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
              >
              > Marx flat car, came with a variety of loads including cable reels and boat. Came in black, maroon and yellow. Die cast metal. More photos available on my web site at www.marx-trains.com
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: nvrr49@...
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:32 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Marx ? Flat car [5 Attachments]
              >
              >
              >
              > [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... included below]
              >
              >
              > Just want to know what you gentleman can tell me about the pictures of the attached flat car?
              >
              > Kent Hurley
              > Kansas City, MO
              >
              >
              >
              > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15402 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car [5 Attachments]
              Since I am missing one of the trucks, how do I get the other truck off? It looks like it is rivited in place?

              Kent in KC
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15403 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars
              I have photos comparing the two cars. It's one of the things I'm trying to figure out where to put them. I will probably post them with the notes section. I actually do mention in the notes section for the passenger cars that they are made by Tenshodo for Marx. I just need to post the comparison photos. The trucks on the passenger cars are the same ones used for the Marx F7's, GP7's, and tenders.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: al45390
              Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 11:39 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx Passenger Cars

               

              Steve,

              I took a look at your website. Great job! Nice collection.

              The passenger cars on your website are remarkably similar [the body and underframe at least are similar] to Tenshodo's brass shorty corrugated sides passenger cars. Has anybody else noted this? The Marx trucks look like Blomberg diesel trucks, and the Tenshodo are more appropriate [similar to Athearn Passenger trucks], but still ...

              Walter

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
              >
              > Marx flat car, came with a variety of loads including cable reels and boat. Came in black, maroon and yellow. Die cast metal. More photos available on my web site at www.marx-trains.com
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: nvrr49@...
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:32 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Marx ? Flat car [5 Attachments]
              >
              >
              >
              > [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... included below]
              >
              >
              > Just want to know what you gentleman can tell me about the pictures of the attached flat car?
              >
              > Kent Hurley
              > Kansas City, MO
              >
              >
              >
              > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15404 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              Carefully insert a flat head screw driver under one side of the truck and twist. The truck should pop off the "rivet". The coupler mount is a separate piece. I have photos on my Marx web site. I just tried to access the photos and they seem to be missing. I'm not sure if it's my computer or GoDaddy, but it's 2:00am so I'll look at the problem in the morning.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: nvrr49
              Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:35 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car

               

              Since I am missing one of the trucks, how do I get the other truck off? It looks like it is rivited in place?

              Kent in KC

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15405 From: al45390 Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!
              If Tenshodo supplied the passenger cars, or at least parts of them, to Marx, I wonder how the prices compared. I seem to recall that the Tenshodo cars were $$$ for their time. Did Tenshodo and Marx offer the passengers cars in the same years?

              Walter

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have photos comparing the two cars. It's one of the things I'm trying to figure out where to put them. I will probably post them with the notes section. I actually do mention in the notes section for the passenger cars that they are made by Tenshodo for Marx. I just need to post the comparison photos. The trucks on the passenger cars are the same ones used for the Marx F7's, GP7's, and tenders.
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: al45390
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 11:39 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx Passenger Cars
              >
              >
              >
              > Steve,
              >
              > I took a look at your website. Great job! Nice collection.
              >
              > The passenger cars on your website are remarkably similar [the body and underframe at least are similar] to Tenshodo's brass shorty corrugated sides passenger cars. Has anybody else noted this? The Marx trucks look like Blomberg diesel trucks, and the Tenshodo are more appropriate [similar to Athearn Passenger trucks], but still ...
              >
              > Walter
              >
              >
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:32 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Marx ? Flat car [5 Attachments]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@ included below]
              > >
              > >
              > > Just want to know what you
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15406 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              This piece has talgo trucks, so the couplers are attached to the trucks. I am probably going to drill out the rivet and tap and hole for a screw to install new trucks.

              Kent in KC.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
              >
              > Carefully insert a flat head screw driver under one side of the truck and twist. The truck should pop off the "rivet". The coupler mount is a separate piece. I have photos on my Marx web site. I just tried to access the photos and they seem to be missing. I'm not sure if it's my computer or GoDaddy, but it's 2:00am so I'll look at the problem in the morning.
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: nvrr49
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:35 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car
              >
              >
              >
              > Since I am missing one of the trucks, how do I get the other truck off? It looks like it is rivited in place?
              >
              > Kent in KC
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15407 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              On the one I had I cut the truck retainer snap off the rivet in the car and drilled and tapped the rivet.  The rivet was brass.  It worked great.
              Don Staton in VA.
              =================================

              On 11/2/2010 12:51 PM, nvrr49 wrote:
               

              This piece has talgo trucks, so the couplers are attached to the trucks. I am probably going to drill out the rivet and tap and hole for a screw to install new trucks.

              Kent in KC.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
              >
              > Carefully insert a flat head screw driver under one side of the truck and twist. The truck should pop off the "rivet". The coupler mount is a separate piece. I have photos on my Marx web site. I just tried to access the photos and they seem to be missing. I'm not sure if it's my computer or GoDaddy, but it's 2:00am so I'll look at the problem in the morning.
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: nvrr49
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:35 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car
              >
              >
              >
              > Since I am missing one of the trucks, how do I get the other truck off? It looks like it is rivited in place?
              >
              > Kent in KC
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15408 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              The "rivet" is press fitted into the car. They can be removed in one piece once the truck is removed. Sometimes the pin will come out with the truck, it depends on which has a stronger hold on the pin, the car or the coupler. But I repeat, the pin will come out in one piece!
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 1:54 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car

               

              On the one I had I cut the truck retainer snap off the rivet in the car and drilled and tapped the rivet.  The rivet was brass.  It worked great.
              Don Staton in VA.
              =================================

              On 11/2/2010 12:51 PM, nvrr49 wrote:

               

              This piece has talgo trucks, so the couplers are attached to the trucks. I am probably going to drill out the rivet and tap and hole for a screw to install new trucks.

              Kent in KC.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
              >
              > Carefully insert a flat head screw driver under one side of the truck and twist. The truck should pop off the "rivet". The coupler mount is a separate piece. I have photos on my Marx web site. I just tried to access the photos and they seem to be missing. I'm not sure if it's my computer or GoDaddy, but it's 2:00am so I'll look at the problem in the morning.
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: nvrr49
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:35 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car
              >
              >
              >
              > Since I am missing one of the trucks, how do I get the other truck off? It looks like it is rivited in place?
              >
              > Kent in KC
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15409 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              All you need to do is pop the truck off the pin. The coupler pad is not attached to the truck, it is a separate piece. There is no need to drill!!!
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: nvrr49
              Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 12:51 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car

               

              This piece has talgo trucks, so the couplers are attached to the trucks. I am probably going to drill out the rivet and tap and hole for a screw to install new trucks.

              Kent in KC.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
              >
              > Carefully insert a flat head screw driver under one side of the truck and twist. The truck should pop off the "rivet". The coupler mount is a separate piece. I have photos on my Marx web site. I just tried to access the photos and they seem to be missing. I'm not sure if it's my computer or GoDaddy, but it's 2:00am so I'll look at the problem in the morning.
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: nvrr49
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:35 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car
              >
              >
              >
              > Since I am missing one of the trucks, how do I get the other truck off? It looks like it is rivited in place?
              >
              > Kent in KC
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15410 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              Mine was a solid brass rivet that filled a hole that went all the way through the body of the car.  I did not remove the pin because it filled the hole well...  So I cut the truck retainer off and drilled the solid brass rivet.  Yours may not be like that.  Happy railroading...
              Don Staton in VA
              ==============================================================

              On 11/2/2010 2:32 PM, My-Yahoo-Groups wrote:
               

              The "rivet" is press fitted into the car. They can be removed in one piece once the truck is removed. Sometimes the pin will come out with the truck, it depends on which has a stronger hold on the pin, the car or the coupler. But I repeat, the pin will come out in one piece!
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 1:54 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car

               

              On the one I had I cut the truck retainer snap off the rivet in the car and drilled and tapped the rivet.  The rivet was brass.  It worked great.
              Don Staton in VA.
              =================================

              On 11/2/2010 12:51 PM, nvrr49 wrote:

               

              This piece has talgo trucks, so the couplers are attached to the trucks. I am probably going to drill out the rivet and tap and hole for a screw to install new trucks.

              Kent in KC.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@...> wrote:
              >
              > Carefully insert a flat head screw driver under one side of the truck and twist. The truck should pop off the "rivet". The coupler mount is a separate piece. I have photos on my Marx web site. I just tried to access the photos and they seem to be missing. I'm not sure if it's my computer or GoDaddy, but it's 2:00am so I'll look at the problem in the morning.
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: nvrr49
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:35 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car
              >
              >
              >
              > Since I am missing one of the trucks, how do I get the other truck off? It looks like it is rivited in place?
              >
              > Kent in KC
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15411 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Glue advice wanted.
              I have a slew of unbuilt and salvage Walthers metal and wood
              passenger passenger cars I want to build/rebuild.

              I haven't built one of them for a long time and I'm wondering what is
              a better modern glue to use for the metal to wood joints. I used Goo
              and original formula SuperGlue on the last one so very long
              ago.......... There must be better glues for the job today.

              Suggestions please??

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15412 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
              Goo is still the best in many instances. There are various improved super glues, and I prefer Loctite. Goo is good for holding stuff while you maneuver it around slightly to get it right, and then a touch of super holds it more rigidly. However, that is a simplistic answer as I use a variety of glues for different purposes.
               
              Art
               
              In a message dated 11/2/2010 9:21:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mwbauers55@... writes:
              I have a slew of unbuilt and salvage Walthers metal and wood  
              passenger passenger cars I want to build/rebuild.

              I haven't built one of them for a long time and I'm wondering what is 
              a better modern glue to use for the metal to wood joints. I used Goo 
              and original formula SuperGlue on the last one so very long 
              ago.......... There must be better glues for the job today.

              Suggestions please??

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi



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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15413 From: jodanjackkayla@yahoo.com Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
              Gorilla super glue is excellent as well. Holds much better that original crazy glue or super glue, much stronger. Goo is the other good choice as mentioned.
              Tom
              Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15414 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
              Goo is good for metal-to-wood joints such sd tinplate sides to wood floor--where you can heat-set it.  I have had it fail over tinme where heavy parts were gooed to bottoms of floors.  gj

              From: luvprr@...
              Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 6:26 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Glue advice wanted.

              Goo is still the best in many instances. There are various improved super glues, and I prefer Loctite. Goo is good for holding stuff while you maneuver it around slightly to get it right, and then a touch of super holds it more rigidly. However, that is a simplistic answer as I use a variety of glues for different purposes.
               
              Art
               
              In a message dated 11/2/2010 9:21:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mwbauers55@... writes:
              I have a slew of unbuilt and salvage Walthers metal and wood  
              passenger passenger cars I want to build/rebuild.

              I haven't built one of them for a long time and I'm wondering what is 
              a better modern glue to use for the metal to wood joints. I used Goo 
              and original formula SuperGlue on the last one so very long 
              ago.......... There must be better glues for the job today.

              Suggestions please??

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi



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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15415 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
              I've never been that happy with Goo [messy to work with, and it does fail in time, though I grant that it is a long time]. I used to prefer Pliobond, but nothing from the Walthers and JC metal sides to wood roof and floor era was 'forever'. Duco was fair, and so was Ambroid, but the joints quickly became brittle. Adding a mechanical connection, like a brad, was worthwhile IMHO. For wood to wood, carpenters glue and white glue worked best and lasted and lasted.

              Today I would try Gorrila, provided I could clamp things tightly. Gorilla needs to be clamped.

              On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:14 PM, <glenn476@...> wrote:
               

              Goo is good for metal-to-wood joints such sd tinplate sides to wood floor--where you can heat-set it.  I have had it fail over tinme where heavy parts were gooed to bottoms of floors.  gj

              From: luvprr@...
              Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 6:26 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Glue advice wanted.

              Goo is still the best in many instances. There are various improved super glues, and I prefer Loctite. Goo is good for holding stuff while you maneuver it around slightly to get it right, and then a touch of super holds it more rigidly. However, that is a simplistic answer as I use a variety of glues for different purposes.
               
              Art
               
              In a message dated 11/2/2010 9:21:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mwbauers55@... writes:
              I have a slew of unbuilt and salvage Walthers metal and wood  
              passenger passenger cars I want to build/rebuild.

              I haven't built one of them for a long time and I'm wondering what is 
              a better modern glue to use for the metal to wood joints. I used Goo 
              and original formula SuperGlue on the last one so very long 
              ago.......... There must be better glues for the job today.

              Suggestions please??

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi



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              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15416 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
              I've had best luck with regular contact cement.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <luvprr@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:26 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Glue advice wanted.


              > Goo is still the best in many instances. There are various improved super
              > glues, and I prefer Loctite. Goo is good for holding stuff while you
              > maneuver it around slightly to get it right, and then a touch of super
              > holds it
              > more rigidly. However, that is a simplistic answer as I use a variety of
              > glues for different purposes.
              >
              > Art
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 11/2/2010 9:21:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              > mwbauers55@... writes:
              >
              > I have a slew of unbuilt and salvage Walthers metal and wood
              > passenger passenger cars I want to build/rebuild.
              >
              > I haven't built one of them for a long time and I'm wondering what is
              > a better modern glue to use for the metal to wood joints. I used Goo
              > and original formula SuperGlue on the last one so very long
              > ago.......... There must be better glues for the job today.
              >
              > Suggestions please??
              >
              > Best to ya,
              > Mike Bauers
              > Milwaukee, Wi
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15417 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
              Contact cement is the best for these cars, and the best contact cement to use these days is venerable BARGE CEMENT (commonly available at Ace Hdwe. stores). It is a cement that has been around for decades, but until relatively recently only sold to and through the shoemaking/repairing trade. It is much slower -but not too much slower- to set up than GOO, is far less stringy, can be applied in tiny amounts, and when set up is incredibly tough and resilient. It can be used in either contact (10-15 minutes to full contact mode), or non-contact. Drilling a small hole, c. .060" at the tip of the crown of the cap makes it easy to apply tiny (tiny) amounts of glue. The hole can be plugged with an appropriately-sized T pin, or similar , (this same gambit will NOT work with GOO).

              ACC is a poor choice for wood/metal. It is too brittle and has very poor resistance to shear, and no matter how applied, ACC especially does not do a good job with wood that is likely to have to undergo any amount of structural stress (such as the stresses of mere handling).

              GOO, common with other contact cements, does not fail with time. I have a number of Walthers and other cars built with GOO and Pliobond from the fifties still as strong as when they were built. What can and does fail over time can be the glue joint itself, the message being that the substrate, wood or metal, was not prepared or cleaned properly prior to glue application- a must with any type of successful glue application.

              Denny



              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Sacramento
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15418 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              "The coupler pad is not attached to the truck, it is a separate piece.">
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com

              This car has Talgo trucks, so the coupler is attached to the truck and there is no separate coupler pad.

              Kent in KC
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15419 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              I do believe we have numerous iterations.
              I have one rivetted firmly through the floor.
              I have one with a slit down the middle of the truck bolster, with a white nylon button the bolster pieces flex out and snap over, with the Talgo couple pocket fitting through a slot in the endbeam (have to remove coupler to get truck out).

              > "The coupler pad is not attached to the truck, it is a separate piece.">
              > > Steve W.
              > > www.prrh.org
              > > www.marx-trains.com
              >
              > This car has Talgo trucks, so the coupler is attached to the truck and there is no separate coupler pad.
              >
              > Kent in KC
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15420 From: bbbogart56 Date: 11/3/2010
              Subject: Selling??
              I've not posted here before, and need to ask if it is proper to list some for sale items here? I have some old (and some very old) kits and pieces parts that would allow some kit completion etc. Please let me know as I would rather see these go to someone that would use and apprecitae them as to someone that just wants to pass them along at a markup. I came by them second hand and do not know alot about them. Thanks for any feedback!
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15421 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 11/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Selling??
              Generally not acceptable to sell items on here as such, but if you have some really old kits I'd appreciate taking a look to buy as I am building a collection of vintage kits from various defunct manufacturers to pass on to the future generation (interested grand kids) so they can appreciate craftsmanship of the times with such items. FYI I am about to start on a 1938 combination passenger car kit produced by the Railroad Shop of Dunellen, NJ.(Still in business). Only problem I have with some of these kits is dealing with the mildew odor. I am not interested in buildings at this time. Contact me at luvprr@....
               
              Art Waite
               
              In a message dated 11/3/2010 9:11:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bbbogart56@... writes:
              I've not posted here before, and need to ask if it is proper to list some for sale items here? I have some old (and some very old) kits and pieces parts that would allow some kit completion etc. Please let me know as I would rather see these go to someone that would use and apprecitae them as to someone that just wants to pass them along at a markup. I came by them second hand and do not know alot about them. Thanks for any feedback!



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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15422 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              It may look like it's one piece, but it's two pieces. The coupler pad has tabs that fit into grooves in the trucks. From the bottom it looks like one piece. When taken apart, it's two pieces. Actually three if you count the coupler.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: nvrr49
              Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 2:31 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car

               

              "The coupler pad is not attached to the truck, it is a separate piece.">
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com

              This car has Talgo trucks, so the coupler is attached to the truck and there is no separate coupler pad.

              Kent in KC

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15423 From: bbbogart56 Date: 11/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Selling??
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
              >
              > Generally not acceptable to sell items on here

              Thank you for setting me straight. I did not mean to barge in and make a commotion. My apologies you Vintage modellers!
              Bruce
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15424 From: My-Yahoo-Groups Date: 11/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              Could you post pictures of the car that is riveted?
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 2:38 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx ? Flat car

               


              I do believe we have numerous iterations.
              I have one rivetted firmly through the floor.
              I have one with a slit down the middle of the truck bolster, with a white nylon button the bolster pieces flex out and snap over, with the Talgo couple pocket fitting through a slot in the endbeam (have to remove coupler to get truck out).

              > "The coupler pad is not attached to the truck, it is a separate piece.">
              > > Steve W.
              > > www.prrh.org
              > > www.marx-trains.com
              >
              > This car has Talgo trucks, so the coupler is attached to the truck and there is no separate coupler pad.
              >
              > Kent in KC
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15425 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Selling??
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "bbbogart56" <bbbogart56@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:04 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Selling??


              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
              >>
              >> Generally not acceptable to sell items on here
              >
              > Thank you for setting me straight. I did not mean to barge in and make a
              > commotion. My apologies you Vintage modellers!
              > Bruce

              Actually "for sale" listings are NOT strictly forbidden. The general
              guidelines are:

              Any items MUST be what we consider "vintage HO", i.e. 1960's or older.
              Seller MUST be an amateur hobbyist, NOT a dealer or shop.
              If it's more than one or two items, advise people to contact you off list
              for the list, or put the list in the files section and alert people
              it's there. It is also permissible to put photos in an album if they
              follow the vintage guidelines.
              If you do put a list in the files, please remove when the items are sold.
              Conduct any actual transactions off list.
              Do NOT post for sale ads repeatedly, put it up once. If you still have
              items left a few months later, then you could post again.

              Following these guidelines, which I don't think are to onerous, keeps the
              list from turning into a massive rummage sale.

              Thanks

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15426 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx ? Flat car
              Sure. Soon as I dig it out again.
              Right now working on a big box of stuff spread all over, when I get that away and have a chance to sort, I'll get it.
              I thought one of these forums I did put up a shot, when I was asking about it a year or two ago.


              > Could you post pictures of the car that is riveted?
              >
              > Steve W.
              > www.prrh.org
              > www.marx-trains.com
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15427 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/4/2010
              Subject: Mystery salvage passenger cars
              I just got some interesting old-era model passenger cars from eBay.

              Perhaps someone can recognize the maker from a description ???

              They are shorty type, fluted metal streamliners that carry the
              remnants of a factory U.P. yellow/gray paint job with no lettering
              what so ever. They don't show any sign of a factory plating, so may
              have been painted only. They have a factory looking red striping as
              U.P had.

              They seem to be wrap-around body shells of deeply embossed sheet
              brass with upper letter boards and lower number boards as part of the
              stamping. The ends are plain, thin-wall castings with the only detail
              being the end door window void.

              Those car ends are locked into the body via low-round roof-vents that
              seem to have threaded screw-bases. The floors are wood planks with
              plain wood battery boxes and round stick tanks. There is a raised
              center sill that may or may not be a milled part of the floor. The
              floors are held in place by shallow-headed screws, one near each corner.

              One of the cars was supposed to be a dome car. It has a soldered-in
              dome section platform that seems to have been done by the factory. The
              body wraps have lower skirts including the end sections of the skirting.

              The cars were assembled complete with an Ayres-type of interior of
              milled wood streamline era seats, those may be added parts.

              I have four of these cars, a diner, a coach, a dome car, and a
              combine. The cars never got any trucks attached to them, the bolsters
              have no holes at all for any past mounting of trucks. The dome window
              top is missing

              My plan for the cars is to refinish them for a different road and make
              them into a Zephyr type of streamliner with a shovel-nosed end on the
              baggage end and some sort of observation end, [ likely to be a rounded
              end type of streamlined end with the potential to mate the train into
              a larger passenger train somewhat like the NYC Meteor Observation.].
              The Dome roof will be skinned over to become more of a conventional
              parlor/lounge car.

              I suspect these are 1950-era models that have never been operated on
              the rails.

              Do these sound familiar ???
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15428 From: Richard White Date: 11/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
              Hi Denny- I purchased a tube of Barge Cement yesterday. So this is good for wood to metal bonds. What do you recommend for metal to metal bonds? Cheers- Richard White
               

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: danspach@...
              Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:59:30 -0500
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Glue advice wanted.

               
              Contact cement is the best for these cars, and the best contact cement to use these days is venerable BARGE CEMENT (commonly available at Ace Hdwe. stores). It is a cement that has been around for decades, but until relatively recently only sold to and through the shoemaking/repairing trade. It is much slower -but not too much slower- to set up than GOO, is far less stringy, can be applied in tiny amounts, and when set up is incredibly tough and resilient. It can be used in either contact (10-15 minutes to full contact mode), or non-contact. Drilling a small hole, c. .060" at the tip of the crown of the cap makes it easy to apply tiny (tiny) amounts of glue. The hole can be plugged with an appropriately-sized T pin, or similar , (this same gambit will NOT work with GOO).

              ACC is a poor choice for wood/metal. It is too brittle and has very poor resistance to shear, and no matter how applied, ACC especially does not do a good job with wood that is likely to have to undergo any amount of structural stress (such as the stresses of mere handling).

              GOO, common with other contact cements, does not fail with time. I have a number of Walthers and other cars built with GOO and Pliobond from the fifties still as strong as when they were built. What can and does fail over time can be the glue joint itself, the message being that the substrate, wood or metal, was not prepared or cleaned properly prior to glue application- a must with any type of successful glue application.

              Denny

              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Sacramento


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15429 From: Jim Waterman Date: 11/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
              Denny
               
              For metal joining, I'd recommend cyanoacrylate (super glue) for close fitting metal to metal - make sure it's all clean, You can use the 'Zap-a-Gap version for parts that don't quite fit, or 5 minute epoxy - comes in a pack with 2 parts you mix together. other glue that I really like is the Gorilla glue. Only problem is that it foams up a little, so not really good for fine work. Also great for fixing older furniture, just use it sparingly.
               
               
               
              Jim
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15430 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
              Epoxy is the first choice in most cases. If, however, you are joining large flat surfaces, a contact cement will work. CA's can work, but not as well as the above, and the bond will be brittle. If you use CA, rough up the surfaces of both piece to give the glue some bite.

              As far as epoxies, there are hundreds of different types/brands available. In general, I find the five minute epoxies to be more flexible and impact resistant.

              I work for Liquid Nails, contract sales, so that is what I use, when I can.

              Kent in KC
              nvrr49.blogspot.com

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Richard White <toytrain13@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Denny- I purchased a tube of Barge Cement yesterday. So this is good for wood to metal bonds. What do you recommend for metal to metal bonds? Cheers- Richard White
              >
              >
              >
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > From: danspach@...
              > Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:59:30 -0500
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Glue advice wanted.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Contact cement is the best for these cars, and the best contact cement to use these days is venerable BARGE CEMENT (commonly available at Ace Hdwe. stores). It is a cement that has been around for decades, but until relatively recently only sold to and through the shoemaking/repairing trade. It is much slower -but not too much slower- to set up than GOO, is far less stringy, can be applied in tiny amounts, and when set up is incredibly tough and resilient. It can be used in either contact (10-15 minutes to full contact mode), or non-contact. Drilling a small hole, c. .060" at the tip of the crown of the cap makes it easy to apply tiny (tiny) amounts of glue. The hole can be plugged with an appropriately-sized T pin, or similar , (this same gambit will NOT work with GOO).
              >
              > ACC is a poor choice for wood/metal. It is too brittle and has very poor resistance to shear, and no matter how applied, ACC especially does not do a good job with wood that is likely to have to undergo any amount of structural stress (such as the stresses of mere handling).
              >
              > GOO, common with other contact cements, does not fail with time. I have a number of Walthers and other cars built with GOO and Pliobond from the fifties still as strong as when they were built. What can and does fail over time can be the glue joint itself, the message being that the substrate, wood or metal, was not prepared or cleaned properly prior to glue application- a must with any type of successful glue application.
              >
              > Denny
              >
              > Denny S. Anspach, MD
              > Sacramento
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15431 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Glue advice wanted.
              Hi Denny- I purchased a tube of Barge Cement yesterday. So this is good for wood to metal bonds. What do you recommend for metal to metal bonds? Cheers- Richard White

              The choice of cement depends upon the nature of the joint to be bonded.  If the joint will be subject to no structural stress , Barge Cement, GOO, or even ACC will do well (choose what is easiest to use at the moment).   If the joint will be stressed, and particularly,   if the footprint of the cemented area is small, the contact cements will always be best.  

              Of course, the very best metal/metal "cement" is solder (presuming the metals can be soldered), but this means is not always either available or practical.

              No matter what cements one chooses, if the surfaces to be joined are not cleaned, or are not free of paint, the resulting bond will be weak and will eventually fail . In particular, ACC makes the poorest of all bonds with painted surfaces.  To some extent, the solvents in the contact cements will, before wicking off, "eat" into susceptible paints, providing some better bonding.  However, even then, the bond is only with the paint, and the resulting effectiveness is then dependent completely on how strong the paint's own bond with the underlying substrate might be.

              As you begin to use Barge Cement, remember to take the time to drill a hole through the crown of cap and plug it with a pin that will provide a tight net fit. I rarely (rarely!) ever apply the glue in any other manner than through this tiny hole.  The size of the hole should be about 0.060", but measure the pin first.  I use a "T" specimen pin. I am sure hat pins or similar would work as well.  

              Denny

              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Sacramento



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15432 From: nvrr49@yahoo.com Date: 11/7/2010
              Subject: Ideal Bridge
              I have a couple of the old Ideal paper and wood bridges.  I would like to build one with some upgrades using some products available today that certainly were not available 40-50 years ago.  My question is, do you think it is worth the effort to building this kit, and add the nut bolt and washers or rivets as needed, or should I just buy a newer kit?  I have attached a couple pictures of the kit.
               
              Kent Hurley
              Kansas City, MO


              Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15433 From: ckinzer@att.net Date: 11/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Ideal Bridge [2 Attachments]
              Kent:
               
              I'm not sure anyone can really decide that for you.  It depends on what you want from the hobby, your time, and your money.
               
              If your goal is just that you need a bridge - period - then you might get something newer and save time.
               
              If you get satisfaction from resurrecting and old kit and putting your own signature detail work into it, and are willing to spend more time, then maybe build it.
               
              If you are just curious how it builds up, you maybe build it.
               
              I often tell people what an inexpensive hobby model railroading can be by the hour.  I would compare a $3 Athearn shake-the-box that cost a few dollars and took about 10 minutes to assemble with $10 craftsman kit that might take a few days.  The Athearn approach was therefore an $18 per hour hobby and the craftsman kit approach less than 50 cents an hour.
               
              Of course, a lot of nut and bolt castings start to add up.  But maybe you could figure out a cheaper alternative.
               
              I think it was John Allen who said that average cost to build his railroad was that of about two packs of cigarettes a day.  So you could even just scratchbuild your bridge.
               
              Chuck Kinzer
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: nvrr49@...
              Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 2:20 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Ideal Bridge [2 Attachments]

               

              I have a couple of the old Ideal paper and wood bridges.  I would like to build one with some upgrades using some products available today that certainly were not available 40-50 years ago.  My question is, do you think it is worth the effort to building this kit, and add the nut bolt and washers or rivets as needed, or should I just buy a newer kit?  I have attached a couple pictures of the kit.
               
              Kent Hurley
              Kansas City, MO


              Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15434 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 11/7/2010
              Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ideal Bridge

              Hi Kent,

               

              I agree, it could be a lot of fun to build that bridge.  Looks like a good challenge.

               

              Chuck Higdon

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ckinzer@...
              Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 6:49 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [SPAM]Re: [vintageHO] Ideal Bridge

               

               

              Kent:

               

              I'm not sure anyone can really decide that for you.  It depends on what you want from the hobby, your time, and your money.

               

              If your goal is just that you need a bridge - period - then you might get something newer and save time.

               

              If you get satisfaction from resurrecting and old kit and putting your own signature detail work into it, and are willing to spend more time, then maybe build it.

               

              If you are just curious how it builds up, you maybe build it.

               

              I often tell people what an inexpensive hobby model railroading can be by the hour.  I would compare a $3 Athearn shake-the-box that cost a few dollars and took about 10 minutes to assemble with $10 craftsman kit that might take a few days.  The Athearn approach was therefore an $18 per hour hobby and the craftsman kit approach less than 50 cents an hour.

               

              Of course, a lot of nut and bolt castings start to add up.  But maybe you could figure out a cheaper alternative.

               

              I think it was John Allen who said that average cost to build his railroad was that of about two packs of cigarettes a day.  So you could even just scratchbuild your bridge.

               

              Chuck Kinzer

               

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: nvrr49@...

              Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 2:20 PM

              Subject: [vintageHO] Ideal Bridge [2 Attachments]

               

               

              I have a couple of the old Ideal paper and wood bridges.  I would like to build one with some upgrades using some products available today that certainly were not available 40-50 years ago.  My question is, do you think it is worth the effort to building this kit, and add the nut bolt and washers or rivets as needed, or should I just buy a newer kit?  I have attached a couple pictures of the kit.
               

              Kent Hurley
              Kansas City , MO

               

              Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15435 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Ideal Bridge [2 Attachments]
              Chuck, thanks for your input. I truely am seeking what each of the members of this group would do. We are all interested in vintage items, so I am looking what others might do.

              Kent in KC

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:
              >
              > Kent:
              >
              > I'm not sure anyone can really decide that for you. It depends on what you want from the hobby, your time, and your money.
              >
              > If your goal is just that you need a bridge - period - then you might get something newer and save time.
              >
              > If you get satisfaction from resurrecting and old kit and putting your own signature detail work into it, and are willing to spend more time, then maybe build it.
              >
              > If you are just curious how it builds up, you maybe build it.
              >
              > I often tell people what an inexpensive hobby model railroading can be by the hour. I would compare a $3 Athearn shake-the-box that cost a few dollars and took about 10 minutes to assemble with $10 craftsman kit that might take a few days. The Athearn approach was therefore an $18 per hour hobby and the craftsman kit approach less than 50 cents an hour.
              >
              > Of course, a lot of nut and bolt castings start to add up. But maybe you could figure out a cheaper alternative.
              >
              > I think it was John Allen who said that average cost to build his railroad was that of about two packs of cigarettes a day. So you could even just scratchbuild your bridge.
              >
              > Chuck Kinzer
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: nvrr49@...
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 2:20 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Ideal Bridge [2 Attachments]
              >
              >
              >
              > [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... included below]
              >
              >
              > I have a couple of the old Ideal paper and wood bridges. I would like to build one with some upgrades using some products available today that certainly were not available 40-50 years ago. My question is, do you think it is worth the effort to building this kit, and add the nut bolt and washers or rivets as needed, or should I just buy a newer kit? I have attached a couple pictures of the kit.
              >
              > Kent Hurley
              > Kansas City, MO
              >
              >
              >
              > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15436 From: Rod Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Am I at the right place?
              Hello.

              My name is Rod LaFrance, here in balmy Greenacres, WA.

              I hope this is the right group to help guide me in the correct direction. I posted a picture in a folder titled Rod's.

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/recent/list

              Trying to find answers and to expand on HO cars my father used to put together in my youth, but never finished. His goal was a small detailed HO layout, my goal is to finish his.

              I've made a few good purchases of late on Ebay, but I've made many more which were wrong. So I'm searching for some guidance, and education on this subject. I'm also looking for the correct steam engine to pull his cars. I can not remember if it was a kit, or pre-built item.

              Sorry in advance if this question has been answered before. I did search this group, but with my limited knowledge on this subject, I found myself in information overload.

              Again, I hope this is the right place where I can sit on the fence and learn.

              Thanks again

              Rod LaFrance
              Greenacres, WA
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15437 From: Tod D Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              Hello Group,

              I recently acquired a Hobbyline 40' gondola and can't seem to find any information on it. I'd like to find out how common ( or uncommon ) it is. Was it a regular release or a specialty run .

              It is yellow with Hobbyline lettering. The reporting marks are " HO 1297 " and it has the US map logo on the right.

              Any information fellow members can provide will be greatly appreciated.

              Thank you.

              Tod ( Ohio )
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15438 From: jim heckard Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Conover 2-10-2 Project
               

               
               
                   Since its a little slow on the site I thought I would send some pictures to update my Conover 2-10-2 S-1 project.
               
                After spending a total of 58 hours I finally have totally cleaned ( filed ) off all the the poorly cast sandy and pitted like parts including finishing the boiler. This was not just dirt or residue left from the casting process that could be wire brushed off. I can now start to assemble the engine. I have assembled the pieces for the tender body and installed a false sheet brass bottom for the tender hopper so I can add coal later since there was just a big open hole. Tomorrow I will start drilling and tapping holes to attach the frame and the top walkway.Small details will follow.
               
                  While I am slowly collecting missing original Conover parts, mostly small detail parts, I have not been able to find the original bronze tender trucks. I am looking  TO BUY a set of 6 wheel brass / bronze trucks similar to Varney or Mantua styles. Better yet I could use tender trucks for a B&O 2-10-2 S-1 " Big Six". Anyone that can help me please contact me off site at   jimheck@...  with your price.
               
                                                                                     Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15439 From: jim heckard Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
               
                   Tod,
               
                  I don't deal much with collecting freight cars other then when I buy sets for my collection. Perhaps if you go to  www.hoseeker.net  and click on Literature, go down to HObbyline you can search the material / catalogs and see a couple of different HObbyline gondolas. I can't tell you if or how rare your gondola is but perhaps someone else will reply. Good Luck.
               
                                                                            Jim H 
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Tod D
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 6:15 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?

               

              Hello Group,

              I recently acquired a Hobbyline 40' gondola and can't seem to find any information on it. I'd like to find out how common ( or uncommon ) it is. Was it a regular release or a specialty run .

              It is yellow with Hobbyline lettering. The reporting marks are " HO 1297 " and it has the US map logo on the right.

              Any information fellow members can provide will be greatly appreciated.

              Thank you.

              Tod ( Ohio )

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15440 From: Riverboy Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              Hi Jim,
               
              I already checked out Hoseeker already without any luck. They list the gondola model, but no specifics on what roads were available. I'm sure someone will be able to help.
               
              Thanks.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Tue, 11/9/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 8:06 PM

               
               
                   Tod,
               
                  I don't deal much with collecting freight cars other then when I buy sets for my collection. Perhaps if you go to  www.hoseeker.net  and click on Literature, go down to HObbyline you can search the material / catalogs and see a couple of different HObbyline gondolas. I can't tell you if or how rare your gondola is but perhaps someone else will reply. Good Luck.
               
                                                                            Jim H 
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Tod D
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 6:15 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?

               
              Hello Group,

              I recently acquired a Hobbyline 40' gondola and can't seem to find any information on it. I'd like to find out how common ( or uncommon ) it is. Was it a regular release or a specialty run .

              It is yellow with Hobbyline lettering. The reporting marks are " HO 1297 " and it has the US map logo on the right.

              Any information fellow members can provide will be greatly appreciated.

              Thank you.

              Tod ( Ohio )

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15441 From: jim heckard Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Am I at the right place?
               
               
                   Hi Rod,
               
                    I will try to help you a little but your questions are a little on the broad side. I understand the items you sent a picture of are " vintage". I don't collect or deal with freight cars to much so I can't help with specific companies / items. There is so much out there from those early time periods you will have to decide exactly what types of cars you want, what they are made of, the difficulty to assemble the kits and roughly what time period you want.. Perhaps already assembled kits or items would be a better way to go.
               
                  Now about what  steam engine. It's hard to answer this using a little of the above information. What area of the country will it represent ? What size layout do you intend to build ? What type of operation ? Will you be running small trains and doing switching or longer trains pulling a number of cars ? All this will mean what type of steam engine would best suit your needs. Then you will have to decide from a number of options exactly what engine style and by what company. Then you deal with cost, reliability and how well each engine runs. You already mentioned not sure factory assembled and RTR, a kit or an already assembled kit.
               
                    I'm sorry that I might have added to that information overload you mentioned. Hopefully others might have suggestions or options.
               
                                                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Rod
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 5:02 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Am I at the right place?

               

              Hello.

              My name is Rod LaFrance, here in balmy Greenacres, WA.

              I hope this is the right group to help guide me in the correct direction. I posted a picture in a folder titled Rod's.

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/recent/list

              Trying to find answers and to expand on HO cars my father used to put together in my youth, but never finished. His goal was a small detailed HO layout, my goal is to finish his.

              I've made a few good purchases of late on Ebay, but I've made many more which were wrong. So I'm searching for some guidance, and education on this subject. I'm also looking for the correct steam engine to pull his cars. I can not remember if it was a kit, or pre-built item.

              Sorry in advance if this question has been answered before. I did search this group, but with my limited knowledge on this subject, I found myself in information overload.

              Again, I hope this is the right place where I can sit on the fence and learn.

              Thanks again

              Rod LaFrance
              Greenacres, WA

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15442 From: jim heckard Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              
              Tod,
               
                  In case no one else can help you I just sent out a request to a friend that collects HObbyline items asking for his help to identify. If I hear anything I'll get back to you but no guarantee it will be tonight.
               
                                                   Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Riverboy
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?

               

              Hi Jim,
               
              I already checked out Hoseeker already without any luck. They list the gondola model, but no specifics on what roads were available. I'm sure someone will be able to help.
               
              Thanks.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Tue, 11/9/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 8:06 PM

               
               
                   Tod,
               
                  I don't deal much with collecting freight cars other then when I buy sets for my collection. Perhaps if you go to  www.hoseeker.net  and click on Literature, go down to HObbyline you can search the material / catalogs and see a couple of different HObbyline gondolas. I can't tell you if or how rare your gondola is but perhaps someone else will reply. Good Luck.
               
                                                                            Jim H 
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Tod D
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 6:15 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?

               
              Hello Group,

              I recently acquired a Hobbyline 40' gondola and can't seem to find any information on it. I'd like to find out how common ( or uncommon ) it is. Was it a regular release or a specialty run .

              It is yellow with Hobbyline lettering. The reporting marks are " HO 1297 " and it has the US map logo on the right.

              Any information fellow members can provide will be greatly appreciated.

              Thank you.

              Tod ( Ohio )

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15443 From: Riverboy Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              Hi JIm,
               
              All we can do is try. Thanks.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Tue, 11/9/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 8:38 PM

               
              
              Tod,
               
                  In case no one else can help you I just sent out a request to a friend that collects HObbyline items asking for his help to identify. If I hear anything I'll get back to you but no guarantee it will be tonight.
               
                                                   Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Riverboy
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?

               
              Hi Jim,
               
              I already checked out Hoseeker already without any luck. They list the gondola model, but no specifics on what roads were available. I'm sure someone will be able to help.
               
              Thanks.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Tue, 11/9/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, November 9, 2010, 8:06 PM

               
               
                   Tod,
               
                  I don't deal much with collecting freight cars other then when I buy sets for my collection. Perhaps if you go to  www.hoseeker.net  and click on Literature, go down to HObbyline you can search the material / catalogs and see a couple of different HObbyline gondolas. I can't tell you if or how rare your gondola is but perhaps someone else will reply. Good Luck.
               
                                                                            Jim H 
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Tod D
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 6:15 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?

               
              Hello Group,

              I recently acquired a Hobbyline 40' gondola and can't seem to find any information on it. I'd like to find out how common ( or uncommon ) it is. Was it a regular release or a specialty run .

              It is yellow with Hobbyline lettering. The reporting marks are " HO 1297 " and it has the US map logo on the right.

              Any information fellow members can provide will be greatly appreciated.

              Thank you.

              Tod ( Ohio )

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15444 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Am I at the right place?
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Rod" <c50truck@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 4:02 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Am I at the right place?


              > Hello.
              >
              > My name is Rod LaFrance, here in balmy Greenacres, WA.
              >
              > I hope this is the right group to help guide me in the correct direction.
              > I posted a picture in a folder titled Rod's.
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/photos/recent/list
              >
              > Trying to find answers and to expand on HO cars my father used to put
              > together in my youth, but never finished. His goal was a small detailed HO
              > layout, my goal is to finish his.
              >
              > I've made a few good purchases of late on Ebay, but I've made many more
              > which were wrong. So I'm searching for some guidance, and education on
              > this subject. I'm also looking for the correct steam engine to pull his
              > cars. I can not remember if it was a kit, or pre-built item.
              >
              > Sorry in advance if this question has been answered before. I did search
              > this group, but with my limited knowledge on this subject, I found myself
              > in information overload.
              >
              > Again, I hope this is the right place where I can sit on the fence and
              > learn.
              >
              > Thanks again
              >
              > Rod LaFrance
              > Greenacres, WA

              Welcome aboard, hope you enjoy the ride.

              As far as your questions, from the photos I can't tell which Silver Streak
              kits you have, but the Central Valley ones represent cars from around the
              turn of the 19th/20th century. The Silver Streak cars however usually were
              more repetitive of cars from around the 1920's and 30's.

              If you want a "vintage" locomotive, a good choice would be something like
              the Varney/Bowser "Casey Jones" 4-6-0 or "Old Lady" 2-8-0. These were
              common enough that you should still be able to find them at fairly
              reasonable prices (certainly a lot less than the Chinese junk being foisted
              off on hobbyists today).



              Otherwise, it's your railroad, run whatever you want.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15445 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover 2-10-2 Project [2 Attachments]

              Hi Jim,

              Nice to see the progress, I was just thinking about this loco.

              Take care,

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:48 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Conover 2-10-2 Project [2 Attachments]

               

               

               

               

               

               

                   Since its a little slow on the site I thought I would send some pictures to update my Conover 2-10-2 S-1 project.

               

                After spending a total of 58 hours I finally have totally cleaned ( filed ) off all the the poorly cast sandy and pitted like parts including finishing the boiler. This was not just dirt or residue left from the casting process that could be wire brushed off. I can now start to assemble the engine. I have assembled the pieces for the tender body and installed a false sheet brass bottom for the tender hopper so I can add coal later since there was just a big open hole. Tomorrow I will start drilling and tapping holes to attach the frame and the top walkway.Small details will follow.

               

                  While I am slowly collecting missing original Conover parts, mostly small detail parts, I have not been able to find the original bronze tender trucks. I am looking  TO BUY a set of 6 wheel brass / bronze trucks similar to Varney or Mantua styles. Better yet I could use tender trucks for a B&O 2-10-2 S-1 " Big Six". Anyone that can help me please contact me off site at   jimheck@...  with your price.

               

                                                                                     Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15446 From: al45390 Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!
              Jim H./Don D,

              Jim, with your knowledge, and your remarkable collection, I was hoping you would chime in.

              Don, you too have vast knowledge and many examples of rare birds, all operating no less. Can you enlighten me?

              Thanks, gentlemen,
              Walter

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "al45390" <bayerw2@...> wrote:

              If Tenshodo supplied the passenger cars, or at least parts of them, to Marx, I wonder how the prices compared. I seem to recall that the Tenshodo cars were $$$ for their time. Did Tenshodo and Marx offer the passengers cars in the same years?

              Walter
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@> wrote:

              I have photos comparing the two cars. It's one of the things I'm trying to figure out where to put them. I will probably post them with the notes section. I actually do mention in the notes section for the passenger cars that they are made by Tenshodo for Marx. I just need to post the comparison photos. The trucks on the passenger cars are the same ones used for the Marx F7's, GP7's, and tenders.

              Steve W.
              > > www.prrh.org
              > > www.marx-trains.com
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: al45390
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 11:39 AM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx Passenger Cars

              Steve,

              I took a look at your website. Great job! Nice collection.

              The passenger cars on your website are remarkably similar [the body and underframe at least are similar] to Tenshodo's brass shorty corrugated sides passenger cars. Has anybody else noted this? The Marx trucks look like Blomberg diesel trucks, and the Tenshodo are more appropriate [similar to Athearn Passenger trucks], but still ...
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15447 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!
              I can't tell you about the Marx, but Tenshodo had 60' smooth sides painted
              in several roads, and 60' rib sides unlettered silver. As I recall, the rib
              sides also came as kits.

              Price as I recall was $ 19.95.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "al45390" <bayerw2@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:49 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!


              > Jim H./Don D,
              >
              > Jim, with your knowledge, and your remarkable collection, I was hoping you
              > would chime in.
              >
              > Don, you too have vast knowledge and many examples of rare birds, all
              > operating no less. Can you enlighten me?
              >
              > Thanks, gentlemen,
              > Walter
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "al45390" <bayerw2@...> wrote:
              >
              > If Tenshodo supplied the passenger cars, or at least parts of them, to
              > Marx, I wonder how the prices compared. I seem to recall that the Tenshodo
              > cars were $$$ for their time. Did Tenshodo and Marx offer the passengers
              > cars in the same years?
              >
              > Walter
              >>
              >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@>
              >> wrote:
              >
              > I have photos comparing the two cars. It's one of the things I'm trying to
              > figure out where to put them. I will probably post them with the notes
              > section. I actually do mention in the notes section for the passenger cars
              > that they are made by Tenshodo for Marx. I just need to post the
              > comparison photos. The trucks on the passenger cars are the same ones used
              > for the Marx F7's, GP7's, and tenders.
              >
              > Steve W.
              >> > www.prrh.org
              >> > www.marx-trains.com
              >> > ----- Original Message -----
              >> > From: al45390
              >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >> > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 11:39 AM
              >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx Passenger Cars
              >
              > Steve,
              >
              > I took a look at your website. Great job! Nice collection.
              >
              > The passenger cars on your website are remarkably similar [the body and
              > underframe at least are similar] to Tenshodo's brass shorty corrugated
              > sides passenger cars. Has anybody else noted this? The Marx trucks look
              > like Blomberg diesel trucks, and the Tenshodo are more appropriate
              > [similar to Athearn Passenger trucks], but still ...
              > Walter
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15448 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 11/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!
              Thanks, Don.

              I thought the Tenshodo ribbed sides also came in NYC and Santa Fe.

              $19.95 was a lot to me in the 60's, and it was a lot compared with OK, and even Am Beauty. That is why it seems so far out that Tenshodo should be OEM to Marx.

              There do not appear to be any Marx catalogs or price lists on HO Seeker. The Tenshodo price lists are not in US Dollars.

              Regards,
              Walter

              On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 1:48 AM, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
               

              I can't tell you about the Marx, but Tenshodo had 60' smooth sides painted
              in several roads, and 60' rib sides unlettered silver. As I recall, the rib
              sides also came as kits.

              Price as I recall was $ 19.95.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "al45390" <bayerw2@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:49 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!

              > Jim H./Don D,
              >
              > Jim, with your knowledge, and your remarkable collection, I was hoping you
              > would chime in.
              >
              > Don, you too have vast knowledge and many examples of rare birds, all
              > operating no less. Can you enlighten me?
              >
              > Thanks, gentlemen,
              > Walter
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "al45390" <bayerw2@...> wrote:
              >
              > If Tenshodo supplied the passenger cars, or at least parts of them, to
              > Marx, I wonder how the prices compared. I seem to recall that the Tenshodo
              > cars were $$$ for their time. Did Tenshodo and Marx offer the passengers
              > cars in the same years?
              >
              > Walter
              >>
              >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "My-Yahoo-Groups" <yahoo-groups@>
              >> wrote:
              >
              > I have photos comparing the two cars. It's one of the things I'm trying to
              > figure out where to put them. I will probably post them with the notes
              > section. I actually do mention in the notes section for the passenger cars
              > that they are made by Tenshodo for Marx. I just need to post the
              > comparison photos. The trucks on the passenger cars are the same ones used
              > for the Marx F7's, GP7's, and tenders.
              >
              > Steve W.
              >> > www.prrh.org
              >> > www.marx-trains.com
              >> > ----- Original Message -----
              >> > From: al45390
              >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >> > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 11:39 AM
              >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marx Passenger Cars
              >
              > Steve,
              >
              > I took a look at your website. Great job! Nice collection.
              >
              > The passenger cars on your website are remarkably similar [the body and
              > underframe at least are similar] to Tenshodo's brass shorty corrugated
              > sides passenger cars. Has anybody else noted this? The Marx trucks look
              > like Blomberg diesel trucks, and the Tenshodo are more appropriate
              > [similar to Athearn Passenger trucks], but still ...
              > Walter
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15449 From: Graeme Date: 11/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Am I at the right place?
              In message <ibcgcr+g87j@...>, Rod <c50truck@...> writes

              >
              >Trying to find answers and to expand on HO cars my father used to put
              >together in my youth, but never finished. His goal was a small detailed
              >HO layout, my goal is to finish his.

              Hi Rod <waves>,

              My interest in the 00/H0 world centres on UK production, with a little
              venturing into Europe, but I enjoy reading this group, even though my
              knowledge of an interest in US H0 is limited. One site you may enjoy is
              the H0 resource, which, although dedicated to ready to run, may have
              vintage items of interest to you :

              http://ho-scaletrains.net/index.html

              --
              Graeme Eldred, Scotland
              TCA 04-57743
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15450 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx Passenger Cars, by Tenshodo!
              Walter, The IMP/Takara company that we've discussed as being affiliated
              with Tenshodo produced their fluted (but no smooth-side) cars in Pennsylvania,
              New York Central and Sante Fe. It's reasonable to believe Tenshodo also
              made them in these three roads, but I couldn't swear to it. Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15451 From: jim heckard Date: 11/10/2010
              Subject: Marx Passenger vs Tenshodo
               
               
                      I had been away for a number of days and have only scanned the thread concerning Marx Passenger cars as to how they might relate to Tenshodo. I've sent pictures of my 3 car set although I think you can view a set on a Marx site run by a member.
               
                  I can't offer much info on Tenshodo passenger cars. Even though I have over 400 vintage passenger cars in my collection it's to hard to collect every item from every company. With that said I will offer my 2 cents about Marx passenger cars even though a lot of this has probably been discussed already.
               
                  There were only 3 passenger cars sold by Marx. The date I have is 1958. They are silver in color and labeled for the Santa Fe only.  # 30246   Baggage / Passenger,  # 80971  Passenger /Coach  and  # 71875  Observation. They did have the Bloomberg trucks that Marx used extensively on a number of items including F units, Geeps and the 4-6-4 tender to keep cost down.
               
                   I have know idea how much these Marx Passenger cars sold for new. I have found very little paperwork / information about Marx HO in general. The only catalog I have is  " Greenberg's Pocket Price Guide and Inventory Checklist to Marx Trains ". HO is a small section at the back and only gives you the type of item made and the year. Even having a number of Marx HO and Sears Allstate HO ( Marx items ) sets I have never found any paperwork inside the boxes.
               
                 I have always been told by fellow collectors that Tenshodo was the maker of these Marx passenger cars. It's possible that Tenshodo sub contracted these out to another little company since there were so many in Japan at that time. I have found nothing different to contradict that but that doesn't mean its written in stone.
               
                                                                 Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15452 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 11/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx Passenger vs Tenshodo [3 Attachments]
              Thank you for the info and photos, Jim. 1958 was quite a while back, when Japanese goods were still cheap, though they had yet to achieve that quality for which they later became so famous.
              Regards,
              Walter

              On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:15 AM, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:
               
              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]

               
               
                      I had been away for a number of days and have only scanned the thread concerning Marx Passenger cars as to how they might relate to Tenshodo. I've sent pictures of my 3 car set although I think you can view a set on a Marx site run by a member.
               
                  I can't offer much info on Tenshodo passenger cars. Even though I have over 400 vintage passenger cars in my collection it's to hard to collect every item from every company. With that said I will offer my 2 cents about Marx passenger cars even though a lot of this has probably been discussed already.
               
                  There were only 3 passenger cars sold by Marx. The date I have is 1958. They are silver in color and labeled for the Santa Fe only.  # 30246   Baggage / Passenger,  # 80971  Passenger /Coach  and  # 71875  Observation. They did have the Bloomberg trucks that Marx used extensively on a number of items including F units, Geeps and the 4-6-4 tender to keep cost down.
               
                   I have know idea how much these Marx Passenger cars sold for new. I have found very little paperwork / information about Marx HO in general. The only catalog I have is  " Greenberg's Pocket Price Guide and Inventory Checklist to Marx Trains ". HO is a small section at the back and only gives you the type of item made and the year. Even having a number of Marx HO and Sears Allstate HO ( Marx items ) sets I have never found any paperwork inside the boxes.
               
                 I have always been told by fellow collectors that Tenshodo was the maker of these Marx passenger cars. It's possible that Tenshodo sub contracted these out to another little company since there were so many in Japan at that time. I have found nothing different to contradict that but that doesn't mean its written in stone.
               
                                                                 Jim H



              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15453 From: Rod Date: 11/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Am I at the right place?
              Hello Graeme,

              Always a pleasure bumping into you in the various train groups. Thanks for the link. I have to start somewhere.

              Jim,

              You sure raised some questions I thought I had the answers to. Yet all I know for sure is the layout will not be over 4x8 and wood kit boxcars will be ran. The steamer, I'm not sure.

              Don,

              Yes I am looking for a vintage locomotive. Thanks for the suggestions. I always like to hear the word "reasonable" when talking prices.

              Again, while reading the most current post, I'll search the past post for more information, and to help educate myself.

              Thanks

              Rod LaFrance
              Greenacres, WA
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15454 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Marx Passenger vs Tenshodo [3 Attachments]
              Attachments :
              Here is all I have on the Tenshodo cars. I'm not sure which catalog, but
              this dates mid to late 1960's. Look especially at the rib side dome
              observation, you'll see the same rather oddly proportioned vestibule door as
              the Marx cars.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:15 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Marx Passenger vs Tenshodo [3 Attachments]




              I had been away for a number of days and have only scanned the
              thread concerning Marx Passenger cars as to how they might relate to
              Tenshodo. I've sent pictures of my 3 car set although I think you can view a
              set on a Marx site run by a member.

              I can't offer much info on Tenshodo passenger cars. Even though I have
              over 400 vintage passenger cars in my collection it's to hard to collect
              every item from every company. With that said I will offer my 2 cents about
              Marx passenger cars even though a lot of this has probably been discussed
              already.

              There were only 3 passenger cars sold by Marx. The date I have is 1958.
              They are silver in color and labeled for the Santa Fe only. # 30246
              Baggage / Passenger, # 80971 Passenger /Coach and # 71875 Observation.
              They did have the Bloomberg trucks that Marx used extensively on a number of
              items including F units, Geeps and the 4-6-4 tender to keep cost down.

              I have know idea how much these Marx Passenger cars sold for new. I
              have found very little paperwork / information about Marx HO in general. The
              only catalog I have is " Greenberg's Pocket Price Guide and Inventory
              Checklist to Marx Trains ". HO is a small section at the back and only gives
              you the type of item made and the year. Even having a number of Marx HO and
              Sears Allstate HO ( Marx items ) sets I have never found any paperwork
              inside the boxes.

              I have always been told by fellow collectors that Tenshodo was the maker
              of these Marx passenger cars. It's possible that Tenshodo sub contracted
              these out to another little company since there were so many in Japan at
              that time. I have found nothing different to contradict that but that
              doesn't mean its written in stone.

              Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15455 From: midpoint37 Date: 11/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Ideal Bridge [2 Attachments]
              Another alternative would be to copy the plan and build the bridge out of Plastruct and Evergreen. That way you save the unbuilt kit and have the bridge.

              IIRC those old kits were die cut from cardboard because almost anything else was reserved for war production until '53 or so.

              John Webster

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "nvrr49" <nvrr49@...> wrote:
              >
              > Chuck, thanks for your input. I truely am seeking what each of the members of this group would do. We are all interested in vintage items, so I am looking what others might do.
              >
              > Kent in KC
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Kent:
              > >
              > > I'm not sure anyone can really decide that for you. It depends on what you want from the hobby, your time, and your money.
              > >
              > > If your goal is just that you need a bridge - period - then you might get something newer and save time.
              > >
              > > If you get satisfaction from resurrecting and old kit and putting your own signature detail work into it, and are willing to spend more time, then maybe build it.
              > >
              > > If you are just curious how it builds up, you maybe build it.
              > >
              > > I often tell people what an inexpensive hobby model railroading can be by the hour. I would compare a $3 Athearn shake-the-box that cost a few dollars and took about 10 minutes to assemble with $10 craftsman kit that might take a few days. The Athearn approach was therefore an $18 per hour hobby and the craftsman kit approach less than 50 cents an hour.
              > >
              > > Of course, a lot of nut and bolt castings start to add up. But maybe you could figure out a cheaper alternative.
              > >
              > > I think it was John Allen who said that average cost to build his railroad was that of about two packs of cigarettes a day. So you could even just scratchbuild your bridge.
              > >
              > > Chuck Kinzer
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: nvrr49@
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 2:20 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Ideal Bridge [2 Attachments]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@ included below]
              > >
              > >
              > > I have a couple of the old Ideal paper and wood bridges. I would like to build one with some upgrades using some products available today that certainly were not available 40-50 years ago. My question is, do you think it is worth the effort to building this kit, and add the nut bolt and washers or rivets as needed, or should I just buy a newer kit? I have attached a couple pictures of the kit.
              > >
              > > Kent Hurley
              > > Kansas City, MO
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15456 From: jim heckard Date: 11/11/2010
              Subject: HObbyline 40' Gondola, Rarity
              Tod D
               
                  This is the answer I received concerning the HObbyline 40' Gondola you ask about. You can see it must be a specialty item made by HObbyline for a company called E&H hobbies. I consider my friend Rick as the second best HObbyline collector / expert after George Horan. As to rarity if Rick hasn't seen or heard of one it must be rare, if his info is correct. You will have to take this info for what it's worth.
                 Hope this helps.
                                                                     Jim H
               

              Sorry it must of got blocked. Hobbyline made some special run cars (mostly box cars and hoppers) with a US map on the side for E and H hobbies for advertizing purposes. I've never seen a gondola but would guess that's one too. If its for sale I would be interested.
               

               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Hi Rick,
               
                 Have questions for the HObbyline expert. Looking to find out any info about a HObbyline 40" Gondola, Yellow in color with HObbyline lettering, reporting marks are HO1297 and it has a US map on the right side. Any idea ? Common or uncommon, any rarity to it.
               
                 Someone asking me and I don't deal in freight cars so asking for help.
               
                                                                           Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15457 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/11/2010
              Subject: Reducing collection.
              For those in the northern California region who may be attending the popular annual Roseville (CA) "International Railfair" this weekend, I will be deaccessioning virtually all of my remaining finished metal Athearn (some Menzies), and metal Athearn cars (fewer). Most are VG or better, and virtually all have been maintained layout-ready, both mechanically and cosmetically. There are about 50+/- cars in the lot. They will be "priced to sell", and those that do not sell will be candidates for donation to a legal charity.

              If there is any substantial interest in purchasing the entire lot as a lot, I will consider selling as a lot, throwing in a bunch of other old stuff surplus to my foreseeable needs and interests. I regret that I am not equipped to sell them individually through the mail.

              There will also be a fair number of old kits, at least one or two Globes, Ideal, etc., etc.

              I apologise for the late notice, but other matters have taken precedence.

              Contact me only OFF LINE at danspach@....

              Denny






              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Sacramento
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15458 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/11/2010
              Subject: Couple of parts needed
              Ulrich composite gondola. (Series CG, kit 106)
              I have two, one complete, the other almost.
              The idiot former owner lost the ends.
              I have read that the sides sometimes crumble......so, if anyone has an old Ulrich gon with crumbling sides and good stamped steel ends, I need both ends.
              Not an emergency, just someday I'd like to "fix" it.

              One more....I need one Varney truck (one broken, all I have is the round "hub"), these are the non-sprung, non-equalized trucks, with little tabs on the bottom of the journals to bend over to hold the wheelsets in. (Raised letters "Varney" on the bottom of the hub surrounding the screwhole)
              Need it with wheelsets, just to "finish" this car.

              Thanks.
              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15459 From: jim heckard Date: 11/11/2010
              Subject: Two steps forward, none back
               

                     Latest pictures of the Conover 2-10-2. After getting the parts cleaned and the drilling and tapping as called for I have been able to start assembling the tender. You know I like to have my vintage collectable engines as near to original as possible.  The tender is almost complete save some small details ( ladders, handrails, etc. ) and the trucks which I haven't found. I have been lucky enough to come across a man who does have a number of missing parts I need and they are in the mail which will make this entire project easier.. I will now start on the frame / drivers / lead & trailing truck which again require drilling and tapping to assemble those parts.
               
                                                                              Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15460 From: Riverboy Date: 11/11/2010
              Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola, Rarity
              Hi JIm,
               
              Actually, this car has the map on it, but across the map is " HObbyline " and not E&H Hobbies . I will take some photos and attach them in a short bit.
               
              Tod
               


              --- On Thu, 11/11/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola, Rarity
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 10:43 AM

               
              Tod D
               
                  This is the answer I received concerning the HObbyline 40' Gondola you ask about. You can see it must be a specialty item made by HObbyline for a company called E&H hobbies. I consider my friend Rick as the second best HObbyline collector / expert after George Horan. As to rarity if Rick hasn't seen or heard of one it must be rare, if his info is correct. You will have to take this info for what it's worth.
                 Hope this helps.
                                                                     Jim H
               

              Sorry it must of got blocked. Hobbyline made some special run cars (mostly box cars and hoppers) with a US map on the side for E and H hobbies for advertizing purposes. I've never seen a gondola but would guess that's one too. If its for sale I would be interested.
               

               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Hi Rick,
               
                 Have questions for the HObbyline expert. Looking to find out any info about a HObbyline 40" Gondola, Yellow in color with HObbyline lettering, reporting marks are HO1297 and it has a US map on the right side. Any idea ? Common or uncommon, any rarity to it.
               
                 Someone asking me and I don't deal in freight cars so asking for help.
               
                                                                           Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15461 From: Riverboy Date: 11/11/2010
              Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola, Rarity (Photo)
              Hi Group,
               
              Here is a photo of the car I have that is the topic of discussion.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Thu, 11/11/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola, Rarity
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 10:43 AM

               
              Tod D
               
                  This is the answer I received concerning the HObbyline 40' Gondola you ask about. You can see it must be a specialty item made by HObbyline for a company called E&H hobbies. I consider my friend Rick as the second best HObbyline collector / expert after George Horan. As to rarity if Rick hasn't seen or heard of one it must be rare, if his info is correct. You will have to take this info for what it's worth.
                 Hope this helps.
                                                                     Jim H
               

              Sorry it must of got blocked. Hobbyline made some special run cars (mostly box cars and hoppers) with a US map on the side for E and H hobbies for advertizing purposes. I've never seen a gondola but would guess that's one too. If its for sale I would be interested.
               

               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Hi Rick,
               
                 Have questions for the HObbyline expert. Looking to find out any info about a HObbyline 40" Gondola, Yellow in color with HObbyline lettering, reporting marks are HO1297 and it has a US map on the right side. Any idea ? Common or uncommon, any rarity to it.
               
                 Someone asking me and I don't deal in freight cars so asking for help.
               
                                                                           Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15462 From: jay matz Date: 11/11/2010
              Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              Tod
              I have a gondola, box car and a caboose with that lettering. They show up on Ebay and have seen them at train meets. Not very rare.
              Jay



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15463 From: Riverboy Date: 11/11/2010
              Subject: Re: HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              Hi Jay,
               
              Thanks for the information. I think it's a nice looking car and plan on keeping it. I just had never seen one before.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Thu, 11/11/10, jay matz <dlw455@...> wrote:

              From: jay matz <dlw455@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] HObbyline 40' Gondola Rarity?
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 5:00 PM

               
              Tod
              I have a gondola, box car and a caboose with that lettering. They show up on Ebay and have seen them at train meets. Not very rare.
              Jay


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15464 From: jim heckard Date: 11/11/2010
              Subject: Hobbyline 40" Gondola
              Tod,
               
                       I sent your picture to my friend.  For my knowledge I would love to see pictures of other types of freight cars with a map on them to see if they are for E&H Hobby or were they lettered HObbyline over the map..(You didn't mentioned at first that HObbyline was printed over the map. unless I missed that ) If you look at the HObbyline catalogs  ( I have three ) over the years you will see that although you can see the word HObbyline printed on the sides of some diesels and caboose you don't see any freight cars with a map with anything printed over it let alone HObbyline. Because of that I have to think cars that did ( have a map ) were not the norm.
               
                  However I just found a list of all HObbyline items and assuming it is complete it shows 13 different HObbyline gondolas giving roadname, color and number of each items including the kits. It has one listed as HObbyline for the road name, yellow but numbered 1287 . Could this be your car ?    
               
                  Lets get into rarity. HObbyline were not top of the line items. No matter how "rare" any HObbyline item is there are not big bucks associated with any of them. I think the word "unusual" or "not the norm" would be better then rare.
               
                  My motto for vintage HO has always been " Never say never" since there is so much unknown out there to learn. As I
               stated at the start take it for what its worth. I tried to pinpoint your car for you. I'm learning too.
               
                                                                                                     Jim H
               
                                                                                                
               
                 
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15465 From: nvrr49 Date: 11/11/2010
              Subject: Crescent A Unit
              I picked up a Crescent A unit today. No drive train, but the body assembly has been started. I will post some pictures in my file, nvrr49, later tonight. I really don't have a need for this, so if anyone is interested, contact me offline.

              Kent in KC
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15466 From: Chris B Date: 11/13/2010
              Subject: vintageHO on ebay (I'm not selling or bidding, just admiring a large
              FYI some vintageHO on ebay with no bids that close today, all from the same seller...I have my hands full with finding vintage trolley trucks and sideframes right now, so I'm not going for any of these, but I thought they were worth noting, especially for Hobbytown bargain fans, who should look at the mantua shells and the chassis kit pictures especially closely.
              Also has multiple vintage car kits (some with no bids) and other engines that do have 1 or more bids on them...Chris B.

              Item image
               
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              These aren't cheap at $49, but if they're what you need, that's a fair price IMHO,

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              other neat stuff...

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              From: nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, November 11, 2010 8:28:54 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Crescent A Unit

               

              I picked up a Crescent A unit today. No drive train, but the body assembly has been started. I will post some pictures in my file, nvrr49, later tonight. I really don't have a need for this, so if anyone is interested, contact me offline.

              Kent in KC


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15467 From: jim heckard Date: 11/13/2010
              Subject: More Conover baby steps
               

               
                         After receiving some original Conover parts I have been able to move forward a little more. I was able to find the original window inserts, the cast pilot / cow catcher ( odd it is actually suppose to be cast lead not bronze), 2 one piece side rods and a pre drilled pre cut out gear opening bottom cover plate. I was able to drill and tap the engine frame to put on the bottom cover plate. I drilled holes in the lead truck to put the wheel set in and attached it to the frame. I have the pieces ready to assemble the trailing truck. After I drill holes in the side frames to take the wheel set axle they will have to be soldered to the piece that attaches to the frame. You have to bend them to shape till the wheel set is in place and then add a support bar across the back.
               
                   After all the work involved and still a lot to go I think it is finally starting to take shape and look like the powerful " Big Six " steam engine it is patterned after. A really neat piece for my vintage collection. I will have some other parts, including valve gear, along with some small detail parts arriving soon. Hopefully I can find tender trucks or a good substitute.
               
                                                                     Jim H
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15468 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/14/2010
              Subject: Trainfest 2010
              Attachments :
              As many of you may know, this weekend was "Trainfest" in Milwaukee,
              "America's largest operating model railroad show"

              http://www.trainfest.com/index.html

              Yours truly exhibits as part of the "Cream City Traction". I saw a few of
              you there, and some nice vintage pieces. I was going to talk about the new
              car I added to my vintage collection (a Walthers SSW Arch roof solarium
              diner, unbuilt), but this afternoon I got something else that was nicer.

              It's not really vintage, and normally I don't like to brag, but I can't
              help
              it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15469 From: Roger Aultman Date: 11/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
              Congratulations Don, looks great.   Roger Aultman
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 8:01 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]

               

              As many of you may know, this weekend was "Trainfest" in Milwaukee,
              "America's largest operating model railroad show"

              http://www.trainfest.com/index.html

              Yours truly exhibits as part of the "Cream City Traction". I saw a few of
              you there, and some nice vintage pieces. I was going to talk about the new
              car I added to my vintage collection (a Walthers SSW Arch roof solarium
              diner, unbuilt), but this afternoon I got something else that was nicer.

              It's not really vintage, and normally I don't like to brag, but I can't
              help
              it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15470 From: jim heckard Date: 11/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
                     Congratulations on your reward. A great job.
               
                                                      Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 9:01 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]

               

              As many of you may know, this weekend was "Trainfest" in Milwaukee,
              "America's largest operating model railroad show"

              http://www.trainfest.com/index.html

              Yours truly exhibits as part of the "Cream City Traction". I saw a few of
              you there, and some nice vintage pieces. I was going to talk about the new
              car I added to my vintage collection (a Walthers SSW Arch roof solarium
              diner, unbuilt), but this afternoon I got something else that was nicer.

              It's not really vintage, and normally I don't like to brag, but I can't
              help
              it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15471 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/14/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
              Don,

              Am so happy to see that award. I didn't notice it when I visited you and Mike. Did they give that out towards the end?

              I would have stayed longer, but my back and knee were throwing some serious fits (Damp weather).

              Am having fun with my finds from TrainFest tonight too! I had just come back from near Antigo, Wisconsin on a trip for the Boy Scouts, and forgot to pack my razor, so I guess I looked a little haggard...

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Sun, 11/14/10, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
              To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, November 14, 2010, 8:01 PM

               

              As many of you may know, this weekend was "Trainfest" in Milwaukee,
              "America's largest operating model railroad show"

              http://www.trainfest.com/index.html

              Yours truly exhibits as part of the "Cream City Traction". I saw a few of
              you there, and some nice vintage pieces. I was going to talk about the new
              car I added to my vintage collection (a Walthers SSW Arch roof solarium
              diner, unbuilt), but this afternoon I got something else that was nicer.

              It's not really vintage, and normally I don't like to brag, but I can't
              help
              it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15472 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Stephen Neubaum" <computersystemrebuild@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:03 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Trainfest 2010


              Don,

              Am so happy to see that award. I didn't notice it when I visited you and
              Mike. Did they give that out towards the end?

              I would have stayed longer, but my back and knee were throwing some serious
              fits (Damp weather).

              Am having fun with my finds from TrainFest tonight too! I had just come back
              from near Antigo, Wisconsin on a trip for the Boy Scouts, and forgot to pack
              my razor, so I guess I looked a little haggard...

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Sun, 11/14/10, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:


              They handed it out about 3:00 Sunday afternoon.

              It was a good show, I'm glad you enjoyed it even if we didn't have any
              Mantua loop couplers :-) That green Varney Ranger pullamn was a good find,
              how about some photos?

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15473 From: Denny Anspach Date: 11/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
              Congratulations on the award. From what I could see of the photo, it was more than just richly deserved.

              Walthers arch roof solarium diner? I presume that this is the St. Louis-Southwestern (Cotton Belt) large windowed car. If so, this is one of the most handsome metal/wood passenger cars that Walthers ever produced, and it still can hold its own in the midst of finer-detailed contemporary productions.

              While Trainfest was going on, we had the big regional and very popular "International Railfair" (so named because the European modelers -very active here- were and still are major sponsors) at Roseville, CA. I sold about 50 or so Athearn, Varney, and early Mantua metal cars, the bulk VG or better for no more than about @$4 max, and all but a few went to a single good -happy- collector, who (thankfully) also was only one who expressed interest. Several cast metal very finely-finished MDC cars (no zincpest) went begging, and I refused to lower the price below @$8, and they will assume new secure places on my layout.

              Ancient Comet kits went for @$2. Ancient (pre war) Walthers diner and freight car (reefer) kits went begging at @$10 and $5.

              No brass moved, nor was there the slightest expressed interest, an experience shared with other brass vendors. When I first participated in this show about 15 years ago, between the set up hour f 8 am before opening, and hour of opening at 10 am, I sold more than $1000 worth of brass surplus to my needs and interest just to other dealers!

              Denny

              Denny S. Anspach, MD
              Sacramento
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15474 From: RalphB Date: 11/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Don Dellmann wrote:
              >
              > As many of you may know, this weekend was "Trainfest" in Milwaukee,
              > "America's largest operating model railroad show"
              >
              > It's not really vintage, and normally I don't like to brag, but I can't help it.
              -----------------------
              First, congratulations on the award.

              Second, how can Milwaukee's one-building show call itself "largest" when the Amherst Railway Society's annual show in (West) Springfield, Mass., in late January takes up four buildings? Even the two-building show at the New York State Fairgrounds in Syracuse the first weekend of November, with its multitude of operating layouts, might be larger.

              Just curious.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15475 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 11/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
              Denny--do you have any MDC metal cars left to dispose of? I recall there
              are three I need as at least "type examples"--UP caboose, the "economy"
              boxcar (the one with side panels and door as a unit, decal lettered) and one
              of the hoppers--I need to go out to "the basement" and check my list.
              Glenn

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
              Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 8:48 AM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trainfest 2010

              > Congratulations on the award. From what I could see of the photo, it was
              > more than just richly deserved.
              >
              > Walthers arch roof solarium diner? I presume that this is the St.
              > Louis-Southwestern (Cotton Belt) large windowed car. If so, this is one of
              > the most handsome metal/wood passenger cars that Walthers ever produced,
              > and it still can hold its own in the midst of finer-detailed contemporary
              > productions.
              >
              > While Trainfest was going on, we had the big regional and very popular
              > "International Railfair" (so named because the European modelers -very
              > active here- were and still are major sponsors) at Roseville, CA. I sold
              > about 50 or so Athearn, Varney, and early Mantua metal cars, the bulk VG
              > or better for no more than about @$4 max, and all but a few went to a
              > single good -happy- collector, who (thankfully) also was only one who
              > expressed interest. Several cast metal very finely-finished MDC cars (no
              > zincpest) went begging, and I refused to lower the price below @$8, and
              > they will assume new secure places on my layout.
              >
              > Ancient Comet kits went for @$2. Ancient (pre war) Walthers diner and
              > freight car (reefer) kits went begging at @$10 and $5.
              >
              > No brass moved, nor was there the slightest expressed interest, an
              > experience shared with other brass vendors. When I first participated in
              > this show about 15 years ago, between the set up hour f 8 am before
              > opening, and hour of opening at 10 am, I sold more than $1000 worth of
              > brass surplus to my needs and interest just to other dealers!
              >
              > Denny
              >
              > Denny S. Anspach, MD
              > Sacramento
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15476 From: hooligan Date: 11/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010 [1 Attachment]
              Congrats to Don on his award ! Denny , Sorry I couldn't make the trip , I got sick again just in time to miss the show . You're right 15 ,even 20 years ago it was a great time at this show ! No publicity doesn't help much . Next year God willing ? Henry H.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
              >
              > Congratulations on the award. From what I could see of the photo, it was more than just richly deserved.
              >
              > Walthers arch roof solarium diner? I presume that this is the St. Louis-Southwestern (Cotton Belt) large windowed car. If so, this is one of the most handsome metal/wood passenger cars that Walthers ever produced, and it still can hold its own in the midst of finer-detailed contemporary productions.
              >
              > While Trainfest was going on, we had the big regional and very popular "International Railfair" (so named because the European modelers -very active here- were and still are major sponsors) at Roseville, CA. I sold about 50 or so Athearn, Varney, and early Mantua metal cars, the bulk VG or better for no more than about @$4 max, and all but a few went to a single good -happy- collector, who (thankfully) also was only one who expressed interest. Several cast metal very finely-finished MDC cars (no zincpest) went begging, and I refused to lower the price below @$8, and they will assume new secure places on my layout.
              >
              > Ancient Comet kits went for @$2. Ancient (pre war) Walthers diner and freight car (reefer) kits went begging at @$10 and $5.
              >
              > No brass moved, nor was there the slightest expressed interest, an experience shared with other brass vendors. When I first participated in this show about 15 years ago, between the set up hour f 8 am before opening, and hour of opening at 10 am, I sold more than $1000 worth of brass surplus to my needs and interest just to other dealers!
              >
              > Denny
              >
              > Denny S. Anspach, MD
              > Sacramento
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15477 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 11:54 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trainfest 2010


              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Don Dellmann wrote:
              >>
              >> As many of you may know, this weekend was "Trainfest" in Milwaukee,
              >> "America's largest operating model railroad show"
              >>
              >> It's not really vintage, and normally I don't like to brag, but I can't
              >> help it.
              > -----------------------
              > First, congratulations on the award.
              >
              > Second, how can Milwaukee's one-building show call itself "largest" when
              > the Amherst Railway Society's annual show in (West) Springfield, Mass., in
              > late January takes up four buildings? Even the two-building show at the
              > New York State Fairgrounds in Syracuse the first weekend of November, with
              > its multitude of operating layouts, might be larger.
              >
              > Just curious.
              >
              > Ralph B

              Thank you.

              As far as Trainfest, that's their claim, not mine. We had 68 operating
              layouts, including one n-trak one that was comprised of modules from 11
              clubs. The show also hosts the HMA-MRD annual trade show, so about 60
              manufacturers were also there. As far as individuals, approximately 1800
              people participated, and we had over 23,000 paid admissions over two days.

              The exhibitor list is on the Trainfest website.
              http://www.trainfest.com/image/PDF/EXHIBITOR_LIST_TF2010.pdf

              Also, it may only be in one building, but it's one room at 200,000 square
              feet.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15478 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:48 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Trainfest 2010


              > Congratulations on the award. From what I could see of the photo, it was
              > more than just richly deserved.
              >
              > Walthers arch roof solarium diner? I presume that this is the St.
              > Louis-Southwestern (Cotton Belt) large windowed car. If so, this is one of
              > the most handsome metal/wood passenger cars that Walthers ever produced,
              > and it still can hold its own in the midst of finer-detailed contemporary
              > productions.
              >

              That's the one.

              > While Trainfest was going on, we had the big regional and very popular
              > "International Railfair" (so named because the European modelers -very
              > active here- were and still are major sponsors) at Roseville, CA. I sold
              > about 50 or so Athearn, Varney, and early Mantua metal cars, the bulk VG
              > or better for no more than about @$4 max, and all but a few went to a
              > single good -happy- collector, who (thankfully) also was only one who
              > expressed interest. Several cast metal very finely-finished MDC cars (no
              > zincpest) went begging, and I refused to lower the price below @$8, and
              > they will assume new secure places on my layout.
              >
              > Ancient Comet kits went for @$2. Ancient (pre war) Walthers diner and
              > freight car (reefer) kits went begging at @$10 and $5.
              >
              > No brass moved, nor was there the slightest expressed interest, an
              > experience shared with other brass vendors. When I first participated in
              > this show about 15 years ago, between the set up hour f 8 am before
              > opening, and hour of opening at 10 am, I sold more than $1000 worth of
              > brass surplus to my needs and interest just to other dealers!
              >
              > Denny
              >
              > Denny S. Anspach, MD
              > Sacramento

              That sounds about par for the course. Everybody is willing to spend $500 OR
              MORE for plastic from China that may or may not run by this time next year,
              but won't touch high quality, rugged, repairable and rebuildable (if needed)
              brass for half the price.

              That's why I'm into "Vintage". The Walthers kit was $20.00, You'll pay
              twice that or more if you find it in plastic, and it probably won't stay on
              the track when you try to run it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15479 From: RalphB Date: 11/16/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Ralph B
              > ...how can Milwaukee's one-building show call itself "largest" when
              > the Amherst Railway Society's annual show in (West) Springfield, Mass., in late January takes up four buildings?
              ----------------
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Don Dellmann wrote:
              >
              > As far as Trainfest, that's their claim, not mine. We had 68 operating
              > layouts...and we had over 23,000 paid admissions over two days.
              ----------------
              I checked the Amherst Railway Society's train show web site (http://www.railroadhobbyshow.com/) and, while it's not in a single building, it's over 300,000 sq ft with over 25,000 paid attendance. I didn't see a breakdown in the number of manufacturers/dealers/layouts, but the show has a lot.

              As for vintage stuff, it was great to see OK Streamliners, both HO and O, at this year's show (http://www.okengines.com/). I can remember seeing their stuff when I was just getting into the hobby. Their prices are reasonable, but I have too many passenger cars already. In fact, I'm going to try selling a few of my less desirable pieces at next month's "Great Train Extravaganza" at the Empire State Plaza in Albany.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15480 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 11/16/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
              Attendance this year at Trainfest was over 25,000.  Our N-trak layout had 10-1/2 scale miles of track and it took 25 minutes to complete a loop.
               
              Brad Smith
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15481 From: al45390 Date: 11/17/2010
              Subject: eBay listing says, "American Beauty", but ...
              For the Passenger car expert, what are these: 230551655228.

              I doubt that anything except perhaps some trucks are Am Beauty. Are the cars Walthers? JC?

              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15482 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 11/17/2010
              Subject: Re: eBay listing says, "American Beauty", but ...
              I am not an expert, but the one on the left is a Megow's. I have a couple of those myself.

              Though the pixelated photo, I identified most of the trucks as Walthers on the cars in the middle.

              -Steve Neubaum

              --- On Wed, 11/17/10, al45390 <bayerw2@...> wrote:

              From: al45390 <bayerw2@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] eBay listing says, "American Beauty", but ...
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, November 17, 2010, 8:07 AM

               

              For the Passenger car expert, what are these: 230551655228.

              I doubt that anything except perhaps some trucks are Am Beauty. Are the cars Walthers? JC?

              Walter

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15483 From: Nelson Date: 11/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Trainfest 2010
              Congrats on the award, Don. I like the vintage Mantua switcher in the foreground, too.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              > As many of you may know, this weekend was "Trainfest" in Milwaukee,
              > "America's largest operating model railroad show"
              >
              > http://www.trainfest.com/index.html
              >
              > Yours truly exhibits as part of the "Cream City Traction". I saw a few of
              > you there, and some nice vintage pieces. I was going to talk about the new
              > car I added to my vintage collection (a Walthers SSW Arch roof solarium
              > diner, unbuilt), but this afternoon I got something else that was nicer.
              >
              > It's not really vintage, and normally I don't like to brag, but I can't
              > help
              > it.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15484 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/17/2010
              Subject: What the heck is this train ???
              Attachments :
              I found this small picture of a strange streamliner on a page about
              Talgo trains.

              Found here, and the single image attached ......

              http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/11/04/meet-the-train-makers-part-3-talgo/

              the direct link to the image on-line......

              http://www.infrastructurist.com/wp-content/uploads/talgo-series-1.gif

              I don't see a direct reference on the page to this train. I think it's
              either Spanish or Italian. Perhaps an early Spanish Talgo, the first
              spanish Talgo ???

              Does anyone know more about it? Perhaps a name to use for further web-
              hunting? I'd like to find some more images of it.

              It's so odd that it would make a great and strange operating model.



              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15485 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 11/17/2010
              Subject: Re: What the heck is this train ???
              1942, Talgo, Series 1:

              http://www.talgoamerica.com/history.aspx

              "October 1942
              Talgo I tests begin between Madrid and Guadalajara Speeds of 115 km/h are reached."

              So, Spain, WWII, not very fast.

              Dave


              > I found this small picture of a strange streamliner on a page about
              > Talgo trains.
              >
              > Found here, and the single image attached ......
              >
              > http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/11/04/meet-the-train-makers-part-3-talgo/
              >
              > the direct link to the image on-line......
              >
              > http://www.infrastructurist.com/wp-content/uploads/talgo-series-1.gif
              >
              > I don't see a direct reference on the page to this train. I think it's
              > either Spanish or Italian. Perhaps an early Spanish Talgo, the first
              > spanish Talgo ???
              >
              > Does anyone know more about it? Perhaps a name to use for further web-
              > hunting? I'd like to find some more images of it.
              >
              > It's so odd that it would make a great and strange operating model.
              >
              >
              >
              > Best to ya,
              > Mike Bauers
              > Milwaukee, Wi
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15486 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/17/2010
              Subject: Re: What the heck is this train ???
              Thank You, Dave,

              8^)

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              On Nov 17, 2010, at 4:48 PM, trainsnwrcs wrote:

              >
              > 1942, Talgo, Series 1:
              >
              > http://www.talgoamerica.com/history.aspx
              >
              > "October 1942
              > Talgo I tests begin between Madrid and Guadalajara Speeds of 115 km/
              > h are reached."
              >
              > So, Spain, WWII, not very fast.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              >> I found this small picture of a strange streamliner on a page about
              >> Talgo trains.
              >>
              >> Found here, and the single image attached ......
              >>
              >> http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/11/04/meet-the-train-makers-part-3-talgo/
              >>
              >> the direct link to the image on-line......
              >>
              >> http://www.infrastructurist.com/wp-content/uploads/talgo-series-1.gif
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15487 From: Rick Jones Date: 11/17/2010
              Subject: Re: What the heck is this train ??? [1 Attachment]
              On 11/17/2010 4:37 PM, Mike Bauers wrote:
              > I found this small picture of a strange streamliner on a page about
              > Talgo trains.
              >
              > Found here, and the single image attached ......
              >
              > http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/11/04/meet-the-train-makers-part-3-talgo/
              >
              > the direct link to the image on-line......
              >
              > http://www.infrastructurist.com/wp-content/uploads/talgo-series-1.gif
              >
              > I don't see a direct reference on the page to this train. I think it's
              > either Spanish or Italian. Perhaps an early Spanish Talgo, the first
              > spanish Talgo ???

              At a guess I'd think that it's one of the gauge-changing trains
              referenced in the paragraph just below the photo on that page.

              --

              Rick Jones

              If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never
              tried before.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15488 From: John H Date: 11/18/2010
              Subject: Re: What the heck is this train ???
              I don't know what it is either but it has a nice smile.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
              >
              > I found this small picture of a strange streamliner on a page about
              > Talgo trains.
              >
              > Found here, and the single image attached ......
              >
              > http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/11/04/meet-the-train-makers-part-3-talgo/
              >
              > the direct link to the image on-line......
              >
              > http://www.infrastructurist.com/wp-content/uploads/talgo-series-1.gif
              >
              > I don't see a direct reference on the page to this train. I think it's
              > either Spanish or Italian. Perhaps an early Spanish Talgo, the first
              > spanish Talgo ???
              >
              > Does anyone know more about it? Perhaps a name to use for further web-
              > hunting? I'd like to find some more images of it.
              >
              > It's so odd that it would make a great and strange operating model.
              >
              >
              >
              > Best to ya,
              > Mike Bauers
              > Milwaukee, Wi
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15489 From: jim heckard Date: 11/18/2010
              Subject: Further Conover Progress
               

               
                         A little further progress for my Conover S-1. After finding some small original parts I was able to get the pilot / cow catcher added to the frame. Seems odd that an all bronze engine had a cast lead part but that is what the Conover catalog says it should be. Was able to put stanchions / handrail on the front of the boiler / smoke box door. Drilled and tapped through the frame / steam chest / boiler to attach front all together.
               
                   Assembled the parts for the trailing truck. Had to solder the sideframes to the hitch as they have to be bent to shape to accept the set of trailing truck wheels. Put one set of window frames in the cab windows. Added a little brass block at the back top of the frame to level boiler / cab to the frame. Now must make a small piece to attach to the frame inside the cab that will allow me to drill and tap a hole on the bottom back of the cab to screw and hold back end of the boiler.
               
                   Next area will be getting the original one piece side rods attached to the drivers and getting the main rods ready for when I find the original valve gear or a similar Baker type valve gear. Still looking for the tender trucks but a friend in Ca called to let me know he is sending a set he thinks are original along with some other small detail parts he found. As a back up member Sean Naylor has a similar brass set of trucks to send to me.
               
                  Every original part I can find just makes the finished project a nicer fit for my vintage collection.
               
                                                  Jim H
               
                
               
                                                                                                     Jim H 
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15490 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Further Conover Progress [2 Attachments]
              Jim,

              It's looking better all the time. Really looking like a million bucks.
              Even if you were never to find any other needed parts -- and I'm sure hoping
              you do -- it would still be among any of the finest models you could display,
              just as it is.

              I noticed you drilled for the handrail stanchions, unless I'm just seeing
              the manufacturers "dimples" for where they supposed to be drilled, but as
              we're coming to know Conover I doubt that's what they are.

              As for specialty hardware, does it look like perhaps you could use Varney
              Main Crank Pins (#1685) in the main set of drivers, to take the return cranks
              -- maybe even Varney too if you can't locate Conover.

              Sounds like bending the trailing truck sideframes may have been a little
              hairy; too much bend and the wheelset binds up, too little bend and there's
              too much slop. How did you go about bending them, did you shape them over a
              piece of copper pipe or something?

              Yeah, as for a cast lead pilot on an otherwise all-bronze model, it's like
              asking why did John Tyler use lead pilots, boiler fronts and steam chests on
              his formed brass engines or why Varney used an aluminum boiler for his
              first Yellowstone. Hard to figure that one.

              Ray


              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15491 From: jim heckard Date: 11/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Further Conover Progress
              Hi Ray,
               
                         Making good head way but still a long way to go. I have time to still look and hope for missing parts. Luckily other then the valve gear and tender trucks it's all small detail pieces.
               
                        I do have the boiler drilled for the stanchions. The casting had a small mark where they go but I had to drill them out. No biggy. While I was careful to get a straight line and same angle when the stanchions are in it is easy to tap them slightly one way or the other if not perfect. I have been doing different things a little piece meal so I don't get bored working on one thing to long.
               
                 I just received the two solid one piece original side rods and got them cleaned up. Not smooth castings. I have to check out exactly what lengths of hardware I will need to attach. Since these main rods are a little thicker then Mantua but probably near the same as Varney will mean a trial and error period. Even adding the main rods will be the same. Nothing I saw on the drawings or in the little catalog tell you lengths. This and the valve gear will have to be " engineered " shall we say. Limited information to go on since nothing pre drilled.
               
                Assembling the trailing truck not that hard. This bronze or alloy is not to hard to bend but still seems to be strong. Once I had the side frames drilled for the wheels and soldered I just took a pair of pliers, judged where they should be bent and slowly bent them till wheels moved without bindings. It wasn't near as bad as I though it might be.I was most afraid of breaking them but you can go back and forth a little if needed.
               
                If it wasn't for your little catalog I would have never known what material the original pilot was. When I got it I thought it was the wrong one.
               
                                                                  Happy Thanksgiving,
                                                                          Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 9:07 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Further Conover Progress

               

              Jim,

              It's looking better all the time. Really looking like a million bucks.
              Even if you were never to find any other needed parts -- and I'm sure hoping
              you do -- it would still be among any of the finest models you could display,
              just as it is.

              I noticed you drilled for the handrail stanchions, unless I'm just seeing
              the manufacturers "dimples" for where they supposed to be drilled, but as
              we're coming to know Conover I doubt that's what they are.

              As for specialty hardware, does it look like perhaps you could use Varney
              Main Crank Pins (#1685) in the main set of drivers, to take the return cranks
              -- maybe even Varney too if you can't locate Conover.

              Sounds like bending the trailing truck sideframes may have been a little
              hairy; too much bend and the wheelset binds up, too little bend and there's
              too much slop. How did you go about bending them, did you shape them over a
              piece of copper pipe or something?

              Yeah, as for a cast lead pilot on an otherwise all-bronze model, it's like
              asking why did John Tyler use lead pilots, boiler fronts and steam chests on
              his formed brass engines or why Varney used an aluminum boiler for his
              first Yellowstone. Hard to figure that one.

              Ray

              </HTML>

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15492 From: jim heckard Date: 11/19/2010
              Subject: For Sale
               

               
              To all members,
               
                        Not sure if anyone out there is interested in other gauges than HO.
               
                  A lady has dropped of a box of N Gauge items and O Gauge ( mostly Lionel.) asking to sell them for her.  I don't deal with these gauges and know nothing about their value and don' t feel like checking each piece out. The lady would like a "fair" return on the items. The items are mostly all mint or near mint. Nothing is vintage . All are newer made items.
               
                 N Gauge items include a Hallmark brass diesel, a number of Atlas engines and a few cars. Life Like engines and cars, some odd cars and nickel silver track. All engines and cars in O/B or clear plastic container.
               
                 O gauge items are still mostly in plastic wrappings / clear plastic covers but the boxes are damp and bent. Included are a number of box cars, a flat car with Caterpillar Tractor load, a  Dodge Ram Track Inspection vehicle and an unassembled windmill kit ( really neat )..
               
                  I have an N gauge list ready and am I preparing the O gauge list. If anyone is interested contact me off line at    jimheck@...  and I will send a list for the N gauge and one for O gauge.
               
               
                                                                   Jim H
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15493 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/22/2010
              Subject: Old Metal
              I just won a never assembled Metal Athearn RDC coach.

              Poor thing is a little rusty, looks like I'll be vapor blasting it to
              clean up the rust. I'll use one of those small air-erasers on her.
              Maybe I'll put new motors in her............. I have two more in the
              closet to restore as well.

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15494 From: corlissbs@aol.com Date: 11/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Old Metal
              I ended up having mine chrome plated.  The motor is really bad.
               
              Brad Smith
               
              In a message dated 11/22/2010 6:33:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:
               

              I just won a never assembled Metal Athearn RDC coach.

              Poor thing is a little rusty, looks like I'll be vapor blasting it to
              clean up the rust. I'll use one of those small air-erasers on her.
              Maybe I'll put new motors in her............. I have two more in the
              closet to restore as well.

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15495 From: David J. Starr Date: 11/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Old Metal
              On 11/22/2010 9:08 AM, corlissbs@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > I ended up having mine chrome plated. The motor is really bad.
              > Brad Smith
              > In a message dated 11/22/2010 6:33:52 A.M. Central Standard Time,
              > mwbauers55@... writes:
              >
              > I just won a never assembled Metal Athearn RDC coach.
              >
              > Poor thing is a little rusty, looks like I'll be vapor blasting it to
              > clean up the rust. I'll use one of those small air-erasers on her.
              > Maybe I'll put new motors in her............. I have two more in the
              > closet to restore as well.
              >
              > Best to ya,
              > Mike Bauers
              > Milwaukee, Wi
              >
              >
              >
              I have a few of them picked up at a train show some time ago. I was
              going to paint them up for the MBTA and pull them behind an F unit, also
              in T colors. The T ran them as plain coaches for years after the
              underfloor engines died.

              --
              David J. Starr

              Blog: http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15496 From: Walter Bayer II Date: 11/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Old Metal
              I had one too when they first came out. IMHO the motors were a failed experiment. Perhaps a few of you out there had better luck, but I have never run into anyone who did. I think the shell of mine is still around, ... somewhere.
              Walter

              On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:08 AM, <corlissbs@...> wrote:
               

              I ended up having mine chrome plated.  The motor is really bad.
               
              Brad Smith
               
              In a message dated 11/22/2010 6:33:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:
               

              I just won a never assembled Metal Athearn RDC coach.

              Poor thing is a little rusty, looks like I'll be vapor blasting it to
              clean up the rust. I'll use one of those small air-erasers on her.
              Maybe I'll put new motors in her............. I have two more in the
              closet to restore as well.

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi




              --
              Regards,
              Walter
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15497 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 11/22/2010
              Subject: Re: Old Metal
              I'd like to find a good motor that would fit as a replacement .gj

               
              Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:08 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Metal

              I ended up having mine chrome plated.  The motor is really bad.
               
              Brad Smith
               
              In a message dated 11/22/2010 6:33:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:
               

              I just won a never assembled Metal Athearn RDC coach.

              Poor thing is a little rusty, looks like I'll be vapor blasting it to
              clean up the rust. I'll use one of those small air-erasers on her.
              Maybe I'll put new motors in her............. I have two more in the
              closet to restore as well.

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15498 From: RalphB Date: 11/22/2010
              Subject: Hobbytown of Boston on eBay
              There are a couple of lots on eBay that I'm looking at right now:
              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220698567416&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              and
              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220698567513&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

              I hope I'm not bidding against anyone on this list, in which case I'd be willing to discuss a deal.

              I have two of the Hobbytown plasic RS-3/RSD-4 bodies that will go with the former; maybe they'll work with the latter.

              If no one expresses an interest, I'll be off on my own. I do want at least the former if not both.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15499 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston on eBay
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 11:13 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbytown of Boston on eBay


              > There are a couple of lots on eBay that I'm looking at right now:
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220698567416&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              > and
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220698567513&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
              >
              > I hope I'm not bidding against anyone on this list, in which case I'd be
              > willing to discuss a deal.
              >
              > I have two of the Hobbytown plasic RS-3/RSD-4 bodies that will go with the
              > former; maybe they'll work with the latter.
              >
              > If no one expresses an interest, I'll be off on my own. I do want at
              > least the former if not both.
              >
              > Ralph B

              4 RS-3's and only one cab between them. :-(

              I'm in the same situation you are, I have one plastic dummy with no drive.
              I've been kind of watching for one or two spuds or NWSL PDT's to put under
              it.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15500 From: Mike Bauers Date: 11/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Old Metal
              On Nov 22, 2010, at 8:08 AM, corlissbs@... wrote:

              >
              >
              > I ended up having mine chrome plated. The motor is really bad.
              >
              > Brad Smith

              I like that idea!

              The thought that first came to my mind was vapor blast, then high-
              shine car wax them.

              I'll keep that chrome plate option in mind if I don't like the results
              of the waxing.

              Thanks!

              Best to ya,
              Mike Bauers
              Milwaukee, Wi


              >
              > In a message dated 11/22/2010 6:33:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, mwbauers55@...
              > writes:
              > I just won a never assembled Metal Athearn RDC coach.
              >
              > Poor thing is a little rusty, looks like I'll be vapor blasting it to
              > clean up the rust. I'll use one of those small air-erasers on her.
              > Maybe I'll put new motors in her............. I have two more in the
              > closet to restore as well.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15501 From: RalphB Date: 11/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston on eBay
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Don Dellmann wrote:
              >
              > I have one plastic dummy with no drive.
              > I've been kind of watching for one or two spuds or NWSL PDT's to put under
              > it.
              --------------------
              A few years ago I was at the Springfield (Mass) train show and a gentleman was there from Hobbytown of Boston; thinking about it later, it may well have been Howard Mosley, the owner of Bear Locomotive down in New Jersey and the last person to manufacture HoB locomotive kits and parts. At the time I asked if he had any parts for the plastic-bodied RS-3 and he said no. That may have been one of his final appearances at a train show; I know I never saw him at Springfield again.

              The Hobbytown of Boston inventory and tooling were put up for sale in late 2006/early 2007, but there were apparently no buyers. :-(

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15502 From: jim heckard Date: 11/24/2010
              Subject: Gooble Gooble
                  
               
                    To All,
               
               
                                HAPPY THANKSGIVING
               
               
                                                               Jim Heckard
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15503 From: jim heckard Date: 11/24/2010
              Subject: Conover baby step
               

               
              Hi Ray F W , All,
               
                  A little move forward to hopefully completing my pre war Conover engine. Pictures will show the walk ways above the cylinder installed. While this might look like an easy thing requiring little time you must remember some things. There was no pre made pre drilled parts ( walkways ) that were even marked for on the cylinder and  plus having no dimensions listed but still made to match the original plans .
               
                  Trying to assemble it is also a little harder then just putting screw A into hole B. You have to keep everything  horizontal both from the side and front along with being level with the other parts  plus square with the boiler from above and still have it all in line with the nubs on the boiler to center the cylinder to boiler steam pipes..This means disassembling and assembling everything a few times to make corrections.
               
                 This is why I like to take MACRO pictures that make it easier to see things not quite right.
               
                 As to the screws not being brass I agree they should have been but actually not to concerned. Since I had to "body putty" some low or not cast right areas leaving dark spots these screws don't look real bad.  ( If this project was soldered together like the originals from 1938 you would notice those areas too.). If eventually painted no problem.
               
                  I still feel that this is the hardest engine I have ever tried to put back to as close to original other then the Winton Allegheny( and maybe the Winton Berk ). At least the Winton engines had a big plus in the many sheets of plans which were large with dimensional data documented. Something I haven't found for the Conover.
               
               
               
                                                                                  Jim H
               
                 
               
               
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15504 From: al45390 Date: 11/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover baby step
              I can't speak for others, but, so far as I am concerned, "Keep 'em coming". I look forward to each and every installment of your Conover saga.

              Regards, & Happy Thanksgiving,
              Walter

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Ray F W , All,
              >
              > A little move forward to hopefully completing my pre war Conover engine. Pictures will show the walk ways above the cylinder installed. While this might look like an easy thing requiring little time you must remember some things. There was no pre made pre drilled parts ( walkways ) that were even marked for on the cylinder and plus having no dimensions listed but still made to match the original plans .
              >
              > Trying to assemble it is also a little harder then just putting screw A into hole B. You have to keep everything horizontal both from the side and front along with being level with the other parts plus square with the boiler from above and still have it all in line with the nubs on the boiler to center the cylinder to boiler steam pipes..This means disassembling and assembling everything a few times to make corrections.
              >
              > This is why I like to take MACRO pictures that make it easier to see things not quite right.
              >
              > As to the screws not being brass I agree they should have been but actually not to concerned. Since I had to "body putty" some low or not cast right areas leaving dark spots these screws don't look real bad. ( If this project was soldered together like the originals from 1938 you would notice those areas too.). If eventually painted no problem.
              >
              > I still feel that this is the hardest engine I have ever tried to put back to as close to original other then the Winton Allegheny( and maybe the Winton Berk ). At least the Winton engines had a big plus in the many sheets of plans which were large with dimensional data documented. Something I haven't found for the Conover.
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15505 From: Jay Date: 11/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston on eBay
              Hi Ralph B.

              Yes, your recollection is correct, that was Howard Mosely at the Springfield show a few years back. He still sells some interesting railroad items through eBay and is a member here who occasionally posts (Hi Howard!).

              Although the very informative Bear Locomotive website is no longer an active website, you can find all of it through searching the Internet Archive through their "Wayback Machine." I think I posted the links here a while back and will try to look them up and post again on Friday.

              On the site, Howard mentioned the limited production special narrow frame drive chassis that hobbytown manufactured specifically for powering the plastic RS-3 kits in the late 1950's. In my opinion, they are well worth looking for to power your plastic model and do show up on eBay and at shows occasionally. They were made in both four and six axle versions, and one was upgraded during production. I will also look up the kit #'s, and will post on Friday.

              Meanwhile, I have photos of both the six axle and four axle narrow chassis hobbytown of Boston drive chassis on my album here, Plainsman's Picks, photos 13 and 14.

              W Jay W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Don Dellmann wrote:
              > >
              > > I have one plastic dummy with no drive.
              > > I've been kind of watching for one or two spuds or NWSL PDT's to put under
              > > it.
              > --------------------
              > A few years ago I was at the Springfield (Mass) train show and a gentleman was there from Hobbytown of Boston; thinking about it later, it may well have been Howard Mosley, the owner of Bear Locomotive down in New Jersey and the last person to manufacture HoB locomotive kits and parts. At the time I asked if he had any parts for the plastic-bodied RS-3 and he said no. That may have been one of his final appearances at a train show; I know I never saw him at Springfield again.
              >
              > The Hobbytown of Boston inventory and tooling were put up for sale in late 2006/early 2007, but there were apparently no buyers. :-(
              >
              > Ralph B
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15506 From: Jay Date: 11/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover baby step
              Hi Jim H., Have been following this great project step by step, every few days when I am able to sign on. I just had the thought that this project is perhaps even more difficult than if you scratchbuilt the locomotive, in that you would not have had to adapt your efforts to a set design of someone else's doing. This is truly a credit to your own craftsmanship and your perseverence in building a legacy vintage model.
              W Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Ray F W , All,
              >
              > A little move forward to hopefully completing my pre war Conover engine. Pictures will show the walk ways above the cylinder installed. While this might look like an easy thing requiring little time you must remember some things. There was no pre made pre drilled parts ( walkways ) that were even marked for on the cylinder and plus having no dimensions listed but still made to match the original plans .
              >
              > Trying to assemble it is also a little harder then just putting screw A into hole B. You have to keep everything horizontal both from the side and front along with being level with the other parts plus square with the boiler from above and still have it all in line with the nubs on the boiler to center the cylinder to boiler steam pipes..This means disassembling and assembling everything a few times to make corrections.
              >
              > This is why I like to take MACRO pictures that make it easier to see things not quite right.
              >
              > As to the screws not being brass I agree they should have been but actually not to concerned. Since I had to "body putty" some low or not cast right areas leaving dark spots these screws don't look real bad. ( If this project was soldered together like the originals from 1938 you would notice those areas too.). If eventually painted no problem.
              >
              > I still feel that this is the hardest engine I have ever tried to put back to as close to original other then the Winton Allegheny( and maybe the Winton Berk ). At least the Winton engines had a big plus in the many sheets of plans which were large with dimensional data documented. Something I haven't found for the Conover.
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15507 From: Jay Date: 11/24/2010
              Subject: Turkey Day Wishes
              Wishing you all a great Thanksgiving holiday and weekend and good luck in finding that elusive model on eBay or at the next show! W. Jay W.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15508 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Gooble Gooble
              Right back at you, Jim --

              Have a Happy Thanksgiving to you and everyone on board!

              Ray Wetzel
              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15509 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 11/25/2010
              Subject: Happy Thanksgiving, Fellow Vintage modelers!

              To all my friends and fellow posters,


              A most Happy Thanksgiving from me(Fred Hultberg)and the Seven-Sided Puzzle Factory(Fotocut®) !


              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut®)


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15510 From: jim heckard Date: 11/26/2010
              Subject: With luck right parts
              Attachments :
               
               
               
              Hi Ray F W, All,
               
               
                   It looks like a little perseverance and luck might have paid off. Just like I am still trying to find the original valve gear for my Conover engine I think I have found the tender truck side frames I need. While I will have to create the cross pieces, which means more work, I am happy to have these along with the previous one piece side rods I found..
               
                  All I have to go on is to compare them to the set of drawings I have. The little picture of the trucks in the catalog is not helpful as it is a top view picture but I'm pretty sure they are right.
               
                   To W Jay W      Glad to hear from you and know you can tune in once in a while.
               
                                         Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15512 From: Don Dellmann Date: 11/27/2010
              Subject: Re: (unknown)
              Don't click on the link, looks someone's address book was hijacked.

              Don

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "James Bartelt" <jimbartelt@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15513 From: Tertius Coetzee Date: 11/28/2010
              Subject: SHAY PROMOTIONAL CABOOSES
              Greetings from Sunny South Africa,
               
              Your assistance in providing background information on HO MDC Roundhouse Cabooses decorated with advertisements for Lima geared locomotives, will be much appreciated.
               
              Did these cabooses exist in real life? Did they ply the logging lines in search of sales?
               
              When were these models produced and are they still currently available in modelshops or only in places such as Ebay? See Ebay item 150523956209.
               
              I look forward to your informed responses.
               
              Kind regards
               
               
               
              Tertius Coetzee
              Port Elizabeth  
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15514 From: Howard R Garner Date: 11/28/2010
              Subject: Re: SHAY PROMOTIONAL CABOOSES
              Pure fantasy.
              Available only on the used/resell market

              Howard Garner
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15515 From: Sean Naylor Date: 11/29/2010
              Subject: Re: With luck right parts [1 Attachment]
              That's awesome Jim!
               

               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, November 26, 2010 3:28:30 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] With luck right parts [1 Attachment]

               

               
               
               
              Hi Ray F W, All,
               
               
                   It looks like a little perseverance and luck might have paid off. Just like I am still trying to find the original valve gear for my Conover engine I think I have found the tender truck side frames I need. While I will have to create the cross pieces, which means more work, I am happy to have these along with the previous one piece side rods I found..
               
                  All I have to go on is to compare them to the set of drawings I have. The little picture of the trucks in the catalog is not helpful as it is a top view picture but I'm pretty sure they are right.
               
                   To W Jay W      Glad to hear from you and know you can tune in once in a while.
               
                                         Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15516 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 11/29/2010
              Subject: Re: With luck right parts
              Jim,

              Well, at least you have the Conover drawings to help you with making the
              braces for the rest of the tender trucks. Not the easiest thing to fabricate
              stuff, but it helps when you have something to copy from. A press-break,
              like what Northwest Shortline used to sell might help, unless you already have
              one.

              Ray F. W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15517 From: jim heckard Date: 11/29/2010
              Subject: Conover Problem and Fix ???
               
              Hi Ray F W ,
               
                  You are right in your assessment that it won't be easy to construct the tender trucks just using the side frames. I'm more worried about how they will fit. Read the text below and look at the pictures to see why just using something in the mean time has shown me something needs to be corrected. Remember this if you build one.
               
                 I have figured out how I will correct the problem as every real B&O "Big Six" was not the same. I have found a picture of B&O 513 that shows the walkway mounted low on the cylinders and a big gap / step from the boiler walk way.
               
                  This engine is close to the Conover plans as it uses no ladders from the pilot to the cylinder walk ways but has a step added to that cylinder walk way to step down to the pilot. I am thinking of adding one step from the cast on boiler walk ways to get down to the cylinder walk way. These steps will allow the distances to be " normal ", follow a prototype ( B&O 513 ) while following the plans and still let you take apart the frame , cylinders and boiler easily.
               
                                                                    Jim H
               
               
                                                       
               
                     I ran into a problem I didn't expect to have. To correct it has made another problem. Let me try to explain.
               
                  Having only some drawings to go by to build this pre war Conover kit and not being exactly scale ( but close ) I had added the walk ways, above the cylinder, height wise as per the drawing ( 3rd picture left hand side.) While I had done this I was waiting for some original tender truck side frames so I could finish off the tender sans some small detail. Meanwhile the boiler sat on the frame with these walkways at a nice height in relationship to the other cast on walk ways .
               
                 In the mean time I created a pair of tender trucks from a Mantua tender until I can get the original side frames mounted to use on the tender. When I mounted the interim tender trucks I noticed the tender sat higher then the engine cab which is kind of made to fit into the notch-like part of the tender ( as per actual pictures HH sent of a "Big Six"). After studying ways to "even " the engine and tender out I realized I couldn't do anything to lower there tender. I had to raise the boiler on the frame. I created a 5/32 " block of epoxy on the top of the cylinder where the boiler sits and at the back where the cab rides on the frame to get the engine UP to the height needed to match the tender and the picture of the actual engine. ( Nothing in the rough drawings shows any dimensions as to how high the engine or tender should be except to measure the drawing for the engine and drawing of the tender. No where does the drawings show the engine \ tender in the same drawing ) .
               
                 This added the needed height to even the engine with the tender. However it has made a big step down gap from the cast on boiler walk way to the cylinder walk way.  ( now check out how high the cylinder walk way is mounted on the real " Big Six"  3rd picture, right side.).
               
                 If I had known I was going to raise the overall height of the engine I would have added the cylinder walk ways after the fact and higher as the real picture shows not as the drawing for the model shows. Now I have to leave this noticeably big step or rip apart the cylinder walk ways and make them higher to match the real " Big Six" picture.
               
                 Just goes to show.  Do you follow the limited drawings for the original model or build as per the real thing.
               
                                                           Jim H
               
               .
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15518 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 11/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover Problem and Fix ??? [3 Attachments]
              You have just experienced something that all locomotive model builders who add detail to locos must learn...  No two locos are exactly alike after they have been in use for a while.  The same loco may not display all details exactly the same location one time after another.  Shop repairs, rebuilding and minor repairs are done to keep the loco in service and shop crews do it the best possible way involving time and materials so things get moved around even on the same loco one time after another.  Just look at photos and then install in a likely place.  You are doing a good job.  Looks better all the time.

              Don Staton in VA.
              ====================================================================================================== 


              On 11/29/2010 4:39 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               
              Hi Ray F W ,
               
                  You are right in your assessment that it won't be easy to construct the tender trucks just using the side frames. I'm more worried about how they will fit. Read the text below and look at the pictures to see why just using something in the mean time has shown me something needs to be corrected. Remember this if you build one.
               
                 I have figured out how I will correct the problem as every real B&O "Big Six" was not the same. I have found a picture of B&O 513 that shows the walkway mounted low on the cylinders and a big gap / step from the boiler walk way.
               
                  This engine is close to the Conover plans as it uses no ladders from the pilot to the cylinder walk ways but has a step added to that cylinder walk way to step down to the pilot. I am thinking of adding one step from the cast on boiler walk ways to get down to the cylinder walk way. These steps will allow the distances to be " normal ", follow a prototype ( B&O 513 ) while following the plans and still let you take apart the frame , cylinders and boiler easily.
               
                                                                    Jim H
               
               
                                                       
               
                     I ran into a problem I didn't expect to have. To correct it has made another problem. Let me try to explain.
               
                  Having only some drawings to go by to build this pre war Conover kit and not being exactly scale ( but close ) I had added the walk ways, above the cylinder, height wise as per the drawing ( 3rd picture left hand side.) While I had done this I was waiting for some original tender truck side frames so I could finish off the tender sans some small detail. Meanwhile the boiler sat on the frame with these walkways at a nice height in relationship to the other cast on walk ways .
               
                 In the mean time I created a pair of tender trucks from a Mantua tender until I can get the original side frames mounted to use on the tender. When I mounted the interim tender trucks I noticed the tender sat higher then the engine cab which is kind of made to fit into the notch-like part of the tender ( as per actual pictures HH sent of a "Big Six"). After studying ways to "even " the engine and tender out I realized I couldn't do anything to lower there tender. I had to raise the boiler on the frame. I created a 5/32 " block of epoxy on the top of the cylinder where the boiler sits and at the back where the cab rides on the frame to get the engine UP to the height needed to match the tender and the picture of the actual engine. ( Nothing in the rough drawings shows any dimensions as to how high the engine or tender should be except to measure the drawing for the engine and drawing of the tender. No where does the drawings show the engine \ tender in the same drawing ) .
               
                 This added the needed height to even the engine with the tender. However it has made a big step down gap from the cast on boiler walk way to the cylinder walk way.  ( now check out how high the cylinder walk way is mounted on the real " Big Six"  3rd picture, right side.).
               
                 If I had known I was going to raise the overall height of the engine I would have added the cylinder walk ways after the fact and higher as the real picture shows not as the drawing for the model shows. Now I have to leave this noticeably big step or rip apart the cylinder walk ways and make them higher to match the real " Big Six" picture.
               
                 Just goes to show.  Do you follow the limited drawings for the original model or build as per the real thing.
               
                                                           Jim H
               
               .
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15519 From: jim heckard Date: 11/29/2010
              Subject: Conover Problem and Fix ???
               

                 Don S,
               
                       Thanks for the comments. They are appreciated. My focus has to be on building a MODEL of the Conover pre war B&O 2-10-2 kit as it should be but lacking good original drawings or diagrams for it. Having only ever seen 2 other completed models ( minus some of the details ) and one being a picture which is not a close up and it having no tender causes me to look at a real engine for ideas.
               
                 However the word plausible also comes to mind. If I was working from good information concerning the model or had a completely built model to go by I wouldn't deter from that path but here I need to make it look right also.  If I didn't make changes the tender would kind of dwarf the engine, even look to big or out of scale for the engine. By correcting the engine / tender height relationship I now must make this large gap I created look right.
               
                  The large gaps between walk ways would not look normal if I don't. ( Imagine a scale person trying to jump that scale gap ) Now with the picture of 6146 just sent me and 513 previously sent I can make things " plausible"  by the addition of little steps in the two places I mentioned and I still can be true to both the Conover kit and a real engine and this satisfies me. In addition the ability to assemble and reassemble the frame, cylinder and boiler easily is an added plus.
               
                  That is what makes these Yahoo sites great. The ability to ask others opinions, take them into consideration and go from there.
               
                                      Jim H
               
                 
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: lnnrr
              Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 4:15 PM
              Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Re: Conover Problem

               

              Jim, As I see it, you have a special focus. I and lots of other people would be looking at prototype dimensions and trying to build
              a model of a B&O locomotive.
              But you are special. And I don't mean that in a mean way. You are
              creating not a model of a prototype but creating a model to show
              HO model railroading as it was in the 1930's.
              That is a whole different game. You started off to build a Conover
              model as best you could from the Conover kit. I'm going to urge
              you to step back, lay your tools down, and focus.
              If you want a B&O model, there are better places to start. You've come
              this far on a Conover project. If you intend to stick with Conover,
              let the plans over rule the prototype where they differ.
              When you are finished, do you want to say this is a Conover model?
              Or want to say this is what an improved Conover could have been?
              I've had my say. Think about where YOU and only you want to go with it.
              Best wishes and thanks for keeping us all in the loop.
              Chuck Peck

              --- In yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi HH, All,
              >
              > I ran into a problem I didn't expect to have. To correct it has made another problem. Let me try to explain.
              >
              > Having only some drawings to go by to build this pre war Conover kit and not being exactly scale ( but close ) I had added the walk ways, above the cylinder, height wise as per the drawing ( 3rd picture left hand side.) While I had done this I was waiting for some original tender truck side frames so I could finish off the tender sans some small detail. Meanwhile the boiler sat on the frame with these walkways at a nice height in relationship to the other cast on walk ways .
              >
              > In the mean time I created a pair of tender trucks from a Mantua tender until I can get the original side frames mounted to use on the tender. When I mounted the interim tender trucks I noticed the tender sat higher then the engine cab which is kind of made to fit into the notch-like part of the tender ( as per actual pictures HH sent of a "Big Six"). After studying ways to "even " the engine and tender out I realized I couldn't do anything to lower there tender. I had to raise the boiler on the frame. I created a 5/32 " block of epoxy on the top of the cylinder where the boiler sits and at the back where the cab rides on the frame to get the engine UP to the height needed to match the tender and the picture of the actual engine. ( Nothing in the rough drawings shows any dimensions as to how high the engine or tender should be except to measure the drawing for the engine and drawing of the tender. No where does the drawings show the engine \ tender in the same drawing ) .
              >
              > This added the needed height to even the engine with the tender. However it has made a big step down gap from the cast on boiler walk way to the cylinder walk way. ( now check out how high the cylinder walk way is mounted on the real " Big Six" 3rd picture, right side.).
              >
              > If I had known I was going to raise the overall height of the engine I would have added the cylinder walk ways after the fact and higher as the real picture shows not as the drawing for the model shows. Now I have to leave this noticeably big step or rip apart the cylinder walk ways and make them higher to match the real " Big Six" picture.
              >
              > Just goes to show. Do you follow the limited drawings for the original model or build as per the real thing. ( HH Don't put these in the album )
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              > .
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15520 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 11/29/2010
              Subject: Re: With luck right parts
              You might check with Bowser--they have stopped producing steam loco kits,
              but youi might see if they still have parts--with a catalog page showing the
              valve gear parts you might be able to get what you need. Keep in mind that
              most of their locos were PRR prototypes, so you might be able to figure out
              the dimensions of the available parts and select a "valve gear kit" to suit.
              Also, I think Rivarossi made the B&0 2-10-2--so that might be another
              possibility.gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: <erieberk@...>
              Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 11:34 AM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] With luck right parts

              > Jim,
              >
              > Well, at least you have the Conover drawings to help you with making the
              > braces for the rest of the tender trucks. Not the easiest thing to
              > fabricate
              > stuff, but it helps when you have something to copy from. A press-break,
              > like what Northwest Shortline used to sell might help, unless you already
              > have
              > one.
              >
              > Ray F. W.</HTML>
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15521 From: RalphB Date: 11/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Hobbytown of Boston on eBay
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, I wrote:
              >
              > There are a couple of lots on eBay that I'm looking at right now....
              >
              > I have two of the Hobbytown plasic RS-3/RSD-4 bodies that will go with the former; maybe they'll work with the latter.
              >
              ------------------
              Well, I won both lots. The first has all the makings for an RSD-4: a plastic body and a complete mechanism. It also included a second 3-piece RS-3 body, but without walkway (with handrails) or trucks.

              The second lot is really interesting. It included a metal RS-3 body, but without the cab, and a bunch of pieces that I've mostly been able to identify using data sheets found on HOSeeker.

              A couple of pieces, however, still remain unidentified. I'll try to post a photo of these, along with a list of extra pieces I have, tomorrow. Right now it's time for dinner, and then I have a Boy Scout troop committee meeting.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15522 From: Nelson Date: 11/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover Problem and Fix ???
              Jim,

              It's not just the walkways that look to high now, because the entire boiler looks like it's riding too high above the drivers, frame, and trailing truck to me. Assuming the kit was properly designed to begin with, is it possible that the tender sat lower on the original trucks? Maybe the Conover truck bolsters were lower slung than the Mantuas?

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Don S,
              >
              > Thanks for the comments. They are appreciated. My focus has to be on building a MODEL of the Conover pre war B&O 2-10-2 kit as it should be but lacking good original drawings or diagrams for it. Having only ever seen 2 other completed models ( minus some of the details ) and one being a picture which is not a close up and it having no tender causes me to look at a real engine for ideas.
              >
              > However the word plausible also comes to mind. If I was working from good information concerning the model or had a completely built model to go by I wouldn't deter from that path but here I need to make it look right also. If I didn't make changes the tender would kind of dwarf the engine, even look to big or out of scale for the engine. By correcting the engine / tender height relationship I now must make this large gap I created look right.
              >
              > The large gaps between walk ways would not look normal if I don't. ( Imagine a scale person trying to jump that scale gap ) Now with the picture of 6146 just sent me and 513 previously sent I can make things " plausible" by the addition of little steps in the two places I mentioned and I still can be true to both the Conover kit and a real engine and this satisfies me. In addition the ability to assemble and reassemble the frame, cylinder and boiler easily is an added plus.
              >
              > That is what makes these Yahoo sites great. The ability to ask others opinions, take them into consideration and go from there.
              >
              > Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15523 From: jim heckard Date: 11/30/2010
              Subject: Conover Boiler / Frame Height
              Attachments :
               
              Hi Nelson,
               
                      Let me explain about the tender trucks first. It isn't going to matter if I use the original tender trucks. While it is hard to see if you don't hold the parts in your hand the tender body /  frame can't be lowered unless you hack up the bolsters on the frame which I'm sure was not part of the original plan or design. No matter how many different sets of trucks I have tried under the tender the frame it usually touches the middle wheel set and  the trucks never can  turn unless you "raise" the tender with a spacer between the frame and trucks. With the spacer inserted everything is free to move and the height measurement matches the drawings.
               
                 Now as for the boiler being to high. Look at the picture I sent. These parts still have to be installed. Start at the front there is a steam pipe from the cylinder to the boiler. Back a little the two original pieces that form the hanger system for the valve gear will be installed. As you go back further the two double air compressors will be added. Don't forget the motor will be inside behind them. Then farther back under the boiler and part of the cab is where the ash pan has to be constructed and installed. Picture all these pieces on and the boiler will not look high.
               
                   Remember in the real engine the cab and tender were basically the same height  ( B&0 6145 I believe the number was one  saw) It also has the walk way over the cylinder low like my engine allowing for a larger drop off from the boiler walk way where I will install a single step . This real engine also has a single step added under the front of the cylinder walk way to get to the pilot ( No ladder ) The addition of these two steps will allow me to be true to the Conover kit and also match a prototype.
               
                                                      Jim H
               
               
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15524 From: Nelson Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover Boiler / Frame Height
              I was picturing it with the appliances on it in my head, but I think it was the firebox height that threw me. The fact that there's an ashpan to be added will make a huge difference. I found some good photos of the Rossi version, and the height above the drivers looks about the same.

              It's just hard to imagine that Conover made these kits with dimensions that far off. It's easier than carving the whole loco out of a brass ingot, but not by much.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Nelson,
              >
              > Let me explain about the tender trucks first. It isn't going to matter if I use the original tender trucks. While it is hard to see if you don't hold the parts in your hand the tender body / frame can't be lowered unless you hack up the bolsters on the frame which I'm sure was not part of the original plan or design. No matter how many different sets of trucks I have tried under the tender the frame it usually touches the middle wheel set and the trucks never can turn unless you "raise" the tender with a spacer between the frame and trucks. With the spacer inserted everything is free to move and the height measurement matches the drawings.
              >
              > Now as for the boiler being to high. Look at the picture I sent. These parts still have to be installed. Start at the front there is a steam pipe from the cylinder to the boiler. Back a little the two original pieces that form the hanger system for the valve gear will be installed. As you go back further the two double air compressors will be added. Don't forget the motor will be inside behind them. Then farther back under the boiler and part of the cab is where the ash pan has to be constructed and installed. Picture all these pieces on and the boiler will not look high.
              >
              > Remember in the real engine the cab and tender were basically the same height ( B&0 6145 I believe the number was one saw) It also has the walk way over the cylinder low like my engine allowing for a larger drop off from the boiler walk way where I will install a single step . This real engine also has a single step added under the front of the cylinder walk way to get to the pilot ( No ladder ) The addition of these two steps will allow me to be true to the Conover kit and also match a prototype.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15525 From: jim heckard Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
               
               
              Hi Nelson,
               
                       I honestly respect your opinions and observations but I wanted to show you a side by side comparison of the Conover S-1 to  the Rivarossi S-1a to give a little perspective.  ( It is a B&O type S-1a even though decaled for my railroad )  The first  picture shows the engines back to back on the same track. You will notice the Rivarossi cab is higher then the Conover. Second picture shows them both facing same way. ( I think the Rivarossi engine would be pretty good scale wise.) Instead of my Conover looking to high it doesn't look wrong in this comparison.
               
                  As for the tenders the back to back picture looks the same. The coal hopper bin on the Conover is slightly higher but the top tender walk way is the same height. I will agree that the Conover tender frame is more bulky but in line overall with the Rivarossi. Notice the tender trucks on both are pretty well even height wise even with the spacer on top of  my Conover trucks that allows them to turn freely.
               
                   The last picture is of a friend's completed ( minus some detail ) running Conover engine less tender. Sorry it is taken from a photograph and I could not get the glare off. The part I want to show is the gap between the bottom of the cab to the frame  ( With ash pan on it ).
               
                   I sent these pictures because I know certain pictures give a distorted type view. Having it side by side gives a much better perspective. From this comparison I believe the Conover engine not that much out of scale for when made ( 1938 ) and the height I brought the engine boiler / cab  up to is not out of line.
               
                  Would be interested to hear comments from anyone.
               
                                                                                 Jim H
               
               
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15526 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
              Good morning,
               I think a side by side comparison puts it all into prospective. The fact that the ash pan, springs and valve gear are not on the Conover is what made it look to tall.
               Having the Rivarossi model should make the ash pan and valve gear construction a bit easier also.
               Good job Jim.


              --- On Wed, 12/1/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 7:03 AM

              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]

               
               
              Hi Nelson,
               
                       I honestly respect your opinions and observations but I wanted to show you a side by side comparison of the Conover S-1 to  the Rivarossi S-1a to give a little perspective.  ( It is a B&O type S-1a even though decaled for my railroad )  The first  picture shows the engines back to back on the same track. You will notice the Rivarossi cab is higher then the Conover. Second picture shows them both facing same way. ( I think the Rivarossi engine would be pretty good scale wise.) Instead of my Conover looking to high it doesn't look wrong in this comparison.
               
                  As for the tenders the back to back picture looks the same. The coal hopper bin on the Conover is slightly higher but the top tender walk way is the same height. I will agree that the Conover tender frame is more bulky but in line overall with the Rivarossi. Notice the tender trucks on both are pretty well even height wise even with the spacer on top of  my Conover trucks that allows them to turn freely.
               
                   The last picture is of a friend's completed ( minus some detail ) running Conover engine less tender. Sorry it is taken from a photograph and I could not get the glare off. The part I want to show is the gap between the bottom of the cab to the frame  ( With ash pan on it ).
               
                   I sent these pictures because I know certain pictures give a distorted type view. Having it side by side gives a much better perspective. From this comparison I believe the Conover engine not that much out of scale for when made ( 1938 ) and the height I brought the engine boiler / cab  up to is not out of line.
               
                  Would be interested to hear comments from anyone.
               
                                                                                 Jim H
               
               
               
               

              Attachment(s) from jim heckard

              4 of 4 Photo(s)


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15527 From: Andrew Emmerson Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
              Just a polite comment from one who knows!
               
              > I think the Rivarossi engine would be pretty good scale wise.
               
              It may be, Jim, but probably not. You need to be aware that most Rivarossi products have been made to 1:82 scale (just like Fleischmann for that matter). A Google search for "rivarossi 1:82 scale" will rapidly confirm this.
               
              I believe their newer products follow the 1:87 scale more accurately and I don't know when they introduced the S1-a. If it's more than ten years old it's probably 1:82.
               
              Hope this helps.
               
              Would be interested to hear comments from anyone.
               
              I'm relieved to hear this!
               
              Andy Emmerson.

               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15528 From: al45390 Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
              Interesting factoid. Is the Conover 1:87, 1:82, or something else, I wonder?
              Walter

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Emmerson" <andrew.emmerson4@...> wrote:
              >
              > Just a polite comment from one who knows!
              >
              > > I think the Rivarossi engine would be pretty good scale wise.
              >
              > It may be, Jim, but probably not. You need to be aware that most Rivarossi products have been made to 1:82 scale (just like Fleischmann for that matter). A Google search for "rivarossi 1:82 scale" will rapidly confirm this.
              >
              > I believe their newer products follow the 1:87 scale more accurately and I don't know when they introduced the S1-a. If it's more than ten years old it's probably 1:82.
              >
              > Hope this helps.
              >
              > > Would be interested to hear comments from anyone.
              >
              > I'm relieved to hear this!
              >
              > Andy Emmerson.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15529 From: John H Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
              I don't have it at hand but as I recall, Model Railroader's review of the Rivarossi model stated it was quite correct in dimension and detailing other than the under scale drivers to make up for the over sized flanges and still stay within a reasonable wheelbase.

              I owned one of those models for a few years and never did anything with it and finally sold it during a financial situation that required me selling a lot of train stuff.

              I wanted to replace the motor but never did as I decided the driver looked bad enough that I had to find a way of replacing them first but never did. Other than that, I liked it. I still want a nice S1a, along with several other B&O steamers...and a couple blue - black - grey diesels.

              John

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Emmerson" <andrew.emmerson4@...> wrote:
              >
              > Just a polite comment from one who knows!
              >
              > > I think the Rivarossi engine would be pretty good scale wise.
              >
              > It may be, Jim, but probably not. You need to be aware that most Rivarossi products have been made to 1:82 scale (just like Fleischmann for that matter). A Google search for "rivarossi 1:82 scale" will rapidly confirm this.
              >
              > I believe their newer products follow the 1:87 scale more accurately and I don't know when they introduced the S1-a. If it's more than ten years old it's probably 1:82.
              >
              > Hope this helps.
              >
              > > Would be interested to hear comments from anyone.
              >
              > I'm relieved to hear this!
              >
              > Andy Emmerson.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15530 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              Rivarossi S1a was introduced in early 1968.
              Don Staton in VA
              ==========================================================================================
              On 12/1/2010 9:33 AM, Andrew Emmerson wrote:
               

              Just a polite comment from one who knows!
               
              > I think the Rivarossi engine would be pretty good scale wise.
               
              It may be, Jim, but probably not. You need to be aware that most Rivarossi products have been made to 1:82 scale (just like Fleischmann for that matter). A Google search for "rivarossi 1:82 scale" will rapidly confirm this.
               
              I believe their newer products follow the 1:87 scale more accurately and I don't know when they introduced the S1-a. If it's more than ten years old it's probably 1:82.
               
              Hope this helps.
               
              Would be interested to hear comments from anyone.
               
              I'm relieved to hear this!
               
              Andy Emmerson.

               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15531 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              I have been working on a Rivarossi S1a.
               I changed the drivers (Tyco 0-8-0), Changed the gear ratio with a different worm and squeezed a large can motor in the cab.
               I've made alot of parts to replace missing or broken parts.
               


              --- On Wed, 12/1/10, John H <sprinthag@...> wrote:

              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 5:52 PM

              I don't have it at hand but as I recall, Model Railroader's review of the Rivarossi model stated it was quite correct in dimension and detailing other than the under scale drivers to make up for the over sized flanges and still stay within a reasonable wheelbase.

              I owned one of those models for a few years and never did anything with it and finally sold it during a financial situation that required me selling a lot of train stuff.

              I wanted to replace the motor but never did as I decided the driver looked bad enough that I had to find a way of replacing them first but never did. Other than that, I liked it. I still want a nice S1a, along with several other B&O steamers...and a couple blue - black - grey diesels.

              John

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Emmerson" <andrew.emmerson4@...> wrote:
              >
              > Just a polite comment from one who knows!
              >
              > > I think the Rivarossi engine would be pretty good scale wise.
              >
              > It may be, Jim, but probably not. You need to be aware that most Rivarossi products have been made to 1:82 scale (just like Fleischmann for that matter). A Google search for "rivarossi 1:82 scale" will rapidly confirm this.
              >
              > I believe their newer products follow the 1:87 scale more accurately and I don't know when they introduced the S1-a. If it's more than ten years old it's probably 1:82.
              >
              > Hope this helps.
              >
              > > Would be interested to hear comments from anyone.
              >
              > I'm relieved to hear this!
              >
              > Andy Emmerson.
              >




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                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15532 From: Nelson Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
              I think the Rivarossi engines that are larger than scale are the smaller locos like the Heisler, 4-4-0's and 2-4-0 Bowker due to the size of their motors at the time they were designed. I think the larger steamers were more or less in scale, aside from the flanges.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John H" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > I don't have it at hand but as I recall, Model Railroader's review of the Rivarossi model stated it was quite correct in dimension and detailing other than the under scale drivers to make up for the over sized flanges and still stay within a reasonable wheelbase.
              >
              > I owned one of those models for a few years and never did anything with it and finally sold it during a financial situation that required me selling a lot of train stuff.
              >
              > I wanted to replace the motor but never did as I decided the driver looked bad enough that I had to find a way of replacing them first but never did. Other than that, I liked it. I still want a nice S1a, along with several other B&O steamers...and a couple blue - black - grey diesels.
              >
              > John
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15533 From: Nelson Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              Hi Jim,

              No problem... I was agreeing with you. It was the missing the ashpan that really threw off the proportions for me. Seeing it side-by-side with the Rossi further confirms this. I just can't believe the amount of modification this kit requires.

              The old Rivarossis were attractive engines in spite of the pizza cutters flanges.

              Nelson



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Nelson,
              >
              > I honestly respect your opinions and observations but I wanted to show you a side by side comparison of the Conover S-1 to the Rivarossi S-1a to give a little perspective. ( It is a B&O type S-1a even though decaled for my railroad ) The first picture shows the engines back to back on the same track. You will notice the Rivarossi cab is higher then the Conover. Second picture shows them both facing same way. ( I think the Rivarossi engine would be pretty good scale wise.) Instead of my Conover looking to high it doesn't look wrong in this comparison.
              >
              > As for the tenders the back to back picture looks the same. The coal hopper bin on the Conover is slightly higher but the top tender walk way is the same height. I will agree that the Conover tender frame is more bulky but in line overall with the Rivarossi. Notice the tender trucks on both are pretty well even height wise even with the spacer on top of my Conover trucks that allows them to turn freely.
              >
              > The last picture is of a friend's completed ( minus some detail ) running Conover engine less tender. Sorry it is taken from a photograph and I could not get the glare off. The part I want to show is the gap between the bottom of the cab to the frame ( With ash pan on it ).
              >
              > I sent these pictures because I know certain pictures give a distorted type view. Having it side by side gives a much better perspective. From this comparison I believe the Conover engine not that much out of scale for when made ( 1938 ) and the height I brought the engine boiler / cab up to is not out of line.
              >
              > Would be interested to hear comments from anyone.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15534 From: John Webster Date: 12/1/2010
              Subject: Re: SHAY PROMOTIONAL CABOOSES
              There were a series of Lima promotional cars;
               
              1012 36' Box
              1013 34' Baggage
              1014 34' Passenger
              1015 34' Business    I'm still looking for this one.
              1016 36' Box
              1017 34' Passenger
              1018 34' Passenger
              1019 34' Drover Caboose
               
              I don't know if there were kits numbered below 1012 or above 1019. If there were I'd be interested in aquiring them.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15535 From: John Webster Date: 12/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              You're doing a wonderful restoration and I enjoy the updates.
              Regarding the boiler height, the difference between the bottom of the forward air tank and the top of the valve chest in the prototype photo should be your guide. Re working the tender and it's trucks looks like the option that will produce a closer to scale model.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15536 From: jim heckard Date: 12/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]
              Hi Ray,
               
                  Nice job. Neat modifications. Boy you really did squeeze that can motor in the cab. One addition I especially like is the step you added to the steam chest / cylinder walkway.  That is what I plan to do for my S-1 project. How much size difference is there between the original Rivarossi drivers and the TYCO you put in ? I know the Rivarossi had the larger flanges but are the TYCO flanges "normal" size ?
               
                                                                 Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 12:04 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]

               

              I have been working on a Rivarossi S1a.
               I changed the drivers (Tyco 0-8-0), Changed the gear ratio with a different worm and squeezed a large can motor in the cab.
               I've made alot of parts to replace missing or broken parts.
               


              --- On Wed, 12/1/10, John H <sprinthag@...> wrote:

              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 5:52 PM

              I don't have it at hand but as I recall, Model Railroader's review of the Rivarossi model stated it was quite correct in dimension and detailing other than the under scale drivers to make up for the over sized flanges and still stay within a reasonable wheelbase.

              I owned one of those models for a few years and never did anything with it and finally sold it during a financial situation that required me selling a lot of train stuff.

              I wanted to replace the motor but never did as I decided the driver looked bad enough that I had to find a way of replacing them first but never did. Other than that, I liked it. I still want a nice S1a, along with several other B&O steamers...and a couple blue - black - grey diesels.

              John

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Emmerson" <andrew.emmerson4@...> wrote:
              >
              > Just a polite comment from one who knows!
              >
              > > I think the Rivarossi engine would be pretty good scale wise.
              >
              > It may be, Jim, but probably not. You need to be aware that most Rivarossi products have been made to 1:82 scale (just like Fleischmann for that matter). A Google search for "rivarossi 1:82 scale" will rapidly confirm this.
              >
              > I believe their newer products follow the 1:87 scale more accurately and I don't know when they introduced the S1-a. If it's more than ten years old it's probably 1:82.
              >
              > Hope this helps.
              >
              > > Would be interested to hear comments from anyone.
              >
              > I'm relieved to hear this!
              >
              > Andy Emmerson.
              >




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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15537 From: RalphB Date: 12/2/2010
              Subject: Re: SHAY PROMOTIONAL CABOOSES
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, John Webster wrote:
              >
              > I don't know if there were kits numbered below 1012 or above 1019. If there were I'd be interested in aquiring them.
              >
              -------------------
              I took a look in one of my older Walthers catalogs and Roundhouse car 1020 was an undecorated Milwaukee-style horizontal rib 40' boxcar.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15538 From: John H Date: 12/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              Very nice work, Ray. Impressive.

              And the model has a lot of detail as it comes. Yes, a lot of molded on detail but often a good, properly weathered paint job will help to bring the detail out. Being plastic, any detail that one feels is not up to their standards can be relatively easily replaced.

              There has been a few brass models built over the years but the best ones are gonna cost ya. And then there is the problem with modifying one to match a particular prototype. It seems a lot easier (and less risky) to start cutting and slicing one of the Rivarossi's than something from, say, Overland.

              And I'll bet that Ray's will run better than most brass.

              John Hagen


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have been working on a Rivarossi S1a.
              >  I changed the drivers (Tyco 0-8-0), Changed the gear ratio with a different worm and squeezed a large can motor in the cab.
              >  I've made alot of parts to replace missing or broken parts.
              >  
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15539 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 12/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              I was concidering the higher runningboards over the cylinders with the steps all the way to the pilot but decided to go with the low running boards. The original running boards and pipes to the boiler were cut off for some reason before I got the loco.
              The motor is a tight fit and probably larger than needed after the change in gear ratio. NWSL sells an upper gear box regear set that would make it a simple conversion.
               The Tyco drivers aren't much larger and the flanges are still oversize but not as large as the original Rivarossi flanges. A better driver substitute for an S1a might be from an IHC Mikado. 
              --- On Thu, 12/2/10, jim heckard <jimheck@...> wrote:

              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, December 2, 2010, 6:23 AM



              Hi Ray,
               
                  Nice job. Neat modifications. Boy you really did squeeze that can motor in the cab. One addition I especially like is the step you added to the steam chest / cylinder walkway.  That is what I plan to do for my S-1 project. How much size difference is there between the original Rivarossi drivers and the TYCO you put in ? I know the Rivarossi had the larger flanges but are the TYCO flanges "normal" size ?
               
                                                                 Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 12:04 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi [4 Attachments]

               
              I have been working on a Rivarossi S1a.
               I changed the drivers (Tyco 0-8-0), Changed the gear ratio with a different worm and squeezed a large can motor in the cab.
               I've made alot of parts to replace missing or broken parts.
               


              --- On Wed, 12/1/10, John H <sprinthag@...> wrote:

              From: John H <sprinthag@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 5:52 PM

              I don't have it at hand but as I recall, Model Railroader's review of the Rivarossi model stated it was quite correct in dimension and detailing other than the under scale drivers to make up for the over sized flanges and still stay within a reasonable wheelbase.

              I owned one of those models for a few years and never did anything with it and finally sold it during a financial situation that required me selling a lot of train stuff.

              I wanted to replace the motor but never did as I decided the driver looked bad enough that I had to find a way of replacing them first but never did. Other than that, I liked it. I still want a nice S1a, along with several other B&O steamers...and a couple blue - black - grey diesels.

              John

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Emmerson" <andrew.emmerson4@...> wrote:
              >
              > Just a polite comment from one who knows!
              >
              > > I think the Rivarossi engine would be pretty good scale wise.
              >
              > It may be, Jim, but probably not. You need to be aware that most Rivarossi products have been made to 1:82 scale (just like Fleischmann for that matter). A Google search for "rivarossi 1:82 scale" will rapidly confirm this.
              >
              > I believe their newer products follow the 1:87 scale more accurately and I don't know when they introduced the S1-a. If it's more than ten years old it's probably 1:82.
              >
              > Hope this helps.
              >
              > > Would be interested to hear comments from anyone.
              >
              > I'm relieved to hear this!
              >
              > Andy Emmerson.
              >




              ------------------------------------

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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15540 From: Alpvalsys@aol.com Date: 12/2/2010
              Subject: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts
              I said I'd try to send a picture yesterday of the unidentified parts I received in my eBay purchases.  Well, a storm rolled through and I lost my internet connection for a few hours.
               
              Here's the photo I intended to send.  At the top of the pic is a frame that's close to the one for the plastic Alco RS-3, but the truck pivot spacing is about two scale feet (1/4 inch) shorter and there are two projections on each side that aren't on the RS-3 frame.
               
              The trucks appear to be a "main" and "auxiliary" pair, but there are differences.  Besides having the large spur gear on the drive shaft, the main truck has plastic wheels on one side and small projections off the middle of the gear box cap.  The auxiliary truck has brass wheels all the way around, and the axles are stubbed.  All the wheels are 33-inch diameter on an 8'9" wheelbase, definitely not large locomotive wheels.  The other parts are simply another gear box and three gear box caps.  Any help in identifying these pieces would be appreciated.
               
              All the rest of the parts I bought I finally was able to identify from data on HOSeeker's web site.  Although there were near-complete mechanisms for an RS-3 and an RSD-4, I'm missing one Pittman motor, one weight, a couple of insulating bushings, and the so-called drive rods that go between the trucks.  I figure if I can't find the latter two items, I can make suitable substitutes.
               
              As for the rest of the lot, I have bits and pieces from several kits:  an extra pair of trucks for an RSD-4, long and short hoods for a metal RS-3 (no cab or frame); lots of pieces for the universal power chassis, but only one un-geared truck; a frame for the revised universal power chassis; the frame for the Globe F-7; and two gear boxes w/caps, but no gears and only one truck side frame for the E-7.
               
              Ralph B
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15541 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts [1 Attachment]
              The Hobbytown drive shafts are available from Micro Mark.  Precision Scale Co has the bushings.
               
              gj

              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 9:33 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts [1 Attachment]

              I said I'd try to send a picture yesterday of the unidentified parts I received in my eBay purchases.  Well, a storm rolled through and I lost my internet connection for a few hours.
               
              Here's the photo I intended to send.  At the top of the pic is a frame that's close to the one for the plastic Alco RS-3, but the truck pivot spacing is about two scale feet (1/4 inch) shorter and there are two projections on each side that aren't on the RS-3 frame.
               
              The trucks appear to be a "main" and "auxiliary" pair, but there are differences.  Besides having the large spur gear on the drive shaft, the main truck has plastic wheels on one side and small projections off the middle of the gear box cap.  The auxiliary truck has brass wheels all the way around, and the axles are stubbed.  All the wheels are 33-inch diameter on an 8'9" wheelbase, definitely not large locomotive wheels.  The other parts are simply another gear box and three gear box caps.  Any help in identifying these pieces would be appreciated.
               
              All the rest of the parts I bought I finally was able to identify from data on HOSeeker's web site.  Although there were near-complete mechanisms for an RS-3 and an RSD-4, I'm missing one Pittman motor, one weight, a couple of insulating bushings, and the so-called drive rods that go between the trucks.  I figure if I can't find the latter two items, I can make suitable substitutes.
               
              As for the rest of the lot, I have bits and pieces from several kits:  an extra pair of trucks for an RSD-4, long and short hoods for a metal RS-3 (no cab or frame); lots of pieces for the universal power chassis, but only one un-geared truck; a frame for the revised universal power chassis; the frame for the Globe F-7; and two gear boxes w/caps, but no gears and only one truck side frame for the E-7.
               
              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15542 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/2/2010
              Subject: Famoco GG1 parts
              Hi, all. . .
              Took a chance on a Famoco  HO GG1 kit on eBay some time ago (one of those estate sales I believe) and finally got around to checking for any missing parts. Am missing 2 side ladders and an end beam with the separate 2 side steps. Anyone knows of a partial kit that's available out there, let me know. Lots of 'em got kicked around over the years I'm sure. Thanks.
               
              Art W
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15543 From: CinderCrusher Date: 12/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts [1 Attachment]
              Glenn,

              Thanks for that bit of information. I've been looking for those universal drive shafts.

              Bill DeFoe



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <glenn476@...> wrote:
              >
              > The Hobbytown drive shafts are available from Micro Mark.
              >
              > gj
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15544 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/2/2010
              Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts
              PSC has several sizes of plastic bushings. gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "CinderCrusher" <defoe242@...>
              Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 12:59 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts

              > Glenn,
              >
              > Thanks for that bit of information. I've been looking for those universal
              > drive shafts.
              >
              > Bill DeFoe
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <glenn476@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> The Hobbytown drive shafts are available from Micro Mark.
              >>
              >> gj
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15545 From: RalphB Date: 12/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts [1 Attachment]
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Glenn wrote:
              >
              > The Hobbytown drive shafts are available from Micro Mark. Precision Scale Co has the bushings.
              >
              -------------------
              Thanks, Glenn; I knew somebody on this list had to have that kind of knowledge. I should be able to get two operable units for about the same price as I've seen one mechanism at train shows.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15546 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts
              What IS a good price for a Hobbytown chassis? I didn't sell a GP-30 at the
              Medford show last weekend--
              gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...>
              Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 5:29 AM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts

              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Glenn wrote:
              >>
              >> The Hobbytown drive shafts are available from Micro Mark. Precision
              >> Scale Co has the bushings.
              >>
              > -------------------
              > Thanks, Glenn; I knew somebody on this list had to have that kind of
              > knowledge. I should be able to get two operable units for about the same
              > price as I've seen one mechanism at train shows.
              >
              > Ralph B
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15547 From: Chris B Date: 12/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts
              I've got at least one of almost every model of hobbytown chassis, all bought on ebay; prices I paid varied widely, the only constant, IMHO, is a premium price for the "yard switcher" chassis.


              I do frequently see lower prices for the more common RS-3 chassis, or any of the early drive models with the drive gear outboard of the drive truck.


              Other features that would incline me to pay more, rather than less for any individual unit would include: universals over rubber tubing; flywheel over no flywheel models; mint unbuilt over built; 6 whl drive (in 6 whl trucks) over 4 whl drv in 6 whl trucks; nylon gears; orig box & paperwork; unpainted hobbytown shells on hobbytown drives; upgrades like can motors; tomar sliders; ball bearings in drive shaft monts or gears; K D's etc.

              YMMV,
              Chris B

              From: <glenn476@...>
              Sender: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 08:45:06 -0800
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts

               

              What IS a good price for a Hobbytown chassis? I didn't sell a GP-30 at the
              Medford show last weekend--
              gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...>
              Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 5:29 AM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Unidentified Hobbytown of Boston parts

              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Glenn wrote:
              >>
              >> The Hobbytown drive shafts are available from Micro Mark. Precision
              >> Scale Co has the bushings.
              >>
              > -------------------
              > Thanks, Glenn; I knew somebody on this list had to have that kind of
              > knowledge. I should be able to get two operable units for about the same
              > price as I've seen one mechanism at train shows.
              >
              > Ralph B
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15548 From: Nelson Date: 12/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              Nice job as usual, Ray. I see you ground the flanges off the main drivers. The rear side rods look like the Tyco ones, so I guess the wheel spacing is the same? I also notice that you used a Pacific trailing truck.

              I'm always amazed that you manage to shoehorn those VCR motors into the cabs in these locos. Like you said it's probably overkill, but I'm sure it runs smooth and slow.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
              >
              > I was concidering the higher runningboards over the cylinders with the steps all the way to the pilot but decided to go with the low running boards. The original running boards and pipes to the boiler were cut off for some reason before I got the loco.
              > The motor is a tight fit and probably larger than needed after the change in gear ratio. NWSL sells an upper gear box regear set that would make it a simple conversion.
              >  The Tyco drivers aren't much larger and the flanges are still oversize but not as large as the original Rivarossi flanges. A better driver substitute for an S1a might be from an IHC Mikado. 
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15549 From: Ray Marinaccio Date: 12/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              Good eye Nelson. Those are the Tyco side rods. They were close to the correct length and only needed minor filing of the holes to make them work.
               I modified the Pacific trailing truck by making a replacement metal frame for it.
               The pilot wheel assembly was built from scratch.
               I fit the Tyco wheels onto the Rivarossi axles by soldering brass sleeves onto the ends of the axles then pressing the wheels on.
               A set of drivers on 3mm axles would be a drop in fit except for the geared axle which has a larger journal diameter and would need a set of bushings to use a 3mm axle in that slot in the frame.  The problem with the 3mm axle approach is that the Rivarossi axle gear is part of the axle and can't be removed.

              --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Nelson <greenbrier614@...> wrote:

              From: Nelson <greenbrier614@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 4:28 PM

              Nice job as usual, Ray. I see you ground the flanges off the main drivers. The rear side rods look like the Tyco ones, so I guess the wheel spacing is the same? I also notice that you used a Pacific trailing truck.

              I'm always amazed that you manage to shoehorn those VCR motors into the cabs in these locos. Like you said it's probably overkill, but I'm sure it runs smooth and slow.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
              >
              > I was concidering the higher runningboards over the cylinders with the steps all the way to the pilot but decided to go with the low running boards. The original running boards and pipes to the boiler were cut off for some reason before I got the loco.
              > The motor is a tight fit and probably larger than needed after the change in gear ratio. NWSL sells an upper gear box regear set that would make it a simple conversion.
              >  The Tyco drivers aren't much larger and the flanges are still oversize but not as large as the original Rivarossi flanges. A better driver substitute for an S1a might be from an IHC Mikado. 




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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15550 From: theresebanks@verizon.net Date: 12/3/2010
              Subject: Re: Famoco GG1 parts
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
              >
              > Hi, all. . .
              > Took a chance on a Famoco HO GG1 kit on eBay some time ago (one of those
              > estate sales I believe) and finally got around to checking for any missing
              > parts. Am missing 2 side ladders and an end beam with the separate 2 side
              > steps. Anyone knows of a partial kit that's available out there, let me
              > know. Lots of 'em got kicked around over the years I'm sure. Thanks.
              >
              > Art W
              >
              Art,
              I had someone that went by LUVPRR repair a Bowser K4 a few years ago. By chance was that you?
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15551 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/4/2010
              Subject: Re: Famoco GG1 parts
              Probably was. . . .
               
              In a message dated 12/4/2010 12:34:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, theresebanks@... writes:




              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
              >
              > Hi, all. . .
              > Took a chance on a Famoco  HO GG1 kit on eBay some time ago (one  of those
              > estate sales I believe) and finally got around to checking  for any missing
              > parts. Am missing 2 side ladders and an end beam with  the separate 2 side
              > steps. Anyone knows of a partial kit that's available  out there, let me
              > know. Lots of 'em got kicked around over the years I'm sure.  Thanks.

              > Art W
              >
              Art,
              I had someone that went by LUVPRR repair a Bowser K4 a few years ago. By chance was that you?



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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15552 From: tieplatejunction Date: 12/4/2010
              Subject: Doughnuts...
              ...yeah, that's what I thought.

              I was given two ancient HO scale freight kits by a friend. The interior bag is marked;

              Doughnuts
              FINCO Consumers Co-operative
              Made by Co-operative Trading Assn. Inc.
              Wholesale and Retail Bakers
              4301 Eighth Ave.
              Brooklyn, N.Y.

              http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p96/1shaygetz/donuts1.jpg

              The boxes are simply typed on the end with the road and car type.

              Any thoughts as to who made these?
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15553 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Doughnuts...
              Your FINCO Consumers Co-operative, "Doughnuts" freight car kits were
              produced by Comet Models (there is a spread sheet in the Files section on this
              manufacturer). Comet produced a total of 15 different freight car kits -- 6
              boxcars, 6 reefers and 3 flat cars. Your Hormell reefer #803 is one of them,
              having this road number (car side number).

              While your plain box was one of the packaging they came in, in their early
              years, they did go on to supply a nice glossy red, bleck & yellow two-piece
              box later on -- in which the finished model could be stored. They never,
              however, contained their kits in any kind of interior bag, such as what you're
              describing.

              If your kits came in sealed interior bags having this baking company
              printing on it, it may appear as though this baking company bought a number of
              kits from Comet for use as a promotional item of some sort. If, on the other
              hand, these interior bags are unsealed, there may never have been any direct
              connection with Comet, and FINCO may have just decided to package and sell
              Comet kits on their own, with no help from Comet Models in supplying these
              kits to FINCO. Even sealed interior bags do not necessarily indicate any
              connection with Comet, as FINCO could have re-packaged the kits in bags on their
              own, but may lend some credence to an association with Comet. I've never
              heard of FINCO before in any aspect of carrying these Comet Model kits, and
              am suspect of it having a direct connection with Comet, but there's still a
              lot we don't know about early H0.

              Ray Wetzel

              </HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15554 From: Nelson Date: 12/5/2010
              Subject: Re: Conover S-1 vs Rivarossi
              I was wondering which axles you used, but that axle gear wouldn't allow a swap. All of their steamers with the upper gearboxes seemed to have one piece helical gears and axles. The axles were usually all different too, with different length shoulders, etc. Seems like all of that machining would be a more expensive way of doing things.

              So how does it run?

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Ray Marinaccio <raymarinaccio@...> wrote:
              >
              > Good eye Nelson. Those are the Tyco side rods. They were close to the correct length and only needed minor filing of the holes to make them work.
              >  I modified the Pacific trailing truck by making a replacement metal frame for it.
              >  The pilot wheel assembly was built from scratch.
              >  I fit the Tyco wheels onto the Rivarossi axles by soldering brass sleeves onto the ends of the axles then pressing the wheels on.
              >  A set of drivers on 3mm axles would be a drop in fit except for the geared axle which has a larger journal diameter and would need a set of bushings to use a 3mm axle in that slot in the frame.  The problem with the 3mm axle approach is that the Rivarossi axle gear is part of the axle and can't be removed.
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15555 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/5/2010
              Subject: RedBall parts question
              I could take a picture, but these are so small and not-removed-from-the-sprue it wouldn't show up.

              I have 4 or 5 sets of these, the sprue is cast "RedBall", and along both sides of that sprue are squarish chain link looking things.

              Looking close and scratching my noggin, I THINK they are turnbuckles for truss rods (glue onto the rods).

              3 per side (if I remember), six per casting.

              Is that what they are?

              Also ended up with 27 frame bolsters, really nice, in that they are flat (with detail) and just the pivot raised, so those old trucks won't have their sideframes hit the bolster.
              THOSE are gonna fix some cars with multiple washers.....

              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15556 From: Robert the N. Date: 12/5/2010
              Subject: Re: RedBall parts question
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have 4 or 5 sets of these, the sprue is cast "RedBall", and along both sides of that sprue are squarish chain link looking things.
              >
              > Looking close and scratching my noggin, I THINK they are turnbuckles for truss rods (glue onto the rods).
              >
              > Is that what they are?

              I do believe they are.

              Bob Netzlof
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15557 From: Model RailRoad Warehouse Date: 12/6/2010
              Subject: Red Ball Turnbuckles
              Yes--the six parts being described with "Red Ball" on the center "lug" are turnbuckles. They were the only turnbuckles to be had (as undividually available parts) for decades so an awfully lot of them were made and sold. Note of caution regarding ID of unknown kits: These and various other (ends, doors,bolsters) were also sold in bulk to other specialty kitmakers for use in their kits. Some such parts do have the Red Ball name as well as the characteristic cutoff ( center on back) from the [metal feed]slug. They are known to have been copied -PIRATED- [for rubber mold duplication] by some short lived kitmakers and two still in existence. And, yes before someone asks, the turnbucklews were among the parts also run in styrene [using the same molds] and sold under the Cannomball brand by us when we made Red Ball metal/wood kits.

              Merle Rice
              Model RR Warehouse
              Manufacturer of Red Ball 1975-2009
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15558 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/6/2010
              Subject: Car Identification
              Well--I finally got my display cases from IBL and  got them mounted on the wall--now I am digging out my collection.  Some items I don't recognize.  Others I may have surplus--I think I plan to keep a "type set" of most manufacturers. Eventually I will have a list.
               
              First to identify is a die-cast RPO-Baggage car--about 1/4" longer than the John English coach--arch roof--Baggage end has two 4-panel doors, RPO section has three  windows and the postal door.   4-wheel trucks. 
               
              In MDC  I am still looking for the 3-bay offset-side hopper, the "economy-series wood boxcar (door and side panels cast as one part, decal lettering) and the UP caboose.
               
              Thanks and  stay tuned.
               
              Glenn Joesten
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15559 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Car Identification
              Flyer. As in American.
              Made by Gilbert.
              Have one in my paws right now.
              Dave
              .
              >
              > First to identify is a die-cast RPO-Baggage car--about 1/4" longer than the John English coach--arch roof--Baggage end has two 4-panel doors, RPO section has three windows and the postal door. 4-wheel trucks.

              > Thanks and stay tuned.
              >
              > Glenn Joesten
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15560 From: al45390 Date: 12/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Car Identification
              Is there a picture, Glenn?

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Flyer. As in American.
              > Made by Gilbert.
              > Have one in my paws right now.
              > Dave
              > .
              > >
              > > First to identify is a die-cast RPO-Baggage car--about 1/4" longer than the John English coach--arch roof--Baggage end has two 4-panel doors, RPO section has three windows and the postal door. 4-wheel trucks.
              >
              > > Thanks and stay tuned.
              > >
              > > Glenn Joesten
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15561 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Car Identification
              Thanx gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 12:00 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Car Identification

              >
              > Flyer. As in American.
              > Made by Gilbert.
              > Have one in my paws right now.
              > Dave
              > .
              >>
              >> First to identify is a die-cast RPO-Baggage car--about 1/4" longer than
              >> the John English coach--arch roof--Baggage end has two 4-panel doors, RPO
              >> section has three windows and the postal door. 4-wheel trucks.
              >
              >> Thanks and stay tuned.
              >>
              >> Glenn Joesten
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15562 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Car Identification
              nope.

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "al45390" <bayerw2@...>
              Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 12:37 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Car Identification

              > Is there a picture, Glenn?
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> Flyer. As in American.
              >> Made by Gilbert.
              >> Have one in my paws right now.
              >> Dave
              >> .
              >> >
              >> > First to identify is a die-cast RPO-Baggage car--about 1/4" longer than
              >> > the John English coach--arch roof--Baggage end has two 4-panel doors,
              >> > RPO section has three windows and the postal door. 4-wheel trucks.
              >>
              >> > Thanks and stay tuned.
              >> >
              >> > Glenn Joesten
              >> >
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15563 From: tomvanhoy Date: 12/6/2010
              Subject: Winton at auction
              FYI: New England Toy Train Auction has a Winton 4-6-6-2 this Friday. It is an unbuilt kit as seen in the picture. Looks like it needs a good home! I am not affiliated with the auction house.
              Good luck,
              Tom VH
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15564 From: jim heckard Date: 12/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Winton at auction
              Hi Tom,
               
                     I would love to see the picture. I only know of two HO electric Winton engines , a 2-8-4 Berkshire and a 2-6-6-6 Allegheny being sold.  Never heard of a 4-6-6-2 unless a modified item but you mention in a kit. Any chance of posting that picture.
               
                                                                              Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: tomvanhoy
              Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 9:00 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Winton at auction

               

              FYI: New England Toy Train Auction has a Winton 4-6-6-2 this Friday. It is an unbuilt kit as seen in the picture. Looks like it needs a good home! I am not affiliated with the auction house.
              Good luck,
              Tom VH

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15565 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Winton at auction
              Checked the photo at the auction. It is a 2-6-6-6 Allegheny being sold. Partially built. I've done 2 complete ones of these, and the pieces look a little odd to me. Could be from other projects. Hard to tell from the photo.
               
              Art W
               
              In a message dated 12/6/2010 9:26:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jimheck@... writes:


              Hi Tom,
               
                     I would love to see the picture. I only know of two HO electric Winton engines , a 2-8-4 Berkshire and a 2-6-6-6 Allegheny being sold.  Never heard of a 4-6-6-2 unless a modified item but you mention in a kit. Any chance of posting that picture.
               
                                                                              Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: tomvanhoy
              Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 9:00 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Winton at auction

               

              FYI: New England Toy Train Auction has a Winton 4-6-6-2 this Friday. It is an unbuilt kit as seen in the picture. Looks like it needs a good home! I am not affiliated with the auction house.
              Good luck,
              Tom VH

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15566 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/6/2010
              Subject: Re: Winton at auction
              I should say some of the pieces look odd for that loco. Many are correct of course.
               
              In a message dated 12/6/2010 9:55:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, luvprr@... writes:


              Checked the photo at the auction. It is a 2-6-6-6 Allegheny being sold. Partially built. I've done 2 complete ones of these, and the pieces look a little odd to me. Could be from other projects. Hard to tell from the photo.
               
              Art W
               
              In a message dated 12/6/2010 9:26:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jimheck@... writes:


              Hi Tom,
               
                     I would love to see the picture. I only know of two HO electric Winton engines , a 2-8-4 Berkshire and a 2-6-6-6 Allegheny being sold.  Never heard of a 4-6-6-2 unless a modified item but you mention in a kit. Any chance of posting that picture.
               
                                                                              Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: tomvanhoy
              Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 9:00 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Winton at auction

               

              FYI: New England Toy Train Auction has a Winton 4-6-6-2 this Friday. It is an unbuilt kit as seen in the picture. Looks like it needs a good home! I am not affiliated with the auction house.
              Good luck,
              Tom VH

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15567 From: tomvanhoy Date: 12/7/2010
              Subject: winton
              The web site is Newenglandtoytrainexchange.com. Hope that helps.
              Regards,
              Tom VH
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15568 From: dennyanspach Date: 12/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Winton at auction
              Although it is very difficult to see details because of the poor photo (Item #274,  http://newenglandtoytrainexchange.com/12-10-10/lot274.htm), it looks to me that this may actually be one the second Winton/MaRa kits, which if so, has the potential of being made into an extraordinary model that can hold its own even today.  The driving wheels  seem to have the correct detailed spoked cast centers, unlike the "Necco Wafer" machined "disk" drivers of the earlier model. I also identify the investment cast front cylinders, but where are the rear cylinders?  Some fabrication has been already undertaken, as judged from apparent assembled valve gear.

              he truck side frames "seem" to be castings as well.  

              The importance of a direct inspection is pretty important before spending a lot of good money, however.  Just where are all the brass investment cast parts necessary and peculiar to this engine?    Where is the cab, pilot deck, etc.?  They may well be in the picture somewhere, but I cannot make them out in any sufficient manner.

              A lot of the cosmetic detail applied to boiler, etc. can still be obtained from PSC (and, less so, from Bowser), but it would be very difficult indeed to find cylinders,  drive rods, a cab, etc. etc.

              Denny


              Denny S.  Anspach MD
              Sacramento





              Group: vintageHO Message: 15569 From: jim heckard Date: 12/7/2010
              Subject: Red Ball ?
              Attachments :
               
                 Merle Rice
                 Model Railroad Warehouise / Red Ball
               
               
               
              Hi Mr. Rice,
               
                   Perhaps youi can give me information about this Ford tractor kit. Specifically was it originally a Penn Line product, a Red Ball product ? A friend of mine, who is a Penn Line collector, ask me if I knew. I can't answer but seeking your help. Any information will be appreciated.
               
                                                                       
                      " Enclosed find a photo of a Red Ball product the must have been acquired by Penn Line later on.  Every thing is the same as Penn Line except the wooden axle that you had to cut in length as the directions.  Penn Line used a metal axle on their model.  The flashing on the cab is plentiful.  Penn Line's model was very clean compared to this one."
               
                                                                                 Thank You,
                                                                                    Jim H
               
                
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15570 From: jim heckard Date: 12/7/2010
              Subject: Big Conover step
               

               
               
              Ray F W, All,
               
                        Some pictures of a big step on my Conover rebuild. Having found the original valve gear hangers ( 2 parts ) and after getting them cleaned and holes drilled I now have been able to assemble them into the one piece part called for in the plans.  While it might not look like a big thing it took a while to create the cross pieces that had to be soldered ( for strength )  between the pieces.
               
                  First picture will show the two separate parts getting lined up on the frame. I couldn't drill the holes in the frame till it was all one piece. ( You will notice in the background the stack fixed on the boiler and the headlight has been installed.)
               
                  Second picture shows the now one piece part in the position it will go. After I clean up the part better with a final smooth sanding to take out most scratches I will be able to mark, drill and tap the frame to bolt the piece on. ( Excuse the slightly longer side rod bolts on this side as I am waiting for the right size to arrive. Yo will notice other side has the right size. )
               
                 Final picture shows a close up of the one piece part with the cross pieces I had to make, shape and solder on. Hopefully soon I will decide what valve gear I will use if I can't find the original. I'm still searching.  I have now started to blow up and "copy" the individual valve gear parts from the little Conover catalog just in case. Slow progress on that end but I will now start adding details to the boiler and tender in between.
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
               
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15571 From: Richard White Date: 12/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step [3 Attachments]
              Jim- Your Conover "series" continues to make very enjoyable reading! Reading of your painstaking craftsmanship is an encouragement to my humble efforts. I see the makings of a book here- "The Conover Chronicles." Cheers- Richard White
                

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: jimheck@...
              Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:13:24 -0500
              Subject: [vintageHO] Big Conover step [3 Attachments]

               
              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
               

               
               
              Ray F W, All,
               
                        Some pictures of a big step on my Conover rebuild. Having found the original valve gear hangers ( 2 parts ) and after getting them cleaned and holes drilled I now have been able to assemble them into the one piece part called for in the plans.  While it might not look like a big thing it took a while to create the cross pieces that had to be soldered ( for strength )  between the pieces.
               
                  First picture will show the two separate parts getting lined up on the frame. I couldn't drill the holes in the frame till it was all one piece. ( You will notice in the background the stack fixed on the boiler and the headlight has been installed.)
               
                  Second picture shows the now one piece part in the position it will go. After I clean up the part better with a final smooth sanding to take out most scratches I will be able to mark, drill and tap the frame to bolt the piece on. ( Excuse the slightly longer side rod bolts on this side as I am waiting for the right size to arrive. Yo will notice other side has the right size. )
               
                 Final picture shows a close up of the one piece part with the cross pieces I had to make, shape and solder on. Hopefully soon I will decide what valve gear I will use if I can't find the original. I'm still searching.  I have now started to blow up and "copy" the individual valve gear parts from the little Conover catalog just in case. Slow progress on that end but I will now start adding details to the boiler and tender in between.
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
               
               
               


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15572 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 12/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
              Jim:

              Boy, that really looks good.  I stay pretty quiet here, but that caught my attention. 

              Dennis
              Odessa/Ritzville, E WA






              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: jimheck@...
              Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:13:24 -0500
              Subject: [vintageHO] Big Conover step [3 Attachments]

               
              [ Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
               

               
               
              Ray F W, All,
               
                        Some pictures of a big step on my Conover rebuild. Having found the original valve gear hangers ( 2 parts ) and after getting them cleaned and holes drilled I now have been able to assemble them into the one piece part called for in the plans.  While it might not look like a big thing it took a while to create the cross pieces that had to be soldered ( for strength )  between the pieces.
               
                  First picture will show the two separate parts getting lined up on the frame. I couldn't drill the holes in the frame till it was all one piece. ( You will notice in the background the stack fixed on the boiler and the headlight has been installed.)
               
                  Second picture shows the now one piece part in the position it will go. After I clean up the part better with a final smooth sanding to take out most scratches I will be able to mark, drill and tap the frame to bolt the piece on. ( Excuse the slightly longer side rod bolts on this side as I am waiting for the right size to arrive. Yo will notice other side has the right size. )
               
                 Final picture shows a close up of the one piece part with the cross pieces I had to make, shape and solder on. Hopefully soon I will decide what valve gear I will use if I can't find the original. I'm still searching.  I have now started to blow up and "copy" the individual valve gear parts from the little Conover catalog just in case. Slow progress on that end but I will now start adding details to the boiler and tender in between.
               
                                                                           Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15573 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball ? [1 Attachment]
              I'm wondering if the Red Ball is a LATER version of the Penn Line (which
              would account for the extra flash as the dies wore.)

              Part of my reasoning comes from the fact that the prototype was introduced
              in 1957, which is just about the time the Penn Line model came out. I know
              it was Penn Line as early as 1958.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 4:09 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball ? [1 Attachment]



              Merle Rice
              Model Railroad Warehouise / Red Ball



              Hi Mr. Rice,

              Perhaps youi can give me information about this Ford tractor kit.
              Specifically was it originally a Penn Line product, a Red Ball product ? A
              friend of mine, who is a Penn Line collector, ask me if I knew. I can't
              answer but seeking your help. Any information will be appreciated.


              " Enclosed find a photo of a Red Ball product the must have been
              acquired by Penn Line later on. Every thing is the same as Penn Line except
              the wooden axle that you had to cut in length as the directions. Penn Line
              used a metal axle on their model. The flashing on the cab is plentiful.
              Penn Line's model was very clean compared to this one."

              Thank
              You,
              Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15574 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/7/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step [3 Attachments]
              Jim,

              Your Conover project is looking better all the time. Nice find, getting
              the valve gear hanger. So, it's a two-piece cast item rather than a stamped
              metal part as on most other models. Your time spent on it sure shows as it
              looks great in place on the engine. You have a talent for metal working,
              even though I know, part of that is just your desire to finish this model as
              best you can.

              As I've told you, I've seen the required Baker Valve Gear offered on eBay a
              few times in the past -- not all that often, but they have been posted.
              Since the model will operate temporarily without having the valve gear
              installed, maybe you'd want to wait until this valve gear comes along rather than
              going to the work of scratch building it. You've gone without having this
              engine up until now; what's a little more time waiting for valve gear for it.

              Your step-by-step progress with this engine is almost as if it's a Group
              Project involving all of us, as it's great to just see the progress being made
              on it periodically and how it's advancing. It's like the ongoing Saga of
              the S-1 <g>.
              As continuing, Best of Luck with the engine -- it's getting there! Ray F.
              W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15575 From: Matthew Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
              Jim,

              You do beautiful work in brass!

              Matt

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Ray F W, All,
              >
              > Some pictures of a big step on my Conover rebuild. Having found the original valve gear hangers ( 2 parts ) and after getting them cleaned and holes drilled I now have been able to assemble them into the one piece part called for in the plans. While it might not look like a big thing it took a while to create the cross pieces that had to be soldered ( for strength ) between the pieces.
              >
              > First picture will show the two separate parts getting lined up on the frame. I couldn't drill the holes in the frame till it was all one piece. ( You will notice in the background the stack fixed on the boiler and the headlight has been installed.)
              >
              > Second picture shows the now one piece part in the position it will go. After I clean up the part better with a final smooth sanding to take out most scratches I will be able to mark, drill and tap the frame to bolt the piece on. ( Excuse the slightly longer side rod bolts on this side as I am waiting for the right size to arrive. Yo will notice other side has the right size. )
              >
              > Final picture shows a close up of the one piece part with the cross pieces I had to make, shape and solder on. Hopefully soon I will decide what valve gear I will use if I can't find the original. I'm still searching. I have now started to blow up and "copy" the individual valve gear parts from the little Conover catalog just in case. Slow progress on that end but I will now start adding details to the boiler and tender in between.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15576 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor
              Hi Don, All,
               
                   Thanks for your response . It makes perfect sense when you look at the dates. I'm sending other pictures sent to me that were part of the original request. It seems there were two different type runs of the same item but I have no idea. Any thoughts about this ?
               
               
                    " It has always been my belief that Penn Line had two molds of this Ford cab over engine . In all my years of collecting I have only ever found this one cab that is pictured in these two shots of the two cabs.  There is a difference with the one having west coast mirrors / air horn on cab roof . Except for that they are basically the same. I know you can not see it on the photos but on the Penn Line model you can see little indentations where the mirrors were mounted but maybe broke off during the casting of truck. Were these additional parts you added ? There is no visible marks on roof where the air horn might have gone. I was just wondering if this was also made by Red Ball at one time. "
               
                                                                                Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15577 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor [2 Attachments]
              I have only one Pennline Ford (that I bought new when I was a kid), and
              it has no indication where either mirrors or horn would go. See:
              <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/carcarrier.html>
              for an image of it (and a Revell Ford with car carrier).

              Mike

              On 12/8/2010 9:06 AM, jim heckard wrote:
              > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from jim heckard included below]
              >
              > Hi Don, All,
              > Thanks for your response . It makes perfect sense when you look at the
              > dates. I'm sending other pictures sent to me that were part of the
              > original request. It seems there were two different type runs of the
              > same item but I have no idea. Any thoughts about this ?
              > " It has always been my belief that Penn Line had two molds of this Ford
              > cab over engine . In all my years of collecting I have only ever found
              > this one cab that is pictured in these two shots of the two cabs. There
              > is a difference with the one having west coast mirrors / air horn on cab
              > roof . Except for that they are basically the same. I know you can not
              > see it on the photos but on the Penn Line model you can see little
              > indentations where the mirrors were mounted but maybe broke off during
              > the casting of truck. Were these additional parts you added ? There is
              > no visible marks on roof where the air horn might have gone. I was just
              > wondering if this was also made by Red Ball at one time. "
              > Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15578 From: Model RailRoad Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball ? [1 Attachment]
              Howell Day acquired the Ford (when Penn Line was liquidated?). The molds were NOT in the Red Ball tooling we received in 1975 leading me to suspect he either (1) had a custom run made or (2) he purchased the remaining inventory. The first option is a pattern he followed at times. The most notable being Kurtz Kraft PS1 and reefer kits he had them run for him when their original run was exhausted. He marketed those kits as Red Ball.

              The second option was evident in many detail items he catalogued but did not have tools. All "Red Ball" Fords were pre 1975 and the wooden axle suggests to me the second option I proposed-- after running out of steel parts. Red Ball DID [and does] have tooling to produce a semi trailer so it is clearly an alert business decision on Day's part in an era when the only other semis available were Ulrich and their Kenworth tractor was "foreign" to anyone east of the Mississippi at that time.

              Parting lines & part design assure me the tooling for the Ford would not have been usable with Red Ball's casting machine. If Howell did acquire the mold he had to have had some outside vendor run the parts for him and the mold would have been located in their shop. He did not provide any such information when Red Ball was purchased from him.

              Merle Rice


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm wondering if the Red Ball is a LATER version of the Penn Line (which
              > would account for the extra flash as the dies wore.)
              >
              > Part of my reasoning comes from the fact that the prototype was introduced
              > in 1957, which is just about the time the Penn Line model came out. I know
              > it was Penn Line as early as 1958.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 4:09 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball ? [1 Attachment]
              >
              >
              >
              > Merle Rice
              > Model Railroad Warehouise / Red Ball
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Mr. Rice,
              >
              > Perhaps youi can give me information about this Ford tractor kit.
              > Specifically was it originally a Penn Line product, a Red Ball product ? A
              > friend of mine, who is a Penn Line collector, ask me if I knew. I can't
              > answer but seeking your help. Any information will be appreciated.
              >
              >
              > " Enclosed find a photo of a Red Ball product the must have been
              > acquired by Penn Line later on. Every thing is the same as Penn Line except
              > the wooden axle that you had to cut in length as the directions. Penn Line
              > used a metal axle on their model. The flashing on the cab is plentiful.
              > Penn Line's model was very clean compared to this one."
              >
              > Thank
              > You,
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15579 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
              For that Baker valve gear--have you checked with Precision Scale Co for the
              old Kemtron kit? They had two styles. gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: <erieberk@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 11:19 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

              > Jim,
              >
              > Your Conover project is looking better all the time. Nice find, getting
              > the valve gear hanger. So, it's a two-piece cast item rather than a
              > stamped
              > metal part as on most other models. Your time spent on it sure shows as
              > it
              > looks great in place on the engine. You have a talent for metal working,
              > even though I know, part of that is just your desire to finish this model
              > as
              > best you can.
              >
              > As I've told you, I've seen the required Baker Valve Gear offered on eBay
              > a
              > few times in the past -- not all that often, but they have been posted.
              > Since the model will operate temporarily without having the valve gear
              > installed, maybe you'd want to wait until this valve gear comes along
              > rather than
              > going to the work of scratch building it. You've gone without having this
              > engine up until now; what's a little more time waiting for valve gear for
              > it.
              >
              > Your step-by-step progress with this engine is almost as if it's a Group
              > Project involving all of us, as it's great to just see the progress being
              > made
              > on it periodically and how it's advancing. It's like the ongoing Saga of
              > the S-1 <g>.
              > As continuing, Best of Luck with the engine -- it's getting there! Ray F.
              > W.</HTML>
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15580 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
              Hi Glenn,
                 I have checked out other makers like PSC Baker valve gear sets. I guess I'm a dreamer / optimist as I still search for the original valve gear Conover used. While I would like to find the original I might have to forget it and go with a similar item.
               
                                                                           Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:28 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

               

              For that Baker valve gear--have you checked with Precision Scale Co for the
              old Kemtron kit? They had two styles. gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: <erieberk@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 11:19 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

              > Jim,
              >
              > Your Conover project is looking better all the time. Nice find, getting
              > the valve gear hanger. So, it's a two-piece cast item rather than a
              > stamped
              > metal part as on most other models. Your time spent on it sure shows as
              > it
              > looks great in place on the engine. You have a talent for metal working,
              > even though I know, part of that is just your desire to finish this model
              > as
              > best you can.
              >
              > As I've told you, I've seen the required Baker Valve Gear offered on eBay
              > a
              > few times in the past -- not all that often, but they have been posted.
              > Since the model will operate temporarily without having the valve gear
              > installed, maybe you'd want to wait until this valve gear comes along
              > rather than
              > going to the work of scratch building it. You've gone without having this
              > engine up until now; what's a little more time waiting for valve gear for
              > it.
              >
              > Your step-by-step progress with this engine is almost as if it's a Group
              > Project involving all of us, as it's great to just see the progress being
              > made
              > on it periodically and how it's advancing. It's like the ongoing Saga of
              > the S-1 <g>.
              > As continuing, Best of Luck with the engine -- it's getting there! Ray F.
              > W.</HTML>
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15581 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball ?
               
                  Thanks to all especially Mr. Rice / Red Ball  for the responses about the Penn Line / Red Ball Ford tractor. I will pass them on to the person asking me.
               
                                                                                               Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:23 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball ?

               

              Howell Day acquired the Ford (when Penn Line was liquidated?). The molds were NOT in the Red Ball tooling we received in 1975 leading me to suspect he either (1) had a custom run made or (2) he purchased the remaining inventory. The first option is a pattern he followed at times. The most notable being Kurtz Kraft PS1 and reefer kits he had them run for him when their original run was exhausted. He marketed those kits as Red Ball.

              The second option was evident in many detail items he catalogued but did not have tools. All "Red Ball" Fords were pre 1975 and the wooden axle suggests to me the second option I proposed-- after running out of steel parts. Red Ball DID [and does] have tooling to produce a semi trailer so it is clearly an alert business decision on Day's part in an era when the only other semis available were Ulrich and their Kenworth tractor was "foreign" to anyone east of the Mississippi at that time.

              Parting lines & part design assure me the tooling for the Ford would not have been usable with Red Ball's casting machine. If Howell did acquire the mold he had to have had some outside vendor run the parts for him and the mold would have been located in their shop. He did not provide any such information when Red Ball was purchased from him.

              Merle Rice

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm wondering if the Red Ball is a LATER version of the Penn Line (which
              > would account for the extra flash as the dies wore.)
              >
              > Part of my reasoning comes from the fact that the prototype was introduced
              > in 1957, which is just about the time the Penn Line model came out. I know
              > it was Penn Line as early as 1958.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 4:09 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Red Ball ? [1 Attachment]
              >
              >
              >
              > Merle Rice
              > Model Railroad Warehouise / Red Ball
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Mr. Rice,
              >
              > Perhaps youi can give me information about this Ford tractor kit.
              > Specifically was it originally a Penn Line product, a Red Ball product ? A
              > friend of mine, who is a Penn Line collector, ask me if I knew. I can't
              > answer but seeking your help. Any information will be appreciated.
              >
              >
              > " Enclosed find a photo of a Red Ball product the must have been
              > acquired by Penn Line later on. Every thing is the same as Penn Line except
              > the wooden axle that you had to cut in length as the directions. Penn Line
              > used a metal axle on their model. The flashing on the cab is plentiful.
              > Penn Line's model was very clean compared to this one."
              >
              > Thank
              > You,
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15582 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
                 Thanks to everyone who made comments about my Conover project. I'm glad that the follow ups I post are enjoyable.
               
                                                                                                 Jim H 
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 7:34 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

               

              Jim- Your Conover "series" continues to make very enjoyable reading! Reading of your painstaking craftsmanship is an encouragement to my humble efforts. I see the makings of a book here- "The Conover Chronicles." Cheers- Richard White
                


              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: jimheck@...
              Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:13:24 -0500
              Subject: [vintageHO] Big Conover step [3 Attachments]

               
              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
               

               
               
              Ray F W, All,
               
                        Some pictures of a big step on my Conover rebuild. Having found the original valve gear hangers ( 2 parts ) and after getting them cleaned and holes drilled I now have been able to assemble them into the one piece part called for in the plans.  While it might not look like a big thing it took a while to create the cross pieces that had to be soldered ( for strength )  between the pieces.
               
                  First picture will show the two separate parts getting lined up on the frame. I couldn't drill the holes in the frame till it was all one piece. ( You will notice in the background the stack fixed on the boiler and the headlight has been installed.)
               
                  Second picture shows the now one piece part in the position it will go. After I clean up the part better with a final smooth sanding to take out most scratches I will be able to mark, drill and tap the frame to bolt the piece on. ( Excuse the slightly longer side rod bolts on this side as I am waiting for the right size to arrive. Yo will notice other side has the right size. )
               
                 Final picture shows a close up of the one piece part with the cross pieces I had to make, shape and solder on. Hopefully soon I will decide what valve gear I will use if I can't find the original. I'm still searching.  I have now started to blow up and "copy" the individual valve gear parts from the little Conover catalog just in case. Slow progress on that end but I will now start adding details to the boiler and tender in between.
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
               
               
               


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15583 From: Nelson Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
              Jim, just echoing everyone else in saying that it's looking incredible. The valve gear hanger looks great, and I'd never know there was any damage to the stack.

              You may have covered this, but what sort of putty or filler did you use to build up the steamchest? Was it that metalized stuff?

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Ray F W, All,
              >
              > Some pictures of a big step on my Conover rebuild. Having found the original valve gear hangers ( 2 parts ) and after getting them cleaned and holes drilled I now have been able to assemble them into the one piece part called for in the plans. While it might not look like a big thing it took a while to create the cross pieces that had to be soldered ( for strength ) between the pieces.
              >
              > First picture will show the two separate parts getting lined up on the frame. I couldn't drill the holes in the frame till it was all one piece. ( You will notice in the background the stack fixed on the boiler and the headlight has been installed.)
              >
              > Second picture shows the now one piece part in the position it will go. After I clean up the part better with a final smooth sanding to take out most scratches I will be able to mark, drill and tap the frame to bolt the piece on. ( Excuse the slightly longer side rod bolts on this side as I am waiting for the right size to arrive. Yo will notice other side has the right size. )
              >
              > Final picture shows a close up of the one piece part with the cross pieces I had to make, shape and solder on. Hopefully soon I will decide what valve gear I will use if I can't find the original. I'm still searching. I have now started to blow up and "copy" the individual valve gear parts from the little Conover catalog just in case. Slow progress on that end but I will now start adding details to the boiler and tender in between.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15584 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
              When did Conover make the loco kit?  I believe that emtron made the Baker gear in the fifties. 
               
              I am glad to see anybody building any of the old brass/bronze kits.  Skme years ago I built up a Lobaugh 0-6-0  and a Saginaw PRR 4-6-0; both pre-war kits--and several Kemtron On3 2-8-0's 
              gj

              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 9:07 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

              Hi Glenn,
                 I have checked out other makers like PSC Baker valve gear sets. I guess I'm a dreamer / optimist as I still search for the original valve gear Conover used. While I would like to find the original I might have to forget it and go with a similar item.
               
                                                                           Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:28 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

               

              For that Baker valve gear--have you checked with Precision Scale Co for the
              old Kemtron kit? They had two styles. gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: <erieberk@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 11:19 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

              > Jim,
              >
              > Your Conover project is looking better all the time. Nice find, getting
              > the valve gear hanger. So, it's a two-piece cast item rather than a
              > stamped
              > metal part as on most other models. Your time spent on it sure shows as
              > it
              > looks great in place on the engine. You have a talent for metal working,
              > even though I know, part of that is just your desire to finish this model
              > as
              > best you can.
              >
              > As I've told you, I've seen the required Baker Valve Gear offered on eBay
              > a
              > few times in the past -- not all that often, but they have been posted.
              > Since the model will operate temporarily without having the valve gear
              > installed, maybe you'd want to wait until this valve gear comes along
              > rather than
              > going to the work of scratch building it. You've gone without having this
              > engine up until now; what's a little more time waiting for valve gear for
              > it.
              >
              > Your step-by-step progress with this engine is almost as if it's a Group
              > Project involving all of us, as it's great to just see the progress being
              > made
              > on it periodically and how it's advancing. It's like the ongoing Saga of
              > the S-1 <g>.
              > As continuing, Best of Luck with the engine -- it's getting there! Ray F.
              > W.</HTML>
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15585 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
               
              Glenn,
               
                   Best guesstament is 1938. This is based on a 1939 Conover catalog that Ray F W won on ebay. Very limited information other then that catalog is available so it could have been a little earlier.  Trying to search the history has been kind of futile. There is some "discussion "  of parts, using the original sand cast molds,  being created after the war. Maybe by Conover, who also had a 4-4-0 and formed a partnership with Laconia, or someone else who was able to obtain the molds. 
               
                                                                                                  Jim H 
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 12:40 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

               

              When did Conover make the loco kit?  I believe that emtron made the Baker gear in the fifties. 
               
              I am glad to see anybody building any of the old brass/bronze kits.  Skme years ago I built up a Lobaugh 0-6-0  and a Saginaw PRR 4-6-0; both pre-war kits--and several Kemtron On3 2-8-0's 
              gj

              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 9:07 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

              Hi Glenn,
                 I have checked out other makers like PSC Baker valve gear sets. I guess I'm a dreamer / optimist as I still search for the original valve gear Conover used. While I would like to find the original I might have to forget it and go with a similar item.
               
                                                                           Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:28 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

               

              For that Baker valve gear--have you checked with Precision Scale Co for the
              old Kemtron kit? They had two styles. gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: <erieberk@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 11:19 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Big Conover step

              > Jim,
              >
              > Your Conover project is looking better all the time. Nice find, getting
              > the valve gear hanger. So, it's a two-piece cast item rather than a
              > stamped
              > metal part as on most other models. Your time spent on it sure shows as
              > it
              > looks great in place on the engine. You have a talent for metal working,
              > even though I know, part of that is just your desire to finish this model
              > as
              > best you can.
              >
              > As I've told you, I've seen the required Baker Valve Gear offered on eBay
              > a
              > few times in the past -- not all that often, but they have been posted.
              > Since the model will operate temporarily without having the valve gear
              > installed, maybe you'd want to wait until this valve gear comes along
              > rather than
              > going to the work of scratch building it. You've gone without having this
              > engine up until now; what's a little more time waiting for valve gear for
              > it.
              >
              > Your step-by-step progress with this engine is almost as if it's a Group
              > Project involving all of us, as it's great to just see the progress being
              > made
              > on it periodically and how it's advancing. It's like the ongoing Saga of
              > the S-1 <g>.
              > As continuing, Best of Luck with the engine -- it's getting there! Ray F.
              > W.</HTML>
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15586 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
               
               
                  I like to use Permatex Permaoxy 4 minute Multi-Metal Epoxy. I'm sure everyone has their favorite but I have found this the best for me. Scuff up the metal where you are going to apply. Rub the first layer in good with a toothpick not just laying it on the metal. Build up as much or as little as you want.  I found by wetting my fingers I can shape it before it sets. I can rough sand and shape it better in just over 2 hours. The next day you can finish doing what you want. I've used it like body putty,  built up incomplete castings or low spots like the steam chest or doing little things like filing holes that are oblong or off center and then re drill.
               
                  After about a week of sitting it is rock hard. If applied right it can't be knocked off easily. ( Not to be used where a lot of stress might be applied ). As I said I found it to be useful in many ways, becomes impervious to liquids, sands really smooth like spot putty and takes paint no problem. I have never seen it shrink, crack or start to pick up although I don't recommend a large amount of heat be applied close to where it is used.
               
                                                                       Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson
              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 12:25 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Big Conover step

               

              Jim, just echoing everyone else in saying that it's looking incredible. The valve gear hanger looks great, and I'd never know there was any damage to the stack.

              You may have covered this, but what sort of putty or filler did you use to build up the steamchest? Was it that metalized stuff?

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Ray F W, All,
              >
              > Some pictures of a big step on my Conover rebuild. Having found the original valve gear hangers ( 2 parts ) and after getting them cleaned and holes drilled I now have been able to assemble them into the one piece part called for in the plans. While it might not look like a big thing it took a while to create the cross pieces that had to be soldered ( for strength ) between the pieces.
              >
              > First picture will show the two separate parts getting lined up on the frame. I couldn't drill the holes in the frame till it was all one piece. ( You will notice in the background the stack fixed on the boiler and the headlight has been installed.)
              >
              > Second picture shows the now one piece part in the position it will go. After I clean up the part better with a final smooth sanding to take out most scratches I will be able to mark, drill and tap the frame to bolt the piece on. ( Excuse the slightly longer side rod bolts on this side as I am waiting for the right size to arrive. Yo will notice other side has the right size. )
              >
              > Final picture shows a close up of the one piece part with the cross pieces I had to make, shape and solder on. Hopefully soon I will decide what valve gear I will use if I can't find the original. I'm still searching. I have now started to blow up and "copy" the individual valve gear parts from the little Conover catalog just in case. Slow progress on that end but I will now start adding details to the boiler and tender in between.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15587 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor [2 Attachments]
              I have never seen an actual Penn Line cab (although I do have both
              trailers). Every photo I've seen (including the ad in the September 1958
              Model Railroader that I'm looking at right now) however does NOT have the
              mirrors.

              The only one I've seen with the mirrors and horn is the Revell kit in
              plastic (which incidentally would also have the 1958 style dual headlights)

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery'

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:06 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor [2 Attachments]


              Hi Don, All,

              Thanks for your response . It makes perfect sense when you look at the
              dates. I'm sending other pictures sent to me that were part of the original
              request. It seems there were two different type runs of the same item but I
              have no idea. Any thoughts about this ?


              " It has always been my belief that Penn Line had two molds of this
              Ford cab over engine . In all my years of collecting I have only ever found
              this one cab that is pictured in these two shots of the two cabs. There is
              a difference with the one having west coast mirrors / air horn on cab roof .
              Except for that they are basically the same. I know you can not see it on
              the photos but on the Penn Line model you can see little indentations where
              the mirrors were mounted but maybe broke off during the casting of truck.
              Were these additional parts you added ? There is no visible marks on roof
              where the air horn might have gone. I was just wondering if this was also
              made by Red Ball at one time. "

              Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15588 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
              What is your source for the Permatex Permaoxy 4 minute Multi-Metal Epoxy?
              Don Staton in VA
              ===========================================================

              On 12/8/2010 2:38 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               
               
                  I like to use Permatex Permaoxy 4 minute Multi-Metal Epoxy. I'm sure everyone has their favorite but I have found this the best for me. Scuff up the metal where you are going to apply. Rub the first layer in good with a toothpick not just laying it on the metal. Build up as much or as little as you want.  I found by wetting my fingers I can shape it before it sets. I can rough sand and shape it better in just over 2 hours. The next day you can finish doing what you want. I've used it like body putty,  built up incomplete castings or low spots like the steam chest or doing little things like filing holes that are oblong or off center and then re drill.
               
                  After about a week of sitting it is rock hard. If applied right it can't be knocked off easily. ( Not to be used where a lot of stress might be applied ). As I said I found it to be useful in many ways, becomes impervious to liquids, sands really smooth like spot putty and takes paint no problem. I have never seen it shrink, crack or start to pick up although I don't recommend a large amount of heat be applied close to where it is used.
               
                                                                       Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15589 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor
              The Revell Ford looks similar, but the front and grill area are
              completely different, as is the fuel tank arrangement. Again, see
              <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/carcarrier.html>
              for the differences.

              Mike

              On 12/8/2010 3:30 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
              > I have never seen an actual Penn Line cab (although I do have both
              > trailers). Every photo I've seen (including the ad in the September 1958
              > Model Railroader that I'm looking at right now) however does NOT have the
              > mirrors.
              >
              > The only one I've seen with the mirrors and horn is the Revell kit in
              > plastic (which incidentally would also have the 1958 style dual headlights)
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net>
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery'
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@... <mailto:jimheck%40losch.net>>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:06 AM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor [2 Attachments]
              >
              > Hi Don, All,
              >
              > Thanks for your response . It makes perfect sense when you look at the
              > dates. I'm sending other pictures sent to me that were part of the original
              > request. It seems there were two different type runs of the same item but I
              > have no idea. Any thoughts about this ?
              >
              > " It has always been my belief that Penn Line had two molds of this
              > Ford cab over engine . In all my years of collecting I have only ever found
              > this one cab that is pictured in these two shots of the two cabs. There is
              > a difference with the one having west coast mirrors / air horn on cab
              > roof .
              > Except for that they are basically the same. I know you can not see it on
              > the photos but on the Penn Line model you can see little indentations where
              > the mirrors were mounted but maybe broke off during the casting of truck.
              > Were these additional parts you added ? There is no visible marks on roof
              > where the air horn might have gone. I was just wondering if this was also
              > made by Red Ball at one time. "
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15590 From: jim heckard Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
               Don S,
               
                         I buy it at a local automotive store called Advance Auto Parts. I think it would be a normal item both in auto stores and places like Lowes, etc. $ 6 for a two part mixture ( black and white ) but in the same tube.
               
                                                              Jim H
               
                 
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 4:49 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Big Conover step

               

              What is your source for the Permatex Permaoxy 4 minute Multi-Metal Epoxy?
              Don Staton in VA
              ===========================================================

              On 12/8/2010 2:38 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               
               
                  I like to use Permatex Permaoxy 4 minute Multi-Metal Epoxy. I'm sure everyone has their favorite but I have found this the best for me. Scuff up the metal where you are going to apply. Rub the first layer in good with a toothpick not just laying it on the metal. Build up as much or as little as you want.  I found by wetting my fingers I can shape it before it sets. I can rough sand and shape it better in just over 2 hours. The next day you can finish doing what you want. I've used it like body putty,  built up incomplete castings or low spots like the steam chest or doing little things like filing holes that are oblong or off center and then re drill.
               
                  After about a week of sitting it is rock hard. If applied right it can't be knocked off easily. ( Not to be used where a lot of stress might be applied ). As I said I found it to be useful in many ways, becomes impervious to liquids, sands really smooth like spot putty and takes paint no problem. I have never seen it shrink, crack or start to pick up although I don't recommend a large amount of heat be applied close to where it is used.
               
                                                                       Jim H


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15591 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/8/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
              Thank you, Jim.
              Don Staton in VA.
              ============================

              On 12/8/2010 5:36 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               Don S,
               
                         I buy it at a local automotive store called Advance Auto Parts. I think it would be a normal item both in auto stores and places like Lowes, etc. $ 6 for a two part mixture ( black and white ) but in the same tube.
               
                                                              Jim H
               
                 


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15592 From: Jay Date: 12/9/2010
              Subject: Trackside Specialties Connection Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tra
              Hi All,

              I think I may be able to add a little more to our discussion of that very neat Penn Line die cast zamac, (not lead based soft white metal), Ford COE tractor.

              First, I believe Howell Day noted in some of his literature or newsletters that these Ford COE tractors were manufactured by Penn Line. I will try to do the search of which issue tonight.

              How did Day get them? I have not seen any reference that Howell Day attended the Penn Line bankruptcy auction, but he may well have attended as an interested observer. I have never seen a reference noting him as a purchaser of any stock.

              But his central NJ location was only several miles away from Trackside Specialties Vincent Waterman, (Vintage HO member Jim's father). It is conceivable that he could have obtained them from Waterman, who was a major purchaser of Penn Line parts at the auction. Howell Day/Red Ball also sold some of the well detailed, Penn Line one piece die cast zamac generators for flat car loads at the same time.

              Another possible Howell Day-Red Ball/Vincent Waterman Trackside Specialties connection is that it appears that Trackside Specialties later sold some parts originally imported from England by Red Ball's M. Dale Newton in the mid-to-late 1940's!

              These were very distinctive 45' spoked steam locomotive wheelsets (without counterweights), with near to scale flanges. The spoked wheel centers were molded of clear plastic, while the rims were turned nickel silver, mounted on steel axles. Newton intended to use these in his never produced line of steam locomotives, likely in a trailing truck. In an old newsletter, he spoke of his difficulties in importing them, implying "never again."

              The were listed occasionally by Red Ball, and my guess is that the unsold parts must have went to Howell Day in the late 1950's when he bought the line. Not sure, but will check if Day ever listed them as available. But these wheelsets later showed up in Trackside Specialties packaging in the late 1960's/early 1970's. Since Mr. Waterman specialized in steam locomotive parts, they were a natural for his line. Later still, they were offered for a while by the new/present owner of T/S!

              So it appears that there may have been some trading or dealing between Howell Day and Trackside Specialties.

              Perhaps Jim Waterman might be able to shed some additional light on this possibility and may remember if his dad and Howell Day had any business deals.


              W Jay W




              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              >
              > The Revell Ford looks similar, but the front and grill area are
              > completely different, as is the fuel tank arrangement. Again, see
              > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/carcarrier.html>
              > for the differences.
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 12/8/2010 3:30 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
              > > I have never seen an actual Penn Line cab (although I do have both
              > > trailers). Every photo I've seen (including the ad in the September 1958
              > > Model Railroader that I'm looking at right now) however does NOT have the
              > > mirrors.
              > >
              > > The only one I've seen with the mirrors and horn is the Revell kit in
              > > plastic (which incidentally would also have the 1958 style dual headlights)
              > >
              > > Don
              > >
              > > Don Dellmann
              > > don.dellmann@... <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net>
              > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > Owner
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery'
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@... <mailto:jimheck%40losch.net>>
              > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:06 AM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor [2 Attachments]
              > >
              > > Hi Don, All,
              > >
              > > Thanks for your response . It makes perfect sense when you look at the
              > > dates. I'm sending other pictures sent to me that were part of the original
              > > request. It seems there were two different type runs of the same item but I
              > > have no idea. Any thoughts about this ?
              > >
              > > " It has always been my belief that Penn Line had two molds of this
              > > Ford cab over engine . In all my years of collecting I have only ever found
              > > this one cab that is pictured in these two shots of the two cabs. There is
              > > a difference with the one having west coast mirrors / air horn on cab
              > > roof .
              > > Except for that they are basically the same. I know you can not see it on
              > > the photos but on the Penn Line model you can see little indentations where
              > > the mirrors were mounted but maybe broke off during the casting of truck.
              > > Were these additional parts you added ? There is no visible marks on roof
              > > where the air horn might have gone. I was just wondering if this was also
              > > made by Red Ball at one time. "
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15593 From: Jay Date: 12/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
              Hi Jim H., Just catching up on the Conover project today, -in that third photo, where it may be seen alone, that valve gear hanger looks like a piece of fine hand crafted jewelry! W Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Ray F W, All,
              >
              > Some pictures of a big step on my Conover rebuild. Having found the original valve gear hangers ( 2 parts ) and after getting them cleaned and holes drilled I now have been able to assemble them into the one piece part called for in the plans. While it might not look like a big thing it took a while to create the cross pieces that had to be soldered ( for strength ) between the pieces.
              >
              > First picture will show the two separate parts getting lined up on the frame. I couldn't drill the holes in the frame till it was all one piece. ( You will notice in the background the stack fixed on the boiler and the headlight has been installed.)
              >
              > Second picture shows the now one piece part in the position it will go. After I clean up the part better with a final smooth sanding to take out most scratches I will be able to mark, drill and tap the frame to bolt the piece on. ( Excuse the slightly longer side rod bolts on this side as I am waiting for the right size to arrive. Yo will notice other side has the right size. )
              >
              > Final picture shows a close up of the one piece part with the cross pieces I had to make, shape and solder on. Hopefully soon I will decide what valve gear I will use if I can't find the original. I'm still searching. I have now started to blow up and "copy" the individual valve gear parts from the little Conover catalog just in case. Slow progress on that end but I will now start adding details to the boiler and tender in between.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15594 From: Jay Date: 12/9/2010
              Subject: Re: Use for Red Ball Turnbuckle "Lugs"
              Hi All, With identification of assembled vintage models being even more problematic for those outside of our group. I have made it a practice to use the marked "Red Ball" turnbuckle lug as a sort of ID/nameplate, gluing it to an inconspicuous place on the floor of a completed model. Hopefully, it will aid in ID of the model after it passes from my collection. W Jay W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes--the six parts being described with "Red Ball" on the center "lug" are turnbuckles. They were the only turnbuckles to be had (as undividually available parts) for decades so an awfully lot of them were made and sold. Note of caution regarding ID of unknown kits: These and various other (ends, doors,bolsters) were also sold in bulk to other specialty kitmakers for use in their kits. Some such parts do have the Red Ball name as well as the characteristic cutoff ( center on back) from the [metal feed]slug. They are known to have been copied -PIRATED- [for rubber mold duplication] by some short lived kitmakers and two still in existence. And, yes before someone asks, the turnbucklews were among the parts also run in styrene [using the same molds] and sold under the Cannomball brand by us when we made Red Ball metal/wood kits.
              >
              > Merle Rice
              > Model RR Warehouse
              > Manufacturer of Red Ball 1975-2009
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15595 From: Nelson Date: 12/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
              Thanks, Jim. Is the Permatex as safe & effective with plastic? Does it act as a solvent with styrene? I wouldn't expect an epoxy resin to do that, but I think automotive products like Bondo are aggressive.

              Nelson



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Don S,
              >
              > I buy it at a local automotive store called Advance Auto Parts. I think it would be a normal item both in auto stores and places like Lowes, etc. $ 6 for a two part mixture ( black and white ) but in the same tube.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Donald R. Staton
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 4:49 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Big Conover step
              >
              >
              >
              > What is your source for the Permatex Permaoxy 4 minute Multi-Metal Epoxy?
              > Don Staton in VA
              > ===========================================================
              >
              > On 12/8/2010 2:38 PM, jim heckard wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I like to use Permatex Permaoxy 4 minute Multi-Metal Epoxy. I'm sure everyone has their favorite but I have found this the best for me. Scuff up the metal where you are going to apply. Rub the first layer in good with a toothpick not just laying it on the metal. Build up as much or as little as you want. I found by wetting my fingers I can shape it before it sets. I can rough sand and shape it better in just over 2 hours. The next day you can finish doing what you want. I've used it like body putty, built up incomplete castings or low spots like the steam chest or doing little things like filing holes that are oblong or off center and then re drill.
              >
              > After about a week of sitting it is rock hard. If applied right it can't be knocked off easily. ( Not to be used where a lot of stress might be applied ). As I said I found it to be useful in many ways, becomes impervious to liquids, sands really smooth like spot putty and takes paint no problem. I have never seen it shrink, crack or start to pick up although I don't recommend a large amount of heat be applied close to where it is used.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15596 From: jim heckard Date: 12/10/2010
              Subject: Re: Big Conover step
                Nelson,
               
                       I can't answer your question. I don't remember ever using it on anything but metal products which has included cast ( Zamac), lead, brass and bronze. Can't tell you if it would react with plastics. Just for my own knowledge I will mix a little later and apply to some styrene and some Bakelite plastic to see. If I get a chance to try it I'll let you know the results.
               
                            I just remembered where I did use it at least one time with plastic. When I was building the 4-4-4-2 Beast I had to add a second sand dome. I could not find an exact match to the one already cast on so I got a Mantua plastic dome. I filled the inside of the dome with this epoxy because I knew I would have to reshape the upper part to match the already cast on one. It didn't distort the dome and later after sanding in the shape, having plastic and epoxy edges showing together there was no melting problem and again it  " feathered " together easily that after painting you can't tell edges even close up.
               
                                                               Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson
              Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 12:16 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Big Conover step

               

              Thanks, Jim. Is the Permatex as safe & effective with plastic? Does it act as a solvent with styrene? I wouldn't expect an epoxy resin to do that, but I think automotive products like Bondo are aggressive.

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Don S,
              >
              > I buy it at a local automotive store called Advance Auto Parts. I think it would be a normal item both in auto stores and places like Lowes, etc. $ 6 for a two part mixture ( black and white ) but in the same tube.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Donald R. Staton
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 4:49 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Big Conover step
              >
              >
              >
              > What is your source for the Permatex Permaoxy 4 minute Multi-Metal Epoxy?
              > Don Staton in VA
              > ===========================================================
              >
              > On 12/8/2010 2:38 PM, jim heckard wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I like to use Permatex Permaoxy 4 minute Multi-Metal Epoxy. I'm sure everyone has their favorite but I have found this the best for me. Scuff up the metal where you are going to apply. Rub the first layer in good with a toothpick not just laying it on the metal. Build up as much or as little as you want. I found by wetting my fingers I can shape it before it sets. I can rough sand and shape it better in just over 2 hours. The next day you can finish doing what you want. I've used it like body putty, built up incomplete castings or low spots like the steam chest or doing little things like filing holes that are oblong or off center and then re drill.
              >
              > After about a week of sitting it is rock hard. If applied right it can't be knocked off easily. ( Not to be used where a lot of stress might be applied ). As I said I found it to be useful in many ways, becomes impervious to liquids, sands really smooth like spot putty and takes paint no problem. I have never seen it shrink, crack or start to pick up although I don't recommend a large amount of heat be applied close to where it is used.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15597 From: JimW Date: 12/10/2010
              Subject: Trackside Specialties Connection Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tra
              Jay

              My father, Vincent Waterman, picked up most of the unused parts inventory of the Penn Line. I am pretty sure that Howell Day was not there on the day of the big auction, but could not be sure (I was not yet 5 years old)

              I do remember cartons full of the die cast cabs that you mention. I think I still have a couple in boxes somewhere. I also have some promotional 8 by 10's picturing the cab with the trailer, also a ramp that was used to get the trailer off the flatcar. We also had lots of the generator castings as well. Some painted, some not (same for the cabs). I'm sure my dad was glad to unload some of it, this stuff didn't move that well.

              We had parts for each item in abundance at one time.

              My dad did deal with Howell Day, and I know that they swapped parts between them, but not sure about the Ford cabs.

              If I get a minute, I'll scan in one of the pictures so you can see how the setup was marketed by Penn Line.

              Regarding the english drivers, my dad was always picking up lots of detail parts from various sources, Westside and Sunset Models for brass, what was left of Lobaugh as about the 4th owner, and from other parts dealers hanging it up.

              Jim Waterman


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jay" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi All,
              > s
              > I think I may be able to add a little more to our discussion of that very neat Penn Line die cast zamacd
              >
              > First, I believe Howell Day noted in some of his literature or newsletters that these Ford COE tractors were manufactured by Penn Line. I will try to do the search of which issue tonight.
              >
              > How did Day get them? I have not seen any reference that Howell Day attended the Penn Line bankruptcy auction, but he may well have attended as an interested observer. I have never seen a reference noting him as a purchaser of any stock.
              >
              > But his central NJ location was only several miles away from Trackside Specialties Vincent Waterman, (Vintage HO member Jim's father). It is conceivable that he could have obtained them from Waterman, who was a major purchaser of Penn Line parts at the auction. Howell Day/Red Ball also sold some of the well detailed, Penn Line one piece die cast zamac generators for flat car loads at the same time.
              >
              > Another possible Howell Day-Red Ball/Vincent Waterman Trackside Specialties connection is that it appears that Trackside Specialties later sold some parts originally imported from England by Red Ball's M. Dale Newton in the mid-to-late 1940's!
              >
              > These were very distinctive 45' spoked steam locomotive wheelsets (without counterweights), with near to scale flanges. The spoked wheel centers were molded of clear plastic, while the rims were turned nickel silver, mounted on steel axles. Newton intended to use these in his never produced line of steam locomotives, likely in a trailing truck. In an old newsletter, he spoke of his difficulties in importing them, implying "never again."
              >
              > The were listed occasionally by Red Ball, and my guess is that the unsold parts must have went to Howell Day in the late 1950's when he bought the line. Not sure, but will check if Day ever listed them as available. But these wheelsets later showed up in Trackside Specialties packaging in the late 1960's/early 1970's. Since Mr. Waterman specialized in steam locomotive parts, they were a natural for his line. Later still, they were offered for a while by the new/present owner of T/S!
              >
              > So it appears that there may have been some trading or dealing between Howell Day and Trackside Specialties.
              >
              > Perhaps Jim Waterman might be able to shed some additional light on this possibility and may remember if his dad and Howell Day had any business deals.
              >
              >
              > W Jay W
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The Revell Ford looks similar, but the front and grill area are
              > > completely different, as is the fuel tank arrangement. Again, see
              > > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/carcarrier.html>
              > > for the differences.
              > >
              > > Mike
              > >
              > > On 12/8/2010 3:30 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
              > > > I have never seen an actual Penn Line cab (although I do have both
              > > > trailers). Every photo I've seen (including the ad in the September 1958
              > > > Model Railroader that I'm looking at right now) however does NOT have the
              > > > mirrors.
              > > >
              > > > The only one I've seen with the mirrors and horn is the Revell kit in
              > > > plastic (which incidentally would also have the 1958 style dual headlights)
              > > >
              > > > Don
              > > >
              > > > Don Dellmann
              > > > don.dellmann@ <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net>
              > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > > Owner
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery'
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@ <mailto:jimheck%40losch.net>>
              > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:06 AM
              > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor [2 Attachments]
              > > >
              > > > Hi Don, All,
              > > >
              > > > Thanks for your response . It makes perfect sense when you look at the
              > > > dates. I'm sending other pictures sent to me that were part of the original
              > > > request. It seems there were two different type runs of the same item but I
              > > > have no idea. Any thoughts about this ?
              > > >
              > > > " It has always been my belief that Penn Line had two molds of this
              > > > Ford cab over engine . In all my years of collecting I have only ever found
              > > > this one cab that is pictured in these two shots of the two cabs. There is
              > > > a difference with the one having west coast mirrors / air horn on cab
              > > > roof .
              > > > Except for that they are basically the same. I know you can not see it on
              > > > the photos but on the Penn Line model you can see little indentations where
              > > > the mirrors were mounted but maybe broke off during the casting of truck.
              > > > Were these additional parts you added ? There is no visible marks on roof
              > > > where the air horn might have gone. I was just wondering if this was also
              > > > made by Red Ball at one time. "
              > > >
              > > > Jim H
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15598 From: jim heckard Date: 12/11/2010
              Subject: Started Conover Details
               
               
                         While I wait for some parts I have started to do some of the fine detail work on my Conover project. I was able to create the tender top walkway hand rails and attach. Waiting for ladder material and a brake cylinder to arrive.Then I will only need the coupler and tender is complete as per the original 1938 kit. First picture will show both handrails on the tender.
               
                   Second picture shows the front boiler handrails made and on ( both sides ). The bottom hole near the front of the boiler is for the bracing rods that goes to the pilot.
               
                   Last two pictures are of the original double air compressors which I am trying to clean up to use. If you look real close you will see that they are slightly different in the position of the tabs for attaching to the boiler. I think it is kind of odd that Conover created two separate molds to do this to match up to the cast on boiler brackets. I would have thought it would have been easier just to cast these brackets right and only have one air compressor part you would use twice.
               
                  Finally after switching positions of the flanged and blind drivers I can now "push" ( no motor yet ) the engine around 18" radius curves although not really planning to run this full time on my platform. Believe me, especially with the time I have spent on it and the rarity of the engine, it will be for show.
               
                                                                                            Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15599 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/12/2010
              Subject: Re: Started Conover Details [4 Attachments]
              Hi Jim,

              I saw your latest email of last night, right now (this morning), and will
              be replying to it -- but first, I want to finish replying to you email from
              two days ago which my 'Puter did not allow me to do, and which I couldn't
              finish up on.

              Ray</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15600 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Started Conover Details [4 Attachments]
              Jim,

              Thanks for sending the latest pics/attachments. The Conover polished cast
              brass tender is a real gem. Probably any model of cast brass is something
              that stands out. I had a meeting on Friday night of my local NRHS (National
              Railroad Historical Society) Chapter which, for December was a more relaxed
              Christmas holiday/party meeting at which we were encouraged to bring any
              model to, for display as part of getting into the Christmas spirit of things.
              I brought my Knapp cast brass Mountain. At first, and from a distance,
              some other member thought it was just another formed brass Japanese import
              until they got up closer. Then, they were astonished to see what it was really
              made of and even more surprised when I told them it was American made!

              Looks like that tender may take a Varney-style (or Harry Garrett) cast
              brass Vandy tender top walkway if you could find an extra. What you fabricated
              looks positively great though.

              Nice job on the front boiler handrails -- REAL nice job.

              Yeah, kind of odd that Conover made two different air compressors, each
              with a slightly different tab. I wonder what their reasoning was behind this.

              On the Conover flanged vs the blind drivers, I may have told you -- or you
              may already have known -- the 1st, 3rd and 5th sets of drivers are blind and
              the 2nd and 4th sets are flanged. Glad to hear it rolls smoothly so far
              (up to this point where you still need to install the valve gear). I presume
              you have the Side Rods installed. Were you able to find Main Rods for the
              engine?

              Best, Ray</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15601 From: Askerberg Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Nice Penn Line find
              The planets aligned for me Saturday at a swap meet. I picked up a Penn
              Line E6 Atlantic in unbuilt kit form. I'm guessing the vintage is the
              early to mid fifties.

              As a kid in the fifties modeling the PRR, I lusted after an H9
              consolidation with an E6 being an unattainable dream. I never got the
              H9 then either, but I did pick up one nicely build a few years ago. Now
              I have the E6 also. The question in my mind is should I assemble the
              kit or leave it as is. It's tough to run it in the box, so perhaps I
              will assemble it.

              My John English coach and combine would look pretty good behind that
              E6. In fact I have a noname porthole baggage car that would also fit in
              that train very nicely. The only problem is it is painted PC green -
              ugh! Repainting is a bit of a challenge because the portholes are
              glazed making masking a special challenge.

              I've placed photos of the E6 in my "AL2's stuff" folder.

              Al Askerberg
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15602 From: Jay Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Trackside Specialties Connection Re: Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tra
              Hi Jim W.

              Thanks for the repy and information confirming that your father and Howell Day knew each other and did conduct some business between them. And I also think that Howell Day was well known enough at the time, that his presence at the auction would have been noted in the reports in the model press, which it was not. So I am comfortable in speculating that those Penn Line Ford and GM generator models that Howel day later sold MAY have passsed from your dad to him.

              Yes, I think several of us would be interested in seeing scans of those photos when you have the time! By the way, that Penn Line piggyback ramp was extremly accurate as well, except for the toy-like tires. A photo in a 1960's Model Railroader shows the prototype ramp, and the steel side bracing is identical to the PL model.

              W. Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "JimW" <Watermaj@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jay
              >
              > My father, Vincent Waterman, picked up most of the unused parts inventory of the Penn Line. I am pretty sure that Howell Day was not there on the day of the big auction, but could not be sure (I was not yet 5 years old)
              >
              > I do remember cartons full of the die cast cabs that you mention. I think I still have a couple in boxes somewhere. I also have some promotional 8 by 10's picturing the cab with the trailer, also a ramp that was used to get the trailer off the flatcar. We also had lots of the generator castings as well. Some painted, some not (same for the cabs). I'm sure my dad was glad to unload some of it, this stuff didn't move that well.
              >
              > We had parts for each item in abundance at one time.
              >
              > My dad did deal with Howell Day, and I know that they swapped parts between them, but not sure about the Ford cabs.
              >
              > If I get a minute, I'll scan in one of the pictures so you can see how the setup was marketed by Penn Line.
              >
              > Regarding the english drivers, my dad was always picking up lots of detail parts from various sources, Westside and Sunset Models for brass, what was left of Lobaugh as about the 4th owner, and from other parts dealers hanging it up.
              >
              > Jim Waterman
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jay" <the_plainsman@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi All,
              > > s
              > > I think I may be able to add a little more to our discussion of that very neat Penn Line die cast zamacd
              > >
              > > First, I believe Howell Day noted in some of his literature or newsletters that these Ford COE tractors were manufactured by Penn Line. I will try to do the search of which issue tonight.
              > >
              > > How did Day get them? I have not seen any reference that Howell Day attended the Penn Line bankruptcy auction, but he may well have attended as an interested observer. I have never seen a reference noting him as a purchaser of any stock.
              > >
              > > But his central NJ location was only several miles away from Trackside Specialties Vincent Waterman, (Vintage HO member Jim's father). It is conceivable that he could have obtained them from Waterman, who was a major purchaser of Penn Line parts at the auction. Howell Day/Red Ball also sold some of the well detailed, Penn Line one piece die cast zamac generators for flat car loads at the same time.
              > >
              > > Another possible Howell Day-Red Ball/Vincent Waterman Trackside Specialties connection is that it appears that Trackside Specialties later sold some parts originally imported from England by Red Ball's M. Dale Newton in the mid-to-late 1940's!
              > >
              > > These were very distinctive 45' spoked steam locomotive wheelsets (without counterweights), with near to scale flanges. The spoked wheel centers were molded of clear plastic, while the rims were turned nickel silver, mounted on steel axles. Newton intended to use these in his never produced line of steam locomotives, likely in a trailing truck. In an old newsletter, he spoke of his difficulties in importing them, implying "never again."
              > >
              > > The were listed occasionally by Red Ball, and my guess is that the unsold parts must have went to Howell Day in the late 1950's when he bought the line. Not sure, but will check if Day ever listed them as available. But these wheelsets later showed up in Trackside Specialties packaging in the late 1960's/early 1970's. Since Mr. Waterman specialized in steam locomotive parts, they were a natural for his line. Later still, they were offered for a while by the new/present owner of T/S!
              > >
              > > So it appears that there may have been some trading or dealing between Howell Day and Trackside Specialties.
              > >
              > > Perhaps Jim Waterman might be able to shed some additional light on this possibility and may remember if his dad and Howell Day had any business deals.
              > >
              > >
              > > W Jay W
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > The Revell Ford looks similar, but the front and grill area are
              > > > completely different, as is the fuel tank arrangement. Again, see
              > > > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/carcarrier.html>
              > > > for the differences.
              > > >
              > > > Mike
              > > >
              > > > On 12/8/2010 3:30 PM, Don Dellmann wrote:
              > > > > I have never seen an actual Penn Line cab (although I do have both
              > > > > trailers). Every photo I've seen (including the ad in the September 1958
              > > > > Model Railroader that I'm looking at right now) however does NOT have the
              > > > > mirrors.
              > > > >
              > > > > The only one I've seen with the mirrors and horn is the Revell kit in
              > > > > plastic (which incidentally would also have the 1958 style dual headlights)
              > > > >
              > > > > Don
              > > > >
              > > > > Don Dellmann
              > > > > don.dellmann@ <mailto:don.dellmann%40prodigy.net>
              > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > > > > Owner
              > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery'
              > > > >
              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > > From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@ <mailto:jimheck%40losch.net>>
              > > > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:06 AM
              > > > > Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line / Red Ball Ford Tractor [2 Attachments]
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi Don, All,
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks for your response . It makes perfect sense when you look at the
              > > > > dates. I'm sending other pictures sent to me that were part of the original
              > > > > request. It seems there were two different type runs of the same item but I
              > > > > have no idea. Any thoughts about this ?
              > > > >
              > > > > " It has always been my belief that Penn Line had two molds of this
              > > > > Ford cab over engine . In all my years of collecting I have only ever found
              > > > > this one cab that is pictured in these two shots of the two cabs. There is
              > > > > a difference with the one having west coast mirrors / air horn on cab
              > > > > roof .
              > > > > Except for that they are basically the same. I know you can not see it on
              > > > > the photos but on the Penn Line model you can see little indentations where
              > > > > the mirrors were mounted but maybe broke off during the casting of truck.
              > > > > Were these additional parts you added ? There is no visible marks on roof
              > > > > where the air horn might have gone. I was just wondering if this was also
              > > > > made by Red Ball at one time. "
              > > > >
              > > > > Jim H
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15603 From: Jay Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Started Conover Details
              Hi Jim H.,

              I agree that it is odd that Conover would make the two slightly different air compressor castings. Perhaps he was methodically making the pattern for each part one after the other, and did not realize by the time he made the second, that he could have used a more efficient method of one standard compressor casting and two individual brackets. Or maybe he simply thought that each individual bracket would have been too small or difficult to cast and clean vs the two whole compressors with tabs? We will never know the answer, eh?

              The assembled tender looks great!

              W Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > While I wait for some parts I have started to do some of the fine detail work on my Conover project. I was able to create the tender top walkway hand rails and attach. Waiting for ladder material and a brake cylinder to arrive.Then I will only need the coupler and tender is complete as per the original 1938 kit. First picture will show both handrails on the tender.
              >
              > Second picture shows the front boiler handrails made and on ( both sides ). The bottom hole near the front of the boiler is for the bracing rods that goes to the pilot.
              >
              > Last two pictures are of the original double air compressors which I am trying to clean up to use. If you look real close you will see that they are slightly different in the position of the tabs for attaching to the boiler. I think it is kind of odd that Conover created two separate molds to do this to match up to the cast on boiler brackets. I would have thought it would have been easier just to cast these brackets right and only have one air compressor part you would use twice.
              >
              > Finally after switching positions of the flanged and blind drivers I can now "push" ( no motor yet ) the engine around 18" radius curves although not really planning to run this full time on my platform. Believe me, especially with the time I have spent on it and the rarity of the engine, it will be for show.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15604 From: Jay Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Nice Penn Line find
              Hi Al A.,

              In the very early 1960's, a year or so after a distant relative gave me a slightly used Athearn Hustler set to "wean me" off of American Flier into HO scale, I began lusting after those Penn Line locomotives as well. Our local toy store had one each of the assembled Penn Line PRR steam engines on the shelf all summer, and I had finally settled on the H-9, which ended up under the tree. Happy to say, it became the mainstay of over a decade of regular operations on the Boy's Life magazine layout my dad built with me. Of course, thenext year I wanted another, but went for the GG-1 as by then, dad had started taking me 45 miles south to see the Sunday Afternoon Parade along the PRR Main Line. Both engines still run well, and only had to replace the runing boards along the H-9 when they disintigrated. Added some Cal Scale PRR markers and details along the way, but the GG-1 is all original.

              As to assembling your new E-6, I would say go for it. Penn Line made plenty, and though some in perfect packaging should be saved for reference, enough of them have been made to assemble, run and enjoy. I did wrestle a bit with keeping my Trackside Specialties P5-A in kit form, as it is truly rare, but reasoned that a box of rare, but loose parts was more likely to get lost or thrown out by successive owners or their families than a neatly assembled model would be.

              Ps. From your photos, it appears that your kit contains two pilots, the original die cast zamac and a second cast brass by Cal Scale or Kemtron.

              W. Jay W.


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Askerberg <aiberg@...> wrote:
              >
              > The planets aligned for me Saturday at a swap meet. I picked up a Penn
              > Line E6 Atlantic in unbuilt kit form. I'm guessing the vintage is the
              > early to mid fifties.
              >
              > As a kid in the fifties modeling the PRR, I lusted after an H9
              > consolidation with an E6 being an unattainable dream. I never got the
              > H9 then either, but I did pick up one nicely build a few years ago. Now
              > I have the E6 also. The question in my mind is should I assemble the
              > kit or leave it as is. It's tough to run it in the box, so perhaps I
              > will assemble it.
              >
              > My John English coach and combine would look pretty good behind that
              > E6. In fact I have a noname porthole baggage car that would also fit in
              > that train very nicely. The only problem is it is painted PC green -
              > ugh! Repainting is a bit of a challenge because the portholes are
              > glazed making masking a special challenge.
              >
              > I've placed photos of the E6 in my "AL2's stuff" folder.
              >
              > Al Askerberg
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15605 From: jim heckard Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Started Conover Details
              Ray F W , W Jay W,
               
                          I thought it was funny that there would be two distinct air compressors created for the Conover engine. I hadn't noticed it at first till I decided to clean them up ( pitted like all the parts and needed to be filled smooth ) to use. I can only guess the reason also but have to wonder if he had cast the boiler first with the brackets for the compressors already cast on and then realized he could not attach the compressors properly positioned. They would have been off to one side if he tried to use two the same . Rather then redesign the boiler casting he felt it was easier to make two compressors with tabs in different positions. Not a fact just my thoughts.
               
                  I did have the original side rods on when I "pushed" the engine around 18' curve track. I also have the set of the main rods ready but no crossheads . I am waiting for some original parts to come where some of what I need might show up. I'm told that the original eccentrics / return cranks are in one package with a number of valve gear pieces.  While I wait I did create sand pipes for both sides of both sand domes and have them installed.
               
                                                                           Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Jay
              Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 5:11 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Started Conover Details

               

              Hi Jim H.,

              I agree that it is odd that Conover would make the two slightly different air compressor castings. Perhaps he was methodically making the pattern for each part one after the other, and did not realize by the time he made the second, that he could have used a more efficient method of one standard compressor casting and two individual brackets. Or maybe he simply thought that each individual bracket would have been too small or difficult to cast and clean vs the two whole compressors with tabs? We will never know the answer, eh?

              The assembled tender looks great!

              W Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > While I wait for some parts I have started to do some of the fine detail work on my Conover project. I was able to create the tender top walkway hand rails and attach. Waiting for ladder material and a brake cylinder to arrive.Then I will only need the coupler and tender is complete as per the original 1938 kit. First picture will show both handrails on the tender.
              >
              > Second picture shows the front boiler handrails made and on ( both sides ). The bottom hole near the front of the boiler is for the bracing rods that goes to the pilot.
              >
              > Last two pictures are of the original double air compressors which I am trying to clean up to use. If you look real close you will see that they are slightly different in the position of the tabs for attaching to the boiler. I think it is kind of odd that Conover created two separate molds to do this to match up to the cast on boiler brackets. I would have thought it would have been easier just to cast these brackets right and only have one air compressor part you would use twice.
              >
              > Finally after switching positions of the flanged and blind drivers I can now "push" ( no motor yet ) the engine around 18" radius curves although not really planning to run this full time on my platform. Believe me, especially with the time I have spent on it and the rarity of the engine, it will be for show.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15606 From: sottguy Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: Nice Penn Line find
              Jay,

              Quite right. That is a brass pilot otherwise identical to the kit pilot - very nice. There was also a Cal Sccale rope pool brass bell, but I think that is going on one of my Mantua 8 Ball moguls.

              Al

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Jay" <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Al A.,
              >
              > In the very early 1960's, a year or so after a distant relative gave me a slightly used Athearn Hustler set to "wean me" off of American Flier into HO scale, I began lusting after those Penn Line locomotives as well. Our local toy store had one each of the assembled Penn Line PRR steam engines on the shelf all summer, and I had finally settled on the H-9, which ended up under the tree. Happy to say, it became the mainstay of over a decade of regular operations on the Boy's Life magazine layout my dad built with me. Of course, thenext year I wanted another, but went for the GG-1 as by then, dad had started taking me 45 miles south to see the Sunday Afternoon Parade along the PRR Main Line. Both engines still run well, and only had to replace the runing boards along the H-9 when they disintigrated. Added some Cal Scale PRR markers and details along the way, but the GG-1 is all original.
              >
              > As to assembling your new E-6, I would say go for it. Penn Line made plenty, and though some in perfect packaging should be saved for reference, enough of them have been made to assemble, run and enjoy. I did wrestle a bit with keeping my Trackside Specialties P5-A in kit form, as it is truly rare, but reasoned that a box of rare, but loose parts was more likely to get lost or thrown out by successive owners or their families than a neatly assembled model would be.
              >
              > Ps. From your photos, it appears that your kit contains two pilots, the original die cast zamac and a second cast brass by Cal Scale or Kemtron.
              >
              > W. Jay W.
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Askerberg <aiberg@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The planets aligned for me Saturday at a swap meet. I picked up a Penn
              > > Line E6 Atlantic in unbuilt kit form. I'm guessing the vintage is the
              > > early to mid fifties.
              > >
              > > As a kid in the fifties modeling the PRR, I lusted after an H9
              > > consolidation with an E6 being an unattainable dream. I never got the
              > > H9 then either, but I did pick up one nicely build a few years ago. Now
              > > I have the E6 also. The question in my mind is should I assemble the
              > > kit or leave it as is. It's tough to run it in the box, so perhaps I
              > > will assemble it.
              > >
              > > My John English coach and combine would look pretty good behind that
              > > E6. In fact I have a noname porthole baggage car that would also fit in
              > > that train very nicely. The only problem is it is painted PC green -
              > > ugh! Repainting is a bit of a challenge because the portholes are
              > > glazed making masking a special challenge.
              > >
              > > I've placed photos of the E6 in my "AL2's stuff" folder.
              > >
              > > Al Askerberg
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15607 From: Askerberg Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: JC Silver Sides B60
              I have loaded a photo of a JC Silver Sides B60 baggage car. I need to
              repaint it in PRR maroon. Masking the glazing on those portholes
              presents quite a challenge. The trucks are American Beauty. The photo
              is in "AL-2s Stuff".

              Al
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15608 From: jim heckard Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
              Hi Al,
               
                  Isn't there a way to pop out that glazing in those port hole windows and reinsert or put in new ones after painting that baggage car ?
               
                  Good luck with the Penn Line Atlantic. The two John English cars with the J C Silver Sides will make a nice passenger train with the Atlantic pulling them.
               
                                                                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Askerberg
              Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 6:58 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] JC Silver Sides B60

               

              I have loaded a photo of a JC Silver Sides B60 baggage car. I need to
              repaint it in PRR maroon. Masking the glazing on those portholes
              presents quite a challenge. The trucks are American Beauty. The photo
              is in "AL-2s Stuff".

              Al

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15609 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
              Al,
              Use a paper punch to make circles from masking tape and cover the port holes. They are almost perfect in size. When done there will be a very small rim of original color left to paint. Use a super fine Microbrush or similar tiny paint brush that's just about dry with the color you want. Done carefully it will be perfect to the naked (gasp!) eye.
               
              Art W
               
              In a message dated 12/13/2010 8:15:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jimheck@... writes:


              Hi Al,
               
                  Isn't there a way to pop out that glazing in those port hole windows and reinsert or put in new ones after painting that baggage car ?
               
                  Good luck with the Penn Line Atlantic. The two John English cars with the J C Silver Sides will make a nice passenger train with the Atlantic pulling them.
               
                                                                                                  Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Askerberg
              Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 6:58 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] JC Silver Sides B60

               

              I have loaded a photo of a JC Silver Sides B60 baggage car. I need to
              repaint it in PRR maroon. Masking the glazing on those portholes
              presents quite a challenge. The trucks are American Beauty. The photo
              is in "AL-2s Stuff".

              Al

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15610 From: sottguy Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
              Art,

              Your suggestion is a good one. None of my punches is big enough, but the mask doesn't have to be perfectly round - just close. It occurred to me to use slightly oversize masking and then touch up the remaining unpainted edges, and that's what I'll try. Jim, I could pop out the glazing, but I could not replace it as the car body is sealed. I think I'll use the over-masking technique. Now, I really should remove the old paint first, but once again the glazing makes it difficult. I'll get it somehow.

              The good news is I have an unbuilt JC 70 ft PRR coach. Now imagine that E6 Atlantic with the baggage car and the coach racing the Lindbergh film from Phily to NYC... gotta get working on it.

              Al

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
              >
              > Al,
              > Use a paper punch to make circles from masking tape and cover the port
              > holes. They are almost perfect in size. When done there will be a very small
              > rim of original color left to paint. Use a super fine Microbrush or similar
              > tiny paint brush that's just about dry with the color you want. Done
              > carefully it will be perfect to the naked (gasp!) eye.
              >
              > Art W
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 12/13/2010 8:15:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              > jimheck@... writes:
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Al,
              >
              > Isn't there a way to pop out that glazing in those port hole windows
              > and reinsert or put in new ones after painting that baggage car ?
              >
              > Good luck with the Penn Line Atlantic. The two John English cars with
              > the J C Silver Sides will make a nice passenger train with the Atlantic
              > pulling them.
              >
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: _Askerberg_ (mailto:aiberg@...)
              > To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
              > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 6:58 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] JC Silver Sides B60
              >
              >
              >
              > I have loaded a photo of a JC Silver Sides B60 baggage car. I need to
              > repaint it in PRR maroon. Masking the glazing on those portholes
              > presents quite a challenge. The trucks are American Beauty. The photo
              > is in "AL-2s Stuff".
              >
              > Al
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15611 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
              Al,
              A punch for holes in paper is relatively cheap and might save you that little extra slip up that often occurs. Any decent drug store that sells school supplies would have one. My father (I'm 73) often said, "Nothing like having the right tool for the job." Not original but true since the industrial revolution!
               
              Art W
               
              In a message dated 12/13/2010 9:14:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, aiberg@... writes:
              Art,

              Your suggestion is a good one.  None of my punches is big enough, but the mask doesn't have to be perfectly round - just close. It occurred to me to use slightly oversize masking and then touch up the remaining unpainted edges, and that's what I'll try.  Jim, I could pop out the glazing, but I could not replace it as the car body is sealed.  I think I'll use the over-masking technique.  Now, I really should remove the old paint first, but once again the glazing makes it difficult.  I'll get it somehow.

              The good news is I have an unbuilt JC 70 ft PRR coach.  Now imagine that E6 Atlantic with the baggage car and the coach racing the Lindbergh film from Phily to NYC...  gotta get working on it.

              Al

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
              >
              > Al,
              > Use a paper punch to make circles from masking tape and cover the port 
              > holes. They are almost perfect in size. When done there will be a very small
              > rim  of original color left to paint. Use a super fine Microbrush or similar 
              > tiny paint brush that's just about dry with the color you want. Done 
              > carefully it will be perfect to the naked (gasp!) eye.

              > Art W


              > In a message dated 12/13/2010 8:15:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
              > jimheck@... writes:
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Al,

              >     Isn't there a way to pop out  that glazing in those port hole windows
              > and reinsert or put in new ones after  painting that baggage car ?

              >     Good luck with the Penn Line  Atlantic. The two John English cars with
              > the J C Silver Sides will make a nice  passenger train with the Atlantic
              > pulling them.

              >                                                                            
              >          Jim H
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From:  _Askerberg_ (mailto:aiberg@...) 
              > To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com) 
              > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 6:58  PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] JC Silver Sides  B60
              >
              >
              >
              > I have loaded a photo of a JC Silver Sides B60 baggage car. I need to 
              > repaint it in PRR maroon. Masking the glazing on those portholes 
              > presents quite a challenge. The trucks are American Beauty. The photo 
              > is in "AL-2s Stuff".
              >
              > Al
              >




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              Group: vintageHO Message: 15612 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
              Al,
              By the way, I checked with my JC Silversides baggage/mail car and the circle of tape made by the punch is just slightly larger than the port hole. Hard to tell till you've made one.
               
              Art
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15613 From: sottguy Date: 12/13/2010
              Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
              Art,

              Agreed about the right tool for the job. I have a st of punches, but the largestr of them is still less than half the diameter for the window. I also have a leather punch, and though larger, is still too small. I could cut a perfect circle from tape with a compass, but I don't really need a perfect circle. I just need to completely cover the window opening.

              Thanks to both you and Jim for your suggestions and helping me to think this out.

              BTW, I loaded a photo of the JC 70ft coach kit in "AL-2s stuff" folder.

              Al

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@... wrote:
              >
              > Al,
              > A punch for holes in paper is relatively cheap and might save you that
              > little extra slip up that often occurs. Any decent drug store that sells
              > school supplies would have one. My father (I'm 73) often said, "Nothing like
              > having the right tool for the job." Not original but true since the industrial
              > revolution!
              >
              > Art W
              >
              > In a message dated 12/13/2010 9:14:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              > aiberg@... writes:
              >
              > Art,
              >
              > Your suggestion is a good one. None of my punches is big enough, but the
              > mask doesn't have to be perfectly round - just close. It occurred to me to
              > use slightly oversize masking and then touch up the remaining unpainted
              > edges, and that's what I'll try. Jim, I could pop out the glazing, but I
              > could not replace it as the car body is sealed. I think I'll use the
              > over-masking technique. Now, I really should remove the old paint first, but once
              > again the glazing makes it difficult. I'll get it somehow.
              >
              > The good news is I have an unbuilt JC 70 ft PRR coach. Now imagine that
              > E6 Atlantic with the baggage car and the coach racing the Lindbergh film
              > from Phily to NYC... gotta get working on it.
              >
              > Al
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, luvprr@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Al,
              > > Use a paper punch to make circles from masking tape and cover the port
              > > holes. They are almost perfect in size. When done there will be a very
              > small
              > > rim of original color left to paint. Use a super fine Microbrush or
              > similar
              > > tiny paint brush that's just about dry with the color you want. Done
              > > carefully it will be perfect to the naked (gasp!) eye.
              > >
              > > Art W
              > >
              > >
              > > In a message dated 12/13/2010 8:15:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              > > jimheck@ writes:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Al,
              > >
              > > Isn't there a way to pop out that glazing in those port hole windows
              > > and reinsert or put in new ones after painting that baggage car ?
              > >
              > > Good luck with the Penn Line Atlantic. The two John English cars
              > with
              > > the J C Silver Sides will make a nice passenger train with the Atlantic
              > > pulling them.
              > >
              > >
              > > Jim H
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: _Askerberg_ (mailto:aiberg@)
              > > To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com)
              > > Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 6:58 PM
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] JC Silver Sides B60
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I have loaded a photo of a JC Silver Sides B60 baggage car. I need to
              > > repaint it in PRR maroon. Masking the glazing on those portholes
              > > presents quite a challenge. The trucks are American Beauty. The photo
              > > is in "AL-2s Stuff".
              > >
              > > Al
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15614 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/14/2010
              Subject: Re: JC Silver Sides B60
              The windows are small enough you could pop them out, paint the car, and then
              reglaze them with matte medium. (I used to use the special Micro-scale
              "Crystal Clear" but found that "Mod Podge" gloss works just as well, in fact
              is probably the same stuff. with a pint costing the same price as the
              Micro-Scale 2 oz {or whatever it is} bottle).

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "jim heckard" <jimheck@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 7:14 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] JC Silver Sides B60


              Hi Al,

              Isn't there a way to pop out that glazing in those port hole windows and
              reinsert or put in new ones after painting that baggage car ?

              Good luck with the Penn Line Atlantic. The two John English cars with
              the J C Silver Sides will make a nice passenger train with the Atlantic
              pulling them.


              Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Askerberg
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 6:58 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] JC Silver Sides B60



              I have loaded a photo of a JC Silver Sides B60 baggage car. I need to
              repaint it in PRR maroon. Masking the glazing on those portholes
              presents quite a challenge. The trucks are American Beauty. The photo
              is in "AL-2s Stuff".

              Al
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15615 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 12/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Hi folks,
              Interesting mention about that arch at one end having square corners. I know I have seen model cars like that. I just picked up a Varney OSTUCO gondola, but both ends were just plain old gondola ends, not the special "safe loading" end with the square arch and removable gate. Does anyone know the history of this? Did Varney come out with TWO types of OSTUCO gondola's or did some very good modeler kitbash the Varney model to get the prototype? I may need to do some kitbashing myself.
              Regards, Vic Bitleris

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "litant" <litant@...> wrote:
              >
              > Mike,
              >
              > I recall an article in Model Railroader in the early 60s that, I believe, showed the prototype and offered decals if you sent a SASE to someone who worked for the company (possibly the author). I can't locate the article in the Model Train Index, but I sent away for the decals.
              >
              > I think the article was about modifying a Varney gondola ... shortly after that, Varney came out with their own OSTX gondola.
              >
              > I always remembered the arch at the end as having square corners, so I was surprised to see the curved one.
              >
              > Michael Litant
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Interestingly, the "arch" at the end seems to be
              > > slightly different from the one on your car - but mine,
              > > except for the Kaydee couplers (and the crude weathering),
              > > is the way I assembled it out of the box.
              > >
              > > I am still looking for an image of the prototype car, if anyone
              > > has one.
              > ...
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15616 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              I can only tell you that my OSTUCO model was assembled just the way it
              came from the manufacturer/distributor. The only modifications were the
              Kadee couplers and my poor attempts at "weathering". See:
              <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/varneyauthenticast.html>

              I can get some better images if anyone feels they need them. Lemme know...

              Mike

              On 12/15/2010 12:03 PM, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              > Hi folks,
              > Interesting mention about that arch at one end having square corners. I
              > know I have seen model cars like that. I just picked up a Varney OSTUCO
              > gondola, but both ends were just plain old gondola ends, not the special
              > "safe loading" end with the square arch and removable gate. Does anyone
              > know the history of this? Did Varney come out with TWO types of OSTUCO
              > gondola's or did some very good modeler kitbash the Varney model to get
              > the prototype? I may need to do some kitbashing myself.
              > Regards, Vic Bitleris
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > "litant" <litant@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Mike,
              > >
              > > I recall an article in Model Railroader in the early 60s that, I
              > believe, showed the prototype and offered decals if you sent a SASE to
              > someone who worked for the company (possibly the author). I can't locate
              > the article in the Model Train Index, but I sent away for the decals.
              > >
              > > I think the article was about modifying a Varney gondola ... shortly
              > after that, Varney came out with their own OSTX gondola.
              > >
              > > I always remembered the arch at the end as having square corners, so
              > I was surprised to see the curved one.
              > >
              > > Michael Litant
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Interestingly, the "arch" at the end seems to be
              > > > slightly different from the one on your car - but mine,
              > > > except for the Kaydee couplers (and the crude weathering),
              > > > is the way I assembled it out of the box.
              > > >
              > > > I am still looking for an image of the prototype car, if anyone
              > > > has one.
              > > ...
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15617 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 12/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              I am kind of curious. The car you have looks similar to the Varney cars, but there is one difference, aside from the safe loading end, and that is on yours, the interior is braced with triangular gussets. The Varney cars don't have them. Also, all of the Varney cars I have seen are more of an Yellow/Orange, whereas yours is a more Lemon Yellow, and according to the prototype write up, it shuld be Lemon Yellow. Is yours a Varney Car? And YES, I would very much like to see more and better pictures.
              Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              >
              > I can only tell you that my OSTUCO model was assembled just the way it
              > came from the manufacturer/distributor. The only modifications were the
              > Kadee couplers and my poor attempts at "weathering". See:
              > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/varneyauthenticast.html>
              >
              > I can get some better images if anyone feels they need them. Lemme know...
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 12/15/2010 12:03 PM, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              > > Hi folks,
              > > Interesting mention about that arch at one end having square corners. I
              > > know I have seen model cars like that. I just picked up a Varney OSTUCO
              > > gondola, but both ends were just plain old gondola ends, not the special
              > > "safe loading" end with the square arch and removable gate. Does anyone
              > > know the history of this? Did Varney come out with TWO types of OSTUCO
              > > gondola's or did some very good modeler kitbash the Varney model to get
              > > the prototype? I may need to do some kitbashing myself.
              > > Regards, Vic Bitleris
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > "litant" <litant@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Mike,
              > > >
              > > > I recall an article in Model Railroader in the early 60s that, I
              > > believe, showed the prototype and offered decals if you sent a SASE to
              > > someone who worked for the company (possibly the author). I can't locate
              > > the article in the Model Train Index, but I sent away for the decals.
              > > >
              > > > I think the article was about modifying a Varney gondola ... shortly
              > > after that, Varney came out with their own OSTX gondola.
              > > >
              > > > I always remembered the arch at the end as having square corners, so
              > > I was surprised to see the curved one.
              > > >
              > > > Michael Litant
              > > >
              > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Interestingly, the "arch" at the end seems to be
              > > > > slightly different from the one on your car - but mine,
              > > > > except for the Kaydee couplers (and the crude weathering),
              > > > > is the way I assembled it out of the box.
              > > > >
              > > > > I am still looking for an image of the prototype car, if anyone
              > > > > has one.
              > > > ...
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15618 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 12/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              OOOPS, I just got home and checked. Yes, mine does have the triangular braces on the inside. It also has the word Varney cast underneath.
              Regards, Vic Bitleris

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              >
              > I am kind of curious. The car you have looks similar to the Varney cars, but there is one difference, aside from the safe loading end, and that is on yours, the interior is braced with triangular gussets. The Varney cars don't have them. Also, all of the Varney cars I have seen are more of an Yellow/Orange, whereas yours is a more Lemon Yellow, and according to the prototype write up, it shuld be Lemon Yellow. Is yours a Varney Car? And YES, I would very much like to see more and better pictures.
              > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I can only tell you that my OSTUCO model was assembled just the way it
              > > came from the manufacturer/distributor. The only modifications were the
              > > Kadee couplers and my poor attempts at "weathering". See:
              > > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/varneyauthenticast.html>
              > >
              > > I can get some better images if anyone feels they need them. Lemme know...
              > >
              > > Mike
              > >
              > > On 12/15/2010 12:03 PM, bitlerisvj@ wrote:
              > > > Hi folks,
              > > > Interesting mention about that arch at one end having square corners. I
              > > > know I have seen model cars like that. I just picked up a Varney OSTUCO
              > > > gondola, but both ends were just plain old gondola ends, not the special
              > > > "safe loading" end with the square arch and removable gate. Does anyone
              > > > know the history of this? Did Varney come out with TWO types of OSTUCO
              > > > gondola's or did some very good modeler kitbash the Varney model to get
              > > > the prototype? I may need to do some kitbashing myself.
              > > > Regards, Vic Bitleris
              > > >
              > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > > "litant" <litant@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Mike,
              > > > >
              > > > > I recall an article in Model Railroader in the early 60s that, I
              > > > believe, showed the prototype and offered decals if you sent a SASE to
              > > > someone who worked for the company (possibly the author). I can't locate
              > > > the article in the Model Train Index, but I sent away for the decals.
              > > > >
              > > > > I think the article was about modifying a Varney gondola ... shortly
              > > > after that, Varney came out with their own OSTX gondola.
              > > > >
              > > > > I always remembered the arch at the end as having square corners, so
              > > > I was surprised to see the curved one.
              > > > >
              > > > > Michael Litant
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > > <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Interestingly, the "arch" at the end seems to be
              > > > > > slightly different from the one on your car - but mine,
              > > > > > except for the Kaydee couplers (and the crude weathering),
              > > > > > is the way I assembled it out of the box.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I am still looking for an image of the prototype car, if anyone
              > > > > > has one.
              > > > > ...
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15619 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/15/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              I believe Varney did the ordinary one in later years, after the one with the
              arched end was discontinued.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <bitlerisvj@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 11:03 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car


              > Hi folks,
              > Interesting mention about that arch at one end having square corners. I
              > know I have seen model cars like that. I just picked up a Varney OSTUCO
              > gondola, but both ends were just plain old gondola ends, not the special
              > "safe loading" end with the square arch and removable gate. Does anyone
              > know the history of this? Did Varney come out with TWO types of OSTUCO
              > gondola's or did some very good modeler kitbash the Varney model to get
              > the prototype? I may need to do some kitbashing myself.
              > Regards, Vic Bitleris
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "litant" <litant@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Mike,
              >>
              >> I recall an article in Model Railroader in the early 60s that, I believe,
              >> showed the prototype and offered decals if you sent a SASE to someone who
              >> worked for the company (possibly the author). I can't locate the article
              >> in the Model Train Index, but I sent away for the decals.
              >>
              >> I think the article was about modifying a Varney gondola ... shortly
              >> after that, Varney came out with their own OSTX gondola.
              >>
              >> I always remembered the arch at the end as having square corners, so I
              >> was surprised to see the curved one.
              >>
              >> Michael Litant
              >>
              >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              >> >
              >> > Interestingly, the "arch" at the end seems to be
              >> > slightly different from the one on your car - but mine,
              >> > except for the Kaydee couplers (and the crude weathering),
              >> > is the way I assembled it out of the box.
              >> >
              >> > I am still looking for an image of the prototype car, if anyone
              >> > has one.
              >> ...
              >> >
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15620 From: Stephen Neubaum Date: 12/15/2010
              Subject: New Layout
              Group,

              After a fairly disasterous move to a new apartment back in June (The landlord at the old place was a violent drunk, and was under state investigation; Is now in prison for what he did to a handicapped female tenant), I finally have the first four sections for my new railroad built and in my home.

              A friend of mine built these for me, these are two foot by four foot modules which was easy to build off-site (eliminating the problem of dust and noise in the building), and move up the elevator two at a time (I am on the fourth floor), and bolt together once in place.

              I have two pictures attached, one of the four tabletop sections so far delivered (Six more coming), and one of a train on the track. Train is not powered up, but is there more for the visuals. This train has an MDC 4-4-2 and three Varney celluloid side cars behind. The last car I got at Trainfest. Don Dellman and Mike Bauers saw that car.

              I am heading to the hobby shop next week to pick up Woodland Scenics grass mats.

              I know I will get a lot of grief for grass mats and EZ-Track, but that's OK. Just remember, Lionel and Scale-Craft at least, had American OO roadbed track back in the 1930s, though theirs used a Bakelite base! So the concept of roadbed track, is as old as HO scale itself is!

              This has been a very happy day for me, as I have waited for half a year for these, making do with my N Scale layout, which was small enough to move with the legs unscrewed.

              That old landlord, is also under a court order to replace all that had to be replaced or got damaged through the move. Factoring in emotional suffering from him, and that amounts to a good amount of money! Plus, a lot of my trains got busted up through the move - I think at least half had something wrong when I unpacked them, and I did pack them well!

              I will try to post more pictures as I make progress here.


              -Steve Neubaum
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15621 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/15/2010
              Subject: Re: New Layout [2 Attachments]
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Stephen Neubaum" <computersystemrebuild@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 9:12 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] New Layout [2 Attachments]


              > Group,
              >
              > After a fairly disasterous move to a new apartment back in June (The
              > landlord at the old place was a violent drunk, and was under state
              > investigation; Is now in prison for what he did to a handicapped female
              > tenant), I finally have the first four sections for my new railroad built
              > and in my home.
              >
              > A friend of mine built these for me, these are two foot by four foot
              > modules which was easy to build off-site (eliminating the problem of dust
              > and noise in the building), and move up the elevator two at a time (I am
              > on the fourth floor), and bolt together once in place.
              >
              > I have two pictures attached, one of the four tabletop sections so far
              > delivered (Six more coming), and one of a train on the track. Train is not
              > powered up, but is there more for the visuals. This train has an MDC 4-4-2
              > and three Varney celluloid side cars behind. The last car I got at
              > Trainfest. Don Dellman and Mike Bauers saw that car.
              >
              > I am heading to the hobby shop next week to pick up Woodland Scenics grass
              > mats.
              >
              > I know I will get a lot of grief for grass mats and EZ-Track, but that's
              > OK. Just remember, Lionel and Scale-Craft at least, had American OO
              > roadbed track back in the 1930s, though theirs used a Bakelite base! So
              > the concept of roadbed track, is as old as HO scale itself is!
              >
              > This has been a very happy day for me, as I have waited for half a year
              > for these, making do with my N Scale layout, which was small enough to
              > move with the legs unscrewed.
              >
              > That old landlord, is also under a court order to replace all that had to
              > be replaced or got damaged through the move. Factoring in emotional
              > suffering from him, and that amounts to a good amount of money! Plus, a
              > lot of my trains got busted up through the move - I think at least half
              > had something wrong when I unpacked them, and I did pack them well!
              >
              > I will try to post more pictures as I make progress here.
              >
              >
              > -Steve Neubaum


              Lookin' good in spite the track :-)

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15622 From: jim heckard Date: 12/16/2010
              Subject: Red Ball item for Christmas
               

              Hi All,
               
                      I won an item on ebay for Christmas. If you go to 140488297878  Red Ball early brass Road Switcher Alco RS-1 / RS-2  you will see the latest addition to my collection. While I knew it was a dummy it is ready to take a Lindsay motor / drive unit which I have and what was originally used. It sounds like it might need some small detail repairing but that's no biggie.
               
                I bought it for my collection as it is one of 3 of basically the same engine construction wise.  International ( IMP ), Arden and Red Ball all sold a sheet brass RS type switcher but each had their own type drive with minor detail differences. I really believe the same Japanese company made these 3 engines but sold by different companies. I didn't have the one sold by Red Ball, but having the other two, I felt it was a good purchase for me.
               
                                                                                      Jim H
               
               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15623 From: Dennis Thompson Date: 12/16/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas

              Jim:

              I LIKE that one !  Good for you.  I'd also say that little model just found the best home there could ever be.

              Merry Christmas, Jim.

              Dennis Thompson
              Odessa/Ritzville, E WA state



              At 07:55 AM 12/16/2010, you wrote:


               

              Hi All,
               
                      I won an item on ebay for Christmas. If you go to 140488297878  Red Ball early brass Road Switcher Alco RS-1 / RS-2  you will see the latest addition to my collection. While I knew it was a dummy it is ready to take a Lindsay motor / drive unit which I have and what was originally used. It sounds like it might need some small detail repairing but that's no biggie.
               
                I bought it for my collection as it is one of 3 of basically the same engine construction wise. International ( IMP ), Arden and Red Ball all sold a sheet brass RS type switcher but each had their own type drive with minor detail differences. I really believe the same Japanese company made these 3 engines but sold by different companies. I didn't have the one sold by Red Ball, but having the other two, I felt it was a good purchase for me.
               
                                                                                      Jim H
               
               



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15624 From: jim heckard Date: 12/16/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
                
              Dennis T,
               
                   I hope to give it a very good home. HO encompasses so many areas and to each his own. Mine happens to be preserving vintage HO items and their history. To me this item is another concrete piece of the puzzle.
               
                   Merry Christmas to you and everybody.
               
                                Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:05 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Red Ball item for Christmas

               


              Jim:

              I LIKE that one !  Good for you.  I'd also say that little model just found the best home there could ever be.

              Merry Christmas, Jim.

              Dennis Thompson
              Odessa/Ritzville, E WA state



              At 07:55 AM 12/16/2010, you wrote:




              Hi All,

               
                      I won an item on ebay for Christmas. If you go to 140488297878  Red Ball early brass Road Switcher Alco RS-1 / RS-2  you will see the latest addition to my collection. While I knew it was a dummy it is ready to take a Lindsay motor / drive unit which I have and what was originally used. It sounds like it might need some small detail repairing but that's no biggie.

               
                I bought it for my collection as it is one of 3 of basically the same engine construction wise. International ( IMP ), Arden and Red Ball all sold a sheet brass RS type switcher but each had their own type drive with minor detail differences. I really believe the same Japanese company made these 3 engines but sold by different companies. I didn't have the one sold by Red Ball, but having the other two, I felt it was a good purchase for me.

               
                                                                                      Jim H

               




              Group: vintageHO Message: 15625 From: jim heckard Date: 12/17/2010
              Subject: Another addition
               

               
               
                       As I wait for parts coming from three different places, some original, my Conover project is on hold. Since I had nothing else lined up I decided to do a little Christmas shopping for myself. For the second day in a row I won an item on eBay for my vintage collection and I feel I got it for a really good price.
               
                    Checkout  # 290510825140   Baldwin HO 1000 HP Switching Locomotive Kit by Kemtron  My information said this kit was made 1952-1954 and also called a VO 660. Don't know to much about this particular kit so it will be interesting to have one. Having the plans with it will be a big plus.
               
                                                                   Jim H
               
                               
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15626 From: Model RailRoad Date: 12/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
              REGARDING "THE SAME JAPANESE COMPANY...."

              I do not know what source was used for the sheet brass of the Red Ball RS and EMD diesels. Perhaps this was the the "foot in the door" for Howell Day's brass loco importation. But considering the earlier entry of the EMD switcher, I suspect "all" [Red Ball switcher parts] were made in USA. The RS cast parts were.

              I DO know the "dies" (metal molds)for casting RS end sills,radiator grill, boiler exhaust stack etc were among the molds we purchased in 1975 and in fact we made and sold those parts (by the hundreds) for several years to folks presumably upgrading early plastic RS locos. (The end sill was also run in styrene under the Cannonball label). They remain in the Red Ball tooling now at LaBelle.

              Merle Rice
              Model RR Warehouse


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi All,
              >
              > I won an item on ebay for Christmas. If you go to 140488297878 Red Ball early brass Road Switcher Alco RS-1 / RS-2 you will see the latest addition to my collection. While I knew it was a dummy it is ready to take a Lindsay motor / drive unit which I have and what was originally used. It sounds like it might need some small detail repairing but that's no biggie.
              >
              > I bought it for my collection as it is one of 3 of basically the same engine construction wise. International ( IMP ), Arden and Red Ball all sold a sheet brass RS type switcher but each had their own type drive with minor detail differences. I really believe the same Japanese company made these 3 engines but sold by different companies. I didn't have the one sold by Red Ball, but having the other two, I felt it was a good purchase for me.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15627 From: RalphB Date: 12/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Another addition
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jim Heckard wrote:
              >
              > Checkout # 290510825140 Baldwin HO 1000 HP Switching Locomotive Kit by Kemtron My information said this kit was made 1952-1954 and also called a VO 660.
              ---------------------
              Jim,

              Checked one of my histories of BLW/BLH and that particular carbody was used for models DS-4-4-660, DS-4-4-750, AND DS-4-4-1000. Only the last order of VO660s was built using that carbody; they went to KCS. All earlier VO-series locomotives had angled radiator fronts. As long as you're not modeling a specific unit, you can write your own history for it.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15628 From: RalphB Date: 12/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jim Heckard wrote:
              >
              > I won an item on ebay for Christmas. If you go to 140488297878 Red Ball early brass Road Switcher Alco RS-1 / RS-2
              ----------------
              Couldn't read the box, but that's definitely not an RS-1. It does look most like an RS-2, and it's probably not the later RS-3. The RS-1 carbody was much more angular than the later RS-2/3, and the easiest way to tell the difference between the latter two is if there's a fuel filler in the cab sides, then it's an RS-2 which had its fuel tank under the cab floor.

              I love reading the descriptions of items on eBay; you can really spot the ones where the seller has only a vague idea (or none at all) of what he's offering. Even if I'm not buying, I'll sometimes give a seller accurate information that he can provide to prospective buyers.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15629 From: jim heckard Date: 12/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
              Hi Ralph,
               
               
                 You are probably right about what both the Red Ball and Kemtron Switchers most look like as far as the real thing. The problem that happens a lot is that HO manufacturers labeled and sold items that were wrong. This happened a lot. Their engines many times were hybrid in nature. As a vintage HO collector I go by what HO items were sold by not the real thing.
               
                 In the case of this Red Ball engine I didn't know what it most looked like and just went by the sellers description. As for the Kemtron engine I have a book about vintage HO engines that labeled it as VO 660. I just know I needed both for my collection whatever they are.
               
                   Thanks for your response and explanation.
               
                                                         Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: RalphB
              Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 9:10 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball item for Christmas

               

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jim Heckard wrote:
              >
              > I won an item on ebay for Christmas. If you go to 140488297878 Red Ball early brass Road Switcher Alco RS-1 / RS-2
              ----------------
              Couldn't read the box, but that's definitely not an RS-1. It does look most like an RS-2, and it's probably not the later RS-3. The RS-1 carbody was much more angular than the later RS-2/3, and the easiest way to tell the difference between the latter two is if there's a fuel filler in the cab sides, then it's an RS-2 which had its fuel tank under the cab floor.

              I love reading the descriptions of items on eBay; you can really spot the ones where the seller has only a vague idea (or none at all) of what he's offering. Even if I'm not buying, I'll sometimes give a seller accurate information that he can provide to prospective buyers.

              Ralph B

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15630 From: John H Date: 12/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
              This is an RS-2. It has the same basic car body that was shared by both the RS-2/3 but the battery box(es) is under the frame, not on top of the walkways adjacent to the cab as on the RS-3's.

              I had my eye on this one myself as my favorite railroad, the Green Bay and Western, had just as many RS-2' as RS-3's (4). But being off work since my leg incident has limited my ability to compete in the market for a while.

              The good news is when I can start looking again, I woun't have to bid against Jim.

              John Hagen


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "RalphB" <Alpvalsys@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jim Heckard wrote:
              > >
              > > I won an item on ebay for Christmas. If you go to 140488297878 Red Ball early brass Road Switcher Alco RS-1 / RS-2
              > ----------------
              > Couldn't read the box, but that's definitely not an RS-1. It does look most like an RS-2, and it's probably not the later RS-3. The RS-1 carbody was much more angular than the later RS-2/3, and the easiest way to tell the difference between the latter two is if there's a fuel filler in the cab sides, then it's an RS-2 which had its fuel tank under the cab floor.
              >
              > I love reading the descriptions of items on eBay; you can really spot the ones where the seller has only a vague idea (or none at all) of what he's offering. Even if I'm not buying, I'll sometimes give a seller accurate information that he can provide to prospective buyers.
              >
              > Ralph B
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15631 From: jim heckard Date: 12/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball item for Christmas
              Hi Merle,
               
                  I thank you for your response and information. Since you are knowledgeable about the  Red Ball products line I have no reason to disbelieve you. I know it will change my thoughts on the matter.
               
                   My information came MANY years ago from a number of sources long before Yahoo sites and computer groups could share information. Everything back then was a lot of word of mouth actually mail and telephone.. Even when I became a member of the now defunct HOSC&H-SIG that came into being this information did not change. Dave Spanagel, moderator and author of the Varney Guide,  was the one who sent me the original sheet about this Red Ball engine. We had just been discussing the ARDEN and IMP versions in our newsletter " The Reporting Mark" I still have that sheet and a note here somewhere where Dave mentions this Red Ball engine in the same breath as the other two.
               
                 Another source for me was a Mr. James Lenahan who put out Lenahans Locomotive Lexicons. The Red Ball engine is not in his original books ( Volume 1 & 2 ) like the Arden and IMP versions are but we were having discussions about it for a revision he planned as more knowledge became available. Sorrowfully he passed away before this happened.
               
                There were a number of other old timers who thought the same and no one came forward to change what I thought was true.  So forgive if I am in error. This is the first time I have heard information contrary to what I THOUGHT I knew and I honestly Thank You.
               
                  ( I have to check the list to see if Howell Day was a member of the HOSC&H-SIG ).
               
                                                                             Jim H  
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 8:38 AM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Red Ball item for Christmas

               

              REGARDING "THE SAME JAPANESE COMPANY...."

              I do not know what source was used for the sheet brass of the Red Ball RS and EMD diesels. Perhaps this was the the "foot in the door" for Howell Day's brass loco importation. But considering the earlier entry of the EMD switcher, I suspect "all" [Red Ball switcher parts] were made in USA. The RS cast parts were.

              I DO know the "dies" (metal molds)for casting RS end sills,radiator grill, boiler exhaust stack etc were among the molds we purchased in 1975 and in fact we made and sold those parts (by the hundreds) for several years to folks presumably upgrading early plastic RS locos. (The end sill was also run in styrene under the Cannonball label). They remain in the Red Ball tooling now at LaBelle.

              Merle Rice
              Model RR Warehouse

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi All,
              >
              > I won an item on ebay for Christmas. If you go to 140488297878 Red Ball early brass Road Switcher Alco RS-1 / RS-2 you will see the latest addition to my collection. While I knew it was a dummy it is ready to take a Lindsay motor / drive unit which I have and what was originally used. It sounds like it might need some small detail repairing but that's no biggie.
              >
              > I bought it for my collection as it is one of 3 of basically the same engine construction wise. International ( IMP ), Arden and Red Ball all sold a sheet brass RS type switcher but each had their own type drive with minor detail differences. I really believe the same Japanese company made these 3 engines but sold by different companies. I didn't have the one sold by Red Ball, but having the other two, I felt it was a good purchase for me.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15632 From: jim heckard Date: 12/17/2010
              Subject: Comparison of RS-2's
               
              Hi Merle, All,
               
                      I wanted to show you why I believed what I wrote. I'm sorry to send so many pictures but hope it will help. I wanted to show comparisons for the 3 engines I mentioned, Arden, IMP and Red Ball. Although they might not be exact copies of an RS-2 but I think they were all sold as that.
               
                 Before I go on I did find out Howell Day was a member of the HOSC&H-SIG for many years. He was 92 years old in 1996 and living in Dunellen NJ. While I haven't searched all my HOSC&H-SIG records I did find this statement " He ( Howell Day ) imported Japanese HO brass Locomotives in the 50's and 60's ".  I lack an index to do an easy search for info and my "Reporting Marks" basically start with Volume 11 till the end. I will have to dig deeper for specifics.
               
                  Moving on to the pictures and as a point of reference the Arden model was made / sold in 1950, the IMP ( International ) from 51-55 and Red Ball from 52-55. These are dates I have. If you have information that is different I would be pleased to know.
               
                 The first picture is taken from an original Red Ball /. Dale Newton Company Road Switcher Diesel sheet. This is the sheet Dave Spanagel sent to me with this note on the back "  Jim, Take a look at this RS-2. Tell me if any of these parts or assemblies are like your Arden loco ". I haven't come across the accompanying note yet talking about the similarities between the 3 engines mentioned. Also I have to wait as I didn't receive the Red Ball RS-2 engine yet to compare.
               
                    Pictures  2, 3 and 4 are views of the Arden RS-2. Pictures 5, 6,and 7 are of the International model.
               
                 You compare. Yes there are small differences between the 3 which is not abnormal if the same basic model was made by one company to be sold to different companies. One of the biggest differences is the Red Ball has cast metal parts ( which you mentioned ) where the other two have them cast brass ( Like the pilots ) but still single pieces you add .
               
                     I offer these only as a comparison. I don't claim to be right but I think you can see how and where I formed my information. Again I Thank you for your thoughts and information.  FWIW
               
                                                                 Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15633 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/17/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              I finally managed to remember to get some images of my OSTUCO car and
              posted them in the album "Mike Sloane's Vintage stuff".

              As noted, the care is essentially stock, except that the stirrup steps
              were damaged somehow and replaced with Tuttle Industries (I think), and
              I installed KayDee couplers. The trucks and wheels are also original -
              with real springs in the sideframes.

              Down the center channel of the "frame" are the words "Varney"
              vertically, and the number "1721" with a large "B". And, of course,
              there is my terrible "weathering" job. Hey, who know that it would some
              day be a rare bird?

              Mike

              On 12/15/2010 3:16 PM, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              > I am kind of curious. The car you have looks similar to the Varney cars,
              > but there is one difference, aside from the safe loading end, and that
              > is on yours, the interior is braced with triangular gussets. The Varney
              > cars don't have them. Also, all of the Varney cars I have seen are more
              > of an Yellow/Orange, whereas yours is a more Lemon Yellow, and according
              > to the prototype write up, it shuld be Lemon Yellow. Is yours a Varney
              > Car? And YES, I would very much like to see more and better pictures.
              > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I can only tell you that my OSTUCO model was assembled just the way it
              > > came from the manufacturer/distributor. The only modifications were the
              > > Kadee couplers and my poor attempts at "weathering". See:
              > >
              > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/varneyauthenticast.html>
              > >
              > > I can get some better images if anyone feels they need them. Lemme
              > know...
              > >
              > > Mike
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15634 From: Model RailRoad Date: 12/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Comparison of RS-2's
              Yes, Howell Day imported brass locos from Japan. Off the top of my head they included: "Trainmaster" diesel, Baldwin "Baby Face" double ended CNJ diesel, PRR K4, a camel back or two, at least two "inspection engines (steam with passenger car body), HO and HOn3 0-4-4-0 and 0-4-0 variations and a tiny railbys/railtruck, circus flat car in the 1960s. The two diesel switchers (EMD and RS) predate these.

              I do not possess the other RS models being discussed. IF the brass castings on them are identical to the white metal castings on the Red Ball model I would not be surprised. Howell was quite the gentleman and would never "mention names", but a "burr under his saddle" was the tendency of others to copy [pirate] his castings using rubber mold techniques. Lost wax brass copies could similarly be made. The Red Ball originsal partts were cast in molds that were machined. The canities are meticulously cut ii to solid blocks of metal (most were brass though we also did some in streel and aluminum). He mentioned the rip offs in more than one discussion-- but never with specificity. Someone else may judge the similarities (if any) of the RS models, I can only vouch for the originality of the Red Ball metak castings.

              Merle Ricer
              Model RR Warehouse

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Merle, All,
              >
              > I wanted to show you why I believed what I wrote. I'm sorry to send so many pictures but hope it will help. I wanted to show comparisons for the 3 engines I mentioned, Arden, IMP and Red Ball. Although they might not be exact copies of an RS-2 but I think they were all sold as that.
              >
              > Before I go on I did find out Howell Day was a member of the HOSC&H-SIG for many years. He was 92 years old in 1996 and living in Dunellen NJ. While I haven't searched all my HOSC&H-SIG records I did find this statement " He ( Howell Day ) imported Japanese HO brass Locomotives in the 50's and 60's ". I lack an index to do an easy search for info and my "Reporting Marks" basically start with Volume 11 till the end. I will have to dig deeper for specifics.
              >
              > Moving on to the pictures and as a point of reference the Arden model was made / sold in 1950, the IMP ( International ) from 51-55 and Red Ball from 52-55. These are dates I have. If you have information that is different I would be pleased to know.
              >
              > The first picture is taken from an original Red Ball /. Dale Newton Company Road Switcher Diesel sheet. This is the sheet Dave Spanagel sent to me with this note on the back " Jim, Take a look at this RS-2. Tell me if any of these parts or assemblies are like your Arden loco ". I haven't come across the accompanying note yet talking about the similarities between the 3 engines mentioned. Also I have to wait as I didn't receive the Red Ball RS-2 engine yet to compare.
              >
              > Pictures 2, 3 and 4 are views of the Arden RS-2. Pictures 5, 6,and 7 are of the International model.
              >
              > You compare. Yes there are small differences between the 3 which is not abnormal if the same basic model was made by one company to be sold to different companies. One of the biggest differences is the Red Ball has cast metal parts ( which you mentioned ) where the other two have them cast brass ( Like the pilots ) but still single pieces you add .
              >
              > I offer these only as a comparison. I don't claim to be right but I think you can see how and where I formed my information. Again I Thank you for your thoughts and information. FWIW
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15635 From: jim heckard Date: 12/18/2010
              Subject: Looking for information,
               
               
                All,
               
                      In an effort to get some vintage HO history facts straight in my mind I am looking for some information concerning dates as to when some engines were first sold. I realize that to pin point the years exactly this far down the road will be very hard but hope someone has some info.
               
                  This concerns 3 sheet brass HO engines that were sold as 1000 hp Switchers / RS-2's  by three companies. The dates I have are as follows:
               
                Arden                        1950
                IMP ( International )    1951
                Red Ball                    1952
               
                 Does anyone have information to the contrary ? Thank You in advance.
               
                                                              Merry Christmas,
                                                               Jim H
                  
               
                  
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15636 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/18/2010
              Subject: Re: Comparison of RS-2's
              I can recall one example of the same model being imported by different
              importers. A friend had two HO 55-foot McKeen motor cars--one box said Ken
              Kidder, the other was LMB. -- I knowthey were identical as I was his "shop
              foreman" and worked on both. gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Model RailRoad" <mrrwarehouse@...>
              Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:15 AM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2's

              > Yes, Howell Day imported brass locos from Japan. Off the top of my head
              > they included: "Trainmaster" diesel, Baldwin "Baby Face" double ended CNJ
              > diesel, PRR K4, a camel back or two, at least two "inspection engines
              > (steam with passenger car body), HO and HOn3 0-4-4-0 and 0-4-0 variations
              > and a tiny railbys/railtruck, circus flat car in the 1960s. The two
              > diesel switchers (EMD and RS) predate these.
              >
              > I do not possess the other RS models being discussed. IF the brass
              > castings on them are identical to the white metal castings on the Red Ball
              > model I would not be surprised. Howell was quite the gentleman and would
              > never "mention names", but a "burr under his saddle" was the tendency of
              > others to copy [pirate] his castings using rubber mold techniques. Lost
              > wax brass copies could similarly be made. The Red Ball originsal partts
              > were cast in molds that were machined. The canities are meticulously cut
              > ii to solid blocks of metal (most were brass though we also did some in
              > streel and aluminum). He mentioned the rip offs in more than one
              > discussion-- but never with specificity. Someone else may judge the
              > similarities (if any) of the RS models, I can only vouch for the
              > originality of the Red Ball metak castings.
              >
              > Merle Ricer
              > Model RR Warehouse
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >> Hi Merle, All,
              >>
              >> I wanted to show you why I believed what I wrote. I'm sorry to
              >> send so many pictures but hope it will help. I wanted to show comparisons
              >> for the 3 engines I mentioned, Arden, IMP and Red Ball. Although they
              >> might not be exact copies of an RS-2 but I think they were all sold as
              >> that.
              >>
              >> Before I go on I did find out Howell Day was a member of the
              >> HOSC&H-SIG for many years. He was 92 years old in 1996 and living in
              >> Dunellen NJ. While I haven't searched all my HOSC&H-SIG records I did
              >> find this statement " He ( Howell Day ) imported Japanese HO brass
              >> Locomotives in the 50's and 60's ". I lack an index to do an easy search
              >> for info and my "Reporting Marks" basically start with Volume 11 till the
              >> end. I will have to dig deeper for specifics.
              >>
              >> Moving on to the pictures and as a point of reference the Arden model
              >> was made / sold in 1950, the IMP ( International ) from 51-55 and Red
              >> Ball from 52-55. These are dates I have. If you have information that is
              >> different I would be pleased to know.
              >>
              >> The first picture is taken from an original Red Ball /. Dale Newton
              >> Company Road Switcher Diesel sheet. This is the sheet Dave Spanagel sent
              >> to me with this note on the back " Jim, Take a look at this RS-2. Tell
              >> me if any of these parts or assemblies are like your Arden loco ". I
              >> haven't come across the accompanying note yet talking about the
              >> similarities between the 3 engines mentioned. Also I have to wait as I
              >> didn't receive the Red Ball RS-2 engine yet to compare.
              >>
              >> Pictures 2, 3 and 4 are views of the Arden RS-2. Pictures 5, 6,and
              >> 7 are of the International model.
              >>
              >> You compare. Yes there are small differences between the 3 which is
              >> not abnormal if the same basic model was made by one company to be sold
              >> to different companies. One of the biggest differences is the Red Ball
              >> has cast metal parts ( which you mentioned ) where the other two have
              >> them cast brass ( Like the pilots ) but still single pieces you add .
              >>
              >> I offer these only as a comparison. I don't claim to be right but
              >> I think you can see how and where I formed my information. Again I Thank
              >> you for your thoughts and information. FWIW
              >>
              >> Jim H
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15637 From: jim heckard Date: 12/18/2010
              Subject: Christmas Present
              Attachments :
               

               
               
                       A good friend of mine and an avid Penn Line collector sent me this neat little Penn Line Ford Tilt Cab Tractor for Christmas. I was told they normally were painted red so I will paint and assemble it for use on my layout.
               
                                                                                         Jim
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15638 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/18/2010
              Subject: Ford cab over versions

              I have attached some side by side photos of the Revell on the right as a Globe Van Lines cab, Penn Line in the middle and a new Athearn in red on the left side of the Ford cabs made by each.  It appears the Penn Line and Athearn are similar with the single headlights, the Revell has dual headlights.

               

              Take care,

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               

                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15639 From: John Webster Date: 12/18/2010
              Subject: Fw: Ohio Seamless Tube car
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 1:17 AM
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car

              BTW, Ohio Seamless Tube's 0-6-0 switcher still exists (as of about 15 years ago) and is on display at the Mahoning County Fairgrounds.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15640 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 12/19/2010
              Subject: Walthers HH-660's

              I have some of these in varying states of built/unbuilt/maybe incomplete and sure could use a scan of a set of instructions.


              They're not all quite the same, either - minor difference in the castings(including die numbers) and so on. One seems to have the original drive(two axles) and runs but sort of leaps down the track - wheels match but are not really centered on their axles.


              I had in mind powering one or more of them with Athearn drive(for MU purposes) but it looks like it may be a tough fit. I'm not a detail freak, but I do like good runners.


              And ideas?


              Thanks in advance and Merry Christmas!


              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut®)


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15641 From: jim heckard Date: 12/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Walthers HH-660's
              Hi Fred,
               
                   I can't scan my plans but if you go into    www.hoseeker.net.  click on Literature,  click on Walthers, right in the middle of the page click on diagrams and scroll down to number 6410 Alco Diesel  1946 you will find one diagram for the HH-660. This is most likely for the cast lead body parts. There is an earlier cast brass / bronze one too and  might have slightly different plans.
               
                I think ths is what you want and hope this helps.
               
                                                           Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 2:37 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Walthers HH-660's

               

              I have some of these in varying states of built/unbuilt/maybe incomplete and sure could use a scan of a set of instructions.


              They're not all quite the same, either - minor difference in the castings(including die numbers) and so on. One seems to have the original drive(two axles) and runs but sort of leaps down the track - wheels match but are not really centered on their axles.


              I had in mind powering one or more of them with Athearn drive(for MU purposes) but it looks like it may be a tough fit. I'm not a detail freak, but I do like good runners.


              And ideas?


              Thanks in advance and Merry Christmas!


              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut®)


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15642 From: jim heckard Date: 12/19/2010
              Subject: Project for someone
               

               
               
                      Do you want a real challenge. Something that will tax not only your skills but your patience  Go to  200555165582  Winton HO Brass 2-6-6-6 Engine Kit to build.  
               
                                                                 Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15643 From: jim heckard Date: 12/19/2010
              Subject: Forgot to mention
               

               
               
               
                     If my old tired eyes are not deceiving me that Winton 2-6-6-6 kit    200555165582  looks like the last run called the MaRa version. This had complete castings in the kit making it a little easier to build then the first run where you had to assemble and solder the sub assemblies. The motto for the first run versions were " Not a casting in the kit."
               
                                                                           Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15644 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Forgot to mention
              This one is the one with castings...  trucks, domes, pilot, etc.  As much as I would love to build it, it is far out of my reach money wise.
              Don Staton in VA.

              On 12/19/2010 8:07 PM, jim heckard wrote:
               

               

               
               
               
                     If my old tired eyes are not deceiving me that Winton 2-6-6-6 kit    200555165582  looks like the last run called the MaRa version. This had complete castings in the kit making it a little easier to build then the first run where you had to assemble and solder the sub assemblies. The motto for the first run versions were " Not a casting in the kit."
               
                                                                           Jim H
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15645 From: jim heckard Date: 12/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Forgot to mention
               
               
                    Having a first run version, built and running,  I wish I could buy this to add to my collection. Any Winton Allegheny is rare to start with but this version much harder to come by. 
               
                   Hey Santa our you listening.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 8:12 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot to mention

               

              This one is the one with castings...  trucks, domes, pilot, etc.  As much as I would love to build it, it is far out of my reach money wise.
              Don Staton in VA.

              On 12/19/2010 8:07 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               

               
               
               
                     If my old tired eyes are not deceiving me that Winton 2-6-6-6 kit    200555165582  looks like the last run called the MaRa version. This had complete castings in the kit making it a little easier to build then the first run where you had to assemble and solder the sub assemblies. The motto for the first run versions were " Not a casting in the kit."
               
                                                                           Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15646 From: luvprr@aol.com Date: 12/19/2010
              Subject: Re: Forgot to mention
              Geeze, Jim, you almost talked me into buying it, but I've got a couple of these myself that are super, and I wouldn't want to try building another and find I'm short a couple of pieces--like I did with an 8 car set of American Beauty cars which someone sold me using the "looks like all the parts are there" routine. Fortunately I was able to replace or substitute the missing parts, and the cars came out very nicely. Winton stuff is a different story, . . .
              Art W
               
              In a message dated 12/19/2010 8:44:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jimheck@... writes:


               
               
                    Having a first run version, built and running,  I wish I could buy this to add to my collection. Any Winton Allegheny is rare to start with but this version much harder to come by. 
               
                   Hey Santa our you listening.
               
                                                               Jim H
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 8:12 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Forgot to mention

               

              This one is the one with castings...  trucks, domes, pilot, etc.  As much as I would love to build it, it is far out of my reach money wise.
              Don Staton in VA.

              On 12/19/2010 8:07 PM, jim heckard wrote:

               

               

               
               
               
                     If my old tired eyes are not deceiving me that Winton 2-6-6-6 kit    200555165582  looks like the last run called the MaRa version. This had complete castings in the kit making it a little easier to build then the first run where you had to assemble and solder the sub assemblies. The motto for the first run versions were " Not a casting in the kit."
               
                                                                           Jim H

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15647 From: Randolph Torres Date: 12/19/2010
              Subject: I have moved and have way too many model railroad items, theyÂ’ll ne

              I have moved and have way too many model railroad items, they'll never get built so I am selling off the bulk of my collection. If interested contact me off group @ basr244t@.... Payment methods Pay Pal or Postal Money Order only. Shipping costs based on your address  so send along with inquiries.

              On3

              1.       Bachmann #25299, 2-6-0, unlettered , painted black $ 74.99

              2.        Bachmann 2-6-0, Unlettered, painted black $ 74.99

              3.       Bachmann # 25127, Closed Street Car "Christmas" $49.99

              4.       Bachmann # 25860, 0-4-0 Side Rod Gas Mechanical locomotive ( "Poahontas Lumber Co.) 59.99

              5.       1931 Revell Cadillac Phaeton (1/48)  $7.99

              6.       Matchbox, Bentley VR (1 /48) $ 7.99

              7.       Renwal   (1/48) 1939 Mercedes-Benz 540-K  (7.99)

              8.       Riio Grande Models #2007-TK , 3'6" Arch Bar Truck,On39) #5.99

              9.       Revell Miniature Masterpieces Covered Wagon                $24.99

              10.   Revell Miniature Masterpieces Wells Fargo  Stage Coach ½ built, poor paint $10.99

              11.   Bachmann 0-4-0 Porter, needs TLC runs , great for kit bash.         $20.00

               

               

              O gage

              1.       Multi Control Transformer Type 1033 (90 Watts) Used Shape NO broken parts  $12.99

              2.       Lionel North American chemical tank car  $12.99

               

              HO gauge

              1.       Quality Craft Models wood construction 70'Lumber Box Car #315              $7.99

              2.       Ambroid wood construction Golden Loaf Flower  Air Slide Hopper # H-23              $7.99

              3.       Ambroid Anniversary two in one kit wood construction Milwaukee Composite Gondola

              Norfolk & Western Wood Out Side Brace Hopper Car      $ 17.99

              4.       Quality Craft Models wood construction 85'Trailer Train Piggy Back Flat 2 in 1       $7.99

              5.       Quality Craft, Prestige Series, wood construction, Mo Pac  Express Box Car           $7.99

              6.       Quality Craft Models wood construction 86' Hy Cube Box Cat (N&W)       $7.99

              7.       Quality Craft Models wood construction 86', 8 door Hy-Cube Box Car PC                                $7.99

              8.       Quality Craft Models wood construction 86',4 door Hy-Cube Box Car PRR              $7.99    

              9.       Quality Craft, Prestige Series, wood construction 40' PRR, Auto Box         $7.99

              10.   Quality Craft Models wood construction 86', 8 door Hy-Cube Box Car PC                                $7.99

              11.   Quality Craft Models wood const.  86',4 door Hy-Cube Box Car PRR  ½ built           $5.00

              12.   Ambroid wood construction,  ACF Center Flow , 2 in 1 kit, Shippers & Koppers    $12.99

              13.   Ambroid wood construction,  N.Y.C. Container Car                                                           $7.99

              14.   Gloor Craft Models wood construction,  PRR H-31, 2 bay hopper                $7.99

              15.   Ambroid wood construction,  ACL Phosphate Hopper Car             $7.99

              16.   Ambroid wood construction,  B&O Cushion Coil Car                         $7.99

              17.   Ambroid wood construction CB&Q Dynamometer Car                    $7.99

              18.   Quality Craft Models wood construction Bulkhead Flat Car 2 in 1 kit          $7.99

              19.   Walthers  wood, stamped tin, w/castings Coach, Utility 60' #933-6676     $17.99

              20.   Walthers  wood, stamped tin, w/castings Combine 60' #933-6646             $17.99

              21.   Walthers  wood, stamped tin, w/castings Postal 60' #933-6651   $17.99

              22.   Labelle Soo  wood construction side door caboose #HO43            $7.99

              23.   Box Car Parts Tichy          $5.00

              24.   Tichy plastic construction Stump Car SCL Decals #4043D                  $7.99

              25.   Tichy plastic construction early 40' steel flat wood grain sides #4040         $7.99

              26.   Tichy plastic construction USRA Hopper 30', 2 bay #4027                $7.99

              27.   Mountaineer Precision Products Universal Building #202HO         $12.99

              28.   Highway Miniatures 1922 Packard Stake Truck                                    $5.99

              29.   Highway Miniatures  1922 Mack Railcar                                  $15.99

              30.   Highway Miniatures   1923 Model T Ford Stake Truck       $5.99

              31.   Highway Miniatures  1928 Model A Ford Sedan                  $5.99

              32.   Built Up unknown mfg. Depressed Center Flat car, unpainted     $5.99

              33.   Built Up unknown mfg. composet gondola, wood & plastic sides and floor C&A  $12.00

              34   Built Up unknown mfg. Roundhouse Milk Car "Borden's" green BFPX506              $12.00

              35.   Built Up unknown mfg. Roundhouse ? 34' flat car, plastic, lettered C.P.                  $$8.99  

               

              HOn3

              1.       D&RGW Long  Caboose wood construction #HOn3-129          $17.99

              Misc      Badger fiberglass spray booth,w/ extra filters, needs squirrel cage motor to complete. Also missing  is a piece of clear Plexiglas for top opening. $99.99

               

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15648 From: Nelson Date: 12/20/2010
              Subject: Cab Backward?
              I've seen conventional locos converted to Cab Forwards with the Kemtron kit, but I think this is the first time I've seen a Cab Forward converted into a conventional locomotive.

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140487472137

              I guess someone attempted a B&O EM-1 by putting a Big Boy pilot and open cab on a Rivarossi Cab Forward.

              Nelson
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15649 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/20/2010
              Subject: Re: Cab Backward?
              I have one that I converted to a C&O H7, 2-8-8-2 with an Elesco Feedwater heater, pumps on the smokebox, a large open cab and a 12 wheel Vanderbilt tenderThey were in the C&O 1570 series with Laird crossheads instead of Alligator typeI still have a few details to add.

              I also converted a Big Boy to a 2-8-8-2 with the same general layout of details including the feedwater heater.  It is a generic that they could have had before they built the Allegheny locos.
              Don Staton in VA.
              ========================================================================================================
              On 12/20/2010 12:20 PM, Nelson wrote:
               

              I've seen conventional locos converted to Cab Forwards with the Kemtron kit, but I think this is the first time I've seen a Cab Forward converted into a conventional locomotive.

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140487472137

              I guess someone attempted a B&O EM-1 by putting a Big Boy pilot and open cab on a Rivarossi Cab Forward.

              Nelson

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15650 From: jim heckard Date: 12/20/2010
              Subject: Arden-IMP-Red Ball RS's
               
               
                           For anyone interested I received the two engines I won on eBay ( Kemtron 1000 HP Baldwin Switcher & Red Ball Alco Road Switcher according to the labels on the boxes ). This Email will deal with the Red Ball Switcher as it compares to the Arden and IMP models. While there are detail differences in each I think they all were sold as RS-2's ( even if not totally matching the prototypes ).
               
                  While the Arden and IMP models are complete the Red Ball is not and also needs some work. In an effort to clear up some facts about each I quickly took my magic " Twinkle " cleaner to take the discoloration off the Red Ball body so I could make comparisons of the 3. Mainly the brass bodies, cabs and frames although as I have said there are detail differences .I have sent pictures of different views to try to show each.
               
                 Sorry some of the pictures are dark but I think you can see who ever made the brass bodies and cabs everything about them, even the number of parts to assemble them look the same to me. The raised details ( etchings ? ) on the long and short bodies match line for line. As someone mentioned the added details on the Red Ball engine were a cast metal. The added details on the Arden and IMP are cast brass.
               
                 Each engine has it's own type motor and drive as picture two will show so there is some differences in the frames but only as it relates to what each used.
               
                What I am trying to sort out in my mind is who made what, where and when. Were the brass bodies, cabs, frames ( with front, back and side handrails ) all made by the same company but sold by many companies or were parts made by one company and copied by others. Since it is a model of the same engine much of the engines should have a similar look but these are a little to close to me. 
               
                With all respect to who ever was first it is important to me ( to get the history right)  to find out dates as to when each HO model engine was first sold. That will tell you which engine was the first and which are most likely copies unless the same company made all 3.
               
                Again the dates I have, from a number of sources,  but not written in stone are:   Arden   1950,   IMP 1951  and Red Ball 1952. If anyone has information or product reports in magazines like Model Railroader or Railroad Model Craftsman saying anything to the contrary I would be grateful to hear about it. Thank You in advance for any help you can provide.
               
                                                                   Merry Christmas,
                                                                     Jim H
               
               
               
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15651 From: Nelson Date: 12/20/2010
              Subject: Re: Cab Backward?
              Do you have any photos of those bashes, Don?

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
              >
              > /I have one that I converted to a C&O H7, 2-8-8-2 with an Elesco
              > Feedwater heater, pumps on the smokebox, a large open cab and a 12 wheel
              > Vanderbilt tender/. /They were in the C&O 1570 series/ /with Laird
              > crossheads instead of Alligator type/. /I still have a few details to add./
              >
              > /I also converted a Big Boy to a 2-8-8-2 with the same general layout of
              > details including the feedwater heater./ /It is a generic that they
              > could have had before they built the Allegheny locos./
              > /Don Staton in VA./
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15652 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/20/2010
              Subject: Re: Cab Backward?
              Not yet but I will work on it...
              Don Staton in VA
              ==================================================

              On 12/20/2010 5:11 PM, Nelson wrote:
               

              Do you have any photos of those bashes, Don?

              Nelson

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Donald R. Staton" <chpln1@...> wrote:
              >
              > /I have one that I converted to a C&O H7, 2-8-8-2 with an Elesco
              > Feedwater heater, pumps on the smokebox, a large open cab and a 12 wheel
              > Vanderbilt tender/. /They were in the C&O 1570 series/ /with Laird
              > crossheads instead of Alligator type/. /I still have a few details to add./
              >
              > /I also converted a Big Boy to a 2-8-8-2 with the same general layout of
              > details including the feedwater heater./ /It is a generic that they
              > could have had before they built the Allegheny locos./
              > /Don Staton in VA./
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15653 From: jim heckard Date: 12/20/2010
              Subject: Correction
               Hi
               
                  I must apologize as I switched the Arden and IMP models in the 2nd picture showing the bottom and the drive. The Arden is on the top and the IMP is in the middle.
               
                                                            Jim H
               
                                                                                            
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15654 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/20/2010
              Subject: Re: Correction

              Jim,

              I was just going to reply to the first one, you should put stickers on to identify one from the other.

              Take care,

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 6:02 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Correction

               

               

               Hi

               

                  I must apologize as I switched the Arden and IMP models in the 2nd picture showing the bottom and the drive. The Arden is on the top and the IMP is in the middle.

               

                                                            Jim H

               

                                                                                            

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15655 From: jim heckard Date: 12/20/2010
              Subject: Re: Correction
                 Hi Chuck,
               
                     This just goes to prove I have not learned to walk on water and make mistakes but it is the type of mistake that you should not make when you are explaining facts. I was in a hurry to leave and after writing so many things I didn't check the pictures. Sorry. Putting a sticker on each before taking a number of pictures is a good idea so this wouldn't happen.
               
                                                                      Jim
               
                
               
                                                                         
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 6:25 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Correction

               

              Jim,

              I was just going to reply to the first one, you should put stickers on to identify one from the other.

              Take care,

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of jim heckard
              Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 6:02 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Correction

               

               Hi

                  I must apologize as I switched the Arden and IMP models in the 2nd picture showing the bottom and the drive. The Arden is on the top and the IMP is in the middle.

                                                            Jim H

                                                                                            

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15656 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/20/2010
              Subject: Red Ball brass (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2)
              Add to the Red Ball list:

              In 1867 they advertised that they would be importing a PRR B6sb 0-6-0 (along
              with the aforementioned K4 and Trainmaster), and in the late 60's-70's also
              brought in an Erie Built (I have one, with provenance, courtesy Sean N.)

              The Erie was a KMT, same as the later Alco Models one.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <glenn476@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:26 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2's


              >I can recall one example of the same model being imported by different
              > importers. A friend had two HO 55-foot McKeen motor cars--one box said
              > Ken
              > Kidder, the other was LMB. -- I knowthey were identical as I was his
              > "shop
              > foreman" and worked on both. gj
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------
              > From: "Model RailRoad" <mrrwarehouse@...>
              > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:15 AM
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2's
              >
              >> Yes, Howell Day imported brass locos from Japan. Off the top of my head
              >> they included: "Trainmaster" diesel, Baldwin "Baby Face" double ended CNJ
              >> diesel, PRR K4, a camel back or two, at least two "inspection engines
              >> (steam with passenger car body), HO and HOn3 0-4-4-0 and 0-4-0 variations
              >> and a tiny railbys/railtruck, circus flat car in the 1960s. The two
              >> diesel switchers (EMD and RS) predate these.
              >>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15657 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/20/2010
              Subject: Red Ball brass (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2)
              Don-
              I knew this was the VINTAGE H0 list....but 1867?
              Dave

              >
              > Add to the Red Ball list:
              >
              > In 1867 they advertised that they would be importing a PRR B6sb 0-6-0 (along
              > with the aforementioned K4 and Trainmaster), and in the late 60's-70's also
              > brought in an Erie Built (I have one, with provenance, courtesy Sean N.)
              >
              > The Erie was a KMT, same as the later Alco Models one.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <glenn476@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:26 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2's
              >
              >
              > >I can recall one example of the same model being imported by different
              > > importers. A friend had two HO 55-foot McKeen motor cars--one box said
              > > Ken
              > > Kidder, the other was LMB. -- I knowthey were identical as I was his
              > > "shop
              > > foreman" and worked on both. gj
              > >
              > > --------------------------------------------------
              > > From: "Model RailRoad" <mrrwarehouse@...>
              > > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:15 AM
              > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2's
              > >
              > >> Yes, Howell Day imported brass locos from Japan. Off the top of my head
              > >> they included: "Trainmaster" diesel, Baldwin "Baby Face" double ended CNJ
              > >> diesel, PRR K4, a camel back or two, at least two "inspection engines
              > >> (steam with passenger car body), HO and HOn3 0-4-4-0 and 0-4-0 variations
              > >> and a tiny railbys/railtruck, circus flat car in the 1960s. The two
              > >> diesel switchers (EMD and RS) predate these.
              > >>
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15658 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Cab Backward?
              Hi guys!
               
              Strangely enough...he has NO close-ups of the cab area...which I would think would be of most interest. Maybe it is botched, which would explain the excessive BIN price as well as the lack of photos.
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: Nelson <greenbrier614@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 12:20:57 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Cab Backward?

               

              I've seen conventional locos converted to Cab Forwards with the Kemtron kit, but I think this is the first time I've seen a Cab Forward converted into a conventional locomotive.

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140487472137

              I guess someone attempted a B&O EM-1 by putting a Big Boy pilot and open cab on a Rivarossi Cab Forward.

              Nelson


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15659 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball brass (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2)
              Don, Dave,
               
              Was the PRR B6sb 0-6-0 even around in 1867?
               
              he he
               
               
              Sean
               
              1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!



              From: trainsnwrcs <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 12:49:50 AM
              Subject: Red Ball brass (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2)

               

              Don-
              I knew this was the VINTAGE H0 list....but 1867?
              Dave

              >
              > Add to the Red Ball list:
              >
              > In 1867 they advertised that they would be importing a PRR B6sb 0-6-0 (along
              > with the aforementioned K4 and Trainmaster), and in the late 60's-70's also
              > brought in an Erie Built (I have one, with provenance, courtesy Sean N.)
              >
              > The Erie was a KMT, same as the later Alco Models one.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <glenn476@...>
              > To: <
              ymailto="mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com">vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:26 AM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2's
              >
              >
              > >I can recall one example of the same model being imported by different
              > > importers. A friend had two HO 55-foot McKeen motor cars--one box said
              > > Ken
              > > Kidder, the other was LMB. -- I knowthey were identical as I was his
              > > "shop
              > > foreman" and worked on both. gj
              > >
              > > --------------------------------------------------
              > > From: "Model RailRoad" <mrrwarehouse@...>
              > > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:15 AM
              > > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of
              RS-2's
              > >
              > >> Yes, Howell Day imported brass locos from Japan. Off the top of my head
              > >> they included: "Trainmaster" diesel, Baldwin "Baby Face" double ended CNJ
              > >> diesel, PRR K4, a camel back or two, at least two "inspection engines
              > >> (steam with passenger car body), HO and HOn3 0-4-4-0 and 0-4-0 variations
              > >> and a tiny railbys/railtruck, circus flat car in the 1960s. The two
              > >> diesel switchers (EMD and RS) predate these.
              > >>
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15660 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Thanks for posting these photos Mike, and also thanks for the history update. I can see that you got the nice original one. The second version, the one I have, is not even painted the correct lemon yellow color, like yours is. I did get the sprung trucks, but my car was not adequately described on eBay as when I received it, it is missing the complete underframe and brake equipment. The only underframe piece I have on the car is one bolster and you can see where the rest of the frame was broken off. Maybe I can pick up a cheap Varney junker gondola that can be a frame donor, OR, I can make my own fishbelly frame. :o)
              It would be really cool to build one of these from scratch if I could figure out how to make decals. It looks like Varney did a nice job of pad printing on these cars.
              Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              >
              > I finally managed to remember to get some images of my OSTUCO car and
              > posted them in the album "Mike Sloane's Vintage stuff".
              >
              > As noted, the care is essentially stock, except that the stirrup steps
              > were damaged somehow and replaced with Tuttle Industries (I think), and
              > I installed KayDee couplers. The trucks and wheels are also original -
              > with real springs in the sideframes.
              >
              > Down the center channel of the "frame" are the words "Varney"
              > vertically, and the number "1721" with a large "B". And, of course,
              > there is my terrible "weathering" job. Hey, who know that it would some
              > day be a rare bird?
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 12/15/2010 3:16 PM, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              > > I am kind of curious. The car you have looks similar to the Varney cars,
              > > but there is one difference, aside from the safe loading end, and that
              > > is on yours, the interior is braced with triangular gussets. The Varney
              > > cars don't have them. Also, all of the Varney cars I have seen are more
              > > of an Yellow/Orange, whereas yours is a more Lemon Yellow, and according
              > > to the prototype write up, it shuld be Lemon Yellow. Is yours a Varney
              > > Car? And YES, I would very much like to see more and better pictures.
              > > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              > >
              > > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I can only tell you that my OSTUCO model was assembled just the way it
              > > > came from the manufacturer/distributor. The only modifications were the
              > > > Kadee couplers and my poor attempts at "weathering". See:
              > > >
              > > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/varneyauthenticast.html>
              > > >
              > > > I can get some better images if anyone feels they need them. Lemme
              > > know...
              > > >
              > > > Mike
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15661 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              I seem to remember that someone made decals for the OSTUCO car at one
              time. If you want to build one, I suggest that you start with a regular
              50(?) foot gondola and modify the end, as the Varney car is about 10'
              too short. I don't think the end would be all that hard to fabricate.

              I *think* that I might have an image of the prototype car somewhere, and
              I know for sure that it appeared in one of the modeling magazines about
              30 years ago. If I can find that issue, I will scan it and put the file
              up in the "files" section". Maybe someone more organized than me
              (wouldn't take much to be more organized than me), can find it quicker
              and do the job.

              Mike

              On 12/21/2010 12:44 PM, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              > Thanks for posting these photos Mike, and also thanks for the history
              > update. I can see that you got the nice original one. The second
              > version, the one I have, is not even painted the correct lemon yellow
              > color, like yours is. I did get the sprung trucks, but my car was not
              > adequately described on eBay as when I received it, it is missing the
              > complete underframe and brake equipment. The only underframe piece I
              > have on the car is one bolster and you can see where the rest of the
              > frame was broken off. Maybe I can pick up a cheap Varney junker gondola
              > that can be a frame donor, OR, I can make my own fishbelly frame. :o)
              > It would be really cool to build one of these from scratch if I could
              > figure out how to make decals. It looks like Varney did a nice job of
              > pad printing on these cars.
              > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vintageHO%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I finally managed to remember to get some images of my OSTUCO car and
              > > posted them in the album "Mike Sloane's Vintage stuff".
              > >
              > > As noted, the care is essentially stock, except that the stirrup steps
              > > were damaged somehow and replaced with Tuttle Industries (I think), and
              > > I installed KayDee couplers. The trucks and wheels are also original -
              > > with real springs in the sideframes.
              > >
              > > Down the center channel of the "frame" are the words "Varney"
              > > vertically, and the number "1721" with a large "B". And, of course,
              > > there is my terrible "weathering" job. Hey, who know that it would some
              > > day be a rare bird?
              > >
              > > Mike
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15662 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /ostuco1.jpg
              Uploaded by : mikesloane <mikesloane@...>
              Description : OSTUCO gondola article, first page

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/ostuco1.jpg

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
              Regards,

              mikesloane <mikesloane@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15663 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hello,

              This email message is a notification to let you know that
              a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              group.

              File : /ostuco2.jpg
              Uploaded by : mikesloane <mikesloane@...>
              Description : OSTUCO gondola article,second page

              You can access this file at the URL:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/ostuco2.jpg

              To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
              Regards,

              mikesloane <mikesloane@...>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15664 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              As you can see in the recent messages, I found the article with the
              OSTUCO car. But it was something that I downloaded from somewhere else,
              not my own magazine. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the images that
              tells which magazine it came from. But the details of the 47' car are
              nicely done. I imagine that someone could scan the drawing and make
              their own decals. Judging by the presence of horn/hook couplers on the
              model, I am guessing that the article goes back to the '60s, not that it
              really matters.

              Mike

              On 12/21/2010 12:44 PM, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              > Thanks for posting these photos Mike, and also thanks for the history
              > update. I can see that you got the nice original one. The second
              > version, the one I have, is not even painted the correct lemon yellow
              > color, like yours is. I did get the sprung trucks, but my car was not
              > adequately described on eBay as when I received it, it is missing the
              > complete underframe and brake equipment. The only underframe piece I
              > have on the car is one bolster and you can see where the rest of the
              > frame was broken off. Maybe I can pick up a cheap Varney junker gondola
              > that can be a frame donor, OR, I can make my own fishbelly frame. :o)
              > It would be really cool to build one of these from scratch if I could
              > figure out how to make decals. It looks like Varney did a nice job of
              > pad printing on these cars.
              > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15665 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Red Ball brass (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2)
              I remember it well.

              Don


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 11:49 PM
              Subject: Red Ball brass (was Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2)


              > Don-
              > I knew this was the VINTAGE H0 list....but 1867?
              > Dave
              >
              >>
              >> Add to the Red Ball list:
              >>
              >> In 1867 they advertised that they would be importing a PRR B6sb 0-6-0
              >> (along
              >> with the aforementioned K4 and Trainmaster), and in the late 60's-70's
              >> also
              >> brought in an Erie Built (I have one, with provenance, courtesy Sean N.)
              >>
              >> The Erie was a KMT, same as the later Alco Models one.
              >>
              >> Don
              >>
              >> Don Dellmann
              >> don.dellmann@...
              >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              >> http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              >> Owner
              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >>
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: <glenn476@...>
              >> To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:26 AM
              >> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2's
              >>
              >>
              >> >I can recall one example of the same model being imported by different
              >> > importers. A friend had two HO 55-foot McKeen motor cars--one box
              >> > said
              >> > Ken
              >> > Kidder, the other was LMB. -- I knowthey were identical as I was his
              >> > "shop
              >> > foreman" and worked on both. gj
              >> >
              >> > --------------------------------------------------
              >> > From: "Model RailRoad" <mrrwarehouse@...>
              >> > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:15 AM
              >> > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              >> > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Comparison of RS-2's
              >> >
              >> >> Yes, Howell Day imported brass locos from Japan. Off the top of my
              >> >> head
              >> >> they included: "Trainmaster" diesel, Baldwin "Baby Face" double ended
              >> >> CNJ
              >> >> diesel, PRR K4, a camel back or two, at least two "inspection engines
              >> >> (steam with passenger car body), HO and HOn3 0-4-4-0 and 0-4-0
              >> >> variations
              >> >> and a tiny railbys/railtruck, circus flat car in the 1960s. The two
              >> >> diesel switchers (EMD and RS) predate these.
              >> >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15666 From: John Hagen Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Per the drawing, the stripes are red. Is all the lettering and the logo also
              red? If I know the color, and get three orders, I'll do decals with all new,
              SVG artwork for $10.00 each. IF I get six orders I'll do 'em for $7.00.

              John Hagen


              -----Original Message-----
              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Mike Sloane
              Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:17 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car

              As you can see in the recent messages, I found the article with the
              OSTUCO car. But it was something that I downloaded from somewhere else,
              not my own magazine. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the images that
              tells which magazine it came from. But the details of the 47' car are
              nicely done. I imagine that someone could scan the drawing and make
              their own decals. Judging by the presence of horn/hook couplers on the
              model, I am guessing that the article goes back to the '60s, not that it
              really matters.

              Mike

              On 12/21/2010 12:44 PM, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              > Thanks for posting these photos Mike, and also thanks for the history
              > update. I can see that you got the nice original one. The second
              > version, the one I have, is not even painted the correct lemon yellow
              > color, like yours is. I did get the sprung trucks, but my car was not
              > adequately described on eBay as when I received it, it is missing the
              > complete underframe and brake equipment. The only underframe piece I
              > have on the car is one bolster and you can see where the rest of the
              > frame was broken off. Maybe I can pick up a cheap Varney junker gondola
              > that can be a frame donor, OR, I can make my own fishbelly frame. :o)
              > It would be really cool to build one of these from scratch if I could
              > figure out how to make decals. It looks like Varney did a nice job of
              > pad printing on these cars.
              > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris


              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15667 From: Mike Sloane Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              According to the Varney model, the top and bottem stripes are red, the
              "OSTUCO" logo is red, and the lettering is black. I can only assume that
              was based on information from the people at Ohio Seemless Tube.

              The article in the magazine suggests that there is only the bottom red
              stripe, while the model has a top and bottom stripe. I suppose, since
              there was more than one of these cars, not all were lettered identically
              - especially if they were using a variety of used gondolas from
              different sources.

              Mike

              On 12/21/2010 4:19 PM, John Hagen wrote:
              > Per the drawing, the stripes are red. Is all the lettering and the logo also
              > red? If I know the color, and get three orders, I'll do decals with all new,
              > SVG artwork for $10.00 each. IF I get six orders I'll do 'em for $7.00.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15668 From: Fred Hultberg Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Walthers HO 660's
              Thanks, Jim!

              Fred Hultberg(resident etching wizard, Fotocut®)
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15669 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO

              Hi Ray,

              Well, I pulled the Lockhart items from the Laconia file and created a Lockhart file.  I need to recheck the below three cars. 

              Take care,

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of erieberk
              Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:58 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO

               

               



              Hi Chuck,

              Just got done reviewing what new info you've added to the files for the car side numbers I submitted. My apologies for not being more specific on the manufacturer name's list I meant them to be added to. I guess I just assumed that with them having The catalog numbers of "TR-xx" and "TB-xx" that you would have put them with the rest of the Lockhart-Laconia list that was already in place, and using those same prefixes -- although, as far as I can determine, these catalog numbers were originally the ones first used by Thomas H. Lockhart when they first started being produced in 1937 -- so, if you would, please transfer that new info to the file named; V List Binkley Laconia RevA/doc, under the Lockhart-Laconia Production Kits (pre-War, 1939)listing.

              You can designate the later ones as:

              TR- ? NYC Merchants Despatch (MDT) 37031 (introduced 1940)
              TB- ? Pennsylvania , Lg. Keystone 56556 (introduced 1940)
              and also add,
              TB- ? Pennsylvania , Round Roof 70311

              Incidentally, while T.H. Lockhart ceased to exist as an independent manufacturer after having been bought out and merged with Laconia in September of 1939, and Laconia didn't bring these kits back after the War, that wouldn't be the last we'd see of them. In the April 1959 issue of RMC, Hal Carstens included copies (on cardstock) of the Lockhart TR-6 NYC box car, although with one slight change. He omitted the herald so that the modeler could use decals of his choice in that place, for either the earlier NYC "Lines" or the newer NYC "System." Ray F.W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com wrote:

              >
              >
              > Hello,
              >
              > This email message is a notification to let you know that
              > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO
              > group.
              >
              > File : /V List Laconia cars.xls
              > Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
              > Description : List of Laconia models
              >
              > You can access this file at the URL:
              >
              href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Laconia%20cars.xls">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Laconia%20cars.xls
              >
              > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
              >
              href="http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles">http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15670 From: Nelson Date: 12/21/2010
              Subject: Re: Cab Backward?
              I was wondering about the cab myself, because the roof has a marked downward pitch. I can't tell if it was intentional or botched becuase the photos are so dark. Definitely a pig in a poke.

              Nelson


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Sean Naylor <a69mustang4me@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi guys!
              >
              > Strangely enough...he has NO close-ups of the cab area...which I would think
              > would be of most interest. Maybe it is botched, which would explain the
              > excessive BIN price as well as the lack of photos.
              >
              > Sean
              >  1967 & 1969 Fastback Mustangs Rule!
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15671 From: erieberk@wmconnect.com Date: 12/22/2010
              Subject: Re: New file uploaded to vintageHO
              Hi Chuck,

              Many thanks for creating the Lockhart file. As for the catalog numbers of
              the three Lockhart cars I've listed, which you're referring to, I don't have
              the suffix (number) for them -- only the prefix (TR and TB).

              Ray F.W.</HTML>
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15672 From: bitlerisvj@hotmail.com Date: 12/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              I am in. 
              Maybe we can get more folks to order these?  How about if I post to the Railway_Decal_Express_Agency Yahoo Group to see how many people may be interested?  If we get 6 people to order, I will go for 3 sets myself.  Let me know what you think.
              According to the article and photos in the Kalmbach book, "Easy to Build Model Railroad Freight Cars", "The prototype cars are lemon yellow on sides and ends.  Underbody and trucks are red oxide __ Floquil boxcar red is about right.  Lettering is black.  The herald and thin horizontal stripe at top and bottom of the car are red."  The prototype photo shows a stripe at the top and at the bottom, so Varney was accurate there.  The prototype drawings show a 47' mill gondola with a fish belly underframe.  The Varney car is a shorty at 42', but I expect that it was made for the market of the 1950's and 60's using sharp radius curves.
              By the way, I can send up close photos of the reporting marks, if that will make it easier to do the decals.  But, to reiterate, all the lettering is black.  The stripes and logo(including logo lettering) are red.  One important item on the prototype vs. Varney, is that the logo on the prototype stood alone in its own panel.  The Varney car has the last two letters of the word Division encroaching the logo.  We would not want that discrepancy.
              Regards, Vic Bitleris
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
              >
              > Per the drawing, the stripes are red. Is all the lettering and the logo also
              > red? If I know the color, and get three orders, I'll do decals with all new,
              > SVG artwork for $10.00 each. IF I get six orders I'll do 'em for $7.00.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              > Of Mike Sloane
              > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:17 PM
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              >
              > As you can see in the recent messages, I found the article with the
              > OSTUCO car. But it was something that I downloaded from somewhere else,
              > not my own magazine. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the images that
              > tells which magazine it came from. But the details of the 47' car are
              > nicely done. I imagine that someone could scan the drawing and make
              > their own decals. Judging by the presence of horn/hook couplers on the
              > model, I am guessing that the article goes back to the '60s, not that it
              > really matters.
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 12/21/2010 12:44 PM, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              > > Thanks for posting these photos Mike, and also thanks for the history
              > > update. I can see that you got the nice original one. The second
              > > version, the one I have, is not even painted the correct lemon yellow
              > > color, like yours is. I did get the sprung trucks, but my car was not
              > > adequately described on eBay as when I received it, it is missing the
              > > complete underframe and brake equipment. The only underframe piece I
              > > have on the car is one bolster and you can see where the rest of the
              > > frame was broken off. Maybe I can pick up a cheap Varney junker gondola
              > > that can be a frame donor, OR, I can make my own fishbelly frame. :o)
              > > It would be really cool to build one of these from scratch if I could
              > > figure out how to make decals. It looks like Varney did a nice job of
              > > pad printing on these cars.
              > > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15673 From: cheez_eric Date: 12/23/2010
              Subject: Grant Hobbycraft
              Hey everyone. I was told that if anyone could give me info on some vintage trains, it would be you guys. :D I have a number of metal streamliners made by a Canadian company called "Grant Hobbycraft and Toys Limited". Other than a floor diagram on HOseeker, there doesn't seem to be a single thing on the net about them. Does anyone here know anything about the company?

              Here are a few pics:

              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09019.jpg
              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09020.jpg
              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09012.jpg

              -Eric
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15674 From: Jay Date: 12/23/2010
              Subject: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Hi All,

              Back in 1963 or 1964, Ohio Seamless Tube offered free (and beautiful red and black) HO scale decals sets (with stripes)for those who wished to model the car, based on plans and photos in Model Railroader. JW Barnard was a B&O modeler frequently featured in MR, who also happened to be the PR director of Ohio Seamless. As a kid, I sent for the decals, which came with a nice, illustrated letter showing Barnard's model and the prototype, I believe.

              I built a scale length car by butting together parts from two Varney type gons, sawing out one end, then making new correctly spaced side ribs and the hoist frame from Plastruct shapes. I made the railings from soldered brass wire. It is still one of my favorite models, and I have a small string of the varney editions as well. If I were to build a scale model today, I would use one of the Walthers 47' USRA type hoppers for a start as that is what I believe the prototype was based upon.

              What was funny about the article was that the Model Railroader editors "sniffed" that someone had commercially done the car, but they had never seen it....but it was shown on a Varney full page rear cover ad in MR less than a year before. I guess the MR editor never read the complete magazine once it was printed, LOL!

              Now all "we" have to do is locate a set of those completely scale decals and the letter, and copy them. I may know someone who still has an extra set and will check, but it will have to be right after the holiday weekend.

              Have a Merry Christams or Happy Holiday Weekend, All!

              W Jay W.



              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              >
              > I am in.
              > Maybe we can get more folks to order these? How about if I post to the
              > Railway_Decal_Express_Agency Yahoo Group to see how many people may be
              > interested? If we get 6 people to order, I will go for 3 sets myself.
              > Let me know what you think.
              > According to the article and photos in the Kalmbach book, "Easy to Build
              > Model Railroad Freight Cars", "The prototype cars are lemon yellow on
              > sides and ends. Underbody and trucks are red oxide __ Floquil boxcar
              > red is about right. Lettering is black. The herald and thin horizontal
              > stripe at top and bottom of the car are red." The prototype photo shows
              > a stripe at the top and at the bottom, so Varney was accurate there.
              > The prototype drawings show a 47' mill gondola with a fish belly
              > underframe. The Varney car is a shorty at 42', but I expect that it was
              > made for the market of the 1950's and 60's using sharp radius curves.
              > By the way, I can send up close photos of the reporting marks, if that
              > will make it easier to do the decals. But, to reiterate, all the
              > lettering is black. The stripes and logo(including logo lettering) are
              > red. One important item on the prototype vs. Varney, is that the logo
              > on the prototype stood alone in its own panel. The Varney car has the
              > last two letters of the word Division encroaching the logo. We would
              > not want that discrepancy.
              > Regards, Vic Bitleris
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Per the drawing, the stripes are red. Is all the lettering and the
              > logo also
              > > red? If I know the color, and get three orders, I'll do decals with
              > all new,
              > > SVG artwork for $10.00 each. IF I get six orders I'll do 'em for
              > $7.00.
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf
              > > Of Mike Sloane
              > > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:17 PM
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              > >
              > > As you can see in the recent messages, I found the article with the
              > > OSTUCO car. But it was something that I downloaded from somewhere
              > else,
              > > not my own magazine. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the images
              > that
              > > tells which magazine it came from. But the details of the 47' car are
              > > nicely done. I imagine that someone could scan the drawing and make
              > > their own decals. Judging by the presence of horn/hook couplers on the
              > > model, I am guessing that the article goes back to the '60s, not that
              > it
              > > really matters.
              > >
              > > Mike
              > >
              > > On 12/21/2010 12:44 PM, bitlerisvj@ wrote:
              > > > Thanks for posting these photos Mike, and also thanks for the
              > history
              > > > update. I can see that you got the nice original one. The second
              > > > version, the one I have, is not even painted the correct lemon
              > yellow
              > > > color, like yours is. I did get the sprung trucks, but my car was
              > not
              > > > adequately described on eBay as when I received it, it is missing
              > the
              > > > complete underframe and brake equipment. The only underframe piece I
              > > > have on the car is one bolster and you can see where the rest of the
              > > > frame was broken off. Maybe I can pick up a cheap Varney junker
              > gondola
              > > > that can be a frame donor, OR, I can make my own fishbelly frame.
              > :o)
              > > > It would be really cool to build one of these from scratch if I
              > could
              > > > figure out how to make decals. It looks like Varney did a nice job
              > of
              > > > pad printing on these cars.
              > > > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15675 From: jim heckard Date: 12/23/2010
              Subject: Grant Hobbycraft
               
               
              Eric,
               
               
                  I will tell you what I know about Grant Hobbycraft and Toys of Canada. First there was discussion on this site about this company. If you read back messages you might find that thread.
               
                It is my paper of the floor plans in hoseeker. It is the only paperwork I have. I'm glad to see the original box you have and actually it would be good to send a picture of it to the hoseeker site to be included.
               
                   I sent pictures to help and now onto what I know. At a train show years ago I purchased 6 cars. They were in a box, not original,  with the handwritten words Hobby Craft of Canada on them. The paper work you saw on hoseeker was with them and had the letters CPR ( Canadian Pacific Railroad  ? ) hand written and circled at the top right. I am told these passenger car are of Canadian designs.There were no trucks with mine. They are plastic bodies with metal floors that are predrilled to accept a number of detail pieces provided depending on which car you had. Little plastic bags of detail parts were with each car. ( I have tried to show some of these parts ) I don't know how many different types of cars they made. I have four different cars with the other two being doubles. A Baggage, RPO, Coach and I think the last is a Diner( ? ).
               
                 I think these are the same cars and good to know the name is one word  ( Hobbycraft ). As far as the company itself others had submitted information which I mentioned would be in back messages.
               
                                                                           Jim H
               
                
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15676 From: John Barlow Date: 12/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Jay...
               
              Varney made one as "GT-101 Tube Car...Ohio Seamless Tube", originally selling for $1.49.
              I paid more for mine a few years ago, and I've seen another listed recently on the site from the same place I bought mine. Car number I have is " OSTX 1908", but that number may have appeared on all the cars made.
               
              John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)

              --- On Thu, 12/23/10, Jay <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

              From: Jay <the_plainsman@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010, 3:14 PM

               
              Hi All,

              Back in 1963 or 1964, Ohio Seamless Tube offered free (and beautiful red and black) HO scale decals sets (with stripes)for those who wished to model the car, based on plans and photos in Model Railroader. JW Barnard was a B&O modeler frequently featured in MR, who also happened to be the PR director of Ohio Seamless. As a kid, I sent for the decals, which came with a nice, illustrated letter showing Barnard's model and the prototype, I believe.

              I built a scale length car by butting together parts from two Varney type gons, sawing out one end, then making new correctly spaced side ribs and the hoist frame from Plastruct shapes. I made the railings from soldered brass wire. It is still one of my favorite models, and I have a small string of the varney editions as well. If I were to build a scale model today, I would use one of the Walthers 47' USRA type hoppers for a start as that is what I believe the prototype was based upon.

              What was funny about the article was that the Model Railroader editors "sniffed" that someone had commercially done the car, but they had never seen it....but it was shown on a Varney full page rear cover ad in MR less than a year before. I guess the MR editor never read the complete magazine once it was printed, LOL!

              Now all "we" have to do is locate a set of those completely scale decals and the letter, and copy them. I may know someone who still has an extra set and will check, but it will have to be right after the holiday weekend.

              Have a Merry Christams or Happy Holiday Weekend, All!

              W Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              >
              > I am in.
              > Maybe we can get more folks to order these? How about if I post to the
              > Railway_Decal_Express_Agency Yahoo Group to see how many people may be
              > interested? If we get 6 people to order, I will go for 3 sets myself.
              > Let me know what you think.
              > According to the article and photos in the Kalmbach book, "Easy to Build
              > Model Railroad Freight Cars", "The prototype cars are lemon yellow on
              > sides and ends. Underbody and trucks are red oxide __ Floquil boxcar
              > red is about right. Lettering is black. The herald and thin horizontal
              > stripe at top and bottom of the car are red." The prototype photo shows
              > a stripe at the top and at the bottom, so Varney was accurate there.
              > The prototype drawings show a 47' mill gondola with a fish belly
              > underframe. The Varney car is a shorty at 42', but I expect that it was
              > made for the market of the 1950's and 60's using sharp radius curves.
              > By the way, I can send up close photos of the reporting marks, if that
              > will make it easier to do the decals. But, to reiterate, all the
              > lettering is black. The stripes and logo(including logo lettering) are
              > red. One important item on the prototype vs. Varney, is that the logo
              > on the prototype stood alone in its own panel. The Varney car has the
              > last two letters of the word Division encroaching the logo. We would
              > not want that discrepancy.
              > Regards, Vic Bitleris
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Per the drawing, the stripes are red. Is all the lettering and the
              > logo also
              > > red? If I know the color, and get three orders, I'll do decals with
              > all new,
              > > SVG artwork for $10.00 each. IF I get six orders I'll do 'em for
              > $7.00.
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf
              > > Of Mike Sloane
              > > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:17 PM
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              > >
              > > As you can see in the recent messages, I found the article with the
              > > OSTUCO car. But it was something that I downloaded from somewhere
              > else,
              > > not my own magazine. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the images
              > that
              > > tells which magazine it came from. But the details of the 47' car are
              > > nicely done. I imagine that someone could scan the drawing and make
              > > their own decals. Judging by the presence of horn/hook couplers on the
              > > model, I am guessing that the article goes back to the '60s, not that
              > it
              > > really matters.
              > >
              > > Mike
              > >
              > > On 12/21/2010 12:44 PM, bitlerisvj@ wrote:
              > > > Thanks for posting these photos Mike, and also thanks for the
              > history
              > > > update. I can see that you got the nice original one. The second
              > > > version, the one I have, is not even painted the correct lemon
              > yellow
              > > > color, like yours is. I did get the sprung trucks, but my car was
              > not
              > > > adequately described on eBay as when I received it, it is missing
              > the
              > > > complete underframe and brake equipment. The only underframe piece I
              > > > have on the car is one bolster and you can see where the rest of the
              > > > frame was broken off. Maybe I can pick up a cheap Varney junker
              > gondola
              > > > that can be a frame donor, OR, I can make my own fishbelly frame.
              > :o)
              > > > It would be really cool to build one of these from scratch if I
              > could
              > > > figure out how to make decals. It looks like Varney did a nice job
              > of
              > > > pad printing on these cars.
              > > > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15677 From: Jay Wanczyk Date: 12/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Hi John B.,
               
              There are actually two Varney varieties as well, same paint scheme and road number on a regular gon woth both closed ends and also on the open end model with overhead frame, and brass railing. I am not at home right now, so can not supply the other Varney catalog number right now.
               
              I do not know if OSTUCO had more than the one prototype car, as the OSTUCO decals and both Varney models all used the same car number that you mentioned, "OSTX 1908."  If someone has access to a Railway Equipment Register, they might check to see if there were additional prototypical car numbers - something I always wanted to look up.
               
              Back in the fifties and early sixties, at least one other industry made HO scale decals avaiable to modelers as well - a white chemical tank car - the name escapes me right now.  It would certainly be fun to track down models made with the various free prototype decals.
               
              W Jay W.
               

               


              From: John Barlow <jdenver4150@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, December 23, 2010 5:38:16 PM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car

               

              Jay...
               
              Varney made one as "GT-101 Tube Car...Ohio Seamless Tube", originally selling for $1.49.
              I paid more for mine a few years ago, and I've seen another listed recently on the site from the same place I bought mine. Car number I have is " OSTX 1908", but that number may have appeared on all the cars made.
               
              John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)

              --- On Thu, 12/23/10, Jay <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

              From: Jay <the_plainsman@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010, 3:14 PM

               
              Hi All,

              Back in 1963 or 1964, Ohio Seamless Tube offered free (and beautiful red and black) HO scale decals sets (with stripes)for those who wished to model the car, based on plans and photos in Model Railroader. JW Barnard was a B&O modeler frequently featured in MR, who also happened to be the PR director of Ohio Seamless. As a kid, I sent for the decals, which came with a nice, illustrated letter showing Barnard's model and the prototype, I believe.

              I built a scale length car by butting together parts from two Varney type gons, sawing out one end, then making new correctly spaced side ribs and the hoist frame from Plastruct shapes. I made the railings from soldered brass wire. It is still one of my favorite models, and I have a small string of the varney editions as well. If I were to build a scale model today, I would use one of the Walthers 47' USRA type hoppers for a start as that is what I believe the prototype was based upon.

              What was funny about the article was that the Model Railroader editors "sniffed" that someone had commercially done the car, but they had never seen it....but it was shown on a Varney full page rear cover ad in MR less than a year before. I guess the MR editor never read the complete magazine once it was printed, LOL!

              Now all "we" have to do is locate a set of those completely scale decals and the letter, and copy them. I may know someone who still has an extra set and will check, but it will have to be right after the holiday weekend.

              Have a Merry Christams or Happy Holiday Weekend, All!

              W Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              >
              > I am in.
              > Maybe we can get more folks to order these? How about if I post to the
              > Railway_Decal_Express_Agency Yahoo Group to see how many people may be
              > interested? If we get 6 people to order, I will go for 3 sets myself.
              > Let me know what you think.
              > According to the article and photos in the Kalmbach book, "Easy to Build
              > Model Railroad Freight Cars", "The prototype cars are lemon yellow on
              > sides and ends. Underbody and trucks are red oxide __ Floquil boxcar
              > red is about right. Lettering is black. The herald and thin horizontal
              > stripe at top and bottom of the car are red." The prototype photo shows
              > a stripe at the top and at the bottom, so Varney was accurate there.
              > The prototype drawings show a 47' mill gondola with a fish belly
              > underframe. The Varney car is a shorty at 42', but I expect that it was
              > made for the market of the 1950's and 60's using sharp radius curves.
              > By the way, I can send up close photos of the reporting marks, if that
              > will make it easier to do the decals. But, to reiterate, all the
              > lettering is black. The stripes and logo(including logo lettering) are
              > red. One important item on the prototype vs. Varney, is that the logo
              > on the prototype stood alone in its own panel. The Varney car has the
              > last two letters of the word Division encroaching the logo. We would
              > not want that discrepancy.
              > Regards, Vic Bitleris
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Per the drawing, the stripes are red. Is all the lettering and the
              > logo also
              > > red? If I know the color, and get three orders, I'll do decals with
              > all new,
              > > SVG artwork for $10.00 each. IF I get six orders I'll do 'em for
              > $7.00.
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf
              > > Of Mike Sloane
              > > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:17 PM
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              > >
              > > As you can see in the recent messages, I found the article with the
              > > OSTUCO car. But it was something that I downloaded from somewhere
              > else,
              > > not my own magazine. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the images
              > that
              > > tells which magazine it came from. But the details of the 47' car are
              > > nicely done. I imagine that someone could scan the drawing and make
              > > their own decals. Judging by the presence of horn/hook couplers on the
              > > model, I am guessing that the article goes back to the '60s, not that
              > it
              > > really matters.
              > >
              > > Mike
              > >
              > > On 12/21/2010 12:44 PM, bitlerisvj@ wrote:
              > > > Thanks for posting these photos Mike, and also thanks for the
              > history
              > > > update. I can see that you got the nice original one. The second
              > > > version, the one I have, is not even painted the correct lemon
              > yellow
              > > > color, like yours is. I did get the sprung trucks, but my car was
              > not
              > > > adequately described on eBay as when I received it, it is missing
              > the
              > > > complete underframe and brake equipment. The only underframe piece I
              > > > have on the car is one bolster and you can see where the rest of the
              > > > frame was broken off. Maybe I can pick up a cheap Varney junker
              > gondola
              > > > that can be a frame donor, OR, I can make my own fishbelly frame.
              > :o)
              > > > It would be really cool to build one of these from scratch if I
              > could
              > > > figure out how to make decals. It looks like Varney did a nice job
              > of
              > > > pad printing on these cars.
              > > > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15678 From: cheez_eric Date: 12/23/2010
              Subject: Re: Grant Hobbycraft
              Thanks Jim! I searched again, and now I see the other topic. The forum post referenced in it was actually one I posted XD

              1955-1960 eh? There's one piece of info I was wondering about :)

              I guess I was lucky to grab that lone car which still had its original box. Not only did it have its box, but it also had the original paperwork (floor plan, assembly instructions, truck/coupler assembly sheet). I actually scanned and emailed them to Larry, but I see they're not up on HOseeker yet.

              I was hoping someone might know a little more about them, but I guess they were a relatively small, obscure company. Here's what I know based on the box/paperwork:

              -First off, the car was originally $5.
              -The paperwork has an address: "20 Greenfield Ave. Willowdale, Ontario, Canada"
              -From what I can tell, the body styles they made were baggage, coach, diner, sleeper, dome, observation. I'm not sure if there were more, but those are the ones referenced to in the paperwork.

              Here are scans of the paperwork as well as a picture which shows the original truck/coupler system. The paper is yellowed and oversized, so the scans aren't great, but they'll do...

              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/trucks.jpg

              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/Kits.jpg

              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/Coupler.jpg

              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09021.jpg

              Eric




              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Eric,
              >
              >
              > I will tell you what I know about Grant Hobbycraft and Toys of Canada. First there was discussion on this site about this company. If you read back messages you might find that thread.
              >
              > It is my paper of the floor plans in hoseeker. It is the only paperwork I have. I'm glad to see the original box you have and actually it would be good to send a picture of it to the hoseeker site to be included.
              >
              > I sent pictures to help and now onto what I know. At a train show years ago I purchased 6 cars. They were in a box, not original, with the handwritten words Hobby Craft of Canada on them. The paper work you saw on hoseeker was with them and had the letters CPR ( Canadian Pacific Railroad ? ) hand written and circled at the top right. I am told these passenger car are of Canadian designs.There were no trucks with mine. They are plastic bodies with metal floors that are predrilled to accept a number of detail pieces provided depending on which car you had. Little plastic bags of detail parts were with each car. ( I have tried to show some of these parts ) I don't know how many different types of cars they made. I have four different cars with the other two being doubles. A Baggage, RPO, Coach and I think the last is a Diner( ? ).
              >
              > I think these are the same cars and good to know the name is one word ( Hobbycraft ). As far as the company itself others had submitted information which I mentioned would be in back messages.
              >
              > Jim H
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15679 From: Model RailRoad Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: White Tank Car was Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Will have to hunt that car in the Basement Yard. Memory says it was Diamond Chemocal or Diamond Salt that sent a free decal upon request.

              Merle Rice




              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi John B.,
              >
              > There are actually two Varney varieties as well, same paint scheme and road
              > number on a regular gon woth both closed ends and also on the open end model
              > with overhead frame, and brass railing. I am not at home right now, so can not
              > supply the other Varney catalog number right now.
              >
              > I do not know if OSTUCO had more than the one prototype car, as the OSTUCO
              > decals and both Varney models all used the same car number that you mentioned,
              > "OSTX 1908."  If someone has access to a Railway Equipment Register, they might
              > check to see if there were additional prototypical car numbers - something I
              > always wanted to look up.
              >
              > Back in the fifties and early sixties, at least one other industry made HO scale
              > decals avaiable to modelers as well - a white chemical tank car - the name
              > escapes me right now.  It would certainly be fun to track down models made with
              > the various free prototype decals.
              >
              > W Jay W.
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: John Barlow <jdenver4150@...>
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thu, December 23, 2010 5:38:16 PM
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              >
              >  
              > Jay...
              >
              > Varney made one as "GT-101 Tube Car...Ohio Seamless Tube", originally selling
              > for $1.49.
              > I paid more for mine a few years ago, and I've seen another listed recently on
              > the site from the same place I bought mine. Car number I have is " OSTX 1908",
              > but that number may have appeared on all the cars made.
              >
              > John Barlow (jdenver4150@...)
              >
              > --- On Thu, 12/23/10, Jay <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > >From: Jay <the_plainsman@...>
              > >Subject: [vintageHO] Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              > >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010, 3:14 PM
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > >Hi All,
              > >
              > >Back in 1963 or 1964, Ohio Seamless Tube offered free (and beautiful red and
              > >black) HO scale decals sets (with stripes)for those who wished to model the car,
              > >based on plans and photos in Model Railroader. JW Barnard was a B&O modeler
              > >frequently featured in MR, who also happened to be the PR director of Ohio
              > >Seamless. As a kid, I sent for the decals, which came with a nice, illustrated
              > >letter showing Barnard's model and the prototype, I believe.
              > >
              > >I built a scale length car by butting together parts from two Varney type gons,
              > >sawing out one end, then making new correctly spaced side ribs and the hoist
              > >frame from Plastruct shapes. I made the railings from soldered brass wire. It is
              > >still one of my favorite models, and I have a small string of the varney
              > >editions as well. If I were to build a scale model today, I would use one of the
              > >Walthers 47' USRA type hoppers for a start as that is what I believe the
              > >prototype was based upon.
              > >
              > >What was funny about the article was that the Model Railroader editors "sniffed"
              > >that someone had commercially done the car, but they had never seen it....but it
              > >was shown on a Varney full page rear cover ad in MR less than a year before. I
              > >guess the MR editor never read the complete magazine once it was printed, LOL!
              > >
              > >Now all "we" have to do is locate a set of those completely scale decals and the
              > >letter, and copy them. I may know someone who still has an extra set and will
              > >check, but it will have to be right after the holiday weekend.
              > >
              > >Have a Merry Christams or Happy Holiday Weekend, All!
              > >
              > >W Jay W.
              > >
              > >--- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bitlerisvj@ wrote:
              > >>
              > >> I am in.
              > >> Maybe we can get more folks to order these? How about if I post to the
              > >> Railway_Decal_Express_Agency Yahoo Group to see how many people may be
              > >> interested? If we get 6 people to order, I will go for 3 sets myself.
              > >> Let me know what you think.
              > >> According to the article and photos in the Kalmbach book, "Easy to Build
              > >> Model Railroad Freight Cars", "The prototype cars are lemon yellow on
              > >> sides and ends. Underbody and trucks are red oxide __ Floquil boxcar
              > >> red is about right. Lettering is black. The herald and thin horizontal
              > >> stripe at top and bottom of the car are red." The prototype photo shows
              > >> a stripe at the top and at the bottom, so Varney was accurate there.
              > >> The prototype drawings show a 47' mill gondola with a fish belly
              > >> underframe. The Varney car is a shorty at 42', but I expect that it was
              > >> made for the market of the 1950's and 60's using sharp radius curves.
              > >> By the way, I can send up close photos of the reporting marks, if that
              > >> will make it easier to do the decals. But, to reiterate, all the
              > >> lettering is black. The stripes and logo(including logo lettering) are
              > >> red. One important item on the prototype vs. Varney, is that the logo
              > >> on the prototype stood alone in its own panel. The Varney car has the
              > >> last two letters of the word Division encroaching the logo. We would
              > >> not want that discrepancy.
              > >> Regards, Vic Bitleris
              > >> --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
              > >> >
              > >> > Per the drawing, the stripes are red. Is all the lettering and the
              > >> logo also
              > >> > red? If I know the color, and get three orders, I'll do decals with
              > >> all new,
              > >> > SVG artwork for $10.00 each. IF I get six orders I'll do 'em for
              > >> $7.00.
              > >> >
              > >> > John Hagen
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > -----Original Message-----
              > >> > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
              > >> Behalf
              > >> > Of Mike Sloane
              > >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:17 PM
              > >> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >> > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              > >> >
              > >> > As you can see in the recent messages, I found the article with the
              > >> > OSTUCO car. But it was something that I downloaded from somewhere
              > >> else,
              > >> > not my own magazine. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the images
              > >> that
              > >> > tells which magazine it came from. But the details of the 47' car are
              > >> > nicely done. I imagine that someone could scan the drawing and make
              > >> > their own decals. Judging by the presence of horn/hook couplers on the
              > >> > model, I am guessing that the article goes back to the '60s, not that
              > >> it
              > >> > really matters.
              > >> >
              > >> > Mike
              > >> >
              > >> > On 12/21/2010 12:44 PM, bitlerisvj@ wrote:
              > >> > > Thanks for posting these photos Mike, and also thanks for the
              > >> history
              > >> > > update. I can see that you got the nice original one. The second
              > >> > > version, the one I have, is not even painted the correct lemon
              > >> yellow
              > >> > > color, like yours is. I did get the sprung trucks, but my car was
              > >> not
              > >> > > adequately described on eBay as when I received it, it is missing
              > >> the
              > >> > > complete underframe and brake equipment. The only underframe piece I
              > >> > > have on the car is one bolster and you can see where the rest of the
              > >> > > frame was broken off. Maybe I can pick up a cheap Varney junker
              > >> gondola
              > >> > > that can be a frame donor, OR, I can make my own fishbelly frame.
              > >> :o)
              > >> > > It would be really cool to build one of these from scratch if I
              > >> could
              > >> > > figure out how to make decals. It looks like Varney did a nice job
              > >> of
              > >> > > pad printing on these cars.
              > >> > > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > ------------------------------------
              > >> >
              > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >> >
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15680 From: jim heckard Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Grant Hobbycraft
               Eric,
               
                          Thank you for supplying the information you have on Grant Hobbycraft. I know the paperwork scans helps me a lot. Other then the cars I have and that one piece of paperwork everything else from the original box, the address, trucks and couplers had been unknown to me.   Also thank you for forwarding it to Larry Stevenson / hoseeker. It might take a little while for Larry to get it posted to his site as he has been swamped with lots of information from others. In our " talks " by Email I know he is in the midst of a large home remodeling project which limits his time adding information to his site but knowing Larry he will get to it.
               
                                                                               Jim H
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: cheez_eric
              Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:33 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Grant Hobbycraft

               

              Thanks Jim! I searched again, and now I see the other topic. The forum post referenced in it was actually one I posted XD

              1955-1960 eh? There's one piece of info I was wondering about :)

              I guess I was lucky to grab that lone car which still had its original box. Not only did it have its box, but it also had the original paperwork (floor plan, assembly instructions, truck/coupler assembly sheet). I actually scanned and emailed them to Larry, but I see they're not up on HOseeker yet.

              I was hoping someone might know a little more about them, but I guess they were a relatively small, obscure company. Here's what I know based on the box/paperwork:

              -First off, the car was originally $5.
              -The paperwork has an address: "20 Greenfield Ave. Willowdale, Ontario, Canada"
              -From what I can tell, the body styles they made were baggage, coach, diner, sleeper, dome, observation. I'm not sure if there were more, but those are the ones referenced to in the paperwork.

              Here are scans of the paperwork as well as a picture which shows the original truck/coupler system. The paper is yellowed and oversized, so the scans aren't great, but they'll do...

              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/trucks.jpg

              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/Kits.jpg

              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/Coupler.jpg

              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09021.jpg

              Eric

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "jim heckard" <jimheck@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Eric,
              >
              >
              > I will tell you what I know about Grant Hobbycraft and Toys of Canada. First there was discussion on this site about this company. If you read back messages you might find that thread.
              >
              > It is my paper of the floor plans in hoseeker. It is the only paperwork I have. I'm glad to see the original box you have and actually it would be good to send a picture of it to the hoseeker site to be included.
              >
              > I sent pictures to help and now onto what I know. At a train show years ago I purchased 6 cars. They were in a box, not original, with the handwritten words Hobby Craft of Canada on them. The paper work you saw on hoseeker was with them and had the letters CPR ( Canadian Pacific Railroad ? ) hand written and circled at the top right. I am told these passenger car are of Canadian designs.There were no trucks with mine. They are plastic bodies with metal floors that are predrilled to accept a number of detail pieces provided depending on which car you had. Little plastic bags of detail parts were with each car. ( I have tried to show some of these parts ) I don't know how many different types of cars they made. I have four different cars with the other two being doubles. A Baggage, RPO, Coach and I think the last is a Diner( ? ).
              >
              > I think these are the same cars and good to know the name is one word ( Hobbycraft ). As far as the company itself others had submitted information which I mentioned would be in back messages.
              >
              > Jim H
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15681 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Merry Christmas
              Just want to take a time out to wish a very Merry Christmas to probably the
              best bunch of guys on the Web.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15682 From: Riverboy Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Hi Group,
              With all this talk of the Ohio Seamless Tube car, I thought  I'd look on eBay as sort of a joke. No car available right now, but there is what appears to be a box for one if someone needs one. The words "Ohio Seamless" are hand written, so I'm not sure if it is actually an official original box or not. It is item #350367941551 for those who want to look.
              Tod


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15683 From: gary pardue Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Merry Christmas
              Don,
              Many Thanks for your toughtfullness. Merry Christmas to you and I hope Santa brings you a new train set! Merry Christmas to all!!
               
              Gary Pardue
              From the snowy Mtns. of Virginia

              --- On Fri, 12/24/10, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Merry Christmas
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, December 24, 2010, 9:38 AM

               
              Just want to take a time out to wish a very Merry Christmas to probably the
              best bunch of guys on the Web.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15684 From: Donald R. Staton Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Merry Christmas
              Merry Christmas everyone...
              Be even greater blessed...
              a displaced Virginia Mountain Man
              in the coastal flat lands of Va.
              Happy railroading...
              Chaplain Don Staton

              ======================================================

              On 12/24/2010 11:01 AM, gary pardue wrote:
               

              Don,
              Many Thanks for your toughtfullness. Merry Christmas to you and I hope Santa brings you a new train set! Merry Christmas to all!!
               
              Gary Pardue
              From the snowy Mtns. of Virginia


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15685 From: Chuck Higdon Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Grant Hobbycraft

              Hello Eric and all,

               

              That is a nice photo of the car.  The more I have looked at it the more I thought the ends looked like the ends of the Mantua Alumimun cars they do/did.  So I pulled two from a box and they are not exactly the same.  The Hobbycraft ends extend below the floor line of the end along each side.  Otherwise they look the same.  The bodies also have some similarities, but differences.  The top belt line on the Hobbycraft is not on the Mantua .  The Mantua has full skirting and flutes in that area.  The floor is totally different.  The length also is different.  I just wondered if there was some sharing between the two companies.

               

              Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

               

              Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at http://community.webshots.com/user/lordon104

               


              From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of cheez_eric
              Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:27 PM
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [vintageHO] Grant Hobbycraft

               

               

              Hey everyone. I was told that if anyone could give me info on some vintage trains, it would be you guys. :D I have a number of metal streamliners made by a Canadian company called "Grant Hobbycraft and Toys Limited". Other than a floor diagram on HOseeker, there doesn't seem to be a single thing on the net about them. Does anyone here know anything about the company?

              Here are a few pics:

              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09019.jpg
              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09020.jpg
              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09012.jpg

              -Eric

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15686 From: jim heckard Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Package delivered
               
               
               
              Sean,
               
                          A nice Christmas package arrived  this afternoon, not delivered by Santa, but the U S Postal Service. I want to thank you for the items that we had discussed and were to be sent but also the special present.
               
                  I was happy to get the plastic Varney tender ( the larger type that was only produced and sold with one engine) , the Cambron PA cast brass body and the set of brass trucks which I hope to use on my Conover 2-10-2 project.
               
                  But it is the special added engine that has made my day. A Mantua / American Flyer  FY&P  4-4-0 with decals to refurbish it. I can't thank you enough.
               
                 We have had a lot of dealings and not only with trains and I have always valued our friendship including having you and your lovely family visit. Please excuse me for making this kind of public but I want you to know how much I appreciate it and I want others to know how lucky the group is to have you as a member.
               
               
                                                                       Merry Christmas& Happy HEALTHY New Year,
                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                  
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15687 From: John H Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Merry Christmas to all!!

              The box insert is cutout to clear the arch on one end of the OSTUCO car so I would say it is for one of these cars.

              And I agree with Don that this is one of the best, if not the best, groups on the web.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Group,
              > With all this talk of the Ohio Seamless Tube car, I thought  I'd look on eBay as sort of a joke. No car available right now, but there is what appears to be a box for one if someone needs one. The words "Ohio Seamless" are hand written, so I'm not sure if it is actually an official original box or not. It is item #350367941551 for those who want to look.
              > Tod
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15688 From: John H Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Well, old decals available or not, I will be producing a new set. This seems is to be an interesting car that can be made from several models available, past and present. It's an easy kitbash for those who maybe never did such work and neat enough to get the more experienced models going.

              I wouldn't mind seeing a scan of an original set, or high def. photos of one of the Varney cars, just for information on the set. I can do them from the article but something I've found out in the decal biz is the more data the better.

              However, using a scan of an old set for the actual artwork leads with rather poor decals. I agree that reasonable sets can be made but they won't stand up to close inspection, the kind that one expects when showing off their latest, or first, bashing project. Most early decals are, frankly, not all that sharp (I'm referring to the clearness of actual images here) and then scanning and working with bitmaps serves to multiply any such discrepancies.

              Old sets and/or photos serve as a guide over which new, clean, vector images are drawn. Once that is accomplished, new, sharp and clearly defined decals can be printed in any scale, as scalable vector graphics (SVG) and be scaled up or down with no loss of definition. I have a local O scaler that I do decals for and I will be trying to get to build one of these cars so I will also do the in O scale.

              I'm sure you all know modelers in other scales so if any of them are interested in these have them contact me. One of the advantages of Alps printers, besides form being sharper than screen printing, is that a very short run can be done economically.

              By the way, does anyone have a number range for these cars. I'd like to include more preprinted numbers.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi John B.,
              >
              > There are actually two Varney varieties as well, same paint scheme and road
              > number on a regular gon woth both closed ends and also on the open end model
              > with overhead frame, and brass railing. I am not at home right now, so can not
              > supply the other Varney catalog number right now.
              >
              > I do not know if OSTUCO had more than the one prototype car, as the OSTUCO
              > decals and both Varney models all used the same car number that you mentioned,
              > "OSTX 1908."  If someone has access to a Railway Equipment Register, they might
              > check to see if there were additional prototypical car numbers - something I
              > always wanted to look up.
              >
              > Back in the fifties and early sixties, at least one other industry made HO scale
              > decals avaiable to modelers as well - a white chemical tank car - the name
              > escapes me right now.  It would certainly be fun to track down models made with
              > the various free prototype decals.
              >
              > W Jay W.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15689 From: gary pardue Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Merry Christmas
              Brother Don,
              Your name sounds so familiar to me. Where in the Mtns. are you from. I am in Bluefield, VA  Merry Christmas!!!
               
              Gary Pardue

              --- On Fri, 12/24/10, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote:

              From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Merry Christmas
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, December 24, 2010, 11:19 AM

               
              Merry Christmas everyone...
              Be even greater blessed...
              a displaced Virginia Mountain Man
              in the coastal flat lands of Va.
              Happy railroading...
              Chaplain Don Staton

              ======================================================

              On 12/24/2010 11:01 AM, gary pardue wrote:
               
              Don,
              Many Thanks for your toughtfullness. Merry Christmas to you and I hope Santa brings you a new train set! Merry Christmas to all!!
               
              Gary Pardue
              From the snowy Mtns. of Virginia



              Group: vintageHO Message: 15690 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Merry Christmas
              for this group, I think we'd all prefer Santa to bring us an shiny old train set!  8^)       gj

              Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 8:01 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Merry Christmas

              Don,
              Many Thanks for your toughtfullness. Merry Christmas to you and I hope Santa brings you a new train set! Merry Christmas to all!!
               
              Gary Pardue
              From the snowy Mtns. of Virginia

              --- On Fri, 12/24/10, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote:

              From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Merry Christmas
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, December 24, 2010, 9:38 AM

               
              Just want to take a time out to wish a very Merry Christmas to probably the
              best bunch of guys on the Web.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15691 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              I'll send you some photos off list of my car. If you'd have come over to
              our layout at Trainfest you could have held it in your hand :-)

              Don


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John H" <sprinthag@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 12:33 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car


              Well, old decals available or not, I will be producing a new set. This seems
              is to be an interesting car that can be made from several models available,
              past and present. It's an easy kitbash for those who maybe never did such
              work and neat enough to get the more experienced models going.

              I wouldn't mind seeing a scan of an original set, or high def. photos of one
              of the Varney cars, just for information on the set. I can do them from the
              article but something I've found out in the decal biz is the more data the
              better.

              However, using a scan of an old set for the actual artwork leads with rather
              poor decals. I agree that reasonable sets can be made but they won't stand
              up to close inspection, the kind that one expects when showing off their
              latest, or first, bashing project. Most early decals are, frankly, not all
              that sharp (I'm referring to the clearness of actual images here) and then
              scanning and working with bitmaps serves to multiply any such discrepancies.

              Old sets and/or photos serve as a guide over which new, clean, vector images
              are drawn. Once that is accomplished, new, sharp and clearly defined decals
              can be printed in any scale, as scalable vector graphics (SVG) and be scaled
              up or down with no loss of definition. I have a local O scaler that I do
              decals for and I will be trying to get to build one of these cars so I will
              also do the in O scale.

              I'm sure you all know modelers in other scales so if any of them are
              interested in these have them contact me. One of the advantages of Alps
              printers, besides form being sharper than screen printing, is that a very
              short run can be done economically.

              By the way, does anyone have a number range for these cars. I'd like to
              include more preprinted numbers.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi John B.,
              >
              > There are actually two Varney varieties as well, same paint scheme and
              > road
              > number on a regular gon woth both closed ends and also on the open end
              > model
              > with overhead frame, and brass railing. I am not at home right now, so can
              > not
              > supply the other Varney catalog number right now.
              >
              > I do not know if OSTUCO had more than the one prototype car, as the OSTUCO
              > decals and both Varney models all used the same car number that you
              > mentioned,
              > "OSTX 1908."Â If someone has access to a Railway Equipment Register, they
              > might
              > check to see if there were additional prototypical car numbers - something
              > I
              > always wanted to look up.
              >
              > Back in the fifties and early sixties, at least one other industry made HO
              > scale
              > decals avaiable to modelers as well - a white chemical tank car - the name
              > escapes me right now. It would certainly be fun to track down models made
              > with
              > the various free prototype decals.
              >
              > W Jay W.




              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15692 From: Sean Naylor Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Package delivered
              You are very welcome indeed Jim!

              I want to see pictures of the restored engine. Heck! Lets have some progress photos too!
               
              I sent you a tender I had w/o the decals and I made you a pair of color scanned duplicate copies of the decal I had and cut them to size.
               
              You will have to clean the frame up that I sent and spray it with a translucent black paint to match the Mantua blackened diecast metal (unless you can find one wtith that blackened frame) and then repaint the cow catcher red. The pilot truck had a broken wheel, so I pulled off another wheel from another bad pilot I had and threw it in too.
               
              Now you have yourself a nice little Cristmas project to take your mind off things!
               
              I am sorry I did not just send you the complete engine I have instead and just keep the project one, but lately I have no time for more projects and thought you might enjoy that more.
               
              Enjoy!
               
              Merry Christmas & Happy Hanukkah everyone! (& anything else anyone else celebrates)!
               
              Sean 
               

               


              From: jim heckard <jimheck@...>
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 1:02:26 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Package delivered

               

               
               
               
              Sean,
               
                          A nice Christmas package arrived  this afternoon, not delivered by Santa, but the U S Postal Service. I want to thank you for the items that we had discussed and were to be sent but also the special present.
               
                  I was happy to get the plastic Varney tender ( the larger type that was only produced and sold with one engine) , the Cambron PA cast brass body and the set of brass trucks which I hope to use on my Conover 2-10-2 project.
               
                  But it is the special added engine that has made my day. A Mantua / American Flyer  FY&P  4-4-0 with decals to refurbish it. I can't thank you enough.
               
                 We have had a lot of dealings and not only with trains and I have always valued our friendship including having you and your lovely family visit. Please excuse me for making this kind of public but I want you to know how much I appreciate it and I want others to know how lucky the group is to have you as a member.
               
               
                                                                       Merry Christmas& Happy HEALTHY New Year,
                                                                                     Jim H
                                                                  

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15693 From: John H Date: 12/24/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Merry Christmas to you Don.

              And thanks for hosting this group.

              I had hoped to get there but wasn't healthy. Had some bug that weakened me enough that hauling my bulk around Trainfest was pretty limited. I saw very little of the show this year that wasn't directly between our booth and the mens room.

              Look forward to the photos.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'll send you some photos off list of my car. If you'd have come over to
              > our layout at Trainfest you could have held it in your hand :-)
              >
              > Don
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "John H" <sprinthag@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 12:33 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              >
              >
              > Well, old decals available or not, I will be producing a new set. This seems
              > is to be an interesting car that can be made from several models available,
              > past and present. It's an easy kitbash for those who maybe never did such
              > work and neat enough to get the more experienced models going.
              >
              > I wouldn't mind seeing a scan of an original set, or high def. photos of one
              > of the Varney cars, just for information on the set. I can do them from the
              > article but something I've found out in the decal biz is the more data the
              > better.
              >
              > However, using a scan of an old set for the actual artwork leads with rather
              > poor decals. I agree that reasonable sets can be made but they won't stand
              > up to close inspection, the kind that one expects when showing off their
              > latest, or first, bashing project. Most early decals are, frankly, not all
              > that sharp (I'm referring to the clearness of actual images here) and then
              > scanning and working with bitmaps serves to multiply any such discrepancies.
              >
              > Old sets and/or photos serve as a guide over which new, clean, vector images
              > are drawn. Once that is accomplished, new, sharp and clearly defined decals
              > can be printed in any scale, as scalable vector graphics (SVG) and be scaled
              > up or down with no loss of definition. I have a local O scaler that I do
              > decals for and I will be trying to get to build one of these cars so I will
              > also do the in O scale.
              >
              > I'm sure you all know modelers in other scales so if any of them are
              > interested in these have them contact me. One of the advantages of Alps
              > printers, besides form being sharper than screen printing, is that a very
              > short run can be done economically.
              >
              > By the way, does anyone have a number range for these cars. I'd like to
              > include more preprinted numbers.
              >
              > John Hagen
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15694 From: Riverboy Date: 12/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Hi Group,
               
              Could someone post the plans for this car, unless it falls under a copyright restriction. I would love to build the correct car.
               
              Tod

               


              --- On Thu, 12/23/10, Jay <the_plainsman@...> wrote:

              From: Jay <the_plainsman@...>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010, 5:14 PM

               
              Hi All,

              Back in 1963 or 1964, Ohio Seamless Tube offered free (and beautiful red and black) HO scale decals sets (with stripes)for those who wished to model the car, based on plans and photos in Model Railroader. JW Barnard was a B&O modeler frequently featured in MR, who also happened to be the PR director of Ohio Seamless. As a kid, I sent for the decals, which came with a nice, illustrated letter showing Barnard's model and the prototype, I believe.

              I built a scale length car by butting together parts from two Varney type gons, sawing out one end, then making new correctly spaced side ribs and the hoist frame from Plastruct shapes. I made the railings from soldered brass wire. It is still one of my favorite models, and I have a small string of the varney editions as well. If I were to build a scale model today, I would use one of the Walthers 47' USRA type hoppers for a start as that is what I believe the prototype was based upon.

              What was funny about the article was that the Model Railroader editors "sniffed" that someone had commercially done the car, but they had never seen it....but it was shown on a Varney full page rear cover ad in MR less than a year before. I guess the MR editor never read the complete magazine once it was printed, LOL!

              Now all "we" have to do is locate a set of those completely scale decals and the letter, and copy them. I may know someone who still has an extra set and will check, but it will have to be right after the holiday weekend.

              Have a Merry Christams or Happy Holiday Weekend, All!

              W Jay W.

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, bitlerisvj@... wrote:
              >
              > I am in.
              > Maybe we can get more folks to order these? How about if I post to the
              > Railway_Decal_Express_Agency Yahoo Group to see how many people may be
              > interested? If we get 6 people to order, I will go for 3 sets myself.
              > Let me know what you think.
              > According to the article and photos in the Kalmbach book, "Easy to Build
              > Model Railroad Freight Cars", "The prototype cars are lemon yellow on
              > sides and ends. Underbody and trucks are red oxide __ Floquil boxcar
              > red is about right. Lettering is black. The herald and thin horizontal
              > stripe at top and bottom of the car are red." The prototype photo shows
              > a stripe at the top and at the bottom, so Varney was accurate there.
              > The prototype drawings show a 47' mill gondola with a fish belly
              > underframe. The Varney car is a shorty at 42', but I expect that it was
              > made for the market of the 1950's and 60's using sharp radius curves.
              > By the way, I can send up close photos of the reporting marks, if that
              > will make it easier to do the decals. But, to reiterate, all the
              > lettering is black. The stripes and logo(including logo lettering) are
              > red. One important item on the prototype vs. Varney, is that the logo
              > on the prototype stood alone in its own panel. The Varney car has the
              > last two letters of the word Division encroaching the logo. We would
              > not want that discrepancy.
              > Regards, Vic Bitleris
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Per the drawing, the stripes are red. Is all the lettering and the
              > logo also
              > > red? If I know the color, and get three orders, I'll do decals with
              > all new,
              > > SVG artwork for $10.00 each. IF I get six orders I'll do 'em for
              > $7.00.
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf
              > > Of Mike Sloane
              > > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:17 PM
              > > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Ohio Seamless Tube car
              > >
              > > As you can see in the recent messages, I found the article with the
              > > OSTUCO car. But it was something that I downloaded from somewhere
              > else,
              > > not my own magazine. Unfortunately, there is nothing on the images
              > that
              > > tells which magazine it came from. But the details of the 47' car are
              > > nicely done. I imagine that someone could scan the drawing and make
              > > their own decals. Judging by the presence of horn/hook couplers on the
              > > model, I am guessing that the article goes back to the '60s, not that
              > it
              > > really matters.
              > >
              > > Mike
              > >
              > > On 12/21/2010 12:44 PM, bitlerisvj@ wrote:
              > > > Thanks for posting these photos Mike, and also thanks for the
              > history
              > > > update. I can see that you got the nice original one. The second
              > > > version, the one I have, is not even painted the correct lemon
              > yellow
              > > > color, like yours is. I did get the sprung trucks, but my car was
              > not
              > > > adequately described on eBay as when I received it, it is missing
              > the
              > > > complete underframe and brake equipment. The only underframe piece I
              > > > have on the car is one bolster and you can see where the rest of the
              > > > frame was broken off. Maybe I can pick up a cheap Varney junker
              > gondola
              > > > that can be a frame donor, OR, I can make my own fishbelly frame.
              > :o)
              > > > It would be really cool to build one of these from scratch if I
              > could
              > > > figure out how to make decals. It looks like Varney did a nice job
              > of
              > > > pad printing on these cars.
              > > > Thanks and regards, Vic Bitleris
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >

              Group: vintageHO Message: 15695 From: John H Date: 12/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Tod,

              Mike Sloane was kind enough to post the article in the files section. Look for ostuco1.jpg and ostuco2.jpg.

              PING to Don Dellman. Please give me a length and height measurement (in real world scale, not 1:87) for a side elevation view. What I will be doing is two for one in HO sets. One scaled to the Walthers 46" gon and the other for the Varney car. With the dimensions I can scale the photo to real world size and make certain the decals will fit the Varney car. No problem with the Walthers car as I'll be getting one myself.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Group,
              >
              > Could someone post the plans for this car, unless it falls under a copyright restriction. I would love to build the correct car.
              >
              > Tod
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15696 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 12/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Hi John, so far there are 3 people (including me) that want the decals.  Two would like one set, and I would like 2 sets.  I am hoping some others will respond this coming week.
              Thanks and regards,
              Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC




              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: sprinthag@...
              Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 18:33:00 +0000
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car

               
              Well, old decals available or not, I will be producing a new set. This seems is to be an interesting car that can be made from several models available, past and present. It's an easy kitbash for those who maybe never did such work and neat enough to get the more experienced models going.

              I wouldn't mind seeing a scan of an original set, or high def. photos of one of the Varney cars, just for information on the set. I can do them from the article but something I've found out in the decal biz is the more data the better.

              However, using a scan of an old set for the actual artwork leads with rather poor decals. I agree that reasonable sets can be made but they won't stand up to close inspection, the kind that one expects when showing off their latest, or first, bashing project. Most early decals are, frankly, not all that sharp (I'm referring to the clearness of actual images here) and then scanning and working with bitmaps serves to multiply any such discrepancies.

              Old sets and/or photos serve as a guide over which new, clean, vector images are drawn. Once that is accomplished, new, sharp and clearly defined decals can be printed in any scale, as scalable vector graphics (SVG) and be scaled up or down with no loss of definition. I have a local O scaler that I do decals for and I will be trying to get to build one of these cars so I will also do the in O scale.

              I'm sure you all know modelers in other scales so if any of them are interested in these have them contact me. One of the advantages of Alps printers, besides form being sharper than screen printing, is that a very short run can be done economically.

              By the way, does anyone have a number range for these cars. I'd like to include more preprinted numbers.

              John Hagen

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi John B.,
              >
              > There are actually two Varney varieties as well, same paint scheme and road
              > number on a regular gon woth both closed ends and also on the open end model
              > with overhead frame, and brass railing. I am not at home right now, so can not
              > supply the other Varney catalog number right now.
              >
              > I do not know if OSTUCO had more than the one prototype car, as the OSTUCO
              > decals and both Varney models all used the same car number that you mentioned,
              > "OSTX 1908."  If someone has access to a Railway Equipment Register, they might
              > check to see if there were additional prototypical car numbers - something I
              > always wanted to look up.
              >
              > Back in the fifties and early sixties, at least one other industry made HO scale
              > decals avaiable to modelers as well - a white chemical tank car - the name
              > escapes me right now.  It would certainly be fun to track down models made with
              > the various free prototype decals.
              >
              > W Jay W.


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15697 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/25/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              I should have all that for you tomorrow. I am sending the pictures off list
              so they don't get compressed, I'll post them to the list in a photo album
              separately.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John H" <sprinthag@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2010 9:02 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car


              > Tod,
              >
              > Mike Sloane was kind enough to post the article in the files section. Look
              > for ostuco1.jpg and ostuco2.jpg.
              >
              > PING to Don Dellman. Please give me a length and height measurement (in
              > real world scale, not 1:87) for a side elevation view. What I will be
              > doing is two for one in HO sets. One scaled to the Walthers 46" gon and
              > the other for the Varney car. With the dimensions I can scale the photo to
              > real world size and make certain the decals will fit the Varney car. No
              > problem with the Walthers car as I'll be getting one myself.
              >
              > John Hagen
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Riverboy <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Hi Group,
              >>
              >> Could someone post the plans for this car, unless it falls under a
              >> copyright restriction. I would love to build the correct car.
              >>
              >> Tod
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15698 From: nvrr49 Date: 12/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              I have responded direct to John that I wanted two sets.

              Kent in KC
              nvrr49.blogspot.com

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi John, so far there are 3 people (including me) that want the decals. Two would like one set, and I would like 2 sets. I am hoping some others will respond this coming week.
              > Thanks and regards,
              > Vic Bitleris
              > Raleigh, NC
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15699 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              I hope these are useable. If you need better pics maybe I can bring the car
              over one evening.

              The overall length of the car sides is 5 5/8", the height is 11/16"

              Distance between the inside edge of the ribs is .614", from the underside of
              the top chord to the top of the bottom double row of rivets is .516"

              The script letter "O" in ohio is .179" high, the lower case script is .097"
              The small "Shelbyville Ohio" script is .075" for the caps, .047" for the
              lower case. The roman caps are ,088". The reporting marks are .084",
              dimensional data .039". The red stripes are .033" wide.

              The dimensional data reads:

              CAPY 140000
              LD. LMT. 150500
              LT. WT. 55600

              IL 40-0 FT
              IW 9-7 FT
              CU.FT. 1740

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15700 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 12/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car [2 Attachments]
              These measurements are correct for the Varney car, but they are a bit off for the prototype drawings.  Does John need these measurements for the prototype drawings?
              Regards,
              Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC




              To: sprinthag@...
              CC: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: don.dellmann@...
              Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 19:49:26 -0600
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car [2 Attachments]

               
              [Attachment(s) from Don Dellmann included below] I hope these are useable. If you need better pics maybe I can bring the car
              over one evening.

              The overall length of the car sides is 5 5/8", the height is 11/16"

              Distance between the inside edge of the ribs is .614", from the underside of
              the top chord to the top of the bottom double row of rivets is .516"

              The script letter "O" in ohio is .179" high, the lower case script is .097"
              The small "Shelbyville Ohio" script is .075" for the caps, .047" for the
              lower case. The roman caps are ,088". The reporting marks are .084",
              dimensional data .039". The red stripes are .033" wide.

              The dimensional data reads:

              CAPY 140000
              LD. LMT. 150500
              LT. WT. 55600

              IL 40-0 FT
              IW 9-7 FT
              CU.FT. 1740

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15702 From: John H Date: 12/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              Don and Vic,

              Takes Don for the photos and data. Very helpful.

              Vic, I have the dimensions from the article. I think that will be sufficient.

              Thing is these cars were apparently not all the same. The article states they used 40' & 50' cars. However, since the car he measured was 47', I'm feeling it should read 40 to 50 ft cars.

              So far as HO decals go, IMHO, there would be two main uses for them. One would be to duplicate the Varney car and the other to duplicate the car in the article. Someone, I think Mike Sloane or Vic, mentioned using the Walthers car. From what I can see of the car in their website, it looks to be a near ringer. So if I include decals sufficient to do either in one set I believe just about any HO gon within the 40 to 50 ft range should be doable with the set.

              I have the "O hio" script done. Had the "Sea" done also but the dang program froze just before I saved it. Ah well. Script takes time, you can't just type it out, adjust the kerning, height, etc., and convert it to outlines like can be done with, say, Railroad Roman font. Sometimes a script font that is relatively close can be found but usually I start with a line and bend it like a noodle. Then adjust the lines width and whatever else to make it match the prototype. It is a challenge I enjoy doing and gives much self-satisfaction when done.

              John Hagen


              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > These measurements are correct for the Varney car, but they are a bit off for the prototype drawings. Does John need these measurements for the prototype drawings?
              > Regards,
              > Vic Bitleris
              > Raleigh, NC
              >
              >
              >
              > To: sprinthag@...
              > CC: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > From: don.dellmann@...
              > Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 19:49:26 -0600
              > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car [2 Attachments]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Attachment(s) from Don Dellmann included below]
              >
              >
              > I hope these are useable. If you need better pics maybe I can bring the car
              >
              > over one evening.
              >
              >
              >
              > The overall length of the car sides is 5 5/8", the height is 11/16"
              >
              >
              >
              > Distance between the inside edge of the ribs is .614", from the underside of
              >
              > the top chord to the top of the bottom double row of rivets is .516"
              >
              >
              >
              > The script letter "O" in ohio is .179" high, the lower case script is .097"
              >
              > The small "Shelbyville Ohio" script is .075" for the caps, .047" for the
              >
              > lower case. The roman caps are ,088". The reporting marks are .084",
              >
              > dimensional data .039". The red stripes are .033" wide.
              >
              >
              >
              > The dimensional data reads:
              >
              >
              >
              > CAPY 140000
              >
              > LD. LMT. 150500
              >
              > LT. WT. 55600
              >
              >
              >
              > IL 40-0 FT
              >
              > IW 9-7 FT
              >
              > CU.FT. 1740
              >
              >
              >
              > Don
              >
              >
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              >
              > don.dellmann@...
              >
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              >
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              >
              > Owner
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15703 From: Duane Porter Date: 12/26/2010
              Subject: Re: Grant Hobbycraft
              Eric and all

              From what I was told about Grant Hobbycraft by a modeler friend of mine in the Toronto area who has since passed away, they only ever did one production run of passenger cars. There are two different styles that were made and both are specifically replicating Canadian prototypes. The first one is the one that we saw in your pictures that is replicating the style of Budd cars that the CPR purchased in the 1950's. These cars are still being used by VIA Rail today. The second style that was produced was smooth sided and were painted in the CNR green, black, and gold pin striping.

              Duane Porter




              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "cheez_eric" <cheez_eric@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey everyone. I was told that if anyone could give me info on some vintage trains, it would be you guys. :D I have a number of metal streamliners made by a Canadian company called "Grant Hobbycraft and Toys Limited". Other than a floor diagram on HOseeker, there doesn't seem to be a single thing on the net about them. Does anyone here know anything about the company?
              >
              > Here are a few pics:
              >
              > http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09019.jpg
              > http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09020.jpg
              > http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09012.jpg
              >
              > -Eric
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15704 From: RalphB Date: 12/27/2010
              Subject: Dean Freytag - a legend passes
              Thought this would be of interest to all modelers.

              Ralph B
              -----------------------
              --- In Baltimore_and_Ohio@yahoogroups.com, Mark Morgan wrote:

              Here are two news items --- 1. The info about Dean Freytag's services and 2.
              A very fitting eulogy by RR Friend Bill Linson for Dean.

              1. Calling hours will be in Ashland at Heyl Funeral Home on Thursday (Dec. 30th.) from 6:00 to 8:00 PM. Funeral services will be at 11:00 Friday (Dec. 31st.) at the funeral home with calling one hour prior.
              2. Scroll down the page below the list of names for Bill Linson's eulogy for Dean. Thank you, Bill --- your words are a very nice honor for our friend Dean
              -------------------------------
              Flags are flying at half staff today over model railroads throughout Ohio and beyond, mourning the passing of model railroad legend Dean Freytag.

              Freytag, 86, passed away Christmas night at the assisted living facility in Ashland, OH, where he had resided for the past 11 months. He leaves a sister Carol, a brother-in-law Jim, and a niece and nephew. He was preceded in death by wife Ann Elizabeth (Davies) in 1999.

              Dean had four loves in his life. In no particular order, they were Ann, railroading, steel mills, and Ashland University. It is to the latter he left most of his estate, being honored with the grandstands in their new football stadium being named in his and Ann's honor. He was a lifetime member of the National Model Railroad Association, a Master Model Railroader, and the contest director for that organization for a number of years. Interestingly, he never
              attended Ashland University, never worked on a railroad, refused to ride on the trains calling them rough-riding and dusty, and never ever worked in a steel mill.

              But he probably knew more about the steel-making processes than many who did work in the industry. He was a prolific modeler of all things about railroading, but especially steel mills. Indeed, it was steel that dominated the 13' x 38' main room of his HO model railroad. His models of the various components of the steel mills that dominated the landscape in what he called the "Ruhr Valley of the United States" -- that section of the country between Cleveland and
              Pittsburgh -- are the prototypes for the the Walthers series of steel-making structures used by modelers throughout the world.

              Freytag was an author of at least two books used extensively in modeling, "The Cyclopedia of Industrial Modeling" and "The History, Making & Modeling of Steel", and his "how-to" articles appeared in the modeling press frequently over the past 50 years. He was published in Model Railroader, the leading model railroading magazine, more than 50 times. His manuscripts were "banged out" --
              literally -- in all caps on a manual typewriter, as were his letters, notes and even post cards.

              Dean was a proponent of working with styrene -- he was featured in an
              instructional video about styrene -- and Plastruct shapes, and virtually everything he built was from scratch and/or kit bashed. He seldom, if ever, felt the structural "iron work" of bridge and industry models were "heavy" enough and nearly always "beefed them up" with his beloved Plastruct components. His modeling transcended craftsmanship into art. His discerning eye saw a steel mill
              ladle in the discarded cap from a whiskey bottle, the conveyor belt rollers in the used throw-away razor blade guards, and literally dozens of other such applications. Not always the most patient of teachers, he nevertheless was a mentor to dozens -- maybe even hundreds -- of modelers, and to listen to and learn from Dean was to learn from a master.

              Not to think he was one or two dimensional, Dean was a avid reader of war novels -- particularly World War II in which he served -- and deeply interested in Civil War history, having visited the battlefields on numerous occasions. He wore out two exercycles, putting thousands of miles on each of them as he watched the Cleveland Browns and Cleveland Cavaliers. He always had cats that
              were given railroad names, i.e., "Smokey", "Cinders",and Chessie".

              He spent a lot of time on the telephone with modeling friends all over the country discussing a myriad of topics, but usually related to railroading. It was Dean Freytag who put train watching into perspective when he once said to someone questioning the time spent, "I'm with friends who share interests, we're sitting outside in lovely weather and when there aren't trains going by we
              discuss the world, the economy, football, and all sorts of things."

              The lights are dimmed on Dean Freytag's South Ridge Lines, and fires are out at his Davies Steel complex. Model railroading has lost an icon, and I have lost a friend.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15705 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              BTW. what with all the going around about dimensions and such, I forgot to
              mention, if you do get them done put me down for 2 sets.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John H" <sprinthag@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 10:19 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car


              > Don and Vic,
              >
              > Takes Don for the photos and data. Very helpful.
              >
              > Vic, I have the dimensions from the article. I think that will be
              > sufficient.
              >
              > Thing is these cars were apparently not all the same. The article states
              > they used 40' & 50' cars. However, since the car he measured was 47', I'm
              > feeling it should read 40 to 50 ft cars.
              >
              > So far as HO decals go, IMHO, there would be two main uses for them. One
              > would be to duplicate the Varney car and the other to duplicate the car in
              > the article. Someone, I think Mike Sloane or Vic, mentioned using the
              > Walthers car. From what I can see of the car in their website, it looks to
              > be a near ringer. So if I include decals sufficient to do either in one
              > set I believe just about any HO gon within the 40 to 50 ft range should
              > be doable with the set.
              >
              > I have the "O hio" script done. Had the "Sea" done also but the dang
              > program froze just before I saved it. Ah well. Script takes time, you
              > can't just type it out, adjust the kerning, height, etc., and convert it
              > to outlines like can be done with, say, Railroad Roman font. Sometimes a
              > script font that is relatively close can be found but usually I start with
              > a line and bend it like a noodle. Then adjust the lines width and whatever
              > else to make it match the prototype. It is a challenge I enjoy doing and
              > gives much self-satisfaction when done.
              >
              > John Hagen
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15706 From: internagy Date: 12/27/2010
              Subject: Kemtron detail parts
              In the 60's and early 70's Kemtron produced brass handrail stanchions for Athearn diesels. I would like to locate stanchions for the GP35 and GP7 (Athearn GP9) diesels. They also produced soft metal diesel awnings. I would like to find two pair of these. If anyone could help me, I would greatly appriciate it.
              Frank
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15707 From: John H Date: 12/27/2010
              Subject: Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              10-4 Don.

              John

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:
              >
              > BTW. what with all the going around about dimensions and such, I forgot to
              > mention, if you do get them done put me down for 2 sets.
              >
              > Don
              >
              > Don Dellmann
              > don.dellmann@...
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              > http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              > Owner
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "John H" <sprinthag@...>
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2010 10:19 PM
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Decals Exist for Ohio Seamless Tube car
              >
              >
              > > Don and Vic,
              > >
              > > Takes Don for the photos and data. Very helpful.
              > >
              > > Vic, I have the dimensions from the article. I think that will be
              > > sufficient.
              > >
              > > Thing is these cars were apparently not all the same. The article states
              > > they used 40' & 50' cars. However, since the car he measured was 47', I'm
              > > feeling it should read 40 to 50 ft cars.
              > >
              > > So far as HO decals go, IMHO, there would be two main uses for them. One
              > > would be to duplicate the Varney car and the other to duplicate the car in
              > > the article. Someone, I think Mike Sloane or Vic, mentioned using the
              > > Walthers car. From what I can see of the car in their website, it looks to
              > > be a near ringer. So if I include decals sufficient to do either in one
              > > set I believe just about any HO gon within the 40 to 50 ft range should
              > > be doable with the set.
              > >
              > > I have the "O hio" script done. Had the "Sea" done also but the dang
              > > program froze just before I saved it. Ah well. Script takes time, you
              > > can't just type it out, adjust the kerning, height, etc., and convert it
              > > to outlines like can be done with, say, Railroad Roman font. Sometimes a
              > > script font that is relatively close can be found but usually I start with
              > > a line and bend it like a noodle. Then adjust the lines width and whatever
              > > else to make it match the prototype. It is a challenge I enjoy doing and
              > > gives much self-satisfaction when done.
              > >
              > > John Hagen
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15708 From: Dale Smith Date: 12/27/2010
              Subject: S. Soho & Co.
              The widow of a friend recently asked me to try and sell some Los Angeles
              Railway brass models made by this company, along with several Suydam
              Pacific Electric cars. Before I do this, I would like to learn some
              more about this company. So far I have seen very little available.
              Though there is a Soho section on hoseeker.com, most of what is there is
              about interurbans in general, except a 6 page flier, which at several
              points drifts off to other manufacturers. Anyone know a little more
              about this company?

              Dale Smith
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15709 From: cheez_eric Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Grant Hobbycraft
              If that's the case, I'm surprised the line was never picked up by another company. Any idea if the CN cars came pre-painted? The CP cars I've seen came unpainted with the decals in the box for the owner to install. I'd imagine the CN versions would be similar. I'll have to keep an eye out for more of these.

              Thanks!
              Eric

              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "Duane Porter" <duaneporter@...> wrote:
              >
              > Eric and all
              >
              > From what I was told about Grant Hobbycraft by a modeler friend of mine in the Toronto area who has since passed away, they only ever did one production run of passenger cars. There are two different styles that were made and both are specifically replicating Canadian prototypes. The first one is the one that we saw in your pictures that is replicating the style of Budd cars that the CPR purchased in the 1950's. These cars are still being used by VIA Rail today. The second style that was produced was smooth sided and were painted in the CNR green, black, and gold pin striping.
              >
              > Duane Porter
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, "cheez_eric" <cheez_eric@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hey everyone. I was told that if anyone could give me info on some vintage trains, it would be you guys. :D I have a number of metal streamliners made by a Canadian company called "Grant Hobbycraft and Toys Limited". Other than a floor diagram on HOseeker, there doesn't seem to be a single thing on the net about them. Does anyone here know anything about the company?
              > >
              > > Here are a few pics:
              > >
              > > http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09019.jpg
              > > http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09020.jpg
              > > http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee86/cheezfreek57/DSC09012.jpg
              > >
              > > -Eric
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15710 From: dennyanspach Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Kemtron detail parts
              Precision Scale (PSC) owns all of the Kemtron patterns, etc. and most are still in their catalog. Take a look, because i suspect the Athearn replacement stanchions may well be still very much available.

              Denny

              Denny S.  Anspach MD
              Sacramento





              Group: vintageHO Message: 15711 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Plastic coaling tower
              I dragged three more boxes of "stuff" home Christmas day.
              Got "all" the buildings...yeah, right.
              How in the world someone loses two parts of buildings I'll never know.
              Anyway, I think I have a Pola 704 coaling tower:
              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290329569039&ih=019&category=484&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

              Anybody got a junker, as on the lower building one side wall, and one end wall seem to be GONE, along with possibly the ladder/platform along the side of the lower building.
              Base is there, top bit (altho I am going to need to figure out what is missing to actually mount it up there), maybe thye chute on the track side is gone.

              It was BADLY glued together, which is actually a "plus" as it came apart easily, and most of the cheap glue either popped off or filed down.
              Next week or so I am going to start putting it back together, but I think I need the lower building in place first to get the uprights glued down properly.
              No instructions, yet, even though I have instructions for building not there.

              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15712 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
              Your description of what is there makes it sound like it was modeled on a
              D&RGW tower that has been done by several mfrs. Prototypes at Gunnison,
              Durango , and Chama (still there) The building below the tower was a
              machinery room for the hoist--which had a top house as well. If you can
              find a set of Campbell instructions they will show you all you need. The
              machinery bldg can be completed with Evergreen styrene and Grandt Line doors
              and windows. The top house is just a cover over the hoist sheaves--the hoist
              had two buckets--one on each side--with the hoist cables in the middle. The
              buckets sort of counterbalanced each other.

              If you can find a book on the Rio Grande--or the Cumbres & Toltec-- that
              shows the engine terminal at Chama--see if your tower looks like that one.
              Contact me if you need more info--
              glennk28
              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 1:47 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Plastic coaling tower

              > I dragged three more boxes of "stuff" home Christmas day.
              > Got "all" the buildings...yeah, right.
              > How in the world someone loses two parts of buildings I'll never know.
              > Anyway, I think I have a Pola 704 coaling tower:
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290329569039&ih=019&category=484&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
              >
              > Anybody got a junker, as on the lower building one side wall, and one end
              > wall seem to be GONE, along with possibly the ladder/platform along the
              > side of the lower building.
              > Base is there, top bit (altho I am going to need to figure out what is
              > missing to actually mount it up there), maybe thye chute on the track side
              > is gone.
              >
              > It was BADLY glued together, which is actually a "plus" as it came apart
              > easily, and most of the cheap glue either popped off or filed down.
              > Next week or so I am going to start putting it back together, but I think
              > I need the lower building in place first to get the uprights glued down
              > properly.
              > No instructions, yet, even though I have instructions for building not
              > there.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15713 From: Rick Jones Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: S. Soho & Co.
              On 12/27/2010 10:57 PM, Dale Smith wrote:
              > The widow of a friend recently asked me to try and sell some Los Angeles
              > Railway brass models made by this company, along with several Suydam
              > Pacific Electric cars. Before I do this, I would like to learn some
              > more about this company. So far I have seen very little available.
              > Though there is a Soho section on hoseeker.com, most of what is there is
              > about interurbans in general, except a 6 page flier, which at several
              > points drifts off to other manufacturers. Anyone know a little more
              > about this company?

              About all I can tell you is that I have a UP turbine made by them,
              which as I remember ran fairly nicely. Haven't had it out of the box and
              on rails for many years.
              I might be interested in the Suydam traction. I'm trying to get a
              modular traction group going here in the Houston area - Houston Area
              Traction Society (HATS). I started a list on Yahoo if anybody is interested.

              --

              Rick Jones

              A conscience is what hurts when all of your other parts feel
              great.
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15714 From: John Hagen Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Ohio Seamless Tube Car
              Attachments :

              So far, so good.

               

              Finally finished the script. Now the fun stuff. The logo and all the other lettering, most of which can be typed and then stretched, squashed or whatever to make it fit.

               

              The attachment shows the drawing from the article with the original lettering cleaned off and my newly drawn stuff on it. Above is the same artwork enlarged 4X.

               

              John Hagen

                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15715 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: S. Soho & Co.
              I think that Dr Stanley Soho was a dentist in the Los Angeles area--he got
              into the importing business. That;\'s what I can remember
              Glenn Joesten

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 3:38 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] S. Soho & Co.

              > On 12/27/2010 10:57 PM, Dale Smith wrote:
              >> The widow of a friend recently asked me to try and sell some Los Angeles
              >> Railway brass models made by this company, along with several Suydam
              >> Pacific Electric cars. Before I do this, I would like to learn some
              >> more about this company. So far I have seen very little available.
              >> Though there is a Soho section on hoseeker.com, most of what is there is
              >> about interurbans in general, except a 6 page flier, which at several
              >> points drifts off to other manufacturers. Anyone know a little more
              >> about this company?
              >
              > About all I can tell you is that I have a UP turbine made by them,
              > which as I remember ran fairly nicely. Haven't had it out of the box and
              > on rails for many years.
              > I might be interested in the Suydam traction. I'm trying to get a
              > modular traction group going here in the Houston area - Houston Area
              > Traction Society (HATS). I started a list on Yahoo if anybody is
              > interested.
              >
              > --
              >
              > Rick Jones
              >
              > A conscience is what hurts when all of your other parts feel
              > great.
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15716 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Ohio Seamless Tube Car [1 Attachment]
              WOW!, I am pretty impressed.  I can't wait for the rest.  I presume the plain type font shouldn't be a problem?
              Regards,
              Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC




              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: sprinthag@...
              Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 17:51:10 -0600
              Subject: [vintageHO] Ohio Seamless Tube Car [1 Attachment]

               
              [Attachment(s) from John Hagen included below]

              So far, so good.

               

              Finally finished the script. Now the fun stuff. The logo and all the other lettering, most of which can be typed and then stretched, squashed or whatever to make it fit.

               

              The attachment shows the drawing from the article with the original lettering cleaned off and my newly drawn stuff on it. Above is the same artwork enlarged 4X.

               

              John Hagen


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15717 From: Victor Bitleris Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
              It looks just like the Model Power Coaling tower, which I believe is a model of the Chama coaling tower and a knock off of the Campbell kit.  The Model Power kit can be purchased just about anywhere at pretty low cost.
              Regards, Vic Bitleris

              Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC




              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: idioticyahoo@...
              Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:47:25 +0000
              Subject: [vintageHO] Plastic coaling tower

               
              I dragged three more boxes of "stuff" home Christmas day.
              Got "all" the buildings...yeah, right.
              How in the world someone loses two parts of buildings I'll never know.
              Anyway, I think I have a Pola 704 coaling tower:
              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290329569039&ih=019&category=484&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

              Anybody got a junker, as on the lower building one side wall, and one end wall seem to be GONE, along with possibly the ladder/platform along the side of the lower building.
              Base is there, top bit (altho I am going to need to figure out what is missing to actually mount it up there), maybe thye chute on the track side is gone.

              It was BADLY glued together, which is actually a "plus" as it came apart easily, and most of the cheap glue either popped off or filed down.
              Next week or so I am going to start putting it back together, but I think I need the lower building in place first to get the uprights glued down properly.
              No instructions, yet, even though I have instructions for building not there.

              Dave


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15718 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
              TYCO, 1977-1981
              >
              >
              > It looks just like the Model Power Coaling tower, which I believe is a model of the Chama coaling tower and a knock off of the Campbell kit. The Model Power kit can be purchased just about anywhere at pretty low cost.
              > Regards, Vic Bitleris
              >
              > Vic Bitleris
              > Raleigh, NC
              >
              >
              >
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > From: idioticyahoo@...
              > Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:47:25 +0000
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Plastic coaling tower
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I dragged three more boxes of "stuff" home Christmas day.
              >
              > Got "all" the buildings...yeah, right.
              >
              > How in the world someone loses two parts of buildings I'll never know.
              >
              > Anyway, I think I have a Pola 704 coaling tower:
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290329569039&ih=019&category=484&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
              >
              >
              >
              > Anybody got a junker, as on the lower building one side wall, and one end wall seem to be GONE, along with possibly the ladder/platform along the side of the lower building.
              >
              > Base is there, top bit (altho I am going to need to figure out what is missing to actually mount it up there), maybe thye chute on the track side is gone.
              >
              >
              >
              > It was BADLY glued together, which is actually a "plus" as it came apart easily, and most of the cheap glue either popped off or filed down.
              >
              > Next week or so I am going to start putting it back together, but I think I need the lower building in place first to get the uprights glued down properly.
              >
              > No instructions, yet, even though I have instructions for building not there.
              >
              >
              >
              > Dave
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15719 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
              Well, I dug the bits out again tonight just to see if I could re-assemble it as much as possible (I hate loose parts rattling around), and found......TYCO.
              FINALLY found it here:
              http://hoseeker.net/tycoinformation/tycocatalog1981pg13.jpg

              #7786 coaling tower.
              I could make the parts, sort of, but looking to see if anyone has a broken or partial junker laying around.
              Here is what I know for sure:

              Bottom building, one end wall, one side wall.
              Have the doors and roof.
              Top building, lift shed, need the roof.
              Two of the buckets that fit into the slides in the back (shown at different heights in the photo).
              Is there a chute on the track side? I have the door.

              The three brown plastic cross bears across the back, but prototypically, I have no idea how the buckets would get past that center one!

              This isn't the end of the world, and being in the 1983 catalog, probably not exactly "vintage", but it is a building, and it would be kind of nice to get it back functional.

              Thanks.

              Dave

              >
              > It looks just like the Model Power Coaling tower, which I believe is a model of the Chama coaling tower and a knock off of the Campbell kit. The Model Power kit can be purchased just about anywhere at pretty low cost.
              > Regards, Vic Bitleris
              >
              > Vic Bitleris
              > Raleigh, NC
              >
              >
              >
              > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > From: idioticyahoo@...
              > Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:47:25 +0000
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Plastic coaling tower
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I dragged three more boxes of "stuff" home Christmas day.
              >
              > Got "all" the buildings...yeah, right.
              >
              > How in the world someone loses two parts of buildings I'll never know.
              >
              > Anyway, I think I have a Pola 704 coaling tower:
              >
              > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290329569039&ih=019&category=484&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
              >
              >
              >
              > Anybody got a junker, as on the lower building one side wall, and one end wall seem to be GONE, along with possibly the ladder/platform along the side of the lower building.
              >
              > Base is there, top bit (altho I am going to need to figure out what is missing to actually mount it up there), maybe thye chute on the track side is gone.
              >
              >
              >
              > It was BADLY glued together, which is actually a "plus" as it came apart easily, and most of the cheap glue either popped off or filed down.
              >
              > Next week or so I am going to start putting it back together, but I think I need the lower building in place first to get the uprights glued down properly.
              >
              > No instructions, yet, even though I have instructions for building not there.
              >
              >
              >
              > Dave
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15720 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
              Many Model Power (and AHM) kits were/are actually made by Pola, so it most
              likely IS the same one.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Victor Bitleris" <bitlerisvj@...>
              To: <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:50 PM
              Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Plastic coaling tower



              It looks just like the Model Power Coaling tower, which I believe is a model
              of the Chama coaling tower and a knock off of the Campbell kit. The Model
              Power kit can be purchased just about anywhere at pretty low cost.
              Regards, Vic Bitleris

              Vic Bitleris
              Raleigh, NC



              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: idioticyahoo@...
              Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:47:25 +0000
              Subject: [vintageHO] Plastic coaling tower




























              I dragged three more boxes of "stuff" home Christmas day.

              Got "all" the buildings...yeah, right.

              How in the world someone loses two parts of buildings I'll never know.

              Anyway, I think I have a Pola 704 coaling tower:

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290329569039&ih=019&category=484&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1



              Anybody got a junker, as on the lower building one side wall, and one end
              wall seem to be GONE, along with possibly the ladder/platform along the side
              of the lower building.

              Base is there, top bit (altho I am going to need to figure out what is
              missing to actually mount it up there), maybe thye chute on the track side
              is gone.



              It was BADLY glued together, which is actually a "plus" as it came apart
              easily, and most of the cheap glue either popped off or filed down.

              Next week or so I am going to start putting it back together, but I think I
              need the lower building in place first to get the uprights glued down
              properly.

              No instructions, yet, even though I have instructions for building not
              there.



              Dave
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15721 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 11:22 PM
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Plastic coaling tower


              > TYCO, 1977-1981

              Also actually manufactured by Pola. Many of these kits appeared in quite a
              few incarnations under a number of labels.

              >>
              >>
              >> It looks just like the Model Power Coaling tower, which I believe is a
              >> model of the Chama coaling tower and a knock off of the Campbell kit.
              >> The Model Power kit can be purchased just about anywhere at pretty low
              >> cost.
              >> Regards, Vic Bitleris
              >>
              >> Vic Bitleris
              >> Raleigh, NC

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15722 From: glenn476@4fast.net Date: 12/28/2010
              Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
              No door on the back side--that's where the coal delivery track is--the bin
              is behind the tower. The bucketsshould besimilar distance up and
              down--such that when one is at the top, the other is at the bottom.

              gj

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:17 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Plastic coaling tower

              >
              >
              > Well, I dug the bits out again tonight just to see if I could re-assemble
              > it as much as possible (I hate loose parts rattling around), and
              > found......TYCO.
              > FINALLY found it here:
              > http://hoseeker.net/tycoinformation/tycocatalog1981pg13.jpg
              >
              > #7786 coaling tower.
              > I could make the parts, sort of, but looking to see if anyone has a broken
              > or partial junker laying around.
              > Here is what I know for sure:
              >
              > Bottom building, one end wall, one side wall.
              > Have the doors and roof.
              > Top building, lift shed, need the roof.
              > Two of the buckets that fit into the slides in the back (shown at
              > different heights in the photo).
              > Is there a chute on the track side? I have the door.
              >
              > The three brown plastic cross bears across the back, but prototypically, I
              > have no idea how the buckets would get past that center one!
              >
              > This isn't the end of the world, and being in the 1983 catalog, probably
              > not exactly "vintage", but it is a building, and it would be kind of nice
              > to get it back functional.
              >
              > Thanks.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >>
              >> It looks just like the Model Power Coaling tower, which I believe is a
              >> model of the Chama coaling tower and a knock off of the Campbell kit.
              >> The Model Power kit can be purchased just about anywhere at pretty low
              >> cost.
              >> Regards, Vic Bitleris
              >>
              >> Vic Bitleris
              >> Raleigh, NC
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              >> From: idioticyahoo@...
              >> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:47:25 +0000
              >> Subject: [vintageHO] Plastic coaling tower
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> I dragged three more boxes of "stuff" home Christmas day.
              >>
              >> Got "all" the buildings...yeah, right.
              >>
              >> How in the world someone loses two parts of buildings I'll never know.
              >>
              >> Anyway, I think I have a Pola 704 coaling tower:
              >>
              >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290329569039&ih=019&category=484&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Anybody got a junker, as on the lower building one side wall, and one end
              >> wall seem to be GONE, along with possibly the ladder/platform along the
              >> side of the lower building.
              >>
              >> Base is there, top bit (altho I am going to need to figure out what is
              >> missing to actually mount it up there), maybe thye chute on the track
              >> side is gone.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> It was BADLY glued together, which is actually a "plus" as it came apart
              >> easily, and most of the cheap glue either popped off or filed down.
              >>
              >> Next week or so I am going to start putting it back together, but I think
              >> I need the lower building in place first to get the uprights glued down
              >> properly.
              >>
              >> No instructions, yet, even though I have instructions for building not
              >> there.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Dave
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15723 From: Gerold Eckl Date: 12/29/2010
              Subject: Re: S. Soho & Co.
              I am collecting Soho models for some time, think most of the info at HOseeker is from my files.

              Those LARy trolleys which were produced by SOHO standard gauge, as nobody was interested in narrow gauge ( as they should have been according to the prototypes) trolleys... so trucks had to be set further inward to clear platform steps.

              SOHO also imported a number of passenger cars, best known are the SP ( Sunset) streamlined types , but he also did cars from The Milwaukee C&O, PRR and others.

              a rather bizarre - and unconfirmed - story I was told long ago from a person from the LA area,  who sold me some brass trolleys: Mr. Soho had a gender transformation done late in his/ her? life, and continued to frequent railroad events in CA. Would be curious if there is any substance to this?

              Gerold
               

              I think that Dr Stanley Soho was a dentist in the Los Angeles area--he got
              into the importing business. That;\'s what I can remember
              Glenn Joesten

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 3:38 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] S. Soho & Co.

              > On 12/27/2010 10:57 PM, Dale Smith wrote:
              >> The widow of a friend recently asked me to try and sell some Los Angeles
              >> Railway brass models made by this company, along with several Suydam
              >> Pacific Electric cars. Before I do this, I would like to learn some
              >> more about this company. So far I have seen very little available.
              >> Though there is a Soho section on hoseeker.com, most of what is there is
              >> about interurbans in general, except a 6 page flier, which at several
              >> points drifts off to other manufacturers. Anyone know a little more
              >> about this company?
              >
              > About all I can tell you is that I have a UP turbine made by them,
              > which as I remember ran fairly nicely. Haven't had it out of the box and
              > on rails for many years.
              > I might be interested in the Suydam traction. I'm trying to get a
              > modular traction group going here in the Houston area - Houston Area
              > Traction Society (HATS). I started a list on Yahoo if anybody is
              > interested.
              >
              > --
              >
              > Rick Jones


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15724 From: trainsnwrcs Date: 12/29/2010
              Subject: Re: Plastic coaling tower
              Got it all together except missing bits, which prevents the mounting of the tower to the base.
              Also in the box was a Botch...errrr.....Bachmann Plasticville tower....what a difference.
              I like this AHM/POLA/TYCO one MUCH better.

              The reason I identified it as TYCO......when I cleaned the dust and rat droppings off the base (joke on the RD), it says TYCO kit on the bottom, which one could not see with cobwebs and dust prior.

              Dave


              > No door on the back side--that's where the coal delivery track is--the bin
              > is behind the tower. The bucketsshould besimilar distance up and
              > down--such that when one is at the top, the other is at the bottom.
              >
              > gj
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------
              > From: "trainsnwrcs" <idioticyahoo@...>
              > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:17 PM
              > To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Plastic coaling tower
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > Well, I dug the bits out again tonight just to see if I could re-assemble
              > > it as much as possible (I hate loose parts rattling around), and
              > > found......TYCO.
              > > FINALLY found it here:
              > > http://hoseeker.net/tycoinformation/tycocatalog1981pg13.jpg
              > >
              > > #7786 coaling tower.
              > > I could make the parts, sort of, but looking to see if anyone has a broken
              > > or partial junker laying around.
              > > Here is what I know for sure:
              > >
              > > Bottom building, one end wall, one side wall.
              > > Have the doors and roof.
              > > Top building, lift shed, need the roof.
              > > Two of the buckets that fit into the slides in the back (shown at
              > > different heights in the photo).
              > > Is there a chute on the track side? I have the door.
              > >
              > > The three brown plastic cross bears across the back, but prototypically, I
              > > have no idea how the buckets would get past that center one!
              > >
              > > This isn't the end of the world, and being in the 1983 catalog, probably
              > > not exactly "vintage", but it is a building, and it would be kind of nice
              > > to get it back functional.
              > >
              > > Thanks.
              > >
              > > Dave
              > >
              > >>
              > >> It looks just like the Model Power Coaling tower, which I believe is a
              > >> model of the Chama coaling tower and a knock off of the Campbell kit.
              > >> The Model Power kit can be purchased just about anywhere at pretty low
              > >> cost.
              > >> Regards, Vic Bitleris
              > >>
              > >> Vic Bitleris
              > >> Raleigh, NC
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              > >> From: idioticyahoo@
              > >> Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:47:25 +0000
              > >> Subject: [vintageHO] Plastic coaling tower
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> I dragged three more boxes of "stuff" home Christmas day.
              > >>
              > >> Got "all" the buildings...yeah, right.
              > >>
              > >> How in the world someone loses two parts of buildings I'll never know.
              > >>
              > >> Anyway, I think I have a Pola 704 coaling tower:
              > >>
              > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290329569039&ih=019&category=484&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Anybody got a junker, as on the lower building one side wall, and one end
              > >> wall seem to be GONE, along with possibly the ladder/platform along the
              > >> side of the lower building.
              > >>
              > >> Base is there, top bit (altho I am going to need to figure out what is
              > >> missing to actually mount it up there), maybe thye chute on the track
              > >> side is gone.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> It was BADLY glued together, which is actually a "plus" as it came apart
              > >> easily, and most of the cheap glue either popped off or filed down.
              > >>
              > >> Next week or so I am going to start putting it back together, but I think
              > >> I need the lower building in place first to get the uprights glued down
              > >> properly.
              > >>
              > >> No instructions, yet, even though I have instructions for building not
              > >> there.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Dave
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15725 From: jim heckard Date: 12/29/2010
              Subject: Red Ball Alco Switcher
               

               
               
                  A little while back I bought myself two HO engines as Christmas presents for myself and to add to my vintage collection. One was a Red Ball Alco Road Switcher . It was not in the best of shape but decent to start working on to reclaim. It was tarnished pretty bad so I used my " Twinkle " to clean it up. I then started repairing some of the cracked and misaligned soldered joints. I didn't feel like taking it all apart as the are a number of parts to the kit. The kit is a dummy but has a bracket on the frame that you can install a Lindsay motor which does not come with it. I have a number of these Lindsay motors but they are in already assembled  engines or in unbuilt and mint kits. I will have to search the internet for a motor for this engine although I have know problem with it staying a dummy in my collection. I added some of the smaller detail parts that are in the original kit that were in the O/B the engine came with. There were no plans especially to show you how to isolate trucks if ever powered so I will have to overcome that problem if I get a motor .( I'm pretty sure I do have the  free wheeling truck isolated. )  As for where the powered truck will be I had to use a wood block so I could attach that set of side frames for now.  I won't be painting it so the construction and material can be seen. All in all not a bad looking item.
               
                                                                                               Jim H
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15726 From: Don Dellmann Date: 12/29/2010
              Subject: Re: S. Soho & Co.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Gerold Eckl" <corv8@...>
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:31 AM
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] S. Soho & Co.


              >I am collecting Soho models for some time, think most of the info at
              > HOseeker is from my files.
              >
              > Those LARy trolleys which were produced by SOHO standard gauge, as
              > nobody was interested in narrow gauge ( as they should have been
              > according to the prototypes) trolleys... so trucks had to be set further
              > inward to clear platform steps.
              >
              > SOHO also imported a number of passenger cars, best known are the SP (
              > Sunset) streamlined types , but he also did cars from The Milwaukee C&O,
              > PRR and others.
              >
              > a rather bizarre - and unconfirmed - story I was told long ago from a
              > person from the LA area, who sold me some brass trolleys: Mr. Soho had
              > a gender transformation done late in his/ her? life, and continued to
              > frequent railroad events in CA. Would be curious if there is any
              > substance to this?
              >
              > Gerold
              >>
              >> I think that Dr Stanley Soho was a dentist in the Los Angeles area--he
              >> got
              >> into the importing business. That;\'s what I can remember
              >> Glenn Joesten

              I've heard of several prominent manufacturers that had SRS late in life.
              I'm told the Lady who owned Arbor Models was also a TS.
              You would be amazed how many TS/TG people there are out there. It's not all
              that bizarre.

              Don

              Don Dellmann
              don.dellmann@...
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/
              http://www.youtube.com/user/CreamCityTraction
              Owner
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenery
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15727 From: Dale Smith Date: 12/29/2010
              Subject: Re: S. Soho & Co.
              An interesting story and thanks for the information.  There is a site that has some information on the trucks being moved inward as well as other information.

              Here it is.    www.trolleyville.com/tv/school/lesson7_2/lesson7_2.doc

              Dale

              On 12/29/2010 1:31 AM, Gerold Eckl wrote:
               

              I am collecting Soho models for some time, think most of the info at HOseeker is from my files.

              Those LARy trolleys which were produced by SOHO standard gauge, as nobody was interested in narrow gauge ( as they should have been according to the prototypes) trolleys... so trucks had to be set further inward to clear platform steps.

              SOHO also imported a number of passenger cars, best known are the SP ( Sunset) streamlined types , but he also did cars from The Milwaukee C&O, PRR and others.

              a rather bizarre - and unconfirmed - story I was told long ago from a person from the LA area,  who sold me some brass trolleys: Mr. Soho had a gender transformation done late in his/ her? life, and continued to frequent railroad events in CA. Would be curious if there is any substance to this?

              Gerold

               

              I think that Dr Stanley Soho was a dentist in the Los Angeles area--he got
              into the importing business. That;\'s what I can remember
              Glenn Joesten

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Rick Jones" <r.t.jones@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 3:38 PM
              To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [vintageHO] S. Soho & Co.

              > On 12/27/2010 10:57 PM, Dale Smith wrote:
              >> The widow of a friend recently asked me to try and sell some Los Angeles
              >> Railway brass models made by this company, along with several Suydam
              >> Pacific Electric cars. Before I do this, I would like to learn some
              >> more about this company. So far I have seen very little available.
              >> Though there is a Soho section on hoseeker.com, most of what is there is
              >> about interurbans in general, except a 6 page flier, which at several
              >> points drifts off to other manufacturers. Anyone know a little more
              >> about this company?
              >
              > About all I can tell you is that I have a UP turbine made by them,
              > which as I remember ran fairly nicely. Haven't had it out of the box and
              > on rails for many years.
              > I might be interested in the Suydam traction. I'm trying to get a
              > modular traction group going here in the Houston area - Houston Area
              > Traction Society (HATS). I started a list on Yahoo if anybody is
              > interested.
              >
              > --
              >
              > Rick Jones


              Group: vintageHO Message: 15728 From: John Hagen Date: 12/29/2010
              Subject: OSTUCO Tube car
              Attachments :

              Latest progress report. The Varney version is on top (I think, can’t look at both at the same time). Was unaware of how many differences there are until I started actually trying to fit the 47 ft set to the Varney car. Not only is the places where the brakes for the ribs are but some of the lettering is different enough to require totally reshaping. The “T” for the word Tube” is the most obvious but there were several others.

               

              I am not sure about the angle of the “OSTUCO” parallelogram on the 47” version. I used to prototype photo as my pattern but that is very different than the drawing in the article. With only that one prototype photo to go on……. I may end up sort of splitting the difference.

               

              John Hagen

                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15729 From: RalphB Date: 12/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Arbour Models (was S. Soho & Co.)
              --- In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, Don Dellmann wrote:
              >
              > I'm told the Lady who owned Arbor Models was also a TS.
              -----------------------
              True. Born Homer Martin, he became Holme Martin. As the company was located in Central New York, I saw the gentleman/lady a few times at the annual train show sponsored by the Central NY Chapter, NRHS.

              And by the way, it was Arbour Models; not sure why the different spelling, but it's in the dictionary.

              Ralph B
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15730 From: Jim Waterman Date: 12/30/2010
              Subject: Re: Dean Freytag - a legend passes
              Dean Freitag was a giant in Model Railroading.

              An incredible modeller, great human being.

              Sad to see him pass. There will not be many like him in our hobby in the
              future.

              Jim Waterman
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15731 From: jim heckard Date: 12/31/2010
              Subject: Some Conover Progress
              Attachments :
               

               
               
                        While I wait for some parts to come I have made some small progress on my Conover S-1 project. I was able to add the sand dome pipes both sides, add the 2 air compressors and piping
               
                   I had a hard time adding the two original air compressors first because they were poorly cast and I even had to add the bottom lip on one, second since they had two different castings as far as the mounting edges being in different positions on the back. Trying to use the cast on boiler brackets to match to the air compressor parts while keeping the tops level with the walkways and the spacing even ( as per the Conover drawings ) was a real pain. Remember nothing pre drilled and no instruction with measurements or how to mount. At least now that they are on and solid I can file them to shape easier then holding the small parts in my hand. It will take a little time due to limited space and the size of the area to be done. However with both exactly the same the effect will be better.
               
                                                                           Jim H 
               
                
                @@attachment@@
              Group: vintageHO Message: 15732 From: Richard White Date: 12/31/2010
              Subject: Re: Some Conover Progress [1 Attachment]
              Jim- I tremendously enjoy seeing your progress on the Conover. What a challenge to build this loco!  -Richard White 

              To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com
              From: jimheck@...
              Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 15:01:38 -0500
              Subject: [vintageHO] Some Conover Progress [1 Attachment]

               
              [Attachment(s) from jim heckard included below]
               

               
               
                        While I wait for some parts to come I have made some small progress on my Conover S-1 project. I was able to add the sand dome pipes both sides, add the 2 air compressors and piping
               
                   I had a hard time adding the two original air compressors first because they were poorly cast and I even had to add the bottom lip on one, second since they had two different castings as far as the mounting edges being in different positions on the back. Trying to use the cast on boiler brackets to match to the air compressor parts while keeping the tops level with the walkways and the spacing even ( as per the Conover drawings ) was a real pain. Remember nothing pre drilled and no instruction with measurements or how to mount. At least now that they are on and solid I can file them to shape easier then holding the small parts in my hand. It will take a little time due to limited space and the size of the area to be done. However with both exactly the same the effect will be better.
               
                                                                           Jim H